Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3838

 1                           Wednesday, 17 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.53 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann, I understand you have a

 6     preliminary mater to raise.

 7             MR. DIECKMANN:  Your Honours, good morning.  Thank you.  First of

 8     all, it's relating to the document 2D48.  2D48 was tendered through

 9     witness Branimir Bugarski on the 2nd December, 2008, and because of

10     incorrect CLSS translation, 2D48 is marked for identification pending a

11     correct translation.  The correct translation was received on the 5th

12     December and uploaded into the e-court system under the number 2D05-0312.

13     Immediately, all parties were informed, and on 10th December, 2008, the

14     Prosecution informed us that they accept the new translation.  Therefore,

15     the Defence asks for the admission of this exhibit now.

16             MR. GROOME:  I have no objection, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's admitted.

18             MR. DIECKMANN:  Thank you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit 2D45 [sic] will become --

20     admitted into evidence.

21             MR. DIECKMANN:  Secondly, I would like to ask if we can go in

22     private session.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 3839

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. DIECKMANN:  I've just seen on page 1, line 19, I think the

11     exhibit number is 2D48, not 45.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That is correct, Your Honour.  Apologies.

13             MR. DIECKMANN:  That's all.  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Alarid, please call your first

15     witness.

16             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, Mr. Ivetic will be handling the first

17     witness.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I would call Mr. Zeljko

20     Markovic to the stand.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What's the time estimate, Mr. Ivetic?

22             MR. IVETIC:  I think I should be between one hour and one and a

23     half hours, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 3840

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may begin, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           WITNESS:  ZELJKO MARKOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 9        Q.   Good day, sir.  As you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the attorneys

10     for Milan Lukic, and for purposes of the record, I would ask you to

11     please introduce yourself briefly.

12        A.   Good morning, Your Honours.  My name is Zeljko Markovic.  I was

13     born on the 15th of January, 1967, in Pljevlja in Republic of Montenegro.

14     I'm married, father of 2.  I graduated from a faculty in Belgrade and I

15     worked for 20 years as a police officer in the Republic of Serbia MUP

16     until I was invalided out.  I worked in Belgrade.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness is kindly

18     asked to slow down.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Thank you, sir, and again, if you could stay close to the

21     microphone, the translators are asking for that.  You've already told us

22     about some of the factors from your background.  Could you please give us

23     some background as to your educational history?

24        A.   After I completed the secondary school in Bijela Polje in

25     Montenegro, I went to Belgrade to study where I graduated from the

Page 3841

 1     faculty of mathematics and natural science.  I graduated in geography,

 2     and then I specialized at the same faculty.  I specialized in maritime

 3     tourism.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And you mentioned that you have 20 years experience

 5     as a police officer in the Republic of Serbia MUP.  I would ask you in

 6     this regard if you could enlighten us as to whether or not the MUP in

 7     Republic of Serbia in 1992 or the years leading up to it had any

 8     educational faculty or college in Obrenovac.

 9        A.   The MUP of the Republic of Serbia in 1992 and before that did not

10     have any faculty, not only in Obrenovac but in the Republic of Serbia.

11     There was no faculty.  There was just the post-secondary college in

12     Saradusna [phoen] Street.  That's where it is now, and after a while in

13     1992 or maybe even 2000, I'm not quite sure, a faculty of -- the security

14     faculty was set up by the institute of security in Banica [phoen], so

15     that was the only faculty of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia that

16     exists, and the higher school, the post-secondary school in Zemun.  There

17     is also the secondary school in Kamenica near Novi Sad which is a MUP

18     facility, and there is a small boarding school for police trainees in

19     Klis near Novi Sad.  Other than that, there is nothing in the Republic of

20     Serbia.  There are no secondary schools, police secondary schools in

21     Obrenovac.  There are other secondary schools, I'm sure about that.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir, and I'm waiting to allow the English translation

23     and the transcript to catch up with us, so if I have a pause, that's why

24     it is.

25             Now, one more question on that topic.  What precise job position

Page 3842

 1     did you have in the year 1992 within the Serbian MUP?

 2        A.   I held several jobs.  I first started out as a police officer, as

 3     a beat policeman in the MUP of Republic of Serbia until I graduated, so

 4     my posts changed as time went by.  In 1992, I worked in the unit

 5     providing security to the republican organs of the Republic of Serbia

 6     government.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir, and again, I'm just waiting for the transcript.

 8     And for the complete picture, you mentioned you were subjected to an

 9     invalid pension from the MUP.  Could you -- retirement or pensia.  If you

10     could tell us, are you currently employed in any other field or position?

11        A.   No.  No.  I'm not willing, I'm not able to work because I have an

12     injury in my leg, the right hip, to be more specific, because I was in a

13     traffic accident.  It was a serious accident.  It happened in 2003, and

14     since 2005, the 21st of June, I have been retired and I am not able to

15     engage in any kind of work.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir, and if you could just tell us where you resided

17     in the year 1992 and if you resided alone or if anyone resided with you.

18        A.   Well, from the time that I arrived in Belgrade when I got the job

19     after I left the campus where I had been staying during my studies, I

20     changed apartments several times.  I rented apartments.  In 1992, I lived

21     in Zemun, in Banjicka [phoen] Street.  The number is 35.  I lived with my

22     wife's grandmother, Angelina Klincov.  That's the grandmother's name.  My

23     wife's name is Natasa.  It was a small outhouse in the yard, and I lived

24     there with my wife, Natasa.  We've lived together since the 7th of June,

25     1988.

Page 3843

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And now I'd ask you to tell us, please, if you

 2     know Milan Lukic, that is to say the gentleman sitting right behind me.

 3        A.   I know Mr. Milan Lukic very well.  We met in 1987 in Studenski

 4     Grad, the halls of residence in Belgrade.  When I came there to study, I

 5     lived there.  Mr. Milan Lukic often came to visit the Studenski Grad

 6     facility.  He didn't live there in the halls of residence, but he came to

 7     see his brother Novica, who lived in the same building where I did.  And

 8     since Novica socialized with my friends from Bijela Polje and since he

 9     often came to their room, room number 38, in this building in Studenski

10     Grad, that's how I met Milan.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And with respect to Mr. Milan Lukic, did you have

12     occasion to socialize with him on those occasions when he came to visit

13     his brother Novica, and if, so how frequently and what types of

14     activities?

15        A.   Well, Milan came to Studenski Grad quite often after we met.  We

16     soon started socializing quite extensively, not only I but also some

17     other friends of mine, colleagues, students from Bijelo Polje who studied

18     with me at the time, and since Milan was a football player - he was an

19     athlete, in other words - and I used to play football, too, back in

20     Bijelo Polje, it was easy for us to find common ground as a basis for our

21     friendship.  He was very communicative.  He always had a smile on his

22     face, and I liked it.  So I socialized with him more than I did with his

23     brother Novica.  I merely knew his brother.  We were acquainted.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, if I could ask you, from the time period

25     between 1987 until 1992, did Milan Lukic remain, remain in Belgrade that

Page 3844

 1     entire time period or not?

 2        A.   Well, I stayed in Studenski Grad until 1989.  That's when I got a

 3     job, in September, and that's when I left, but up until 1989, about a

 4     year, a year and a half, Milan continued coming to Studenski Grad.  And

 5     after that, as far as I know, he went to Germany - at least, that's what

 6     he told me - and then to Switzerland.  I would not go that often to

 7     Studenski Grad.  I was not there as often as I was before, but I remember

 8     that once or twice, I saw him there in Studenski Grad.

 9        Q.   And did you -- if you could clarify for us -- waiting for the

10     translation to catch up, but if you could clarify for us, did you see

11     Milan Lukic after he left Yugoslavia for Europe -- to do what he was

12     doing in Europe and in Switzerland?

13        A.   Well, I saw him.  I don't know what year that was, perhaps 1989

14     or 1990 or thereabouts, while he was in Germany, and he told me that he

15     played football in some league in Germany and that he was a waiter, a

16     barman.  And then our next meeting was in 1992, the one that I really

17     remember.  So ...

18        Q.   Okay.  We'll get to that.  Now, if you could describe the Milan

19     Lukic that you knew from the days in the student city, the Milan Lukic

20     that went to Europe, in Germany and Switzerland.  How would you describe

21     him as a person and in his interactions with other people?

22        A.   As a person in context with other people, I would describe him as

23     a paragon of gentleman-like behavior, if I could use those terms.  All

24     the friends, all the students who met him were astonished and

25     enthusiastic about him.  He was -- on the one hand, he was always quiet

Page 3845

 1     and not pushy, but on the other hand he was friendly.  He was always a

 2     modest person.  He lived with modest means, and he used to sell bottles

 3     of juice for food vouchers and then he would take those to the bus

 4     station and sell them there in order to get by.  But he would always

 5     invite us for a drink, although he was a student himself.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Again, we're just waiting for the transcript to

 7     catch up.  I apologize.  It's one of the nuances of this courtroom.

 8             How would you describe how Milan Lukic acted towards persons of

 9     different ethnic groups?  That is to say, did he treat people differently

10     based on what ethnic group they belonged to?

11        A.   Let me give you a specific example.  I was in room 42 in

12     Studenski Grad.  There were three roommates.  There were four of us, all

13     told.  One of them was a Montenegrin, the same ethnic background as I

14     was, and the other two were Muslims from Bijelo Polje.  I can even give

15     you the names.  He knew them and he socialized them in the same way in

16     which he did with me.  I never saw any traces of intolerance in him

17     towards any people of other ethnic backgrounds, religion, or race.

18        Q.   And --

19        A.   And I can even give you the names of those students.  Mersud

20     Lakic, my roommate; he got a master's degree in molecular biology in

21     Belgrade.  Now he also has his doctoral degree in molecular biology.  He

22     lives in the United States of America.  Also, Saladin Udzevic [phoen],

23     also from Bijelo Polje.  We would all hang out together, we would play

24     various card games and we had --  we would have a drink.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned earlier that you recalled an

Page 3846

 1     occasion in 1992 when you had contact with Milan Lukic who had returned

 2     from Europe to Belgrade.  Can you tell us about the first such instance

 3     in 1992 that you have a recollection of?

 4        A.   It was in late April or early May when he came back from

 5     Switzerland, as he told me, and I remember that he had some problems

 6     because his mother was sick.  He told me that he had to take his mother

 7     from Visegrad there.  I don't know how he planned to do that because it

 8     was wartime at that time there, and he didn't have any means of

 9     transportation.  That was in late April, early May.  I know well that I

10     saw him in Studenski Grad on the 5th of May.  I went to the photocopy

11     office there to photocopy some books because my wife and I were students

12     at the time and there was a photocopy office there which was cheaper, and

13     all students used this facility.

14             We met there, and we went to a cafe called Index, which is in the

15     immediate vicinity of Studenski Grad.  That was our custom from our

16     student days to go there, to the Index cafe.  It was nothing special, but

17     it did have an advantage for students because all students who got the

18     best mark in any subjects at their university would get a free hamburger

19     and Coke, for him or her and their friends.  And that's why we went

20     there.  It was just a habit.  I think that there was an Albanian who was

21     the owner of the cafe.  I don't know the name.  I just knew this man by

22     sight.  This cafe still exists.

23             We sat down.  It was the 5th of May in the afternoon, and he

24     says, I don't know what to do, can you help me, can you find some vehicle

25     that I could use to go to Visegrad and fetch my mother.  And I told him,

Page 3847

 1     I don't have a car.  In fact, I did have a car, but I crashed it.  It was

 2     in Montenegro, and it was being repaired.  And he said that he didn't

 3     have -- I said I didn't have anyone else to ask because nobody wanted to

 4     lend their car for such a long-distance trip.  And he said -- and I said,

 5     the only thing I can do was to go to a car rental shop.  I knew an owner

 6     of one of the car rental shops.  It was called Tref, in Sava Centre, and

 7     I suggested to him that he should wait for me a couple of minutes in

 8     Index because I should go to my house, change into my uniform because the

 9     owner would not remember me if I didn't -- if I wasn't in uniform.  He

10     knew me because he knew that I provided security in Sava Centre where the

11     third channel of Belgrade TV was.  That was the main reason, and that's

12     how I got to know the owner.

13             I took a taxi.  I lived close by.  I went home.  I put on my

14     police uniform.  I didn't even go to Index.  He got out immediately.  We

15     went down to Sava Centre, to this car rental shop.

16        Q.   If we could just back up for a second to get a full picture.  You

17     indicated this was the 5th of May.  Is there a reason that this date

18     relating to this particular instance is clear in your mind?

19        A.   I was about to say that.  It was easy for me to remember the 5th

20     of May because the 6th of May in Serbia and in Montenegro among the

21     families with the name of Markovic is St. George's Day, the Markovic

22     family patron saint's day.  Every 6th of May, unless something

23     extraordinary happens to prevent me, I go to my native Vodno near

24     Pljevlja, where my entire family celebrates St. George's Day at my

25     uncle's house.  The custom is to celebrate in the house of the eldest

Page 3848

 1     brother, and since my uncle was the eldest brother in the family, we did

 2     it there.  So I remember the 5th of May well because on the 6th of May I

 3     was unable to attend this celebration because I had to go elsewhere, and

 4     I'll explain that later.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, could you go back to telling us how it was

 6     that you and Mr. Milan Lukic went about obtaining an automobile for this

 7     trip to Visegrad to fetch his mother.

 8        A.   Well, I started to explain.  I took that taxi, put on my uniform,

 9     and when we reached students' town, he got out of that Cafe Index, and we

10     continued towards the congress centre called Sava Centre.

11        Q.   And what happened when you reached the rental car company?

12        A.   When we got to the congress centre, we found a girl working at

13     the agency, a girl I didn't know particularly.  We said we needed a car

14     for a day or two to go to Visegrad, how much that would be, et cetera.

15     She answered that she did not dare to give us a car.  The owner forbade

16     it because she had heard it was a war zone there in Bosnia, because they

17     feared that the car would be damaged or never be returned to the owner.

18     I asked her if she could fetch the owner, named Vlada, to talk to me.

19     She dialed the phone.  He must have been somewhere around in the congress

20     centre, and he showed up 20 minutes later.

21             So when the owner came, I told him the whole story.  I said my

22     friend came back from Switzerland, he would need a rental car to go to

23     Visegrad, get his mother, drive back.  There will be no problem.  He'll

24     come back with the car.  He's a nice guy.  The owner was not really

25     thrilled, but at one point, Milan said, I'll leave a deposit of 1.000

Page 3849

 1     Swiss francs, and then the owner changed his mind.  He said, pointing to

 2     me, I'll give you the car for his sake.  He's the guarantor.  He knew me

 3     because I worked as a security guard there, and of course he knew I was

 4     employed with the police.

 5             So he issued the car in my name, and I was the one who eventually

 6     returned it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, if I could ask you, you indicated you were in your

 8     official police uniform.  How was Milan Lukic dressed that day while you

 9     were in Belgrade about to set out for Visegrad?

10        A.   Milan Lukic was always in casual, sporty clothes.  On that day,

11     he was wearing a suede jacket and jeans.  That suede jacket was more like

12     a dress jacket, but it was in fact an ordinary, casual jacket.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, could you describe for us what type of

14     vehicle you ended up renting?

15        A.   Of course.  It was a Volkswagen Golf 2, white with a Belgrade

16     license plate, but I can't tell you the number.  I really can't tell you

17     the number because I don't remember even my own license plate, because

18     every time I have to pay the parking metre, I have to look again at my

19     own license plate in order to type it into my mobile phone for the

20     parking fee SMS message.

21        Q.   Now, if I can ask you, when was it that you agreed to set out

22     with Milan, that is to say, what day had you agreed to set out with Milan

23     for Visegrad, and did you tell your family where you were going, that you

24     were in fact going to Visegrad?

25        A.   Well, that day when we took the car, it became clear that I had

Page 3850

 1     to go with the car because it was my responsibility.  The owner released

 2     the car in my name, and Milan Lukic could not drive alone with papers in

 3     my name.  And I told my family when I came back, that is, I told my wife

 4     when I came back from the congress centre that I was going, but I didn't

 5     tell her I was going to Visegrad.  I told her I took the car because I

 6     was going to attend that patron saint's celebration because, because as I

 7     told her, no other transport was available.  There were no other bus

 8     tickets, et cetera, so I had to take a car.  Anyway, I did that to

 9     alleviate her fears because otherwise, she would be afraid if I had told

10     her where exactly I was going.

11        Q.   When you set out -- first of all, what was the route that you

12     took and the precise date and approximate time when you set out?

13        A.   Well, we set out in the morning at 7 a.m., meeting outside the

14     students' town.  He was waiting for me by the traffic lights, since I

15     didn't know exactly where he lived in the neighborhood of Bezanijska

16     Kosa, which was very new at the time.  I wasn't familiar with the layout,

17     with the streets.  It was easier to meet outside students' town.

18             We set out at 7 a.m., and I remember we tanked up at Radnicka

19     Street in Belgrade.  We continued on the Ibar motorway via Cacak and

20     Uzice.  On the way, we made a short stop at Ovcar-Kablar Gorge, a few

21     kilometers after Cacak in the direction of Uzicka Pozega.  We stopped

22     there for 30 minutes at a restaurant called Njegos.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   We had breakfast and as I remember clearly, the restaurant is

25     call Njegos because it serves some Montenegrin delicacies.  Among them,

Page 3851

 1     njegusi steak, which I had for breakfast, and Milan had a light

 2     breakfast, like an omelette.  He wasn't very hungry.

 3        Q.   Could you tell us, did you have an occasion to encounter any

 4     check points or roadblocks on the way from Belgrade to the administrative

 5     border with Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   On the territory of Serbia, there were no check points, no

 7     roadblocks at least, so we had a free passage.  There were routine

 8     traffic controls, and we were stopped somewhere by Sevojno at one of

 9     them, but it was just to check the papers for the car and the driver's

10     license, no other questions asked.

11        Q.   All right.  If I can back up a bit, you had mentioned that Milan

12     had offered some 1.000 Swiss francs for this vehicle.  What was the

13     economic situation in 1992 in the Republic of Serbia?  Perhaps if you

14     could relate that to your own personal experiences or knowledge relating

15     to your police salary, et cetera.

16        A.   Of course I can explain, because that time remains etched in my

17     memory.  The 1.000 Swiss francs were made as a deposit, not a payment, by

18     Milan Lukic.  The economic situation in 1992 and 1993 in Serbia was a

19     real catastrophe.  There was a galloping inflation, and I can give you an

20     example because life was very hard for me at that time, so I remember it

21     well.  When I received my monthly salary, by the end of the day that

22     entire salary could buy only one German mark, and that's what we did.  I

23     was a tenant in my apartment.  My rent was 40 Deutschmark, and I could

24     buy only one Deutschmark on payday from street dealers.  The very next

25     morning, that salary couldn't buy you a loaf of bread.  That's how bad

Page 3852

 1     the inflation was.  So 1.000 Swiss francs was a treasure, great wealth.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Again, I'm just waiting for the transcript to

 3     catch up with us.  Now, if we could turn to your recitation of the trip

 4     with Milan Lukic on the 6th of May to Visegrad.  Could you tell us if

 5     anything happened at the administrative border between Bosnia-Herzegovina

 6     and the Republic of Serbia?

 7        A.   At the administrative border between Serbia and

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, nothing special happened.  There was a routine

 9     traffic control by Serbian policeman.  There were only policemen at the

10     check point.  Of course, they checked our papers, good morning, good

11     morning, where are you going, can we see your papers.  From me, since I

12     was in uniform, they asked also the police ID card because anybody can

13     put on a uniform and impersonate a policeman.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Again waiting for the transcript.  After

15     crossing the administrative border, did you at that point in time

16     encounter -- encounter any check points or roadblocks on the way from the

17     Serbian border towards the municipality of Visegrad?

18        A.   After we crossed the border, there were two or, rather, three

19     check points, one just after the border at a place called Vardiste where

20     there was an army barracks, and I noticed a lot of army personnel and

21     policemen around there.  That was the first time we were stopped.  They

22     asked where we were going, look at our documents.  They also checked the

23     boot of the car.  We answered all these questions and continued.

24             The next stop was in Dobrun where the road forks towards Lima and

25     Visegrad.  There was another check point manned by army personnel and a

Page 3853

 1     few policemen, the same story as in Vardiste, the same procedure, and

 2     then we continued on the way to Visegrad.

 3             The next stop was a check point, if you can call it a check

 4     point, manned only by the police, no army.  I remember it very well

 5     because there's a petrol station on the left side, and the policemen were

 6     on the right side of the road.  We were stopped there.  We were asked

 7     where we were going.  They looked at Milan's documents.  I think it was a

 8     passport that he offered, and I remember one of the policemen said, you,

 9     sir, have to go to the duty service of the police station to register.

10     When Milan asked why, they said, all will be explained to you at the duty

11     service of SUP Visegrad.

12        Q.   And could you explain for us where the police station or SUP of

13     Visegrad was located and where you had to travel to get to it, what route

14     you took?

15        A.   Well, we continued straight on, downhill, then the road takes you

16     a bit to the left, and across a small bridge leading to the centre of

17     Visegrad.  When you take a slight left turn, there was a police station,

18     and across the road there was a small green market, so we stopped on that

19     road leading to the centre.  I parked outside the police station.  There

20     were some policemen there carrying rifles, I noticed.  Milan got out.  I

21     didn't want to get out because I was wearing a different uniform, and he

22     got into the police station.  The entrance was on the upper side of the

23     building.  It was a two-storey, old building.

24        Q.   If I could back up a bit.  Where precisely did you park?  Where

25     exactly did you park?  Could you describe the location where you parked?

Page 3854

 1        A.   Well, when you take the turn towards the police station going

 2     towards the centre, if you take it further left, there was a small green

 3     market where I parked.  I could not park exactly outside the police

 4     station because it's to the left of the road.

 5        Q.   And what happened then?  Did you both go into the police station?

 6        A.   No.  I stayed in the car.  Milan went into the police station

 7     alone.  I waited.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  [Previous translation continues] ... to what

 9     incidents in the indictment is this evidence related?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, this is the arrival of Milan Lukic to

11     Visegrad, which is an element that's been alleged by the Prosecution.

12     It's not an indictment charge, as this witness was presented under Rule

13     65 ter for explaining how it was that Milan Lukic came to Visegrad, when

14     he came to Visegrad, and we're getting up to the critical part now.  I

15     don't want to taint the witness, but we're getting to the critical part

16     of why he remained in Visegrad and what he was doing there at the

17     beginning of the war.  So it's not a crime yet.  The witness is also an

18     alibi witness to a specific time period later that we'll be getting to

19     that will be of interest to two of the counts in the indictment against

20     him.  At this point in time, we're still explaining, presenting for the

21     first time the true and accurate picture of how Milan Lukic came to

22     Visegrad, which has been so often the subject of the Prosecution's

23     various witnesses who claim to have seen him there earlier or claim to

24     see him there under different circumstances, so it's of critical

25     importance, and this is the only witness we are presenting for -- for

Page 3855

 1     that time period.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Continue.

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Markovic, you have indicated that Milan went into

 5     the police station alone and you waited.  What happened then?  How long

 6     was Mr. Lukic in the police station?

 7        A.   Well, he stayed quite a while, 45 minutes or so.  I got tired of

 8     waiting, I remember, and I was wondering why he was taking so long.  And

 9     then he showed up, dressed in a police uniform, with a belt on him but no

10     weapons.  I remember that because I started laughing when I saw him

11     wearing a police uniform because he was wearing pants that ended 20

12     centimetres above his shoes.  They must have been out of larger sizes.

13     He got out together with three other policemen.  I got out of the car to

14     see what it was all about, and I said, laughing, what is this story?  And

15     he answered, I have to stay.  They mobilized me into the reserve force of

16     the police.  And I said, how come?  What are you going to do about your

17     mother?  And he said, I have to stay.  It not going to be that bad.  I'll

18     be in the escort of -- in the security detail of Commander Tomic.

19             I don't know this Tomic, but there are many Tomices in my native

20     place of Vrulja, and I remember thinking that it's strange that there is

21     a Tomic in Visegrad as well.

22        Q.   And what -- what, if anything, happened at that time?  What did

23     you do at that point in time?

24        A.   I didn't know what to do, and I asked him, what are we going to

25     do now?  Shall I go fetch your mother?  Where does she live?  And he

Page 3856

 1     said, well, you can't go, you don't know where she lives.  And although

 2     we were laughing about those short trousers, I could see that he was

 3     rather upset, and he said, I'm very sorry about this, brother, you just

 4     go on your way.  And the other policemen told me, get into the car, sir.

 5     We'll escort you up to Vardiste.  You go on your way, and he has to say.

 6        Q.   And did you then at that point in time return from whence you had

 7     came, and did you have occasion to return the rental vehicle?

 8        A.   Yes.  Two policemen got into a Lada Niva vehicle with the police

 9     registration plates.  Milan got back into the police station with another

10     policeman, so two policemen drove ahead of me.  I followed in my Golf,

11     and nobody checked me anymore at the check points because the policeman

12     ahead explained obviously something to the crew at the check points.

13     They took me up to Vardiste, and from then on I returned to Belgrade.  I

14     drove back the vehicle the next day to the owner, Vlada Tref.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when is the next time that you have a clear

16     recollection of being in contact with Milan Lukic after this incident?

17        A.   So he stayed in Bosnia, and after that, the next time was not

18     much later.  It was the 7th of June, and I was astonished to get his

19     call.  He called me at my home, 613506.  Now they added another 3 in

20     front of the 6, my flat in Zemun.  I was dining with my very close

21     friends from Novi Sad because every year, and you remember I said I've

22     lived together with my wife since the 7th of June, 1988, and we always

23     celebrate our own anniversary either at home or at a restaurant or with

24     my best men in Novi Sad, and I know that it was the 7th of June because

25     he called me that evening, and I didn't go to see him because, as I said,

Page 3857

 1     it was this anniversary dinner.

 2        Q.   And you indicated that it was -- to clear up the transcript, I

 3     think in the translation it came through that it was a good friend that

 4     was with you and your wife for this anniversary dinner.  Who exactly was

 5     this friend, and what was his precise relationship with you?

 6        A.   It's a good friend, but in fact he's what we call my kum, my best

 7     man at my wedding, and his wife from Novi Sad.  His name is Darko

 8     Boskovic.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So he's your kum or godbrother.  Now, did Milan Lukic

10     indicate where he was calling from, and did you make any plans with Milan

11     Lukic at that point in time?

12        A.   He called me.  I don't know from which number.  Those are very

13     old exchanges, and to this day you cannot get call identification.  It

14     took a while to get through because the call first comes to the main

15     house where the grandma lives and then to my outhouse.  Anyway, he said

16     he came on a short visit because of his mother and that I should see him

17     in that cafe called 10 where we usually met, Index 10.  But I couldn't

18     go, unfortunately, because I had this anniversary dinner with my best man

19     and his wife.

20        Q.   And did you make arrangements with Mr. Lukic to meet him at some

21     other time, and if so, when?

22        A.   Yes.  I even invited him to join us.  He actually was reluctant

23     to call on me at my house because he didn't want to be in the way.  I do

24     that myself.  I prefer to meet with my friends in cafes and restaurants.

25     I said, anyway, that I couldn't see him at all on the 7th, and I said

Page 3858

 1     that instead, the next morning on the 8th I would come to the students'

 2     town at 10.00 in the morning.  And anyway, I had to go there to the

 3     library to return some books.  So we set a date for the next day at 10.00

 4     in the morning.

 5        Q.   And the location where you agreed or arranged to meet Mr. Lukic,

 6     what was that?

 7        A.   That cafe was Index in students' town, because that was the

 8     shortest way, and it was our usual meeting place.

 9        Q.   And did you have any other appointments that day?

10        A.   After Milan I had another meeting at half past 10, and that's why

11     I suggested to Milan that we should meet at 10, because the previous day

12     I got a call from my uncle, Sava Lekovic, who lived in Mustanica.  It's a

13     suburb, some 20 or 30 kilometers away from Belgrade itself.  He was

14     supposed to come to Belgrade, and I was supposed to accompany him to look

15     for a rental apartment in Belgrade for him.  So I arranged with my uncle

16     to meet at half past 10.

17        Q.   And did you actually go ahead and have the meeting with Milan

18     Lukic at 10.00 on the 8th of June, 1992, in the Cafe Index in Belgrade?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.  When I arrived, Milan was already there in Cafe Index

20     and he was drinking a Coke.  We met but very briefly.  He was in a big

21     hurry, and I asked him how he was, what he was doing, and the only answer

22     I got was, leave me be, I'm very tense.  If it hadn't been for my mother,

23     I would never have returned.  I could have stayed in Switzerland.  He was

24     very tense, and he explained to me that he was in a hurry because he had

25     brought his mother to Belgrade for a medical check-up.  She was ill, and

Page 3859

 1     one of the questions -- one of the reasons why he actually called me was

 2     this:  He says, I have some Muslims in my apartment, some friends of mine

 3     from Visegrad or from wherever, I don't know that, and I'm supposed to

 4     take them to Novi Pazar.  What's the situation en route to Novi Pazar?

 5     Is it safe?

 6        Q.   And what was your response to this inquiry by Mr. Lukic?

 7        A.   Well, it was a strange question.  I told him that there were no

 8     problems for people in the Republic of Serbia, regardless of their

 9     religious affiliation.  They would have no problems going to Novi Pazar.

10     Nobody would ask them any questions.  There could be some routine traffic

11     stops by the police, but if -- and I said, if you need me, I'll accompany

12     you, but there's no need, really.

13        Q.   How long did this encounter with Milan Lukic last at the Cafe

14     Index in the students' city in Belgrade?

15        A.   Very briefly.  When my uncle arrived, Milan was not there.  It

16     was less than half an hour, just ten minutes or so.  He was in a hurry,

17     probably because of his mother.  He had to go to the hospital, so it was

18     about 15, 20 minutes.  By the time my uncle arrived at half past 10, he

19     was already gone.

20        Q.   Tell us, did you have occasion to speak with Milan Lukic in the

21     days following this meeting or encounter with him?

22        A.   Please repeat your question.  I didn't hear you.

23        Q.   After this meeting with Mr. Lukic on the 8th of June, 1992, did

24     you have occasion to speak with him again in the following days?

25        A.   Yes.  The next day, that was the 9th - on the 8th we met.  On the

Page 3860

 1     9th, he did not call, and I found it strange.  I wanted to know what was

 2     happening, so he called me on the 10th.  The day after our meeting, he

 3     didn't call.  He called on the day after that, which was the 10th, and he

 4     told me that he would wrap up himself and that he would go to Novi Pazar.

 5     Thank you, we'll see each other.  And I said to him, have a safe trip,

 6     and that was just a brief conversation.  I didn't want to speak to him

 7     long over the phone because I had this courtesy phone.  There were other

 8     tenants there.  I didn't want to keep the line occupied for a long time,

 9     so I always spoke to people very briefly.  They didn't -- people actually

10     avoid calling me because my grandmother was old and it was a big hassle

11     for her to switch the phone over to my phone.

12        Q.   And sir, after that point in time, did you have any further

13     contact with Mr. Milan Lukic during the duration of the Bosnian civil

14     war, that is to say, the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   During the civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I did not have any

16     encounters with him, no phone calls.  I don't know where he was, what was

17     happening.  The first meeting with Milan Lukic that I had after the end

18     of the war was in late 1996 or 1997, something like that, and this is how

19     it happened.

20             At that time, in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

21     vehicles were imported from western Europe.  So all citizens of Serbia

22     and Montenegro would go to Bosnia to buy vehicles because those vehicles

23     were the only ones that could be transferred to Belgrade plates and other

24     plates issued in the Republic of Serbia.  And that's how I, like all the

25     other citizens, went to Visegrad, it was a free territory, to buy a car,

Page 3861

 1     and I saw Milan in Visegrad because he put me in touch with some of his

 2     friends, acquaintances, and he showed me several cars, and I did buy one

 3     of those cars.  That was the first time that I saw him in the town of

 4     Visegrad, which looked like there never was a war.  I never saw any

 5     damage to any houses.

 6        Q.   Apart from that, did you have any other contact with Mr. Lukic

 7     during that time period, during the 1990s, after the war?

 8        A.   After the war, apart from what I've just told you, this contact

 9     that I had with him about the purchase of the car, I didn't have any

10     other contacts.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I pass the witness to the Prosecution.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

13        Q.   Sir, my name is Dermot Groome.  I represent the Prosecution, and

14     I'll be asking you some questions here this morning.

15        A.   Pleased to meet you.  Please go ahead.

16        Q.   Just a few questions to begin with respect to your background.

17     You said that you studied maritime tourism and that you also attended the

18     faculty of math and sciences.  Did you ever receive a degree from the

19     faculty?

20        A.   Let me correct you.  At the faculty of math and sciences, I

21     graduated in geography, and geography includes a course in maritime or

22     coastal tourism.  This is what I studied as a post-graduate student, and

23     this is what I specialized.  It is a post-graduate degree, which is lower

24     than the master's degree.  Of course, I graduated from the faculty, and

25     then I further specialized, and my average mark was 9 out of 10.

Page 3862

 1        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you a few questions about your service as a

 2     police officer, and if I could begin with 1992.  Your testimony here

 3     today was that when you received your monthly salary that it could only

 4     be converted to 1 Deutschmark, and it was insufficient to buy a loaf of

 5     bread the following day, and it also seems that it was insufficient to

 6     pay your rent of 40 Deutschmarks.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, it was very difficult.  It was very difficult to pay the

 8     rent.  I had to do some work privately, to chop wood, to do some painting

 9     jobs, as much as I could to make ends meet for my family.  I also got

10     some assistance from my father who lived in the countryside, meat, dairy

11     products, things like that.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, you've told us what you'd done up until

13     1992.  What year did you retire from the police?

14        A.   On the 21st of June, 2005.

15        Q.   And I believe you said that you retired because of an injury you

16     received in a car accident.  Is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct, yes.

18        Q.   And when was that car accident?

19        A.   The accident was on the 28th of December, 2003, at the corner of

20     Mokroluska and Vojaslavalica [phoen] Street in the morning hours, 6.10

21     a.m.

22        Q.   Now, can I ask you just to summarize briefly, what types of

23     positions did you have in the police between 1992 and your retirement in

24     2005?

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I don't know if counsel's got

Page 3863

 1     something specific, but I would object to relevance at this point, and

 2     it's beyond the scope of the direct.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, what's the relevance of this?

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, surely his professional career and

 5     educational background would be matters that would be relevant to his

 6     credibility.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Go ahead.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Sir, again just briefly, if you could tell us the different

10     positions that you held and the type of work you did as a police officer

11     between 1992 and 2005 when you retired.

12        A.   It's not a problem.  I changed a number of posts and let me take

13     them one by one.  I started in the Novi Belgrade, New Belgrade police

14     station as a beat policeman where I covered various sectors, depending on

15     the requirements of the service.  I provided security at the Stari

16     Merkator, the Sava Centre, congress centre, the students' town, and I

17     also performed other duties.  It's sectoral work.  It's similar to

18     patrols where you patrol the whole of New Belgrade.  That's how it was at

19     the time.

20             In 1991, I was transferred from the New Belgrade police station

21     to the Ministry of the Interior.  This is the republican SUP of the

22     Republic of Serbia, in Kneza Milosa Street.  At the beginning, I provided

23     security to republican organs and persons.

24        Q.   It's not so important that we have the specific places that you

25     provided security, but it seems that for most of your police career, you

Page 3864

 1     were engaged in providing security for -- to whomever you were assigned

 2     to protect.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   No, that's not correct.  I merely started telling you all this in

 4     detail, but I can cut to the chase.  So from a beat officer in New

 5     Belgrade, I moved to MUP where I provided security to the National

 6     Assembly in Belgrade, the building itself, and then after I completed my

 7     studies, I move to the city Secretariat of the Interior where I worked as

 8     a plain-clothes inspector in the sector for public law and order.

 9        Q.   And as a plain-clothes officer, did you have any particular type

10     of crime that you were engaged in investigating?

11        A.   Well, I did not investigate crimes.  We dealt with public law and

12     order, and in our sector, in the Belgrade SUP, that had to do with

13     violent conduct, gambling, and prostitution.  So these were the tasks

14     that we were dealing with.

15        Q.   Now, since your retirement, we've heard that you receive a

16     disability pension.  Aside from that disability pension, do you do

17     anything presently to earn income?

18        A.   No, and I couldn't do any work physically, and I also don't have

19     the right to work.  My wife works.  She also has a university degree, and

20     we are able to live a normal life.

21        Q.   Do you know a cafe by the name of Cafe Bellissimo?

22        A.   Yes.  I know Belgrade very well, and I know that cafe Bellissimo.

23        Q.   And is that a cafe that have you any ownership interest in?

24        A.   No, absolutely not.  I don't know why you're asking me this

25     question.

Page 3865

 1        Q.   Now, I want to speak to you a bit about your relationship with

 2     Milan Lukic.  Is it fair to say that have you known Milan Lukic for

 3     approximately 20 years?

 4        A.   I've told you, I've known him since 1987, October 1987, in fact.

 5     We came to students' town in end October, and I've known him all the time

 6     since, but we didn't see each other every day.  We each had our own

 7     lives.  We did see each other often while he was in Belgrade over a year,

 8     a year and a half.

 9        Q.   So that would make it 21 years that you've known Milan Lukic,

10     correct?  1987 to 2008?

11        A.   Something like that.

12        Q.   Would you consider yourself a very close friend of Milan Lukic?

13        A.   Well, at the time when we met at students' town, we were good

14     friends.  I was not his only friend.  He had other friends, but we were

15     good friends as students.  However, in time our meetings became rarer.

16     After he left students' town, you can count on the fingers of one hand

17     the times we met.  You cannot consider somebody a very close friend if

18     you don't see them for 15 years.  You can't call a close friend anyone

19     whom you don't see and visit at home fairly regularly.

20        Q.   And sir, you said that you cannot consider someone a close friend

21     if you don't see them for 15 years.  Is there a 15-year period in your

22     relationship with Mr. Milan Lukic that you did not see him?  Yes or no,

23     if you can answer it with yes or no.

24        A.   I don't think I understood that question.

25        Q.   Well, the statement -- the transcript records you as saying: "You

Page 3866

 1     cannot consider somebody a very close friend if you don't see them for 15

 2     years."  So what I'm asking you, when you said that, was that a reference

 3     to Milan Lukic?  Was there a period of time that you had not seen him for

 4     15 years?

 5        A.   Well, I told you when I saw him last.  Now I would have to

 6     count -- well, you can read in my statement when I saw him last.

 7        Q.   I'm not asking you to do any mathematics in your head.  When is

 8     the most recent time that you have seen Milan Lukic?  When have you most

 9     recently seen him?

10        A.   The last time, it was in Visegrad when I bought the car.  That

11     was the last time.

12        Q.   And what year was that again, please?

13        A.   Well, 1996 or early 1997 when it was possible to import cars from

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina to Serbia.

15        Q.   So between that time and the time that you looked across the

16     courtroom and saw him here today, you had not seen Milan Lukic?

17        A.   I did not see him from that time until today, so from the time

18     when I bought the car in 1996 or 1997, I had not seen him at all.

19        Q.   Did you speak with him during that time period?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you have any difficulty recognizing him here in the

22     courtroom?

23        A.   Well, he's changed.  He's put on quite a lot of weight, and his

24     hair is shorter.  His hair used to be much longer, but the face remained

25     the same.  I was able to recognize him, although he's now much heavier.

Page 3867

 1     As a student, he had longer hair, especially in the back.

 2        Q.   Now, at transcript 10, line 19, when speaking about Djurdjevdan

 3     day, which seems to be why you remember this early May encounter, you

 4     said that you remember that Djurdjevdan day, it's expected that you would

 5     spend it with your family unless something extraordinary happens.  Is

 6     that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's what I said, and I also stressed that I mostly went

 8     to Pljevlja for St. George's Day to attend the feast which was at that

 9     time organised by my uncle as the eldest brother in the family, unless

10     something else happened.  It's a long way away.

11        Q.   Sir --

12        A.   And I sometimes prefer not to go because there were some other

13     events, but I would always have at least a mini-feast in my own home.

14        Q.   Well, can I take it as an indication of the depth of the

15     relationship you had with Milan Lukic in 1992 that you did not attend

16     this important family celebration but instead made a decision to help

17     Milan Lukic that day?

18        A.   Well, it doesn't mean that it was a deep relationship, but if a

19     man, if a friend, your neighbor, your relative, tells you that they had

20     some health problems, it's a humanitarian reason and it's a much stronger

21     reason than some feast because I was not the only family member there.

22     Somebody did come to represent my family in my uncle's house, my father,

23     my sister.  But since his mother was sick, I agreed, and I would not have

24     gone there had it been possible for him to get a car on his own.  There

25     would have been no need for me to go there, but I had to bring the

Page 3868

 1     vehicle back.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, going first now to -- well, let me ask you this.

 3     Mr. Ivetic said in explaining the purpose of your testimony, one of the

 4     purposes of your testimony, said, and this is transcript page 17, line

 5     15:  "We're still explaining -- presenting for the first time the true

 6     and accurate picture of how Milan Lukic came to Visegrad, which has been

 7     so often the subject of Prosecution's various witnesses who claim to have

 8     seen him there earlier."

 9             Is it your evidence that when you went with Mr. Lukic, Milan

10     Lukic, to Visegrad on the 6th of May, that this was the first time that

11     he was returning to Visegrad after his time in Germany and Switzerland?

12        A.   Whether Milan had gone to Visegrad before?  Well, I don't know

13     that.  I only can say that he went there with me on that day and that he

14     remained in the territory of Visegrad as I described it.  Now, as to

15     whether he had been to the territory of Visegrad before, I can't tell

16     you.  He may have, but I can't tell you.  He had just got back from

17     Switzerland, and why would he have gone to Bosnia at all unless he was

18     hard-pressed to do so.  I don't know that, at any rate.  I do know that

19     he remained there on that day when he went with me, and I can't tell you

20     things I don't know.

21        Q.   Well, you describe having numerous conversations can him.  At

22     this -- during this period of time, did he ever say to you, hey, I've

23     been in Bosnia, there's a war going on?  Had he ever discussed with you

24     having been in Bosnia prior to the date that you took him there but after

25     he returned from Europe?

Page 3869

 1        A.   He didn't discuss that with me when he came.  I told you that I

 2     saw him only briefly after he moved abroad.  I remained in the students'

 3     town, and in that period I only saw him very seldom.  We didn't talked

 4     about the war in Bosnia.  We talked about our lives, girls, football,

 5     mostly football.  I love football.  I can talk about football all day

 6     long, and he liked the topic himself.

 7        Q.   But the fact is, you have no recollection of him saying to you,

 8     I've been in Bosnia and I'm asking you to help me return to Bosnia, at

 9     the time he asked you for assistance in finding a car?

10        A.   He didn't tell me that.  We didn't talk about that.  I don't

11     think that he was because he had just come back from Switzerland.  He

12     didn't tell me about having gone to Bosnia.  We did not discuss this

13     topic at all.  The only topic that related to his departure for Bosnia

14     had to do with his mother's illness.  We did not talk about this.  We

15     talked about some casual private affairs of ours.

16        Q.   So it's your belief that the time that you traveled with him to

17     Bosnia is the first time that he was returning to Visegrad since he had

18     been in Europe?

19        A.   I don't know when the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out.  I

20     really don't know the exact date.  When he went abroad, that was a year

21     and a half while we were in the students' hall, he didn't go to Bosnia.

22     I met him once.  I don't know whether he went to Bosnia or not.  I don't

23     know when the war started.  As regards the war in Bosnia, we didn't talk

24     about that at all.  I didn't ask him any questions.  He didn't tell me

25     anything.  I don't know that.  I think he didn't, but I don't know that.

Page 3870

 1        Q.   Sir, the breakout of war in Bosnia was a rather significant event

 2     that was covered in the international media, not simply, I would imagine,

 3     the Yugoslav media.  Are you able to say when the war in Bosnia started?

 4        A.   I really don't know.  As far as I can recall, the war first broke

 5     out in Slovenia, then the Croatia, then in Krajina, then in Bosnia.

 6     There were so many of those events, and I really don't know.  I can't

 7     recall.  I don't want to remember.  I don't like war.  I like it when

 8     people are able to live normally, so I really don't know when the war

 9     broke out in the territory of the former Yugoslavia and most of its

10     parts.  I don't know where -- when the war broke out.  I had my own

11     tasks, my own jobs, I had my private problems, and so on.  I had other

12     stuff to think about.

13        Q.   Could you tell me a year?

14        A.   I don't know when it began.  I don't know when it ended.  I think

15     it ended about 1995, 1996, something like that.  I don't remember those

16     events.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm about to embark on an entirely new

18     area.  I'm not sure when the Chamber was planning on taking a break.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We'll break now.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Sir, just before the break, you testified that you did not recall

25     the year the war started, and I must put it to you plainly:  The

Page 3871

 1     implausibility of you recalling that Milan Lukic had a glass of Coke and

 2     was wearing a suede jacket on the 8th of June 16 years ago and yet be

 3     unable to recall when war broke out in your country.  Do you not agree

 4     that this is rather implausible, that you have such detailed memory about

 5     a fact that most of us would forget but have no recollection about the

 6     year in which the war broke out in your country?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would object.  Asked and answered.

 8     Sorry.  Waiting for the translation.  I would object, asked and answered,

 9     and I believe at this point counsel is making arguments, not --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, I believe the question is perfectly proper,

11     Mr. Ivetic.  Perfectly proper.  I see nothing wrong with it.

12             MR. GROOME:

13        Q.   Sir, do you understand what question I'm putting to you?

14        A.   I understand very well.  I remember the jacket he wore because he

15     used to wear it when he was a student at the students' town, this suede

16     jacket, and as for the beginning of the war in the then-Yugoslavia, how

17     can I know the date?  I lived in Serbia where there was no war.  The war

18     broke out in the territory of Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia.  I

19     remember the war.  I just don't know the date.  After the Zvezda-Dinamo

20     match in Zagreb when the supporters of Zvezda barely got out of there

21     alive, of course I remember there was a war on.  And then soon

22     afterwards, the war in Bosnia began, but I don't remember the date.  I

23     didn't lead the army to remember the date.  I was engaged in different

24     work.  I worked in MUP as a security man.  The war in the territory of a

25     country outside of Serbia was not really my business.

Page 3872

 1        Q.   Sir, you seem to have a very specific memory about this very

 2     infamous football match that took place in Zagreb.  What was the date of

 3     that?

 4        A.   I don't know the date.  I know that it was at the Dinamo stadium

 5     in Zagreb and that Boban hit somebody there.  You can see that video clip

 6     sometimes on TV still today.  I told you, I played football in the

 7     veterans' club.

 8        Q.   I don't challenge your memory about what happened.  What I'm ask

 9     you is, as you sit here today, you do not know the date of that football

10     match, do you?

11        A.   I don't know the date.  I know it was in 1991.

12        Q.   And when you refer to the war taking place in Slovenia and what

13     are now different countries, at the time the war broke out, it was one

14     country, Yugoslavia, your country.  Is that not correct?

15        A.   Well, the war began in Slovenia, and at that time Yugoslavia

16     still existed.  It was still one country.

17        Q.   And you were a police officer in that country in which a war

18     broke out, and you are unable to even tell me the year that the war broke

19     out?

20        A.   Yes, I was a police officer, but of the territory of the Republic

21     of Serbia, and I really don't know what was going on in Slovenia.  I

22     can't remember all that.  The army was involved in the war, or whoever.

23     I can't answer these questions.  I was not in the army, and I was not in

24     those regions.  Perhaps I went through Slovenia once in passing.  I can't

25     tell you things I don't know.

Page 3873

 1        Q.   Sir, you've explained to us why you remember the suede jacket.

 2     What was so memorable about the can of Coca-Cola that Mr. Lukic had that

 3     now 16 years on you have a specific memory of that?

 4        A.   It was not a can of Coca-Cola, but he was always drinking Coke.

 5     He arrived to that establishment before I did, and he had already ordered

 6     a drink and he always drank Coke.  That was something I remember.

 7     Sometimes he went to McDonald's in Belgrade where he sometimes had a

 8     hamburger, but he always had a Coke, inevitably.

 9        Q.   Now, in your statement on page 2, you state:  "We met briefly for

10     a drink the following morning.  We could not stay long because Milan was

11     in a hurry.  He told me he had some Muslim friends in his flat in

12     Belgrade and that his mother was due for medical check-ups."  Do you

13     remember saying that in your statement?

14        A.   I do, I do.

15        Q.   So you recall that he told you that he had some Muslims who were

16     his friends living in his apartment in Belgrade.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Correct, and I understood that's the reason why he called me, to

18     ask me about taking those Muslims to Novi Pazar.  I don't know whether

19     they were from Visegrad or some other town in Bosnia.  In fact, he asked

20     me if they would be safe going to Novi Pazar.

21        Q.   So your recollection is that he was describing Muslim friends

22     from Bosnia.  It may have been Visegrad, or it may have been some other

23     place in Bosnia.  Is that correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   They must have been good friends if he was allowing them to stay

Page 3874

 1     at his apartment with him not there, with him being with you, correct?

 2        A.   Well, they probably knew one another well.  He came to Belgrade

 3     for his mother, and he asked me about taking them to Novi Pazar.  They

 4     must have been good friends if they lived in his apartment, but you have

 5     to ask him.  I cannot tell you whether they were friends or not or how

 6     good friends because I never saw these people.  I don't know who they

 7     are.

 8        Q.   All I'm interested from you, sir, is what you know from your

 9     personal knowledge or what he may have said to you.  So if you don't

10     know, please just explain that, and I'll ask you another question.

11             Now, you've testified that he wanted to bring his mother to get

12     some medical check-ups.  Did he tell you where his mother was having

13     these medical check-ups?

14        A.   No, he did not tell me that.  He just told me he was in a hurry

15     because he had to make it to the medical appointment.  I didn't ask him

16     which hospital.  I thought it was superfluous to ask.  He took her to the

17     doctor.  Where, I don't know.

18        Q.   So from what you're saying now, it seems the medical appointment

19     was on the 8th of June.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  You see, what things are like in the health

21     system of the Republic of Serbia, somebody from Bosnia or Montenegro

22     would get a referral where they live and would travel to Belgrade with

23     that referral.  I don't know what it says, but the referral doesn't say,

24     see the doctor on such and such a date.  I don't know if his mother had a

25     referral or which hospital she was supposed to go to.

Page 3875

 1        Q.   Sir, you met him the morning of the 8th of June, correct?

 2        A.   Correct.  Around 10.00.

 3        Q.   And you just testified that - I'm quoting you - "He just told me

 4     that he was in a hurry because he had to make it to the medical

 5     appointment."  That suggests to me that on the day he was meeting you,

 6     his mother had an appointment scheduled and he need to leave you quickly

 7     to bring her there.  Is that not correct?

 8        A.   Well, he told me he was taking his mother there, that he was in a

 9     rush, and that some Muslims were living in his apartment.  I asked him,

10     what are you doing?  He said, nothing much, I'm in a hurry, and I

11     understood the reason he wanted to see me was to ask me about the safety

12     of those Muslims in his apartment.

13        Q.   Now, being a good friend, did you say to him, what's wrong with

14     your mother, is there anything I can do to help?  Did you inquire about

15     his mother's health?

16        A.   Well, I asked what it was about.  He said, she's in a bad way.

17     He found some acquaintance of an acquaintance who is a doctor.  He was

18     taking her there.  I didn't ask anymore because I'm not a medical man

19     myself.  I had no acquaintances in hospitals, and I assumed he already

20     knew who he was going to see.  I asked her what condition she's in.  She

21     said -- he said, not good, she's ill, she's old, et cetera.

22        Q.   Did he say specifically what illness she had or what her ailment

23     was?

24        A.   No, we didn't talk about that.

25        Q.   Did he tell you the nature of the check-up she was scheduled to

Page 3876

 1     have?

 2        A.   No, we didn't talk about details.  The entire conversation about

 3     his mother was that he brought his mother there, that that's why he was

 4     there, he was in a hurry because of her, and that --

 5        Q.   No need to repeat.  If you could answer my question in a yes or

 6     no, I would appreciate that.  Did his parents ever come to live in

 7     Belgrade?

 8        A.   I don't know that.

 9        Q.   Did he ever tell you that his parents had moved in with him and

10     were living with him in his apartment?

11        A.   I don't know that either.  We did not visit each other at home.

12     We usually met outside, in town, at Cafe Index 10, in students' town

13     while he was there, sometimes at McDonald's, we played football together,

14     and that's all.

15        Q.   Now, sir, on page 1, paragraph 6, of your statement, you say:

16     "He," meaning Milan Lukic, "he told me that he had to go to Visegrad to

17     take his parents out of the war zone."

18             Is that an accurate reflection or statement of what you told the

19     Defence team that was recorded in your statement?

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if I can -- it's more of a way of a

21     suggestion rather than an objection, but if you're going to quote

22     something, it'd be good to quote the original Serbian rather than the

23     translation of the English which gets retranslated into Serbian and it

24     will perhaps provide the witness with a copy of the Serbian original

25     document which you're referring, to Your Honours.

Page 3877

 1             MR. GROOME:  I'm not speaking Serbian.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What do you want him to do?  He doesn't speak

 3     Serbian.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  We have an original document in Serbian.  He's using

 5     the English translation.  If he's going to use an exhibit, present it to

 6     the witness.  It's the witness's own statement.  He's doing something --

 7     put it on the screen, put it on e-court.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Put it on the screen or on the ELMO.

 9             MR. GROOME:  I'm happy to do that, Your Honour.  It seems to me

10     the more appropriate course would be if the witness says he needs it,

11     then certainly, but it seems that if he says I remember I said that, then

12     what's the point of putting up a statement?  So I'd ask that he be

13     allowed to answer whether he remembers saying that, and if he doesn't,

14     then I'll make attempts to get the statement before him.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's have the statement before him in this

16     instance.

17             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 1D 220094 be called up on the

18     screen for the witness.

19        Q.   Sir, there's a screen in front of you.  I believe it's going to

20     be the screen on your right-hand side.  There will be a copy of the

21     statement that you gave to the Defence.  I'm going to ask -- that's also

22     65 ter number 26.  If you need to refer to that, if your recollection is

23     not clear about your statement, then by all means, please look at that.

24             Now, sir, let me ask my question again.  On page 1, the sixth

25     paragraph, you state:  "He told me that he had to go to Visegrad to take

Page 3878

 1     his parents out of the war zone."  Is that correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   To your knowledge, did he ever do that?  Did he ever bring his

 4     parents out of the war zone into Belgrade?

 5        A.   That day when I went with him, he did not do that because he

 6     stayed in Visegrad.  As for the date mentioned, the 9th or the 8th of

 7     June when I saw him in Cafe Index 10, he told me he had brought his

 8     mother.  I didn't see her.  I don't know whether he managed to bring his

 9     parents over, but he told me on that date that he had brought his mother

10     for a medical check-up and that he was in a hurry for that medical

11     check-up.

12        Q.   Sir, the trip that you made down there that you did not go to

13     your family celebration, you rented a car, you drove it down there, the

14     purpose of that trip was for him to bring his parents back out of the war

15     zone, correct?

16        A.   The purpose of that journey was for him to bring back his mother

17     who was ill or his parents, both, and I traveled with him because he was

18     unable to rent a car himself.  I had to rent it for him, and I had to

19     bring the car back.  Otherwise, he would have gone alone.  But since I

20     was the guarantor for the car, I traveled with him.

21        Q.   And now you've testified that he wasn't allowed to return.  So my

22     question to you is, why didn't you just bring his parents back?  You're

23     there.  You're with a car.  You're driving back to Belgrade.  Why didn't

24     you bring his parents back to Belgrade out of the war zone?

25        A.   Here is the answer to your question.  When he emerged from the

Page 3879

 1     police station in uniform, I asked him, should I go fetch your mother?

 2     He said no.  I didn't know where that village was.  The war was already

 3     going on.  I didn't know which parts.  I didn't know whether the army was

 4     present or not, and I couldn't go to his village if I didn't know where

 5     it was.  I would have gone if he could have arranged it.  However, the

 6     policemen told me immediately to get back into my car and that they would

 7     escort me out, and they took him away.  I don't know what for and where,

 8     and they took me back to the border.

 9        Q.   And now you've said that one of the purposes of the trip was to

10     bring his mother up to Belgrade because of her health.  That's the 6th of

11     May.  It's also your evidence that he did not bring his mother up because

12     of medical reasons until the beginning of June, about a month later,

13     correct?

14        A.   He was going to bring her, and that's why we rented a car, and he

15     told me in June that he had brought his mother on the 8th.  On the 8th, I

16     didn't see her, but he told me he had brought his mother the evening

17     before when he gave me a call.

18        Q.   Now, I want to ask you about something you said in direct

19     examination.  The transcript at page 16, line 15, records you as saying,

20     and this is the point in time where you're describing what happens when

21     you arrive at the police station in Visegrad.  Now, the transcript

22     records you as saying:  "I didn't want to get out because I was wearing a

23     different uniform."

24             Can you explain what you meant by that?

25        A.   Well, there was no need for me to go into the police station.  I

Page 3880

 1     was wearing the uniform of the Republic of Serbia.  There was no need for

 2     me to go into the police station because only he was summoned, not I.  I

 3     was waiting in the car.

 4        Q.   But you appreciate that it's different to say there was no need

 5     to go into the police station.  From what you said earlier here today, "I

 6     didn't want to get out..." meaning get out of your car "... because I was

 7     wearing a different uniform."  What might have happened had you gotten

 8     out of the car wearing a police uniform from the Republic of Serbia?

 9        A.   Well, nothing special would have happened, but I was wearing the

10     uniform of the Republic of Serbia, and there was no need for me to go in.

11     Nothing bad would have happened.  They have would have asked me who I

12     was, where I was going.  In fact, as it turned out they were rather kind

13     and decent to me.  They even gave me an escort back, and he was the only

14     one who was summoned to the duty service of the SUP, not I.

15        Q.   Sir, Milan Lukic has previously stated in statements that he

16     received training prior to returning to Visegrad.  Do you know anything

17     about this?

18        A.   I know nothing about that.

19        Q.   With respect to the 7th of June, you say that you had dinner with

20     your kum.  For those of us non-Serbs, am I correct in saying that the kum

21     relationship is one of the strongest bonds that can exist between two

22     Serbian men?

23        A.   Well, the kum relationship is a good, fair relationship in

24     Serbia.

25        Q.   If your kum were called to testify before this Tribunal about

Page 3881

 1     that dinner that you had on the 7th of June, is there any possibility in

 2     your mind that he might be mistaken about who he had dinner with that

 3     night?

 4        A.   I don't think he would be mistaken for a moment because he

 5     remembers the date.  Every year he brings a present to me and my wife.

 6     It's the best friend I have of all times.  I went to primary and

 7     secondary school with him, and he lives in Novi Sad.  It's a really deep,

 8     good relationship.

 9        Q.   I want to ask you about the conversation you had with Milan Lukic

10     when he's asking your advice about how safe it might be to bring his

11     Muslim friends to Novi Pazar.  And the question that I have for you --

12     well, first let me ask you, is there an area in Serbia that actually has

13     a significant Muslim population?

14        A.   Well, in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, there are

15     Muslims in Visegrad, and otherwise, there are Muslims in the Raska

16     district in Tutin and Sjenica and Novi Pazar.

17        Q.   How about Sandzak area?

18        A.   Right, right.  I omitted that.  Part of Sandzak encompasses

19     Tutin.  Sandzak also covers a part of Montenegro, Pljevlja, Sjenica,

20     Visegrad, and Gorazde, as well, as well as some towns in Serbia like

21     Tutin and Sjenica.

22        Q.   So am I correct in saying that the Sandzak area, the part that is

23     in Serbia, has a significant Muslim population?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Where is Novi Pazar in relation to Sandzak, the Sandzak area?

Page 3882

 1     Would it be considered part of the Sandzak area?

 2        A.   I don't think so.

 3        Q.   How far away --

 4        A.   The Raska district, yes.  From Belgrade, it's 300 kilometers.

 5        Q.   How far from the Sandzak area is Novi Pazar?

 6        A.   Well, I really couldn't tell you precisely.  I don't have a map

 7     before me.  I was never really that interested to measure how far Sandzak

 8     stretches in the territory of Serbia.  It's like the Pester Plateau, like

 9     Backa, like Banat regions.  I had never any reason to look closely at

10     Sandzak and measure it.

11        Q.   And when you received your geography degree, did you study the

12     geography of your own country, or was it of other lands?

13        A.   The entire world geography.

14        Q.   Now, it's your evidence that once Milan Lukic arrived in

15     Belgrade, he called you up and asked you whether it would be safe to take

16     Muslims down to Novi Pazar in Serbia, correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   And he never called you from Visegrad to ask you, is it safe to

19     transport Muslims through Serbia to get from Visegrad to Belgrade, did

20     he?

21        A.   No.  That night after he remained in the Visegrad police station,

22     he did not contact me.  The first time that he contacted me, well, I

23     don't know where it was from because I don't have caller ID.  He asked me

24     if we could meet at the students' town.  I did not accept that because I

25     had other obligations.

Page 3883

 1        Q.   But it's your understanding that he called you after he arrived

 2     in Belgrade on the night of 7th, correct?

 3        A.   Not on the 27th.  It was on the 7th in the evening for us to

 4     meet.  We didn't meet then.  I don't know when he had arrived in

 5     Belgrade.  He merely call me then, and I even don't know where he called

 6     me from.  He called me at my home phone, asking me if we could meet there

 7     in Belgrade.  I don't know what phone number he called me from.

 8        Q.   But sir, my next question to you is, am I not correct in saying

 9     that the distance from the Bosnian border -- if a person was traveling

10     from Visegrad to Belgrade, the distance from the Bosnian border to

11     Belgrade is about the same distance in Serbia as it would be from

12     Belgrade to Novi Pazar?

13        A.   Approximately, yes.  Something like that.  I never measure the

14     mileage.  I only know how long it takes me to get to Pljevlja because I

15     go there to visit my father, 367 kilometers.  Now, as to Novi Pazar, I

16     really can't tell you.  I went there twice.

17        Q.   Sir, how many hours did it take you to drive from Belgrade to the

18     Bosnian border when you were driving to Visegrad?

19        A.   Well, the drive to Visegrad when we went there, it took us about

20     five hours.

21        Q.   And yet, he didn't ask you your advice on that 5-hour trip with

22     Muslims through Serbia.  It was only a request made with respect to the

23     trip between Belgrade and Novi Pazar, correct?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  Misstates the testimony.

25     He said five hours from Belgrade to Visegrad.

Page 3884

 1             MR. GROOME:  If I have, I apologize.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just add, you asked me

 3     about our drive to Visegrad.  That's five hours, but we stopped at the

 4     Ovcar-Kablar Gorge.  It depends on the car and the driver.  You can take

 5     less.  If I drive alone, it's a great road, and you can drive there in

 6     three and a half hours.  It's a 300-kilometer trip.  It depends on the

 7     car and on the driver and on the way you drive, so --

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Sir, is it your evidence that the shortest amount of time it

10     would take to get from Belgrade to Visegrad is three and a half hours?

11        A.   Three and a half, four hours, if you have a good car, I think you

12     can do it.  But if you take breaks, then it's a different story.  I

13     sometimes take seven hours instead of four hours to do a drive if I stop,

14     if I'm not in a hurry, things like that.

15        Q.   But going back to my original question to you, Milan Lukic didn't

16     call you about whether it was safe to bring Muslims from Visegrad to

17     Belgrade but only from Belgrade to Novi Pazar, correct?

18        A.   He told me that Muslims were in the apartment, and he asked me

19     whether it was safe to take them to Novi Pazar.  He didn't ask me

20     anything of the sort.  He merely said that they were in his apartment and

21     that -- and asked me whether it was safe to go there to Novi Pazar, and I

22     said that it was absolutely safe for them in the territory of the

23     Republic of Serbia.

24        Q.   Sir, I want to ask you how it was you came to testify in this

25     case.  Who first contacted you about testifying in this case?

Page 3885

 1        A.   Let me give you an answer right away.  From the Defence team of

 2     Milan Lukic, it was Mr. Mihailo Lakcevic, an attorney at law.  He asked

 3     me whether I would be prepared to make a statement about some

 4     circumstances that I recall that involve Milan Lukic from the student

 5     days and about our encounters.  And I said it was not a problem, but I

 6     did not know much about that.  I did not know much about him because it

 7     was a brief period of time and we hadn't met since, and I really don't

 8     know anything about him apart from what -- apart from what I told you.

 9        Q.   Who first mentioned the dates, June 7th, June 8th, June 10th?

10     Who first mentioned those dates, you or Mr. Lakcevic?

11        A.   Mr. Lakcevic did not mention any dates in the course of our

12     conversation.  He asked me, do you know him, how do you know him, from

13     what area, and I told him, I knew him from when he came back from

14     Switzerland, I knew the date when we drove down there because of St.

15     George's Day, because it's a big feast.  And I remember that other day

16     when he called me, and I found it peculiar that he managed to take his

17     mother away from the war zone.  I was happy about that.  Lakcevic did not

18     ask me anything.  He did not mention any dates.  He merely asked me what

19     I knew.

20        Q.   If he didn't mention any dates, what was said that made you

21     realize, oh, June 7th, I got the call, June 8th, we met, June 9th, I know

22     what I did, I know what he did, June 10th.  What did Mr. Lakcevic say

23     that made you realize that you remembered something that happened on the

24     7th of June, 1992?

25        A.   Well, those were the dates when I saw him, up until the end of

Page 3886

 1     the war, up until the time when I went there to get the car, I didn't

 2     know what was going on with him.  I remember this because those dates are

 3     very striking, and they stuck in my mind.  I knew that I went to Bosnia

 4     to take the car and I know that it was the 7th when I had this

 5     celebration with my wife, and I didn't want to see him, although I felt

 6     sorry for him because he had come there.

 7        Q.   Sir, is it your evidence that you were simply asked, when did you

 8     see Milan Lukic in 1992, and it was you that said, well, I saw him on the

 9     6th of May and I saw him on the 8th of June.  It was you that volunteered

10     the dates.

11        A.   Lakcevic asked me.  He told me that he was a lawyer on the

12     Defence team, and he asked me what I knew about him:  Did you socialize

13     with him, to what extent?  And the only thing I recall was this:  This

14     was a striking thing.  He went there, and I felt sorry for him for having

15     to stay there, and he was in a bad way, and --

16        Q.   Sir, we'll move quicker if you don't repeat evidence you've

17     already given.  I'm just interested in, who's the first person who

18     mentioned a date?  And it seems that your evidence is that you are the

19     first person to mention a date.  Is that correct?

20        A.   I mentioned the dates because I knew them.  Lakcevic didn't know

21     when it was that I saw them.  Of course it was those dates.  That's how

22     it was.

23        Q.   Now, I want to move to a different area.  You have testified as

24     to Milan Lukic's good character, correct?

25        A.   Yes, to the best of my knowledge of him from our student days.

Page 3887

 1        Q.   And you've stated on direct examination, pages 7 and 8, that he's

 2     a paragon of gentlemanly behavior and that you never saw any trace of

 3     intolerance in him.  Am I correctly summarizing your evidence?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Is it your evidence that he is not the type of person who is

 6     capable of committing the crimes for which he's charged?

 7        A.   Looking at him from the student days, from what I knew about him

 8     from Studenski Grad, I could not imagine that he did that.  I only know

 9     that he is indicted from the news media.  I really don't know anything

10     about the charges, but from based on what I know about him from our

11     student days, he did not look like a person who could do that.  I have no

12     internet, no computer, although it may sound strange to you.

13        Q.   I want to challenge your assessment of his character, and I want

14     to do it first with an exhibit that is now in evidence as P 148, and it

15     is notes taken by a Serbian official during an interview of Milan Lukic

16     on the 26th of October, 1992.  Those notes record Milan Lukic as

17     stating:  "I personally liquidated many Muslims."

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  The witness -- this is an

20     improper question.  Where's the foundation for this witness knowing about

21     the statements that are alleged to have been made to the police

22     individual?  It relates to a time period he says he doesn't know Milan

23     Lukic.  I don't understand what the Prosecution thinks they can obtain

24     from this witness by presenting what they claim to be Milan Lukic's words

25     to him.  It's a matter that we have objected to in the past and we'll

Page 3888

 1     continue to object to as to that alleged statement.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But you have put his character in issue, and I

 3     understand the Prosecutor to be putting this statement to the witness in

 4     that regard.

 5             Proceed, Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm not suggesting that you knew what he said to the Serbian

 8     official.  What I am suggesting to you that -- is had you known, had you

 9     been aware that he said this in October 1992, you would not be sitting

10     here today attesting to his character.  Is that correct, or would you

11     still maintain that he has -- a man of good character?

12        A.   I've told you that I'm speaking about his character up to 1989.

13     That was the time when I knew him, at the time when we were at the

14     students' town.  When he left for Germany, when he left for Bosnia, we

15     didn't socialize, so I didn't know what kind of a person he was at that

16     time.  If he had been such a person, I would never have come here to

17     testify, and I have to say that it is my honour and my obligation to

18     provide you with some dates that I'm aware of.  I'm just telling you

19     about his character, his honour.

20        Q.   Sir, I just want to put one more excerpt before you, and this

21     is an excerpt that appeared in a popular Serbian magazine named Duga

22     during this time period in which Milan Lukic gave an interview.  Are you

23     familiar with --

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  [Microphone not activated].

Page 3889

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You're on your feet, so I'm asking you to --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I'm was going to wait for the question to be

 3     answered.  I just want to make sure that I have an opportunity to object

 4     to it.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Are you familiar with the news magazine, Duga, a popular magazine

 7     in Serbia?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I may object.  We're bringing up the

 9     Duga article again.  We've objected to this in the past.  It is a -- if

10     they're going to be relying on this document, which I think they are

11     since it's listed as a document they want to use for cross-examine with

12     this witness, I think I have to object.  The purported interview, we

13     don't know what date it was published, we don't have an official

14     publication of it.  We have the article that shifts from first person to

15     third person, et cetera.  It's a document that even the Prosecution as

16     recently as a few weeks ago brought some question about when we raised it

17     in relation to something else, so I think it's an improper document.

18     This particular questions by itself is innocuous, but if it goes towards

19     establishing some basis for trying to bring in the Duga article as an

20     exhibit in this case from which the truth of the matter asserted therein

21     is supposed to be determined, I would strenuously object.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We haven't heard the question yet.  What's the

23     question in relation to the Duga?

24             MR. GROOME:  I want to show the witness the article.  I have both

25     the original B/C/S as well as the translation, and I want to draw his

Page 3890

 1     attention to a quote -- a purported quote of Milan Lukic and then ask him

 2     whether this affects his assessment of Mr. Lukic's character.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that ERN 06357586, 0635790.

 5        Q.   Sir, you will see on the screen in front of you an article

 6     published in Duga magazine.  I'm going to ask that the English -- the

 7     excerpt that I want to refer to is from page 9 of the English

 8     translation, and on the B/C/S original, I would ask that we go to the

 9     page that has page 77 at the bottom right-hand corner.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, who is the article by?

11             MR. GROOME:  Just a second, Your Honour.  Let me just see.

12             MR. IVETIC:  On that point, Your Honour, I would also add to the

13     objection that this is essentially having the Prosecution do what we were

14     not allowed to, which is to use statements authored by third parties,

15     presenting them to witnesses and having them testify as to it.  That's

16     precisely what we were told not to do with signed sworn statements, not

17     newspapers articles, so I would object as to fair play and equity of arms

18     and the manner in which we had to proceed in our case, that the same

19     rules ought to be applied to the Prosecution as a way of trying to go

20     around the Court's prior rules.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we're really mixing apples and oranges

22     here.  This is not attempting to introduce a statement of a third party.

23     It's putting to the witness a published media article which challenges

24     his assessment that Mr. Milan Lukic is the person of a type of character

25     that is incapable of committing the crimes with which he's charged.  It's

Page 3891

 1     perfectly proper for me to test the accuracy of his knowledge of his

 2     general reputation in the community and with respect to that, this is an

 3     article, we don't know the exact date.  We are investigating that, but it

 4     was published contemporaneously with these events, and it has quotes of

 5     Milan Lukic that were widely distributed among the public in Serbia.  And

 6     I'm sorry, Your Honour, it was written by a person by the name of

 7     Radislav Matic.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And published in what?

 9             MR. GROOME:  The name of that magazine is Duga.  It's an

10     equivalent to Time magazine or Newsweek magazine.

11             MR. DIECKMANN:  Your Honours, just for the record, we completely

12     join the objections of Defence for the co-accused.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And again, Your Honours, I don't know how they can

14     claim it was done contemporaneously when they don't know the date.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me see the statement this is attributed to

17     Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that with respect to the B/C/S, it's the

19     third column, the right-hand column, and it's in the bottom section

20     there, and with respect to the English, it's on page 9 of the English

21     translation, and it is -- if you see where it says "You see the first

22     thing ...", that paragraph, there is a sentence that is underlined.  It

23     begins with "There is no way ..."

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             MR. IVETIC:  I would ask that he put to the witness the entire

Page 3892

 1     quotation because they're taking it halfway out of context, which I

 2     believe is inappropriate.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, formulate your objection again with

 5     greater precision.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I will try, Your Honours.  We have this alleged

 7     article, for which we don't have the publication date.  Essentially, it

 8     is a written statement by this -- they've now identified Mr. Matkovic,

 9     who is out of court, is not here.  They're presenting the document which

10     has not been admitted into evidence up until today's date.  They are

11     presenting this to present this as a statement of Milan Lukic as this

12     witness, this Matkovic has said, he said X, Y, and Z.

13             During the Prosecution's case in chief, we presented signed,

14     sworn statements under oath and under penalty of perjury produced by this

15     Office of the Prosecutor, produced by witnesses who were Prosecution

16     witnesses, evidence by Prosecution investigators who were Prosecution

17     witnesses.  When we tried to present those documents that were quite

18     explicit in terms of doing the exact same thing Mr. Groome is trying to

19     do with this article, putting it to the witness to challenge their

20     testimony as to Milan Lukic's acts, deeds, and character, we were told by

21     the Trial Chamber we could not.  In fact, on the objection of Mr. Groome,

22     we were denied that opportunity.  And therefore now we have a certain

23     number of the Prosecution's witnesses on our witness list that we have

24     had to call as --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel, please slow down for the interpreters.

Page 3893

 1             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... the written

 2     statement, just to have them verify the written statement that go against

 3     our 45-witness quota.  I believe --

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Is this in the form of a statement, the article?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  It is not, but I believe it amounts to the same

 6     thing.  It's even weaker than a statement.  It's not under oath, it's not

 7     delineated as to who is saying what, and they're trying to introduce it

 8     now without knowing when it was published, without having the author here

 9     to say when it was published, how it was undertaken, and they're trying

10     to present it in the same manner that we tried to use sworn statements,

11     and I think if that manner is not good enough for a sworn statement, it

12     definitely ought not to be good enough for this, and I take issue with

13     Mr. Groome testifying as a witness as he is so apt to do in this case

14     about what Duga magazine is.  Let's bring someone in, let's find out what

15     the magazine is, what its reputation is, who its publishers are, et

16     cetera, if we really want to go down that road.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think the problem here is that

19     we're talking about a very narrow, a very specific exception to hearsay,

20     to the hearsay rule.  If this was an unpublished notes or statement or

21     any other document by this journalist, of course I would not be allowed

22     to put it to this witness, but it's not.  It's something that is

23     published, and this witness has testified as to Mr. Lukic's good

24     character.  I brought with me what's considered a -- I think my American

25     colleagues will recognize it as a very authoritative source on evidence,

Page 3894

 1     and it's McCormick's on Evidence.  If I might, if the Chamber -- I don't

 2     want to insult the Chamber, but if the Chamber would find it helpful, I'd

 3     be willing to read the paragraph that deals precisely with this type of

 4     evidence.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, again, they don't have a date of

 6     publication.  They cannot prove it was published.  They don't have a

 7     certificate of publication.  They don't have the author to say it was

 8     published.  They have a document that they are presenting, a document out

 9     of context.  They don't have the original newspaper, et cetera.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's authenticity you are questioning?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Authenticity and relevance and admissibility, yes.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would submit with respect to the

13     authenticity argument, the Chamber's able to look at the copy of the

14     document and assess for itself.  It has pictures.  It has -- with respect

15     to the context, if you'll read the context, it gives some sense of the

16     time period.  It's my belief that it was published in November of 1992.

17     Again, it is a matter that I'm still investigating, but I believe there's

18     nothing improper with putting the newspaper article to this witness to

19     test or to challenge his assessment of Mr. Lukic's credibility or

20     character.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann?

22             MR. DIECKMANN:  Just to clarify our objection, we join the

23     objection of the Milan Lukic team regarding authenticity, the relevance,

24     and the admissibility of this document.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What is it you wanted to read from McCormick?

Page 3895

 1             MR. GROOME:  It's McCormick on Evidence.  Again, Your Honour, I

 2     don't mean to insult the Chamber.  It's a paragraph, if the Chamber

 3     would -- I refreshed my memory about the law in this area before today,

 4     so I'm happy to read it if the Chamber finds --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I want to hear it.

 6             MR. GROOME:  This is page 348 of McCormick's, it's also section

 7     191 for people with other editions.

 8             "Ordinarily if the defendant choses to -- "

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down when

10     reading for interpretation.  Thank you.

11             MR. GROOME:  Yes.

12             "Ordinarily, if the defendant chooses to inject his character

13     into the trial in this sense, he does so by producing witnesses to

14     testify to his good character.  By relating a personal history supportive

15     of good character, however, the defendant may achieve the same result.

16     Whatever the method, once the defendant gives evidence of pertinent

17     character traits to show that he is not guilty, his claim of possession

18     of these traits and only these traits is open to rebuttal by

19     cross-examination or direct testimony of Prosecution witnesses.

20             "The Prosecution may cross-examine a witness who has testified to

21     the accused's reputation in order to probe the witness's knowledge of the

22     community opinion, not only generally, but specifically as to whether the

23     witness has heard that the defendant has committed particular prior

24     criminal acts that conflict with the reputation vouched for on direct

25     examination.  Likewise, if a witness gives his opinion of defendant's

Page 3896

 1     character, then the Prosecution can allude to pertinent bad acts by

 2     asking whether the witness knew of these matters in forming his opinion."

 3             Your Honour, the 65 ter summary of this witness clearly

 4     identifies the witness as a character witness.  I believe evidence has

 5     been led that clearly --

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's not in issue.  I mean, if he puts the

 7     character of the accused in issue, then clearly, you can rebut it.

 8     That's not the question here.  The question is whether this particular

 9     piece of evidence that you are seeking to use to rebut it is admissible.

10     Of course you're entitled to rebut it, but the question is whether this

11     particular piece of evidence is admissible.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Chamber has decided not to allow the

14     particular question.

15             MR. GROOME:

16        Q.   Sir, I want to then move on to another area.  You have a number

17     of criminal cases before the courts of Serbia.  Is that not correct?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  If we're going to be doing

19     the same thing that Mr. Groome is doing with the witnesses for Mr. Cepic

20     for the defence of Sredoje Lukic, if he has some --

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What are you objecting to now?  I mean, he's

22     asking him about cases that he has before the courts.

23             MR. IVETIC:  He's asking about a specific type of cases, Your

24     Honour, if he says criminal.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, you have to wait and see.

Page 3897

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  Okay.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Mr. Markovic, do you want me to repeat the question, or did you

 4     hear it?

 5        A.   I heard the question.  In the territory of Serbia, among the

 6     court cases that I had was the one involving the traffic accident.  I was

 7     defended by Mr. Cepic, attorney at law.  The other two cases are still at

 8     the stage of trial or examination, and it doesn't mean that the

 9     allegations are proven.  Any criminal to meet me in the street, well, I'm

10     retired now.  It doesn't mean that these cases have been proven, but at

11     any rate, this is all in Serbia and it's not relevant for this.

12        Q.   Sir, I fully agree with you that until a judgement is entered

13     against you, you are presumed to be innocent.  Nevertheless, I do want to

14     ask you some questions.  Now, I want to respect your right not to

15     incriminate yourself with respect to any pending case here, so I'm going

16     to ask you a few precisely focussed questions that will not require you

17     to say anything that can be used against you in any of the pending

18     matters, okay?  And I'd ask you if I talk about a matter that is still

19     pending, please let me know that it is pending because it is not

20     completely clear to me which cases are closed and which cases are still

21     spending.

22             The first case I want to talk about is an indictment that you

23     have against you that was issued in 20th of March, this year.  Do you

24     know the indictment that I'm speaking about?

25             MR. IVETIC:  What's the question?

Page 3898

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   Do you know the indictment that I am speaking about?

 3        A.   I don't know.  You have to tell me.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  We are now embarking on an area of questioning that

12     I must strenuously object to.  We've now heard that it's an indictment,

13     that it's not any type of judgement.  We've heard that it's for assault.

14     Under the rules of every other legal jurisdiction that I've ever been

15     licensed to practice in front of, the only types of crimes that can be

16     raised or any types of criminal that can be raised against a witness to

17     test their credibility are those going towards crimes of dishonesty.

18     This is not the type of proceeding that can be brought to judge and

19     assess the credibility of a witness, and therefore it is improper.

20     Mr. Groome knows that.  He's from the same national jurisdiction I'm

21     from.  He knows that.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Never mind the national jurisdiction.

23     Mr. Groome, what are you hoping to achieve by eliciting this kind of

24     evidence if the case has not yet reached the stage of a decision on guilt

25     or innocence?  What is it that you are hoping the Trial Chamber will draw

Page 3899

 1     from this?  What can we properly draw from this kind of evidence?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, under 90(H) I'm required to put these

 3     allegations or any allegations I want to seek to have the Chamber rely on

 4     to the witness.  The pending cases, as far as I can tell, are in their

 5     last stages of resolution.  It is quite possible that before you conclude

 6     the evidence in this case that the Prosecution in his rebuttal case will

 7     be introducing certificates of conviction.  It seems to me that it's --

 8     what I'm -- I should be doing at this stage is simply put the allegation,

 9     allow this man to either say, that is me, that is not my case, and then

10     if it comes to pass that before the evidence in this case is concluded

11     that in the rebuttal I'm able to produce a certificate of conviction,

12     then I will have fulfilled my obligation under 90 (H) to actually put it

13     to the man what it is that he had -- the crime.  It's not my intention to

14     ask him to make any denial, to make any statement about that but simply

15     confirm the case that is pending against him.

16             And Your Honour, I would also just say, Mr. Markovic has

17     expressed his desire not to do this in public.  I have no objection to,

18     at least with respect to the pending cases, handling the matter in closed

19     session.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So if I understand you, then, you don't have

21     specific definite information now as to whether these cases have reached

22     a verdict, but you may have that later.

23             MR. GROOME:  I have information that there is a judgement in one

24     of them, Your Honour.  The other two are pending and are in the courts

25     now, and are -- it is quite possible that they could be resolved prior to

Page 3900

 1     the conclusion of this case.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You have information that there's a judgement in

 3     one.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, you can put that one.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, I was going to put that one as well as the

 7     other ones, as well, Your Honour.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would only add --

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there is one other relevant piece of

11     information I'd like to provide the Chamber, but I think we can do it in

12     private.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I'll try to be brief.  I find it wholly

16     inconsistent for Mr. Groome on the one hand to wave McCormick's and then

17     not five minutes later to seek for material to be brought into this case

18     that is explicitly prohibited by McCormick's in the same rules that he

19     has so valiantly tried to push for.

20             Again, I submit that this type of act which is a -- if I read --

21     reading the indictment, it appears to be a misdemeanor, a misdemeanor

22     that does not relate to any acts of dishonesty, cannot even, if there is

23     a conviction, be used to try to impeach a witness.  It goes against the

24     very nature of due process.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That is not relevant.  Here it is a matter of

Page 3901

 1     the weight that we attach to it.  We are not governed --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If you cannot consider it, it does matter.  That --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No.  There is nothing prohibiting us from not

 4     considering it.  It goes to weight.  Stop citing national rules of

 5     evidence.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I apologize, Your Honour, but it's been my

 7     experience in this very same Tribunal that that type of evidence is not

 8     available, but if you rule, you rule.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In my view, he can put to the witness the case

10     in which there is a conviction and should not put the others.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, may I say just one other thing in

12     private session.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. GROOME:  If that's Your Honour's ruling.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3902











11  Pages 3902-3906 redacted. Private session.















Page 3907

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours, for the opportunity.

21     Mr. Groome has proffered this document that is -- it's a two-part

22     document.  It's an official not of an interview of the witness conducted

23     by the MUP of Serbia and an interview of another party to those

24     proceedings that are not subject to a conviction.

25             Mr. Groome stated to Your Honours and represented to Your Honours

Page 3908

 1     that this was being presented for the purposes of confronting the witness

 2     with a contradiction as to his ownership in a cafe.  Albeit hastily, I

 3     have looked through the transcript and Mr. Groome's cross-examination,

 4     and the only reference I see is at page 27, lines 11 through 15, talking

 5     about a cafe.  That cafe that Mr. Groome asked about is not to be found

 6     anywhere in either the B/C/S original nor the English translation of the

 7     statement that Mr. Groome is now presenting to be used with this witness

 8     for that purpose.  I would therefore object because it cannot be used for

 9     that way if he hasn't asked him anything about it.

10             Secondly, I have a problem with the translation which Mr. Groome

11     is relying upon.  It states it is a draft translation.  It won't read who

12     it's done by, but it appears to be done by the Office of the Prosecutor

13     and the problem that I have --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Would counsel kindly slow down, please, for the

15     interpreters and enunciate.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Slow down, Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I will, Your Honour.  The problem that I have with

18     the statement is that on page 1 of the English which appears at, I

19     believe, page 2 of the B/C/S, we have the last full paragraph where it

20     indicates another location, not this cafe that Mr. Groome has asked

21     about, but another location and in parentheses it says Markovic's place

22     in Bulic.  The problem I have with this, Your Honour, that phrase,

23     Markovic's place in Bulic, is not to be found anywhere in the B/C/S

24     original.  So I submit to you either Mr. Groome is presenting faulty

25     evidence to you or we need to call the Prosecutor as a witness to

Page 3909

 1     determine what this information is based upon because again it's not in

 2     the B/C/S original at all.  So that would be another grounds for

 3     objecting to the use and presentation of this statement.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, since you're appearing before us and

 5     will quite frequently be making submissions, please note what the

 6     interpreter said.  It's on the transcript.  Would counsel kindly slow

 7     down for the interpreters and enunciate.  So it's not just the speed.

 8     It's the enunciation of the words.  You tend to, I think, bite up your

 9     words or to chew them, and they get lost.

10             MR. IVETIC:  And I apologize to Your Honours and the translators.

11     I tried very hard during the direct examination to speak slowly and

12     enunciate and it's sometimes easier when I have a game plan as opposed to

13     when I'm speaking off the cuff, as it were, based upon documents I'm just

14     reviewing for the first time in open court.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I must first say before I deal with the

17     substance that it is very unfortunate that this Court now is being used

18     regularly as a venue on unsubstantiated slander.  I've just being accused

19     of falsifying evidence and possibly becoming a witness.  I assure --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I didn't understand Mr. Ivetic to be saying

21     that, Mr. Groome.

22             MR. GROOME:  Well, Your Honour, if you would give me a moment,

23     because I think I've tolerated this about as much as any advocate should

24     have to tolerate it.

25             "So I submit to you that either Mr. Groome is presenting faulty

Page 3910

 1     evidence to you or we need to call the Prosecutor as a witness to

 2     determine what this information is based upon."  That's at 70, line 11.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Finish the quotation.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Faulty evidence there I take to mean evidence

 5     that is subject to objection.  I don't think it means that --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah, and Your Honours, if you finish the sentence,

 7     I'm specifically talking about what's not in the B/C/S original.  That's

 8     what I'm limiting myself, to and show me where it is in the B/C/S

 9     original and I'll withdraw the objection, but it's not there.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let's proceed.  Since we have it

11     clarified, Mr. Groome, there's no suggestion that you were presenting

12     false evidence.

13             MR. GROOME:  Just for an explanation of -- we still are not in

14     possession of a 65 ter witness list of the Defence.  We learned these

15     names last Thursday.  We attempted to get information, and we had

16     translators working over the weekend, so if they are not up to the

17     standard that Mr. Ivetic would require, there are two things that can be

18     done.  Please give us a list of the witnesses so that we can begin our

19     preparations; and secondly, I am happy any time there's a dispute over

20     translation to sit down with Defence counsel and attempt to resolve it.

21     But I suspect that as long as we're being given such short notice about

22     the schedule for which the witnesses are called, there will be a

23     reoccurring problem of having draft translations that are not as precise

24     and accurate as CLSS translations.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3911

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, your 65 ter list has still not been

 2     presented.

 3             MR. ALARID:  We filed our 65 ter list -- what date?  -- 19th of

 4     November, Your Honour, and Mr. Markovic was tendered as part of the alibi

 5     submissions and his ID number was on the original statement presented to

 6     the Prosecution, so we would assume they knew exactly who he was.  And

 7     he's had it since the 7th of July, 2008, regarding this witness,

 8     according to the e-mail that we have with the English and B/C/S

 9     translations attached in PDF format.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, are you speaking of wider list that

11     was presented by the Defence or another list?

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The 65 ter list that was

13     submitted, I forget the exact date, was rejected by the Chamber.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             MR. GROOME:  And it stands with over 90 witnesses, Your Honour.

16     The Chamber -- I was going to raise it with the Chamber tomorrow, but if

17     it's convenient I'll raiser it now, is that --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We don't want to digress too much from the

19     point, but we come back to that because the Chamber rejected it and

20     ordered you to present a more abbreviated list, and that is what has not

21     been presented.

22             MR. ALARID:  And the thing is, just with this witness, Your

23     Honour, not to be too far afield, we would submit that this witness was

24     notified well in advance of this.  Like I said, we believe the statement

25     with the personal ID number was back in July, so the particular

Page 3912

 1     allegation with regards to the OTP, I don't think would be relevant to

 2     this witness anyway.  We are attempting to pare it down, and that's what

 3     we've been doing, and Your Honour, that's why we traveled to the region

 4     even trying to do that further because we think the original list was

 5     submitted for notice purposes as much as anything because we know we have

 6     to get everything in at the front side.  So we would consider it

 7     overinclusive from that standpoint, but you know, we are taking to heart

 8     the Court's requirements because we think the case should be pared down

 9     as well.  We're just doing some of our due diligence as we're moving

10     along, Your Honour.

11             Yeah, and the Thursday deadline, we believe we complied with.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the problem for the Prosecutor is that

13     over the recess the Prosecution has to prepare for 45 witness that

14     they're not required until the 5th of January to come and tell you that

15     they're not calling.  I believe that's prejudicial to the Prosecution.

16     It also is at a tremendous waste of resources.  I believe they should be

17     required to prior to the recess to at least let us know who are the 45

18     witnesses on their witness list so we can begin adequate preparations and

19     not waste --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I agree.

21             MR. IVETIC:  How does this affect this witness?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We have digressed.  We'll come back and deal

23     with that matter tomorrow.  Now, where are we on this point?  Mr. Groome,

24     did you reply to the point made by Mr. Ivetic?

25             MR. GROOME:  I'm not sure which point, Your Honour.  Perhaps I

Page 3913

 1     got lost in the digression.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Remember you had wanted to submit a statement

 3     and he objected to the statement of the witness.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe the Chamber has

 5     indicated that it will rule on that.  Mr. Ivetic is correct that I used

 6     the name of a cafe which may be different from this, so I would seek

 7     to -- that's an inadvertent error.  Let me put to the gentleman, does he

 8     have an ownership in any bar.  I put a specific reference to it.  If he

 9     says he has no ownership interest in any bar, then I believe the

10     statement is very relevant.  If he says I do and I have a -- then I

11     believe my introduction of the statement is no longer relevant, and I'll

12     withdraw my attempt to work with it.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, we'll proceed that way.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, please call the witness.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just while we're waiting for the

17     witness to be brought in, I just want to say what I intend to do with

18     respect to the marked for identification is simply show that to the

19     witness and ask him, does he recognize that as the indictment that's

20     pending against him.  It seems to me without doing that, the whole

21     purpose of having it marked for identification seems to be lost.  I'll

22     ask no additional questions other than --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It would remain marked for identification?

24             MR. GROOME:  It would remain marked for identification.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 3914

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask that you now be shown what's been marked

 4     for identification as P 206.  I'm not going to ask you any other

 5     questions about it other than to ask you, is this the indictment that's

 6     pending against you.

 7             MR. GROOME:  In respect of Mr. Markovic's wishes, I'd ask that we

 8     go into private session for this point unless the Chamber feels that it

 9     should be done in public.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3915











11  Pages 3915-3918 redacted. Private session.















Page 3919

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   Sir, you've mentioned that you were in an accident in 2003.  Have

23     you been convicted of a crime arising out of what you call an accident?

24             MR. IVETIC:  And for the record, Your Honour, we still object

25     that the type of the crime that is at issue would not be one that would

Page 3920

 1     rise to a level of attacking the credibility of the witness.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yeah, but, it's a matter of weight that we

 3     attach to it.  Please answer the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was merely convicted of that

 5     crime which was -- which had to do with traffic safety because of the

 6     crash in which I was involved in December 2007, and that was brought to

 7     completion before the 5th Municipal Court in Belgrade.  I have no other

 8     convictions as far as I'm concerned.

 9             MR. GROOME:

10        Q.   But sir, the underlying conduct that you were convicted of is

11     that you were driving while drunk and you drove into a fuel tanker.  Is

12     that not correct?

13        A.   I was very tired that evening, and I fell asleep at the wheel.  I

14     had passengers in the car.  As far as alcohol is concerned, I had two

15     glasses.  I don't know what the percentage was because I was unconscious

16     for several hours in hospital, and I don't recall the crash itself.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, you have now exceeded the time used

18     in examination-in-chief, and you must bring your cross-examination to a

19     close.

20             MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that the witness be shown 06454752,

21     06454762.

22        Q.   Sir, while that is being brought up so you can take a look at it.

23     You recognize that the judge who heard the case found that your blood

24     alcohol content was three times above the legal limit.  You realize that,

25     do you?

Page 3921

 1        A.   Well, 0.5 is the legal limit, unless you're a professional

 2     driver, in which case there's zero tolerance.

 3             MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated].

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I've said it's a matter of weight in relation to

 5     this kind of evidence.  And I particularly, speaking for myself, am not

 6     going to attach any great weight to that kind of evidence in terms of the

 7     character of the witness.  I would advise you to move on to a different

 8     area.  In any event, you are now about 20 minutes beyond the time used by

 9     Mr. Ivetic, and I'll give you another 10 minutes.

10             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             I'd ask, then, that the indictment be -- the judgement be

12     tendered, so I formally tender 06454752 into evidence.  I don't have

13     enough time to ask the questions.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit P 208, Your Honours.

16             MR. GROOME:

17        Q.   Just a couple of questions.  In that case, you testified before

18     the investigating judge and the trial judge that you had one glass of

19     brandy, one drink.  You've now said you had two drinks.  Was it one drink

20     or two drinks?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, have you not asked him to move on to

22     another topic?

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I have.  Please move on to another topic,

24     Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 3922

 1        Q.   Sir, the final couple of questions I have for you have to do with

 2     whether or not you're accurate in your recollection of dates.  You seem

 3     to be somewhat equivocal on whether Milan Lukic first returned to

 4     Visegrad on the 6th of May, and you seem to leave open the possibility

 5     that it may have been earlier.  But at page 32 of the transcript on line

 6     2, you said:  "I don't think that he was" -- meaning he was in Bosnia

 7     before --  "because he had just come back from Switzerland."  Do you

 8     remember saying that?

 9        A.   I said that he had come from Switzerland and that on the 6th of

10     May we went to Bosnia, that he went to Bosnia with me.  Now, I don't know

11     whether he had gone there before.  We did not discuss that, so I can't

12     give you any other answer but the one that I gave you, that he went there

13     with me.

14        Q.   When did he return from Switzerland?

15        A.   Well, it was in late April, early May.  I had seen him a couple

16     of days before the 5th when he told me that his wife [as interpreted] was

17     sick and he had to go down and fetch her.  He told me he had returned a

18     couple of days before that.

19        Q.   And your evidence is that when you went to Visegrad, he was

20     forcibly inducted into the police reserves.  Is that correct?

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, I was going to wait for the answer.

23     There's a transcript issue at line 17.  It's not his wife, his mother.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  If that is so, then we'll take note of that, and

25     please answer the question.

Page 3923

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I got a little bit

 2     confused listening to what the Defence was saying.  Could you please

 3     repeat your question?

 4             MR. GROOME:

 5        Q.   It's your evidence that when you went to Visegrad with him, he

 6     was forced to remain there to serve on the reserve police force or the

 7     police force.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   Well, I can't tell you whether he was forced, whether he had to.

 9     I will tell you this.  Every citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and of

10     Serbia and so on had to comply with the military obligation either in the

11     army or in the police.  He was told at the check point to report there

12     and he went to the duty officer.  I really don't know what his obligation

13     was, whether this was some kind of compulsory service in the reserves.  I

14     really don't know that.

15        Q.   Is it your evidence that you are sure that it was the police and

16     not the army that he was required to serve in?

17        A.   Well, I don't know what the war assignment was, as it is called,

18     because in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, the situation is like

19     this.  Those who do their military service in the police then go to the

20     reserve force in the police.

21        Q.   Sir, I just have time for a couple of specific questions.  I

22     really don't have time to ask you about the general state of affairs.  I

23     want to ask you to take a look at a document from the Sredoje Lukic --

24     that was brought to this court by the Sredoje Lukic team, and it is

25     2D040413, and I'd ask that that document be placed on the screen, and if

Page 3924

 1     we could go straight to a page that is Y 0268242 and bears that number on

 2     the upper right-hand corner.

 3             Sir, while this is being called up, this title of this document

 4     is list of military personnel of the 2nd and 5th Podrinje Light Infantry

 5     Brigade.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, you have an objection.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.  First of all, this witness

 8     has not shown any personal knowledge.  There's no foundation for this

 9     document being brought up.  Thirdly, and I find no other way to bring

10     this up except to just state it.  Mr. Groome is showing a lack of

11     understanding of how the system works.  Maybe it's because they didn't

12     call an expert as to how the reserve system works over there, but this

13     document is irrelevant as to what this witness testified about in these

14     proceedings in the time period that he specified.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, certainly that's a matter for redirect

16     and argument.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's hear the question.

18             MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that we go to the B/C/S original with

19     Y 0268242 at the top page, the top right-hand corner.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, please ensure that if a foundation

21     is necessary for the witness's answer that you lay it.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not seeking to introduce this.  I'm

23     just seeking to test whether his -- to challenge the accuracy of his

24     assertion that Milan Lukic was a member of the police.  Is it possible

25     to -- Your Honour, there seems to be some technical difficulty.

Page 3925

 1        Q.   Sir, if I could put this to you and when the technical difficulty

 2     is resolved.  According to this document which, again, it's the Defence

 3     of Sredoje Lukic that have brought this to the Court, according to this

 4     document, Milan Lukic was a member of this Brigade of the Bosnian Serb

 5     Army from the 16th of April, 1992, and until the 1st of July, 1994.  So

 6     my question to you, sir, if this document is accurate, do you admit,

 7     then, that you are wrong when you assert that Milan Lukic was a member of

 8     the police force as of the 6th of May --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, how can he speak to its accuracy?

10     You haven't asked him any questions to let us know whether he's able to

11     speak to the accuracy of the document.

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I know that he's not able to.

13     What I'm putting to him, Your Honour, is that if this document were found

14     to be an accurate document, again, it was brought by the Defence, I don't

15     know much about his providence, I believe it was obtained through an RFA,

16     but I'm asking him whether he's still certain in light of this

17     information whether Milan Lukic was a member of the police force, as he

18     has testified.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I don't find that approach helpful

20     at all.  Please ask another question.

21             MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that the witness be shown P 150.  This is

22     Milan Lukic's statement to the police on the 27th of October, 1992, and

23     I'd ask that we go to the last page of the original.

24        Q.   Sir, being a friend of Milan Lukic, do you recognize his

25     signature there on the bottom of that page?

Page 3926

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  If we can have -- the

 2     Prosecution has already raised for purposes of other things in these

 3     proceedings the need to have an expert handwriting analysis to testify as

 4     to documents.  They can't have it both ways, Your Honours.  Either one

 5     way or the other.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not with you on that.  If he knows his

 7     signature, he can say it.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  So then can my witnesses testify about Risto

 9     Perisic's signature, Your Honour?

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't see why not.  He can say whether he

11     knows his signature.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, sir, I don't even know

13     how my wife signs her name, let alone Milan Lukic.  We never wrote to

14     each other in all these years.  I'm really sorry, I don't know his

15     handwriting.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's move on.  Mr. Groome, go ahead.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   Is it really your evidence that you would not be able to

19     recognize your wife's signature?

20        A.   Well, I know she writes in Cyrillic, but I don't really pay

21     attention to it.  I don't know how my wife writes or even my children.

22     There are lots of similar handwritings.

23        Q.   I want to read you a quote.  This document is in evidence.  I

24     want to read you a quote of what Milan Lukic said about when he arrived

25     in Visegrad and then ask you whether it changes your view about what you

Page 3927

 1     believe to be the case.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we would object as to lack of

 3     foundation, and I don't believe Witness 142 testified as to this was what

 4     Milan Lukic said.  I don't think this was actually anything like that,

 5     and in particular, I don't think it was an official statement and it was

 6     denied by the Defence.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it is in evidence and it records his

 8     statement in the first person.

 9             MR. ALARID:  But the fact of the matter is this witness has no

10     ability, and this would again go against the Court's earlier rulings of

11     using one witness's statement against another.

12             MR. GROOME:  I don't know how to respond to that, Your Honour.  I

13     don't quite understand it.  This is a statement of the accused that has

14     now been admitted into evidence.  I'm seeking -- it contradicts the

15     evidence of a witness before the Court.  I'm simply seeking to put the

16     statement that's in evidence before a witness who's before the Court and

17     to question him about whether that contradiction makes him reconsider his

18     testimony here today.

19             MR. ALARID:  And it also represents a summary and notes of a

20     9-hour interview, not an actual statement as we would traditionally

21     understand it.  This was the one that went overnight into the wee hours

22     of the morning.

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, this is actually not that statement.

24     This is the one taken by the police.  If you recall, that witness took a

25     long interview and we had his notes.  What we're talking about here is

Page 3928

 1     the police statement taken by the Uzice police at the time of his arrest.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, tell us exactly what is it that you

 5     are seeking to achieve?

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe the witness is mistaken when

 7     he gives his account about what happened when he returned with Milan

 8     Lukic on the 6th of May.  I think he's incorrect about the date.  I think

 9     he's incorrect about what happened.  Here, we have a statement by

10     Mr. Milan Lukic giving another date and giving another organization that

11     he was part of in Visegrad, not the police.  I believe it's entirely

12     proper to put it to the witness, either to refresh his recollection that

13     he's made some mistake in his testimony or to put it to him that he is in

14     fact wrong, that he did not appreciate the reality of when Mr. Lukic

15     returned or for whom he worked when he returned.  I believe it's an

16     entirely proper line of questioning with the witness.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I can be heard, this is a very

18     serious matter, then, because what Mr. Groome is now asking to do is

19     precisely what Mr. Groome's office prevented us from doing.  Witness

20     VG-64, trans -- page 2902, when we tried to present the sworn statement

21     taken by the Office of the Prosecutor of the husband of the protected

22     witness, Ms. Maxine Marcus, and objected precisely to us using it to

23     either refresh the recollection of the witness or to confront them with

24     contradictory testimony.  So we were not permitted the opportunity to use

25     that statement.  Mr. Groome is now trying to have the backside of it, to

Page 3929

 1     enjoy the fruits that he prevented us from having in his case in chief.

 2     I believe it's wholly improper and goes against the rule of the case.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the fundamental difference, though, and

 4     the critical difference is is that the evidence is between the two people

 5     that are here.  It's not taking one witness and then presenting it to a

 6     witness who's not here.  Here it is.  He's saying that he had a

 7     conversation.  He had dealings with the man here in court.  The man here

 8     in court has said on a prior occasion what he was, what he was doing, and

 9     it completely contradicts this witness.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you accept that distinction, Mr. Ivetic?

11             MR. IVETIC:  I do not, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why?

13             MR. IVETIC:  We have a sworn statement.  By the way this is a

14     statement that was taken -- if it's the one I'm thinking about, the

15     witness testified that this statement is illegal in Serbian law.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The statement here is a statement of the

17     accused, who's a party to the proceedings.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  He is entitled to his right not to testify if

19     he so chooses.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That makes a distinction.

21             MR. IVETIC:  They can't force him to testify, can they?

22             MR. GROOME:  I'm not seeking to force him to testify.  It's a

23     prior statement that's in evidence.  It's a piece of evidence that's in

24     the trial.

25             MR. IVETIC:  And it's a piece of evidence that's -- the statement

Page 3930

 1     that we had from the Office of the Prosecutor was a sworn statement taken

 2     by the Office of the Prosecutor that directly contradicted the witness at

 3     that time about the identity of Milan Lukic.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, certainly if I was somehow able to have

 5     the uniform that Milan Lukic wore in those days and it was a military

 6     uniform, I'd be entitled to put it before Mr. Markovic and say, this

 7     isn't a police uniform, is it?  That would be entirely proper.  And it's

 8     analogous to what I'm trying to do here except it's the statement of

 9     Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  It's irrelevant because again Mr. Groome is not

11     paying attention to the nuances of reserve service in the former

12     Yugoslavia and how that is accomplished, and I submit if he just had a

13     uniform, he could not do it.  But I suppose he could ask the question of

14     the witness without the document, but I really think what we're doing is

15     basically saying that the Prosecution can do it one way and the Defence

16     has to do it another way, and that is -- I'm finding it patently unfair

17     that throughout this case we try to use statements of nonparties

18     including persons -- if you might recall --

19             MR. GROOME:  Statements of non-parties.  Mr. Lukic is a party to

20     these proceedings.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And I don't think that that distinction makes a

22     difference.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll allow the question.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   Sir, I'm going to read you what Milan Lukic said about when he

Page 3931

 1     returned to Visegrad and what he did, and my question to you is going to

 2     be, does this change your testimony about what you have said about this

 3     matter.

 4             "I have been on the front in Visegrad and its surroundings since

 5     the 10th of April, 1992.  I am the commander of a group called the

 6     Avengers, initially known as the Obrenovac Detachment.  The group has

 7     between 20 and 50 men and is under the command of the Visegrad

 8     Territorial Defence, and I am directly subordinate to Vinko Pandurevic."

 9             Sir, now that I have put that to you, does that change your

10     testimony about what occurred on the 6th of May?

11        A.   It does not.  I am absolutely sure I'm telling the real truth.

12     Milan, when he met with me, told me he had arrived a few days ago from

13     Switzerland, but whether he had been in the territory of Bosnia before,

14     whether he had returned there earlier, I don't know.

15        Q.   Sir, let's not repeat anything.  If the words of your good friend

16     don't persuade you that you might be mistaken, is there any piece of

17     evidence that you would look at and possibly acknowledge that you night

18     be mistaken about the date the 6th of May?

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm not allowing that question, Mr. Groome.

20     That's comment.

21        Q.   Sir, transcript page 1321 records you as telling us that Milan

22     Lukic had a light breakfast on the morning of May 6th, 16th years ago.

23     Do you really recall, as you sit here today, recall what Milan Lukic had

24     for breakfast 16 years ago?

25        A.   An omelette, an omelette, a cheese omelette, whereas I had an

Page 3932

 1     njegus steak.  I offered to treat him to this delicacy which I know he

 2     had not had any for a long time, but he was an athlete.  He had his own

 3     strict diet.

 4        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that your evidence in this regard and the

 5     dates that you've testified to is not only improbable, it's unreliable,

 6     that your evidence cannot be relied on with respect to the dates that you

 7     have given us, beginning of May and June 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th.  Do you

 8     understand what I am putting to you?

 9        A.   I understand what you're putting to me.  I can only repeat that

10     my testimony on these dates is truthful, and that's what I know about

11     Milan Lukic.  It's completely truthful.  It's another matter that I

12     cannot confirm anything with regard to events that transpired later, but

13     what I said is completely true.

14             MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Re-examination, Mr. Ivetic?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Mr. Markovic --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Dieckmann.

18             MR. DIECKMANN:  Sorry.  No questions from the Defence of Sredoje

19     Lukic.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologize, Your Honours.  Mr. Markovic, on behalf

22     of the Defence of Milan Lukic and Milan Lukic himself, I thank you for

23     coming today.  I have no questions for redirect.  Thank you, sir.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank all counsel

25     and the Trial Chamber.

Page 3933

 1                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, when was this indictment laid, the

 3     indictment?

 4             MR. GROOME:  The indictment that was marked for identification,

 5     Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No.  The indictment against Milan, Milan Lukic.

 7             MR. GROOME:  I personally am bad with dates.  I'd prefer to

 8     check, if I could have a moment.

 9                           Questioned by the Court:

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Markovic, I wanted to ask you, when did you

11     first learn of these charges against your friend Milan Lukic?

12        A.   When an international all-points alert was issued and the

13     indictment was raised by this Tribunal.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So when was that?  How long ago?

15        A.   A couple of years ago.  I don't know.  I know that there was an

16     indictment not only against him but against several people.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What I wanted to find out, if you had all this

18     information that would be beneficial to your friend, why did you keep it

19     to yourself?  Did you go to the authorities to provide them with this

20     information which could exculpate Milan Lukic?

21        A.   Your Honour, from 1997 I had no further contact with Milan Lukic,

22     especially when he was no longer in Visegrad, and at the time when this

23     international indictment was brought against him, I had nothing -- no

24     useful information on him to help the authorities with.  I knew nothing.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But you knew about the charges against him.

Page 3934

 1     Were you not aware of the charges that had been laid against him in the

 2     indictment, the allegations that he was at a particular place on a

 3     particular date doing these very bad things that were alleged, and you

 4     would have had information that he was somewhere else, and so I'm asking,

 5     why didn't you go to the authorities with that information?

 6        A.   The authorities knew everything about the international search

 7     for him.  At that time, I wasn't working.  In 2003, I was on a prolonged

 8     sick leave in various spas and sanitoria, hospitals.  I spent a long time

 9     in hospital.  At any rate, I had no information to give.  If as a police

10     officer I had such information, I would have helped the authorities and I

11     would have even arrested him as a police officer.  I would have done

12     whatever my duty was to do.  I had the occasion in my life to arrest a

13     person with whom I was on very good terms with.  I took that former

14     minister, actually, in a former government to the police station to give

15     a statement.  So whoever it is --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let's not digress.  The first time that you

17     spoke about Milan being with you at another place in relation to these

18     charges, is that when you would have been approached by the lawyers for

19     Milan?

20        A.   I really don't understand this question.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me rephrase it.  What I'm trying to find out

22     is, when was the first time that you made any statement to anybody

23     concerning Milan being with you at certain places?

24        A.   I spoke for the first time about it to Lawyer Lakcevic from his

25     Defence team, and I told him only the things I know.  I knew nothing

Page 3935

 1     else.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But that information you'd have had all along

 3     from 1992.

 4        A.   Well, Milan was in Visegrad from 1992 after the war.  He lived in

 5     Visegrad.  Nothing was being concealed there.  There were S4 units there

 6     at the time.  If there had been something, I suppose they would have

 7     arrested him.  What information did I have?  I had no information about

 8     him after my last contact with him.  At the time when this international

 9     search started, I had nothing on him.  I couldn't even call him.

10             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

12             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I can tell what you're trying to get

13     at, and what concerns me is is that what had not been established either

14     on direct, cross, or I even think with your query is that this witness

15     had actually read the indictment.  It's one thing to get news reports

16     that there is an indictment and even some general allegations as to what

17     those indictment might have consisted about, but actually have read the

18     indictment and see the relevant dates and periods, I think you're asking

19     is why didn't he come forward with exculpatory, and he keeps responding

20     as if it should have been information to arrest him.  And I think that

21     from the time period involved, that's what he keeps responding to.

22             MR. IVETIC:  In B/C/S, he keeps using the word "potjernica,"

23     which is the arrest warrant.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Markovic, that concludes your --

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3936

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you have any re-examination?

 2             MR. ALARID:  No, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  So that concludes your evidence.  We thank

 4     you for coming to the Tribunal to give it and you may now leave.  In any

 5     event, we are going to adjourn for the day, so you will leave with us.

 6                           ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 7                           To be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

 8                           December, 2008, at 8.50 a.m.