Page 2116
1 Tuesday, 23 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just have one preliminary
7 question with your leave related to the OTP witness Ewa Tabeau. Namely
8 yesterday OTP requested admission of uploading -- uploaded report which
9 was filed just yesterday and which is conducted during the weekend which
10 wasn't on the 65 ter list. They did not request admission of the basic
11 report from 2001 which was filed on 65 ter list and I tried to compare
12 those two reports and I found some discrepancies and actually for the
13 preparation of cross-examination I need additional time because this is a
14 completely new -- new matter. That is completely new report.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I know you weren't dealing with
16 this, but are you in a position to respond?
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, my understanding is and Ms. Marcus will
18 actually be taking one of the witnesses this afternoon so she may be able
19 to deal more specifically with it, but my understanding of this new
20 report is it simply reflects -- none of the conclusions have changed. It
21 simply reflects some new data that has become available recently and
22 Ms. Tabeau just updated the data sources. But and Mr. Cepic to correct
23 me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that none of her conclusions
24 regarding the report have changed in any way. It's simply updating some
25 of the numbers as reflected in some newly acquired data.
Page 2117
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Cepic, if I understand you correctly
2 then, you -- you have done a comparison between the new updated report
3 and the old one of 2001 and you have found discrepancies.
4 MR. CEPIC: Precisely, Your Honour. Actually, I couldn't do in
5 very short period of time to complete my comparison, but as far as I
6 understand up to now, there are different sources, there are some
7 differences, some discrepancies, but for the -- to complete my
8 comparison, I need additional time. That's the problem.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is the -- that's your basic problem. You
10 say you need additional time.
11 MR. CEPIC: Exactly, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because we were scheduled to have you on
13 tomorrow.
14 MR. CEPIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: For cross-examination. Now we have a witness on
16 Thursday, and it is very important that we take that witness, as I
17 understand it.
18 Mr. Groome?
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I would be renewing my
20 application to deal Thursday with a particular witness, start and finish
21 that witness on a single day.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But, Mr. Cepic, if you have this report and
23 you're able to find discrepancies, why do you need more time if you've
24 already found the discrepancies?
25 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, yesterday is disclosed the new updated
Page 2118
1 report, and I couldn't do that in just couple hours. As I said, I
2 couldn't complete my -- my comparation between those two material, and
3 additionally yesterday we received and the Prosecutor requested admission
4 of two new tables which they contain the names of missing persons. This
5 is also new material.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I see you have three more witnesses
7 lined up for this week, on the 23rd, the 24th, and the 25th.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, one of those witnesses is a witness
9 that we made an application for a subpoena. It's my understanding that
10 it's kind of out of our hands now so we're not even sure when this
11 witness -- if the witness receives the subpoena when they'll arrive in
12 The Hague. I don't know whether that witness is here. Perhaps the court
13 officer can inform the Chamber whether it's likely that VG-17 will appear
14 this week.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court officer doesn't have any information
17 right now, but she's expecting some news shortly.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, when Ms. Marcus arrives, and she has
20 greater familiarity with this matter, I'll deal with it.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Is there any other procedural matter?
23 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, let the witness be called.
25 [The witness entered court]
Page 2119
1 WITNESS: JOHN CLARK [Resumed]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit. And, Dr. Clark, you remain subject
3 to the declaration that you made.
4 Ms. Mazzocco, you had completed your examination-in-chief?
5 MS. MAZZOCCO: I suppose there should be the cross by the Defence
6 counsel for Sredoje Lukic.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, then.
8 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, Mr. Dieckmann has prepared some
9 questions for the witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Dieckmann. Mr. Dieckmann, yes.
11 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Dieckmann:
13 Q. Dr. Clark, good afternoon.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. My name is Jens Dieckmann and I am counsel for Sredoje Lukic.
16 Since your report that is P122 in evidence is not directly related to our
17 client, I just have some questions for clarification.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Dr. Clark, when you conducted your autopsies did you have any
20 indication as to when these people died?
21 A. Other than just the information we were given that they had died
22 in about 1992.
23 Q. Did you have any indication as to how long they had been buried
24 for?
25 A. No. Nothing specific.
Page 2120
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. DIECKMANN: Could the court officer call in evidence the
3 document P122. Thank you.
4 Q. I refer to the second paragraph, and I just would like to read
5 the first sentences to make clear what I am referring to. I quote: "We
6 were informed that these were alleged to be the bodies of people killed
7 in or around Visegrad in the summer of 1992, including people who had
8 been shot on the bridge and thrown over the side. Their bodies ended up
9 in the River Drina below and were carried downstream for approximately 20
10 kilometres to where the river takes a major bend at Zepa. There, the
11 bodies were recovered from the water by local people and buried in a
12 wooded area a little distance away. They were placed into mainly
13 individual graves, each marked by a wooden post on which a number or name
14 was carved. At the time of the examination eight years later the site
15 was designated as Slap 1."
16 So, Dr. Clark, is it fair to say that prior to your involvement
17 in these autopsies you have already received information that these
18 bodies had been in the ground for circa eight years?
19 A. That was the general information, yes.
20 Q. So there wasn't --
21 A. Sorry --
22 Q. Sorry.
23 A. Yes, I suppose, yeah, it would be eight years. I was going to
24 say that the information was that they were killed eight years earlier
25 but I suppose by inference they were probably buried around about the
Page 2121
1 same time.
2 Q. Thank you. So there was no independent assessment to contradict
3 that assumption?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So before you were involved in the specific autopsies, did you
6 receive some briefing from an investigator involved with the ICTY or
7 investigators of local authorities?
8 A. We received a briefing document from a local Judge, cantonal
9 Judge.
10 Q. So is it fair to say that you were informed in a general sense as
11 to the perceived is circumstances under which these victims had met their
12 deaths before you started the specific autopsy?
13 A. In a general sense, yes.
14 Q. I think I'm too fast. Yes. Okay. So you would not have come to
15 the case with an open mind as to whether these were potentially victims
16 in a combat situation as equally as victims in alleged execution. Is
17 that fair?
18 A. I think professionally I can -- I can maintain an independence.
19 It's not difficult. And if I had come across evidence that these were
20 combat casualties in the sense that we found military clothing or
21 ammunitions, that would most certainly be recorded in the report.
22 Q. In your mind the balance weighed in favour of the fact that these
23 were people who had been victims of alleged executions. Is it correct to
24 say, that there was rather a balance that they are victims?
25 A. Yes, again in the sense that there was no real evidence that
Page 2122
1 these were any military background here.
2 Q. Thank you. So again in fact you do not know how long the
3 recovered bodies were buried there?
4 A. Not specifically, no. Not precisely.
5 Q. And in fact -- in fact, you do not know if these bodies -- in
6 fact, you do not know if these bodies have spent any time in water before
7 being buried?
8 A. I can't say that specifically, no.
9 Q. And --
10 A. The changes on -- affecting a body being in a water are on the
11 skin and other soft tissues, and of course that was present, so I can't
12 specifically say they were in water.
13 Q. So due to your examinations -- I'm sorry, there's a translation
14 problem with the B/C/S. I'm sorry.
15 So if I may conclude. Due to your examination and your scope of
16 examinations, it is equally likely that these bodies were never in the
17 water of the Drina River?
18 A. It is possible, yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. DIECKMANN: I don't have any further questions of this
21 witness.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Dieckmann.
23 Any re-examination, Ms. Mazzocco?
24 MS. MAZZOCCO: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 Re-examination by Ms. Mazzocco:
Page 2123
1 Q. Dr. Clark, did you find the personal possession on the bodies?
2 A. We found some personal possessions, yes.
3 Q. Did you find clothing on the bodies?
4 A. On the majority of bodies, yes, were clothing.
5 Q. Did you find any military clothing on the bodies?
6 A. No.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please observe a pause for
8 the benefit of the interpreters. Thank you.
9 MS. MAZZOCCO:
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
11 A. Sorry, I didn't hear that last question.
12 Q. Did you find any firearms or bullets in their possession -- or
13 bullet, sorry.
14 A. I can't remember. I don't think we found any firearms. I think
15 on one of the bodies in Slap 2, we found three bullets.
16 MS. MAZZOCCO: Can be displayed page 7 of Exhibit P122.
17 THE WITNESS: I think I can see what you're getting at. I've
18 specifically said that none of the victims was wearing any military
19 clothing and none had any firearms or bullets in their possession. I
20 would qualify that by, having looked at the files again that in the grave
21 of one of the bodies in Slap 2, I do remember we found three bullets.
22 Whether they belonged to that body or not I don't know, but they were in
23 that grave.
24 Q. Were these bullet in the clothing of this body or in the body
25 itself?
Page 2124
1 A. No, no, just loose in -- loose in -- these were unused. These
2 were unused rounds of application which were in -- in the grave. Not
3 necessarily with the body, but they were beside the body.
4 Q. Thank you. And is it possible to say how long it takes for a
5 body to became a skeleton?
6 A. It depends entirely where the body is. A body will degenerate to
7 a skeleton -- if it's left outside in the air, depending on the time of
8 year, depending on whether there are animals and insects about, a body
9 could be reduced to a skeleton as quickly as six or seven weeks or so,
10 but equally long -- it could be much longer. A body that is in water
11 will take longer to decompose or to reduce to skeleton, and a body that
12 is buried will take even longer.
13 It's an impossible question to answer, I'm afraid. I have seen
14 people -- bodies reduced to a skeleton within eight weeks -- six weeks,
15 six weeks in fact, yet many of the bodies that we saw in other grave
16 sites in my work in the Balkans had been buried for equal amount of time
17 and still had a lot of flesh on them. It is very variable.
18 Q. Thank you. Was there -- was there any judicial authority present
19 at the time of exhumation?
20 A. I believe that certainly in the Slap -- Slap 2 cases --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
22 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, just in interest to speed up procedure.
23 I think we already have this answer, and some questions sounds to me that
24 this is a new direct examination. Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: How does this arise, Ms. Mazzocco?
Page 2125
1 MS. MAZZOCCO: Because yesterday in the cross-examination was
2 suggested some mishandling of the bodies, that the bodies could be mixed
3 up and not well brought to the mortuary.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very well. Yes.
5 MS. MAZZOCCO:
6 Q. So --
7 A. Certainly on the exhumation of the Slap 2 bodies, because I was
8 actually present at that time, there was a Judge. A local Judge was
9 there. I do not know who was present in the Slap 1 bodies, but I can
10 only imagine that there would have been a Judge there.
11 Q. And was there any judicial authority present at the time of
12 identification?
13 A. I think there was, yes. I think the same Judge was present at
14 least some of the time.
15 Q. And going back to that identification of Osmanagic, that body
16 361, the Exhibit P124, can you explain where it happened?
17 A. The identification?
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. From memory we worked -- we worked in a mortuary in Visoko, and
20 this was -- also happened to be the local graveyard and undertaker, so we
21 handed the bodies back to them in the same area, and the identification
22 subsequently took place actually on the roof of our mortuary.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 MS. MAZZOCCO: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, Doctor. That concludes
Page 2126
1 your evidence. We thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you're now dismissed.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, please.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next Prosecution witness is Mirsad
7 Tokaca.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave just for
10 the transcript, we do not see the testimony of this witness as relevant
11 because he is not an eyewitness in terms of the indictment with regard to
12 this legal matter, or he is a hearsay witness, if I can put it that way.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't understand why you say that, because we
15 take in hearsay evidence in this judicial system.
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness
18 there's one matter I would like to ask the Chamber to give some
19 consideration to. With a view towards expediting the witnesses that the
20 Prosecution has -- has a pending application to -- to add to our witness
21 list, I would note that today we have provided unredacted statements of
22 all the witnesses to Defence counsel not in anticipation of the Chamber's
23 decision but at least give them the most notice about the statements.
24 With one exception and that one where we're seeking a particular
25 protective measure in terms of redaction of one of the statements.
Page 2127
1 My question to the Chamber is -- or what I would ask the Chamber
2 to consider is we have not had an opportunity to explore with any of
3 these people whether there's a need for protective measures, and I'm
4 wondering whether -- what the views of Defence counsel would be and
5 whether the Chamber would consider if we dealt with the issue of
6 protective measures on an oral basis so that when the witness arrives we
7 can bring to the Chamber's attention any concern they have and a decision
8 could be made or would the Chamber require us to do the standard written
9 filings for protective measures.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
11 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we have not receive any material related
12 to some witnesses, and my learned friend Mr. Groome can remind me,
13 Professor Markovic, I haven't found his name on the list. Thank you.
14 MR. GROOME: It may be in transit now, but I issued a directive
15 this morning that they be disclosed today. So it may be just at the end
16 of the day now that they're received. If there's any problem I would be
17 happy to deal -- discuss that with Defence counsel after court.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting, but who is
20 Professor Markovic? I never heard before that name on the list of
21 witnesses. Thank you.
22 MR. GROOME: Nor have I, Your Honour. We discuss it after court.
23 It may be perhaps this statement mentions a witness and it may be
24 disclosed pursuant to Rule 68, but I would be happy to go over any of the
25 statements with Mr. Cepic over the break or afterwards and clarify
Page 2128
1 anything that's not clear from the statement itself.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's no problem with your raising the issue
3 of protective measures orally.
4 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. While we're on the matter
5 of protective measures, I have spoken once again to Zehra Turjacanin to
6 confirm that it really is indeed her wish to testify publicly and she
7 reaffirmed to me earlier today that it is her wish not to have any
8 protective measures so at this time I would be formally requesting that
9 the protective measures pertaining to her be amended so that she
10 testifies publicly in open session without the use of a pseudonym.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is to be done. The witness.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 WITNESS: MIRSAD TOKACA
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. And you may begin, Madam
19 Prosecutor.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Friedman.
22 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
23 Q. Mr. Witness, will you please state your name for the record.
24 A. Mirsad Tokaca, born in Sarajevo on the 28th of July, 1954.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, we'll be
Page 2129
1 seeking to admit three video clips this afternoon through this witness
2 and I'm conscious of the time limit for 92 ter witnesses. This witness
3 has testified in three trials previously before this Tribunal. His
4 educational and professional background and the work of his organisation
5 is discussed in those trials, and I wanted to make an application to lead
6 him through this information.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN:
9 Q. Mr. Tokaca, I'm going to summarise your educational and
10 professional background and I will ask you at the end if I have done so
11 accurately.
12 You studied in the University of Sarajevo where you received a
13 diploma in political sciences and also studied law and economics. Before
14 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you first worked as a journalist, later as
15 an analyst of social policy and social welfare, and finally in financial
16 marketing management and trade.
17 At the start of the war you began to work for the state
18 commission on gathering facts on war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina. This
19 organisation was established in April 1992, and you began in the first
20 months of this existence to volunteer your time. You were then asked to
21 become secretary of the commission, which essentially means that you
22 directed it, at August of 1992.
23 Have I stated that accurately?
24 A. Yes. Everything is correct.
25 Q. Okay. Next I will briefly summarise the activities of the
Page 2130
1 commission and will ask you again at the end if it's accurate.
2 The state commission on gathering facts on war crimes set out to
3 gather all possible information about war crimes committed against all
4 ethnicities using written statements, audiotapes, videotapes, and
5 whatever was available. This work was undertaken in Sarajevo as well as
6 in the field wherever additional premises could be established. All of
7 the evidence was brought back to the central office in Sarajevo where it
8 was organised, analysed, and archived.
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And finally, I will just ask about your professional
12 activities after you worked at the state commission.
13 In 2003, you formed the Research and Documentation Centre, and
14 you are the president of that institution. The Research and
15 Documentation Centre functions independently of the government. It is
16 engaged in various projects, including the human losses project and the
17 Bosnian book of the dead.
18 Have I stated that correctly?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Tokaca, what happened to the archives of the state
21 commission?
22 A. Well, you see, we faced many problems over a long period of time.
23 There was pressure and we didn't have sufficient funds for the state
24 commission, the work of the state commission, and after the peace
25 agreement was signed bodies of government were joined by people who
Page 2131
1 unfortunately were deeply involved in crimes against humanity. One of
2 them, Mr. Krajisnik, was tried and convicted by this Tribunal not such a
3 long ago which in practical terms made our work very difficult, if not
4 impossible. I resigned in 2003 simply because we didn't have sufficient
5 funds to continue our work and then I set up an institute, or, rather, it
6 was a centre for research which dealt with researching war crimes. In a
7 way I wanted a long-term commitment for myself in this line of work and I
8 wanted to start what we -- I wanted to continue what we first started out
9 doing as part of the state commission. All of these documents because at
10 one point unfortunately the state started -- stopped keeping track of
11 these documents, remained in the possession of the research institute.
12 Therefore we physically in every way --
13 Q. I think you're speaking a bit faster than me. Could you go a bit
14 slower, please.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. I'm so sorry. Okay. I'm so sorry.
16 I will try to respect.
17 A. [Interpretation] So, all of the documentation in our possession
18 that we had collected over more than ten years is fully preserved are
19 still available. We continue to comply with the requests made by any
20 organs of the judiciary that had any interest in this documentation,
21 which included this Tribunal and which at this point in time and over the
22 coming years will probably also include the work of our special
23 commission for war crimes, a special council for war crimes that was
24 established in Sarajevo and has been active over the last three years.
25 Q. Thank you. So the archives of the state commission on gathering
Page 2132
1 facts on war crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina, where are they now located?
2 A. They're in the archive of the Research and Documentation Centre
3 based in Sarajevo.
4 Q. Mr. Tokaca, do you recall testifying in the Vasiljevic trial on
5 September 21st, 2001?
6 A. Yes, I remember that well. It was about identifying certain
7 video clips that were in our possession at the time. Yes, yes, I do
8 remember.
9 Q. Have you had a chance to read that testimony in a language you
10 understand?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I know you are speaking today in B/C/S, but just for the
13 record, were you able to understand that testimony in English?
14 A. Yes. I understand English fully. I actually speak English but
15 the circumstances being what they are, I'd not wish to leave any room for
16 misinterpretation or anything of that nature, anything that is not fully
17 in line with the extent to which I am a master of my mother tongue, but I
18 have a full understanding of everything that is said and written in
19 English.
20 Q. And was your testimony accurate?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we asked you the same questions today would you give the same
23 answers?
24 A. I don't know if the wording would be the same but the essence
25 would certainly remain the same.
Page 2133
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to tender 65
2 ter Exhibit 56, which is Mr. Tokaca's Vasiljevic testimony, into
3 evidence.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P127, Your Honours.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would ask the court usher to switch to Sanction.
7 It's not yet done. And if Mr. Van Hooydonk could call up 65 ter 193.1
8 but not play it yet.
9 Q. Mr. Tokaca, do you see the first video -- the first still from
10 this video in front of you?
11 A. I have the image, but it's frozen.
12 Q. Okay. Can you tell if this is a video that you've had a chance
13 to see since coming to The Hague?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what is it?
16 A. This is one of the refugee collection centres. I don't know the
17 exact location, but I suppose it might have been somewhere in the
18 surroundings of Zenica. I'm not entirely certain, though. Quite
19 obviously, though, this is a refugee collection centre, a place where
20 refugees were being put up at the time.
21 Q. Did the Research and Documentation Centre provide this video to
22 the Office of the Prosecutor?
23 A. Yes. There was a request from the OTP, and we secured the clip
24 for you. It's in your hands now.
25 Q. And how did you get this video originally?
Page 2134
1 A. Well, you see, that would require me to explain our modus
2 operandi at least in the roughest of terms. We tried to comply with
3 certain standards when collecting facts, gathering facts about crimes
4 that were committed in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We put together a methodology
5 of work that was quite exhaustive and comprehensive which also entailed
6 instructions on how such work would be performed. Of course, when we
7 talk about methodology the question that always arises is the
8 implementation stage unless of course you have all the right conditions
9 in place for implementing that type of methodology, unless you have on
10 the ground, you have all the manpower that you need for performing those
11 tasks and if you're not able to --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are speaking too fast. The interpreter is
13 having difficulty keeping up to you.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. [Interpretation] So you can create an ideal
15 method, an ideal methodology, but if you don't have the people on the
16 ground who are able to implement whatever methodology you come up with,
17 then it's very difficult to secure very high standards to make sure you
18 have high standards for gathering documents. Therefore, wherever we
19 could, wherever we had a chance to implement this methodology we did so
20 in the strictest of terms.
21 On the other hand, you must know one thing. We worked under very
22 difficult conditions. The commission was based in Sarajevo. Sarajevo
23 was entirely encircled. And we used any form of communication open to us
24 at the time to get in touch with people on the ground and in order to
25 instruct them in the following way. If you can't use the methodology we
Page 2135
1 selected -- I'm not just talking about professionals and I'm not just
2 talking about volunteers. I'm talking about any citizen who happened to
3 be in possession of any sort of photograph, video clip or anything like
4 that or rather who had the equipment to record anything should try to
5 take advantage of that technology or the equipment in their possession in
6 order to record anything they could that was happening at the time.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can we go briefly into private session, Your
9 Honour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2136
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 [Private session]
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] MV3: Crni Vrh and the other
15 places around Visegrad. They chased us out by using poison. They drove
16 them to these mountain areas, and in a refugee centre there are about
17 2.000 refugees taking refuge in the mountains, forests, and rocky ground.
18 This is the first group that arrived, and we are expecting the arrival of
19 other groups which are on their way. What people are saying, the village
20 of Barimo sounds like a pure disaster. According to preliminary reports
21 from the field there are 27 innocent victims, women, children and elderly
22 people and all those who didn't manage to escape. They used rubber boats
23 and the Chetniks crossed over to the left side of the Drina River.
24 "MV4: This is the first time being photographed.
25 "MV6: Hello, how is it going? Where is your father?
Page 2137
1 "MV11: No, we are -- we went to Crni Vrh.
2 "MV12: A pack of cigarettes, cameraman, what do you say?
3 "MV11: Well, we started up 10.30. Now it's noon, so around 1300
4 or 1400 hours."
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: We have one more clip to show from this video, and
6 that one I would ask to be not broadcast publicly. So if we could go
7 into private session.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 [Private session]
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
Page 2139
1 MS. FRIEDMAN:
2 Q. Mr. Tokaca, do you see this first still of the video on the
3 screen in front of you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have you had a chance to view it since coming to The Hague?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what is in this video, just briefly?
8 A. This is a map of Bosnia and Herzegovina focusing on the Visegrad
9 area. As far as I remember, this was some TV coverage from Visegrad.
10 Q. Did the Research and Documentation Centre provide this to the
11 OTP?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And does it depict Visegrad at the time of the takeover?
14 A. Yes. This is, if I remember correctly, as far as this coverage
15 is concerned.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
17 MR. CEPIC: I've heard a lot of leading questions up to now.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Be careful about that.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Actually, we can -- could we just play the video
23 at this time.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 [Videotape played]
Page 2140
1 MS. FRIEDMAN:
2 Q. Mr. Tokaca, can you tell me when this video clip was taken?
3 A. I can't give you the exact date, but I know for certain this was
4 in the second half of April 1992.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: We tender this as an exhibit, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P130, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, it is not related to my case, but I just
10 would like to raise that this video contains different two video clips
11 from different -- from two different broadcasting company. One is
12 Belgrade television and second is Sarajevo television, which is
13 completely different, especially was different in that period of time,
14 so ...
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: We can ask the witness about that.
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, just a minute.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we don't wish to hear anything more about
20 this. Have you then completed?
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Alarid.
23 MR. ALARID: Briefly, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
25 Q. Mr. Tokaca, good afternoon.
Page 2141
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. My name is Jason Alarid and I represent Milan Lukic. I'd like to
3 talk to you a little bit about your research and your background.
4 Now, would it be fair to say that you were an activist brought to
5 activism by the war?
6 A. I don't understand.
7 Q. Well, it was the -- it was the impetus of the war that changed
8 your career path and you became an activist?
9 A. The war changed my career path radically, if you like, but I was
10 not an activist. This notion to me implies something altogether
11 different. I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you use that term.
12 Q. And I don't mean to imply that you were biased to one side or
13 another. That's not what I'm coming at. What I'm more saying is that
14 you -- you found a cause that you felt close to your heart and you went
15 with that. That's not true?
16 A. I simply don't quite understand what you're driving at.
17 Q. Well, you established -- you established this organisation,
18 correct, the commission for gathering of facts on war crimes?
19 A. No, it wasn't me who established the commission. It was
20 established by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 by decision dated the 28th of April, 1992.
22 Q. And how much before the 28th of April, 1992, did you -- was the
23 commission founded?
24 A. No, no, no, no, no. It was founded on the 28th of April, 1992 by
25 a decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Page 2142
1 As of that moment, activities were commenced in establishing its work,
2 setting up teams. There were teams that were at work. There was a
3 political section comprising three members and the professional section
4 and I was in charge of that section. Officially speaking, I was
5 appointed on the 28th -- or, rather, the 18th of August, 1992. I was
6 appointed secretary of the state commission. As of that moment, my role
7 was to be technically in charge of all of the business of the state
8 commission. That was one of the dimensions. This was about the
9 professional section that comprised different professionals, historians,
10 sociologists, and so on and so forth.
11 On the other hand you had a three-member membership of the
12 commission and Stjepan Kljujic was in charge of that. He was the
13 president or the chairman of the commission, and then there was Mr. Miro
14 Lazovic, who was there on behalf of the parliament and then there was
15 Mr. Jahic, who was a minister in the government of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina. So roughly speaking this is how the commission was set up
17 and this was by decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina.
19 Q. Well, then maybe just ask you out of your own mouth how did you
20 gravitate towards the commission? Were you selected personally or did
21 you apply for it out of your personal beliefs?
22 A. At that point in time, May, June, July, I volunteered. It wasn't
23 any sort of professional involvement and it was because I had certain
24 experience in certain fields and had certain knowledge in certain fields.
25 The people back at the Presidency and in the commission decided at the
Page 2143
1 time that I was able to meet all the requirements for that appointment so
2 this was not a public tender. This was something you got by appointment,
3 and the only body with the power to make those appointments was the
4 Presidency.
5 Q. But in -- but you put your name out there. You put your career
6 out there to -- is that fair? And again, I'm not implying any kind of
7 bias but I do want to sort of explore how in your heart you volunteered
8 for this position. So what made you volunteer?
9 A. I was fully dedicated, and this was a conscious decision and with
10 an open mind. I had no dilemmas at the time, and I still don't. And
11 this applies to the rest of my life as well as to the last 16 years of my
12 life. I will continue to investigate any form of crime committed against
13 the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina and then perhaps I could tell you
14 about this too because this is more of a private angle on my part for all
15 of this, my private reason. My entire family but rather my mother's
16 family and my grandfather's family, my two uncles, their throats were
17 slit back in 1942 during World War II, so in a way I had an intimate
18 pre-war motive, a motive pre-dating the war in a way. So now you have
19 this similar situation re-occurring as it were, and then I tried to
20 record everything that was going on around me. I -- I tried to establish
21 some sort of an historical record on what was going on in my country and
22 this is something that you might call justice for all the innocent
23 victims and also punishment for all those who actually committed the war
24 crimes, so these were my private intimate motives that explain why I
25 joined this project. I would never take it back, and I still believe in
Page 2144
1 it as I believed in it on day one.
2 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And I guess from reading some of the
3 materials that I received from the Prosecution, it appears that your
4 commission didn't care if it was a Muslim or a Serb or a Croat that
5 was -- a crime was committed again, you would investigate all crimes. Is
6 that true?
7 A. Yes, certainly. Not just the three principal ethnic groups but
8 all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what I'm telling you
9 about. Of course I can't side who is who in terms of religion,
10 ethnicity, social background, what their political background might be or
11 some such. I was not politically involved. I was entirely independent
12 and I worked in keeping with my own conscience, the dictate of my own
13 conscience and in keeping with the rules, keeping perfectly in compliance
14 with international criminal law and with all the rules established by
15 international organisations in my work and I was adamant that this should
16 be the same sort of position taken by all the people surrounding this
17 project, there would be no discrimination of people along ethnic,
18 religious or political lines. My entire work focused on that and I can
19 even go as far as to say that at certain points in time I was subjected
20 to certain forms of pressure and also certain attempts to get me to adopt
21 that line of reasoning and to work in that way. I always resolutely
22 refused to be part of that. It was never my conviction that this should
23 be done and it never will be.
24 Q. And I was looking at some of the data that we received, and it's
25 my understanding that from some of your own research and documentation
Page 2145
1 the centre revealed in 2007 that Serbs composed about approximately 25
2 per cent of the military deaths and 10 per cent of the civilian deaths in
3 Bosnia. So there was some evidence of Serb casualties of course that
4 your centre catalogued. Is that fair?
5 A. Roughly speaking to the extent that I remember, the total, if you
6 look at the population, 24.000 Serbs who became casualties of war as
7 civilians -- or as civilians, as soldiers, over 10 per cent of that
8 figure accounts for civilian casualties so, yes, we were collecting data
9 on civilian casualties and of course also on military casualties, too,
10 or, rather, soldiers.
11 Q. And of course the collection of data was probably more difficult
12 during the actual conflict and then you were probably able to rectify
13 some of the numbers after things calmed down enough that you could
14 collect data in a more efficient manner?
15 A. Yes. It's always like that in wartime, isn't it, it's difficult
16 to collect data. I was fully aware of the fact that errors could occur
17 in wartime conditions. There was some forms of propaganda. So whatever
18 I collected during the war, I tried to have another look to make sure
19 everything was accurate. I looked at the losses, human losses in Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina. We wanted to collect information on each and every
21 citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina who was killed during that period
22 regardless of their affiliation to military units or along ethnic lines.
23 I'm talking about the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.
24 Q. When -- and is it true that you incorporated some of the data
25 from the 2004 report commissioned by the ICTY that -- that tried to
Page 2146
1 calculate the casualties and the composition of casualties to as good a
2 certainty as could be come to at the time? It's my understanding in the
3 2004 report that in the Bosnian conflict, military death toll was 58.3
4 per cent Muslim. Is that -- is that about right? 12.5 per cent
5 Croatian, and 29.2 per cent Serbian, with the civilian death toll amongst
6 the Serbian total being 30.5 per cent, and of course, I think that boils
7 down to 10 per cent if you look at the total amount; is that correct?
8 A. Let me offer a dual answer to this. Our investigation was
9 entirely independent and had nothing to do with the Tribunal's
10 investigations. When we first -- first started preparing, I didn't even
11 know that there were other people investigating. At a later point I
12 found an article in a demographic journal by Ewa Tabeau, I think, and
13 Mr. --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.
15 A. -- and they publish the figures that you now refer to. We did
16 not use the results of the Tribunal's work in our work. In terms of
17 organisation, in terms of equipment and purely physical terms our
18 investigation was entirely independent of the investigation pursued by
19 the Tribunal but the results are more or less the same. I do have the
20 information and there are some discrepancies between our results and the
21 results that you now present, but ultimately the results are quite close.
22 Q. And is -- is -- in being close, is it the difference between
23 102.000 people dead approximately and in 2007 the total was adjusted to
24 97.000 dead? Is that about right?
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: Could we maybe see the report that counsel is
Page 2147
1 referring to.
2 MR. ALARID: To be honest, I am referring to notes. I'm not
3 referring to the actual report right now.
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's just a little hard to follow.
5 MR. ALARID: Let's see if the witness can answer.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you able to answer?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. You can get more or less
8 the same results even if you applied to partially or entirely different
9 methods. We used ours and they used theirs. There might be certain
10 correlations but not necessarily. The difference between what we did on
11 the one hand and what they did is this. We --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the other microphones please be
13 switched off. The interpreters can't hear the witness. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: Can I continue?
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. Yes, please.
17 A. Every time we published a figure there was always the identity of
18 a specific victim behind it. We have the first name, the last name, and
19 a number of other variables that we use for our research. Our research,
20 our investigations included victims of direct war operations. So that
21 was the figure that we arrived at, and that was our result. In addition
22 to that kind of investigation, investigating direct victims of war, now
23 we're working on the second pillar as it were, indirect victims of war,
24 people who starved to death, for example, people who were victims of
25 various accidents, for example, soldiers who ate some poisonous
Page 2148
1 mushrooms, for example, some soldiers that were buried under an
2 avalanche, so they weren't killed in an operation but for example --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to kindly
4 slow down and repeat what he said. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry. The interpreter is asking you to
6 slow down again. You're speaking too fast.
7 Mr. Alarid, how much more time are you -- I would hope that we
8 could conclude this witness's testimony by the break.
9 MR. ALARID: When is our break, Your Honour?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: At a quarter to 4.00, because I have a suspicion
11 that Mr. Cepic may not exert himself too much.
12 MR. CEPIC: Precisely, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 MR. ALARID: Okay. I'll do my best, Your Honour. I apologise.
14 I'll do my best to speed things up.
15 Q. But you're not allowed to speed things up because the interpreter
16 can't keep up with you, so I'll just try and stay focused.
17 Now you -- in your attempts to be objective, you even had Bosnian
18 Serbs as experts on your commission. Is that fair?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But there was some things that came out. There was conflicting
21 commission reports. Did you ever look at the Belgrade commission report
22 of what happened in Visegrad? Even for the reading value, if not
23 incorporating it to an analysis?
24 A. We collected an enormous amount of reports, sources. We're
25 looking at thousands of sources. I really don't remember specifically
Page 2149
1 now, but I assume that we included whatever was available to us, be it
2 from Belgrade, from Zagreb, from somewhere abroad.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the other microphones please be
4 switched off. The interpreters can't hear the witness. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. The interpreters again, a
6 different concern this time, that the microphones are being left on, and
7 that means that they can't hear.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Go ahead, sir.
10 A. So, when I talk about human losses, and I understand that's what
11 we're talking about, we included whatever we could, whatever was
12 available to us regardless of the source. We calculated human losses
13 based on thousands -- rather, hundreds of different sources.
14 Q. And understanding that the --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. ALARID:
17 Q. Understanding that the focus in Bosnia of course was of the
18 displacement of the Muslim population, did you find instances of what
19 could be classified as war crimes where Serbians were victims simply on
20 an eye-for-an-eye situation even if it were sporadic?
21 A. First of all, let me explain this. We didn't deal with the
22 population movements. We dealt with murders, with expulsions and
23 disappearances. When you classify crimes, you have to look at what the
24 most serious crimes are, genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes.
25 Of course, part of that problem is the expulsion of people from their
Page 2150
1 homes. You saw the footage that was shown and then on the other hand we
2 dealt with other forms of violence and war crimes which included, as I
3 said, crimes against anyone, any ethnic group, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats,
4 or anyone else alike. We didn't discriminate along ethnic lines when it
5 came to victims. I worked certain cases, by way of an example, Celebici
6 where there were Serb victims, the camp at Celebici. There is a
7 conviction to that effect. It's part of the case law before this
8 Tribunal. I don't think this is the place to repeat this. You will see
9 that all the other ethnicities were also part of our work. Our main
10 principle was not to discriminate along ethnic lines when it came to
11 victims. It was an ethical matter. It was a professional matter, and we
12 always stuck to that. I was subjected to various attacks. I was
13 subjected to criticism even back in Sarajevo, but I thought that the
14 truth and the whole truth about the suffering of all those victims should
15 be known and that was my top priority.
16 Q. Well -- and the reason I asked you that is I didn't see a
17 statistic related to war crimes per se that we could apply to a Serb
18 civilian population or something within the same war theatre of Bosnia
19 because of course the whole country was embroiled in this conflict.
20 A. Well, I'm sorry if you didn't come across that, but I did.
21 Q. Can you tell us what those data -- what those figures are from
22 your memory?
23 A. I cannot tell you figures from memory. I have brought with me an
24 exhaustive report. I think the Tribunal has that at its disposal. A
25 report on this. It's on this DVD here and all the data on all the
Page 2151
1 citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina, including those of Serbian ethnicity are
2 here. This contains statistically very precise information by town, by
3 municipality. If you're interested in names, for each of those locations
4 we can find those names. For example, in the case of Visegrad, I have
5 submitted this to the Prosecution also. You can find precisely how many
6 citizens --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not going to allow you to pursue that.
8 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.
9 Q. Now, what was interesting to me, and --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. We attempted to uploaded it but I don't think it's up yet. Is it
13 up? I'm not going to actually ask you to refer to things but I want to
14 ask you some questions, is -- the commission for gathering facts on war
15 crimes in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina put out a bulletin. Was
16 that a monthly bulletin or was that a quarterly bulletin? What was it?
17 And what I'm referring to personally is the March 1993 number 3 bulletin.
18 I guess the first question is, you put out the bulletin; correct?
19 A. I was one of the people working on the bulletin.
20 Q. Because there's a series of essays or articles but I don't see
21 individual authors for each essay, so I'm assuming that it was a group
22 effort to put those articles together. Is that correct? Is that a yes?
23 A. The members of the professional team, individual members, were
24 authors of those texts. No one signed the texts. We discussed them
25 beforehand, and we stood by those texts as the editorial board.
Page 2152
1 Q. And of course these were -- these were journal articles that you
2 had done some considerable research on before you published them. I
3 mean, I'm assuming that you considered them good journalistic work or
4 reporting work. Is that fair?
5 A. More or less.
6 Q. And the reason I say this is because this is really one of the
7 first exposures that I've gotten to the war and how it began and it was
8 very interesting to me to see that there was a concerted beginning of the
9 war right around April of 1992 that happened in many regions of Bosnia
10 and also in Croatia. Is that true?
11 A. The war did not begin in Bosnia at the same time it began in
12 Croatia. In Croatia it began almost a year before it broke out in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. And it -- but it's my understanding that it happened in similar
15 way. The JNA moved in, the former JNA moved in, armed a considerable
16 amount of people and then left the conflict and then also did that in
17 places like Visegrad where the JNA came in for some time, disarmed the
18 Muslim population, asked them to come back, and then left to the local
19 Serbian detachments as well as members of the JNA that stayed there. You
20 shake your head. Tell me why.
21 A. That's your interpretation. My interpretation would be quite the
22 opposite of yours. I think it would take a long time to explain it to
23 you.
24 Q. Well, and I guess -- yeah, I don't want to debate it with you,
25 because I actually was -- it was just my impression of things, but I'm
Page 2153
1 not here to dispute you. I'm referring to it an article called
2 "Cooperation between the ex-JNA and the SDS terrorists," and it was in
3 that journal of March 1993. Do you agree with the principles in that --
4 in that article?
5 A. I don't remember any longer what that article says, but I know
6 very well what that cooperation was like. The research we did and the
7 documents we found explained with great precision and clarity how the
8 cooperation between the JNA and the SDS took place, how the JNA
9 participated in all this and held all the strategic moves in its hands
10 and used very skillfully what they referred to as paramilitary units to
11 achieve its strategic goals.
12 In my deep conviction the JNA, on the basis of everything I've
13 done so far, was a key player in all these events, and in fact the JNA
14 pulled all the strings. The research we did on human losses and
15 casualties, especially in Visegrad, indicate that murders of civilians
16 took place in April when the JNA was in full control of Visegrad, and
17 then in May -- on the 19th of May the JNA withdrew officially from
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina but all its assets and the command staff and weapons
19 stayed behind, and the crimes continued after the 19th of May and even
20 intensified in June.
21 Q. That's kind of what I was surmising is that there was a
22 considerable force of non-Bosnian Serb citizens that were sort of left
23 behind and put in different uniforms, maybe with different insignias in
24 the Visegrad theatre. Is that true?
25 A. In that period, April, May, and June, the dominant forces were
Page 2154
1 the forces of the JNA. When we speak of the JNA, you must understand
2 what the composition of that army was. Before Bosnia-Herzegovina was
3 recognised as an independent state, it was a unified army in which people
4 were organised. It was not a disorganised army. It had a strict chain
5 of command and a strict control and command system, and it had full
6 capacity to launch attacks and to kill, which is what it did, and also to
7 hold under its control all those it wanted held under control, who acted
8 outside the rules of that army. You're mentioning certain groups,
9 so-called groups, but it's my position that there were no groups that
10 were beyond the control of the JNA. They did not exist.
11 Q. Well, and -- and that's -- I'm referring to a paragraph that:
12 "In the case of the Vukovar open cooperation between the army and various
13 Chetnik units, Seselj's men, Arkan's men, White Eagles, and other Serbian
14 and Montenegrin and SDS units was neither hidden nor minimised." So it
15 was early on that White Eagles and these paramilitary units were
16 operating even in Vukovar. Is that true?
17 A. Yes. Those units acted openly and very aggressively both in
18 Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Evidently there was a strategy on the
19 part of the JNA for the conflict in the region, especially in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, to be represented as a conflict between
21 renegade units of the JNA and the legal forces of those two states. It
22 was a very precisely prepared activity to distract the attention of the
23 international community from the chief culprit, which was the JNA, and
24 all in-depth investigations show that all the units you have just
25 mentioned were under the command of the JNA. None of those units could
Page 2155
1 have done anything at all had the generals of the JNA opposed it.
2 Q. And going to another sentence that: "Just a small part of the
3 army went, i.e., withdrew, mainly soldiers and officers, but most of them
4 stayed under some other name and with different insignia together with
5 the whole war technique, weapons, and including armoured units and air
6 force."
7 So is that true?
8 A. From everything that was to happen, it was evident that only a
9 small part withdrew, but the staff, the funding system, everything
10 remained in place. I explained how they used so-called paramilitary
11 formations to continue their activity in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Nothing
12 actually changed. The hardware, the tanks, the weapons, it all stayed
13 behind.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you be concluding now, because we'll have
15 to break.
16 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I literally have five tabs which
17 probably would equal ten questions, but I think we should probably take
18 the break and that's all I have.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
23 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Just a few more questions, sir.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
Page 2156
1 MR. ALARID:
2 Q. Just a few more questions and we can get you on your way.
3 I'm still referring to the same article but kind of asking a
4 little bit separate principle is, would it be fair to say that these
5 paramilitary organisations such as the White Eagles travelled with the
6 JNA into different areas that the JNA infiltrated?
7 A. One could say that their name travelled. I'm not sure it was the
8 same people travelling to the same places, but the name went round the
9 region. Who the men were who were in those so-called paramilitary
10 formations, it's very hard to establish.
11 Q. Well, the reason I say that is there's been some testimony in
12 this trial from the Muslims that were rounded up into the stadium in
13 Visegrad and Colonel Jovanovic told them as a group that, "I control the
14 White Eagles." And so it appears to me that right then and there the JNA
15 acknowledged that the White Eagles were under their control, and I'm
16 wondering if your commission had any information related to that.
17 A. We had information. Some refugees arrived in Sarajevo and
18 testified about those groups, but all that we could conclude from the
19 information we had was that all those groups were more or less under the
20 control of the JNA. It was our assessment that had they wanted to, they
21 could have held those groups completely under control and prevented them
22 from committing the crimes they committed.
23 Q. And would it be true that in fact in Visegrad when the JNA left,
24 they left the White Eagles there to wreak havoc on the population?
25 A. I have already said when replying to your previous questions that
Page 2157
1 the JNA withdrew only officially, only in formal terms, but in fact it
2 did not withdraw. The commanders, the people under their command. For
3 example, I remember a high ranking Colonel in Rudno [phoen] near Visegrad
4 who was killed by some groups holding that area. The officer corps, the
5 logistics support, everything stayed behind. Nothing changed in essence.
6 Only the name changed. It was declared to be the army of Republika
7 Srpska, whereas in fact it was just a branch of the JNA.
8 Q. Now, it's my understanding according to the article also that the
9 JNA collaborated with the local SDS inner circles in each community to
10 facilitate the arming of the Serbian population. Is that true?
11 A. You have a number of documents showing how weapons were
12 distributed to the local Serbian population by the JNA. There are even
13 lists with the types of weapons distributed at certain locations. This
14 happened even before the beginning of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. In fact, it began as early as 1991. Isn't that true?
16 A. Yes, in part. It began until late 1991.
17 Q. And has there -- have you undergone any investigation into these
18 SDS inner circles that led each community as potential architects of the
19 overall destruction of Bosnia?
20 A. We're still doing that investigation. It's an ongoing process to
21 explain the context and all the social and other circumstances in which
22 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was prepared. This is ongoing research
23 which will continue for many, many years. Some pieces of the puzzle are
24 still missing. This Court is also working on this task. It's a
25 long-term task.
Page 2158
1 Q. Have you explored the war profiteers, the people that had very
2 little before the war, Serbian ethnic origin, and now they have a lot,
3 the company owners, hotel owners, property owners?
4 A. We didn't focus on that problem because we were focusing on war
5 crimes. The issue of war profiteers is something that the legal
6 authorities in all the areas in the region, including Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina, should deal with.
8 Q. Now, further on in the bulletin there's an article about the
9 victims of rape and how rape was an organised tool of the JNA to
10 subjugate the females of the population. Is that true?
11 A. We produced a number of reports concerning rape. There's a book
12 we worked on in 1999. In fact, we organised a large international
13 conference in Sarajevo dedicated to the victimisation of women and we're
14 still dealing with that problem. Not just rape but also other forms of
15 sexual violence and other kinds of violence against women. Yes, we have
16 dealt with that problem and will continue to do so.
17 Q. Well, and just looking at the article it appears that many, many
18 municipalities had these sort of systematic rape scenario going on in
19 them. Is that true?
20 A. That was something that happened in all parts of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially the area we refer to as Podrinje. It's
22 the area from Foca down the River Drina to Bijeljina, in Brcko, in Doboj,
23 in Sarajevo. All other Bosnia-Herzegovina in various locations one can
24 see that these things happened. We paid special attention to that, and,
25 yes, one can conclude it was done systematically.
Page 2159
1 Q. And systematically from the -- the Serbia and Montenegrin forces
2 that had come into Bosnia left by the JNA. Is that true?
3 A. It's only partly so. Unfortunately, citizens of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina also participated in these rapes. If you're asking
5 about Visegrad, it did happen there, too, and it was done both by
6 outsiders and, unfortunately, by local people as well, people from
7 Visegrad.
8 Q. And just referring to the article, it states that: "Local
9 Serbians did also take part although, although there are evidence that
10 some Bosnian Serbs are forced into it, backed by the Serbian Montenegrin
11 army." Is that true?
12 A. Yes. I can give you a number of examples where there were even
13 murders of Bosnian Serbs by the JNA because there were people forced to
14 commit war crimes under very odd circumstances. I can give you an
15 example from a project we're working on right now. We're trying to
16 investigate that side of the war where citizens of one ethnic group
17 helped those of another. For example, citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina of
18 Serb ethnicity who assisted Bosniaks, Croats who helped the Serbs, and so
19 on, Bosniaks who helped one or the other side. So we have a number of
20 examples that show that war is not just black and white. There are
21 examples of people who were courageous and who helped others. We found
22 several such examples in Visegrad. Visegrad is not an isolated place.
23 People did help each other, but unfortunately the crimes prevailed.
24 Q. And were there instances where one person might be forced to hurt
25 one person but attempt to help another because they were torn but
Page 2160
1 otherwise stuck in the war situation?
2 A. I think there's a very interesting case. I think the man's last
3 name is Pecikoza or something like that. We've just been investigating
4 that case. I think he was some sort of SDS official at the time, if I
5 recollect well, and he was playing a double role. In one role he was
6 helping others, and in the other role he was doing evil things. It's a
7 very confused story. He was evidently exposed to various kinds of
8 pressure. We've been trying to explore the circumstances under which he
9 was killed for helping citizens of other ethnic groups.
10 Q. Because I've seen -- there's been testimony here where people saw
11 him as a saviour of some people but then yet some other people had a
12 totally different opinion of him. And it's Stanko Pecikoza, if I recall?
13 A. Yes, you're right. You have contradictory information about one
14 and the same person. That's quite possible, yes, because the
15 circumstances were such that he played different roles, and what
16 prevailed at any point in time, it's hard to say. The man is not alive,
17 unfortunately. If he was, he might be able to tell us.
18 Q. Now, of course, you know, during this time there were other
19 attacks besides rape. The religion was attacked and the mosques were
20 destroyed. So there was also an attack on the Muslim population's entire
21 faith, if you will. Is that true?
22 A. Well, you see, religious buildings were destroyed. Those are
23 facts. Mosques in Visegrad were destroyed on someone's orders. The
24 victims could see this as an attack on their religious affiliation. Of
25 course one can view it like that, although I think personally that all
Page 2161
1 this was used in order to escalate the level of violence and to get
2 things to explode at a certain point in time. Religious and ethnic
3 feelings were manipulated during the war.
4 Q. So the architects of the whole process played on very personal
5 and -- and religious things about the general population in order to
6 force them to leave the area. Is that fair?
7 A. Yes, I share that standpoint.
8 Q. But otherwise they really just wanted the land and to take it
9 away and make sure these people moved away and didn't come back. Isn't
10 that fair?
11 A. Yes, more or less. The regime that instigated the conflict was a
12 regime of fighting for power, a brutal power, using all possible methods
13 to expand their power. The regime, and you know what regime that was.
14 The man who was here unfortunately died before we could see the end of
15 the trial, but he played on people's feelings in a strategic way. He
16 wanted to portray this as an ethnic or religious war, and this
17 predominated especially in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was a multi-ethnic
18 and multi-faith community where -- where causing this kind of fire could
19 lead to very negative consequences.
20 Q. Because the rank-and-file soldiers were generally simpler people.
21 They didn't have a lot of knowledge of these grander schemes but really
22 could only be manipulated on very simple levels of religion and
23 nationalism. Would that be fair?
24 A. Yes, more or less that's how it was. The courts judge according
25 to the principle of individual responsibility, and that's something one
Page 2162
1 has to respect. Of course everyone's individual responsibility has to be
2 proved and an appropriate judgement handed down, but no individual acts
3 outside the environment he lives in. The government, the authorities
4 from whom he receives orders, this is a huge moral and ethnic question
5 both in theory and in practice and has been for over 60 years after World
6 War II. Is an individual just someone who implements the orders of
7 others or is he a murderer? I think that people act in a certain social
8 environment, and sometimes they can become the extended arm of the force
9 of the government or the state even if they don't really wish to do the
10 things they are doing. They do things they would never do in other
11 circumstances.
12 Q. Thank you. Just a couple more questions, actually. One of the
13 sections is you have a section on witnesses where testimonials from
14 victims of around Bosnia are there, and I notice in this particular
15 journal there are two statements from Visegrad, one of -- and I believe
16 both have already testified here in the Tribunal, from reading the
17 statements in the journal. How did you collect these, and are you still
18 in possession of these actual statements?
19 A. Well, at the beginning of my testimony I explained that we had a
20 very precise methodology of work with witnesses. Of course if
21 circumstances allowed, the professional part of the team tried to contact
22 directly people who were either victims themselves or who were
23 eyewitnesses and could testify to certain events. Statements concerning
24 rapes were always taken in such a way as to protect the identity of the
25 victim while showing in public that this did happen, because we were
Page 2163
1 trying to encourage the victims to speak out.
2 I assume that these -- no, actually, I'm absolutely sure that
3 those statements are still in our archives, and they are at the disposal
4 of prosecutors, whether those of the ICTY or of the domestic courts.
5 Q. And do you catalogue them by region such as Visegrad or Gorazde
6 or other areas?
7 A. The system of processing information is such that in professional
8 terms a relational database is established with information on the
9 victim, the location, the kind of event that happened, the kind of
10 incident. So searching through certain locations, if that's your -- the
11 terms of your search, you can reconstruct what happened in a certain
12 area. You can reconstruct the geographical distribution of crimes in
13 various towns, including Visegrad, of course.
14 Q. Now, were these statements taken by the MUP or were these taken
15 by you separately? Were they police statements that you then archived,
16 the police statement, or is there a police statement and also one to your
17 association?
18 A. The statements we took directly is something we used, and we also
19 used statements taken by other institutions. The decision to establish
20 the commission when it was made, all government bodies were told to
21 cooperate with it, so that some material was delivered to us but some, we
22 collected ourselves. We were independent, and even in the case of police
23 reports and statements taken by the police we wanted to check those
24 because the methods used by the police were quite different from our own.
25 So we used this only as input. We didn't take it for granted anything
Page 2164
1 that the police sent us.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. ALARID: No further questions, Your Honour, and I would like
4 to introduce into evidence 1D10-2707, which is the March 1993 bulletin of
5 the commission for gathering facts on war crimes for the Republic of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D53, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Friedman, any re-examination?
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: No redirect, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
12 you for giving it, and you may now leave.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next witness is not a protected
17 witness so I'll say his name. It's Islam Kustura. Your Honour, over the
18 break it was brought to my attention that we have fallen short of our
19 disclosure obligations with respect to this witness. I have informed
20 Mr. Cepic and Mr. Alarid over the break as soon as I learned the
21 information and I want to make the Chamber aware of how we have fallen
22 short.
23 While we have provided all the statements that will we were aware
24 of, including the ICTY statements, in a recent computer search of all of
25 our documents in our document collection, some other documents were
Page 2165
1 revealed and unfortunately we did not review them in the time that we
2 should have and they are just being discovered today. So I want to bring
3 them to the Court's attention. I think they are small, very short
4 documents, and hopefully will not be too disruptive to the trial, but the
5 first document is a one and a half page addendum to a statement that
6 this -- that this witness gave in 2003 to Bosnian authorities. We have
7 provided both the original and the English translation of that document.
8 The next document is a document that we view is Rule 68. It's
9 three and a half page witness statement of another witness that alleges
10 that no mistreatment occurred in Uzamnica. We provided the original
11 document and we hope to have a translation by the end of the day.
12 The third document is a one and a half page witness statement of
13 another witness stating that this particular witness was involved in the
14 making of chemical weapons. It's obviously Rule 68 material and that has
15 been disclosed today in the original language. We are hoping to secure a
16 translation of that have by the end of the day.
17 The fourth document is six lines listing this particular witness
18 as an accused prisoner on -- it appears on the letterhead of Republika
19 Srpska, Visegrad, I believe the Ministry of Interior.
20 And the last document, Your Honour, is a one-page document. I
21 don't believe it falls either under Rule 66 or Rule 68 but it is a
22 statement that this witness gave to RS authorities with respect to other
23 people regarding their activities in preparing explosive devices. So it
24 has nothing to do with his testimony but it would be our practice or my
25 practice to disclose that.
Page 2166
1 So I apologise to Defence counsel and to the Court for -- for
2 this omission. It's my hope that -- it's a total of seven pages, that if
3 we are able to produce the translations to Defence counsel this evening
4 that hopefully they feel that they -- tomorrow morning they'd be able to
5 conclude their cross-examination. If not, if the Chamber believes
6 fairness requires us to recall this witness for cross-examination at a
7 later stage, we would of course endeavour to do that.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, as much as the Chamber admires the
12 frankness with which you confess these omissions, we have to say that
13 they're happening all too frequently, and we must ask you to take care to
14 see that disclosures are made in a timely manner as required by the
15 Rules.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I will review the procedures and make
17 corrections, and again I do apologise to the Chamber.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, I want to deal, before the witness comes
19 in, with the matter raised by Mr. Cepic, and Ms. Marcus is involved in
20 that.
21 Ms. Marcus, have you been brought up-to-date? What can you tell
22 us about this second updated report which is said to have discrepancies?
23 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: From the first.
25 MS. MARCUS: Thank you very much. Your Honours, we filed on the
Page 2167
1 9th of September a motion to substitute Dr. Tabeau's updated report for
2 her old report. This was a few days after we received the updated report
3 from Dr. Tabeau.
4 In that motion we explained that none of Dr. Tabeau's overall
5 conclusions have changed but that some numerical and statistical
6 calculations had been updated. Your Honours, the nature of Dr. Tabeau's
7 work is that it is based upon databases and sources which are constantly
8 being updated and populated. For example, more bodies have been exhumed
9 and identified today than one year ago and so on.
10 Annex a to that September 9th motion contains a list outlining
11 each and every change in the expert report for ease of reference and to
12 facilitate the comparison exercise which the Defence and the Chamber may
13 wish to undertake. Annex B was the updated expert report. Therefore the
14 issue of the updated expert report is a matter which we were seeking to
15 deal with in written pleadings.
16 My understanding is that the Defence team for Milan Lukic filed a
17 response, the deadline is today, but that the Defence team for Sredoje
18 Lukic did not file a response.
19 On this matter, Your Honours, in relation to Milan Lukic's
20 assertion in -- in their response that the evidence of Dr. Tabeau is
21 irrelevant and untimely, as the Trial Chamber has already determined that
22 matter on the 23rd of July, 2008, that she qualifies as an expert and
23 that her evidence is relevant and probative, I submit that this -- this
24 submission by the Defence of Milan Lukic is untimely. And to my
25 knowledge, the Defence did not file -- neither Defence team filed a
Page 2168
1 motion for certification to appeal the decision of the 23rd of July and
2 therefore I submit that any questions the Defence may have in relation to
3 this can properly be put to Dr. Tabeau during cross-examination.
4 Lastly, Your Honours, with respect to the charts which we have
5 discussed numerous times, as I said in my submissions yesterday, it would
6 take an inordinate amount of time for the Prosecution to ask Dr. Tabeau
7 victim by victim to look into her databases, use her analytical expertise
8 and tell us what her databases reflect in terms of these individuals'
9 status as missing persons.
10 Now, Dr. Tabeau's expert report contains an annex which is an
11 excerpt of the ICRC missing persons database so that excerpt from the
12 ICRC database is contained in Dr. Tabeau's report but the charts were
13 meant to facilitate the presentation of that evidence to the Chamber and
14 in the interests of efficiency and time saving. Therefore, Dr. Tabeau
15 has access to these resources. She was able to provide those answers in
16 the chart form which I submit was merely to facilitate the process.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: How big is Annex A that sets out the
19 discrepancies?
20 MS. MARCUS: Just a moment, Your Honour. I will check exactly.
21 Three pages and three lines. That's three sides of a page and plus an
22 additional three lines.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but on Monday morning, and my
Page 2169
1 learned friend did confirm during the examination yesterday, we received
2 new exhibit, completely now exhibits, and that is the main problem. We
3 received the list which OTP expert filed, as I understood, during the
4 weekend and during previous period with the new list which are completely
5 different than the previous annexes with -- related to missing persons.
6 And I --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: The annex that sets out the discrepancies is
8 just three pages, though, three and a half pages.
9 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I have to check all those lists. I
10 received yesterday more than couple hundred names on two list, which are
11 completely different than the previous lists.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I submit there appears to be some
13 confusion. The charts, again, which I'm calling charts so that we can
14 differentiate it maybe from lists, one chart is the names of the victims
15 as named in the indictment. The other chart is additional names. These
16 charts were prepared, as I said, by Dr. Tabeau over the weekend in
17 anticipation of her testimony as a demonstrative exhibit to facilitate
18 asking her what her databases reflect in terms of the -- the reports of
19 those people going missing.
20 Now, we can use time in court and compare each name to the list,
21 but that is exactly why I tried to find a method, and Dr. Tabeau came up
22 with a method herself of presenting the results of that evidence and that
23 was indeed done over the weekend.
24 Your Honours, just -- we are perfectly happy -- as Mr. Groome
25 said yesterday, we are perfectly happy, if need be, to continue with
Page 2170
1 Dr. Tabeau now and if ever she needs to be called back for any reason,
2 she is available at the convenience of the Chamber at any time.
3 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. CEPIC: Yes, with your leave. Just to add something. This
6 is one of the main discrepancies. The base for the previous report was
7 the Annex A which was the report from the Red Cross organisation about
8 the missing persons. Now we had a list from indictment, and that caused
9 many, many discrepancies between all the other discrepancies. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have to stop this now --
11 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and I'll give a ruling.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, the Chamber is not with you on this
15 one. We don't see that you will suffer any -- any real prejudice. We
16 expect you to cross-examine tomorrow, and should it be necessary to
17 recall Dr. Tabeau, then as the Prosecution has indicated, she is
18 available.
19 Let the witness be brought in.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 WITNESS: ISLAM KUSTURA
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Page 2171
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. And you may begin, Ms. Marcus.
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
4 Q. Mr. Witness, can you hear me clearly?
5 A. Yes. I can't hear.
6 Q. Perhaps the court usher could help the witness in increasing the
7 volume of the headphones.
8 Mr. Witness, could you please state your full name.
9 A. Yes, go ahead. Kustura, Islam.
10 Q. What is your date of birth?
11 A. 1930.
12 Q. Can you give us the precise date of your birth, please, the date
13 and the month?
14 A. The 15th of March.
15 Q. In which municipality were you born?
16 A. In Visegrad.
17 Q. What is your ethnicity?
18 A. Muslim.
19 Q. Before the war what work did you do?
20 A. I was a farmer.
21 Q. Are you married?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you have any children?
24 A. I had seven, but two of my sons were killed.
25 Q. Do you have any grandchildren?
Page 2172
1 A. Yes, and grandchildren.
2 Q. Mr. Kustura, how is your vision? Do you see well?
3 A. No, not really.
4 Q. Do you know what the diagnosis is, what is the reason for the
5 poor vision?
6 A. I have a cataract. That's what they say.
7 Q. Is that affecting one eye or both eyes?
8 A. Both.
9 Q. Since when have you had these problems with your eyes?
10 A. Since last autumn.
11 Q. Mr. Kustura, do you recall where you were at the end of May of
12 1992?
13 A. 1992, in Visegrad, in the camp.
14 Q. Before you were in the camp, months before that, do you recall
15 where you were in May?
16 A. I was at home. I was making sure everything was all right back
17 home. I was at home, and I was hiding in the woods.
18 Q. What were you doing while you were hiding in the woods?
19 A. We were running from the Chetniks.
20 Q. How many men and women were with you in your hiding place in the
21 woods?
22 A. Seven or eight women and seven or eight men.
23 Q. How did you manage to protect yourselves?
24 A. We made tents. We had tarpaulin that we used to make tents, so
25 we hid there.
Page 2173
1 Q. Were any of your group armed?
2 A. Yes. My son and a man named Ahmed. They were both killed.
3 Q. Can you tell us, please, the name of your son.
4 A. Ibrahim Kustura.
5 Q. And you mentioned a man named Ahmed. Can you tell us his family
6 name, his surname?
7 A. Mutapcic, Ahmed. He was a neighbour of ours.
8 Q. Did there come a time when you left the woods and went back to
9 your house?
10 A. We spent the whole summer hiding in the woods until autumn. I
11 think the 3rd of October, or 3rd of November. We were hiding in the
12 woods. And then they caught us in the house.
13 Q. Yes. I'd like to talk about that, when they caught you in the
14 house, as you say. Who was it who caught you in the house?
15 A. Vukasinovic, Nedjo Vukasinovic. And there was also Milko
16 Bugarin. That's what they called him. He was a teacher. And there was
17 another man who came by. He was walking down a road, and then I asked
18 Nedjo and then he said that is a man from Bosanska Jagodina, yeah, him,
19 too, but I can't remember the name.
20 Q. Mr. Kustura, I'm going to interrupt you. We're going to come
21 back to what you were just talking about, but I'd like to continue
22 with -- with what happened before the incident you are now describing.
23 There was an incident involving your son. He'd like to discuss that
24 incident first. Can you tell us what happened to your son?
25 A. My son came that morning, early that morning. My mother was at
Page 2174
1 home, and she was preparing some food. They came to get their meals, and
2 they were killed right there.
3 Q. Can you describe the incident during which your son was killed?
4 A. Serb soldiers arrived in the village. They took us prisoners in
5 the village right next to my house and marched us to a creek. They told
6 the women to go to Dobrun and left the men there. So we were sitting
7 there when a Serb soldier stood up and told Ahmed, "You follow me. I
8 want to interrogate you." So Ahmed left, and then another man stood up
9 and told my Ibrahim, "You, too, get up. I will interrogate you." And
10 they took them as far as the creek and they were killed there. We heard
11 rifle shots.
12 Q. Mr. Kustura --
13 A. And later --
14 Q. Let's just take it step-by-step. Do you know who any of these
15 Serb soldiers you're referring to? Do you know any of their names?
16 A. I do. Dragan Savic, who is the man who took my Ibro away. I
17 don't know the others. It was all mixed up.
18 Q. How do you know that Dragan Savic was the one who took your Ibro
19 away?
20 A. I know, because I had been in the camp at Visegrad, and then at
21 one point a soldier came and said, "Kustura, Dragan Savic wants to see
22 you." So I went there, and he beat me and he said, "Tell us who killed
23 your son. Tell us who killed your son." I wasn't able to admit -- I
24 didn't admit this to anyone, but I do know that later that evening when
25 we left, when the guard took me along, he said, "Dragan Savic, fuck him,
Page 2175
1 came here to look for something," or rather vaguer.
2 Q. Mr. Kustura, did you see your son actually being killed?
3 A. No. It was over near the creek. How could I possibly see?
4 Q. Did you see his body after he was killed?
5 A. Yes, we did, later when Salko, my neighbour and I, came running,
6 we saw the soldiers and both the bodies were in the creek, and you could
7 see body of Ibrahim. It wasn't entirely submerged. The head was still
8 above the surface. And then after eight or ten days, and we hadn't been
9 allowed to bury the bodies, so before daybreak one day we went there. We
10 got the bodies, and we gave the bodies a burial.
11 Q. Do you recall the date on which your son was killed?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly.
13 Q. Earlier you mentioned that you were captured on the 3rd of
14 October or the 3rd of November. You said you weren't sure of the date.
15 Was your son killed before that or after that?
16 A. The 3rd. Before. Before.
17 Q. Now, I'd like to take you back to what you started to tell us
18 about before I interrupted you to speak about your son. You told us that
19 you were caught in your house, and you said you think it was the 3rd of
20 October or the 3rd of November, and you mentioned some names of some
21 individuals who came to that house. I'd like to return to that.
22 Could you tell us what those people who came to your house --
23 what they said to you?
24 A. Dragan Pejovic was there. He was the one guarding my son.
25 Dragan Pejovic, a neighbour of mine from the area. And they kept saying,
Page 2176
1 "Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid." But then they got as far as the
2 creek, and what happened there was something entirely different.
3 Q. Now, let's go back to the 3rd of October or the 3rd of November,
4 as you said earlier.
5 A. The 3rd of October, I think that was.
6 Q. Can you tell us what happened on that day?
7 A. What happened. They killed them. We fled to the woods, and we
8 were hiding in the woods with a tarp and the tents. There were women
9 there and men too.
10 Q. Mr. Kustura, a little bit earlier you mentioned a name. The name
11 you mentioned was Vukasinovic, Nedjo Vukasinovic.
12 A. Nedjo Vukasinovic used to be a good friend of mine before the
13 war, and maybe he was the one who helped save us.
14 Q. You told us that he, among others, caught you in the house.
15 A. Caught us, yes. Yes, that's right. It was him. He caught us.
16 He said, "Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. We won't harm you." And
17 then Nedjo gave me a pack of cigarettes. I lit up. And Salko got some
18 cigarettes too. And then we left for Visegrad. He drove us in a car to
19 Visegrad, and then they went to the command to report, for Nedjo to
20 report.
21 Q. When you say "command," can you tell us where precisely they took
22 you?
23 A. This was the school in Visegrad.
24 Q. Can you tell us the name of the school?
25 A. Hasan Veletovac. I think that's what it was.
Page 2177
1 Q. And where were you taken from the school?
2 A. We didn't even go inside the school. We stayed by the car. The
3 police arrived and said, "Get back in the car. You're going back home
4 this evening." And they drove us straight to Uzamnica, to the camp
5 there. We found some children there in the camp. We thought at first
6 they were Serbian children, but in fact they were Muslim children. There
7 was a woman who had been taken prisoner with two children.
8 Q. Mr. Kustura, you mentioned before you got to Uzamnica that you
9 encountered some police who told you to get into the car. Do you know
10 any of these police officers by name?
11 A. No, I don't know them.
12 Q. How do you know that they were police?
13 A. By their uniforms.
14 Q. Can you tell us the colour of the uniforms?
15 A. Blue.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned Uzamnica. Can you tell us what Uzamnica was?
17 What kind of a location was this?
18 A. It was a barracks, and there were military depots there, 27
19 hangars with ammunition, but all that was taken off to Serbia.
20 Q. How many barracks were there at Uzamnica?
21 A. Only one.
22 Q. Where were your wife and mother taken?
23 A. That evening when it got dark they separated us off. The men
24 went to one hangar and the women to another. There were some other men
25 there in the hangar, but we didn't see them. They just shoved me inside,
Page 2178
1 and afterwards I got to know the men inside.
2 Q. Mr. Kustura, were you in regular contact with your wife and
3 mother?
4 A. No. No. I didn't see them for eight or ten days at a time.
5 Q. Were you free to move about?
6 A. No, God forbid.
7 Q. Why not? What was it which prevented you from moving about?
8 A. About? The Chetniks wouldn't let us. The door was always
9 closed.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, could we go, please, into private
11 session for the next few questions.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 [Private session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2179
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2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 MS. MARCUS:
20 Q. Mr. Kustura, can you describe the conditions in Uzamnica?
21 A. You know what it was like? We lay down on the concrete floor.
22 We got up from the concrete floor. If we had any clothes with us, we put
23 them on. If we didn't, we didn't. It was all just concrete.
24 Q. What was the food like?
25 A. It was terrible. They would bring us just a little bowl of soup
Page 2180
1 for two of us to share.
2 Q. What were the bathroom facilities like?
3 A. We didn't have any at all. There were two black buckets. We
4 used one to pass water and the other one to bring water for us to wash
5 in.
6 Q. Was there heat in the winter?
7 A. God forbid. Throughout the winter someone would bring some
8 paper, and then the next day the soldier would come and swear at him
9 right away.
10 Q. Was the room you were staying in, the hangar, was it closed or
11 open to the air?
12 A. It was closed. There was an iron door.
13 Q. Who were the guards at Uzamnica? Did you know any of them?
14 A. There was Mico Spasojevic. He was the guard. But there were
15 others, lots of others. I used to know their names, but I've forgotten
16 now.
17 Q. Were there always the same guards?
18 A. Yes, always the same ones except that two were sent off to the
19 front line. What was his name? He beat me up once.
20 Q. Do you recall how many guards --
21 A. I think it was Ilija Sestric.
22 Q. Do you recall how many guards you saw?
23 A. There were seven or eight sometimes and just two or three at
24 other times.
25 Q. Who was the commander of the guards?
Page 2181
1 A. Mico Spasojevic.
2 Q. Do you know if he was the commander of all of Uzamnica?
3 A. No. No, just of the guards. Just the guards.
4 Q. Did you ever suffer any direct mistreatment at the hands of the
5 guards?
6 A. Mico Spasojevic hit us on two occasions. He did. The others
7 didn't.
8 Q. And how did he beat you on those occasions?
9 A. You know how? He made himself a kind of whip, and then he tied a
10 piece of iron to the end, a piece of lead and he beat us with that.
11 Q. Did you ever suffer any mistreatment at the hands of others apart
12 from the guards?
13 A. Only Milan Lukic and Sredoje, and they would bring company.
14 Q. Please describe to us the first time you saw Milan Lukic.
15 A. I saw him several days after my arrival. He came right away.
16 Q. How do you know that this was Milan Lukic?
17 A. They told me. I didn't know him, but they told me, the others.
18 Q. Did you know Milan Lukic from before?
19 A. I didn't know him, but I did know Sredoje.
20 Q. How did you know Sredoje from before?
21 A. He was in the police.
22 Q. The first time you saw Milan Lukic in Uzamnica, what did he do?
23 A. You know what he did? All the worst. He hit us, beat us. He
24 did all sorts of things.
25 Q. With what did he beat you?
Page 2182
1 A. First he would run at us like the priest's horse and kick us. He
2 kicked us all, and then people fell over, and then afterwards he would
3 use whatever he wanted, a rifle, his fists, his -- he would kick us. He
4 used everything.
5 Q. Did you hear him say anything while he was beating you?
6 A. He didn't say why he was beating us. He would just say, "Hit the
7 balija."
8 Q. Was anyone else present during this first time you were beaten?
9 A. He beat everyone, all of us in turn, and he didn't stop until
10 he'd beaten up everybody.
11 Q. Was there anybody with Milan Lukic during this incident?
12 A. Sredoje was with him always.
13 Q. Did Sredoje --
14 A. Sometimes there would be three or four carloads coming to
15 Uzamnica and they would beat us as well.
16 Q. With regards to Sredoje, did Sredoje do anything to you?
17 A. Yes, together with Milan, everything.
18 Q. As a result of that beating did you suffer any injuries?
19 A. Of course I did. When I arrived in Sarajevo, I was all black and
20 blue. My arms were broken. My chest, my back were all black. When I
21 got to Sarajevo an ambulance arrived, and they said I should be X-rayed,
22 and when they X-rayed me I had things on my ribs, on my back, everywhere
23 like bulges. And then there was a man called Prepajac [phoen]. He took
24 the X-rays. And there was a lady doctor and I said, "what's this on my
25 back," and she said, "Grandfather, you were beaten up a long time ago. I
Page 2183
1 don't know what happened to you," and I said -- or, rather, she thought I
2 had fallen down and hurt myself and I said, "no, it's the Chetniks who
3 beat me up," and then Ahmet arrived and I --
4 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You asked him what Sredoje did, but he didn't
6 really tell you.
7 MS. MARCUS: Yes. I'm going back to that, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Kustura, I asked you before, as His Honour has said, what did
11 Sredoje do, and you said, "Yes, together with Milan, everything."
12 A. He beat me just as Milan did.
13 Q. Can you describe specifically what Sredoje did to you?
14 A. Well, he hit me just like Milan did.
15 Q. What did he use to hit you?
16 A. First he kicked me, and then later with a rifle, and then they
17 would bring stakes, stakes and hit us with those.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Made of what? What were the stakes made of?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wood.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: How big were they?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A metre and a half or two.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
23 MS. MARCUS:
24 Q. Mr. Kustura, after the first beating what condition were you in
25 at that time? Rather than describing later in Sarajevo, at that time,
Page 2184
1 after the first beating that you described, what was your physical
2 condition?
3 A. Terrible. I was all broken, all beaten up. I was in a terrible
4 state.
5 Q. Were you able to move around after that first beating?
6 A. No, I wasn't, no. And after the second one I had to lie down for
7 18 days.
8 Q. Tell it us about the second one. What are you referring to the
9 second time?
10 A. You know what? They broke me. They smashed me. I couldn't
11 move. I laid down on that concrete for 18 days.
12 Q. Who was it who caused you the injuries which resulted in you
13 being immobile for 18 days?
14 A. Milan.
15 Q. Can you describe to us the incident?
16 A. Of course I can describe it. They beat you for as long as they
17 hear that you're breathing.
18 Q. When you say "they," could you tell us specifically who it was
19 who beat you?
20 A. I beg your pardon?
21 Q. You just said, "They beat you for as long as they hear that
22 you're breathing." Could you tell us who "they" is? Who did this?
23 A. Milan and Sredoje, and sometimes they would bring companions.
24 Q. How often would you say you saw Milan Lukic in Uzamnica?
25 A. I saw him all the time until he went off to get a shop at
Page 2185
1 Kalemegdan, and when he came back from Belgrade he said, "Will you give
2 it to me," and this man said, "I will, Milan, just don't beat me any
3 more." And Milan went to Kalemegdan. That Serb didn't give him the
4 shop, and Milan took a pistol and killed the Serb and he lay there in
5 Belgrade five or six months [Realtime transcript omitted "five or six
6 months"], maybe, and we were in Dobrun and his sister welcomed Milan
7 Lukic from Belgrade from prison. That's how it was and we got all
8 excited what would happen now.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: Just want to intervene in transcript. I think we
11 haven't got translated how long Milan remained in custody in Belgrade,
12 and I think that the witness answered on that.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know it. Might have been
14 four or five months that he stayed there in Belgrade.
15 MS. MARCUS: Perhaps this is a matter for cross-examination.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it would be.
17 MR. IVETIC: It's a matter of the transcript, Your Honour.
18 MR. CEPIC: As my learned friend added, it is a matter of
19 transcript because this witness mentioned it in his examination but
20 interpreters couldn't catch that part, so thank you very much.
21 MS. MARCUS: Can I continue, Your Honours?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me be clear, Mr. Cepic. What do you say the
23 transcript is missing something?
24 MR. CEPIC: How long a witness said that Milan Lukic remained in
25 Belgrade prison for five months.
Page 2186
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 MR. CEPIC: We can listen to tape. And my intervention was this
3 is not the part in transcript. It's not recorded in transcript.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not in the transcript.
5 MR. CEPIC: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't talk about that at all.
7 MR. CEPIC: We can check, listening by the tape.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask the interpreters whether the
9 witness --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreters find it very
11 difficult to understand the witness, and there are some parts which the
12 interpreter did not hear properly or understand.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll proceed. If you wish to make an issue of
14 it in cross-examination you can.
15 MR. CEPIC: Okay, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Just to put out any blame on
18 me, you know, and any doubt, because I'm so confident that I heard that.
19 Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm not questioning your integrity at all.
21 MS. MARCUS:
22 Q. Mr. Kustura, how often did Milan Lukic mistreat you?
23 A. Well, if it wasn't every day it was every other day, and he would
24 bring two or three cars with people and Sredoje, and they would beat
25 people.
Page 2187
1 Q. How often would you say Sredoje would beat you?
2 A. Well, the same as Milan. The same.
3 Q. Did you ever see Milan Lukic come alone to Uzamnica?
4 A. No, he never came alone.
5 Q. Do you recall what Milan Lukic was wearing usually when he came
6 to Uzamnica?
7 A. A military uniform. That's what he wore.
8 Q. Do you recall what Sredoje Lukic was wearing when he came to
9 Uzamnica?
10 A. Both of them, both of them.
11 Q. Did you ever see either of them dressed any differently?
12 A. No, I never did. Only military uniforms.
13 Q. Was Milan Lukic usually carrying anything when he came to
14 Uzamnica?
15 A. What?
16 Q. Was Milan Lukic carrying anything in his hands when he came to
17 Uzamnica?
18 A. Once he brought a stake. I'm mentioning the stake again. And he
19 beat us with that stake.
20 Q. Apart from the stake, did they carry any other weapons?
21 A. Yes. They always came with weapons. He wouldn't go around
22 without weapons.
23 Q. Did you see Sredoje Lukic carrying anything when he came to
24 Uzamnica?
25 A. No, I didn't. Just his hands and his submachine-gun which he
Page 2188
1 carried.
2 Q. Mr. Kustura, how long were you detained in Uzamnica?
3 A. Three years and ten days.
4 Q. Can you describe the interaction between Milan Lukic and the
5 Uzamnica guards?
6 A. Milan, when he came, if the door was closed, if the guard had
7 closed the door and gone off somewhere, Milan would open the lock and by
8 the time the guard came back he would have beaten us all.
9 MS. MARCUS: Could we go into private session for the next few
10 questions, please.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2189
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3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 "Come on, (redacted) he said, "Let's go there and see if (redacted) is
16 still alive," and then we went there and (redacted) was still slightly alive
17 so we pulled him out of the puddle and carried him back into the hangar.
18 Q. Can you tell us -- you've used two names. One is (redacted) The
19 other is (redacted) Is that the same person?
20 A. Yes, yes. The same person. He is short. That's why we called
21 him (redacted) which is diminutive.
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2190
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2190-2193 redacted. Private session.
12
13
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Page 2194
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
9 MS. MARCUS:
10 Q. Mr. Kustura, during your detention did you ever directly see any
11 prisoners being taken out by Milan Lukic?
12 A. I saw him hundreds of times beat us, all of us. He was a tall
13 man. He would come to the door and then he would kick someone and people
14 fell down and he would go on beating them.
15 Q. Did you ever witness Milan Lukic take anyone away who never
16 returned again?
17 MR. ALARID: Objection, leading.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Agreed. Don't answer the question.
19 You have to reformulate it.
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. Mr. Kustura, did you ever see with your own eyes Milan Lukic take
22 anybody away?
23 MR. ALARID: Same objection, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I allow that question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nermin and the man from Rogatica.
Page 2195
1 I saw him take them away.
2 MS. MARCUS:
3 Q. Who took them away?
4 A. Milan and Sredoje.
5 Q. Did you ever witness any killings during the time you were in
6 Uzamnica?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can ask him whether he saw -- he ever saw
9 them again, they having been taken away. That's not objectionable.
10 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they never returned.
12 MS. MARCUS:
13 Q. Mr. Kustura, what happened to your mother?
14 A. She died in the camp because of all the suffering. She just
15 died. There you go. She had to watch what they were doing to us. She
16 had to listen to all the stories about the hangar and everything. She
17 just had to die. She had no choice.
18 Q. Were you able to bury her?
19 A. Other camp inmates went and buried her body somewhere. I still
20 don't know where it was that they buried her, nor do I have anyone to
21 ask. It was all blown apart, no inmates remaining, and I simply have no
22 way of knowing where she was buried.
23 Q. What happened to your wife?
24 A. My wife died in Sarajevo after we had left the camp.
25 Q. Were you ever given any medical treatment for any of the injuries
Page 2196
1 you suffered as a result of the beatings?
2 A. Yes. Yes, always. They would always take me. My
3 daughters-in-law would take me to see a doctor that was at the hospital
4 nearby and my daughter-in-law took me there, and that's where I received
5 treatment.
6 Q. Mr. Kustura, during the time that you were imprisoned in
7 Uzamnica, were you given any medical care?
8 A. Perish the thought. Never. Who could possibly give me medical
9 care, perhaps the same people who were beating me up and killing me. Do
10 you think they would have given me any medical care?
11 Q. Did the Red Cross ever visit Uzamnica?
12 A. Five times, six perhaps. They came, but the Serbs never allowed
13 them to enter the camp. The one time they did they said they were
14 telling the Red Cross that we were just having a Sunday walkabout, that
15 nobody had to do anything at all. There were two military toilets there,
16 and they said, "This is the one that they use," but actually we were
17 using buckets and not those facilities.
18 Q. How did you ultimately manage to get out of the detention centre?
19 A. There was an exchange, all for all. They released Serbs. They
20 released Muslims. Depending on where you were from. They sent us to
21 Sarajevo, and the Serbs probably to their own areas.
22 Q. Was your wife released with you?
23 A. She was, yes. At the same time. There were other women there,
24 too. They were all released.
25 Q. Do you recall the date of your release?
Page 2197
1 A. The 10th of December.
2 Q. Do you recall what year that was?
3 A. 1994, I think.
4 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Marcus.
6 Mr. Alarid.
7 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kustura.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Do you recall giving statements before in this case, and do you
12 recall giving a statement in November of 1994?
13 A. Yes. I've lost track. I can't remember all of them, can I?
14 Q. Well, and the reason I say that is you just testified you got out
15 of the prison in December 1994, and it seems that you gave the statement
16 a month before that. So I'm clarifying that. And so maybe the better
17 question is, isn't it true you got out of Uzamnica October of 1994
18 instead of December?
19 A. Might be. That just might be. I forget.
20 Q. And before October of 1994, when was the last time you believe
21 you saw Milan Lukic?
22 A. Well, we didn't see him for quite a long time because he was over
23 in Belgrade in the prison, so we didn't see him. Then they said he'd
24 come back as soon as he was back from that prison, and then once he came
25 back with the guards' commander, and he said, "Is there anything you
Page 2198
1 need, coffee, brandy, sugar? Milan is your man. I'll bring you
2 everything." And nobody dared speak a word. And I was just standing
3 there and I said, "Milan, bring us all you can. We need everything." So
4 he left and he never returned. And we were exchanged soon, fortunately.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Dieckmann.
6 MR. DIECKMANN: Your Honours, just for clarification, my learned
7 friend Mr. Alarid did not mention that he's the counsel for Mr. Milan
8 Lukic, just for clarification for the record.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's noted.
10 MR. DIECKMANN: Thank you.
11 MR. ALARID:
12 Q. And you indicate that he came there sometime before you were
13 released in the exchange. Can you tell us how long before?
14 A. Ten days, eight or ten days.
15 Q. And before that, when was the last time you had seen --
16 A. The last time was then, when he came to the hangar to ask if we
17 needed anything so he could bring it.
18 Q. And on that occasion is it fair that he did not hurt anybody that
19 you saw?
20 A. No, no. No, he didn't, not then. He was as meek as a lamb that
21 time he came. We just stood up, as we always did, lined up, and he said,
22 "Sit down. Sit down. Stay where you are." That's how it happened.
23 Q. And before that time you indicated that you -- before that time
24 you indicated that you believed he was in prison in Belgrade, and so how
25 much further earlier had you seen him last?
Page 2199
1 A. I didn't see him again after he'd left and went to that prison in
2 Belgrade. I never saw him again after that.
3 Q. And when do you believe he went to that prison in Belgrade, if
4 you can tell us?
5 A. There was that man who had owned two shops at Kalemegdan and
6 there were Serbs working there, so Milan went there and asked that man,
7 "Will you give me those shops," and he said, "I will, Milan, just don't
8 hit me. Just take them, and that's that." And then Milan went the other
9 time and killed this Serb at Kalemegdan, and then they locked him up.
10 Locked him behind bars.
11 Q. What's more important to me, sir, and it's only if you can
12 remember, is do you remember the month and the year that you believe that
13 that happened?
14 A. It was the summer, the last summer when we left the camp.
15 Q. And so you're saying it's the summer of 1994?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And so you're saying that you saw him at the camp between when
18 you got there, every other day until the summer of 1994?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please describe this Milan Lukic.
21 A. Tall man, clean-shaven, tall.
22 Q. Hair colour?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: How tall. How tall, Witness?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 190, 180, 190, tall.
25 MR. ALARID:
Page 2200
1 Q. What was his hair colour?
2 A. Sorry? I didn't get that.
3 Q. What colour was his hair?
4 A. How long his hair was. Always closely cropped. He never had
5 long hair.
6 Q. What colour?
7 A. Black.
8 Q. Did you know the colour of his eyes?
9 A. That, I don't know. I swear. I never looked him in the eye.
10 There was no time.
11 Q. How old are you today, sir?
12 A. I was born in 1930, so you can do the math for yourself. The
13 15th of March, that's my birthday.
14 Q. And after your arrival at the barracks, what was the first time
15 you believe you saw Milan Lukic?
16 A. The second or third day. He came right away.
17 Q. And you were there in October of 1992? Is that true?
18 A. Yes, the 3rd of October.
19 Q. And did you talk to all the inmates that were in your side of the
20 barracks, the men's side?
21 A. Yes. Well, later on in the evening you would do some whispering
22 and just talk and lie down.
23 Q. Now, when you were brought there you were brought by a police
24 car; correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2201
1 Q. And you were brought there by policemen in police uniforms;
2 correct?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And do you know if the other inmates were also brought there by
5 police cars?
6 A. No, I don't know. I don't know. I didn't see that.
7 Q. Were you ever taken -- during your arrest were you ever taken to
8 the SJB in Visegrad?
9 A. No. They first took us to the school and from the school
10 straight to Uzamnica.
11 Q. Do you know Hajrudin Mutapcic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If he gave a statement indicating that he could stay at your
14 house and you used to be involved in making explosives, would that be
15 true?
16 THE INTERPRETER: One microphone at a time, please, thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not Hajrudin Mutapcic.
18 That's a different name.
19 MR. ALARID:
20 Q. Were you ever involved in making explosives during the
21 resistance?
22 A. No, not me. [Microphone not activated] saw neighbours do that.
23 Q. Could you repeat that, please, sir?
24 A. I saw them make explosives at my neighbour's place. They would
25 put it all together and then wrap it up in order to throw it.
Page 2202
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the witness.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you please repeat what you just said,
3 Witness? The interpreter didn't hear.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the all the other microphones please be
5 switched off. We can't hear on account of all the background noise.
6 Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make explosives myself,
8 not ever, but I did see other people do things.
9 MR. ALARID:
10 Q. Did you know the names of these neighbours that made explosives?
11 A. Halid's son, Halid Kahriman. They did.
12 Q. When your arm was broken, I think you stated that you never got
13 any medical attention. How did you set the breaks?
14 A. Well, it just stopped by itself and that was that. I was all
15 black and blue.
16 Q. But you indicate in your statement that after a beating, both
17 arms were broken, one in three places and the other one in one place, and
18 I'm wondering how you could recover from that.
19 A. Well, I had no choice but to recover, did I. There was no
20 medical assistance. I don't know exactly how it occurred, but it did.
21 Q. Is it possible that your arms were not broken but you just
22 thought they were because of the pain?
23 A. There certainly was a great amount of pain. And it's not that I
24 thought they were broken. I'm absolutely certain they were broken.
25 Q. But your arms were -- how long until you were able to use your
Page 2203
1 arms again to do anything?
2 A. Six months, thereabouts.
3 Q. Do you remember in what month and what year your arms were
4 broken?
5 A. I don't know, I swear. The first or the second year.
6 Q. If you were brought in in October of 1992, how many months after
7 your initial being brought in?
8 A. Could have been sometime midway through the winter.
9 Q. Of 1992 or 1993?
10 A. It could have been 1993 or it could have been 1992.
11 MR. ALARID: I have no further questions.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Alarid.
13 Mr. Cepic, or is it Mr. Dieckmann?
14 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, Mr. Dieckmann has been preparing for
15 cross-examination for this witness but we kindly ask if we can start
16 tomorrow morning because we've been waiting for translation for these
17 additional statements that Mr. Dermot Groome mentioned.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. GROOME: Your microphone, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, would you just remind me of these
21 statements?
22 MR. GROOME: That was our shortcoming in the disclosure that I
23 mentioned before the witness testified.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the further information about it is
Page 2204
1 that those translated pages will be available hopefully sometime tomorrow
2 midmorning.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. GROOME: Your microphone, Your Honour.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: If we adjourn now, then, tomorrow morning with
7 whom would we start if this is not going to be available until
8 midmorning?
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I suggest we start with the
10 cross-examination of Ewa Tabeau, and then when that's completed then the
11 translation should be available. We'll get them to Defence counsel.
12 Again it's just six pages, I believe, and we'll get them to Defence
13 counsel as soon as they become available. Hopefully we could do the
14 cross-examination then.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll follow the procedure suggested by the
16 Prosecutor. Tomorrow morning, then, at ten minutes to 9.00. 8.50 a.m.
17 Witness, we are going to adjourn now. We're going to adjourn
18 now, so you can leave when we leave, and you'll be told when to return
19 tomorrow. Do you understand?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, all right. At what time
21 should I come here?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have persons --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have persons within the Tribunal who will
25 tell you that. They will tell you when to return. It's likely to be
Page 2205
1 sometime in the middle of the morning, though.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.44 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day
4 of September, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.
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