Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2116

 1                           Tuesday, 23 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 6             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just have one preliminary

 7     question with your leave related to the OTP witness Ewa Tabeau.  Namely

 8     yesterday OTP requested admission of uploading -- uploaded report which

 9     was filed just yesterday and which is conducted during the weekend which

10     wasn't on the 65 ter list.  They did not request admission of the basic

11     report from 2001 which was filed on 65 ter list and I tried to compare

12     those two reports and I found some discrepancies and actually for the

13     preparation of cross-examination I need additional time because this is a

14     completely new -- new matter.  That is completely new report.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I know you weren't dealing with

16     this, but are you in a position to respond?

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, my understanding is and Ms. Marcus will

18     actually be taking one of the witnesses this afternoon so she may be able

19     to deal more specifically with it, but my understanding of this new

20     report is it simply reflects -- none of the conclusions have changed.  It

21     simply reflects some new data that has become available recently and

22     Ms. Tabeau just updated the data sources.  But and Mr. Cepic to correct

23     me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that none of her conclusions

24     regarding the report have changed in any way.  It's simply updating some

25     of the numbers as reflected in some newly acquired data.

Page 2117

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So, Mr. Cepic, if I understand you correctly

 2     then, you -- you have done a comparison between the new updated report

 3     and the old one of 2001 and you have found discrepancies.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Precisely, Your Honour.  Actually, I couldn't do in

 5     very short period of time to complete my comparison, but as far as I

 6     understand up to now, there are different sources, there are some

 7     differences, some discrepancies, but for the -- to complete my

 8     comparison, I need additional time.  That's the problem.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That is the -- that's your basic problem.  You

10     say you need additional time.

11             MR. CEPIC:  Exactly, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Because we were scheduled to have you on

13     tomorrow.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  For cross-examination.  Now we have a witness on

16     Thursday, and it is very important that we take that witness, as I

17     understand it.

18             Mr. Groome?

19             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would be renewing my

20     application to deal Thursday with a particular witness, start and finish

21     that witness on a single day.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But, Mr. Cepic, if you have this report and

23     you're able to find discrepancies, why do you need more time if you've

24     already found the discrepancies?

25             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, yesterday is disclosed the new updated

Page 2118

 1     report, and I couldn't do that in just couple hours.  As I said, I

 2     couldn't complete my -- my comparation between those two material, and

 3     additionally yesterday we received and the Prosecutor requested admission

 4     of two new tables which they contain the names of missing persons.  This

 5     is also new material.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I see you have three more witnesses

 7     lined up for this week, on the 23rd, the 24th, and the 25th.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, one of those witnesses is a witness

 9     that we made an application for a subpoena.  It's my understanding that

10     it's kind of out of our hands now so we're not even sure when this

11     witness -- if the witness receives the subpoena when they'll arrive in

12     The Hague.  I don't know whether that witness is here.  Perhaps the court

13     officer can inform the Chamber whether it's likely that VG-17 will appear

14     this week.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The court officer doesn't have any information

17     right now, but she's expecting some news shortly.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, when Ms. Marcus arrives, and she has

20     greater familiarity with this matter, I'll deal with it.

21             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Is there any other procedural matter?

23             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, let the witness be called.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 2119

 1                           WITNESS:  JOHN CLARK [Resumed]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please sit.  And, Dr. Clark, you remain subject

 3     to the declaration that you made.

 4             Ms. Mazzocco, you had completed your examination-in-chief?

 5             MS. MAZZOCCO:  I suppose there should be the cross by the Defence

 6     counsel for Sredoje Lukic.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, then.

 8             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Dieckmann has prepared some

 9     questions for the witness.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann.  Mr. Dieckmann, yes.

11             MR. DIECKMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Dieckmann:

13        Q.   Dr. Clark, good afternoon.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   My name is Jens Dieckmann and I am counsel for Sredoje Lukic.

16     Since your report that is P122 in evidence is not directly related to our

17     client, I just have some questions for clarification.

18        A.   Okay.

19        Q.   Dr. Clark, when you conducted your autopsies did you have any

20     indication as to when these people died?

21        A.   Other than just the information we were given that they had died

22     in about 1992.

23        Q.   Did you have any indication as to how long they had been buried

24     for?

25        A.   No.  Nothing specific.

Page 2120

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. DIECKMANN:  Could the court officer call in evidence the

 3     document P122.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   I refer to the second paragraph, and I just would like to read

 5     the first sentences to make clear what I am referring to.  I quote:  "We

 6     were informed that these were alleged to be the bodies of people killed

 7     in or around Visegrad in the summer of 1992, including people who had

 8     been shot on the bridge and thrown over the side.  Their bodies ended up

 9     in the River Drina below and were carried downstream for approximately 20

10     kilometres to where the river takes a major bend at Zepa.  There, the

11     bodies were recovered from the water by local people and buried in a

12     wooded area a little distance away.  They were placed into mainly

13     individual graves, each marked by a wooden post on which a number or name

14     was carved.  At the time of the examination eight years later the site

15     was designated as Slap 1."

16             So, Dr. Clark, is it fair to say that prior to your involvement

17     in these autopsies you have already received information that these

18     bodies had been in the ground for circa eight years?

19        A.   That was the general information, yes.

20        Q.   So there wasn't --

21        A.   Sorry --

22        Q.   Sorry.

23        A.   Yes, I suppose, yeah, it would be eight years.  I was going to

24     say that the information was that they were killed eight years earlier

25     but I suppose by inference they were probably buried around about the

Page 2121

 1     same time.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So there was no independent assessment to contradict

 3     that assumption?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   So before you were involved in the specific autopsies, did you

 6     receive some briefing from an investigator involved with the ICTY or

 7     investigators of local authorities?

 8        A.   We received a briefing document from a local Judge, cantonal

 9     Judge.

10        Q.   So is it fair to say that you were informed in a general sense as

11     to the perceived is circumstances under which these victims had met their

12     deaths before you started the specific autopsy?

13        A.   In a general sense, yes.

14        Q.   I think I'm too fast.  Yes.  Okay.  So you would not have come to

15     the case with an open mind as to whether these were potentially victims

16     in a combat situation as equally as victims in alleged execution.  Is

17     that fair?

18        A.   I think professionally I can -- I can maintain an independence.

19     It's not difficult.  And if I had come across evidence that these were

20     combat casualties in the sense that we found military clothing or

21     ammunitions, that would most certainly be recorded in the report.

22        Q.   In your mind the balance weighed in favour of the fact that these

23     were people who had been victims of alleged executions.  Is it correct to

24     say, that there was rather a balance that they are victims?

25        A.   Yes, again in the sense that there was no real evidence that

Page 2122

 1     these were any military background here.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So again in fact you do not know how long the

 3     recovered bodies were buried there?

 4        A.   Not specifically, no.  Not precisely.

 5        Q.   And in fact -- in fact, you do not know if these bodies -- in

 6     fact, you do not know if these bodies have spent any time in water before

 7     being buried?

 8        A.   I can't say that specifically, no.

 9        Q.   And --

10        A.   The changes on -- affecting a body being in a water are on the

11     skin and other soft tissues, and of course that was present, so I can't

12     specifically say they were in water.

13        Q.   So due to your examinations -- I'm sorry, there's a translation

14     problem with the B/C/S.  I'm sorry.

15             So if I may conclude.  Due to your examination and your scope of

16     examinations, it is equally likely that these bodies were never in the

17     water of the Drina River?

18        A.   It is possible, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. DIECKMANN:  I don't have any further questions of this

21     witness.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Dieckmann.

23             Any re-examination, Ms. Mazzocco?

24             MS. MAZZOCCO:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

25                           Re-examination by Ms. Mazzocco:

Page 2123

 1        Q.   Dr. Clark, did you find the personal possession on the bodies?

 2        A.   We found some personal possessions, yes.

 3        Q.   Did you find clothing on the bodies?

 4        A.   On the majority of bodies, yes, were clothing.

 5        Q.   Did you find any military clothing on the bodies?

 6        A.   No.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please observe a pause for

 8     the benefit of the interpreters.  Thank you.

 9             MS. MAZZOCCO:

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   Sorry, I didn't hear that last question.

12        Q.   Did you find any firearms or bullets in their possession -- or

13     bullet, sorry.

14        A.   I can't remember.  I don't think we found any firearms.  I think

15     on one of the bodies in Slap 2, we found three bullets.

16             MS. MAZZOCCO:  Can be displayed page 7 of Exhibit P122.

17             THE WITNESS:  I think I can see what you're getting at.  I've

18     specifically said that none of the victims was wearing any military

19     clothing and none had any firearms or bullets in their possession.  I

20     would qualify that by, having looked at the files again that in the grave

21     of one of the bodies in Slap 2, I do remember we found three bullets.

22     Whether they belonged to that body or not I don't know, but they were in

23     that grave.

24        Q.   Were these bullet in the clothing of this body or in the body

25     itself?

Page 2124

 1        A.   No, no, just loose in -- loose in -- these were unused.  These

 2     were unused rounds of application which were in -- in the grave.  Not

 3     necessarily with the body, but they were beside the body.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And is it possible to say how long it takes for a

 5     body to became a skeleton?

 6        A.   It depends entirely where the body is.  A body will degenerate to

 7     a skeleton -- if it's left outside in the air, depending on the time of

 8     year, depending on whether there are animals and insects about, a body

 9     could be reduced to a skeleton as quickly as six or seven weeks or so,

10     but equally long -- it could be much longer.  A body that is in water

11     will take longer to decompose or to reduce to skeleton, and a body that

12     is buried will take even longer.

13             It's an impossible question to answer, I'm afraid.  I have seen

14     people -- bodies reduced to a skeleton within eight weeks -- six weeks,

15     six weeks in fact, yet many of the bodies that we saw in other grave

16     sites in my work in the Balkans had been buried for equal amount of time

17     and still had a lot of flesh on them.  It is very variable.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was there -- was there any judicial authority present

19     at the time of exhumation?

20        A.   I believe that certainly in the Slap -- Slap 2 cases --

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, just in interest to speed up procedure.

23     I think we already have this answer, and some questions sounds to me that

24     this is a new direct examination.  Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How does this arise, Ms. Mazzocco?

Page 2125

 1             MS. MAZZOCCO:  Because yesterday in the cross-examination was

 2     suggested some mishandling of the bodies, that the bodies could be mixed

 3     up and not well brought to the mortuary.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, very well.  Yes.

 5             MS. MAZZOCCO:

 6        Q.   So --

 7        A.   Certainly on the exhumation of the Slap 2 bodies, because I was

 8     actually present at that time, there was a Judge.  A local Judge was

 9     there.  I do not know who was present in the Slap 1 bodies, but I can

10     only imagine that there would have been a Judge there.

11        Q.   And was there any judicial authority present at the time of

12     identification?

13        A.   I think there was, yes.  I think the same Judge was present at

14     least some of the time.

15        Q.   And going back to that identification of Osmanagic, that body

16     361, the Exhibit P124, can you explain where it happened?

17        A.   The identification?

18        Q.   Yeah.

19        A.   From memory we worked -- we worked in a mortuary in Visoko, and

20     this was -- also happened to be the local graveyard and undertaker, so we

21     handed the bodies back to them in the same area, and the identification

22     subsequently took place actually on the roof of our mortuary.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

24             MS. MAZZOCCO:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Doctor.  That concludes

Page 2126

 1     your evidence.  We thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And you're now dismissed.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness, please.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next Prosecution witness is Mirsad

 7     Tokaca.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 9             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave just for

10     the transcript, we do not see the testimony of this witness as relevant

11     because he is not an eyewitness in terms of the indictment with regard to

12     this legal matter, or he is a hearsay witness, if I can put it that way.

13     Thank you.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't understand why you say that, because we

15     take in hearsay evidence in this judicial system.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness

18     there's one matter I would like to ask the Chamber to give some

19     consideration to.  With a view towards expediting the witnesses that the

20     Prosecution has -- has a pending application to -- to add to our witness

21     list, I would note that today we have provided unredacted statements of

22     all the witnesses to Defence counsel not in anticipation of the Chamber's

23     decision but at least give them the most notice about the statements.

24     With one exception and that one where we're seeking a particular

25     protective measure in terms of redaction of one of the statements.

Page 2127

 1             My question to the Chamber is -- or what I would ask the Chamber

 2     to consider is we have not had an opportunity to explore with any of

 3     these people whether there's a need for protective measures, and I'm

 4     wondering whether -- what the views of Defence counsel would be and

 5     whether the Chamber would consider if we dealt with the issue of

 6     protective measures on an oral basis so that when the witness arrives we

 7     can bring to the Chamber's attention any concern they have and a decision

 8     could be made or would the Chamber require us to do the standard written

 9     filings for protective measures.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

11             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, we have not receive any material related

12     to some witnesses, and my learned friend Mr. Groome can remind me,

13     Professor Markovic, I haven't found his name on the list.  Thank you.

14             MR. GROOME:  It may be in transit now, but I issued a directive

15     this morning that they be disclosed today.  So it may be just at the end

16     of the day now that they're received.  If there's any problem I would be

17     happy to deal -- discuss that with Defence counsel after court.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

19             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise for interrupting, but who is

20     Professor Markovic?  I never heard before that name on the list of

21     witnesses.  Thank you.

22             MR. GROOME:  Nor have I, Your Honour.  We discuss it after court.

23     It may be perhaps this statement mentions a witness and it may be

24     disclosed pursuant to Rule 68, but I would be happy to go over any of the

25     statements with Mr. Cepic over the break or afterwards and clarify

Page 2128

 1     anything that's not clear from the statement itself.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There's no problem with your raising the issue

 3     of protective measures orally.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  While we're on the matter

 5     of protective measures, I have spoken once again to Zehra Turjacanin to

 6     confirm that it really is indeed her wish to testify publicly and she

 7     reaffirmed to me earlier today that it is her wish not to have any

 8     protective measures so at this time I would be formally requesting that

 9     the protective measures pertaining to her be amended so that she

10     testifies publicly in open session without the use of a pseudonym.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That is to be done.  The witness.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13                           WITNESS:  MIRSAD TOKACA

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.  And you may begin, Madam

19     Prosecutor.

20             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Friedman.

22                           Examination by Ms. Friedman:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, will you please state your name for the record.

24        A.   Mirsad Tokaca, born in Sarajevo on the 28th of July, 1954.

25             MS. FRIEDMAN: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, we'll be

Page 2129

 1     seeking to admit three video clips this afternoon through this witness

 2     and I'm conscious of the time limit for 92 ter witnesses.  This witness

 3     has testified in three trials previously before this Tribunal.  His

 4     educational and professional background and the work of his organisation

 5     is discussed in those trials, and I wanted to make an application to lead

 6     him through this information.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MS. FRIEDMAN:

 9        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, I'm going to summarise your educational and

10     professional background and I will ask you at the end if I have done so

11     accurately.

12             You studied in the University of Sarajevo where you received a

13     diploma in political sciences and also studied law and economics.  Before

14     the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you first worked as a journalist, later as

15     an analyst of social policy and social welfare, and finally in financial

16     marketing management and trade.

17             At the start of the war you began to work for the state

18     commission on gathering facts on war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This

19     organisation was established in April 1992, and you began in the first

20     months of this existence to volunteer your time.  You were then asked to

21     become secretary of the commission, which essentially means that you

22     directed it, at August of 1992.

23             Have I stated that accurately?

24        A.   Yes.  Everything is correct.

25        Q.   Okay.  Next I will briefly summarise the activities of the

Page 2130

 1     commission and will ask you again at the end if it's accurate.

 2             The state commission on gathering facts on war crimes set out to

 3     gather all possible information about war crimes committed against all

 4     ethnicities using written statements, audiotapes, videotapes, and

 5     whatever was available.  This work was undertaken in Sarajevo as well as

 6     in the field wherever additional premises could be established.  All of

 7     the evidence was brought back to the central office in Sarajevo where it

 8     was organised, analysed, and archived.

 9             Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  And finally, I will just ask about your professional

12     activities after you worked at the state commission.

13             In 2003, you formed the Research and Documentation Centre, and

14     you are the president of that institution.  The Research and

15     Documentation Centre functions independently of the government.  It is

16     engaged in various projects, including the human losses project and the

17     Bosnian book of the dead.

18             Have I stated that correctly?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, what happened to the archives of the state

21     commission?

22        A.   Well, you see, we faced many problems over a long period of time.

23     There was pressure and we didn't have sufficient funds for the state

24     commission, the work of the state commission, and after the peace

25     agreement was signed bodies of government were joined by people who

Page 2131

 1     unfortunately were deeply involved in crimes against humanity.  One of

 2     them, Mr. Krajisnik, was tried and convicted by this Tribunal not such a

 3     long ago which in practical terms made our work very difficult, if not

 4     impossible.  I resigned in 2003 simply because we didn't have sufficient

 5     funds to continue our work and then I set up an institute, or, rather, it

 6     was a centre for research which dealt with researching war crimes.  In a

 7     way I wanted a long-term commitment for myself in this line of work and I

 8     wanted to start what we -- I wanted to continue what we first started out

 9     doing as part of the state commission.  All of these documents because at

10     one point unfortunately the state started -- stopped keeping track of

11     these documents, remained in the possession of the research institute.

12     Therefore we physically in every way --

13        Q.   I think you're speaking a bit faster than me.  Could you go a bit

14     slower, please.

15             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Okay.  I'm so sorry.  Okay.  I'm so sorry.

16     I will try to respect.

17        A.   [Interpretation] So, all of the documentation in our possession

18     that we had collected over more than ten years is fully preserved are

19     still available.  We continue to comply with the requests made by any

20     organs of the judiciary that had any interest in this documentation,

21     which included this Tribunal and which at this point in time and over the

22     coming years will probably also include the work of our special

23     commission for war crimes, a special council for war crimes that was

24     established in Sarajevo and has been active over the last three years.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So the archives of the state commission on gathering

Page 2132

 1     facts on war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina, where are they now located?

 2        A.   They're in the archive of the Research and Documentation Centre

 3     based in Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, do you recall testifying in the Vasiljevic trial on

 5     September 21st, 2001?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember that well.  It was about identifying certain

 7     video clips that were in our possession at the time.  Yes, yes, I do

 8     remember.

 9        Q.   Have you had a chance to read that testimony in a language you

10     understand?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And I know you are speaking today in B/C/S, but just for the

13     record, were you able to understand that testimony in English?

14        A.   Yes.  I understand English fully.  I actually speak English but

15     the circumstances being what they are, I'd not wish to leave any room for

16     misinterpretation or anything of that nature, anything that is not fully

17     in line with the extent to which I am a master of my mother tongue, but I

18     have a full understanding of everything that is said and written in

19     English.

20        Q.   And was your testimony accurate?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   If we asked you the same questions today would you give the same

23     answers?

24        A.   I don't know if the wording would be the same but the essence

25     would certainly remain the same.

Page 2133

 1             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to tender 65

 2     ter Exhibit 56, which is Mr. Tokaca's Vasiljevic testimony, into

 3     evidence.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P127, Your Honours.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I would ask the court usher to switch to Sanction.

 7     It's not yet done.  And if Mr. Van Hooydonk could call up 65 ter 193.1

 8     but not play it yet.

 9        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, do you see the first video -- the first still from

10     this video in front of you?

11        A.   I have the image, but it's frozen.

12        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell if this is a video that you've had a chance

13     to see since coming to The Hague?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And what is it?

16        A.   This is one of the refugee collection centres.  I don't know the

17     exact location, but I suppose it might have been somewhere in the

18     surroundings of Zenica.  I'm not entirely certain, though.  Quite

19     obviously, though, this is a refugee collection centre, a place where

20     refugees were being put up at the time.

21        Q.   Did the Research and Documentation Centre provide this video to

22     the Office of the Prosecutor?

23        A.   Yes.  There was a request from the OTP, and we secured the clip

24     for you.  It's in your hands now.

25        Q.   And how did you get this video originally?

Page 2134

 1        A.   Well, you see, that would require me to explain our modus

 2     operandi at least in the roughest of terms.  We tried to comply with

 3     certain standards when collecting facts, gathering facts about crimes

 4     that were committed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We put together a methodology

 5     of work that was quite exhaustive and comprehensive which also entailed

 6     instructions on how such work would be performed.  Of course, when we

 7     talk about methodology the question that always arises is the

 8     implementation stage unless of course you have all the right conditions

 9     in place for implementing that type of methodology, unless you have on

10     the ground, you have all the manpower that you need for performing those

11     tasks and if you're not able to --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You are speaking too fast.  The interpreter is

13     having difficulty keeping up to you.

14             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  [Interpretation] So you can create an ideal

15     method, an ideal methodology, but if you don't have the people on the

16     ground who are able to implement whatever methodology you come up with,

17     then it's very difficult to secure very high standards to make sure you

18     have high standards for gathering documents.  Therefore, wherever we

19     could, wherever we had a chance to implement this methodology we did so

20     in the strictest of terms.

21             On the other hand, you must know one thing.  We worked under very

22     difficult conditions.  The commission was based in SarajevoSarajevo

23     was entirely encircled.  And we used any form of communication open to us

24     at the time to get in touch with people on the ground and in order to

25     instruct them in the following way.  If you can't use the methodology we

Page 2135

 1     selected -- I'm not just talking about professionals and I'm not just

 2     talking about volunteers.  I'm talking about any citizen who happened to

 3     be in possession of any sort of photograph, video clip or anything like

 4     that or rather who had the equipment to record anything should try to

 5     take advantage of that technology or the equipment in their possession in

 6     order to record anything they could that was happening at the time.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Can we go briefly into private session, Your

 9     Honour.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 2136

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

13                           [Videotape played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] MV3:  Crni Vrh and the other

15     places around Visegrad.  They chased us out by using poison.  They drove

16     them to these mountain areas, and in a refugee centre there are about

17     2.000 refugees taking refuge in the mountains, forests, and rocky ground.

18     This is the first group that arrived, and we are expecting the arrival of

19     other groups which are on their way.  What people are saying, the village

20     of Barimo sounds like a pure disaster.  According to preliminary reports

21     from the field there are 27 innocent victims, women, children and elderly

22     people and all those who didn't manage to escape.  They used rubber boats

23     and the Chetniks crossed over to the left side of the Drina River.

24             "MV4:  This is the first time being photographed.

25             "MV6:  Hello, how is it going?  Where is your father?

Page 2137

 1             "MV11:  No, we are -- we went to Crni Vrh.

 2             "MV12:  A pack of cigarettes, cameraman, what do you say?

 3             "MV11:  Well, we started up 10.30.  Now it's noon, so around 1300

 4     or 1400 hours."

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We have one more clip to show from this video, and

 6     that one I would ask to be not broadcast publicly.  So if we could go

 7     into private session.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

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Page 2138

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 2139

 1             MS. FRIEDMAN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, do you see this first still of the video on the

 3     screen in front of you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Have you had a chance to view it since coming to The Hague?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And what is in this video, just briefly?

 8        A.   This is a map of Bosnia and Herzegovina focusing on the Visegrad

 9     area.  As far as I remember, this was some TV coverage from Visegrad.

10        Q.   Did the Research and Documentation Centre provide this to the

11     OTP?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And does it depict Visegrad at the time of the takeover?

14        A.   Yes.  This is, if I remember correctly, as far as this coverage

15     is concerned.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Previous translation continues] ...

17             MR. CEPIC:  I've heard a lot of leading questions up to now.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Be careful about that.

20             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Actually, we can -- could we just play the video

23     at this time.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25                           [Videotape played]

Page 2140

 1             MS. FRIEDMAN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, can you tell me when this video clip was taken?

 3        A.   I can't give you the exact date, but I know for certain this was

 4     in the second half of April 1992.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We tender this as an exhibit, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit P130, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, it is not related to my case, but I just

10     would like to raise that this video contains different two video clips

11     from different -- from two different broadcasting company.  One is

12     Belgrade television and second is Sarajevo television, which is

13     completely different, especially was different in that period of time,

14     so ...

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We can ask the witness about that.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, just a minute.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, we don't wish to hear anything more about

20     this.  Have you then completed?

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, I have no further questions.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Alarid.

23             MR. ALARID:  Briefly, Your Honour.  Thank you.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

25        Q.   Mr. Tokaca, good afternoon.

Page 2141

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   My name is Jason Alarid and I represent Milan Lukic.  I'd like to

 3     talk to you a little bit about your research and your background.

 4             Now, would it be fair to say that you were an activist brought to

 5     activism by the war?

 6        A.   I don't understand.

 7        Q.   Well, it was the -- it was the impetus of the war that changed

 8     your career path and you became an activist?

 9        A.   The war changed my career path radically, if you like, but I was

10     not an activist.  This notion to me implies something altogether

11     different.  I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you use that term.

12        Q.   And I don't mean to imply that you were biased to one side or

13     another.  That's not what I'm coming at.  What I'm more saying is that

14     you -- you found a cause that you felt close to your heart and you went

15     with that.  That's not true?

16        A.   I simply don't quite understand what you're driving at.

17        Q.   Well, you established -- you established this organisation,

18     correct, the commission for gathering of facts on war crimes?

19        A.   No, it wasn't me who established the commission.  It was

20     established by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

21     by decision dated the 28th of April, 1992.

22        Q.   And how much before the 28th of April, 1992, did you -- was the

23     commission founded?

24        A.   No, no, no, no, no.  It was founded on the 28th of April, 1992 by

25     a decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 2142

 1     As of that moment, activities were commenced in establishing its work,

 2     setting up teams.  There were teams that were at work.  There was a

 3     political section comprising three members and the professional section

 4     and I was in charge of that section.  Officially speaking, I was

 5     appointed on the 28th -- or, rather, the 18th of August, 1992.  I was

 6     appointed secretary of the state commission.  As of that moment, my role

 7     was to be technically in charge of all of the business of the state

 8     commission.  That was one of the dimensions.  This was about the

 9     professional section that comprised different professionals, historians,

10     sociologists, and so on and so forth.

11             On the other hand you had a three-member membership of the

12     commission and Stjepan Kljujic was in charge of that.  He was the

13     president or the chairman of the commission, and then there was Mr. Miro

14     Lazovic, who was there on behalf of the parliament and then there was

15     Mr. Jahic, who was a minister in the government of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina.  So roughly speaking this is how the commission was set up

17     and this was by decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina.

19        Q.   Well, then maybe just ask you out of your own mouth how did you

20     gravitate towards the commission?  Were you selected personally or did

21     you apply for it out of your personal beliefs?

22        A.   At that point in time, May, June, July, I volunteered.  It wasn't

23     any sort of professional involvement and it was because I had certain

24     experience in certain fields and had certain knowledge in certain fields.

25     The people back at the Presidency and in the commission decided at the

Page 2143

 1     time that I was able to meet all the requirements for that appointment so

 2     this was not a public tender.  This was something you got by appointment,

 3     and the only body with the power to make those appointments was the

 4     Presidency.

 5        Q.   But in -- but you put your name out there.  You put your career

 6     out there to -- is that fair?  And again, I'm not implying any kind of

 7     bias but I do want to sort of explore how in your heart you volunteered

 8     for this position.  So what made you volunteer?

 9        A.   I was fully dedicated, and this was a conscious decision and with

10     an open mind.  I had no dilemmas at the time, and I still don't.  And

11     this applies to the rest of my life as well as to the last 16 years of my

12     life.  I will continue to investigate any form of crime committed against

13     the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina and then perhaps I could tell you

14     about this too because this is more of a private angle on my part for all

15     of this, my private reason.  My entire family but rather my mother's

16     family and my grandfather's family, my two uncles, their throats were

17     slit back in 1942 during World War II, so in a way I had an intimate

18     pre-war motive, a motive pre-dating the war in a way.  So now you have

19     this similar situation re-occurring as it were, and then I tried to

20     record everything that was going on around me.  I -- I tried to establish

21     some sort of an historical record on what was going on in my country and

22     this is something that you might call justice for all the innocent

23     victims and also punishment for all those who actually committed the war

24     crimes, so these were my private intimate motives that explain why I

25     joined this project.  I would never take it back, and I still believe in

Page 2144

 1     it as I believed in it on day one.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  And I guess from reading some of the

 3     materials that I received from the Prosecution, it appears that your

 4     commission didn't care if it was a Muslim or a Serb or a Croat that

 5     was -- a crime was committed again, you would investigate all crimes.  Is

 6     that true?

 7        A.   Yes, certainly.  Not just the three principal ethnic groups but

 8     all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's what I'm telling you

 9     about.  Of course I can't side who is who in terms of religion,

10     ethnicity, social background, what their political background might be or

11     some such.  I was not politically involved.  I was entirely independent

12     and I worked in keeping with my own conscience, the dictate of my own

13     conscience and in keeping with the rules, keeping perfectly in compliance

14     with international criminal law and with all the rules established by

15     international organisations in my work and I was adamant that this should

16     be the same sort of position taken by all the people surrounding this

17     project, there would be no discrimination of people along ethnic,

18     religious or political lines.  My entire work focused on that and I can

19     even go as far as to say that at certain points in time I was subjected

20     to certain forms of pressure and also certain attempts to get me to adopt

21     that line of reasoning and to work in that way.  I always resolutely

22     refused to be part of that.  It was never my conviction that this should

23     be done and it never will be.

24        Q.   And I was looking at some of the data that we received, and it's

25     my understanding that from some of your own research and documentation

Page 2145

 1     the centre revealed in 2007 that Serbs composed about approximately 25

 2     per cent of the military deaths and 10 per cent of the civilian deaths in

 3     Bosnia.  So there was some evidence of Serb casualties of course that

 4     your centre catalogued.  Is that fair?

 5        A.   Roughly speaking to the extent that I remember, the total, if you

 6     look at the population, 24.000 Serbs who became casualties of war as

 7     civilians -- or as civilians, as soldiers, over 10 per cent of that

 8     figure accounts for civilian casualties so, yes, we were collecting data

 9     on civilian casualties and of course also on military casualties, too,

10     or, rather, soldiers.

11        Q.   And of course the collection of data was probably more difficult

12     during the actual conflict and then you were probably able to rectify

13     some of the numbers after things calmed down enough that you could

14     collect data in a more efficient manner?

15        A.   Yes.  It's always like that in wartime, isn't it, it's difficult

16     to collect data.  I was fully aware of the fact that errors could occur

17     in wartime conditions.  There was some forms of propaganda.  So whatever

18     I collected during the war, I tried to have another look to make sure

19     everything was accurate.  I looked at the losses, human losses in Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina.  We wanted to collect information on each and every

21     citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina who was killed during that period

22     regardless of their affiliation to military units or along ethnic lines.

23     I'm talking about the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.

24        Q.   When -- and is it true that you incorporated some of the data

25     from the 2004 report commissioned by the ICTY that -- that tried to

Page 2146

 1     calculate the casualties and the composition of casualties to as good a

 2     certainty as could be come to at the time?  It's my understanding in the

 3     2004 report that in the Bosnian conflict, military death toll was 58.3

 4     per cent Muslim.  Is that -- is that about right?  12.5 per cent

 5     Croatian, and 29.2 per cent Serbian, with the civilian death toll amongst

 6     the Serbian total being 30.5 per cent, and of course, I think that boils

 7     down to 10 per cent if you look at the total amount; is that correct?

 8        A.   Let me offer a dual answer to this.  Our investigation was

 9     entirely independent and had nothing to do with the Tribunal's

10     investigations.  When we first -- first started preparing, I didn't even

11     know that there were other people investigating.  At a later point I

12     found an article in a demographic journal by Ewa Tabeau, I think, and

13     Mr. --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get the name.

15        A.   -- and they publish the figures that you now refer to.  We did

16     not use the results of the Tribunal's work in our work.  In terms of

17     organisation, in terms of equipment and purely physical terms our

18     investigation was entirely independent of the investigation pursued by

19     the Tribunal but the results are more or less the same.  I do have the

20     information and there are some discrepancies between our results and the

21     results that you now present, but ultimately the results are quite close.

22        Q.   And is -- is -- in being close, is it the difference between

23     102.000 people dead approximately and in 2007 the total was adjusted to

24     97.000 dead?  Is that about right?

25             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Could we maybe see the report that counsel is

Page 2147

 1     referring to.

 2             MR. ALARID:  To be honest, I am referring to notes.  I'm not

 3     referring to the actual report right now.

 4             MS. FRIEDMAN:  It's just a little hard to follow.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Let's see if the witness can answer.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you able to answer?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  You can get more or less

 8     the same results even if you applied to partially or entirely different

 9     methods.  We used ours and they used theirs.  There might be certain

10     correlations but not necessarily.  The difference between what we did on

11     the one hand and what they did is this.  We --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the other microphones please be

13     switched off.  The interpreters can't hear the witness.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS:  Can I continue?

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   Yes, please.

17        A.   Every time we published a figure there was always the identity of

18     a specific victim behind it.  We have the first name, the last name, and

19     a number of other variables that we use for our research.  Our research,

20     our investigations included victims of direct war operations.  So that

21     was the figure that we arrived at, and that was our result.  In addition

22     to that kind of investigation, investigating direct victims of war, now

23     we're working on the second pillar as it were, indirect victims of war,

24     people who starved to death, for example, people who were victims of

25     various accidents, for example, soldiers who ate some poisonous

Page 2148

 1     mushrooms, for example, some soldiers that were buried under an

 2     avalanche, so they weren't killed in an operation but for example --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to kindly

 4     slow down and repeat what he said.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm sorry.  The interpreter is asking you to

 6     slow down again.  You're speaking too fast.

 7             Mr. Alarid, how much more time are you -- I would hope that we

 8     could conclude this witness's testimony by the break.

 9             MR. ALARID:  When is our break, Your Honour?

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  At a quarter to 4.00, because I have a suspicion

11     that Mr. Cepic may not exert himself too much.

12             MR. CEPIC:  Precisely, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13             MR. ALARID:  Okay.  I'll do my best, Your Honour.  I apologise.

14     I'll do my best to speed things up.

15        Q.   But you're not allowed to speed things up because the interpreter

16     can't keep up with you, so I'll just try and stay focused.

17             Now you -- in your attempts to be objective, you even had Bosnian

18     Serbs as experts on your commission.  Is that fair?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   But there was some things that came out.  There was conflicting

21     commission reports.  Did you ever look at the Belgrade commission report

22     of what happened in Visegrad?  Even for the reading value, if not

23     incorporating it to an analysis?

24        A.   We collected an enormous amount of reports, sources.  We're

25     looking at thousands of sources.  I really don't remember specifically

Page 2149

 1     now, but I assume that we included whatever was available to us, be it

 2     from Belgrade, from Zagreb, from somewhere abroad.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the other microphones please be

 4     switched off.  The interpreters can't hear the witness.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  The interpreters again, a

 6     different concern this time, that the microphones are being left on, and

 7     that means that they can't hear.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Go ahead, sir.

10        A.   So, when I talk about human losses, and I understand that's what

11     we're talking about, we included whatever we could, whatever was

12     available to us regardless of the source.  We calculated human losses

13     based on thousands -- rather, hundreds of different sources.

14        Q.   And understanding that the --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. ALARID:

17        Q.   Understanding that the focus in Bosnia of course was of the

18     displacement of the Muslim population, did you find instances of what

19     could be classified as war crimes where Serbians were victims simply on

20     an eye-for-an-eye situation even if it were sporadic?

21        A.   First of all, let me explain this.  We didn't deal with the

22     population movements.  We dealt with murders, with expulsions and

23     disappearances.  When you classify crimes, you have to look at what the

24     most serious crimes are, genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes.

25     Of course, part of that problem is the expulsion of people from their

Page 2150

 1     homes.  You saw the footage that was shown and then on the other hand we

 2     dealt with other forms of violence and war crimes which included, as I

 3     said, crimes against anyone, any ethnic group, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats,

 4     or anyone else alike.  We didn't discriminate along ethnic lines when it

 5     came to victims.  I worked certain cases, by way of an example, Celebici

 6     where there were Serb victims, the camp at Celebici.  There is a

 7     conviction to that effect.  It's part of the case law before this

 8     Tribunal.  I don't think this is the place to repeat this.  You will see

 9     that all the other ethnicities were also part of our work.  Our main

10     principle was not to discriminate along ethnic lines when it came to

11     victims.  It was an ethical matter.  It was a professional matter, and we

12     always stuck to that.  I was subjected to various attacks.  I was

13     subjected to criticism even back in Sarajevo, but I thought that the

14     truth and the whole truth about the suffering of all those victims should

15     be known and that was my top priority.

16        Q.   Well -- and the reason I asked you that is I didn't see a

17     statistic related to war crimes per se that we could apply to a Serb

18     civilian population or something within the same war theatre of Bosnia

19     because of course the whole country was embroiled in this conflict.

20        A.   Well, I'm sorry if you didn't come across that, but I did.

21        Q.   Can you tell us what those data -- what those figures are from

22     your memory?

23        A.   I cannot tell you figures from memory.  I have brought with me an

24     exhaustive report.  I think the Tribunal has that at its disposal.  A

25     report on this.  It's on this DVD here and all the data on all the

Page 2151

 1     citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, including those of Serbian ethnicity are

 2     here.  This contains statistically very precise information by town, by

 3     municipality.  If you're interested in names, for each of those locations

 4     we can find those names.  For example, in the case of Visegrad, I have

 5     submitted this to the Prosecution also.  You can find precisely how many

 6     citizens --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not going to allow you to pursue that.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll move on.

 9        Q.   Now, what was interesting to me, and --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   We attempted to uploaded it but I don't think it's up yet.  Is it

13     up?  I'm not going to actually ask you to refer to things but I want to

14     ask you some questions, is -- the commission for gathering facts on war

15     crimes in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina put out a bulletin.  Was

16     that a monthly bulletin or was that a quarterly bulletin?  What was it?

17     And what I'm referring to personally is the March 1993 number 3 bulletin.

18     I guess the first question is, you put out the bulletin; correct?

19        A.   I was one of the people working on the bulletin.

20        Q.   Because there's a series of essays or articles but I don't see

21     individual authors for each essay, so I'm assuming that it was a group

22     effort to put those articles together.  Is that correct?  Is that a yes?

23        A.   The members of the professional team, individual members, were

24     authors of those texts.  No one signed the texts.  We discussed them

25     beforehand, and we stood by those texts as the editorial board.

Page 2152

 1        Q.   And of course these were -- these were journal articles that you

 2     had done some considerable research on before you published them.  I

 3     mean, I'm assuming that you considered them good journalistic work or

 4     reporting work.  Is that fair?

 5        A.   More or less.

 6        Q.   And the reason I say this is because this is really one of the

 7     first exposures that I've gotten to the war and how it began and it was

 8     very interesting to me to see that there was a concerted beginning of the

 9     war right around April of 1992 that happened in many regions of Bosnia

10     and also in Croatia.  Is that true?

11        A.   The war did not begin in Bosnia at the same time it began in

12     Croatia.  In Croatia it began almost a year before it broke out in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   And it -- but it's my understanding that it happened in similar

15     way.  The JNA moved in, the former JNA moved in, armed a considerable

16     amount of people and then left the conflict and then also did that in

17     places like Visegrad where the JNA came in for some time, disarmed the

18     Muslim population, asked them to come back, and then left to the local

19     Serbian detachments as well as members of the JNA that stayed there.  You

20     shake your head.  Tell me why.

21        A.   That's your interpretation.  My interpretation would be quite the

22     opposite of yours.  I think it would take a long time to explain it to

23     you.

24        Q.   Well, and I guess -- yeah, I don't want to debate it with you,

25     because I actually was -- it was just my impression of things, but I'm

Page 2153

 1     not here to dispute you.  I'm referring to it an article called

 2     "Cooperation between the ex-JNA and the SDS terrorists," and it was in

 3     that journal of March 1993.  Do you agree with the principles in that --

 4     in that article?

 5        A.   I don't remember any longer what that article says, but I know

 6     very well what that cooperation was like.  The research we did and the

 7     documents we found explained with great precision and clarity how the

 8     cooperation between the JNA and the SDS took place, how the JNA

 9     participated in all this and held all the strategic moves in its hands

10     and used very skillfully what they referred to as paramilitary units to

11     achieve its strategic goals.

12             In my deep conviction the JNA, on the basis of everything I've

13     done so far, was a key player in all these events, and in fact the JNA

14     pulled all the strings.  The research we did on human losses and

15     casualties, especially in Visegrad, indicate that murders of civilians

16     took place in April when the JNA was in full control of Visegrad, and

17     then in May -- on the 19th of May the JNA withdrew officially from

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina but all its assets and the command staff and weapons

19     stayed behind, and the crimes continued after the 19th of May and even

20     intensified in June.

21        Q.   That's kind of what I was surmising is that there was a

22     considerable force of non-Bosnian Serb citizens that were sort of left

23     behind and put in different uniforms, maybe with different insignias in

24     the Visegrad theatre.  Is that true?

25        A.   In that period, April, May, and June, the dominant forces were

Page 2154

 1     the forces of the JNA.  When we speak of the JNA, you must understand

 2     what the composition of that army was.  Before Bosnia-Herzegovina was

 3     recognised as an independent state, it was a unified army in which people

 4     were organised.  It was not a disorganised army.  It had a strict chain

 5     of command and a strict control and command system, and it had full

 6     capacity to launch attacks and to kill, which is what it did, and also to

 7     hold under its control all those it wanted held under control, who acted

 8     outside the rules of that army.  You're mentioning certain groups,

 9     so-called groups, but it's my position that there were no groups that

10     were beyond the control of the JNA.  They did not exist.

11        Q.   Well, and -- and that's -- I'm referring to a paragraph that:

12     "In the case of the Vukovar open cooperation between the army and various

13     Chetnik units, Seselj's men, Arkan's men, White Eagles, and other Serbian

14     and Montenegrin and SDS units was neither hidden nor minimised."  So it

15     was early on that White Eagles and these paramilitary units were

16     operating even in Vukovar.  Is that true?

17        A.   Yes.  Those units acted openly and very aggressively both in

18     Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Evidently there was a strategy on the

19     part of the JNA for the conflict in the region, especially in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, to be represented as a conflict between

21     renegade units of the JNA and the legal forces of those two states.  It

22     was a very precisely prepared activity to distract the attention of the

23     international community from the chief culprit, which was the JNA, and

24     all in-depth investigations show that all the units you have just

25     mentioned were under the command of the JNA.  None of those units could

Page 2155

 1     have done anything at all had the generals of the JNA opposed it.

 2        Q.   And going to another sentence that:  "Just a small part of the

 3     army went, i.e., withdrew, mainly soldiers and officers, but most of them

 4     stayed under some other name and with different insignia together with

 5     the whole war technique, weapons, and including armoured units and air

 6     force."

 7             So is that true?

 8        A.   From everything that was to happen, it was evident that only a

 9     small part withdrew, but the staff, the funding system, everything

10     remained in place.  I explained how they used so-called paramilitary

11     formations to continue their activity in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Nothing

12     actually changed.  The hardware, the tanks, the weapons, it all stayed

13     behind.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Will you be concluding now, because we'll have

15     to break.

16             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I literally have five tabs which

17     probably would equal ten questions, but I think we should probably take

18     the break and that's all I have.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll take the break now.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

23             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Just a few more questions, sir.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 2156

 1             MR. ALARID:

 2        Q.   Just a few more questions and we can get you on your way.

 3             I'm still referring to the same article but kind of asking a

 4     little bit separate principle is, would it be fair to say that these

 5     paramilitary organisations such as the White Eagles travelled with the

 6     JNA into different areas that the JNA infiltrated?

 7        A.   One could say that their name travelled.  I'm not sure it was the

 8     same people travelling to the same places, but the name went round the

 9     region.  Who the men were who were in those so-called paramilitary

10     formations, it's very hard to establish.

11        Q.   Well, the reason I say that is there's been some testimony in

12     this trial from the Muslims that were rounded up into the stadium in

13     Visegrad and Colonel Jovanovic told them as a group that, "I control the

14     White Eagles."  And so it appears to me that right then and there the JNA

15     acknowledged that the White Eagles were under their control, and I'm

16     wondering if your commission had any information related to that.

17        A.   We had information.  Some refugees arrived in Sarajevo and

18     testified about those groups, but all that we could conclude from the

19     information we had was that all those groups were more or less under the

20     control of the JNA.  It was our assessment that had they wanted to, they

21     could have held those groups completely under control and prevented them

22     from committing the crimes they committed.

23        Q.   And would it be true that in fact in Visegrad when the JNA left,

24     they left the White Eagles there to wreak havoc on the population?

25        A.   I have already said when replying to your previous questions that

Page 2157

 1     the JNA withdrew only officially, only in formal terms, but in fact it

 2     did not withdraw.  The commanders, the people under their command.  For

 3     example, I remember a high ranking Colonel in Rudno [phoen] near Visegrad

 4     who was killed by some groups holding that area.  The officer corps, the

 5     logistics support, everything stayed behind.  Nothing changed in essence.

 6     Only the name changed.  It was declared to be the army of Republika

 7     Srpska, whereas in fact it was just a branch of the JNA.

 8        Q.   Now, it's my understanding according to the article also that the

 9     JNA collaborated with the local SDS inner circles in each community to

10     facilitate the arming of the Serbian population.  Is that true?

11        A.   You have a number of documents showing how weapons were

12     distributed to the local Serbian population by the JNA.  There are even

13     lists with the types of weapons distributed at certain locations.  This

14     happened even before the beginning of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        Q.   In fact, it began as early as 1991.  Isn't that true?

16        A.   Yes, in part.  It began until late 1991.

17        Q.   And has there -- have you undergone any investigation into these

18     SDS inner circles that led each community as potential architects of the

19     overall destruction of Bosnia?

20        A.   We're still doing that investigation.  It's an ongoing process to

21     explain the context and all the social and other circumstances in which

22     the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was prepared.  This is ongoing research

23     which will continue for many, many years.  Some pieces of the puzzle are

24     still missing.  This Court is also working on this task.  It's a

25     long-term task.

Page 2158

 1        Q.   Have you explored the war profiteers, the people that had very

 2     little before the war, Serbian ethnic origin, and now they have a lot,

 3     the company owners, hotel owners, property owners?

 4        A.   We didn't focus on that problem because we were focusing on war

 5     crimes.  The issue of war profiteers is something that the legal

 6     authorities in all the areas in the region, including Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina, should deal with.

 8        Q.   Now, further on in the bulletin there's an article about the

 9     victims of rape and how rape was an organised tool of the JNA to

10     subjugate the females of the population.  Is that true?

11        A.   We produced a number of reports concerning rape.  There's a book

12     we worked on in 1999.  In fact, we organised a large international

13     conference in Sarajevo dedicated to the victimisation of women and we're

14     still dealing with that problem.  Not just rape but also other forms of

15     sexual violence and other kinds of violence against women.  Yes, we have

16     dealt with that problem and will continue to do so.

17        Q.   Well, and just looking at the article it appears that many, many

18     municipalities had these sort of systematic rape scenario going on in

19     them.  Is that true?

20        A.   That was something that happened in all parts of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially the area we refer to as Podrinje.  It's

22     the area from Foca down the River Drina to Bijeljina, in Brcko, in Doboj,

23     in Sarajevo.  All other Bosnia-Herzegovina in various locations one can

24     see that these things happened.  We paid special attention to that, and,

25     yes, one can conclude it was done systematically.

Page 2159

 1        Q.   And systematically from the -- the Serbia and Montenegrin forces

 2     that had come into Bosnia left by the JNA.  Is that true?

 3        A.   It's only partly so.  Unfortunately, citizens of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina also participated in these rapes.  If you're asking

 5     about Visegrad, it did happen there, too, and it was done both by

 6     outsiders and, unfortunately, by local people as well, people from

 7     Visegrad.

 8        Q.   And just referring to the article, it states that:  "Local

 9     Serbians did also take part although, although there are evidence that

10     some Bosnian Serbs are forced into it, backed by the Serbian Montenegrin

11     army."  Is that true?

12        A.   Yes.  I can give you a number of examples where there were even

13     murders of Bosnian Serbs by the JNA because there were people forced to

14     commit war crimes under very odd circumstances.  I can give you an

15     example from a project we're working on right now.  We're trying to

16     investigate that side of the war where citizens of one ethnic group

17     helped those of another.  For example, citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina of

18     Serb ethnicity who assisted Bosniaks, Croats who helped the Serbs, and so

19     on, Bosniaks who helped one or the other side.  So we have a number of

20     examples that show that war is not just black and white.  There are

21     examples of people who were courageous and who helped others.  We found

22     several such examples in Visegrad.  Visegrad is not an isolated place.

23     People did help each other, but unfortunately the crimes prevailed.

24        Q.   And were there instances where one person might be forced to hurt

25     one person but attempt to help another because they were torn but

Page 2160

 1     otherwise stuck in the war situation?

 2        A.   I think there's a very interesting case.  I think the man's last

 3     name is Pecikoza or something like that.  We've just been investigating

 4     that case.  I think he was some sort of SDS official at the time, if I

 5     recollect well, and he was playing a double role.  In one role he was

 6     helping others, and in the other role he was doing evil things.  It's a

 7     very confused story.  He was evidently exposed to various kinds of

 8     pressure.  We've been trying to explore the circumstances under which he

 9     was killed for helping citizens of other ethnic groups.

10        Q.   Because I've seen -- there's been testimony here where people saw

11     him as a saviour of some people but then yet some other people had a

12     totally different opinion of him.  And it's Stanko Pecikoza, if I recall?

13        A.   Yes, you're right.  You have contradictory information about one

14     and the same person.  That's quite possible, yes, because the

15     circumstances were such that he played different roles, and what

16     prevailed at any point in time, it's hard to say.  The man is not alive,

17     unfortunately.  If he was, he might be able to tell us.

18        Q.   Now, of course, you know, during this time there were other

19     attacks besides rape.  The religion was attacked and the mosques were

20     destroyed.  So there was also an attack on the Muslim population's entire

21     faith, if you will.  Is that true?

22        A.   Well, you see, religious buildings were destroyed.  Those are

23     facts.  Mosques in Visegrad were destroyed on someone's orders.  The

24     victims could see this as an attack on their religious affiliation.  Of

25     course one can view it like that, although I think personally that all

Page 2161

 1     this was used in order to escalate the level of violence and to get

 2     things to explode at a certain point in time.  Religious and ethnic

 3     feelings were manipulated during the war.

 4        Q.   So the architects of the whole process played on very personal

 5     and -- and religious things about the general population in order to

 6     force them to leave the area.  Is that fair?

 7        A.   Yes, I share that standpoint.

 8        Q.   But otherwise they really just wanted the land and to take it

 9     away and make sure these people moved away and didn't come back.  Isn't

10     that fair?

11        A.   Yes, more or less.  The regime that instigated the conflict was a

12     regime of fighting for power, a brutal power, using all possible methods

13     to expand their power.  The regime, and you know what regime that was.

14     The man who was here unfortunately died before we could see the end of

15     the trial, but he played on people's feelings in a strategic way.  He

16     wanted to portray this as an ethnic or religious war, and this

17     predominated especially in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was a multi-ethnic

18     and multi-faith community where -- where causing this kind of fire could

19     lead to very negative consequences.

20        Q.   Because the rank-and-file soldiers were generally simpler people.

21     They didn't have a lot of knowledge of these grander schemes but really

22     could only be manipulated on very simple levels of religion and

23     nationalism.  Would that be fair?

24        A.   Yes, more or less that's how it was.  The courts judge according

25     to the principle of individual responsibility, and that's something one

Page 2162

 1     has to respect.  Of course everyone's individual responsibility has to be

 2     proved and an appropriate judgement handed down, but no individual acts

 3     outside the environment he lives in.  The government, the authorities

 4     from whom he receives orders, this is a huge moral and ethnic question

 5     both in theory and in practice and has been for over 60 years after World

 6     War II.  Is an individual just someone who implements the orders of

 7     others or is he a murderer?  I think that people act in a certain social

 8     environment, and sometimes they can become the extended arm of the force

 9     of the government or the state even if they don't really wish to do the

10     things they are doing.  They do things they would never do in other

11     circumstances.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Just a couple more questions, actually.  One of the

13     sections is you have a section on witnesses where testimonials from

14     victims of around Bosnia are there, and I notice in this particular

15     journal there are two statements from Visegrad, one of -- and I believe

16     both have already testified here in the Tribunal, from reading the

17     statements in the journal.  How did you collect these, and are you still

18     in possession of these actual statements?

19        A.   Well, at the beginning of my testimony I explained that we had a

20     very precise methodology of work with witnesses.  Of course if

21     circumstances allowed, the professional part of the team tried to contact

22     directly people who were either victims themselves or who were

23     eyewitnesses and could testify to certain events.  Statements concerning

24     rapes were always taken in such a way as to protect the identity of the

25     victim while showing in public that this did happen, because we were

Page 2163

 1     trying to encourage the victims to speak out.

 2             I assume that these -- no, actually, I'm absolutely sure that

 3     those statements are still in our archives, and they are at the disposal

 4     of prosecutors, whether those of the ICTY or of the domestic courts.

 5        Q.   And do you catalogue them by region such as Visegrad or Gorazde

 6     or other areas?

 7        A.   The system of processing information is such that in professional

 8     terms a relational database is established with information on the

 9     victim, the location, the kind of event that happened, the kind of

10     incident.  So searching through certain locations, if that's your -- the

11     terms of your search, you can reconstruct what happened in a certain

12     area.  You can reconstruct the geographical distribution of crimes in

13     various towns, including Visegrad, of course.

14        Q.   Now, were these statements taken by the MUP or were these taken

15     by you separately?  Were they police statements that you then archived,

16     the police statement, or is there a police statement and also one to your

17     association?

18        A.   The statements we took directly is something we used, and we also

19     used statements taken by other institutions.  The decision to establish

20     the commission when it was made, all government bodies were told to

21     cooperate with it, so that some material was delivered to us but some, we

22     collected ourselves.  We were independent, and even in the case of police

23     reports and statements taken by the police we wanted to check those

24     because the methods used by the police were quite different from our own.

25     So we used this only as input.  We didn't take it for granted anything

Page 2164

 1     that the police sent us.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. ALARID:  No further questions, Your Honour, and I would like

 4     to introduce into evidence 1D10-2707, which is the March 1993 bulletin of

 5     the commission for gathering facts on war crimes for the Republic of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D53, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Friedman, any re-examination?

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  No redirect, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your evidence.  We thank

12     you for giving it, and you may now leave.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The next witness, Mr. Groome.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next witness is not a protected

17     witness so I'll say his name.  It's Islam Kustura.  Your Honour, over the

18     break it was brought to my attention that we have fallen short of our

19     disclosure obligations with respect to this witness.  I have informed

20     Mr. Cepic and Mr. Alarid over the break as soon as I learned the

21     information and I want to make the Chamber aware of how we have fallen

22     short.

23             While we have provided all the statements that will we were aware

24     of, including the ICTY statements, in a recent computer search of all of

25     our documents in our document collection, some other documents were

Page 2165

 1     revealed and unfortunately we did not review them in the time that we

 2     should have and they are just being discovered today.  So I want to bring

 3     them to the Court's attention.  I think they are small, very short

 4     documents, and hopefully will not be too disruptive to the trial, but the

 5     first document is a one and a half page addendum to a statement that

 6     this -- that this witness gave in 2003 to Bosnian authorities.  We have

 7     provided both the original and the English translation of that document.

 8             The next document is a document that we view is Rule 68.  It's

 9     three and a half page witness statement of another witness that alleges

10     that no mistreatment occurred in Uzamnica.  We provided the original

11     document and we hope to have a translation by the end of the day.

12             The third document is a one and a half page witness statement of

13     another witness stating that this particular witness was involved in the

14     making of chemical weapons.  It's obviously Rule 68 material and that has

15     been disclosed today in the original language.  We are hoping to secure a

16     translation of that have by the end of the day.

17             The fourth document is six lines listing this particular witness

18     as an accused prisoner on -- it appears on the letterhead of Republika

19     Srpska, Visegrad, I believe the Ministry of Interior.

20             And the last document, Your Honour, is a one-page document.  I

21     don't believe it falls either under Rule 66 or Rule 68 but it is a

22     statement that this witness gave to RS authorities with respect to other

23     people regarding their activities in preparing explosive devices.  So it

24     has nothing to do with his testimony but it would be our practice or my

25     practice to disclose that.

Page 2166

 1             So I apologise to Defence counsel and to the Court for -- for

 2     this omission.  It's my hope that -- it's a total of seven pages, that if

 3     we are able to produce the translations to Defence counsel this evening

 4     that hopefully they feel that they -- tomorrow morning they'd be able to

 5     conclude their cross-examination.  If not, if the Chamber believes

 6     fairness requires us to recall this witness for cross-examination at a

 7     later stage, we would of course endeavour to do that.

 8             Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, as much as the Chamber admires the

12     frankness with which you confess these omissions, we have to say that

13     they're happening all too frequently, and we must ask you to take care to

14     see that disclosures are made in a timely manner as required by the

15     Rules.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I will review the procedures and make

17     corrections, and again I do apologise to the Chamber.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Now, I want to deal, before the witness comes

19     in, with the matter raised by Mr. Cepic, and Ms. Marcus is involved in

20     that.

21             Ms. Marcus, have you been brought up-to-date?  What can you tell

22     us about this second updated report which is said to have discrepancies?

23             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  From the first.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you very much.  Your Honours, we filed on the

Page 2167

 1     9th of September a motion to substitute Dr. Tabeau's updated report for

 2     her old report.  This was a few days after we received the updated report

 3     from Dr. Tabeau.

 4             In that motion we explained that none of Dr. Tabeau's overall

 5     conclusions have changed but that some numerical and statistical

 6     calculations had been updated.  Your Honours, the nature of Dr. Tabeau's

 7     work is that it is based upon databases and sources which are constantly

 8     being updated and populated.  For example, more bodies have been exhumed

 9     and identified today than one year ago and so on.

10             Annex a to that September 9th motion contains a list outlining

11     each and every change in the expert report for ease of reference and to

12     facilitate the comparison exercise which the Defence and the Chamber may

13     wish to undertake.  Annex B was the updated expert report.  Therefore the

14     issue of the updated expert report is a matter which we were seeking to

15     deal with in written pleadings.

16             My understanding is that the Defence team for Milan Lukic filed a

17     response, the deadline is today, but that the Defence team for Sredoje

18     Lukic did not file a response.

19             On this matter, Your Honours, in relation to Milan Lukic's

20     assertion in -- in their response that the evidence of Dr. Tabeau is

21     irrelevant and untimely, as the Trial Chamber has already determined that

22     matter on the 23rd of July, 2008, that she qualifies as an expert and

23     that her evidence is relevant and probative, I submit that this -- this

24     submission by the Defence of Milan Lukic is untimely.  And to my

25     knowledge, the Defence did not file -- neither Defence team filed a

Page 2168

 1     motion for certification to appeal the decision of the 23rd of July and

 2     therefore I submit that any questions the Defence may have in relation to

 3     this can properly be put to Dr. Tabeau during cross-examination.

 4             Lastly, Your Honours, with respect to the charts which we have

 5     discussed numerous times, as I said in my submissions yesterday, it would

 6     take an inordinate amount of time for the Prosecution to ask Dr. Tabeau

 7     victim by victim to look into her databases, use her analytical expertise

 8     and tell us what her databases reflect in terms of these individuals'

 9     status as missing persons.

10             Now, Dr. Tabeau's expert report contains an annex which is an

11     excerpt of the ICRC missing persons database so that excerpt from the

12     ICRC database is contained in Dr. Tabeau's report but the charts were

13     meant to facilitate the presentation of that evidence to the Chamber and

14     in the interests of efficiency and time saving.  Therefore, Dr. Tabeau

15     has access to these resources.  She was able to provide those answers in

16     the chart form which I submit was merely to facilitate the process.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How big is Annex A that sets out the

19     discrepancies?

20             MS. MARCUS:  Just a moment, Your Honour.  I will check exactly.

21     Three pages and three lines.  That's three sides of a page and plus an

22     additional three lines.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

25             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, but on Monday morning, and my

Page 2169

 1     learned friend did confirm during the examination yesterday, we received

 2     new exhibit, completely now exhibits, and that is the main problem.  We

 3     received the list which OTP expert filed, as I understood, during the

 4     weekend and during previous period with the new list which are completely

 5     different than the previous annexes with -- related to missing persons.

 6     And I --

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The annex that sets out the discrepancies is

 8     just three pages, though, three and a half pages.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I have to check all those lists.  I

10     received yesterday more than couple hundred names on two list, which are

11     completely different than the previous lists.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I submit there appears to be some

13     confusion.  The charts, again, which I'm calling charts so that we can

14     differentiate it maybe from lists, one chart is the names of the victims

15     as named in the indictment.  The other chart is additional names.  These

16     charts were prepared, as I said, by Dr. Tabeau over the weekend in

17     anticipation of her testimony as a demonstrative exhibit to facilitate

18     asking her what her databases reflect in terms of the -- the reports of

19     those people going missing.

20             Now, we can use time in court and compare each name to the list,

21     but that is exactly why I tried to find a method, and Dr. Tabeau came up

22     with a method herself of presenting the results of that evidence and that

23     was indeed done over the weekend.

24             Your Honours, just -- we are perfectly happy -- as Mr. Groome

25     said yesterday, we are perfectly happy, if need be, to continue with

Page 2170

 1     Dr. Tabeau now and if ever she needs to be called back for any reason,

 2     she is available at the convenience of the Chamber at any time.

 3             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, with your leave.  Just to add something.  This

 6     is one of the main discrepancies.  The base for the previous report was

 7     the Annex A which was the report from the Red Cross organisation about

 8     the missing persons.  Now we had a list from indictment, and that caused

 9     many, many discrepancies between all the other discrepancies.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we have to stop this now --

11             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- and I'll give a ruling.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic, the Chamber is not with you on this

15     one.  We don't see that you will suffer any -- any real prejudice.  We

16     expect you to cross-examine tomorrow, and should it be necessary to

17     recall Dr. Tabeau, then as the Prosecution has indicated, she is

18     available.

19             Let the witness be brought in.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21                           WITNESS:  ISLAM KUSTURA

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 2171

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.  And you may begin, Ms. Marcus.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you hear me clearly?

 5        A.   Yes.  I can't hear.

 6        Q.   Perhaps the court usher could help the witness in increasing the

 7     volume of the headphones.

 8             Mr. Witness, could you please state your full name.

 9        A.   Yes, go ahead.  Kustura, Islam.

10        Q.   What is your date of birth?

11        A.   1930.

12        Q.   Can you give us the precise date of your birth, please, the date

13     and the month?

14        A.   The 15th of March.

15        Q.   In which municipality were you born?

16        A.   In Visegrad.

17        Q.   What is your ethnicity?

18        A.   Muslim.

19        Q.   Before the war what work did you do?

20        A.   I was a farmer.

21        Q.   Are you married?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you have any children?

24        A.   I had seven, but two of my sons were killed.

25        Q.   Do you have any grandchildren?

Page 2172

 1        A.   Yes, and grandchildren.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kustura, how is your vision?  Do you see well?

 3        A.   No, not really.

 4        Q.   Do you know what the diagnosis is, what is the reason for the

 5     poor vision?

 6        A.   I have a cataract.  That's what they say.

 7        Q.   Is that affecting one eye or both eyes?

 8        A.   Both.

 9        Q.   Since when have you had these problems with your eyes?

10        A.   Since last autumn.

11        Q.   Mr. Kustura, do you recall where you were at the end of May of

12     1992?

13        A.   1992, in Visegrad, in the camp.

14        Q.   Before you were in the camp, months before that, do you recall

15     where you were in May?

16        A.   I was at home.  I was making sure everything was all right back

17     home.  I was at home, and I was hiding in the woods.

18        Q.   What were you doing while you were hiding in the woods?

19        A.   We were running from the Chetniks.

20        Q.   How many men and women were with you in your hiding place in the

21     woods?

22        A.   Seven or eight women and seven or eight men.

23        Q.   How did you manage to protect yourselves?

24        A.   We made tents.  We had tarpaulin that we used to make tents, so

25     we hid there.

Page 2173

 1        Q.   Were any of your group armed?

 2        A.   Yes.  My son and a man named Ahmed.  They were both killed.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us, please, the name of your son.

 4        A.   Ibrahim Kustura.

 5        Q.   And you mentioned a man named Ahmed.  Can you tell us his family

 6     name, his surname?

 7        A.   Mutapcic, Ahmed.  He was a neighbour of ours.

 8        Q.   Did there come a time when you left the woods and went back to

 9     your house?

10        A.   We spent the whole summer hiding in the woods until autumn.  I

11     think the 3rd of October, or 3rd of November.  We were hiding in the

12     woods.  And then they caught us in the house.

13        Q.   Yes.  I'd like to talk about that, when they caught you in the

14     house, as you say.  Who was it who caught you in the house?

15        A.   Vukasinovic, Nedjo Vukasinovic.  And there was also Milko

16     Bugarin.  That's what they called him.  He was a teacher.  And there was

17     another man who came by.  He was walking down a road, and then I asked

18     Nedjo and then he said that is a man from Bosanska Jagodina, yeah, him,

19     too, but I can't remember the name.

20        Q.   Mr. Kustura, I'm going to interrupt you.  We're going to come

21     back to what you were just talking about, but I'd like to continue

22     with -- with what happened before the incident you are now describing.

23     There was an incident involving your son.  He'd like to discuss that

24     incident first.  Can you tell us what happened to your son?

25        A.   My son came that morning, early that morning.  My mother was at

Page 2174

 1     home, and she was preparing some food.  They came to get their meals, and

 2     they were killed right there.

 3        Q.   Can you describe the incident during which your son was killed?

 4        A.   Serb soldiers arrived in the village.  They took us prisoners in

 5     the village right next to my house and marched us to a creek.  They told

 6     the women to go to Dobrun and left the men there.  So we were sitting

 7     there when a Serb soldier stood up and told Ahmed, "You follow me.  I

 8     want to interrogate you."  So Ahmed left, and then another man stood up

 9     and told my Ibrahim, "You, too, get up.  I will interrogate you."  And

10     they took them as far as the creek and they were killed there.  We heard

11     rifle shots.

12        Q.   Mr. Kustura --

13        A.   And later --

14        Q.   Let's just take it step-by-step.  Do you know who any of these

15     Serb soldiers you're referring to?  Do you know any of their names?

16        A.   I do.  Dragan Savic, who is the man who took my Ibro away.  I

17     don't know the others.  It was all mixed up.

18        Q.   How do you know that Dragan Savic was the one who took your Ibro

19     away?

20        A.   I know, because I had been in the camp at Visegrad, and then at

21     one point a soldier came and said, "Kustura, Dragan Savic wants to see

22     you."  So I went there, and he beat me and he said, "Tell us who killed

23     your son.  Tell us who killed your son."  I wasn't able to admit -- I

24     didn't admit this to anyone, but I do know that later that evening when

25     we left, when the guard took me along, he said, "Dragan Savic, fuck him,

Page 2175

 1     came here to look for something," or rather vaguer.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kustura, did you see your son actually being killed?

 3        A.   No.  It was over near the creek.  How could I possibly see?

 4        Q.   Did you see his body after he was killed?

 5        A.   Yes, we did, later when Salko, my neighbour and I, came running,

 6     we saw the soldiers and both the bodies were in the creek, and you could

 7     see body of Ibrahim.  It wasn't entirely submerged.  The head was still

 8     above the surface.  And then after eight or ten days, and we hadn't been

 9     allowed to bury the bodies, so before daybreak one day we went there.  We

10     got the bodies, and we gave the bodies a burial.

11        Q.   Do you recall the date on which your son was killed?

12        A.   I don't know.  I don't know exactly.

13        Q.   Earlier you mentioned that you were captured on the 3rd of

14     October or the 3rd of November.  You said you weren't sure of the date.

15     Was your son killed before that or after that?

16        A.   The 3rd.  Before.  Before.

17        Q.   Now, I'd like to take you back to what you started to tell us

18     about before I interrupted you to speak about your son.  You told us that

19     you were caught in your house, and you said you think it was the 3rd of

20     October or the 3rd of November, and you mentioned some names of some

21     individuals who came to that house.  I'd like to return to that.

22             Could you tell us what those people who came to your house --

23     what they said to you?

24        A.   Dragan Pejovic was there.  He was the one guarding my son.

25     Dragan Pejovic, a neighbour of mine from the area.  And they kept saying,

Page 2176

 1     "Don't be afraid.  Don't be afraid."  But then they got as far as the

 2     creek, and what happened there was something entirely different.

 3        Q.   Now, let's go back to the 3rd of October or the 3rd of November,

 4     as you said earlier.

 5        A.   The 3rd of October, I think that was.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what happened on that day?

 7        A.   What happened.  They killed them.  We fled to the woods, and we

 8     were hiding in the woods with a tarp and the tents.  There were women

 9     there and men too.

10        Q.   Mr. Kustura, a little bit earlier you mentioned a name.  The name

11     you mentioned was Vukasinovic, Nedjo Vukasinovic.

12        A.   Nedjo Vukasinovic used to be a good friend of mine before the

13     war, and maybe he was the one who helped save us.

14        Q.   You told us that he, among others, caught you in the house.

15        A.   Caught us, yes.  Yes, that's right.  It was him.  He caught us.

16     He said, "Don't be afraid.  Don't be afraid.  We won't harm you."  And

17     then Nedjo gave me a pack of cigarettes.  I lit up.  And Salko got some

18     cigarettes too.  And then we left for Visegrad.  He drove us in a car to

19     Visegrad, and then they went to the command to report, for Nedjo to

20     report.

21        Q.   When you say "command," can you tell us where precisely they took

22     you?

23        A.   This was the school in Visegrad.

24        Q.   Can you tell us the name of the school?

25        A.   Hasan Veletovac.  I think that's what it was.

Page 2177

 1        Q.   And where were you taken from the school?

 2        A.   We didn't even go inside the school.  We stayed by the car.  The

 3     police arrived and said, "Get back in the car.  You're going back home

 4     this evening."  And they drove us straight to Uzamnica, to the camp

 5     there.  We found some children there in the camp.  We thought at first

 6     they were Serbian children, but in fact they were Muslim children.  There

 7     was a woman who had been taken prisoner with two children.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kustura, you mentioned before you got to Uzamnica that you

 9     encountered some police who told you to get into the car.  Do you know

10     any of these police officers by name?

11        A.   No, I don't know them.

12        Q.   How do you know that they were police?

13        A.   By their uniforms.

14        Q.   Can you tell us the colour of the uniforms?

15        A.   Blue.

16        Q.   Now, you mentioned Uzamnica.  Can you tell us what Uzamnica was?

17     What kind of a location was this?

18        A.   It was a barracks, and there were military depots there, 27

19     hangars with ammunition, but all that was taken off to Serbia.

20        Q.   How many barracks were there at Uzamnica?

21        A.   Only one.

22        Q.   Where were your wife and mother taken?

23        A.   That evening when it got dark they separated us off.  The men

24     went to one hangar and the women to another.  There were some other men

25     there in the hangar, but we didn't see them.  They just shoved me inside,

Page 2178

 1     and afterwards I got to know the men inside.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kustura, were you in regular contact with your wife and

 3     mother?

 4        A.   No.  No.  I didn't see them for eight or ten days at a time.

 5        Q.   Were you free to move about?

 6        A.   No, God forbid.

 7        Q.   Why not?  What was it which prevented you from moving about?

 8        A.   About?  The Chetniks wouldn't let us.  The door was always

 9     closed.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, could we go, please, into private

11     session for the next few questions.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2179

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19             MS. MARCUS:

20        Q.   Mr. Kustura, can you describe the conditions in Uzamnica?

21        A.   You know what it was like?  We lay down on the concrete floor.

22     We got up from the concrete floor.  If we had any clothes with us, we put

23     them on.  If we didn't, we didn't.  It was all just concrete.

24        Q.   What was the food like?

25        A.   It was terrible.  They would bring us just a little bowl of soup

Page 2180

 1     for two of us to share.

 2        Q.   What were the bathroom facilities like?

 3        A.   We didn't have any at all.  There were two black buckets.  We

 4     used one to pass water and the other one to bring water for us to wash

 5     in.

 6        Q.   Was there heat in the winter?

 7        A.   God forbid.  Throughout the winter someone would bring some

 8     paper, and then the next day the soldier would come and swear at him

 9     right away.

10        Q.   Was the room you were staying in, the hangar, was it closed or

11     open to the air?

12        A.   It was closed.  There was an iron door.

13        Q.   Who were the guards at Uzamnica?  Did you know any of them?

14        A.   There was Mico Spasojevic.  He was the guard.  But there were

15     others, lots of others.  I used to know their names, but I've forgotten

16     now.

17        Q.   Were there always the same guards?

18        A.   Yes, always the same ones except that two were sent off to the

19     front line.  What was his name?  He beat me up once.

20        Q.   Do you recall how many guards --

21        A.   I think it was Ilija Sestric.

22        Q.   Do you recall how many guards you saw?

23        A.   There were seven or eight sometimes and just two or three at

24     other times.

25        Q.   Who was the commander of the guards?

Page 2181

 1        A.   Mico Spasojevic.

 2        Q.   Do you know if he was the commander of all of Uzamnica?

 3        A.   No.  No, just of the guards.  Just the guards.

 4        Q.   Did you ever suffer any direct mistreatment at the hands of the

 5     guards?

 6        A.   Mico Spasojevic hit us on two occasions.  He did.  The others

 7     didn't.

 8        Q.   And how did he beat you on those occasions?

 9        A.   You know how?  He made himself a kind of whip, and then he tied a

10     piece of iron to the end, a piece of lead and he beat us with that.

11        Q.   Did you ever suffer any mistreatment at the hands of others apart

12     from the guards?

13        A.   Only Milan Lukic and Sredoje, and they would bring company.

14        Q.   Please describe to us the first time you saw Milan Lukic.

15        A.   I saw him several days after my arrival.  He came right away.

16        Q.   How do you know that this was Milan Lukic?

17        A.   They told me.  I didn't know him, but they told me, the others.

18        Q.   Did you know Milan Lukic from before?

19        A.   I didn't know him, but I did know Sredoje.

20        Q.   How did you know Sredoje from before?

21        A.   He was in the police.

22        Q.   The first time you saw Milan Lukic in Uzamnica, what did he do?

23        A.   You know what he did?  All the worst.  He hit us, beat us.  He

24     did all sorts of things.

25        Q.   With what did he beat you?

Page 2182

 1        A.   First he would run at us like the priest's horse and kick us.  He

 2     kicked us all, and then people fell over, and then afterwards he would

 3     use whatever he wanted, a rifle, his fists, his -- he would kick us.  He

 4     used everything.

 5        Q.   Did you hear him say anything while he was beating you?

 6        A.   He didn't say why he was beating us.  He would just say, "Hit the

 7     balija."

 8        Q.   Was anyone else present during this first time you were beaten?

 9        A.   He beat everyone, all of us in turn, and he didn't stop until

10     he'd beaten up everybody.

11        Q.   Was there anybody with Milan Lukic during this incident?

12        A.   Sredoje was with him always.

13        Q.   Did Sredoje --

14        A.   Sometimes there would be three or four carloads coming to

15     Uzamnica and they would beat us as well.

16        Q.   With regards to Sredoje, did Sredoje do anything to you?

17        A.   Yes, together with Milan, everything.

18        Q.   As a result of that beating did you suffer any injuries?

19        A.   Of course I did.  When I arrived in Sarajevo, I was all black and

20     blue.  My arms were broken.  My chest, my back were all black.  When I

21     got to Sarajevo an ambulance arrived, and they said I should be X-rayed,

22     and when they X-rayed me I had things on my ribs, on my back, everywhere

23     like bulges.  And then there was a man called Prepajac [phoen].  He took

24     the X-rays.  And there was a lady doctor and I said, "what's this on my

25     back," and she said, "Grandfather, you were beaten up a long time ago.  I

Page 2183

 1     don't know what happened to you," and I said -- or, rather, she thought I

 2     had fallen down and hurt myself and I said, "no, it's the Chetniks who

 3     beat me up," and then Ahmet arrived and I --

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You asked him what Sredoje did, but he didn't

 6     really tell you.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  I'm going back to that, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Kustura, I asked you before, as His Honour has said, what did

11     Sredoje do, and you said, "Yes, together with Milan, everything."

12        A.   He beat me just as Milan did.

13        Q.   Can you describe specifically what Sredoje did to you?

14        A.   Well, he hit me just like Milan did.

15        Q.   What did he use to hit you?

16        A.   First he kicked me, and then later with a rifle, and then they

17     would bring stakes, stakes and hit us with those.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Made of what?  What were the stakes made of?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wood.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How big were they?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A metre and a half or two.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Marcus.

23             MS. MARCUS:

24        Q.   Mr. Kustura, after the first beating what condition were you in

25     at that time?  Rather than describing later in Sarajevo, at that time,

Page 2184

 1     after the first beating that you described, what was your physical

 2     condition?

 3        A.   Terrible.  I was all broken, all beaten up.  I was in a terrible

 4     state.

 5        Q.   Were you able to move around after that first beating?

 6        A.   No, I wasn't, no.  And after the second one I had to lie down for

 7     18 days.

 8        Q.   Tell it us about the second one.  What are you referring to the

 9     second time?

10        A.   You know what?  They broke me.  They smashed me.  I couldn't

11     move.  I laid down on that concrete for 18 days.

12        Q.   Who was it who caused you the injuries which resulted in you

13     being immobile for 18 days?

14        A.   Milan.

15        Q.   Can you describe to us the incident?

16        A.   Of course I can describe it.  They beat you for as long as they

17     hear that you're breathing.

18        Q.   When you say "they," could you tell us specifically who it was

19     who beat you?

20        A.   I beg your pardon?

21        Q.   You just said, "They beat you for as long as they hear that

22     you're breathing."  Could you tell us who "they" is?  Who did this?

23        A.   Milan and Sredoje, and sometimes they would bring companions.

24        Q.   How often would you say you saw Milan Lukic in Uzamnica?

25        A.   I saw him all the time until he went off to get a shop at

Page 2185

 1     Kalemegdan, and when he came back from Belgrade he said, "Will you give

 2     it to me," and this man said, "I will, Milan, just don't beat me any

 3     more."  And Milan went to Kalemegdan.  That Serb didn't give him the

 4     shop, and Milan took a pistol and killed the Serb and he lay there in

 5     Belgrade five or six months [Realtime transcript omitted "five or six

 6     months"], maybe, and we were in Dobrun and his sister welcomed Milan

 7     Lukic from Belgrade from prison.  That's how it was and we got all

 8     excited what would happen now.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Just want to intervene in transcript.  I think we

11     haven't got translated how long Milan remained in custody in Belgrade,

12     and I think that the witness answered on that.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know it.  Might have been

14     four or five months that he stayed there in Belgrade.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Perhaps this is a matter for cross-examination.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, it would be.

17             MR. IVETIC:  It's a matter of the transcript, Your Honour.

18             MR. CEPIC:  As my learned friend added, it is a matter of

19     transcript because this witness mentioned it in his examination but

20     interpreters couldn't catch that part, so thank you very much.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Can I continue, Your Honours?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me be clear, Mr. Cepic.  What do you say the

23     transcript is missing something?

24             MR. CEPIC:  How long a witness said that Milan Lukic remained in

25     Belgrade prison for five months.

Page 2186

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2             MR. CEPIC:  We can listen to tape.  And my intervention was this

 3     is not the part in transcript.  It's not recorded in transcript.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's not in the transcript.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't talk about that at all.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  We can check, listening by the tape.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  May I ask the interpreters whether the

 9     witness --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, the interpreters find it very

11     difficult to understand the witness, and there are some parts which the

12     interpreter did not hear properly or understand.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll proceed.  If you wish to make an issue of

14     it in cross-examination you can.

15             MR. CEPIC:  Okay, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just to put out any blame on

18     me, you know, and any doubt, because I'm so confident that I heard that.

19     Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I'm not questioning your integrity at all.

21             MS. MARCUS:

22        Q.   Mr. Kustura, how often did Milan Lukic mistreat you?

23        A.   Well, if it wasn't every day it was every other day, and he would

24     bring two or three cars with people and Sredoje, and they would beat

25     people.

Page 2187

 1        Q.   How often would you say Sredoje would beat you?

 2        A.   Well, the same as Milan.  The same.

 3        Q.   Did you ever see Milan Lukic come alone to Uzamnica?

 4        A.   No, he never came alone.

 5        Q.   Do you recall what Milan Lukic was wearing usually when he came

 6     to Uzamnica?

 7        A.   A military uniform.  That's what he wore.

 8        Q.   Do you recall what Sredoje Lukic was wearing when he came to

 9     Uzamnica?

10        A.   Both of them, both of them.

11        Q.   Did you ever see either of them dressed any differently?

12        A.   No, I never did.  Only military uniforms.

13        Q.   Was Milan Lukic usually carrying anything when he came to

14     Uzamnica?

15        A.   What?

16        Q.   Was Milan Lukic carrying anything in his hands when he came to

17     Uzamnica?

18        A.   Once he brought a stake.  I'm mentioning the stake again.  And he

19     beat us with that stake.

20        Q.   Apart from the stake, did they carry any other weapons?

21        A.   Yes.  They always came with weapons.  He wouldn't go around

22     without weapons.

23        Q.   Did you see Sredoje Lukic carrying anything when he came to

24     Uzamnica?

25        A.   No, I didn't.  Just his hands and his submachine-gun which he

Page 2188

 1     carried.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kustura, how long were you detained in Uzamnica?

 3        A.   Three years and ten days.

 4        Q.   Can you describe the interaction between Milan Lukic and the

 5     Uzamnica guards?

 6        A.   Milan, when he came, if the door was closed, if the guard had

 7     closed the door and gone off somewhere, Milan would open the lock and by

 8     the time the guard came back he would have beaten us all.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Could we go into private session for the next few

10     questions, please.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12         [Private session]  [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2189

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15     "Come on, (redacted) he said, "Let's go there and see if (redacted) is

16     still alive," and then we went there and (redacted) was still slightly alive

17     so we pulled him out of the puddle and carried him back into the hangar.

18        Q.   Can you tell us -- you've used two names.  One is (redacted)  The

19     other is (redacted)  Is that the same person?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  The same person.  He is short.  That's why we called

21     him (redacted) which is diminutive.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2190











11  Pages 2190-2193 redacted. Private session.















Page 2194

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 9             MS. MARCUS:

10        Q.   Mr. Kustura, during your detention did you ever directly see any

11     prisoners being taken out by Milan Lukic?

12        A.   I saw him hundreds of times beat us, all of us.  He was a tall

13     man.  He would come to the door and then he would kick someone and people

14     fell down and he would go on beating them.

15        Q.   Did you ever witness Milan Lukic take anyone away who never

16     returned again?

17             MR. ALARID:  Objection, leading.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Agreed.  Don't answer the question.

19             You have to reformulate it.

20             MS. MARCUS:

21        Q.   Mr. Kustura, did you ever see with your own eyes Milan Lukic take

22     anybody away?

23             MR. ALARID:  Same objection, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I allow that question.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nermin and the man from Rogatica.

Page 2195

 1     I saw him take them away.

 2             MS. MARCUS:

 3        Q.   Who took them away?

 4        A.   Milan and Sredoje.

 5        Q.   Did you ever witness any killings during the time you were in

 6     Uzamnica?

 7        A.   No.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You can ask him whether he saw -- he ever saw

 9     them again, they having been taken away.  That's not objectionable.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they never returned.

12             MS. MARCUS:

13        Q.   Mr. Kustura, what happened to your mother?

14        A.   She died in the camp because of all the suffering.  She just

15     died.  There you go.  She had to watch what they were doing to us.  She

16     had to listen to all the stories about the hangar and everything.  She

17     just had to die.  She had no choice.

18        Q.   Were you able to bury her?

19        A.   Other camp inmates went and buried her body somewhere.  I still

20     don't know where it was that they buried her, nor do I have anyone to

21     ask.  It was all blown apart, no inmates remaining, and I simply have no

22     way of knowing where she was buried.

23        Q.   What happened to your wife?

24        A.   My wife died in Sarajevo after we had left the camp.

25        Q.   Were you ever given any medical treatment for any of the injuries

Page 2196

 1     you suffered as a result of the beatings?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes, always.  They would always take me.  My

 3     daughters-in-law would take me to see a doctor that was at the hospital

 4     nearby and my daughter-in-law took me there, and that's where I received

 5     treatment.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kustura, during the time that you were imprisoned in

 7     Uzamnica, were you given any medical care?

 8        A.   Perish the thought.  Never.  Who could possibly give me medical

 9     care, perhaps the same people who were beating me up and killing me.  Do

10     you think they would have given me any medical care?

11        Q.   Did the Red Cross ever visit Uzamnica?

12        A.   Five times, six perhaps.  They came, but the Serbs never allowed

13     them to enter the camp.  The one time they did they said they were

14     telling the Red Cross that we were just having a Sunday walkabout, that

15     nobody had to do anything at all.  There were two military toilets there,

16     and they said, "This is the one that they use," but actually we were

17     using buckets and not those facilities.

18        Q.   How did you ultimately manage to get out of the detention centre?

19        A.   There was an exchange, all for all.  They released Serbs.  They

20     released Muslims.  Depending on where you were from.  They sent us to

21     Sarajevo, and the Serbs probably to their own areas.

22        Q.   Was your wife released with you?

23        A.   She was, yes.  At the same time.  There were other women there,

24     too.  They were all released.

25        Q.   Do you recall the date of your release?

Page 2197

 1        A.   The 10th of December.

 2        Q.   Do you recall what year that was?

 3        A.   1994, I think.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

 6             Mr. Alarid.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kustura.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Do you recall giving statements before in this case, and do you

12     recall giving a statement in November of 1994?

13        A.   Yes.  I've lost track.  I can't remember all of them, can I?

14        Q.   Well, and the reason I say that is you just testified you got out

15     of the prison in December 1994, and it seems that you gave the statement

16     a month before that.  So I'm clarifying that.  And so maybe the better

17     question is, isn't it true you got out of Uzamnica October of 1994

18     instead of December?

19        A.   Might be.  That just might be.  I forget.

20        Q.   And before October of 1994, when was the last time you believe

21     you saw Milan Lukic?

22        A.   Well, we didn't see him for quite a long time because he was over

23     in Belgrade in the prison, so we didn't see him.  Then they said he'd

24     come back as soon as he was back from that prison, and then once he came

25     back with the guards' commander, and he said, "Is there anything you

Page 2198

 1     need, coffee, brandy, sugar?  Milan is your man.  I'll bring you

 2     everything."  And nobody dared speak a word.  And I was just standing

 3     there and I said, "Milan, bring us all you can.  We need everything."  So

 4     he left and he never returned.  And we were exchanged soon, fortunately.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Dieckmann.

 6             MR. DIECKMANN:  Your Honours, just for clarification, my learned

 7     friend Mr. Alarid did not mention that he's the counsel for Mr. Milan

 8     Lukic, just for clarification for the record.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that's noted.

10             MR. DIECKMANN:  Thank you.

11             MR. ALARID:

12        Q.   And you indicate that he came there sometime before you were

13     released in the exchange.  Can you tell us how long before?

14        A.   Ten days, eight or ten days.

15        Q.   And before that, when was the last time you had seen --

16        A.   The last time was then, when he came to the hangar to ask if we

17     needed anything so he could bring it.

18        Q.   And on that occasion is it fair that he did not hurt anybody that

19     you saw?

20        A.   No, no.  No, he didn't, not then.  He was as meek as a lamb that

21     time he came.  We just stood up, as we always did, lined up, and he said,

22     "Sit down.  Sit down.  Stay where you are."  That's how it happened.

23        Q.   And before that time you indicated that you -- before that time

24     you indicated that you believed he was in prison in Belgrade, and so how

25     much further earlier had you seen him last?

Page 2199

 1        A.   I didn't see him again after he'd left and went to that prison in

 2     Belgrade.  I never saw him again after that.

 3        Q.   And when do you believe he went to that prison in Belgrade, if

 4     you can tell us?

 5        A.   There was that man who had owned two shops at Kalemegdan and

 6     there were Serbs working there, so Milan went there and asked that man,

 7     "Will you give me those shops," and he said, "I will, Milan, just don't

 8     hit me.  Just take them, and that's that."  And then Milan went the other

 9     time and killed this Serb at Kalemegdan, and then they locked him up.

10     Locked him behind bars.

11        Q.   What's more important to me, sir, and it's only if you can

12     remember, is do you remember the month and the year that you believe that

13     that happened?

14        A.   It was the summer, the last summer when we left the camp.

15        Q.   And so you're saying it's the summer of 1994?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   And so you're saying that you saw him at the camp between when

18     you got there, every other day until the summer of 1994?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   Could you please describe this Milan Lukic.

21        A.   Tall man, clean-shaven, tall.

22        Q.   Hair colour?

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How tall.  How tall, Witness?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 190, 180, 190, tall.

25             MR. ALARID:

Page 2200

 1        Q.   What was his hair colour?

 2        A.   Sorry?  I didn't get that.

 3        Q.   What colour was his hair?

 4        A.   How long his hair was.  Always closely cropped.  He never had

 5     long hair.

 6        Q.   What colour?

 7        A.   Black.

 8        Q.   Did you know the colour of his eyes?

 9        A.   That, I don't know.  I swear.  I never looked him in the eye.

10     There was no time.

11        Q.   How old are you today, sir?

12        A.   I was born in 1930, so you can do the math for yourself.  The

13     15th of March, that's my birthday.

14        Q.   And after your arrival at the barracks, what was the first time

15     you believe you saw Milan Lukic?

16        A.   The second or third day.  He came right away.

17        Q.   And you were there in October of 1992?  Is that true?

18        A.   Yes, the 3rd of October.

19        Q.   And did you talk to all the inmates that were in your side of the

20     barracks, the men's side?

21        A.   Yes.  Well, later on in the evening you would do some whispering

22     and just talk and lie down.

23        Q.   Now, when you were brought there you were brought by a police

24     car; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2201

 1        Q.   And you were brought there by policemen in police uniforms;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And do you know if the other inmates were also brought there by

 5     police cars?

 6        A.   No, I don't know.  I don't know.  I didn't see that.

 7        Q.   Were you ever taken -- during your arrest were you ever taken to

 8     the SJB in Visegrad?

 9        A.   No.  They first took us to the school and from the school

10     straight to Uzamnica.

11        Q.   Do you know Hajrudin Mutapcic?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   If he gave a statement indicating that he could stay at your

14     house and you used to be involved in making explosives, would that be

15     true?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  One microphone at a time, please, thank you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not Hajrudin Mutapcic.

18     That's a different name.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   Were you ever involved in making explosives during the

21     resistance?

22        A.   No, not me.  [Microphone not activated] saw neighbours do that.

23        Q.   Could you repeat that, please, sir?

24        A.   I saw them make explosives at my neighbour's place.  They would

25     put it all together and then wrap it up in order to throw it.

Page 2202

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can't hear the witness.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Would you please repeat what you just said,

 3     Witness?  The interpreter didn't hear.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the all the other microphones please be

 5     switched off.  We can't hear on account of all the background noise.

 6     Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make explosives myself,

 8     not ever, but I did see other people do things.

 9             MR. ALARID:

10        Q.   Did you know the names of these neighbours that made explosives?

11        A.   Halid's son, Halid Kahriman.  They did.

12        Q.   When your arm was broken, I think you stated that you never got

13     any medical attention.  How did you set the breaks?

14        A.   Well, it just stopped by itself and that was that.  I was all

15     black and blue.

16        Q.   But you indicate in your statement that after a beating, both

17     arms were broken, one in three places and the other one in one place, and

18     I'm wondering how you could recover from that.

19        A.   Well, I had no choice but to recover, did I.  There was no

20     medical assistance.  I don't know exactly how it occurred, but it did.

21        Q.   Is it possible that your arms were not broken but you just

22     thought they were because of the pain?

23        A.   There certainly was a great amount of pain.  And it's not that I

24     thought they were broken.  I'm absolutely certain they were broken.

25        Q.   But your arms were -- how long until you were able to use your

Page 2203

 1     arms again to do anything?

 2        A.   Six months, thereabouts.

 3        Q.   Do you remember in what month and what year your arms were

 4     broken?

 5        A.   I don't know, I swear.  The first or the second year.

 6        Q.   If you were brought in in October of 1992, how many months after

 7     your initial being brought in?

 8        A.   Could have been sometime midway through the winter.

 9        Q.   Of 1992 or 1993?

10        A.   It could have been 1993 or it could have been 1992.

11             MR. ALARID:  I have no further questions.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Alarid.

13             Mr. Cepic, or is it Mr. Dieckmann?

14             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Dieckmann has been preparing for

15     cross-examination for this witness but we kindly ask if we can start

16     tomorrow morning because we've been waiting for translation for these

17     additional statements that Mr. Dermot Groome mentioned.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MR. GROOME:  Your microphone, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, would you just remind me of these

21     statements?

22             MR. GROOME:  That was our shortcoming in the disclosure that I

23     mentioned before the witness testified.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Oh, I see.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the further information about it is

Page 2204

 1     that those translated pages will be available hopefully sometime tomorrow

 2     midmorning.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your microphone, Your Honour.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  If we adjourn now, then, tomorrow morning with

 7     whom would we start if this is not going to be available until

 8     midmorning?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I suggest we start with the

10     cross-examination of Ewa Tabeau, and then when that's completed then the

11     translation should be available.  We'll get them to Defence counsel.

12     Again it's just six pages, I believe, and we'll get them to Defence

13     counsel as soon as they become available.  Hopefully we could do the

14     cross-examination then.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll follow the procedure suggested by the

16     Prosecutor.  Tomorrow morning, then, at ten minutes to 9.00.  8.50 a.m.

17             Witness, we are going to adjourn now.  We're going to adjourn

18     now, so you can leave when we leave, and you'll be told when to return

19     tomorrow.  Do you understand?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, all right.  At what time

21     should I come here?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have persons --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have persons within the Tribunal who will

25     tell you that.  They will tell you when to return.  It's likely to be

Page 2205

 1     sometime in the middle of the morning, though.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.44 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day

 4                           of September, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.