1 Thursday, 11 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yesterday the Defence made an application for
6 the admission of some hospital records. The Trial Chamber had the
7 records marked for identification and stated that it would give a
8 decision on their admission today. I do so now.
9 If the Defence wish to call evidence on Pionirska Street, they
10 may do so when they present their case, and at that time they of course
11 may present any evidence relating to Pionirska, including that of
12 Mr. Vasiljevic and the hospital records. Those witnesses would then be
13 open to cross-examination by all the parties, and this answers the point
14 raised by Mr. Cepic yesterday. The hospital records, therefore, remain
15 marked for identification.
16 Would you call the next witness, Mr. Groome.
17 Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission may
19 I take this unique opportunity while Mr. Vasiljevic is still in this
20 court and for the economy of time I'd like you to give me permission to
21 ask Mr. Vasiljevic two or three questions which stem from document P97
22 and its link to the Lukic family, and that would -- and then we wouldn't
23 have to recall him during the Defence case and have all the costs and
24 expenditure incurred then.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, we're going to allow it, but confine
2 it to this request that you made, that is questions relating to the Lukic
3 family, which did arise yesterday. If you seek to go beyond that, then
4 that falls within the parameters of the ruling that I just gave. You
5 would then have to call your own witness. But I'm not certain whether
6 he's immediately available.
7 Mr. Alarid?
8 MR. ALARID: I was actually going to speak on an unrelated
9 matter, Your Honour, given the --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Let us conclude this first.
11 MR. ALARID: Yes.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear from the court deputy about the
14 [Trial Chamber and court deputy confer]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's expected in 30 minutes, so we'll start the
16 other witness, then, yes.
17 And now Mr. Alarid.
18 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I do want to raise just some overall
19 general concerns with the Chamber with regards to sort of how the trial
20 is progressing as well as sort of the way this trial is manifesting in
21 motion, yet we're still doing a large amount of preparation.
22 The OTP has had eight filings this week. Three of the motions
23 came with over a hundred pages and are deadlines to file responses to
24 these and what's most prejudicial, Your Honour, is these motions involve
25 the addition of nine new witnesses, changes on the witness list, things
1 like that. We're really having a hard time keeping up at this point
2 considering the voluminous nature of the filings, the addition of new
3 information, the constant disclosure of new information that involves
4 mostly B/C/S and untranslated materials, and we really feel that at this
5 juncture there is a real threat of prejudice to the Defence considering
6 the way the pace of the trial is actually very fast combined with the
7 fact that we're still having to deal with I think what are essentially
8 pre-trial issues during the trial, and we were wondering if the Court
9 would entertain a one-week recess so we can -- so we can answer all
10 these. I mean a lot these are going to come due at the end of next week
11 considering the two-week deadline for ordinary filings.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: But this overlaps with a motion that is in front
13 of me from you.
14 MR. ALARID: Yes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: To amend the trial sitting schedule so that we
16 would sit for four days.
17 MR. ALARID: And I'm trying to find a solution, Your Honour, to
18 our --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us see if we can find a solution to
20 that, because that may resolve if not wholly, then partially the problem
21 you have.
22 I'm to ask the Prosecutor how he responds to the motion for trial
23 sittings of four days a week.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecutor is preparing a written
25 response that we intended to file today, but I can certainly address it
1 now, and I guess one of the suggestions that I might put forward is that
2 some of these motions, it may be more expedient and may involve less time
3 of -- less of Mr. Alarid's time, some of these motions might be able to
4 be dealt with in oral argument, taking five minutes to discuss the
5 issues, present the positions to the -- Your Honours, and then it could
6 be decided sometime afterwards. So that might save some time and ease
7 the burden on Mr. Alarid if the Court wants to consider that.
8 With respect to Mr. Alarid's motion, we are of course
9 endeavouring to comply with it -- the Chamber's rulings in the Pre-Trial
10 Chamber. We anticipate that we will be able to although there are some
11 difficulties. With respect to whether the trial schedule should be
12 reduced to four days, I feel that's a matter for the Chamber's
13 discretion. I don't have any personal knowledge of the workload of the
14 Defence so I wouldn't want to comment on it. So all I would say is that
15 we're prepared to go forward with the schedule, but we will trust in the
16 Chamber's discretion on what it deems is the fairest way to proceed.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we agree that there's a
19 fast tempo for these proceedings, and we have nothing against the
20 request, and it is a privilege on behalf of Mr. Domazet to be able to
21 address this Trial Chamber. I think he'll be able to tell you more.
22 He's catching a plane, and he considers that his presence here is not
23 absolutely necessary. So could you give Mr. Domazet a chance to address
24 the Trial Chamber, please.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but to address me on what? If he wishes to
1 leave, he may leave.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. [In English] Thank you
3 very much, Your Honour.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your mike.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the end of the first break or the beginning
7 of the second session we'll give a decision on the Defence application
8 for a four-day sitting.
9 Call the witness.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just prior to calling the witness, if
11 you recall the Chamber also deferred to today its decision on certain
12 excerpts from section 3 of Prosecution Exhibit 96, that is to do with the
13 paramilitary groups. I'll just remind the Chamber of that. Maybe
14 perhaps sometime today we could come back to that. The specific clips
15 that I'm seeking -- or that I'm suggesting were implicated during the
16 cross-examination were clips 29, 32, 34, and 36.
17 And, Your Honour, the Prosecution's next witness will be led
18 by -- or questioned by Mr. Ossogo, and it's VG-58.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll give a ruling on your application relating
20 to the clips later today.
21 Did I see the hand of Mr. Lukic, Milan Lukic? What is it that
22 you wish to say?
23 THE ACCUSED M. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to ask
24 the Trial Chamber because this is a protected witness, and Mr. Domazet
25 has nothing to do with the next witness, that he leave the courtroom or
1 I'll leave the courtroom. The next witness is coming in. Domazet isn't
2 his counsel, so I don't see the purpose for his remaining in the
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is rather strange. You're making a request
5 for Mr. Domazet to leave the courtroom? You have become a counsel?
6 THE ACCUSED M. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If he's not a counsel for
7 the next witness and if he's not my Defence counsel, I don't see the
8 purpose of him remaining in the courtroom if the witness coming is indeed
9 a protected witness. I apologise, but that's what I think.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, who requires Mr. Domazet to stay? I don't
11 require him to stay. I've told him he can leave. He's perfectly free to
12 leave. Nothing that I've said indicates [Realtime transcript read in
13 error "entitles"] that he should stay. It's entirely a matter for him.
14 Mr. Domazet, very quickly.
15 MR. DOMAZET [Interpretation] Your Honour, as quick as I can.
16 I've been informed that Mr. Vasiljevic will be here again and that my
17 presence is necessary, so I have a plane ticket this evening instead of
18 Saturday and I'm due to leave. Now, in view of the present situation and
19 the fact that Mr. Vasiljevic will be just asked a few questions, I really
20 don't see the need for me to be present. You can go ahead without me.
21 So I was just going to request that I be allowed to leave the courtroom
22 so that there's no need for a reaction of this kind on the part of
23 Mr. Lukic.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You are excused if you wish, Mr. Domazet.
25 Let us get on with the work of the trial. Call the witness.
1 MR. GROOME: VG-58, Your Honour.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-58
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just to be clear, I have just seen the
6 transcript and me saying nothing I have said entitles him to say. It's
7 the exact opposite. I said nothing I have said requires him to stay.
8 Let the witness make the declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit, and you may begin, Mr. Ossogo.
12 Before you begin, though, I'm feeling rather hot in this
13 courtroom and I have to ask that something be done about it. Yes. I've
14 been told that they have been advised that it is unduly hot.
15 Yes, Mr. Ossogo.
16 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. The
17 Prosecution calls Witness VG-58. I'm going to submit witness -- to
18 Witness VG-58 a pseudonym sheet through the usher, because we're dealing
19 here with a protected witness.
20 Examination by Mr. Ossogo:
21 Q. Witness VG-58, the usher is currently showing you a pseudonym
22 sheet. On this pseudonym sheet can you confirm that you can find your
23 first name, last name, and your date of birth? Are these -- is this
24 information correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Please sign at the bottom of the pseudonym sheet with the pen
2 that the usher is handing out to you.
3 A. [Marks].
4 Q. Witness VG-58, please --
5 MR. GROOME: Madam Usher. Madam Usher.
6 Q. Please take a look at the back of the pseudonym sheet, and here
7 you will find a name and a pseudonym, and you may have to use the
8 pseudonym if you want to refer to that person during your testimony.
9 Please use the pseudonym of that person during the testimony in case you
10 need to mention that person.
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecution would
13 like to tender the pseudonym sheet.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as P98 under seal, Your Honours.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like us to move
18 briefly into private session.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 1577-1586 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness VG-58, could you tell us the circumstances surrounding
20 your meeting with these White Eagles?
21 A. I met them on the Drina Bridge.
22 Q. They speak to you?
23 A. They said that we should go back home and that we should not
24 linger there.
25 Q. Did they check your ID, either your own or the people who were
1 with you?
2 A. Yes. They checked my ID as well as my husband's.
3 Q. You were with your husband. Were you with other people also?
4 A. My children were there.
5 Q. Since this Mr. Momir Mioskovic was your neighbour, did you ever
6 see White Eagles in his house at one point in time?
7 A. I saw outside the door, beneath the vine there.
8 Q. What were they doing?
9 A. They were sitting there on several occasions drinking.
10 Q. They were wearing weapons -- carrying weapons?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How were they dressed? Did they have uniforms?
13 A. They were in uniform.
14 Q. Could you describe these uniforms for us, please?
15 A. Yes, I can. These were camouflage uniforms. They had caps on
16 their shoulders.
17 Q. What colour were these uniforms?
18 A. They were military uniforms.
19 Q. Among these White Eagles were you able to recognise anyone at one
20 point in time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Give us the names of the people you recognised.
23 A. Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic.
24 Q. Did you know Mitar Vasiljevic?
25 A. Mitar Vasiljevic, yes.
1 Q. How did you know him?
2 A. I knew him because he worked at the Hotel Panos.
3 Q. Did you go to this Hotel Panos?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did Mitar Vasiljevic ever enter into your own house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did you do when he arrived into your house, and why did
8 he -- why had he come?
9 A. He was looking for gold -- or, rather, first he asked us to turn
10 over a rifle, then he asked for gold, and when we had none of that, he
11 asked for money.
12 Q. Was he alone or were there other people with him?
13 A. Yes, there was Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, and Jovisa Planojevic.
14 Q. These people you just mentioned, Sredoje Lukic, Milan Lukic, and
15 Jovisa Planojevic, did they -- did you open the door for them, or did
16 they break into the house or enter in another way?
17 A. Yes. Mitar kicked the door in.
18 Q. Were you alone in your house?
19 A. I was there with my two children.
20 Q. You told us about gold. Did you give them what they wanted?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Later on after this incident, after the fact that this group
23 broke into your house, what did you do with your children? Did you leave
24 the house or did you stay in the house?
25 A. He told us that we should wait for him there, that he would kill
1 my children unless we stayed there waiting for him. However, he never
2 showed up at the house any more.
3 Q. Was your husband with you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you afraid?
6 A. Well, yes.
7 Q. Did you hide?
8 A. Throughout at that time I never dared to enter my home. I once
9 did, and I found that a bag of flour had been thrown on the floor, and
10 some of my belongings were strewn around, and that was the last time I
11 went into my house.
12 Q. I will now like to talk about Sadija Dedic, Witness.
13 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
19 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness VG-58, did you know Sadija Dedic?
21 A. I did. I'd often go to her place for a cup of coffee.
22 Q. Where did she live?
23 A. She lived at Seganje next to Momir Mioskovic. First there was
24 Ibrahim Dedic's house then Sadija Dedic and then Rasim Dedic's house.
25 They were all in one courtyard.
1 Q. Did you know her husband?
2 A. Yes, Latif.
3 Q. You're mentioning Latif. That was her husband's name?
4 A. That's right, yes.
5 Q. Did you know what happened to Sadija Dedic?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber?
8 A. It was like this: It was sometime around 9.00 or half past 9.00,
9 (redacted) There's a shed up by
10 the road and then there's an iron gate, and there's some concrete there
11 and steps and an entrance, and I heard and saw the gate opening. It was
12 roughly opened, and they entered the house.
13 There were four or five of them. I didn't count them properly
14 because it was dark. I recognised Milan Lukic there, Sredoje Lukic,
15 Jovisa Planojevic, Mitar Vasiljevic. And there was someone else there,
16 but I wasn't able to recognise them.
17 They entered the house, and they asked Sadija for her valuables.
18 However, while they were opening the door Latif escaped to the bathroom.
19 There's a bathroom on the right-hand side, and he jumped out of the
20 window, and they kept asking Sadija for money and for her valuables, her
21 gold. She gave what she had and said she had nothing else, but they kept
22 asking her for more.
23 There was a lot of commotion, a lot of noise, and I saw -- well,
24 it went on for quite a long -- well, there was a burst of gunfire shortly
25 afterwards, and then they left. The door banged shut, and the car door
1 was slammed, and they went off towards the bus station and the centre of
3 Q. Thank you. You said that you heard shots. (redacted)
5 A. That's right. I was not even a metre away from the house. I was
6 in the Sadija Dedic courtyard. Sadija Dedic's courtyard.
7 Q. Did you recognise the person who shot that burst of gunfire?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was it?
10 A. Milan Lukic.
11 Q. Could you tell us how he was dressed when he did this, if you
13 A. Yes, I can do that. He was wearing a black -- black overalls,
14 and on his head he had a sort of sock. You could just see his eyes. And
15 he had gloves on too. And he had a rifle on him, the short one.
16 Q. You're saying that he had some kind of sort of sock on his head?
17 So how were you able to identify him?
18 A. I recognised his voice, because he was the one screaming at
19 Sadija most. He shouted out "Not Rozaje. He's not in Rozaje. Give me
20 some more gold and money."
21 Q. Apart from this voice that you heard and that you recognised as
22 being Milan Lukic's, are there other features that really struck you and
23 that could really support the fact that you recognised Milan Lukic?
24 A. I'm sure I recognised him. You know what? Let me put it this
25 way, let me tell you this way. Your Honours, he went with Behija
1 Biscanka's car, in her car, and he was the only person who drove that
3 Q. You are saying that he was driving Behija's car. What make was
4 this car, and what colour was this car?
5 A. A Passat, red in colour.
6 Q. Were there any other colours of the same make around and the same
7 colour in Visegrad or any other -- that you could have seen?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is this a new car or a secondhand car or an old car?
10 A. It was a new car.
11 Q. You said that this car belonged to a lady called Behija. Did you
12 know this lady?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. How did you know her?
15 A. She had a shop by the bridge, and I would meet her there quite
16 often, and that's how I knew her. The Rzava bridge.
17 Q. Did you know how this car ended up in Milan Lukic's hands, who
18 was driving it since it used to belong to this lady Behija?
19 A. Yes, yes. I did know that, because the woman was very rich. She
20 lived a comfortable life, and I heard that Milan Lukic killed her. And
21 he was the only one who drove that car. Nobody else drove it.
22 Q. Let's return to what happened in the Dedic household. You said
23 that Mr. Dedic escaped through a window?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo.
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: How long did you plan to spend on this witness?
3 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we plan on about two
4 hours. A viva voce witness, as you see, and we had earmarked about two
5 hours for this witness.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: As they say in track and field athletics, you
7 must pick up the pace.
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to
9 be like Husain Bolt, just as fast.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps faster.
11 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness VG-58, could you tell us whether Mr. Dedic came back
13 after he escaped his house and after his wife was murdered?
14 A. He came in the morning. Well, I entered the house first and then
15 he came.
16 Q. What happened to Sadija's body?
17 A. When I went into the house I saw her turned this way. She had
18 turned herself around, and her brain was spattered all over the house.
19 By the door there was a hole this big from the impact from when the rifle
21 Q. Thank you. I would now like to talk about Rasim Dedic. Did you
22 know Rasim Dedic?
23 A. Yes, I did know him.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We need to go back to public session.
25 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I was about to ask for it. Thank
1 you, Your Honour.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
4 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Rasim Dedic?
6 A. Yes, I do. I don't remember what day it was, but it was 1.00 in
7 the afternoon. They killed him in his own house.
8 Q. Do you remember the year this happened?
9 A. I can't remember what year it was or the date.
10 Q. Was it after Sadija was killed?
11 A. Three days after Sadija.
12 Q. And Sadija Dedic was killed after he had moved to Seganje, is
13 that it?
14 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Reformulate.
16 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness VG-58, you said that Rasim Dedic's murder occurred a few
18 days -- three days after Sadija Dedic was killed, after Sadija Dedic was
19 killed. Do you remember when?
20 A. Yes, three or four days. I can't remember exactly when. I think
21 it was sometime in June anyway, but when exactly I really can't remember.
22 I can't remember the date.
23 Q. Do you remember in what year this happened? You seem to remember
24 the month. Could you please tell us the year it happened.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo, you might consider that --
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992, in June.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The incident of Rasim Dedic, which is not in the
5 indictment, does not mean it's not relevant, it has its own relevance,
6 but perhaps you can deal with matters like that very quickly.
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Absolutely, but this witness needs
8 to be told about the events along a time line in order to know what
9 happened. Some other witnesses don't need this, but this witness needs
10 to be told about the chronology of the event -- of the events, needs to
11 be led in some way.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed.
13 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Ossogo, it's time for the break.
15 We'll take the break.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ossogo. Ever mindful, I hope, of the
19 need to pick up the pace.
20 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. Yes, I'm
21 mindful of that.
22 Q. VG-58, Witness VG-58, we are now going to deal with an incident
23 that took place in the area of Bikavac. Do you remember the fire that
24 happened in that area?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you please describe the events for us. Could you tell us
2 what you saw.
3 A. Yes. I was nearby, about five metres away, maybe even closer,
4 and I'm going to describe where I was. It was towards evening. I don't
5 know exactly what the time was. There were quite a lot of women there
6 and children, too, young girls, not to enumerate them at all. They were
7 at Meho Aljic's house, quite a lot of them. And then a red Passat turned
8 up. Milan Lukic was there, Sredoje Lukic, too, Mitar Vasiljevic, Jovisa
9 Planojevic, and there were some others, but I didn't know those others.
10 They forced the people into Meho Aljic's house, and I saw it all.
11 I saw them telling the people to go into the house. Milan Lukic said,
12 "Come on. Let's get as many people in as possible," from Zupa, Gostilja,
13 Velika and Mala, Zlijeb and so on, all these different places, but it's
14 called Zupa, actually. And they forced all people into the house, and by
15 that time it was already dark.
16 From behind Meho Aljic's house I heard some banging like a
17 hammer, a strong object, the banging noise, and the door shut suddenly.
18 And then not 10 or 20 minutes later they got back into the car and left
19 and the house burst into flames. They put some petrol on it, and I heard
20 and saw that there were tracer bullets. They shot tracer bullets into
21 the house. And anyway, it all caught fire and was set alight.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness VG-58. Let's return to the individuals you
23 saw. You told us that you saw Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Mitar
24 Vasiljevic, and Jovisa Planojevic. What was Milan Lukic doing exactly?
25 What was his role within this group of people?
1 A. It was like this: He had a short rifle. I don't know what the
2 name of that kind of rifle is, but anyway, he pushed the people into that
3 house with that rifle and managed to do that. They all went into the
4 house, and then they set fire to the house. And a little while after
5 that, the car left and the house was ablaze. You could hear screams like
6 the screams of cats. It was just terrible.
7 Q. What did Sredoje Lukic do, because you saw him as well.
8 A. Yes, he was there too. He did the same. He was busy pushing the
9 people into the house, all of them in that group. There were some other
10 people, too, in that group of theirs, but I couldn't recognise the
12 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: I think that the previous question was leading
15 question. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: If it was, only marginally so. Let's proceed.
17 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, you were describing what Sredoje Lukic was doing.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How was Milan Lukic dressed?
21 A. He had black overalls, one piece, black one-piece on him, and he
22 had -- you know, what they put that -- the thing you put for the rifle,
23 for putting the bullets into, and he had a knife and a short rifle.
24 Q. What about Sredoje Lukic?
25 A. They were dressed the same.
1 Q. In your view, these two individuals you recognised amongst others
2 where the house of Meho Aljic was on fire, were these two individuals the
3 same as the one that you identified for the Chamber earlier on and are
4 here with us in this courtroom?
5 MR. ALARID: I would object to the characterisation of
6 identification. I don't believe there was an identification.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed. That's a matter on which the Trial
8 Chamber will make a determination as to the weight.
9 Do you have the same point, Mr. Cepic?
10 MR. CEPIC: Your -- Your Honour, just to add something related to
11 the previous identification, who's wearing the blue jacket and who's
12 wearing the grey jacket, for the record. With your leave.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're asking me?
14 MR. CEPIC: No, no, just for the record, to put in the record,
15 because the witness described one of the accused.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not going back to it. I've told counsel
18 that he can come back to that. Let us be orderly.
19 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. VG-58, did you get my question? Can you answer my question?
21 A. Could you please repeat the question?
22 Q. Yes. I was asking you the following: During the fire at Bikavac
23 you've just described, you identified Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic,
24 among others. These two individuals, are they here in this courtroom
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'd like to return to something you said. You said that women
3 and children were gathered together. You said that Milan Lukic brought
4 all these people together, if I remember correctly. Were there also men
5 within that group?
6 A. I didn't see any.
7 THE INTERPRETER: "I did not see," said the witness.
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation].
9 Q. Could you give us a ballpark figure of the number of people being
10 gathered in this group?
11 A. Roughly over 60.
12 Q. You said that you were close by, that you were about five metres
13 away from the house of Meho Aljic. Do you remember roughly where you
14 were standing?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where were you in respect to the house of Mr. Meho Aljic? Were
17 you behind the house, in front of the house, next to the house?
18 A. In front of the house.
19 Q. Were you able to identify other houses nearby next to the house
20 of Mr. Aljic, houses whose owners you know?
21 A. Yes. Yes. I know Dervo from Zlijeb, a house below the road.
22 VG-114, Sumbula Pecikoza.
23 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into
24 private session for this part of my examination.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
7 Q. Witness, I'm now going to show you a picture, and on that picture
8 you will be able to show us the house where the fire took place, and you
9 will be able to tell us as well where you were. I'm going to ask the
10 registrar to display Exhibit 175.10 on the 65 ter list. It's part of
11 exhibit -- or of 00175.
12 Whilst the document is being brought up on our screens, I'd like,
13 Witness VG-58, I'd like to ask you whether you were able to recognise
14 anyone in that group of people that had been brought together.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please give us the names of those whom you recognise?
17 A. Meho Aljic's sister-in-law Suhra, with a baby; Tija Spoljan, her
18 daughter-in-law with two children from -- then Tija Ceric's [phoen]
19 daughter, and her daughter's daughter and a baby.
20 Q. You've just given us the names of a number of people you
21 recognised and who were pushed into the house of Meho Aljic. We now have
22 the photograph on our screens, but I don't think it's working properly.
23 You mentioned VG-114. Was VG-114 amongst those people in that
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. ALARID: And I object to the leading nature of the question,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see anything leading in that. Proceed.
4 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You told us that the house burnt down. Could you tell us who set
6 fire to the house?
7 A. Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Jovisa Planojevic, Mitar Vasiljevic.
8 Q. How did they set fire to the house? What did they use to set
9 fire to the house?
10 A. They used petrol to light the fire, as well as bullets that were
11 fired from a rifle.
12 Q. You were in front of the house of Meho Aljic. Could you tell us
13 how long it all lasted? You said that you heard screams for a while.
14 How long did it last?
15 A. It lasted perhaps half an hour.
16 Q. After this half hour could you still hear screams coming from the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said that there were children, young children, babies. Were
20 you able to see how many babies there were?
21 A. Yes. I wasn't able to see how many children there were, but
22 there were many.
11 Page 1603 redacted. Private session.
10 Q. Thank you. There was this fire in this house, the fire you saw.
11 Do you know what the perpetrators, Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic,
12 Vasiljevic, do you know what they did afterwards?
13 A. Yes. They took the car and got out of the driveway onto the
14 street leading from Banpolje toward the town, toward the hotel in
15 Bikavac. Milan Lukic took two girls and got them into a van. I wasn't
16 able to see who was driving the van, but they drove them away toward the
18 Q. You said that they took a car. What colour was that car?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
20 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we just heard that witness mentioned
21 just Milan Lukic and now in question we have plural.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's quite so, Mr. Ossogo. The previous
23 evidence was that Milan Lukic took two girls and got them into a van.
24 But then she said, but they drove them towards the town.
25 So, Witness, how many persons took the two girls and put them
1 into the van and drove them towards the town?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them were there. Nobody had
3 left earlier or later. They got into the car. I wasn't able to see who
4 was at the wheel. I was only able to see Milan Lukic forcing them onto a
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know who else got into the car? Did you
7 see Milan Lukic go into the car? Did you see Milan Lukic go into the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him push them into a van. I
10 saw him do that personally, but I don't know who the driver was.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And do you know who else got into the car apart
12 from the two girls?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Those who were part of the
14 group did.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And who was part of the group? Are you able to
16 name them?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Milan Lukic, Sredoje Lukic,
18 Jovisa Planojevic, Mitar Vasiljevic.
22 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness VG-58, after these events, after the perpetrators had
24 left, what did you do, because you were hiding in a place where you saw
25 all these events. What did you do then?
1 A. I was there until VG-114 went past.
2 Q. Was VG-114 alive? Did VG-114 survive the fire?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know if other people survived this fire in Bikavac?
5 A. No.
11 Page 1608 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in public session.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead, Mr. Alarid.
17 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
20 Q. Ms. VG-58, my name is Jason Alarid, and I'm counsel for Milan
21 Lukic. May I ask you some questions today?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. ALARID: I'm sorry?
24 [Defence and court usher confer]
25 MR. ALARID:
1 Q. Ma'am, isn't it true that you lost or -- many family members in
2 this war in Visegrad?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And for the first time in your statement in April of 2008 you
5 mention the belief that your mother, as well as other family members,
6 were in this house on Bikavac; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at no time prior to April 2008 did you mention this suspicion
9 that your mother and sisters were in this house in Bikavac. Isn't that
11 A. I didn't even mention my father. My father was detained in the
12 school building on Pionirska Street.
13 Q. And isn't it true that after the war the names of Milan Lukic,
14 Sredoje Lukic, and Mitar Vasiljevic were talked about amongst the
15 refugees from Visegrad?
16 A. I don't know who talked about what. I only know who did what.
17 Q. And it's because you're saying you're an eyewitness and recognise
18 these gentlemen at many stages in your time in Visegrad. Isn't that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, on the date of the Bikavac fire, you're indicated and you
22 drew on the map that you were five metres from the fire the whole time.
23 Is that true?
24 A. Yes. I didn't measure the distance, of course, but it was
25 roughly that, and I swear to God. I'm not going to lie.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, just to let you know, the Prosecutor
2 took 90 minutes in his examination-in-chief, and that's about the time
3 that you will have as a maximum. Of course, you don't have to use it.
4 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I'll try not to.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
6 MR. ALARID: I'll try not to, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, during this time that you indicate that just Milan Lukic,
8 Sredoje Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic, and one other individual,
9 Mr. Planojevic, was at the scene?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You didn't describe what Mitar Vasiljevic was wearing. What was
12 he wearing? And how did you know who he was?
13 A. I know for sure. He wore the black overall. He had gloves on
14 his hands, a rifle in his hands, a knife at his belt, a bullet belt
15 across his chest and a cap on his head, something like a sock or stocking
16 or something like that.
17 Q. Was the stocking pulled down over his face?
18 A. Yes, but you could see his eyes.
19 Q. And so you know Mitar Vasiljevic enough that you would recognise
20 him from his eyes alone?
21 A. Yes, that's right. I can recognise him now too.
22 Q. Ma'am, I put to you that you were offered a photograph of Mitar
23 Vasiljevic and you were not able to name him.
24 A. I recognised him. I'm not going to lie. I've come here to tell
25 the truth. I'm not ashamed. So if I recognised somebody, I say so. And
1 I'm not afraid of anyone either. I just fear God.
2 Q. But in your statement --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo.
4 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] If the counsel could please specify
5 when this photograph was shown to the witness - I believe that it was in
6 the Vasiljevic case - so that the witness can locate herself in time.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: She seemed to have been aware of it, but, yes,
8 Mr. Alarid.
9 MR. ALARID:
10 Q. I put to you that it was attached to your 14, 15 of May, 2000,
11 statement tendered to the OTP investigators. Do you recall giving this
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, before we move on to that statement, though, I would like to
15 take your attention to April of this year where you filed clarifications
16 to the 2000 statement totaling 52 paragraphs, and it was given over three
17 days, the 17th, the 19th, and the 20th of April, 2008. Do you recall
18 this statement?
19 A. Yes, I do. May I ask you a question?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you can't ask him a question. That's
21 not permitted. Please be patient, just answer the questions.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 MR. ALARID:
24 Q. Can I ask now, this was a clarification of an approximately
25 eight-page statement you'd given in 2002. Can you tell us, though, why
1 it took three days to generate these clarifications?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Now, in the statements you indicated -- do you recall giving a
4 statement in July of 1992?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that was to the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo. Isn't
7 that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. ALARID: I'd like the court usher, please, to bring up
10 1D10-1570, which is the English version. B/C/S version is 1D10-1574.
11 For the witness, please.
12 Q. Before your testimony today -- or have you been given an
13 opportunity to review the 1992 statement? Ma'am, did you have an
14 opportunity to review the 1992 statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so do you recall that in that statement you had never
17 mentioned Milan Lukic, the Bikavac fire, the fact that you were present
18 at that fire at all?
19 A. I always mentioned, and I stand that -- and I stand by that, and
20 I'm not afraid.
21 Q. Now, isn't it true that in the 1992 statement, the only time --
22 you never mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic?
23 A. He did the most evil. Him, Lukic.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that wasn't the --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Lukic, Sredoje --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please just listen to me. The question that
2 counsel is asking, counsel is saying that in your 1992 statement, you
3 never mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him in all the incidents, in
5 every incident, and even if I didn't write that, I've come here to tell
6 the truth, and I'm not afraid of doing so.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. Well, in your 2000 statement given to the Office of the
9 Prosecutor for the ICTY, you indicated that Mitar Vasiljevic was the one
10 that first arrested your husband. Isn't that true?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. However, in your July 1992 statement, you indicated that your
13 husband was arrested by Dragan Tomic while he was in the village of
14 Prelovo trying to return home. Isn't that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Yet in your 2000 statement you indicate that Mitar Vasiljevic
17 came in to your house to arrest him. Isn't that true?
18 A. Yes. He was looking for him and went to Osavo [phoen] where he
19 was, and Milan Lukic looked for me at Bikavac and Seganje and everywhere.
20 Q. But, ma'am, do you see the discrepancy? In one statement, the
21 most recent after the incident, you state that your husband was arrested
22 by the chief of police, Dragan Tomic, on his way back home from Prelovo,
23 and in 2000, eight years later, you indicate that Mitar Vasiljevic
24 arrested your husband after kicking in the door and demanding gold at
25 your home. Can you explain that discrepancy?
1 A. You know what? If I -- if I didn't write in something, had you
2 experienced and lived through what I had lived through, you wouldn't have
3 been able to even write a third of what I've written.
4 Q. Ma'am, isn't it just true that you want revenge of the local
5 Visegrad residents who you believe are responsible for these tragedies
6 through hearsay and speaking with other people?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ossogo.
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I disagree with this
9 mischaracterisation of the client's motives saying that she wants
10 revenge. I don't think this has any relevance to the case.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] ... that's my view,
12 he's perfectly entitled to put it. And she can answer it.
13 Are you here to get revenge, Witness?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: She has answered. Let's move on.
16 MR. ALARID:
17 Q. Now, in your 1992 statement you do indicate that there -- the
18 Uzice Corps were doing the robbing. However, in the 1990 -- or excuse
19 me, in the year 2000 statement you now name it as the locals Mitar
20 Vasiljevic, Sredoje Lukic, Milan Lukic, and your neighbour. Who's that?
21 What's his name, ma'am?
22 A. To answer your question, the Uzice Corps, the White Eagles, did
23 not slaughter and kill people as much as these people did and slaughtered
24 too. So I think that should now be clear to you, that everything's clear
25 to you now.
1 Q. But I would put to you that in your 1992 statement you indicated
2 that the Uzice Corps are the ones that came to your home looking for your
3 husband and took away your television, video recorder, cassette player,
4 kitchen knife, and gold jewellery, and that as they left they set fire to
5 Kemal Hurem's shop and cafe and those belonging to Subasic and others.
6 A. Not only Kemal Hurem's house but the whole hill was ablaze.
7 Q. And so what you're saying now is the Uzice Corps caused all that
8 fire and destruction.
9 A. I didn't even mention the Uzice Corps.
10 Q. In 1992 you did.
11 A. You know what? I don't want anybody to provoke me or me to
12 provoke anyone. I come here to tell the truth.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, there's a way in which you
14 cross-examine when you are cross-examining on previous statements, which
15 I think is not entirely satisfactory. You ask a question of the witness
16 to indicate that the witness is not saying something that was in a
17 previous statement, but you don't put the statement -- the statement is
18 not put in evidence so that we can see it. It is left -- it is left
19 hanging in the air.
20 MR. ALARID: And, yes, Your Honour. When I ask that they be put
21 up --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. ALARID: Excuse me. The statements are doing that same
24 flashing thing that we were having trouble with the photograph on the
25 e-court, and so I actually wanted to go paragraph by paragraph in a very
1 controlled manner and do that for the Court, Your Honour, and of course I
2 would be tendering the statements as evidence at the tail end of them,
3 all the statements so the Court can do their own compare and contrast as
4 to the changing statements.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the proper way to do it, in my view, is to
6 really put the statement in front of the witness and have the
7 statement -- have the witness look at it and get her disagreement or
8 agreement as to whether it bears out your proposition.
9 MR. ALARID: I agree with you completely, Your Honour. I'm
10 just -- I'm kind of flustered by the e-court problems that we're having
11 right now since they are blinking on and off. And, Your Honour, I'm not
12 sure when the break is, but that would be essential to clear this problem
13 up so the witness could see it.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: The break is at 25 minutes to 6.00.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's a technical matter - well, I hope it's
18 only technical - that I want to have clarified with the court deputy.
19 Court deputy.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, there is a technical problem. The
22 statement on the e-court does not stay permanently, it blinks. It
23 appears to be -- I don't have it. Yes, it doesn't stay on. It blinks.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might be of assistance to the
25 Court. If Mr. Alarid tells us -- the witness can see it fine, it's just
1 the rest of us who cannot. If Mr. Alarid gives us the reference, Mr. Van
2 Hooydonk says that he's able to put it up on Sanction and I don't believe
3 we have the same problem with Sanction, so as long as we have the
4 reference, perhaps we can assist by putting it up.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another alternative the court deputy says is to
6 go into private session and have it broadcast on the video.
7 MR. ALARID: That's fine, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: If I may assist, I can request from my assistant to
10 prepare enough hard copies of all these statements, and that would be in
11 ten minutes prepared. Ten or 15 minutes we can have all --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's very generous of you, but let's proceed.
13 MR. ALARID:
14 Q. Ma'am, before we can get into that as --
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 1619-1636 redacted. Private session.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1638-1641 redacted. Closed session.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.45 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of
5 September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.