Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1418

 1                           Tuesday, 9 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 7                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-101

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may begin, Ms. Sartorio.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The Prosecution called

13     VG-101 to the stand.  This witness has protective measures in the form of

14     a pseudonym and facial distortion.  I would like the court officer to

15     please pass the pseudonym sheet to the witness.

16                           Examination by Ms. Sartorio:

17        Q.   Witness, you've been granted protective measures by this Court

18     and thus we will be using a pseudonym rather than your name.  Your

19     pseudonym is number 101, Witness VG-101.  On the piece of paper that's in

20     front of you, can you confirm that -- just don't say the date, but

21     confirm that your name and date of birth are correct on that paper in

22     front of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could you also please sign this paper.

25             MS. SARTORIO:  I think the witness may need a pen.

Page 1419

 1             And may I ask that the court officer show the pseudonym sheet to

 2     the Defence and to the Chamber, and then we will ask that it be admitted

 3     in evidence.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the pseudonym sheet will become P93

 5     under seal.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I'd like to ask now the court officer

 7     to provide to the witness another reference sheet.

 8        Q.   And, Witness, this reference sheet contains the names of persons

 9     that you may be mentioning in your testimony, and next to the names there

10     are numbers, and I'd like to ask you to please kindly refrain from

11     mentioning any witnesses' names but, rather, refer to the sheet and to

12     the number that is assigned to the witness.  Do you understand this?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you'll receive the witness sheet in just a moment.

15             MS. SARTORIO:  And, Your Honours, this witness is a viva voce

16     witness.  We'll expect to complete her direct examination within one and

17     a half hours.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

20             MS. SARTORIO:

21        Q.   So you were saying yes with regard to the reference sheet;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Witness VG-101, in what village were you born?

25        A.   I was born in the village of Koritnik.

Page 1420

 1        Q.   And in what municipality is Koritnik located?

 2        A.   The village of Koritnik is in the municipality of Visegrad.

 3        Q.   And how far is the village of Koritnik from the centre of

 4     Visegrad?

 5        A.   Six kilometres away.

 6        Q.   Would you please describe for the Chamber your educational

 7     background, how many total years you went to school and what kind of

 8     school.

 9        A.   I attended school for 11 years, and I completed the vocational

10     school for a worker in the tourist industry, catering.

11        Q.   Now, were the first eight years of your schooling considered to

12     be primary school?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And then what was the next three years called?

15        A.   High school, except that it lasted for three years.

16        Q.   And what is your ethnicity?

17        A.   Muslim, Bosniak.

18        Q.   Now, would you look at the sheet in front of you, and I'm going

19     to ask you is Witness number VG-78, is this your sister?

20        A.   Yes, that is my sister.

21        Q.   And, Witness, could you please describe the ethnic mix of the

22     Koritnik community prior to the war.

23        A.   Before the war the population was mixed.  There were both Muslims

24     and Serbs living together as neighbours.

25        Q.   And can you give me the approximate percentages, if you recall?

Page 1421

 1        A.   Excuse me, I didn't understand.

 2        Q.   I was just asking if you knew the percentage between Serbs and

 3     Muslim residents, if it was 50 per cent and 50 per cent, or if you

 4     recall?

 5        A.   There were less Muslim people.  There were more Serbs.

 6        Q.   And before the war began, were there any conflicts between the

 7     Serb residents and the Muslim residents of Koritnik?

 8        A.   No, no conflicts.

 9        Q.   Can you describe what kind of relationship the two groups shared,

10     if any?

11        A.   The relationship was always a good one.  We socialised, lived

12     next to each other, visited each other.

13        Q.   Now, at this point in time I would like to direct your attention

14     to the 13th day of June in 1992 and ask do you recall that day?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  I will never forget it.

16        Q.   Okay.  And on the 13th what, if anything, occurred?

17        A.   Yes.  A neighbour of us, Djuric, Radomir, came and said that we

18     had to leave the village, that the army was coming over from Prelovo and

19     that they could no longer protect us.  He told us that by that time they

20     had gone through other villages burning houses and expelling people.  He

21     told us that we should join a convoy that was to go to Visegrad on the

22     14th of that month.

23        Q.   And when he said the army was coming, which army?

24        A.   The Serbian army.

25        Q.   And when he told -- you say, "He told us we should join a

Page 1422

 1     convoy."  Could you tell us who "us" is?

 2        A.   He said that a convoy was to be organised with six buses from

 3     Visegrad and that we were to join the convoy.

 4        Q.   And again when you say "we," do you mean -- please tell us who

 5     "we" is.

 6        A.   The Muslims from Koritnik.  He said that we all had to leave to

 7     join the convoy.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us how far away Prelovo is from Koritnik?

 9        A.   Five or six kilometres away.

10        Q.   Now, you were told this on the 13th.  Did you at some point

11     depart Koritnik as suggested?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And when did you do that?

14        A.   He said that we were to go to Greben on the 14th of June and that

15     a bus was to arrive to pick us up at 8.00 that day.  We all arrived in

16     Greben.

17        Q.   So you left Koritnik on -- before 8.00 in the morning on the 14th

18     of June.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And when -- you expected to be picked up by buses in Greben.  Do

21     you know where your final destination was supposed to be?

22        A.   We were told that we were to go to Kladanj.

23        Q.   And do you know what Kladanj is?

24        A.   I know it is a town, but I don't know where it is exactly.  I've

25     never been there.

Page 1423

 1        Q.   Do you know if it was occupied by Muslims or Serbs, or both?

 2        A.   I don't know.  They said that we were to go to Kladanj and that

 3     the Serbs from Kladanj were to come to our houses.

 4        Q.   So when you left Koritnik early in the morning on the 14th of

 5     June, how long did it take you to walk to Greben?

 6        A.   Half an hour on foot, because Greben is not far away from

 7     Koritnik.  We arrived on time, even before 8.00.

 8        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber how many -- approximately how many

 9     people were in your group and tell us if you remember the types of

10     people, men, women, children, et cetera?

11        A.   Yes.  I think that there were 48 or 50 of us.  There were

12     children, including a three-day-old baby, some children between 3 and 15

13     years of age.  There were girls, men, and women.

14        Q.   And can you tell us were all of the people in the group of

15     Muslim -- Bosnian Muslim ethnicity?

16        A.   Yes.  They were all Muslims, and we all hailed from the same

17     family.  We share the same last name.

18        Q.   Were any of the people in your group dressed in Bosnian army

19     clothing?

20        A.   No.  We were all in civilian clothes.

21        Q.   And were any people in your group armed with any type of weapons?

22        A.   No, nothing of that sort.

23        Q.   Now, when you arrived in Greben, was there a bus waiting for your

24     group?

25        A.   No, there was no bus.  Radomir told us that he will wait with us

Page 1424

 1     for the bus, but in the end he didn't turn up in Greben at all.

 2        Q.   So what did you and the group do next since you were in Greben

 3     and there was no bus?

 4        A.   We waited for the bus.  We spent quite some time there, although

 5     I don't know how long exactly.  In any case, we were there for a

 6     considerable length of time in Greben.

 7        Q.   Now, did the people in the group -- were they carrying anything?

 8        A.   Yes.  We had a lot of things with us, clothing, luggage, bags,

 9     and it was slowing us down.  The things were heavy and we couldn't carry

10     them.

11        Q.   So after you were in Greben for a considerable length of time,

12     then where did you go?

13        A.   Then we went to -- towards Visegrad, arriving in a place called

14     Sase.  We also spent a lot of time there.

15        Q.   And how long did it take you to get to Sase?

16        A.   Another half an hour, I'd say.  It is not too far away from

17     Greben.

18        Q.   Now, in Sase did anything happen or did you see any other

19     persons?

20        A.   Yes.  There were many soldiers there in camouflage uniforms,

21     sporting weapons, passing next to us.  Then a Serb told us that we should

22     go to Visegrad and that we could no longer stay there.  He told us that

23     we should go on so that we would reach Visegrad before it gets dark.

24        Q.   Do you remember the name of this Serb?

25        A.   No, I cannot recall what his name was.

Page 1425

 1        Q.   And when you say there were many soldiers there in camouflage

 2     uniforms, are you talking about Serb soldiers?

 3        A.   Yes.  These were all Serb soldiers.

 4        Q.   So then you continued your trek from Sase to Visegrad; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.  We all went towards Visegrad.  The Serb who told us

 7     to go said that he will go first at the head of the column in his

 8     vehicle.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.

10             Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise for interrupting, but I have a feeling

12     that the last two questions were leading questions, just to remind the

13     Trial Chamber.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  "And when you say there were many soldiers there

15     in camouflage, are you talking about Serbs?"

16             MR. CEPIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, apologise.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That is leading, so the answer is useless.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  I will rephrase the question, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

21        Q.   I need to ask you a question again.  When you referred to

22     soldiers that were in camouflage uniforms --

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the mike is on.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             MS. SARTORIO:

Page 1426

 1        Q.   Can you tell us where those soldiers were from?

 2        A.   I can't.  I don't know where they were from.  They were just

 3     there.

 4        Q.   Do you know what country they were from?

 5        A.   They were from the same country as myself.  These were local

 6     Serbs, the local Serbian army.

 7        Q.   And they were -- what colour was the camouflage uniforms they

 8     were wearing?

 9        A.   They wore camouflage uniforms, olive-drab in colour.

10        Q.   Now, when you left -- did you leave Sase at some point?

11        A.   Yes.  We went towards Visegrad.

12        Q.   And did you eventually reach Visegrad?

13        A.   We arrived in Visegrad, although I don't know at what time

14     exactly.  In the end we did arrive there.

15        Q.   Now, between your trek from Koritnik to Visegrad, did you ever

16     see any buses driving along the road on which you were walking?

17        A.   There was one bus that passed by us in Sase, and there were

18     people from the village of Vlahovici on it.  It passed by on the read in

19     the direction of Visegrad.

20        Q.   And can you tell us what kind of bus this was?

21        A.   It was a Centrotrans Transport Company bus.

22        Q.   Now, did you know -- did you see anyone or did you know anyone

23     who was on board of this bus?

24        A.   No.  It just passed by in the direction of Visegrad.  It did not

25     stop there.

Page 1427

 1        Q.   Now, when you arrived in Visegrad what -- where did your group go

 2     first?

 3        A.   We went down the main street in Visegrad.  Some Serb policemen

 4     and Serb soldiers were in front of the MUP building.  They told us to

 5     take Jondza Street next to the Drina in order to reach the Red Cross

 6     building.

 7        Q.   Can you describe for the Chamber the Serb policemen and Serb

 8     soldiers that you saw, in particular what they were wearing?

 9        A.   The Serb policemen had blue camouflage uniforms.  The rest had

10     camouflage uniforms of another colour.

11        Q.   Did anyone in your group speak with any of the policemen or

12     soldiers?

13        A.   No.  They just kept screaming at us, telling us that we should go

14     down Jondza Street in order to get to the Red Cross building.

15        Q.   I know it's been a long time, but can you remember any of the

16     words or anything -- any -- anything that they were saying to you in

17     particular, other than to go to the Red Cross?

18        A.   Yes.  They told us to go to the Red Cross building.  We took the

19     street, but the building was closed since it was a Sunday.  In front of

20     the new hotel there were other policemen and other Serbs in camouflage

21     uniforms.  They lined us up in pairs, insulting us, provoking us, yelling

22     at us.  From the village a dog accompanied us, and it was killed there.

23        Q.   I want to just stop you for a minute.  You said the Red Cross was

24     closed.  So I think you're jumping ahead.

25        A.   Yes, it was a Sunday.

Page 1428

 1        Q.   Where did you go after you discovered that the Red Cross was

 2     closed?

 3        A.   From the Red Cross building we arrived in front of the new hotel

 4     building.  We stopped in front of it.

 5        Q.   And then you just described some events that were going on.  Can

 6     you give us that description again in more detail, what you remember

 7     happened, if anything, to you at the Novi Hotel?

 8        A.   This Serb policeman lined us up in pairs.  They provoked us,

 9     yelling at us.  There was a dog that accompanied us from the village.

10     They killed it, and they forced a man that was with us to throw the

11     corpse off the bridge.

12        Q.   And when they did these things to you, were you standing outside

13     of the hotel?

14        A.   Yes.  We were in front of the hotel.

15        Q.   And at any point in time did you or anyone in the group go inside

16     the hotel?

17        A.   No.  They put us in the hotel garden next to the bridge so that

18     we would no longer stand in the street.

19        Q.   And as they were provoking and yelling at you, did you hear them

20     talking amongst themselves?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Were any of these men armed?

23        A.   Yes, all of them.

24        Q.   Now, at some point did something else happen?

25        A.   Yes.  They were discussing among themselves where to put us,

Page 1429

 1     whether in the garden or to go to Bikavac.  During that time -- and a

 2     Serb arrived who told them to send us off to the neighbourhood where

 3     there was some abandoned Muslim houses.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness mentioned the

 5     name of the Serbian person, but we failed to pick that up.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:

 7        Q.   Could you tell us, if you know, the name of the neighbourhood

 8     where they were talking about, that they were talking about?

 9        A.   It was Mitar Vasiljevic who told us to go to Mahala to Pionirska

10     Street to the abandoned Muslim houses there.

11        Q.   And are you -- were you familiar with the Mahala settlement on

12     Pionirska Street?

13        A.   Yes, we were.

14        Q.   And how were you familiar with this area?

15        A.   I knew about it because some of my village relatives lived there.

16        Q.   So did the group then embark off for -- towards Pionirska Street?

17        A.   Yes.  We were in a column in pairs.  They told us to go down the

18     main street in Visegrad towards Mahala.

19        Q.   And when you got to Mahala, what street were you on?

20        A.   Pionirska Street.

21        Q.   And how long did it take?  Approximately how long did it take you

22     to walk to Pionirska Street?

23        A.   Perhaps 15 to 20 minutes.  Not much.

24        Q.   And when you got to Pionirska Street, what happened next?

25        A.   When we arrived there a female relative of mine was there in a

Page 1430

 1     house with her under-aged son and mother-in-law.  She came out and said

 2     that she could not take us in, that there were too many of us and that we

 3     should go to some of the other houses.

 4             Mitar Vasiljevic followed us, gathered us around him and he said

 5     we can no longer live together.  "You are to go to Kladanj, to the Muslim

 6     houses there, and the people from there will go to your houses."  He told

 7     us that we should all enter a house that was there at that point.

 8        Q.   After Mitar Vasiljevic said this to you, then what happened next?

 9        A.   We all entered the house.  It was he who showed us which house to

10     go to.  He was present.  We all entered the house.

11        Q.   Now, this -- just so the record's clear, you said that he told

12     you all to go to Kladanj, but you were still on Pionirska Street at this

13     time when you entered a house; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  He told us that we were to leave the next morning early on

15     the 15th of June at 6.00.  He said that we were late for the buses that

16     day.

17        Q.   Do you know whose house your group was occupying at that point in

18     time?

19        A.   I don't know exactly.  I think the person's name was Ragib.

20        Q.   Now, this Mitar Vasiljevic person, could you please tell us what

21     he was wearing?

22        A.   He was wearing an olive-drab uniform, a long black overcoat, and

23     a black hat.

24        Q.   And did you know him prior to this time?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1431

 1        Q.   How did you know him?

 2        A.   From the times when I attended school in Prelovo.  He resided

 3     there, and I saw him there often.

 4        Q.   Did you see him anywhere else?

 5        A.   Yes.  He worked in Visegrad as a waiter in a hotel.  I don't know

 6     which one exactly.  That is where I occasionally saw him as well.

 7        Q.   So when you saw him at this time on the 14th of June, did you

 8     recognise him or did you learn his identity through his name?

 9        A.   Yes.  I recognised him immediately.

10        Q.   Well, when you got into this house, did Mitar Vasiljevic stay or

11     did he leave?

12        A.   He left.

13        Q.   Did he say anything else to any of the occupants in the house?

14        A.   Yes.  He gave a piece of paper to a man that was with us, some

15     sort of an assurance that no one should touch us.  He told us that if

16     Serbian police arrive that we should show them our IDs.  He also said

17     that we were first to be put on the buses the next morning to leave for

18     Kladanj.

19        Q.   And at some point did Mitar Vasiljevic leave the house?

20        A.   Yes, he did.

21        Q.   And then what did the group do at this point when you were inside

22     the house?  Was everyone in one room?  Can you please describe what it

23     was like?

24        A.   Yes.  We enter the house.  We were drenched from the brain that

25     had been falling the whole day.  We changed out of the wet clothes and

Page 1432

 1     sat in the house.

 2        Q.   Now, at some point in time did anyone else come to the house?

 3        A.   Yes.  As we were sitting in the house Milan Lukic entered the

 4     room where I was.  He was the first one.  He kicked open the door with

 5     his boot and was followed by three more Serbs.

 6        Q.   And can you tell us approximately what time this was, if you

 7     recall?

 8        A.   I don't know precisely, but it was around 5.00 or 6.00 p.m.  He

 9     came right after Mitar Vasiljevic.  I think less than half an hour had

10     elapsed before their arrival.

11        Q.   Do you know if Milan Lukic and three -- the other three persons

12     you describe as Serbs, if they arrived in any vehicle?

13        A.   I don't know.  I didn't hear a vehicle stop.  It was the main

14     road, and the vehicles passed constantly.  I saw them first as the door

15     was kicked open, but I don't know if they arrived in a car.

16        Q.   Now, before I ask you some questions about Mr. Lukic, I would

17     like to ask you if you can tell us -- describe the other three persons

18     whom you've said were Serbs, describe for the Judges.

19        A.   Yes, I can.  The other Serb was somewhat short than Milan Lukic.

20     He sported a black moustache and had black curly hair.  The other Serb

21     had blonde or light brown hair.  He was a bit taller and of somewhat

22     heavier built than Lukic, and a third one seemed the youngest among them.

23     He was 18 or perhaps even younger.  He was tall, gangly, and the youngest

24     of the group.

25        Q.   Did any of these four men disguise their faces?

Page 1433

 1        A.   No.  Their faces were clearly to be seen.

 2        Q.   And how many of these men did you recognise when you saw them?

 3        A.   I recognised Milan Lukic.

 4        Q.   Now, I would like to ask you some questions about how it was you

 5     were able to recognise Milan Lukic.  Did you know him from before?

 6        A.   Yes.  I had known him very well.  We went together to the primary

 7     school in Prelovo.  He was only a year older.  We went together to the

 8     secondary school as well.  We didn't go to the same class.  We were in

 9     part of the same class, but we went to the same school.  So I had known

10     him for a number of years.

11        Q.   You went to school for 11 years; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you see him often during these 11 years that you were in

14     school?

15        A.   Yes.  I'd see him every day in the hallways and on the school

16     grounds.  I'd always come across him.

17        Q.   Now, did you -- what age were you when you finished secondary

18     school?

19        A.   I was 18.

20        Q.   And how old were you in June of 1992?

21        A.   I was 23.

22        Q.   Now, did you see Milan Lukic between your age of 18 and 23?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And where would you see him?

25        A.   I saw him round the town.  I'd see him in the village of Prelovo

Page 1434

 1     where dances or parties were organised and attended by Muslims and Serbs

 2     alike.  That's where I'd see him, because both Serbs and Muslims would

 3     attend these balls or dances.

 4        Q.   Now, between the time you were in school to 1992 did you notice

 5     whether his appearance changed and, if so, in what way?

 6        A.   No.  Perhaps slightly.  He may have grown stouter, but the face

 7     remained quite the same.

 8        Q.   Now, I'll take you back to the house on Pionirska Street.  When

 9     these men entered the room, what did they say?  What did -- did any of

10     them say anything and, if so, whom and what did that person say?

11        A.   Yes.  They placed a bag on the table and said, "Money, gold,

12     place all of it on the table.  If we find anything on anyone, we will

13     kill you all."

14        Q.   Do you recall who said that?

15        A.   Milan Lukic did.

16        Q.   Now, did you hear these four men speaking with each other,

17     calling each other any type of names?

18        A.   No, I didn't hear that.

19        Q.   Did you hear them speaking to any of the other occupants in the

20     house and using their names?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   I may have asked you this and I apologise, but were you all in

23     one room or several rooms?

24        A.   Yes.  There was a living-room.  There was another room or perhaps

25     two more rooms and a hallway.  We couldn't all fit into one room, and

Page 1435

 1     people were split among the three rooms or between the two or three

 2     rooms.  I don't know how many there were.

 3        Q.   Now, after Milan Lukic said, "Money, gold, place all of it on the

 4     table, what did you do?

 5        A.   We gave whatever we had.  We turned it over, the money, the gold.

 6     There were even foreign currency banknotes, Deutschmarks and Austrian

 7     shillings and -- so that Milan even commented upon that fact by saying

 8     something to the effect, "Oh, we even have foreign currency banknotes

 9     here."

10        Q.   And what about your jewellery?

11        A.   Yes.  Whatever we had, we placed in the bag.

12        Q.   Now, after this happened or while this was happening, did

13     anything else happen?  Did these -- did anything else happen?  Did these

14     men order -- okay.

15        A.   Yes.  When they were finished with the looting, then the

16     moustached Serb with black curly hair started separating women by ones or

17     by twos.  We were supposed to go over to the next room with him and take

18     all of our clothes off.

19        Q.   And what was the purpose of that?

20        A.   He said that we should come along with him for an examination,

21     that we should take our clothes off in order for him to make sure and see

22     clearly that we had not withheld any of the money or jewellery.

23        Q.   And where was Milan Lukic while this was being -- the searches

24     were being conducted?

25        A.   They were on the staircase leading to the front door of the

Page 1436

 1     house.  That's where they stood while he was searching us.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I need to clarify.  You say, "They were on the staircase

 3     leading to the front door of the house.  That's where they stood while he

 4     was searching us."

 5             Now, who was searching you?

 6        A.   We were being searched by the moustached Serb with curly hair.

 7        Q.   And does "they" refer to the other three men?

 8        A.   Yes.  They were there in the house.  Whether they were on the

 9     staircase or in another room while he was searching us.  And as he

10     searched some of the women, he instructed us to go to a specific room

11     after having been searched so that he might keep track of the women he

12     had searched and the ones he had not.

13        Q.   And when you're using the pronoun "he," you're referring to the

14     man with the moustache?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   So do you know if all the women in that group were searched?

17        A.   Yes, all of them.  He wasn't looking for money at all.  This was

18     just a way for him to humiliate us as much as he could.  He only wanted

19     us to strip naked.  He didn't even bother to go through the clothing to

20     look for what he was purportedly looking for.  He was sitting on a chair

21     laughing at us while we were forced to appear naked before him.  That was

22     terrible humiliation for us.

23        Q.   Can you tell me approximately how long these strip searches took?

24        A.   It went on for quite a long time.  There were quite a few of us

25     women and girls.  It took some time for us to take our clothes off and

Page 1437

 1     then put them back on.  So it did take quite a while.

 2        Q.   Did you see -- at any point did you see Milan Lukic in the room

 3     where women were being searched?

 4        A.   No.  Only the moustached Serb was in that room, and he was the

 5     only one searching us.

 6        Q.   Do you know if there were searches going on in other rooms of

 7     which you didn't have any visibility for?

 8        A.   We all had to appear before him in that room.  All the women had

 9     to.

10        Q.   So what happened -- excuse me, another question.  Do you know if

11     any of the men were searched?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   No, you don't remember, or no, they weren't?

14        A.   No.  Only the women and girls were searched.

15        Q.   Now, after the strip searches what, if anything, happened next?

16        A.   When he was all done with it, then the moustached Serb told

17     Lukic, "I found a good one for you."  Lukic then asked him, "What size

18     does she wear?"  I don't know what it meant.  I only know that they

19     laughed after he said that.  Then they took a girl outside of the house,

20     and they all went with her.  They went away with her.

21        Q.   And without saying her name, did you know who this girl was?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, I know her very well.  She was married to a relative

23     of mine.  She was 15 years old and had only been married for a year.

24        Q.   Now, after they went away with her did -- did -- eventually did

25     she return and, if so, whom was she with when she returned?

Page 1438

 1        A.   Yes.  They brought her back to the house.  At one point I was

 2     sitting on the ground in the kitchen and there were quite a few women

 3     around me.  Milan Lukic entered the room and told me, "Get up.  Are you

 4     wearing jeans?"  He was able to see full well that I didn't have any

 5     jeans, but nevertheless he said, "Get up.  Are you wearing any jeans?"  I

 6     stood is up, and we looked each other in the eye and gazed into each

 7     other's eyes for five minutes.  Then the moustached Serb came along and

 8     said, "That's not her."  He got into the room and took another girl out.

 9     He brought her over to Lukic.  When Lukic saw her, since he had known her

10     well, he said, "Well, well, who do we have here?  How come you're here?

11     What are you doing here?"  He put her arm -- put his arm around her, and

12     they all went out with the girl.

13        Q.   And you say you knew who the second girl was as well.  You don't

14     have to say her name, but you knew her?

15        A.   Yes, I knew her well.  Lukic had been taking her away before that

16     as well.  She had run away from him and had tried to hide with us in the

17     village.  That's how she came to be in our group as we set out for

18     Visegrad.

19        Q.   Now, when the first girl was brought back, did you have a chance

20     to speak with her or see her?

21        A.   Yes.  I was sitting next to her.  She was crying, and she told me

22     that they had raped her.  She said, "God forbid that that should happen

23     to you."  They asked her, "Why didn't you smear something on your face

24     and then they would not have raped you."  And they said, "It's not going

25     to be just you.  All of the women and girls will experience the same."

Page 1439

 1        Q.   Did she say which of the men told her this?

 2        A.   Milan Lukic told her as much.

 3        Q.   Now, did you have a chance to -- no.  After the second girl was

 4     taken out, did she return to the house as well?

 5        A.   Yes.  She returned without telling me anything.  She was weeping

 6     and lay down, covered herself with a blanket and stayed silent.

 7        Q.   Now, can you tell me approximately how long all of this took from

 8     the time you say Milan kicked down the door until this point in time?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.

10             MR. ALARID:  And I would object to the characterisation of

11     kicking down the door.  That's a misstatement of the evidence.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  I'll rephrase the question.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't think -- I don't believe the evidence

14     was very much different, from my recollection.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say that the door was

16     knocked down.  I said that it was opened.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The door was not knocked down.  It

19     was opened.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, proceed.

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   The question was approximately how much time had elapsed between

24     the time the door was opened and this point in time?

25        A.   I don't know exactly.  We couldn't keep track of the time.  We

Page 1440

 1     didn't have a watch on us to be able to tell the time.  It was difficult

 2     to establish how much time had elapsed.

 3        Q.   Do you recall if it was getting dark outside?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Now, what happened next?

 6        A.   When they brought the girl back, they took away a woman who had

 7     three children.  They brought her as far as the stairs, but her daughter

 8     was crying and holding, gripping her.  They couldn't separate them, so

 9     they brought them back into the room.

10        Q.   Did anything else happen?

11        A.   Next they said that they were going somewhere to have roast of

12     lamb and something to drink and warned us that we should all stay

13     indoors.  As they left the house, it started to get dark.

14        Q.   Now, who said that they were going somewhere to roast of lamb and

15     something to drink?

16        A.   Milan Lukic said that.

17        Q.   Now, when you say you were all warned to stay indoors, can you

18     recall exactly what was said to you?

19        A.   Yes.  They said that nobody should leave the house, that we all

20     had to stay indoors.  We weren't even allowed to come out the front door.

21     We all had to stay in the house.

22        Q.   And when you say "they," again could you please identify the

23     speaker if you're able to?

24        A.   Milan Lukic and the other Serbs who were with him.

25        Q.   Did any of the men state that they would be back?

Page 1441

 1        A.   Yes.  They said, "We'll be back, and when we come back," that's

 2     something that they told the victim that they raped, "we don't have the

 3     time now, but everybody will get their turn."

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's another leading question, you know,

 5     Ms. Sartorio.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  I'll restate the question.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we have the answer already, but "Did any

 8     of them state that they will be back," which is I imagine a point of

 9     issue, but you told the witness the answer.

10             MS. SARTORIO:

11        Q.   Well, my question is who said "we'll be back," if anyone?

12        A.   Yes.  All of them said that they would be back.

13        Q.   And the victim that they raped, you stated that she said

14     something one of them had said.  Did you tell you which one had said that

15     to her?

16        A.   Milan Lukic said that.

17        Q.   How were you feeling at this time?

18        A.   Horrible.  I wouldn't wish it upon anyone to feel that.

19        Q.   Now, after the men left the house --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I can understand that, Ms. Sartorio, stated that

21     she said something one of them had said and said Milan Lukic said that,

22     but what is it he said?

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Line 23 -- excuse me, page 23, line 24 -- or 25.

24     "Yes, they --"

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Oh, I see.  It's the same issue of being back.

Page 1442

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, at that -- no.  At that point, Your Honour,

 2     she's talking about something -- something they told the victim that they

 3     raped.  "We don't have the time now, but everybody will get their turn."

 4     My question was:  "Did the victim tell you, Witness, who said that to

 5     her?"

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  She told me that it was Milan

 8     Lukic who had told her that.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:

10        Q.   Now, I asked you how you were feeling.  Did you talk to any of

11     the other people in the house after the men left?

12        A.   We talked to each other, but we stayed silent rather than

13     talking.

14        Q.   Did anyone talk about who these men were?

15        A.   Yes.  A man was saying -- they were all saying that they knew

16     them.  We all knew who those men were and what they were.

17        Q.   And can you tell us who -- when you say, "We all knew who those

18     men were and what they were," what do you mean by that?

19        A.   Well, we already knew by that time what the Serbian army was

20     doing to the Muslim people around Visegrad.  It was all very clear to us.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'm talking about these specific four men, whether anyone

22     in the room discussed who they were.

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Now, at some point in the evening did anything else happen?

25        A.   Yes.  I don't know what time it was.  It may have been at around

Page 1443

 1     11.00 or 12.00 p.m.  A car -- or rather, 12.00 a.m.  A car pulled over in

 2     front of the house.  It was quite noisy, the engine of the car.  They

 3     flashed the lights at the windows and at the front door of the house and

 4     told us to get out of that house and move over to another house.

 5        Q.   Now, let's just take it a little bit slower.  When you say a car

 6     pulled over in front of the house, did you actually see this?

 7        A.   I didn't see that, but I heard the car.  Some of the people who

 8     were by the window could see the car out in the street quite clearly.

 9        Q.   And were the people in front of the window say anything about who

10     was in the car?

11        A.   No.  They weren't able to see who was in the car.

12        Q.   Okay.  And then after the car arrived what was the next thing

13     that happened?

14        A.   They said that we should come out of that house and move over to

15     a different house.  They told us that we needn't bother to put our shoes

16     on.  We could go barefoot because we were only changing houses.

17        Q.   Now, when you say, "They said we should come out of the house,"

18     who is "they," please?

19        A.   Yes.  The Serbs who arrived said that.  In the doorway there was

20     that same moustached -- moustached Serb who shone his flashlight torch

21     toward the interior of the house and told us that we should get out of

22     the house.

23        Q.   So that's the first person you saw?

24        A.   Yes.  He was outside the front door of that house.

25        Q.   So then what did you and the group do?

Page 1444

 1        A.   The people were panic-stricken for a moment.  There was commotion

 2     in the house.  Some moved to fetch their belongings, although we were

 3     told not to take any belongings with us.  At one point I got out onto the

 4     balcony because I was entertaining the idea of jumping out of the

 5     balcony.  I wanted to avoid facing them at any cost.  However, the house

 6     was too big.  It was two floors up, and I didn't dare to jump, so I got

 7     out of the house with the others.

 8        Q.   Now, so far you've seen the man with the moustache at the door.

 9     Did you hear any of the other -- any other persons?

10        A.   No.  Not right there outside the front door, and that's where he

11     was.  For a brief moment I saw Mitar Vasiljevic behind him.  I put my

12     boots on, and it took me quite a while to get my boots on, and by the

13     time I did only the man with the moustache was standing outside the door,

14     and he was standing there all that time.

15        Q.   At some point in time did you exit that first house?

16        A.   Yes.  I went out.  He pointed in a certain direction and said,

17     "Go down that way."  In front of me at some distance I could see a blonde

18     Serb whom I described.  He stood there with a large torchlight lighting

19     the road we were to take.  He was also shedding some light on us, and one

20     could see well the whole area.  He said that we should go towards that

21     man who was down the street.

22        Q.   Just so -- again so the record is clear, at the beginning of your

23     answer you said, "He pointed in a certain direction."  Are you talking

24     about the man with the moustache at that point?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.  He said, "Go down there," where the blonde Serb was

Page 1445

 1     and where there was light.  He held a torchlight lighting our way as we

 2     were approaching him from the direct of the house.

 3        Q.   And I'm going to show you a photograph in just a moment, Witness,

 4     so you can identify where --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise for interrupting.  Just one technical I

 7     think error in the transcript.  Page 27, line 15.  I think that it was

 8     the answer, not the question.  Just for clarification of transcript.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  I agree with that.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             MS. SARTORIO:

13        Q.   Now, did you recognise the person whom you describe as the blonde

14     Serb holding the light?

15        A.   Yes.  It was the same person who came to the house with Lukic as

16     they were looting and taking money and jewellery away from us.

17        Q.   And -- so what happened next?

18        A.   I went in that direction.  Some people were in front of me.  I

19     was halfway there, and I knew that if I were to go into the light, to the

20     blonde man, that there was no way I would survive.  I never feared death,

21     and I didn't run away.  The only thing I was afraid of was rape.  I

22     thought that if I went down there that they would separate the women and

23     girls, as they had before.

24             I turned back to the house and looked at the Serb who was in

25     front of the door, the one with the moustache.  He noticed me hesitating

Page 1446

 1     and then made a few steps in my direction.  I turned around again and

 2     went the same way.

 3             The blonde Serb shed some light on me, and as he was putting the

 4     torchlight down, his eyes went down as well.  I made use of that moment,

 5     and I ran to the left some ten metres, and I hid behind a shed.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop you there, please.  Thank you.

 7             Now, before you used that moment to run to the left, did you see

 8     what was going on in front of you?

 9        A.   Yes.  I saw the people coming near the blonde Serb entering

10     that -- the other house.  There was a girl standing next to him.  She had

11     some medical problems and was not attending school.  She probably did not

12     understand where she was supposed to go, and she just kept standing there

13     looking at him.  The others in front of me were all entering the house.

14        Q.   Now, other than the blonde man did you see anyone else that was

15     not part of your group?

16        A.   Sorry, I did not understand.

17        Q.   You saw the man with the moustache, and then you saw the blonde

18     man.  Did you see anyone else?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I saw Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic standing in

20     front of the house where the people were going into.  They were in the

21     lit area.  They were looking at the house at the moment when I ran for

22     the shed.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, at this point I would like the court

24     officer to please bring up Exhibit P77.  It's a photograph.

25             Is that as large as we can make it?  Okay.

Page 1447

 1             And perhaps to assist the witness.  I'm going to ask her to make

 2     some markings on this photograph.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:

 4        Q.   Witness 101, have you seen this photograph before?

 5        A.   Yes, I have.

 6        Q.   I'd like you to make some markings for me and I'm going to ask

 7     you, first, do you see Pionirska Street on this map?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Could you please draw a line along the street and put a P for

10     Pionirska, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Now, do you see in this photograph the first house that you and

13     the group were in?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Could you put a 1 on the roof of that house, please.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Now, do you -- if you recall where the door was on that house

18     approximately, could you put a V for door in Bosnian.

19        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

20        Q.   So was the door actually -- it's on the -- it fronts that little

21     street or paved little alley; correct?  Is that right?

22        A.   Here.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now, could you please label the second house which you

24     said people were walking into before you escaped from the group and put a

25     2.

Page 1448

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And if you know where the door of that house was could you label

 3     that with 2V -- or a V is fine, if you recall.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Now, can you also identify in this photograph the shed that you

 6     ran to, if you're able, and put an S on it, please.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Now I'd like you to draw, if you would, a line with an arrow at

 9     the end for the -- where the people walked from the first house to the

10     second house.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Now, can you draw a circle at the point where you left the group

13     and ran for the shed.  Just put a dot.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Now, could you also tell us approximately where the man with the

16     moustache -- you want to make a correction?

17        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

18        Q.   Can we erase the first one then?

19             Now, can you show us in this photograph where the man with the

20     moustache was standing as you were leaving the house, approximately?  And

21     I'd like you to mark that with an M -- M1 for Man 1.

22        A.   M1 or just 1?

23        Q.   What did you put down there?  It's a little confusing now.  Can

24     we mark the door again, start over with the door and then where the man

25     with the moustache -- could you mark a V for the door.

Page 1449

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Okay.  And I think it might be easier to put an X for the man

 3     with the moustache.  I'm going to ask you to use a different colour pen

 4     at this point and put an X.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Just for the record the markings thus far have

 7     been in blue and now we're using red.

 8        Q.   So the X is where the man with the moustache was standing.

 9             Now, can you mark an X2 where the second -- the man, the blonde

10     man with the flashlight was standing.  Red, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   And now could you mark an ML where you saw Milan Lukic.

13        A.   Which letters?

14        Q.   ML for his -- his name.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And was Mitar -- where was Mitar Vasiljevic in relation to Milan

17     Lukic?  You can put an MV.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Now, do we have another colour, a green perhaps?

20        Q.   And while we're waiting for that, was there light coming from any

21     of the houses, if you recall?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Are we green at this -- could you put an X at the houses -- or

24     house where you saw light coming from.

25        A.   [Marks].

Page 1450

 1        Q.   And you drew an arrow for the -- is that for the direction where

 2     the light was shining?

 3        A.   Yes.  This area was all lit up.

 4        Q.   Do you know what kind of device it was that was lighting up this

 5     area?

 6        A.   There were torchlights around.  As for the light from the house,

 7     maybe there were some bulbs there, but it was a proper light.

 8        Q.   And now before we mark and enter this as an exhibit, can you

 9     indicate for us on this map where -- what direction you went?  Did you

10     eventually leave the shed?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How long were you in the shed before you left?

13        A.   We were there for a brief period of time, five to ten minutes.

14        Q.   And using the green marker, which is fine, could you indicate the

15     route that you took after you left the shed.

16        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, I'd ask that this photograph be

19     marked as an exhibit in evidence, entered into evidence.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P94, Your Honours.

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   Now, after you left the shed, approximately how long did you

24     travel to somewhere, and what was your final destination?

25        A.   We followed the creek for a while and then crossed over to the

Page 1451

 1     right side.  There were large garden fences there, tall fences.  Having

 2     crossed that, we entered a forest.

 3        Q.   Now, were you with anyone at this time?

 4        A.   Yes.  My sister was with me.

 5        Q.   And --

 6        A.   Who had followed me behind the shed.  It was myself and my

 7     sister.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us whether you were -- were running at this point or

 9     moving -- how fast were you moving from the shed?

10        A.   Yes.  We moved quickly to flee as quickly as we could, to get as

11     far as possible.  However, we didn't know which way to turn.  We couldn't

12     go anywhere.  They were everywhere in Visegrad.  We wanted to reach the

13     forest, feeling it was the safest place.  It didn't matter to us much

14     what would happen in the forest, whether we would die or kill ourselves.

15     We were just desperately trying to reach the forest.

16        Q.   Now, as you were running away from the shed did you hear

17     anything?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   When we entered the shed, we heard shots coming from the house

20     next to the creek.  I remember telling my sister, "These people are

21     killing our mother, our mother-in-law, and our brother's two children.

22     They didn't do anything wrong."  It hurt so much I wouldn't wish anyone

23     to experience that.  It was horrific.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  At this time, Your Honours, let me bring up

25     Exhibit P90.  And this will be my last few questions, or do you want to

Page 1452

 1     take a break?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That is fine.  Let us go on.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In line 21 it should

 4     be sister-in-law.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So we have another Judge, but I think we'll take

 6     the break now.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm almost finished.  Perhaps five minutes, Your

 8     Honour.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Let's finish.

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.  Exhibit P90, please.  This will be

11     under seal.  It is under seal.

12        Q.   Now, Witness, looking at this exhibit that is before you, are you

13     able to read this document and, if so, can you tell me what it is?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   And what is this?

16        A.   These are the names of people who were killed in the house, the

17     names of my family members, relatives who were killed there.

18        Q.   And these are the people that were part of the group that left

19     Koritnik?

20        A.   Yes.  These are all the people I had arrived with from the

21     village and with whom I was in Visegrad.

22        Q.   Now, if you could move the first page up a little bit.

23             I'm going to ask you if on this list -- have you seen any of the

24     people on this list since the 14th of June?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1453

 1        Q.   And if you're going to mention them, could you please mention

 2     their pseudonyms if it applies.

 3        A.   Very well.  All right.  I have seen four people who survived the

 4     burning of the house.  It is VG-085, VG-013, VG-038, and VG-078.  It is

 5     my sister.  As well as VG-018.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The first pseudonym

 7     is VG-084.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:

 9        Q.   And are you aware of anyone who has seen any of the other persons

10     named on this list since the 14th of June?

11        A.   Yes.  Two other men survived the house; however, they are no

12     longer among the living.  They died their natural deaths.

13        Q.   One more question.  Witness, at this time I would like you to

14     take a look around the courtroom, please, and look at everyone, and other

15     than myself and Mr. Stewart, Esq and Mr. Groome, Esq, ask you if you

16     recognise anyone in this courtroom.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. CEPIC:  Just for the record, usual objection.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it's noted.

21             MR. ALARID:  And we would join as well, Your Honour.

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   Take your time and look at everyone.

24        A.   Yes.  I don't need any additional time.

25        Q.   Who do you recognise?

Page 1454

 1        A.   I know Milan Lukic.  I recognise him.  He is sitting there next

 2     to the first person to the left.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And just so it's more clear, do you see two men on

 4     either --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I'm not going to ask -- I think he's --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm not going to ask that question.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  I was afraid -- I apologise for my fast reaction.  I

10     was afraid that something will be leading in this question.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  I just want -- it won't be.

12             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise.

13             MS. SARTORIO:

14        Q.   Now, on the -- do you see four men sitting up in that second row?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  I see four men.

16        Q.   And the two men on the outside on each side, they're wearing blue

17     shirts.  Do you see those men?

18        A.   Yes, I do.  They are not the ones.  Milan Lukic is wearing a

19     white shirt.  He has a headset, and he's writing something just now.

20     That is Milan Lukic.

21        Q.   Is he the man wearing glasses or is he not wearing glasses?

22        A.   No, he is not wearing glasses.

23        Q.   Are you able to see the colour of his tie, Milan Lukic's tie?

24        A.   I can't see his tie.  He is bending forward.  I cannot see any

25     tie.

Page 1455

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, may the record reflect that the

 3     witness has identified Milan Lukic?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:

 6        Q.   One last question.  Witness 101, is this the man who you saw at

 7     the house on Pionirska Street on the 14th of June and who was outside --

 8             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, no.  I don't think that's leading.  She's

10     just identifying the context.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the man.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll take the break now.

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So this is Mr. Alarid now.

17             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. VG-101.

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   I apologise that I can't speak to you by your proper name.  It

22     seems disrespectful to use these numbers but we have to do this to

23     protect everyone's identity, and so I hope you understand that I don't

24     mean any disrespect by calling you VG-101.

25        A.   Yes, that's fine.  That's fine.

Page 1456

 1        Q.   Now --

 2             MR. ALARID:  Briefly, Your Honour, I would like to go into

 3     private session.  I'm going to mention a couple names, and I don't have a

 4     pseudonym sheet prepared, and so could we go into private session

 5     briefly?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1457











11  Pages 1457-1459 redacted. Private session.















Page 1460

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

10             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant please bring up the marked

11     photo P94.

12        Q.   Now, looking at the photograph, ma'am, I'd like you to focus on

13     the -- the roof that you marked with a green X and also with a blue S.

14     Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Now, isn't it true that this is a single building, a single shed

17     that is hidden by a tree that has grown --

18        A.   No, no.

19        Q.   So it is two --

20        A.   No.  These are two smaller structures.  It's a shed -- the shed

21     where I ran to and another building that was lit up.  So these are two

22     small buildings.

23        Q.   Now, ma'am, the home that you wrote a number 1 on, isn't it true

24     there was no electricity in that home?

25        A.   Yes, there was no electricity.

Page 1461

 1        Q.   And isn't it true that the roof that you've marked with a green X

 2     is not a home, it is just another shed?

 3        A.   Yes.  It resembled a shed.  It was a roofed-in structure that was

 4     opened on one side.  It may have been a shed or a garage.  I don't know

 5     exactly.

 6        Q.   And if there was no electricity in the house at number 1, highly

 7     likely there was no electricity in that garage or shed.  Isn't that true?

 8        A.   There was electricity there, and the entire area was lit up.  I

 9     don't know where the light came from, but it was there.

10        Q.   So lit up by like floodlights?

11        A.   It seemed as if the entire area had been lit up by way of bulbs

12     that were somewhere there.  Plus they had the torches with them.  So the

13     entire area was lit up.

14        Q.   But a torch is an interesting kind of light, because it only

15     lights up where the torch is pointed.  Isn't that true?

16        A.   Yes.  They used the torches on our way from the large house to

17     where it is marked in blue, because that large house was quite dark, and

18     they wanted us to come out in the lit-up area where they could clearly

19     see us.

20        Q.   Now, was there floodlights or buildings lit up anywhere else

21     other than this garage or shed and the torchlights from the assailants?

22        A.   Yes, because there were Serb homes on Pionirska Street, and some

23     of the light came from those homes.

24        Q.   But they're on the other side and off the photograph, not in

25     view.  Isn't that true?

Page 1462

 1        A.   I don't exactly know where they are.  I only know that we could

 2     see the light from those houses.

 3        Q.   And the lights would be just coming out of ordinary windows,

 4     bedrooms and what-not and would not have -- would not have flooded the

 5     area with light but merely been in the house.

 6        A.   Yes.  The usual lighting in the house.

 7        Q.   And when you were leaving the home, being told to go to the

 8     number 2 house, how many people had left before you, because you

 9     indicated you had to put your boots on.

10        A.   Yes.  I put my boots on.  I don't know how many had left before

11     me, but I know that quite a few had and had already gone to the other

12     house.

13        Q.   Now, when you say they'd already gone to the other house, would

14     it be fair to say that if they were even gone to the other house they

15     weren't all inside?  You weren't walking by yourselves across this open

16     area.  Isn't that true?

17        A.   Yes.  They were reaching the blonde Serb who was in the lit-up

18     area.  They first reached him and then proceeded to enter the second

19     house.

20        Q.   And those people would have been in between you and the people

21     that you noted as ML and MV.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   They went ahead of me and reached the lit-up area where the

23     blonde Serb was.  At the time, I was halfway there.  They, on the other

24     hand, reached the Serb who stood in that lit-up area.

25        Q.   And the other people that were in this procession, they helped

Page 1463

 1     block the view of your escape.  Wouldn't that be true?

 2        A.   No.  No, they didn't block me.

 3        Q.   I'm not saying block you.  I'm saying they blocked, let's say,

 4     the blonde Serb from seeing that you were -- and your sister were able to

 5     escape.

 6        A.   They couldn't block my view because they didn't linger there by

 7     his side.  They immediately proceeded on to the other house.  As they

 8     reached the man, they went past him and on.  They wouldn't stop there.

 9        Q.   But this was a procession of 70 people, so that procession went

10     on for quite some time.  Isn't that true?

11        A.   Yes.  But we did not all come out of the house in a group.  We

12     went by twos or in single file.  There wasn't a crowd of people in one

13     small space.  We did not obstruct each other.

14        Q.   Now, you indicated that they were everywhere.  I'm assuming these

15     soldiers.  What do you mean "they were everywhere," as you were headed

16     towards the shed?

17        A.   Yes.  I meant the Serb soldiers, that they were everywhere, in

18     the surrounding streets, on Pionirska Street, in Visegrad in general.

19     Even a check-point, a barricade, was placed at the end of Pionirska

20     Street toward the Rodica hill.  They wanted to obstruct free movement

21     there.

22        Q.   Was this -- was this barricade there earlier in the day when you

23     proceeded to the Mahala neighbourhood?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   So it appears that the barricade was set up to maybe prevent

Page 1464

 1     people from escaping down Pionirska Street if other people knew about

 2     this tragedy?

 3        A.   Because two women tried to go to their family's home, and they

 4     tried to -- they told them that they couldn't go over there and told them

 5     to head back.

 6        Q.   And this was between the time when you had arrived at Pionirska

 7     Street but before it had got dark or when?

 8        A.   This was at the outset.  They wanted to see their homes but

 9     weren't able to get past that point, and they came back.

10        Q.   And again was that before it got dark and after you arrived?

11        A.   Yes.  Before it got dark.

12        Q.   And so people in the homes were able to leave the homes?  There

13     was no guards left all day after Mr. Vasiljevic told the people to go

14     there and gave that one gentleman a piece of paper?

15        A.   No.  We weren't able to go down the street because barricades had

16     been erected.  Had we been able to pass through, we would have gone to

17     the houses of our relatives there, but we weren't able to.

18        Q.   So the soldiers had set up barricades after you had been led to

19     Pionirska.

20        A.   I don't know when it was exactly that they were erected.  The

21     barricades may have been there from before.

22        Q.   Well, you didn't notice them walking into the neighbourhood.

23     Isn't that true?

24        A.   No.  No.

25        Q.   Now, when you went to the shed, you went with your sister or did

Page 1465

 1     you go with anybody else?

 2        A.   I didn't go into the shed.  I went behind the shed.  My sister

 3     was following behind without me noticing that.  As soon as I slipped away

 4     behind the shed, I heard her moving behind me.

 5        Q.   And isn't it true that your sister stayed close by you that whole

 6     day?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, at these barricades, were the soldiers there police or

 9     military?

10        A.   I don't know.  I didn't go.  Two other women did and saw that.  I

11     didn't see that.

12        Q.   Did they mention whether or not they were police or military?

13        A.   I don't remember.

14        Q.   Now, you indicated that there were soldiers everywhere.  Can you

15     estimate how many soldiers were in town and in and around the Pionirska

16     Street neighbourhood?

17        A.   Well, I couldn't possibly know that.

18        Q.   I don't -- I'm not trying to get you to name an exact number, but

19     maybe give me a round number like more than a hundred, more than 500, or

20     whatever you might think.

21        A.   No.  I don't want to speculate, and I don't know the exact

22     number.  I don't know.

23        Q.   Now, you did see both police and military in town as you were

24     coming in.  Isn't that true?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1466

 1        Q.   And you saw most of the police in the square when you first

 2     arrived and at the hotel.  Isn't that true?

 3        A.   Yes.  In front of the SUP too.  That's where the police

 4     headquarters was.

 5        Q.   Now, after you were able to escape behind the shed following the

 6     green line, you're saying that you went down into the creek bottom and

 7     moved up?  Is that true?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And I look at this photograph that you've marked on, and it

10     appears that the vegetation, the trees and the bushes and the creek are

11     very thick and might have been able to hide your presence down there.

12        A.   No.  I wasn't hiding there.  I didn't want to stay there for

13     another five minutes.  I wanted to get away from the place as soon as may

14     be.

15        Q.   You misunderstood me.  What I meant by that was is that the

16     vegetation would help conceal you as you made your way up the creek.

17        A.   Yes.  We couldn't be spotted because it was dark.  It was

18     night-time.

19        Q.   And so the bottom of the creek was not lit up by any lights.

20     Isn't that true?

21        A.   No, no.  It was dark.

22        Q.   And on direct examination the Prosecution -- or you testified

23     that you first started hearing shots when you were still behind the shed.

24        A.   No, that's not true.  I said that I heard the first shots when I

25     got into the forest.

Page 1467

 1        Q.   Understood.  Okay.  I misunderstood you.  Now, you're saying you

 2     saw Mitar Vasiljevic in front of the house.  Are you --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Are you certain you're not mistaken?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Well, isn't it true that you'd not seen him there since earlier

 7     in the afternoon when he gave the piece of paper to Muho?

 8        A.   I saw him in the evening, that's true.

 9        Q.   And that was before it got dark?

10        A.   In the evening.

11        Q.   Did you hear that Mitar Vasiljevic broke his leg on the 14th of

12     June?

13        A.   That's not true.

14        Q.   If he broke his leg at 5.00 in the afternoon, is it possible that

15     you're mistaken about seeing him later in the evening, around midnight?

16        A.   I was not mistaken, and he did not break his leg.  That's not

17     true.

18        Q.   He never broke his leg?

19        A.   No.  Well, I don't know.  Maybe he did at some point, but he

20     definitely did not on that day.

21        Q.   If he broke -- brought in a lot of medical records and doctors

22     and X-rays --

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   -- would that change your mind?

Page 1468

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  Again he's asking if a

 2     witness brought in medical records.  He could -- that's not a proper

 3     question.

 4             MR. ALARID:

 5        Q.   It would not change your mind?

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour, the same -- I object to

 7     the question.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just explain the basis for the objection.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  The basis for the objection is it's not -- if he

10     brought in a lot of medical records and doctors and X-rays, and what he's

11     getting at is again what he's been doing in the past, which is putting --

12     putting another witness's statement or what another witness might do

13     before this witness and asking this witness to draw an opinion as to

14     whether if a witness did that it would change her mind.  He can put the

15     proposition to the witness that if there were medical records -- hold on

16     one moment.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

17             The basis of the objection is that there's no -- there's no

18     evidence that there were any medical records here, in her testimony or

19     anywhere in the trial for this witness, and he's drawing information out

20     of thin air and putting it to the witness as a hypothetical question.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree, Mr. Alarid.  It really invites

22     speculation more than anything else.

23             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, I guess one of the reasons I think

24     it's somewhat relevant is because this witness has testified in the Mitar

25     Vasiljevic case --

Page 1469

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I have ruled, so please move on.

 2             MR. ALARID:

 3        Q.   Now, when you did run from area and you ran left to the back of

 4     the shed, I'm assuming you covered that ground very, very quickly, as

 5     quick as you could.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And once you were behind something that blocked your view, both

 8     of them and you, I'm sure you wanted to stay hidden.  Isn't that true?

 9        A.   Before I hurled myself to the side I was standing right there and

10     was able to take in fully what was taking place around me.

11        Q.   The question I asked you, ma'am, is when you hurled yourself to

12     the side, you probably made that movement very quickly.  Isn't that true?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And when you got -- and when you got behind the shed you wanted

15     to stay hidden and, of course, not be seen by anyone else.

16        A.   Yes.  I was lying behind the shed.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the extra microphones please be switched

18     off.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   And when you -- how far away was this wooded area that you heard

21     the first shot?

22        A.   I don't know exactly.  We followed the creek but not for long,

23     and then went alongside garden fences before we reached the forest.  It

24     wasn't that far off.

25        Q.   Was it more than a hundred metres?

Page 1470

 1        A.   I don't know exactly.

 2        Q.   Did the shooting seem distant?  Something to help you put it in

 3     perspective.

 4        A.   No.  It seemed close.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like you to describe what everyone was wearing.  Can you

 6     do that?  What was the man in the moustache wearing?

 7        A.   They had camouflage uniforms on.

 8        Q.   And what was the primary colour of the camouflage?

 9        A.   The camouflage uniforms had a mixture of yellow and brown.

10        Q.   Was the man with the moustache wearing anything on his head?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Was he armed?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And the man that you say was Mitar Vasiljevic, how was he

15     dressed?

16        A.   He had an olive-grey uniform and a black overcoat reaching all

17     the way to the ground and a black hat.

18        Q.   Now, it had been raining earlier and he was wearing that overcoat

19     because of the rain.  Isn't that true?

20        A.   I don't know, and I'm not particularly interested in why he was

21     wearing that.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please don't ask questions like that.  As you

23     know, the witness can't answer them.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   You were all wet because of walking in the rain that day.  Isn't

Page 1471

 1     that true?

 2        A.   Yes.  It rained the whole night and the whole day.

 3        Q.   Was it still raining at midnight when you were able to get away?

 4        A.   Yes, it was, the whole night.  As I was fleeing with my sister

 5     through the forest, it rained throughout the night.

 6        Q.   And was it actually raining while people were moving from one

 7     house to another?

 8        A.   Yes, it was.

 9        Q.   Now, when the people were first told to move from one house to

10     the other you said that there was panic and confusion, and you went to

11     see if you could jump off a balcony.  Were you upstairs or downstairs

12     when the men first came?

13        A.   We were on the floor of the house.

14        Q.   The first floor, ma'am, or the second floor?

15        A.   The second floor.

16        Q.   And so you were up there -- were you asleep when they first

17     arrived or were you awake?

18        A.   No, we were not asleep.  We were awake.

19        Q.   Now, the moment it got dark in that house, I'm assuming that

20     there was no light, and between that time no one came back after dark,

21     between midnight and earlier in the day?

22        A.   Excuse me.  I did not understand.

23        Q.   It was a bad question.  I apologise.  There was no electricity in

24     the house; correct?

25        A.   There was no electricity.

Page 1472

 1        Q.   And I'm assuming -- what time did it get dark?

 2        A.   It started getting dark around 6.00 or 7.00.  I don't remember

 3     exactly.

 4        Q.   And between the time it got dark and the time the men came to

 5     move the people, had any one of those men come back in the middle, after

 6     dark?

 7        A.   Yes.  They came to tell us to move from one house to the other.

 8        Q.   And before that time and in between when it got dark, did anyone

 9     come back to the house for any reason?

10        A.   Excuse me, could you please repeat?  I do not understand the

11     question.

12        Q.   Between the time when the men came and asked people to move from

13     one house to another and the time it got dark, did anyone come back to

14     the house?  Basically, after dark did anyone come back until you were

15     moved?

16        A.   Before it got dark is when they came, and just as it was starting

17     to get dark they left.  The next time they returned it was already dark.

18        Q.   And that's at the end when they asked people to move?

19        A.   No.  They came once we arrived in the house.  Lukic was there

20     with another three Serbs right after we got into the house, both before

21     it was dark and after.

22        Q.   Now, when the car grow up -- drove up, you heard that it was --

23     you heard it because it was very loud?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Had this car -- had this loud noise -- had you heard it before?

Page 1473

 1        A.   I don't remember.

 2        Q.   Do you remember what kind of car it was?  Did you ever see it?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   At the end of the night was there more than four Serbs at the

 5     house?

 6        A.   There were four Serbs.

 7        Q.   And that's it?

 8        A.   Sorry, the big house?

 9        Q.   When you were asked as a group to move from the big house to the

10     other house, there was just the four Serbs?

11        A.   In front of the big house and the other house I could see four

12     people.  Other victims saw -- I don't know.  I saw four.

13        Q.   And that's all you ever saw that evening was four?

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honours.  Asked and answered

15     several times.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Move on, Mr. Alarid.

17             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Avoid comments.

19             MR. ALARID:  Did I make a comment, Your Honour?  I apologise.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe the question was in the form of a

21     comment.  That's my interpretation of it.  So just move on.

22             MR. ALARID:  Okay.

23        Q.   Now, in your direct examination a little bit earlier, you stated

24     that, "We all know who those men were and what they were.  We knew what

25     the Serbian army was doing."

Page 1474

 1             What did you mean by that?

 2        A.   We knew what they had been doing, that they were killing Muslims,

 3     expelling them from towns and other villages.  The -- we knew they had

 4     the power in their hands as well as the weapons, that they could do with

 5     the Muslims whatever they wanted to and they were.

 6        Q.   Before that date had you heard stories and rumours about Milan

 7     Lukic or Mitar Vasiljevic?

 8        A.   Yes.  A man from the group spoke with Mitar and knew him well.

 9     There was another woman who spoke with Mitar as well.  He told her about

10     her brother, Osman Kurspahic.  He told her that he was taken away and

11     transferred to Sarajevo to safe territory.  He also said that we will get

12     to Kladanj and that she could see for herself that her brother was still

13     alive.  However, things did not go in that direction.

14        Q.   Was Mitar Vasiljevic armed that evening?

15        A.   Yes, he was.

16        Q.   When you first saw him in the daylight was he armed?

17        A.   Yes, he was.

18        Q.   Now, during the time in the house from when you first got there

19     in the afternoon all the way into the evening, did your sister stay with

20     you the whole time or did you get separated at any time?

21        A.   No.  We were together all the time.

22        Q.   Isn't it true that none of the men in the house used names with

23     each other to identify each other?

24        A.   They may have been using names, but I didn't hear them.

25        Q.   You didn't hear anyone come in and introduce themselves as if ...

Page 1475

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   Now, you indicated that you knew Milan Lukic because you went to

 3     school with him.  Isn't that true?

 4        A.   Yes.  I knew him very well.

 5        Q.   Now, you were a grade behind him.  Isn't that true?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   But would it be fair to say that you hadn't seen him since

 8     secondary school?

 9        A.   I didn't see him frequently, but I did.

10        Q.   Well, can you recall the last time you would have seen Milan

11     Lukic in town before the war?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And if we could use April of 1992 as when the war started, when

14     was the first time you had seen Milan Lukic or who you believed to be

15     Milan Lukic after the war?

16        A.   I saw him on the 14th of June in Visegrad, in Pionirska Street.

17        Q.   And so going backwards in time, can you recall the circumstances

18     that would have been the last time you saw Milan Lukic before the war?

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, asked and answered.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let her answer it.

21             Can you remember when last you saw Milan Lukic before the war?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

23             MR. ALARID:

24        Q.   Now, you indicated on direct examination that his appearance had

25     changed perhaps slightly but the face was still the same.  What kind of

Page 1476

 1     things had changed slightly?

 2        A.   While he attended school he was thinner.  Later, he appeared to

 3     have gained some weight.  However, the features of his face remain the

 4     same.  The rest is the same.

 5        Q.   What about his haircut?

 6        A.   The same.

 7        Q.   And so when you knew him in high school he had the same haircut

 8     that he had in Pionirska Street?

 9        A.   Perhaps slightly different.  When he was at school, his hair was

10     parted to one side, but at Pionirska Street it didn't appear to be the

11     case.  It was changed slightly.

12        Q.   Isn't it true that Milan Lukic as a young man had long hair at

13     all times?

14        A.   No, never.

15        Q.   Now, when you went to school with Milan Lukic, did you guys have

16     the same homeroom teacher as in primary school?

17        A.   The same teachers.  There were two or three different teachers,

18     but it's the same people.

19        Q.   Isn't it true that there are two shifts at school?

20        A.   Yes, but sometimes we would be together in the first or the

21     second shift.

22        Q.   And what year did you finish your high school or secondary

23     school?

24        A.   I finished it in 1986.

25        Q.   And do you remember your homeroom teacher in high school?

Page 1477

 1        A.   In high school we didn't have a single homeroom teacher.  We had

 2     different teachers.  You have homeroom teachers in elementary school

 3     only.

 4        Q.   Now in primary school did you go all the time in Prelovo?

 5        A.   Yes.  The teacher's name was Dragan Simic from Prelovo.

 6        Q.   And is that was from which grade to which grade?

 7        A.   Up to the fourth grade, between the first and the fourth grade it

 8     was Dragan Simic.  From the fifth up to the eighth there were different

 9     teachers.

10        Q.   And isn't it true that some children from Rujiste went to

11     different primary school for the first four years?

12        A.   No.  No, because the school in Prelovo was just next door

13     basically.  It was the closest school to them.

14        Q.   To Rujiste?

15        A.   Yes.  Rujiste is close to Prelovo.  The school was almost at

16     their doorstep.  Rujiste is close to Prelovo.

17        Q.   How far is the primary school Prelovo to your village in

18     Koritnik?

19        A.   Five or six kilometres.

20        Q.   And how far -- what about Klasnik?  Was there a school in

21     Klasnik?

22        A.   I don't remember.  If there was one, it was for the children of

23     Klasnik, not for the children of Rujiste.  Klasnik was rather far away

24     from Prelovo.

25        Q.   And isn't true that Rujiste is near Klasnik, only three or four

Page 1478

 1     kilometres away?

 2        A.   No.  Rujiste is closer to Prelovo than Klasnik.

 3        Q.   Did you know a teacher named Edina Bosno?

 4        A.   Yes, from Prelovo.

 5        Q.   Are you sure she wasn't in Klasnik?

 6        A.   She may have been, but she taught the children from Klasnik.

 7        Q.   And isn't it true that the children in the machine school went to

 8     school at an opposite shift than you did in secondary school?

 9        A.   There were two shifts, the first and the second.  We saw each

10     other.  Sometimes we share the same shift, sometimes not, but we always

11     saw each other.

12        Q.   Now, of the gentlemen that first came earlier in the day, you

13     said that there was a young boy, tall and gangly.  Did you recognise this

14     boy?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you know his name?

17        A.   No, I did not.  It was the first time I saw him.

18        Q.   And I asked you if you recognised him, and at first you said yes.

19        A.   No.  I said I did not recognise him.  I keep saying that, that I

20     did not know him.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The transcript does have you answering that

22     question with yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I said that I didn't know the

24     youngest of them.  I said that he was tall, thin, and the youngest of the

25     group.

Page 1479

 1             MR. ALARID:

 2        Q.   Now, when Mitar Vasiljevic was seen at the beginning before you

 3     went to the Mahala neighbourhood, was he armed then as well?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, before that, you were being abused by police officers at the

 6     hotel.  Isn't that true?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How could you tell they were police officers versus other

 9     soldiers?

10        A.   Because policemen wore blue camouflage uniforms.  It was police

11     uniform -- it had been police uniform since before the war.

12        Q.   And the -- everyone at the hotel was wearing blue camouflage?

13        A.   No.  There were those in other coloured camouflage uniforms as

14     well as the uniforms of the former JNA.  There were several different

15     types of uniforms.

16        Q.   Can you estimate how many men and soldiers comprised this group

17     of people?

18        A.   No.  There were many going in and out of the hotel, going up and

19     down the street.  I did not count them.  I was in fear.

20        Q.   And I'm not asking you to count them.  I'm asking more of a round

21     and rough estimate.

22        A.   No.  All I know is that there were many.  I don't know how many.

23        Q.   When Mitar Vasiljevic first approached your group, how close were

24     you able to get to him, next to him?

25        A.   We were quite close, perhaps 10 to 20 metres.  He came to the

Page 1480

 1     garden, stood in front of us and told us to go to Pionirska Street.

 2        Q.   Did you -- did he ever appear intoxicated or drunk?

 3        A.   Well, I do know he was an alcoholic.  As to whether he was

 4     inebriated at that moment, I don't know.

 5        Q.   And how had you heard that he was an alcoholic?  Had you known

 6     that before that day, or did that come to your attention after that day?

 7        A.   No.  I used to see him at school -- at the school always drunk.

 8     His wife Milojka worked in a shop called Granap in Prelovo.  He was

 9     always there, always drunk.  That's how I used to see him.

10        Q.   When you describe someone as drunk -- I mean, some people will

11     drink and they'll look fine.  How would you describe appearing drunk?

12        A.   I don't want to describe that.  I'm not interested in that.

13        Q.   Well, I'd ask you just to describe Mitar when he was drunk.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.  Mr. Alarid, the cross-examination

15     appears to be meandering and wandering.

16             MR. ALARID:  Well, to be honest, Your Honour, I'm going through

17     her prior testimony somewhat, and there were some references in the prior

18     testimony, even though they didn't come out quite as much today.  Of

19     course I'm going through Mitar Vasiljevic's testimony, and there was some

20     descriptions as to alcoholism and what-not, and I was just wondering.

21     I'm sort of just moving backwards and hoping to finish relatively soon.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How soon?

23             MR. ALARID:  When are we taking a break, Your Honour?

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  5.35.

25             MR. ALARID:  Probably a little bit after the break, but not that

Page 1481

 1     long.  I don't think I'll go to the end of the evening.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but be a bit more focused in the

 3     questioning.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Now, how far -- how far away is the hotel from the square where

 6     you first encountered police?

 7        A.   It's right close to the square.  The hotel is on the square.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And so was it the same police that you first encountered

 9     entering the square that were also at the hotel throwing insults at you

10     and your family?

11        A.   Some policemen were in front of the SUP.  Another group of

12     policemen awaited us in front of the hotel.  I don't know whether it was

13     the same people, though, or two completely different groups of policemen.

14        Q.   Now, you stated on direct examination that they were discussing

15     where you should go, one of two options.  Did it appear --

16        A.   Yes.  They shouted at us, telling us to go to the Muslim houses

17     there, and they were discussing amongst themselves where they should send

18     us.

19        Q.   Did it appear that they knew you were coming, or was your arrival

20     on the square a surprise?

21        A.   No.  To me, it appeared that they had known we would come.  They

22     seemed to wanted to --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

24             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.  Again just one

25     intervention.  In transcript I cannot see -- I think that witness

Page 1482

 1     mentioned location Bikavac, but I cannot see anywhere in the transcript.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Was that in her last answer?

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Before the last answer, before the last one.  About

 4     the locations and options.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you mention Bikavac, Witness?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In relation to what?  Would you just tell us.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a neighbourhood called Bikavac

 9     in Visegrad close to the hotel.  It is a neighbourhood of Visegrad called

10     Bikavac.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

12             MR. ALARID:

13        Q.   Now, I'm going to take you back to the beginning of when this --

14     you left your village.  Isn't true that it was actually a police officer

15     that came to you in the village and told you all that you had to leave,

16     threatening you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And was -- can you name that police officer?

19        A.   Yes.  His name is Radomir Djuric.

20        Q.   And isn't it true that Ilija Gavrilovic was also a police

21     officer?

22        A.   Ilija went to Visegrad before we did with another person by the

23     name of Dragomir Grujic.  They took my relative's car and went there

24     before we did.  When we were at Greben, they told us, "You, the Turks,

25     should move.  You need to go to Visegrad, and no one is to leave it

Page 1483

 1     alive."

 2        Q.   How did they come in possession of your relative's car?

 3        A.   They just took it.  They came to the village and took the car.

 4        Q.   And when they took -- was this before they asked you to leave?

 5     Was this before the 13th?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   How long before?

 8        A.   I don't remember how long before, but I do know for a fact that

 9     they seized it.  Other than that, they would come to the village and

10     cherry-picked our possessions, just take them over to their own houses

11     under the pretext that they would be taking care of the stuff while we

12     were away.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, endeavour to finish by the break,

14     which is at 25 minutes to 6.00.

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   Do you know who the chief of police was at this time?

17        A.   Drago Gavrilovic was.

18        Q.   Was he also a -- was he also a member --

19        A.   I think.

20        Q.   Was he also a member of the SDS party and the Crisis Staff?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And when these people, these police were cherry-picking your

23     possessions, how long had this been going on before you were forced from

24     your homes?

25        A.   It was not the policemen.  It was our neighbours, Serbs, who

Page 1484

 1     would be taking our belongings, and it was throughout that day, the 13th

 2     of June, that they kept coming to our homes and taking stuff away back to

 3     their homes.

 4        Q.   And did this include Dragomir Gavrilovic?  Drago, I mean.

 5        A.   Yes.  Dragomir.

 6        Q.   Did it also include Drago?

 7        A.   No.  No.

 8        Q.   When they told you that they were -- you had to leave your homes,

 9     isn't it true that they told you it was other Serbs from nearby villages

10     putting pressure?  Is that what they told you?

11        A.   Yes.  They said that the Serbs from Prelovo were exerting

12     pressure on them, that they would be coming to our village and that we

13     could no longer stay there.

14        Q.   And when Ilija had taken the automobile from your cousin, had

15     they given any receipt or confirmation that they had in fact taken the

16     car?

17        A.   No.  No, nothing of the sort.

18             MR. ALARID:  That would conclude my examination, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

20             MR. ALARID:  And the only thing I would do as a final matter,

21     although it doesn't require the witness, is that we introduce the

22     witness's statement to the OTP, 21st of March, 2001, which has been

23     uploaded as 1D10-1480, and the prior testimony of the -- trial testimony

24     of the witness has been 1D10-1498.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You want to have those admitted?

Page 1485

 1             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, they will become Exhibits number

 4     1D36 and 1D37 respectively, both under seal.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  No questions for this

 7     witness.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  May I have one moment, Your Honour?  May I have

10     one moment?  Thank you.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MS. SARTORIO:  Just a couple of questions, Your Honour.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:

14        Q.   Witness, you were asked about a person named Edina Bosno.  Do you

15     recall being asked about that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And could you tell us again who this person is?

18        A.   I heard that she was a teacher and that she resided in the

19     village of Prelovo.

20        Q.   Do you know what school she taught at?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know if she taught any kids -- any children who came from

23     Klasnik?

24        A.   She probably did, because she did not teach in Prelovo.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 1486

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  No further questions.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

 3     you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, what is your position with

 7     witnesses?

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we had expected that this witness would

 9     take the majority of the day.  The next witness is Mitar Vasiljevic.  I

10     know that Mr. Domazet was speaking with him all day today.  I'm not sure

11     if Mr. Domazet has concluded his discussions with him.  I can attempt to

12     check that over the break if Your Honour would wish to begin his evidence

13     in the last session.  I expect, Your Honour, that my examination --

14     actually, I know my examination will take an hour and a half, and I think

15     we will be able to conclude it tomorrow and the next day, but I'll leave

16     it to the Court as whether you want me to inquire whether he's available

17     in the next session.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We'll stick to the schedule.  We'll hear

19     him tomorrow, in which case we are adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.28 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day

22                           of September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.