1 Monday, 15 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.02 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you are to make your opening
7 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, with the leave of the Court, we will
8 not be making an opening statement. And to the effect that that waives
9 our opportunity to make the opening statement, I simply must reaffirm
10 what I stated, is that, you know, one of the attorney's duties in an
11 opening statement is to say what the evidence will show in the case in
12 chief, and the attorney involved needs to be familiar enough with his own
13 evidence to make in good faith a statement as to what I can expect the
14 evidence will show. Our 65 ter summaries take a stab at that, but even
15 our own generation of those 65 ter summaries is based on hearsay and
16 preparations that went on and that went on -- our case investigations
17 that we now know are part of a criminal contempt investigation.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
19 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you going a make an opening statement or
22 MR. ALARID: No, sir.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you're not, very well, call your first
25 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we do not have a witness available
1 pursuant to the witness difficulties. Mr. Ivetic traveled to the Balkans
2 over the weekend to facilitate interviewing our potential witnesses and
3 whatnot. The best we can get with our witnesses is someone in -- that
4 will be coming in I believe tomorrow? Tomorrow, available for Wednesday.
5 Excuse me. Tomorrow and Wednesday, available for Wednesday and Thursday.
6 And that is the best we have, Your Honour. I raise --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
8 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: That best is simply not good enough, Mr. Alarid.
10 Did you not file, as was required, a list of the witnesses that you'd be
11 calling, and there was one, I believe, for today after your opening
13 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour, and --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, tell me precisely why that witness is not
16 MR. ALARID: Because the necessary documentation and procedures
17 that are required by the Witness and Victims, we were not able to get
18 that done considering how stretched thin we are, Your Honour. I mean --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why is that, Mr. Alarid? Why is that?
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, Victims and Witnesses have reported to
21 the Trial Chamber the difficulties based upon their inability to get the
22 witness here. It's not a matter of the Defence of Milan Lukic not being
23 able to get this first witness here, Your Honours.
24 MR. ALARID: And Your Honour, I mean --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to ask for the Victims and Witnesses
1 Unit to be represented here and to provide the explanation. May I ask
2 the registrar --
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand that there is a representative from
5 the Victims and Witnesses Unit, and I will ask him, Mr. De Witt, to
6 address the Court on this matter.
7 MR. DE WITT: Your Honours, my name is Gus De Witt. I'm the
8 chief of the Witness and Victims Section, and I would like to explain
9 what has happened in terms of the first few witnesses that the Defence of
10 Milan Lukic have scheduled for this week.
11 What I may explain is it's a series of e-mails, communication
12 between the Milan Lukic Defence team and the Victims and Witnesses trial
13 assistant who makes the logistical arrangements for the arrival of
15 There are three witnesses which we were informed were scheduled
16 for this week by the Milan Lukic Defence team, and I'm just looking at
17 the Defence team just to ensure that I can mention their names. I
18 believe they are not protected witnesses so I will --
19 MR. IVETIC: They are actually protected witnesses. Two of them
20 are, one is not. Two are protected, one is not.
21 MR. DE WITT: Right.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move into private session because I want a
23 full explanation.
24 [Private session]
25 [Part of Private Session made public by order of Trial Chamber]
11 Pages 3826-3829 redacted. Private session.
5 Mr. Alarid and Mr. Ivetic, I am distressed by what I have heard.
6 Absolutely distressed. Mr. Ivetic, you led me to believe that this was a
7 matter that was up to the Victims and Witnesses Unit. It is entirely
8 your fault --
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- for notifying the Victims and Witnesses Unit
11 so late. Even the 10th of December is late for a witness to be present
12 in court today. So you have absolutely no excuse, and let me make myself
13 pellucidly clear: I will not put up with that from you anymore. You
14 have a solemn duty to defend the accused Milan Lukic, and I am going to
15 see to it that you discharge it. Otherwise, you will face the penalties.
16 How can you expect to have witnesses here when you notify the
17 Victims and Witnesses Unit on Friday last week? What do you think they
18 are? What do you think they are? Do you think they pull the witnesses
19 out of a hat?
20 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, well, I think the Witnesses and Victims
21 Unit are -- specifically are this: Human beings that are under the same
22 constraints that we are --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Listen to me. Listen to me.
24 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off. I have cut you off. I am
1 not putting up with slackness like this in my court. I want you to
2 understand that. That is slackness. It is negligence of the highest
3 order. You must notify the Victims and Witnesses Unit in good enough
4 time if you expect the witnesses to be here. If you don't, you are not
5 discharging your duty to your client. You are being unprofessional. Do
6 I make myself clear?
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if I -- if I may just --
8 MR. ALARID: Your Honour -- just a second. If you're going to
9 call me unprofessional, then I call this Court on giving me not the
10 resources to get my job done --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off.
12 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I have cut you off.
14 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off.
16 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off, Mr. -- you are totally off.
18 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is entirely your fault.
20 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Entirely your fault.
22 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]... and the time we have. We
23 have not been given the requisite time.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid --
25 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, you have not done the best you can.
2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, it is clear to me this Court believes
3 that I am privately retained. It is clear to me you think I have a staff
4 of -- of lackeys that are being paid by Mr. Lukic. It is clear to me
5 that this bribery allegation -- [Microphone cut off]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off --
7 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have cut you off. I have cut you off because
9 I find your remarks to be totally inappropriate. That is a matter that
10 has been already dealt with by the Trial Chamber and dealt with in a
11 manner entirely favorable to you. I insisted on it being dealt with in
12 that way.
13 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Favorable to you.
15 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We did not find that the contempt had any merit
17 in it, and I insisted on saying that we found not one scintilla of
18 evidence to implicate you or any of your colleagues.
19 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, but you realize -- [Microphone cut off]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So I will not hear anything more from you.
21 MR. ALARID: Well, let me -- let me -- let me tell you --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Nothing more from you.
23 MR. ALARID: What I would like to do, Your Honour, is introduce
24 you to my case -- the person that was -- [Microphone cut off]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are not going to introduce me to anything.
1 We are going to adjourn now, and you will take this warning from me. You
2 will take this warning from me that you are here to represent
3 Mr. Milan
4 entirely your fault. I find that it is entirely your fault.
5 MR. ALARID: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Notification, as was just stated by Mr. De Witt,
7 was entirely too late for witnesses to be here.
8 MR. ALARID: And I agree with that --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you are serious -- if are sufficiently
10 serious in discharging your duty to your client, you would not have
11 informed the Victims and Witnesses Unit on Friday with the expectation,
12 with any reasonable expectation that they would have witnesses here
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, and I must correct the record because
15 that is absolutely a misrepresentation. Mr. Markovic was a witness that
16 had been noticed for the week prior, Your Honours. After the hearing on
17 Tuesday, we found out we were going to have court on Monday. That very
18 next day, we started the process of getting more witnesses in addition to
19 Mr. Markovic. Mr. Markovic's papers were all in order, so yes, he could
20 come here within two days. As a matter of fact, Victims and Witnesses --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down, please. Slow down.
22 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... to travel.
23 That's today, to travel. So we did discharge our duties. I went from
24 Thursday till last night --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The counsel is kindly
1 asked to slow down for interpretation.
2 MR. IVETIC: I went from last Thursday traveling to the area to
3 meet with witnesses to prepare them, not only for this week but for the
4 ongoing witnesses after this week, Your Honour. I came back at 11.00
5 last night in order to discharge my duties.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The problem I find with that, you're talking
7 about what you are doing now. What about the time before? All the time
8 that has gone before?
9 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you begin to prepare your defence --
11 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- when you are called on to present your
14 MR. IVETIC: In this case, yes, Your Honour, because of the
15 circumstances that we had. How could we do it before?
16 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is -- that is nonsense and totally
19 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Totally unprofessional.
21 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've cut you off. Please stop.
23 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please stop. Stop. Stop.
25 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you find it a horrible burden and you don't
2 think you can discharge it, then you know what to do.
3 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't want to tell.
5 MR. ALARID: [Microphone cut off]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to adjourn now. Legal counsel.
7 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it looks as though we will have to adjourn
9 until Wednesday morning, but let me say this before we do. On the 18th
10 of November, the Chamber ordered Milan Lukic's Defence to begin its case
11 immediately following that of Sredoje Lukic. Sredoje Lukic closed his
12 case on the 2nd of December. Milan Lukic Defence, however, was not ready
13 to begin its case on the 3rd of December. The Chamber adjourned the
14 proceedings until 9 December, but again, the Milan Lukic Defence was not
15 ready to open its case. The Chamber therefore adjourned the proceedings
16 for a second time to today's hearing.
17 Let us move to public session, and I'll begin again. You may
18 both sit.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the 18th of December, the Chamber ordered the
22 Defence of Milan Lukic to begin its case immediately following that of
23 Sredoje Lukic. The Defence of Sredoje Lukic closed on the 2nd of
24 December, but Milan Lukic was not ready to present his case on the 3rd of
25 December. Trial Chamber adjourned the proceedings until the 9th of
1 December, but again, the Milan Lukic Defence was not ready to open its
2 case. The Trial Chamber, therefore, has adjourned the proceedings for a
3 second time to today's hearing.
4 In our view, no efforts have been made to comply with the
5 Chamber's order of the 18th of November. The two adjournments have been
6 the result of the failure of the Milan Lukic Defence to comply with the
7 Chamber's orders, to commence presentation of its case on the 3rd and 9th
9 As a consequence, a total of six sitting days have been lost.
10 The Chamber is of the view that these two instances of failure by counsel
11 to comply with specific directions have obstructed the proper conduct of
12 the proceedings. Should there be any further repetition, the Chamber
13 will be required to consider what is the appropriate course of action to
14 take pursuant to the Rules of Procedure.
15 The Chamber further recalls that on the 2nd and 9th of December,
16 it warned the Defence that when witnesses are scheduled to attend, they
17 will only be excused if good cause is shown. The Defence was reminded
18 that if there is no good cause, the witness's time can be counted against
19 the number of witnesses and the time allocated to the Defence.
20 Therefore, the Chamber rules that the two witnesses scheduled to
21 testify last week will be deducted from the Defence witness allotment,
22 and the Chamber will also deduct the time for these witnesses from the
23 time allocated to the Defence to present its case.
24 The Chamber will still insist on the deadline of the 6th of March
25 for the end of the Defence case.
1 We are going to adjourn now until Wednesday morning when it is
2 expected that we will have a Defence witness to testify on behalf of the
3 accused Milan Lukic.
4 We are adjourned.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.29 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
7 December, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.