1 Monday, 27 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have some matters to deal with before we hear
6 evidence from the witnesses.
7 On the 4th of September, the Prosecution made use of a logbook or
8 medical protocol book from the Visegrad health centre during its
9 examination of Witness VG-032. On the 3rd of October, the Prosecution
10 notified the Chamber that there was some confusion as to whether the
11 entire logbook had been admitted into evidence as Exhibit P68 or whether
12 only two pages of the logbook comprised Exhibit P68.
13 The logbook in question contains some 400 pages and was admitted
14 in the Vasiljevic case. However, in the Chamber's view, most of the
15 information in it is irrelevant to the present case.
16 In order to clarify the record, the Chamber rules that the pages
17 of the logbook which contain entries made on the 7th of June, 1992, are
18 admitted into evidence as Exhibit P68 under seal. These pages which are
19 unredacted are those numbered as 0545-2073 and 0545-2074, and these pages
20 in their redacted form are admitted as Exhibit P70.
21 I take this opportunity to clarify that Exhibit 1D39 only
22 comprises pages of the logbook which contain entries of 14th June 1992.
23 These pages are those numbered as 0545-2111 and 0545-2112.
24 The parties will recall that the question of in-court or doc
25 identification has arisen in this case on some occasions. I would like
1 written submissions from the parties by the -- I see here the 31st of
2 October, but that can't be right.
3 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'd like written submissions from the
5 parties by the 31st of October on how in-court or doc identification is
6 to be treated. The submission should take account of the decisions of
7 the Appeals Chamber, as well as case law from other jurisdictions.
8 The Trial Chamber is particularly interested in the following
9 questions: One, what constitutes in-court or doc identification? Two,
10 does it include a situation where the witness knows the accused before
11 the incident? Three, in considering how it is to be treated, an issue
12 arises as to whether doc identification goes to weight or admissibility,
13 so I'd like submissions on that. Four, in circumstances where it is
14 determined that there is a case of doc identification, how is that
15 evidence to be treated on a no-case submission under Rule 98 bis. In
16 particular, should the Defence be called on to respond to that evidence.
17 An issue here is that in the regime for no-case submissions at the
18 Tribunal, in order to succeed one has to show that there is no evidence
19 capable of supporting a conviction on a count as a whole and that seldom
20 is the case. In the instant case, a point to be considered is whether
21 there is evidence other than the doc identification supporting a count.
22 When I mentioned earlier the date of the 31st of October for the
23 submissions, I paused because I thought it wasn't enough time, but on
24 reflection I think it is enough time.
25 Mr. Alarid, I see -- I am informed that you are -- you're now
1 fortified, much better resourced, and I see you smiling. You have a
3 MR. ALARID: I do, Your Honour, and that was going to be the
4 first thing -- that was going to be the first order of business is, of
5 course, to introduce as formal co-counsel Mr. Dan Ivetic to the Court as
6 he has been appointed as of 5.00 p.m. Thursday.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. ALARID: So we are fortified to a certain degree, although
9 are still making concessions with our team due to the fact of we're level
10 1 at this juncture and still needing resources in the field, and so it's
11 still a problem, Your Honour. I can't say it's been resolved, but I at
12 least have the support in the courtroom and I think the Court wanted for
13 purposes ever continuity but it still is a process.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the Chamber takes the opportunity to
15 welcome Mr. Ivetic, and we note the familiarity that he has with the
16 case, and we are confident that he will be of tremendous help to the
18 The third matter I wanted to raise --
19 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was saying that I wanted to raise another
21 matter, and it has to do with the motion filed by Milan Lukic to suppress
22 the testimony for failure of timely disclosure with Confidential Annexes
23 A and B. This is in reference to the testimony of VG-114.
24 Mr. Groome, you will notice that in the motion, in paragraph 3
25 there are references to six batches of disclosures that have been made
1 within a week, and the Chamber would be assisted to be informed what
2 these batches relate to. We would be in a better position to decide on
3 the motion if we were informed what the batches of evidence are -- relate
4 to and so we would want you to give us that information at the very
5 earliest opportunity.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, when this issue first arose, I gave the
7 Chamber some information. I can recall for the Chamber what I advised
8 the Chamber at that stage, but I will take advantage of the first break
9 to get more detailed information, but much of the -- much of the
10 documents related to prior reports of the -- of the experts. If you
11 recall, that week there were several experts that testified. And some of
12 it was also in relation to -- there was some of these reports that we did
13 not believe were disclosable under the rules but nevertheless may have
14 been of interest to the Defence, and we sent them a letter stating this
15 and saying we would make that material, although we did not see it as
16 disclosable material, if it was information -- additional information
17 that they wished to see, we would make that available to them, and both
18 counsel accepted that offer and asked to see that material. And some of
19 that material is also included in -- in that -- that large amount of
20 disclosure that was made that week, but, Your Honour, I can give more
21 precise information over the course of the break and report after the
22 first break.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We'd like more precise information. Thank
24 you very much, Mr. Groome.
25 Those are the matters I wanted to deal with before the witness
1 was called. Would you please call the witness now.
2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. Mr. Alarid.
4 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. We have additional preliminary
5 matters and sort of in the same vein as the final question to Mr. Groome.
6 You know, one of the problems that's been is that we've been forced into
7 this timetable of getting ready for the defence and also keeping up with
8 this schedule of trial which has also been mixed up quite a bit by
9 refiling of witness lists and amending of the witness lists and
10 subsequent disclosures. I will put the Court on notice that just on
11 Thursday, just after 5.00 p.m., we get an e-mail saying shortly will be
12 in your locker batch 47. Well, batch 47 constitutes 53 documents, and of
13 those 53 documents that actually consist of over a thousand pages, and
14 the thousand pages is -- some of them are for the newly tendered
15 handwriting expert, but all of these -- and this not exhaustive because
16 we've actually gone through these and put 19 of the 53 documents that
17 were in this stack away in binders that were set for the witnesses to be
18 called during this -- as we restart the case.
19 Now, the thing is these are all things that could have been given
20 to us at the beginning of the two weeks, maybe that Friday afternoon that
21 we had that short hearing, but instead it's until after business on
22 Thursday right before the weekend. And so what we've had to do this
23 weekend is go through as much as we could, file as much away in the
24 witness binders that we could, and we still have all of this to go
25 through. Some of it's in B/C/S. Some of it's English with no B/C/S
1 translation. Some of it's English with no B/C/S. And so it puts us at
2 an incredible disadvantage because of these 53 documents several of them
3 are considered to be Rule 68. Some of them are considered to be Rule 66,
4 and we're dealing with this all at the twelfth hour. And it's tantamount
5 to, you know, a large insurance firm back in the States papering people
6 at the last minute and giving you that needle in the haystack to find,
7 if -- unless there's enough time reasonably to go through the documents,
8 and I mean this is a lot of paper work to go through and shuffle
9 especially with our staff as limited as it is.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, why are you drowning the Defence
11 with paper?
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there's certainly no intentional effort
13 to drown anyone. Our only intention is to abide by the requirements that
14 the Rules impose on us.
15 With respect to the handwriting expert, the Chamber hasn't even
16 added him or granted us the right to add him yet, so we thought -- our
17 thought we were being as cooperative as possible as soon as we identified
18 him as a potential witness.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's the timeliness that's the issue. Why do
20 they get it so late and so many pages?
21 MR. GROOME: With respect to the handwriting expert, which I
22 think is an awful large portion of this, we've just filed a motion last
23 week to -- or I forget the exact date when it was filed but we filed a
24 motion to add him. I asked my staff to go through and check -- do and
25 computer search on him, see what other cases he's testified in and to
1 gather that and to present that to the Defence as soon as possible. The
2 other material that Mr. Alarid is referring to I'm not exactly sure. I
3 know there was no effort to intentionally give it to him after the
4 weekend. In fact, when the witnesses that are testifying today, when
5 they made statements that we thought were discoverable after they arrived
6 here in The Hague, that was -- every effort was made to contact me at my
7 home to authorise the disclosure to Mr. Alarid yesterday evening. So
8 we've made every effort to get material to Mr. Alarid as soon as
9 possible. If we have failed somewhere, I would want to know about that
10 and I'll do whatever I can to correct it but --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is a distinction between 68 material and
12 66(A)(ii) because 66(A)(ii) ought really to have been disclosed long ago.
13 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, with respect to the handwriting,
14 let's really think about what we're speaking about. We're talking about
15 a handwriting expert who is not on the witness list yet, so I made
16 efforts last week to try to --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the interpreters. Thank
18 you very much.
19 MR. GROOME: I apologise -- to assist Mr. Alarid even before the
20 Prosecution case to identify the Rule 66 material for the handwriting
21 expert and to provide that as soon as possible. That is a large part of
22 what Mr. Alarid is now referring to. The other materials that he's
23 referring to, I'm not even precisely sure whether there's any Rule 66
24 material related to these two witnesses. I will say to the Chamber that
25 as soon as we are able, and we're competing with other trial cases to
1 have computer searches done of the 7 million-plus documents, if in those
2 searches additional material is revealed that is considered Rule 66, we
3 disclose that immediately, Your Honour. So again I will take a look at
4 exactly what was disclosed on Thursday, but I can assure the Chamber
5 there's been absolutely no intentional effort to -- to put Mr. Alarid at
6 a disadvantage. Every effort has been made to get him this material as
7 soon as possible.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I could just add to that, I could
9 maybe clear things up with at least the handwriting expert portion of it.
10 If we could simply know from the Prosecution if they will be doing this
11 again Friday of this week because the time-limits for the objections
12 under 94 bis to the expert of course flow from when the material is
13 provided to the Defence, so we need to know that in order to plan our
14 resources. As for the other documents, I do have the index that was in
15 disclosure batch 47 and again --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down for
17 interpretation. Slow down for the interpreters and, please, the
18 interpreters could not follow at this speed. And please repeat the last
19 three sentences. Thank you very much.
20 MR. IVETIC: One of our main concerns is that the disclosure
21 batch 47 was named just that, disclosure batch 47. The e-mail sent by
22 the Office of the Prosecutor did not even have an index of the documents
23 to allow us to ascertain what material was in the locker at 6.00 in the
24 evening on the weekend. We would ask that the Prosecution at least show
25 us the courtesy of advising us what documents are being dumped into a
1 locker particularly where deadlines under the Rules, and again counsel
2 cited compliance to the Rules, and we want to ensure that we comply with
3 the Rules, and in order to comply with the Rules, we need the assistance
4 to know when dates for responses and the like come into play.
5 I do have the said index of disclosure batch 47 with me because
6 it's in the binder with the expert, and I can affirm that indeed in
7 addition to the material for the handwriting expert much of the other
8 material, if not a majority of the other material, is listed as Rule
9 66(A) material. So it's not a case where it's only the expert that is
10 Rule 66(A) material, albeit I don't know if it's pertaining to the
11 witnesses scheduled this week or not, but I did want to bring that to the
12 Court's attention and that could be verified just by pulling up the index
13 which identifies the reasons for disclosure for the documents and it's
14 chocked full with Rule 66, Rule 66 --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down for
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: You used a very loaded term, Mr. Ivetic,
18 "dumped." The documents are being "dumped."
19 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I -- and appropriately or not,
20 they just got dumped off the table. I apologise if there's any
21 misunderstanding there. I just consider -- in the American vernacular
22 when materials are put somewhere without an identification of what is in
23 those materials, we commonly used the term "dumped" as opposed to being
24 delivered because you don't know what's in that packet until you go there
25 and physically go through it. I apologise if there's any confusion.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome would have heard what you said. We
2 are going to be considering the motion filed, and Mr. Groome is going to
3 provide the additional information that the Chamber sought as quickly as
5 We should move to the witnesses now.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls VG-042.
7 Mr. Travis Farr, he has not appeared before in this trial, he will be
8 taking this witness.
9 Your Honour, I'd like to raise a matter with respect to
10 protective measures. On the 20th of June, 2008, the Chamber issued
11 protective measures for this witness which included a pseudonym, facial
12 distortion and voice distortion. After discussing it with the witness
13 after her arrival here in The Hague, she believes she no longer needs
14 voice distortion, so I would ask for an amendment to the protective
15 measures order and I think that would facilitate the taking of her
16 testimony if there is no voice distortion.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We grant that.
18 MR. GROOME: And, Your Honour, while we're waiting for the
19 witness, may I update you on VG-024, that was the witness that was the
20 subject of a subpoena. VG-024 has considered her position and has now
21 agreed to voluntarily come to The Hague and she'll be arriving here in
22 The Hague on the 1st of November.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the softly, softly approach worked.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-042
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please read the declaration to the witness, and
3 the witness will repeat it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Witness, please repeat after me. I solemnly
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That I will speak the truth.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The whole truth.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.
11 THE REGISTRAR: And nothing but truth.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth alone.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You may now commence. I'm sorry I
14 didn't get your name properly.
15 MR. FARR: Travis Farr appearing for the Prosecution today, Your
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Travis Farr.
18 MR. FARR: Your Honour, can we briefly move into private session
19 to take the personal details of the witness.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
21 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
17 MR. FARR:
18 Q. Witness 042, what is your ethnic or religious background?
19 A. I'm a Muslim.
20 Q. Can you describe for us generally where you lived in 1992? Not
21 your specific house address but in what area.
22 A. Dusce, Visegrad.
23 Q. Are you familiar with the Varda furniture factory in Visegrad?
24 A. Yes. It's right outside my door.
25 Q. Before the war, did you know a couple named Dzemal Zukic and
1 Behka Zukic and their family?
2 A. Of course. They were my neighbours.
3 Q. Did some people call Behka by another name?
4 A. They called her Behija.
5 Q. Do you know which of these names was her real name and which one
6 was her nickname?
7 A. I think her real name was Behija, and Behka was more of a
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know how this family earned a living before
10 the war?
11 A. They got married when they were young. They left for Germany.
12 Then once there, they got their lives back up and running. They owned a
13 shop that they ran, and I think they had a decent life.
14 Q. Did this family own any vehicles before the war?
15 A. Yes. Well, I don't know. I don't really know, because soon
16 after they were married they left for Germany. When they returned from
17 Germany, they had a TAM truck and a passenger vehicle, a Passat.
18 Q. Do you know what, if anything, happened to this Passat during the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber.
22 A. Sure. One day I went to the MUP building in town to get a pass
23 to leave town just to make sure we were safe. I was on my way back to
24 Dusce. There were two roads. One was next to the Drina River; it was an
25 asphalt road, surfaced. And then there was a macadam road parallel to
1 the rail line, so we took that road in order not to meet any Chetniks on
2 our way back. As soon as I reached the Varda furniture factory, there's
3 a house there belonging to a man named Sevko Hodzic. Dzemo Zukic and his
4 Behija passed us, and then there was a white Fico driving behind us and
5 it pulled over right outside Sevko Hodzic's house. Milan Lukic got out
6 of that Fico vehicle and walked up to Vico [as interpreted] Zukic and his
7 wife Behija. He seized their car. We walked on past the Varda factory
8 to our homes. I said, Dzemo, my dear, what was that? And Behija told me
9 one thing, Don't ask a question. Milan Lukic just took my car away. And
10 that was that. We talked no more. We went our separate ways. We walked
11 on, and then I took a turn towards my house, and they just walked on
12 towards their home.
13 Q. Thank you. I believe that you just said: "Dzemo Zukic and his
14 Behija and passed us, and then there was Fico driving ..." Just to
15 clarify, when they passed you, did they pass on foot or in an auto or
17 A. They got into the car and they got pulled right over. The Fico
18 drew up and then they pulled over too. I happened to come by. I kept my
19 head low. I took off my shoes because I was too scared to walk on with
20 my shoes on. I held the shoes in my hands. I was too afraid. I didn't
21 even dare to look there. I just kept my head down and walked straight
23 Q. You've just mentioned that the Zukics told you that their car was
24 taken by Milan Lukic. Had you known Milan Lukic before?
25 A. Yes, I knew Milan Lukic when he was a small boy, when he was a
1 schoolboy. He went to the school in Klasnik. My village was Scitarevo
2 and his village was Rujiste. I knew him as a boy. Sometimes we would
3 take the same bus. From the school in Klasnik, there was a co-op there
4 and one would go to the co-op. That's what they called it. And then we
5 would take this bus together. I -- I would get off on the next stop, and
6 then the children would get off, and I did this countless times. I've
7 lost track, so I did see a great deal of him back then.
8 Q. Thank you. As you were growing up, did your family have any
9 pasture land?
10 A. Yes. We had meadows that we shared. That's where Milan lived,
11 the village of Rujiste. These are the names our meadows Cetulje, Milan
12 knows that full well. And then Osojnica as well. Children used to play
13 there. They played football and they were all together. That's how it
15 Q. Did other families have pasture land near the pasture land of
16 your family?
17 A. Yes. All of our people there, back where I come from, we had
18 pastures. Other people did too. Those were our meadows. That's how we
19 referred to them.
20 Q. Can you tell me some of the families that had pasture land near
21 your family's pasture land?
22 A. Well, I can. My own family did. A number of them Hasim Todovic,
23 but they're all dead. Ramo Cocalic, Ismet Cocalic, Aco Cocalic, they are
24 all neighbours of my dad. Ismet Cocalic. They all know this.
25 Mujo Ramic, there was another man called that. It was a whole
1 neighbourhood, really. People were meeting, and they all knew each other
2 because they grew up together, didn't they? Our children, too, they all
3 went to the same school.
4 Q. Were there any Serb families that had pasture land near your
5 family's pasture land?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: This question sounds me as --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
9 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave this question sounds me
10 as a leading question. I think that we already received the answer from
11 this witness about that issue. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Farr, you have to be careful about leading.
13 MR. FARR: Yes, Your Honour.
14 Q. You've mentioned that you would occasionally see Milan Lukic on
15 the bus when he was a boy. Did you see him in any other locations when
16 he was a boy?
17 A. No. At school, but I maybe wouldn't have seen him that often,
18 but I just had to go myself because I had to take care of the business.
19 I was the eldest child and then I had to go to the co-op, which wasn't
20 too close either, and then I had to go get some stuff and then I would
21 meet these children on the way, you know, leaving school. And then we'd
22 get on the bus together and drive straight on to Rujiste.
23 Q. I believe you said that Milan Lukic was from the village of
24 Rujiste. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. That's where he was born.
1 Q. Did you know any other members of his family?
2 A. Well, I knew his mom, Kata. I knew his dad, Mile. They were on
3 good terms with my own father. His grandfather. He was on very good
4 terms with my father. They were close friends.
5 Q. Did you --
6 A. His name was Nedjo, Nedjo Ivanovic.
7 Q. Did your father ever socialise or greet Milan Lukic's mother and
9 A. Of course. What else? My father was with the -- the forestry
10 company and then they would meet there. They'd sit down for a coffee, a
11 brandy, that sort of thing.
12 Q. You've said that you know the names of Milan Lukic's parents.
13 Did you personally greet them or socialise with them?
14 A. When I was young, a girl, a young woman, if you like, yes, we'd
15 exchange greetings. I never stayed at their home. I can't say that I
17 Q. I believe you've mentioned Milan Lukic's primary school. Do you
18 know where he completed the rest of his education?
19 A. In Prlog. I think it was in Prlog, his secondary education.
20 Q. After secondary school, do you know what he did?
21 A. I can't really say. I know he left for Serbia later on, after
22 he'd left school. He was no longer in Visegrad. I didn't see him any
23 more after that. I know that he was in Serbia.
24 Q. Do you know whether he returns to Visegrad at some point?
25 A. Yeah, probably he would go see his parents every now and then,
1 but I simply didn't see him at the time.
2 Q. Returning to the day when the Zukics' car was taken from them,
3 what happened after you parted company with them?
4 A. They drove on back to their house, further down the road from
5 mine, and then I took a turn up the road and my home was right there.
6 About 5.00 that afternoon the phone rings. Where are the men? Make them
7 leave. Make them go away. They're picking up the men at Dzemo Zukic's
8 place. (redacted)
19 Q. Witness, how did you react to these phone calls that you
12 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I believe the witness mentioned her name
13 again on page 18 at line 9. If that could be redacted.
14 Q. And, Witness, if I could just ask you to try to remember not to
15 mention your name.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please make an effort.
17 Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave, I think we missed the
19 part which witness mentioned that the body was buried. If I say in B/C/S
20 [B/C/S spoken]. I heard that so my learned friend can check that with
21 additional questions.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What line would that be missing from?
23 MR. CEPIC: 19 and 20. 19 would be. Page 18, line 19.
24 MR. FARR: I can probably clarify that.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask that question again.
1 MR. FARR:
2 Q. Witness, as far as you know, what happened to the body of
3 Behka Zukic?
4 A. Well, they told me that Milan Lukic had killed her.
5 Behija Jamak, Sabit Jamak's wife told me that.
6 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, Witness. This is a slightly different
7 question. When you arrived that morning and saw her dead body, what then
8 happened to her body as far as you know?
9 A. I know that while I was still in that house we got her body. A
10 car drove up. I don't know what car it was. Was it an ambulance, was it
11 not an ambulance, I don't know. I didn't look. I was too scared to
12 look. The car took Behija Zukic's body away. And then we have a
13 graveyard, Straziste I think is the name, and I think that's where they
14 buried her body.
15 Q. Just to clarify, though, you did not go along with the body; is
16 that correct?
17 A. No, no, no, no.
18 Q. So it's just a supposition that she was taken to Straziste to be
20 A. Well, yes. Yes, that's what I believe.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I think that we have some
23 leading questions and calling for speculation in last questions. It's
24 not a proper question for direct examination. That is my humble opinion.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree. Counsel, desist from leading
3 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, a moment ago you said in reference to that morning,
5 "Well, they told me that Milan Lukic had killed her. Behija Jamak,
6 Sabit Jamak's wife told me that."
7 Can you please tell the Chamber exactly what Behija Jamak told
8 you about the death of Behija Zukic?
9 A. Sure. I can tell you everything. I know everything she told me.
10 She told me this -- it's not just me who was there. There were other
11 people there. She said Milan Lukic had arrived. Having taken away
12 Faruk -- Faruk's son and Dzemo and all these other people, he drove back
13 and he told her to give him her money and her jewellery. And she said, I
14 have nothing left. Whatever I had I've given away. And Milan Lukic then
15 said, Come with me to -- up to the first floor. And he said, Just sit
16 down here. When I'm back I'll just kill you, won't I. And then she
17 jumped out the window. There was some sort of a low-lying terrace
18 outside the house and some meadow. And she said she was there, so they
19 got out of the house and they left.
20 Q. Thank you. Witness, is your husband alive today?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you remember and can you describe the last day you saw him
24 A. I do remember but I don't remember the date. I know it was the
25 Bajram when the animals were slaughtered, and he was alive until that
1 date, and on that date he was taken away by Milan Lukic and killed.
2 Q. Can you please describe how that happened.
3 A. Yes, I can, and I'll do that very easily. I'll describe it
4 easily because it's as if it was happening now before my very eyes. It
5 was half past 10.00, and there was breakfast in the factory. People were
6 going out for breakfast in the factory, and Milan Lukic came by with his
7 Passat. From the car -- he parked the car at the gate, the gate where
8 you go into the timber yard, and he stood in front of the administration
9 building and Ramiz Karaman, a neighbour, was there and my husband was
10 standing nearby. It was in the sawmill, actually. And he made them go
11 towards the gate, and I was standing out on the terrace and he said to my
12 husband -- he told him to take off his coat. I didn't hear that, but he
13 threw his coat down on some logs and then he made them go towards the
14 gate. And when they arrived at the gate, they stood by the car, and
15 there was a Volvo who -- whose motor was switched on, and in the Volvo
16 was a man called Ahmed Kasapovic. He went up to him and he knocked on
17 the glass, made him get out of the Volvo and took him to the gate too.
18 And when he brought them to the gate, he opened the back door and they
19 got into the Passat, into the car and he drove them off towards town.
20 Q. Thank you --
21 A. However --
22 Q. Sorry. Just to interrupt for a moment. Just to clarify, when
23 you say he brought them to the gate, he brought them to the back door and
24 they got into the Passat, who are you referring to as "he"?
25 A. I'm referring to Milan Lukic.
1 Q. And after he put the three men in the back of the car, what
2 happened next?
3 A. He drove them off towards town, right by my house. And perhaps
4 half an hour went by, maybe it was longer. I didn't look at my watch
5 because I was out on the terrace all the time and felt sad, and I was
6 screaming and crying to see what was happening, and the car came back to
7 the same spot, the gate, and parked where it parked previously. And once
8 again Milan Lukic got out of the car, and he walked towards the same
9 administration building and the people were having breakfast. He rounded
10 up the -- some people and marched them towards the gate. These were all
11 my neighbours all these people. One was called Nusret Aljusevic, and then
12 there was Ibrisim Memisevic. Nedzad Bektas was another.
13 Lutvo Tvrtkovic, he was a little simple, that man. Then there was Cancar
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, Witness. Now you have described
16 two incidents in which you say Milan Lukic came and made people walk
17 towards the car, go towards the car. How did he do this? How was he
18 able to achieve this, to make them go to the car?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in front -- walking in
20 front of him like sheep and he was walking behind them with a rifle. And
21 then when he brought them to the gate, he took Memisevic's overalls off
22 and they took out their cigarettes and keys and threw them down onto the
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So he had a rifle.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: And was that on both occasions?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. He took the three men
3 off before, and then he came back to fetch the others.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did -- on the first occasion, did you hear him
5 say anything to the men? On the first occasion, did you hear Milan Lukic
6 speak to the men and, if so, what did he say?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean did I hear him
8 speak to him? How do you mean? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were you in a position to -- to hear any
11 conversation between Milan Lukic and the men?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't, no.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Farr.
14 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, you have just told us that Milan Lukic had gathered
16 these six men who you named and taken them to the gate, and you also
17 mentioned that they had -- that Ibrisim Memisevic took off his shirt and
18 the others took out their personal items. Can you tell us what happened
19 after that?
20 A. Yes, I can. He made them walk towards the Drina River, in front
21 of him again, just like sheep. He herded them towards the river and he
22 walked behind them and he brought them to the bank of the river, and I
23 could see all this. And then he made them line up one next to the other
24 but not too close, and then he killed them one by one. Then there was a
25 burst of gun-fire and he killed them all. And when he came back, then he
1 shot at us, because Ibrisim Memisevic's wife and daughter turned up and
2 they were standing there and his daughter was shouting out, "Father,
3 father," and he turned round when he heard this child crying. When he'd
4 killed them down by the river, then he started shooting at us. We laid
5 down on the ground and there were bullets whizzing by --
6 Q. [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation continues] ...
7 A. Do you want me to continue?
8 Q. Could I just ask you where you were as you were observing all of
10 A. I was out my terrace. Where my house is, out on the terrace.
11 Q. Can you estimate the distance between your terrace and the gate
12 that you mentioned where the workers were initially gathered?
13 A. Yes, I can. It might be 50 as the crow flies, 50 metres, perhaps
14 less. I can't be quite sure.
15 Q. Did you have a clear view at the time that Milan Lukic was
16 gathering these workers?
17 A. No, nothing occupied me. I was just -- I was just wondering how
18 all this could happen in the middle of the day. I was astounded, and I
19 just screamed.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You'll have to ask the question again. I don't
21 believe she understood it.
22 What the counsel was asking you, Witness, was whether you were
23 able to see from where you were Milan Lukic as he was gathering the
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I saw Milan Lukic. He was
1 wearing a camouflage uniform. I saw him gather up the people, and I know
2 all these people, each and every one of them. It was all happening right
3 in front of the door from this company, and I know them all.
4 MR. FARR:
5 Q. And from the distance that you were watching from your terrace,
6 could you easily recognise the victims that you've named?
7 A. Yes. I could recognise them any time and every time. They used
8 to come by to my house. They were all my neighbours except Cancar. He
9 was not a neighbour, but I knew him too. He would always come by.
10 Q. Can you estimate the distance between where you stood on your
11 terrace and the point beside the river where the men were killed?
12 A. Of course I can tell you. I didn't move from my terrace. I was
13 watching it all happen. I saw it personally from my terrace. I saw what
14 was going on.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what was the distance between your terrace
16 and the river? How far was your terrace from the river?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps -- well, I can't tell you
18 exactly. I don't want to make a mistake. It might have been a hundred
19 metres, maybe a little more, but 50 to the gate as the crow flies. Where
20 the gate is, that's 50.
21 MR. FARR:
22 Q. I believe that you had also told us, Witness, that there were
23 some other people watching these events with you on the terrace. Without
24 using their names, can you please tell us how they reacted to these
14 MR. FARR: I don't think I did, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, could you estimate approximately what time of day this
16 second event occurred, that is the taking away of the six men to the
18 A. About 12.00. Whether it was 12.00 exactly, I can't really say.
19 I didn't look at my watch. But it was roughly at around 12.00. It was
20 the Bajram holiday, Kurban Bajram, the highest religious holiday. That's
21 when that happened.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness.
23 MR. FARR: Could the court officer please place Prosecution
24 Exhibit P153 on the screen, but could the director please not broadcast
25 the image of the photo as the witness will be identifying her house. And
1 could the usher zoom in on the centre of the photo and be available to
2 assist the witness in marking the photo.
3 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at the photograph on the
4 screen in front of you. Do you recognise what you see in this photo?
5 But please don't begin marking yet. Can you just describe what you see
6 in the photo.
7 A. Yes, I can describe it. You mean from where I was watching, from
8 where I was standing?
9 Q. Could you just -- could you just generally tell us first what you
10 see in the photo. Do you recognise this area? Do you recognise these
12 A. All of this. I recognise it all. I lived there. I know it all.
13 It's my neighbourhood. All the buildings, the houses, the sawmill,
14 everything. I also recognise the people standing there, down there.
15 There's a car there. Milan chased the people out in that direction,
16 where there’s a car standing.
17 Q. Do you see your house in this photo, that is the house where you
18 were on the day that these events occurred?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please circle -- do you see the veranda that you were
21 standing on at the time these events occurred?
22 A. Yes, yes, I see it all. I'll tell you any time you like.
23 Q. Could you please circle the veranda or terrace that you were
24 standing on at the time these events occurred?
25 A. I'll draw circles around both terraces. The first terrace I was
1 standing on when he took the three men away, and I'll draw a circle
2 around the terrace that I was on when he took the other lot of people;
4 Q. Let me interrupt you. Could you please just circle the
5 terrace that you were on when you saw him take the second group of
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Thank you. And could you now mark with a cross or X the place
9 are you saw Milan Lukic park the Passat.
10 A. [Marks]
11 MR. FARR: Your Honour --
12 Q. Witness, are you able to make a cross or an X in that spot?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you very much. Could you now draw a line from the place
15 where the men were gathered at the gate to the place at the river where
16 they were killed?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Can you tell us what those three lines that you've just drawn
19 beside the river represent?
20 A. The lines represent where he -- the point where he brought those
21 people and where he killed them. It didn't look like this before. This
22 is some new work that was done.
23 Q. Witness, do you see the wall in the photo near the river?
24 A. Well, yes, I can see the wall by the river, but as I say, the
25 wall was recently built. It didn't exist before.
1 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I tender Exhibit P153 as marked by this
2 witness as a separate Prosecution exhibit under seal.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number P157, Your Honours.
5 MR. FARR:
6 Q. Witness, did you ever try to find out what happened with your
7 husband immediately after he was taken away?
8 A. Of course I did. I always tried to find out what had happened,
9 and I wasn't able to learn what had happened. It was only after a month
10 or two. I can't say exactly how much time went by, but later people told
11 me that they -- his body was found in the river, that the river had taken
12 his body downstream.
13 Q. And did you ever have a chance to identify his body?
14 A. Yes, in Visoko. That's where the identification took place. The
15 body was in Slap, and then I transported it to Vlahovo where his body was
17 Q. And how specifically was he identified?
18 A. He was killed in the head, and I recognised him. He had some
19 false teeth, and I made a statement and said I could recognise this. And
20 I recognised the clothes he was wearing that day. We recognised his
21 shirt and all the other clothing that he had on that day. We recognised
22 all that.
23 Q. You've told us that people told you about finding his body, and
24 you've told us about identifying his body. Did anyone ever tell you
25 anything about how he actually died?
1 A. Before that, I learnt about things. It was war. I went to
2 Visoko. I was there for a year. As people came by they would say
3 things. And then on one occasion Ramo Kurspahic was the man's name told
4 me that he was watching across the Drina River using binoculars and that
5 he saw my husband killed at a place called Potavnica, that they took him
6 to that place and that that's where he was killed. So that's what I
7 learnt from him. I learnt about it later on.
8 Q. Did Ramo Kurspahic tell you who killed your husband?
9 A. No, no, he didn't. What did I need Ramo Kurspahic to tell me
10 when I saw that Milan Lukic took my husband away? You don't suppose he
11 gave him to someone else to kill. He killed him.
12 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Farr.
15 Mr. Alarid.
16 MR. ALARID: Thank you Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Alarid:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. VG-042. My name is Jason Alarid, and I
19 represent Milan Lukic in this courtroom. Can I ask you a few questions
21 A. Go ahead.
22 Q. Now, ma'am, first things first. I'd like to talk about your
23 contact with the ICTY and giving statements regarding war crimes to
24 either the Tribunal or to Bosnian authorities. Do you recall giving
25 several statements to authorities in this case?
1 A. How do you mean?
2 Q. Well, for instance, I've received several proofing statements
3 where you have apparently met with prosecutors and reviewed statements
4 and given clarifications. The most recent proofing note comes from
5 October 26th, 2008, so just a couple days ago. Do you remember giving
6 that proofing session?
7 A. I only say what I saw and what I know about. Nobody can
8 influence me in any way. I tell the truth. I have children and that's
9 why I always tell the truth and everybody should do the same. They
10 should always tell the truth so that the truth might be known.
11 Q. Ma'am, what I asked you is do you remember speaking with
12 prosecutors, including Mr. Farr, on October 26th, 2008?
13 A. I don't know. I don't remember everything, but I do remember --
14 well, I'm not literate, but I do have a clear mind, thank heaven, and I
15 remember everything. Otherwise, I can't remember anything else. I don't
16 remember dates. I don't know what I said today or yesterday, but I
17 remember very well all the atrocities that took place, yes, I do.
18 Q. Well, ma'am, the 26th of October was yesterday. Do you remember
19 speaking with Mr. Farr yesterday?
20 A. Well, I talked to the man. I'm not sure I remember his name.
21 I'm sure I talked to him. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And were any -- because you're not literate, every time you have
23 a question or want to add something to your statement were your previous
24 statements read to you so you could clarify yourself?
25 A. I forget. Well, even if they were read out, yes, I do remember
1 certain things, but others I forget. And whatever I do remember I
3 Q. Well, apparently yesterday, on the 26th, and I'd ask you to say
4 if this is true or false, that in your proofing session of the 26th of
5 October, 2008, you indicated that you now believe that Sredoje Lukic was
6 present during the abductions at the Varda factory on 10 June 1992. Is
7 that -- was that your statement that came to you yesterday?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what prompted you to remember this after all this time, this
10 belief in your -- what was told to you by -- during that proofing session
11 if you were not able to read yourself previous statements?
12 A. You know what led me to say that? Because Sredoje Lukic,
13 Milan Lukic, that is to say the two children of one man, when they took
14 the Passat from Dzemo Zukic, nobody else drew that -- drove that car,
15 just him, and that's why I said it. Nobody ever drove that car except
16 for the two of them.
17 Q. But it's my understanding that this person who's in that car
18 never got out of the vehicle so you could assess what he was wearing, how
19 he looked. Isn't that true?
20 A. Well, they always wore a uniform. Perhaps I didn't express
21 myself properly. They all wore uniforms. And he was sitting in the car,
22 and Milan did what I've just told you about.
23 Q. But, ma'am, you gave no description of Mr. Sredoje Lukic as to
24 his age. Isn't that true?
25 A. I don't know what age Sredoje Lukic was exactly, but I know him
1 well. He was a working colleague of my son, and he would come to my
2 house often, and I knew Sredoje Lukic very well.
3 Q. But, ma'am, you're over -- you're over 50 metres away on your
4 veranda, and this person did not get out of a vehicle, and you gave no
5 descriptive means for that person. Isn't that true?
6 A. I assume, and I always assume that Sredoje and Milan Lukic were
7 in the car -- the Passat car together.
8 Q. So you assumed, but you do not know. Isn't that true?
9 A. I think that that's correct, because I would come across them
10 before in the car. They would be there in the car together on previous
12 Q. Okay. But isn't it true that the first time that you mentioned
13 that this passenger, this passenger driver of this Passat got out of the
14 vehicle was in the 26th of October, 2008?
15 A. Yes, I did say that, yes. Correct. Of course.
16 Q. Now, you've just testified, ma'am, that you'd seen these two
17 gentleman always in this car, always in the Passat, only them; correct?
18 A. Always. Nobody ever drove that car except for Milan and Sredoje.
19 They thought it was an aeroplane, not a car. That's how they behaved.
20 Q. Ma'am, do you recall going to a proofing session, your third
21 proofing session in this matter on the 22nd of October, 2008?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And present at this proofing session was Petar Finci,
24 Travis Farr, and Nada Kiswanson; correct?
25 A. Yes. It's just I didn't really memorise their names, did I.
1 MR. FARR: Your Honour, just to clarify.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 MR. FARR: There is a proofing notes dated the 22nd of October,
4 but it actually pertains to a proofing that took place on the 21st and
5 22nd of September. I apologise for the confusion that that might have
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. And, ma'am, according to this proofing note that was a
10 clarification of a September 21st and 22nd proofing note, this indicates
11 that you believe that the killing of Behka Zukic and the taking of her
12 car by Milan Lukic occurred the day before the killings at the Varda
13 factory charged in this indictment. Isn't that true, ma'am?
14 A. Maybe I got the date wrong. It was earlier on that they seized
15 the car. It was right in front of my very own eyes. They weren't
16 standing five metres away from me. I was right there when they did. I
17 saw this myself. It's just that I don't really have a good head for
18 dates at all. It's simply awful. It's very difficult. I keep having
19 nightmares about this. You can't begin to imagine what I've seen.
20 Q. Well, ma'am, for purposes of my questioning, you don't have to
21 remember dates. You just have to remember sequence of events. And I
22 think it's very specific that you would say Ms. Zukic's car was taken the
23 day before these gentlemen were taken to the river and killed.
24 A. I may have said that, but later on when I managed to focus, when
25 I gave my statement and managed to focus. Was it ten days? Was it
1 before? I really can't remember the date. I can't for the life of me.
2 Behka was killed first and then those people were taken away, and then
3 this incident took place.
4 Q. Well, ma'am, those people being taken away was your husband. I
5 would assume that you'd remember very clearly the morning your husband
6 was taken away. Wouldn't that be true?
7 A. That's true. I remember that morning, don't I. It was just on
8 the eve of Bajram when animals are slaughtered. I waited for my husband.
9 He was supposed to get home for breakfast. I prepared breakfast. I was
10 leaning over the bannister on our terrace to see when he would arrive,
11 but what actually happened is Milan got there first, before my husband
12 was back for breakfast. He took my husband away and Karaman Ramiz and
13 Ahmed, Kasapovic Ahmed.
14 Q. But, ma'am, you should also know very well when the death of
15 Behija Zukic occurred because you in fact saw her body and saw it taken
16 away in a car; correct?
17 A. Yes, that's right. Of course I did.
18 Q. Well, ma'am, if the car was taken away the day before the
19 incident at Varda that means that you were, in fact, at Ms. Zukic's house
20 the day your husband was taken away. Isn't that true?
21 A. I was there that morning. It was that morning that I was at
22 Zukic's place to make sure we got the body into that car, and then I went
23 back home, and I tried to whip up some breakfast. And it was at 10.30
24 that the incident took place involving my husband and the two men. A
25 minute or two may have gone by, half past 10.00, breakfast-time. I was
1 expecting my husband to show up for breakfast. I was leaning over the
2 bannister of our terrace, waiting to sight him.
3 Q. But, ma'am, according to your earlier testimony in the courtroom
4 today, you indicated that after Ms. Zukic's vehicle was taken away that
5 you received a call warning you that they in fact were taking away the
6 men, being Ms. Zukic's son and husband. Isn't that true?
7 A. That evening.
8 Q. And so, ma'am, if you received a call that evening --
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Ma'am, if you received a call that evening, the evening of
11 Ms. Zukic's death, before the morning that you saw her, before the
12 morning that your husband disappeared and these other seven men were
13 taken out, tell me, ma'am, if you received such a warning call, why would
14 you let your husband go to work?
15 A. Because they provided every guarantee that our men would be safe
16 going to work. Stanko Pecikoza, for example, just seven days before this
17 he came to my house. He had coffee with my husband. He said, "We have
18 to work on. No work, no salary. We have to get some food. You have to
19 go to work. You'll be safe." And that's why my husband went there,
20 because he had received every guarantee that he'd be safe going to work.
21 Q. But, ma'am, wouldn't it be fair to say that after you witnessed,
22 supposedly the day before your husband was taken away, the seizure of
23 Ms. Zukic's car and in fact knew about her death late that evening, don't
24 you think things had changed enough that you wouldn't let your husband go
25 to work?
1 A. It's not like my husband asked me. He was the boss. It was his
2 call, not mine. Every guarantee was provided. Not just to my husband,
3 to all the men. They said it would be safe going to work, working on.
4 There was every guarantee.
5 Q. What time did your husband go to work that day, ma'am?
6 A. 7.00.
7 Q. This was June, ma'am. What time was daybreak?
8 A. I suppose early morning, 7.00, half past 10.00 was breakfast.
9 They worked on until 3.00 in the afternoon. That's how the company
11 Q. What time did the sun come up?
12 A. I didn't check. I didn't check for the sun coming up. I
13 couldn't; I was asleep. It was raining that morning. When I returned
14 from the woods, it was 7.00. When we got back my husband left for work,
15 and I walked on to Bekija's, as I said.
16 Q. Well, ma'am, according to your statement, though, it was dawn
17 when you discovered the body of Behija Zukic. Isn't that true?
18 A. That morning, yes. It was after daybreak. We spent the night
19 there. We came the next morning. We returned from the woods. This lady
20 called me to come with her to Behka Zukic's house. It was
21 Hajira Memisevic, so that's what I did.
22 Q. And, ma'am, isn't it true, then, that your husband stayed with
23 you in woods that night?
24 A. We had spent the night in the woods, but then the next day one
25 had to go to work, didn't one?
1 Q. But, ma'am, why would he go to work after you'd actually
2 witnessed the death of Behija Zukic?
3 A. They had told him it would be safe. We had fled Visegrad. We
4 went to Rogatica when the -- when Sabanovic Murat said he would open the
5 dam. And then my husband, my two daughters-in-law, and my four
6 grandchildren left for Rogatica. I stayed behind. My mother was old and
7 sick. So I got onto a tractor and drove as far as Medjedja, and that's
8 how we ended up in Rogatica. Then we went back to Visegrad. A call had
9 been published over the radio. The Serbian radio said we would be free
10 to go back to our homes, that people should go to work, that it was safe.
11 So that's what we did. We went back to our homes.
12 The Uzice Corps then entered Visegrad. Some houses burned down.
13 Thank God mine was not among them, but there were various forms of
14 mistreatment that we suffered.
15 Q. Ma'am, ma'am. That's not the question I asked you. Please try
16 and answer the questions that I ask you, okay?
17 A. If -- if I can get my bearings, okay, yes, that's what I'm trying
18 to do.
19 Q. Ma'am, I'm asking you to assume that you were, in fact,
20 witnessing Ms. Zukic's body being taken away, and you stated on direct
21 that you spent the night in the woods that night; correct?
22 A. We spent that night in the woods, yes. The next morning we went
23 back home. My husband went to work. 7.00, that's when they started work
24 in the factory. That was normal.
25 Meanwhile, I went to Zukic's place to see the body and to make
1 sure the body was driven away. And right after he'd returned from the
2 woods my husband just went to work. That's how it was.
3 Q. And so, ma'am, are you telling me that you did not go over to
4 Ms. Zukic's home at dawn, that you waited until your husband left to work
5 to go?
6 A. Yes. He went to work, and then later on I went where I went.
7 Q. And what time did you -- how long did you stay at Ms. Zukic's?
8 A. I don't know that either. I didn't check my watch. Time was not
9 really a consideration.
10 Q. How long did you stay over there?
11 A. As I said, I wasn't checking my watch. I don't know how long.
12 We got the body. We wrapped the body in a blanket. The body was put
13 into a car. It was taken away, and I went back home.
14 Q. How did you get there?
15 A. Back home you mean. Just like that. It's not that it was
16 difficult or far away.
17 Q. How far away is Ms. Zukic's home?
18 A. Two minutes, perhaps.
19 MR. ALARID: Can we please call up the Prosecution Exhibit 157,
20 please, on the e-court.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Farr?
22 MR. ALARID: And actually can we have an unmarked photo which was
23 P153 originally.
24 And the reason I'm pausing is there -- okay. Could the court
25 assistant assist the witness in marking this photo, please?
1 Q. And, ma'am, the first thing I'd like you to do, again for a point
2 of reference, is note the veranda which you were sitting on at the time
3 you witnessed all these incidents at the Varda factory.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
5 Mr. Farr.
6 MR. FARR: I just ask that the photo not be broadcast since the
7 witness will be indicating her house.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 MR. ALARID:
11 Q. And, ma'am, who lives in that white house right next to you?
12 MR. ALARID: And we could go into private session if this is
13 going to indicate location.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
15 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Page 2807 redacted. Private session.
3 Q. Now, ma'am, can you show me where Behija Zukic's home is on this
5 A. I can't show you that. I can't see it. It's -- you go this way
6 to reach Behija Zukic's house. I can draw an arrow there to mark the
8 Q. Can you put the little arrow mark, please.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And how much further --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, we have passed the time for the
12 break, so we're going to break now.
13 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid. Mr. Groome first.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure if the Chamber wanted to
18 note the absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert. I look to the Chamber to ...
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should have stated at the outset that at the
20 in the absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert, Judge David and I sit pursuant
21 to the provisions of Rule 15 bis.
22 Thank you, Mr. Groome.
23 Mr. Alarid.
24 MR. ALARID: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. As we left, I believe we had a photograph on the screen.
1 Now, Witness 042, in referencing -- can you see the picture in
2 front of you?
3 A. I'll just put my glasses on.
4 Q. Now, if I understand your markings correctly, on the far right of
5 the photograph you marked an arrow pointing off the picture to the right,
6 our right, is in the direction of Ms. Behija Zukic; correct?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. If you could just describe it to me. And I'd prefer how you got
9 there personally the morning you saw the body of Behija Zukic. Describe
10 to me how you went to Behija Zukic's home.
11 A. I don't think I can describe that, because I took a different
12 road from my home, because there's another path over there. So that's
13 the one that I took.
25 Q. And can you tell me how many metres past the photograph is it to
1 Ms. Behija Zukic's home?
2 A. It's further down. I can't show you that because it's not in the
3 photograph. If it were in the photograph, I could point the house out
4 for you.
5 Q. And what I may be more curious about, could you just describe it
6 ma'am? How many metres? How would you walk there, if you went right or
7 left, straight ahead, that kind of thing, as if you were giving me
8 directions to go to Ms. Zukic's home.
9 A. I'd tell them to go in this direction, because that is the
10 fastest way to get to Behija's house. And the other thing that I showed,
11 it's a path that goes between the houses, and it's a shortcut of sorts.
12 Q. How long did you know Behija Zukic?
13 A. I've known Behija Zukic since we were children, since when I
14 first moved to that village, when we were school-age children.
15 Q. And so, ma'am, that's why I'm asking you. Can't you give me just
16 simple directions on how to walk there as if I'd never been there before
17 and you were telling me how to get there? And I'd like you to describe
18 it. You don't need to use the photograph for this question.
19 A. No, no need for the photograph. This is the town. You walk by
20 the Drina River, and you arrive here. You eventually merge here, and
21 then you take this path straight, the one that I showed you, and in no
22 time at all you're outside her house.
1 Q. Now I'd like to refer you to a proofing note that we received
2 related to September 22, 2008. Do you recall meeting with the Office of
3 the Prosecutor back September 21st and 22nd of 2008?
4 A. Well, whatever you ask me about that I can recall, I'll be happy
5 to share with you.
6 Q. Well, do you remember coming and meeting with the Prosecution in
7 anticipation of testifying back in September of 2008? A little over a
8 month ago, ma'am.
9 A. There is something I don't think I understand about this. Can
10 you try to rephrase that maybe?
11 Q. Well, ma'am, a little over a month ago did you have a meeting
12 over the course of a couple of days with members of the Prosecution,
13 proofing and where they read to you your original statements in 1993,
14 1994, 1998, and 2008?
15 A. And month ago. That's what you're asking me about; right? Yes.
16 The answer is yes.
17 Q. And isn't it true that during those proofing sessions you were
18 read all of your statements, all four statements? Correct?
19 A. Sure thing. Just ask away. I'll tell you everything I know, but
20 I can't read and I can't write. Just ask me questions. If I know, I'll
21 be happy to tell you.
22 Q. Well, according to the proofing statement of September 21st,
23 2008, you had several clarifications, namely regarding your 1993
24 statement and your 1994 statement. Isn't that true?
25 A. I don't know which statement you mean. Maybe you should clarify
1 that so that I understand which one you mean.
2 Q. Well, do you remember giving a statement to the MUP in 1993?
3 A. I gave several statements. I don't know who to, but that was
4 after we had fled Visoko and then Visegrad. And it wasn't just me.
5 Several people were giving these statements all together.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you have used 37 minutes. The
7 Prosecution used 40 minutes. I'll give you another ten minutes.
8 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, that would be wholly insufficient to do
9 a cross-examination on this witness. This witness has four prior
10 statements. They've all been read to the statement -- excuse me, to this
11 witness. This witness is not literate. There were several changes and
12 clarifications to the 1993 statement of which this witness has just
13 touched on, i.e., that she was interviewed in a group. However, the --
14 other than the omission or adding of names, this witness obviously
15 describes --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You tell me how much time would you need.
17 MR. ALARID: Those are the toughest questions you ever ask me,
18 Your Honour, because as far as I'm concerned, it always depends on the
19 responsive witness, the clarity of witness's recollection, as well as the
20 willingness to just introduce these statements possibly into evidence. I
21 would like -- although my assistant just reminded me that I need to
22 tender the marked photo before it erases, and so I would do that. We
23 would tender the marked photo into evidence.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will admit it, but tell me how much time you
25 need so I can determine how much time to --
1 MR. ALARID: At least 45 minutes, Your Honour, if not an hour.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Another 45 minutes?
3 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I am not giving that. You'll get 40
5 minutes, another 40 minutes. We have to be disciplined and focused.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, marked photo will become Exhibit
7 number 1D65, under seal.
8 MR. ALARID:
9 Q. Now, ma'am, you do remember giving a statement, though, in
10 December 1993, and as you indicated some other people were present;
12 A. How long ago was that? Sixteen years ago. Do you understand?
13 When was that, 16 years ago? When was it that I gave that statement?
14 Q. Well, ma'am, apparently in September 22nd or 21st of 2008, you
15 remembered that Esad Gadzo and Rahima Zulic are two of the people that
16 were with you when you gave the interview; correct?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. So you --
19 A. Yes, yes. That's right.
20 Q. So you remember being there for that statement; correct?
21 A. Yes. Yes. That's true. I was there, and we were together.
22 Q. And you made some clarifications, but other than the
23 clarifications was everything in that 1993 statement true to the best of
24 your ability?
25 A. Everything I said. If that's what's written, and I wasn't there
1 alone, it's certainly all true. You see me sitting here today, don't
2 you? That's what it's like. I have children. I'm not say anything
3 that's not true.
4 Q. Well, in the clarification or the proofing note it indicates that
5 the list of our neighbours who crossed over to the aggressive -- the
6 aggressor ranks as noted on page 1 of the B/C/S version and page 2 of the
7 English was not provided by you, and you think that it was provided by
8 Esad Gadzo; correct?
9 A. No, no. That's not correct. That's not true.
10 Q. So you knew the names of the Chetnik neighbours that had gone
11 over to the aggressor ranks is what you're saying?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And on page 2 of the B/C/S version and page 5 of the English
14 version, you state that you were not the one that gave the names of
15 Brano Savovic, Risto Perisic or Drago Gavrilovic; correct?
16 A. Yes, correct. That was Esad Gadzo. When we gave that statement
17 I remember that he mentioned those names. I know those people because
18 those people are from Visegrad, but I couldn't remember the names at the
19 time. That's right. That's true.
20 Q. Tell us who those people were from Visegrad?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Farr.
22 MR. FARR: I was just going to suggest that it might be helpful
23 to read the applicable paragraphs of the statement to the witness in full
24 and then put to her the question. Given that she can't read, it may be
25 difficult for her to remember the exact context in which these lists of
1 names were mentioned.
2 MR. ALARID: We can do that, Your Honour. I would ask that we
3 put 1D10-2087, and it's B/C/S component is 1D10-2099.
4 Q. Now, ma'am, while we're waiting for that to come up, though, can
5 you tell me who Brano Savovic was?
6 A. The man from Visegrad. I know him because I lived in Visegrad
7 too. I met all those people, but I didn't spend any time with them.
8 It's not that I was in touch with those people. Those were people who
9 were Chetniks who were off to beat other people.
10 Q. And isn't it true that Savovic was a leader in the SDS party;
12 A. I didn't know about parties. I'm not a politician. I'm not
13 literate. I know people when I meet them. I meet them once, I meet them
14 twice, I know them forever.
15 Q. And how did you know who Risto Perisic was, ma'am?
16 A. When Esad Gadzo and I gave a statement, I remember that clearly.
17 He made a statement about those people, those people there, because he
18 worked with them. He worked in the Partizan Company, and he knew more
19 people than I did.
20 Q. Did you know him to be the commander of the police?
21 A. Who?
22 Q. Perisic.
11 Pages 2816-2818 redacted. Private session.
7 Q. Ma'am, when was the last time before -- you stated that you knew
8 Milan Lukic went to Serbia, correct, after secondary school?
9 A. Yes. I didn't see him around, and I heard that he'd gone to
10 Serbia somewhere. I don't know where, and I wasn't interested where he
11 went, but all I know is that he wasn't in Visegrad.
12 Q. Before 1992, when was the last time you personally saw
13 Milan Lukic?
14 A. I saw him when the war began in Visegrad. That's when I saw
15 Milan Lukic.
16 Q. Before the war began, ma'am. Think back before the war began.
17 When was the last time you believe you saw Milan Lukic?
18 A. I didn't see him for some time. I told you when I saw him. I
19 met him when he was a boy. That's when I used to see him. Then when I
20 married I didn't see him at that time. I saw Sredoje but not Milan. I
21 know that he went to school in Prelovo. (redacted)
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: About how old was Milan when you last saw him
1 prior to the -- to the incidents in 1992? You have told us that he was a
2 boy. About how old was he?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a skinny boy, Milan Lukic,
4 when I met him in 1992. He was very thin. I'd see him like that, thin.
5 I'd meet him in uniform. He wore different uniforms, wasn't always in
6 the same one.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. We are talking now about the last time that
8 you saw him before 1992. Before the war. And you told us that you saw
9 him when he was a boy, so I'm asking you about how old was he at the
10 time? About how old was he when you last saw him?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how old would a child be in
12 fourth form? How old would a child be? Eight, ten? I don't know. He
13 was a skinny little boy. That's how I knew him. I would be on the bus
14 with him.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we have -- we have a little marker there,
16 about eight or ten, and he was skinny. Yes.
17 MR. ALARID:
18 Q. And so your -- Ms. 042, are you saying that the last time when
19 you saw him, eight or ten, you were on the bus? This was before you were
21 A. Yes, yes, before I was a young girl living with my father. I
22 hadn't married yet.
23 Q. All right, ma'am. I'd like to go back to the 1993 statement and
24 take you through a few things before we get through this.
25 According to the proofing note that the Prosecution gave me, it
1 indicates that on page 2 of the B/C/S, page 5 of the English -- and if we
2 could go there on the screen, please, for the Court's reference and the
3 record. There is a list of the following citizens, the names of people,
4 and you indicated -- or at least in the proofing notes that the witness,
5 you, did not mention the preparation of lists of Muslims for detention
6 and execution, but you believe that those lists existed. Is that true?
7 A. Yes, that is true.
8 Q. And so between -- other than what we've mentioned as earlier
9 corrections, everything else in that 1993 statement was true; correct?
10 Up to at least page 2 of the B/C/S where we're referring to.
11 A. Can I say something? Could you explain what you just asked me
12 and what I said?
13 Q. Okay. Ma'am, according to the statement in 1993, there is a
14 reference that lists of Muslims -- there was a preparation of lists of
15 Muslims for detention and execution, and according to the proofing note,
16 you didn't say this directly, maybe one of the other two people present
17 did, but you believe that those lists did exist. Is that true?
18 A. I'm not clear what you're asking me again. The execution of the
19 Muslims, to have them destroyed, is that what you mean? Is that what
20 you're telling me? That that exists? I can't really understand what
21 you're saying. What have you just been explaining to me? I can't read.
22 I would like it if I could read what you just said and then I could
23 explain to you, but I'm not quite clear what you mean.
24 Do you mean that they wanted to execute the Muslims? Is that
25 what you're saying?
1 Q. Well, yes, ma'am. Do you believe that to be true?
2 A. Of course. Of course they did that. That's been proved that so
3 many Muslims were executed, killed.
4 Q. Well -- and, ma'am, according to the proofing note, page 2 of
5 B/C/S, page 5 of the English, as -- according to the proofing note, you
6 did not mention Savovic, Perisic, or Gavrilovic, but I would assume that
7 you did mention Boban Tomic and Dragan Tomic; is that true?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Farr.
9 MR. FARR: Could the whole sentence --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and Sredoje Lukic and all the
12 MR. FARR: I think it might be easier for the witness to answer
13 the question if the entire sentence beginning with "at the same time" --
14 MR. ALARID: Sure.
15 MR. FARR: -- and ending with "to be executed and detained," were
16 read to the witness.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please do that.
18 MR. ALARID:
19 Q. Sure. In the English version, ma'am, and I'm reading it in
20 English and of course it's translated to you, according to page 5 of the
21 English translation it states: "At the same time Visegrad SDS,
22 Serbian Democratic Party, top officials led by Brano Savovic, aged around
23 40, worked at the municipality in Visegrad, and his associates.
24 "One, Risto Perisic, aged around 40. He was a professor in
25 Visegrad. And Drago Gavrilovic, age 40, worked at the hydroelectric
1 plant. Three, Boban Tomic. Four, Dragan Tomic were making lists of the
2 members of the ethnic Muslim community to be executed and detained." Did
3 you say these names? And Risto Perisic was included.
4 A. No, no, no.
5 Q. Did you mention Tomic, either Dragan and Boban?
6 A. I mentioned Dragan Tomic and that brother of his, Risto,
7 Esad Gadzo, but it was the SDS, not the Muslims. They weren't with the
8 Muslims. They were the SDS.
9 MR. ALARID: And could we please go to page 6 of the English
10 translation. And, Your Honour, we are still in private session. I don't
11 believe we need to be.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Open session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 MR. ALARID: And page 4 of the B/C/S statement is the
16 coordinating page according to the reference.
17 Q. There's a sentence stating: "I do not remember the names of the
18 remaining three persons who were killed," and this is in reference to ten
19 people killed June 10th, 1992, at the Varda factory. And according to
20 the proofing note, you state that you do not understand the question
21 because you do know who was killed, and namely the persons that were
22 killed was your husband, Ahmet and Mr. Kasapovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Mr. Karaman; correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct. That's true.
1 Q. So regardless, in 1993, the interviewer failed to note that you
2 knew those people at Varda; correct?
3 A. I knew those people, the ones you've just enumerated, Kasapovic,
4 Ramovic, and my husband.
5 Q. But, ma'am, in your proofing note or any statements after,
6 there's no clarification or mention that you in fact witnessed the
7 abduction and/or death of these ten people. Can you explain that?
8 A. How do you mean abducted? They were forced to leave the sawmill
9 and then were killed. They were forced. They weren't abducted. That's
10 what I'm saying. I don't know how else to say it.
11 Q. What I'm saying, ma'am, is there's just simply no mention in the
12 1993 statement that you were a direct eyewitness to these men being
13 forced --
14 A. I always made that same statement. The statement is always the
15 same, and it has to be the same, and it cannot be any other way. I said
16 what I saw. I couldn't have seen anything else. And if you were -- had
17 you been where I was, you would have seen the same thing.
18 Q. But, ma'am, the question I asked is: Can you explain why the
19 1993 statement of you does not mention that you witnessed the ten people
20 at Varda being killed personally?
21 A. I have absolutely no idea why it's not there. It should be. I
22 always gave the same statement. I'll never forget that statement,
23 because I am afraid to the present day. I'm always afraid when I have to
24 make that statement and say those things, and I'll always have that image
25 in my mind, imprinted in my mind and before my eyes.
1 MR. ALARID: Could the court assistant please go to page 4 in
2 B/C/S -- excuse me, page 5 in B/C/S and page 8 in English, please.
3 Q. And according to this, ma'am, that you corrected the spelling of
4 the name from Behra to Behija Zukic, number 1, in terms of -- in
5 reference to: "I am also familiar with the fact that more citizens of
6 Muslim nationality were killed in June 1992. Their names are as follows:
7 Number 1, Behra Zukic, aged around 38, killed in her house in Dusce
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you corrected the spelling; correct?
11 A. I don't know how I corrected that. You have to explain that me.
12 You have to show it to me so that I know what I corrected.
13 Q. I apologise, ma'am, for -- you corrected how her name was said;
15 A. Oh, I see. That you mean. Some called her Behija. Others
16 called her Behka, but I think her real name is Behija, and people would
17 use the term of endearment, Behka.
18 Q. And my next question is, ma'am, if you were given an opportunity
19 to clarify in 2008 and also gave statements in -- in -- excuse me, in
20 your proofing statement September 21st, 2008, why didn't you clarify that
21 there was no mention of you witnessing the -- first the seizure of
22 Ms. Zukic's car right in front of you as you stated earlier on direct?
23 A. Who says it's always the same statement? I always said the same
24 thing. I can't change a statement when that's what I know. I can't say
25 that Milan went to kill someone else and then to lie and say something
1 that I didn't see. I'll never do that.
2 Q. Ma'am, can you explain why the 1993 statement doesn't include the
3 information that you saw Behija Zukic's car taken from her?
4 A. How do I know that? How can I explain that? I always made the
5 same statement, always the same statement. Because I was there on the
6 spot, so I can't say anything other than what I saw.
7 Q. And the only other corrections that you gave, though, with regard
8 to the 1993 statement were corrections on the killing of Mr. Musevic,
9 Dervis Musevic and Rusta Musevic, correct?
10 A. That's correct, but that was afterwards, after the people who
11 were taken. This was later, perhaps three days later. After everything
12 that happened and then still later.
13 Q. And according to your clarification or your proofing note, the
14 only other correction you had related to page 6 B/C/S, page 10 English,
15 was from the list of girls taken away, the witness was only familiar with
16 the two girls Repuhsevici [sic].
17 A. Repuha, her daughter-in-law and daughter. We were in
18 Muja Zulcic's house. We all collected there together. We thought that
19 we would be safer if there were more of us together, but it was worse,
20 and we were at Muja Zulcic's, Mustafa's. And then they came from
21 Repusovic and he was expelled and they came from Musa Zulcic, and that
22 evening when he arrived, his daughter was taken away and his
23 daughter-in-law. They were taken to Vilina Vlas, and I was in the house
24 that very night. So I'm an eyewitness to that.
25 Q. And so, ma'am, you had no other clarifications in your September
1 21st proofing note than the ones we've talked about here today; correct?
2 A. I don't know what you mean. What I just said is the truth.
3 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, at this point I would tender the
4 14 December 1993 statement, 1D10-2087 for the English version and
5 1D10-2099 for the B/C/S version into evidence.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit number 1D66 under seal,
8 Your Honours.
9 MR. ALARID: And we -- yes.
10 Q. Okay, ma'am. Now the next thing I'd like to refer to and I'd
11 like to pull up 1D10-2106 and 1D10-2111 referencing the January 14th,
12 1994 statement.
13 Now, do you recall giving a statement about a month later?
14 A. How do you mean? What year? You mean this month?
15 Q. No, January 1994, ma'am. We just talked about December 1993, and
16 I'm asking you about January 1994. Just about a month later.
17 A. I can't remember. I can't remember January or the date or
18 anything. All I remember is the experience, what I lived through, where
19 I was, and I remember that very well.
20 Q. Now, at this point in time you now state that you witnessed the
21 killing of ten Visegrad residents employed at the Varda at around 12.00
22 noon; correct?
23 A. I always remember that. I'll never forget that and it's
24 difficult for me to remember it now, too. I have sleepless nights
25 thinking about it.
1 Q. Now, in your 1994 statement you only made two clarifications.
2 Isn't that true?
3 A. I don't know what statement that was. Explain it to me.
4 Q. Well, accord -- let me just -- let me just read from you, and we
5 can go to -- I guess it would be page 2 in the B/C/S, page 2 in the
7 Now, according to this statement, the Passat arrived, and
8 Milan Lukic went into the sawmill, entered it and came out with ten
9 employees all together. Isn't that true?
10 A. What mill? What mill did you say?
11 Q. The sawmill, ma'am.
12 A. Yes, the sawmill. That's right. He entered the sawmill, and he
13 came with the people. He forced them to the gate just like sheep.
14 Ibrisim Memisevic took off his shirt there at the gate, and they took out
15 his documents, keys -- they took out keys, cigarettes, the keys to the
16 cupboards where they kept their uniforms and they threw it all on to that
17 shirt. Then he made them go down towards the Drina just like sheep. He
18 herded them like sheep in front of him. And Osmanagic Hamed, put his arm
19 around his -- threw his arm around his shoulder, threw him down to the
20 Drina and then he spaced them out and started killing them one by one.
21 And when he killed them all, he went back and shot a burst of gun-fire at
23 Q. Now, at them, who's "them," ma'am?
24 A. Those people there.
25 Q. Who did he -- who did he shoot at? It says: "He went back and
1 shot a burst of gun-fire at them." Who do you mean?
2 A. Well, my neighbours from the sawmill, the ones he took away. The
3 ones that I just told you of, that I enumerated.
4 Q. Now, ma'am, according to the proofing note, you made a
5 clarification that Milan Lukic took all of the prisoners to the Drina at
6 the same time not in two different groups as it indicates in the
7 statement, page 2 in B/C/S, page 2 in English. Is that -- so you
8 clarified that; correct?
9 A. I always said that he took them down to the river all together,
10 and this group of three people had been taken away by him beforehand,
11 before. Then he came back to fetch the other people and forced them to
12 go down to the river.
19 MR. FARR: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. FARR: If we could just redact her husband's name if we're in
22 open session.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, redact that.
24 MR. ALARID: I apologise, Your Honour.
25 Q. And so, ma'am, why I'm confused is, is because today on direct
1 examination you indicated that it was actually seven people at noon and
2 the three unnamed was, in fact, your husband and the two other gentlemen.
3 But according to the 1994 statement, it appears that a total of 13 people
4 were removed from the Varda that morning.
5 A. I'll count the people and the names and you write them down. You
6 make a note of them. Can we do it that way? I'll name the names and you
7 make a note of them.
8 Q. Well, ma'am, I'm just going from the statement that states: "I
9 stated earlier that I could only remember seven of the people who were
10 led out and killed. Their names are as follows: Ibrisim Memisevic" --
11 A. Not Ibrahim but Ibrisim.
12 Q. Yes, ma'am. Who else? Why don't you name them for me?
13 A. There you go, one by one. Ramiz Karaman, Podzic Mujo,
14 Ahmet Kasapovic, taken at half past 10.00 from the Varda sawmill, taken
15 back into town. They came back. I didn't check my watch. And I always
16 said that. I didn't check my watch. Was it half past 11.00? Was it
17 noon? The Passat came back the same place as before, parked the same
18 place as before, Milan Lukic got out, went over to the management
19 building. They were probably having breakfast there. He picked up all
20 the people, drove them as far as the gate, from the gate onto the Drina
21 riverbank and killed them right there. I gave a statement about that
22 too. I stand by that statement. This is something that I saw with my
23 very own eyes, and nobody can tell me otherwise.
24 Q. But, ma'am, according to the 1998 -- excuse me, 1994 statement,
25 it appears that in the group at noon there were ten people, three
1 unnamed, seven you could name. Do you understand why I'm confused?
2 A. I understand what you're saying. You might find it confusing
3 that I didn't mention those three names; right? Is that what you find
4 confusing? That's it.
5 Q. No, I find confusing that it appears that there's three extra
6 people that were brought out of the Varda factory, simply three that
7 can't be named.
8 A. I can't say. Those three men down there, perhaps someone wrote
9 down. It's the three that I said including my husband and those other
11 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, just a technical note. Our
12 LiveNote stopped working. We're using the public screen at this point.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll ask the court deputy to have the technical
14 people look into that.
15 MR. ALARID:
16 Q. And, ma'am, according to the proofing note of September 21st,
17 2008, the only other clarification you had for the 1994 statement was
18 that Milan Lukic allegedly put his hand -- excuse me, Milan Lukic put his
19 arm around Hamed, not Musan; is that true?
20 A. I think it was Hamed Osmanagic that he put his hand around as
21 they were headed down towards the Drina, and the others were walking in
22 front of them.
23 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, at this time I would tender the January
24 14th, 1994, statement, 1D10-2106, into evidence with the B/C/S statement
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and you have about four minutes,
2 Mr. Alarid.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement is admitted as
4 Exhibit number 1D67, under seal.
5 MR. ALARID: Just a moment, Your Honour. Just a moment, Judge.
6 Q. Can you describe how Milan Lukic looked when he was at the Varda
8 A. I can. Camouflage uniform. That's what he was wearing. Thin.
9 He wasn't fat, he was thin.
10 Q. How old did you believe him to be?
11 A. Over 40, but I don't know exactly. It's difficult for me to get
12 dates right or someone's age. I just don't know. Over 40. I'm sure he
14 Q. Well, ma'am, if he was eight or ten years old when you were still
15 a girl, right about the time you got married, he would have to be 40,
16 wouldn't he?
17 A. I said that, too, but I wasn't sure about the age when I said it
19 Q. Well, the only way you could have seen him on the bus would have
20 been had this been before you moved to Visegrad; correct?
21 A. That's right. I was a young girl. Milan was just a small boy.
22 He was school age. He went to school, and that's how I got to know him.
23 He was watching the cattle because that's what children out in the
24 country did. He can tell you himself if that's true or not.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You must bring the cross-examination to an end
2 MR. ALARID: I was, Your Honour, and the only thing I'd want to
3 do other than that is admit the witness statement of 17 October 1998 to
4 the ICTY, which is uploaded as 1D10-2115 and 1D10-2120.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit those.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 1D68, under seal, Your Honours.
7 MR. ALARID:
8 Q. And I would also admit the statement of 14 April 2008 as
9 1D10-2131, and B/C/S version is 1D10-2138, also to the ICTY.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. ALARID: No further questions, Your Honour.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit number 1D69, under
13 seal, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.
15 Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Let me introduce myself my name is Djuro Cepic. I defend
21 Mr. Sredoje Lukic.
22 A. Pleased to meet you.
1 A. Thank you very much.
2 Q. I would like to ask you to please listen carefully to my --
3 A. Well, if you ask me clear questions and I can focus, I'll make
4 sure to provide good answers for you.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Can we please now go back to the situation
6 when the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad. At the time you were not in town
7 yourself. You only arrived later with your husband and two sons; right?
8 A. What do you mean the Uzice Corps entering Visegrad?
9 Q. Well, you said that today, didn't you?
10 A. Yes. I went to Rogatica and then I was back, but before that I
11 was in Visegrad. I spent more time in Visegrad than I was away for.
12 Q. Thank you. I want to know about the situation when you went back
13 to Visegrad.
14 A. Yes, yes. Just clarify everything you've got, and I'll explain
15 how it was.
16 Q. Is it true that there were considerable numbers of Muslims who
17 were hiding in the woods, many of them in their basements and other
18 places, too, in order to keep safe; right?
19 A. No, no, no. That wasn't true. People went to work. They never
20 hid anywhere. There was nothing like that, nothing of the kind you
21 suggest in your question.
22 Q. Upon your return to Visegrad, did you go back to your family home
23 in Dusce?
24 A. Yes. I went back from Rogatica six days later.
25 Q. Isn't it true that at the time there was a curfew that had been
1 imposed; right?
2 A. Yes, that's true. There was a curfew. We couldn't leave or go
3 anywhere. People were standing guard. There were several points at
4 which they were standing guard. On the way back from Rogatica, they
5 harassed us, Where are you off to, where are you going, give us your
6 weapons. All sorts of mistreatments. Let me not even begin to tell you.
7 Q. Thank you. And it was because of such mistreatment that you
8 never left Dusce. You stayed at home with your family and your husband
9 would go to work to the Varda factory?
10 A. Yes, he would always go to work because Behija had received every
11 guarantee that he would be safe. Stanko Pecikoza, in front of me, told
12 him that he would be safe. He guaranteed that.
13 Q. But it was difficult to move about beyond that because there were
14 barricades, check-points. It was impossible because one wanted to avoid
15 humiliation, didn't one?
16 A. There was always humiliation. There was always mistreatment. If
17 you put all of my experience together, you could get a very good novel
18 out of it, I expect.
19 Q. That much is clear. Thank you very much. That situation
20 continued until the time you left Visegrad; right?
21 A. Yes. It was always like that. Mistreatment down to the last day
22 when I left Visegrad on a convoy. I went as far as Bikavac. I spent
23 three days in the woods. I didn't even dare go home. Milan Lukic was
24 out to get me. My mother-in-law told me. She's dead. She died. When I
25 left that group, I went down to the gate to ask Stanko Pecikoza, (redacted)
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you. May I continue?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
20 A. Sredoje was my friend too. We were on visiting terms, but my
21 son's friend. They worked together. He was like he was my own son.
22 Whenever I gave my son a drink, I'd give Sredoje one. Whenever I gave my
23 son something to eat, and -- and then he would joke many times. He'd
24 say, You Muslims should be killed like flies, and we would just laugh,
25 you know, but it was jestful. He was saying this as a joke, you know.
1 He said, You Muslims, you should be done away with. But eventually he
2 ended up doing what he'd been promising all these years.
3 Q. He and your son were great friends, right?
4 A. Yes. They were great friends because my son was a good person.
5 He was not a wicked person. He loved Sredoje as though Sredoje were his
6 own brother. Why didn't Sredoje do anything for his father, to make sure
7 Milan didn't kill him, if they were friends? That's what I'm asking you.
8 Q. All right. We're getting to that, but he was good friends with
9 your husband too?
10 A. He was friends with all of us. We were on visiting terms. We
11 would go visit them at their home and that sort of thing. And why did he
12 do that? I'm asking you that. Why he do that?
13 Q. Thank you. You would help each other out, building your homes,
14 that sort of thing, right?
15 A. What do you mean?
18 A. Yes. My husband was quite good at this and he was a very good
19 man. He was famous for that, and we were a famous family for being as
20 good we were. I think the only thing that really mattered was my husband
21 was a Muslim. And then sometimes when Bajram came, he would fast. I
22 think that's what everybody was bothered by, but that was the only thing
23 they could have possibly minded because they never even harmed a fly, not
24 my children, not my husband, not no one.
25 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. Can you just keep your answers short.
1 A. Yes. Whatever I know, I'll tell you. I'll tell you the truth
2 and nothing but the truth.
3 Q. You were furious about Sredoje because he wasn't there to help
4 your husband and your son later on when they needed help?
5 A. Furious, why? Can you explain that?
6 Q. You were furious, you were mad with Sredoje because he wasn't
7 there to help your son Fikret when Fikret come to grief?
8 A. He wouldn't have helped him out. He would have killed him like
9 he killed his father, right?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... are we in
11 private or?
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open and I'm making two more redactions.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You just mentioned the son's name.
14 MR. CEPIC: Mm-hmm. Oh, I kindly ask redaction of the names,
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll have those redacted.
17 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, you remember the statement that you gave,
19 the first statement you made to the OTP, right?
20 A. You read it for me so I make sure what it was that I said. And
21 I'm going to tell you one thing: It's true. I never said anything but
22 the truth, the very truth. That's all I ever said.
23 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Exhibit number
24 1D68, please.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, as we're waiting for the exhibit to come
1 up, you will agree with this: When Sredoje came to visit you, there was
2 always a friendly atmosphere always, full of friendship between your son
3 and Sredoje Lukic, wouldn't you agree with that?
4 A. Yes. The atmosphere was like that. But what did Sredoje do, I'm
5 asking you? He did what he did. That's what he did.
6 Q. We'll be coming to that later on. Thank you.
7 MR. CEPIC: Maybe it could be easy if I gave ERN number
8 2D02-0221, please.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, I will read a portion of this to you and
10 then you can comment.
11 A. Sure. Whatever I know. You just need to make it neat for me so
12 I understand.
13 Q. I would just like to ask you to focus on my questions and answer
14 them. Can we please have page 3 in the B/C/S. [Previous translation
15 continues] ... [In English] ... in B/C/S. Third paragraph in English,
16 fourth paragraph in B/C/S.
17 [Interpretation] You say that driver was sitting in the car. It
18 was a dark red Passat, right?
19 A. Which driver?
20 Q. And you said: "I assume that the driver was his brother."
21 A. Sredoje Lukic.
22 Q. Because they were always together?
23 A. Yes. They were always together.
24 Q. Therefore you will agree with me that you did not see that. It
25 was merely an assumption on your part, as you state?
1 A. I didn't look him in the eye. I didn't dare to look because as
2 soon as you had a look at them, they would shoot straight away.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
4 MR. CEPIC: Transcript, transcript.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Transcript, transcript.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So for fear of not being yet another victim, you didn't even look
8 that way, did you?
9 A. No, not at the car, not at the Fico. I saw Milan walk up to the
10 car, Dzemo Zukic leave the car, and Behka, Behija Zukic, and then we all
11 walked on together towards Varda.
12 Q. But out of fear, you didn't see the driver in the Fico, in the
13 other red car?
14 A. Yes. He was sitting in the Fico, in the Fiat car.
15 Q. Madam, but there's none of that in your statement. How come all
16 the changes today?
17 A. I always said the same thing. I don't know why it's not in the
18 statement. What I say, I maintain. That's how I was brought up.
19 Q. I'm asking you about the Varda factory, and in front of the
20 Varda, the first day of the Bajram holiday?
21 A. On the eve of Bajram.
22 Q. Yes, on the eve of Bajram. You didn't see who was in the
23 vehicle, and you clearly said that in your statement. Isn't that right?
24 A. I didn't personally see. Two men, Sredoje Lukic and Milan Lukic
25 were driving the Passat from Dzemo Zukic and nobody else ever drove that
2 Q. Thank you. But you personally didn't see them?
3 A. I did. Personally from my terrace I saw it.
4 Q. We'll come to that, but thank you.
5 MR. CEPIC: Could we have --
6 Q. [Interpretation] Were you watching from the terrace or from the
8 A. From the terrace. I indicated with an arrow where I was. I had
9 several terraces, not just one. Sredoje Lukic knows very well how many
10 terraces I had.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. CEPIC: Could we have 1D69, or if it's easier to find in
13 e-court system 2D02-0256, the witness statement from 14th of April, 2008.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, do you remember that you talked to the
15 representatives of the OTP in April?
16 A. I don't know who I talked to. I talked to lots of people because
17 I talk to everybody. I don't know what the date was. I don't remember
18 any of that.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... [overlapping
21 speakers]... please.
22 Q. [Interpretation] I'll read it out, the last sentence in paragraph
23 9 of your statement. You're describing everything that happened and then
24 you say: "Milan Lukic entered the car. The driver was there too, but I
25 did not see who that was. They drove by my house on their way towards
2 Has that refreshed your memory, madam?
3 A. Well, what did you say? When they got to the gate to take the
4 people away? Is that what you said?
5 Q. I'll read the whole paragraph if you find it easier.
6 A. Well, of course it's easier. Now I'm telling you what I'm
7 telling you and that's how it was. That's how I must say it. So there's
8 no need looking at me. It was like it was just as I'm sitting here now.
9 Q. Madam, just short answers, please. You say: "I saw Milan Lukic
10 enter the gate and saw Rasim Karaman exit the administration building."
11 A. Ramiz Karaman is his name.
12 Q. And you can see the administration building from your terrace.
13 Isn't that right?
14 A. You can see everything, absolutely everything.
15 Q. Thank you. And then you go on to say that Milan Lukic told Ahmed
16 and Ramiz to wait by the car, and then you state that Milan Lukic got
17 into the car and that a driver was there, but you didn't see who it was.
18 Now let's focus on the administrative building as you see it.
19 A. Yes, let's focus on that, and I'll tell you how it was, and you
20 listen to me carefully because it's the way I say it. You weren't there.
21 I was there and I know exactly how it was.
22 Q. May I ask you something, madam?
23 A. Yes. You can ask me and you can ask me to repeat what I said and
24 I'll repeat exactly how it was. You want me to say it one more time to
25 make it even clearer?
1 Q. Madam, please, I'm here to ask the questions.
2 A. You're asking me questions I don't understand and I keep telling
3 you the same thing, the way it must be. Now you're putting me right, but
4 it's not how you want to hear it, it's how I'm saying it.
5 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I have to say that we haven't got
6 LiveNote system. Actually, my assistant haven't got that system.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: There seems to be another technical problem with
8 the LiveNote. I'll ask the technical people to attend to that. Let us
10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we have in e-court
11 system P157, please. Could we have zoom out, please. Do you recall a
12 different exhibit 1 -- P153, please. We have a better view.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, we can see Dusce here?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We can see your house, the big house. Now, would you point, if
16 you can, and draw the direction of the administrative building?
17 A. Yes, I can do that.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Now, that small little house next to the building, is that what
21 you mean?
22 A. No. This is the office building.
23 Q. And what -- where's the administrative building where the other
24 people are?
25 A. Over here.
1 Q. How far is it from here?
2 A. Well, not far. The gutter is over here and that's where the
3 people were taken. Now, let me show you where he took my husband.
4 Q. Listen to my question carefully.
5 A. I am not literate. I'm telling you what I know.
6 Q. You mentioned the administration building on the Varda factory.
7 A. The Varda factory was further away. I just mentioned these
8 offices here from where my husband was taken, but the furniture factory
9 was down, further down where Milan took the Passat from Dzemo Zukic and
10 then you have the sawmill. That's further off.
11 MR. CEPIC: Could we have an exhibit number for this photo,
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you want to have that admitted?
14 MR. CEPIC: Yes, please.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number 2D21, Your Honours.
17 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much. Could we have -- zoom in on
18 this photo, and the house, if possible, as big as possible.
19 Your Honour, if I may know what time will be break, just to
20 consider my questions.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Five minutes.
22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, now we can see your house better. Can we
24 zoom in a bit more?
25 A. Thank you. I can see it very well too.
1 MR. CEPIC: If it's possible on the right side. Just a little
2 bit more, one centimetre or two. Thank you very much.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Now we can see your house there. Could you tell
4 me -- I can see two terraces. Am I right that you have an upper and a
5 lower terrace?
6 A. Yes, you are right.
7 Q. Were they red painted metal railings to the terraces?
8 A. Yes, that's right, red painted metal.
9 Q. And what about the door, the door going out into the terrace, was
10 it a wooden door?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were they wooden doors?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What about the upper storey where that window is just under the
15 roof? Were they wooden boards or not?
16 A. No, they weren't wooden boards.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you make a circle around the upper terrace to
18 your house?
19 A. You mean this one up here?
20 Q. Yes. Is that where you were and observed things?
21 A. Yes, and that's where I lived.
22 Q. Thank you. Would you put a B next to the balcony, just beside
24 A. I can't write anything.
25 Q. All right. An X then, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. That's fine.
3 A. I don't know if I managed to mark that properly.
4 Q. So that's the upper terrace where you were standing and watching
6 A. Yes, when my husband was taken and all the rest of it.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues]...
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: It's admitted as 2D22, under seal, Your Honours.
10 MR. CEPIC: May I ask Madam Usher to distribute this. Could we
11 have one for witness, please?
12 MR. FARR: Perhaps we could just go into closed session,
13 Your Honour.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Pages 2847-2852 redacted. Private session.
23 Q. [Interpretation] While we're waiting for this to come up, madam,
24 let me ask you this: Are you not a member of the association known as
25 Women Victims Of The War led by Bakira Hasecic?
1 A. No, that's not true. I'm not a member of any association. All I
2 want to know in this world is my household and my children. I am a
19 Re-examination by Mr. Farr:
20 Q. Witness, on cross-examination you were asked some questions about
21 statements that you gave in Visoko. Can you describe for the Court the
22 conditions under which those statements were given?
23 A. I gave some statements. Some people came over, several different
24 groups, to see how we lived as refugees and for us to tell them more
25 about how exactly this happened, who was killed, who lost whom. So we
1 gave statements about all of these. And it wasn't just me. There were
2 thousands and thousands of souls from Foca, from Visegrad, from all over,
3 Visoko, Munstra [phoen]. Thousands and thousands of souls. We were
4 packed like sardines in a tin can. We had nowhere to even lie down. We
5 would lie down on the floor. My kidneys were ruined, and I had no idea
6 at the time what had become of any of my nearest and dearest. Just to
7 remember that day, we had to leave on convoys and how we were mistreated
8 in all sorts of ways.
9 Q. If I could just direct you more specifically to the occasions
10 upon which you gave these statements. Do you remember how many people
11 were present as witnesses when you were giving these statements?
12 A. Believe it or not, there would have to be 20, 30 people even in
13 those halls, what have you, rooms. Those were classrooms in a school,
14 and then depends on how many people happened to sit in on an interview,
15 and then everybody had something to say. They gave us paper to write
16 things down with a pen. That's how it was.
17 MR. FARR: Your Honour, could we move into open session if we're
18 currently in private session?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Open session, yes.
20 [Open session]
21 MR. FARR:
22 Q. You said that there were many people --
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 MR. FARR:
25 Q. Witness, you said that there were many people present in these
1 interviews. Was information taken down from all of these many witnesses?
2 A. Believe me, I don't know. I was hardly in touch with anyone. I
3 had my grandchildren. I socialised with them. I spent my time with
4 them, not anyone else. I'm sure there are more people who should make
5 statements. I'm sure there are people who refused to make statements
6 because they're afraid. I'm not afraid. I stop at nothing. I am here
7 to tell the truth because that is my only motive. My only ambition, to
8 tell the truth. And I'd never talk about stuff that I didn't see. There
9 were other people who were killed in Musici and other villages, but I
10 wasn't there, was I? So I'm not going to be telling you about that. I'm
11 going to be telling you about my village.
12 MR. FARR: Could the court officer bring up Exhibit 1D66, the
13 B/C/S version on the left side of e-court and Exhibit 1D69 on the right
14 side of e-court. Sorry, the English version of 1D69, and zoom in on the
15 signatures at the bottom of each page.
16 Q. Witness, can you see the two statements on the screen in front of
18 A. Yes. I don't know what it says though. I see, but I can't read
19 it because I didn't go to school. I see that I signed this.
20 Q. And which of those two statements did you sign?
21 A. This one.
22 Q. Would that be the statement on the right or the left?
23 A. Yes, yes, on the right.
24 Q. And the signature on the statement on the left, is that your
1 A. No. I don't know how to do that. I can't sign a document like
2 that. I didn't go to school. This is as much as I learned, just to mark
3 it, as it were.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. FARR: Could the court officer please bring up Exhibit 1D67
6 on the left side. And it looks like it's actually been brought up on the
7 right side of e-court, which is fine, but could we zoom in on the
8 signature at the bottom of the page.
9 Q. Witness, looking at the signature on the bottom of the page on
10 the right side in e-court, is that your signature?
11 A. No. I wasn't able to sign it like that. Maybe I gave someone my
12 ID, because we were several witnesses there when these things were
13 signed, but I don't know. I told you there were several of us in a room
14 each time the statements were given and when we told our story.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, you've been wearing eye-glasses in court
16 today. Do you use those glasses to see things up close or at a distance?
17 A. Up close, up close. When something needs doing back at home, for
18 example, if I'm cooking lunch, then I have to put my glasses on.
19 Q. What was the condition of your eyesight in 1992?
20 A. Great, couldn't be better. I was exceptionally healthy.
21 Sredoje Lukic can tell you what I looked like at the time. I never
22 thought that anything like this would strike me.
23 MR. FARR: I think Mr. Cepic may have something to say.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. --
25 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave I think last two or
1 three questions are not raised from the cross-examination. This is
2 something different.
3 MR. FARR: Your Honour, cross-examination focused on the ability
4 of the witness to accurately observe events at a distance, so I think
5 that it does in fact arise out of cross.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, yes.
7 MR. FARR: Could we move into private session for a few
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 2860-2866 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
8 MR. ALARID: Simply in a response to the designation, I believe
9 that it's proper for viva voce; namely, not just the points Mr. Groome
10 brought up but also we were disclosed as part of the batch that on the
11 26th of October, 2008, there is an additional witness statement which
12 is -- involves clarifications of the 2000 statement that go into quite a
13 bit of detail and quite a bit of changes, in fact. And considering the
14 fact that you need to lay a foundation that earlier statements would be
15 the same as if written today, simply that clearly they weren't as of
16 October 26th as several -- these clarifications were made to her
17 statement and she signed this statement as well, but I think all -- all
18 in all, it goes to show that the earlier statements needed clarification.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the time estimate for this witness?
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, if we were permitted to call her 92 ter
21 it would be approximately 30 minutes. If we were required to call her
22 viva voce, I believe it would probably be about two hours.
23 And just to respond to what Mr. Alarid said, I was going to make
24 a submission on this. The witness had several clarifications to her one
25 ICTY statement. We endeavoured, in order to save time in court, to
1 prepare that as an addendum statement with clarifications. I'd be
2 perfectly happy to lead those additional clarifications viva voce as part
3 of a 92 ter process, or to submit that one page addendum statement which
4 contains the minor clarifications. So the intention was to seek to admit
5 her ICTY statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter and then to seek to admit the
6 few clarifications that she made to that statement in order to facilitate
7 things and make the process as efficient as possible.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that would be half an hour?
9 MS. MARCUS: Yes. If the statement were accepted as such, yes,
10 Your Honour, that would be approximately half an hour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you will have an opportunity to
12 cross-examine, of course, under 92 ter, both counsel.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will hear the evidence under 92 ter.
16 Let the witness make the declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit. And you may begin, Ms. Marcus.
20 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours. Could I request that the
21 pseudonym sheet be shown to the witness.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-064
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
25 Q. Madam Witness, can you hear me clearly?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You've been granted protective measures of a pseudonym and your
3 face -- and your face is being distorted for the purposes of these
4 proceedings. Can you confirm that your name and date of birth appear on
5 the paper in front of you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you kindly sign that paper.
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to request that the court officer to show
10 that to the Defence and to the Chamber, and then I'd like to tender that
11 into evidence under seal, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit number P158, under seal,
14 Your Honours.
15 MS. MARCUS: I'd also like to request the court officer to please
16 provide the witness with a reference sheet.
17 Q. Madam Witness, the paper in front of you will contain the names
18 of other persons who have also been granted protective measures by this
19 Tribunal. Therefore, I request that if you were to name them in your
20 testimony that you kindly use their pseudonym that you see on the page in
21 front of you rather than their names. Do you understand?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. VG-064, can you tell us where you were born?
24 A. I was born in Dobrun, Visegrad municipality.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up,
1 please, and approach the microphones. Thank you.
2 MS. MARCUS:
3 Q. Madam Witness, you've been requested to -- if you could, to move
4 forward slightly so the microphones can pick up what you're saying.
5 A. Yes. Can you hear me now?
6 Q. Thank you. Are you married?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you have any children?
9 A. I do, two.
10 Q. What is your profession?
11 A. I'm a saleswoman, salesperson.
12 Q. Do you recall giving a statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. To the -- do you recall giving a statement to the Tribunal on
15 Sunday, the 26th of October, 2008? That would be yesterday.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was that -- I see my colleague on his feet?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
19 MR. CEPIC: I apologise but we haven't got -- received any
20 statement. We just received the proofing note.
21 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
22 MR. CEPIC: And that was yesterday. Thank you.
23 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, the draft was sent yesterday at the end
24 of the proofing session, immediately after receiving the information.
25 And in the e-mail that the proofing note was attached to, we informed
1 Defence counsel that we would be formalising it into an addendum
2 statement, again in an effort to expedite the process of making the minor
3 clarifications and saving the time for the substantive matters. So this
4 morning the statement was finalised and signed, translated into B/C/S and
5 sent to the Defence this morning.
6 May I continue, Your Honours?
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm really cogitating on this recurring
8 problem. So they have -- the statement was in fact sent to them.
9 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. This is a proofing note but
10 because -- it's basically a proofing note -- but in order to save -- I
11 see we're using court time now discussing it, so I'll be happy to lead
12 these corrections live, but they're corrections like instead of the word
13 "to" it should be "toward." And in order to just expedite the process
14 and save the precious 30 minutes for the substance, we just prepared it
15 in the form of a signed statement which we'll seek to admit with the
16 statement. That's all. It's just clarification.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
18 MS. MARCUS:
19 Q. So, Madam Witness, did you give a statement to the Tribunal
20 yesterday, the 26th of October, 2008?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Was the statement read back to you in the Bosnian language?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Did you sign that statement?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions now which you were asked
2 in providing that statement, would your answers be the same?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I would like to tender the statement
5 of the 26th of October, 2008, into evidence.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
7 MS. MARCUS: -- something that would have come in private
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MS. MARCUS:
11 Q. Madam Witness, did you give a statement to investigators of the
12 ICTY on the 14th of May and 13th of June of the year 2000?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review that statement in the
15 Bosnian language before coming to court today?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. MARCUS: Could I request the court officer to please call up
18 65 ter number 124. And that would be e-court page 5. I'm sorry, let's
19 begin -- let's begin on the front cover. I'm sorry. Just the front
21 Q. VG-064, do you see the page on the screen in front of you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you see your date of birth there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is that your correct date of birth?
1 A. No. It says the 12th of October, and I was born on the 17th of
3 Q. Thank you. Can we go now to page 4 in the English. To the
4 bottom paragraph on that page.
5 Madam Witness, do you see the paragraph that begins with the
6 words: "The last time I went there was on the 25th of June 1992"?
7 A. What did you say? I didn't understand you because the screen was
9 Q. Do you see a paragraph at the bottom of that page which begins
10 with the words: "The last time I went there was on 25th of June 1992"?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Can you read the line right after that?
13 A. Yes. "On that day, I was supposed to leave Visegrad on a convoy
14 to the small town of Visoko." It should say to Kladanj and Olovo, not
16 Q. Thank you. Could we now please turn to page 7 of the English
17 statement. The first paragraph. I'm just waiting for the corresponding
18 Bosnian version.
19 Madam Witness, in the top paragraph you say the words: "At that
20 time, Fikreta was two months pregnant."
21 A. No, she was four months pregnant.
22 Q. Thank you. Could we turn to page 8, please, in the English.
23 Down to paragraph five.
24 Madam Witness, there's a line on this page which says: "Then
25 Milan Lukic entered the house where we were detained and took out --" I'd
1 like to go into private session. Sorry.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.
3 [Private session]
11 Page 2876 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
15 MS. MARCUS:
16 Q. Your statements have been entered into evidence, and thus, I will
17 not be going through the entirety of your experiences during this court
18 hearing. However, I will ask you a few questions on a few matters which
19 you raise in your statement.
20 Excuse me one moment.
21 In the spring of 1992 when the war began, where did you reside?
22 A. I lived in the village of Musici, Visegrad municipality.
23 Q. Where is Musici in relation to the town of Visegrad?
24 A. It's five kilometres away from Visegrad towards Visegradska Banja
25 or spa. And you turn left there -- well, anyways, it's five kilometres
1 away from Visegrad.
2 Q. Did you live with anyone?
3 A. I lived with my husband and two children.
4 Q. Now, I don't know if the statement is still up, but I would like
5 to return to this statement. It's P159. Could I request e-court page 5
6 in the English and page 4 in the Bosnian, B/C/S. In the middle of the
7 page, please.
8 Madam Witness, I'd like to ask you to read for us two paragraphs
9 from your statement.
10 MS. MARCUS: And for this I'm afraid, Your Honours, we'll need to
11 go into private session again.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.
15 MS. MARCUS:
16 Q. Please begin with the paragraph starting: "In the late afternoon
17 on the same day, another group ..." Do you see where I'm referring to?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Please read -- please kindly read that paragraph and the
20 following one.
21 A. "In the late afternoon on the same day, another group of 15 armed
22 men and one woman arrived in the village of Musici. The group was
23 driving a BMW, a VW, our own car, 128, and a Yugo. The men had black
24 painted faces and some were wearing a fur hat with a cockade on, the
25 so-called Subara. They also brought with them a black flag with a skull
1 and bones.
2 "The members of the group ordered all inhabitants of the village
3 to gather in the house of my father-in-law (redacted). The leader of
4 the group gave a speech there. First he introduced himself as
5 Milan Lukic and then he introduced his group and said, This is my police.
6 Then he asked about the shooting from the village of Musici on police
7 patrols passing by the village. There were some verbal threats too.
8 Then he counted us. I don't remember how many we were. And finally he
9 promised to protect us. He had blue jeans on and a black shirt. He also
10 had a cap with a skull and -- on his head. Well, it wasn't a cap, it was
11 a hat, and he had black stripes on his face."
12 Q. In the section you just read, you mentioned that the group came
13 in a BMW, a Volkswagen, your own car, and a Yugo. Are those all the cars
14 that you recall seeing?
15 A. I saw -- well, there was Behija Zukic's Passat in a burgundy
16 colour, but it's not mentioned there. And that car was driven by
17 Milan Lukic personally.
18 Q. How do you know --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, I'm sorry to stop you but it's after
20 the time for us to break. So we're going to adjourn now and we'll resume
21 tomorrow at 2.15.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day
24 of October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.