1 Friday, 19 September 2008
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1914-1948 redacted. Closed session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio, we will be able to conclude this
5 witness's testimony today? That's a question.
6 MS. SARTORIO: I'm -- I'm confident -- hopeful that we can, and I
7 think we can, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 WITNESS: NURKO DERVISEVIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Usher, you may read the declaration to the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. You may have a seat. You may
17 begin, Ms. Sartorio.
18 MS. SARTORIO: I'll just wait a moment while they adjust his
19 seat, Your Honour, or do you want me to begin?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the seat be adjusted first, and he should be
21 brought closer to the microphone.
22 Examination by Ms. Sartorio:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
24 A. Good morning to you too.
25 Q. Could you please tell us your full name.
1 A. Nurko Dervisevic, born on the 25th of May, 1940.
2 Q. Thank you. And how many years did you go to school?
3 A. Seven years. Four elementary school and three occupational
4 school. I studied to become a joiner.
5 Q. And were you born and raised in the municipality of Visegrad
6 A. Yes, that's right. I was born there, and I spent my entire life
8 Q. Now, Mr. Dervisevic, I'm going to ask you some questions about
9 some statements that you gave to the ICTY investigators, if I may ask you
10 some questions.
11 A. Sure.
12 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting. Just related to
13 protective measures for this witness. No measures. Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I never requested
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It doesn't arise. Thanks.
18 MS. SARTORIO:
19 Q. Sir, do you remember giving a statement to ICTY investigators in
20 February of 1998?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you also remember giving another statement in April of
23 2008 in which you made some corrections to your 1998 statement? Do you
24 remember that?
25 A. Yes. Maybe I didn't go through every single detail, but I think
1 I corrected a lot of mistakes that were there in terms of place, names,
2 people's names and that kind of thing.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, since you've come to The Hague in the last
4 couple of days, have these two statements been read to you in the Bosnian
6 A. Yes. There was a lady who proofed me for my appearance, and we
7 checked the statement for veracity.
8 Q. Okay. And we did make a couple of additional changes --
9 A. Just a minute, please.
10 Q. It's too loud?
11 A. A little softer, please. It's too loud. The sound is very loud,
12 and I don't like noise. Thank you.
13 Q. I'll try to speak a little softer. Now, we made a couple of more
14 changes to your 1998 statement, and I'm going to ask you about those
15 little changes in a minute, but other than those changes everything else
16 in the statement is still true; is that right?
17 A. I think so.
18 MS. SARTORIO: May we bring up -- it doesn't have a 65 ter
19 number. It's the statement, 1998 statement, ERN 00584654 to 4669. I
20 would like to go to page 2 in both versions, and it's second paragraph
21 down on the page.
22 Q. In just a moment, sir, you'll see your statement come up on the
23 screen, and then I'm going to ask you a question.
24 Okay. Now, sir, on the left side of your screen, do you see part
25 of your statement in the Bosnian language? On the left side of the
1 screen. Is that yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you see that -- in the statement you say the date of your
4 arrest was 9 of June of 1992. Now, would you like to change that date?
5 A. Maybe this is a small inaccuracy. It was sometime in June. The
6 9th, the 19th. I tend to get confused about dates. It might have been
7 the 19th. Maybe it was recorded as the 9th, but I'm actually quite
8 certain that it was the 19th.
9 Q. Okay. Now, also in this statement when we read down a little bit
10 further, you talk about the badges that were on the Serb police or army
11 persons who took you into custody, and you describe an SDS badge with two
12 eagles and also a three-coloured flag. Now, would you like to make a
13 correction to that?
14 A. In the barracks there was an SDS flag. The sign belonged to the
15 SDS, and then the two eagles and the cross, that was for the whole thing.
16 It was some sort of a formation.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. But with particular focus on what these men
18 were wearing, you told me that you -- it was not possible that two badges
19 be together. Didn't you tell me that?
20 A. I don't think that could have been the case, not two at the same
21 time. There were several signs, different signs that were turning up,
22 and there were these radical parties with two eagles and a cross.
23 Q. Okay. I just want you to focus on the badge. Can you remember,
24 sitting here today, what -- what badges these men were wearing, and if
25 you can, would you please tell us?
1 A. The civilians, you mean?
2 Q. No, no.
3 A. The civilians weren't wearing anything at all.
4 Q. No. Just the two -- the Serb police or army that arrested you in
5 June of 1992. Do you remember the emblems? Okay. Could you tell us,
7 A. The people who arrested me had something blue on them. The car
8 said "Police," and the insignia belonged to the SDS, if I remember
9 correctly. They were members of the SDS. It was a party symbol.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I would like to go to page 7 in the
11 English and page 6 in the B/C/S. In the B/C/S, it's the last paragraph
12 on the page. In English, it's the first paragraph.
13 Sir, I'd like you to take a look, again, on the left side of the
14 screen and look at the last paragraph, the first sentence. It says that
15 you saw Milan Lukic take away more than 20 people. Is that what it says?
16 A. I heard his voice, but there were five or six persons involved.
17 I don't think he could have handled this on his own. As for
18 mistreatment, he was the one who came most frequently.
19 Q. And I'll ask you about that in a minute, but my question is, with
20 reference to this, you did not actually see Mr. Lukic do this, did you?
21 A. It was night-time. It was dark. I didn't know what time it was.
22 All the people who did that, I couldn't see them, but I heard voices and
23 I recognised the voices --
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 A. -- because he came several times and I saw him personally. I met
1 him then. I hadn't known him before.
2 Q. Okay. So I asked you a minute ago, other than these corrections
3 to your statement, everything else is still true; is that -- to the best
4 of your knowledge. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. The indictees themselves should tell us whether it was like
6 this or not. I think they should be free to say what they have to say.
7 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this witness's 1998 and
8 2008 statement be admitted in evidence.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P111, Your Honours.
12 MS. SARTORIO:
13 Q. Now, just some more questions, sir. In 1992 were you a member of
14 any army?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And were you ever a member of any army?
17 A. Never.
18 Q. In June -- okay. In June of 1992, did you wear any type of
19 military clothing at all?
20 A. No, never. I was a civilian throughout. Normally, I would wear
21 a jacket such as the one I'm wearing now.
22 Q. And did you carry a firearm or any other type of weapon in June
23 of 1992?
24 A. No. I never owned a weapon. I hated weapons. I hated even to
25 look at a weapon. I would have thrown it away. I never carried a
1 weapon, and if someone can prove otherwise, they're welcome to have a go.
2 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to draw your attention to June of 1992 and
3 ask you, do you recall being arrested or taken into custody at some
5 A. Yes, I recall that. I was on my way out. There were civilians
6 leaving. I didn't join that convoy. I wasn't able to. My family left
7 on that convoy, my wife and our four children who were underage at that
8 time. I headed down the Rzava river to this village close to Visegrad.
9 The distance may be about one and a half kilometres, and then I came
10 close to this place Boista [phoen] on the Rzava river, on the right-hand
11 river bank. This was day-time. It wasn't night-time. It might have
12 been 9 or 10.00 in the morning.
13 There was this - what should I call it - an ambush or whatever.
14 I stopped right there. There was some weapons. You've got to stop.
15 They said, Cross, and I surrendered. They took me to the MUP building.
16 I handed over my ID. There were these lads over there, soldiers, I
17 suppose. They were drinking a little. They gave me some, so I had some
18 too. It was a bit like that, and then Lukic Milan emerged, and he said,
19 Where are your sons? And then he slapped me over the head, the left side
20 of my head, and that's why I still can't hear. I thought my eardrum --
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 A. -- had been shattered, and that's when I fell down, and then they
23 took me away. They'd probably been ordered to take me away, and that's
24 what the --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, witness.
1 MS. SARTORIO:
2 Q. Thank you, Witness for that answer. Just one follow-up question
3 on this. Now, you say "they." Were these army men or policemen if you
5 A. It appears that they were Special Police. The car certainly had
6 a writing on it saying "Police," meaning they were police.
7 Q. Now, at some point you were taken to another facility. Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. When I woke up, I was drunk. I looked around myself, and I
10 appeared to be in some sort of warehouse, maybe a military one, maybe not
11 a military warehouse, the JNA in this place called Uzamnica. I saw six
12 persons standing in front of me, and they were all familiar.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. SARTORIO: May we -- may the court usher please bring up on
15 the screen 65 ter number 178.63.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness. Witness, you said when you woke up you
17 were drunk. Can you tell us what made you drunk?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The brandy. I'd downed some
19 outside the MUP building. It was given to me, and I accepted because I
20 was feeling quite depressed. By this time, I would have drank poison if
21 I had been given poison let alone brandy. That's how it was.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Ms. Sartorio.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that they did anything
24 particular to me, same as though we were in a pub or something, and they
25 gave me some brandy, and that was that.
1 MS. SARTORIO:
2 Q. Mr. Witness, okay. Thank you. Please try to wait for the
3 question, and then you answer the question. Thank you.
4 Okay. Could you look at the picture that's on your screen.
5 MS. SARTORIO: Mr. Cepic is on his feet here.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting. Just one
8 intervene. In transcript, I think that the witness said lines -- page
9 43, lines 18 and 19, the previous one, from -- from 19 to 21 that he said
10 like a friends, like friends in a pub.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They weren't being unpleasant to me
12 or anything. So after I'd been slapped, they sort of rued that. They
13 felt bad about me. Those people, as far as I remember, never --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
15 MS. SARTORIO: May I proceed, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MS. SARTORIO:
18 Q. So I'd ask you to look at the photograph that's on the screen and
19 ask if you can tell us what this photograph is. What's in the
21 A. This is Uzamnica. Down here is the JNA barracks, and these are
22 the warehouses. This one over here was the first one. There 's a path
23 there to an outpost, a military outpost --
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. -- and that's where we were detained, and this one had three
1 partitions inside, and we were in the mid-section, so to speak.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that the photograph be admitted
3 in evidence.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's admitted.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph will be admitted as
6 Exhibit P113; and just for the record, the 2008 witness statement with
7 ERN number 0634 through 03947 will be admitted as P112.
8 MS. SARTORIO: And the statement of April 2008?
9 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit P111.
10 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, may we bring up 65 ter number 178.41, please.
12 Sir, do you recognise the building that is in this photograph?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us what it is?
15 A. This is the warehouse, the military storage facility for their
16 military equipment, and we were in the mid section. Here is where the
17 women were, and over here, well, we didn't know. We were in no position
18 to know who was there.
19 Q. So how many months were you in detention at Uzamnica?
20 A. Twenty-eight months. It was in June that I was detained, and
21 then there was an exchange on the 10th of October at the brotherhood and
22 unity bridge. There were ten of us that got exchanged and eight ladies
23 as well.
24 Q. Now, so for the 28 months that you were detained, were you always
25 in this building?
1 A. Throughout.
2 Q. Can you tell me how many other detainees were in the middle
3 section as you described it with you?
4 A. Up to 26, and then some people would be taken away, some new
5 people brought in. So this varied, but the maximum, to my knowledge, was
6 26, perhaps 27. Some only stayed briefly. Some stayed all the way until
7 the exchange took place. Some mothers were taken away. There were some
8 private exchanges going on, as well, that sort of thing.
9 Q. Your Honour, may --
10 A. There were ten men left and eight women, and that was the final
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
13 MS. SARTORIO: May the photograph be admitted in evidence, Your
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P114.
17 MS. SARTORIO:
18 Q. Sir, do you know the ethnicity of the other detainees with which
19 you were detained?
20 A. All Muslims. In January, when I first -- or rather, the first
21 month I came there, there was among them a man named Pero Gacic from
22 Gorazde. He said he was a member of the Gorazde Territorial Defence.
23 Maybe he was lying to us, but I'm just telling you what he told me.
24 Q. Now, were there guards guarding the place in which you were
1 A. There were guards, two guards in a group. We were locked up with
2 a chain and padlock, and they were in charge of the prison or guarding,
3 but either they didn't want to or they could not prevent outsiders from
4 coming into the prison and beating people.
5 Q. I just want you to focus right now on the guards, and tell us if
6 you can tell us what they were wearing and if you knew any of them by
8 A. I know quite a lot of them. Their clothing was blue, but I also
9 saw them in civilian clothes. But if you want me to talk about guards,
10 I'll start -- do you want me to talk about guards?
11 Q. No. I just wanted to ask you a question about what you recall
12 them wearing.
13 You did name these guards in your statement, didn't you?
14 A. Yes, I did, but I can repeat it. Do you want me?
15 Q. No, thank you.
16 A. I stand by the statement.
17 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of these guards?
18 A. Serbs.
19 Q. Can you tell the Judges what the living conditions were like at
20 Uzamnica; and by this, I mean food, sleeping conditions, water, bathing,
21 et cetera.
22 A. It was a warehouse, not a house, not a hotel. There was hay
23 under the windows and some army blankets we used to cover ourselves, and
24 for 26 people the food could not be sufficient. One loaf of bread was
25 divided into nine pieces. We got tea, some marmalade to spread on bread,
1 and boiled eggs. That was the first month and the second month, and as
2 the number of us decreased, the food increased in amount. We bathed
3 outside the hangar, behind the warehouse.
4 Q. Can you tell me how much you weighed when you were released from
6 A. 42.
7 Q. 42 what?
8 A. I weighed myself in Sarajevo
9 Before detention, I weighed 62 kilos.
10 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to direct your attention now to ask about
11 Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic, okay?
12 A. Please go ahead.
13 Q. Prior to the war, did you know a person by the name of Milan
14 Lukic? That's --
15 A. I did not. Maybe he knew me, but I didn't know him. I never
16 knew him before that camp.
17 Q. When was the first time that you met Milan Lukic?
18 A. That time when I was taken into custody to the MUP and when he
19 attacked me, slapping me over the head. Maybe I had run into him before
20 the war, but I had never noticed him. I had my own business to attend
22 Q. Now, when you were at the detention facility, did you ever see
23 Milan Lukic there?
24 A. Milan Lukic came occasionally. He would beat a couple of people
25 and then tell them, "Now get some rest," and then he would go.
1 Q. Did you ever beat you?
2 A. Yes. He pressed me against the pillar in the warehouse, and he
3 kicked me from behind. One time he chased me across the warehouse. He
4 put his foot on my back. When I fell, I tried to crawl forward, and he
5 did the same thing to some other people as well.
6 Q. Now, you said you didn't know him before the war, so how did you
7 come to learn that his name was Milan Lukic?
8 A. It was another man in detention, Saban Muratagic, who told me. I
9 think Milan Lukic is from a village close to his village, Zupa. Milan
10 from Rujiste. He can confirm that. So this man knew him, and Milan
11 didn't beat that man, and I was wondering why he was spared.
12 Q. Now, did anyone else beat you other than Milan Lukic during your
13 time in detention?
14 A. Yes. Once there was Milan Spasojevic, called Mico, and he took
15 out me and Mustafa Cuprija, a neighbour of mine. He was four years older
16 than I. He gave us some sticks to beat each other with three times each.
17 He hit me three times, and it was very painful, and I hit him three
18 times, but this man, "You're not doing it well enough. You don't want to
19 beat each other?" He took the sticks from us and beat us. This man was
20 sick. He had trouble with his blood sugar, and he was peeing blood.
21 This same Mico --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Witness.
23 MS. SARTORIO:
24 Q. Okay. Just -- now, before the war, did you know a person by the
25 name of Sredoje Lukic?
1 A. Yes, I did. He was an employee of the MUP, the Visegrad station
2 of the MUP.
3 Q. And did you ever see Sredoje Lukic at the Uzamnica detention
5 A. I recognised him only once. It was in the later months. It
6 could have been July or perhaps August. He came once when there were few
7 of us. Actually, at that time I was alone in that prison. He came with
9 look to me like a man of that kind.
10 He hit me several times, and Milan took that man, Semso Poljo, a
11 retired man from Bijeli Potok who was at that time was over 70, and he
12 took that man away, and again, I stayed alone.
13 Q. Okay. So when you say, he -- he hit me several times, do you
14 mean Sredoje Lukic hit you several times?
15 MR. CEPIC: Leading. Leading. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's very leading.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and Milan took that man and
18 said, "Hit him. Hit him." I don't know how he felt about it.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who beat you several times? Who was it that hit
20 you several times?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sredoje.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Sartorio.
23 MS. SARTORIO: I'm sorry, Your Honour, about that.
24 Q. Now, sir, when you saw Milan Lukic at the detention facility, did
25 you see him -- other than beating detainees, did you see him doing
1 anything else?
2 A. He probably knew those detainees by name. He called out Enes
3 Dzaferovic and his brother and another young man, Omerovic, the son of
4 Himzo Omerovic, and said, "You are going for the weekend to Bajina
5 Basta," and he took those three men away.
6 Q. Did you know these three men personally?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And since --
9 A. They're from -- Enes Dzaferovic and his brother lived close to
10 the MUP.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
12 A. Whereas Himzo Omerovic's son was from --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear from where.
14 MS. SARTORIO:
15 Q. Okay. Sir, you knew these -- the answer was yes, you knew these
16 three men personally, right? Okay. Now --
17 A. I knew them.
18 Q. -- since --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us just find out where the son was from.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.
21 Q. Can you tell us again, sir, where the son was from?
22 A. He was detained with his father. The brothers, fathers, and sons
23 were locked up together.
24 Q. I think the question is, do you know what village or municipality
25 they were from?
1 A. Visegrad, municipality of Visegrad
2 Dusce, a suburb of Visegrad where the furniture factory is.
3 Q. Now, after Milan
4 seen these men again?
5 A. Never.
6 Q. Have you spoken with their family members?
7 A. When I got out and came to Sarajevo
8 into his father - because he was a driver for the furniture company Varda
9 - (redacted), and I asked him, "Did your sons come back?" He had
10 heard stories that they were alive, but he said, "Never. Never, Nurko."
11 Q. Now, did you see Milan
12 question, please. Did you see Milan Lukic take other people away?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And on how many occasions did you see this?
15 A. He took away -- there were two more occasions after this one.
16 Q. And did you know the people whom he took away?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And have you ever seen any of these people since that time he
19 took them away?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know anyone who has ever seen the people whom he took
23 A. No one has ever said that those people have come back to their
24 families or that they were alive.
25 Q. Now, you grew up in the Visegrad area. You said that earlier.
1 Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, always. That's the municipality where I was born and where
3 I spent all my life until all this happened.
4 Q. Did you know anyone before this happened? Did you know anyone by
5 the name of Milan Lukic, who went by the name Milan Lukic?
6 A. No. I mean, no.
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 A. I know about the guards and the movement of commanders. One only
9 was from Zenica, and the other three guard commanders were from Visegrad.
10 Q. None of those guards were called Milan Lukic, were they?
11 A. No. There was one Milan Zecevic and Ilija Zecevic. Those two
12 were brothers.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you.
14 A. I even know them.
15 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the area in Visegrad known as
17 A. Of course. I grew up there. It's a part of Visegrad. Some
18 people say it's a suburb, but it's a town unto itself.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you.
20 A. Nova Mahala and my street was Dobrinska number 6. Perhaps it has
21 been renamed since.
22 Q. And the next question is, are you familiar with an area known as
24 A. How would I not know it? There's a sports centre with bungalows
25 and catering facilities, a hotel.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
2 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, my learned friend Mr. Dieckmann hasn't
3 found anything in 65 ter submission for this witness related to those
4 questions, previous two questions, Mahala, Bikavac.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, this witness is born and raised
7 in Visegrad and can testify about the area of Visegrad, and I think
8 it's -- it's background information about this witness, and --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. I agree.
10 What would your point be?
11 MR. CEPIC: We must be informed, Your Honour, in submission -- in
12 65 submission about what will that witness testify, just to know what we
13 have to prepare for cross-examination. If he opens some new topics, we
14 are little bit surprised.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this a new topic? Isn't this in Visegrad?
16 Isn't the area in Visegrad?
17 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, nothing in the statements and in the 65
18 ter summary is related to those two locations.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, if I may. I'm not going to ask him
21 about the Pionirska or the Bikavac incidents. I'm simply going to ask
22 him if he knows how long it would take him to drive from one area to the
23 next area, if he knows.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question may be asked, and Mr. Cepic, if you
25 can persuade us that you're in any way prejudiced, then you may do that,
1 but not now.
2 MS. SARTORIO:
3 Q. Sir, can you tell us how long it would take to drive from the
4 Mahala area to the Bikavac area?
5 A. Well, it's a ten minutes' walk, and by car you don't need more
6 than five minutes. Visegrad is a small municipality. You can drive from
7 one end to another and around it in just half an hour. It had a
8 population of no more than 10.000.
9 Q. Now, at some point during your detention at Uzamnica, did the Red
10 Cross visit the detainees?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did --
13 A. We were registered by the Red Cross a little too late, but after
14 that they continued to care for us, and probably to the extent of their
15 abilities they visited us, sometimes once in 15 days, sometimes once a
16 month or once in two months. They asked us about hygiene, food, general
17 conditions, and we told them.
18 Q. Did you ever --
19 A. And one of us was always put forward to emphasise that everything
20 was excellent.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
22 MS. SARTORIO:
23 Q. My question -- the next question would be, did you ever tell them
24 about the beatings?
25 A. We didn't dare to. Detainees would tell one another, "Shut up.
1 Don't you dare tell them. We'll get more if they hear that we've
3 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you, if you would, to please
4 look around the courtroom in just a minute and take your time and look at
5 everyone very carefully, and other than myself and Mr. Groome, I ask if
6 you can tell me if you recognise anyone else in this courtroom today.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Alarid.
8 MR. ALARID: Standard objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We note it.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the accused, right?
11 MS. SARTORIO:
12 Q. Can you tell us if you recognise anyone by name and, if so, what
13 are their names?
14 A. You mean in the service of the Tribunal or among the accused?
15 The accused, I know them, both Milan
16 look each other in the face.
17 Q. Okay. Can I just ask you, sir, to please, for the record -- you
18 have to tell the record because they have to take it down, type it, which
19 one is Milan
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the accused who is standing sit.
21 MS. SARTORIO:
22 Q. Which one is Milan
23 what colour he is wearing.
24 A. He's sitting. Sredoje had just gotten up and sat back down
25 again. He's now wearing glasses; he didn't used to wear them before.
1 And Milan
2 Q. Can you tell me if you can distinguish between the colour of
3 suits of these two men?
4 A. Their jackets are similar. Sredoje has a white shirt and a tie,
5 and Milan
6 Q. As you're looking at these two men, can you tell me which one is
7 on the left and which one is on the right as you look at them?
8 A. Looking from here, Sredoje is on the right and Milan is on the
10 Q. And are these the two men that you saw at the Uzamnica detention
11 camp and, as you testified to, who beat you?
12 A. Milan Lukic, and Sredoje I saw only once when he came together
13 with Milan
14 coercion, and there were no secret conversations. I want to say this
15 forthrightly here, the whole truth and nothing but truth.
16 Q. Just a few more questions, sir.
17 MS. SARTORIO: And, Your Honour, may the record reflect that the
18 witness has identified the accused correctly?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 MS. SARTORIO:
21 Q. Sir, can you tell the Chamber how -- what kind of physical or
22 emotional or mental injuries did you suffer as a result of your detention
23 and beatings?
24 A. Before medical and specialist panels, I was pronounced to have
25 70-percent invalidity, so they sent me to retirement in Zenica. And when
1 I applied for remuneration on account of being a civilian victim of war,
2 I started receiving some assistance as a former camp inmate and a
3 civilian victim. That's something that they started paying out later on
4 account of damage to my health, et cetera. The canton -- the cantonal
5 authorities provided that.
6 Q. Can you tell us what your health was like before 1992?
7 A. I was healthy like a bull, one the best workers at the furniture
8 factory. I was the one who best dealt with the strain of night-shifts,
9 and people even wondered how at my age I was so fit.
10 Q. Okay, sir, a few more questions. In 1992, did you have any
11 children and, if so, how many?
12 A. I had nine children, six sons and three daughters. Out of those
13 children, two were twins.
14 Q. And after the war started, did anything happen to any of your
16 A. Yes, it did. One of the twins, Samir, was taken away. That's
17 what I heard. At the time when they told me, I couldn't believe it, but
18 I wasn't an eyewitness to that. But I heard that there is a witness,
19 another boy who was then 14 or 15 who was taken away with my son together
20 with another younger boy. I heard that Samir was killed at the Drina
21 Bridge, and I would actually forgive him a lot if I could only get the
22 remains of my son back, but they were never found.
23 Q. Can you tell us --
24 A. My child is gone.
25 Q. Can you tell us how old Samir was?
1 A. He was not yet 15.
2 Q. And can you tell us who told you that your boy had been taken
3 away and killed at the Drina River
4 A. This boy didn't dare tell me for a long time. It was only five
5 or six days after the event that he told the mother - my wife, that is -
6 Samir was killed, it's very hard for me to tell you, and my wife fainted.
7 He told us that he had been taken there and then taken back to the MUP to
8 be interrogated, that Milan
9 killed Said Herceglic, another worker from my company, and I know all the
10 workers in our company. I don't know that boy.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.
12 A. That man was called Lempa.
13 MS. SARTORIO: May we go into closed session for one last
14 question, please.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 1973 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
3 Q. Sir, my name is Jason Alarid, and I represent Milan Lukic. Good
5 Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, and I was unclear
6 about just what you said. You mentioned a gentleman Lempa that was --
7 worked at the factory. Did you say that --
8 A. The furniture factory. Varda, it was called, Varda.
9 Q. And did you say that Lempa was killed with your son? Is -- that
10 was your understanding, but I was confused.
11 A. There was this witness who testified about Samir my son, and he
12 said that Said was killed then too. They called him Lenda, but his real
13 name was Said Herceglic, the former employee of the furniture factory.
14 He used to live in Nova Mahala. I can't remember the street, but that
15 was the neighbourhood there.
16 Q. How old was Lenda?
17 A. I was born in 1940, and he might have been born sometime around
18 1936, roughly speaking. He was several years older than me, quite
19 powerfully built. In the basement of his home he used to store some
20 drinks. His wife, Stana, and then he had two sons who were grownups.
21 Q. Can I ask you another question? The boy that told you about --
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 Q. The boy who told you about your son and Lenda, did he tell you
24 about his stay at the -- at the MUP and what happened to him there? And
25 please tell us what he told you if he did.
1 A. He says he was sent back to the MUP building and then he spent
2 some time there. I can't remember what he said, a day or so, and that's
3 where the story ends. He never said he had been beaten. I can't say
4 that. And he was released.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that you lived in Visegrad area your
6 entire life. Is that true?
7 A. That's true. It was only in the last war, the first war back in
8 1943, I was a refugee and my family had fled to Vratnik near Sarajevo
9 and we stayed there until we were able to return to our homes in 1945
10 when Yugoslavia
11 Q. And during your -- your life in Visegrad, did you know or hear of
12 Milan Lukic's family, Mile Lukic, his father?
13 A. I didn't know his father. I know some people from Rujiste.
14 There is a man named Ivanovic Jovan who worked in my department, and he
15 was from there, and I think he said he lived in France for some time,
16 this man named Jovan. And Rujiste, Rujiste -- I know there is a family
17 named Liska. I think they moved to Visegrad at some point. They bought
18 some land or something and built a house.
19 Q. Sir --
20 A. At Rujiste maybe -- there -- there weren't too many people there,
21 not too many households.
22 Q. Now, you were asked by the Prosecutor on direct examination if
23 you knew any other persons by the name of Milan Lukic in the area of
24 Visegrad, and it's my understanding that you said no. Is that true?
25 A. My apologies. There is no Milan Lukic in Visegrad itself. It
1 could be one of the other municipalities around. There are names that
2 are similar, but there is no Mile Lukic. Milan Lukic. Milan
3 Mile Zecevic. There are some Miles but no Mile Lukic. Milan, Sredoje,
4 and Dragan were the only three Lukics around, Dragan being the youngest.
5 Q. So Lukic itself is not a very common last name, or is it a common
7 A. Very common. I'm not sure. We might be talking at
8 cross-purposes. Can you repeat that, please.
9 Q. Is -- is Lukic a common last name around where you're from?
10 A. No, not really. Not in Visegrad municipality. Maybe further
11 afield in another municipality or even republic, but not in Visegrad.
12 Whoever knows many people named Lukic they should perhaps come up and say
13 so. Maybe you mean Lucic. Those are a bit thick on the ground. Yes,
14 that's true, but that's different. That's Lucic. Over at my
15 daughter-in-law's place, there was a worker at one of the local
16 factories. His name was Lucic, but I don't think that particular man
17 named Lucic is in any way related to this Lukic. Maybe it's just mix-up,
18 but we're looking at a Lucic there, and when you talk about Milan,
20 same thing and it's not the same family name, is it?
21 Q. No, sir, and I don't mean to interrupt you, but please try and
22 answer my questions a little shorter because I want to get you home
23 today, okay?
24 Now, did you know a Milan Lukic, though, from Turgovaca, about 45
25 [Realtime transcript read in error, "35"] years old at the time in 1992?
2 A. Turgovaca.
3 Q. And 45 years old, not 35 as the transcript reads.
4 A. No. The place is Glogova. That's one stop away from the railway
5 station. You take a train, and it's the next stop. It might be -- the
6 distance might be a kilometre from those buildings there, and that's on
7 the right-hand riverbank of the Rzava. Glogova, I don't know. Also,
8 maybe a correction. Dubrava, the place was Dobruna. I made that
9 correction there, and then --
10 Q. Sir, I don't mean to interrupt you. So you don't know a Milan
11 Lukic, 45 years old. Is that true?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Now, sir when you were detained at the Uzamnica barracks, did
14 police bring --
15 A. I didn't know anyone else aside from the person I met at the
16 camp, Milan Lukic or Lukic Milan. Lucic, yes. There were many of those
17 around, but that was Lucic and this is Lukic and then --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Witness.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somebody might get these two mixed
20 up, but then we have to know what is what.
21 MR. ALARID:
22 Q. Now, sir, when you were there in the barracks, when you were
23 detained there, is it true that police would bring the new detainees to
24 the prison?
25 A. Can I just please get the volume up because I can't hear
1 properly. It's very low now. Just the tiniest bit.
2 Q. Is that better, sir?
3 A. A little bit more, please. Yes, this is fine now. Please go
4 ahead with your question.
5 Q. Now, during your stay there -- you were there for 28 months,
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And your last day there was October 1994, in there somewhere?
9 A. I think so.
10 Q. And so during your 28 months there, did you see police bring new
11 detainees and take new -- and old detainees away?
12 A. Two people would be brought in at a time, for example, and then
13 there was this military warehouse, and we couldn't see who it was that
14 they were bringing. They would just throw the person inside, slam the
15 door shut, and that was that. It's not like we could actually see much.
16 I can't really say. But new people kept arriving all the time, and some
17 people had been taken away. Actually, new people being brought there.
18 That's what I meant.
19 Q. And is it true that sometimes those people would be taken away to
20 the police station for interrogation?
21 A. I myself was interrogated at the barracks. There was Ramiz Kulo.
22 There was me, Muharem Samardzic, and Adem Beberovic, over at the
24 Q. And you were interrogate --
25 A. But I don't know about the MUP building. I wasn't taken there
1 for interrogation. Was anyone else? I can't really say.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, before you were in the prison and before
3 you were arrested, you worked at the Varda factory, correct?
4 A. Correct. Yes, the furniture factory --
5 Q. And --
6 A. -- I was a joiner working with joinery machinery.
7 Q. And would you tell us when your last day at the factory was, your
8 last day of work?
9 A. The salaries were distributed. It was payroll day, maybe the 1st
10 of June, the 2nd of June, the May salaries; and then in my department I
11 was the only Muslim.
12 Q. And your last day of work, if it was the May salaries paid June
13 1st, is it true that you were arrested on the 9th of June, 1992?
14 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. The witness has already
15 testified to what he believed the date was.
16 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, I'm simply going off the
17 statement, which was admitted under the 92.
18 MS. SARTORIO: Then you should -- I would suggest that he ask
19 about the statement because in his direct testimony that's not what he
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate the question.
22 MR. ALARID:
23 Q. Could you please clarify because your statement says you were
24 arrested specifically on the 9th of June, 1992. Is that true?
25 A. I believe that that might be the day of my arrest, or the 19th.
1 I'm not sure about the date, but I'm sure about the month. It was June.
2 But I'm not exactly positive, and I can't say, but the -- I think no
3 later than the 19th of June. Maybe it was my mistake. Maybe I said the
4 9th at the time, and maybe I said the 19th and it was simply misrecorded.
5 You know, errors can always occur because I did personally correct some
6 of those.
7 Q. Now -- now, the one other --
8 A. Don't hold it against me, please.
9 Q. I do not, sir. One the other things that I'd like to ask you,
10 though, is -- is because you indicate that before you were arrested you
11 put your family on a convoy, and so I'm just trying to figure out, how
12 long before you were arrested did you put your family on a convoy? And
13 I'd ask you to name the members of your family at that went on the
14 convoy, please.
15 A. Four of my children and my wife and my two daughters-in-law, and
16 then maybe there was another lady neighbour of mine. They went to the
17 Red Cross, and then I was there at the Rzava river, and I wasn't allowed
18 to get onto that convoy. I heard that people were getting off the
19 convoy; I have no idea why, and then I started working down the Rzava
20 river in order to reach a village called Okrugla because that was
21 probably where the convoy stopped, and then the civilians assembled there
22 in a bid to go through the woods and reach Gorazde. I didn't --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Witness. Thank you very
25 MR. ALARID:
1 Q. Now, sir, can you remember simply the date of the convoy, and
2 maybe referring to how long after your last day of work was the convoy.
3 A. Some left before my family left. Where they left for is not
4 something that I can say. It was something that was organised by the Red
5 Cross, the convoys. There were just regular lorries, sometimes buses.
6 Q. Sir. Sir --
7 A. And then my wife told me when I came eventually that they had
8 been put on a lorry. Luga [phoen] Gladanac was the driver and --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, thank you very much.
10 MR. ALARID:
11 Q. And, sir, can you tell me why your twin sons were not on that
13 A. Well -- well, they couldn't leave because it was taken away. He
14 never got to the convoy. Only those that survived left on that convoy.
15 My wife, my youngest daughter, and three sons, Almir, Dervis, and Enes.
16 Enes was my youngest child, youngest male child. And they were married,
17 the two elder daughters, and then the oldest son was somewhere -- or,
18 rather, along the front line, Crni Vrh or someplace like that, and then
19 my two eldest sons, they were elsewhere engaged in the fighting.
20 Q. And so you're saying today that Almir was on that convoy?
21 A. Yes. Someone caught him. He was taken to the MUP building but
22 they released him. He said, I have a farm; I have to go and feed my
23 cattle; it's under a half kilometre from the town itself; and then after
24 working hours I have to go there; I have to provide for my family,
25 financially, I mean, and that sort of thing.
1 Q. Now, you were exchanged from the -- ultimately, you were part of
2 an exchange from the Uzamnica barracks. Isn't that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And --
5 A. The barracks, those of us who were there, they assembled us, and
6 then further down some other people joined --
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 A. -- I don't know, and then they took us -- I don't know where we
9 were taken through exactly because this was night-time. I couldn't
10 follow the route, and then at the entrance we spent the night there, and
11 then they took as far as the Vrbanja bridge, and there was this exchange
12 with the --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, please try to make your answers as
14 brief as possible.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, well. Wouldn't I like that, as
16 well, but I need to explain. I need to make it clear, and then you'll
18 MR. ALARID:
19 Q. Now, sir, isn't it true that some people that were taken away
20 from the Uzamnica barracks were taken away as part of exchanges?
21 A. There was a private exchange. This was not the regular Red Cross
22 exchange or organised by UNPROFOR, the United Nations, or whoever was in
23 charge of organising those. Hasan Balic was exchanged, and Ahmet
24 Pergirudina [phoen] and Ilijas Cuprija. It's like they were exchanged
25 for some women. Hajrudin, I saw at Visoko. Ilijas, I saw later on
1 twice. He was arrested. I saw him in detention and then after that,
2 once in Sarajevo
3 probably at the time he was -- he left or something. I don't know. I
4 didn't see him, really, and then there was another exchange --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
6 THE WITNESS: [In English] Yeah.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. [Interpretation] And isn't it true that on the day you were
9 arrested, you were brought to the police station along with many other
10 men that day by police who were arresting Muslims?
11 A. Well, there probably were a couple of people, not that I saw them
12 myself, because this incident outside the station at the door or itself,
13 that's something that I experienced myself, Lukic slapping me. I was
14 brought there by Todorovic Nebojsa and Popovic Goran, and they took me
15 from there all the way out to the military warehouse, the one that you
16 saw with the three doors.
17 Q. And at the time of your arrest your two eldest sons were --
18 A. I'm telling you what I saw. If I didn't see something, I say it
19 clearly I didn't see it.
20 Q. Just for the record, the transcript did not get the last part of
21 my question, which is at the time of your arrest your two eldest sons
22 were fighting.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We see that.
24 MR. ALARID:
25 Q. And, sir, at the time that you were arrested was the first time
1 that you --
2 A. In May. In May. The war began in May. There were houses
3 burning up in the hills, and then the MUP broke up. How should I put it?
4 People left, and then there was a lot of friction. There were civilians.
5 People were fleeing. Some people were arrested, and some people left.
6 This all began in May.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, thank you very much --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And in June --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
10 MR. ALARID:
11 Q. Now, in your statement you do indicate that you noticed Milan
12 Lukic coming occasionally except for an 8-month period. Can you tell us
13 what that 8-month period was?
14 A. Well, I don't really know how long that period was. For quite
15 some time he wouldn't turn up. When did he turn up, there was this once
16 he brought a pistol. He stood in front of me. I didn't know if he
17 wanted to kill me or to protect me, and then the commander tried to
18 protect me, and he said, Well, kill me but don't kill him. It's like
19 something was totally wrong there. I can't really complain -- I'm not
20 complaining about the specific people. I'm just complaining about the
21 events, about what actually happened.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. And if I were to tell you that Milan Lukic was
23 in gaol from February 1993 through July 1994, would that help orientate
25 A. Well, I'll try and answer that one. In 1993, Guso Ramo and Gojak
1 Ahmo were brought. Gojak Ahmo was not from my municipality. He was from
2 Prijepolje, and Guso Ramo was from my municipality. He was an employee
3 of Varda, and he lived over at Banpolje.
4 Gojak -- what did you say? You were saying something about us
5 being together in prison in Belgrade
6 Well, there you go. That's what Almir said, and that's as much as he
7 said, and then Ahmo said, Okay, if you -- 2.000. He gave him 2.000 marks
8 to Milan
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to let him live, and then there
11 were other people from --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: And we take the adjournment now.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you could please fix my headset.
16 It's falling off my head.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, please continue.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like it to be tighter. Yes.
19 It was loose. Thank you. It's good now.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. Sir, before we left, you know, one of the things I was trying to
22 get an exact answer on or as exact an answer as you can give, is the date
23 that you put your family -- I need to know the date you put your family
24 onto the convoy. And even if you can't remember the date, if you could
25 tell me in relation to your last day of work or maybe how many days
1 before you were arrested or something that can help us understand the
2 exact date of that convoy. Can you do that?
3 A. I don't know exactly. It seems it was the 14th of June.
4 Q. And so you took your family, including Almir, to the convoy on --
5 A. My wife remembers everything better than I do. She can tell you
6 the hour, if necessary. I should have taken her with me. I think it was
7 the beginning of June. I can't remember the day.
8 Q. Do you remember how many days before the date of your arrest that
10 A. Well, they left with the convoy, and from that time on I went up
11 the river where my feet took me. I didn't dare to go with them on the
12 convoy because I heard people being taken off.
13 Q. And when you were arrested, is it true that the soldiers had
14 signs of the SDS on them?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it true --
17 A. Most of them, they elected that party, that democratic party.
18 Q. Now, is it true that the police that arrested you had sniper
20 A. It was automatic weapons, not ordinary weapons, but those
21 automatic weapons were of varying calibre. They were automatic, but I
22 could not distinguish because I was never familiar with weapons. I never
23 served in the army, and I never got a weapon myself. An automatic rifle
24 is better than an ordinary rifle.
25 Q. Sir, if I were to tell you in your statement in 1998 you
1 indicated that the men arrested you had sniper rifles, would that help --
2 would you defer to your statement?
3 A. Once at the barracks, this Dragan said it has this thing on top
4 so you can see far and clearly. I was never able to distinguish between
5 weapons myself because I never handled them.
6 Q. Dragan who, sir?
7 A. Dragan Popovic, the one who captured me, and Nebojsa Todorovic.
8 Q. Okay. And so that is -- that is the person that you were
9 arrested by, correct?
10 A. Yes. Those two arrested me.
11 Q. And these -- and these rifles had a telescopic sight, correct?
12 A. It had something like a small mirror. You look into it, and far
13 away things seem much closer up. You can hit anyone. If that's what a
14 sniper is.
15 Q. And in your statement you indicated that they had camouflage
16 uniforms, but you couldn't tell if they were army or police. Could you
17 tell me the colour of the camouflage?
18 A. One group was in blue uniforms, not light blue, and another group
19 was in camouflage. I cannot tell you very exactly now, but the blueish
20 uniforms were the kind of blue like my shirt.
21 Q. And when you first saw Milan Lukic, isn't it true that he was
22 wearing a blue uniform?
23 A. Whether it was their blue police colour, yes. He wasn't wearing
24 a camouflage uniform. He was wearing what looked like a police uniform,
25 not a camouflage one.
1 Q. And when you would see him at other times, did he have a blue
2 police uniform on?
3 A. Sometimes he wore even a tracksuit.
4 Q. Now, before you were captured, when did the aggression start
5 between the SDS and the Muslims?
6 A. It could be the end of May. I don't know which day. The army of
7 the Uzice Corps left in the end of May, and after their departure those
8 so-called Eagles came to the company in some sort of uniform, although
9 some were wearing civilian clothes.
10 Q. And is it true that the Uzice Corps came to disarm the Muslim
11 people and help the SDS take control of Visegrad?
12 A. It wasn't clear to us, for instance -- I asked one of the
13 soldiers of the corps why the corps had come, and he said to protect the
14 dam from Alija's extremists. Somebody might close the dam and cause a
15 flood. But they did not act in a hostile manner. Shells were falling,
16 people dispersed, and this man said to me, "We are not touching
17 civilians." There were very few people, and they said people can return
18 to work. I did go back to work in order not to lose my job.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
20 MR. ALARID:
21 Q. Isn't it -- isn't it true that during this time the Uzice Corps
22 were there they plundered the goods -- completely plundered the goods of
24 A. You mean the corps. The corps did not take anything. They were
25 just there to stabilise peace. They had suspicions that something might
1 happen. So when we went to work, we would encounter these three men from
2 the corps. We would pass through and then come to a point where we would
3 have to show our IDs, and on the way back another group might check our
4 IDs. They did not act in any hostile manner. According to some sort of
5 agreement, they had to leave; and after their departure, chaos returned.
6 These Eagles came. Who they were, I have no clue. When I asked other
7 people, they said they were paramilitaries.
8 Q. Sir, do you remember giving a statement on the 23rd of December,
9 1994, after your release from the Uzamnica barracks?
10 A. Later I gave some statements in Nedzarici when some lawyers,
11 people from the court came. I don't know their exact profession. I gave
12 them the lists of people I made, people who had been in the camp and who
13 had been taken away. No one knows where. A few people were exchanged,
14 and ten --
15 Q. Sir --
16 A. -- remained.
17 Q. Do you recall in that 1994 statement indicating that Medo Smajic
18 and his wife as well as Safet Cavkusic and his wife were killed by the
19 Uzice Corps as well as others?
20 A. I did not give that particular statement, and I am not familiar
21 with their killing. I know about Smajic, the employee of Varda. When
22 his son came to work, he said, "You say there are no killings, but I
23 found my mother and father dead." And a woman from Donja Mahala said
24 Safet Cavkusic and his wife were killed in their own home. It's --
25 Q. And, sir, is it true --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Sartorio.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I don't want to interrupt the flow,
3 but if -- since Defence counsel to going to refer to a prior statement it
4 would be helpful if he directs my attention to that section because the
5 way I read the statement, he didn't say anything about the Uzice Corps
6 killing them.
7 MR. ALARID: Page -- page -- page 3 of the December 23rd
8 statement, middle paragraph.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Just a minute.
10 Ms. Sartorio is right. You must direct us to the page.
11 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. Thank you.
12 MR. ALARID: Yes, sir. And we could even upload -- bring up
13 1D10-1916. The B/C/S version is 1D10-1925. It's page 3, middle
14 paragraph; and on the B/C/S version, I'm not quite sure to be honest. It
15 would be top third of page 2, I believe.
16 Q. Can you see that, sir?
17 A. It's scrolling too fast. I can't ... I think this date is
19 Q. And did you -- and you did give this statement in 1994 after your
21 A. This part which I'm seeing right now, when the water was
22 released, it says here in April, the water level increased and people
23 left for Gorazde. Later, little by little people came back, but when
24 they left again some never came back.
25 Q. Now -- now, sir --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is talking to the side of the
2 microphone. If he could please lean back in his chair.
3 MR. ALARID:
4 Q. Now, sir can I ask you --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
6 MR. ALARID:
7 Q. Now, can I ask you a couple of other questions, please. In your
8 statement, a little bit earlier on page 2 of the English version, you
9 say: "I also know that Serbs in Visegrad were armed and that the SDS
10 with its Crisis Staff armed them." Is that true?
11 A. I don't think people had weapons. Maybe individuals had one or
12 two, but those people were very well armed, and it couldn't have been any
13 other weapons than those provided by the army. If you ask me about this,
14 I have an answer.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have about ten minutes left.
16 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Do you know the members of the Crisis Staff in Visegrad?
18 A. You mean soldiers?
19 Q. The SDS.
20 A. Well, in Visegrad most of them were members.
21 Q. Do you know --
22 A. It was a party that they established, I believe. It was called
23 SDS, and all of them in the Visegrad municipality were members of that
24 party. I don't know that they had any other party.
25 Q. And did the SDS extremists push the violence against the Muslims
1 in Visegrad?
2 A. As I heard, they raised fears and encouraged the building of
3 bunkers. They said there was a threat. I don't know why, why they
4 needed to sow discord among people. I suppose they didn't like that
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina proclaimed its independence. I wasn't there to
6 see who clashed with whom. I didn't see it, and I don't know how all
7 this started. When the corps left, it was then that --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Witness.
9 MR. ALARID:
10 Q. One more question. Are you certain that it's Milan Lukic that
11 came to you in September of 1993 and beat you?
12 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993, yes.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Sartorio.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only me. He beat a number of
16 other people, and he kicked me. He had trainers on his feet when he
17 kicked me and pressed me to the floor with his foot. It was not only
18 once, it was several times. He beat other people and tortured them much
19 worse than he did me.
20 MR. ALARID: Thank you. No further questions.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Dieckmann:
23 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. Dervisevic.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. My name is Jens Dieckmann. I'm Defence counsel for Mr. Sredoje
1 Lukic, and I have just a few number of questions to you, and --
2 A. May you be greeted. Go ahead.
3 Q. In my questions, I will try to be as short and precise as
4 possible, and I would really appreciate if you also could try to be
5 precise and short so that you could finish for all of us as soon as
6 possible. Did you understand me?
7 A. I understand. It's clear.
8 Q. Before I start, please let me offer you condolences for your
9 children lost in the war and behalf of the whole Defence team, and we are
10 well aware of the pain and suffer you have gone through, and when I put
11 my questions to you I will do it with all respect to your situation.
12 A. Thank you.
20 Q. Sorry. Mr. Witness, in the course of the further questions, I
21 would highly appreciate if you and myself just use the first numbers of
22 this person and do not call them by their names. Do you understand this?
23 A. All right.
24 Q. So if I refer to the person in the first line, I will call this
25 person VG-25. And if you refer to this person, I would be grateful if
1 you could also say VG-25.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dervisevic, do you know VG-25?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. VG-25 was together with you in the Uzamnica camp?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. Now, do you remember how many months you have been together
9 A. Five or six months, not much.
10 Q. Is it perhaps even possible for you to remember the specific time
11 period, from which month and which year to the other month?
12 A. June 1992.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. No, no, no. I'm sorry. It could be -- it was in the summer
15 period, maybe August. Yes, he was there, and he was sent to be
16 exchanged. He was there for a couple of months.
17 Q. So he arrives there in the summer 1992?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you know VG-3?
20 A. I know.
21 Q. And again I ask you, have you been together with him in the
22 Uzamnica camp?
23 A. Yes. He even survived to the exchange when we were exchanged
24 together on the 10th of October. I know him.
25 Q. And could you also specify how many months you have been together
1 in the camp?
2 A. He was captured in June, and he was with us all the time. He had
3 been brought wounded. His leg was bandaged. I think he was wounded.
4 How, I don't know. Maybe he was a fighting man of Ahmet Sejdic. Those
5 first two were fighting men.
6 Q. Is it June 1992 that he has been brought to the camp?
7 A. I think -- I don't think July has passed. I can't be exact to a
8 day, but the rest is all accurate. I guarantee for that. It's just the
9 dates that I am not sure about. Both of them are still alive.
10 Q. You have said that VG-3 was with you all the time. What -- what
11 do you mean by this? Does it mean that he was with you together up to
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. And at least I would like to ask you the same
15 questions regarding VG-8. Do you know him?
25 Q. Thank you. And he arrived also in summer '92 or later?
1 A. August, '92, late anyway. You see, I said about '93, how they
2 brought Ramo Guso and Ahmo Gojak. Ramo Guso is from our municipality,
3 from Banpolje. And then he said all those houses up there in the hill
4 were abandoned, those Serbs there. People would go and pick up some
5 fruit to eat. Yeah, so he survived. He's very thin, very thin and
7 Q. Thank you. I'm very grateful. Thank you very much. All of you
8 have been -- or have been forced to live together in one hangar, in one
9 barrack? Is it true?
10 A. We were all in one hangar. That's what some people called them,
11 but these were military warehouses and storage facilities. We were all
12 in one of those. You saw that in the photograph with the door. We were
13 in the middle section.
14 Q. So you have had the opportunity to realise that when something
15 happened to one of you, the other realised what happened to him. Is it
17 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. It doesn't --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 MS. SARTORIO: I think the question doesn't make -- isn't clear.
20 MR. DIECKMANN: I'm sorry. I will rephrase my question.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
22 MR. DIECKMANN: Sorry.
23 Q. So when you live together in one room, you have had the
24 opportunity to see if something happened to one of you. If one of you
25 has been mistreated or beaten, the other ones notices this. Is it true?
1 A. Well, that's as long as it's something happening in this prison,
2 but we didn't know about anything else. For example, some -- somebody
3 was taken away and we knew nothing about that. The door slams shut.
4 They take him somewhere. If he's still alive, maybe he'll get in touch.
5 He is no longer alive, okay, those who are in the know should say so.
6 There are just these two persons who were brought in 1993. They were
7 there for, how long, maybe up to two months, Guso Ramo and Gojak Ahmo.
8 That's as far as I know.
9 All the time -- well, actually whoever was there had to be in
10 that warehouse, and some people were taken away, and then the exchange
12 Q. Thank you. One last question to this topics. Is it fair to say
13 that in comparison to the other three people that you have spent the
14 longest time in Uzamnica camp? Have you spent there the longest time
15 from you four with 28 months?
16 A. Yes. Yes. I have documents showing that. Were there other
17 camps elsewhere? No, not in Visegrad municipality. Maybe there was that
18 school building or whatever else they're saying, people being locked up,
19 but this was a real military camp, the warehouse, and that's all I know
20 about. I don't know about elsewhere. I'm telling you about what I went
21 through and the people who were there. How on earth am I supposed to
22 know what happened elsewhere?
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Dervisevic, you know Sredoje Lukic? You
24 know Sredoje Lukic before the war?
25 A. Yes. Yes. It's that man over there on the right. I know him.
1 We --
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you. In the document tendered into
3 evidence as P112, you said that you know -- knew him approximately 15
4 years before the war as a policeman in Visegrad. Is it true? Is it is
5 it your statement that you know him such a long time?
6 MS. SARTORIO: Again, Your Honour, could we have the reference in
7 the statement, please?
8 MR. DIECKMANN: Yes. Yes. It is -- I'm sorry. Is this page 2
9 of this document, and it's from -- from the -- from the bottom one, two,
10 three four -- the fifth from the bottom. I can read it out. "I had
11 known Sredoje Lukic for approximately 15 years prior to 1992."
12 Q. This is correct? This is your statement, that you know Sredoje
13 Lukic for such a long time?
14 A. Yes. He worked there. He had a permanent job at the time there.
15 We would see each other in the Mirzalem [phoen] pub, and they would have
16 drinks and that sort of thing. He knows me better than I know him. Yes.
17 Yes. We simply know each other. He had a job there, and I worked in the
18 furniture factory.
19 Q. If you think back to this time before the war, what colour of
20 hair -- what colour has -- the hair of Sredoje Lukic?
21 A. Sredoje Lukic has brown hair.
22 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Mr. Witness, I
23 put it to you that Sredoje Lukic never mistreated or beat you in the
24 Uzamnica camp during the time you have been there. Do you understand me?
25 A. No, he didn't. I know him. He only came once with Milan
1 two of them. I was alone, and another man was brought over who was over
2 70 years of age known as Poljo Semso. Milan beat him. He slapped me a
3 couple of times, and then that man was taken away, and I remained alone
4 in the camp.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
6 I would ask the Court usher to call up the document. I'm sorry.
7 I don't know if the other Defence team tendered the statement from 1994
8 into evidence, so I would call our Defence number. I would ask the court
9 usher to call 2D01-0288. It is an interview to the Ministry of Interior,
10 Visoko department, from the 23rd December, 1994. And I would ask to go
11 to the page -- to page 5 in the B/C/S version.
12 Mr. Witness, in this interview you have had the opportunity to
13 give all names of victims or perpetrators you have been aware of and you
14 know, correct?
15 A. Yes. I named the people. When I gave statements, I named the
16 people who went through the camp, some people who were exchanged
17 privately, and then the people who came there for an exchange, and the
18 rest I simply don't know about. Some people were taken away, and I have
19 no idea what became of them, and I don't know who does.
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And isn't it true that this
21 statement was done just two months after your release from the Uzamnica
22 camp, roughly?
23 A. Well, I couldn't have made this statement. We used nothing in
24 the camp. There was no music, no letters, no newspapers, no -- I think
25 that is nonsense. It was later, after the camp, after my stay at the
1 camp, and then I remember later because those people who went missing
2 from Visegrad municipality, they were no longer there, but I knew about
3 that, and I wrote down the names, and may somebody tell me I didn't. I
4 know what I know, and I'll say what I know. About 60 people --
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
7 MR. DIECKMANN:
8 Q. Thank you very much. If you have a look to the screen in front
9 you and look on the left side of the screen, is it your signature you can
10 see on the left side?
11 A. There, right there. Yes, it's my signature.
12 Q. Thank you. And you have been aware that with this signature you
13 declared that this statement is the truth and nothing but the truth?
14 A. Yes. I am certain about that.
15 Q. Thank you very much. And isn't it true that you did not mention
16 Sredoje Lukic in this statement done two months after your release at
17 all? You didn't mention him at all in this statement? Isn't it true?
18 A. I may have left his name out because he was there once. I may
19 have left that out. Let me just have a look and see if this is the list
20 that I provided in my statement. It's possible that I left something out
21 but -- well, he was there. He can tell you himself. He can look me in
22 the eye and say he came that once and Milan brought him there.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. And then we know what happened.
25 MR. DIECKMANN: May I tender this statement into evidence.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit number 2D15, Your
4 MR. DIECKMANN:
5 Q. May I now ask the court usher to bring up the document 2D01-0707.
6 This is the second interview to Ministry of Interior, Visoko department,
7 from 6 January 1995
8 A. Yes. They called me to the MUP in Visoko, and then I told them
9 what I knew. And then when I came back to Sarajevo, this was given to
10 the United -- the Nedzarici FCOC or whatever.
11 Q. Could we scroll down to page 5 of the B/C/S version. Is it
12 already down? Oh, sorry.
13 Sir, again, is it on the left side of the screen, is it your
14 signature on the statement from the 6 January 1995?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And isn't it true that you did not
17 mention Sredoje at all, also, in this statement from the 6th January,
18 1995, being asked questions about your situation in the camp during the
19 last month?
20 A. I don't think I left him out. I'm just telling you what
21 happened, and I stated that on the record to the best of my ability. He
22 came once, that once. I did see him. Milan slapped me, slapped Semso,
23 and then this man was with them. There was something going on there, and
24 then I was left alone.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you very much.
1 MR. DIECKMANN: Could we also tender this document into evidence.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit number 2D16, Your
5 MR. DIECKMANN: Could the court usher please call up the document
6 2D01-0728. This is the witness interview to Ministry of Security,
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the 22nd of June, 2007. And it must also be the
8 fifth -- page 5 of the B/C/S version.
9 Perhaps could you scroll down to the end. Yes. Thank you very
11 Q. Mr. Witness, could you identify your signature under this
12 document on the screen in front of you?
13 A. There, right there. It's printed right there. I wrote this, but
14 my hands were shaking at the time, and I couldn't do any better than
15 this. And then over time, my hand became steadier. Given my condition
16 at the time, even this was a decent job, and I have to use my glasses to
17 do this, you know.
18 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness. Isn't it true that also in
19 this interview you had had the opportunity to give all names of victims
20 and perpetrators you have been aware of and you know during the time you
21 have had in the Uzamnica camp? Isn't it true?
22 A. I have a brochure about that. I keep it in my home, but I have
23 it on me right now just in case, and I have my papers, documents showing
24 that I was a victim of war. If you want me to, I can bring that to you.
25 You want me to count this, but one thing I can tell you for sure is that
1 I have a list of those people who were in that camp. Maybe some people
2 were taken away. Maybe someone is alive somewhere out there --
3 Q. I'm very well aware. Thank you very much. I'm very well aware
4 what you have suffered during this time. Thank you. Thank you very
6 But again, sir, isn't it true that also in this third statement
7 from 2007, you did not mention Sredoje at all regarding the situation in
8 Uzamnica camp during the time you have been there?
9 A. I think I did mention him. Why would I mention Milan
10 Sredoje if that's how it happened? I don't know. You're asking me this.
11 Is there another man named Lukic? I don't know. I know there are plenty
12 named Lucic, but I don't think so. You know, mistakes are always
13 possible. People leave stuff out, you know, but that's what I'm looking
14 at, and this is what I'm telling you now.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you very much.
16 Sir, today you have been asked by the Prosecution, and I refer to
17 page 49, line 10 up to 17, and I may quote: "Did anyone else beat you
18 other than Milan Lukic during your time in detention?" And in your
19 answer, again, you did not mention Sredoje at all. Isn't it your
20 statement under oath today?
21 A. I only saw Sredoje that once, and he only did that to me that
22 once. Anything else would be a lie. But there is something I got from
23 Spasojevic Milan or Mico Spasojevic.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
25 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Saban Murat Agic I got some from
2 him too. Spasojevic took him along, and then they said --
3 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you. You have answered my question. I
4 don't have any further questions for the witness. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. A few re-direct, Your Honour.
7 Re-examination by Ms. Sartorio:
8 Q. Witness, while you were in the detention camp, did you have a
9 calendar with you, or was there a calendar in the camp?
10 A. None in the camp, nor did I have anything on me to write. Once I
11 left the camp, from Visoko to Sarajevo
12 because --
13 Q. I just wanted to know about in the camp, okay? Did you have
14 anyway of keeping track of the days that went by?
15 A. No. No. I had no way. I wasn't allowed to have anything, to
16 keep anything. If there had been a policy in place, maybe we would have
17 had music, newspapers, you know, but we had to leave everything outside
18 the camp --
19 Q. Thank you, Witness.
20 A. -- our clothes, our shoes, that sort of thing.
21 Q. So are you able to tell us today the exact month that was the
22 last time you saw Milan Lukic when he disappeared for a period of time
23 and the exact month that he returned? Are you able to tell us that?
24 A. In 1992 he showed up maybe twice, three times, perhaps, and then
25 another time in 1993. So he was seen less and less as time went on. For
1 two or three or four months he would be gone, and he wasn't to be seen
2 anywhere around.
3 Q. But you can't -- can you tell us today any -- and only if you
4 remember, any of the months that you saw him there?
5 A. In 1994, I don't know the month, he came with a revolver. He
6 came to prison. He stood there right in front of me, and then the
7 commander was their Commander Jelkic, who was the last commander for the
8 guards there, and he sort of wanted to cover me with his own body just in
9 case the man fired so he would go too. He wanted to protect me.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand.
11 MS. SARTORIO:
12 Q. Witness, just -- the question is really a yes or no question. Do
13 you remember the exact months --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Which months did you see Milan Lukic?
16 A. Yes, in 1994 when the most recent commander of the guards was
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What month? Witness --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, the question was whether you remembered
21 the month that you saw Milan Lukic. Do you remember the month that you
22 saw him?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last time.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can't take it any further.
25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Just a few more
2 Q. Sir, on -- you -- sir, there's no question before you.
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Okay. Just a few more questions, sir. You did talk about seeing
5 Sredoje once at the detention camp. Can you tell us if -- did he do
6 anything to you and what -- and if he did, what did he do?
7 MR. CEPIC: Leading.
8 MS. SARTORIO: That's --
9 MR. CEPIC: And we already have answer, Your Honour, with your
11 MS. SARTORIO: I think it was -- they confused the witness on
12 cross-examination, Your Honour, and I think --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: He answered that already, yes.
14 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.
15 Q. Just --
16 A. He slapped me several times, hit me several times.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness. Witness, there's no question.
18 A. And Milan
19 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness.
20 A. But I didn't. You know, I can't say that he did. He just hit me
21 several times. He slapped me across the face.
22 Q. Just a few more questions. While you were at the detention camp,
23 sir, did you have any chores that you had to do?
24 A. What do you mean? I was milking the cows.
25 Q. Can you --
1 A. I was never taken back to town for maybe six months. You know, I
2 took care of everything there. I would clean the prison up, tidy up, and
3 then the facilities where we relieved ourselves, just to make sure that
4 everything was clean when the Red Cross came.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. And then later, I -- we did some farming, and then out in our
7 company and so on and so forth.
8 Q. So do you know if other detainees did any work outside of the
9 barracks? In other words, would detainees leave sometime during the day
10 and then return that same day later?
11 MR. CEPIC: I think that --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
13 MR. CEPIC: I think this is a leading question again.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it is partially leading.
15 MR. ALARID: And beyond the scope of cross-examination.
16 MS. SARTORIO: No, it isn't, Your Honour, because Mr. Dieckmann
17 asked -- tried to establish that all of the pseudonymed persons were all
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have to reformulate it in a non-leading
21 MS. SARTORIO: I will, Your Honour. I will. Thank you.
22 Q. Sir, did you ever see any of the detainees leave the barracks
23 during the day and then return?
24 A. Come and go. They went out to work, they were divided in groups.
25 It wasn't all just one group. There were several groups. One of them
1 roughly speaking, a young man named Mirzet from Gostilje, named Bajic,
2 Bajic Mirzet, and then he left with Saban, that one, you know which one I
3 mean, Muratovic, and then they were off to do something, you know, and
4 then they --
5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. No further --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. -- I wanted to find out whether you have any
7 evidence --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Whether you have any evidence as
10 to whether the conflict had any effect on this witness, any -- whether
11 he's suffered any kind of injury or sustained any kind of a -- whatever
12 kind of damage. Do you have any evidence as to that?
13 MS. SARTORIO: I did ask him on direct, Your Honour, what -- but
14 he didn't provide details. I can ask him again if you would like.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Maybe you might be able to get it independently,
16 independently of him, from somebody else.
17 MS. SARTORIO: If Your Honour requests that, we can certainly do
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm interested if it is a result of the
21 MS. SARTORIO: Yes. I'll ask him one further question about --
22 Q. Sir, are you currently taking medication?
23 A. Of course.
24 MS. SARTORIO: May we go into private session?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 2011 redacted. Private session.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of
15 September, 2008, at 2:15 p.m.