Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3937

 1                           Thursday, 18 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Today in the absence of Judge David,

 6     Judge Van Den Wyngaert and I sit pursuant to the provisions of

 7     Rule 15 bis.

 8             Did you have a matter, Mr. Groome?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  Your Honours, I want

10     to take a few minutes to address two issues with the Trial Chamber.

11     First, last night just before midnight and just after midnight, the

12     Defence disclosed two additional exhibits to the Prosecution.  I'm not

13     objecting to the introduction or disclosure of these exhibits, but do

14     want to note for the record the lateness of them since it has been raised

15     as an issue in the Prosecution case, and of course, we're not sure what

16     appeals might be taken in this case.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There are similar late disclosures by the

18     Prosecution, if I remember.  Probably not as late as midnight, but the

19     day before.

20             MR. GROOME:  Well, yes, Your Honour.  That's why I'm not

21     objecting to them, but it seems that might important to note for the

22     record.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, for the record, the exhibits at issue

24     are two maps of the area and a photograph.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 3938

 1             MR. GROOME:  I have yet to received the photograph.  If that

 2     could be disclosed now.

 3             MR. ALARID:  It's already in evidence.

 4             MR. GROOME:  The second matter, Your Honour, I'd like to raise

 5     with the Chamber is what I consider as some unfortunate advocacy by the

 6     Milan Lukic Defence team, and I want to request that the Chamber give

 7     some consideration to a suggestion that I wish to make.  If the Chamber

 8     would be kind enough to give consideration to it over the recess.

 9             Judge Robinson, you were in New York last week at meetings in the

10     United Nations headquarters, and I do not know if you have had time to

11     review the transcript since your return.  During a presentation on the

12     9th of December, Mr. Alarid spent over an hour asserting dozens of

13     allegations not only addressed at the Prosecution but against others as

14     well.

15             I accepted Judge Van Den Wyngaert's suggestion to respond in

16     writing, and I will not take any time today to do so orally.  But in

17     working on the written response, I have come to realize that an unfounded

18     allegation cavalierly cast across the courtroom takes considerable time

19     to respond to and is an unwelcome distraction from the important work of

20     a trial.

21             Some of the objections raised yesterday included gratuitous

22     insults or accusations directed at me.  I have reminded myself of what is

23     contained in the Code of Professional Conduct for Counsel appearing

24     before the International Tribunal, and I draw the attention of the

25     Chamber to Article 27.

Page 3939

 1             Paragraph 27(A) states:  "Counsel shall demonstrate respect,

 2     integrity and courtesy for officials and staff members of the Tribunal

 3     and for all persons who facilitate and participate in the proceedings."

 4             27(C) states:  "Counsel shall recognize the representatives of

 5     the parties as professional colleagues and shall act fairly, honestly,

 6     and courteously towards them."

 7             The unfounded attacks against my personal integrity last week,

 8     last week's correspondence from Mr. Alarid which characterized filings by

 9     the Prosecution with what seems to be an scatological reference as well

10     as other intemperate language, and yesterday's inclusions of insults is a

11     violation of the code of professional conduct, is unfair to me and

12     members of my team, and I submit undermines the public perception of the

13     dignity of these proceedings.

14             I'm therefore requesting the Chamber to consider the following

15     suggestions.  First, each of you on this Bench, as individuals, is an

16     experienced jurist.  I believe when raising objections, a simple

17     statement by any of the attorneys of the legal basis for the objection

18     should be sufficient for you to recognize the issue to be decided.  A

19     simple statement such as relevance or leading question or lack of

20     foundation, I would think, in most cases, be sufficient to inform the

21     Chamber of the pertinent issue.

22             I believe it should then be left to the Chamber to decide whether

23     it wishes to hear additional information or argument on the matter.  I

24     believe this practice would go a long way to minimise statements that are

25     unnecessary to the issue at hand and undermine the conduct of the trial.

Page 3940

 1             The second suggestion I ask the Chamber to consider over the

 2     recess is the following.  The Chamber when called upon to make a decision

 3     must make it in an informed manner.  It is entitled to rely on

 4     representations made by counsel appearing before it as officers of the

 5     court, trusting that those counsels will have checked their information

 6     and make whatever assertions they make in good faith.

 7             Yesterday, Mr. Ivetic made a statement that I had taken a

 8     particular position with respect to the Duga article's reliability.

 9     While I did not recall taking such a position, I was unable to

10     immediately recall details of the prior discussions of the article.  I

11     asked a member of my staff to check the record yesterday evening, and she

12     informed me yesterday evening that Mr. Ivetic has incorrectly

13     characterized the prior discussions about the Duga article.  I will not

14     take any time with it here this morning, as I think the issue will arise

15     again later in the trial.

16             I do ask the Chamber to consider requiring the following, that

17     advocates who are going to refer and characterize earlier discussions,

18     particularly when such characterizations are going to be of a pejorative

19     nature, that such only be done after checking the record and that a cite

20     to the transcript be provided where possible so that attorneys and the

21     Chamber can have the opportunity to review the transcript.

22             I appreciate that objections must be raised quickly, but LiveNote

23     has the capacity to navigate the trial record quickly.  A simple search

24     of the word "Duga" would have identified all discussions related to that

25     evidence in a few seconds.

Page 3941

 1             I would greatly appreciate the Chamber giving due consideration

 2     to these requests over the holiday recess.

 3             Your Honours, the final point I wish to raise with you is my

 4     concern going into the holiday recess with no definitive witness list

 5     from the Milan Lukic Defence.  I note that you yourself raised the issue

 6     yesterday, and I'm able to discuss it at any time you choose.  I would

 7     simply ask that we do discuss it before concluding proceedings today.

 8     Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Chamber has the submissions, the motion,

10     filed by the Defence and ...

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I believe we are still awaiting response from

13     the Prosecution, and we'll give a decision and take into consideration

14     all relevant factors, including those that you have raised.  Please call

15     the next witness.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, our next witness will be MLD10,

17     testifying subject to protective measures of pseudonym, voice distortion,

18     and face distortion, and she will be presented viva voce, and I hope to

19     cut her down to two hours.  And perhaps I can inquire if Mr. Groome has

20     confirmed that the translation offered yesterday for the exhibit was

21     indeed with insertations from the Prosecution and when the proper

22     translation will be available.

23             MR. GROOME:  I haven't checked it yet, Your Honour.  I'll ask

24     Ms. Mazzocco here to see if she can get some additional information about

25     the translation.

Page 3942

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit, and begin, Mr. Ivetic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And if I could have the

 7     assistance of the usher, I have a pseudonym sheet.

 8                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD10

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

11        Q.   Madam, as you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the attorneys for

12     Milan Lukic, and for purposes of the record I'm going to have to address

13     you today as MLD10, and in a moment you will be shown a pseudonym sheet.

14     And now, madam, I'd ask you to take a look and review the sheet, and if

15     you could confirm for us that the information as to yourself contained

16     therein is correct.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If you could please, then, also tell me if the -- if -- pardon

19     me.  If you have to refer to any of the other individuals listed on

20     there - I believe there's one other individual listed on there - I would

21     ask you to please use the pseudonym that is listed therein, if that's

22     okay with you, and then I would ask you to sign this sheet or initial it.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honours, I'd ask for this document to be

24     introduced under seal as the next available 1D exhibit number.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 3943

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 93 under seal, Your Honours.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Madam, if you could tell me as we begin, what is your ethnicity

 4     or your religious national identity or affinity.

 5        A.   By ethnicity, I'm Bosnian, Bosniak, and by religious affiliation,

 6     I'm Muslim.

 7        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  I'm just waiting for the translation and the

 8     transcript to catch up with us.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we can go briefly into private

10     session, I'd like to address some matters that would perhaps identify the

11     witness if handled in open court.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3944











11  Pages 3944-3949 redacted. Private session.















Page 3950

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Witness, we are now again in open session, so now from this point

22     forward everything that we talk about will be transmitted publicly, so I

23     again urge you to be careful not to reveal your identity and to use the

24     information on the pseudonym sheet that has been left in front of you.

25             With respect to the time period of the Bosnian civil war, did you

Page 3951

 1     have occasion to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina during that time period?

 2        A.   You mean during the war?  I did not go to Bosnia.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, given all the matters that we've discussed in

 4     closed session, would you consider yourself a person that knew

 5     Milan Lukic very well?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   In all the time that you've known Milan Lukic, has he ever had

 8     blond hair or blue eyes?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   How would you describe how Milan Lukic acted toward persons of

11     different ethnic groups, that is to say, ethnic and religious groups

12     different from his own?

13        A.   Well, I would say that Milan Lukic is very thoughtful and kind

14     towards all people regardless of nationality, and he was on good terms

15     with everyone in the broader region of Visegrad.  I never heard about any

16     excesses or any quarrels that he might have had with anyone.  There was

17     never any problem between him and our family, either.

18        Q.   If I can ask you, did you ever witness him to make any insults

19     against persons that were of the Muslim religion or national identity?

20        A.   No.  I've never witnessed or heard about any such thing, and I

21     maintain with full responsibility that he did not distinguish between

22     people in terms of nationality or ethnicity.

23        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  And again, I'm waiting just for the English

24     translation and the transcript to catch up with us.  If you could briefly

25     give us your personal appraisal of the type of person Milan Lukic was

Page 3952

 1     based upon your -- based upon knowing him in your life.  How is it that

 2     you would describe him?

 3        A.   Milan Lukic was extremely handsome, a quiet, nice person, always

 4     forthcoming, helpful whenever he could be, an extremely humane and

 5     gracious person.  Noble, even, I would say, a very positive character, I

 6     would say.

 7        Q.   And MLD10, I would like to now draw your attention to the time

 8     period when the war broke out in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you recall when

 9     it was that the war broke out in your homeland of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   The war in my home country, Bosnia-Herzegovina, broke out in

11     1992, as far as I know.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And now you've already told us that you were not

13     present in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the duration of the war.  Did you

14     have family members who were caught up in the war and had to endure the

15     war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16        A.   Only one of my brothers was not there.  The rest of the family

17     was.

18        Q.   And were any members of your family engaged as members of any of

19     the armed forces participating in the war, and if so, which?

20        A.   Yes.  The four of them were in the armed forces.  One of them got

21     killed.

22        Q.   And which army did they belong to?

23        A.   In the federal army, the Muslim army, in fact.

24        Q.   And ma'am, without revealing the exact location, when the war

25     first broke out, where were your father and your siblings?  What

Page 3953

 1     municipality?

 2        A.   In the municipality of Visegrad.

 3        Q.   Did there come a time when you lost contact with your father and

 4     your siblings or said contact was interrupted?

 5        A.   I severed contacts with them from the time when the war broke out

 6     or, rather, all contacts were cut.

 7        Q.   Do you recall a time period in 1992 when you sought out the

 8     assistance of Milan Lukic to ascertain the fate of your family members

 9     that were in Visegrad and to try and assist them?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Could you tell us some of the details about when it was precisely

12     that you sought out Mr. Milan Lukic's assistance.

13        A.   Well, I called his sister in Belgrade.  I wanted to talk to her.

14     That was on the 8th, in the afternoon.  I talked to her, and she told me

15     that Milan was in Belgrade and that he wasn't there at the time, and I

16     asked her to let him know that I wanted to meet him if possible because I

17     wanted him to let me know what was happening with my family.  And I told

18     her that he should call me if possible, and she said that he would, and

19     he indeed called me.  That was on the 8th between 8 and 9 p.m.  That was

20     right after the evening news.

21             So we talked.  He asked me if I was married, how I lived.  He

22     inquired about my health, and I asked him if we could perhaps meet, and

23     he said that we could and that the best thing to do would be to meet in

24     Novi Pazar.  I asked him why, whether any other place was an option, and

25     he said that he had some things to do, that he was taking some Muslims

Page 3954

 1     from Visegrad to Novi Pazar, to get them away from the war zone.

 2             So we set up a meet in Novi Pazar, and I asked him if he could

 3     call me on the 10th to confirm the meeting in Novi Pazar, and then around

 4     1.00 p.m. he called me, and we confirmed this meeting in Novi Pazar.

 5        Q.   If we can just back up a little bit.  You indicated twice in your

 6     answer that events occurred on the 8th.  Could you please clarify for us

 7     what month is in reference.

 8        A.   On the 8th of June, 1992.

 9        Q.   And in your answer, you also mentioned the 10th for the meeting

10     in Novi Pazar.  Could you clarify for us and confirm for us the month and

11     the year of that.

12        A.   That was on the 10th of June, 1992.

13        Q.   And again, being careful not to reveal any identities of

14     yourself, can you tell us how you obtained the telephone number for

15     Milan's sister in Belgrade?

16        A.   Well, I had it written down somewhere, but I couldn't find the

17     number, and then I called a neighbor of mine from Visegrad.  She lived in

18     Uzice, and she gave me her number.

19        Q.   And with respect to the meeting in Novi Pazar, could you explain

20     for us exactly what did you agree with Milan Lukic for the 10th of June,

21     1992?

22        A.   On the 10th of June, 1992, Milan and I arranged that he should

23     try to find my family, to see whether they were okay, whether they needed

24     anything, where they were, and I sent some stuff with him.  I think it

25     was a pack of cigarettes and maybe a kilo of coffee and

Page 3955

 1     100 Deutschemarks.  I gave it to him so that he could give it to them.

 2        Q.   And we've been talking about these two dates, the 8th and the

 3     10th of June, 1992.  How is it that those particular dates stand out in

 4     your mind?

 5        A.   Well, it stuck in my mind because my husband had come back from

 6     Germany some seven days before that.  It's my birthday on the

 7     13th of June, and we always have a celebration as much as we could.  My

 8     husband came -- well, it's a well known date throughout the world.  It's

 9     the Feast of St. Anthony of Padua, and that's my birthday, and he used to

10     joke and call me Antonia for that reason.

11        Q.   And if I can ask you, did Milan Lukic at that time tell you why

12     he had been in Belgrade?

13        A.   He told me that his mother was supposed to undergo some check-ups

14     or some examinations on the 7th, and that's why he came to Belgrade.  She

15     had to do some ultrasound check-ups.  That's why he had come to Belgrade

16     with her.

17        Q.   And if we can help out with -- for those who are not familiar

18     with the geography of the region, where is Novi Pazar located in relation

19     to, let's say, Belgrade and Montenegro?

20        A.   Well, it's about halfway between Belgrade and Montenegro, the

21     place where I had set off from.  It's close to the border of Montenegro.

22        Q.   And was there a specific location or landmark in Novi Pazar that

23     was the site of the meeting?

24        A.   We arranged that we would meet next to the fortress, because that

25     was the easiest thing to do, because you could ask anyone anywhere where

Page 3956

 1     the fortress was, and that's how we met.

 2        Q.   And you indicated that was so it'd be easier for you to meet.

 3     Could you tell us how it was that you traveled there.  By what means did

 4     you travel there, and with whom?

 5        A.   I traveled there in our car with my husband.  We had a Mercedes.

 6     It was a diesel engine, 2.5 litre.  The model was 190.

 7        Q.   Can you detail for us the route that you took to travel from your

 8     place of residence and the fortress -- or Novi Pazar, I should say.

 9        A.   Well, it was Bar, Podgorica; Podgorica, Ivangrad; and then from

10     Ivangrad, Rozaje, Novi Pazar.

11        Q.   And do you recall the approximate time that you spent traveling

12     to Novi Pazar from your home and/or the time -- the approximate time that

13     you arrived at the fortress that was to be the meeting point for your

14     encounter with Mr. Milan Lukic?

15        A.   I think it took us about four hours.  We took breaks en route.

16     We were not in a hurry.  We had enough time to get there on time.

17        Q.   And do you recall the approximate time when you arrived at the

18     fortress?

19        A.   Well, we arrived there about one -- half an hour earlier.  We

20     didn't want to get there too early.  That's why we stopped on our route

21     there, to avoid that.

22        Q.   In terms of the time of day, what time of day was it in reference

23     to either the morning, afternoon, evening?

24        A.   It was in the evening, between 5 -- or, rather, I'm sorry,

25     between 7 and 8 p.m.  That's when we arranged to meet.

Page 3957

 1        Q.   And did you have any difficulty find the fortress?  How did you

 2     find the fortress for the meeting?

 3        A.   Well, I asked the police in town where the fortress was.

 4        Q.   And did in fact Milan Lukic arrive for the encounter or meeting?

 5        A.   Yes, he did.

 6        Q.   And could you tell us, do you have an estimation as to the

 7     duration of that meeting with Milan Lukic at the Novi Pazar fortress?

 8        A.   Well, 15 minutes to half an hour, not more than that, 15 minutes

 9     to half an hour.

10        Q.   And could you tell us -- could you tell us what transpired during

11     that meeting?  What happened?

12        A.   Well, we said hello.  I asked him whether he saw my family,

13     whether he had heard from anyone where they were, and he explained to me

14     that he would do his best to locate them and that he had some knowledge

15     as to the fact that my father had to report to the police station in

16     Visegrad and that he would do his best to find them as soon as he got

17     back from Novi Pazar.

18        Q.   And you mentioned earlier a package or gift package that you'd

19     prepared for your relatives.  Did you have occasion to give that to

20     Milan Lukic, and what was his response to your request?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, I handed it over to Milan, and he promised that

22     he would in turn hand it over to them and that he would make a

23     100-per cent effort to find them, that he would do all he could do to

24     help them, morally and financially and in any other way.  And that

25     allayed my fears because I didn't know my mother at all, so my father was

Page 3958

 1     everything to me.

 2        Q.   And you indicated you traveled there with your husband.  Did your

 3     husband participate in that meeting?

 4        A.   Yes.  My husband just said hello and he stood there.  He didn't

 5     make any comments.

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Lukic arrive alone, or were there other people in the

 7     vehicle with him?

 8        A.   Lukic told me that his mother was with him, and then I asked to

 9     see her if possible because I wanted to say hello to her.  He told me

10     that I could but that he was in a hurry, that I could just say hello to

11     her briefly.  So we went to the car that Milan had driven there.  It was

12     a blue car.  His mother was inside, and he opened the passenger-side

13     door.  His mother got out.  We said hello.  We talked for five minutes,

14     and I told her I wished her a safe trip, and then they went off.

15        Q.   You indicated that Milan had promised to do everything in his

16     power to find your relatives and to pass along the gift packet that you

17     had prepared for them.  Did you ever have an opportunity to confirm with

18     your family members whether Milan gave this gift packet to them as you

19     had requested?

20        A.   I did not have an opportunity during the war to talk to anyone.

21     After the war, I managed to find my people in Zenica.  They had moved to

22     Zenica, and they told me everything.  My father was still alive at the

23     time, and he told me how Milan was helping them, how he invited them over

24     to their place, how he hid them, how they slept in their place, how he

25     gave them food, how he managed to make it possible for them to move to a

Page 3959

 1     safe place.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I object.  I believe we're going into

 4     an area that's outside the Rule 67 alibi notice and beginning to speak

 5     about events on the 26th and 27th of June, which was not -- we were not

 6     given notice that this witness would be testifying as to these matters.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I direct Mr. Groome to Rule 65 ter, which is the

 8     instructive rule as to testimony of witnesses.  This witness was properly

 9     disclosed under Rule 65 ter within the time periods that the Court set

10     for 65 ter notification by the Defence.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  His point, Mr. Ivetic, as I understand it, is

13     that the area that is now being discussed doesn't relate to the alibi.

14     I'm not sure that I agree with Mr. Groome, but it's ...

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, perhaps I'm wrong, but maybe Mr. Ivetic

16     would be able to clarify for the Chamber.  The event that she's now

17     referring to, what is the date of that event.  If we could have

18     clarification, then perhaps I'll withdraw my objection if it's a

19     different day.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Well, she's talking about multiple events.  I mean,

21     if you want to go through the whole litany, I don't know.  But we're not

22     presenting her as an alibi that she was with Milan Lukic on any other

23     date apart from the date that we have disclosed her as for and that she

24     has just completed testifying about, and I leave it to Your Honours'

25     instruction.

Page 3960

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The way that I see it, Mr. Groome, she testified

 2     that she gave Milan Lukic a package for her family, and I think it is

 3     entirely reasonable to inquire whether that package had been delivered.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could just be heard briefly on

 5     this.  There's another witness on the Defence witness list --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Should we be speaking in front of the witness with

 7     this?  I don't know what Mr. Groome is bringing up now, but it sounds

 8     like he's bringing up discussions, so I don't know if the witness ought

 9     be excused or --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  No, no, we -- go along.

11             MR. GROOME:  The relative of this witness is also scheduled to

12     testify who testifies that -- what I believe she's about to testify to,

13     that this event of saving her father and brother occurred on the 26th to

14     the 27th of June.  The alibi notice for this witness says nothing about

15     that, and although there is a reference in the 65 ter about a good

16     conduct of Milan Lukic with respect to treatment of her family, the 65

17     ter doesn't even say that date.  So if this woman is now going to testify

18     that on the 26th and 27th of June that Milan Lukic was present at the

19     family home and did something with respect to her family, that clearly is

20     something that we have not been given notice about with respect to

21     Rule 67.  I have no objection to her testimony about the 10th of June.

22     That was properly noticed, and I'm not objecting to that.  It's simply I

23     believe we're going into an area now that we're talking about the

24     26th and 27th of June.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3961

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Do you understand the objection now, Mr. Ivetic,

 2     that you have brought her to testify about the 10th, to provide an alibi

 3     for the 10th, but what --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that -- that -- I apologize.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But you appear to be now going beyond that to

 6     the 26th and 27th, different -- are you going in that direction?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I can read for the record what the

 8     65 ter description for this witness was.  It says:  "This witness is a

 9     character and alibi witness.  MLD10 will testify as to the good acts and

10     deeds of Milan Lukic, including how he saved members of her own family

11     and brought Bosnian Muslims to Novi Pazar to escape the war zone.  MLD10

12     will testify that Milan Lukic was in Serbia on 10 June, 1992, what he met

13     with this witness.  MLD10 will further address, rebut the testimony of

14     VG-138."

15             This is not merely an alibi witness, Your Honour.  She is a mixed

16     witness of alibi, fact, and character.  She is properly disclosed for

17     multiple areas.  The only alibi that we are presenting her for is

18     10 June 1992.  That is the only alibi testimony that she was disclosed

19     for.  We are seeking to and have disclosed her as a witness to testify as

20     to her knowledge of the good deeds and acts of Milan Lukic towards her

21     family and towards others.

22             We do not -- she obviously cannot be an alibi witness for any of

23     those as to specific dates because she was not present with him when he

24     was saving or helping members of her family.  So to the extent that she

25     can recall the time periods when this was involved, she -- we're calling

Page 3962

 1     her to address her knowledge from her family of the good deeds and acts

 2     of Milan Lukic that I think go towards establishing the type of person he

 3     was, go toward mitigation and other factors that are relevant to these

 4     proceedings.  So I would defer to Your Honours' instructions.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So if I understand you, you're saying that in

 6     respect of the 26 and 27th, she will not be giving alibi evidence?  She

 7     will be testifying to the good deeds, the character of the accused?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  We can ask her if she can pin it down to a time

 9     period, but, I mean, she's not an -- an alibi is someone who's with them

10     or saw them.  Obviously, she was nowhere -- she testified that she saw

11     him on the 10th of June.  She's not going to testify that she saw him on

12     the 27th or the 26th of June or any other date unless -- unless we -- any

13     other date related to the indictment.  That's the crux of our submission.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I mean, clearly if she says that, My

16     father told me that he was with Milan Lukic on the 26th or 27th, the fact

17     that she wasn't physically present with him doesn't mean that that

18     evidence isn't relevant to alibi, and I think it's important to point out

19     that I bear the burden on alibi.  They just have to raise the reasonable

20     possibility that Milan Lukic was not in Visegrad, but I must prove beyond

21     reasonable doubt, and that's why Rule 67 gives me certain procedural

22     rights and certain notice.  I think the key documents to look at are the

23     alibi notice that was served with respect to this witness.  I read from

24     it, and this is the notice of the 18th of July:

25   (redacted)

Page 3963

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, can we have a redaction of her

 9     relative's place of birth since this is a protected witness.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  That will be redacted.

11             MR. GROOME:  "... was burned down because they were Muslims, the

12     Lukic family invited them to sleep at their place for the next few days.

13     MLD2 will state in his testimony that between the period of 26 June 1992

14     until 29th June 1992, that he was at the house of Mile and Milan Lukic,

15     and Milan -- that Milan Lukic did not leave the property at all during

16     that time period."

17             That's the notice that we've been given with respect to MLD 2.  I

18     believe what's appropriate here is we've not been given any notice that

19     this witness is going to talk about that event, that this witness be not

20     permitted -- if MLD 2 is going to come here and testify to that event,

21     that has been properly noticed and he can properly testify about it.

22     Otherwise, what's happened here, Your Honour, is that a new alibi witness

23     has been raised for the first time in the middle of the testimony of the

24     witness, and we've been given no notice.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I must correct a misstatement on the

Page 3964

 1     record.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  I'm going to consult.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, if indeed you were not notified of

 5     this matter, so that are you not in a position to rebut it, what would be

 6     the prejudice if we were to give you permission to rebut it at a later

 7     stage?

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I may interject, Mr. Groome is

 9     incorrect that he was not put on notice.  The statement of this witness

10     that was disclosed in the alibi filings, and we could pull it up on the

11     screen if need be.  The last paragraph of that statement states:

12             "Later, after the war, my father told me that Milan Lukic saved

13     the family, and that my father and my brother slept and ate in Milan

14     Lukic's house and that it was thanks to this that they survived."

15             So this area that I'm going into has been disclosed as of

16     July 8th of this year --

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Now does it relate --

18             MR. IVETIC:  -- to Mr. Groome.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- does it relate to the 26th and 27th, which is

20     his point?

21             MR. IVETIC:  I haven't asked her about the 26th or the 27th.

22     I've asked her about whether she heard from her family that Milan Lukic

23     helped them and assisted them, and that's exactly what's been disclosed.

24     And therefore, I take great issue with Mr. Groome for how he claims that

25     everyone else is misrepresenting things here, but time and time again,

Page 3965

 1     the documentation --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Counsel is kindly asked to slow down for

 3     interpretation.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... -- I really

 5     don't know what to do about this, and I apologize for [Microphone not

 6     activated]

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, he's saying that you're premature.

 8     We don't know yet whether he's going to lead evidence about the 26th and

 9     27th, so let us see how it develops and maybe you can take your point

10     then if it is necessary.

11             Yes, proceed.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I will have to try and go

13     back to repeat the question.

14        Q.   Now, madam -- madam, you had started testifying about when you

15     had moved to Zenica and had met up with your family, that is to say your

16     brother -- pardon me, your father, and they told you everything -- could

17     you please try to complete your answer to my question, which originally

18     was that:  Did you ever have an opportunity to confirm with your family

19     members whether Milan gave this gift packet to them as you had requested

20     him to do?

21        A.   Yes.  My father confirmed that, and so did my brother.  They said

22     that they had received the package, and they spent a couple of days in

23     his house, that he helped them as much as he could, and that he even

24     roasted some lamb for them.  It was St. Vitus Day, and he said, Well,

25     we'll roast a lamb to celebrate, and they spent some three or four days

Page 3966

 1     at his place.

 2        Q.   And --

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Now I don't think the point is premature,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  It was St. Vitus Day.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, that's the relevant day in the

 9     indictment.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, as I was saying earlier, my interest

12     really is getting in all the evidence.  The rules do require that you be

13     notified, and you have not been notified in relation to this particular

14     aspect of this witness's evidence.  Fairness, therefore, requires that

15     you be given an opportunity to rebut it, and the Chamber will provide you

16     with that opportunity at a later stage in the proceedings.

17             MR. GROOME:  I guess, Your Honours, it's part of a greater

18     concern that I have that hopefully we'll discuss later on, but there's

19     another witness, MLD13, who has been noticed to us -- originally was an

20     alibi for Pionirska but now is Bikavac.  It's very hard to conduct a

21     trial from a Prosecution point of view, particularly in an alibi case

22     where the alibi is evolving or is changing.  Clearly this witness, we

23     were never given notice she was going to provide an alibi for Bikavac in

24     the alibi notice that was filed, and I must note, late, but it was only

25     under the order of the Court that it was eventually filed after the

Page 3967

 1     commencement of trial on the 18th of July.  I take the Chamber at its

 2     word that will give me a fair opportunity to rebut this, but aside from

 3     that, Your Honour, just in terms of procedural fairness, again, it is me

 4     that has a very heavy burden to disprove this alibi.  It is really very

 5     difficult for me to do it if the Defence is going to be permitted to

 6     change the alibi as we move through the trial.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, the alibi is not changing.  The alibis

 8     that were presented, we're not adding any new people that were present

 9     with Milan Lukic.  We're not adding any new dates or instances.  The

10     alibi, the factual basis for the alibis, which is what we were required

11     to disclose, we disclosed.  It hasn't changed, unlike what Mr. Groome has

12     said.  The alibis are what they are.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, the way that I have practiced law

14     all my life is that I am more concerned with substance --

15             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- and with form and with procedure.  So when

17     you look at the rule on alibi, the purpose of that Rule which requires

18     notice is to enable the Prosecution to have time to rebut it, and I have

19     said I'm going to give Mr. Groome that time so that he can rebut it if he

20     can.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And I have no problem with that.  They have an

22     absolute right to rebut any evidence I bring.  The point is, I take

23     umbrage with the statement that the alibi is changing when it's the same

24     factual circumstance.  If they rebutted as to the alibi witness, they can

25     rebut any --

Page 3968

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That is a matter for the Chamber to determine.

 2     We'll look at all the evidence and make up our mind about that.  So

 3     proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Madam Witness, if we could return back in time to the conclusion

 6     of your meeting on the 10th of June, 1992, at Novi Pazar with

 7     Milan Lukic.  You'd indicated earlier, I believe, that Milan Lukic had

 8     left after some time.  Following your meeting with Milan Lukic, did you

 9     and your husband have occasion to go straight home, or did you go

10     elsewhere, but for purposes of your safety, don't say in open court

11     the -- don't say in open court either location.

12        A.   My husband and I went to see a friend in Novi Pazar.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honours, if we could briefly go into

14     private session, I can deal with the identity of this friend and several

15     other matters into the next area of my question that also ought to be in

16     private session, so that we can effectively use the court time.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

18             MR. IVETIC:  We still have time, don't we?

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3969

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We'll take the break now.

Page 3970

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.  Let's leave it at yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Just continuing my --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, yes.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  -- my examination.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Now we're in open session, ma'am, so again, I caution you as to

10     providing any details that might identify yourself.

11             With respect to OTP witness Hamdija Vilic, in a statement to the

12     Office of the Prosecutor, specifically I believe it's paragraph 5 of the

13     same, he says that during the war he lived in Zlijeb, Visegrad, together

14     with his family.  Can you, based upon your knowledge, tell us what you

15     can about this?

16        A.   Yes, I can.  Hamdija Vilic did not live in Zlijeb.  He had a

17     house in Prelovo.  That's where he lived with his family.  His house was

18     allegedly burned down, and in fact it was burned down, but what I know is

19     that his family was burnt in that house in Prelovo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And again, I'm waiting for the transcript and

21     translations to catch up with you.  What about -- again, without giving

22     more than the -- more than what is at minimum necessary, what about

23     Mr. Vilic's claim that you yourself are from Zavidovici?

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3971

 1   (redacted)

 2             MR. IVETIC:  We may need a redaction.  I don't know how large the

 3     municipality she mentioned at line 20 is, but we may need to have that --

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  -- redacted.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- we can have that redacted.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now, madam, with respect to Mr. Hamdija Vilic, in the time that

 9     you've known him, has he gone by any nicknames, and if so what nicknames

10     has he gone by?

11        A.   His nickname is Zuti, meaning yellow.

12        Q.   And just so we can be sure that we're talking about the same

13     person, Mr. Hamdija Vilic, how would you describe him?  Is there any

14     physical attribute that can differentiate him from any of his other

15     brothers or anyone else?

16        A.   Well, he's different because he has yellow hair, sun spots on his

17     face.  He does not have the lower arm.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure that the witness

19     said this, but apparently she did.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Did you say he does not have the lower arm?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He does not have one part of his

22     arm.  The lower arm is missing on one side.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Do you have knowledge of whether Mr. Hamdija Vilic, nicknamed

25     Zuti, was in fact a combatant of the Bosnian Muslim army and/or a

Page 3972

 1     commander of any unit in 1992?

 2        A.   Yes, he was, from what I know.

 3        Q.   Now, I'd like to also ask you a bit more about him.  Do you have

 4     knowledge or information about the incident that was raised during

 5     Mr. Vilic's testimony, his conviction and his gaol sentence after the

 6     war?

 7        A.   I do know he was convicted after the war for two murders and for

 8     wounding I believe three persons with a hand grenade.

 9        Q.   And these persons that were either murdered or wounded, what

10     ethnic or national identity were the victims of Hamdija Vilic?

11        A.   Muslims.

12        Q.   And with respect to Mr. Hamdija Vilic, did you at any time tell

13     Mr. Vilic that you were to be a witness for the Defence of

14     Mr. Milan Lukic?

15        A.   No, I did not.

16        Q.   Were you afraid of Mr. Vilic, and if so, why?

17        A.   Well, I was afraid and I am still afraid of him because he's the

18     kind of person that he is, if he killed some of his fellow combatants,

19     former fellow combatants, with a hand grenade in a bar and he's never

20     sober.  He's constantly hanging around bars and drinking.  And during the

21     war, his brothers and he were notorious were brawls and excesses.

22        Q.   You mentioned his brothers.  Could you give us a little more

23     detail about your familiarity of his siblings, names and what you know

24     about them.

25        A.   The eldest brother is called Adem.  He lives in Sarajevo.  He,

Page 3973

 1     too, lost a leg in the war.  Another brother, Hasan, lives in Austria.

 2     And there is also Hussein, who allegedly got killed.  And another one

 3     died before the war while serving in the army.  His name was

 4     Ramzija [phoen].

 5        Q.   Did there come a time when Mr. Hamdija Vilic requested to meet at

 6     your home with members of the Defence team of Milan Lukic?

 7        A.   Yes.  He asked to meet with the Defence counsel of Milan Lukic,

 8     and he said in those words, I can't meet with them in Sarajevo because

 9     the balijas - using that term - are following me everywhere in Sarajevo;

10     I would be in danger; I want to be a protected witness; and if I can

11     come, I can only accept to meet them at your place.

12        Q.   Do you recall the time frame or the day or the month when this

13     meeting in question took place?

14        A.   I cannot remember exactly the date.  That was the same date when

15     I gave a statement.  My statement was given on that day.

16        Q.   And was Mr. Hamdija Vilic present in the room when you were

17     meeting with the members of the Defence team and they were taking your

18     statement?

19        A.   No.  Hamdija Vilic was in a different room with my husband, and I

20     was in a different room.  Also, music was playing, and he was not able to

21     hear anything.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Vilic -- Mr. Hamdija Vilic claimed here under oath and

23     under penalty of perjury that there was an American attorney and a

24     Serbian attorney present from the Milan Lukic Defence team that day at

25     your home and that the American spoke Serbian badly.  I ask you, madam,

Page 3974

 1     were there any American attorneys in your house that day?

 2        A.   There were no American lawyers in my home.  Both counsel spoke

 3     Serbian.  I doubt that either of them spoke English at all, and these two

 4     were of Serbian ethnicity.

 5        Q.   And did these members of the Defence team of Milan Lukic

 6     introduce themselves to both yourself and to Mr. Hamdija Vilic?

 7        A.   Yes, they did.

 8        Q.   And how did they introduce themselves to you?

 9        A.   They introduced themselves as a team of investigators and

10     counsel.  One was Vlado or Vladimir or something like that, and the other

11     one was Mihailo.

12        Q.   And did in fact Mr. Hamdija Vilic on that occasion volunteer to

13     be a witness for the defence of Milan Lukic and meet with these members

14     of the Defence team?

15        A.   Yes.  He asked to appear as a witness, but he didn't want to meet

16     with them in Sarajevo but to meet with them at my place, and I accepted,

17     although he was not a very close relative and I didn't really feel like

18     receiving anyone at my house.  I expressed my wish to go to Sarajevo, but

19     when he said he wasn't willing to meet with Sarajevo [as interpreted], I

20     told the lawyers that they should come to my house instead.

21        Q.   Mr. Hamdija Vilic has made an allegation that he was offered

22     100.000 Euros for him to testify.  What can you tell us about this?

23        A.   Nobody offered him a single dinar, let alone 100.000.  But before

24     the lawyers came, he was saying he was willing to come here and give

25     evidence and everything, but he says then, Five heads in my family are

Page 3975

 1     missing, each one of them is worth 20.000, so if they are willing to pay

 2     100.000, then I'll come and testify.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we can perhaps have the tape

 4     checked later.  I believe she said [B/C/S spoken], testify as to the

 5     truth, at the end of that, but that --  I don't want to take up time

 6     doing that now with asking her to repeat it.

 7        Q.   How did the persons present in your house react to

 8     Mr. Hamdija Vilic's demand to be paid 100.000 Euros to come and testify

 9     at the Tribunal?

10        A.   They were flabbergasted.  They said, We have nothing more to talk

11     about with you.  If that's the way it is, there's nothing to talk about.

12     We don't pay witnesses, and we can't give you any money.

13        Q.   Did Mr. Vilic at that -- at some point in time leave your home,

14     and when I say Mr. Vilic, I mean Mr. Hamdija Vilic.  Did he leave your

15     home, and what can you tell us about the taxi ride that he, at least in

16     his statement, talked about, which I guess he's testified that it really

17     was his vehicle and no taxi.

18        A.   Sorry.  Yes, he came in his own car, a ramshackle

19     Volkswagen Golf.  He parked his car there, and when I had to go and have

20     my statement notarized in court, I asked him to wait a little.  I told

21     him, Wait a while while I get some food.  Don't go.  And then my husband

22     later told me that as soon as I had left, he said, I want to leave now,

23     immediately, will you please move your car.  I want to go.

24        Q.   Did you tell Mr. Hamdija Vilic that you were going to have your

25     statement notarized?

Page 3976

 1        A.   No.  I told him I was going to town.  Since they were going back,

 2     I'll use that to get a ride to get some food because all I had was some

 3     frozen meat and I couldn't wait for it to defrost.  I wanted to do some

 4     shopping and get something to eat.

 5        Q.   You said "since they were going back."  Who is the "they" that

 6     you reference?

 7        A.   The lawyers, the Defence counsel.  Since they were going back, I

 8     meant to go to town with them.  I didn't tell him why I was going to

 9     town.  Instead, I told him I was going to buy some food.

10        Q.   And madam, after this incident in your home, did

11     Mr. Hamdija Vilic have occasion to contact you subsequently?

12        A.   He called me only once on the telephone.  I answered, and he

13     asked me, Are the lawyers calling you?  I said, No, why would they?  And

14     I said nothing more.  I just hung up.

15        Q.   How did you interpret and regard this telephone call from

16     Mr. Hamdija Vilic?

17        A.   Well, my thinking was, as soon as he called me, that he had been

18     to the Office of the Prosecutor or perhaps some other organizations down

19     there to make that telephone call, that he was not calling from home,

20     because otherwise he never called me.

21        Q.   Was that before or after he testified here at the Tribunal, if

22     you know?

23        A.   Before.

24        Q.   Did Mr. Hamdija Vilic ever tell you anything that would lead you

25     to believe that he was involved with either the Bosnian or the

Page 3977

 1     Tribunal Prosecutor's Office?

 2        A.   Yes.  Precisely when I talked to him before he came to my house,

 3     he told me that Bakira and I don't know who else were taking him to

 4     Visegrad every day practically for tours and I don't know what, and he

 5     said, They are harassing me, I have to go there every day.

 6        Q.   Could you please enlighten --

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  We're going into an entire area here that I -- this

10     is -- I mean, I'm aghast.  I just have absolutely no notice of it.  The

11     only reference that we have in the 65 ter summary is MLD10 will further

12     address the testimony of VG-138.  That's hardly a summary of -- or an

13     adequate summary of what we're hearing now.  I mean, we should certainly

14     have been given notice that she's -- about the kind of evidence that

15     she's giving here now.  I mean, how am to be I able to prepare for this?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, for the record, Hamdija Vilic was

17     previously identified to us as VG-138.  However, no protective measures

18     were sought for him, and he testified under his formal name here in

19     court.  The 65 ter notice that we provided for this witness, that we had

20     indicated would be a live witness, was that she would address and rebut

21     the testimony of Hamdija Vilic.  They have opened the door by bringing in

22     Mr. Vilic to make -- for that wide series of very serious allegations

23     against the members of the team, the members -- witnesses, and they full

24     well knew considering Mr. Vilic in his testimony mentioned this witness

25     multiple times, in his statement mentioned this witness multiple times.

Page 3978

 1     To say that they were not put on notice, that this witness when she was

 2     brought here to testify would testify as to Mr. Vilic, attack those

 3     spurilous allegations of Mr. Vilic, address the character of Mr. Vilic,

 4     and address reasons why he might be lying or testifying untruthfully when

 5     he was here is simply baffling.  He knew full well that we were attacking

 6     Mr. Vilic's representations and his testimony, and they knew that this

 7     witness was --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Mr. Groome, in our view, you have

 9     had enough notice.

10             MR. IVETIC:

11        Q.   Now, madam, I'd like to back up, and I have to -- I apologize, I

12     have to scroll up to see where we left off before the objection.  Let me

13     see if you had finished.  Yes.

14             You mentioned in your response at page 39, lines 19 through 22,

15     that Bakira and others were taking him to Visegrad every day.  Do you

16     have knowledge of this individual that he identified as Bakira?  Can you

17     give us any further information as to the identity of this Bakira?

18        A.   Bakira is a woman from Visegrad who is involved with Muslims, the

19     victims.  That's what I know, that she's discharging those duties.  I

20     don't know any details about her.  I know that she's doing that because

21     when my brother's funeral was, she attended it.

22        Q.   To your knowledge, is she part of any group or organization?

23        A.   Yes.  She is in this group for the exhumation of the dead,

24     dealing with those issues in general, for the Muslims, the missing

25     Muslims, something like that.  I don't know what it's called, but I know

Page 3979

 1     that that's what she does because she was in this organization when my

 2     brother was buried in Sarajevo, when we moved him from the Zepa area.

 3        Q.   And ma'am, now, what about the allegations and testimony of

 4     Mr. Vilic.  I believe in open court but also in his statement,

 5     specifically, paragraph 18 of his statement, where he claimed that in

 6     your house the members of the Milan Lukic Defence team had a bag of money

 7     the size of a laptop computer.  Did you see anything of that sort in your

 8     house the day when Hamdija Vilic met with members of the Defence team of

 9     Milan Lukic?

10        A.   They didn't have anything else in their trunk.  Vladimir had a

11     backpack with a laptop and nothing else.  Mihailo didn't have anything.

12     He didn't carry anything.  Vlado was in a pair of shorts.  Vlado [as

13     interpreted] was wearing jeans, so I didn't see them bring in anything

14     else.

15        Q.   And did they in fact use the laptop computer?

16        A.   Yes.  They used it to take my statement.

17        Q.   Now, Witness MLD10, have you ever been offered money by any

18     member of the Defence team of Milan Lukic to testify?

19        A.   No, never.  No one.  And no one ever does that, and there

20     wouldn't have been any need because I wouldn't have come here had anyone

21     offered me any money.  Even if I had more money, I would have offered

22     some for Milan Lukic's Defence, to assist with his defence.  I would go

23     that far.  I would never, ever accept any money.  I don't need any money.

24     I have a regular income.  I have enough money.

25        Q.   Now I'd like to move to a different area.  Apart from the fears

Page 3980

 1     that you have expressed as to Hamdija Vilic, have you had occasion to

 2     experience any threat, intimidation, or pressure from third or unknown

 3     persons; and if so, what form did that activity take?

 4        A.   Yes.  At one point in time, my home phone kept ringing all the

 5     time, and then I would hear this sound in the phone, and then they would

 6     say, You will see where you will go back to.  I didn't know at that

 7     time -- well, I didn't know who that was because they didn't say their

 8     name.  It lasted for about 15 days.  I had to go and get the cordless

 9     phone to be able to get caller ID.  But ever since I have been using the

10     cordless phone, I have not received any calls of that nature.

11        Q.   And have you had anything else of this nature occur apart from

12     the telephone -- the unknown telephone calls?

13        A.   Well, I was in a situation to notice unknown vehicles pass by my

14     house because I knew all the people from the neighbourhood passing by.  I

15     know their vehicles, and I know those persons.  But recently, I have been

16     seeing cars that I have not seen before, cars that pass by.

17        Q.   Now, madam, without mentioning that person's name in open

18     session, could you tell us, what happened with the support person that

19     was supposed to travel and accompany you -- travel with and accompany you

20     here to The Hague?  Did she in fact make the trip?

21        A.   She was supposed to travel with me and be my escort, but when I

22     was supposed to get a copy of her passport to send it in for a visa

23     application, she simply gave up, and she said, Well, I don't want to, I

24     don't dare, I can't.  She didn't want to give me the reason why, and

25     throughout the time she -- previous time, she kept saying that she would

Page 3981

 1     accompany me.

 2        Q.   Your Honours, I would like to go into private session to go into

 3     more details as to this with respect -- with the aim of protecting the

 4     identity of this witness and also the third party.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3982











11  Pages 3982-3988 redacted. Private session.















Page 3989

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:

 7        Q.   Madam, my name is Dermot Groome, and I'll be asking you some

 8     questions, and I, too, will refer to you as MLD10 to protect your

 9     identity.  The first question I'd like to ask you is:  How old were you

10     when you left Rujiste?

11        A.   Well, I was probably 34, something like that.

12        Q.   The area that you've described as the area that you came from,

13     are you also familiar with the area that's referred to as Zupa?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that witness -- that Defence Exhibit

16     1D 94 be placed on the ELMO beside the witness, and I ask that she be

17     given a blue pen.  I see that you've used a red pen for the markings.

18        Q.   Ma'am, I'm going to ask that you be shown one of the maps that

19     you made markings on earlier.

20             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour --

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             MR. GROOME:  Madam, I'm advised it would be difficult to do that

23     now, so I'm going to go to another area of inquiry, and they're going to

24     try to --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

Page 3990

 1             MR. ALARID:  To assist the Prosecutor, the two maps were finally

 2     up loaded into e-court and we could probably give them the numbers and

 3     work with the digital copies.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, please do that.

 5             MR. ALARID:  1D 22-5303 and 1D 22-5304.

 6             MR. GROOME:  If I might just inquire, I only want to work with

 7     the one that has the broader area.  Which one is that?

 8             MR. ALARID:  The first one.

 9             MR. GROOME:  So I'd ask that 1D 22-5303 be called up in e-court.

10        Q.   Ma'am, you should see that in the screen in front of you.  I

11     believe it'll be to your right, and if I could ask, with the assistance

12     of the usher, that the pen be made in blue so, again, we know that it's

13     your markings.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The court deputy has an announcement to make

16     about the map.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are unable to locate the maps in

18     e-court yet.  I would suggest that the Prosecution would make the

19     markings in blue on the same Defence exhibit, and I will cross-reference

20     this for the record.

21             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  Sensible solution.

22        Q.   If that could be placed, it will be placed in hard copy, like you

23     saw it before.  You'll be given a blue pen, and as that's being prepared

24     for you, what I would ask you to precisely as you're able if the area

25     known as Zupa is on that map, would you please draw the boundary of it or

Page 3991

 1     the approximate boundary of it.

 2        A.   All this area from Zupa [as interpreted] up to the last stop,

 3     Kamenica, further up from Rujiste, is called Zupa.  I don't know how to

 4     mark it.  It's a whole area from Visegrad to the last bus stop at

 5     Kamenica.  This whole area is called Zupa.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  At page 53, line 2,

 7     it should read, "All this area from Visegrad up to the last stop."

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Ma'am, before you make any mark, is it your testimony that

10     everything depicted on the map is Zupa, or is it on one side of the Drina

11     or the other?  Let me just understand how you define Zupa before I ask

12     you to make any marks.

13        A.   To the right of the Drina River, all the villages from Visegrad

14     to Rujiste.  All the areas -- all the villages around this area are

15     called Zupa.

16        Q.   So I would then ask you with the blue pen to please draw a line

17     around the approximate boundaries of Zupa and just write "Zupa" inside

18     it.

19        A.   Well, this whole area here.  The only thing I can do is just

20     extend this line here, to circle this area down to Visegrad.

21        Q.   If you would do that, please.

22        A.   This whole area to the right, from Rujiste to Visegrad.  You have

23     the mountains here, the hills, and all those villages are part of Zupa.

24        Q.   Yes.  Please circle all the villages that are part of Zupa,

25     please.  They don't have be individual circles.  Just one large circle to

Page 3992

 1     encompass all of Zupa.

 2        A.   Well, that's what I said.  It's all the way up, but in fact, the

 3     problem is that this pen is not working.  This whole region to the right

 4     of the Drina River all the way up to Rujiste and Kamenica.  It's called

 5     Zupa.

 6        Q.   We're getting you a working pen now.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

 8             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, just -- in dyslexia I misspoke.

 9     It's 1D 220503 is electronic and 0503, not 5303.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Maybe we'll find it now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of this down to Visegrad.  Yes,

12     well, like this.  To Visegrad, our people call all this area Zupa.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, you asked her to use a blue pen?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't really all that

15     precise, but this whole area here.

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The blue pen is so close to the colour.

18             MR. GROOME:  I thought a red pen was used before.

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I know, but I'm just saying it's not very

21     easy to distinguish it from the colour of the rest of the map.  Anyway,

22     we can proceed.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Could I ask you simply to write now "Zupa" inside the circle that

25     you've drawn.

Page 3993

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And just so the record is clear, Zupa is the area from Visegrad

 3     town going northward to Rujiste on the right bank of the Drina River; is

 4     that correct?  Or the eastern bank of the Drina River; correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'm finished with that exhibit.

 7             Now, how long has your family --

 8             MR. GROOME:  Actually, can we go into private session for this.

 9     Sorry.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3994











11  Pages 3994-3995 redacted. Private session.















Page 3996

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Madam, we're in public session.  If I ask you any question that

20     you think you would need to give information that would reveal your

21     identity, please let me know before you answer.  When did Milan Lukic

22     leave the area?

23        A.   Well, Milan Lukic left even before the 1990s.  I know he went to

24     Switzerland.  He lived there for a while.

25        Q.   Are you able to approximate the year that he left?

Page 3997

 1        A.   I can't, because I didn't meet with him, so I couldn't tell you

 2     which year.  I don't know.

 3        Q.   From the time that he left Rujiste or Visegrad until the time you

 4     say you saw him on June of 1992, had you seen him during that time

 5     period?

 6        A.   I saw him once again in 1990, and I didn't even recognize him on

 7     that occasion.  I asked the brother who was with me, Who is this boy,

 8     because he had grown up so fast, and my brother said, It's Milan Lukic.

 9     I'm sorry.  What caught my eye was that he was so nicely dressed, so

10     handsome, tall.  I hadn't seen him for a long time before that, and I

11     didn't recognize him immediately.

12        Q.   After this time that you saw him in the company of your brother

13     in 1990, did you see him again before you saw him in June of 1992?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Since you saw him in June of 1992, have you seen him again, have

16     you been in his presence again until today?

17        A.   No.  I saw him on television once.

18        Q.   Did you have any difficulty in recognizing him here in the

19     courtroom?

20        A.   I did not have any difficulty.  He's just older and heavier,

21     stouter.

22        Q.   When was the last time you had contact with any member of his

23     family in Rujiste?

24        A.   That was before the war.

25        Q.   And have you had any contact after the war?

Page 3998

 1        A.   That's before I left.  No.

 2        Q.   So even on those occasions when you say you'd like to return to

 3     the family property once a year, you don't call in on the Lukic family

 4     and see how they're doing and have a cup of coffee or something to that

 5     order?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know whether they're there still at all.  I don't

 7     know whether they're still in Rujiste or not.  I know nothing about that

 8     because I never went back, not even after the war to Rujiste.  I once

 9     went to Prelovo to get my birth certificate and the certificate of

10     citizenship, and I never went any further.

11        Q.   So ma'am, is it your evidence that you've never returned to see

12     your property in Rujiste.  Is that correct?

13        A.   Not since the war ended, never.

14        Q.   And who has told you that the house was overgrown and the

15     condition that you described?  Who gave you that information?

16        A.   My stepmother went there and my brother and my father while he

17     was still alive.

18        Q.   Now, I want to ask you about your statement.  In paragraph 4 of

19     your statement, you say the following:  "I met with Milan at the agreed

20     time and place," and this is in reference to your meeting on the 10th of

21     June.  "I met with Milan at the agreed time and place.  He told me he had

22     driven over some Muslim friends of him who were from the area of Visegrad

23     and that he did not have much time, that his mother was in the car

24     waiting for him to go back to Bosnia."

25             My question to you is, is it your testimony that Milan Lukic told

Page 3999

 1     you that the people that he had driven from Visegrad were friends of his?

 2        A.   Yes.  He said he had brought with him some people - Muslims,

 3     that's how he explained it - from the area Visegrad.  As to whether they

 4     were his friends or not, that he didn't say.

 5        Q.   So in your statement taken earlier this year where you say:  "He

 6     told me that he had driven over some Muslim friends of his ...", that is

 7     something that you're no longer sure he said to you?

 8        A.   I know he said Muslims, and I don't remember about friends.  It's

 9     possible that he said Muslim friends, but I don't recall that.

10        Q.   Ma'am, I'm going to ask that the statement be put up before you

11     so you can take a look at it.  It is 1D 22-0090, and again, it should

12     appear on the screen to your right.  And when it does appear, it's the

13     last sentence of the paragraph.

14             Have you been able to read the passage I'm referring to?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you agree with me that in the statement that you gave a few

17     months ago that you did say that Milan Lukic told you that they were his

18     friends?

19        A.   Yes, I agree that I stated that.  I did say Muslim friends, but

20     maybe I added that.  He didn't say whether he -- whether they were his

21     friends or not.  He said Muslims.

22        Q.   And you have a specific recollection today as you sit here that

23     he did not use the word "friends."  Is that what you're saying now?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In paragraph 5 of your statement, and I believe it'll be left up

Page 4000

 1     on the screen, so feel free to refer to it, you say that after you asked

 2     Milan Lukic to say hello to his mother, that he took you over to a car,

 3     and I quote:  "Milan took me to a blue car, opened the co-driver's door,

 4     helped his mother out to say hello to me."  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Had you ever seen that car before?

 7        A.   You mean his car, that particular car, or a car like that?

 8        Q.   That particular car.

 9        A.   No, I had not.

10        Q.   Do you have a clear recollection that it was blue?

11        A.   Yes, that much I remember.

12        Q.   Are you able to describe anything else about the car, the make,

13     the model, anything else?

14        A.   No.  No, I don't know because I didn't pay attention.  It wasn't

15     important to me.  I don't normally look at makes of cars.

16        Q.   Now, let me read another portion of your statement from paragraph

17     5, in which you describe a conversation with Milan Lukic's mother:  "She

18     said Milan had driven her to Belgrade for some medical check-ups."  Do

19     you remember saying that in your statement?

20        A.   Yes.  I remember that.

21        Q.   Now, in your testimony here today at page 19, line 4, you --

22             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry.  I just realized that the statement

23     that's up on the screen I hope is not being published.  It's got the

24     unredacted name of the witness.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement will not be broadcasted.

Page 4001

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   Ma'am, I'd like to ask you about something you said earlier today

 3     at transcript page 19, line 4, records you as saying:  "He" -- referring

 4     to Milan Lukic, "he told me that his mother was supposed to undergo some

 5     check-ups or some examinations on the 7th and that is why he had come to

 6     Belgrade with her."  Is it your evidence that he told you that that --

 7     those appointments were for the 7th?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Are you quite sure about that date?

10        A.   Yes.  I am sure about that date because when I called Draginja,

11     his sister, she said Milan was there, that she had ultrasound exam

12     appointment for the 7th, that he was out, but as soon as he comes back

13     she'll tell him to call me back.

14        Q.   Was there any conversation about what ailment Mrs. Lukic was

15     suffering from?  And if it's something of a personal nature, then please

16     let us -- tell us and we'll go into private session.

17        A.   I think it was something with her kidneys, a stone in the kidneys

18     that needed to be examined by ultrasound.

19        Q.   So Milan Lukic told you that he's bringing his mother for an

20     ultrasound examination and he's bringing her to Belgrade to have that

21     done.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  That is correct.

23        Q.   Did he tell you why he was taking her to Belgrade for the

24     ultrasound rather than the hospital that was in Visegrad itself?

25        A.   Honestly, I didn't ask, and I am doubtful that we had that sort

Page 4002

 1     of thing in Visegrad.  It's a small hospital, and if you needed the

 2     smallest thing we were referred to Uzice, Foca, Belgrade, any other

 3     place.  Only the most basic things could be treated in Visegrad.

 4        Q.   You've mentioned Uzice.  There's a full hospital in the town of

 5     Uzice.  Is that not correct?

 6        A.   It's not really large, but there is a hospital in Uzice.

 7        Q.   And would you agree with me that that's much closer to Visegrad

 8     than Belgrade?

 9        A.   I agree with you, but if you get a referral in Visegrad, Uzice

10     also cannot provide all the treatment that Belgrade can offer.  Uzice is

11     mainly for hospitalization, for maternity, delivery, that sort of stuff.

12        Q.   So it's your belief that Uzice might not have had the necessary

13     equipment to conduct an ultrasound examination.  Is that your testimony?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   I want to go back and ask you some questions related to your

16     place of birth.

17             MR. GROOME:  So I'd ask that we go into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4003











11  Pages 4003-4010 redacted. Private session.















Page 4011

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 4012

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Ma'am, I want to show you a list of names of people from the Zupa

 4     area, and just if you could tell me whether you recognize any of the

 5     names.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 0645-5166 be put up on e-court.

 7        Q.   Can I ask you just to look over that list and after you've done,

 8     if you could tell me whether or not you recognize any of the names on

 9     that list.

10        A.   No, I don't recognize any of the names.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MR. GROOME:  I'm finished with that exhibit.

13        Q.   I want to return now to your phone conversation with Milan Lukic.

14     At any time during the phone conversation with Milan Lukic or the time

15     that you met him in Novi Pazar, did you ever say to him, How does the

16     farm look, how do the livestock look, are they being cared for?  Did you

17     ever ask him how things were on the farm?

18        A.   I didn't ask him at all.  I merely inquired about my family.  I

19     didn't care about the livestock, and I didn't even assume that it was

20     there.  I expected that the livestock had been taken care of.  If they

21     had left, I assumed that they had taken the cattle with them, but I

22     didn't ask him that.  I assumed that Lukic would not go to my house to

23     check because the houses had been torched, to check, to see whether

24     anything of the sort was there.

25   (redacted)

Page 4013

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, can we perhaps redact page 74, lines 20

 6     through to 24.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   I'd like to put to you some information that I have from the

10     government of Bosnia with respect to MLD2, your brother.  The information

11     that I have is that your brother was in Zepa from April 1992 until it

12     fell in July of 1995.  Further, that he was a member of the Zepa Brigade

13     of the Army of the Federation of Bosnia, and that your family members

14     lived in a village called Pripecak near Zepa in a vacant house that

15     belonged to a person by the name of Avdo Ramic.

16             Ma'am, I want to ask you again and remind you of your obligation

17     to tell the truth here.  Where was your brother in June of 1992?

18        A.   In June 1992, my brother was still at Rujiste.

19        Q.   So it's your position that any other information contrary to that

20     would be mistaken?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, I want to speak to you a moment about protective measures.

23     You have requested and you've been granted protective measures, which

24     make it impossible for anyone to know your identity.  In the application

25     that was made on your behalf, the following was stated:  "In particular,

Page 4014

 1     she is afraid of Muslim nationalists, in particular, her" -- and the

 2     relative that I think you know who I'm referring to, I won't identify it

 3     more precisely than that -- "who is an extreme nationalist and related to

 4     some fire victims listed in the present indictment.  This relative has a

 5     propensity of violence proved by his conviction for killing three

 6     individuals following the war."

 7             You testified today that this person was convicted of -- or

 8     killed two people.  Which is it?  Is it two or is it three?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that calls for speculation.  She's not

10     the author of a submission made by the Defence team at the point where

11     counsel had just gotten into the case and had to meet the deadlines of

12     doing the alibi disclosure -- the protective measures disclosures.

13     It's -- and she said, I believe, in transcript two -- three.  So

14     Mr. Groome, if you'd cite the transcript, maybe you'd alleviate the

15     problem.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but she can clarify that.  She's not the

17     author of the request for protective measures, but it concerns her.  I

18     think she's in a position to provide the evidence.

19             MR. IVETIC:  But she's testified three today, so Mr. Groome is

20     misstating her evidence.

21             MR. GROOME:  I apologize.  I thought she said two.

22             MR. ALARID:  Page 35, line 1.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   So it three that -- three people that he killed?

25        A.   Based on the knowledge that I have, the information that I have,

Page 4015

 1     I don't know how accurate it was.  I heard that two people were killed

 2     and three people were wounded and he himself were wounded, too, as the

 3     fourth person.  They were all BH army members, fighters, soldiers.

 4        Q.   So it's two people killed and three people wounded.  That's your

 5     testimony today?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's the information that I have.  Now, I can't vouch for

 7     the accuracy of this information because I didn't have the indictment in

 8     front of me, the indictment containing the charges against him, but

 9     basically that was the incident.  That's the knowledge that I have, and I

10     know that he served time in prison for that.

11        Q.   Okay.  And then last week, I received a letter from Mr. Alarid

12     saying that Mr. Vilic had killed five and injured 22.  So to the

13     knowledge that you have, that's incorrect.  Is that not --

14             MR. ALARID:  And I would object as to the Prosecutor putting a

15     letter from me or anything in that.  That's my supposition, and that was

16     not communicated by this, and I think it's an improper question of the

17     witness.  Based on information that I had heard, but we're trying to get

18     the indictment and the judgement and sentence as we speak.  We're

19     probably making a Rule 54 application for said judgement and sentence.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why are you putting a letter from counsel?

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, this witness has been called to provide

22     this information about Mr. Vilic, and what I am demonstrating is here is

23     that it seems that it goes from two to three to five to 22 injured.  I

24     want to explore with this witness, is it she that's exaggerating?  True,

25     it is a supposition of Mr. Alarid, and that's my objection to the serious

Page 4016

 1     allegations, not only in this particular case not against the Prosecution

 2     but against a man who testified here that he killed three more people

 3     than he was convicted for.  I believe I'm entitled to put to this

 4     witness, did she ever tell Mr. Alarid or Mr. Ivetic --

 5             MR. ALARID:  She didn't.

 6             MR. GROOME:  -- that --

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I don't know.  This -- she has not

 8     testified to the five.  That's not even in evidence.  Mr. Groome just

 9     brought it in.  I don't understand what he's doing with this -- with

10     this -- he's trying to back-door in his own actions as being the basis

11     for his questions.  I've never heard of that before.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You can put the statement in Mr. Alarid's letter

13     to her [sic] but not what she told Mr. Alarid.

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   Did you ever state to anyone that Mr. Vilic had killed five

16     people and injured 22 people?

17        A.   Never to anyone, and I never made any statements or entered into

18     any polemics or anything.  The only thing that I did was I gave a

19     statement to the Defence counsel who came to get a statement from me in

20     defence of Milan Lukic.  I never gave any statements anywhere else to

21     anyone.

22        Q.   Now, going back to --

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Sorry.  I just see on the transcript where I

24     said, "You can put the statement in Mr. Alarid's letter to her."  That

25     should have been Mr. Alarid's letter to you, because that's what you

Page 4017

 1     said.  So if I said that, I misspoke.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Now, again, where you say you were afraid of Muslim nationalists,

 4     when Mr. Ivetic asked you to describe what made you fearful, what made

 5     you feel intimidated, the first thing you said was that you had many

 6     phone calls on your phone, no one ever said anything, but you had many

 7     phone calls that you found suspicious.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And once you got a cordless phone, it seemed that the problem was

10     corrected.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And then the other thing that you found suspicious or

13     intimidating or you feared was that you saw vehicles drive down your

14     street that you did not recognize.  Is that correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Did you ever file a report to the police about either of these

17     events?

18        A.   I did not because I did not want to.  I did not want to reveal

19     myself as a witness.  That's why I never reported it.

20        Q.   But certainly, couldn't you have just called the police and

21     said -- without revealing that you're a witness and said, I'm receiving

22     phone calls and I see cars that concern me?

23        A.   Well, you know what?  How could I report to the police that I'm

24     seeing unknown cars, unfamiliar cars?  The police would tell me, Well,

25     it's a public road, anybody has the right to use it.

Page 4018

 1        Q.   What about seeing cars you did not recognize and having your

 2     phone ring, no one answer?  What made you think that you had something to

 3     fear from Muslim nationalists?

 4        A.   Well, I thought that because all those cars were new cars that I

 5     had never noticed passing by before, and I know the people who live

 6     around me, people who normally pass by.  I recognise them.  None of them

 7     have very new, shiny cars, so I thought these must be some services.

 8        Q.   Why not thieves or people engaged in any number of things in the

 9     neighborhood?  Why Muslim nationalists?

10        A.   Thieves have no reason to do that because they have nothing to

11     steal.  It's a rural area where people make their living on farming.

12     They have no capital for thieves to be interested in.

13        Q.   Now, ma'am, isn't it correct that despite the protective

14     measures, just the content of your testimony here today, this relative

15     that I've referred to, it'll be clear to that person who are you.  Is

16     that not correct?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, it's not an objection, but counsel --

18     if counsel, when that gentleman was here testifying, counsel gave him a

19     pseudonym sheet identifying this witness, so he definitely knows.  And

20     when I say counsel, I mean whoever the Prosecutor was that was on direct

21     examination of Mr. Hamdija Vilic.

22             MR. GROOME:  And I'm the one yesterday that was twice -- that was

23     accused of testifying.  I think we've heard a bit of testimony from both

24     counsel.  If I could just ask the question to --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ask the question again.

Page 4019

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   Do you have any doubt that the person just by the nature of your

 3     testimony will realize that it's you?

 4        A.   I don't know whether that person hearing what I said would

 5     realize it's me, but I suppose he would because I heard that my brother

 6     was receiving threats and other things.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that will be redacted.

19             MR. IVETIC:  And I don't know, this is the first time in my --

20     and I'm going on, I think, nine or this is my 10th year, I believe -- 9th

21     year at the Tribunal, this is the first time I've heard witnesses being

22     asked about the protective measures and being attacked about the

23     protective measures that they've sought.  That's under the Statute.

24     They're entitled to them --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Slow down, please.  Slow down, please.

Page 4020

 1             MR. IVETIC:  This honorable Trial Chamber is granted the

 2     protective measures that were sought and I think the counsel's question

 3     is, at this point, harassment of the witness rather than anything that

 4     can be of probative value.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't agree at all.  It's a perfectly proper

 6     question in the circumstances.  Answer the question, please.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   Can you please answer the question?

 9        A.   You know what?  If I were unable to receive protective

10     measures -- I sought them for my own safety, and my safety is still in

11     danger if anybody finds out that I appeared here as a witness.  If I had

12     not been granted protective measures, then I would have come anyway, come

13     what may.

14        Q.   I want to now ask you about MLD2, who's also scheduled to testify

15     in this case.  Did you speak with him prior to coming to The Hague?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   When is the last time you spoke with him?

18        A.   Perhaps a year ago.

19        Q.   And last week was an important Muslim holiday.  You didn't call

20     him to exchange greetings or to wish him well?

21        A.   I did not call him lest the information about my testifying

22     should leak, and he doesn't even know that I'm -- that I was to appear as

23     a witness.

24        Q.   So it's your evidence that your -- MLD2 has no idea, or not at

25     least from you, that you are a witness in this case?

Page 4021

 1        A.   I'm sure he doesn't know.

 2        Q.   Why are you sure that he doesn't know?

 3        A.   Well, he doesn't know from me, for sure.  I don't know if he

 4     learned from someone else, but certainly not from me.  He doesn't know

 5     that I'm here or that I will testify.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness -- let us go into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   Ma'am, you must be terribly frightened of Hamdija Vilic if he's

Page 4022

 1     the reason why you haven't spoken to your brother in a year.  Am I

 2     correct in that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you've testified earlier that you never told Hamdija Vilic

 5     that you were going to be a witness in this case.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   If you're so fearful of Hamdija Vilic, how is it when he asked

 8     you to have a meeting with the Milan Defence team in your home, you

 9     actually invite him into your home to have that meeting?

10        A.   Well, I invited him because he said he would come to testify,

11     tell the truth, and give a statement to the lawyers.  At that time, I had

12     nothing to fear, not in that connection because he agreed to come, and he

13     was the one who insisted he would only come to my house because he was

14     afraid of balijas, as he called them, in Sarajevo, because he is afraid

15     of Muslims just as I am, and he didn't want to meet with the lawyers in

16     Sarajevo.

17        Q.   When's the last time you spoke to Hamdija Vilic before this day?

18        A.   I talked to him when he called me - I don't know where from - and

19     he just said, Are the lawyers still in touch with you, are they calling

20     you, and I said, No, why would they, there's no need, and I hung up.

21     That's how long that conversation lasted, and that was the last time.

22        Q.   I believe that phone call is after the meeting.  What I'm talking

23     to you about is prior to the time that he called you up and says, Can I

24     meet with the lawyers in your home.  Prior to that phone call, when's the

25     last time you spoke with Hamdija Vilic?

Page 4023

 1        A.   That phone call was before his coming here to testify, perhaps a

 2     few days before, a couple of days before.

 3        Q.   Now, I'm talking to you about when did he call you up and request

 4     for you to invite him to his [sic] home to have a meeting with the

 5     Milan Lukic Defence team?

 6        A.   One day before, he met with the lawyers for the Defence.  He said

 7     he would come the next morning.  I told him he's free to come the night

 8     before and the stay the night in our house.  Instead, he came the next

 9     day, very early in the morning at 8 or 9.

10        Q.   How did he know that the lawyers were going to be in your house

11     the next day?

12        A.   Because I told him they were coming, and I asked him whether he

13     preferred for them to come to Sarajevo or for him to come over.  It was

14     easier for the lawyers to go to Sarajevo, but he insisted that he

15     wouldn't meet them in Sarajevo, that he would meet them instead at my

16     place.

17        Q.   If he doesn't know that you're a witness in the case, why does he

18     call you to make contact with the Defence team?

19        A.   Because I asked him if he was willing to -- in fact, the lawyers

20     asked me if Hamdija Vilic was going to testify.  I conveyed that to him,

21     and he said, yes, he would, and that's why he got in touch with me to

22     contact them, because the lawyers did not have his number.  They were not

23     able to contact him themselves.

24        Q.   When did you ask Hamdija Vilic if he was willing to testify?

25        A.   Just the day before the lawyers came, the day before he arrived

Page 4024

 1     and the lawyers came to my house as well.

 2        Q.   And you called him and asked him whether he's willing to testify?

 3        A.   Yes, and he said he was willing, that he was going to testify.

 4        Q.   So, again -- let's see if I understand this.  This person who you

 5     are so fearful of that you have broken off contact with your brother, you

 6     call him to ask him if he's willing to be a witness in the Milan Lukic

 7     case, for the Defence, and you invite him to stay in your home, to sleep

 8     there the night before the meeting.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  But at that time, I had no reason to fear his visit.  I

10     just asked him nicely if he wanted to be a witness.  He said yes.  He

11     just said that he wanted protection measures, that he wanted to testify

12     but not in public, and there was no problem.  I had no reason to be

13     afraid.

14        Q.   But, ma'am, you've told us that you broke off contact -- or you

15     haven't had contact with your brother in a year, and it's because of his

16     relationship with Hamdija Vilic.

17             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, one of the --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because Hamdija Vilic lives

19     close --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute, please.  Let's hear counsel.

21             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I don't want to speak for Mr. Groome

22     but one of my fears is that this line of questioning began right at the

23     point where he asked him [sic], Did you call your brother for a Muslim

24     holiday, a recent one, and then that backed up into the year, I guess.

25     And I want to know if there's some confusion and if counsel could clarify

Page 4025

 1     for the witness.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  And it misstates her testimony as saying she was

 3     only afraid of Hamdija Vilic.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'm now confused.  Proceed, Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Ma'am, there seems to be some confusion over what you're giving

 7     evidence about now, so let me see if I can clarify it.  As you sit here,

 8     taking today's date, is it true that have you not spoken to your brother,

 9     MLD2, for one year?

10        A.   Correct.  Correct.  I stand behind -- by what I said.  I have not

11     talked to my brother in that time.

12        Q.   Now, when Judge Robinson asked you why that was, did you not say

13     that that was because of your brother's relationship with Hamdija Vilic,

14     who you are fearful of?

15        A.   Correct.  Hamdija Vilic lives close to my brother.  He calls on

16     him often.  They are friends, and that's why I do not dare contact my

17     brother.  My brother might say that I talked to him, and he might reveal

18     that I was going to be a witness.  That's why I did not contact him.

19     There's no other reason.

20        Q.   And when you had the meeting with the Defence team, the date that

21     I've been told that occurred was sometime in June, when you had that

22     meeting, the night before -- or I'm sorry.  You invited Hamdija Vilic to

23     stay in your home, to sleep in your home, in advance of that meeting,

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes, unless he's able to come early in the morning, I told him,

Page 4026

 1     You can come and stay the night.  I invited him as a relative because he

 2     had said already he was going to be a witness.

 3        Q.   Ma'am, I put it to you that the reason that you no longer speak

 4     to your brother is that you were paid 21.000 Euros to secure his

 5     testimony, that you only gave him 5.000 Euros of the money that you

 6     received and you kept the rest, and that when he found out about that he

 7     became very angry with you and he has refused to speak with you.  Isn't

 8     that really what's happened here?

 9        A.   That's not true.  I never received, not only 21.000 Euros, I

10     never received a single mark.  As for Hamdija Vilic and his ilk are

11     making up, has he seen me get any money?  I don't understand what kind of

12     story that is.

13        Q.   Ma'am, it's not only Hamdija Vilic.  There is another person who

14     makes a very similar claim.  Are you denying that you've received any

15     money -- let's just confine ourselves to MLD2.  Are you denying that you

16     received any money to secure the testimony of MLD2?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, there's no foundation for the question

18     unless he specifies who the other person is and the basis for the same.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The question is:  "Are you denying that you

20     received any money to secure the testimony of MLD2?"

21             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Why does that need a foundation?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Well, because it's tied together with his previous

24     statement that says, "Ma'am, it's not only Hamdija Vilic.  There's

25     another person who makes a very similar claim."  If counsel is going to

Page 4027

 1     make a representation like that, I'd like to get a citation.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, but the question itself isn't necessarily

 3     relate to that.  The witness can answer it.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please answer.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.  Which question

 7     am I supposed to answer?

 8             MR. GROOME:  If it assists the Court, I'll --

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Reformulate, and then we'll have to stop

10     after this.

11             MR. GROOME:

12        Q.   Ma'am, I'm putting it to you as plainly as I can that you have

13     received money in order to buy the testimony of your brother, MLD2, and

14     that the reason that he no longer speaks with you is because he

15     discovered that you kept some of the money that you were given to buy his

16     testimony.  He feels cheated by you and no longer wants to come and

17     testify.  Is that not true?

18        A.   That's not true.  My brother was a witness and said would be a

19     witness even before I knew it.  Even before I was aware of such a

20     possibility, he told me that he was going to come to testify.  He was the

21     one who volunteered the information.  I heard from him that he was going

22     to be a witness.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, we're going to adjourn.  I have some

24     matters to deal with.  Witness, that concludes your testimony for today.

25     For today.  You will have to return when we resume in January, and that

Page 4028

 1     will be Wednesday, January 14th, at 2.15 p.m.  Wednesday, January the

 2     14th.

 3             Now, I have to tell you that during the break, this will be a

 4     break of about three and a half weeks, you are not to discuss your

 5     evidence with anybody.  Do you understand that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may leave now.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

10             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, my concern is this, is we have the

11     witness here, and I'm not sure what Mr. Groome had in terms of additional

12     cross-examination, but it seems wasteful if it wasn't going to be

13     significant that we don't complete it before the witness leaves town,

14     considering the long break.  It's not just a weekend.  It's three and a

15     half weeks.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, how much more did you have in

17     cross-examination?

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I do have a fair bit, and if you'll

19     recall from earlier on, with some of the surprises that occurred during

20     the testimony, I would like the benefit of the additional time.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  So the position will remain the same.  I

22     have a decision to give.  On the 12th of December, 2008, the Prosecution

23     filed a motion seeking an order to bar the alibi-related evidence of

24     several witnesses for Milan Lukic in total or in part.  The Prosecution

25     argues that the Defence of Milan Lukic has not met its obligations to

Page 4029

 1     notify the Prosecution of the alibi witnesses pursuant to Rule 67.

 2             The motion is premature in view of the fact that the final

 3     witness list of Milan Lukic is to be filed by the 5th of January, 2009.

 4     It is therefore dismissed without prejudice to the Prosecution making

 5     further witness-specific objections if necessary once the witness list

 6     has been filed.

 7             The Trial Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's request -- I

 8     should have said that that's the end of that decision.  The second matter

 9     is this.  The Trial Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's request for

10     clarification of confidential classification of contempt proceedings and

11     motion to leave to exceed word limit in response to oral submissions of

12     9th December, 2008, and related submissions of 12th December, 2008.  This

13     was filed on the 16th of December.  The Chamber orders the Defence to

14     file its response to the remaining matter contained in this motion,

15     namely the clarification of confidential classification of contempt

16     proceedings by 4 p.m. tomorrow.

17             Now, I want to say additionally that we have had some exchanges

18     between counsel which have been -- I describe them as relatively heated.

19     I don't want to have a repetition.  I am fully accustomed to vigorous

20     Prosecution and vigorous Defence, but I expect counsel to behave with

21     equanimity.  Counsel should always remember that counsel is an officer of

22     the court, whose primary duty is the pursuit of justice and to assist the

23     Chamber in its work.  So I do not wish to have a repeat of the heated

24     exchanges which have taken place between counsel.

25             Is there any other matter?

Page 4030

 1             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's a matter that I raised

 2     yesterday, and it's the difficulty of preparing for our work when we

 3     still don't have the witness list.  Under the rules, it should have been

 4     provided prior to the commencement of trial.  Now we're going to -- it

 5     seems like we're going to receive it well beyond that and just prior to

 6     restarting.  Again, I bear the burden of disproving this alibi, and it's

 7     very difficult to do that without the witness list as required by the

 8     rules.  I'm therefore requesting, I know there are a number of things

 9     that the Chamber's order had required of the Defence by the

10     5th of January, including better summaries.  I would ask to request that

11     the Chamber prior to the break, prior to tomorrow afternoon, that Defence

12     be required at least to tell us who the 45 witnesses that they are going

13     to call so that we can begin our preparations.  Right now, it stands at

14     90.  As I said yesterday, it's a tremendous waste of resources.  It's

15     difficult to do with people taking their holidays over the break for me

16     to have people working on this.  It puts us at a disadvantage.  It's

17     against the rules, and I would ask you to at least require them to let us

18     know who the witnesses are.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

21             MR. ALARID:  Respectfully, Your Honour, we would simply ask that

22     the January 5th order that's in place or the order for January 5th final

23     witness list be kept in place.  Mr. Ivetic is going to be working over

24     the holidays in the region trying to do exactly what the Court requests,

25     and we anticipate being able to comply with the Court with that time.

Page 4031

 1     Doing it by tomorrow would make it really difficult for us to comply with

 2     the Court's request today that we file before 4 p.m. tomorrow as well as

 3     Judge Bonomy who's required submissions by tomorrow as well.  So, under

 4     the -- the totality of the circumstances, I don't think the state's

 5     particularly prejudiced considering the trial began in this case on

 6     July 9th, and they didn't file their final witness list until July 17th,

 7     and there were several motions to amend that list over the course of time

 8     that we dealt with appropriately.  So in a grand-scheme-of-things

 9     approach, it would be disingenuous for us to say we can get that done by

10     tomorrow without probably stepping on our own toes a little bit later,

11     considering it's premature for us as well.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, we're trying to find a fair solution,

14     Mr. Alarid and Mr. Groome, and we think it is this, that the Defence be

15     required to file the first ten witnesses by the 26th of December and the

16     remaining 35 by the 5th of January, by the 5th of January.

17             MR. ALARID:  We can do that, Your Honour.  Absolutely.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  We are adjourned, and have a

19     merry Christmas.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

22                           January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.