1 Thursday, 18 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Today in the absence of Judge David,
6 Judge Van Den Wyngaert and I sit pursuant to the provisions of
7 Rule 15 bis.
8 Did you have a matter, Mr. Groome?
9 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Your Honours, I want
10 to take a few minutes to address two issues with the Trial Chamber.
11 First, last night just before midnight
12 Defence disclosed two additional exhibits to the Prosecution. I'm not
13 objecting to the introduction or disclosure of these exhibits, but do
14 want to note for the record the lateness of them since it has been raised
15 as an issue in the Prosecution case, and of course, we're not sure what
16 appeals might be taken in this case.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: There are similar late disclosures by the
18 Prosecution, if I remember. Probably not as late as midnight, but the
19 day before.
20 MR. GROOME: Well, yes, Your Honour. That's why I'm not
21 objecting to them, but it seems that might important to note for the
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, for the record, the exhibits at issue
24 are two maps of the area and a photograph.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 MR. GROOME: I have yet to received the photograph. If that
2 could be disclosed now.
3 MR. ALARID: It's already in evidence.
4 MR. GROOME: The second matter, Your Honour, I'd like to raise
5 with the Chamber is what I consider as some unfortunate advocacy by the
6 Milan Lukic Defence team, and I want to request that the Chamber give
7 some consideration to a suggestion that I wish to make. If the Chamber
8 would be kind enough to give consideration to it over the recess.
9 Judge Robinson, you were in New York last week at meetings in the
10 United Nations headquarters, and I do not know if you have had time to
11 review the transcript since your return. During a presentation on the
12 9th of December, Mr. Alarid spent over an hour asserting dozens of
13 allegations not only addressed at the Prosecution but against others as
15 I accepted Judge Van Den Wyngaert's suggestion to respond in
16 writing, and I will not take any time today to do so orally. But in
17 working on the written response, I have come to realize that an unfounded
18 allegation cavalierly cast across the courtroom takes considerable time
19 to respond to and is an unwelcome distraction from the important work of
20 a trial.
21 Some of the objections raised yesterday included gratuitous
22 insults or accusations directed at me. I have reminded myself of what is
23 contained in the Code of Professional Conduct for Counsel appearing
24 before the International Tribunal, and I draw the attention of the
25 Chamber to Article 27.
1 Paragraph 27(A) states: "Counsel shall demonstrate respect,
2 integrity and courtesy for officials and staff members of the Tribunal
3 and for all persons who facilitate and participate in the proceedings."
4 27(C) states: "Counsel shall recognize the representatives of
5 the parties as professional colleagues and shall act fairly, honestly,
6 and courteously towards them."
7 The unfounded attacks against my personal integrity last week,
8 last week's correspondence from Mr. Alarid which characterized filings by
9 the Prosecution with what seems to be an scatological reference as well
10 as other intemperate language, and yesterday's inclusions of insults is a
11 violation of the code of professional conduct, is unfair to me and
12 members of my team, and I submit undermines the public perception of the
13 dignity of these proceedings.
14 I'm therefore requesting the Chamber to consider the following
15 suggestions. First, each of you on this Bench, as individuals, is an
16 experienced jurist. I believe when raising objections, a simple
17 statement by any of the attorneys of the legal basis for the objection
18 should be sufficient for you to recognize the issue to be decided. A
19 simple statement such as relevance or leading question or lack of
20 foundation, I would think, in most cases, be sufficient to inform the
21 Chamber of the pertinent issue.
22 I believe it should then be left to the Chamber to decide whether
23 it wishes to hear additional information or argument on the matter. I
24 believe this practice would go a long way to minimise statements that are
25 unnecessary to the issue at hand and undermine the conduct of the trial.
1 The second suggestion I ask the Chamber to consider over the
2 recess is the following. The Chamber when called upon to make a decision
3 must make it in an informed manner. It is entitled to rely on
4 representations made by counsel appearing before it as officers of the
5 court, trusting that those counsels will have checked their information
6 and make whatever assertions they make in good faith.
7 Yesterday, Mr. Ivetic made a statement that I had taken a
8 particular position with respect to the Duga article's reliability.
9 While I did not recall taking such a position, I was unable to
10 immediately recall details of the prior discussions of the article. I
11 asked a member of my staff to check the record yesterday evening, and she
12 informed me yesterday evening that Mr. Ivetic has incorrectly
13 characterized the prior discussions about the Duga article. I will not
14 take any time with it here this morning, as I think the issue will arise
15 again later in the trial.
16 I do ask the Chamber to consider requiring the following, that
17 advocates who are going to refer and characterize earlier discussions,
18 particularly when such characterizations are going to be of a pejorative
19 nature, that such only be done after checking the record and that a cite
20 to the transcript be provided where possible so that attorneys and the
21 Chamber can have the opportunity to review the transcript.
22 I appreciate that objections must be raised quickly, but LiveNote
23 has the capacity to navigate the trial record quickly. A simple search
24 of the word "Duga" would have identified all discussions related to that
25 evidence in a few seconds.
1 I would greatly appreciate the Chamber giving due consideration
2 to these requests over the holiday recess.
3 Your Honours, the final point I wish to raise with you is my
4 concern going into the holiday recess with no definitive witness list
5 from the Milan
6 yesterday, and I'm able to discuss it at any time you choose. I would
7 simply ask that we do discuss it before concluding proceedings today.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has the submissions, the motion,
10 filed by the Defence and ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe we are still awaiting response from
13 the Prosecution, and we'll give a decision and take into consideration
14 all relevant factors, including those that you have raised. Please call
15 the next witness.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, our next witness will be MLD10,
17 testifying subject to protective measures of pseudonym, voice distortion,
18 and face distortion, and she will be presented viva voce, and I hope to
19 cut her down to two hours. And perhaps I can inquire if Mr. Groome has
20 confirmed that the translation offered yesterday for the exhibit was
21 indeed with insertations from the Prosecution and when the proper
22 translation will be available.
23 MR. GROOME: I haven't checked it yet, Your Honour. I'll ask
24 Ms. Mazzocco here to see if she can get some additional information about
25 the translation.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit, and begin, Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And if I could have the
7 assistance of the usher, I have a pseudonym sheet.
8 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD10
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
11 Q. Madam, as you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the attorneys for
12 Milan Lukic, and for purposes of the record I'm going to have to address
13 you today as MLD10, and in a moment you will be shown a pseudonym sheet.
14 And now, madam, I'd ask you to take a look and review the sheet, and if
15 you could confirm for us that the information as to yourself contained
16 therein is correct.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you could please, then, also tell me if the -- if -- pardon
19 me. If you have to refer to any of the other individuals listed on
20 there - I believe there's one other individual listed on there - I would
21 ask you to please use the pseudonym that is listed therein, if that's
22 okay with you, and then I would ask you to sign this sheet or initial it.
23 MR. IVETIC: And Your Honours, I'd ask for this document to be
24 introduced under seal as the next available 1D exhibit number.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D 93 under seal, Your Honours.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Madam, if you could tell me as we begin, what is your ethnicity
4 or your religious national identity or affinity.
5 A. By ethnicity, I'm Bosnian, Bosniak, and by religious affiliation,
6 I'm Muslim.
7 Q. Thank you, ma'am. I'm just waiting for the translation and the
8 transcript to catch up with us.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we can go briefly into private
10 session, I'd like to address some matters that would perhaps identify the
11 witness if handled in open court.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 3944-3949 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Witness, we are now again in open session, so now from this point
22 forward everything that we talk about will be transmitted publicly, so I
23 again urge you to be careful not to reveal your identity and to use the
24 information on the pseudonym sheet that has been left in front of you.
25 With respect to the time period of the Bosnian civil war, did you
1 have occasion to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina during that time period?
2 A. You mean during the war? I did not go to Bosnia.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, given all the matters that we've discussed in
4 closed session, would you consider yourself a person that knew
5 Milan Lukic very well?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. In all the time that you've known Milan Lukic, has he ever had
8 blond hair or blue eyes?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How would you describe how Milan Lukic acted toward persons of
11 different ethnic groups, that is to say, ethnic and religious groups
12 different from his own?
13 A. Well, I would say that Milan Lukic is very thoughtful and kind
14 towards all people regardless of nationality, and he was on good terms
15 with everyone in the broader region of Visegrad. I never heard about any
16 excesses or any quarrels that he might have had with anyone. There was
17 never any problem between him and our family, either.
18 Q. If I can ask you, did you ever witness him to make any insults
19 against persons that were of the Muslim religion or national identity?
20 A. No. I've never witnessed or heard about any such thing, and I
21 maintain with full responsibility that he did not distinguish between
22 people in terms of nationality or ethnicity.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness. And again, I'm waiting just for the English
24 translation and the transcript to catch up with us. If you could briefly
25 give us your personal appraisal of the type of person Milan Lukic was
1 based upon your -- based upon knowing him in your life. How is it that
2 you would describe him?
3 A. Milan Lukic was extremely handsome, a quiet, nice person, always
4 forthcoming, helpful whenever he could be, an extremely humane and
5 gracious person. Noble, even, I would say, a very positive character, I
6 would say.
7 Q. And MLD10, I would like to now draw your attention to the time
8 period when the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you recall when
9 it was that the war broke out in your homeland of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
10 A. The war in my home country, Bosnia-Herzegovina, broke out in
11 1992, as far as I know.
12 Q. Thank you. And now you've already told us that you were not
13 present in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the duration of the war. Did you
14 have family members who were caught up in the war and had to endure the
15 war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. Only one of my brothers was not there. The rest of the family
18 Q. And were any members of your family engaged as members of any of
19 the armed forces participating in the war, and if so, which?
20 A. Yes. The four of them were in the armed forces. One of them got
22 Q. And which army did they belong to?
23 A. In the federal army, the Muslim army, in fact.
24 Q. And ma'am, without revealing the exact location, when the war
25 first broke out, where were your father and your siblings? What
2 A. In the municipality of Visegrad
3 Q. Did there come a time when you lost contact with your father and
4 your siblings or said contact was interrupted?
5 A. I severed contacts with them from the time when the war broke out
6 or, rather, all contacts were cut.
7 Q. Do you recall a time period in 1992 when you sought out the
8 assistance of Milan Lukic to ascertain the fate of your family members
9 that were in Visegrad and to try and assist them?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you tell us some of the details about when it was precisely
12 that you sought out Mr. Milan Lukic's assistance.
13 A. Well, I called his sister in Belgrade. I wanted to talk to her.
14 That was on the 8th, in the afternoon. I talked to her, and she told me
15 that Milan
16 asked her to let him know that I wanted to meet him if possible because I
17 wanted him to let me know what was happening with my family. And I told
18 her that he should call me if possible, and she said that he would, and
19 he indeed called me. That was on the 8th between 8 and 9 p.m. That was
20 right after the evening news.
21 So we talked. He asked me if I was married, how I lived. He
22 inquired about my health, and I asked him if we could perhaps meet, and
23 he said that we could and that the best thing to do would be to meet in
25 he said that he had some things to do, that he was taking some Muslims
1 from Visegrad to Novi Pazar, to get them away from the war zone.
2 So we set up a meet in Novi Pazar, and I asked him if he could
3 call me on the 10th to confirm the meeting in Novi Pazar, and then around
4 1.00 p.m.
5 Q. If we can just back up a little bit. You indicated twice in your
6 answer that events occurred on the 8th. Could you please clarify for us
7 what month is in reference.
8 A. On the 8th of June, 1992.
9 Q. And in your answer, you also mentioned the 10th for the meeting
10 in Novi
11 the year of that.
12 A. That was on the 10th of June, 1992.
13 Q. And again, being careful not to reveal any identities of
14 yourself, can you tell us how you obtained the telephone number for
16 A. Well, I had it written down somewhere, but I couldn't find the
17 number, and then I called a neighbor of mine from Visegrad. She lived in
18 Uzice, and she gave me her number.
19 Q. And with respect to the meeting in Novi Pazar, could you explain
20 for us exactly what did you agree with Milan Lukic for the 10th of June,
22 A. On the 10th of June, 1992, Milan and I arranged that he should
23 try to find my family, to see whether they were okay, whether they needed
24 anything, where they were, and I sent some stuff with him. I think it
25 was a pack of cigarettes and maybe a kilo of coffee and
1 100 Deutschemarks. I gave it to him so that he could give it to them.
2 Q. And we've been talking about these two dates, the 8th and the
3 10th of June, 1992. How is it that those particular dates stand out in
4 your mind?
5 A. Well, it stuck in my mind because my husband had come back from
7 13th of June, and we always have a celebration as much as we could. My
8 husband came -- well, it's a well known date throughout the world. It's
9 the Feast of St. Anthony of Padua
10 joke and call me Antonia for that reason.
11 Q. And if I can ask you, did Milan Lukic at that time tell you why
12 he had been in Belgrade
13 A. He told me that his mother was supposed to undergo some check-ups
14 or some examinations on the 7th, and that's why he came to Belgrade. She
15 had to do some ultrasound check-ups. That's why he had come to Belgrade
16 with her.
17 Q. And if we can help out with -- for those who are not familiar
18 with the geography of the region, where is Novi Pazar located in relation
19 to, let's say, Belgrade
20 A. Well, it's about halfway between Belgrade and Montenegro
21 place where I had set off from. It's close to the border of Montenegro
22 Q. And was there a specific location or landmark in Novi Pazar that
23 was the site of the meeting?
24 A. We arranged that we would meet next to the fortress, because that
25 was the easiest thing to do, because you could ask anyone anywhere where
1 the fortress was, and that's how we met.
2 Q. And you indicated that was so it'd be easier for you to meet.
3 Could you tell us how it was that you traveled there. By what means did
4 you travel there, and with whom?
5 A. I traveled there in our car with my husband. We had a Mercedes.
6 It was a diesel engine, 2.5 litre. The model was 190.
7 Q. Can you detail for us the route that you took to travel from your
8 place of residence and the fortress -- or Novi Pazar, I should say.
9 A. Well, it was Bar, Podgorica; Podgorica, Ivangrad; and then from
10 Ivangrad, Rozaje, Novi
11 Q. And do you recall the approximate time that you spent traveling
12 to Novi Pazar from your home and/or the time -- the approximate time that
13 you arrived at the fortress that was to be the meeting point for your
14 encounter with Mr. Milan Lukic?
15 A. I think it took us about four hours. We took breaks en route.
16 We were not in a hurry. We had enough time to get there on time.
17 Q. And do you recall the approximate time when you arrived at the
19 A. Well, we arrived there about one -- half an hour earlier. We
20 didn't want to get there too early. That's why we stopped on our route
21 there, to avoid that.
22 Q. In terms of the time of day, what time of day was it in reference
23 to either the morning, afternoon, evening?
24 A. It was in the evening, between 5 -- or, rather, I'm sorry,
25 between 7 and 8 p.m.
1 Q. And did you have any difficulty find the fortress? How did you
2 find the fortress for the meeting?
3 A. Well, I asked the police in town where the fortress was.
4 Q. And did in fact Milan Lukic arrive for the encounter or meeting?
5 A. Yes, he did.
6 Q. And could you tell us, do you have an estimation as to the
7 duration of that meeting with Milan Lukic at the Novi Pazar fortress?
8 A. Well, 15 minutes to half an hour, not more than that, 15 minutes
9 to half an hour.
10 Q. And could you tell us -- could you tell us what transpired during
11 that meeting? What happened?
12 A. Well, we said hello. I asked him whether he saw my family,
13 whether he had heard from anyone where they were, and he explained to me
14 that he would do his best to locate them and that he had some knowledge
15 as to the fact that my father had to report to the police station in
16 Visegrad and that he would do his best to find them as soon as he got
17 back from Novi Pazar.
18 Q. And you mentioned earlier a package or gift package that you'd
19 prepared for your relatives. Did you have occasion to give that to
20 Milan Lukic, and what was his response to your request?
21 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I handed it over to Milan, and he promised that
22 he would in turn hand it over to them and that he would make a
23 100-per cent effort to find them, that he would do all he could do to
24 help them, morally and financially and in any other way. And that
25 allayed my fears because I didn't know my mother at all, so my father was
1 everything to me.
2 Q. And you indicated you traveled there with your husband. Did your
3 husband participate in that meeting?
4 A. Yes. My husband just said hello and he stood there. He didn't
5 make any comments.
6 Q. Did Mr. Lukic arrive alone, or were there other people in the
7 vehicle with him?
8 A. Lukic told me that his mother was with him, and then I asked to
9 see her if possible because I wanted to say hello to her. He told me
10 that I could but that he was in a hurry, that I could just say hello to
11 her briefly. So we went to the car that Milan had driven there. It was
12 a blue car. His mother was inside, and he opened the passenger-side
13 door. His mother got out. We said hello. We talked for five minutes,
14 and I told her I wished her a safe trip, and then they went off.
15 Q. You indicated that Milan
16 power to find your relatives and to pass along the gift packet that you
17 had prepared for them. Did you ever have an opportunity to confirm with
18 your family members whether Milan
19 had requested?
20 A. I did not have an opportunity during the war to talk to anyone.
21 After the war, I managed to find my people in Zenica. They had moved to
22 Zenica, and they told me everything. My father was still alive at the
23 time, and he told me how Milan
24 to their place, how he hid them, how they slept in their place, how he
25 gave them food, how he managed to make it possible for them to move to a
1 safe place.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I object. I believe we're going into
4 an area that's outside the Rule 67 alibi notice and beginning to speak
5 about events on the 26th and 27th of June, which was not -- we were not
6 given notice that this witness would be testifying as to these matters.
7 MR. IVETIC: I direct Mr. Groome to Rule 65 ter, which is the
8 instructive rule as to testimony of witnesses. This witness was properly
9 disclosed under Rule 65 ter within the time periods that the Court set
10 for 65 ter notification by the Defence.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: His point, Mr. Ivetic, as I understand it, is
13 that the area that is now being discussed doesn't relate to the alibi.
14 I'm not sure that I agree with Mr. Groome, but it's ...
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I'm wrong, but maybe Mr. Ivetic
16 would be able to clarify for the Chamber. The event that she's now
17 referring to, what is the date of that event. If we could have
18 clarification, then perhaps I'll withdraw my objection if it's a
19 different day.
20 MR. IVETIC: Well, she's talking about multiple events. I mean,
21 if you want to go through the whole litany, I don't know. But we're not
22 presenting her as an alibi that she was with Milan Lukic on any other
23 date apart from the date that we have disclosed her as for and that she
24 has just completed testifying about, and I leave it to Your Honours'
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The way that I see it, Mr. Groome, she testified
2 that she gave Milan Lukic a package for her family, and I think it is
3 entirely reasonable to inquire whether that package had been delivered.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could just be heard briefly on
5 this. There's another witness on the Defence witness list --
6 MR. IVETIC: Should we be speaking in front of the witness with
7 this? I don't know what Mr. Groome is bringing up now, but it sounds
8 like he's bringing up discussions, so I don't know if the witness ought
9 be excused or --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no, we -- go along.
11 MR. GROOME: The relative of this witness is also scheduled to
12 testify who testifies that -- what I believe she's about to testify to,
13 that this event of saving her father and brother occurred on the 26th to
14 the 27th of June. The alibi notice for this witness says nothing about
15 that, and although there is a reference in the 65 ter about a good
16 conduct of Milan Lukic with respect to treatment of her family, the 65
17 ter doesn't even say that date. So if this woman is now going to testify
18 that on the 26th and 27th of June that Milan Lukic was present at the
19 family home and did something with respect to her family, that clearly is
20 something that we have not been given notice about with respect to
21 Rule 67. I have no objection to her testimony about the 10th of June.
22 That was properly noticed, and I'm not objecting to that. It's simply I
23 believe we're going into an area now that we're talking about the
24 26th and 27th of June.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you understand the objection now, Mr. Ivetic,
2 that you have brought her to testify about the 10th, to provide an alibi
3 for the 10th, but what --
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that -- that -- I apologize.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you appear to be now going beyond that to
6 the 26th and 27th, different -- are you going in that direction?
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I can read for the record what the
8 65 ter description for this witness was. It says: "This witness is a
9 character and alibi witness. MLD10 will testify as to the good acts and
10 deeds of Milan Lukic, including how he saved members of her own family
11 and brought Bosnian Muslims to Novi Pazar to escape the war zone. MLD10
12 will testify that Milan Lukic was in Serbia on 10 June, 1992, what he met
13 with this witness. MLD10 will further address, rebut the testimony of
15 This is not merely an alibi witness, Your Honour. She is a mixed
16 witness of alibi, fact, and character. She is properly disclosed for
17 multiple areas. The only alibi that we are presenting her for is
18 10 June 1992
19 for. We are seeking to and have disclosed her as a witness to testify as
20 to her knowledge of the good deeds and acts of Milan Lukic towards her
21 family and towards others.
22 We do not -- she obviously cannot be an alibi witness for any of
23 those as to specific dates because she was not present with him when he
24 was saving or helping members of her family. So to the extent that she
25 can recall the time periods when this was involved, she -- we're calling
1 her to address her knowledge from her family of the good deeds and acts
2 of Milan Lukic that I think go towards establishing the type of person he
3 was, go toward mitigation and other factors that are relevant to these
4 proceedings. So I would defer to Your Honours' instructions.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: So if I understand you, you're saying that in
6 respect of the 26 and 27th, she will not be giving alibi evidence? She
7 will be testifying to the good deeds, the character of the accused?
8 MR. IVETIC: We can ask her if she can pin it down to a time
9 period, but, I mean, she's not an -- an alibi is someone who's with them
10 or saw them. Obviously, she was nowhere -- she testified that she saw
11 him on the 10th of June. She's not going to testify that she saw him on
12 the 27th or the 26th of June or any other date unless -- unless we -- any
13 other date related to the indictment. That's the crux of our submission.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I mean, clearly if she says that, My
16 father told me that he was with Milan Lukic on the 26th or 27th, the fact
17 that she wasn't physically present with him doesn't mean that that
18 evidence isn't relevant to alibi, and I think it's important to point out
19 that I bear the burden on alibi. They just have to raise the reasonable
20 possibility that Milan Lukic was not in Visegrad, but I must prove beyond
21 reasonable doubt, and that's why Rule 67 gives me certain procedural
22 rights and certain notice. I think the key documents to look at are the
23 alibi notice that was served with respect to this witness. I read from
24 it, and this is the notice of the 18th of July:
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, can we have a redaction of her
9 relative's place of birth since this is a protected witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That will be redacted.
11 MR. GROOME: "... was burned down because they were Muslims, the
12 Lukic family invited them to sleep at their place for the next few days.
13 MLD2 will state in his testimony that between the period of 26 June 1992
14 until 29th June 1992
15 and Milan
16 that time period."
17 That's the notice that we've been given with respect to MLD 2. I
18 believe what's appropriate here is we've not been given any notice that
19 this witness is going to talk about that event, that this witness be not
20 permitted -- if MLD 2 is going to come here and testify to that event,
21 that has been properly noticed and he can properly testify about it.
22 Otherwise, what's happened here, Your Honour, is that a new alibi witness
23 has been raised for the first time in the middle of the testimony of the
24 witness, and we've been given no notice.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I must correct a misstatement on the
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I'm going to consult.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, if indeed you were not notified of
5 this matter, so that are you not in a position to rebut it, what would be
6 the prejudice if we were to give you permission to rebut it at a later
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I may interject, Mr. Groome is
9 incorrect that he was not put on notice. The statement of this witness
10 that was disclosed in the alibi filings, and we could pull it up on the
11 screen if need be. The last paragraph of that statement states:
12 "Later, after the war, my father told me that Milan Lukic saved
13 the family, and that my father and my brother slept and ate in Milan
14 Lukic's house and that it was thanks to this that they survived."
15 So this area that I'm going into has been disclosed as of
16 July 8th of this year --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now does it relate --
18 MR. IVETIC: -- to Mr. Groome.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- does it relate to the 26th and 27th, which is
20 his point?
21 MR. IVETIC: I haven't asked her about the 26th or the 27th.
22 I've asked her about whether she heard from her family that Milan Lukic
23 helped them and assisted them, and that's exactly what's been disclosed.
24 And therefore, I take great issue with Mr. Groome for how he claims that
25 everyone else is misrepresenting things here, but time and time again,
1 the documentation --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly asked to slow down for
4 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... -- I really
5 don't know what to do about this, and I apologize for [Microphone not
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, he's saying that you're premature.
8 We don't know yet whether he's going to lead evidence about the 26th and
9 27th, so let us see how it develops and maybe you can take your point
10 then if it is necessary.
11 Yes, proceed.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I will have to try and go
13 back to repeat the question.
14 Q. Now, madam -- madam, you had started testifying about when you
15 had moved to Zenica and had met up with your family, that is to say your
16 brother -- pardon me, your father, and they told you everything -- could
17 you please try to complete your answer to my question, which originally
18 was that: Did you ever have an opportunity to confirm with your family
19 members whether Milan
20 him to do?
21 A. Yes. My father confirmed that, and so did my brother. They said
22 that they had received the package, and they spent a couple of days in
23 his house, that he helped them as much as he could, and that he even
24 roasted some lamb for them. It was St. Vitus Day, and he said, Well,
25 we'll roast a lamb to celebrate, and they spent some three or four days
1 at his place.
2 Q. And --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Now I don't think the point is premature,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It was St. Vitus Day.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, that's the relevant day in the
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, as I was saying earlier, my interest
12 really is getting in all the evidence. The rules do require that you be
13 notified, and you have not been notified in relation to this particular
14 aspect of this witness's evidence. Fairness, therefore, requires that
15 you be given an opportunity to rebut it, and the Chamber will provide you
16 with that opportunity at a later stage in the proceedings.
17 MR. GROOME: I guess, Your Honours, it's part of a greater
18 concern that I have that hopefully we'll discuss later on, but there's
19 another witness, MLD13, who has been noticed to us -- originally was an
20 alibi for Pionirska but now is Bikavac. It's very hard to conduct a
21 trial from a Prosecution point of view, particularly in an alibi case
22 where the alibi is evolving or is changing. Clearly this witness, we
23 were never given notice she was going to provide an alibi for Bikavac in
24 the alibi notice that was filed, and I must note, late, but it was only
25 under the order of the Court that it was eventually filed after the
1 commencement of trial on the 18th of July. I take the Chamber at its
2 word that will give me a fair opportunity to rebut this, but aside from
3 that, Your Honour, just in terms of procedural fairness, again, it is me
4 that has a very heavy burden to disprove this alibi. It is really very
5 difficult for me to do it if the Defence is going to be permitted to
6 change the alibi as we move through the trial.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the alibi is not changing. The alibis
8 that were presented, we're not adding any new people that were present
9 with Milan
10 alibi, the factual basis for the alibis, which is what we were required
11 to disclose, we disclosed. It hasn't changed, unlike what Mr. Groome has
12 said. The alibis are what they are.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, the way that I have practiced law
14 all my life is that I am more concerned with substance --
15 MR. IVETIC: I agree.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and with form and with procedure. So when
17 you look at the rule on alibi, the purpose of that Rule which requires
18 notice is to enable the Prosecution to have time to rebut it, and I have
19 said I'm going to give Mr. Groome that time so that he can rebut it if he
21 MR. IVETIC: And I have no problem with that. They have an
22 absolute right to rebut any evidence I bring. The point is, I take
23 umbrage with the statement that the alibi is changing when it's the same
24 factual circumstance. If they rebutted as to the alibi witness, they can
25 rebut any --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is a matter for the Chamber to determine.
2 We'll look at all the evidence and make up our mind about that. So
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
5 Q. Madam Witness, if we could return back in time to the conclusion
6 of your meeting on the 10th of June, 1992, at Novi Pazar with
8 left after some time. Following your meeting with Milan Lukic, did you
9 and your husband have occasion to go straight home, or did you go
10 elsewhere, but for purposes of your safety, don't say in open court
11 the -- don't say in open court either location.
12 A. My husband and I went to see a friend in Novi Pazar.
13 MR. IVETIC: And Your Honours, if we could briefly go into
14 private session, I can deal with the identity of this friend and several
15 other matters into the next area of my question that also ought to be in
16 private session, so that we can effectively use the court time.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
18 MR. IVETIC: We still have time, don't we?
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break now.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic. Let's leave it at yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: Just continuing my --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
6 MR. IVETIC: -- my examination.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Now we're in open session, ma'am, so again, I caution you as to
10 providing any details that might identify yourself.
11 With respect to OTP witness Hamdija Vilic, in a statement to the
12 Office of the Prosecutor, specifically I believe it's paragraph 5 of the
13 same, he says that during the war he lived in Zlijeb, Visegrad, together
14 with his family. Can you, based upon your knowledge, tell us what you
15 can about this?
16 A. Yes, I can. Hamdija Vilic did not live in Zlijeb. He had a
17 house in Prelovo. That's where he lived with his family. His house was
18 allegedly burned down, and in fact it was burned down, but what I know is
19 that his family was burnt in that house in Prelovo.
20 Q. Thank you. And again, I'm waiting for the transcript and
21 translations to catch up with you. What about -- again, without giving
22 more than the -- more than what is at minimum necessary, what about
23 Mr. Vilic's claim that you yourself are from Zavidovici?
2 MR. IVETIC: We may need a redaction. I don't know how large the
3 municipality she mentioned at line 20 is, but we may need to have that --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes --
5 MR. IVETIC: -- redacted.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- we can have that redacted.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
8 Q. Now, madam, with respect to Mr. Hamdija Vilic, in the time that
9 you've known him, has he gone by any nicknames, and if so what nicknames
10 has he gone by?
11 A. His nickname is Zuti, meaning yellow.
12 Q. And just so we can be sure that we're talking about the same
13 person, Mr. Hamdija Vilic, how would you describe him? Is there any
14 physical attribute that can differentiate him from any of his other
15 brothers or anyone else?
16 A. Well, he's different because he has yellow hair, sun spots on his
17 face. He does not have the lower arm.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure that the witness
19 said this, but apparently she did.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you say he does not have the lower arm?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He does not have one part of his
22 arm. The lower arm is missing on one side.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Do you have knowledge of whether Mr. Hamdija Vilic, nicknamed
25 Zuti, was in fact a combatant of the Bosnian Muslim army and/or a
1 commander of any unit in 1992?
2 A. Yes, he was, from what I know.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to also ask you a bit more about him. Do you have
4 knowledge or information about the incident that was raised during
5 Mr. Vilic's testimony, his conviction and his gaol sentence after the
7 A. I do know he was convicted after the war for two murders and for
8 wounding I believe three persons with a hand grenade.
9 Q. And these persons that were either murdered or wounded, what
10 ethnic or national identity were the victims of Hamdija Vilic?
11 A. Muslims.
12 Q. And with respect to Mr. Hamdija Vilic, did you at any time tell
13 Mr. Vilic that you were to be a witness for the Defence of
14 Mr. Milan
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Were you afraid of Mr. Vilic, and if so, why?
17 A. Well, I was afraid and I am still afraid of him because he's the
18 kind of person that he is, if he killed some of his fellow combatants,
19 former fellow combatants, with a hand grenade in a bar and he's never
20 sober. He's constantly hanging around bars and drinking. And during the
21 war, his brothers and he were notorious were brawls and excesses.
22 Q. You mentioned his brothers. Could you give us a little more
23 detail about your familiarity of his siblings, names and what you know
24 about them.
25 A. The eldest brother is called Adem. He lives in Sarajevo. He,
1 too, lost a leg in the war. Another brother, Hasan, lives in Austria
2 And there is also Hussein, who allegedly got killed. And another one
3 died before the war while serving in the army. His name was
4 Ramzija [phoen].
5 Q. Did there come a time when Mr. Hamdija Vilic requested to meet at
6 your home with members of the Defence team of Milan Lukic?
7 A. Yes. He asked to meet with the Defence counsel of Milan Lukic,
8 and he said in those words, I can't meet with them in Sarajevo because
9 the balijas - using that term - are following me everywhere in Sarajevo
10 I would be in danger; I want to be a protected witness; and if I can
11 come, I can only accept to meet them at your place.
12 Q. Do you recall the time frame or the day or the month when this
13 meeting in question took place?
14 A. I cannot remember exactly the date. That was the same date when
15 I gave a statement. My statement was given on that day.
16 Q. And was Mr. Hamdija Vilic present in the room when you were
17 meeting with the members of the Defence team and they were taking your
19 A. No. Hamdija Vilic was in a different room with my husband, and I
20 was in a different room. Also, music was playing, and he was not able to
21 hear anything.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Vilic -- Mr. Hamdija Vilic claimed here under oath and
23 under penalty of perjury that there was an American attorney and a
24 Serbian attorney present from the Milan Lukic Defence team that day at
25 your home and that the American spoke Serbian badly. I ask you, madam,
1 were there any American attorneys in your house that day?
2 A. There were no American lawyers in my home. Both counsel spoke
3 Serbian. I doubt that either of them spoke English at all, and these two
4 were of Serbian ethnicity.
5 Q. And did these members of the Defence team of Milan Lukic
6 introduce themselves to both yourself and to Mr. Hamdija Vilic?
7 A. Yes, they did.
8 Q. And how did they introduce themselves to you?
9 A. They introduced themselves as a team of investigators and
10 counsel. One was Vlado or Vladimir
11 one was Mihailo.
12 Q. And did in fact Mr. Hamdija Vilic on that occasion volunteer to
13 be a witness for the defence of Milan Lukic and meet with these members
14 of the Defence team?
15 A. Yes. He asked to appear as a witness, but he didn't want to meet
16 with them in Sarajevo
17 although he was not a very close relative and I didn't really feel like
18 receiving anyone at my house. I expressed my wish to go to Sarajevo
19 when he said he wasn't willing to meet with Sarajevo [as interpreted], I
20 told the lawyers that they should come to my house instead.
21 Q. Mr. Hamdija Vilic has made an allegation that he was offered
22 100.000 Euros for him to testify. What can you tell us about this?
23 A. Nobody offered him a single dinar, let alone 100.000. But before
24 the lawyers came, he was saying he was willing to come here and give
25 evidence and everything, but he says then, Five heads in my family are
1 missing, each one of them is worth 20.000, so if they are willing to pay
2 100.000, then I'll come and testify.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we can perhaps have the tape
4 checked later. I believe she said [B/C/S spoken], testify as to the
5 truth, at the end of that, but that -- I don't want to take up time
6 doing that now with asking her to repeat it.
7 Q. How did the persons present in your house react to
8 Mr. Hamdija Vilic's demand to be paid 100.000 Euros to come and testify
9 at the Tribunal?
10 A. They were flabbergasted. They said, We have nothing more to talk
11 about with you. If that's the way it is, there's nothing to talk about.
12 We don't pay witnesses, and we can't give you any money.
13 Q. Did Mr. Vilic at that -- at some point in time leave your home,
14 and when I say Mr. Vilic, I mean Mr. Hamdija Vilic. Did he leave your
15 home, and what can you tell us about the taxi ride that he, at least in
16 his statement, talked about, which I guess he's testified that it really
17 was his vehicle and no taxi.
18 A. Sorry. Yes, he came in his own car, a ramshackle
19 Volkswagen Golf. He parked his car there, and when I had to go and have
20 my statement notarized in court, I asked him to wait a little. I told
21 him, Wait a while while I get some food. Don't go. And then my husband
22 later told me that as soon as I had left, he said, I want to leave now,
23 immediately, will you please move your car. I want to go.
24 Q. Did you tell Mr. Hamdija Vilic that you were going to have your
25 statement notarized?
1 A. No. I told him I was going to town. Since they were going back,
2 I'll use that to get a ride to get some food because all I had was some
3 frozen meat and I couldn't wait for it to defrost. I wanted to do some
4 shopping and get something to eat.
5 Q. You said "since they were going back." Who is the "they" that
6 you reference?
7 A. The lawyers, the Defence counsel. Since they were going back, I
8 meant to go to town with them. I didn't tell him why I was going to
9 town. Instead, I told him I was going to buy some food.
10 Q. And madam, after this incident in your home, did
11 Mr. Hamdija Vilic have occasion to contact you subsequently?
12 A. He called me only once on the telephone. I answered, and he
13 asked me, Are the lawyers calling you? I said, No, why would they? And
14 I said nothing more. I just hung up.
15 Q. How did you interpret and regard this telephone call from
16 Mr. Hamdija Vilic?
17 A. Well, my thinking was, as soon as he called me, that he had been
18 to the Office of the Prosecutor or perhaps some other organizations down
19 there to make that telephone call, that he was not calling from home,
20 because otherwise he never called me.
21 Q. Was that before or after he testified here at the Tribunal, if
22 you know?
23 A. Before.
24 Q. Did Mr. Hamdija Vilic ever tell you anything that would lead you
25 to believe that he was involved with either the Bosnian or the
1 Tribunal Prosecutor's Office?
2 A. Yes. Precisely when I talked to him before he came to my house,
3 he told me that Bakira and I don't know who else were taking him to
4 Visegrad every day practically for tours and I don't know what, and he
5 said, They are harassing me, I have to go there every day.
6 Q. Could you please enlighten --
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: We're going into an entire area here that I -- this
10 is -- I mean, I'm aghast. I just have absolutely no notice of it. The
11 only reference that we have in the 65 ter summary is MLD10 will further
12 address the testimony of VG-138. That's hardly a summary of -- or an
13 adequate summary of what we're hearing now. I mean, we should certainly
14 have been given notice that she's -- about the kind of evidence that
15 she's giving here now. I mean, how am to be I able to prepare for this?
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for the record, Hamdija Vilic was
17 previously identified to us as VG-138. However, no protective measures
18 were sought for him, and he testified under his formal name here in
19 court. The 65 ter notice that we provided for this witness, that we had
20 indicated would be a live witness, was that she would address and rebut
21 the testimony of Hamdija Vilic. They have opened the door by bringing in
22 Mr. Vilic to make -- for that wide series of very serious allegations
23 against the members of the team, the members -- witnesses, and they full
24 well knew considering Mr. Vilic in his testimony mentioned this witness
25 multiple times, in his statement mentioned this witness multiple times.
1 To say that they were not put on notice, that this witness when she was
2 brought here to testify would testify as to Mr. Vilic, attack those
3 spurilous allegations of Mr. Vilic, address the character of Mr. Vilic,
4 and address reasons why he might be lying or testifying untruthfully when
5 he was here is simply baffling. He knew full well that we were attacking
6 Mr. Vilic's representations and his testimony, and they knew that this
7 witness was --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Groome, in our view, you have
9 had enough notice.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. Now, madam, I'd like to back up, and I have to -- I apologize, I
12 have to scroll up to see where we left off before the objection. Let me
13 see if you had finished. Yes.
14 You mentioned in your response at page 39, lines 19 through 22,
15 that Bakira and others were taking him to Visegrad every day. Do you
16 have knowledge of this individual that he identified as Bakira? Can you
17 give us any further information as to the identity of this Bakira?
18 A. Bakira is a woman from Visegrad who is involved with Muslims, the
19 victims. That's what I know, that she's discharging those duties. I
20 don't know any details about her. I know that she's doing that because
21 when my brother's funeral was, she attended it.
22 Q. To your knowledge, is she part of any group or organization?
23 A. Yes. She is in this group for the exhumation of the dead,
24 dealing with those issues in general, for the Muslims, the missing
25 Muslims, something like that. I don't know what it's called, but I know
1 that that's what she does because she was in this organization when my
2 brother was buried in Sarajevo
3 Q. And ma'am, now, what about the allegations and testimony of
4 Mr. Vilic. I believe in open court but also in his statement,
5 specifically, paragraph 18 of his statement, where he claimed that in
6 your house the members of the Milan Lukic Defence team had a bag of money
7 the size of a laptop computer. Did you see anything of that sort in your
8 house the day when Hamdija Vilic met with members of the Defence team of
10 A. They didn't have anything else in their trunk. Vladimir had a
11 backpack with a laptop and nothing else. Mihailo didn't have anything.
12 He didn't carry anything. Vlado was in a pair of shorts. Vlado [as
13 interpreted] was wearing jeans, so I didn't see them bring in anything
15 Q. And did they in fact use the laptop computer?
16 A. Yes. They used it to take my statement.
17 Q. Now, Witness MLD10, have you ever been offered money by any
18 member of the Defence team of Milan Lukic to testify?
19 A. No, never. No one. And no one ever does that, and there
20 wouldn't have been any need because I wouldn't have come here had anyone
21 offered me any money. Even if I had more money, I would have offered
22 some for Milan Lukic's Defence, to assist with his defence. I would go
23 that far. I would never, ever accept any money. I don't need any money.
24 I have a regular income. I have enough money.
25 Q. Now I'd like to move to a different area. Apart from the fears
1 that you have expressed as to Hamdija Vilic, have you had occasion to
2 experience any threat, intimidation, or pressure from third or unknown
3 persons; and if so, what form did that activity take?
4 A. Yes. At one point in time, my home phone kept ringing all the
5 time, and then I would hear this sound in the phone, and then they would
6 say, You will see where you will go back to. I didn't know at that
7 time -- well, I didn't know who that was because they didn't say their
8 name. It lasted for about 15 days. I had to go and get the cordless
9 phone to be able to get caller ID. But ever since I have been using the
10 cordless phone, I have not received any calls of that nature.
11 Q. And have you had anything else of this nature occur apart from
12 the telephone -- the unknown telephone calls?
13 A. Well, I was in a situation to notice unknown vehicles pass by my
14 house because I knew all the people from the neighbourhood passing by. I
15 know their vehicles, and I know those persons. But recently, I have been
16 seeing cars that I have not seen before, cars that pass by.
17 Q. Now, madam, without mentioning that person's name in open
18 session, could you tell us, what happened with the support person that
19 was supposed to travel and accompany you -- travel with and accompany you
20 here to The Hague
21 A. She was supposed to travel with me and be my escort, but when I
22 was supposed to get a copy of her passport to send it in for a visa
23 application, she simply gave up, and she said, Well, I don't want to, I
24 don't dare, I can't. She didn't want to give me the reason why, and
25 throughout the time she -- previous time, she kept saying that she would
1 accompany me.
2 Q. Your Honours, I would like to go into private session to go into
3 more details as to this with respect -- with the aim of protecting the
4 identity of this witness and also the third party.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 3982-3988 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
7 Q. Madam, my name is Dermot Groome, and I'll be asking you some
8 questions, and I, too, will refer to you as MLD10 to protect your
9 identity. The first question I'd like to ask you is: How old were you
10 when you left Rujiste?
11 A. Well, I was probably 34, something like that.
12 Q. The area that you've described as the area that you came from,
13 are you also familiar with the area that's referred to as Zupa?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that witness -- that Defence Exhibit
16 1D 94 be placed on the ELMO beside the witness, and I ask that she be
17 given a blue pen. I see that you've used a red pen for the markings.
18 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to ask that you be shown one of the maps that
19 you made markings on earlier.
20 MR. ALARID: Your Honour --
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MR. GROOME: Madam, I'm advised it would be difficult to do that
23 now, so I'm going to go to another area of inquiry, and they're going to
24 try to --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
1 MR. ALARID: To assist the Prosecutor, the two maps were finally
2 up loaded into e-court and we could probably give them the numbers and
3 work with the digital copies.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please do that.
5 MR. ALARID: 1D 22-5303 and 1D 22-5304.
6 MR. GROOME: If I might just inquire, I only want to work with
7 the one that has the broader area. Which one is that?
8 MR. ALARID: The first one.
9 MR. GROOME: So I'd ask that 1D 22-5303 be called up in e-court.
10 Q. Ma'am, you should see that in the screen in front of you. I
11 believe it'll be to your right, and if I could ask, with the assistance
12 of the usher, that the pen be made in blue so, again, we know that it's
13 your markings.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy has an announcement to make
16 about the map.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are unable to locate the maps in
18 e-court yet. I would suggest that the Prosecution would make the
19 markings in blue on the same Defence exhibit, and I will cross-reference
20 this for the record.
21 MR. GROOME: Thank you. Sensible solution.
22 Q. If that could be placed, it will be placed in hard copy, like you
23 saw it before. You'll be given a blue pen, and as that's being prepared
24 for you, what I would ask you to precisely as you're able if the area
25 known as Zupa is on that map, would you please draw the boundary of it or
1 the approximate boundary of it.
2 A. All this area from Zupa [as interpreted] up to the last stop,
3 Kamenica, further up from Rujiste, is called Zupa. I don't know how to
4 mark it. It's a whole area from Visegrad to the last bus stop at
5 Kamenica. This whole area is called Zupa.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: At page 53, line 2,
7 it should read, "All this area from Visegrad up to the last stop."
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Ma'am, before you make any mark, is it your testimony that
10 everything depicted on the map is Zupa, or is it on one side of the Drina
11 or the other? Let me just understand how you define Zupa before I ask
12 you to make any marks.
13 A. To the right of the Drina River, all the villages from Visegrad
14 to Rujiste. All the areas -- all the villages around this area are
15 called Zupa.
16 Q. So I would then ask you with the blue pen to please draw a line
17 around the approximate boundaries of Zupa and just write "Zupa" inside
19 A. Well, this whole area here. The only thing I can do is just
20 extend this line here, to circle this area down to Visegrad.
21 Q. If you would do that, please.
22 A. This whole area to the right, from Rujiste to Visegrad. You have
23 the mountains here, the hills, and all those villages are part of Zupa.
24 Q. Yes. Please circle all the villages that are part of Zupa,
25 please. They don't have be individual circles. Just one large circle to
1 encompass all of Zupa.
2 A. Well, that's what I said. It's all the way up, but in fact, the
3 problem is that this pen is not working. This whole region to the right
4 of the Drina River all the way up to Rujiste and Kamenica. It's called
6 Q. We're getting you a working pen now.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
8 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, just -- in dyslexia I misspoke.
9 It's 1D 220503 is electronic and 0503, not 5303.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Maybe we'll find it now.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of this down to Visegrad. Yes,
12 well, like this. To Visegrad, our people call all this area Zupa.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, you asked her to use a blue pen?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't really all that
15 precise, but this whole area here.
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: The blue pen is so close to the colour.
18 MR. GROOME: I thought a red pen was used before.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I know, but I'm just saying it's not very
21 easy to distinguish it from the colour of the rest of the map. Anyway,
22 we can proceed.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Could I ask you simply to write now "Zupa" inside the circle that
25 you've drawn.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And just so the record is clear, Zupa is the area from Visegrad
3 town going northward to Rujiste on the right bank of the Drina River
4 that correct? Or the eastern bank of the Drina River
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm finished with that exhibit.
7 Now, how long has your family --
8 MR. GROOME: Actually, can we go into private session for this.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 3994-3995 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Madam, we're in public session. If I ask you any question that
20 you think you would need to give information that would reveal your
21 identity, please let me know before you answer. When did Milan Lukic
22 leave the area?
23 A. Well, Milan Lukic left even before the 1990s. I know he went to
24 Switzerland. He lived there for a while.
25 Q. Are you able to approximate the year that he left?
1 A. I can't, because I didn't meet with him, so I couldn't tell you
2 which year. I don't know.
3 Q. From the time that he left Rujiste or Visegrad until the time you
4 say you saw him on June of 1992, had you seen him during that time
6 A. I saw him once again in 1990, and I didn't even recognize him on
7 that occasion. I asked the brother who was with me, Who is this boy,
8 because he had grown up so fast, and my brother said, It's Milan Lukic.
9 I'm sorry. What caught my eye was that he was so nicely dressed, so
10 handsome, tall. I hadn't seen him for a long time before that, and I
11 didn't recognize him immediately.
12 Q. After this time that you saw him in the company of your brother
13 in 1990, did you see him again before you saw him in June of 1992?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Since you saw him in June of 1992, have you seen him again, have
16 you been in his presence again until today?
17 A. No. I saw him on television once.
18 Q. Did you have any difficulty in recognizing him here in the
20 A. I did not have any difficulty. He's just older and heavier,
22 Q. When was the last time you had contact with any member of his
23 family in Rujiste?
24 A. That was before the war.
25 Q. And have you had any contact after the war?
1 A. That's before I left. No.
2 Q. So even on those occasions when you say you'd like to return to
3 the family property once a year, you don't call in on the Lukic family
4 and see how they're doing and have a cup of coffee or something to that
6 A. Well, I don't know whether they're there still at all. I don't
7 know whether they're still in Rujiste or not. I know nothing about that
8 because I never went back, not even after the war to Rujiste. I once
9 went to Prelovo to get my birth certificate and the certificate of
10 citizenship, and I never went any further.
11 Q. So ma'am, is it your evidence that you've never returned to see
12 your property in Rujiste. Is that correct?
13 A. Not since the war ended, never.
14 Q. And who has told you that the house was overgrown and the
15 condition that you described? Who gave you that information?
16 A. My stepmother went there and my brother and my father while he
17 was still alive.
18 Q. Now, I want to ask you about your statement. In paragraph 4 of
19 your statement, you say the following: "I met with Milan at the agreed
20 time and place," and this is in reference to your meeting on the 10th of
21 June. "I met with Milan at the agreed time and place. He told me he had
22 driven over some Muslim friends of him who were from the area of Visegrad
23 and that he did not have much time, that his mother was in the car
24 waiting for him to go back to Bosnia
25 My question to you is, is it your testimony that Milan Lukic told
1 you that the people that he had driven from Visegrad were friends of his?
2 A. Yes. He said he had brought with him some people - Muslims,
3 that's how he explained it - from the area Visegrad. As to whether they
4 were his friends or not, that he didn't say.
5 Q. So in your statement taken earlier this year where you say: "He
6 told me that he had driven over some Muslim friends of his ...", that is
7 something that you're no longer sure he said to you?
8 A. I know he said Muslims, and I don't remember about friends. It's
9 possible that he said Muslim friends, but I don't recall that.
10 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to ask that the statement be put up before you
11 so you can take a look at it. It is 1D 22-0090, and again, it should
12 appear on the screen to your right. And when it does appear, it's the
13 last sentence of the paragraph.
14 Have you been able to read the passage I'm referring to?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you agree with me that in the statement that you gave a few
17 months ago that you did say that Milan Lukic told you that they were his
19 A. Yes, I agree that I stated that. I did say Muslim friends, but
20 maybe I added that. He didn't say whether he -- whether they were his
21 friends or not. He said Muslims.
22 Q. And you have a specific recollection today as you sit here that
23 he did not use the word "friends." Is that what you're saying now?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In paragraph 5 of your statement, and I believe it'll be left up
1 on the screen, so feel free to refer to it, you say that after you asked
2 Milan Lukic to say hello to his mother, that he took you over to a car,
3 and I quote: "Milan took me to a blue car, opened the co-driver's door,
4 helped his mother out to say hello to me." Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Had you ever seen that car before?
7 A. You mean his car, that particular car, or a car like that?
8 Q. That particular car.
9 A. No, I had not.
10 Q. Do you have a clear recollection that it was blue?
11 A. Yes, that much I remember.
12 Q. Are you able to describe anything else about the car, the make,
13 the model, anything else?
14 A. No. No, I don't know because I didn't pay attention. It wasn't
15 important to me. I don't normally look at makes of cars.
16 Q. Now, let me read another portion of your statement from paragraph
17 5, in which you describe a conversation with Milan Lukic's mother: "She
18 said Milan had driven her to Belgrade for some medical check-ups." Do
19 you remember saying that in your statement?
20 A. Yes. I remember that.
21 Q. Now, in your testimony here today at page 19, line 4, you --
22 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry. I just realized that the statement
23 that's up on the screen I hope is not being published. It's got the
24 unredacted name of the witness.
25 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will not be broadcasted.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Ma'am, I'd like to ask you about something you said earlier today
3 at transcript page 19, line 4, records you as saying: "He" -- referring
4 to Milan Lukic, "he told me that his mother was supposed to undergo some
5 check-ups or some examinations on the 7th and that is why he had come to
7 those appointments were for the 7th?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you quite sure about that date?
10 A. Yes. I am sure about that date because when I called Draginja,
11 his sister, she said Milan was there, that she had ultrasound exam
12 appointment for the 7th, that he was out, but as soon as he comes back
13 she'll tell him to call me back.
14 Q. Was there any conversation about what ailment Mrs. Lukic was
15 suffering from? And if it's something of a personal nature, then please
16 let us -- tell us and we'll go into private session.
17 A. I think it was something with her kidneys, a stone in the kidneys
18 that needed to be examined by ultrasound.
19 Q. So Milan Lukic told you that he's bringing his mother for an
20 ultrasound examination and he's bringing her to Belgrade to have that
21 done. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes. That is correct.
23 Q. Did he tell you why he was taking her to Belgrade for the
24 ultrasound rather than the hospital that was in Visegrad itself?
25 A. Honestly, I didn't ask, and I am doubtful that we had that sort
1 of thing in Visegrad. It's a small hospital, and if you needed the
2 smallest thing we were referred to Uzice, Foca, Belgrade, any other
3 place. Only the most basic things could be treated in Visegrad.
4 Q. You've mentioned Uzice. There's a full hospital in the town of
5 Uzice. Is that not correct?
6 A. It's not really large, but there is a hospital in Uzice.
7 Q. And would you agree with me that that's much closer to Visegrad
8 than Belgrade
9 A. I agree with you, but if you get a referral in Visegrad, Uzice
10 also cannot provide all the treatment that Belgrade can offer. Uzice is
11 mainly for hospitalization, for maternity, delivery, that sort of stuff.
12 Q. So it's your belief that Uzice might not have had the necessary
13 equipment to conduct an ultrasound examination. Is that your testimony?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. I want to go back and ask you some questions related to your
16 place of birth.
17 MR. GROOME: So I'd ask that we go into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 4003-4010 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Ma'am, I want to show you a list of names of people from the Zupa
4 area, and just if you could tell me whether you recognize any of the
6 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that 0645-5166 be put up on e-court.
7 Q. Can I ask you just to look over that list and after you've done,
8 if you could tell me whether or not you recognize any of the names on
9 that list.
10 A. No, I don't recognize any of the names.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit.
13 Q. I want to return now to your phone conversation with Milan Lukic.
14 At any time during the phone conversation with Milan Lukic or the time
15 that you met him in Novi Pazar, did you ever say to him, How does the
16 farm look, how do the livestock look, are they being cared for? Did you
17 ever ask him how things were on the farm?
18 A. I didn't ask him at all. I merely inquired about my family. I
19 didn't care about the livestock, and I didn't even assume that it was
20 there. I expected that the livestock had been taken care of. If they
21 had left, I assumed that they had taken the cattle with them, but I
22 didn't ask him that. I assumed that Lukic would not go to my house to
23 check because the houses had been torched, to check, to see whether
24 anything of the sort was there.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, can we perhaps redact page 74, lines 20
6 through to 24.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. I'd like to put to you some information that I have from the
10 government of Bosnia
11 that I have is that your brother was in Zepa from April 1992 until it
12 fell in July of 1995. Further, that he was a member of the Zepa Brigade
13 of the Army of the Federation of Bosnia, and that your family members
14 lived in a village called Pripecak near Zepa in a vacant house that
15 belonged to a person by the name of Avdo Ramic.
16 Ma'am, I want to ask you again and remind you of your obligation
17 to tell the truth here. Where was your brother in June of 1992?
18 A. In June 1992, my brother was still at Rujiste.
19 Q. So it's your position that any other information contrary to that
20 would be mistaken?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, I want to speak to you a moment about protective measures.
23 You have requested and you've been granted protective measures, which
24 make it impossible for anyone to know your identity. In the application
25 that was made on your behalf, the following was stated: "In particular,
1 she is afraid of Muslim nationalists, in particular, her" -- and the
2 relative that I think you know who I'm referring to, I won't identify it
3 more precisely than that -- "who is an extreme nationalist and related to
4 some fire victims listed in the present indictment. This relative has a
5 propensity of violence proved by his conviction for killing three
6 individuals following the war."
7 You testified today that this person was convicted of -- or
8 killed two people. Which is it? Is it two or is it three?
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that calls for speculation. She's not
10 the author of a submission made by the Defence team at the point where
11 counsel had just gotten into the case and had to meet the deadlines of
12 doing the alibi disclosure -- the protective measures disclosures.
13 It's -- and she said, I believe, in transcript two -- three. So
14 Mr. Groome, if you'd cite the transcript, maybe you'd alleviate the
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but she can clarify that. She's not the
17 author of the request for protective measures, but it concerns her. I
18 think she's in a position to provide the evidence.
19 MR. IVETIC: But she's testified three today, so Mr. Groome is
20 misstating her evidence.
21 MR. GROOME: I apologize. I thought she said two.
22 MR. ALARID: Page 35, line 1.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. So it three that -- three people that he killed?
25 A. Based on the knowledge that I have, the information that I have,
1 I don't know how accurate it was. I heard that two people were killed
2 and three people were wounded and he himself were wounded, too, as the
3 fourth person. They were all BH army members, fighters, soldiers.
4 Q. So it's two people killed and three people wounded. That's your
5 testimony today?
6 A. Yes. That's the information that I have. Now, I can't vouch for
7 the accuracy of this information because I didn't have the indictment in
8 front of me, the indictment containing the charges against him, but
9 basically that was the incident. That's the knowledge that I have, and I
10 know that he served time in prison for that.
11 Q. Okay. And then last week, I received a letter from Mr. Alarid
12 saying that Mr. Vilic had killed five and injured 22. So to the
13 knowledge that you have, that's incorrect. Is that not --
14 MR. ALARID: And I would object as to the Prosecutor putting a
15 letter from me or anything in that. That's my supposition, and that was
16 not communicated by this, and I think it's an improper question of the
17 witness. Based on information that I had heard, but we're trying to get
18 the indictment and the judgement and sentence as we speak. We're
19 probably making a Rule 54 application for said judgement and sentence.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why are you putting a letter from counsel?
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this witness has been called to provide
22 this information about Mr. Vilic, and what I am demonstrating is here is
23 that it seems that it goes from two to three to five to 22 injured. I
24 want to explore with this witness, is it she that's exaggerating? True,
25 it is a supposition of Mr. Alarid, and that's my objection to the serious
1 allegations, not only in this particular case not against the Prosecution
2 but against a man who testified here that he killed three more people
3 than he was convicted for. I believe I'm entitled to put to this
4 witness, did she ever tell Mr. Alarid or Mr. Ivetic --
5 MR. ALARID: She didn't.
6 MR. GROOME: -- that --
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I don't know. This -- she has not
8 testified to the five. That's not even in evidence. Mr. Groome just
9 brought it in. I don't understand what he's doing with this -- with
10 this -- he's trying to back-door in his own actions as being the basis
11 for his questions. I've never heard of that before.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can put the statement in Mr. Alarid's letter
13 to her [sic] but not what she told Mr. Alarid.
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. Did you ever state to anyone that Mr. Vilic had killed five
16 people and injured 22 people?
17 A. Never to anyone, and I never made any statements or entered into
18 any polemics or anything. The only thing that I did was I gave a
19 statement to the Defence counsel who came to get a statement from me in
20 defence of Milan Lukic. I never gave any statements anywhere else to
22 Q. Now, going back to --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. I just see on the transcript where I
24 said, "You can put the statement in Mr. Alarid's letter to her." That
25 should have been Mr. Alarid's letter to you, because that's what you
1 said. So if I said that, I misspoke.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Now, again, where you say you were afraid of Muslim nationalists,
4 when Mr. Ivetic asked you to describe what made you fearful, what made
5 you feel intimidated, the first thing you said was that you had many
6 phone calls on your phone, no one ever said anything, but you had many
7 phone calls that you found suspicious. Is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And once you got a cordless phone, it seemed that the problem was
10 corrected. Is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And then the other thing that you found suspicious or
13 intimidating or you feared was that you saw vehicles drive down your
14 street that you did not recognize. Is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Did you ever file a report to the police about either of these
18 A. I did not because I did not want to. I did not want to reveal
19 myself as a witness. That's why I never reported it.
20 Q. But certainly, couldn't you have just called the police and
21 said -- without revealing that you're a witness and said, I'm receiving
22 phone calls and I see cars that concern me?
23 A. Well, you know what? How could I report to the police that I'm
24 seeing unknown cars, unfamiliar cars? The police would tell me, Well,
25 it's a public road, anybody has the right to use it.
1 Q. What about seeing cars you did not recognize and having your
2 phone ring, no one answer? What made you think that you had something to
3 fear from Muslim nationalists?
4 A. Well, I thought that because all those cars were new cars that I
5 had never noticed passing by before, and I know the people who live
6 around me, people who normally pass by. I recognise them. None of them
7 have very new, shiny cars, so I thought these must be some services.
8 Q. Why not thieves or people engaged in any number of things in the
9 neighborhood? Why Muslim nationalists?
10 A. Thieves have no reason to do that because they have nothing to
11 steal. It's a rural area where people make their living on farming.
12 They have no capital for thieves to be interested in.
13 Q. Now, ma'am, isn't it correct that despite the protective
14 measures, just the content of your testimony here today, this relative
15 that I've referred to, it'll be clear to that person who are you. Is
16 that not correct?
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it's not an objection, but counsel --
18 if counsel, when that gentleman was here testifying, counsel gave him a
19 pseudonym sheet identifying this witness, so he definitely knows. And
20 when I say counsel, I mean whoever the Prosecutor was that was on direct
21 examination of Mr. Hamdija Vilic.
22 MR. GROOME: And I'm the one yesterday that was twice -- that was
23 accused of testifying. I think we've heard a bit of testimony from both
24 counsel. If I could just ask the question to --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask the question again.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Do you have any doubt that the person just by the nature of your
3 testimony will realize that it's you?
4 A. I don't know whether that person hearing what I said would
5 realize it's me, but I suppose he would because I heard that my brother
6 was receiving threats and other things.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be redacted.
19 MR. IVETIC: And I don't know, this is the first time in my --
20 and I'm going on, I think, nine or this is my 10th year, I believe -- 9th
21 year at the Tribunal, this is the first time I've heard witnesses being
22 asked about the protective measures and being attacked about the
23 protective measures that they've sought. That's under the Statute.
24 They're entitled to them --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down, please. Slow down, please.
1 MR. IVETIC: This honorable Trial Chamber is granted the
2 protective measures that were sought and I think the counsel's question
3 is, at this point, harassment of the witness rather than anything that
4 can be of probative value.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't agree at all. It's a perfectly proper
6 question in the circumstances. Answer the question, please.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Can you please answer the question?
9 A. You know what? If I were unable to receive protective
10 measures -- I sought them for my own safety, and my safety is still in
11 danger if anybody finds out that I appeared here as a witness. If I had
12 not been granted protective measures, then I would have come anyway, come
13 what may.
14 Q. I want to now ask you about MLD2, who's also scheduled to testify
15 in this case. Did you speak with him prior to coming to The Hague?
16 A. No.
17 Q. When is the last time you spoke with him?
18 A. Perhaps a year ago.
19 Q. And last week was an important Muslim holiday. You didn't call
20 him to exchange greetings or to wish him well?
21 A. I did not call him lest the information about my testifying
22 should leak, and he doesn't even know that I'm -- that I was to appear as
23 a witness.
24 Q. So it's your evidence that your -- MLD2 has no idea, or not at
25 least from you, that you are a witness in this case?
1 A. I'm sure he doesn't know.
2 Q. Why are you sure that he doesn't know?
3 A. Well, he doesn't know from me, for sure. I don't know if he
4 learned from someone else, but certainly not from me. He doesn't know
5 that I'm here or that I will testify.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness -- let us go into private session.
7 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Ma'am, you must be terribly frightened of Hamdija Vilic if he's
1 the reason why you haven't spoken to your brother in a year. Am I
2 correct in that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you've testified earlier that you never told Hamdija Vilic
5 that you were going to be a witness in this case. Is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. If you're so fearful of Hamdija Vilic, how is it when he asked
8 you to have a meeting with the Milan Defence team in your home, you
9 actually invite him into your home to have that meeting?
10 A. Well, I invited him because he said he would come to testify,
11 tell the truth, and give a statement to the lawyers. At that time, I had
12 nothing to fear, not in that connection because he agreed to come, and he
13 was the one who insisted he would only come to my house because he was
14 afraid of balijas, as he called them, in Sarajevo, because he is afraid
15 of Muslims just as I am, and he didn't want to meet with the lawyers in
17 Q. When's the last time you spoke to Hamdija Vilic before this day?
18 A. I talked to him when he called me - I don't know where from - and
19 he just said, Are the lawyers still in touch with you, are they calling
20 you, and I said, No, why would they, there's no need, and I hung up.
21 That's how long that conversation lasted, and that was the last time.
22 Q. I believe that phone call is after the meeting. What I'm talking
23 to you about is prior to the time that he called you up and says, Can I
24 meet with the lawyers in your home. Prior to that phone call, when's the
25 last time you spoke with Hamdija Vilic?
1 A. That phone call was before his coming here to testify, perhaps a
2 few days before, a couple of days before.
3 Q. Now, I'm talking to you about when did he call you up and request
4 for you to invite him to his [sic] home to have a meeting with the
5 Milan Lukic Defence team?
6 A. One day before, he met with the lawyers for the Defence. He said
7 he would come the next morning. I told him he's free to come the night
8 before and the stay the night in our house. Instead, he came the next
9 day, very early in the morning at 8 or 9.
10 Q. How did he know that the lawyers were going to be in your house
11 the next day?
12 A. Because I told him they were coming, and I asked him whether he
13 preferred for them to come to Sarajevo or for him to come over. It was
14 easier for the lawyers to go to Sarajevo, but he insisted that he
15 wouldn't meet them in Sarajevo, that he would meet them instead at my
17 Q. If he doesn't know that you're a witness in the case, why does he
18 call you to make contact with the Defence team?
19 A. Because I asked him if he was willing to -- in fact, the lawyers
20 asked me if Hamdija Vilic was going to testify. I conveyed that to him,
21 and he said, yes, he would, and that's why he got in touch with me to
22 contact them, because the lawyers did not have his number. They were not
23 able to contact him themselves.
24 Q. When did you ask Hamdija Vilic if he was willing to testify?
25 A. Just the day before the lawyers came, the day before he arrived
1 and the lawyers came to my house as well.
2 Q. And you called him and asked him whether he's willing to testify?
3 A. Yes, and he said he was willing, that he was going to testify.
4 Q. So, again -- let's see if I understand this. This person who you
5 are so fearful of that you have broken off contact with your brother, you
6 call him to ask him if he's willing to be a witness in the Milan Lukic
7 case, for the Defence, and you invite him to stay in your home, to sleep
8 there the night before the meeting. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes. But at that time, I had no reason to fear his visit. I
10 just asked him nicely if he wanted to be a witness. He said yes. He
11 just said that he wanted protection measures, that he wanted to testify
12 but not in public, and there was no problem. I had no reason to be
14 Q. But, ma'am, you've told us that you broke off contact -- or you
15 haven't had contact with your brother in a year, and it's because of his
16 relationship with Hamdija Vilic.
17 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, one of the --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because Hamdija Vilic lives
19 close --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. Let's hear counsel.
21 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I don't want to speak for Mr. Groome
22 but one of my fears is that this line of questioning began right at the
23 point where he asked him [sic], Did you call your brother for a Muslim
24 holiday, a recent one, and then that backed up into the year, I guess.
25 And I want to know if there's some confusion and if counsel could clarify
1 for the witness.
2 MR. IVETIC: And it misstates her testimony as saying she was
3 only afraid of Hamdija Vilic.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm now confused. Proceed, Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Ma'am, there seems to be some confusion over what you're giving
7 evidence about now, so let me see if I can clarify it. As you sit here,
8 taking today's date, is it true that have you not spoken to your brother,
9 MLD2, for one year?
10 A. Correct. Correct. I stand behind -- by what I said. I have not
11 talked to my brother in that time.
12 Q. Now, when Judge Robinson asked you why that was, did you not say
13 that that was because of your brother's relationship with Hamdija Vilic,
14 who you are fearful of?
15 A. Correct. Hamdija Vilic lives close to my brother. He calls on
16 him often. They are friends, and that's why I do not dare contact my
17 brother. My brother might say that I talked to him, and he might reveal
18 that I was going to be a witness. That's why I did not contact him.
19 There's no other reason.
20 Q. And when you had the meeting with the Defence team, the date that
21 I've been told that occurred was sometime in June, when you had that
22 meeting, the night before -- or I'm sorry. You invited Hamdija Vilic to
23 stay in your home, to sleep in your home, in advance of that meeting,
25 A. Yes, unless he's able to come early in the morning, I told him,
1 You can come and stay the night. I invited him as a relative because he
2 had said already he was going to be a witness.
3 Q. Ma'am, I put it to you that the reason that you no longer speak
4 to your brother is that you were paid 21.000 Euros to secure his
5 testimony, that you only gave him 5.000 Euros of the money that you
6 received and you kept the rest, and that when he found out about that he
7 became very angry with you and he has refused to speak with you. Isn't
8 that really what's happened here?
9 A. That's not true. I never received, not only 21.000 Euros, I
10 never received a single mark. As for Hamdija Vilic and his ilk are
11 making up, has he seen me get any money? I don't understand what kind of
12 story that is.
13 Q. Ma'am, it's not only Hamdija Vilic. There is another person who
14 makes a very similar claim. Are you denying that you've received any
15 money -- let's just confine ourselves to MLD2. Are you denying that you
16 received any money to secure the testimony of MLD2?
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, there's no foundation for the question
18 unless he specifies who the other person is and the basis for the same.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is: "Are you denying that you
20 received any money to secure the testimony of MLD2?"
21 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why does that need a foundation?
23 MR. IVETIC: Well, because it's tied together with his previous
24 statement that says, "Ma'am, it's not only Hamdija Vilic. There's
25 another person who makes a very similar claim." If counsel is going to
1 make a representation like that, I'd like to get a citation.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but the question itself isn't necessarily
3 relate to that. The witness can answer it.
4 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please answer.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand. Which question
7 am I supposed to answer?
8 MR. GROOME: If it assists the Court, I'll --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Reformulate, and then we'll have to stop
10 after this.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Ma'am, I'm putting it to you as plainly as I can that you have
13 received money in order to buy the testimony of your brother, MLD2, and
14 that the reason that he no longer speaks with you is because he
15 discovered that you kept some of the money that you were given to buy his
16 testimony. He feels cheated by you and no longer wants to come and
17 testify. Is that not true?
18 A. That's not true. My brother was a witness and said would be a
19 witness even before I knew it. Even before I was aware of such a
20 possibility, he told me that he was going to come to testify. He was the
21 one who volunteered the information. I heard from him that he was going
22 to be a witness.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, we're going to adjourn. I have some
24 matters to deal with. Witness, that concludes your testimony for today.
25 For today. You will have to return when we resume in January, and that
1 will be Wednesday, January 14th, at 2.15 p.m. Wednesday, January the
3 Now, I have to tell you that during the break, this will be a
4 break of about three and a half weeks, you are not to discuss your
5 evidence with anybody. Do you understand that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may leave now.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid.
10 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, my concern is this, is we have the
11 witness here, and I'm not sure what Mr. Groome had in terms of additional
12 cross-examination, but it seems wasteful if it wasn't going to be
13 significant that we don't complete it before the witness leaves town,
14 considering the long break. It's not just a weekend. It's three and a
15 half weeks.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, how much more did you have in
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do have a fair bit, and if you'll
19 recall from earlier on, with some of the surprises that occurred during
20 the testimony, I would like the benefit of the additional time.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So the position will remain the same. I
22 have a decision to give. On the 12th of December, 2008, the Prosecution
23 filed a motion seeking an order to bar the alibi-related evidence of
24 several witnesses for Milan Lukic in total or in part. The Prosecution
25 argues that the Defence of Milan Lukic has not met its obligations to
1 notify the Prosecution of the alibi witnesses pursuant to Rule 67.
2 The motion is premature in view of the fact that the final
3 witness list of Milan Lukic is to be filed by the 5th of January, 2009.
4 It is therefore dismissed without prejudice to the Prosecution making
5 further witness-specific objections if necessary once the witness list
6 has been filed.
7 The Trial Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's request -- I
8 should have said that that's the end of that decision. The second matter
9 is this. The Trial Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's request for
10 clarification of confidential classification of contempt proceedings and
11 motion to leave to exceed word limit in response to oral submissions of
12 9th December, 2008
13 was filed on the 16th of December. The Chamber orders the Defence to
14 file its response to the remaining matter contained in this motion,
15 namely the clarification of confidential classification of contempt
16 proceedings by 4 p.m.
17 Now, I want to say additionally that we have had some exchanges
18 between counsel which have been -- I describe them as relatively heated.
19 I don't want to have a repetition. I am fully accustomed to vigorous
20 Prosecution and vigorous Defence, but I expect counsel to behave with
21 equanimity. Counsel should always remember that counsel is an officer of
22 the court, whose primary duty is the pursuit of justice and to assist the
23 Chamber in its work. So I do not wish to have a repeat of the heated
24 exchanges which have taken place between counsel.
25 Is there any other matter?
1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. It's a matter that I raised
2 yesterday, and it's the difficulty of preparing for our work when we
3 still don't have the witness list. Under the rules, it should have been
4 provided prior to the commencement of trial. Now we're going to -- it
5 seems like we're going to receive it well beyond that and just prior to
6 restarting. Again, I bear the burden of disproving this alibi, and it's
7 very difficult to do that without the witness list as required by the
8 rules. I'm therefore requesting, I know there are a number of things
9 that the Chamber's order had required of the Defence by the
10 5th of January, including better summaries. I would ask to request that
11 the Chamber prior to the break, prior to tomorrow afternoon, that Defence
12 be required at least to tell us who the 45 witnesses that they are going
13 to call so that we can begin our preparations. Right now, it stands at
14 90. As I said yesterday, it's a tremendous waste of resources. It's
15 difficult to do with people taking their holidays over the break for me
16 to have people working on this. It puts us at a disadvantage. It's
17 against the rules, and I would ask you to at least require them to let us
18 know who the witnesses are.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
21 MR. ALARID: Respectfully, Your Honour, we would simply ask that
22 the January 5th order that's in place or the order for January 5th final
23 witness list be kept in place. Mr. Ivetic is going to be working over
24 the holidays in the region trying to do exactly what the Court requests,
25 and we anticipate being able to comply with the Court with that time.
1 Doing it by tomorrow would make it really difficult for us to comply with
2 the Court's request today that we file before 4 p.m. tomorrow as well as
3 Judge Bonomy who's required submissions by tomorrow as well. So, under
4 the -- the totality of the circumstances, I don't think the state's
5 particularly prejudiced considering the trial began in this case on
6 July 9th, and they didn't file their final witness list until July 17th,
7 and there were several motions to amend that list over the course of time
8 that we dealt with appropriately. So in a grand-scheme-of-things
9 approach, it would be disingenuous for us to say we can get that done by
10 tomorrow without probably stepping on our own toes a little bit later,
11 considering it's premature for us as well.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we're trying to find a fair solution,
14 Mr. Alarid and Mr. Groome, and we think it is this, that the Defence be
15 required to file the first ten witnesses by the 26th of December and the
16 remaining 35 by the 5th of January, by the 5th of January.
17 MR. ALARID: We can do that, Your Honour. Absolutely.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We are adjourned, and have a
19 merry Christmas.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
22 January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.