Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2766

 1                           Monday, 27 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have some matters to deal with before we hear

 6     evidence from the witnesses.

 7             On the 4th of September, the Prosecution made use of a logbook or

 8     medical protocol book from the Visegrad health centre during its

 9     examination of Witness VG-032.  On the 3rd of October, the Prosecution

10     notified the Chamber that there was some confusion as to whether the

11     entire logbook had been admitted into evidence as Exhibit P68 or whether

12     only two pages of the logbook comprised Exhibit P68.

13             The logbook in question contains some 400 pages and was admitted

14     in the Vasiljevic case.  However, in the Chamber's view, most of the

15     information in it is irrelevant to the present case.

16             In order to clarify the record, the Chamber rules that the pages

17     of the logbook which contain entries made on the 7th of June, 1992, are

18     admitted into evidence as Exhibit P68 under seal.  These pages which are

19     unredacted are those numbered as 0545-2073 and 0545-2074, and these pages

20     in their redacted form are admitted as Exhibit P70.

21             I take this opportunity to clarify that Exhibit 1D39 only

22     comprises pages of the logbook which contain entries of 14th June 1992.

23     These pages are those numbered as 0545-2111 and 0545-2112.

24             The parties will recall that the question of in-court or doc

25     identification has arisen in this case on some occasions.  I would like

Page 2767

 1     written submissions from the parties by the -- I see here the 31st of

 2     October, but that can't be right.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I'd like written submissions from the

 5     parties by the 31st of October on how in-court or doc identification is

 6     to be treated.  The submission should take account of the decisions of

 7     the Appeals Chamber, as well as case law from other jurisdictions.

 8             The Trial Chamber is particularly interested in the following

 9     questions:  One, what constitutes in-court or doc identification?  Two,

10     does it include a situation where the witness knows the accused before

11     the incident?  Three, in considering how it is to be treated, an issue

12     arises as to whether doc identification goes to weight or admissibility,

13     so I'd like submissions on that.  Four, in circumstances where it is

14     determined that there is a case of doc identification, how is that

15     evidence to be treated on a no-case submission under Rule 98 bis.  In

16     particular, should the Defence be called on to respond to that evidence.

17     An issue here is that in the regime for no-case submissions at the

18     Tribunal, in order to succeed one has to show that there is no evidence

19     capable of supporting a conviction on a count as a whole and that seldom

20     is the case.  In the instant case, a point to be considered is whether

21     there is evidence other than the doc identification supporting a count.

22             When I mentioned earlier the date of the 31st of October for the

23     submissions, I paused because I thought it wasn't enough time, but on

24     reflection I think it is enough time.

25             Mr. Alarid, I see -- I am informed that you are -- you're now

Page 2768

 1     fortified, much better resourced, and I see you smiling.  You have a

 2     co-counsel.

 3             MR. ALARID:  I do, Your Honour, and that was going to be the

 4     first thing -- that was going to be the first order of business is, of

 5     course, to introduce as formal co-counsel Mr. Dan Ivetic to the Court as

 6     he has been appointed as of 5.00 p.m. Thursday.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MR. ALARID:  So we are fortified to a certain degree, although

 9     are still making concessions with our team due to the fact of we're level

10     1 at this juncture and still needing resources in the field, and so it's

11     still a problem, Your Honour.  I can't say it's been resolved, but I at

12     least have the support in the courtroom and I think the Court wanted for

13     purposes ever continuity but it still is a process.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, the Chamber takes the opportunity to

15     welcome Mr. Ivetic, and we note the familiarity that he has with the

16     case, and we are confident that he will be of tremendous help to the

17     Defence.

18             The third matter I wanted to raise --

19                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I was saying that I wanted to raise another

21     matter, and it has to do with the motion filed by Milan Lukic to suppress

22     the testimony for failure of timely disclosure with Confidential Annexes

23     A and B.  This is in reference to the testimony of VG-114.

24             Mr. Groome, you will notice that in the motion, in paragraph 3

25     there are references to six batches of disclosures that have been made

Page 2769

 1     within a week, and the Chamber would be assisted to be informed what

 2     these batches relate to.  We would be in a better position to decide on

 3     the motion if we were informed what the batches of evidence are -- relate

 4     to and so we would want you to give us that information at the very

 5     earliest opportunity.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, when this issue first arose, I gave the

 7     Chamber some information.  I can recall for the Chamber what I advised

 8     the Chamber at that stage, but I will take advantage of the first break

 9     to get more detailed information, but much of the -- much of the

10     documents related to prior reports of the -- of the experts.  If you

11     recall, that week there were several experts that testified.  And some of

12     it was also in relation to -- there was some of these reports that we did

13     not believe were disclosable under the rules but nevertheless may have

14     been of interest to the Defence, and we sent them a letter stating this

15     and saying we would make that material, although we did not see it as

16     disclosable material, if it was information -- additional information

17     that they wished to see, we would make that available to them, and both

18     counsel accepted that offer and asked to see that material.  And some of

19     that material is also included in -- in that -- that large amount of

20     disclosure that was made that week, but, Your Honour, I can give more

21     precise information over the course of the break and report after the

22     first break.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We'd like more precise information.  Thank

24     you very much, Mr. Groome.

25             Those are the matters I wanted to deal with before the witness

Page 2770

 1     was called.  Would you please call the witness now.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Sorry.  Mr. Alarid.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.  We have additional preliminary

 5     matters and sort of in the same vein as the final question to Mr. Groome.

 6     You know, one of the problems that's been is that we've been forced into

 7     this timetable of getting ready for the defence and also keeping up with

 8     this schedule of trial which has also been mixed up quite a bit by

 9     refiling of witness lists and amending of the witness lists and

10     subsequent disclosures.  I will put the Court on notice that just on

11     Thursday, just after 5.00 p.m., we get an e-mail saying shortly will be

12     in your locker batch 47.  Well, batch 47 constitutes 53 documents, and of

13     those 53 documents that actually consist of over a thousand pages, and

14     the thousand pages is -- some of them are for the newly tendered

15     handwriting expert, but all of these -- and this not exhaustive because

16     we've actually gone through these and put 19 of the 53 documents that

17     were in this stack away in binders that were set for the witnesses to be

18     called during this -- as we restart the case.

19             Now, the thing is these are all things that could have been given

20     to us at the beginning of the two weeks, maybe that Friday afternoon that

21     we had that short hearing, but instead it's until after business on

22     Thursday right before the weekend.  And so what we've had to do this

23     weekend is go through as much as we could, file as much away in the

24     witness binders that we could, and we still have all of this to go

25     through.  Some of it's in B/C/S.  Some of it's English with no B/C/S

Page 2771

 1     translation.  Some of it's English with no B/C/S.  And so it puts us at

 2     an incredible disadvantage because of these 53 documents several of them

 3     are considered to be Rule 68.  Some of them are considered to be Rule 66,

 4     and we're dealing with this all at the twelfth hour.  And it's tantamount

 5     to, you know, a large insurance firm back in the States papering people

 6     at the last minute and giving you that needle in the haystack to find,

 7     if -- unless there's enough time reasonably to go through the documents,

 8     and I mean this is a lot of paper work to go through and shuffle

 9     especially with our staff as limited as it is.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, why are you drowning the Defence

11     with paper?

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there's certainly no intentional effort

13     to drown anyone.  Our only intention is to abide by the requirements that

14     the Rules impose on us.

15             With respect to the handwriting expert, the Chamber hasn't even

16     added him or granted us the right to add him yet, so we thought -- our

17     thought we were being as cooperative as possible as soon as we identified

18     him as a potential witness.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's the timeliness that's the issue.  Why do

20     they get it so late and so many pages?

21             MR. GROOME:  With respect to the handwriting expert, which I

22     think is an awful large portion of this, we've just filed a motion last

23     week to -- or I forget the exact date when it was filed but we filed a

24     motion to add him.  I asked my staff to go through and check -- do and

25     computer search on him, see what other cases he's testified in and to

Page 2772

 1     gather that and to present that to the Defence as soon as possible.  The

 2     other material that Mr. Alarid is referring to I'm not exactly sure.  I

 3     know there was no effort to intentionally give it to him after the

 4     weekend.  In fact, when the witnesses that are testifying today, when

 5     they made statements that we thought were discoverable after they arrived

 6     here in The Hague, that was -- every effort was made to contact me at my

 7     home to authorise the disclosure to Mr. Alarid yesterday evening.  So

 8     we've made every effort to get material to Mr. Alarid as soon as

 9     possible.  If we have failed somewhere, I would want to know about that

10     and I'll do whatever I can to correct it but --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There is a distinction between 68 material and

12     66(A)(ii) because 66(A)(ii) ought really to have been disclosed long ago.

13             MR. GROOME:  Well, Your Honour, with respect to the handwriting,

14     let's really think about what we're speaking about.  We're talking about

15     a handwriting expert who is not on the witness list yet, so I made

16     efforts last week to try to --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down for the interpreters.  Thank

18     you very much.

19             MR. GROOME:  I apologise -- to assist Mr. Alarid even before the

20     Prosecution case to identify the Rule 66 material for the handwriting

21     expert and to provide that as soon as possible.  That is a large part of

22     what Mr. Alarid is now referring to.  The other materials that he's

23     referring to, I'm not even precisely sure whether there's any Rule 66

24     material related to these two witnesses.  I will say to the Chamber that

25     as soon as we are able, and we're competing with other trial cases to

Page 2773

 1     have computer searches done of the 7 million-plus documents, if in those

 2     searches additional material is revealed that is considered Rule 66, we

 3     disclose that immediately, Your Honour.  So again I will take a look at

 4     exactly what was disclosed on Thursday, but I can assure the Chamber

 5     there's been absolutely no intentional effort to -- to put Mr. Alarid at

 6     a disadvantage.  Every effort has been made to get him this material as

 7     soon as possible.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I could just add to that, I could

 9     maybe clear things up with at least the handwriting expert portion of it.

10     If we could simply know from the Prosecution if they will be doing this

11     again Friday of this week because the time-limits for the objections

12     under 94 bis to the expert of course flow from when the material is

13     provided to the Defence, so we need to know that in order to plan our

14     resources.  As for the other documents, I do have the index that was in

15     disclosure batch 47 and again --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please slow down for

17     interpretation.  Slow down for the interpreters and, please, the

18     interpreters could not follow at this speed.  And please repeat the last

19     three sentences.  Thank you very much.

20             MR. IVETIC:  One of our main concerns is that the disclosure

21     batch 47 was named just that, disclosure batch 47.  The e-mail sent by

22     the Office of the Prosecutor did not even have an index of the documents

23     to allow us to ascertain what material was in the locker at 6.00 in the

24     evening on the weekend.  We would ask that the Prosecution at least show

25     us the courtesy of advising us what documents are being dumped into a

Page 2774

 1     locker particularly where deadlines under the Rules, and again counsel

 2     cited compliance to the Rules, and we want to ensure that we comply with

 3     the Rules, and in order to comply with the Rules, we need the assistance

 4     to know when dates for responses and the like come into play.

 5             I do have the said index of disclosure batch 47 with me because

 6     it's in the binder with the expert, and I can affirm that indeed in

 7     addition to the material for the handwriting expert much of the other

 8     material, if not a majority of the other material, is listed as Rule

 9     66(A) material.  So it's not a case where it's only the expert that is

10     Rule 66(A) material, albeit I don't know if it's pertaining to the

11     witnesses scheduled this week or not, but I did want to bring that to the

12     Court's attention and that could be verified just by pulling up the index

13     which identifies the reasons for disclosure for the documents and it's

14     chocked full with Rule 66, Rule 66 --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please slow down for

16     interpretation.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You used a very loaded term, Mr. Ivetic,

18     "dumped."  The documents are being "dumped."

19             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honour, I -- and appropriately or not,

20     they just got dumped off the table.  I apologise if there's any

21     misunderstanding there.  I just consider -- in the American vernacular

22     when materials are put somewhere without an identification of what is in

23     those materials, we commonly used the term "dumped" as opposed to being

24     delivered because you don't know what's in that packet until you go there

25     and physically go through it.  I apologise if there's any confusion.

Page 2775

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome would have heard what you said.  We

 2     are going to be considering the motion filed, and Mr. Groome is going to

 3     provide the additional information that the Chamber sought as quickly as

 4     possible.

 5             We should move to the witnesses now.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution calls VG-042.

 7     Mr. Travis Farr, he has not appeared before in this trial, he will be

 8     taking this witness.

 9             Your Honour, I'd like to raise a matter with respect to

10     protective measures.  On the 20th of June, 2008, the Chamber issued

11     protective measures for this witness which included a pseudonym, facial

12     distortion and voice distortion.  After discussing it with the witness

13     after her arrival here in The Hague, she believes she no longer needs

14     voice distortion, so I would ask for an amendment to the protective

15     measures order and I think that would facilitate the taking of her

16     testimony if there is no voice distortion.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We grant that.

18             MR. GROOME:  And, Your Honour, while we're waiting for the

19     witness, may I update you on VG-024, that was the witness that was the

20     subject of a subpoena.  VG-024 has considered her position and has now

21     agreed to voluntarily come to The Hague and she'll be arriving here in

22     The Hague on the 1st of November.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So the softly, softly approach worked.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-042

Page 2776

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please read the declaration to the witness, and

 3     the witness will repeat it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, please repeat after me.  I solemnly

 5     declare.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That I will speak the truth.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The whole truth.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  And nothing but truth.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth alone.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  You may now commence.  I'm sorry I

14     didn't get your name properly.

15             MR. FARR:  Travis Farr appearing for the Prosecution today, Your

16     Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Travis Farr.

18             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, can we briefly move into private session

19     to take the personal details of the witness.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2777

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17             MR. FARR:

18        Q.   Witness 042, what is your ethnic or religious background?

19        A.   I'm a Muslim.

20        Q.   Can you describe for us generally where you lived in 1992?  Not

21     your specific house address but in what area.

22        A.   Dusce, Visegrad.

23        Q.   Are you familiar with the Varda furniture factory in Visegrad?

24        A.   Yes.  It's right outside my door.

25        Q.   Before the war, did you know a couple named Dzemal Zukic and

Page 2778

 1     Behka Zukic and their family?

 2        A.   Of course.  They were my neighbours.

 3        Q.   Did some people call Behka by another name?

 4        A.   They called her Behija.

 5        Q.   Do you know which of these names was her real name and which one

 6     was her nickname?

 7        A.   I think her real name was Behija, and Behka was more of a

 8     nickname.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how this family earned a living before

10     the war?

11        A.   They got married when they were young.  They left for Germany.

12     Then once there, they got their lives back up and running.  They owned a

13     shop that they ran, and I think they had a decent life.

14        Q.   Did this family own any vehicles before the war?

15        A.   Yes.  Well, I don't know.  I don't really know, because soon

16     after they were married they left for Germany.  When they returned from

17     Germany, they had a TAM truck and a passenger vehicle, a Passat.

18        Q.   Do you know what, if anything, happened to this Passat during the

19     war?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you please tell the Chamber.

22        A.   Sure.  One day I went to the MUP building in town to get a pass

23     to leave town just to make sure we were safe.  I was on my way back to

24     Dusce.  There were two roads.  One was next to the Drina River; it was an

25     asphalt road, surfaced.  And then there was a macadam road parallel to

Page 2779

 1     the rail line, so we took that road in order not to meet any Chetniks on

 2     our way back.  As soon as I reached the Varda furniture factory, there's

 3     a house there belonging to a man named Sevko Hodzic.  Dzemo Zukic and his

 4     Behija passed us, and then there was a white Fico driving behind us and

 5     it pulled over right outside Sevko Hodzic's house.  Milan Lukic got out

 6     of that Fico vehicle and walked up to Vico [as interpreted] Zukic and his

 7     wife Behija.  He seized their car.  We walked on past the Varda factory

 8     to our homes.  I said, Dzemo, my dear, what was that?  And Behija told me

 9     one thing, Don't ask a question.  Milan Lukic just took my car away.  And

10     that was that.  We talked no more.  We went our separate ways.  We walked

11     on, and then I took a turn towards my house, and they just walked on

12     towards their home.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that you just said:  "Dzemo Zukic and his

14     Behija and passed us, and then there was Fico driving ..."  Just to

15     clarify, when they passed you, did they pass on foot or in an auto or

16     how?

17        A.   They got into the car and they got pulled right over.  The Fico

18     drew up and then they pulled over too.  I happened to come by.  I kept my

19     head low.  I took off my shoes because I was too scared to walk on with

20     my shoes on.  I held the shoes in my hands.  I was too afraid.  I didn't

21     even dare to look there.  I just kept my head down and walked straight

22     on.

23        Q.   You've just mentioned that the Zukics told you that their car was

24     taken by Milan Lukic.  Had you known Milan Lukic before?

25        A.   Yes, I knew Milan Lukic when he was a small boy, when he was a

Page 2780

 1     schoolboy.  He went to the school in Klasnik.  My village was Scitarevo

 2     and his village was Rujiste.  I knew him as a boy.  Sometimes we would

 3     take the same bus.  From the school in Klasnik, there was a co-op there

 4     and one would go to the co-op.  That's what they called it.  And then we

 5     would take this bus together.  I -- I would get off on the next stop, and

 6     then the children would get off, and I did this countless times.  I've

 7     lost track, so I did see a great deal of him back then.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  As you were growing up, did your family have any

 9     pasture land?

10        A.   Yes.  We had meadows that we shared.  That's where Milan lived,

11     the village of Rujiste.  These are the names our meadows Cetulje, Milan

12     knows that full well.  And then Osojnica as well.  Children used to play

13     there.  They played football and they were all together.  That's how it

14     was.

15        Q.   Did other families have pasture land near the pasture land of

16     your family?

17        A.   Yes.  All of our people there, back where I come from, we had

18     pastures.  Other people did too.  Those were our meadows.  That's how we

19     referred to them.

20        Q.   Can you tell me some of the families that had pasture land near

21     your family's pasture land?

22        A.   Well, I can.  My own family did.  A number of them Hasim Todovic,

23     but they're all dead.  Ramo Cocalic, Ismet Cocalic, Aco Cocalic, they are

24     all neighbours of my dad.  Ismet Cocalic.  They all know this.

25     Mujo Ramic, there was another man called that.  It was a whole

Page 2781

 1     neighbourhood, really.  People were meeting, and they all knew each other

 2     because they grew up together, didn't they?  Our children, too, they all

 3     went to the same school.

 4        Q.   Were there any Serb families that had pasture land near your

 5     family's pasture land?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cepic.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  This question sounds me as --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.

 9             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave this question sounds me

10     as a leading question.  I think that we already received the answer from

11     this witness about that issue.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Farr, you have to be careful about leading.

13             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

14        Q.   You've mentioned that you would occasionally see Milan Lukic on

15     the bus when he was a boy.  Did you see him in any other locations when

16     he was a boy?

17        A.   No.  At school, but I maybe wouldn't have seen him that often,

18     but I just had to go myself because I had to take care of the business.

19     I was the eldest child and then I had to go to the co-op, which wasn't

20     too close either, and then I had to go get some stuff and then I would

21     meet these children on the way, you know, leaving school.  And then we'd

22     get on the bus together and drive straight on to Rujiste.

23        Q.   I believe you said that Milan Lukic was from the village of

24     Rujiste.  Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.  That's where he was born.

Page 2782

 1        Q.   Did you know any other members of his family?

 2        A.   Well, I knew his mom, Kata.  I knew his dad, Mile.  They were on

 3     good terms with my own father.  His grandfather.  He was on very good

 4     terms with my father.  They were close friends.

 5        Q.   Did you --

 6        A.   His name was Nedjo, Nedjo Ivanovic.

 7        Q.   Did your father ever socialise or greet Milan Lukic's mother and

 8     father?

 9        A.   Of course.  What else?  My father was with the -- the forestry

10     company and then they would meet there.  They'd sit down for a coffee, a

11     brandy, that sort of thing.

12        Q.   You've said that you know the names of Milan Lukic's parents.

13     Did you personally greet them or socialise with them?

14        A.   When I was young, a girl, a young woman, if you like, yes, we'd

15     exchange greetings.  I never stayed at their home.  I can't say that I

16     did.

17        Q.   I believe you've mentioned Milan Lukic's primary school.  Do you

18     know where he completed the rest of his education?

19        A.   In Prlog.  I think it was in Prlog, his secondary education.

20        Q.   After secondary school, do you know what he did?

21        A.   I can't really say.  I know he left for Serbia later on, after

22     he'd left school.  He was no longer in Visegrad.  I didn't see him any

23     more after that.  I know that he was in Serbia.

24        Q.   Do you know whether he returns to Visegrad at some point?

25        A.   Yeah, probably he would go see his parents every now and then,

Page 2783

 1     but I simply didn't see him at the time.

 2        Q.   Returning to the day when the Zukics' car was taken from them,

 3     what happened after you parted company with them?

 4        A.   They drove on back to their house, further down the road from

 5     mine, and then I took a turn up the road and my home was right there.

 6     About 5.00 that afternoon the phone rings.  Where are the men?  Make them

 7     leave.  Make them go away.  They're picking up the men at Dzemo Zukic's

 8     place.  (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Witness, how did you react to these phone calls that you

20     received?

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2784

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I believe the witness mentioned her name

13     again on page 18 at line 9.  If that could be redacted.

14        Q.   And, Witness, if I could just ask you to try to remember not to

15     mention your name.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please make an effort.

17             Mr. Cepic.

18             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave, I think we missed the

19     part which witness mentioned that the body was buried.  If I say in B/C/S

20     [B/C/S spoken].  I heard that so my learned friend can check that with

21     additional questions.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What line would that be missing from?

23             MR. CEPIC:  19 and 20.  19 would be.  Page 18, line 19.

24             MR. FARR:  I can probably clarify that.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ask that question again.

Page 2785

 1             MR. FARR:

 2        Q.   Witness, as far as you know, what happened to the body of

 3     Behka Zukic?

 4        A.   Well, they told me that Milan Lukic had killed her.

 5     Behija Jamak, Sabit Jamak's wife told me that.

 6        Q.   Sorry to interrupt you, Witness.  This is a slightly different

 7     question.  When you arrived that morning and saw her dead body, what then

 8     happened to her body as far as you know?

 9        A.   I know that while I was still in that house we got her body.  A

10     car drove up.  I don't know what car it was.  Was it an ambulance, was it

11     not an ambulance, I don't know.  I didn't look.  I was too scared to

12     look.  The car took Behija Zukic's body away.  And then we have a

13     graveyard, Straziste I think is the name, and I think that's where they

14     buried her body.

15        Q.   Just to clarify, though, you did not go along with the body; is

16     that correct?

17        A.   No, no, no, no.

18        Q.   So it's just a supposition that she was taken to Straziste to be

19     buried?

20        A.   Well, yes.  Yes, that's what I believe.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think that we have some

23     leading questions and calling for speculation in last questions.  It's

24     not a proper question for direct examination.  That is my humble opinion.

25     Thank you.

Page 2786

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.  Counsel, desist from leading

 2     questions.

 3             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Witness, a moment ago you said in reference to that morning,

 5     "Well, they told me that Milan Lukic had killed her.  Behija Jamak,

 6     Sabit Jamak's wife told me that."

 7             Can you please tell the Chamber exactly what Behija Jamak told

 8     you about the death of Behija Zukic?

 9        A.   Sure.  I can tell you everything.  I know everything she told me.

10     She told me this -- it's not just me who was there.  There were other

11     people there.  She said Milan Lukic had arrived.  Having taken away

12     Faruk -- Faruk's son and Dzemo and all these other people, he drove back

13     and he told her to give him her money and her jewellery.  And she said, I

14     have nothing left.  Whatever I had I've given away.  And Milan Lukic then

15     said, Come with me to -- up to the first floor.  And he said, Just sit

16     down here.  When I'm back I'll just kill you, won't I.  And then she

17     jumped out the window.  There was some sort of a low-lying terrace

18     outside the house and some meadow.  And she said she was there, so they

19     got out of the house and they left.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, is your husband alive today?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you remember and can you describe the last day you saw him

23     alive?

24        A.   I do remember but I don't remember the date.  I know it was the

25     Bajram when the animals were slaughtered, and he was alive until that

Page 2787

 1     date, and on that date he was taken away by Milan Lukic and killed.

 2        Q.   Can you please describe how that happened.

 3        A.   Yes, I can, and I'll do that very easily.  I'll describe it

 4     easily because it's as if it was happening now before my very eyes.  It

 5     was half past 10.00, and there was breakfast in the factory.  People were

 6     going out for breakfast in the factory, and Milan Lukic came by with his

 7     Passat.  From the car -- he parked the car at the gate, the gate where

 8     you go into the timber yard, and he stood in front of the administration

 9     building and Ramiz Karaman, a neighbour, was there and my husband was

10     standing nearby.  It was in the sawmill, actually.  And he made them go

11     towards the gate, and I was standing out on the terrace and he said to my

12     husband -- he told him to take off his coat.  I didn't hear that, but he

13     threw his coat down on some logs and then he made them go towards the

14     gate.  And when they arrived at the gate, they stood by the car, and

15     there was a Volvo who -- whose motor was switched on, and in the Volvo

16     was a man called Ahmed Kasapovic.  He went up to him and he knocked on

17     the glass, made him get out of the Volvo and took him to the gate too.

18     And when he brought them to the gate, he opened the back door and they

19     got into the Passat, into the car and he drove them off towards town.

20        Q.   Thank you --

21        A.   However --

22        Q.   Sorry.  Just to interrupt for a moment.  Just to clarify, when

23     you say he brought them to the gate, he brought them to the back door and

24     they got into the Passat, who are you referring to as "he"?

25        A.   I'm referring to Milan Lukic.

Page 2788

 1        Q.   And after he put the three men in the back of the car, what

 2     happened next?

 3        A.   He drove them off towards town, right by my house.  And perhaps

 4     half an hour went by, maybe it was longer.  I didn't look at my watch

 5     because I was out on the terrace all the time and felt sad, and I was

 6     screaming and crying to see what was happening, and the car came back to

 7     the same spot, the gate, and parked where it parked previously.  And once

 8     again Milan Lukic got out of the car, and he walked towards the same

 9     administration building and the people were having breakfast.  He rounded

10     up the -- some people and marched them towards the gate.  These were all

11    my neighbours all these people.  One was called Nusret Aljusevic, and then

12     there was Ibrisim Memisevic.  Nedzad Bektas was another.

13     Lutvo Tvrtkovic, he was a little simple, that man.  Then there was Cancar

14     Musan.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, Witness.  Now you have described

16     two incidents in which you say Milan Lukic came and made people walk

17     towards the car, go towards the car.  How did he do this?  How was he

18     able to achieve this, to make them go to the car?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in front -- walking in

20     front of him like sheep and he was walking behind them with a rifle.  And

21     then when he brought them to the gate, he took Memisevic's overalls off

22     and they took out their cigarettes and keys and threw them down onto the

23     overalls.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So he had a rifle.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2789

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And was that on both occasions?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  He took the three men

 3     off before, and then he came back to fetch the others.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did -- on the first occasion, did you hear him

 5     say anything to the men?  On the first occasion, did you hear Milan Lukic

 6     speak to the men and, if so, what did he say?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean did I hear him

 8     speak to him?  How do you mean?  I'm not quite sure what you mean.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Were you in a position to -- to hear any

11     conversation between Milan Lukic and the men?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't, no.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Farr.

14             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Witness, you have just told us that Milan Lukic had gathered

16     these six men who you named and taken them to the gate, and you also

17     mentioned that they had -- that Ibrisim Memisevic took off his shirt and

18     the others took out their personal items.  Can you tell us what happened

19     after that?

20        A.   Yes, I can.  He made them walk towards the Drina River, in front

21     of him again, just like sheep.  He herded them towards the river and he

22     walked behind them and he brought them to the bank of the river, and I

23     could see all this.  And then he made them line up one next to the other

24     but not too close, and then he killed them one by one.  Then there was a

25     burst of gun-fire and he killed them all.  And when he came back, then he

Page 2790

 1     shot at us, because Ibrisim Memisevic's wife and daughter turned up and

 2     they were standing there and his daughter was shouting out, "Father,

 3     father," and he turned round when he heard this child crying.  When he'd

 4     killed them down by the river, then he started shooting at us.  We laid

 5     down on the ground and there were bullets whizzing by --

 6        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation continues] ...

 7        A.   Do you want me to continue?

 8        Q.   Could I just ask you where you were as you were observing all of

 9     this?

10        A.   I was out my terrace.  Where my house is, out on the terrace.

11        Q.   Can you estimate the distance between your terrace and the gate

12     that you mentioned where the workers were initially gathered?

13        A.   Yes, I can.  It might be 50 as the crow flies, 50 metres, perhaps

14     less.  I can't be quite sure.

15        Q.   Did you have a clear view at the time that Milan Lukic was

16     gathering these workers?

17        A.   No, nothing occupied me.  I was just -- I was just wondering how

18     all this could happen in the middle of the day.  I was astounded, and I

19     just screamed.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You'll have to ask the question again.  I don't

21     believe she understood it.

22             What the counsel was asking you, Witness, was whether you were

23     able to see from where you were Milan Lukic as he was gathering the

24     workers.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I saw Milan Lukic.  He was

Page 2791

 1     wearing a camouflage uniform.  I saw him gather up the people, and I know

 2     all these people, each and every one of them.  It was all happening right

 3     in front of the door from this company, and I know them all.

 4             MR. FARR:

 5        Q.   And from the distance that you were watching from your terrace,

 6     could you easily recognise the victims that you've named?

 7        A.   Yes.  I could recognise them any time and every time.  They used

 8     to come by to my house.  They were all my neighbours except Cancar.  He

 9     was not a neighbour, but I knew him too.  He would always come by.

10        Q.   Can you estimate the distance between where you stood on your

11     terrace and the point beside the river where the men were killed?

12        A.   Of course I can tell you.  I didn't move from my terrace.  I was

13     watching it all happen.  I saw it personally from my terrace.  I saw what

14     was going on.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And what was the distance between your terrace

16     and the river?  How far was your terrace from the river?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps -- well, I can't tell you

18     exactly.  I don't want to make a mistake.  It might have been a hundred

19     metres, maybe a little more, but 50 to the gate as the crow flies.  Where

20     the gate is, that's 50.

21             MR. FARR:

22        Q.   I believe that you had also told us, Witness, that there were

23     some other people watching these events with you on the terrace.  Without

24     using their names, can you please tell us how they reacted to these

25     events?

Page 2792

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             MR. FARR:  I don't think I did, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Witness, could you estimate approximately what time of day this

16     second event occurred, that is the taking away of the six men to the

17     Drina.

18        A.   About 12.00.  Whether it was 12.00 exactly, I can't really say.

19     I didn't look at my watch.  But it was roughly at around 12.00.  It was

20     the Bajram holiday, Kurban Bajram, the highest religious holiday.  That's

21     when that happened.

22        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

23             MR. FARR:  Could the court officer please place Prosecution

24     Exhibit P153 on the screen, but could the director please not broadcast

25     the image of the photo as the witness will be identifying her house.  And

Page 2793

 1     could the usher zoom in on the centre of the photo and be available to

 2     assist the witness in marking the photo.

 3        Q.   Witness, could you please take a look at the photograph on the

 4     screen in front of you.  Do you recognise what you see in this photo?

 5     But please don't begin marking yet.  Can you just describe what you see

 6     in the photo.

 7        A.   Yes, I can describe it.  You mean from where I was watching, from

 8     where I was standing?

 9        Q.   Could you just -- could you just generally tell us first what you

10     see in the photo.  Do you recognise this area?  Do you recognise these

11     buildings?

12        A.   All of this.  I recognise it all.  I lived there.  I know it all.

13     It's my neighbourhood.  All the buildings, the houses, the sawmill,

14     everything.  I also recognise the people standing there, down there.

15     There's a car there.  Milan chased the people out in that direction,

16     where there’s a car standing. 

17        Q.   Do you see your house in this photo, that is the house where you

18     were on the day that these events occurred?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you please circle -- do you see the veranda that you were

21     standing on at the time these events occurred?

22        A.   Yes, yes, I see it all.  I'll tell you any time you like.

23        Q.   Could you please circle the veranda or terrace that you were

24     standing on at the time these events occurred?

25        A.   I'll draw circles around both terraces.  The first terrace I was

Page 2794

 1     standing on when he took the three men away, and I'll draw a circle

 2     around the terrace that I was on when he took the other lot of people;

 3     right?

 4        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  Could you please just circle the

 5     terrace that you were on when you saw him take the second group of

 6     people.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And could you now mark with a cross or X the place

 9     are you saw Milan Lukic park the Passat.

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MR. FARR:  Your Honour --

12        Q.   Witness, are you able to make a cross or an X in that spot?

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  Could you now draw a line from the place

15     where the men were gathered at the gate to the place at the river where

16     they were killed?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you tell us what those three lines that you've just drawn

19     beside the river represent?

20        A.   The lines represent where he -- the point where he brought those

21     people and where he killed them.  It didn't look like this before.  This

22     is some new work that was done.

23        Q.   Witness, do you see the wall in the photo near the river?

24        A.   Well, yes, I can see the wall by the river, but as I say, the

25     wall was recently built.  It didn't exist before.

Page 2795

 1             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I tender Exhibit P153 as marked by this

 2     witness as a separate Prosecution exhibit under seal.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number P157, Your Honours.

 5             MR. FARR:

 6        Q.   Witness, did you ever try to find out what happened with your

 7     husband immediately after he was taken away?

 8        A.   Of course I did.  I always tried to find out what had happened,

 9     and I wasn't able to learn what had happened.  It was only after a month

10     or two.  I can't say exactly how much time went by, but later people told

11     me that they -- his body was found in the river, that the river had taken

12     his body downstream.

13        Q.   And did you ever have a chance to identify his body?

14        A.   Yes, in Visoko.  That's where the identification took place.  The

15     body was in Slap, and then I transported it to Vlahovo where his body was

16     buried.

17        Q.   And how specifically was he identified?

18        A.   He was killed in the head, and I recognised him.  He had some

19     false teeth, and I made a statement and said I could recognise this.  And

20     I recognised the clothes he was wearing that day.  We recognised his

21     shirt and all the other clothing that he had on that day.  We recognised

22     all that.

23        Q.   You've told us that people told you about finding his body, and

24     you've told us about identifying his body.  Did anyone ever tell you

25     anything about how he actually died?

Page 2796

 1        A.   Before that, I learnt about things.  It was war.  I went to

 2     Visoko.  I was there for a year.  As people came by they would say

 3     things.  And then on one occasion Ramo Kurspahic was the man's name told

 4     me that he was watching across the Drina River using binoculars and that

 5     he saw my husband killed at a place called Potavnica, that they took him

 6     to that place and that that's where he was killed.  So that's what I

 7     learnt from him.  I learnt about it later on.

 8        Q.   Did Ramo Kurspahic tell you who killed your husband?

 9        A.   No, no, he didn't.  What did I need Ramo Kurspahic to tell me

10     when I saw that Milan Lukic took my husband away?  You don't suppose he

11     gave him to someone else to kill.  He killed him.

12             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for this

13     witness.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Farr.

15             Mr. Alarid.

16             MR. ALARID:  Thank you Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. VG-042.  My name is Jason Alarid, and I

19     represent Milan Lukic in this courtroom.  Can I ask you a few questions

20     today?

21        A.   Go ahead.

22        Q.   Now, ma'am, first things first.  I'd like to talk about your

23     contact with the ICTY and giving statements regarding war crimes to

24     either the Tribunal or to Bosnian authorities.  Do you recall giving

25     several statements to authorities in this case?

Page 2797

 1        A.   How do you mean?

 2        Q.   Well, for instance, I've received several proofing statements

 3     where you have apparently met with prosecutors and reviewed statements

 4     and given clarifications.  The most recent proofing note comes from

 5     October 26th, 2008, so just a couple days ago.  Do you remember giving

 6     that proofing session?

 7        A.   I only say what I saw and what I know about.  Nobody can

 8     influence me in any way.  I tell the truth.  I have children and that's

 9     why I always tell the truth and everybody should do the same.  They

10     should always tell the truth so that the truth might be known.

11        Q.   Ma'am, what I asked you is do you remember speaking with

12     prosecutors, including Mr. Farr, on October 26th, 2008?

13        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember everything, but I do remember --

14     well, I'm not literate, but I do have a clear mind, thank heaven, and I

15     remember everything.  Otherwise, I can't remember anything else.  I don't

16     remember dates.  I don't know what I said today or yesterday, but I

17     remember very well all the atrocities that took place, yes, I do.

18        Q.   Well, ma'am, the 26th of October was yesterday.  Do you remember

19     speaking with Mr. Farr yesterday?

20        A.   Well, I talked to the man.  I'm not sure I remember his name.

21     I'm sure I talked to him.  Yes, I did.

22        Q.   And were any -- because you're not literate, every time you have

23     a question or want to add something to your statement were your previous

24     statements read to you so you could clarify yourself?

25        A.   I forget.  Well, even if they were read out, yes, I do remember

Page 2798

 1     certain things, but others I forget.  And whatever I do remember I

 2     recount.

 3        Q.   Well, apparently yesterday, on the 26th, and I'd ask you to say

 4     if this is true or false, that in your proofing session of the 26th of

 5     October, 2008, you indicated that you now believe that Sredoje Lukic was

 6     present during the abductions at the Varda factory on 10 June 1992.  Is

 7     that -- was that your statement that came to you yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what prompted you to remember this after all this time, this

10     belief in your -- what was told to you by -- during that proofing session

11     if you were not able to read yourself previous statements?

12        A.   You know what led me to say that?  Because Sredoje Lukic,

13     Milan Lukic, that is to say the two children of one man, when they took

14     the Passat from Dzemo Zukic, nobody else drew that -- drove that car,

15     just him, and that's why I said it.  Nobody ever drove that car except

16     for the two of them.

17        Q.   But it's my understanding that this person who's in that car

18     never got out of the vehicle so you could assess what he was wearing, how

19     he looked.  Isn't that true?

20        A.   Well, they always wore a uniform.  Perhaps I didn't express

21     myself properly.  They all wore uniforms.  And he was sitting in the car,

22     and Milan did what I've just told you about.

23        Q.   But, ma'am, you gave no description of Mr. Sredoje Lukic as to

24     his age.  Isn't that true?

25        A.   I don't know what age Sredoje Lukic was exactly, but I know him

Page 2799

 1     well.  He was a working colleague of my son, and he would come to my

 2     house often, and I knew Sredoje Lukic very well.

 3        Q.   But, ma'am, you're over -- you're over 50 metres away on your

 4     veranda, and this person did not get out of a vehicle, and you gave no

 5     descriptive means for that person.  Isn't that true?

 6        A.   I assume, and I always assume that Sredoje and Milan Lukic were

 7     in the car -- the Passat car together.

 8        Q.   So you assumed, but you do not know.  Isn't that true?

 9        A.   I think that that's correct, because I would come across them

10     before in the car.  They would be there in the car together on previous

11     occasions.

12        Q.   Okay.  But isn't it true that the first time that you mentioned

13     that this passenger, this passenger driver of this Passat got out of the

14     vehicle was in the 26th of October, 2008?

15        A.   Yes, I did say that, yes.  Correct.  Of course.

16        Q.   Now, you've just testified, ma'am, that you'd seen these two

17     gentleman always in this car, always in the Passat, only them; correct?

18        A.   Always.  Nobody ever drove that car except for Milan and Sredoje.

19     They thought it was an aeroplane, not a car.  That's how they behaved.

20        Q.   Ma'am, do you recall going to a proofing session, your third

21     proofing session in this matter on the 22nd of October, 2008?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And present at this proofing session was Petar Finci,

24     Travis Farr, and Nada Kiswanson; correct?

25        A.   Yes.  It's just I didn't really memorise their names, did I.

Page 2800

 1             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, just to clarify.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             MR. FARR:  There is a proofing notes dated the 22nd of October,

 4     but it actually pertains to a proofing that took place on the 21st and

 5     22nd of September.  I apologise for the confusion that that might have

 6     caused.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   And, ma'am, according to this proofing note that was a

10     clarification of a September 21st and 22nd proofing note, this indicates

11     that you believe that the killing of Behka Zukic and the taking of her

12     car by Milan Lukic occurred the day before the killings at the Varda

13     factory charged in this indictment.  Isn't that true, ma'am?

14        A.   Maybe I got the date wrong.  It was earlier on that they seized

15     the car.  It was right in front of my very own eyes.  They weren't

16     standing five metres away from me.  I was right there when they did.  I

17     saw this myself.  It's just that I don't really have a good head for

18     dates at all.  It's simply awful.  It's very difficult.  I keep having

19     nightmares about this.  You can't begin to imagine what I've seen.

20        Q.   Well, ma'am, for purposes of my questioning, you don't have to

21     remember dates.  You just have to remember sequence of events.  And I

22     think it's very specific that you would say Ms. Zukic's car was taken the

23     day before these gentlemen were taken to the river and killed.

24        A.   I may have said that, but later on when I managed to focus, when

25     I gave my statement and managed to focus.  Was it ten days?  Was it

Page 2801

 1     before?  I really can't remember the date.  I can't for the life of me.

 2     Behka was killed first and then those people were taken away, and then

 3     this incident took place.

 4        Q.   Well, ma'am, those people being taken away was your husband.  I

 5     would assume that you'd remember very clearly the morning your husband

 6     was taken away.  Wouldn't that be true?

 7        A.   That's true.  I remember that morning, don't I.  It was just on

 8     the eve of Bajram when animals are slaughtered.  I waited for my husband.

 9     He was supposed to get home for breakfast.  I prepared breakfast.  I was

10     leaning over the bannister on our terrace to see when he would arrive,

11     but what actually happened is Milan got there first, before my husband

12     was back for breakfast.  He took my husband away and Karaman Ramiz and

13     Ahmed, Kasapovic Ahmed.

14        Q.   But, ma'am, you should also know very well when the death of

15     Behija Zukic occurred because you in fact saw her body and saw it taken

16     away in a car; correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.  Of course I did.

18        Q.   Well, ma'am, if the car was taken away the day before the

19     incident at Varda that means that you were, in fact, at Ms. Zukic's house

20     the day your husband was taken away.  Isn't that true?

21        A.   I was there that morning.  It was that morning that I was at

22     Zukic's place to make sure we got the body into that car, and then I went

23     back home, and I tried to whip up some breakfast.  And it was at 10.30

24     that the incident took place involving my husband and the two men.  A

25     minute or two may have gone by, half past 10.00, breakfast-time.  I was

Page 2802

 1     expecting my husband to show up for breakfast.  I was leaning over the

 2     bannister of our terrace, waiting to sight him.

 3        Q.   But, ma'am, according to your earlier testimony in the courtroom

 4     today, you indicated that after Ms. Zukic's vehicle was taken away that

 5     you received a call warning you that they in fact were taking away the

 6     men, being Ms. Zukic's son and husband.  Isn't that true?

 7        A.   That evening.

 8        Q.   And so, ma'am, if you received a call that evening --

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   Ma'am, if you received a call that evening, the evening of

11     Ms. Zukic's death, before the morning that you saw her, before the

12     morning that your husband disappeared and these other seven men were

13     taken out, tell me, ma'am, if you received such a warning call, why would

14     you let your husband go to work?

15        A.   Because they provided every guarantee that our men would be safe

16     going to work.  Stanko Pecikoza, for example, just seven days before this

17     he came to my house.  He had coffee with my husband.  He said, "We have

18     to work on.  No work, no salary.  We have to get some food.  You have to

19     go to work.  You'll be safe."  And that's why my husband went there,

20     because he had received every guarantee that he'd be safe going to work.

21        Q.   But, ma'am, wouldn't it be fair to say that after you witnessed,

22     supposedly the day before your husband was taken away, the seizure of

23     Ms. Zukic's car and in fact knew about her death late that evening, don't

24     you think things had changed enough that you wouldn't let your husband go

25     to work?

Page 2803

 1        A.   It's not like my husband asked me.  He was the boss.  It was his

 2     call, not mine.  Every guarantee was provided.  Not just to my husband,

 3     to all the men.  They said it would be safe going to work, working on.

 4     There was every guarantee.

 5        Q.   What time did your husband go to work that day, ma'am?

 6        A.   7.00.

 7        Q.   This was June, ma'am.  What time was daybreak?

 8        A.   I suppose early morning, 7.00, half past 10.00 was breakfast.

 9     They worked on until 3.00 in the afternoon.  That's how the company

10     operated.

11        Q.   What time did the sun come up?

12        A.   I didn't check.  I didn't check for the sun coming up.  I

13     couldn't; I was asleep.  It was raining that morning.  When I returned

14     from the woods, it was 7.00.  When we got back my husband left for work,

15     and I walked on to Bekija's, as I said.

16        Q.   Well, ma'am, according to your statement, though, it was dawn

17     when you discovered the body of Behija Zukic.  Isn't that true?

18        A.   That morning, yes.  It was after daybreak.  We spent the night

19     there.  We came the next morning.  We returned from the woods.  This lady

20     called me to come with her to Behka Zukic's house.  It was

21     Hajira Memisevic, so that's what I did.

22        Q.   And, ma'am, isn't it true, then, that your husband stayed with

23     you in woods that night?

24        A.   We had spent the night in the woods, but then the next day one

25     had to go to work, didn't one?

Page 2804

 1        Q.   But, ma'am, why would he go to work after you'd actually

 2     witnessed the death of Behija Zukic?

 3        A.   They had told him it would be safe.  We had fled Visegrad.  We

 4     went to Rogatica when the -- when Sabanovic Murat said he would open the

 5     dam.  And then my husband, my two daughters-in-law, and my four

 6     grandchildren left for Rogatica.  I stayed behind.  My mother was old and

 7     sick.  So I got onto a tractor and drove as far as Medjedja, and that's

 8     how we ended up in Rogatica.  Then we went back to Visegrad.  A call had

 9     been published over the radio.  The Serbian radio said we would be free

10     to go back to our homes, that people should go to work, that it was safe.

11     So that's what we did.  We went back to our homes.

12             The Uzice Corps then entered Visegrad.  Some houses burned down.

13     Thank God mine was not among them, but there were various forms of

14     mistreatment that we suffered.

15        Q.   Ma'am, ma'am.  That's not the question I asked you.  Please try

16     and answer the questions that I ask you, okay?

17        A.   If -- if I can get my bearings, okay, yes, that's what I'm trying

18     to do.

19        Q.   Ma'am, I'm asking you to assume that you were, in fact,

20     witnessing Ms. Zukic's body being taken away, and you stated on direct

21     that you spent the night in the woods that night; correct?

22        A.   We spent that night in the woods, yes.  The next morning we went

23     back home.  My husband went to work.  7.00, that's when they started work

24     in the factory.  That was normal.

25             Meanwhile, I went to Zukic's place to see the body and to make

Page 2805

 1     sure the body was driven away.  And right after he'd returned from the

 2     woods my husband just went to work.  That's how it was.

 3        Q.   And so, ma'am, are you telling me that you did not go over to

 4     Ms. Zukic's home at dawn, that you waited until your husband left to work

 5     to go?

 6        A.   Yes.  He went to work, and then later on I went where I went.

 7        Q.   And what time did you -- how long did you stay at Ms. Zukic's?

 8        A.   I don't know that either.  I didn't check my watch.  Time was not

 9     really a consideration.

10        Q.   How long did you stay over there?

11        A.   As I said, I wasn't checking my watch.  I don't know how long.

12     We got the body.  We wrapped the body in a blanket.  The body was put

13     into a car.  It was taken away, and I went back home.

14        Q.   How did you get there?

15        A.   Back home you mean.  Just like that.  It's not that it was

16     difficult or far away.

17        Q.   How far away is Ms. Zukic's home?

18        A.   Two minutes, perhaps.

19             MR. ALARID:  Can we please call up the Prosecution Exhibit 157,

20     please, on the e-court.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Farr?

22             MR. ALARID:  And actually can we have an unmarked photo which was

23     P153 originally.

24             And the reason I'm pausing is there -- okay.  Could the court

25     assistant assist the witness in marking this photo, please?

Page 2806

 1        Q.   And, ma'am, the first thing I'd like you to do, again for a point

 2     of reference, is note the veranda which you were sitting on at the time

 3     you witnessed all these incidents at the Varda factory.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

 5             Mr. Farr.

 6             MR. FARR:  I just ask that the photo not be broadcast since the

 7     witness will be indicating her house.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   And, ma'am, who lives in that white house right next to you?

12             MR. ALARID:  And we could go into private session if this is

13     going to indicate location.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

15          [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2807











11  Page 2807 redacted. Private session.















Page 2808

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3        Q.   Now, ma'am, can you show me where Behija Zukic's home is on this

 4     photograph?

 5        A.   I can't show you that.  I can't see it.  It's -- you go this way

 6     to reach Behija Zukic's house.  I can draw an arrow there to mark the

 7     direction.

 8        Q.   Can you put the little arrow mark, please.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And how much further --

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, we have passed the time for the

12     break, so we're going to break now.

13             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.  Mr. Groome first.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not sure if the Chamber wanted to

18     note the absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert.  I look to the Chamber to ...

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I should have stated at the outset that at the

20     in the absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert, Judge David and I sit pursuant

21     to the provisions of Rule 15 bis.

22             Thank you, Mr. Groome.

23             Mr. Alarid.

24             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   As we left, I believe we had a photograph on the screen.

Page 2809

 1             Now, Witness 042, in referencing -- can you see the picture in

 2     front of you?

 3        A.   I'll just put my glasses on.

 4        Q.   Now, if I understand your markings correctly, on the far right of

 5     the photograph you marked an arrow pointing off the picture to the right,

 6     our right, is in the direction of Ms. Behija Zukic; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   If you could just describe it to me.  And I'd prefer how you got

 9     there personally the morning you saw the body of Behija Zukic.  Describe

10     to me how you went to Behija Zukic's home.

11        A.   I don't think I can describe that, because I took a different

12     road from my home, because there's another path over there.  So that's

13     the one that I took.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25        Q.   And can you tell me how many metres past the photograph is it to

Page 2810

 1     Ms. Behija Zukic's home?

 2        A.   It's further down.  I can't show you that because it's not in the

 3     photograph.  If it were in the photograph, I could point the house out

 4     for you.

 5        Q.   And what I may be more curious about, could you just describe it

 6     ma'am?  How many metres?  How would you walk there, if you went right or

 7     left, straight ahead, that kind of thing, as if you were giving me

 8     directions to go to Ms. Zukic's home.

 9        A.   I'd tell them to go in this direction, because that is the

10     fastest way to get to Behija's house.  And the other thing that I showed,

11     it's a path that goes between the houses, and it's a shortcut of sorts.

12        Q.   How long did you know Behija Zukic?

13        A.   I've known Behija Zukic since we were children, since when I

14     first moved to that village, when we were school-age children.

15        Q.   And so, ma'am, that's why I'm asking you.  Can't you give me just

16     simple directions on how to walk there as if I'd never been there before

17     and you were telling me how to get there?  And I'd like you to describe

18     it.  You don't need to use the photograph for this question.

19        A.   No, no need for the photograph.  This is the town.  You walk by

20     the Drina River, and you arrive here.  You eventually merge here, and

21     then you take this path straight, the one that I showed you, and in no

22     time at all you're outside her house.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2811

 1        Q.   Now I'd like to refer you to a proofing note that we received

 2     related to September 22, 2008.  Do you recall meeting with the Office of

 3     the Prosecutor back September 21st and 22nd of 2008?

 4        A.   Well, whatever you ask me about that I can recall, I'll be happy

 5     to share with you.

 6        Q.   Well, do you remember coming and meeting with the Prosecution in

 7     anticipation of testifying back in September of 2008?  A little over a

 8     month ago, ma'am.

 9        A.   There is something I don't think I understand about this.  Can

10     you try to rephrase that maybe?

11        Q.   Well, ma'am, a little over a month ago did you have a meeting

12     over the course of a couple of days with members of the Prosecution,

13     proofing and where they read to you your original statements in 1993,

14     1994, 1998, and 2008?

15        A.   And month ago.  That's what you're asking me about; right?  Yes.

16     The answer is yes.

17        Q.   And isn't it true that during those proofing sessions you were

18     read all of your statements, all four statements?  Correct?

19        A.   Sure thing.  Just ask away.  I'll tell you everything I know, but

20     I can't read and I can't write.  Just ask me questions.  If I know, I'll

21     be happy to tell you.

22        Q.   Well, according to the proofing statement of September 21st,

23     2008, you had several clarifications, namely regarding your 1993

24     statement and your 1994 statement.  Isn't that true?

25        A.   I don't know which statement you mean.  Maybe you should clarify

Page 2812

 1     that so that I understand which one you mean.

 2        Q.   Well, do you remember giving a statement to the MUP in 1993?

 3        A.   I gave several statements.  I don't know who to, but that was

 4     after we had fled Visoko and then Visegrad.  And it wasn't just me.

 5     Several people were giving these statements all together.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, you have used 37 minutes.  The

 7     Prosecution used 40 minutes.  I'll give you another ten minutes.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, that would be wholly insufficient to do

 9     a cross-examination on this witness.  This witness has four prior

10     statements.  They've all been read to the statement -- excuse me, to this

11     witness.  This witness is not literate.  There were several changes and

12     clarifications to the 1993 statement of which this witness has just

13     touched on, i.e., that she was interviewed in a group.  However, the --

14     other than the omission or adding of names, this witness obviously

15     describes --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You tell me how much time would you need.

17             MR. ALARID:  Those are the toughest questions you ever ask me,

18     Your Honour, because as far as I'm concerned, it always depends on the

19     responsive witness, the clarity of witness's recollection, as well as the

20     willingness to just introduce these statements possibly into evidence.  I

21     would like -- although my assistant just reminded me that I need to

22     tender the marked photo before it erases, and so I would do that.  We

23     would tender the marked photo into evidence.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will admit it, but tell me how much time you

25     need so I can determine how much time to --

Page 2813

 1             MR. ALARID:  At least 45 minutes, Your Honour, if not an hour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Another 45 minutes?

 3             MR. ALARID:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I am not giving that.  You'll get 40

 5     minutes, another 40 minutes.  We have to be disciplined and focused.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, marked photo will become Exhibit

 7     number 1D65, under seal.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Now, ma'am, you do remember giving a statement, though, in

10     December 1993, and as you indicated some other people were present;

11     correct?

12        A.   How long ago was that?  Sixteen years ago.  Do you understand?

13     When was that, 16 years ago?  When was it that I gave that statement?

14        Q.   Well, ma'am, apparently in September 22nd or 21st of 2008, you

15     remembered that Esad Gadzo and Rahima Zulic are two of the people that

16     were with you when you gave the interview; correct?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   So you --

19        A.   Yes, yes.  That's right.

20        Q.   So you remember being there for that statement; correct?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's true.  I was there, and we were together.

22        Q.   And you made some clarifications, but other than the

23     clarifications was everything in that 1993 statement true to the best of

24     your ability?

25        A.   Everything I said.  If that's what's written, and I wasn't there

Page 2814

 1     alone, it's certainly all true.  You see me sitting here today, don't

 2     you?  That's what it's like.  I have children.  I'm not say anything

 3     that's not true.

 4        Q.   Well, in the clarification or the proofing note it indicates that

 5     the list of our neighbours who crossed over to the aggressive -- the

 6     aggressor ranks as noted on page 1 of the B/C/S version and page 2 of the

 7     English was not provided by you, and you think that it was provided by

 8     Esad Gadzo; correct?

 9        A.   No, no.  That's not correct.  That's not true.

10        Q.   So you knew the names of the Chetnik neighbours that had gone

11     over to the aggressor ranks is what you're saying?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And on page 2 of the B/C/S version and page 5 of the English

14     version, you state that you were not the one that gave the names of

15     Brano Savovic, Risto Perisic or Drago Gavrilovic; correct?

16        A.   Yes, correct.  That was Esad Gadzo.  When we gave that statement

17     I remember that he mentioned those names.  I know those people because

18     those people are from Visegrad, but I couldn't remember the names at the

19     time.  That's right.  That's true.

20        Q.   Tell us who those people were from Visegrad?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Farr.

22             MR. FARR:  I was just going to suggest that it might be helpful

23     to read the applicable paragraphs of the statement to the witness in full

24     and then put to her the question.  Given that she can't read, it may be

25     difficult for her to remember the exact context in which these lists of

Page 2815

 1     names were mentioned.

 2             MR. ALARID:  We can do that, Your Honour.  I would ask that we

 3     put 1D10-2087, and it's B/C/S component is 1D10-2099.

 4        Q.   Now, ma'am, while we're waiting for that to come up, though, can

 5     you tell me who Brano Savovic was?

 6        A.   The man from Visegrad.  I know him because I lived in Visegrad

 7     too.  I met all those people, but I didn't spend any time with them.

 8     It's not that I was in touch with those people.  Those were people who

 9     were Chetniks who were off to beat other people.

10        Q.   And isn't it true that Savovic was a leader in the SDS party;

11     correct?

12        A.   I didn't know about parties.  I'm not a politician.  I'm not

13     literate.  I know people when I meet them.  I meet them once, I meet them

14     twice, I know them forever.

15        Q.   And how did you know who Risto Perisic was, ma'am?

16        A.   When Esad Gadzo and I gave a statement, I remember that clearly.

17     He made a statement about those people, those people there, because he

18     worked with them.  He worked in the Partizan Company, and he knew more

19     people than I did.

20        Q.   Did you know him to be the commander of the police?

21        A.   Who?

22        Q.   Perisic.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2816











11  Pages 2816-2818 redacted. Private session.















Page 2819

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7        Q.   Ma'am, when was the last time before -- you stated that you knew

 8     Milan Lukic went to Serbia, correct, after secondary school?

 9        A.   Yes.  I didn't see him around, and I heard that he'd gone to

10     Serbia somewhere.  I don't know where, and I wasn't interested where he

11     went, but all I know is that he wasn't in Visegrad.

12        Q.   Before 1992, when was the last time you personally saw

13     Milan Lukic?

14        A.   I saw him when the war began in Visegrad.  That's when I saw

15     Milan Lukic.

16        Q.   Before the war began, ma'am.  Think back before the war began.

17     When was the last time you believe you saw Milan Lukic?

18        A.   I didn't see him for some time.  I told you when I saw him.  I

19     met him when he was a boy.  That's when I used to see him.  Then when I

20     married I didn't see him at that time.  I saw Sredoje but not Milan.  I

21     know that he went to school in Prelovo.  (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  About how old was Milan when you last saw him

Page 2820

 1     prior to the -- to the incidents in 1992?  You have told us that he was a

 2     boy.  About how old was he?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a skinny boy, Milan Lukic,

 4     when I met him in 1992.  He was very thin.  I'd see him like that, thin.

 5     I'd meet him in uniform.  He wore different uniforms, wasn't always in

 6     the same one.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No.  We are talking now about the last time that

 8     you saw him before 1992.  Before the war.  And you told us that you saw

 9     him when he was a boy, so I'm asking you about how old was he at the

10     time?  About how old was he when you last saw him?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how old would a child be in

12     fourth form?  How old would a child be?  Eight, ten?  I don't know.  He

13     was a skinny little boy.  That's how I knew him.  I would be on the bus

14     with him.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we have -- we have a little marker there,

16     about eight or ten, and he was skinny.  Yes.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   And so your -- Ms. 042, are you saying that the last time when

19     you saw him, eight or ten, you were on the bus?  This was before you were

20     married?

21        A.   Yes, yes, before I was a young girl living with my father.  I

22     hadn't married yet.

23        Q.   All right, ma'am.  I'd like to go back to the 1993 statement and

24     take you through a few things before we get through this.

25             According to the proofing note that the Prosecution gave me, it

Page 2821

 1     indicates that on page 2 of the B/C/S, page 5 of the English -- and if we

 2     could go there on the screen, please, for the Court's reference and the

 3     record.  There is a list of the following citizens, the names of people,

 4     and you indicated -- or at least in the proofing notes that the witness,

 5     you, did not mention the preparation of lists of Muslims for detention

 6     and execution, but you believe that those lists existed.  Is that true?

 7        A.   Yes, that is true.

 8        Q.   And so between -- other than what we've mentioned as earlier

 9     corrections, everything else in that 1993 statement was true; correct?

10     Up to at least page 2 of the B/C/S where we're referring to.

11        A.   Can I say something?  Could you explain what you just asked me

12     and what I said?

13        Q.   Okay.  Ma'am, according to the statement in 1993, there is a

14     reference that lists of Muslims -- there was a preparation of lists of

15     Muslims for detention and execution, and according to the proofing note,

16     you didn't say this directly, maybe one of the other two people present

17     did, but you believe that those lists did exist.  Is that true?

18        A.   I'm not clear what you're asking me again.  The execution of the

19     Muslims, to have them destroyed, is that what you mean?  Is that what

20     you're telling me?  That that exists?  I can't really understand what

21     you're saying.  What have you just been explaining to me?  I can't read.

22     I would like it if I could read what you just said and then I could

23     explain to you, but I'm not quite clear what you mean.

24             Do you mean that they wanted to execute the Muslims?  Is that

25     what you're saying?

Page 2822

 1        Q.   Well, yes, ma'am.  Do you believe that to be true?

 2        A.   Of course.  Of course they did that.  That's been proved that so

 3     many Muslims were executed, killed.

 4        Q.   Well -- and, ma'am, according to the proofing note, page 2 of

 5     B/C/S, page 5 of the English, as -- according to the proofing note, you

 6     did not mention Savovic, Perisic, or Gavrilovic, but I would assume that

 7     you did mention Boban Tomic and Dragan Tomic; is that true?

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Farr.

 9             MR. FARR:  Could the whole sentence --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and Sredoje Lukic and all the

11     others.

12             MR. FARR:  I think it might be easier for the witness to answer

13     the question if the entire sentence beginning with "at the same time" --

14             MR. ALARID:  Sure.

15             MR. FARR:  -- and ending with "to be executed and detained," were

16     read to the witness.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, please do that.

18             MR. ALARID:

19        Q.   Sure.  In the English version, ma'am, and I'm reading it in

20     English and of course it's translated to you, according to page 5 of the

21     English translation it states:  "At the same time Visegrad SDS,

22     Serbian Democratic Party, top officials led by Brano Savovic, aged around

23     40, worked at the municipality in Visegrad, and his associates.

24             "One, Risto Perisic, aged around 40.  He was a professor in

25     Visegrad.  And Drago Gavrilovic, age 40, worked at the hydroelectric

Page 2823

 1     plant.  Three, Boban Tomic.  Four, Dragan Tomic were making lists of the

 2     members of the ethnic Muslim community to be executed and detained."  Did

 3     you say these names?  And Risto Perisic was included.

 4        A.   No, no, no.

 5        Q.   Did you mention Tomic, either Dragan and Boban?

 6        A.   I mentioned Dragan Tomic and that brother of his, Risto,

 7     Esad Gadzo, but it was the SDS, not the Muslims.  They weren't with the

 8     Muslims.  They were the SDS.

 9             MR. ALARID:  And could we please go to page 6 of the English

10     translation.  And, Your Honour, we are still in private session.  I don't

11     believe we need to be.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Open session.

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15             MR. ALARID:  And page 4 of the B/C/S statement is the

16     coordinating page according to the reference.

17        Q.   There's a sentence stating:  "I do not remember the names of the

18     remaining three persons who were killed," and this is in reference to ten

19     people killed June 10th, 1992, at the Varda factory.  And according to

20     the proofing note, you state that you do not understand the question

21     because you do know who was killed, and namely the persons that were

22     killed was your husband, Ahmet and Mr. Kasapovic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And Mr. Karaman; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That's true.

Page 2824

 1        Q.   So regardless, in 1993, the interviewer failed to note that you

 2     knew those people at Varda; correct?

 3        A.   I knew those people, the ones you've just enumerated, Kasapovic,

 4     Ramovic, and my husband.

 5        Q.   But, ma'am, in your proofing note or any statements after,

 6     there's no clarification or mention that you in fact witnessed the

 7     abduction and/or death of these ten people.  Can you explain that?

 8        A.   How do you mean abducted?  They were forced to leave the sawmill

 9     and then were killed.  They were forced.  They weren't abducted.  That's

10     what I'm saying.  I don't know how else to say it.

11        Q.   What I'm saying, ma'am, is there's just simply no mention in the

12     1993 statement that you were a direct eyewitness to these men being

13     forced --

14        A.   I always made that same statement.  The statement is always the

15     same, and it has to be the same, and it cannot be any other way.  I said

16     what I saw.  I couldn't have seen anything else.  And if you were -- had

17     you been where I was, you would have seen the same thing.

18        Q.   But, ma'am, the question I asked is:  Can you explain why the

19     1993 statement of you does not mention that you witnessed the ten people

20     at Varda being killed personally?

21        A.   I have absolutely no idea why it's not there.  It should be.  I

22     always gave the same statement.  I'll never forget that statement,

23     because I am afraid to the present day.  I'm always afraid when I have to

24     make that statement and say those things, and I'll always have that image

25     in my mind, imprinted in my mind and before my eyes.

Page 2825

 1             MR. ALARID:  Could the court assistant please go to page 4 in

 2     B/C/S -- excuse me, page 5 in B/C/S and page 8 in English, please.

 3        Q.   And according to this, ma'am, that you corrected the spelling of

 4     the name from Behra to Behija Zukic, number 1, in terms of -- in

 5     reference to:  "I am also familiar with the fact that more citizens of

 6     Muslim nationality were killed in June 1992.  Their names are as follows:

 7     Number 1, Behra Zukic, aged around 38, killed in her house in Dusce

 8     settlement."

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you corrected the spelling; correct?

11        A.   I don't know how I corrected that.  You have to explain that me.

12     You have to show it to me so that I know what I corrected.

13        Q.   I apologise, ma'am, for -- you corrected how her name was said;

14     correct?

15        A.   Oh, I see.  That you mean.  Some called her Behija.  Others

16     called her Behka, but I think her real name is Behija, and people would

17     use the term of endearment, Behka.

18        Q.   And my next question is, ma'am, if you were given an opportunity

19     to clarify in 2008 and also gave statements in -- in -- excuse me, in

20     your proofing statement September 21st, 2008, why didn't you clarify that

21     there was no mention of you witnessing the -- first the seizure of

22     Ms. Zukic's car right in front of you as you stated earlier on direct?

23        A.   Who says it's always the same statement?  I always said the same

24     thing.  I can't change a statement when that's what I know.  I can't say

25     that Milan went to kill someone else and then to lie and say something

Page 2826

 1     that I didn't see.  I'll never do that.

 2        Q.   Ma'am, can you explain why the 1993 statement doesn't include the

 3     information that you saw Behija Zukic's car taken from her?

 4        A.   How do I know that?  How can I explain that?  I always made the

 5     same statement, always the same statement.  Because I was there on the

 6     spot, so I can't say anything other than what I saw.

 7        Q.   And the only other corrections that you gave, though, with regard

 8     to the 1993 statement were corrections on the killing of Mr. Musevic,

 9     Dervis Musevic and Rusta Musevic, correct?

10        A.   That's correct, but that was afterwards, after the people who

11     were taken.  This was later, perhaps three days later.  After everything

12     that happened and then still later.

13        Q.   And according to your clarification or your proofing note, the

14     only other correction you had related to page 6 B/C/S, page 10 English,

15     was from the list of girls taken away, the witness was only familiar with

16     the two girls Repuhsevici [sic].

17        A.   Repuha, her daughter-in-law and daughter.  We were in

18     Muja Zulcic's house.  We all collected there together.  We thought that

19     we would be safer if there were more of us together, but it was worse,

20     and we were at Muja Zulcic's, Mustafa's.  And then they came from

21     Repusovic and he was expelled and they came from Musa Zulcic, and that

22     evening when he arrived, his daughter was taken away and his

23     daughter-in-law.  They were taken to Vilina Vlas, and I was in the house

24     that very night.  So I'm an eyewitness to that.

25        Q.   And so, ma'am, you had no other clarifications in your September

Page 2827

 1     21st proofing note than the ones we've talked about here today; correct?

 2        A.   I don't know what you mean.  What I just said is the truth.

 3             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, at this point I would tender the

 4     14 December 1993 statement, 1D10-2087 for the English version and

 5     1D10-2099 for the B/C/S version into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit number 1D66 under seal,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             MR. ALARID:  And we -- yes.

10        Q.   Okay, ma'am.  Now the next thing I'd like to refer to and I'd

11     like to pull up 1D10-2106 and 1D10-2111 referencing the January 14th,

12     1994 statement.

13             Now, do you recall giving a statement about a month later?

14        A.   How do you mean?  What year?  You mean this month?

15        Q.   No, January 1994, ma'am.  We just talked about December 1993, and

16     I'm asking you about January 1994.  Just about a month later.

17        A.   I can't remember.  I can't remember January or the date or

18     anything.  All I remember is the experience, what I lived through, where

19     I was, and I remember that very well.

20        Q.   Now, at this point in time you now state that you witnessed the

21     killing of ten Visegrad residents employed at the Varda at around 12.00

22     noon; correct?

23        A.   I always remember that.  I'll never forget that and it's

24     difficult for me to remember it now, too.  I have sleepless nights

25     thinking about it.

Page 2828

 1        Q.   Now, in your 1994 statement you only made two clarifications.

 2     Isn't that true?

 3        A.   I don't know what statement that was.  Explain it to me.

 4        Q.   Well, accord -- let me just -- let me just read from you, and we

 5     can go to -- I guess it would be page 2 in the B/C/S, page 2 in the

 6     English.

 7             Now, according to this statement, the Passat arrived, and

 8     Milan Lukic went into the sawmill, entered it and came out with ten

 9     employees all together.  Isn't that true?

10        A.   What mill?  What mill did you say?

11        Q.   The sawmill, ma'am.

12        A.   Yes, the sawmill.  That's right.  He entered the sawmill, and he

13     came with the people.  He forced them to the gate just like sheep.

14     Ibrisim Memisevic took off his shirt there at the gate, and they took out

15     his documents, keys -- they took out keys, cigarettes, the keys to the

16     cupboards where they kept their uniforms and they threw it all on to that

17     shirt.  Then he made them go down towards the Drina just like sheep.  He

18     herded them like sheep in front of him.  And Osmanagic Hamed, put his arm

19     around his -- threw his arm around his shoulder, threw him down to the

20     Drina and then he spaced them out and started killing them one by one.

21     And when he killed them all, he went back and shot a burst of gun-fire at

22     them.

23        Q.   Now, at them, who's "them," ma'am?

24        A.   Those people there.

25        Q.   Who did he -- who did he shoot at?  It says:  "He went back and

Page 2829

 1     shot a burst of gun-fire at them."  Who do you mean?

 2        A.   Well, my neighbours from the sawmill, the ones he took away.  The

 3     ones that I just told you of, that I enumerated.

 4        Q.   Now, ma'am, according to the proofing note, you made a

 5     clarification that Milan Lukic took all of the prisoners to the Drina at

 6     the same time not in two different groups as it indicates in the

 7     statement, page 2 in B/C/S, page 2 in English.  Is that -- so you

 8     clarified that; correct?

 9        A.   I always said that he took them down to the river all together,

10     and this group of three people had been taken away by him beforehand,

11     before.  Then he came back to fetch the other people and forced them to

12     go down to the river.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19             MR. FARR:  Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

21             MR. FARR:  If we could just redact her husband's name if we're in

22     open session.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, redact that.

24             MR. ALARID:  I apologise, Your Honour.

25        Q.   And so, ma'am, why I'm confused is, is because today on direct

Page 2830

 1     examination you indicated that it was actually seven people at noon and

 2     the three unnamed was, in fact, your husband and the two other gentlemen.

 3     But according to the 1994 statement, it appears that a total of 13 people

 4     were removed from the Varda that morning.

 5        A.   I'll count the people and the names and you write them down.  You

 6     make a note of them.  Can we do it that way?  I'll name the names and you

 7     make a note of them.

 8        Q.   Well, ma'am, I'm just going from the statement that states:  "I

 9     stated earlier that I could only remember seven of the people who were

10     led out and killed.  Their names are as follows:  Ibrisim Memisevic" --

11        A.   Not Ibrahim but Ibrisim.

12        Q.   Yes, ma'am.  Who else?  Why don't you name them for me?

13        A.   There you go, one by one.  Ramiz Karaman, Podzic Mujo,

14     Ahmet Kasapovic, taken at half past 10.00 from the Varda sawmill, taken

15     back into town.  They came back.  I didn't check my watch.  And I always

16     said that.  I didn't check my watch.  Was it half past 11.00?  Was it

17     noon?  The Passat came back the same place as before, parked the same

18     place as before, Milan Lukic got out, went over to the management

19     building.  They were probably having breakfast there.  He picked up all

20     the people, drove them as far as the gate, from the gate onto the Drina

21     riverbank and killed them right there.  I gave a statement about that

22     too.  I stand by that statement.  This is something that I saw with my

23     very own eyes, and nobody can tell me otherwise.

24        Q.   But, ma'am, according to the 1998 -- excuse me, 1994 statement,

25     it appears that in the group at noon there were ten people, three

Page 2831

 1     unnamed, seven you could name.  Do you understand why I'm confused?

 2        A.   I understand what you're saying.  You might find it confusing

 3     that I didn't mention those three names; right?  Is that what you find

 4     confusing?  That's it.

 5        Q.   No, I find confusing that it appears that there's three extra

 6     people that were brought out of the Varda factory, simply three that

 7     can't be named.

 8        A.   I can't say.  Those three men down there, perhaps someone wrote

 9     down.  It's the three that I said including my husband and those other

10     two.

11             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, just a technical note.  Our

12     LiveNote stopped working.  We're using the public screen at this point.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll ask the court deputy to have the technical

14     people look into that.

15             MR. ALARID:

16        Q.   And, ma'am, according to the proofing note of September 21st,

17     2008, the only other clarification you had for the 1994 statement was

18     that Milan Lukic allegedly put his hand -- excuse me, Milan Lukic put his

19     arm around Hamed, not Musan; is that true?

20        A.   I think it was Hamed Osmanagic that he put his hand around as

21     they were headed down towards the Drina, and the others were walking in

22     front of them.

23             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender the January

24     14th, 1994, statement, 1D10-2106, into evidence with the B/C/S statement

25     1D10-2111.

Page 2832

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, and you have about four minutes,

 2     Mr. Alarid.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement is admitted as

 4     Exhibit number 1D67, under seal.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Just a moment, Your Honour.  Just a moment, Judge.

 6        Q.   Can you describe how Milan Lukic looked when he was at the Varda

 7     factory?

 8        A.   I can.  Camouflage uniform.  That's what he was wearing.  Thin.

 9     He wasn't fat, he was thin.

10        Q.   How old did you believe him to be?

11        A.   Over 40, but I don't know exactly.  It's difficult for me to get

12     dates right or someone's age.  I just don't know.  Over 40.  I'm sure he

13     was.

14        Q.   Well, ma'am, if he was eight or ten years old when you were still

15     a girl, right about the time you got married, he would have to be 40,

16     wouldn't he?

17        A.   I said that, too, but I wasn't sure about the age when I said it

18     either.

19        Q.   Well, the only way you could have seen him on the bus would have

20     been had this been before you moved to Visegrad; correct?

21        A.   That's right.  I was a young girl.  Milan was just a small boy.

22     He was school age.  He went to school, and that's how I got to know him.

23     He was watching the cattle because that's what children out in the

24     country did.  He can tell you himself if that's true or not.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You must bring the cross-examination to an end

Page 2833

 1     now.

 2             MR. ALARID:  I was, Your Honour, and the only thing I'd want to

 3     do other than that is admit the witness statement of 17 October 1998 to

 4     the ICTY, which is uploaded as 1D10-2115 and 1D10-2120.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we admit those.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 1D68, under seal, Your Honours.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   And I would also admit the statement of 14 April 2008 as

 9     1D10-2131, and B/C/S version is 1D10-2138, also to the ICTY.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

11             MR. ALARID:  No further questions, Your Honour.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit number 1D69, under

13     seal, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you.

15             Mr. Cepic.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   Let me introduce myself my name is Djuro Cepic.  I defend

21     Mr. Sredoje Lukic.

22        A.   Pleased to meet you.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2834

 1        A.   Thank you very much.

 2        Q.   I would like to ask you to please listen carefully to my --

 3        A.   Well, if you ask me clear questions and I can focus, I'll make

 4     sure to provide good answers for you.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can we please now go back to the situation

 6     when the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad.  At the time you were not in town

 7     yourself.  You only arrived later with your husband and two sons; right?

 8        A.   What do you mean the Uzice Corps entering Visegrad?

 9        Q.   Well, you said that today, didn't you?

10        A.   Yes.  I went to Rogatica and then I was back, but before that I

11     was in Visegrad.  I spent more time in Visegrad than I was away for.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I want to know about the situation when you went back

13     to Visegrad.

14        A.   Yes, yes.  Just clarify everything you've got, and I'll explain

15     how it was.

16        Q.   Is it true that there were considerable numbers of Muslims who

17     were hiding in the woods, many of them in their basements and other

18     places, too, in order to keep safe; right?

19        A.   No, no, no.  That wasn't true.  People went to work.  They never

20     hid anywhere.  There was nothing like that, nothing of the kind you

21     suggest in your question.

22        Q.   Upon your return to Visegrad, did you go back to your family home

23     in Dusce?

24        A.   Yes.  I went back from Rogatica six days later.

25        Q.   Isn't it true that at the time there was a curfew that had been

Page 2835

 1     imposed; right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's true.  There was a curfew.  We couldn't leave or go

 3     anywhere.  People were standing guard.  There were several points at

 4     which they were standing guard.  On the way back from Rogatica, they

 5     harassed us, Where are you off to, where are you going, give us your

 6     weapons.  All sorts of mistreatments.  Let me not even begin to tell you.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And it was because of such mistreatment that you

 8     never left Dusce.  You stayed at home with your family and your husband

 9     would go to work to the Varda factory?

10        A.   Yes, he would always go to work because Behija had received every

11     guarantee that he would be safe.  Stanko Pecikoza, in front of me, told

12     him that he would be safe.  He guaranteed that.

13        Q.   But it was difficult to move about beyond that because there were

14     barricades, check-points.  It was impossible because one wanted to avoid

15     humiliation, didn't one?

16        A.   There was always humiliation.  There was always mistreatment.  If

17     you put all of my experience together, you could get a very good novel

18     out of it, I expect.

19        Q.   That much is clear.  Thank you very much.  That situation

20     continued until the time you left Visegrad; right?

21        A.   Yes.  It was always like that.  Mistreatment down to the last day

22     when I left Visegrad on a convoy.  I went as far as Bikavac.  I spent

23     three days in the woods.  I didn't even dare go home.  Milan Lukic was

24     out to get me.  My mother-in-law told me.  She's dead.  She died.  When I

25   left that group, I went down to the gate to ask Stanko Pecikoza, (redacted)

Page 2836

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.  May I continue?

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20        A.   Sredoje was my friend too.  We were on visiting terms, but my

21     son's friend.  They worked together.  He was like he was my own son.

22     Whenever I gave my son a drink, I'd give Sredoje one.  Whenever I gave my

23     son something to eat, and -- and then he would joke many times.  He'd

24     say, You Muslims should be killed like flies, and we would just laugh,

25     you know, but it was jestful.  He was saying this as a joke, you know.

Page 2837

 1     He said, You Muslims, you should be done away with.  But eventually he

 2     ended up doing what he'd been promising all these years.

 3        Q.   He and your son were great friends, right?

 4        A.   Yes.  They were great friends because my son was a good person.

 5     He was not a wicked person.  He loved Sredoje as though Sredoje were his

 6     own brother.  Why didn't Sredoje do anything for his father, to make sure

 7     Milan didn't kill him, if they were friends?  That's what I'm asking you.

 8        Q.   All right.  We're getting to that, but he was good friends with

 9     your husband too?

10        A.   He was friends with all of us.  We were on visiting terms.  We

11     would go visit them at their home and that sort of thing.  And why did he

12     do that?  I'm asking you that.  Why he do that?

13        Q.   Thank you.  You would help each other out, building your homes,

14     that sort of thing, right?

15        A.   What do you mean?

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18        A.   Yes.  My husband was quite good at this and he was a very good

19     man.  He was famous for that, and we were a famous family for being as

20     good we were.  I think the only thing that really mattered was my husband

21     was a Muslim.  And then sometimes when Bajram came, he would fast.  I

22     think that's what everybody was bothered by, but that was the only thing

23     they could have possibly minded because they never even harmed a fly, not

24     my children, not my husband, not no one.

25        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much.  Can you just keep your answers short.

Page 2838

 1        A.   Yes.  Whatever I know, I'll tell you.  I'll tell you the truth

 2     and nothing but the truth.

 3        Q.   You were furious about Sredoje because he wasn't there to help

 4     your husband and your son later on when they needed help?

 5        A.   Furious, why?  Can you explain that?

 6        Q.   You were furious, you were mad with Sredoje because he wasn't

 7     there to help your son Fikret when Fikret come to grief?

 8        A.   He wouldn't have helped him out.  He would have killed him like

 9     he killed his father, right?

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Previous translation continues] ... are we in

11     private or?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open and I'm making two more redactions.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You just mentioned the son's name.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Mm-hmm.  Oh, I kindly ask redaction of the names,

15     please.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we'll have those redacted.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you very much.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, you remember the statement that you gave,

19     the first statement you made to the OTP, right?

20        A.   You read it for me so I make sure what it was that I said.  And

21     I'm going to tell you one thing:  It's true.  I never said anything but

22     the truth, the very truth.  That's all I ever said.

23             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... Exhibit number

24     1D68, please.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, as we're waiting for the exhibit to come

Page 2839

 1     up, you will agree with this:  When Sredoje came to visit you, there was

 2     always a friendly atmosphere always, full of friendship between your son

 3     and Sredoje Lukic, wouldn't you agree with that?

 4        A.   Yes.  The atmosphere was like that.  But what did Sredoje do, I'm

 5     asking you?  He did what he did.  That's what he did.

 6        Q.   We'll be coming to that later on.  Thank you.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  Maybe it could be easy if I gave ERN number

 8     2D02-0221, please.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, I will read a portion of this to you and

10     then you can comment.

11        A.   Sure.  Whatever I know.  You just need to make it neat for me so

12     I understand.

13        Q.   I would just like to ask you to focus on my questions and answer

14     them.  Can we please have page 3 in the B/C/S.  [Previous translation

15     continues] ... [In English] ... in B/C/S.  Third paragraph in English,

16     fourth paragraph in B/C/S.

17             [Interpretation] You say that driver was sitting in the car.  It

18     was a dark red Passat, right?

19        A.   Which driver?

20        Q.   And you said:  "I assume that the driver was his brother."

21        A.   Sredoje Lukic.

22        Q.   Because they were always together?

23        A.   Yes.  They were always together.

24        Q.   Therefore you will agree with me that you did not see that.  It

25     was merely an assumption on your part, as you state?

Page 2840

 1        A.   I didn't look him in the eye.  I didn't dare to look because as

 2     soon as you had a look at them, they would shoot straight away.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Transcript, transcript.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Transcript, transcript.

 6             MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So for fear of not being yet another victim, you didn't even look

 8     that way, did you?

 9        A.   No, not at the car, not at the Fico.  I saw Milan walk up to the

10     car, Dzemo Zukic leave the car, and Behka, Behija Zukic, and then we all

11     walked on together towards Varda.

12        Q.   But out of fear, you didn't see the driver in the Fico, in the

13     other red car?

14        A.   Yes.  He was sitting in the Fico, in the Fiat car.

15        Q.   Madam, but there's none of that in your statement.  How come all

16     the changes today?

17        A.   I always said the same thing.  I don't know why it's not in the

18     statement.  What I say, I maintain.  That's how I was brought up.

19        Q.   I'm asking you about the Varda factory, and in front of the

20     Varda, the first day of the Bajram holiday?

21        A.   On the eve of Bajram.

22        Q.   Yes, on the eve of Bajram.  You didn't see who was in the

23     vehicle, and you clearly said that in your statement.  Isn't that right?

24        A.   I didn't personally see.  Two men, Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic

25     were driving the Passat from Dzemo Zukic and nobody else ever drove that

Page 2841

 1     car.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  But you personally didn't see them?

 3        A.   I did.  Personally from my terrace I saw it.

 4        Q.   We'll come to that, but thank you.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have --

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Were you watching from the terrace or from the

 7     veranda?

 8        A.   From the terrace.  I indicated with an arrow where I was.  I had

 9     several terraces, not just one.  Sredoje Lukic knows very well how many

10     terraces I had.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have 1D69, or if it's easier to find in

13     e-court system 2D02-0256, the witness statement from 14th of April, 2008.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, do you remember that you talked to the

15     representatives of the OTP in April?

16        A.   I don't know who I talked to.  I talked to lots of people because

17     I talk to everybody.  I don't know what the date was.  I don't remember

18     any of that.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... [overlapping

21     speakers]... please.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll read it out, the last sentence in paragraph

23     9 of your statement.  You're describing everything that happened and then

24     you say:  "Milan Lukic entered the car.  The driver was there too, but I

25     did not see who that was.  They drove by my house on their way towards

Page 2842

 1     town."

 2             Has that refreshed your memory, madam?

 3        A.   Well, what did you say?  When they got to the gate to take the

 4     people away?  Is that what you said?

 5        Q.   I'll read the whole paragraph if you find it easier.

 6        A.   Well, of course it's easier.  Now I'm telling you what I'm

 7     telling you and that's how it was.  That's how I must say it.  So there's

 8     no need looking at me.  It was like it was just as I'm sitting here now.

 9        Q.   Madam, just short answers, please.  You say:  "I saw Milan Lukic

10     enter the gate and saw Rasim Karaman exit the administration building."

11        A.   Ramiz Karaman is his name.

12        Q.   And you can see the administration building from your terrace.

13     Isn't that right?

14        A.   You can see everything, absolutely everything.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And then you go on to say that Milan Lukic told Ahmed

16     and Ramiz to wait by the car, and then you state that Milan Lukic got

17     into the car and that a driver was there, but you didn't see who it was.

18             Now let's focus on the administrative building as you see it.

19        A.   Yes, let's focus on that, and I'll tell you how it was, and you

20     listen to me carefully because it's the way I say it.  You weren't there.

21     I was there and I know exactly how it was.

22        Q.   May I ask you something, madam?

23        A.   Yes.  You can ask me and you can ask me to repeat what I said and

24     I'll repeat exactly how it was.  You want me to say it one more time to

25     make it even clearer?

Page 2843

 1        Q.   Madam, please, I'm here to ask the questions.

 2        A.   You're asking me questions I don't understand and I keep telling

 3     you the same thing, the way it must be.  Now you're putting me right, but

 4     it's not how you want to hear it, it's how I'm saying it.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, I have to say that we haven't got

 6     LiveNote system.  Actually, my assistant haven't got that system.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There seems to be another technical problem with

 8     the LiveNote.  I'll ask the technical people to attend to that.  Let us

 9     proceed.

10             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we have in e-court

11     system P157, please.  Could we have zoom out, please.  Do you recall a

12     different exhibit 1 -- P153, please.  We have a better view.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, we can see Dusce here?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We can see your house, the big house.  Now, would you point, if

16     you can, and draw the direction of the administrative building?

17        A.   Yes, I can do that.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Now, that small little house next to the building, is that what

21     you mean?

22        A.   No.  This is the office building.

23        Q.   And what -- where's the administrative building where the other

24     people are?

25        A.   Over here.

Page 2844

 1        Q.   How far is it from here?

 2        A.   Well, not far.  The gutter is over here and that's where the

 3     people were taken.  Now, let me show you where he took my husband.

 4        Q.   Listen to my question carefully.

 5        A.   I am not literate.  I'm telling you what I know.

 6        Q.   You mentioned the administration building on the Varda factory.

 7        A.   The Varda factory was further away.  I just mentioned these

 8     offices here from where my husband was taken, but the furniture factory

 9     was down, further down where Milan took the Passat from Dzemo Zukic and

10     then you have the sawmill.  That's further off.

11             MR. CEPIC:  Could we have an exhibit number for this photo,

12     please.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you want to have that admitted?

14             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, please.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We admit it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number 2D21, Your Honours.

17             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you very much.  Could we have -- zoom in on

18     this photo, and the house, if possible, as big as possible.

19             Your Honour, if I may know what time will be break, just to

20     consider my questions.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Five minutes.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Madam, now we can see your house better.  Can we

24     zoom in a bit more?

25        A.   Thank you.  I can see it very well too.

Page 2845

 1             MR. CEPIC:  If it's possible on the right side.  Just a little

 2     bit more, one centimetre or two.  Thank you very much.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Now we can see your house there.  Could you tell

 4     me -- I can see two terraces.  Am I right that you have an upper and a

 5     lower terrace?

 6        A.   Yes, you are right.

 7        Q.   Were they red painted metal railings to the terraces?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right, red painted metal.

 9        Q.   And what about the door, the door going out into the terrace, was

10     it a wooden door?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were they wooden doors?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What about the upper storey where that window is just under the

15     roof?  Were they wooden boards or not?

16        A.   No, they weren't wooden boards.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you make a circle around the upper terrace to

18     your house?

19        A.   You mean this one up here?

20        Q.   Yes.  Is that where you were and observed things?

21        A.   Yes, and that's where I lived.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Would you put a B next to the balcony, just beside

23     it?

24        A.   I can't write anything.

25        Q.   All right.  An X then, please.

Page 2846

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   That's fine.

 3        A.   I don't know if I managed to mark that properly.

 4        Q.   So that's the upper terrace where you were standing and watching

 5     everything?

 6        A.   Yes, when my husband was taken and all the rest of it.

 7             MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues]...

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  It's admitted as 2D22, under seal, Your Honours.

10             MR. CEPIC:  May I ask Madam Usher to distribute this.  Could we

11     have one for witness, please?

12             MR. FARR:  Perhaps we could just go into closed session,

13     Your Honour.

14             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, private session.

16             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you very much.

17           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2847











11  Pages 2847-2852 redacted. Private session.















Page 2853

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23        Q.   [Interpretation] While we're waiting for this to come up, madam,

24     let me ask you this:  Are you not a member of the association known as

25     Women Victims Of The War led by Bakira Hasecic?

Page 2854

 1        A.   No, that's not true.  I'm not a member of any association.  All I

 2     want to know in this world is my household and my children.  I am a

 3     homemaker.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2855

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Farr:

20        Q.   Witness, on cross-examination you were asked some questions about

21     statements that you gave in Visoko.  Can you describe for the Court the

22     conditions under which those statements were given?

23        A.   I gave some statements.  Some people came over, several different

24     groups, to see how we lived as refugees and for us to tell them more

25     about how exactly this happened, who was killed, who lost whom.  So we

Page 2856

 1     gave statements about all of these.  And it wasn't just me.  There were

 2     thousands and thousands of souls from Foca, from Visegrad, from all over,

 3     Visoko, Munstra [phoen].  Thousands and thousands of souls.  We were

 4     packed like sardines in a tin can.  We had nowhere to even lie down.  We

 5     would lie down on the floor.  My kidneys were ruined, and I had no idea

 6     at the time what had become of any of my nearest and dearest.  Just to

 7     remember that day, we had to leave on convoys and how we were mistreated

 8     in all sorts of ways.

 9        Q.   If I could just direct you more specifically to the occasions

10     upon which you gave these statements.  Do you remember how many people

11     were present as witnesses when you were giving these statements?

12        A.   Believe it or not, there would have to be 20, 30 people even in

13     those halls, what have you, rooms.  Those were classrooms in a school,

14     and then depends on how many people happened to sit in on an interview,

15     and then everybody had something to say.  They gave us paper to write

16     things down with a pen.  That's how it was.

17             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, could we move into open session if we're

18     currently in private session?

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Open session, yes.

20                           [Open session]

21             MR. FARR:

22        Q.   You said that there were many people --

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. FARR:

25        Q.   Witness, you said that there were many people present in these

Page 2857

 1     interviews.  Was information taken down from all of these many witnesses?

 2        A.   Believe me, I don't know.  I was hardly in touch with anyone.  I

 3     had my grandchildren.  I socialised with them.  I spent my time with

 4     them, not anyone else.  I'm sure there are more people who should make

 5     statements.  I'm sure there are people who refused to make statements

 6     because they're afraid.  I'm not afraid.  I stop at nothing.  I am here

 7     to tell the truth because that is my only motive.  My only ambition, to

 8     tell the truth.  And I'd never talk about stuff that I didn't see.  There

 9     were other people who were killed in Musici and other villages, but I

10     wasn't there, was I?  So I'm not going to be telling you about that.  I'm

11     going to be telling you about my village.

12             MR. FARR:  Could the court officer bring up Exhibit 1D66, the

13     B/C/S version on the left side of e-court and Exhibit 1D69 on the right

14     side of e-court.  Sorry, the English version of 1D69, and zoom in on the

15     signatures at the bottom of each page.

16        Q.   Witness, can you see the two statements on the screen in front of

17     you?

18        A.   Yes.  I don't know what it says though.  I see, but I can't read

19     it because I didn't go to school.  I see that I signed this.

20        Q.   And which of those two statements did you sign?

21        A.   This one.

22        Q.   Would that be the statement on the right or the left?

23        A.   Yes, yes, on the right.

24        Q.   And the signature on the statement on the left, is that your

25     signature?

Page 2858

 1        A.   No.  I don't know how to do that.  I can't sign a document like

 2     that.  I didn't go to school.  This is as much as I learned, just to mark

 3     it, as it were.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. FARR:  Could the court officer please bring up Exhibit 1D67

 6     on the left side.  And it looks like it's actually been brought up on the

 7     right side of e-court, which is fine, but could we zoom in on the

 8     signature at the bottom of the page.

 9        Q.   Witness, looking at the signature on the bottom of the page on

10     the right side in e-court, is that your signature?

11        A.   No.  I wasn't able to sign it like that.  Maybe I gave someone my

12     ID, because we were several witnesses there when these things were

13     signed, but I don't know.  I told you there were several of us in a room

14     each time the statements were given and when we told our story.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, you've been wearing eye-glasses in court

16     today.  Do you use those glasses to see things up close or at a distance?

17        A.   Up close, up close.  When something needs doing back at home, for

18     example, if I'm cooking lunch, then I have to put my glasses on.

19        Q.   What was the condition of your eyesight in 1992?

20        A.   Great, couldn't be better.  I was exceptionally healthy.

21     Sredoje Lukic can tell you what I looked like at the time.  I never

22     thought that anything like this would strike me.

23             MR. FARR:  I think Mr. Cepic may have something to say.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. --

25             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave I think last two or

Page 2859

 1     three questions are not raised from the cross-examination.  This is

 2     something different.

 3             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, cross-examination focused on the ability

 4     of the witness to accurately observe events at a distance, so I think

 5     that it does in fact arise out of cross.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree, yes.

 7             MR. FARR:  Could we move into private session for a few

 8     questions?

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2860











11  Pages 2860-2866 redacted. Private session.















Page 2867

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Simply in a response to the designation, I believe

 9     that it's proper for viva voce; namely, not just the points Mr. Groome

10     brought up but also we were disclosed as part of the batch that on the

11     26th of October, 2008, there is an additional witness statement which

12     is -- involves clarifications of the 2000 statement that go into quite a

13     bit of detail and quite a bit of changes, in fact.  And considering the

14     fact that you need to lay a foundation that earlier statements would be

15     the same as if written today, simply that clearly they weren't as of

16     October 26th as several -- these clarifications were made to her

17     statement and she signed this statement as well, but I think all -- all

18     in all, it goes to show that the earlier statements needed clarification.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is the time estimate for this witness?

20             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, if we were permitted to call her 92 ter

21     it would be approximately 30 minutes.  If we were required to call her

22     viva voce, I believe it would probably be about two hours.

23             And just to respond to what Mr. Alarid said, I was going to make

24     a submission on this.  The witness had several clarifications to her one

25     ICTY statement.  We endeavoured, in order to save time in court, to

Page 2868

 1     prepare that as an addendum statement with clarifications.  I'd be

 2     perfectly happy to lead those additional clarifications viva voce as part

 3     of a 92 ter process, or to submit that one page addendum statement which

 4     contains the minor clarifications.  So the intention was to seek to admit

 5     her ICTY statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter and then to seek to admit the

 6     few clarifications that she made to that statement in order to facilitate

 7     things and make the process as efficient as possible.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And that would be half an hour?

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  If the statement were accepted as such, yes,

10     Your Honour, that would be approximately half an hour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And you will have an opportunity to

12     cross-examine, of course, under 92 ter, both counsel.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will hear the evidence under 92 ter.

16             Let the witness make the declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit.  And you may begin, Ms. Marcus.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Could I request that the

21     pseudonym sheet be shown to the witness.

22                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VG-064

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

25        Q.   Madam Witness, can you hear me clearly?

Page 2869

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You've been granted protective measures of a pseudonym and your

 3     face -- and your face is being distorted for the purposes of these

 4     proceedings.  Can you confirm that your name and date of birth appear on

 5     the paper in front of you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Could you kindly sign that paper.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  I'd like to request that the court officer to show

10     that to the Defence and to the Chamber, and then I'd like to tender that

11     into evidence under seal, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It will become Exhibit number P158, under seal,

14     Your Honours.

15             MS. MARCUS:  I'd also like to request the court officer to please

16     provide the witness with a reference sheet.

17        Q.   Madam Witness, the paper in front of you will contain the names

18     of other persons who have also been granted protective measures by this

19     Tribunal.  Therefore, I request that if you were to name them in your

20     testimony that you kindly use their pseudonym that you see on the page in

21     front of you rather than their names.  Do you understand?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   VG-064, can you tell us where you were born?

24        A.   I was born in Dobrun, Visegrad municipality.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up,

Page 2870

 1     please, and approach the microphones.  Thank you.

 2             MS. MARCUS:

 3        Q.   Madam Witness, you've been requested to -- if you could, to move

 4     forward slightly so the microphones can pick up what you're saying.

 5        A.   Yes.  Can you hear me now?

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Are you married?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you have any children?

 9        A.   I do, two.

10        Q.   What is your profession?

11        A.   I'm a saleswoman, salesperson.

12        Q.   Do you recall giving a statement?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   To the -- do you recall giving a statement to the Tribunal on

15     Sunday, the 26th of October, 2008?  That would be yesterday.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Was that -- I see my colleague on his feet?

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Cepic.

19             MR. CEPIC:  I apologise but we haven't got -- received any

20     statement.  We just received the proofing note.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

22             MR. CEPIC:  And that was yesterday.  Thank you.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, the draft was sent yesterday at the end

24     of the proofing session, immediately after receiving the information.

25     And in the e-mail that the proofing note was attached to, we informed

Page 2871

 1     Defence counsel that we would be formalising it into an addendum

 2     statement, again in an effort to expedite the process of making the minor

 3     clarifications and saving the time for the substantive matters.  So this

 4     morning the statement was finalised and signed, translated into B/C/S and

 5     sent to the Defence this morning.

 6             May I continue, Your Honours?

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  I'm really cogitating on this recurring

 8     problem.  So they have -- the statement was in fact sent to them.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is a proofing note but

10     because -- it's basically a proofing note -- but in order to save -- I

11     see we're using court time now discussing it, so I'll be happy to lead

12     these corrections live, but they're corrections like instead of the word

13     "to" it should be "toward."  And in order to just expedite the process

14     and save the precious 30 minutes for the substance, we just prepared it

15     in the form of a signed statement which we'll seek to admit with the

16     statement.  That's all.  It's just clarification.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well, yes.

18             MS. MARCUS:

19        Q.   So, Madam Witness, did you give a statement to the Tribunal

20     yesterday, the 26th of October, 2008?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   Was the statement read back to you in the Bosnian language?

23        A.   Yes, it was.

24        Q.   Did you sign that statement?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 2872

 1        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions now which you were asked

 2     in providing that statement, would your answers be the same?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender the statement

 5     of the 26th of October, 2008, into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2873

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             MS. MARCUS:  -- something that would have come in private

 8     session.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

10             MS. MARCUS:

11        Q.   Madam Witness, did you give a statement to investigators of the

12     ICTY on the 14th of May and 13th of June of the year 2000?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review that statement in the

15     Bosnian language before coming to court today?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Could I request the court officer to please call up

18     65 ter number 124.  And that would be e-court page 5.  I'm sorry, let's

19     begin -- let's begin on the front cover.  I'm sorry.  Just the front

20     page.

21        Q.   VG-064, do you see the page on the screen in front of you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you see your date of birth there?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is that your correct date of birth?

Page 2874

 1        A.   No.  It says the 12th of October, and I was born on the 17th of

 2     October.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go now to page 4 in the English.  To the

 4     bottom paragraph on that page.

 5             Madam Witness, do you see the paragraph that begins with the

 6     words:  "The last time I went there was on the 25th of June 1992"?

 7        A.   What did you say?  I didn't understand you because the screen was

 8     moving.

 9        Q.   Do you see a paragraph at the bottom of that page which begins

10     with the words:  "The last time I went there was on 25th of June 1992"?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   Can you read the line right after that?

13        A.   Yes.  "On that day, I was supposed to leave Visegrad on a convoy

14     to the small town of Visoko."  It should say to Kladanj and Olovo, not

15     Visoko.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please turn to page 7 of the English

17     statement.  The first paragraph.  I'm just waiting for the corresponding

18     Bosnian version.

19             Madam Witness, in the top paragraph you say the words:  "At that

20     time, Fikreta was two months pregnant."

21        A.   No, she was four months pregnant.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could we turn to page 8, please, in the English.

23     Down to paragraph five.

24             Madam Witness, there's a line on this page which says:  "Then

25     Milan Lukic entered the house where we were detained and took out --" I'd

Page 2875

 1     like to go into private session.  Sorry.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session, yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2876











11  Page 2876 redacted. Private session.















Page 2877

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

15             MS. MARCUS:

16        Q.   Your statements have been entered into evidence, and thus, I will

17     not be going through the entirety of your experiences during this court

18     hearing.  However, I will ask you a few questions on a few matters which

19     you raise in your statement.

20             Excuse me one moment.

21             In the spring of 1992 when the war began, where did you reside?

22        A.   I lived in the village of Musici, Visegrad municipality.

23        Q.   Where is Musici in relation to the town of Visegrad?

24        A.   It's five kilometres away from Visegrad towards Visegradska Banja

25     or spa.  And you turn left there -- well, anyways, it's five kilometres

Page 2878

 1     away from Visegrad.

 2        Q.   Did you live with anyone?

 3        A.   I lived with my husband and two children.

 4        Q.   Now, I don't know if the statement is still up, but I would like

 5     to return to this statement.  It's P159.  Could I request e-court page 5

 6     in the English and page 4 in the Bosnian, B/C/S.  In the middle of the

 7     page, please.

 8             Madam Witness, I'd like to ask you to read for us two paragraphs

 9     from your statement.

10             MS. MARCUS:  And for this I'm afraid, Your Honours, we'll need to

11     go into private session again.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

15             MS. MARCUS:

16        Q.   Please begin with the paragraph starting:  "In the late afternoon

17     on the same day, another group ..."  Do you see where I'm referring to?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Please read -- please kindly read that paragraph and the

20     following one.

21        A.   "In the late afternoon on the same day, another group of 15 armed

22     men and one woman arrived in the village of Musici.  The group was

23     driving a BMW, a VW, our own car, 128, and a Yugo.  The men had black

24     painted faces and some were wearing a fur hat with a cockade on, the

25     so-called Subara.  They also brought with them a black flag with a skull

Page 2879

 1     and bones.

 2             "The members of the group ordered all inhabitants of the village

 3     to gather in the house of my father-in-law (redacted).  The leader of

 4     the group gave a speech there.  First he introduced himself as

 5     Milan Lukic and then he introduced his group and said, This is my police.

 6     Then he asked about the shooting from the village of Musici on police

 7     patrols passing by the village.  There were some verbal threats too.

 8     Then he counted us.  I don't remember how many we were.  And finally he

 9     promised to protect us.  He had blue jeans on and a black shirt.  He also

10     had a cap with a skull and -- on his head.  Well, it wasn't a cap, it was

11     a hat, and he had black stripes on his face."

12        Q.   In the section you just read, you mentioned that the group came

13     in a BMW, a Volkswagen, your own car, and a Yugo.  Are those all the cars

14     that you recall seeing?

15        A.   I saw -- well, there was Behija Zukic's Passat in a burgundy

16     colour, but it's not mentioned there.  And that car was driven by

17     Milan Lukic personally.

18        Q.   How do you know --

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Marcus, I'm sorry to stop you but it's after

20     the time for us to break.  So we're going to adjourn now and we'll resume

21     tomorrow at 2.15.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day

24                           of October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.