Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1329

 1                           Monday, 8 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  The witness -- Your Honour, before I turn over

 8     this witness for cross, may I just take --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone for the

10     counsel.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  It's on but it's not working.  The green light is

12     flashing.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have a loud voice so maybe my voice--

14             THE INTERPRETER:  No microphones are working.

15             MR. GROOME:  -- will be picked up.  The microphones are out on

16     the Prosecution side of the table.  When we press them we get a flashing

17     green light but with the red light indicating the microphone is on but

18     they're not working.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Maybe they'll return when you're ready to

20     re-examine.  But yes.

21             MS. SARTORIO:  I failed to admit one of the exhibits that was

22     admitted in the Vasiljevic case through the transcript.  It was -- it's

23     our 65 ter number 91 and it was Exhibit number 66 in the Vasiljevic case.

24     I would just like that to be admitted along with the transcripts since

25     this is a --

Page 1330

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is not working so we cannot

 2     interpret.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And before we begin the court deputy also has an

 6     announcement to make.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  I would like to make a correction to Friday's --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the registrar.  The interpreters

 9     can't interpret if they can't hear the speakers.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  I would like to make a correction for Friday's

11     transcript.  Exhibit P80 admitted under seal, the pseudonym sheet for the

12     witness, will become Exhibit P84 under seal.  And 65 ter number 91 will

13     become Exhibit P85.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So, Mr. Alarid, your turn to cross-examine.

15                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-18 [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             MR. ALARID:  And I still don't have a microphone, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There seems to be a technical problem.  We need

19     a break of five minutes, so we'll just stay here.  I think we should just

20     stay for five minutes and exercise some patience.  It's now working.

21             MR. ALARID:  I believe mine's on, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Begin.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

24        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. VG-18.  I apologise that we weren't able to

25     get to you on Friday and I know that it's hard for you probably to stay

Page 1331

 1     here away from your home and family for this long, especially under such

 2     stressful circumstances, and I apologise for keeping you.

 3             We left a little early on Friday because this was so stressful

 4     for you.  Are you okay today?  And, ma'am, I see that you're nodding, but

 5     I don't think -- we do need to speak in the microphone for the

 6     interpreter if we could.

 7        A.   I'll stick it out.

 8        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  Thank you.  I appreciate your patience and

 9     your strength with this.

10             Now, at first I'd like to question you about your earliest

11     statements that you gave after this incident.  Can we talk about that

12     first?

13        A.   Very well.

14        Q.   Now, there's -- in our research in all the documents that the

15     Prosecution has given us, they gave us a statement that did not bear your

16     signature in any way, but it was published in Naser Oric's book related

17     to the genocide in Visegrad.  Have you ever seen this book or heard of

18     this book?

19        A.   I don't know about that.  Wherever -- whatever doesn't bear my

20     signature I will not discuss that.  I don't know.

21        Q.   And that's fair enough, ma'am.  I just note that it had a date of

22     interviews taken regarding the fire at Pionirska Street as 11 September

23     1992, and I just wonder if you remember being questioned about this

24     tragedy as early as September of that year.

25        A.   I don't know whether there was anyone from Srebrenica.  I don't

Page 1332

 1     remember.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   Now, you do recall giving a statement in the 17th of May, 1993,

 3     to the security services in Tuzla?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what -- how did it come to be that you would give a statement

 6     as a witness to this crime?

 7        A.   I got out of Srebrenica as an infirm person.  I was exhausted.

 8     It was in Banovici that they called me up, and I told them the story

 9     about how I got there and where I got there from.  I told them that I was

10     so exhausted when I reached Banovici that I was unable to get off the

11     truck myself.  That's how it was.  And they called those other people to

12     ask me about that story, though I was too exhausted to talk much.

13        Q.   How long were you able to speak with them when you spoke with

14     these investigators in 1993?  May 17th, to be specific.

15        A.   Half an hour to an hour.  I don't know exactly.  I only gave them

16     the story -- an outline of the story, I was so exhausted.  I don't know.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please approach the

18     microphones, please.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   Ma'am, you need to sit closer to the microphone.  The interpreter

21     is having a hard time hearing you.

22             Now, in your statement of 1993, you started out by speaking about

23     how the situation got worse and how it got started.  Do you remember

24     that?

25        A.   I remember everything.  I will stop remembering only when I die.

Page 1333

 1     That was where my life ended.  My family and I no longer are alive, and I

 2     will tell you everything I know.

 3        Q.   For how many generations did your family live in Koritnik?

 4        A.   I don't understand.  Can you please explain your question.  How

 5     many generations?  I got married into -- into that village.  I didn't

 6     live there before.  I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly.

 7        Q.   Well -- and a family name of the victims was many of the same

 8     family name, the Kurspahic family, and maybe that's what I meant in terms

 9     of how many generations that family had been there.  Yes.

10        A.   Oh, that.  I understand.  I understand.  There were two, in my

11     household there were three, five, four.  I only know that in the

12     Memisevic household there were two.  And there was one Kurspahic who only

13     lived with his wife.  Otherwise, the families numbered four, five, six

14     members.  Two families had a home in Visegrad, and they went to join

15     their children over there earlier on and they survived.  Other families

16     that resided in the village are no longer among the living.

17        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  And I'm going to try and not interrupt you,

18     but we have to have a question and answer time, okay?  So would it be

19     fair to say that the Kurspahic family had lived there for many, many

20     years going back several generations?

21        A.   Well, yes, yes.  For instance, my grand grandfather had five

22     sons, and they all had houses in the neighbourhood, yes.

23        Q.   And I noticed that in your first statement you noted that there

24     were small villages or hamlets around your village, including a village

25     called Gavrilovici.

Page 1334

 1        A.   Our village was called Koritnik, and the Serb part of the village

 2     was also called Koritnik.  They were our neighbours.  We lived together.

 3        Q.   So these -- all these names are just neighbourhoods or little

 4     areas in the same village, to understand you?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was called Koritnik, and Serbs and Muslims lived there.

 6     There is Ubava, Greben, Prelovo.  These are villages a bit further off.

 7     In our village Muslims and Serbs lived together side by side.

 8        Q.   And would it be fair to say that you believe that the surrounding

 9     villages, the Serbians received their ammunition and weapons from the JNA

10     when they were in town?

11        A.   Yes.  The Uzice Corps, yes.

12        Q.   And at the same time the Uzice Corps took away the most basic

13     weapons of your family members and your people, even to hunt and feed

14     themselves?

15        A.   Everything had been taken from us, but not many had weapons.

16     Maybe two or three men had hunting rifles.  Had we known that they would

17     attack us, we would have tried and obtained weapons.  As it was, we did

18     not.  We did not think we had any need for them.

19        Q.   Because you and your people lived a simple life of farming and

20     taking care of your families?

21        A.   Farm work.  My husband spent some five years in Austria on his

22     own.  I stayed behind with children.  We had fertile land, and together

23     with the Visegrad cooperative we had cows.  I managed to earn my living

24     and school my children based on the milk the cows yielded.

25        Q.   Now, in your statement of 1993, you indicated that your husband

Page 1335

 1     saw your neighbour Dusan Grujic's cellar packed with ammunition and

 2     rockets and grenades and other ammunition?

 3        A.   Gavrilovic.

 4        Q.   And is that Dragomir?

 5        A.   That house was closest to ours.  He went over to Dusan's and was

 6     able to see that.  They were hiding it in the other room.  Milana must

 7     have entered the room and opened the door, and he saw that a corner of

 8     the room had been full of arms.  In the evening they brought over a small

 9     TAM, and we could hear them load some of the weapons at night.

10        Q.   And isn't it true that it was the SDS party that started the

11     extremism against Muslims?

12        A.   Not against us.  I don't want to go into politics.  As far as our

13     Serbs were concerned, they did tell us that we had to leave, but it was

14     not their own initiative.  Dragomir did come and threaten, but he did not

15     have a say-so.  He was on the police force, but he wasn't the one issuing

16     orders.

17             As far as my neighbours are concerned and my family's concerned,

18     we were not mistreated.  They only came on one occasion and told us that

19     we were supposed to surrender weapons or else be killed.  I said that we

20     didn't have weapons.  But it was just him.  He was the one who came

21     asking for the weapons.  Others did not mistreat me or my family.  I

22     cannot speak for the rest of the village though.  I avoided attending any

23     meetings, and I avoided being asked questions.  I wanted to protect my

24     children.  (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 1336

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             As for this particular individual in terms of somebody coming

 8     over to mistreat us, nothing of the sort happened.

 9        Q.   Now, isn't it true that Drago was a member of the Crisis Stab?

10        A.   I didn't know anything about that.  I didn't know about

11     such-and-such person being of that sort or another, of this ilk or

12     another.  I didn't know of the SDS, of the staffs.  I wasn't interested

13     in anything.  They -- I didn't benefit from their existence in any way.

14     I'm not a politician.

15        Q.   But in your 1993 statement you did talk about the politics, the

16     SDS, and the Crisis Stab, and you --

17        A.   Well, fine.  Of course, the whole world knew that there were

18     these parties, the SDA and SDS, that they were nationalist.  If I did say

19     that they were nationalist, I didn't mean that I experienced that.  I

20     lived on my homestead and was not interested in them.  Even if it's

21     called the Serb Republic nowadays, I still go to see my house in

22     Visegrad.  I'm not interested in that.

23        Q.   And another police officer was involved in removing you from your

24     home, and that was Ilija Gavrilovic?

25        A.   Well, he may have been there.  I heard stories to that effect.

Page 1337

 1     But he didn't tell me that I should leave.  There was only one Radomir

 2     Djuric who came to visit us and tell us that we ought to leave.  I don't

 3     know if he was on the military police or not.

 4             Ilija, on the other hand, did not tell me anything.  I can only

 5     speak for myself and my child.  I do not want to impute anything to

 6     anyone that I am not certain of.

 7        Q.   And your village was attacked in very early April by the

 8     Gavrilovics and other people?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Tell us about that.

11        A.   Yes.  I know about that.  I went over to Dusan's, to his garage

12     to where his son lived, and that's where I spent the night because I did

13     not dare to sleep at home.  My husband slept at our house, and in the

14     morning he came over and said, "Let's get away.  All of them have left.

15     There are no Serbs around.  They are about to attack us.  Let us get out

16     of the village.  They could have killed last night but they didn't, so we

17     should leave."

18             As I left down toward the Drina I heard shots fired upon our

19     village.  We fled across the Drina and into a forest where we hid.  I

20     left the keys to my home to my neighbours, and asked them to tend my

21     livestock.

22        Q.   And it was in between this attack by these people on your village

23     and the tragedy with the fire that the Uzice Corps came into town.  Isn't

24     that true?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 1338

 1        Q.   And do you remember being herded into the football stadium to

 2     hear from a General Jovanovic?

 3        A.   Everything.  I remember everything.  I remember that Sepo came

 4     over.  He was talking over a megaphone telling us that we could go to

 5     Visegrad and beyond if we wanted to.  My husband was with me.  We had

 6     spent the night in the forest, and as we got out of the forest we came

 7     across an army.  It was the Uzice Corps.  They escorted us to the station

 8     in Visegrad.

 9        Q.   And isn't it true that General Jovanovic told the crowd of

10     Muslims that the White Eagles were under his control?

11        A.   Well, of course he did.  There were a lot of people gathered

12     there.  You couldn't even hear well everything that he was saying because

13     of the crowd.  He sent people around to go and search for those who were

14     hiding, and then he noticed us and got down and approached us to see what

15     had become of us.

16        Q.   And isn't it true that you noticed White Eagles around the

17     stadium?

18        A.   They were ordinary people.  I don't know what they were called.

19     They were just regular soldiers with multicoloured uniforms.  What they

20     were called, the White Eagles or the Uzice Corps, I don't know.  They

21     were an army.

22        Q.   And isn't it true that you heard from people coming to your

23     village that even as the Uzice Corps was in town, the White Eagles were

24     taking the young men, the young Muslim men, and making them gone missing?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.  From my village, and I can list them even now.  They

Page 1339

 1     were men aged 30, Hidajet Kurspahic, Osman Kurspahic, Fikret Kurspahic.

 2     He was a soldier in Belgrade.  Omer Kurspahic and his son Almir.  He may

 3     have been 12 years of age at the time.  They all went missing and their

 4     fate is still unknown, including this child aged 13.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like to take you forward a little bit to around the 12th

 6     of June, 1992.  Do you remember a Serbian police officer named Radomir

 7     Djuric?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Was he the first policeman to come to your town and tell you you

10     had to leave?

11        A.   Well, some went to attend the negotiations in Prelovo.  There was

12     one person there we called Micun.  I don't know what his family name is.

13     Lipovac, I believe.  He was the first one to come over with a couple of

14     soldiers wearing that Seselj's cockade on his head and asked, "Where is

15     your husband?"  I told him that he had gone to tend the cattle.  And then

16     I asked him, "Why do you need him -- what do you need him for?"  Answer,

17     "I need him because I want him to go to Prelovo."  I offered to go

18     instead and he said no, call Osman Kurspahic and Nedjo Memisevic.  I want

19     them to go there because I have the time to.

20             I called the two men and they went to the local commune in

21     Prelovo.

22        Q.   Now, also is that when Dragomir Gavrilovic came to your home as

23     well, the next -- was that the next day?  He had asked about a

24     machine-gun and your husband's whereabouts, and he wanted to know where

25     the gun was.

Page 1340

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13        Q.   Okay.  And then -- so when was it that Ilija and Dragomir came to

14     the home and said everyone had to leave on the buses?  Was that on the

15     13th?

16        A.   Well, Radomir came from Loznica and said that we had to leave on

17     Sunday at 7.00, that we had to be by the bus station to go to Kladanj or

18     Olovo and that we were to take some food with us and two changes of

19     clothes and food for a day or whatever.

20        Q.   And when you were walking from your homes to Visegrad, did you

21     encounter other police officers to escort you on your way?

22        A.   Well, without your question can I say this first:  When we set

23     off my husband didn't want to go with us because he knew -- in the

24     previous war his father told him that if you took to the woods you

25     survived.  So he didn't want to go with us.  We went to Dusan and told

Page 1341

 1     him to tell him to go down with the others to the meeting point, and so

 2     that's how we left, and he set off with us.  He accompanied us to Greben,

 3     to the ridge, but there were no buses so we had to wait there until

 4     10.00, and then he went to call Micun, and Micun took us to Banja.  I

 5     don't know.  Or Sase.

 6             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honours, my case manager indicated there

 7     was a point in there where she used her name.  There may need to be a

 8     redaction.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, let that be done.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   And what was the first time you saw Mitar Vasiljevic?

12        A.   Well, I went with my children, of course, with my daughter.  She

13     worked nearby, and so I went to the new hotel.  But I didn't know him.  I

14     didn't know him.  I don't remember him.  I know his -- Milojkas, he

15     worked with us, but I didn't know him until he came up there where we

16     were supposed to be put up.

17        Q.   Now, in your statement of 1993 you made several corrections of

18     which we talked about -- or the Prosecutor talked about at the beginning

19     of Friday.  What occurred in between 1998 and giving your testimony in

20     2001 that would cause you to remember things or clarify things?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Ms. Sartorio.

22             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I didn't ask this witness anything

23     about the 1993 statement, only about her statement to the ICTY

24     Prosecutors, so I think Mr. Alarid --

25             MR. ALARID:  I'm simply looking at the proofing report filed on

Page 1342

 1     Friday in this case and it notes that there were some corrections to the

 2     17 May 1993 statement.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, okay, but your question was in your

 4     statement of 1998 you made several corrections that the Prosecutor talked

 5     about at the beginning of Friday, so I'm --

 6             MR. ALARID:  I'm sorry.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Okay.

 8             MR. ALARID:  I misspoke.

 9        Q.   I would like to focus first on your 1993 statement.  You made

10     several corrections, having read that.  Did you read your statement all

11     the way through, the 1993 one?

12        A.   Well, yes.  I don't know.  I mix up Milan and whatever.  Maybe I

13     did.  But as far as adding more things, well, I didn't add anything if I

14     didn't leave anything out.  Maybe I mixed their names up, because I don't

15     know who's who even now.  So I might have mixed the two of them up.  I

16    didn't know them from earlier on, and I hadn't seen them, so maybe I mixed

17     that up.  They introduced themselves and said Mitar Vasiljevic and so on.

18        Q.   Well, in just reading the statement of 1993, I noted that you

19     never mentioned Milan Lukic in the entire statement when I first read it.

20        A.   Well- that’s- I give that- I mean- I apologise.  Perhaps that is

21     the case- that I- I don’t know.  Because- because always- your wits are

22     not- you get nervous- that’s perhaps how I…  But to my mind, Milan was a

23     bit stouter than Sredoje- I don’t know.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have lost the interpretation.

25             MR. ALARID:  Well, can we get the --

Page 1343

 1        Q.   Ma'am, you're going to need to repeat yourself only because the

 2     interpretation did not come through, and so I could not hear your answer.

 3     Can you -- can you say why you had made that mistake?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic?

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, unfortunately we haven't got translation

 6     in B/C/S now.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Oh, I see.  Yes.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Now we have it in B/C/S. Thank you.  I apologise for

 9     interrupting.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   And, ma'am, what I had basically asked you is did you realise

12    that you never mentioned Milan Lukic in the entire statement that you gave

13     in 1993, and I think you gave an explanation as to why that was the case.

14        A.   Well, I don't know.  Really, I- I’m wondering myself how come I

15     didn't mention him, but the person doing the interpretation got something

16     wrong and the one questioning me.  I don’t really know how come

17     everything I said was about Sredoje and that’s not how it was.  So I

18     apologise, if you can accept that, and if not, well, I don’t know.

19     Because I am not always- sometimes I’m a bit nervous, somebody comes to

20     ask me something and- and I am all- it cannot come back and I have to do

21     it.  That’s how it is maybe, I don’t know.

22        Q.   And in your proofing statement you now made the change Mitar to

23     Milan.

24        A.   I don't know about Mitar.  I didn't see Mitar any more.  He was

25     there once, but maybe he was with them, but I don't know.  I didn't see

Page 1344

 1     him.  I don't really know.

 2        Q.   When did you stop seeing Mitar that evening?

 3        A.   Maybe I said who came.  That might have been what I said in my

 4     statement.

 5        Q.   Now, in -- also you made a correction that originally you thought

 6     the person you knew as Sredoje came with a brother, and now you said in

 7     your proofing statement that you know they are not brothers.  How did you

 8     come to that realisation between when you had testified earlier, given

 9     statements earlier, to today?

10        A.   Well, this is how I changed my statement:  I perhaps thought that

11     they were brothers because they were both Lukic.  That's why I thought

12     they were brothers.  They were together.

13             Now, later on I learnt that they weren't brothers and that they

14     were cousins.  Just like brothers, in fact, first cousins.

15        Q.   How did you -- who told you that?

16        A.   Well, I don't really know who told me.  How should I know?  I

17     heard it said, but I don't know.  I can't say exactly who I heard it

18     from.  So can I first say -- if I may be allowed to say first that

19     Sredoje's wife worked with my daughter, so she knows.  So she found it

20     strange.  They worked together, I know that, so I can state that now,

21     here and now.

22        Q.   But on the night you gave -- or the time you gave the statement

23     in 1993, you believed they were brothers, even if you were mistaken?

24     And --

25        A.   Well, all right.

Page 1345

 1        Q.   And you indicated that they're --

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   That the brother had a skinny cropped beard and now you say his

 4     nickname was Lalco.  But it sounded in the statement like one of the

 5     people you thought to be Lukic had a beard.

 6        A.   No.  This one, the one that was at Greben, at the ridge, had a

 7     small beard.  I didn't say that the others had beards, neither one of

 8     them.  One of them had this pointy face and chin, but as for the others,

 9     I didn't say that about them.  That's a mistake.

10        Q.   Still, were they both clean-shaven then?

11        A.   As far as I saw, yes, they did.  How other people saw them, I

12     don't know.  I didn't really look at them.  I was just looking at my

13     child and seeing to my own affairs.  I didn't look round at anyone else.

14        Q.   And you also corrected it to say that neither Lukic ordered women

15     to strip naked.  That was someone else.

16        A.   Now, whether anybody ordered it or not, they said that we would

17     go into the room two by two, and Milan said that we would go into their

18     room and that they would strip us naked, take our clothes off.  Now,

19     whether he ordered it or not, I don't know.  When I was in the room and

20     took my clothes off, this young man -- well, it wasn't either one of

21     these.  Now, whether they came in later on or not, I don't know.  All I

22     do know is what I told you in the statement, what I went through and

23     experienced.

24        Q.   Now, ma'am, when you say it was not either one of these two, is

25     that not either one of these two gentlemen sitting in court today?

Page 1346

 1        A.   Well, yes, yes, yes.  When I was there, when I was over there

 2     inside that room and when I came out, I came out in a terrible state.  I

 3     heard my child crying on the other side of the door, and I don't remember

 4     anything.  I don't know who dragged me in or dragged me out or whatever.

 5             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, I'm going to move on but so I

 6     don't forget, I would like to tender the statement of this witness given

 7     in 17 May 1993, which has been uploaded as 1D10-0417, and the B/C/S

 8     version has been uploaded as 1D10-0425.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as 1D33 under seal, Your Honours.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Now, you then next gave a statement in the 17th of January, 1995.

14     Do you remember that?  Do you remember that, ma'am?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. ALARID:  And there's a -- I apologise, Your Honour.  On the

17     B/C/S version, of course the one signed by the witness, it's on the 27th

18     of January, whereas the English translation has the 17th of January, and

19     that must be a typographical error.

20        Q.   Now, ma'am, did you have an opportunity to read your 1995

21     statement in advance of your testimony as well?

22        A.   Yes.  Why should I read it when I know everything, but yes, I did

23     read it.

24        Q.   Well, I mean would it be fair to say that you memory should be

25     better closer to the incident that you were reporting on than, of course,

Page 1347

 1     several years later?

 2        A.   I'll answer your question.  I know everything.  Yes, everything.

 3        Q.   Now, in your 1995 statement you stated that Dragomir Gavrilovic

 4     also came to your village and threatened to kill you, and in that

 5     statement you say that Milan Lukic was there and Sredoje Lukic?

 6        A.   No, no.  Who said that?  No, I never saw these people in my

 7     village ever.  No, I didn't say that, no.

 8        Q.   And I apologise, ma'am.  I really only meant Dragomir Gavrilovic

 9     from your village is now at the scene of the fire in your 1995 statement.

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I think if -- if counsel is going to

11     be questioning the witness about her prior statements perhaps he should

12     put them up on the screen and let her see the statement.

13             MR. ALARID:  Certainly.  Could we call up what's been uploaded as

14     1D10-0432, and the B/C/S version is 1D10-0436.  And I'm going to go to

15     page 3 of the English version, focusing on the third paragraph.  And it's

16     also going to be page 3 of the B/C/S version, second paragraph.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  While this is coming on the screen I would just

18     ask the Court to ask Defence counsel to please put this in context of

19     date because the date is not mentioned on this page, if he would.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid, do that.

21             MR. ALARID:  Well, the reference from page 2 is:  "The following

22     day, 14 June 1994."

23        Q.   And I'd like you to look down at your statement.  I know it's a

24     little bit fuzzy from the age, but at the paragraph where it says "2300"

25     at the beginning of the first sentence.  And I see Dragomir Gavrilovic's

Page 1348

 1     name about three or four sentences down.

 2             Have you had -- have you had a chance to read that?

 3        A.   Well, yes.  Go ahead and ask your questions.

 4        Q.   Now, isn't it true that the electricity was out in the Memic

 5     house?  There was no electricity or lights?

 6        A.   There was some electricity from the other houses, because it was

 7     one house next to another.  So you could see.  But I don't know, inside,

 8     no, there wasn't.  Well, I don't know.  No, there wasn't.

 9        Q.   And the sentence starts out with someone told you basically to

10     leave your things and you could pick them up in the morning, and you

11     said, "Since it was dark I could not see the face of this man, but I

12     recognised the voices as those of Sredoje Lukic, who was in the company

13     of Milan Lukic and Dragomir Gavrilovic, who earlier in the village had

14     threatened to kill us."

15        A.   Well, yes, yes.  When they came, that person -- well, it was one

16     of the two.  I didn't look.  I can't tell you the details.  There was

17     general panic and the house was full, full of us people.  So I just

18     looked -- took care of my child.  I didn't look around.  But I heard from

19     others, and what I saw was when somebody in uniform came to the door, and

20     in the morning when they took the money and gold, judging by the voice,

21     but I wasn't close to see -- close by to say -- and I didn't say Dragomir

22     Gavrilovic.  Well, he didn't come to the house.  He was down there,

23     Dragomir Gavrilovic.  He wasn't in the house.  I don't exclude the

24     possibility of him being down there.

25        Q.   And down there, down where, ma'am?

Page 1349

 1        A.   Where they said we had to go to Adem Omeragic's house.

 2        Q.   Now you say there was a man at the door in a uniform.  Can you

 3     describe the uniform?

 4        A.   It was a camouflage uniform, I think, but I really don't know, I

 5     can't say for sure.  There were a lot of people and I didn't look around.

 6     I wasn't interested in uniforms, so don't bother me with that kind of

 7     questioning.

 8        Q.   How much --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, the Prosecution had an hour and 15

10     minutes, and that period of time will be what is allotted to you, and it

11     will be up at 1.45 when we take the break.

12             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   And, ma'am, did you -- did you notice what Mitar Vasiljevic was

14     wearing that day?

15        A.   Yes, I did.  I did.  I saw him arrive when we were there in front

16     of the house.  He had a coat of some kind, a black one, and a hat, and a

17     feather in his hat.  I didn't notice anything else.  I didn't really

18     look, to tell you the truth.

19        Q.   And the person that you believed to be Milan Lukic, what was he

20     wearing?  Because -- because you'd never met him before that night;

21     correct?

22        A.   On that day Mitar Vasiljevic put us up -- put us there.  We

23     didn't see him, but when he came at 5.00 to take up the money and the

24     gold, before that time, before the time you just mentioned.

25        Q.   And let's go to 5.00, then, and other people arrived.  Can you

Page 1350

 1     tell me what they are wearing?

 2        A.   Well, yes, yes.  They came then, and then they came to tell us to

 3     go down to that other house.  You keep asking me that.

 4        Q.   No, ma'am.  I just want you to go into your memory and describe

 5     to me what these men were wearing.  Now, you've explained Mitar

 6     Vasiljevic.  Now let's move on with other people.

 7        A.   The ones that came had automatics, nothing else.  What else would

 8     they have?  I didn't see anything else.

 9        Q.   What kind of clothes did they have had on?  And were they wearing

10     different clothes or were they wearing all the same clothes?

11        A.   The two of them were wearing the same, but Mitar Vasiljevic

12     wasn't wearing a uniform at all.

13        Q.   And do you still assert that Mitar Vasiljevic was there at 11.00

14     or midnight the night of the fire?

15        A.   Well, they can say that.  They didn't know we were there until

16     somebody told them.  I never saw these guys, these young guys either on

17     the way or anything.  So either Dragomir Gavrilovic told them, or

18     Vasiljevic told them, but --

19        Q.   And these guys, what were they wearing?  How many of them were

20     there?

21        A.   The one that came to the door, of course he was in uniform.  It

22     was probably one of the two of them, whether it was Milan or Sredoje.

23     Maybe I would know if I looked at them, but I didn't look at them, of

24     course because I was busy waking up my child, and I had problems with my

25     child who was ill.  But judging by the voice, I recognised.

Page 1351

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you.

 2             MR. ALARID:

 3        Q.   Is it possible that different men or more men came than were

 4     there earlier in the night when you were humiliated?

 5        A.   They came -- others came and took people off to dig trenches, the

 6     victims.  Four of our menfolk went, but they returned as well.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  To dig graves.  Interpreter's correction, to

 8     dig graves.

 9             MR. ALARID:

10        Q.   I'm more interested in the soldiers that came around midnight and

11     asked you to move from one house to the other.  I'm more interested in

12     how many came, how many, and what they were wearing.

13        A.   I've just told you.  There was one person in uniform.  I saw

14     that, but I know nothing more.  Judging by the voices, I thought it was

15     either Milan or Sredoje.  Let's say Milan, that they had come.  Now, how

16     many of them there were outside, I don't know, because only one of them

17     came in.  I'm sure there were more of them outside because you could hear

18     them talking and laughing.

19             MR. ALARID:  At this time, Your Honour, I would like to introduce

20     the January 1995 statements both in B/C/S and English that have already

21     been identified.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  They will be admitted as 1D34 under seal, Your

24     Honours.

25             MR. ALARID:

Page 1352

 1        Q.   And then the next time you gave a statement was the 4th of

 2     February in 1998, and that was to the International Criminal Tribunal.

 3     Do you remember that statement?

 4        A.   I do, yes.

 5        Q.   And do you recall how you came to be asked to give a statement

 6     for the international court?  Because clearly you were giving statements

 7     to your local authorities before, but now you're dealing with the

 8     international authorities.

 9        A.   I don't remember, truth to tell.  I do remember giving

10     statements.  I may have left something out or it can be corrected.  I

11     don't know.

12        Q.   Now, you did not correct the part of your 1998 statement that

13     said that you saw many White Eagles there at the stadium, and you stated

14     in there that you believed that the White Eagles and the Uzice Corps were

15     the same unit.  Isn't that true?

16        A.   I don't know if they were the same unit or not.  How should I

17     know who the White Eagles or the Uzice Corps were?  I only knew that they

18     were an army.  Where they had come from, if they were Serbs -- please

19     don't go on bothering me with these questions.

20        Q.   I hope to --

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll just ask you to be patient, Witness, and

22     we'll finish with your evidence shortly.

23             MR. ALARID:

24        Q.   And, yes, ma'am, I'm only going to ask you a few more questions,

25     okay?

Page 1353

 1             Now, in the proofing notes that were filed with this case, in

 2     your statement originally you stated that Milan Lukic was about 35 years

 3     old.  That is what she thought at the time.

 4             Was the age of Milan Lukic discussed in the proofing session?

 5        A.   I don't know.  By God I don't know.  What I said about the age

 6     that he had, I stand by that.  I probably judged his age by what I saw,

 7     on the basis of his appearance at the time.  This is something that I

 8     said, and they might have asked me to give his age roughly, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Now, the person that you believed to be Milan Lukic, can you tell

10     me what he was wearing?

11        A.   Just as every other soldier.  He was no different from others.

12     He had boots on.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us hear Mr. Cepic.

14             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise for interrupting but we missed something

15     in the transcript.  Page 24, line 24.  The witness explained that she

16     didn't know the age of Sredoje Lukic.  We can clarify with additional

17     questions.

18             MR. ALARID:  I'll clarify if you'd like, Djuro, because that was

19     my next question.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, go ahead.

21             MR. ALARID:

22        Q.   And, ma'am, in your statement the person that you had believed to

23     be Sredoje Lukic you thought was 40 years old at the time.  Isn't that

24     true?

25        A.   When I was giving statements on this issue, they said that it

Page 1354

 1     didn't matter exactly what his age was, that I should give the

 2     approximate age, and I did so.  I wasn't there when they were born to

 3     know their exact age.  That's it.

 4        Q.   Were they wearing anything on their heads?

 5        A.   I didn't see.  I think that they had those military caps.  Maybe

 6     they had them behind their belts, but I did seem to recall them not

 7     having anything on their heads.  I don't know.

 8        Q.   Now, in your statement you believed that Dragomir Gavrilovic was

 9     on duty that night.  Do you mean as a police officer?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.  As we were on the move, my husband went over to ask

11     Dusan to accompany us on our way.  Dusan said, "But you're safe."  So I

12     know that he worked that evening.  I'm not sure whether he was on duty

13     when he was -- during the night.  I only know about when my husband went

14     over to ask him to escort us.

15        Q.   And you also felt he knew where you and your family was that

16     night; correct?

17        A.   Do you mean at my house or down there when we got there?  I

18     didn't understand your question.

19        Q.   Down there at the Memic house.

20        A.   Well, of course he knew.  When we were just below our village,

21     there was our neighbour Hamizalija, that he got there and then went to

22     town together with Ilija.  He took a car and he waved out of the car

23     towards us that we should go down there, and the other one was telling

24     him to stop waving to us.

25        Q.   And so it was like he knew where you had to go before you were

Page 1355

 1     even told to go there?

 2        A.   I don't know that he knew that.  They should be the ones to

 3     investigate that.  First of all, there was no bus waiting for us there at

 4     7.00 as it should have been.  Second, did he know about where they were

 5     taking us?  Did he tell them to take us there and do to us what they did?

 6     I don't know.  As soon as I realised that no buses were forthcoming, I

 7     knew that something was brewing.  I mean, this isn't any sort of

 8     information that I got.  I simply felt this when I saw that no buses

 9     arrived, I realised that they were lying us to.  The man from Loznica, he

10     said that there would be a bus waiting for us and that even our police

11     force would be escorting us to our destination to make sure that we are

12     safe.

13             Now, these men should be the ones to investigate who it was who

14     ordered them to do that to us.  I don't know.

15        Q.   And so wouldn't it be fair to say that the people that profited

16     the most from you leaving your village, the people that took your land

17     afterwards might be the ones that also planned your exodus?

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I object.  It calls for speculation.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, you've --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You've also asked two questions.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I can't say

23     anything about that.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move on.  She can't answer the question.

25             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, the 1998 statement was already

Page 1356

 1     introduced as P83, and at this point in time we -- but we would like to

 2     introduce the proofing notes.  1D10-1626.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I object.  The proofing notes are

 4     notes from the attorneys, the attorney's recollection of notes that the

 5     attorney made at the proofing session.  These were not read by the

 6     witness.  They're not signed by the witness.  They're attorney notes.

 7     They're not evidence, notes that are passed along to the Defence as a

 8     courtesy.  They're not evidence, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

10             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I think -- you know, part of the

11     problems with 92 ter and these large statements coming in with only the

12     right to cross-examine is some of the corrections are coming from these

13     meetings, and one thing that I think is going to be relevant over time

14     and if we have to make it part of a submission as opposed to evidence and

15     put it in an annex, maybe that's the way to move the point, but all these

16     proofing statements are causing minor shifts in the testimony either by

17     name, description, or date, and I think that that's going to become

18     apparent over the course of time.  And like I said, I think the witness

19     has already testified to some of these factors of which may speak for

20     themselves but obviously the typewritten English is a little sometimes

21     maybe more on point than the testimony we've gotten, since the witness

22     tends to answer in the narrative.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I see Mr. Groome is on his feet.  What are these

24     proofing notes?  How are they made?

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, they're generated, Your Honour, when a

Page 1357

 1     witness comes to testify in The Hague.  And in preparation for their

 2     testimony the attorneys provide them with their older statements and may

 3     ask them additional questions.  When they provide information which is

 4     not contained in their previous statements, it's the Prosecutor's

 5     position that we should be disclosing this, and the mechanism that we use

 6     for disclosing anything in addition that the witness has provided or

 7     anything that may be different is the proofing note.

 8             I would very much oppose that it is given the same status as a

 9     witness statement, but may I make a suggestion with respect to how it's

10     been dealt with in other cases, and perhaps it might be a way that it be

11     dealt with here.

12             I believe the matter that's contained in the proofing note could

13     be put to the witness.  Did you not say yesterday or whatever date's on

14     the proofing note, did you not say to the Prosecutor X, Y, and Z.

15     Depending what the witness says, the Prosecution afterward would be

16     willing to enter into a stipulation or an agreement that on the date

17     indicated in the proofing note, that was in fact said to the Prosecutor

18     handling the case, and that way we would avoid giving these proofing --

19     these notes which are essentially notes generated by an attorney and

20     attributing them to the witness but still Mr. Cepic and Mr. Alarid would

21     have the benefit of evidence on the record that the Prosecution agrees

22     that the witness did make such a statement the day or whatever day's

23     indicated on the proofing note.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, my own mind isn't made up on it, but my

Page 1358

 1     brother and my sister are against its admission, so we won't admit it.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Well, maybe we could revisit it, Your Honour, as

 3     long as we have the -- as long as we have the proofing note uploaded, we

 4     might be able to make a further submission at the end.  It's just

 5     sometimes difficult to cross-examine the witness in this way, especially

 6     since there are so many statements that have come in.  It's extremely

 7     difficult to cross-examine the statements when these witnesses are, one,

 8     so stressed over their testimony and their answers tend to be narrative.

 9     This does indicate that there are these minor changes that I think

10     doesn't go to the admissibility but to the weight of the evidence.  I

11     think what it really is going to hinge on is the weight you give it.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move only.  Let's move on, Mr. Alarid.

13     I've already given the ruling.

14             MR. ALARID:  Then I have no further questions at this time.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Ms. Sartorio -- sorry, I mean

16     Mr. Cepic.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I do have some questions for

18     this witness.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  You are allowed to cross-examine.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, good afternoon.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Let me first introduce myself to you.  My name is Djuro Cepic,

24     and I represent the Defence for Sredoje Lukic.

25        A.   Go ahead.

Page 1359

 1        Q.   Can you hear me?

 2        A.   Yes, I can hear everything.

 3        Q.   Before I put my first question to you, let me tell you this:  I

 4     understand the pain and the suffering your son and you experienced during

 5     this incident.  On behalf of my team and in my name, I wish to express my

 6     sympathy for what you and your son have suffered during that incident.

 7             Please listen to my questions carefully so that we can go through

 8     them quickly.

 9             Can you please repeat your answer?  It was not recorded in the

10     transcript.  Do you understand what I said to you so far?

11        A.   Can you please repeat?

12        Q.   I represent the Defence for Sredoje Lukic.

13        A.   I know that.  That I know.  I understand everything.  Please go

14     ahead with your questions.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Madam, I put it to you that Sredoje Lukic, who is

16     seated in this courtroom here today, did not take part in this incident

17     because on that day he was a long way away from Visegrad.  Do you

18     understand?

19        A.   No, I don't.  I don't understand that.  That's not true at all.

20     I have not come here at the age of 67 to tell lies or to impute things

21     that the person has not done.

22        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  Your child, VG-84, was it with you

23     throughout the incident?

24        A.   Yes, throughout the war, and it's still with me now.

25        Q.   Were VG-13 and VG-38 with you throughout the incident, at all

Page 1360

 1     times?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Hasib Kurspahic was there with you as well, was he not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Following this incident, at a later date, you, your son, VG-84,

 6     and Edhem Kurspahic were refugees in Srebrenica, were you not?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You'll agree with me that neither your son, VG-84, nor Edhem

 9     Kurspahic, nor you knew Sredoje Lukic before this incident?

10        A.   No, no.  I wouldn't even know them today.  Just -- if they had

11     not introduced themselves to me, if they had not said that they were

12     Milan or Sredoje Lukic.  I would not be able to tell you about him --

13     about them.  And this is true for everything else.

14        Q.   I understand.  Edhem Kurspahic and your son didn't know who is

15     who before this incident, before these men introduced themselves?

16    A.   Edhem knew only Lalco, that he was… he told us that this was him.  He

17 said, how come that thug joined ranks with them.  He used to plough his land…

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  I was going object to the question asking what

20     other people knew, if -- I guess he could lay a foundation whether she

21     knows whether they knew or not.  The question was Edhem Kurspahic and

22     your son didn't know who is who before this incident.  I'm not sure she

23     can speak for them.  It's a speculative -- it calls for a speculative

24     answer.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, can you answer the question whether

Page 1361

 1     Edhem Kurspahic and your son didn't know who before the incident?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't know them before.  They

 3     got to know them, just as I did, when they came to Mujo Memic's house and

 4     introduced themselves to us.  Well, I didn't know about Edhem, but my son

 5     didn't know them.  How could he have known them?  There's no speculation

 6     in that, I'm sure.  He definitely did not know them.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, move on.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, not all of your words were interpreted.

10     You said that Edhem only recognised Lalco.  Did you not?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   And the others he didn't know?

13        A.   Well, for the others he knew him just as I did, when they

14     introduced themselves, and this is true for my son.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Could I have in e-court system Exhibit number P83,

17     seventh page in B/C/S and seventh page in English, please.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, let us look at your 1998 statement

19     briefly.  This is a statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor.

20             You are the same age as my mother, and she has quite poor

21     eyesight.  Are you able to read what you can see on the screen here?

22        A.   I can't make out what I can see on the screen.  I don't

23     understand that.

24        Q.   Do you want me to read this out to you, and you can then just

25     look and see if this is exactly what it says?

Page 1362

 1        A.   Yes.  I'll hear what you have to say and then I'll tell you if

 2     it's true.

 3        Q.   In paragraph two it says, line two:  "As they got into the house

 4     they were Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Laco.  Sredoje Lukic said that

 5     he was Sredoje Lukic."  "The other two were recognised by other people in

 6     the room."

 7             Do you recall this part your statement?

 8        A.   I said I know at all times that they had introduced themselves as

 9     Sredoje and Milan.  I have nothing else to say.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have P82.  In e-court system page 29.  This

11     is the transcript of testimony of this witness in the case against Mitar

12     Vasiljevic, page number 1581.

13             I need bottom of the page, from 19th line.  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, this is the transcript of your testimony

15     in the Mitar Vasiljevic case.  Colleague Groome asked us, starting on

16     line 19:  "I'm asking you about the man that came to the house after

17     Mitar Vasiljevic gave you the certificate.  How many men came to the

18     house at that time?"  Your answer was:  "People came.  Sredoje Lukic came

19     with the people.  He introduced himself.  I wouldn't have recognised him,

20     but he introduced himself ..."

21             Now, I'd like to know the following, madam:  During your

22     testimony on Friday in answer to the Prosecutor's question, you gave a

23     statement that was noticeably different on this particular issue, and you

24     said that --

25             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour.

Page 1363

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio is on her feet.

 2             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, may we see the question that was put

 3     to the witness on Friday, please?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And the answer too.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, please.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  I have to find just this part of the transcript from

 7     Friday, which is inclusion with -- in the previous testimony.  May I

 8     complete the question?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, you may complete it, but for our purposes

10     Ms. Sartorio I think is correct.  It would be very helpful to see the

11     question that was put on Friday and the answer which you say was

12     noticeably different.

13             MR. ALARID:  Yes, of course.  The page number is 1303, lines from

14     8 to 17th.  If it's possible to have this page in front us.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In the age of technology it should.

16             MR. CEPIC:  1303, please.  Yes, thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I have some assistance with my screen?

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would just note that it is the time

19     that you had said you wanted to break.  If there's a technical problem,

20     perhaps would it be wise to --

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We'll take the adjournment now.

22                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, please continue.

25             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1364

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, I left off looking at your transcript of

 2     Friday, page 1303, and with regards to this, who introduced himself or

 3     whatever, you said on line 13:  "They came.  Milan Lukic said that his

 4     name was Milan Lukic, and the other one said that he was Sredoje Lukic.

 5     As for the third one, I didn't hear anything until they had gone."

 6             Madam, I'm asking you now, did somebody perhaps tell you what you

 7     were supposed to say before this court here today when testifying?  Did

 8     they suggest anything?

 9        A.   I am testifying to the best of my recollections everything that I

10     lived through.  I gave statements about what I had lived through and

11     experienced.

12             MR. CEPIC:  Can we have P82, page in e-court system 70, 7-0.  It

13     is the page 1622 from the Vasiljevic trial.  Let me see the page number

14     in the upper corner.  Thank you.  Could you scroll down, please.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, my colleague Mr. Domazet asked you a

16     question, and your answer was as follows, this was in a previous trial,

17     the trial of Mitar Vasiljevic:  "I wouldn't know Mitar either had he not

18     said who he was.  I wouldn't have known him either, been able to

19     recognise him.  And I would have said the same about him as I did about

20     the they other men.  I didn't know them."

21             And then line 20 where you say:  "I didn't know them.  This Milan

22     came and said that he was Sredoje Lukic and that is how I know."

23             And that's lines 20 and 21 of the transcript.

24             Now, what I'm interested in is this:  Did Milan Lukic say that he

25     was Sredoje Lukic, or did he indicate, point to somebody else, point to

Page 1365

 1     another man and introduced that man to the other people and said, "This

 2     man is Sredoje Lukic"?  Which was it?

 3        A.   Well, how are you asking me that?  I've said any number of times

 4     that I was in a group of people and that I just heard who said what.  I

 5     didn't look around who was Milan, who was Sredoje.  So I'm looking at

 6     them now and I don't really know.  I can't say.  I can't recognise which

 7     is which or who is who.  I just heard people saying in that group of

 8     people that one of these men was Milan Lukic and that the other was

 9     Sredoje Lukic, and had they not introduced themselves, well, I wouldn't

10     have even have known their names, but they gave their names themselves.

11     So don't tire me with that any longer.  I'm not a fortune-teller to know

12     whether this one's Milan and that one's Sredoje.

13        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  I understand perfectly, madam, and I understand

14     the pain and suffering you must be feeling.  I'd just like you to help me

15     out so we can clarify things to the best of your recollections, of

16     course.

17             Can you remember the moment when a person introduced themselves

18     in the house and said, "I am Sredoje Lukic"?  Can you remember that

19     moment?

20        A.   Well, of course I can.  We've just talked about it.  Of course.

21     How wouldn't I be able to remember?  You just asked me and I answered.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I heard the testimony of VG-38, and he said that that

23     Sredoje Lukic, that man, Sredoje Lukic, was lower in height than --

24     shorter in height than Milan Lukic, that he was five centimetres shorter,

25     in fact.

Page 1366

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  I object, Your Honour.  Is there a question before

 2     the witness?

 3             MR. CEPIC:  I'm just confronting the person.  Could I complete

 4     the question, please?

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is there anything to be redacted, Prosecutor?

16             MS. SARTORIO:  My colleague who does speak Bosnian said she did

17     mention the name of one of the protected witnesses, but it's not in our

18     English version.  It doesn't -- it doesn't show up in the English

19     transcript.  It was just heard in the Bosnian.  Yes.  It was around line

20     37, I mean page 37, line 20, 20 to 24.  Somewhere in there was the name

21     of a person mentioned.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  The court deputy will deal with that.

23             Continue, Mr. Cepic.

24             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we have page from

25     Friday 1304, 1304 page.  Thank you.  Scroll up a little bit just to see

Page 1367

 1     the last of previous page.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Lines 4 and 5.  You said that you weren't

 3     looking towards Sredoje and Milan, weren't looking at them.  May I then

 4     conclude that you weren't looking towards that man when he introduced

 5     himself?

 6        A.   Perhaps I would have looked had I been nearby, but I was in the

 7     room.  They went into the general sitting area first.  I just heard it.

 8        Q.   So you didn't actually see him when he introduced himself.  Isn't

 9     that right?

10        A.   No, I didn't see him, but when we went into another room, we all

11     had to go to this other room, then I saw them, but I didn't know who was

12     who.

13        Q.   Well, when you saw him then, I'd like to hear some details about

14     what that person looked like.

15             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have 1D33 in the system of e-court.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll try and remind you by using your previous

17     statements when describing that person as to have as much detail as

18     possible.

19             Madam, this is the statement that my colleague Alarid asked you

20     about.  It was given on the 17th of May, 1993, to the state security

21     sector, Tuzla.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have page 5 bottom of the page, and in B/C/S

23     fourth page, also bottom of the page.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see your signature there on that

25     statement, madam?

Page 1368

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So just up above the signature it says, and I'll read

 3     it out.  Can you see it?

 4        A.   Well, not really, no.

 5        Q.   I'll read it out then.  "At around 1700 hours, Sredoje Lukic came

 6     to the house, a retired policeman, as well as his brother and two other

 7     men."

 8             Madam, I'm interested in knowing the following:  Where did you

 9     get the information that Sredoje Lukic was retired at the time?  Who

10     provided you with that information?

11        A.   I didn't know about that, but I heard stories going round that he

12     was in the police.  His father told us with Huso.  I know that the other

13     one was a little shorter and darker skinned, whereas Milan had lighter

14     skin.  That's as far as I know.  And I had heard that Hasim said that he

15     was in the police force, this man Sredoje Lukic, but I didn't know him.

16     I went to Visegrad, but I don't remember.  I don't remember having

17     anything to do with the police ever.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So you don't remember the source.  In light of what

19     it says here in your statement, that man should be around Huso's age or

20     maybe a little older; right?  Can you tell us, is he -- was he about

21     Huso's age?

22        A.   Well, I don't really know.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Can we identify who Huso is?  And also, if this is

24     a protected witness, should this not be on the record?

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Lay some foundation, Mr. Cepic.  Is Huso a

Page 1369

 1     protected witness?

 2             MR. CEPIC:  He's not protected.  He testified without any

 3     measure, as far as I can remember.  My learned friends from OTP can

 4     remind me, but it was VG-61, but --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He's not a protected witness, I'm informed.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just wasn't sure who he

 7     was referring to, as he only said the first name.  Thank you.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, you know Huso Kurspahic, don't you?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

11        Q.   This man Sredoje who appeared in the house, was he about Huso's

12     age, because you said that he was retired?  Or was he older than Huso,

13     perhaps younger than Huso?

14        A.   Well, I really can't say.  I don't know.  I've said umpteen times

15     that I didn't look at them, so please believe me.  Now you want me to

16     measure him up with someone else 17 years on.  I really can't do that.  I

17     don't know.  Just my story.  Whether he was Huso's colleague or superior

18     to him or his age or not, I really can't say.

19        Q.   When that man introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic at that moment,

20     how far were they -- were VG-13 and VG-38 from where you were standing?

21        A.   Well, we women were in the room, and the menfolk, when they

22     arrived, were at the entrance to the sitting room.  We were all there,

23     but we -- all we were doing was following orders.  We didn't look to see

24     how old they were or what their date of birth was.

25        Q.   In that group of women, the women who were with you, was VG-13

Page 1370

 1     among them?

 2        A.   Yes, she was.

 3        Q.   Madam, last week in this same courtroom before this same Trial

 4     Chamber we heard testimony from VG-13, and she said that she knew Sredoje

 5     Lukic and that she did not see him --

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  This line of questioning

 7     putting another -- statement from another witness to this witness isn't

 8     proper questioning.  You can put the proposition to the witness but not

 9     confront this witness with what another witness has stated.  This has

10     happened on numerous occasions in the courtroom and it's objectionable.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, Trial Chambers will view this differently,

12     but it's preferable to put the proposition, Mr. Cepic, so do that.

13             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, will you agree with the statement of

15     VG-13 who knew Sredoje Lukic?

16        A.   She knew them because she worked at Hidrogradnja.  She knows

17     everything about what was going on in the town.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection.  Objection.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  He didn't -- again the question that was put to

21     the witness again mentioned the witness rather than just the proposition.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us move on.

23             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you recall any detail at all which would

25     help us identify that person?

Page 1371

 1        A.   I don't understand.  Which person do you mean?

 2        Q.   The person who introduced himself as Sredoje Lukic.

 3        A.   Well, how can I testify about that?  I only know about Sredoje

 4     and Milan.  I only know about the two of them, so I can't testify about

 5     anyone else being there since I only know about them.  I will not be

 6     testifying about persons I didn't see.

 7        Q.   Do you recall him being stout or skinny?  You said that he was

 8     shorter than Milan.

 9        A.   The police officers had never been skinny, if he was on the

10     police force.

11        Q.   This is your assumption.  This is not your direct knowledge.

12        A.   I didn't look at him to see if he was skinny or stout.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the microphones in the courtroom please be

14     switched off.

15             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did he have a cap on or not?

17        A.   As far as I know, both of them didn't have -- or either of them

18     didn't have any caps.  I heard them introduce themselves, and then when

19     they were taking valuables from us, gold and money, I saw that they

20     didn't have any caps.

21        Q.   Did any of them wear a mask over their face or a stocking or

22     something of the sort?

23        A.   Well, no, not when I saw them.  As for when they got in there, I

24     don't know about that.

25        Q.   Since they didn't have a cap, either of them, do you perhaps

Page 1372

 1     recall what sort of hair they had?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't know anything about that.  You're asking

 3     me too much.  Perhaps they were bald, I don't know.  How should I know

 4     what sort of hair they had?

 5        Q.   Madam, in that house were the menfolk also compelled to hand over

 6     money and jewellery?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did Hasib Kurspahic also turn over his valuables?  Did they take

 9     money from him?

10        A.   I don't know.  As far as I know, all of us did.  I'm not able to

11     tell you in respect of each and every individual if they did turn over

12     their valuables.  I know that I did mine.  I handed over mine and went

13     back to where I was standing before.  I don't know about the others.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But Hasib was present there, was he not?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  Of course he must have been there.  All of

16     us were there.  Of course he was.  Ah, I don't know.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you perhaps recall if any one of these individuals

18     had a moustache or a beard?

19        A.   Yes.  The one who was taking us to the other room to strip us

20     naked did.

21        Q.   Did he introduce himself to you?

22        A.   If he were here today, I would tell him, "Why don't you look at a

23     naked balija now."  That's what I would tell him.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How much longer do you have?

25             MR. CEPIC:  I'm trying to do my best in the next ten minutes,

Page 1373

 1     Your Honour, maybe less.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, I understand the pain you're feeling, and

 5     I'll try to take this slowly.

 6             While you were being searched, were you on the first floor of the

 7     Memic house?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I think that we were on the second floor.  That's

 9     what it seems to me, because I recall descending the stairs.

10        Q.   Did the room have any windows?

11        A.   Yes.  Up -- where do you mean, downstairs or upstairs where they

12     were taking our money?

13        Q.   I meant upstairs, madam.

14        A.   Upstairs.  Well, of course there were.  Yes, there were.

15        Q.   Madam, will you agree with me that you don't know who Sredoje

16     Lukic is and that you're claiming that it was Sredoje Lukic because

17     others told you to do so and because a person introduced himself as

18     Sredoje Lukic?

19        A.   Well, don't, please don't.  I didn't come here to tell lies or

20     untruths.  I would that nobody had been there, because I wouldn't be

21     there either.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Madam, thank you very much.  I have

24     no more questions for you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1374

 1             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Let me emphasise once more that I

 2     understand the pain you've been through.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  We have no redirect, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

 6     you for giving it, and you may now leave.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  My colleague Mr. Weber will be handling the next

10     witness, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Who is the witness, Mr. Weber?

12             MR. WEBER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Adam Weber on behalf

13     of the Prosecution.  At this time the Prosecution called VG-78.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How long are you going to be, Mr. Weber?

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness.  I anticipate

16     finishing within the hour allowed by the Court if the Court would allow

17     me to lead on matters that were already covered in this witness's

18     previous testimony and statement, I believe I could efficiently go

19     through today's proceedings.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, provided they are non-controversial and the

21     Defence have no objections to raise.

22             MR. WEBER:  Understood, Your Honour.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-78

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 1375

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.

 5             And you may begin, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             May I ask the court usher to tender the witness the sheet.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Weber:

 9        Q.   VG-78, you have been granted protective measures by the Trial

10     Chamber, and we will be using a pseudonym instead of your name today

11     throughout your testimony.  I'm directing your attention to the sheet

12     that appears in front of you.  Could you please confirm if your name and

13     date of birth appear on that sheet?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you please sign the sheet.

16        A.   Where, here?

17        Q.   Anywhere would be fine.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

20     the pseudonym sheet into evidence.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As P86 under seal, Your Honours.

23             MR. WEBER:  May the court officer -- sorry.  Could the court

24     usher please hand to the witness this sheet.

25        Q.   VG-78, you have been provided with a reference sheet which

Page 1376

 1     contains the names of persons you may wish to name during the course of

 2     your testimony.  Could you please refrain from using those individual

 3     names and instead use the pseudonyms or numbers that appear next to those

 4     individuals' names on this sheet.  Do you understand?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   VG-78, what village did you live in up until June of 1992?

 7        A.   In the village of Koritnik.

 8        Q.   What was your age in June of 1992?

 9        A.   I was 22.  I was born in 1968.

10        Q.   Did you previously testify in the case of the Prosecutor versus

11     Mitar Vasiljevic on the 28th of September and 1st of October, 2001?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review that testimony in the

14     Bosnian language before coming to court here today?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, pursuant to Rule 92 ter the Prosecution

17     tenders into evidence VG-78's prior testimony in the Vasiljevic case,

18     which is 65 ter numbers 132 and 133.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 132 will become Exhibit P88;

21     and 133, P89 under seal.

22             MR. WEBER:  The underlying exhibits referred to and authenticated

23     in that testimony are 65 ter numbers 130 under seal, 131 under seal and

24     184.  The Prosecution at this time tenders those three exhibits into

25     evidence based upon the previous testimony.

Page 1377

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please repeat the 65 ter

 3     numbers?  They're not in the transcript.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Of course.  The first one was 65 ter 130, which is

 5     under seal, the second one was 131 also under seal, and the last one was

 6     184.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 130 will become Exhibit number P87 under

 8     seal.  65 ter 131 will become Exhibit P90 and 184 will become P91, all

 9     under seal.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   VG-78, did you also provide a statement to an ICY -- ICTY

12     investigator on the date of the 23rd of January, 2001?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review that statement in the

15     Bosnian language before coming to court here today?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   If you were asked the same questions that you were asked when you

18     provided that statement, would you give the same answers to the Court?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is that statement true and accurate to the best of your

21     knowledge?

22        A.   It is.

23             MR. WEBER:  Pursuant to Rule 92 ter, the Prosecution tenders into

24     evidence VG-78's prior statement from the 23rd of January, 2001, which is

25     65 ter number 183.

Page 1378

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P92 under seal, Your Honours.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the court usher please call up Exhibit P92,

 3     which is the ICTY statement and turn to e-court page 4 of both the

 4     English and the B/C/S versions.  Thank you very much.

 5        Q.   Directing your attention to the second paragraph from the top of

 6     the page.  Did you state in your ICTY statement that:  "I knew Milan

 7     Lukic very well.  He was born in 1967, and he was from a neighbouring

 8     village to the village where Mitar Vasiljevic came from.  Both of us went

 9     to school in Prelovo.  He was one grade ahead of me.  After finishing 8th

10     grade he left and moved to Serbia."  Was that your statement?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How many years did you attend school with Milan Lukic in Prelovo?

13        A.   Seven years.

14        Q.   During the course of those seven years that you attended school

15     with Milan Lukic, where would you see him in school?

16        A.   I'd see him in passing in the hallways during our breaks.  I'd

17     see him among other students there.

18        Q.   Did you ever see Milan Lukic outside of school?

19        A.   Well, yes.

20        Q.   Where would you see --

21        A.   Around the school building.

22        Q.   And where --

23        A.   Around the school building with other students as he was passing

24     by.

25        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention now to your previous testimony

Page 1379

 1     that you provided to the -- to the Tribunal.  Did you discuss in that

 2     testimony a particular day in June of 1992 in which you and other

 3     individuals from your village of Koritnik left Koritnik and went to

 4     Visegrad?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What was that date?

 7        A.   The 14th of June, 1992.  That was the date when we set out from

 8     the village of Koritnik.

 9        Q.   On the 14th of June, 1992, did you eventually go to Visegrad?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Where did you and the other members of your village go in

12     Visegrad?

13        A.   We went to the Mahala neighbourhood, to the Pionirska Street.

14        Q.   When you went to Pionirska Street, did you go to a particular

15     place?

16        A.   Yes.  We were told to go up there to be put up there, to spend

17     the night.  We were supposed to take a bus on the following day from

18     Mahala.

19        Q.   Did you go to a particular house on Pionirska Street in Visegrad?

20        A.   Yes.  We went where we were told to go.  We were given that

21     possibility to spend the night there and to go for Kladanj on the

22     following day.  They said that should anyone come to the house we should

23     show them the piece of paper that they gave us where they allegedly

24     guaranteed our safety.

25        Q.   You're referring to "we."  Who are you referring to?

Page 1380

 1        A.   The Serbs who found the accommodation for us.  Milan and Mitar

 2     Vasiljevic, the ones who put us up at that house, told us we would be

 3     spending the night in that home and leaving for Kladanj the following

 4     day.  Mitar Vasiljevic gave us a piece of paper where we were allegedly

 5     guaranteed safety, where nobody was allowed to mistreat us.

 6        Q.   Could you please describe this house?

 7        A.   It was a big house which had a small kitchen, two rooms, a

 8     corridor, and an attic.

 9        Q.   Did you previously testify as to what happened in this house on

10     Pionirska Street on the 14th of June, 1992?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Directing your attention to once you arrived at the house on

13     Pionirska, I'd like to reference a particular portion of your previous

14     testimony.

15             MR. WEBER:  If the court officer could please call up Exhibit

16     P88, which is page 1287, line 20 through -- I'm sorry, line 22 through

17     page 1288, line 3 from her previous testimony.  It's e-court pages 11 and

18     12.

19        Q.   VG-78, during your previous testimony were you asked the

20     following questions and did you provide the previous testimony:

21                      "Q.  Did there come a time that afternoon that Milan

22     Lukic arrived?

23                      "A.  Yes.

24                      "Q.  How many later was this in relation to the last

25     time you saw Mitar Vasiljevic?

Page 1381

 1                      "A.  About an hour later, maybe less.  I can't remember

 2     exactly.

 3                      "Q.  Was it still light outside or already dark?

 4                      "A.  It was light."

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you personally see Milan Lukic when he came into the house on

 7     that occasion?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, then.

 9        Q.   Were you sitting or standing at that time?

10        A.   I was standing.

11        Q.   Approximately how far was Milan Lukic from you when you saw him

12     arrive at the house?

13        A.   About a metre and a half away.  Perhaps a little more or a little

14     less.  I can't quite remember.

15        Q.   You mentioned that there was light outside.  Was there visible

16     light inside of the house?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you see Milan Lukic's face at that time?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   When you saw Milan Lukic, what was he wearing?

21        A.   A camouflage.  He didn't have a hat on his head.

22        Q.   When you say "camouflage," what articles of clothing was he

23     wearing that were camouflaged?

24        A.   Multicoloured, the multicoloured type of clothing that the Serbs

25     wore, the Serb soldiers.  I don't remember exactly.  Anyway,

Page 1382

 1     multicoloured clothing.

 2        Q.   When Milan Lukic arrived at the house on this first occasion was

 3     he with anyone else?

 4        A.   Yes.  There were two others, but I didn't know them.

 5        Q.   At this time when Milan Lukic entered the house were you with

 6     anyone else?

 7        A.   Yes.  I was standing there with my sister and all my family, my

 8     mother, my brother's children and his wife, my family, my relatives from

 9     the village of Koritnik.  We were all there in the house.  Some of them

10     were in the room, other -- the others were in the house because there

11     were two rooms and a hallway and so on.

12        Q.   Does your sister's name appear on that sheet in front of you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Could you please tell the Court what is her pseudonym?

15        A.   VG-101.

16        Q.   Did VG-101 say anything to you when Milan Lukic arrived at the

17     house?

18        A.   Yes, she did.  She said, "Do you know who this is?"  And I

19     couldn't remember, so I asked her who it was, and she said this is Milan

20     Lukic from the village of Prelovo who went to school the eight years of

21     elementary school when we went to school.  So she recognised him first.

22        Q.   Was there any doubt in your mind at this time that the individual

23     that arrived at the house was Milan Lukic?

24        A.   Well, no.  I had no doubt.  When he ran into the house, he was

25     saying something, and my sister at that point in time, as he rushed into

Page 1383

 1     the house, she said that that was Milan Lukic from the village of

 2     Prelovo.  Trsvina or Pozdercici or some other hamlet, but anyway, from

 3     Prelovo.

 4        Q.   You mentioned that Milan Lukic said something.  What did he say?

 5        A.   Yes.  He came into the house and he said, "Your valuables,

 6     money."  He said that in a very loud voice and said that if they found

 7     anybody with those things on them they would -- he would cut their

 8     fingers off.

 9        Q.   After Milan Lukic demanded valuables and threatened to cut off

10     people's fingers, what did he then do?

11        A.   They collected up the money, and the people who were with him

12     took the money away, and after that he recognised Jasmina Vila, and he

13     said, "How come you're here?"  And he hugged her and took her outside.

14        Q.   You've mentioned Jasmina Vila.  Was she in the same room as you

15     at the time that Milan Lukic came into the house?

16        A.   Yes.  She was there somewhere.  Whether she was in the room or in

17     the house, but she was there anyway.  She was among us in the house,

18     there in the house with us.

19        Q.   Approximately how far were you from Milan Lukic when he walked

20     over to Jasmina Vila?

21        A.   Well, I don't remember exactly.  It was all in the house.  People

22     were moving around.  You couldn't actually tell.  I don't remember.

23        Q.   Could you give an approximation?

24        A.   Well, perhaps ten steps away, something like that.  Ten steps.

25        Q.   When Milan Lukic went over to Jasmina Vila, were you able to see

Page 1384

 1     his face during that time?

 2        A.   Well, yes, yes.  I saw him.  They passed right by me, right next

 3     to me.

 4        Q.   Did Milan Lukic proceed to leave with Jasmina Vila?

 5        A.   Yes, he did.  He left the house.

 6        Q.   On this first occasion that you observed Milan Lukic,

 7     approximately how much time passed between when he first arrived to when

 8     he left the house?

 9        A.   Well, I don't remember really.

10        Q.   Can you approximate?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   Did you testify about another occasion that you saw Milan Lukic

13     on the 14th of June, 1992?

14        A.   Well, yes.

15        Q.   When was it that you saw Milan Lukic again on that day?

16        A.   I saw him in the evening when they came to tell us to go out of

17     that house into another house, and they said we should leave our things

18     there, and allegedly he looked through our things to check if there were

19     any weapons or anything like that.  In front of the house where the

20     people were sent off to, to the house where they were all -- where they

21     burnt them all.  And he was moving around.  Mitar was there at the door.

22     He said, "You don't need shoes.  You can go barefoot."

23        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to a specific portion of your

24     previous testimony regarding the second occasion that you observed Milan

25     Lukic.

Page 1385

 1             MR. WEBER:  Court officer, this is Exhibit P88 again.  It's page

 2     1290, lines 14 through 19 from her previous testimony.  It's e-court page

 3     14.

 4        Q.   VG-78, did you provide the following testimony on the 28th of

 5     September, 2001?

 6                      "Q.  Did you recognise any of these men?

 7                      "A.  I saw Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic walking

 8     between the two houses.  They were not in front of this house, but I ran

 9     away together with VG-101.  I hid behind the shed and then went down to a

10     creek and through the woods, as far away as I could from the town."

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When you saw Milan Lukic on this second occasion when he was with

13     Mitar Vasiljevic, approximately how far was he from you?

14        A.   Well, about 30 steps away, thereabouts.

15        Q.   What was the lighting -- I'm sorry.  What was the lighting like

16     at that time out in front of house?

17        A.   Well, there were lights outside.  In the houses you could see

18     proper lights.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What time was it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 11.00 or half past 11.00, maybe

21     12.00.  We didn't have a watch to see what the time was.  Well, someone

22     did.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Was Milan Lukic with anyone else at this time besides Mitar

Page 1386

 1     Vasiljevic?

 2        A.   Yes.  There was a man standing in front of the door with a

 3     moustache.  I don't know his first or last name.  He was in the house and

 4     mistreated the people.  He stood in front of the door.  He had a

 5     moustache, and he had a battery, and he would shine the torch, actually,

 6     as people went out, but I don't know what his name was.  I don't know his

 7     name or surname.  I didn't know him.

 8        Q.   Were there any other individuals besides the individual with the

 9     moustache?

10        A.   Well, in front of the door.  One of them had a torch and would

11     shine it at the people as they left the house and, yes, there were

12     others, but they moved around.  As the people came out of the house, they

13     moved towards the other house, whereas this one was in front of the door.

14     He stood in front of the door waiting for all the people to come out, the

15     one with the moustache that I said I didn't know what he was called.

16        Q.   When you saw Milan Lukic on this second occasion, what portion of

17     him could you see?

18        A.   Well, there were people going to the other house.  They were

19     standing around there, and I was behind the house, by the shed with my

20     sister, and we went past a creek and escaped that way.

21        Q.   When you saw Milan Lukic on the second occasion, could you see

22     his face?

23        A.   Just a little bit.  His profile.  Not like when I saw him in the

24     house.

25        Q.   When you saw him in the house were you looking at him from

Page 1387

 1     straight on?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   VG-78, at this time I'd like you to take a look around the

 4     courtroom.  Could you please let us know whether or not you recognise any

 5     of the individuals in this courtroom aside from myself.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Who do you recognise?

 8        A.   Milan Lukic over there.

 9        Q.   Could you please describe --

10        A.   The second one.

11        Q.   Could you please describe something that he's wearing.

12        A.   A white shirt and a suit.  Now, whether it's blue or greenish I

13     can't -- or grey.  Yes, it's grey.  I can't really tell.  But the shirt's

14     white, and he's the second one next to the first gentleman there.

15        Q.   When you say the second one, are you referring to who exactly?

16        A.   Well, Milan Lukic over there.  He's sitting there.  He's got a

17     glass in front of him and --

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, may the record reflect the

19     identification of the accused Milan Lukic.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could we please move into private session?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's got a blue -- blue patterned

24     tie.

25  [Private session] [Part of Private Session made public by order of Chamber]

Page 1388











11  Page 1388 redacted. Private session.















Page 1389

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3        A.   Hasib Kurspahic and Edhem Kurspahic, but they're not alive.

 4     They've also died.  They died after coming out of that house.  They died

 5     later.

 6        Q.   Are there any other individuals that you are also aware that

 7     survived the burning at that house?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, there are others.

 9        Q.   Who are those other individuals?

10        A.   VG-013, VG-018, VG-038, VG-084, and VG-101.

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the witness.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

18             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, VG-78.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Now, ma'am, I'd like to ask you -- I know that your statements

23     have been introduced into evidence and your prior testimony has been

24     introduced into evidence, but the prior testimony was from the trial of

25     Mitar Vasiljevic and I represent Milan Lukic in this case.  May I ask you

Page 1390

 1     some questions this afternoon?

 2        A.   Yes, you can.

 3        Q.   Now, you're from the village of Koritnik.  Is that where you were

 4     born and stayed there until 1992?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And at what age did you start primary school?

 7        A.   Well, I was seven.  You mean the first form?  What do you mean?

 8        Q.   How old was your first year of primary school?  How old were you?

 9     Seven?

10        A.   Seven, yes.

11        Q.   And isn't it true that children from Rujiste went to primary

12     school in the village of Klasnik for grades 1 through 4?

13        A.   They went from grade 1 to 8.  The village of Prelovo, not

14     Klasnik.  That's another village.  That might have been the case in

15     Klasnik.  This is Prelovo.

16        Q.   But if I were to tell you that Milan Lukic is not from Prelovo

17     but from Rujiste, then where would the children from Rujiste go to

18     primary school?

19        A.   [No interpretation].

20        Q.   And I'm sorry, I did not get the translation of the answer.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Repeat the answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the children went to

23     Prelovo from Zupa.  That's what the villages and hamlets behind Prelovo

24     are referred to as Zupa, but the went to Prelovo and that was up to grade

25     4.  Other villages might have had some other school but I didn't hear

Page 1391

 1     that they had any primary school because the primary school was in

 2     Prelovo for all the children in the surrounding parts, both for Serbs and

 3     for Muslim children.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   Now, how far away is the -- or isn't it true that it's ten

 6     kilometres from Klasnik to Prelovo?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.

 8        Q.   And isn't it true that Rujiste is 23 kilometres from your

 9     village?

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't know how far it is.

11        Q.   And so if Milan were from Rujiste, wouldn't it be true that he

12     would only go to Prelovo from grades 5 through 8?

13        A.   As far as I know, he went to Prelovo, and it's common knowledge

14     that he went to school -- that Milan Lukic went to school in Prelovo from

15     grade 5 -- well, if the first school was from 1 to 4, grades 1 to 4, the

16     other one was from 1 to 8 in the village of Prelovo.  So the pupils went

17     to that school.  I've never heard of this school just from grades 1 to 4

18     in Klasnik, Kapetanovici and so on.  I lived in Visegrad for a long time

19     but I never heard of the existence of this school anywhere.

20        Q.   Is it true that children from the village of Koritnik went to

21     primary school in Visegrad?

22        A.   To Prelovo, not to Visegrad.  The children from Koritnik went to

23     school in Prelovo.  And as for secondary school they went to Visegrad to

24     attend secondary school.

25        Q.   And how --

Page 1392

 1        A.   Nobody --

 2        Q.   And how old is someone when they leave primary school?

 3        A.   Well, it depends on the child, when they start school.  If they

 4     start school later, then they finish later.

 5        Q.   What's -- when did you finish primary school?

 6        A.   Well, I was 15, 16.

 7        Q.   And that's when you finished primary school or secondary school?

 8        A.   Well, I hadn't completed it.

 9        Q.   And so when was your last year of school and where did you finish

10     school?

11        A.   In Sarajevo.  I went to secondary school in Sarajevo, not in

12     Visegrad, whereas primary school I went to Prelovo.

13        Q.   And in 1992 how old were you again?

14        A.   I'm -- I don't understand your question.  When I set out from

15     Koritnik or what?

16        Q.   In 1992, how old are you in June?

17        A.   Well, 22 when I left Koritnik.

18        Q.   And when did you finish school in Sarajevo?

19        A.   I didn't attend school regularly.  I took my exams privately.

20        Q.   And when did you move to Sarajevo from Visegrad, in what year?

21        A.   I don't remember that.

22        Q.   How old were you?

23        A.   It's been a long time.

24        Q.   How old were you?

25        A.   I don't remember.

Page 1393

 1        Q.   What was the last year you were in school anywhere in the

 2     municipality or area around Visegrad?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, we'd -- there's an objection.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             MR. WEBER:  This is a misstatement of her previous testimony.  If

 6     counsel would like to ask her when she was -- last attended a school in

 7     Prelovo we'd have no objection, but there's the implication that she went

 8     to school in Visegrad in this question.  I believe that misstates the

 9     witness's prior testimony.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're saying that it's incorrect to say Prelovo

11     is in the area around Visegrad.

12             MR. WEBER:  I believe the question is phrased in the

13     municipality.  We would agree that it's in the area around Visegrad.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't think it's a big issue, Mr. Weber.

15             MR. WEBER:  Very well, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move on.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   And, ma'am, what was the last year and how old were you the last

19     year that you attended school anywhere around Visegrad?

20        A.   I told you that I didn't go to school in Visegrad but in

21     Sarajevo.

22        Q.   In your village of Prelovo or in the school of -- or town of

23     Prelovo, how old were you the last year you attended school there?

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1394

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MR. WEBER:  Objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  If there's going to be questions concerning this I

 8     would ask that we go into private session in order to protect this

 9     witness's identity.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes, private session.  And that's to be

11     redacted.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1395











11  Pages 1395-1396 redacted. Private session.















Page 1397

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

20             MR. ALARID:

21        Q.   And, ma'am, I'm going to ask you again.  You were in the same

22     house as VG-18 and 84 all evening before being removed?

23        A.   Yes.  Before they moved over there.

24        Q.   Now, I'm -- on the screen there is those statements that we were

25     talking about back in 1995, and you indicated that they came to you to

Page 1398

 1     get information, you didn't go to them.  Is that true?

 2        A.   I don't understand the question.

 3        Q.   Well, did you go to the authorities to report a crime, or did you

 4     they hear that you were a witness and come to you to investigate?

 5        A.   Yes.  They came to me.  They came to my house having heard about

 6     that case.

 7        Q.   And how long did they stay with you?  This -- this statement is

 8     three to four pages long, three pages in Bosnian.  How long did they talk

 9     to you to compile this statement?

10        A.   I don't remember.

11        Q.   Well, did they -- they bring a typewriter with them and type as

12     you were speaking, or did they return after the meeting and show you the

13     statement?

14        A.   No.  The first time they were asking questions of me there was a

15     teacher there, and then they came the second time, and then only those

16     who came from The Hague Tribunal to my house had the machines with them,

17     but not the ones who were there before.

18             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistants go to the bottom of the

19     page.

20        Q.   And is that your signature at the bottom?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And so after interviewing you, the people that -- did you type

23     this yourself or was it typed by an official?

24        A.   I didn't type it out.  It was the one who came -- the ones who

25     came to see me.

Page 1399

 1        Q.   And -- and -- but you did read the statement and you signed all

 2     the pages.  Isn't that true?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And your memory should have been the most fresh as close to the

 5     incident as possible, and memory tends to fade over time.  Isn't that

 6     true?

 7        A.   No.  My memory improved over time.

 8        Q.   Now, isn't it true -- and I'd ask to move to page 2 of the

 9     English statement, and I think it might still be on page 2 -- yes, page 2

10     on both statements.

11             Now, the only place that Milan Lukic's name appears is in the

12     first sentence of the second paragraph on page 2.  Isn't that true?

13             MR. WEBER:  Objection, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  What is the basis?

15             MR. WEBER:  I just would ask that counsel would include in his

16     question the other references to Milan Lukic in that paragraph.

17             MR. ALARID:  And --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're saying there are other references to the

19     name.

20             MR. WEBER:  I believe it's -- six lines from the top of that

21     paragraph there's another reference to Mr. Lukic in the English version.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I see it.

23             MR. ALARID:  No objection, Your Honour, and I'd be moving these

24     two statements into evidence so I don't forget.

25             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution has no objection.  We just ask that

Page 1400

 1     they be kept under seal because of the personal nature of the information

 2     in it.

 3             MR. ALARID:  Absolutely.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will -- could I please ask

 6     counsel to switch off the microphone.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will become Exhibit number 1D35

 9     under seal.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   Now, in this statement you make no mention of Mitar Vasiljevic

12     being there at the end of the night.  Isn't that true?

13        A.   Well, I mentioned him as being there outside the door when he was

14     telling us that we didn't need our shoes on, that we could go barefoot.

15        Q.   Isn't it true that in the statement of 1995 you only mention

16     Mitar Vasiljevic as being present at the Red Cross wearing civilian

17     clothing and giving Meho a document to show Serbian police?

18        A.   Well, yes.  Yes.

19        Q.   And in this statement you did not include that he was there at

20     2350 hours.  Isn't that true?

21        A.   Well, fine, but the truth is that he was.  When we got to the

22     house one of the ladies who didn't survive said, "Mitar Vasiljevic gave

23     us a certificate."  He used to work with her brother.  They were good

24     mates.  Apparently we were not supposed to be afraid.  She said that she

25     was quite glad of Mitar having been there, because he was on good terms

Page 1401

 1     with her brother.  And she also said, "Don't be afraid.  We'll be the

 2     first ones to set out for Kladanj."

 3        Q.   And also in this statement you make no mention of the robbery?

 4        A.   As far as I remember, I said everything the way it was, that they

 5     took money and gold -- or, rather, that first they came to pick us up and

 6     that we had left everything behind.  As we moved from one house to the

 7     other we left all our belongings in the first house.  Perhaps it was not

 8     recorded, but I did state that, I do recall clearly stating that they

 9     came to the house, took our valuables, gold, money, and they took Jasmina

10     Vila away with them.

11        Q.   And -- but they didn't bother you other than taking your gold and

12     jewellery?  Did you have any gold or jewellery that was taken?

13        A.   Well, yes, I did.  I had some money, and I turned everything

14     over, the money and gold.

15        Q.   And were you personally harmed in any other way or molested?

16        A.   No.  No.  As far as that goes, no.

17        Q.   Now --

18        A.   Not that I was mistreated or anything.

19        Q.   Now, ma'am, a little -- and this house that you're in, it was

20     just a single storey with two rooms?

21        A.   Yes.  It was a big house with two rooms and a hallway.  There was

22     an attic, but I don't remember if there was a bathroom.

23        Q.   Was the attic finished as in people lived in the attic, or -- or

24     was it just the first floor that people lived on?

25        A.   As far as I remember, one had to go up the stairs.  I don't know

Page 1402

 1     if it had one floor or more floors.  I didn't really pay attention to

 2     that.  I know that there were two rooms, a hallway, a kitchen.  There was

 3     a balcony.

 4        Q.   Now, ma'am, you did have -- well, the first time you learned that

 5     there were survivors other than yourself was from your brother.  Isn't

 6     that true?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now --

 9        A.   In the village of Babin Potok where we fled to.

10        Q.   Is that where you saw your brother again?  How much longer after

11     the incident did you see your brother?

12        A.   We were in Babin Potok for 20 days.  He heard that we had fled

13     and survived, so he came to see us and to take us across the Drina to

14     Crni Vrh, to safety.

15        Q.   And is it at that reunion that he told you who had survived, and

16     you later told the investigators in 1995?

17        A.   Yes.  We believed that we were the only ones to survive since

18     there was no electricity in Babin Potok and it was impossible to hear the

19     news.  He told us of the persons who had survived and got out of the

20     house, that one of them was in Gorazde, the other one in Zepa.  Two or

21     three persons were in Zepa.

22        Q.   And did he tell you that the news of this incident was all over

23     Muslim radio?

24        A.   No, he didn't tell us that.

25        Q.   When you said that you couldn't hear the radio or anything, I

Page 1403

 1     wondered if he had heard that it was on the news.

 2        A.   No, he didn't hear that.  How could he have?

 3        Q.   And how --

 4        A.   He couldn't listen to the radio and he couldn't get in touch with

 5     anyone.

 6        Q.   But later on you spoke with VG-18, did you not?

 7        A.   I didn't.  She was in Zepa and I was at Crni Vrh.  We didn't see

 8     each other before 1993.  It was only then that I met up with VG-18.

 9        Q.   And did you discuss surviving the incident?

10        A.   Well, yes, we did.

11        Q.   And you should have seen everything VG-18 saw since you were in

12     the house all afternoon and all evening?

13             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  Calls for speculation as to what VG-18

14     saw.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Reformulate, Mr. Alarid.

16             MR. ALARID:

17        Q.   You should have witnessed many of the same experiences that VG-18

18     had since you were in the house with her all afternoon.

19             MR. WEBER:  Same objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, if you can't reformulate, move on to

21     another question.

22             MR. ALARID:

23        Q.   When you reunited, what did you talk about?

24        A.   We talked about what had happened to us.  We talked about how the

25     events unfolded, how we got to the house.  She told me about the people

Page 1404

 1     who were burnt in the house.  We talked about how we had left home, how a

 2     neighbour told us that we should move out to Kladanj, how they told us

 3     that they would accompany us there and how it all came to nothing, how we

 4     got to Pionirska Street in the Mahala neighbourhood and all that.

 5        Q.   And, ma'am, isn't it true that you still speak with her on

 6     occasion?

 7        A.   No, not really.  I don't have an opportunity to see her since we

 8     are quite far apart.

 9        Q.   Now, the next time you gave a statement was -- was 2001.  Isn't

10     that true?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And it was in 2001 that you added a -- a bit more detail.  Isn't

13     that true?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, in this statement you indicated that a Radomir Djuric came

16     to your village sometime before you were leaving and told you that the

17     White Eagles had arrived and you had to leave.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you had been hearing about the White Eagles for quite some

20     time, and there were rumours that they had burned down villages, killed

21     people, and taken girls away.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were you in the stadium, in the football stadium, when a Colonel

24     Jovanovic --

25        A.   No.

Page 1405

 1        Q.   Did you hear about that, when all the people were in the stadium?

 2        A.   I did, but I was in my village, in the village of Koritnik.  I

 3     wasn't there.

 4        Q.   And did you hear that General Jovanovic said that he controlled

 5     the White Eagles?

 6        A.   No, I don't remember that bit.

 7        Q.   Was Radomir Djuric a police officer?

 8        A.   Yes, he was, on the Serb police force.

 9        Q.   And were there any other Serb police officers that either

10     escorted you or directed you away from your village?

11        A.   He told us that he would escort us to Visegrad and that we would

12     be leaving by bus to Kladanj at 1200 hours.  However, he did not show up

13     on the following day when he was supposed to escort us, and we had to set

14     out for Visegrad on our own.  The Serb police force waited for us at

15     Visegrad.  They said that -- first they said that they would put us up at

16     Bikavac and then decided to direct us to Mahala where quite a few Muslims

17     had moved out of their homes and quite a few homes were empty.

18        Q.   And so it wasn't until you were already in Mahala at the request

19     of the police that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic.

20        A.   Well, yes.  He accompanied us to the area outside the hotel --

21     or, rather, to Pionirska Street, and he gave a piece of paper to one man

22     from Sase.

23        Q.   Did you get the impression that the man you knew as Mitar

24     Vasiljevic was doing things at the direction of the police that were at

25     the hotel in Visegrad?

Page 1406

 1        A.   I don't quite understand the question.

 2        Q.   Well, did Mitar seem like he was in a position of authority or

 3     that he was merely passing messages?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know.  He gave us the piece of paper.  Where

 5     exactly he was I didn't notice.  I was too frightened.  I know that he

 6     handed over that piece of paper to us in the house where it said that we

 7     shouldn't be afraid.  Now, whether he received orders from the Serb

 8     police, I really don't know.

 9        Q.   And when you saw -- how many police officers were armed and

10     outside the MUP before you moved on to the square?

11        A.   They were there.  I don't remember how many.  They milled around

12     the town, and there were some outside the police station.  I didn't pay

13     special attention to that.  I did see them around Visegrad.

14        Q.   And in -- when Mitar Vasiljevic and four other Serbs arrived and

15     gave the note, did you recognise the four other Serbs?

16        A.   No.  I was in the house then when the people who received the

17     note from Mitar.

18        Q.   So they only told you that Mitar had given the note.  You did not

19     witness this exchange?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  No, I didn't see that, but they passed it on from one

21     to the other.  That's it.  Some said that Mitar worked with his brother,

22     and so he hoped that we would go to Kladanj because Mitar knew the

23     brother.

24        Q.   Now, in your statement of 2001, you indicated that you did see

25     the four men that were with him and they all had camouflage uniforms.

Page 1407

 1     Are you saying you didn't see them now?

 2        A.   Well, I did because they were in front of the door.  They came

 3     later when Mitar and the other people were there.  And people said that

 4     they were in front of the door.

 5        Q.   Now, before it was -- when it was getting dark, there was no

 6     electricity in the home, so did you have any other way of lighting the

 7     inside of the home?

 8        A.   No, no.  It was outside.  The lighting came from the street

 9     outside.  That's how the house received its electricity.

10        Q.   Now, in your statement of 2001, you indicated that you knew Milan

11     Lukic very well.  He was born in 1967, and he was from a neighbouring

12     village, but yet in your testimony today you indicated that your sister

13     had to tell you that that was Mitar -- or excuse me, Milan Lukic.

14        A.   Well, yes, I knew him, but she said that it was Milan Lukic.  Of

15     course I knew him, and I recognised him.  But when he stormed into the

16     house and asked for valuables, money, and so on, shouting, I was afraid,

17     and in that general commotion and fear she said it first.

18        Q.   Yet the last time you'd really seen the Milan Lukic that you

19     think was when you were in primary school, and he was not yet a grown

20     man.  Isn't that true?

21        A.   I don't know understand what you just said.  I'm not following.

22        Q.   Well, if you're finishing primary school at 14 or 15 years of

23     age, doesn't that mean that you actually might have been even further

24     behind Milan Lukic if you were only one year behind him in age?

25        A.   I was 7th grade.  He was 8th grade.  My relatives went to the

Page 1408

 1     Prelovo primary school with him because they were the same age as him,

 2     and they remember very well.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He remembers them very well.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Prior to that night when you saw Milan Lukic in

 6     1992, when was the last time that you had seen him?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That evening when I saw him for the

 8     last time.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, no, before that.  Before that evening, when

10     was the last time you had seen him?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him there and then in that

12     house.  Before that I didn't see him.  I don't remember, but I had heard

13     that people were saying --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Never mind that.  Counsel is suggesting that the

15     last time that you saw Milan Lukic before that evening was when you were

16     in primary school with him.  Is that so?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I saw him around, but

18     I don't remember exactly when.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, she says that she might have seen him

20     around, but she doesn't remember well.

21             MR. ALARID:  I guess we'll --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

23             MR. ALARID:  I think we'll have to let the answer stand.

24        Q.   Now, I want to take you to after 11.00 p.m., after 2300 hours,

25     and there was some commotion and everyone was woken up and asked to

Page 1409

 1     leave, but in your statement of 2001 you say that "some in the group said

 2     that Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic and their group were supposed to

 3     kill us all.  I heard somebody from our group saying we should leave the

 4     house in a row one by one and walk to a nearby house."

 5             What do you mean by "someone in the group said that Milan Lukic

 6     and Mitar Vasiljevic were supposed to kill us all"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was it an announcement?  What did you hear?  Why were you

 9     leaving?

10        A.   They took away the girls to the hotel, Milan Lukic.  When we were

11     in our village of Koritnik we heard everything.  We heard what he was

12     doing and that he was taking girls away, and I know the ones that

13     survived.  And we were afraid of that, because we didn't think he'd do

14     anything to the women and children.  However, when they turned up at that

15     hour, that time, to separate the girls and take them to the Hotel Vilina

16     Vlas, that's why we decided.  And we were lucky to have saved our lives.

17        Q.   But isn't it true that the girls were supposed to be taken away

18     earlier in the day?

19        A.   Yes, after that.

20        Q.   And nothing happened at the house?

21        A.   Not in the house, but the ones they set aside, separated, they

22     said that's what would happen.  So we planned to take our chances.  But

23     some of the girls told us that they took them away to the house opposite

24     and then did what they wanted with them.

25        Q.   Now, isn't it true that -- well, what were these gentlemen

Page 1410

 1     wearing?  What was Milan Lukic wearing?  What was his ...

 2        A.   I think he was wearing a multicoloured -- multicoloured clothing.

 3     It was a long time ago.  He was wearing this clothing.

 4        Q.   What was the main colour in this multicoloured clothing?

 5        A.   Well, I don't remember.

 6        Q.   Did he have anything on his head?

 7        A.   No, he didn't, no.

 8        Q.   Did anyone have anything on their head?

 9        A.   Well, some people did.

10        Q.   Now --

11        A.   The one standing in front of the door with the moustache, he had

12     something on his head, some kind of cap.

13        Q.   And you indicated, though, that there were eight or nine Serbs,

14     including Mitar and Milan.  What about the other seven?  What were they

15     wearing?

16        A.   They were wearing the coloured clothes, those standing in front

17     of the door.

18        Q.   Did they have any hats on?

19        A.   Well, I don't remember that.  Some did.

20        Q.   Anyone in the group?

21        A.   Yes, Mitar Vasiljevic had a hat on.

22        Q.   You had seen him in that hat earlier in the day?

23        A.   Well, yes, from the hotel when he passed by the people.  Whether

24     he arrived before us or after us I don't know, but when he came to the

25     house he was in front of the door and people were saying that that was

Page 1411

 1     Mitar Vasiljevic, the people who had seen him.  They passed the word

 2     around.

 3        Q.   So this was -- again, you did not have personal knowledge of who

 4     this was but this is something that someone had told you?

 5        A.   Well, yes.  They told me that that was him personally, people who

 6     knew him better, the older people.  They said that it was Mitar

 7     Vasiljevic bringing in the note and so on.

 8        Q.   Is it possible that --

 9        A.   And I knew him.  He worked in Visegrad in the Panos Hotel.  I saw

10     him in town.  He would be in front of the hotel and so on.

11        Q.   Did you ever hear that Mitar Vasiljevic broke his leg falling off

12     a horse?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   If I were to tell you that Mitar Vasiljevic proved he was in a

15     hospital the night of this fire would that change your recollection?

16             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  The witness has answered the question

17     that was posed to her directly.  This calls for speculation --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   Why not?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a second.  An objection has been raised.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That never happened.  He never

23     broke his leg.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Don't answer, Witness.

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the objection is withdrawn.

Page 1412

 1             MR. ALARID:

 2        Q.   You answered, "that never happened.  He never broke his leg."

 3     Why do you say that?

 4        A.   Because he was there that evening and everybody saw him, and my

 5     whole family and the older people who knew him better than I did and

 6     everything.  That was not possible.

 7        Q.   Well, it's one thing for him to be there earlier in the afternoon

 8     in the square, but it's another thing for him to be there several hours

 9     later at the very end, and I'm asking you, are you sure, or are you just

10     relying on what other people have told you?

11        A.   I'm quite certain he was in front of the door as we left one by

12     one, and when he said to a man from my village that he didn't need any

13     shoes, that he could go barefoot, because he knew what would happen to

14     the people.  So he said, "You don't need any shoes."  He told him that he

15     could go barefoot.

16        Q.   So you're saying Mitar Vasiljevic is the one that told people

17     they didn't need their shoes or belongings?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Now, you indicate that the person you believe to be Milan Lukic

20     at that late hour was more than 30 steps away from you as you left the

21     house.

22        A.   Well, yes, yes.  He was in front of that house over there where

23     they met the people and burnt them in that house.  He moved around there

24     in that area.

25        Q.   And when you say 30 steps, is that 30 metres?

Page 1413

 1        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I didn't count.

 2        Q.   How many people left the house before you?  Were you in the front

 3     of the line or the back of the line?

 4        A.   No, I wasn't in front or at the back.  Well, I don't remember.

 5     There were people behind me, and there were people who had gone there.

 6     How could I remember things like that with all that fear?  How would you

 7     like it?  How would you feel?

 8        Q.   Well, what I'm getting at is that there's probably a lot of

 9     people in between you and the other house that are blocking your view,

10     and maybe you really couldn't see the guy that was down by the house in

11     the dark.

12        A.   Well, we saw -- as the column was moving, they followed the

13     people there up to the house, then they withdrew where the people were,

14     and the moustached person was in front of the door with a rifle.

15        Q.   And when you were able to slip away and go behind the shed, how

16     far away is that shed from the front door of the house you'd just left?

17        A.   I don't remember.  It was a long time ago, but it wasn't far and

18     it wasn't near.

19        Q.   And wouldn't it be true that the people that were actually

20     between you and the other house are what helped block your escape from

21     the view of the soldiers?

22        A.   Well, yes.  That's how we managed to escape.  Some were in front,

23     others were behind, and when the people were waiting outside the house we

24     managed to escape before.  We didn't go to the house.

25        Q.   And these same people would block your view of the house as they

Page 1414

 1     blocked your view from the soldiers?

 2        A.   Well, we saw them.  We saw them moving around amongst the people.

 3     We saw them as we were coming out.  That's how we saw them.  But then

 4     they went further off, because most of the people had already gone over

 5     there, but there was still some in the house left behind us.

 6        Q.   Do you remember what day of the week the 14th was?

 7        A.   The 14th?  I think it was a Sunday, but I'm not quite sure.  It

 8     was a long time ago.

 9             MR. ALARID:  No further questions.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  No questions for this

12     witness.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Then, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I have no questions.  I would just like

15     the record to reflect that Milan Lukic is wearing a blue patterned tie

16     today and Mr. Sredoje Lukic is wearing a red patterned tie.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Objection.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And what would be the basis for that?

19             MR. WEBER:  I'm just asking the record reflect that.  The witness

20     previously described in her testimony the ties that were being worn by

21     the witnesses during her identification.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, that would better come from the witness,

23     not than you.  You can't give that evidence.

24             MR. WEBER:  That evidence was already previously given.

25             MR. ALARID:  In that regard, Your Honour --

Page 1415

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, counsel.

 2             MR. ALARID:  The witness also identified a white shirt, and the

 3     record can reflect that Milan Lukic is wearing a blue shirt.

 4             MR. WEBER:  I'm just asking for the ties of whatever the record

 5     wants -- whatever they're wearing today, the record can reflect that.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why don't you put it to the witness again?

 7             MR. WEBER:  I'd be happy to, Your Honour.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, my microphone is out of use.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't a blue shirt.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, we have objection about the last words

11     of my learned friend Mr. Weber.  He's been speaking in plural, but we

12     never heard anything related to my client.  Not from direct examination,

13     not in identification --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's perfectly true, and I have suggested to

15     him that he should put these questions to the witness again in

16     re-examination.

17             MR. ALARID:  And all I would ask, Your Honour, is a half a dozen

18     questions on re-cross, considering the nature of the identification.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's a matter I'll determine.  Let's hear the

20     questions quickly.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Weber:

22        Q.   VG-78, you've previously identified an individual in court today.

23     Could you please point to that person?

24        A.   Well, the second person from this gentleman over here, the second

25     one is Milan Lukic.

Page 1416

 1        Q.   Okay.  When you say the second person, the second person from

 2     where?

 3        A.   From this first person, the second man.

 4        Q.   Are you referring to individuals in what row?

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Leading questions.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last row, up by the wall.

 7             MR. WEBER:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 8             MR. ALARID:  May I ask one question or two questions?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. ALARID:  Two questions, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  One question.

12             MR. ALARID:  It really needs two.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Two?

14             MR. ALARID:  Two questions.  I can only -- I have to preface it

15     with one.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Go ahead.

17                           Recross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

18        Q.   Ma'am, in your -- attached to your statement of 2001, you

19     identified a photograph of Mitar Vasiljevic, isn't that true?

20             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  That is outside the scope of redirect.

21             MR. ALARID:  The second question is the more important one,

22     assuming she recalls the identification.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, counsel is right, counsel for the

24     Prosecution.  I would allow you to ask something that would have arisen

25     from the re-direct exceptionally, but you are raising an entirely new

Page 1417

 1     matter.

 2             MR. ALARID:  I would ask leave of the Court to do so, Your

 3     Honour, in the interests of justice.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, quickly.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Yes.  Just for the record, Your Honour, that we have

 6     a permanent objection about identification in courtroom.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we have noted that, thank you.

 8             MR. ALARID:  And of course, we've made the same objection.  I was

 9     just going to ask her one more question.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we have noted that.  Proceed with the

11     question.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Ma'am, were you ever asked to identify a photograph of Milan

14     Lukic?

15        A.   No, never.  I never had an opportunity of doing that.

16             MR. ALARID:  No further questions.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

18     you for giving it, and you may leave now.

19             Unless any party has a matter to raise we will adjourn until

20     tomorrow morning, 8.50 a.m. [sic].

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day

23                           of September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.