081201ED

Page 3603

1 Monday, 1 December 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.51 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Today, we are to hear the Defence of

6 Sredoje Lukic. Mr. Cepic.

7 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Our first witness is

8 Mr. Veroljub Zivkovic, and we will have no opening statement.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You'll have no opening statement. I should say

10 that the motion that you made for the witnesses to testify under 92 ter

11 is granted.

12 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Subject, of course, to the requirements of the

14 rule being met. You know what those requirements are.

15 There is one other matter I should mention. It's Sredoje Lukic's

16 motion for certification to appeal the decision of the 13th November,

17 2008, in relation to the admission of a particular exhibit. The Chamber,

18 I am to say, will deny that motion, and a written decision will be given

19 later today or, at the latest, tomorrow.

20 I want also to mention, Mr. Ivetic, you're here. Mr. Alarid is

21 not here?

22 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. He's still traveling in the

23 United States. He should be returning Wednesday morning, Your Honours,

24 from the States.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Okay. I just wanted to mention and to

Page 3604

1 recall the Chamber's order pursuant to Rule 73 ter of the 27th of

2 November. We allowed the Defence of Milan Lukic to call 45 witnesses

3 within 60 hours of examination-in-chief. The reasons for the decision

4 are set out in the Chamber's decision, and I want to say that the Chamber

5 will hold the Defence strictly to the time framework that it has

6 identified.

7 I notice there is no application for protective measures from

8 either side. Mr. Ivetic, does that mean that you have no application for

9 protective measures?

10 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour. What it means is that we have not

11 had an opportunity to go out in the field to meet with the witnesses and

12 ask specifically of each one for protective measures. We do know about

13 the MLD alibi witnesses, that they did require protective measures, and

14 an application will be brought shortly for those; so there is at least a

15 group that will have protective measures, although we suspect that group

16 will expand in size once we have an opportunity to interview fully the

17 witnesses who end up being on the final list to see who would want to

18 apply for protective measures and what their basis would be for those

19 protective measures.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are aware, of course, that normally you file

21 a motion. It's done in court exceptionally. I've allowed the

22 Prosecution exceptionally to make oral applications, but the normal rule

23 I expect to apply, that's a motion, so it can be considered by the

24 Trial Chamber with the other party being given an opportunity to comment

25 on it, so that the protective measures for witnesses to be heard before

Page 3605

1 the Christmas recess may exceptionally be made orally, but must be done

2 so at the earliest opportunity. The measures for witnesses to be heard

3 after the recess, they should be made at least two weeks prior to

4 testimony.

5 MR. IVETIC: We will try to stick to that, Your Honour, and there

6 will be written motions. If we could be back up, Your Honour, for some

7 clarification as to the order pursuant to Rule 73 ter, which we are

8 working to try and comply with for the tomorrow deadline. We wanted to

9 bring to Your Honours' attention, there are about seven witnesses on our

10 list who are witnesses that were OTP witnesses who are being merely

11 brought to authenticate their statements to be introduced into evidence,

12 and there are five document custodian witnesses who are being put on the

13 list because of the Prosecution's insistence that even requests for --

14 requests for assistance be authenticated by the records custodians. We

15 would ask for at least those 12 witnesses to be -- to not count towards

16 the 45 that we have since these are really witnesses that are being

17 brought upon the direction of the OTP for administrative matters that

18 really ought to be quick, and they are not really substantive witnesses

19 going towards the flow of events to the Defence. So we'd like to bring

20 that to the Court's attention, and we will work on trying to at least

21 pare down the witness list and at least give groups of potential

22 witnesses where we would call one out of five, one out of six, depending

23 on who's available and who has the most -- the most -- best recollection

24 of events to present the best testimony for this Trial Chamber.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say that the witnesses are being brought as

Page 3606

1 a result of the Prosecution's insistence.

2 MR. IVETIC: Correct, Your Honour. They -- they --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you clarify that.

4 MR. IVETIC: Sure, if I can. We have several witnesses for whom

5 they were OTP witnesses. They were either named in this case as OTP

6 witnesses or disclosed as OTP witnesses for the Vasiljevic case. They

7 have sworn statements that contradict in many times family members or

8 other OTP witnesses who did come here to testify, and we would be

9 bringing them just to authenticate those OTP statements, which at one

10 point in time the Prosecution even said, we don't know how --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please slow down.

12 MR. IVETIC: -- they're the statements of the OTP. So ... I

13 apologise. The Prosecution said that they are not reliable, but those

14 are OTP statements. So in essence, those that were being forced to bring

15 live individuals to introduce statements, we could perhaps do that under

16 a 92 bis except for the fact that the Prosecution is refusing to give us

17 the contact information for those witnesses, but in any event, even if we

18 were to bring perhaps --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Again, would the counsel please slow down.

20 MR. IVETIC: -- count towards our 45 total, because they're being

21 brought upon the insistence of the Prosecution and not stipulating to

22 some --

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I hesitate to interrupt, but no one has

24 earphones on. The interpreters are asking you to slow down, Mr. Ivetic.

25 Several times now.

Page 3607

1 MR. IVETIC: I apologize, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You do tend to speak very fast --

3 MR. IVETIC: I do. I know that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- so you have to make a special effort to slow

5 down.

6 MR. IVETIC: Yes. In this courtroom, I tend to speak even faster

7 it seems than the smaller courtroom.

8 So as I was saying, Your Honour, if we bring those seven former

9 OTP witnesses and five document custodial -- custodian-type witnesses, we

10 would ask for the Court to clarify its order or reconsider its order to

11 not have those count towards our 45 witness total that was specified in

12 the Rule 73 ter order. Thank you.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just a brief comment. I don't recall

16 ever having made such a blanket statement with respect to the reliability

17 of OTP statements. It seems to me that if Mr. Ivetic wishes to introduce

18 the statements of witnesses, there is a procedure for that. He's correct

19 in saying it's 92 bis, and we'd be happy to, where appropriate, not

20 oppose admission of certain statements with respect to 92 bis. He raises

21 an issue with respect to the Prosecution providing the contact details of

22 the witnesses. I'm not sure that's necessary for 92 bis because 92 bis

23 would allow the registrar simply to go and validate or take the sworn

24 portion of the statement, but I am mindful of that, and I am mindful that

25 I have no ownership of witnesses.

Page 3608

1 What I have tried to do to resolve this is I've -- I don't feel

2 comfortable handing over to Milan Lukic the addresses and the phone

3 numbers of witnesses without their consent, so I can either contact those

4 witnesses and find out whether they do consent, or it seems to me one

5 other way to do this is to have a neutral party, such as VWS, contact the

6 witnesses and perhaps arrange some communication between the Defence team

7 and the witness. I've spoken to Mr. De Witt, the head of VWS, on Friday,

8 about his views on this, and he's going to let me know today whether he

9 thinks it's something that VWS could appropriately undertake. So, you

10 know, I will report back to the Chamber when Mr. De Witt let's me know

11 what his views are on it, but it seems to me, that would be one way to

12 deal with this matter. I would provide the contact information to VWS

13 and leave it to them to, in a way that is mindful of the wishes and the

14 security of the witnesses, to place them -- place the Defence team in

15 communication with those witnesses.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are these witnesses in respect of whom

17 protective measures have been applied?

18 MR. GROOME: I'm not sure all of them. I think some of them may

19 have had some protective measures at some point, Your Honour. I would

20 have to check that before I could speak specifically to that, but again,

21 I'm not comfortable simply handing over the contact details. Of course,

22 if the Chamber orders me, to I'll certainly comply with that order; but

23 it seemed to me the more appropriate way to do this would be to have a

24 neutral party contact those witnesses and make some arrangements, either

25 through a conference call that they could arrange between Defence counsel

Page 3609

1 and the witness if the Defence counsel want to speak to these people

2 directly, or they could simply ask the witness, are they happy to have

3 their contact information provided to the Defence? But it seemed to me

4 by placing that in a neutral party, it would avoid any kind of concern

5 they may be asked in a leading way whether or not they wanted to speak

6 with Defence.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, please stand. I'm not going to rule

9 on your request that -- is it 12 witnesses? 12 witnesses not be counted,

10 in the number -- among the 45 witnesses that the Chamber has indicated

11 the Defence will be allowed to call. I'm not going to rule on that now.

12 I will consider it.

13 You must file a motion, a written motion, and file that motion

14 today. Similarly, I advise you also to file a motion requesting that the

15 Trial Chamber consider requiring the Prosecutor to provide the contact

16 details of the witnesses in question. That will give the Chamber some

17 time to consider it. I can see arguments going both ways, and so I don't

18 wish to rule on that now.

19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just maybe one additional matter to

21 maybe relieve Mr. Ivetic of some of his burden. He said that the

22 Prosecution was opposing any -- requiring people to come and authenticate

23 requests for assistance. I will state on the record that the Prosecution

24 will accept any request of assistance made to a government. So if any

25 government in response to a request for assistance by the Milan Lukic

Page 3615

1 MR. GROOME: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zivkovic. My name is Dermot Groome, and I'll

4 be asking you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution, okay? I first

5 want to ask you about your relationship with Sredoje Lukic. Would it be

6 fair to say that you know him for approximately 20 years?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And would you consider yourself a good friend of Sredoje Lukic's?

9 A. We were acquaintances. We were not dear friends. My best

10 friends live where I live, and I see them every day, but I was good a

11 good acquaintance with him. We were sound acquaintances, so to speak.

12 Q. Well, during the war, you and Sredoje Lukic lived quite close to

13 each other. Is that not correct?

14 A. Sredoje Lukic lived in that village of Krtinska, relatively

15 close. I don't know what you mean by the word "close."

16 Q. Well, how far did he live from your home?

17 A. Around 1 and a half kilometers while he used to live in the

18 centre of the village, 1 and a half kilometers, approximately.

19 Q. Now, do you recall having -- or giving an interview to an

20 investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor, Phillip Caine, about your

21 testimony here today? Do you recall having such an interview?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, during that interview, you stated that after the war began,

24 Sredoje Lukic would come from Visegrad to visit his family in Obrenovac,

25 and you also described that he would bring you things from Visegrad. Let

Page 3616

1 me read a portion of your statement.

2 MR. GROOME: And for counsel, I'll be referring to the English

3 translation of the statement when I give the transcript references.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cepic.

5 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we gave -- actually, we found many

6 errors, even in B/C/S translation, and I never found that Sredoje Lukic

7 brought the things to this witness.

8 MR. GROOME: I'm about to read the actual passage.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the passage.

10 MR. GROOME: And counsel can check the transcript.

11 Q. So this is on page 21 of that transcript, line 4, and it says:

12 "Many times he," referring to Sredoje Lukic, "helped us out too."

13 So my question to you is, how was it that Sredoje Lukic helped

14 you out during the war?

15 A. Sredoje Lukic did not help me out during the war, and this is not

16 my statement, sir.

17 Q. So you don't recall saying that to Phillip Caine?

18 A. No. I did not say this.

19 Q. Okay. As far as you know --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cepic.

21 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry. We have couple versions of that

22 transcript in English, in B/C/S, so could my learned friend Mr. Groome

23 clarify us from which precisely transcript is page 21?

24 MR. GROOME: It's what I told Mr. Cepic before Court and what

25 I've said here in court. There are various translations, and it appears,

Page 3617

1 Your Honour, that the translator that attended the interview was quite

2 poor, made a number of errors that Mr. Cepic has pointed out. So what

3 I'm using is the English translation of the original B/C/S under the view

4 that's what's most important is what question was put -- did the witness

5 hear, and what was the witness's response? So what I'm referring to when

6 I give transcript references, it's the English translation of the B/C/S

7 that was spoken during the course of the interview.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm just wondering, Mr. Groome, if you were to

9 read from the translation what was said just before the disputed passage

10 and what comes after. Maybe we might have a fuller context. Mr. Cepic,

11 you wanted to say something.

12 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour. With your leave, just if we can

13 have from which transcript is -- was 21st page which Mr. Groome quoted.

14 MR. GROOME: Again, it's the English translation of the B/C/S.

15 It's not the merged translation that has the -- what we now know to be

16 incorrect translations made during the course of the interview. It is

17 simply the English translation of the B/C/S, and it bears the number

18 T001-1686.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I was suggesting, Mr. Groome, is that

20 perhaps the witness might have a better recollection of what you put to

21 him, if you reminded him of what went immediately before.

22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'll read the entire passage.

23 Q. So, sir, Mr. Caine asked you the following question: "How do you

24 know that he," referring to Sredoje Lukic, "was coming to visit his

25 family?"

Page 3618

1 And your response was: "Well, because we have time to visit each

2 others, usually on Saturdays and Sundays over the weekend. He was coming

3 usually at that time, and whatever I was doing, something with the car,

4 with the truck, I have only the weekend, since I usually say," and

5 there's a word that was not caught on tape, "since I usually say to find

6 a job. That I do that. Let's say in the afternoons and over the weekend

7 and so. And my house is also on the way. It is in view. It has always

8 been like that, always. Many times he helped us out too. I would give

9 him something, I do not know, some part and so."

10 So again, sir, my question is, do you remember giving that answer

11 to Mr. Phillip Caine? Do you recall giving that answer?

12 A. Yes, I did say what you just read out, but I did not say that he

13 brought things. This is an obvious mistake. I have my own tape while I

14 was giving this statement, and I know that it can be translated in detail

15 what -- the first thing you said, it was not true, but the latter

16 statement that you read out was correct. Yes.

17 Q. So where I read: "Many times he helped us out too." Again, what

18 was the help that Sredoje Lukic gave you and your family, or you?

19 A. While working at Milojko Popadic's, while I was repairing his

20 trucks, and when he would come over the weekend when he was free, Sredoje

21 used to help us out with those trucks. I would give him a part to

22 sandpaper and prepare for installation. In this context, it was that I

23 said this.

24 Q. So that the Chamber is clear, you are a car mechanic in that you

25 fix the locks of cars and you fix the body of cars, and it is your

Page 3619

1 testimony that Sredoje Lukic helped you out during this period. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. I'm a locksmith by trade, but I've been dealing with car body

4 mechanics, painting of cars. I do everything except the mechanical

5 parts. I can deal with everything else concerning cars and trucks.

6 Q. And that's what Sredoje Lukic helped you out with, that type of

7 work, correct?

8 A. Yes. When he would come to Mr. Popadic where I was usually

9 working on trucks over weekends, when Sredoje used to come, he would help

10 out, not always, not regularly, but when he happened to be at

11 Mr. Popadic's.

12 Q. Sir, just in the interest of time, if I could ask you to answer

13 my question with a simple yes or no if possible, I'd appreciate that.

14 Did you attend Sredoje Lukic's wedding?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And can I ask you to clarify the following portion from the

17 transcript. This is page 23 beginning at line 11: "Why I think he

18 worked in Visegrad first, it is because when he got married to Milojko's

19 sister, when they invited me to celebrate it, then they said that he was

20 a policeman and that he worked in Visegrad."

21 Can you explain what you meant when you said that in your

22 interview to Mr. Caine?

23 A. Well, he married -- he married most probably at Visegrad, but

24 first time I visited Milojko Popadic's after his marriage, when he came

25 to that place, I was there working on trucks. This is how we met. But I

Page 3620

1 did not attend his wedding at Visegrad. I've never been to Visegrad in

2 my life.

3 Q. Can I ask you, what height is Sredoje Lukic?

4 A. Sredoje Lukic is around 180 centimetres, give or take a couple of

5 centimetres.

6 Q. What was his age, approximate age, in 1992?

7 A. I don't know exactly. I don't know the year he was born.

8 Q. Your best estimate. Your best estimate.

9 A. 25, 26 years.

10 Q. And --

11 A. What did you mean, when I met him how old he was? I didn't

12 understand your question.

13 Q. In 1992, the period of time that you've come to testify about,

14 that's the time, the age at that time.

15 A. Yes. In 1992, 25, 26 years or thereabouts.

16 Q. And what would have been his approximate weight at that stage?

17 A. Maybe 90, 90 kilogrammes. We are similar, approximately, in

18 stature.

19 Q. And do you ever remember him going unshaven around that time

20 period?

21 A. There were times when he had some leisure time, he did not have

22 any duties. When he was off-duty, he would grow a couple of days' beard,

23 but of course when he went back to work, he had to be clean-shaven

24 because that comes with the job. He was a policeman.

25 Q. And when he had not shaved for a couple of days, would that be

Page 3621

1 something that would be clearly visible?

2 A. I don't understand. What could be visible? What do you mean?

3 Q. Well, I'm asking you is, some people have a light beard, some

4 people have a heavy beard. When he didn't shave for a couple of days,

5 was it something that was readily seen by people who would see him?

6 A. Yes. It could be noticed, yes.

7 Q. Now, there's a witness scheduled to testify here by the name of

8 Milojko Popadic. What is your relationship to Mr. Popadic?

9 A. I'm a good friend with Milojko Popadic. We've been working

10 together for years, and we grew to be friends over that time, following

11 from all the jobs that I did for him at his place.

12 Q. Is it true that Mr. Popadic owns a trucking firm and he regularly

13 gave you work during this period in the repair of his trucks?

14 A. Yes. In 90 per cent of cases, I repaired his trucks, and I still

15 do that when the need arises. Whenever there is a job to be done on a

16 truck, I do it, when he works at construction house or something gets

17 bent or ...

18 Q. Are you also related to him by marriage?

19 A. No. No, we're no relatives.

20 Q. He's not your brother-in-law?

21 A. No.

22 Q. There's also another witness by the name of Branko Bugarski. Is

23 he a friend of yours?

24 A. I do know Branko Bugarski. We're not friends that would visit

25 each other, but I know of him, and he lives in the same community of

Page 3622

1 Krtinska where I live.

2 Q. And have you also done work for his son, Darko?

3 A. Yes. He bought him a truck, and then we overhauled the whole

4 truck, of course, except the mechanics, but the body, the locks, paint,

5 everything except the mechanics.

6 Q. Now, during the war -- I see from your interview with Mr. Caine

7 that you told him that during the war Sredoje Lukic first came to live

8 with Milojko Popadic and then moved to an apartment that Milojko found in

9 the centre of Krtinska. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And who owned the apartment that Milojko found for Sredoje Lukic

12 to live in?

13 A. Branko Bugarski from Krtinska was the owner. His mother used to

14 live there. Then it was empty, vacant, and he rented it out to

15 Mr. Sredoje Lukic.

16 Q. And according to you, on the Day of Holy Trinity in 1992,

17 Sredoje Lukic was living in the apartment owned by Bugarski. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know if he was paying rent?

21 A. I don't know about that, neither did I ask him nor did I have a

22 need to know that.

23 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the following exhibit be called up on

24 e-court. It's 0635-2002.

25 Q. Sir, during -- while that's being called up, during the course of

Page 3623

1 your interview with Mr. Caine, did he ask you to make some marks on a map

2 of Krtinska to indicate where different people lived, including yourself?

3 A. Yes. He showed me a map, but it is not an original map of that

4 village. It would have been much easier if it were an original. It is a

5 tourist map, but I can find my bearings on it.

6 Q. Okay. It's being loaded now, and while we're working with this

7 map, I would ask if we could prepare for e-court the e-court exhibit

8 named Mlad. It's a large photograph. It may take a while to upload.

9 So sir, while we're looking at that map there, is that the map

10 that you made markings on during the interview with Mr. Caine?

11 A. This is better, yes.

12 Q. That's your handwriting?

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. Is there anything you want to change in this map? Is it still

15 accurate?

16 A. It's approximately accurate, but not all the roads and paths are

17 indicated here. There are many more roads and paths than are shown on

18 this map, but I orientate myself by this main road, and this is -- I

19 indicated in relation to that main road where each house is. If I had a

20 precise map of Krtinska, I could show you all the houses.

21 Q. Okay. I think I may be able to assist you with that. So based

22 upon your testimony that this is the map that you marked during your

23 interview --

24 MR. GROOME: -- I would now tender into evidence, Your Honour,

25 ERN 0635-2002.

Page 3624

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P198, Your Honours.

3 MR. GROOME: And I'd ask that the document Mlad be called up.

4 Q. Sir, this is an aerial photograph of the Krtinska village. I'd

5 ask you to take a look at it and ask you, do you recognize it? Are you

6 able to get your bearings from this aerial photograph?

7 A. I don't know where the thermo electrical or power plant is. This

8 is my main reference point. If I were to know where it is in relation to

9 this section, I could tell you where it was.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... and if my learned

11 friend has got a bigger map, and this is map is misleading. Thank you.

12 MR. GROOME: It's simply a picture -- I'm not sure how it could

13 be misleading. It's a photograph taken from the air. I can assist

14 the --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying it's not accurate?

16 MR. CEPIC: This is just part, one part of that suburb. It's not

17 the whole area. This is just part -- this is Mlad. It's not the whole

18 Krtinska. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us see whether the witness can help us

20 with it.

21 MR. GROOME:

22 Q. Sir, if it helps orient you, the power station would be on the

23 road going to the right of the map. Does that assist you? You will be

24 able to make marks on this map, but I just want to see if you're able to

25 orient yourself on this map.

Page 3625

1 A. I cannot.

2 Q. Okay. If you cannot --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It really is not very clear, Mr. Groome.

4 MR. GROOME: If he's not able to identify where it is,

5 Your Honour, then I'll move on.

6 Q. Sir, during your interview with Phillip Caine, you indicated that

7 you knew Sredoje Lukic worked in Belgrade for a period of time, but you

8 were uncertain about when. What is your memory, best memory, with

9 respect to when Sredoje Lukic worked in Belgrade? In the interview, you

10 thought it might have been 1987, 1988, or 1989. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. Approximately from 1988, 1989.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought Mr. Cepic was on his feet, but he's

13 not.

14 MR. CEPIC: It is late on better translation in B/C/S. They

15 started something wrongly and later on it is proper. Thank you. I

16 apologize for interrupting.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Witness. Please give us your answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it was in

19 1988, 1989. I stated that I'm not 100 per cent certain, but

20 approximately that would be it, that period when Sredoje Lukic used to

21 work in Belgrade.

22 MR. GROOME:

23 Q. And for how long a period is it your belief he worked in

24 Belgrade?

25 A. For a brief period, he worked there, but I don't know whether one

Page 3626

1 or two years. A brief period. I remember that by the fact that he would

2 visit Milojko more frequently because that's closer to where he lived at

3 the time.

4 Q. Now, you said that you're not sure, it was either in 1988 or

5 1989. Do you recall in your interview with Mr. Caine you also said that

6 it might also be 1987?

7 A. Well, as I say, during that period I think it was around 1988,

8 1988. I reiterate, I cannot tell you precisely the year, the date. What

9 I do not know, I do not know.

10 Q. Okay, but your memory with respect to dates is quite important in

11 your evidence. You recognize that, don't you?

12 A. Well, yes, that's correct. But I cannot give you a precise date

13 when he worked in Belgrade. He was a policeman in Belgrade. What I do

14 know is that he used to frequent Milojko's place more frequently because

15 he lived closer by.

16 Q. If I could read you a portion of your statement or your interview

17 with Mr. Caine, and if you could tell me whether it's correct, and it's

18 at page 19 beginning on line 20.

19 "If my memory is good, he worked in Belgrade for one period,

20 sometime in 1987, 1988, 1989. I do not know exactly which period. I

21 cannot assert that."

22 Do you recall saying that to Mr. Caine?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you've had numerous cases before the courts of Serbia, some

25 having to do with violations of traffic laws, and others having to do

Page 3627

1 with violations of the law of public order and peace and other violations

2 of the Criminal Code. In order to save time, I've prepared a table from

3 the information we have received from the government of Serbia. I'm

4 going to ask that it be called up.

5 MR. GROOME: It is document ZIV-CONV.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at this table and examine it, and

7 tell us whether it accurately summarizes the numerous cases you have had

8 brought against you.

9 MR. GROOME: Could I ask, to give the witness the benefit of

10 seeing the entire document if it's possible, perhaps we could just look

11 at the B/C/S at this stage, and then if he recognizes ...

12 Q. So, sir, could I ask you just to read over that, and my question

13 to you is, does it accurately summarize the cases that you have had

14 before the courts of Serbia?

15 A. Well, I don't know much about these documents. I had traffic

16 violations. I know that, and I know of another case when there was a

17 traffic jam -- sorry, there was a commotion. My uncle had come, and I

18 arrived then and pulled my uncle out of it.

19 MR. GROOME: Sir, I will ask you some specific questions about

20 one of the cases here. I'm just asking you -- there's three pages to

21 this document. Let me please ask the usher to advance to the second

22 page. If you would look at that, and all I'm asking you is whether the

23 information on this -- again, it's a table created from information

24 received from the government of Serbia, if it appears accurate to you, to

25 be an accurate record of the cases you've had before the courts of

Page 3628

1 Serbia.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But did he address the first page? Did he speak

3 to the accuracy of the first page? You have moved to the second now.

4 MR. GROOME: I was going to give him an opportunity to see the

5 entire document, but I can --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes. Proceed. But let us hear

7 Mr. Cepic.

8 MR. CEPIC: I do not object to this document, but most of this --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Cepic please speak into the

10 microphone. Mr. Cepic is inaudible.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please speak into the microphone. They can't

12 hear you.

13 MR. CEPIC: I apologize. I apologize. Your Honour, I do not

14 object informations, but related to most of these procedures, this

15 witness is acquitted, according to this document, so I don't see the

16 purpose to discuss about some cases where he's acquitted.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it's just an accurate reflection of the

18 cases. I'm certainly not going to question him on anything other than a

19 conviction.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear what the witness says.

21 MR. GROOME:

22 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you be shown the last page. I'm

23 sorry. There's very little on the last page. But sir, do you recognize

24 these is being accurate descriptions of cases that you had before the

25 courts of Serbia?

Page 3629

1 A. Could you please repeat that?

2 Q. The table is a summary of information we received from the

3 government of Serbia regarding cases that you had that were brought

4 against you in the courts of Serbia, so my question to you is, looking at

5 that table, and we can go back to any page that you want to take another

6 look at, does it accurately reflect -- does it agree with your memory of

7 the cases you had before the courts of Serbia?

8 A. I can't remember in the last ten years that I have ever appeared

9 in court. Maybe if you told me again about some of these cases, I would

10 remember, but maybe not.

11 Q. Okay. Well, let's maybe go back to the first page. Let me ask

12 you about number 3 on the first page. Now, on the 13th of April, 2001,

13 you were convicted in the municipal court of Obrenovac of paragraph 1 of

14 Article 220 of the Criminal Code of Serbia, a code starting with the

15 title called "Violent Behavior," and it's a very long title that

16 describes several ways in which that crime can be committed. Do you

17 recall being convicted of that crime in 2001, arising out of an incident

18 that occurred in May of 2000?

19 A. I remember vaguely. It's some sort of disgrace inflicted upon

20 citizens.

21 Q. Before I ask you specific questions about it, do you admit that

22 you were convicted of this crime, this violation of Article 220,

23 paragraph 1? Do you admit that you were convicted of that crime?

24 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. I remember very vaguely some

25 sort of incident, but I don't know if I was convicted or if I was

Page 3630

1 sentenced or fined.

2 Q. Let me call up the judgement --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

4 MR. CEPIC: I think that my learned friend wrongly quoted the

5 paragraph of this article, and also, as I said, we do not object the

6 procedures against this client, but what is the source of -- this table,

7 is it made by OTP or from the government of Republic of Serbia which we

8 have on our screens now?

9 MR. GROOME: As I stated, Your Honour, it is a table made of

10 information provided by the government of Serbia. I do actually have the

11 computer printout from the government detailing all of these cases. It's

12 a little bit hard to read, but I'm certainly happy to call that up and

13 tender that as a companion to this table if Mr. -- and I see Mr. Cepic is

14 agreeing with that procedure. So it'll take me a minute to get that

15 released. It wasn't released before. Then I'll call that up.

16 Q. But for now, could I call up the actual judgement against you,

17 and that is 0645-2787, 0645-2801.

18 While that's being called up, sir, is it your testimony that you

19 do not recall being convicted of a criminal offense seven years ago?

20 A. Well, I had these traffic violations, and if I had any more

21 serious offenses than that, I would need to be reminded. I can't

22 remember.

23 Q. Well, sir, this is an incident that arose and you were accused of

24 driving your car into a fence that was put up by a neighbor of yours.

25 There was some dispute over the fence, that you drove your car knocking

Page 3631

1 down the fence and then assaulted at least one person. Do you recall

2 that? It occurred on the 20th of May, 2000?

3 A. I remember that when I grazed that fence, that man hit me, and

4 then a commotion ensued. I cannot remember all the details, but I

5 remember grazing that fence. Then that man started chasing me, and then

6 we had a clash. That's what I remember, but not the details.

7 Q. You recognize that you've been convicted of assaulting that

8 person and knocking down that fence in the municipal court of Obrenovac,

9 do you not?

10 A. Well, if this is a document from our courts, I accept it. It's

11 probably true that I was convicted if it says so in the document. If

12 it's a document from our authorities, I accept it.

13 Q. And then when the case was appealed to the appellate court, the

14 second-instance court actually increased your sentence to a 6-month

15 sentence. Is that not correct?

16 A. I don't. Not at all.

17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender the document that's on

18 the screen, 0645-2787, 0645-2801. It's the first instance judgement.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is admitted as Exhibit P199.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, was the other person who was

22 involved in the altercation also charged? Do you know?

23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, reading the judgement, it does not seem

24 so, but I did not ask for the record of the other person, but there are

25 certain statements made in this document before you that I think it makes

Page 3632

1 clearing that the judges in this case rejected that theory put forward by

2 Mr. Zivkovic.

3 Q. So, sir, do you accept responsibility for the crime that you were

4 convicted for?

5 A. Well, I simply don't remember. I cannot tell you honestly very

6 precisely. I remember something happened, but whether I was convicted,

7 how I was sentenced, I don't remember.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this stage I would call up

9 0645-2690, 0645-2691. This is the criminal history printout, and I think

10 Mr. Cepic will have more familiarity than all of us with reading such

11 computer printouts. And if Mr. Cepic has no objection, then I will be

12 tendering this.

13 MR. CEPIC: It is not. If we're speaking about the previous

14 document, Your Honour --

15 MR. GROOME: No, it's not the previous document. It's not on the

16 screen yet.

17 MR. CEPIC: Can we see it, and later on I can raise maybe

18 objection, maybe no objection.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

20 microphone.

21 MR. CEPIC: Just for clarification, the previous document which

22 we've seen on our screens -- I'm sorry, which we have seen on our screens

23 is not a criminal record from our country. It doesn't look like any

24 criminal record from Serbia. Thank you.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just so the record's clear, what's on

Page 3633

1 the screen now is what has just been introduced in evidence, and it's the

2 actual judgement. Now what's appearing on the screen is the computer

3 printout of the record of convictions in the original. And if Mr. Cepic

4 has no objection, I would tender this into evidence.

5 MR. CEPIC: No objection. This is -- I think that is authentic

6 document from my country, but it is a different procedure than the

7 criminal procedure, this record of verdicts or whatever is from

8 completely different procedure than is the criminal procedure, but no

9 objections. It is authentic --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry. What are you saying? It's not a

11 criminal procedure?

12 MR. CEPIC: No.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: But what kind of procedure was it?

14 MR. CEPIC: We call that [Interpretation] misdemeanor procedure.

15 [In English] Misdemeanor.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay.

17 MR. CEPIC: It is -- if I may add some clarification, just for

18 traffic fines.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand. I understand the difference.

20 Yes.

21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just so the record is clear, what

22 Mr. --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

24 MR. GROOME: Sorry, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

Page 3634

1 MR. GROOME: Sorry, Your Honour.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: My colleagues are wondering what the point is of

6 this cross-examination. The substance of this witness's evidence is that

7 the 14th of June was Pentecost. Now, you're cross-examining him about

8 his record, whether misdemeanor or criminal, and of course that is

9 entirely proper in certain cases. It goes to credibility. But it's

10 either the 14th of June is Pentecost or not. His credibility as that

11 doesn't really matter.

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would take a very different view.

13 It's not whether the 14th is really Pentecost, and I would probably

14 concede that according to the church calendar it seems that it is.

15 What's really is important is whether this witness can be believed when

16 he says that on that day he was having a beer with Sredoje Lukic when it

17 is alleged by the Prosecution that he was some distance away perpetrating

18 a crime in Visegrad. So his credibility is important, and I believe with

19 the next few questions it will be even clearer why, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. I agree.

21 MR. GROOME:

22 Q. Sir, you did say that, just a few minutes ago, that you grazed

23 the fence, so it seems that you admit that you did drive your car into a

24 fence. You admit that, do you?

25 A. To the best of my recollection, there was a bend, and that's

Page 3635

1 where I grazed that fence. I cannot be quite sure now how serious it was

2 and what exactly it looked like.

3 Q. Is it also true that -- well, did you knock down some of the

4 poles on the fence?

5 A. I think I did. As far as I remember, I did. That's how it

6 started, but I can't remember every detail very clearly.

7 Q. And the fence that you knocked down was a fence that you -- there

8 was a dispute regarding that fence. Is that not true?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Do you admit that you struck someone during this exchange, that

11 you hit someone?

12 A. I can't remember whether I struck anyone. There was a push -- a

13 lot of pushing and shoving, but whether I really hit someone, I can't

14 remember.

15 Q. Do you accept the possibility that you may have hit someone?

16 A. Well, I can't remember. That man whose fence I grazed, he was

17 more aggressive. He was violent. He started that fight. I cannot

18 remember precisely.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, was he also charged with a misdemeanor or

20 any other offense, Witness? I'm asking whether the other man was also

21 charged with a misdemeanor or some other offense, or were you the only

22 one who was charged?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I can't remember at

24 all whether he was charged because when you have a fight with someone

25 over something, it's quite normal that you are not on good terms after

Page 3636

1 that, so I couldn't come up to him and ask him if he was charged or

2 convicted.

3 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that 0645-2701, 0645-2704 be brought to

4 the screen.

5 Q. Sir, I'm asking that what be brought to the screen now is the

6 record of interview that the -- the questions that the judge asked you

7 and the recording of your answers. Do you recall being questioned by a

8 judge with respect to this?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I really don't see any relevance for

11 this case. There is a judgement -- we did not object about the

12 judgement, but we -- if we open now, that case, I think that is not

13 subject for cross-examination here before this high-ranking Court.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It goes to credibility. I think this is what

15 Mr. Groome is saying, whether the witness is credible. So let us see

16 where Mr. Groome is going.

17 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we go to the bottom of page 3 in

18 the English translation. And I apologize, I'm not exactly sure where in

19 the B/C/S. I'm trying to get that information now. It's also at the

20 bottom of page 3 in the B/C/S version.

21 Q. So you've admitted here today at least to the possibility that

22 you struck someone, and you do admit that you did knock down some of that

23 fence. So I want to read you a portion of the statement that you gave to

24 the judge in this case.

25 "So it is not true that I hit Branislav or Petar with my fist,

Page 3637

1 and it is also not true that on that day I broke down several poles of

2 the fence by car."

3 So my question to you now is whether you now admit that the

4 statement that you originally made to the investigating judge was false.

5 A. It can't be false. I can't have given a false statement before a

6 judge.

7 Q. But here in court, you admit to knocking down at least the fence,

8 and here in the statement that you gave to the judge, you deny knocking

9 down the fence. So which is the truth and which is not?

10 A. What's true is probably that he was claiming that I had

11 deliberately knocked down the fence, and there was nothing deliberate in

12 what I did.

13 Q. Do you remember saying to the judge in this case that you denied

14 knocking down -- or I could quote again: "It is also not true that on

15 that day I broke down several poles of the fence by car."

16 A. Well, I don't remember. You have to believe me. I can't

17 remember.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender 0645-2701, the record of

19 interview, into evidence.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P200, Your Honours.

22 MR. GROOME:

23 Q. With respect to --

24 MR. GROOME: If I may have a moment, Your Honour.

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 3638

1 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the appeals judgement, the second

2 instance judgement be called up. It's 0645-2787, 0645-2801.

3 Q. And in this judgement, there are certain findings made with

4 respect to some of your -- with respect to your character and some of

5 your propensities.

6 While it's being called up, on page 4 of the judgement, it

7 states: "It is a common knowledge that accused Dragoljub and Veroljub,"

8 that being you, the second one, "are in bad relation themselves. It is a

9 common knowledge that the accused Dragoljub used to beat up his parents

10 and that the accused Veroljub still does the same."

11 Were the judges correct when they made a finding that you, in the

12 past, had beaten up your parents?

13 A. Absolutely not. It's a blatant lie.

14 Q. Similarly, on page 4 of the judgement, the judges credit the

15 evidence provided by a person by the name of Jelena Novakovic, that:

16 "The accused Veroljub beat up his wife approximately 16 years ago when

17 she was 8 months pregnant. Both accused have the reputation of having a

18 tendency to fight and argue."

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

20 MR. CEPIC: I'm going to raise now objection as I heard many

21 times from OTP. My learned friend Mr. Groome now quotes testimony of

22 other witnesses in that procedure. That was in previous situation, now,

23 again, related to that lady, which name is --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak in the mic, please.

25 MR. CEPIC: He's just quoting allegations of witness. And as I

Page 3639

1 understood, Mr. Groome now would like to raise the issue of character,

2 which is not the issue of credibility.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, what do you say to that?

4 MR. GROOME: I think character has an awful lot to the with

5 credibility, and I think someone -- court were to find that someone beat

6 their 8-month-pregnant wife it's something that the Chamber would be

7 entitled to consider with respect to credibility.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not true. And, Your Honour,

9 may I just say something. This person, Jelena, who gave that statement,

10 that's the daughter of the person whose fence I grazed. Her husband was

11 director, Mr. Markovic, and our courts at that time were so corrupt that

12 the powerful people who could pull the strings in a little town like ours

13 could swing the judgement in their favor. Everyone knows, who lives in

14 our parts, how things were at that time. In my country, I admit that we

15 had those wars. We had inflation. We had a lot of corruption, and we

16 still have some, although to a lesser degree, but it's really horrific.

17 I can spend months telling you about that. I have had no incident less

18 serious than this one, but that's how it --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir, I would not allow the objection raised by

20 Mr. Cepic because character is an aspect of credibility, but, Mr. Groome,

21 it seems to us that you have dealt with this issue sufficiently.

22 MR. GROOME: That's my last question. If I just could summarize

23 what I believe the witness's position, and then I'll move on,

24 Your Honour.

25 Q. So sir, it seems that what you're saying is that you deny

Page 3640

1 responsibility despite being convicted for this crime, and you assert

2 that you were convicted wrongly of this crime because the courts in

3 Obrenovac are corrupt, even in the year 2002. Is that a correct

4 statement of your position?

5 A. At that time and even now, the courts are quite corrupt,

6 especially when dealing with people in power who have money, because it's

7 a small town where I live, Obrenovac. Everybody knows everyone. Many,

8 many things were in play here.

9 Q. So it's your position that you were wrongfully convicted. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. I suppose so, because I told you how it started. It was a most

12 trivial incident that grew into a whole mountain by the end it was over.

13 MR. GROOME: At this time I would tender 0645-2787, that's the

14 second instance judgement against Mr. Zivkovic.

15 Q. I want to now move --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P201, Your Honours.

18 MR. GROOME:

19 Q. I want to move to the Feast of the Holy Trinity. You stated in

20 your interview with Mr. Caine that 90 per cent [Realtime transcript read

21 in error "October"] of the people celebrate the Feast of the Holy Trinity

22 in the village because it is the patron saint of the village. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. It's the religious holiday of our village, Pentecost.

25 MR. CEPIC: I apologize. I think that we have a wrong word in

Page 3641

1 the transcript, page 38, line 3, "90 October," but I think that

2 Mr. Groome did not mention October.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the date you gave, Mr. Groome?

4 MR. CEPIC: I don't believe I've given a date. I think I just

5 said Holy Trinity, Feast of Holy Trinity. I'm sorry. I said 90 per cent

6 of people. That's the number I gave.

7 Q. So my question to you, Mr. Zivkovic, is, is it true that 90 per

8 cent of the people in your village celebrate the Feast of Holy Trinity

9 because it is the patron saint of the village, it's a village feast day?

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I get too far, I neglected to

13 formally tender the criminal history printout, the court document that

14 Mr. Cepic recognized as 0645-2690, 0645-2691, and I would tender that at

15 this stage.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic.

17 MR. CEPIC: If it is a table which is made by OTP, I object. If

18 it's just the document issued by government of Serbia, we do not object.

19 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, it's the same information. It

20 can be checked -- I mean, there's nothing added. It's just placed in a

21 way that I think is more accessible to Your Honours. Can Mr. Cepic

22 please state specifically upon what basis he finds that that table's

23 objectionable?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the printout?

25 MR. GROOME: Well, there's the printout, Your Honour, that's a

Page 3642

1 computer printout that's somewhat cryptic. The table organises it into

2 about five columns and includes the information from the printout.

3 Again, I don't understand what the -- why it would be objectionable to

4 make it a little bit more organised and more easily read.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, it is not a printout. It is a document

7 which is made probably by the source of government of Serbia. I cannot

8 say that, but it is a document, as far as I remember, it is a table which

9 is made by OTP.

10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might summarize.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is made by OTP, but it is -- are you saying

12 it doesn't accurately reflect -- Mr. Cepic, I am asking you. Are you

13 saying it doesn't accurately reflect what was in the government document?

14 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I did not object related to the

15 judgement, and we already have admitted the judgement in the system, but

16 other procedures are acquitted.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: If there are acquittals there, then we will see

18 that, but Mr. Groome was referring to a charge that led to a conviction.

19 Are you saying that that is not so? The witness hasn't really denied it.

20 He has said that he was wrongly convicted.

21 MR. CEPIC: With your leave, the point is, we did not object the

22 content, but the source is a problem because that table made OTP, we

23 haven't got official letter from government of Serbia. Thank you.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit it.

Page 3643

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P202, Your Honours.

2 MR. GROOME:

3 Q. Sir, there's just one additional question I wanted to ask you

4 about the criminal conviction. I note from the criminal record papers

5 that we were provided, I note that one month before you gave your

6 statement in this case, an effort was made to expunge this conviction

7 from your record. And my question to you is, what, if any, relationship

8 in your mind exists between the attempt to expunge that conviction in

9 October 2007 and your giving of a statement in this case in November of

10 2007?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I think that needs to be broken

12 down. Who made the attempt to have it expunged?

13 MR. GROOME: There's simply an item in the printout, Your Honour,

14 saying that there was an expungement in October of 2007, and I'm just

15 inquiring from the witness --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think first you should find out from him if he

17 knows anything about that.

18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I will do that.

19 Q. Sir, are you aware that in October of 2007 there is an entry on

20 your record indicating an expungement of the criminal conviction that we

21 are now discussing?

22 A. I'm not aware of that, but I do know, in accordance with our

23 laws, three years after your sentence expires, you receive a letter that

24 something is erased or expunged. Moreover, I heard that this was done

25 automatically pursuant to the law because it is, as I understand it,

Page 3644

1 considered that a sentence has been served, and it can be expunged ex

2 officio after a certain lapse of time.

3 Q. Did you --

4 A. I personally don't know, and I don't recall ever appearing in

5 court in the last ten years.

6 Q. And you don't recall ever receiving a letter?

7 A. I may have received. I know that it is a usual practice of our

8 courts, after your sentence expires, three years from that date you

9 receive a letter. It's possible I may have received such a letter, but I

10 do not recall it as a fact.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could return to the Feast of the

12 Holy Trinity.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

14 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I would be glad to assist my learned

15 friends from OTP about that issue if there is any doubt exist because

16 according to criminal law of my country, under the Article 94 or 95, it

17 is possible in all judgements, you know, for the low-level crimes --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Groome did not press the question

19 after I suggested that --

20 MR. CEPIC: I apologise. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- preliminary questions need to be asked and

22 answered.

23 MR. GROOME:

24 Q. Sir, now, returning to the Holy Trinity feast, you stated in your

25 interview that earlier that day, you assisted your wife in cooking a

Page 3645

1 lunch on the morning of Trinity. Is that correct?

2 A. I always usually do so. I help her out, yes.

3 Q. And is the meal that celebrates the feast day, is that a mid-day

4 meal, a lunch?

5 A. Yes, approximately so, yes. It's lunch.

6 Q. And according to the custom, what do people eat in the evening?

7 Do they simply eat what's left over from the mid-day meal, or do they

8 cook another meal to celebrate Trinity in the evening?

9 A. Mostly, the leftovers from lunch. Whoever makes pot roast, there

10 are leftovers. In my case, this was so. Whoever wanted to have some

11 leftovers for dinner did so.

12 Q. And would it be your understanding that that would be the custom

13 in the village; the similar practice would have been followed by other

14 families in Krtinska?

15 A. In which sense do you mean?

16 Q. That everyone would celebrate with a large meal mid-day and in

17 the evening simply eats whatever is -- remains.

18 A. I don't know about other households. There are people who, if

19 they had a heavy lunch, they skip dinner, and people do not visit each

20 other customarily on that day. Everybody celebrates it at their own

21 home.

22 Q. So am I right in thinking that the big shopping day for the

23 preparations for the meal would be the Saturday or Friday before the

24 Sunday?

25 A. What shopping do you mean?

Page 3646

1 Q. When people buy the food to prepare for the meal. Am I correct

2 in believing that it would be done on the Saturday or the Friday before

3 the feast day, which is on the Sunday?

4 A. That depends on the household.

5 Q. Now, you indicated in your interview and you've just indicated

6 now, that it is a time for family. And in your interview at page 27,

7 beginning at line 18, you stated: "When it was lunchtime, then mainly

8 household members were there again because, as I am saying, everyone in

9 the village celebrates and thus it is not right to go to someone else's

10 house, et cetera."

11 Do you recall making that statement to Mr. Caine?

12 A. Well, some 90 per cent of the people in my village do so. I

13 don't want to say 100 per cent because there may be people living there

14 who had moved in recently and have not acquired the customs, but 90 per

15 cent of the village do celebrate Holy Trinity as the village feast day.

16 Q. And you also indicated in your interview that no one works on

17 this day. Reading again from the transcript of your interview: "Well,

18 when we woke up in the morning, it is the day when no one works in the

19 village, so no one is doing anything. It is not good to work on that day

20 because the village celebrates its feast."

21 Later on that page, you say: "Absolutely no one works anything,

22 except feed the livestock if you have any."

23 So is it your testimony that no one works on this feast day in

24 the village?

25 A. For you to fully understand me, I must say this. I described the

Page 3647

1 situation in my village. Whoever celebrates this do that at home, but

2 people who work in shifts or in the state administration or in the power

3 plant, this is not a holiday, a bank holiday, so that such people have to

4 work; but what I meant by not working, I mean they are not working the

5 land or anything in their -- in their yards. If they have livestock,

6 they have to feed it. As I stated, this is not a bank holiday, a public

7 holiday. People who work in such services have to work on that day.

8 Q. But it seems that you indicated that at least the people in

9 Krtinska who were celebrating this as their village feast day, they did

10 not go to work. Is that correct?

11 A. I reiterate, people who do not work in companies, if it happened

12 that I had to work my shift, I would have come home after the shift and

13 celebrated Holy Trinity. Other people usually rest on weekends, and the

14 Holy Trinity always falls on a weekend.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, it's time for the break. How much

16 longer will you be?

17 MR. GROOME: It's hard to approximate, Your Honour, but there are

18 still a fair few questions that I wish to ask.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the question of time for cross-examination

20 will arise. The court deputy will inform me how long you have been, and

21 we'll decide how much longer you -- oh, you have taken 50 minutes.

22 Another 15 minutes, another 15, 20 minutes. We'll adjourn.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.

Page 3651

1 cooperation in that regard.

2 Sir, you also said in your interview with Mr. Caine that during

3 the period of great inflation that took over the former Yugoslavia that

4 the store that is the subject of your testimony had practically nothing

5 on its shelves. Do you remember saying that? Yes or no.

6 A. I said that when inflation started, not immediately but a bit

7 later, two or three years later, this store was closed. Now we have a

8 different privately owned store, and the one that I discussed used to be

9 publicly owned.

10 Q. Let me read from your interview, and you tell me whether you said

11 this. This is at page 32, line 27: "No, the store does not operate

12 anymore. It does not operate for a long time. When there was inflation,

13 from the moment of the inflation on, it was operating during the

14 inflation, and the situation was becoming worse and worse, so that the

15 shelves were practically empty."

16 Do you remember saying that to Mr. Caine? Yes or no, please.

17 A. Yes, but later. Inflation was not felt immediately, but its

18 effects were felt later, and this is how I tried to explain it.

19 Q. Well, sir, in doing some research after you had said that, it

20 seems that in June of 1992, that very month, the record of inflation had

21 been broken, and I have a newspaper article I could call up, but to save

22 time, let me read you the headline of the newspaper article and see if

23 you will not agree with me.

24 It's from Borba, and the head of the article, it's dated the 1st

25 of July --

Page 3652

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

2 MR. CEPIC: I apologize, but I think that this witness is not

3 expert for economic issues.

4 MR. GROOME: I'm not asking him about --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, is he being cross-examined as to

6 suggest that expertise is required?

7 MR. CEPIC: My learned friend is trying to ask him some economic

8 parameters from news articles, so I'm a little bit confused about that,

9 Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let me hear the questions first, and then

11 I'll determine whether they're questions for an expert or just somebody

12 with ordinary common sense.

13 MR. GROOME:

14 Q. So sir, the title of this article from the 1st of July in Borba

15 is: "The June triple-digit inflation of 102.3 per cent ingloriously

16 broke the record as the highest in the history of Yugoslavia." My

17 question to you is, do you recall that in June 1992 there was an

18 extremely high rate of inflation in Yugoslavia?

19 A. Inflation did not peak then. Hyperinflation went and stood at a

20 couple of thousand of per cent, not just a couple of hundred per cent.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, the witness even knows about

22 hyperinflation.

23 MR. CEPIC: I'm a little bit confused, Your Honour.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. So sir, is it your evidence that this grocery store owner had his

Page 3653

1 shop open on a day, a holiday, in which you have said that most people in

2 the village did not work, that everyone was home with their families,

3 that people had their main meal of the day at lunchtime, and that in the

4 evening many people ate leftovers, and that if we accept that there was

5 inflation during this period, there may have been very little on his

6 shelves to sell. Is it still your testimony that that shop was open on

7 the Feast of the Holy Trinity in 1992? Yes or no.

8 A. You asked me several questions. I cannot answer whether yes

9 or --

10 Q. My question simply is, was -- given all the factors that I have

11 mentioned to you, is it your evidence that that shop was open on the 14th

12 of June, 1992, the Feast of the Holy Trinity, which was celebrated in

13 Krtinska as the village feast day? Was the shop open or closed that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, I put it to you that while the argument you described may

16 have taken place at some point in time, that it was impossible for it to

17 have taken place on the 14th of June because I believe that grocery store

18 was not open. How do you respond to my assertion to you?

19 A. I state that the store was open and that that incident took place

20 on that day. My memory serves me well.

21 Q. If your memory --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, in the transcript at 50, line 8,

23 your question was: "Was the shop open or closed that day?" And the

24 answer is yes. We need to know, what is he answering affirmatively to?

25 MR. GROOME: I'll clarify.

Page 3654

1 Q. Is it correct that your evidence is that that shop was open on

2 that day? Is that your evidence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, I want to read you a portion of your interview and ask you

5 whether it is accurate. The portion is from page 30, beginning at line

6 6, and it was in response to a question from Phil Caine regarding how you

7 were so certain it was 1992.

8 You said: "Well, I know because it was -- because it was the

9 first. It was the first. I remember because of the war, when the war

10 broke out. So after the war, it was maybe two months after the war. It

11 was the first post-war Trinity, in fact, in the beginning of the war."

12 Is this the information that you provided Mr. Caine?

13 A. Yes, this was the first Holy Trinity after the war broke out.

14 Q. So you are certain that this event took place on the first June

15 14th, approximately two months after the start of the war, correct?

16 A. Yes, this happened on the 14th of June.

17 Q. So you mark this day by its relationship to the start of the war,

18 correct?

19 A. Well, immediately after the break-out of the war it happened,

20 this is the first Holy Trinity. Everybody remembered that day because

21 the war had broken out not a long time ago prior to that, and this was

22 the first Holy Trinity that we celebrated after the breakout of the war.

23 Q. Well, sir, many people would agree that the war began with the

24 conflict that occurred in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991, when Serb

25 Croats attacked Croatian police forces, beginning a very long period of

Page 3655

1 conflict. A very violent war occurred throughout the summer of 1991 and

2 into the fall of 1991. The siege of Vukovar took place between August

3 1991 and November 1991, during which nearly the entire city was destroyed

4 and thousands killed. Immediately following the fall of Vukovar was the

5 well-publicized executions of captives in Ovcara. The war broke out in

6 the late summer or spring of 1991.

7 Isn't that when the war broke out, sir?

8 A. Well, in our minds, the real war started in Bosnia. That was the

9 most serious war. There had been a war, if you wish, in Slovenia, too

10 but that was nothing much. We think of the real war as the one in

11 Bosnia.

12 Q. So, sir, you living in Belgrade did not consider the separation

13 of Croatia from Yugoslavia and the siege of Vukovar a war?

14 A. Well, at that time, I did not believe they would really separate.

15 As far as I remember, the army was already deployed there, and I thought

16 it wouldn't happen. The real war started in Bosnia.

17 Q. Sir, the first Holy Trinity two months after the start of the war

18 would have been in June of 1991. Isn't that correct?

19 A. No, no. It was on the 14th of June, 1992, because I'm telling

20 you, it was after the war broke out in Bosnia. We'll always remember

21 that Pentecost.

22 Q. I want to read your characterization of the argument that you

23 witnessed between Sredoje Lukic and the shopkeeper. This is page 42,

24 beginning at line 17. Mr. Caine asked you: "When it came to the verbal

25 conflict or whatever, was it something strong, was there screaming a bit,

Page 3656

1 or was it --"

2 And then you say: "Well, it was not. It was a little argument

3 about empties, something like, Milojko will return it to you. Do you not

4 know me. Well, Vesko will confirm that I am Milojko's guest, and so.

5 The salesman was really a little bit crueler as a salesman. I mean, take

6 me for example. If I was a salesman and I know an inhabitant having

7 guests, I would tolerate that, but it was nothing serious. They were

8 just verbally ..." And then you finish your answer.

9 Am I correct in understanding that it was really a very minor

10 incident, this dispute that Sredoje Lukic had with the store owner about

11 the deposits on a crate of beer bottles, correct?

12 A. Yes. It was more like persuasion, Why aren't you letting me do

13 this, and so on.

14 Q. And after this happened, there was no real reason to ever discuss

15 this again between you and Sredoje Lukic, was there?

16 A. Well, yes. When we got out, we continued that talk. We did

17 discuss it.

18 Q. But after that night was behind you, in the 15 years that have

19 elapsed, up until the time Mr. Cepic asked you about this, had you ever

20 discussed this dispute with Sredoje Lukic again?

21 A. Well, I can't remember whether I talked about it with him, but

22 with my own friends, whenever we celebrated the Pentecost for the next

23 two or three years, we remembered it. On that day, there is usually no

24 incidents. Everybody is in a good mood and everybody's getting along

25 well, and that day was memorable because of that incident.

Page 3657

1 Q. So it's your evidence that in the years since then, you have

2 talked about it with people who weren't there about this short verbal

3 dispute about a deposit over empty beer bottles. Is that your evidence?

4 A. No. I'm saying that with the friends with whom I had been

5 standing together then, the friends I usually meet at those celebrations,

6 I discussed it later, over the next two or three years. I can't talk

7 about the incident with someone who did not see it.

8 Q. Sir, I want to change the topic now. You know that

9 Sredoje Lukic was held by some Muslims at the dam in Visegrad. He was

10 held captive. You know about that event, don't you?

11 A. Well, I saw it in the evening news bulletin on Radio Television

12 Serbia. They showed it in the prime-time news bulletin.

13 Q. And when you saw the news bulletin, it actually showed

14 Sredoje Lukic after he was released from captivity, correct?

15 A. No, no. I saw it on the news, just that they had been arrested.

16 It was a brief piece of news.

17 Q. I'm going to show you a news item and see if you recognize this.

18 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that V000-1286 be played, and we'll be

19 playing it on the Sanction system, control from the Prosecutor's desk.

20 Your Honour, we were unable to synchronize the transcript, so I

21 have hard copies here. I'd ask that they be passed out before we play

22 it.

23 Q. Sir, there'll be a film played on one of the screens before you,

24 I believe the one on the left.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 3658

1 MR. GROOME:

2 Q. Who's back is that that we saw just before this man here?

3 A. Well, I can't see properly. I didn't see the face. Will you

4 rewind it so I can look more carefully?

5 MR. GROOME: [Previous translation continues] ...

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "They wanted to slaughter us."

8 MR. GROOME: Sorry. We're rewinding it now. Did you see

9 Sredoje Lukic on this tape?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did see him.

11 MR. GROOME:

12 Q. Is this not the back of Sredoje Lukic?

13 A. Yes, that's the back of Sredoje Lukic.

14 Q. Now, sir, in your interview with Mr. Caine, you said that there

15 were scars from where cigarettes had been put out on his back. Are we

16 able to see those scars here?

17 A. I don't know if they can be seen here. I can't see on this

18 screen, but I know that Sredoje Lukic had told me he had been mistreated,

19 beaten, they had shaved their hair, extinguished cigarettes on their

20 skin. I don't know about this extinguishing of cigarettes, whether they

21 did it only to him or to everyone. That's the story he told me.

22 Q. But he told you that they put out cigarettes on his skin.

23 A. No. He said in the plural, Up there when they had arrested us,

24 they mistreated us, they beat us, they shaved our heads, they beat us,

25 they put out cigarettes on us. He was talking in the plural. I don't

Page 3659

1 know who he was referring to specifically.

2 Q. If I could draw your attention once again to the screen, and

3 we'll continue playing the video.

4 [Videotape played]

5 MR. GROOME:

6 Q. Is that Sredoje Lukic that we're looking at there now?

7 A. On the right is Sredoje Lukic.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender that exhibit V000-1286.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It is admitted as Exhibit P203, Your Honours.

11 MR. GROOME:

12 Q. Sir, the last few questions I have for you have to deal with how

13 you came to be a witness in this case, and I would like to read you a

14 portion of your interview and ask you whether it is still accurate. And

15 this is at page 50, line -- beginning at line 27.

16 Mr. Caine asked you: "Can you explain to us how come that you

17 are giving this statement?"

18 And you state: "Well, one day he came, and a lawyer came, and

19 this Milojko Popadic came, because when he was coming, he remembered the

20 incident. Well, I don't know how he got in touch with Milojko, what kind

21 of contacts they had. I don't know that, but he came that day. One day

22 he and Milojko and the lawyer came."

23 My question to you is, when you say "he remembered the incident,"

24 you were referring to Milojko Popadic as the one who remembered what

25 happened on Holy Trinity in 1992; is that correct?

Page 3660

1 A. Milojko Popadic came together with the lawyer, Mr. Djuro Cepic,

2 to visit me. And then Milojko asked me if I remembered that incident on

3 that Holy Trinity, and I asked him, Which Holy Trinity, there have been

4 many. And then he recalled to me the day, the first Holy Trinity after

5 the war and the incident with Milan Kozica in the shop, and that was it.

6 That was my first contact with Mr. Cepic.

7 Q. So it was Milojko Popadic who 15 years after the event reminded

8 you of what happened on this Holy Trinity, what you say is the first Holy

9 Trinity after the war. Is that correct?

10 A. No, it's not that he reminded me. I remembered that incident

11 because I remembered it was the first Holy Trinity after the war. I

12 looked up the church calendar for that year, and I looked up the date. I

13 know that Holy Trinity is always on a Sunday, but it can be on different

14 dates.

15 Q. Now, this first conversation that you had about this event, you

16 had it with Mr. Cepic, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And present during that interview, that first conversation you

19 had about this, was Milojko Popadic, correct?

20 A. No. Milojko just asked me what I described to you a moment ago,

21 and then Mr. Cepic took me towards his car. He had come by car, and then

22 we talked a little while Milojko was looking at some cars. Since my job

23 is to paint cars and repair the body of cars, he was looking at some cars

24 in my shop.

25 Q. Sir, I'm going to play you the actual audiotape of the interview.

Page 3661

1 MR. GROOME: And it's T001-1686, and it's marked as clip 2.

2 Q. I'm going to ask you to listen to it.

3 MR. GROOME: Are we ready to play it?

4 Q. So it's going to be played now for you, sir.

5 [Audiotape played]

6 PC: "So did you actually take Mr. Cepic to the shop to show

7 him?"

8 VZ: "Yes, because it was close to my place, and Mr. Cepic asked

9 if could we go and see the shop, and I said, yes, of course, because it's

10 very close by."

11 PC: "Okay, and did Mr. Popadic go with you?"

12 VZ: "Yes, he was present too."

13 PC: "Okay. And then what -- presumably you described the events

14 of that day when Sredoje had had the conflicts with the shopkeeper?"

15 VZ: "Yes."

16 PC: "Okay. And Mr. Popadic was there all the time throughout

17 those discussions?"

18 VZ: [No interpretation]

19 [End of audiotape]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, I saw you, you but I wanted to wait

21 until this was concluded.

22 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour, I didn't want to disturb. Some

23 portions of this transcript does not represent all of the record, as far

24 as we know it, in B/C/S and also in English.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, if it does so in any material particular,

Page 3662

1 you can bring it to our attention. Mr. Groome.

2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I would also note -- well, for

3 the record, let me just ask a couple of questions.

4 Q. Sir, is that -- is that an accurate recording of what you said

5 during the interview with Phil Caine?

6 A. Well, I said that Mr. Popadic was present.

7 Q. Sir, I'm not asking for a fuller explanation. Mr. Cepic can ask

8 you that. I'm just asking, what you heard here on tape, did you

9 recognize your voice? Were those your words that we heard on the tape?

10 A. Yes, I recognized my words.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender T001-1686, clip 2, into

12 evidence, recognising that maybe over the course of today I will work

13 with Mr. Cepic to resolve whatever he sees as an inaccuracy, and

14 hopefully we can resolve that. If not, then I would ask that the tape be

15 submitted to CLSS, and I will be bound by their determination of what is

16 said.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

18 MR. CEPIC: Just to continue where my learned friend stopped, I

19 propose that this exhibit would be marked for identification until we

20 clarify situation related to those mistakes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour. I'd agree with that with respect to

23 the translation, but the witness has said, Those are my words, and it's

24 really his words that are really what's important. The translation is

25 something that can be corrected, but I'd hate to let this witness leave

Page 3663

1 without having resolved that this is in evidence.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, the witness did say that those were

3 his words.

4 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we do not object that the witness gave

5 interview. We do not object that those words are his words, but the

6 problem is in translation. As Mr. Groome said, we had very bad

7 translation in Belgrade during that interview, so that's the problem, and

8 a couple times we changed a couple -- we tried to solve that situation.

9 And finally on the first day, we received additional translation,

10 actually, the new translation of that interview, and during the week, we

11 checked that and found quite a number of mistakes, and yesterday

12 afternoon we sent to OTP all those mistakes which we found.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Mr. Ivetic, you wish to wade in?

14 MR. IVETIC: Just because I was following the -- it appears the

15 English is not even correct, so it's not a matter of translation. It's

16 just a matter of a bad transcript, so I think we should probably resubmit

17 it or somehow get a transcript, because as it stands now, we don't have a

18 translation of the man's words into a language that non-B/C/S speakers

19 can appreciate.

20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I might be able to shorten

21 this. I will agree that only the tape is introduced at this stage, and I

22 will work over the next few days to have a transcript that is agreeable

23 or is agreed by all the parties as an accurate transcript of the tape.

24 But it seems to me that voice, that the recording itself has been

25 authenticated. That really must come into evidence. It's really a

Page 3675

1 in Visegrad the war had started, the living conditions were inadequate,

2 the children couldn't go to school, there was a shortage of food together

3 with all the other dire circumstances.

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Lukic. I have no

5 further questions for you.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Lukic. My name is Dermot Groome, and I'll

9 be asking you a few questions on behalf of the Prosecution. I'd first

10 like to begin by asking you, can you tell us, your last name is Lukic.

11 How precisely are you related to Sredoje Lukic?

12 A. My family name is Lukic. That's correct. Sredoje is my

13 husband's brother, so he's my brother-in-law.

14 Q. And what is your husband's name?

15 A. Slavko Lukic.

16 Q. What other siblings are there aside from Sredoje Lukic and

17 Slavko Lukic?

18 A. They have another brother, Rade Lukic, and two sisters, Vojka and

19 Savka.

20 Q. Now, is it true that prior to the war, you would make the trip to

21 Visegrad to visit Sredoje Lukic and his family at his family home? Is

22 that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And according to your interview, you did that approximately two

25 ore three times a year. Is that correct?

Page 3676

1 A. Approximately, yes.

2 Q. And the name of the neighborhood that he lived in Visegrad is

3 Seganje, S-e-g-a-n-j-e, correct?

4 A. It's Seganje, that's correct.

5 Q. He was a policeman in Visegrad, was he not?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And on the occasions that you went to see him there, did it

8 appear that he was well-liked by his neighbors and the people of

9 Visegrad?

10 A. He was liked. They liked him, yes.

11 Q. Did you get the sense that he was well known in Visegrad?

12 A. Since he was working as a policeman, it's most probable that he

13 was well known. Yes, he was well known.

14 Q. What would you estimate his height to be?

15 A. What would I estimate his height? Well, he's as tall as my

16 husband. He's tall, strapping, 1 metre and 80 centimetres,

17 approximately. I never really paid that much attention.

18 Q. And what would you say he weighed in 1992?

19 A. What he weighed in 1992? I can tell you approximately between 80

20 and 90 kilograms.

21 Q. And how did he wear his hair in the summer of 1992?

22 A. Short, cropped.

23 Q. Did you work outside the home?

24 A. How do you mean? I did not understand the question.

25 Q. In addition to being the mother of your children and taking care

Page 3677

1 of the household, did you ever engage in any other work outside the home?

2 A. Well, I was on maternity leave during that period. After

3 maternity leave, I went back to employment. I was employed, yes.

4 Q. And what was your employment?

5 A. Do you ask me where I work?

6 Q. I'm more interested, in 1992, are you working at the same

7 place --

8 A. In 1992, I did not work. I was on maternity leave. I was at

9 home with the baby.

10 Q. Where did you work prior to going on maternity leave?

11 A. I worked in Lipov Lad in the Boulevard of Revolution. First I

12 was on sick leave during my pregnancy and then went on maternity leave

13 after giving birth. This means I was missing from work for one month --

14 one year and six months.

15 Q. What kind of work did you do? I'm trying to get at what type of

16 work did you engage in?

17 A. I work in the catering and hospitality industry. That's my

18 trade.

19 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to the birth of your child in

20 1992. What is the child's name?

21 A. Dragana Lukic. That's the name of my child.

22 Q. And I imagine that you and your husband took photographs as all

23 proud parents do at the time of a birth, and you'd be able to produce

24 them to the Court if required?

25 A. I did not bring any photos, but if necessary, I can supply at a

Page 3678

1 later date. I can give it -- give them to the lawyer, but I don't have

2 them with me.

3 Q. Now, is it your evidence that Sredoje Lukic came to visit you the

4 day after you arrived home after giving birth to your child in June of

5 1992? Is that correct?

6 A. Sredoje Lukic visited on the 27th of June, and I was discharged

7 from hospital on the 26th of June. So the following day from my

8 discharge from hospital, Sredoje and his family visited me at my home.

9 Q. And what time that day did they arrive at your home?

10 A. Around mid-day, noon.

11 Q. And approximately how long did they stay?

12 A. Some four hours.

13 Q. I'd also imagine that in the four hours that they were there,

14 pictures were also taken of Sredoje Lukic holding his new niece. Would

15 you be able to provide us with photographs taken on the 27th showing

16 Sredoje Lukic holding this newborn?

17 A. Unfortunately, we did not take any photographs. We did not have

18 a camera at the time, so we did not take any pictures.

19 Q. So you do not have a picture of Sredoje Lukic holding the baby

20 shortly after birth on the 27th of June, 1992?

21 A. No, I don't have such a picture.

22 Q. According to your account, both your husband Slavko Lukic and

23 Sredoje's wife Vidjenka Lukic were present during this visit and could

24 also speak to it. Do you know why your husband is not coming to testify

25 about this event?

Page 3679

1 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After which visit, you mean?

3 MR. CEPIC: This question is calling for speculation.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Inaudible.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, Mr. Groome.

6 MR. GROOME: Can I ask her, Your Honour, if she knows why her

7 husband -- I mean, presumably they discuss --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't think it's a proper question for her

9 at all.

10 MR. GROOME: Okay. I'll move on, Your Honour.

11 Q. You know that Sredoje Lukic was held by some Muslims -- held in

12 captivity in Visegrad, correct?

13 A. Given that I had a small child and was pregnant with another, of

14 course I heard and I saw on TV that he had been captured.

15 Q. And you said in your interview that he visited you and your

16 family shortly after his release when he was looking for a job in

17 Belgrade. Is that correct?

18 A. I did not understand the question well.

19 Q. In your interview, you said to the investigator that shortly

20 after he was released from captivity, he came to Belgrade to look for a

21 job and that he visited with you and your family. Is that not correct?

22 A. He visited me after I had been discharged --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. Mr. Cepic.

24 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry. Could we have the reference for this

25 question, please?

Page 3680

1 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. It's page 6, beginning at line 30.

2 Q. Mrs. Lukic, I'm talking about before you had the baby but after

3 the period between the time Sredoje Lukic was released from captivity in

4 Visegrad but prior to when you had Dragana. Did Sredoje Lukic come and

5 visit you during that period?

6 A. I think he did once. I don't remember the exact date or time.

7 Q. And the purpose of coming to Belgrade was he was looking to get a

8 job in Belgrade with the police. Is that not correct?

9 A. Well, he was trying to leave Visegrad, of course. I told you

10 earlier he was looking for a way to leave Visegrad because of the

11 situation that prevailed there and because of his children. He couldn't

12 keep his children in school there. He couldn't put any food on the

13 table.

14 Q. But his intention was to attempt to get a job through a relative

15 who was working in the police in Belgrade. Is that not correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes. He was trying through a relative of theirs whose name

17 is Sreten Lukic who was already working in the SUP.

18 Q. And this person, Sreten Lukic, had a high-ranking position in the

19 Ministry of the Interior. Is that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. And this is the same Sreten Lukic that is currently in custody

22 here in The Hague. Is that not correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, when you saw Sredoje Lukic after he had been released from

25 captivity, did he describe the treatment that he was subjected to?

Page 3681

1 A. No, he did not discuss these things with me or before me or

2 before my children and certainly not before his own children. He talked

3 to my husband, though, and I don't know what exactly they talked about.

4 Q. Did you ever observe any of the injuries he sustained when he was

5 held in captivity?

6 A. No. No, he didn't show me.

7 Q. Now, is it your understanding that after Sredoje Lukic was

8 released from captivity, he returned to work as a police officer in

9 Visegrad?

10 A. Yes. He returned to work there as a policeman in Visegrad. His

11 family was away. He went back to Visegrad to work, but he regularly

12 visited with his family in Belgrade, and in the meantime he was looking

13 for a job as well.

14 Q. Now, also according to your interview, you also know Milan Lukic.

15 Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in fact, he attended your wedding. Is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. What would you say his height is?

20 A. His may be a little less tall than Sredoje.

21 Q. And what would you say his weight was back in 1992?

22 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. There's been no foundation

23 that she saw him in 1992.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. Can I ask you, does --

Page 3682

1 A. Well, I can answer. He was a bit thinner, maybe 75 to 80 kilos.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Saying all this roughly because I

4 didn't weigh them.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you didn't weigh him. It's time for the

6 break.

7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We break for half an hour. Just before the

9 break, Mr. Cepic, you had undertaken to fetch the original of a document.

10 MR. CEPIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Okay.

12 MR. CEPIC: That's correct.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: And half an hour will be enough?

14 MR. CEPIC: Half an hour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, half an hour. Yes.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.

19 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mrs. Lukic, we were talking about Milan Lukic just when we took

21 the break. The last question I have from -- with respect to Milan Lukic

22 is that during the month of June 1992, you don't ever recall seeing him

23 in Belgrade, do you?

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, foundation, speculation. This is not

25 proper testimony for this witness. It's not raised in direct.

Page 3683

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

2 MR. GROOME: I believe it is a proper question. She's a relative

3 of his. I'm just asking a simple question of whether she saw him in the

4 month of June 1992.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'll allow it.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not see him.

7 MR. GROOME:

8 Q. I have read in your interview how you described becoming involved

9 as a witness in this case. Can I conclude that your husband first spoke

10 to you about this, or maybe -- can you tell us how you first became

11 involved as a witness in this case?

12 A. Lawyer Cepic contacted me sometime around the new year, and

13 Sredoje remembered the date when I gave birth and that the day after I

14 left the hospital, he visited me. He told that to his lawyer, and that's

15 how I established contact with his lawyer. However, since I was unable

16 to find the letter of discharge - I had misplaced it - I couldn't

17 remember whether it was the 25th or the 26th of June when I left the

18 hospital. I found the letter of discharge later, and my husband gave it

19 to the lawyer.

20 Q. Did you ever discuss with your husband the possibility of

21 testifying on behalf of his brother?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. So prior to Mr. Cepic contacting you, you had no idea about the

24 important testimony that you might be able to provide?

25 A. No. I did not think about that.

Page 3684

1 Q. And as you've stated here, it was Sredoje Lukic who remembered

2 the exact date of the birth of Dragana, not you remembering that Sredoje

3 was accused of a crime in proximity to the birth of Dragana. Is that

4 correct?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a little confusing.

6 MR. GROOME: I recognize that, Your Honour. Let me break it up.

7 I apologize.

8 Q. I apologize for giving you such a confusing question. Let me try

9 to break it down. As you've said here, it was Sredoje who first realized

10 that -- or remembered the exact date that Dragana was born?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. So your best recollection of when Mr. Cepic contacted you and

13 told him -- and you told him that Sredoje was visiting you shortly after

14 the birth of your child was around last new year. Is that correct?

15 A. It was towards the end of 2007, the beginning of 2008, around the

16 new year.

17 Q. Okay. Are the -- is the -- are the earphones okay? You seem to

18 be maybe having -- experiencing some discomfort when I speak. Are they

19 too loud? We can get you some assistance with that.

20 A. It's fine.

21 Q. Now, after the new year, on 8th of January, 2008, to be precise,

22 Mr. Cepic filed what is referred to here as alibi notice where he is

23 required to provide information about where Sredoje Lukic says that he

24 was and the witnesses who will testify on his behalf. In that filing,

25 after the time you said you spoke with Mr. Cepic --

Page 3685

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I see Mr. Cepic on his feet.

2 MR. CEPIC: Does Mr. Groome raise his final arguments or what.

3 This witness is not able to --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Cepic is inaudible. Terribly sorry.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, you're not being heard. You have to

6 speak into the mic.

7 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think that Mr. Groome now

8 did not raise his final arguments because I think that this witness

9 cannot provide us information related to the Defence motions or similar

10 issues.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We haven't yet heard the question. What is the

12 question, Mr. Groome?

13 MR. GROOME:

14 Q. I won't repeat the whole explanation, but on the 8th [Realtime

15 transcript read in error "28th"] of January, 2008, when Mr. Cepic, as

16 required by the rules, provided the names of the people who would be able

17 to testify about Sredoje Lukic's whereabouts during the time he was

18 alleged to have committed the crime, you were not put forward as a

19 witness. You were only put forward as a witness in June of 2008. Does

20 that change your recollection as to when you spoke to Mr. Cepic about

21 this evidence that you had?

22 A. I told you that I was unable to find the letter of discharge

23 immediately, so I told Mr. Cepic that until I find the letter of

24 discharge I cannot be sure. I found the letter of discharge only in

25 April. I had mislaid it in some books where you normally don't keep

Page 3686

1 documents, but that's where I put it, apparently.

2 Q. Now, the indictment against Sredoje Lukic was made public in

3 October of the year 2000, and he was a fugitive for about five years

4 until he turned himself in in September of 2005. Did you see him during

5 that period of time?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know if your husband was in communication with him during

8 that time?

9 A. I don't think so.

10 Q. Do you know where he was staying during that period of time?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. But when the case was made public against him, you recognized

13 that Sredoje Lukic, the relative of yours, was -- had been indicted for

14 some serious crimes committed in Visegrad in June of 1992, were you not?

15 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you please repeat it?

16 Q. Once the indictment became public and there were public arrest

17 warrants issued for Sredoje Lukic, it was publicized in the media, you

18 recognized that the Sredoje Lukic who had been indicted was the

19 Sredoje Lukic who was your husband's brother. Is that not correct?

20 A. Of course he's my husband's brother.

21 Q. But you were aware once the indictment became public that your

22 husband's brother was wanted, was a fugitive, with respect to some

23 serious crimes that occurred in Visegrad in June of 1992, were you not?

24 A. Yes, I knew he was on the run, but I didn't know where he was.

25 Q. And did you and your husband ever discuss the crimes with which

Page 3687

1 Sredoje Lukic had been charged?

2 A. I'm not aware of any crimes that he may have committed. I didn't

3 see that, so I couldn't talk about it.

4 Q. But there was substantial media coverage about this case and

5 about the crimes underlying this case. Were you not exposed to any of

6 that media coverage during this time period?

7 A. Sir, I did listen to all the talk that was going on, and there

8 was a lot of talk, but I didn't see anything for myself and therefore

9 couldn't talk about it.

10 Q. Did it never occur to you prior to Mr. Cepic calling that the two

11 most serious acts that Sredoje was charged with occurred in the same

12 month as the birth of your own daughter? Did that never occur to you?

13 A. I don't even know when these acts were committed. I never gave

14 it any thought. All I know is that he visited the day after my second

15 child was born, and when these crimes were committed, I don't know. I

16 was not interested. You have to believe that I don't even know what

17 happened on that 27th. All I know is that he called on me. He came with

18 his wife and his children.

19 Q. Mrs. Lukic, is it your testimony that you had no interest in the

20 fact that your husband's brother had been indicted by an international

21 criminal tribunal for serious crimes? Is that your evidence, that you

22 had no interest in that?

23 A. I don't know in which way you mean it, I had no interest.

24 Q. You testified --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cepic.

Page 3688

1 MR. CEPIC: I just want to intervene. In transcript, page 84,

2 line 3, "All I know is that he called on me." But witness said [B/C/S

3 spoken]. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which is what?

5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said, Mr. Cepic quotes, "He was at

6 my place." Interpreter's note, it's -- Mr. Cepic misunderstands the

7 meaning of the expression "call on someone."

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That's virtually the same thing in

9 English.

10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: "He was at my place" is virtually the same thing

12 as "he called on me," in English.

13 MR. GROOME:

14 Q. Mrs. Lukic, at page 83, line 25, the record records you as

15 saying, "I was not interested." My question to you is, is that really a

16 true statement, that you had no interest in the fact that your husband's

17 brother had been indicted for serious crimes by an international criminal

18 tribunal?

19 A. You know what? It's not that I had no interest. Of course I had

20 some interest, but I had one very small child, and I was pregnant with

21 another, and after that I had a third child, and I was so busy with my

22 children that I had no time to deal with other things, really.

23 Q. Did you and your husband ever, over the dinner table or after the

24 children had gone to bed, ever discuss that his brother had been charged

25 by an international tribunal and there was an outstanding arrest warrant?

Page 3689

1 A. Well, yes.

2 Q. And in those discussions, did it never -- was it never discussed

3 what the substance of the allegations were against Sredoje Lukic?

4 A. I heard he was indicted and charged with certain crimes, but

5 again, I had not that much interest in it, not enough to go into things

6 like whether it was on that date or on a different date. I had too many

7 of my problems to go into the details of what he's supposed to have done

8 or if he had done it at all.

9 Q. Mrs. Lukic, I appreciate that you may be in a difficult position,

10 but I put it to you that the reason that you never came forward with this

11 information prior to just a year ago is the same reason that you do not

12 have a photograph of Sredoje Lukic holding his newborn niece, and that is

13 that while you may have been discharged from the hospital on the 26th of

14 June --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. --

16 MR. GROOME: Can I finish --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the objection?

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we had an assertion

19 here, and we don't know what this assertion is corroborated by.

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Previous translation continues] ...

21 microphone, thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: What assertion are you talking about? He's

23 putting his case as he's obliged to.

24 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but it sounds a little bit

25 different to me.

Page 3690

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's his case on his instructions, and he's

2 quite rightly putting it, and I just wish more lawyers would do that.

3 Yes, go ahead.

4 MR. GROOME:

5 Q. Let me just recap my question to you. So I'm putting to you that

6 the reason that you had not come forward in the seven years since the

7 indictment was made public with this very, very important information

8 that could exonerate him is the very same reason that you do not have a

9 photograph of him during his four-hour visit with your newborn niece, and

10 that is because, although it may be true that you were discharged from

11 the hospital on the 26th, I put it to you that it is not true that he

12 visited you on the 27th, the precise day he is alleged to have been in

13 Visegrad.

14 A. I maintain to you that he visited me on the 27th of June, 1992,

15 the day after I left the hospital with my newborn. He visited me

16 together with his wife and his children. I did not have a camera at the

17 time to be able to take a photo, and he didn't have one either. I had a

18 picture of my baby taken only at the hospital as we were leaving. There

19 is a picture of the baby alone.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just tell us, who are the other persons who were

21 there during that visit by Sredoje? Can you just list all of them for

22 me?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My husband; myself; my elder

24 daughter, a baby; Sredoje; his wife; and his children.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Anybody from outside the family? Was there

Page 3691

1 anybody there not a member of family?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. There was no one else.

3 MR. GROOME:

4 Q. Mrs. Lukic, is there any possibility in your mind that it may

5 have been a different day shortly after the birth of the baby, perhaps

6 the 28th, the 29th, the 30th? Is there any possibility that that could

7 be true given the fact that it's so many years in the past now?

8 A. It's a very important date to me. I remember all the first

9 visits that I received after the birth of my first, my second, and the

10 third baby. The birthdays of my children are very important to me, and

11 also important to me are the people who came to visit me immediately

12 after I left the hospital, the maternity ward.

13 Q. What gift did Sredoje bring?

14 A. The custom in our parts is to give a gift of money, and that's

15 what he gave us.

16 Q. So if I were to ask you for each of your children all of the

17 people who visited -- visited you, the first time they visited, you are

18 confident that you would be able to give an accurate and reliable list of

19 those people and the dates on which they visited -- visited you after

20 giving birth to a child?

21 A. Certainly. After the birth of my first child, my mother and

22 brother were the first to visit as soon as I came home. After my second

23 child, it was Sredoje with his wife and children. After my third child,

24 unfortunately, no one came within the first month because Belgrade was

25 being bombed at the time and nobody was able to come.

Page 3692

1 Q. But --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why are you able to recollect Sredoje's visit as

3 taking place on the day after you came out of the hospital as distinct

4 from, say, two or three days after that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I always remember these

6 things, the first people who call on me, and he came the day after,

7 immediately after I came back home.

8 MR. GROOME:

9 Q. Mrs. Lukic, I just want to conclude by --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second.

11 MR. GROOME: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, are you calling any of the other

14 family members who were present during Sredoje's visit?

15 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, just -- we announced the list just of

16 four witnesses.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that's -- you don't intend to call her

18 husband or the children, any of the children?

19 MR. CEPIC: We thought that would be sufficient for that purpose.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.

21 Yes, Mr. Groome.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just a correction to the transcript.

23 On page 81, line 7, it's been made known to me that it should say 8th of

24 January, 2008, not 28th of January, so I'd ask that that correction be

25 made to the transcript.

Page 3693

1 Q. Mrs. Lukic, could you tell us the dates of birth of

2 Sredoje Lukic's two children?

3 A. I can't give you the exact date. I know that his son is older

4 than my eldest daughter. Danijela [phoen] was born in 1988, and my

5 daughter was born in 1989.

6 Q. I want to --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

8 MR. CEPIC: -- just intervene in transcript.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Cepic come closer to the microphone,

10 please.

11 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... line 14, it is

12 not Danijela but Danila [phoen], the name of the child.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Danila.

14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.

15 MR. GROOME:

16 Q. I just want to read you a brief transcript of your interview,

17 which is now in evidence, and the reference is page 2, lines 2 to 9.

18 Mr. Caine asked you: "How did he contact you?" And the "he" refers to

19 Mr. Cepic. And you responded: "Well, Sredoje remembered the exact date

20 when I gave birth and that he visited me the next day, so he has informed

21 the attorney to contact me, and that is how we got in touch ."

22 It remains a fact that you did not come up -- that you did not

23 realize that the date that Sredoje Lukic came to visit you was important.

24 It was something that was told to you actually quite recently. Is that

25 not true?

Page 3694

1 A. Correct.

2 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Mrs. Lukic.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has been given the original document

4 with the discharge. Have you seen it, Mr. Groome?

5 MR. GROOME: I took a quick look at the break, Your Honour. I do

6 plan to take a closer look, perhaps, but I have no objection now to that

7 document being introduced into evidence.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll admit the original of the document. Court

9 deputy.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The original will be admitted and kept in the

11 vault, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Here it is. Mr. Cepic [microphone not

13 activated] --

14 MR. CEPIC: No, Your Honour.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for his Honour.

16 MR. CEPIC: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank you

17 for coming to the Tribunal to testify. You may now leave.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your mic.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, the indictment in counts 13, 14, 15,

23 16, and 17 recites on or about 27th June, et cetera, et cetera. And is

24 it your case that this event took place on the 27th or on or about the

25 27th?