Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4032

 1                           Wednesday, 14 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I thought I'd take this opportunity before the

 6     witness is called to deal with some matters.  First, the remaining number

 7     of witnesses and hours for the Defence case, I am to say that the Chamber

 8     will issue an order shortly indicating the number of hours left in the

 9     Defence case.  The Defence will be aware that some hours have already

10     been lost for reasons which are very well known to it.

11             The next matter relates to the question of experts.  Mr. Ivetic,

12     we have been told that you intend to call six experts, but we have

13     received neither reports nor a full statement, and as you're aware, the

14     other party must have 30 days in which to respond.  The Chamber will

15     issue an order shortly setting time limits in relation to this matter.

16             Again, Mr. Ivetic, you have a request for a video-link.  You're

17     seeking to have these witnesses video-linked next week, I believe, but as

18     you would know, two weeks' notice is required for the Registry to make

19     these arrangements.  The Chamber will immediately order that you file

20     medical certificates supporting the submissions made in annex B to the

21     motion filed on Friday, the 16th of January, and these must -- the

22     certificates must be filed by Friday the 16th, and I want to stress that

23     this is to be done by 4 p.m.

24             The next matter relates to -- I believe we have to go into

25     private session for this.

Page 4033

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Page 4034











11  Pages 4034-4037 redacted. Private session.















Page 4038

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

12             MR. IVETIC:  And while we're waiting for the witness, Your

13     Honour, if I could just inquire as to the time remaining for Mr. Groome

14     in cross-examination of the sitting witness given the Court's ruling as

15     to MLD15.  I need to make sure the victims and witnesses has sufficient

16     time to bring the next witness in after the completion of the direct.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just before the bring the witness, let me

18     inquire.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The Prosecutor took an hour and 23 minutes.  The

22     Defence has so far used ...

23                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Sorry.  It's the other way around.  The Defence

25     took an hour and 23 minutes, and the Prosecutor has so far used an hour

Page 4039

 1     and 6 minutes.  In the circumstances, Mr. Groome, I'll give you another

 2     45 minutes.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Please call the witness.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, such a long time has elapsed.  I

 7     think we'll have the witness make the declaration again.  Let the witness

 8     make the declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD10 [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

16        Q.   Ma'am, I'd like to resume my questions to you on the topic of

17     evidence that you gave last time with respect to your brother and your

18     uncle being with Milan Lukic on the 27th and 28th of June.  My first

19     question to you is, is your uncle with them at the time?

20        A.   I don't understand the question.  I'm sorry.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if we could perhaps have a transcript

22     reference.  I think Mr. Groome has misspoken as to the prior evidence,

23     but I must have got some other transcript reference, I thought it was --

24     I don't want to influence the testimony, but I think it's another

25     individual and the brother.

Page 4040

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   I'm simply asking you, you've given evidence that Milan Lukic was

 3     with your father and your brother on St. Vitus day in 1992, correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   Was your uncle with them at the time?

 6        A.   I don't know that.  My father told me that they were at

 7     Milan Lukic's place, the father and the brother.  I don't know about my

 8     uncle, whether he was there, too, or not.

 9        Q.   Now, if I recall your testimony correctly, it's that after the

10   female members of your family fled (redacted), your father and your brother

11     remained behind to take care of the livestock on the family farm in

12     (redacted).  Have I remembered your testimony correctly?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   Now, over the break I've had an opportunity to look at your

15     brother's statement, and I must put to you that it contradicts you in

16     several important regards, and the first one that I -- the first way that

17     it contradicts you is that according to your brother, your father was

18   living in the town -- in the area of Visegrad known as (redacted), which is

19     just south of the town.  Are you sure it's your -- or do you maintain

20     it's your evidence that your father was living in the area of (redacted)

21     during this period?

22       A.   My father was living in (redacted) throughout, and he did not move

23    at any point.  It was my brother who owned a house in (redacted), not this

24     brother that we're talking about but the other, late brother of mine, who

25     was killed at one point, owned a house in (redacted).

Page 4041

 1        Q.   Well, let me read from paragraph 2 of your brother's statement

 2     what he says about where your father was to see if it refreshes your

 3     recollection about what that brother told you.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             Does that cause you to change your evidence about where your

 9     father was in the spring of 1992 and whether or not he was -- remained in

10     (redacted)?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I would object to the cause for

12     speculation if they're presenting the statement of a person who's not in

13     this courtroom.  This is the type of thing that this honorable Trial

14     Chamber has denied the Defence the opportunity to do with Prosecution

15     witnesses time and again, and Mr. Groome has objected time and again, and

16     he's taking this statement, this particular section of the statement that

17     does not comport to the question he'd asked previously, and he's

18     speculating as to what this individual meant when he made this statement.

19     So I would object that it's an out-of-court declaration of a person who's

20     not present, and for the law of the case that we've developed in this

21     case, it should not be used to present to this witness.  There are

22     countless Prosecution witnesses that we tried to present statements by

23     family members on pertinent issues, and we were denied that opportunity.

24     So I think that quality of arms and fairness dictate that Mr. Groome --

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I agree.  We prohibited questions of that

Page 4042

 1     nature in response to submissions from the Prosecutor.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may be heard, there's a very

 3     important difference here, and the difference is that this woman has

 4     testified that the man who made this statement told her that the father

 5     lived in (redacted).  I'm putting to her his statement that he says the

 6   father was not living in (redact).  He was living in (redact), so it's very

 7     different from a situation where I'm putting something that's completely

 8     unrelated.  She's given evidence about what the declarant of this

 9     statement has said to her, and when we look at the statement of this man,

10     it's something completely different.  It's a very different situation.

11             MR. IVETIC:  And I'll be brief, but in that case I'd ask to call

12     back all the Prosecution witnesses.  I remember one in particular.  I

13     think it was K-64 who said her husband said that Milan Lukic took him

14     away.  We tried to present the sworn statement of the Prosecutor of the

15     husband that said that it was not Milan Lukic, and we were denied that

16     opportunity, so again I believe it's the exact same situation, and

17     Mr. Groome is trying to draw straws where there aren't any.  It's the

18     same situation.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, and I also note I'm not seeking to

21     introduce this statement as Defence counsel sought to introduce theirs.

22     I'm simply putting what the brother has said about it, just to see if it

23     causes her to alter her testimony here.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, the Chamber considers that it is

25     essentially the same -- the same kind of objection that was raised in the

Page 4043

 1     Prosecution's case.  We will not allow the question.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Am I permitted to ask if it refreshes her

 3     recollection as to what her brother may have said to her, Your Honour?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think that that will have the same effect, so

 5     move on to another area, please.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   Ma'am, is it not a fact that your father during this period of

 8     time, the time that you say that he was still in (redacted), was not in

 9     (redacted) at all but was living in the town of Visegrad?  Is that not a

10     fact?

11        A.   I know my father told me that he was living in (redacted), and he

12   was living in (redacted). He was living in (redacted). Now, he probably was

13   in a position to travel to (redacted), as well, because his son's house was

14    over there, so he may have spent some time in (redacted), but he was never

15     actually living there in terms of being resident there, not as far as I

16     know, but I wasn't at home all the time so maybe at some point in time he

17 was spending time in (redacted). And I certainly can't be expected to comment

18     on my brother's statement because they were together.  I know my father

19  told me that they were together.  Did he go to (redacted) or not at the time

20     is not something that I can say.

21        Q.   Ma'am, when did your father die?

22        A.   Three years ago.  Three or four years ago.

23        Q.   Now, you told us in response to a question from Mr. Ivetic that

24     after your husband died, you moved back from Montenegro, and you moved to

25     Bosnia.  Is that correct?

Page 4044

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   And your husband died in 2001.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, I want to read to you a portion of a question Mr. Ivetic

 5     posed to you and your answer and then ask you a question about it, and

 6     this is -- I'm quoting from transcript 3965.

 7             "Now, madam, madam, you had started testifying about when you had

 8     moved to Zenica and had met up with your family, that is to say your

 9     brother -- pardon me, your father, and they told you everything.  Could

10     you please try to complete your answer to my question which originally

11     was that, Did you ever have an opportunity to confirm with your family

12     members whether Milan gave this gift packet to them as you had requested

13     him to do?

14             "A:  Yes, my father confirmed that and so did my brother."

15             My question to you is that you spoke with your father and your

16     brother about these events after you returned to Bosnia; is that correct?

17        A.   I spoke to my relatives even before I came to visit.  We'd spoken

18     about that.  I asked them about that because I'd been there once with my

19     husband who died in Bosnia after the war.  And also after this, when I

20     came back, I spoke about the war to them.  They told me about their

21     experience, how they got through the whole thing, and told me about all

22     of this because I wasn't in Bosnia myself at the time.

23        Q.   When was it that your father or your brother first confirmed to

24     you this account that you've relayed about St. Vitus Day?

25        A.   My brother confirmed this when I came to visit with my husband.

Page 4045

 1     I left with my husband for the barracks and I brought him back home so

 2     that we could see him and speak to him, and we talked about his

 3     experience during the war, and he told me that he had received a gift

 4     from Milan Lukic, which is something that I had sent.

 5        Q.   Miss, I understand.  I'm just asking you when, what year, and if

 6     you're able, what month.

 7        A.   It might have been in 2000.  It was a year before my husband died

 8     that I traveled to Bosnia.

 9        Q.   So at the very earliest, five years after the war is the first

10     time that your brother and your father confirmed to you this event that

11     you've described for us.  It's five years, correct, after the war ended?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13        Q.   I'm sorry.  Your answer has not been recorded for the record.

14     Can I ask you maybe just to speak a little bit closer to the mike?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   And eight years after the event itself, correct?

17        A.   I don't know how long after the event, but I know that it was

18     then that they told me this.  They hadn't really had an opportunity

19     previously, and I didn't know their whereabouts.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can you just explain that, why you say

21     that "they hadn't really had an opportunity previously ..."

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  There had never been an

23     opportunity previously.  I didn't go there.  I didn't know their

24     whereabouts.  I didn't speak to them, and I didn't go to Bosnia myself.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

Page 4046

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   Now, you've been put forward as a character witness, as well, and

 3     I want to be clear, you were not an eye-witness to any of the events that

 4     occurred in Visegrad in the spring of 1992.  Is that not correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And your evidence relating to Milan Lukic's character is based on

 7     what you have testified about here, that he was a good neighbor to your

 8     family growing up and that he helped your brother and father in 1992,

 9     correct?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   Now, you left Visegrad in 1990 and did not see Milan Lukic until

12     1992.  Is that not correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And between 1992 and the time you saw him in the courtroom here

15     in December, you had not had any interaction with him.  Is that correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And you do know that Milan Lukic left Visegrad when he completed

18     his training at secondary school; correct?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   So most of your knowledge of Milan Lukic related to his character

21     is based upon your experience of him prior to the time he left secondary

22     school in Visegrad ; correct?

23        A.   Well, that's correct.  I did see him back in 1990 as well.  We

24     had a talk, and I'd never heard anyone in Visegrad municipality or in my

25     village say anything other than the impression that I had of his

Page 4047

 1     character, that is, before the war.  Now, as to now, I don't really know.

 2        Q.   But based on your own personal experience of him, most of that

 3     relates to the time when he was a boy.  Is that not correct?

 4        A.   Well, he wasn't exactly a boy.  I'm talking about 1990.  The war

 5     began in 1992.  Even during the war, if you look at it that way, he was

 6     still a boy.  He might have been, what, 23 to 25 years of age or

 7     thereabouts, so -- well, a boy, not a completely mature man, you might

 8     say.

 9        Q.   But my point is when you use words like gracious, extremely

10     humane, nice, noble, positive character, as far as you've based that on

11     your own personal experience of him, that really relates to the time when

12     you were living in (redacted) and he was a neighbor of yours and you had

13     regular interaction with him.  Is that not correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   You have not spoken directly to any survivors of some of the

16     crimes that occurred in Visegrad and may say something different about

17     Milan Lukic, have you?

18        A.   I've never had an opportunity to talk to the many such people.

19     The one opportunity that I did have was when I saw something on TV.  It

20     was SENSE, the agency, broadcasting trials from the Tribunal, but all the

21     things that I keep hearing indicate that an entirely different person is

22     being described here.

23        Q.   Now, I want to draw your attention to last December.  When you

24     testified about trying to contact Milan Lukic to find out about your

25     family, did you make any efforts with other people prior to trying to

Page 4048

 1     contact Milan Lukic?  Were there other people you sought this information

 2     from?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Who were they, please?

 5        A.   Well, I can say that I once got in touch with Sreten Lukic.

 6        Q.   Can you describe when that was and summarise the conversation you

 7     had with Mr. Sreten Lukic.

 8        A.   It was sometime before I contacted Milan.  He said he knew

 9     nothing about my family.  He was sorry.  He said that he hadn't really

10     gone to Visegrad much and that he was sorry not to be able to share more

11     than that with me.

12        Q.   Was Sreten Lukic the only other person that you attempt to

13     contact to get information about your family?

14        A.   I tried to contact his sister, Miljana Lukic.  I forget what her

15     married name is.  She's a cousin, and she was living in Uzice, and I

16     called her to see if she knew anything about my family.

17        Q.   Now, with your evidence with respect to contacting Milan Lukic,

18     it's your evidence that after several years after both you and

19     Milan Lukic have moved away from Visegrad that you call his sister on a

20     particular day, and it just so happens that Milan Lukic is in the

21     vicinity of his sister, and he calls you back that very same day.  That's

22     your evidence; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   When was the first time you had contact with any member of the

25     Milan Lukic Defence team?

Page 4049

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I'll object to the relevance, Your Honour.  How is

 3     that relevant to the testimony of this witness?

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, every Prosecution witness nearly has

 6     been asked about contacts with Prosecution lawyers and investigators.  I

 7     mean, certainly the number of times that she has had conversations about

 8     this case with members of the Defence team is something relevant and

 9     subject to --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Proceed.

11             MR. GROOME:

12        Q.   Ma'am, who was the first person that you had contact with with

13     respect to this case?

14        A.   The first and last persons were the lawyers, the members of the

15     team that I described, the people who signed my statement.

16        Q.   And those are the people that came to your home on the 22nd of

17     June?

18        A.   Yes.  That was when they took my statement.

19        Q.   And you had no contact with any other members of the team?

20        A.   No, none.

21        Q.   And the names of those two people were Mr. Rasic and

22     Mr. Lakcevic; is that correct?

23        A.   I don't know what the family name of the other man was.  I know

24     his name was Vladimir, but that's all I can remember.  I can't remember

25     the other man's name.  There is a signature on my statement.

Page 4050

 1        Q.   If someone had a good friend that was named Vladimir, what would

 2     be the familiar form of Vladimir that one would use?

 3        A.   I don't really know.  I don't know what that person would be

 4     called.

 5        Q.   Would the familiar form of Vladimir not be Vlado?

 6        A.   It's possible that it would be so.

 7        Q.   Well, during the course of your direct testimony, you refer to

 8     one of the people that came to see you in your house twice as Vlado.  At

 9     Transcript 3979, you said:  "Vlado was in a pair of shorts."  "Vlado was

10     wearing jeans."

11             Are you sure you only met with Mr. Rasic, or Vladimir, the person

12     you know as Vladimir, on this occasion, only once?

13        A.   Yes, that was when he took my statement.

14        Q.   Now, on the 18th of December, you testified how Milan Lukic

15    helped your brother and father escape (redacted) by escorting them down to

16     the Drina River where relatives of yours from the other side of the Drina

17     crossed over in a boat and took them across.  When you testified to this,

18     you never mentioned your uncle.  My question to you is, was your uncle

19 with them at the time that he went down to the Drina and escaped (redacted)?

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just a minute.  Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  It's actually I think a translation issue.

22     The term "boat" translates into a -- it's a little bit difficult to

23     discuss in English.  In B/C/S, it translates into "brodom" [phoen], which

24     is a large ship, whereas the witness I believe in her testimony in the

25     transcript talked about a "camac", which is a smaller type of vessel, so

Page 4051

 1     just putting that out there, that the word that's being used in the

 2     English has alternate meanings in B/C/S that are not quite comporting to

 3     the testimony of the witness.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  Yes.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Do you remember my question?

 7        A.   Yes.  It was a boat, and my uncle -- I don't know whether anybody

 8     else was with them.  What I do know is that there were my brother and my

 9     father there with them.  Could you repeat your question maybe?  I did not

10     understand it quite.

11        Q.   My question to you is, at the time when Milan Lukic escorts your

12     father and your brother to the Drina and they escape safely, is your

13     uncle with them?  Does he escape at the same time?

14        A.   I think that he wasn't.  They didn't tell me that he was.  It's

15     possible that he was there, but they didn't mention him.

16        Q.   Do you know how your uncle would have escaped if he was not with

17     them at that time?

18        A.   My uncle and all my family and relatives had departed for Zepa

19     previously.  Nobody was chasing them.  They just left that place.  When

20     the shooting started, when the war started, they moved out.

21        Q.   So it's your evidence today that your uncle left with the female

22     members of your family?

23        A.   Yes.  When they left home, all of them, the men would on occasion

24     return as needed to their homes to collect items, food, clothing.

25        Q.   So is it your evidence now that your father and brother had left

Page 4052

 1     Visegrad and had been returning to (redacted) periodically?  Is that your

 2     evidence today?

 3        A.   I'm not saying that when it concerns my father and brother, but

 4     I'm talking about my uncle and the other members of the family, they

 5     would come back on occasion.  They had stowed away food, flour.  They

 6     would take out such items from the house to the forest and then would

 7     come back to collect them.  This is what they told me.

 8        Q.   Then later in your testimony on the 18th of December, you testify

 9     that after Milan Lukic helped your father and brother escape, they

10     returned to get the three family cows, and they brought them across the

11     Drina on a boat.  Do you remember testifying to that?

12        A.   Yes, I do remember, and this is how it unfolded.  We had many

13     heads of cattle, and they managed to transfer all of their cattle across

14     the Drina River to the other bank.

15        Q.   So it's your evidence that Milan Lukic helps your father and

16     brother escape with their lives from (redacted), and yet they return,

17     collect their cattle, and walk them down what I believe you said was

18     about a half-hour walk to the banks of the Drina and then bring them

19     across the Drina on a boat?

20        A.   Yes.  They drove their cattle to the river, and then later on my

21     relatives, my cousins, helped them to transfer the cattle across the

22     river to the other bank.

23        Q.   Okay.  I want to change topics, and I want to put some of your

24     evidence to you from the 18th of December.  At transcript page 3988, you

25     were asked the following question by Mr. Ivetic:

Page 4053

 1             "Madam Witness, do you have any knowledge or information as to

 2     any pressure, threats or intimidation experienced by your brother, MLD2,

 3     who you know as," and I won't say the name," relating to his decision to

 4     become a witness to the Defence of Milan Lukic."

 5             And you answered:  "Yes, I do have knowledge of that, and I was

 6     told that we should not contact him over the phone at all because he's

 7     being harassed all the time.  He's receiving phone calls, and this is

 8     100 per cent the work of Vilic."

 9             My first question to you based on this excerpt from your

10     testimony, is how did you know this was happening to your brother if you

11     had not spoken to him for a year before that?

12        A.   I knew if I'm not talking to my brother, other members of the

13     family talked to him, and this is how I came to know about that from

14     them.

15        Q.   And you say:  "I was told that I should not contact him."

16             Who told you that you should not contact your brother, MLD2?

17        A.   All of those who knew that he had received threats told me -- I

18     heard from other members of the family that he had received threats and

19     that it would not be advisable for me to contact him.

20        Q.   Now, I want to put some of the assertions that Mr. Hamdija Vilic

21     has testified to.  He says that while he was waiting for the lawyers to

22     appear, you and your husband told him that he would be provided with

23     everything that he needed in life.  Do you admit that you said this to

24     him, or do you deny that you said this to him?

25        A.   This is not correct.  I surely did not say this to him because I

Page 4054

 1     couldn't provide such guarantees.  I could not do so, and I saw no reason

 2     for me to tell him anything like that.

 3        Q.   He further testified that while waiting, that you told him that

 4     you had taken 5.000 Euros to MLD2 which came from Milan Lukic as payment

 5     for him giving false testimony.  Do you admit this, or do you deny this?

 6        A.   That's a lie.

 7        Q.   He also says that when he was in your house, you received several

 8     calls.  Do you recall receiving telephone calls while he was present?

 9        A.   I don't believe so.  Nobody phoned me.  The telephone was in the

10     room where the Defence team members were.

11        Q.   He stated that he believed the phone calls were from Milan Lukic.

12     Did you speak with Milan Lukic any time on the day of the 22nd of June?

13        A.   I'm not sure whether this was the 22nd of June or some other date

14     because on the 22nd of June -- well, I don't know, but my statement was

15     not given and signed on the 22nd but on the 23rd, but I couldn't be sure,

16     and I wouldn't state it as a fact before checking, but I don't believe

17     that it was on that date.

18        Q.   On the day Hamdija Vilic was in your home, did Milan Lukic call

19     you and have a conversation with you?

20        A.   Yes.  No, he did not call on that day.  Defence team members had

21     called me and asked whether he was there, the Defence lawyers, I mean.

22        Q.   Defence lawyers called you and asked you who was there?

23        A.   They asked whether Hamdija had arrived, Hamdija Vilic, because I

24     had told them that he would be coming and that it was arranged for him to

25     come to my home.

Page 4055

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, can I ask that we go briefly into

 2     private session?

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Ma'am, can you tell us without mentioning their name, just tell

20     us their relationship to you, who in your family told you that you should

21     not call MLD2?

22        A.   Well, my foster mother told me that she didn't want this to be in

23     the public domain, that she had heard that threats were issued against

24     him, and that still threats are being issued against him and her, and

25     that Hamdija's brother is still maintaining that I had sued Vilic and

Page 4056

 1     that he wrote -- read on the internet that I sued Hamdija.

 2        Q.   Now, I want to move to a different topic.  At transcript 3974 on

 3     the 18th of December, Mr. Ivetic asked you:

 4             "And did in fact Mr. Hamdija Vilic on that occasion volunteer to

 5     be a witness for the Defence of Milan Lukic and meet with these members

 6     of the Defence team?"

 7             And you answered:  "Yes.  He asked to appear as a witness, but he

 8     didn't want to meet with them in Sarajevo but to meet with them at my

 9     place, and I accepted, although he was not a very close relative, and I

10     didn't really feel like receiving anyone in my house."

11             So my question to you is, is it Hamdija Vilic who contacted you

12     and first raised the possibility of him testifying for Milan Lukic?

13             MR. IVETIC:  If I can --

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Sorry.  If I can just ask for the transcript

16     reference to be checked.  I believe that she had said he was a close

17     relative -- sorry, I believe that the negative, at line 25, 27 is out of

18     place, but ... I have the uncorrected transcript in front of me, so I

19     can't be certain.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Are you saying the transcript actually says that

21     he was a close relative?  Is that your point?

22             MR. IVETIC:  That's my notes.  I cannot check in the transcript

23     that I have in front of me because I don't have the page numbers.

24             MR. GROOME:  It's on line number, Your Honour, I'm checking my

25     copy, and it's that, but Mr. Ivetic can check the LiveNote for himself.

Page 4057

 1     And the transcript reference is 3974.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And what does it say?

 3             MR. GROOME:  It says exactly what I said.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Proceed.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Ma'am, what I'm asking you is it Hamdija Vilic that first

 7     contacted you and first raised the possibility of being a witness for

 8     Milan Lukic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you ever -- is it not true that you were the one who asked

11     him whether he would be a witness for Milan Lukic?

12        A.   I asked him whether he want to be a witness, but he asked me,

13     when phoning me to make sure that it took place at my place and no place

14     else.  He phoned me on the eve of that day and in the morning on that day

15     that he would be leaving his house and whether he could come to my place.

16        Q.   So if I understand your last answer, you asked him if he wanted

17     to be a witness for Milan Lukic; then he asked you, could he meet them at

18     your house.  Is that your evidence?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   So Mr. Vilic is correct when he says that it is you that raised

21     the prospect of him testifying in the Milan Lukic case.  He's not wrong

22     about that?

23        A.   Well, the Defence team asked me to give them his telephone number

24     and asked me whether he would be testifying, and I told them I would be

25     calling him, and he agreed but provided that this took place at my place.

Page 4058

 1     He didn't want to meet them in Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Well, just today, a few moments ago you've told us that the only

 3     contact you had with the Defence was on the day that they came to your

 4     house.  When did they call you and who called and you asked you to make

 5     contact with Hamdija Vilic?

 6        A.   The same members of the Defence team, they called me earlier that

 7     they would be coming to my place and asked me to ask Hamdija whether he

 8     would be a witness.  They had planned for me to go to Sarajevo to meet

 9     them there and not to come to my place.

10        Q.   When did you receive that phone call?

11        A.   Two days before they arrived, maybe two days, before they arrived

12     to take my statement.

13        Q.   Who called you?  Mr. Rasic, Vladimir, or Mr. Lakcevic?

14        A.   Vladimir.

15        Q.   Did you have any other phone calls or phone contact with Vladimir

16     that perhaps you forgot to tell us about that you now remember?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'll object to the characterization of

18     this question.  He's now attempting to badger the witness.  His prior

19     question to the witness was had she met with other members of the Defence

20     team, I believe, is my recollection.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't see any objection to the question.

22     Please proceed.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Ma'am, have you had any other contact by whatever means with

25     other members of the Defence team that perhaps you recall now?

Page 4059

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   Now, you've testified about Hamdija Vilic making a demand for

 3     100.000 Euros of the two men that came to your home.  Did that happen

 4     shortly after he began his discussion with them?

 5        A.   This happened quickly.  First, I gave my statement; then he

 6     entered the room, but before the Defence team came, he told me over a cup

 7     of coffee that he would be seeking 100.000 Euro.  I told him, who would

 8     give you 100.000 Euro?  Are you crazy?  And he said, well, whether they

 9     want or they don't want to give me the money, who fucks them?  And that

10     is literally what he said.

11        Q.   And is it your evidence that he made that demand of them as soon

12     as he began to speak with them?

13        A.   Yes.  Because they finished the conversation immediately, maybe

14     five minutes, even less, spent together.  As soon as he entered the room,

15     he said that he demanded money, and then they gave up the idea of meeting

16     with him.  They said, well, we don't want to have dealings with him.

17        Q.   So they never really had any discussion with him about what

18     evidence he might give, according to you?

19        A.   Initially, he agreed to give a statement and had promised to give

20     a statement, but he demanded 100.000 Euro.  I don't know whether he did

21     actually give the statement, but as soon as they were asked for

22     100.000 Euro, they left, and they said, There's no point in having any

23     business with him.  I asked them whether they wanted my telephone number,

24     and they said, No, we have no intention of calling you, we don't need

25     your number, we have no intention of paying anybody 100.000 Euro, we

Page 4060

 1     don't want to give 1 Euro to anybody, let alone 100.000 Euro.

 2        Q.   At any time in your house did you observe Hamdija Vilic give a

 3     statement to the Defence counsel?

 4        A.   Well, he spoke with them.  I don't know whether they wrote down

 5     anything that he said.  I did not want to eavesdrop on their

 6     conversation.  We played some music, and I left that room for that

 7     purpose.  I wasn't in that room when he was giving his statement, and he

 8     wasn't in the room when I was giving my statement.

 9        Q.   But what you said is that his interaction with him was less than

10     five minutes.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Thereabouts.  I did not really measure how long they stayed

12     together, but he did not stay long.

13        Q.   The difficulty, MLD10, that I'm facing is that if Hamdija Vilic

14     is lying, and in fact this occurred the way you say it did, that he was

15     in there for a very short period of time, he makes his demand for money,

16     they end the conversation, if it happened that way, how is it that

17     Hamdija Vilic knows the details of the alibi defence that's been put

18     forward by Milan Lukic?  It happened in Kopito, the date, how many people

19     were killed.  It's not possible for him to have known that, is it?

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I anticipate Mr. Ivetic is going to

21     say that she can't explain how he would know that or not know it.

22             MR. GROOME:  I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

24             MR. GROOME:

25        Q.   You testified that Hamdija Vilic's family burnt to death in the

Page 4061

 1     family home in Prelovo.  Do you remember testifying to that?

 2        A.   I did make that statement.  I heard about that when I returned

 3     from Montenegro to Bosnia, that they would talk about Hamdija's house and

 4     about his family being burned down at Prelovo.  I did not know about that

 5     before it was broadcast on the SENSE agency, through the SENSE agency

 6     service.

 7        Q.   So you say your source of that information is the news agency

 8     known as SENSE?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if we can have the -- I don't know if

10     it's possible to get the audiotape brought back.  She said -- well, she

11     said differently.  There's a part that's not in the transcript.  I'm not

12     here to testify on -- to act as translator, so I don't think I ought to

13     translate the part that's not in the transcript.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I might ask her to repeat her

15     answer --

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Yes.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   There seems to be some dispute over what you actually said in

19     your last answer.  Could I ask you to repeat it, please.

20             Do you want me to repeat my question to you?

21        A.   As I said, I don't know where his family got burnt down, whether

22     in Prelovo or at some other place, before I saw on the SENSE service that

23     he would be coming here to testify and to publicise those accusations

24     here in The Hague.

25        Q.   So today you're not sure whether -- you're not sure that his

Page 4062

 1     family burnt to death in Prelovo.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   My information comes from the people.  I don't know.  I may not

 3     be qualified to judge where his family came to grieve, but I'd heard from

 4     other people that his house in Prelovo had been burned down and that his

 5     family had been burnt alive there.  I know no more than that.  I'm only

 6     telling you what I've heard.  It's what people were saying, what people

 7     were telling each other, but I can say for sure that his family was

 8     burned alive.

 9        Q.   In response to a question from Mr. Ivetic, you testified that

10     Hamdija Vilic was a commander of a unit in the Bosnian Muslim army.

11     That's at Transcript 3971 to 72.  What rank did he hold as a commander?

12     Do you know?

13        A.   I really can't say.  I do know that he held a rank, but I don't

14     know which one.

15        Q.   Do you know the name of his unit?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, that lacks foundation, and it also

17     assumes that all units have names.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well ... do you know the name of his unit,

19     Witness?  Yes, I'm asking the question.  Do you know the name of his

20     unit, Witness?

21             I'm asking you a question.  Do you know the name of his unit?

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, you need to turn off your mike before

23     she answers.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.  I just know that he

25     was with the Bosnia army, but I don't know the name of his unit.  I also

Page 4063

 1     know there were many different units in the Bosnian army.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Now, ma'am, just my last few questions to you.  Your involvement

 4     in this case, did the Defence contact you, or did you contact the

 5     Defence?

 6        A.   The Defence contacted me.

 7        Q.   Now, you've been put forward as a character witness, and you've

 8     given some very good character evidence or evidence of good character

 9     about Mr. Milan Lukic.  You never came forward with that evidence to

10     Mr. Sulacic, his prior attorney, did you?

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I object.  If he's going to ask this,

13     he's going to ask who for the Defence contacted her.  He's skipping out a

14     whole bunch of steps, and I think it's improper to ask a witness to take

15     on an duty or obligation that they don't have.  It's presenting a false

16     picture to this Tribunal, and I've been sitting here listening to

17     Mr. Groome, and thus far he's done better than with some other witnesses

18     but I believe that this is the type of question that is inappropriate.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You haven't satisfied me that it is

20     inappropriate, Mr. Ivetic, I regret to say.  Please proceed.

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   Ma'am, do you have some explanation as to why it took you 16

23     years to come forward with evidence of alibi that would exonerate

24     Mr. Lukic for two very serious crimes and such important character

25     evidence?  Is there any explanation you have as to why it's taken so

Page 4064

 1     long?

 2        A.   It's not that I took a long time to do that.  As soon as I was

 3     contacted to appear as a witness, I responded.  The way I see it, it

 4     didn't really take me that long.  Even if it had been a hundred years, I

 5     would still have responded.  I only had one father.  That's what I said

 6     the last time around.  I lost my mother too.  I don't even remember her,

 7     and I can never forget a single good thing that anyone did to me, not

 8     even Milan Lukic's, and if this was about any other person and not Milan

 9     Lukic, my testimony, my evidence would still be the same.

10        Q.   Over the course of the break, did you have any conversation with

11     anyone about your testimony in this case?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Ma'am, I must put it to you plainly that it is my position that

14     you've only come forward at this stage because you have been paid to

15     provide this evidence that you've given in this case.  Do you understand

16     what I'm putting to you?

17             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, I think that she's --

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I think that she's answered this time and time again

20     when Mr. Groome has asked her, and she's denied it each time, so what is

21     the point of Mr. Groome putting this exact same question back to the

22     witness multiple times?

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's a practice in many jurisdictions to

24     conclude by putting to the witness that the witness is fabricating, and I

25     think it is perfectly proper to conclude a cross-examination in this way.

Page 4065

 1             What do you say to the question put to you, Witness?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only state with full

 3     responsibility that everything Hamdija said about me was a fabrication.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)  Please.  What Hamdija said is totally

 8     pointless.  The only point to his allegations is he can't stand me as a

 9     person, not just me, this applies to other members of my family, too

10     because I live with a man who is a Catholic.  If that bothers him so

11     much, he might as well go and hang himself instead of coming up with all

12     these fabrications against me.  All of this is something that has been

13     staged against me.  Why and be whom exactly, I don't know.  My apologies.

14             Before he came when he saw me wearing shorts, because that's what

15     I was wearing back home, he said that he would set fire to any woman who

16     is not keeping warm.  I have a right to live my life the way I see fit.

17     I can live with a Catholic man, with a Serb, with whoever I like, but

18     this is the most important thing that bothers everyone, including my

19     family as well.

20             MR. IVETIC:  If I can -- at page 34, line 1, somewhere between

21     there and line 2, although it doesn't appear in the transcript, the

22     witness mentioned her name.  Therefore, we need to have a redaction from

23     the audio-video portion of the proceedings.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that will be done.

25             MR. GROOME:

Page 4066

 1        Q.   Ma'am, is it your evidence that Hamdija Vilic is doing -- has

 2     done what he's done because he disapproves of your lifestyle and that you

 3     live with a Catholic man?  Is that really your belief?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's my personal conviction, and I'm certain because

 5     there can't be any other reasons for him to act this way towards me.

 6     Maybe he should have found someone who would defend him in a different

 7     place and then, you know, pay 500.000 and not just this.  And not, you

 8     know, like pin things such as these on my husband and me and slander our

 9     home.  You know, this is simply unheard of.  I've never heard of anything

10     like this happening anywhere.

11        Q.   And finally --

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Has he ever said anything to you, Witness?  Has

13     he ever said anything to you to indicate that he disapproves of your

14     living with a Catholic man?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did say that in public.  He

16     said he didn't agree with me living with a Catholic.  He showed me this

17     photograph on his mobile phone, his brother, the daughter.  They were

18     wearing veils - I'm not sure what I should call that - to cover their

19     faces, and I know and I'm saying to you now, morally and materially, that

20     he is an enormous nationalist, and this has nothing to do with this trial

21     in itself.  He and his brothers are nationalists, very fervent ones.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, that's interesting.  And you think that

23     his nationalism, his nationalistic fervor explains why he gave this

24     testimony?  Could you explain that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's the reason.  That was

Page 4067

 1     the only reason that he came to my home and asked to see my family.  This

 2     is all something that he staged and fabricated.  He want to slander our

 3     house.  He wanted to slander my family.  I say this with full

 4     responsibility.  If it is ever proven that I took any money at all, any

 5     money at all, a single Euro let alone more than that, I should be sent to

 6     prison.  But I also ask that Hamdija's lies finally be put an end to.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Finally, MLD10, during your evidence on the 18th of December, you

10     unexpectedly testified to events of St. Vitus day, 1992, that we were

11     told your brother MLD2 was scheduled to testify about.  I have already

12     put it to you that the real reason you no longer speak to your brother is

13     that he is angry with you for not giving him all the money you received

14     from Milan Lukic to secure his testimony.  I now put to you the

15     following:  I put it to you that you unexpectedly volunteered MLD2's

16     evidence during your testimony as a way of giving Milan Lukic what he has

17     already paid for, an alibi for the 27th of June.  Is that not the truth?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, again, this is the 10th, 15th time

19     we've had it today.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Those are his instructions.  I allowed you to

21     put your case.  He's putting his case.  Those are his instructions.  He's

22     obliged to put it.  Yes.

23             MR. IVETIC:  But, Your Honour, when we had Prosecution witnesses

24     here, time and time again we were not allowed to ask things and repeat

25     things.  We were told to move along.  We had very serious allegations --

Page 4068

 1             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I never stopped you in cross-examination by

 2     concluding cross-examination by suggesting that a witness is fabricating,

 3     by putting your case, and this is what he's doing.  Let the witness

 4     answer the question.

 5             MR. GROOME:

 6        Q.   Please answer the question.

 7        A.   I can state with full responsibility that I received no money at

 8     all.  My relationship with my brother, my family, all this has nothing to

 9     do with Milan Lukic, his evidence.  Why am I not speaking to my brother?

10     Nothing to do with that.  I don't get along with my brother because he

11     spends time with people such as Hamdija.  There was another neighbor.

12     His name is Enes.  He offended me.  He called me an Ustasha slut.  He

13     went that far, and this is a quote.  He took my brother's phone to call

14     my home:  Hello, gentlemen, I have a husband, I can't allow myself to

15     talk to people like that, and my husband wouldn't let me go and see my

16     brother and act like that.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, MLD10.  I have no further questions.

18             Your Honour, I would ask -- I've been working with the statement

19     of MLD10.  I'd like to tender it into evidence at this time.  I'll get

20     the Defence number in a minute.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, re-examination?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement is admitted as P215, Your Honours.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Thank you, MLD10 for coming back to us to testify.  I have just a

Page 4069

 1     few items to discuss with you relating to the cross-examination of

 2     Mr. Groome, and I bear your indulgence in answering those questions, and

 3     then I'll be finished with you, ma'am.

 4             First of all, the page that I have - and I'm told that my page

 5     numbers are different from the ones that are in the transcript - is page

 6     4017.  I'm told that ought to be 4017 of the transcript at lines 3

 7     through 7 -- 3 through, actually, 11.  Mr. Groome was asking you about

 8     how things changed in your home, that is to say with respect to certain

 9     intimidating phone calls that you were receiving, how things changed when

10     you installed a cordless telephone respective to a prior telephone.

11     Could you please tell us, what is the physical or technological

12     difference between the telephone, the cordless telephone that you

13     installed after which the phone calls abated and the prior telephone that

14     you had had?

15        A.   Well, the difference is like this.  Now a number is shown.  I

16     know who the caller is, and there are no more disturbing calls.

17     Sometimes it would happen that I got the heavy-breather calls, or people

18     who would call me and just whistle across the line.  It wasn't that I

19     needed a cordless phone, but I wanted a number displayed.  I wanted to

20     know who the caller was.  That's why I got one.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. IVETIC:  And for the next series of questions, Your Honours,

23     I'd ask to go into private session so as to protect the identity of this

24     witness.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

Page 4070

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4071

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Madam Witness, I have no further questions for you.  On behalf of

13     the entire against team of Milan Lukic, I thank you most fervently for

14     coming here to testify not once but twice, and we thank you for indulging

15     us with your testimony and enduring those hard-ships to come here and

16     testify.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, that concludes your testimony.  We

18     thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You may now leave.

19             And we will adjourn.  We'll take the break now.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  At the outset of this afternoon's proceedings, I

Page 4072

 1     ought to have indicated that in the absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert,

 2     Judge David and I sit pursuant to rule 15 bis.

 3             The witness is here.  Let him make the declaration, unless

 4     Mr. Ivetic has something to say.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I was advised that we probably ought

 6     to seek private session while the court is still considering this

 7     witness's application for protective matters.  That's what that I would

 8     bring to Your Honours's attention as we are in open session at present.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Cole.

10             MR. COLE:  Yes, Your Honour, I have two short matters if I could

11     raise them with you.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

13             MR. COLE:  I'd like to point out, Your Honour, that the

14     Prosecution has not been provided with a written statement for this

15     witness at the present time.  We have only a brief summary, and you'll be

16     aware, Your Honour, that this witness is a late-notified alibi witness.

17             Mr. Ivetic has no doubt prepared his examination-in-chief

18     carefully for this witness.  I would now ask that Mr. Ivetic provide the

19     Prosecution with a copy of all this witness's written statements at once

20     and prior to his testifying.  If it's the case that Mr. Ivetic is calling

21     such an important witness without a written statement having been taken,

22     I ask that Mr. Ivetic state for the record that no such written statement

23     has been taken from the witness and that no such statement is in

24     existence.  That's the first matter.

25             And secondly, Your Honour, I would ask that there be no leading

Page 4073

 1     questions of this witness, and in particular, no leading questions as to

 2     date, him being an alibi star witness.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, the second matter I take for

 4     granted.  Leading questions are not allowed except in relation to the

 5     very introductory matters.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Agreed, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Certainly not in relation to controversial

 8     issues.

 9             The Chamber counsel.

10                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Now, as to the first matter raised by Mr. Cole,

12     Mr. Ivetic, again, I reiterate, if you have any written statements

13     pertaining to this witness, then the rules oblige you to disclose them to

14     the Prosecution.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And again, I apologise, I don't know if Mr. Cole

16     husband here when I made my comments earlier in the afternoon or not,

17     this witness has never given a written statement to the Milan Lukic

18     Defence team.  I thus have no written statement to give for this

19     viva voce witness.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  That's enough.  Mr. Cole, as I

21     indicated, to deal with the late notification in relation to this

22     witness, we will hear the evidence-in-chief today, and at a later date we

23     will notify the parties when cross-examination will take place.  Yes,

24     Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I don't know how you wish to deal with

Page 4074

 1     the protective measures issues.  You said you want the witness to --

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Yes.  Witness, please listen to me.

 3             Let us go into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4075











11  Pages 4075-4084 redacted. Private session.















Page 4085

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD15

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may sit, and you may begin, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, you know, my name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the

24     attorneys for the accused Milan Lukic.  I would -- first, I'll give the

25     court reporter [sic] a chance to get back to her seat.

Page 4086

 1             The pseudonym sheet is there.  I would first ask you to take a

 2     look at the pseudonym sheet, that with the assistance of the court

 3     officer, we be put in front of you, and without revealing your identity

 4     or that of any other persons contained therein, I would ask that you

 5     verify first your identity listed under the pseudonym of MLD15 and that

 6     the aforementioned contained therein is correct and accurate.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And with regard to the individual that is listed as

 9     MLD16 on this sheet, I would ask that you also, while refraining from

10     using that person's actual name when testifying and instead utilize the

11     pseudonym listed.  Is that understood?

12        A.   Okay.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And with -- let me try and short-circuit some of

14     these questions that I had anticipated doing in private session.  I think

15     if we avoid -- if we refrain from people's full names and deal with the

16     pseudonyms, we can deal with some of these in open session.  I apologize.

17     If you could please sign that document.

18             MR. IVETIC:  And once that is done, Your Honours, I would ask

19     that tender this pseudonym sheet into evidence as the next available

20     1D Exhibit.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It is admitted as Exhibit 1D96 under seal, Your

23     Honours.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   And moving along, with regards to MLD16, the person that's

Page 4087

 1     identified as MLD16, can you tell us how it is that you know this person

 2     and how long you have known this person, again, without identifying the

 3     name or any biographical features that might identify this person.

 4        A.   I know that girlfriend for a long time.  I socialized with her.

 5     I practically grew up with her.

 6        Q.   And first if I can ask you, if I could direct your attention to

 7     Mr. Milan Lukic, who is seated here behind me to my right, do you know

 8     this individual?  First of all, is the question that I'm going to ask

 9     you.

10        A.   Yes, I do know him.

11             MR. IVETIC:  And now, Your Honours, before going into the

12     specifics of how this individual knows Mr. Lukic, I'd ask to go into

13     private session briefly to cover that.  I've eliminated most of the other

14     private session questions.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4088











11  Page 4088 redacted. Private session.















Page 4089

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, did you have occasion to socialise with

10     Milan Lukic in Belgrade at all, and if so, could you describe the extent

11     of that social relationship.

12        A.   I had occasion to meet him in Belgrade several times.  I was

13     commuting between Switzerland and Belgrade.  I still live in Switzerland.

14     And at that time, we made an agreement to get together whenever possible.

15     The nature of our relationship was great, super, as it were.

16        Q.   During the occasions when you had socialized with Mr. Milan Lukic

17     in Belgrade, was there any specific location or establishment which you

18     would frequent when seeing one another?

19        A.   At the time, we frequented restaurant Mata [phoen] next to the

20     Zemun market-place.  This was an in place for the young people to hang

21     out in.

22        Q.   And if you could please explain for us what type of social

23     interactions did you have with Milan Lukic?  What kind of things did you

24     talk about or participate in?

25        A.   There were occasions when he would contact me, and since at that

Page 4090

 1     night I had been preparing a surprise party for my then-girlfriend, I had

 2     intention to present an engagement ring to her, I invited him to attend

 3     that party, and this was one of such occasions when we would meet.

 4        Q.   You mentioned the surprise party.  We'll get to that in a second.

 5     What I was asking about was, in total, in general, what types of social

 6     interactions or activities did you engage in with Mr. Lukic in all of the

 7     times that you socialised with him while in Belgrade?

 8        A.   Our get-togethers would boil down to sports, small talk.

 9        Q.   And with respect --

10        A.   Entertainment, sports, girls.

11        Q.   And sir, with respect to your socialising with Mr. Lukic, do you

12     have any approximation as to how many times or how frequently you had

13     socialised with him in Belgrade in this capacity?

14        A.   Well, not frequently but on several occasions, on a number of

15     occasions.

16        Q.   And in the course of your social dealings with Mr. Milan Lukic,

17     did you have occasion to get to know him enough to reach an opinion as to

18     the type of person he was, and if so, what was your appraisal of him in

19     this regard?

20        A.   He's a very cheerful person, ready to help another, always ready

21     to have fun, likes to laugh and smile a lot.

22        Q.   And how would you describe Mr. Milan Lukic's interactions or

23     relations with and treatment of persons of differing ethnic or religious

24     backgrounds from his own during the time period that you knew and

25     socialised with him?

Page 4091

 1        A.   At that period, we had no reason to talk about ethnic

 2     affiliation, religious affiliation, about who was from where.

 3        Q.   And you mentioned earlier that you had occasion of some sort of

 4     surprise party.  If we can focus on that for a moment, could you tell us

 5     what surprise party you're talking about and when it occurred.

 6        A.   The surprise party for my then-girlfriend and future fiancée took

 7     place on the 7th of June, 1992.

 8        Q.   And when you say the surprise party for your then-girlfriend and

 9     future fiancée, what was the purpose of that surprise party on the 7th of

10     June, 1992?

11        A.   For the reason to make her like me even more.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... plans for that evening in

13     relation to yourself and your then-girlfriend?

14        A.   Of course.

15        Q.   In regard to your relationship between yourself and your

16     then-girlfriend, what was the significance of that surprise party that

17     you mentioned?

18        A.   It were to be a sit-down dinner, some drinks, and as a gathering

19     of people we liked.

20        Q.   And did you have any special plans with regard to anything that

21     you were going to do that evening with respect to your then-girlfriend,

22     any significant event?

23        A.   Yes.  I planned to give her an engagement ring, among other

24     things.

25        Q.   And now, where was this surprise party to take place, what city,

Page 4092

 1     first of all?

 2        A.   At Zemun, part of Belgrade.

 3        Q.   And was there a particular location in Zemun, that part of

 4     Belgrade, that this surprise party was to take place in?

 5        A.   Then restaurant Mata or cafe, Mata, next door to the Zemun

 6     marketplace.

 7        Q.   Again, I apologize.  Just waiting for the translation and

 8     transcript.  Was there a stated time for this surprise party to -- that

 9     it was supposed to take place?

10        A.   In the evening hours, between, let's say, 8 and 12 p.m.

11        Q.   And -- and you indicated that you had some contact with

12     Milan Lukic in regards to this.  Could you explain the nature of the

13     contact that you had with Milan Lukic in regards to this particular event

14     that you've described, the surprise party at the restaurant Mata on the

15     7th of June, 1992.

16        A.   Yes.  I was at home that day, and during that day I received a

17     phone call from Milan to my home number, and he said that he was in

18     Belgrade, and I took this opportunity to invite him to come to the party

19     later in the evening.

20        Q.   First of all, were there -- was he to be the only guest, or were

21     there other guests that were -- that had been invited for that event, the

22     surprise party?

23        A.   Yes.  There were other guests invited.  Among others, the MLD16.

24        Q.   Do you recall if in his contact with you Mr. Lukic advised the

25     circumstances behind his being in Belgrade during that time period?

Page 4093

 1        A.   It seemed to me that he had arrived to take his mother for a

 2     physical exam at a hospital with some other friends.

 3        Q.   You mentioned that other persons had been present for that event.

 4     I'd like to go into private session to see if we can identify some of

 5     those.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21        Q.   Now, sir, if you could tell us, do you recall whether Mr. Lukic

22     arrived for this party early -- or what time did he arrive for this

23     party?

24        A.   The party had already begun, and then MLD was already there.  I

25     remember this because when Milan walked in, she had apparently had a

Page 4094

 1     quarrel with him at some point previously, so she stood up and left, and

 2     then I drove her home.

 3        Q.   Now, if we can dilate on that a little bit, focus on that.  When

 4     you say she stood up and left, was that an expected reaction?  How did

 5     you react to that?

 6        A.   It was really surprising.  I hadn't seen it coming myself.  That

 7     much is certain.  That's why the encounter sticks in my memory, and I

 8     ended up driving her home.

 9        Q.   And you say you ended up driving her home.  First of all, when

10     did you drive her home?  That is to say, did you remain with your

11     then-girlfriend at the party, or did you leave with MLD16?

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honours, at line 22 of this page, I believe

15     we have the name of his then-girlfriend, to be fiancée.  If we can have

16     that redacted for -- in line with the protective measures.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you have occasion to speak with MLD16, and what

20     was your reaction to what had transpired while driving MLD16 home?

21        A.   My reaction was that of surprise, but it's not like I had time to

22     react because she was the one who kept talking to me all the time.  She

23     has an energetic character.

24        Q.   How would you describe your -- strike that.  Did the reactions of

25     MLD16 to Mr. Lukic's arrival at your surprise party, did they have an

Page 4095

 1     effect on your relationship or your disposition towards MLD16?

 2        A.   No.  There was no negativity involved.  Quite the contrary, in

 3     fact.

 4        Q.   Did you have occasion to -- strike that.  When you took MLD16

 5     home, you said you came back to the party, when is the next time that you

 6     saw Mr. Milan Lukic after that?

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   And when you say "... two days later there was a different cafe,"

10     what do you mean?  What transpired two days later at a different cafe?

11        A.   We were in the poolroom at Miet [phoen] in Saradusana [phoen]

12     Street, and we played pool there.

13        Q.   When you say "we," to which individuals are you referring to?

14     Who is the "we" in your response?

15        A.   Milan and I.

16        Q.   And when you say Milan -- could you please give his full name so

17     we have -- so there's no confusion, the full name of the Milan with whom

18     you were playing billiards at the --

19        A.   Milan Lukic and I.

20        Q.   And while you're playing billiards with Milan Lukic two days

21     after the 7th of June, 1992, first of all, where is that

22     Saradusana Street located, what city?

23        A.   Zemun.  This restaurant or poolroom is right next to my former

24     flat, a flat in which I had been born and grown up.

25        Q.   And with respect to playing the billiards with Milan Lukic that

Page 4096

 1     day, what, if anything, transpired apart from the billiards?

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Page 64, line 11, again, Your Honours, if we can

 7     have the first name of his late wife redacted.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Sir, if I could just assist in terms of your testimony.  When

11     referring to your late wife, if we could refer to her without her name.

12     That way we can avoid having your identity perhaps revealed to persons

13     who might be able to garner from her name your identity.

14             Now, with respect -- sorry.  And with respect to your

15     conversation with your then-girlfriend, fiancee, what transpired in the

16     course of that telephonic conversation wherein she stated that MLD16 was

17     present at your home?

18        A.   Following that conversation, I know that she and Milan and she

19     made it up.  I told her where I was and who I was with, so she came over.

20     I know that they made it up that same day.

21        Q.   Okay.  And with respect to -- with respect to Milan Lukic, did

22     you have occasion to meet with him at any point in time after that

23     occasion on the 9th of June -- did you have any other time after that

24     occasion in the billiard hall in Zemun?

25        A.   No, not after that.

Page 4097

 1        Q.   Okay.  One moment.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Those are all the questions that I have

 5     prepared for you today.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm finished with the direct, and

 7     unless Your Honours have questions, I presume we'll be moving on to the

 8     next witness.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's quite so because as I indicated, the

10     Chamber has decided to defer the cross-examination of this witness for

11     the reasons already stated.

12             Witness, you are going to be excused from court now, and you'll

13     be told when to return.  You may leave.  Before you leave, I should tell

14     you that you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody.  Do you

15     understand?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You may leave.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Next witness, Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  The next witness, Your Honours, is MLD3 who had

22     previously been granted protective measures pursuant to the -- one

23     moment.  Who had been previously granted protective measures by Your

24     Honours.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness,

Page 4098

 1     may I inquire whether the statement -- oh, I'm sorry.  We have the

 2     statement for this.  I withdraw it.  My apologies.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  GORAN DJERIC

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, I have been told that the witness

12     has declined protective measures.

13             MR. IVETIC:  That was going to be my first question.  He had

14     mentioned this this morning to me in proofing that he wished to testify

15     in open court, and I was going ask him if he still stood by that decision

16     and then ...

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, you wish to testify in open court,

18     publicly?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very well.  Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  As far as there is one other individual that has

22     been previously granted protective measures that this testimony might

23     touch, I would still proceed with the pseudonym sheet with regards to

24     identifying that particular person.  Yeah.  Let's wait for that.

25             I guess, Your Honours, to make efficient use of the time, I would

Page 4099

 1     ask the witness to identify himself for the record by stating his full

 2     name while we wait for the pseudonym sheet.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goran Djeric.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Djeric, where do you currently reside, in what city?

 6        A.   Obrenovac, Zabrizido Stevo [phoen], number 4.

 7        Q.   And I'm going to ask the court usher's assistance in showing you

 8     the pseudonym sheet for purposes of directing your attention to the last

 9     half of the pseudonym sheet where you see an individual that is

10     identified there as MLD4.  I would ask that in your testimony today, to

11     the extent that you need to refer to this individual, that you would use

12     the pseudonym MLD4 rather than his full name.  Is that understood and

13     agreeable?

14        A.   I understand, and I agree.

15                 MR. IVETIC:  And for purposes of memorializing this, Your

16     Honours, I would ask for the witness to sign or initial if pseudonym

17     sheet, and then I would tender the same under seal for purposes of

18     protecting the identity of MLD4 as the next available 1D exhibit.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit is admitted as 1D97 under seal, Your

21     Honours.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Djeric, if you could please tell us what your employment was

24     prior to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and -- let's start with that.

25        A.   I was working as an economist at Zitomlin in Belgrade and

Page 4100

 1     Silos Breska [phoen] in Obrenovac.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I apologize for the delay.  I'm waiting for the

 3     transcript and the translation to catch up with you.  And could you tell

 4     us, where did you live in 1992?

 5        A.   Obrenovac, the address provided a minute ago.  I still live

 6     there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And could you tell us the date and location, the

 8     locale where you were born?

 9        A.   15th of June, 1960, Godormelje [phoen], Rogatica municipality.

10        Q.   And where -- for those of us unfamiliar with the Balkan

11     geography, where is Rogatica municipality located within the former

12     Yugoslavia?

13        A.   Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   And in relation to -- what are the surrounding municipalities

15     around Rogatica?

16        A.   Visegrad, Gorazde, Sokolac, Zepa.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Again, just waiting for the transcript.

18             Now I would like to move along to Milan Lukic.  Did you have

19     occasion at any time to become acquainted with Mr. Milan Lukic, the

20     gentleman who is seated behind me to my right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Could you please detail for us, sir, the events surrounding your

23     becoming acquainted with Mr. Milan Lukic?

24        A.   I first set eyes on Milan Lukic in Obrenovac, sometime late 1991

25     or the beginning of 1992, the period of time between Christmas and New

Page 4101

 1     Year's Eve.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe -- I believe, Your Honours,

 3     that the -- well --

 4        Q.   You indicated between the time between Christmas and New Year's

 5     Eve, which Christmas and which New Year's Eve since there are multiple

 6     such holidays celebrated in the Balkans?

 7        A.   The New Year's Day, the 31st of December, 1991, and the Christmas

 8     on the 7th, so I saw him, I think, sometime on or about the 4th, possibly

 9     the 3rd.  I can't be certain.  The 3rd or the 4th, 1992, January.

10        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that for us, sir.  And with respect to

11     meeting him in Obrenovac, how did you have occasion to acquaint yourself

12     with Mr. Milan Lukic on that occasion?

13        A.   I met him outside the municipality building.  There is a square

14     in Obrenovac where the municipality building is.  He was with his

15     relative who I knew well, and we socialised.  The name is Bozo Ivanovic

16     [phoen].  He's from Obrenovac.  I came by.  We exchanged greetings.  He

17     said, this is a relative of mine Milan Lukic from Visegrad.  He said he

18     was living abroad and working abroad somewhere or other.  I really don't

19     know, and he said, let's go and have a drink together.

20             So we walked over to the hotel in Obrenovac.  We shared a drink.

21     Then we talked for at least about 45 minutes, possibly up to an hour,

22     just chatting away like that.

23        Q.   Who else was in your company on that occasion?

24        A.   I, Milan Lukic, and Bozo Ivanovic.

25        Q.   And -- I apologize, the transcript again.  And as someone from

Page 4102

 1     Obrenovac, could you perhaps clarify something for us.  Are you -- in

 2     1992 and the years leading up to 1992, was there any college, academy, or

 3     faculty of the Serbian MUP, that is the Serbian police, located in

 4     Obrenovac?

 5        A.   No.  No school at all, no academy, nothing.  There was never

 6     anything like that in Obrenovac, not before, not then, not now.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And with respect to Milan Lukic, based upon your

 8     knowledge and information, did he ever reside in Obrenovac?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the time

11     period when the war broke out in the republic -- the Yugoslav Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Did you have occasion to take part in the -- in the

13     war as a member of the armed forces of any of the sides in that conflict?

14        A.   Yes.  I was a member of the Army of Republika Srpska, the army

15     and then the Army of Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   And with respect to your membership in the Army of the Republika

17     Srpska and in your fulfillment of your duties as a soldier of the Army of

18     Republika Srpska, where were you stationed during the course of the

19     fighting in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   At Borike, Rogatica municipality.

21        Q.   And could you tell us, what specific army unit or formation was

22     present at Borike in Rogatica municipality?

23        A.   The Rogatica Brigade.  There was a company, actually battalion,

24     stationed at Borike, but the entire brigade was the Rogatica Brigade.

25        Q.   And where was the command of that brigade located?

Page 4103

 1        A.   Rogatica.  There was a squad -- the battalion command, that was

 2     at Borike.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And with respect to the conflict in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you have occasion to encounter Mr. Milan Lukic

 5     during that conflict on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in regard

 6     to any specific incidents, and if so, if you could please enunciate for

 7     us the same.

 8        A.   Yes, I did have occasion to encounter Milan Lukic.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us about any or the main such encounter that

10     stands out in your mind with Milan Lukic during the course of the --

11     during the course of your engagement within the Army of the Republika

12     Srpska?

13        A.   I met Milan Lukic on the 14th of June, 1992, at Kopito, which is

14     above Visegrad in the direction of Borike.  It's a location.

15        Q.   Now, again, for those of us that are less than familiar with the

16     geography of the region, could you explain for us where Kopito is located

17     and its significance in regards to any communication or travel routes.

18        A.   This road was the only road from Rogatica to Serbia, through

19     Borike.  That was the only road.  There was no other road.  All the other

20     roads in that region were BH Army-controlled.  If you head out of

21     Visegrad towards Sjemec, there's the road there and then on to

22     Borike.  The first place you come across is Donja Lijeske, and then

23     3 kilometers down the road or so, Donja Lijeske.  And then 10 kilometers

24     further down the road or so, I think at attitude is quite high, nearly a

25     thousand metres between Visegrad and Borike, it's all curves and bends in

Page 4104

 1     the road, woodlands.  And then 10 kilometers further up from there is

 2     Kopito.  From Kopito, you take the road through Semic until you get to

 3     Borike.  First comes Brankovici and then Borike.  This road was the road

 4     that we used and that our forcers used to get food supplies, fuel, and

 5     other necessities across to our location there, but why is the road so

 6     important?  This was also used to shuffle between Gorazde and Zepa, the

 7     same road, and the Muslim forces were also using the road.  That's why

 8     there were frequent skirmishes and clashes along that road.

 9        Q.   And you -- strike that.  You said there were frequent skirmishes

10     and clashes along that road.  How long did those skirmishes last in

11     relation to the duration of the war?  Were they confined to a particular

12     time period during the war or otherwise?  Could you please enumerate on

13     that?

14        A.   From the end of May until the end of June, there were frequent

15     clashes.  An incident would happen, and then nothing for three or four

16     days.  The road would be blocked, and then the blockade would be raised.

17     One forces would come and chase away the other forces.  Then a couple of

18     days would pass, and then one side would hold that communication, and

19     then the other side would come and take over the control, and so it went.

20     In June alone, in June 1992 alone, more than 20 Serb soldiers were --

21     became casualties because of ambushes along that road.

22        Q.   Now, you indicated earlier that you met Milan Lukic at Kopito on

23     the 14th of June, 1992.  Could you please give us the details pertaining

24     to your encounter with Milan Lukic.  How did you come to be at Kopito on

25     the 14th of June, 1992?

Page 4105

 1        A.   I was supposed to go to Obrenovac on the 14th of June that year

 2     because the 15th of June is my birthday.  I was supposed to go home.  I

 3     have three children now.  I used to have two children then, so I was

 4     supposed to go on home leave for my birthday.  But on that morning of the

 5     14th, the commander called me and told me that one of the commanders had

 6     been killed, Vlatko Tripkovic, and he told me that the road was blocked

 7     and that we had no communication.  And that was sent as a message from

 8     Visegrad, and I was supposed to go down that road to relay that message

 9     to the Visegrad soldiers who were at Kopito to Perica Markovic.  He was

10     the intended recipient, and to tell him what had happened on the road to

11     Visegrad.

12        Q.   And sir, with respect to that, you say you were told in the

13     command, who in particular told you or gave you that instruction, if you

14     recall, to go to Kopito to advise the Serb forces there of what had

15     transpired to the commander?

16        A.   Commander Rajko Kusic, Brigade commander Rajko Kusic.

17        Q.   And did you in fact set out for Kopito, and if so, did you go

18     alone or were you accompanied by any individuals?

19        A.   No.  It had been planned for me to leave, and everything had been

20     prepared.  A vehicle had been prepared, and Prelic Novak, a soldier, was

21     to accompany me on that road, and then we went to Kopito on that morning.

22        Q.   And could you describe for me what, if anything, transpired on

23     the way to Kopito?  Was it an uneventful trip, or did any kind of

24     hostilities transpire in the course of that transport?

25        A.   En route to Kopito, there was a problem at one house.  Two killed

Page 4106

 1     Serbs were being extracted from that.  I remember that one was -- had the

 2     same family name as me, Djeric.  They had been killed there two days

 3     previously and could not be collected, and that was the activity that was

 4     going on while we were passing that place.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm going to take the break now.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I apologize.  Thank you.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I'd like to return to the instant we were talking

12     about when you were describing your travel to Kopito, and I wanted to

13     clarify with you, did your vehicle come under attack that day or during

14     that time period, or was it at some later point in time that your vehicle

15     came under attack and that on that route that you had described?

16        A.   My vehicle was not attacked on that route, but it was on the 27th

17     of June, and I'm going to talk about that later.

18        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that with me, and now if we could focus

19     the time period, that is to say, when you said you had gone on the

20     instructions of the commander of Rogatica to Kopito to relay the

21     information to Perica Markovic about the death of the commander.  First

22     of all, did you know Perica Markovic, and -- did you know Perica

23     Markovic?

24        A.   I did not know Perica Markovic, but I was told that he was a

25     commander there and that I should address him.  I did not know him then,

Page 4107

 1     but I can tell you later on when we were together and when I again saw

 2     him.

 3        Q.   If we can back up a bit, you said that you had traveled there

 4     with a soldier in the vehicle.  I forget if you had identified that

 5     soldier.  Do you recall the identity of that soldier that traveled with

 6     you to Kopito on the 14th of June, 1992?

 7        A.   Novak Prelic, Private Novak Prelic was with me.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And could you explain for us precisely, what was the

 9     information that was to be relayed to Perica Markovic at Kopito that your

10     command had sent you to relay?

11        A.   The commander tasked me with relaying to Perica Markovic that

12     Vlatko Tripkovic had been ambushed close to a repeater at Gornja Lijeske.

13     At a hair-pin bend that two other soldiers were killed.  One of them was

14     Savic [phoen].  The other's name was -- I did not know, but there was

15     this killing, and then I was supposed to tell the unit who were working

16     to extract the bodies of those two Serb soldiers to wait further

17     instructions until the road was again cleared.

18        Q.   And did you have any further instructions for them as to when it

19     could be expected that the roadway was going to be cleared again?

20        A.   I was told that an action was to be started from Visegrad on the

21     15th and that an action should start from Kopito to clear the

22     15 kilometers of road between Visegrad and Gornja Lijeske, and the

23     message was that the action was to start on the 15th in the morning.

24        Q.   And with respect to this information, why could it not be relayed

25     by other means such as radio communications to the Serb forces that were

Page 4108

 1     blockaded at Kopito?

 2        A.   Because they did not have means of communications.  Communication

 3     equipment was in Vlatko Tripkovic's car, and since he was ambushed that

 4     was the only means of communication, and of course the Rogatica brigade

 5     had communication with Visegrad.

 6        Q.   And could you tell us, what transpired -- what happened when you

 7     finally arrived at Kopito?  Did you have occasion to locate

 8     Perica Markovic and to relay these instructions from the Rogatica command

 9     that you had been instructed to physically go over there and to relay?

10        A.   When I arrived there, I encountered a large group of soldiers.

11     There was a military truck there.  There were private vehicles, some

12     ten-odd cars and a military truck.  And of course, I stopped when I

13     encountered the first soldiers, and since I had not known

14     Perica Markovic, I got out of my vehicle, and there I recognized two

15     people I had met previously.  One of them was Milan Lukic, and the other

16     person was MLD4, the protected witness.  I had known him from before, the

17     same way as I had known Milan Lukic from before.

18        Q.   And just to clarify, did you encounter these two individuals

19     separately or together?

20        A.   There were some other five or six people, and those two persons

21     were with the others.  I told them what had happened and inquired as to

22     the whereabouts of Perica Markovic.  They took me to a house with some

23     ten bunk beds.  I entered the house, was introduced, and then relayed my

24     message.

25        Q.   And then what happened?  Did you leave Kopito after relaying

Page 4109

 1     those instructions that day to Perica Markovic?

 2        A.   No.  I noticed that that period, that time was very stressful for

 3     those 40, 50 soldiers and police officers because Vlatko Tripkovic was a

 4     very well-liked person and commander.  After I relayed the message,

 5     people went silent.  I stayed there throughout the night, and around 9 in

 6     the morning on the 15th I went back to Rogatica, around the time when the

 7     action started to clear the road.

 8        Q.   You said this incident was very stressful for those 40 to 50

 9     soldiers and police officers.  Do you recall what type of outfit or

10     uniform Milan Lukic was wearing when you encountered him at Kopito on the

11     14th of June, 1992?

12        A.   They wore combat fatigues, camouflage fatigues, and they had

13     waist kits, and on the left arm he had an insignia, "milicija."

14        Q.   Thank you.  And just for the -- well, for the record, sir, since

15     it's come out in the transcript that he had the insignia "milicija," to

16     what formation does the term "milicija" in the B/C/S or Serbian language,

17     to what formation does that term apply?

18        A.   There were soldiers, Territorial Defence, and police.  Milicija

19     or police could be active or reserve, and you know what the term "police"

20     means.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And you indicated that you stayed there throughout

22     the night.  Did anyone stay with you that you can tell us about?

23        A.   Novak Prelic was with me there throughout the night and

24     Perica Markovic was constantly there.  He would go out for an hour.

25     People took shifts, and I talked to Milan Lukic because I'd known him

Page 4110

 1     previously.  Some five or six other people were there with me and

 2     Mr. Milan Lukic.  There were also trenches.  There were four or five

 3     houses from the direction of Visegrad, and on the other side of the road,

 4     there were four or five other houses.  There were soldiers manning those

 5     trenches on both sides of the roads.

 6        Q.   Now, one thing I'd like for you to clear up for me is you keep

 7     mentioning a road, and it sounds to me like there's one road.  Could you

 8     explain for me -- you earlier said how the Muslim -- Bosnian Muslim

 9     forces were using this region for their transportation.  Could you

10     describe in detail -- is there some separate road, or are we talking

11     about -- what are we talking about exactly when you say that the Serb

12     forces used this transport route as well as the Bosnian forces using this

13     transport route?

14        A.   They would intersect and traverse that road at the location of

15     Kopito.  They used that area coming from Zepa to Gorazde or vice versa to

16     cross that road.  Sometimes they would move beyond Gornja Lijeske some

17     10 kilometers away, and they would organise classical ambushes.  Their

18     goal on that road was to kill as many soldiers as possible and of course

19     to sever any communication for our purposes.

20        Q.   My colleague has a translation issue.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, with your leave, page 78, line 23.  I

23     think that witness did not mention soldiers but, rather, mentioned

24     people, citizens.  We can listen to tape if there's any doubt.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  There's a procedure for that.  There's a

Page 4111

 1     procedure for that, so let's -- if you wish to have that checked, please

 2     follow the procedure.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I'll take care of that.  I'll have us submit a

 4     request with verification of the transcript.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Now, with respect to the next morning, the 15th of June, 1992,

 6     could you tell us, sir, what happened at that point in time with respect

 7     to yourself and this combined Territorial Defence-Serb police force at

 8     Kopito?  What did you do?  Where did you go?

 9        A.   I was there until the action started.  I returned to Rogatica

10     Command to tell them that the action had started so that they could relay

11     that message to Visegrad so that the action from Visegrad could start at

12     the same time.

13        Q.   And what about those police and soldiers among whom you had seen

14     Milan Lukic and spent the evening with that day?  Did they go the same

15     direction, or did they do something else?  What did they do on the

16     morning of the 15th of June, 1992?

17        A.   They started preparing to take off and clear the road towards

18     Visegrad from around 8 in the morning.

19        Q.   And do you recall when they actually set out for -- to take off

20     on the road towards Visegrad?

21        A.   Around 900 hours.

22        Q.   And now, with respect to the killing of Commander Tripkovic, do

23     you recall when -- pardon me.  Strike that.  Do you recall -- are there

24     any memorials or any other types of commemorative -- are there any other

25     types of commemorative markings relating to that incident where

Page 4112

 1     Commander Tripkovic and the other soldiers you mentioned had been

 2     ambushed and killed on that road that you are aware of?

 3        A.   There is several such markings.  There were other incidents.  I

 4     can tell you later how I was ambushed and one of my soldiers were killed.

 5     We were traveling in two vehicles.  In the other vehicle, another soldier

 6     was killed, and on that spot there is a memorial plaque on that road on

 7     the hairpin bend next to a repeater, there was a vehicle upturned.  They

 8     were burned down in that vehicle, killed, and all the communication

 9     equipment in that car was burnt to --

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... memorial plaque on the

11     hairpin bend next to the repeater, who is it that died there?  Are we

12     talking -- which incident are we talking about?

13        A.   The plaque next to the repeater commemorates the death of

14     Vlatko Tripkovic, that soldier Savic, and another soldier, commemorating

15     the fact that he was killed on the 13th of June, 1992.  I can tell you

16     more about other people killed there.  On the 25th -- on that occasion, I

17     could not pass to celebrate my birthday on the 15th, but on the 25th I

18     passed that road and saw the vehicle, which was lying there next to the

19     road for two months.  And on the 25th I managed to pass that road and go

20     to Obrenovac to my home.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And you had started telling us earlier about an

22     incident that you, yourself, eye-witnessed or experienced on that same

23     road.  You actually started telling us about it several times.  Could you

24     please tell us now about that incident in which you personally

25     experienced an attack, by starting out first telling us what date that

Page 4113

 1     occurred on.

 2        A.   On the 27th of June, the day before St. Vitus Day, I was in a

 3     Volkswagen Golf, blue police vehicle.  I drove Momir Sarencac on the

 4     passenger seat.  Sitting behind me was Momir Bojad.  Prelic Novak was in

 5     the middle of the backseat, and Milicevic Ljubisa was sitting next to

 6     him.  At Donja Lijeske, there was a command post.  I met with

 7     Perica Markovic, and he told me that he was supposed to go to Sjemec to

 8     make some arrangements and agreements with the battalion commander, and

 9     since that road was very problematic at that time, he told me, Wait for

10     me and we will go together.  He was in a white Lada vehicle.  The driver

11     was Tanasic or Tanaskovic.  I'm not sure.  Goran Zecevic was also a

12     passenger there, sitting on the backseat, and Perica Markovic.  They

13     departed first, and I was driving behind them in the direction of

14     Sjemec and Borike.

15             When we had passed the last hair-pin bend entering the forest in

16     the Kopito area, fire was opened at our vehicles.  In the first car, the

17     driver was hit in the chin.  Goran Zecevic was killed and Perica Markovic

18     was not wounded.

19             Since they started braking, I was afraid that they would stop and

20     would be captured alive, but the injured driver managed to floor it.  In

21     my vehicle, Momir Sarencac was hit by bullets.  His intestines were out.

22     He was hit in the arm.  And the person sitting in the middle of the

23     back-seat, Prelic Novak, was hit in the head.  His head exploded.  The

24     others were unscathed.

25             We floored it as well.  The usual procedure was when one passed

Page 4114

 1     the last hair-pin bend entering the forest at Kopito, there were some

 2     felled trees next to the road.  They wanted to make an ambush there.  We

 3     opened fire against them, and that surprised the people in the ambush.

 4     Were driving in the second gear very slowly, and we knew which places

 5     they would ambush us at if there were to be any ambushes.  So we were

 6     sort of prepared.

 7             Perica Markovic told me that he was making -- checking in the

 8     rear-view mirror whether a fallen tree would cover us.  There were some

 9     10, 15 such tree trunks that they used for ambush.  After some half a

10     kilometer, we stopped.  The driver of the other car had his lower jaw

11     missing, and I managed to get to Borike on the wheel rims of my car.

12        Q.   And if we could just back up for one second, you indicated that

13     you had returned fire against him -- I'm just trying to find where it was

14     in the transcript.  Let me just ask it.  Who had opened fire first?  Was

15     it your company or the person setting the ambush and you -- you have a --

16     what forces were setting the ambush, as well?  If you could answer that,

17     please.

18        A.   The Muslim forces organised this ambush.  They opened fire at us.

19     We returned fire.  This was decisive with hind-sight, I can tell you, and

20     then they stopped firing for a brief moment, and we drove through, and

21     whoever was killed by that time was killed.

22        Q.   You indicated that you had to drive through on the rims of your

23     wheels to get through this in one piece.  Could you describe for us, was

24     there anything else about the condition -- of the condition of your

25     vehicle?  What shape was the vehicle in after this ambush, either of the

Page 4115

 1     two vehicles?

 2        A.    That vehicle was -- stayed there on the road towards Sjemec.

 3     I don't know what happened to that vehicle afterwards, but on the vehicle

 4     37 bullet-holes were found on the body of the car, and I'm not talking

 5     about the windows and tires.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, another question I have for you is with respect

 7     to the duration of the war.  You had said at the time -- strike that.

 8     Did you hold any specific rank at the time that you were in Kopito with

 9     the Army of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   I was promoted to captain later on by decree of the commander in

11     terms of rank, but I was at the time company commander, and on the 14th

12     or the 20th of September, the commander issued the order promoting me to

13     the rank of captain.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I thank you for giving us this testimony on

15     direct examination.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have no further questions at this

17     time for this witness.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  Yes, Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask -- I did not anticipate

20     that the Chamber would adjourn the testimony of -- the cross-examination

21     of the previous witness.  Could I ask that we begin the cross-examination

22     tomorrow?  I had planned to prepare tonight.

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  We'll do that.

24             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We adjourn.  We're adjourned until tomorrow,

Page 4116

 1     2.15.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.37 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

 4                           January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.