1 Thursday, 15 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, I understand you have some
6 preliminary matters.
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes. Just one matter, Your Honour. It's rather
8 brief, actually. We received at approximately 10 a.m. this morning a
9 list of documents tendered by the Office of the Prosecutor to be used in
10 cross-examination of the witness that is on the stand, and for the record
11 several of these documents were not available previously, were never
12 disclosed previously including photographs that purport to show my client
13 in uniform, which I believe ought to have been disclosed previously. I
14 will have an objection if they try to use some of these in
15 cross-examination, but my concern -- is that the -- it's my understanding
16 that the practice [indiscernible] this courtroom was as has been in other
17 cases I've been in that documents for cross-examination ought to be
18 noticed to the opposing party when the witness takes the stand and takes
19 the oath, and this was not done in this case on rather, massive scale,
20 and I repeat that this witness is one that they've known about since I
21 believe May or June of last year as this witness originally under
22 pseudonym had been one of the initial witnesses disclosed within the
23 alibi notification that was done at that time. So I'm concerned that
24 we're getting late disclosure of documents intended for cross as early as
25 this morning so that I have just now been able to print up these
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, do you know the adage, what is sauce
3 for the goose is sauce for the gander? Are you aware of it?
4 MR. IVETIC: I'm aware of the adage.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Because I believe you had -- the
6 Prosecutor had the same complaints about the Defence.
7 MR. IVETIC: I don't know about the entire time. I wasn't
8 obviously in the case the entire time, but I do know that is out there as
9 a rule or as a directive. I don't know the exact status of it, but I do
10 believe any documents or photographs relating to my client have to be
11 disclosed under either Rules 68 or 66(A).
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, it's interesting that in this case
13 as in most cases the parties have the same complaints about each other in
14 relation to procedure and matters. I am not a slave to procedure, and
15 you have benefitted from that attitude on my part. I believe that
16 procedural rules must sub-serve the wider and broader and more important
17 purpose of achieving justice, and that is what I am looking at, and I
18 want to ensure that no party is disadvantaged and prejudiced by any late
19 notification, and that is what will guide me in determining any objection
20 that is raised. I don't say the rules don't have any importance. They
21 are there, and I expect them to be followed, but ultimately I'm concerned
22 with the wider purpose of achieving justice.
23 Now, let us continue with the case.
24 Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I was just about to begin my
1 cross-examination of Mr. Djeric, so if he could be brought into the
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let Mr. Djeric be brought in.
4 MR. GROOME: And Your Honour, I'm not sure if you wish to make a
5 statement under 15 bis before he comes in.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. I have to say that in the
7 absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert, Judge David and I sit pursuant to 15
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: GORAN DJERIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
15 Q. Mr. Djeric, I'm Dermot Groome, and I will represent the
16 Prosecution here and ask you a few questions. Are you able to hear me
17 through your headset?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'd like to begin -- you told us yesterday that you were a member
20 of the Army of Republika Srpska, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were assigned to the Rogatica Brigade?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the Rogatica Brigade is a military battalion that's part of
25 the Army of the Republika Srpska, correct?
1 A. First, it was the Army of Yugoslavia and then the Army of
2 Republika Srpska from April to May, and June it became VRS.
3 Q. And how long was it in existence? Let me put it another way.
4 Was it in existence throughout the course of the war, which ended in
6 A. You mean the Rogatica Brigade? Well, it existed throughout the
7 war. Until the end of the war it existed.
8 Q. Now, can you give me your sense, as someone who was involved in
9 the heart of Bosnia
10 when the conflict began and when it ended?
11 A. The beginning of April, the conflict began, and it ended with the
13 Q. So that is April 1992 as the beginning and the Dayton accords in
14 the fall of 1995 as the end, is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And during that entire time, were there armed confrontations
17 between members of the VRS such as yourself and members of the Bosnian
18 Federation Army?
19 A. Yes. Yes, there were.
20 Q. And how would you describe the geographic area that this
21 combat -- these combat activities took place in?
22 A. I don't understand the question.
23 Q. How would you -- is it fair to say that over the majority of
25 including Visegrad, Rogatica, Srebrenica, all of these areas in Eastern
2 A. Conflicts were very frequent towards Zepa, Gorazde, Visegrad,
3 Rogatica. Very often, not constantly day in and day out, but every
4 couple of days there were skirmishes, conflicts all over the place.
5 Q. Okay. I'd now like to ask you about how you came to know
6 Mr. Milan
7 you met him somewhere around January 1992. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, the beginning of January, 3rd or 4th of January.
9 Q. Prior to that, had you had any contact with Milan Lukic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And I believe you told us that you were introduced to Milan Lukic
12 through one of his relatives. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, Bozo Ivanovic.
14 Q. And you shared a drink at a hotel bar that lasted approximately
15 45 minutes; correct?
16 A. Approximately so, yes.
17 Q. And after that time, you did not see him again until you met him
18 in Kopito on the 14th of June, 1992; is that correct?
19 A. No, I did not see him in the meantime.
20 Q. Now, after your encounter with him in June of 1992, how many
21 times have you met him after that?
22 A. For a time I did not see him because I had some problems with my
23 eye. I underwent surgery, so I did not see him for a long time, but in
24 1996 I saw him on several occasions. He had a cafe there, and we would
25 come for drinks and then talk, and after that I saw him on the eve of
1 St. Nicholas Day, 18th of December. I went there with a friend of mine
2 to have a drink, and after that I did not see him at all.
3 Q. And that was what year?
4 A. 1996. 18th of December, 1996. This was the last time I saw him.
5 The 19th December is St. Nicholas Day, and Miso Bojovic [phoen], my best
6 man, celebrates that feast.
7 Q. And between the time of 1996 and the time you saw him here
8 yesterday, had you been in contact with him, or did you see him?
9 A. No, no. No, I did not see him.
10 Q. Now, the record records you as saying he had a cafe there. Did
11 you mean that Milan Lukic had a cafe?
12 A. Milan Lukic had a cafe. It is a shopping mall at the --
13 Visegrad, and he had a cafe there.
14 Q. Could you please physically describe Milan Lukic as you remember
15 him from 1992 or even 1996? How tall would you say he was as you recall
16 him from the days before you saw him here?
17 A. I remember him well. He's slightly taller than I am. I'm 185,
18 186 centimetres. He was a lot thinner than today, and I used to be a lot
19 thinner than I am today. He wasn't skinny. He was elegantly built.
20 Q. Would you be able to approximate his weight?
21 A. Up to 90 kilos. Not more, I'm certain of that.
22 Q. Now, there seemed to be a little bit of difficulty in
23 translating --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, did you mean his weight at that time
25 or no?
1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. At that time.
2 Q. The 90 kilos, was that your assessment of his weight back when
3 you knew him in the 1990s?
4 A. Yes. He's tall. He's close to 190 centimetres tall. I know
5 that he's a bit taller than I am. Then 85 to 90 kilos, which would mean
6 that he wasn't overweight.
7 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Ivetic actually pointed Milan Lukic out to
8 you. He told you where he was in the courtroom, and he actually turned
9 and pointed in the direction of Milan Lukic. Did you need him to do that
10 in order to recognise Milan Lukic here yesterday?
11 A. No, there was no need for that.
12 Q. Did you recognise Milan Lukic when you came into the courtroom?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. How long did it take you to recognise Milan Lukic?
15 A. One second.
16 Q. Now, some might say that it's implausible for you to be able to
17 recognise him to quickly after such a long period of time. Is there any
18 doubt in your mind that the Milan Lukic you saw in the courtroom is the
19 same person that you knew from the 1990s?
20 A. One million per cent. He's gained some weight, the same as I
21 have. I'm 1 million per cent that's Milan Lukic. I'm sure that that's
23 Q. Now, yesterday you described remembering -- and you described in
24 rather precise detail the uniform he was wearing when you saw him on the
1 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that ERN 0644-6670, 0644-6670, it's just
2 a single document, could I ask that be called up for the witness to view.
3 Q. Now, sir, there's a TV screen to your right. I'm going to ask
4 that you be shown a photograph on that screen. Could I ask that we focus
5 on the bottom photograph, maybe even focus on Milan Lukic if that assists
6 the witness.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, this is one of the documents that I had
9 mentioned earlier. This is a document that was just disclosed to us this
10 morning at 10.00. I would object to this document without knowing the
11 provenance of the document, the date it was taken, whom it was taken by
12 or at least the time period it was taken in because, of course, it's
13 quite relevant material in terms of establishing this document and
14 whether it can be used for the purpose of the question. Now, granted
15 there hasn't been a question yet asserted, so I have reserved the right
16 to object to specific questions, but as far as the use of the document is
17 concerned, I do have an objection based upon those grounds. This was
18 never previously disclosed to us, even though now we have Mr. Groome
19 saying it shows Mr. Milan Lukic. I believe then it ought to have been
20 disclosed previously.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, two points. First, an explanation
23 as for the late disclosure, and secondly, the provenance of the document.
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The document is from the court
25 file from the case -- the court file from Serbia of the case against
1 Milan Lukic and other people for the incident that occurred at Severin.
2 We asked for this court file. It a very, very large file. We've been
3 going through it as we get it translated, and we have made disclosures
4 from this file with respect to documents that we determined were Rule 68
5 or contained 66(A)(ii) material. On the 31st of January, we sent a
6 letter to Defence counsel letting him know that we had this very large
7 file and offering them the same opportunity to view the file as us, still
8 telling them that we realised it was our obligation to get it translated
9 and to ferret out any Rule 68 material but offering them the opportunity
10 to come and view that file.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: The 31st of January?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: When?
14 MR. GROOME: Of 2008 is when we sent a letter to Defence counsel,
15 Your Honour.
16 MR. IVETIC: 2009, Your Honour.
17 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm misspeaking. 31st of
18 December, 2008.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: 31st of December, 2008?
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Yes.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. So sir, can I ask you to take a look at this photograph --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. I have to consider whether you
25 have given us sufficient explanation.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the Chamber considers that you can proceed.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Sir, this is a black and white photograph, but can I ask you as
5 best you're able, can you look at the uniform -- well, first of all, do
6 you recognise Milan Lukic in this photograph?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Can I ask you to take the pen in front of you and circle his
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Now, again, this photograph is a black and white photograph, so
12 we don't have the benefit of the colour, but you described his uniform as
13 being a combat fatigue; I think you said camouflage yesterday. Is it
14 similar to the uniform that we see him dressed in in this picture?
15 A. I cannot tell you greater detail. He had a vest. It was a
16 chilly night, lined with something that looked like fur. It was a
17 variegated multi-coloured vest.
18 Q. The variegated, multi-coloured uniform, is that what is commonly
19 called a camouflage uniform?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And looking at his facial features there and his hair, is that
22 how you remember him from the period 1992?
23 A. When I saw him, his hair was slightly shorter than in this
24 picture, and he might have been a bit skinnier. Maybe this picture does
25 not do him credit, but I do believe that he was slimmer than in this
2 Q. Aside from those differences, it does appear to be the Milan
3 Lukic as you remember him in 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender this photograph.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. I'm going to ask that you be shown another photograph. It's
9 0644-6664. Again, it's from the same court file. I'm sorry.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P216, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: And again, Your Honour, I must object and stress
13 that the e-mail disclosing this batch does not have these photographs,
14 and these photographs obviously do not need to be translated. So they
15 withheld these photographs which on first blush, they should have been
16 able to immediately recognise this is material they ought to have
17 disclosed to the Defence, so they've not disclosed it until this morning.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, did I understand you earlier to say
19 that this was sent on the 31st of December, 2008, to the Defence?
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, what we disclosed on the 31st was
21 documents that after reviewing -- we're still in the process of reviewing
22 this file. It's an enormous file. It's an entire trial that took place
23 in Belgrade
24 -- Defence counsel had the same access to the file, and I would hope that
25 someone representing a client would seek out their earlier court cases.
1 We sought out the court case. We received it. We're in the process of
2 going through it, translating it, looking for Rule 68 material. On the
3 31st of December, we disclosed what we had already identified as Rule 68
4 material, and we said to -- in the letter -- and I'm paraphrasing because
5 I don't have the letter in front of me. We said we have this large
6 volume of material which we are reviewing present. You are invited to
7 come, look at this file. There may be material. We described what the
8 file was, and we offered them a copy of the file or an opportunity to
9 come and view it, and that was done on the 31st of December.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So your answer to the objection is that you
11 disclosed the file on the 31st of December, it's a large file, and
12 included in that file is the photograph in question.
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So your point is that Mr. Ivetic and the
15 Defence, if they had examined the file, would have seen the photograph.
16 MR. IVETIC: I don't have custody of the file. It's still with
17 the Prosecution, Your Honour. They sent that e-mail knowing that I'm
18 traveling because I'd sent an e-mail saying I'm traveling. And I gave
19 the opportunity to meet with the originals that I had in my possession
20 that they needed to review. So when I'm in the region traveling trying
21 to get witnesses to come here and they say, Oh, we have this huge amount
22 of documents that we have in our possession that we're not going to give
23 to you, is that a disclosure under the rules that is sufficient when they
24 have materials of this nature?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you're traveling, but you're not alone.
1 You have others working with you. It's not personal to you.
2 MR. IVETIC: I was the only person in The Hague, Your Honours.
3 That's the -- that's the way it is, especially with the way the cases are
4 funded. I don't know if Your Honour's familiar with that.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just point out also, I didn't
6 have my rules handy. I didn't want to misspeak. What the provision that
7 deals with photographs is 66 (B):
8 "The Prosecutor shall on request permit the Defence to inspect
9 any books, document, photographs, and tangible objects in the
10 Prosecutor's custody or control."
11 We advised him on the 31st about the existence of this file. The
12 judgement on this case is down on their exhibit list as 65 ter number 63,
13 so either they've gotten this file independently or they've looked
14 through the copy that we've given them and have added it to their 65 ter
15 list but seems to be a clear indication that Milan Lukic Defence is aware
16 of this file just as we are aware of it.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, my inclination would be to say that
18 it has been disclosed to you, but are you able to tell me in what
19 specific way you have been prejudiced?
20 MR. IVETIC: At present, no, because they have not asked
21 questions about this particular exhibit or document. It's not an exhibit
22 yet, but this particular document, and I don't know about any others that
23 are in there, but again with the time period that we have ongoing in the
24 case, how we're supposed to review a voluminous file that's only in their
25 custody, I don't know how to do it. I applied to the Court for
1 instructions as to how we're supposed to proceed in such a manner, but it
2 just seems like we're constantly running up against this.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you are not alone in the case.
4 There is Mr. Alarid. I haven't seen him, but I presume Mr. Alarid is
5 still lead counsel in the case. You have assistants. You have a case
7 MR. IVETIC: Under the trial strategy, we're only allowed one
8 paid assistant, Your Honour, and during the break, with the way the OLAD
9 works, we are not supposed to be working in The Hague. They actually do
10 not pay for DSA during the break session, and the trial strategy that
11 they have does not foresee work during the break according to the
12 communications that I've received. I had to -- I usually have to
13 specifically operate --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tell me specifically.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying that in re-examination, because
17 you have a right to re-examine, you would not be able to ask questions of
18 this witness?
19 MR. IVETIC: I haven't said that yet because I don't know what
20 the questions are yet. I might not be embarrassed by the questions. I
21 don't know. It's premature.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed. If we get to that point, then
23 you can inform me.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to take a look at another photograph.
1 0644-6664. It is another photograph from the same file from the court in
3 this similar to the uniform that he was wearing at that time?
4 A. I can't tell the colour of this uniform. He didn't wear any
5 head-gear. He did not have any other insignia except for milicija or
6 police. This one was not for sure. It was multi-coloured but not this
8 Q. Okay. And how about the weapon that he's holding there? Is that
9 the weapon -- do you recognise the weapon?
10 A. I think that this is an automatic rifle, short, not with a wooden
11 but a shorter version of an automatic rifle.
12 Q. Do you recall the weapon he had when you saw him in June of 1992?
13 A. Mostly at that time, automatic rifles had long wooden butts.
14 Some had machine guns 84. Some had semi-automatic rifles. There were
15 different types of weapons in circulation.
16 Q. Can I ask you to take the pen and circle the area where you
17 remember seeing this emblem that indicated he was with the police.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And can you see any emblem on the uniform in that location now?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, you've circled a portion of his uniform on the left
22 shoulder. Is that the arm that the emblem was on?
23 A. I think it was on the left arm.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender this
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P217, Your Honours.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Now, sir, I was a bit confused with your testimony about the
5 different locations yesterday, so I'm going to ask that you be shown a
6 map, and I'm going to ask you to mark the map, and I'm going to ask that
7 the map, which is 65 ter number 176, it's going to be a map of the area
8 of Visegrad to Rogatica. Before you do mark it, before you do mark it, I
9 would ask you just to allow me to give you my instructions so that it's
10 clear what the marks mean, that it agrees with the record.
11 Now, it's probably impossible for you to see now. We'll enlarge
12 it as much as possible. I believe Rogatica is to the left and Visegrad
13 is to the right. Please let me know if you'd like us to enlarge it more
14 to make it easier for you to see.
15 A. It should be enlarged.
16 Q. Okay. They've enlarged the section. Of course when we enlarge
17 the map, there's less of it that we can see, so right now the left-hand
18 side of the map has been enlarged. Can you see the words "Rogatica" or
19 the word "Rogatica"?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. GROOME: And could I ask the court usher just to move it
22 slowly, just like that, until we see Visegrad on the right side of the
24 Q. Okay. And now we can see the river Drina, and we can see the
25 word "Visegrad." Do you see that now, sir.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that we zoom out again so we can see both
3 Rogatica and Visegrad. Now, sir, in your testimony you were talking
4 about this road that you said was the main road, and you described it as
5 being an important road. Can you see that road on this map?
6 A. Not now. I can't see it here. The main and only communication
7 was through Visegrad through Borike to Rogatica. Visegrad through Borike
8 to Rogatica. This is the road along the Drina River
9 passable at the time through Medjedja. It was not passable for us, Serb
10 army. Visegrad, Borike, Rogatica. That was the road.
11 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask if the usher could enlarge the left half of
12 the map. Maybe we can do it in two parts to see if that assists the
13 witness. Do you see coming out of Rogatica there's a thick line, and it
14 goes all the way to Visegrad? Passes through Kopito, through Borike,
16 A. Sjemec. The name that you pronounced was Sjemec.
17 Q. Can you see that road on the map in front of you?
18 A. I do see the line, but I'd like to see it enlarged. I just see a
19 line, nothing more than that. I can't see Borike on the map. I would
20 like to have it enlarged. The most important road here is the
21 Visegrad-Borike road through Sjemec. I'd like that section to be
22 enlarged if possible, please.
23 MR. GROOME: Can that be done?
24 Q. Would it assist you in seeing a hard copy of the map?
25 A. Let me take a look, yes. Why not?
1 MR. GROOME: Before this is shown to the witness, this is my
2 copy. It has two words, Kladanj and Rujiste, up in the right-hand
3 corner. I don't believe it's going to be considered leading any way, but
4 could I ask that Mr. Ivetic just look at the map before it is shown to
5 the witness to see if he has any objection.
6 MR. IVETIC: No objections, Your Honour.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Sir, we're going to give you a hard copy of the map that we were
9 trying to work with in electronic form. Can you get your bearings on
10 that map now?
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. Would it be easier for you to work and mark that map than the
13 electronic one?
14 A. I don't quite understand.
15 Q. I want to ask you to make some marks for us about the locations
16 you've described in your testimony. Would it be easier if I asked you to
17 do it on the hard copy rather than on the television screen?
18 A. It's really all the same, if we could only just zoom in on this
19 portion and then I could see the individual villages and places better,
20 but I can use both equally well. I can use the one or the other. It's
21 just a matter of zooming in on the specific portion. Perhaps if we could
22 just get this portion blown up, and then I'd still be perfectly able to
23 follow everything on the screen.
24 Q. I think it may actually make sense because I'm going to ask you
25 to make markings all over the map to work on the ELMO.
1 MR. GROOME: So if I could ask the usher to maybe turn on the
3 Q. And then I'm going to ask you to make some marks on that map.
4 And again, sir, if you'd wait until I give you an instruction about what
5 I'd like to you mark, I think it'll -- the end product will be more
7 MR. GROOME: Now, could I ask that the witness be given a
8 fine-lined pen because the villages are small.
9 Q. Sir, while we're getting you a pen, could I ask you to study the
10 map and ask you, would you be able to indicate the road that you've
11 spoken about yesterday in your testimony?
12 A. Sure.
13 Q. I'm going to ask that you be given the blue pen, and could I ask
14 you to simply trace the road between Visegrad and Rogatica.
15 A. I can't see Borike in this map. Krsmanovici, Brankovici, I see
16 all of those, but I can't see what it says here, for example.
17 Q. Can you see Rogatica on that map?
18 A. Yes, but I'm telling you about the other road through Borike.
19 That's where I started out from. We went from Rogatica to Borike, and
20 after Borike there was the HQ, and then from Borike through Sjemec, we
21 went on to Kopito, Gornja Lijeske; Gornja Lijeske on to Visegrad.
22 Q. Are you able to tell us where the road was blocked? Again, I'd
23 ask you not to let the tip of the pen touch the map until you have an
24 instruction from me.
25 A. That's the road. This is Borike and this is the road through
1 Stavanj. This is Stavanj. I can't see Stavanj. Here it is. That's the
2 road. So -- just a minute, please. Around Brdo, that's it. All right.
3 These bends here, a series of bends, is where Kopito is. Gornja Lijeske,
4 Donja Lijeske, and then Kopito, and then there it is. If that's what it
5 says what I'm pointing at. Is this Sjemec there, what I'm pointing at?
6 I can't see it properly. It's reads something like that, but I don't
7 know. Yeah, there's the road, that's the road over there, and yes -- and
8 then over there, there is a series of bends here, and then the first
9 series of bends and then Gornja Rijeka, and that's where Vlatko Tripkovic
10 got killed at, Gornja Rijeka.
11 And over here, to somewhere around here, over here, around here.
12 Where I was ambushed, that's here, the last series of bends before
13 Kopito, that's where.
14 Q. Okay, sir, to do this in an orderly fashion, can I ask you to
15 draw the road as best you can. If you have to approximate it, then do
16 so, but draw the road as best you're able that you were referring to
17 yesterday in your testimony.
18 Are you able to do that?
19 A. Just a minute, please. Just a minute, please. Take it easy.
20 I'm getting to it. That's the cross-roads, so right here, this is
21 Borike, the cross-road after Rogatica and after Sjemenic [phoen], this
22 cross-road right here, that's it. There you go. Krsmanovic, Brankovic
23 -- just a minute. Please let me see. This way?
24 Q. Is the pen working? I don't see any mark.
25 A. It's weak. It's not working properly.
1 Borike -- all right. The cross-road after Rogatica, this one,
2 and this one to Sjemenic on to Visegrad, so this way, and then around
3 here. There you have it. I marked the one over here, so this is the
4 road that I marked.
5 Q. I think you were using that defective pen for the rest of the
6 journey. Can I ask you just to retrace that with that marker now, all
7 the way to Visegrad.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. I think we can see that now. Can I ask you just to draw a line
10 through "Kladanj" and "Rujiste" at the top of the map that's not markings
11 that you made, so if you just draw a line through those two words. See
12 at the very top right-hand corner of the map, it has two words,
13 hand-written, "Kladanj" and "Rujiste"?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So can you just draw a line through them since they are
16 not your marks?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And can I ask you to write your name at the top of the map so
19 we'll know that it's you who made these marks on the map.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Now, can I ask you, with a simple "X," can you show us where
22 along that road you tell us it was blocked on the 14th of June.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'd like to -- well, if he's referring
24 to the witness's testimony, he should give a transcript page, I think, as
25 to which particular reference he's referring to so we can have the full
1 context of the ...
2 MR. GROOME: Is it in dispute that he said the road was blocked?
3 I thought that was the entire nature of the alibi.
4 MR. IVETIC: But if you're citing to him what his testimony is,
5 which part of the -- of his testimony? Perhaps I didn't catch the whole
6 question. I thought you were asking about -- he'd drawn something.
7 MR. GROOME: Perhaps I have it wrong.
8 Q. Sir --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. Sir, was the road blocked on the 14th of June? Is that your
13 A. The 14th of June? Yes, 14th of June it was blocked. The
14 blockade was lifted no sooner than the 15th. The 15th, the morning of
15 the 15th, an operation was launched to lift the blockade. I drew only
16 to --
17 Q. Can I ask you just to draw an X across the spot on the road where
18 you say he was blocked? I see you've drawn one line of the X. Can you
19 just simply draw the remainder of the X to show us where the road was
20 blocked. Again, there seems to be a problem with the pen.
21 A. I marked it. Right here.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] ... the witness had
23 drawn previously a single line to which Mr. Groome referred. What was
24 that meant to be?
25 MR. GROOME:
1 Q. Do you understand what Judge Robinson is asking you, sir?
2 A. This first line that I drew right here, the first one is the
3 place where found the soldiers and the police who were together, and
4 that's where I conveyed to news to them, and the other place that I
5 indicated was the place where Vlatko Tripkovic was killed, the mark lower
7 Q. Sir, it'll get terribly confusing if you make marks aside from my
8 instruction. What I'm interested in you marking is where the road was
9 blocked. Was that the same place where Tripkovic was killed? Without
10 making any mark, was the road blocked where Tripkovic was killed, or was
11 that a different location?
12 A. We couldn't even get to that location, but the location that I've
13 marked, the first one, that's where the operation took place, and that
14 man Djeric had been killed three days previously, and they wanted to
15 evacuate the dead. It was blocked there, and one could proceed no
16 further. One couldn't proceed any further than that. I explained about
17 the first place at Kopito, and then you couldn't get further down that
19 Q. Okay. So as I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong,
20 the first line that you made, which is just a single line across the
21 road, is where the road was blocked. It was impossible for anyone to get
22 across that area. Is that your testimony?
23 A. I'm not talking about the blockade. It wasn't that it was
24 blocked. One just couldn't proceed in that direction because some people
25 had been killed there, and they were evacuating from those houses. The
1 soldiers were there to evacuate those people who were in those houses who
2 were dead, and they couldn't manage for one, two, three days before that,
3 and that's where the soldiers were, and that's where this portion between
4 these two portions was. It was quite inaccessible. You have bends in
5 the road there, thick woods, that sort of thing, and all the problems
6 that were occurring in that area between the line that I drew now. The
7 first line that I drew now and the second line that I drew now, that's
8 the area that was totally unsecured, and as soon as there is an incident,
9 one just can't get through. I mean, I'm not sure you understand because
10 there's a difference, you know, the distance between the two roads being
11 about 10 kilometers or thereabout.
12 Q. Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong. So it's really the space
13 between the two marks you made across the road, that was the portion if
14 of the road that it was impossible to go past. Is that what your
15 testimony is?
16 A. Whenever there's an incident, one can't get through. This is
17 entirely unsecured, from the Rogatica road from the Visegrad road, it was
18 never secured, that part of the road. It was only when we secured it
19 when it wasn't blocked then. And the Rogatica and the Visegrad Brigade,
20 and they all covered those ten kilometers, and then it was safe. But
21 other than that, whenever there's an incident, it's always blocked. One
22 can't get through before it's cleared.
23 Q. Sir, again with the blue pen, can I ask you to circle the entire
24 portion of the road that you say was insecure and people could not get
25 through. I have a blue pen if it assists.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Okay. Now, I want you to make a few other marks. Rogatica we
3 can see clearly on the map. Visegrad we can see clearly on the map. Can
4 I ask you to put the letter "B" as to where Borike is located.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Can I ask you to put a "K" to indicate where Kopito is located.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Can I ask you to put an "S" where Sjemec - and can you please
9 excuse my pronunciation - is located.
10 A. This is the Sjemec field. That's what it's called. Sjemec is a
11 relative concept. It's actually a mountain. So this is the section that
12 you probably mean. That's that.
13 Q. You've made a circle on a section of the road. Can I ask you to
14 put an "S" inside that section so we know that that's the Sjemec part of
15 the road.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Now, is it possible to show Kovanj on the map? Am I correct in
18 saying that Kovanj is west of Rogatica, and it's not on this map?
19 A. Kovanj.
20 Q. Yes. Again, excuse my pronunciation.
21 A. Kovanj is off the map. One needs to go from Rogatica to Sokolac.
22 It's the first village one comes across down that road.
23 Q. And Sokolac is off that map, as well, correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can you circle Sokolac for us on the map?
1 A. It's not here. It's off the map.
2 Q. How about Jabuka, J-a-b-u-k-a? Is that also off the map?
3 A. I can't see it. It's in the direction of Gorazde heading out
4 from Rogatica. But you take a different road across the mountain and not
5 along the river.
6 Q. And finally the last location I just want to confirm with you is
7 not on that map, and that's Zakomo, Z-a-k-o-m-o.
8 A. I can't see Zakomo either. It's not on the map.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I admit that map. Sorry,
10 I would tender that map.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P218, Your Honours.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. Sir, now, I'm going to be showing you a few military reports, and
15 that's why I was asking you some of these different names. Am I correct
16 in saying that if someone were to say there was a problem on the
17 Rogatica-Borike segment of the road, they're referring to the portion of
18 the road between Rogatica and Borike. Is that not correct?
19 A. I don't understand. Can you repeat the question, please?
20 Q. When you were working as a soldier in this area, if there was a
21 problem between -- on the road between Rogatica and Borike, how would you
22 communicate that? What phrase would you use to communicate that that's
23 where the problem was?
24 A. I would tell them there's a problem somewhere. I'm not really
25 sure what you're driving at. Can you try to elaborate? I didn't
1 understand the nature of your question.
2 Q. I apologise. I'm being unclear. If we had a military report
3 that said there was combat on the Kopito-Visegrad segment of the road,
4 would the military report say, combat on the Kopito-Visegrad segment? Is
5 that how it would be identified?
6 A. If they said Kopito, then they would know where it was.
7 Donja Rijeka, Kopito, that's the road from Borike to Visegrad. That's
8 clear enough. One knows where Kopito is. Everybody knows that, clear
9 enough. They would say a problem at Kopito, and then everybody would be
10 perfectly up to date.
11 Q. What would they say if it was between -- if it was half-way
12 between Kopito and Visegrad? How would they identify that part of the
14 A. Above Gornja Lijeske, above Gornja Lijeske. That would have been
15 the reference point. Between Visegrad and Kopito, about mid-way in
16 between, just further up from Gornja Lijeske would be the mid-point
17 between the two. I'm talking about Kopito on the one hand and Visegrad
18 on the other.
19 Q. What's the approximate distance between Kopito and Visegrad, the
20 town of Visegrad?
21 A. About 15 kilometers, 16 perhaps. I didn't exactly measure it,
22 but I think that should be in the ball park.
23 Q. And given the terrain and the hair-pin turns, how long should it
24 take someone to drive from Kopito to Visegrad if there was no blockage in
25 the road and no traffic, if you could just drive from Kopito to Visegrad?
1 How long would that take?
2 A. It's a slow journey, very slow. Just before the Kopito peak, you
3 have a series of bends, and then past Gornja Lijeske, again, another
4 series of bends. Between Gornja Lijeske and Kopito, 90 per cent of that
5 section is hair-pin bends, very sharp bends, difficult to drive. If you
6 drive there, you're in first gear up to second gear, perhaps. Third
7 gear, hardly use at all.
8 Q. Would it take more than a half an hour?
9 A. Yes, that much is certain. If you drive carefully and safely,
10 over half an hour.
11 Q. Would it take more than an hour?
12 A. It might. It might, if there are no problems, if the car is
13 solid and in good working order.
14 Q. Now --
15 MR. IVETIC: Just to correct the transcript. I believe -- and
16 the question at line -- the answer at line 16, I believe the witness had
17 said it could be done in half an hour, it could if there are no problems.
18 It says, "it might." I don't know how we want to deal with that. Do we
19 need to a request to have the audio listened to, Your Honour? It seems
20 like the --
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I can clarify with just an
22 additional question.
23 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Mr. Ivetic is not sure that the transcript has recorded you
1 accurately. Is it your evidence that the trip between Kopito and
2 Visegrad could be done in a half an hour, that it is possible to do it in
3 a half an hour?
4 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry. In an hour. In an hour. He said at
5 line 16, it's when he's talking about an hour.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. So is it your evidence -- sir, the easiest thing is if you can
8 just tell us, how many minutes would it take to get from Kopito to
9 Visegrad? Then it'll be clear. If you know its approximation.
10 A. What I said is this: If one drives fast, if one takes risks,
11 maybe half an hour, but if you drive safely, regularly, you couldn't do
12 it in under an hour, so let's try to calculate a mean, about 45 minutes.
13 So I'd put it somewhere between half an hour and one hour, depending on
14 who's doing the driving, depending on what sort of a vehicle is involved,
15 and so on and so forth.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's very helpful. Now, I took from your
17 testimony yesterday that this particular road that you've now marked on
18 the map is a very important road logistically -- or was a very important
19 road logistically in 1992. Is that correct?
20 A. The only road that we from the Rogatica Brigade had on our way to
22 thing that was important was that the Muslims also needed this road.
23 This was a corridor for them. It's not a surfaced road, but it's a road
24 they used through the woods from Zepa to Gorazde. It was at Kopito of
25 all places, between Gornja Lijeske and Kopito. That's where they made
1 their crossings. Everything that they carried across from Zepa to
2 Gorazde, they used that road, and we from Zepa to Rogatica also used the
3 same road in order to get stuff to Serbia.
4 Q. So am I correct in saying that it was a vital artery for military
5 supplies and food supplies for the Rogatica Brigade, and if you can
6 answer it simply yes or no, perhaps we can move a little bit quicker.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And am I right in saying that any blockage on this road would
9 have significance for military purposes?
10 A. Well, it's not -- it doesn't matter who was actually in control
11 of that section of the road, but that's what I'm telling you about. It's
12 a 10-kilometer stretch. It would have been difficult. Nobody had enough
13 man-power to keep it under control, to keep it covered all the time.
14 They would use 100- and 200-metre stretches just to cover it, and then
15 they would take cover whenever possible and then when they wanted the
16 army from the other sides to withdraw, because the Rogatica municipality
17 territory is quite large. You have the part towards Borike, the part
18 towards Zepa. And in order to secure that part of the road, you would
19 need all the of the soldiers, the whole brigade to got here and secure
20 the area, so you could never be entirely covered, you know, fully
21 covered. The whole area, it was -- what should I call it, a bit risky,
22 the whole thing.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. I'm not asking you about what it took to safe-guard the road.
25 All I'm asking you is, if it's impossible to use that road for the Army
1 of Republika Srpska, that has military significance, does it not? It
2 affects military operations, it affects military resupply? Is that not
4 A. Of course. No supplies could possibly come through, food or
5 anything else.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, yesterday -- I want to go back now to
7 your military service. Yesterday you stated that you were stationed in
8 Borike. Is that where you were first stationed when you joined the unit?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And were you always under the command of a person by the name of
11 Rajko Kusic?
12 A. Rajko Kusic, he was the brigade commander. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And what was your title or rank under Rajko Kusic?
14 A. I got my rank towards the end of my service, war-time service. I
15 was the company commander, but that's how it was for a while. The Borike
16 company, specifically.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, Mr. Ivetic spent 45 minutes. You
18 have so far used 52, and I'll give you another 8 or 10 minutes.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask for some leniency just with all
20 the difficulties we had with the map, I think it was absolutely essential
21 for the Chamber to have the map, but I do have a number of very important
22 documents that I want to try and work with the witness. I'm not sure
23 that I can do it in 8 minutes.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much time?
25 MR. GROOME: I think, Your Honour, about half an hour.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll see how we get along, yes.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Sir, as part of your duties as company commander, would you make
4 reports to Rajko Kusic?
5 A. No. We just had working meetings, briefings, and tasks were
6 handed out. In concrete terms, I was tasked with defending Borike from
7 the direction of Zepa. We had our lines there, and this was my task, to
8 defend this line and those trenches.
9 Q. My time is quite limited, so if possible I'd ask you to just
10 answer the questions as shortly or as briefly as you're able. I want to
11 show you a report. You described an incident on the 27th of June
12 yesterday. I want to ask that you be shown 0642-9694, and again, on the
13 screen in front of you there's going to be a report that we received from
14 the Republika Srpska when we asked for the records of your unit. It'll
15 take a few seconds to get it up, but what I want you to look at is, I
16 believe this report refers to the incident that you were telling us about
17 yesterday on the 27th, and I want you to read the report and confirm, is
18 this a report of the incident you testified to yesterday?
19 A. If in could be enlarged a bit for me, please.
20 Q. It's the first paragraph of that report that I think refers to --
21 are you able to read it now?
22 A. Yes, I can see that.
23 Q. Please review it, and when you've done that, let us know if
24 that's an accurate report of what happened on the 27th.
25 A. The van was not protected, and the Yugo car was not there. We
1 had two vehicles. One was Lada, a white Lada, and another was a police
2 Volkswagen Golf.
3 Q. Can I ask that you look at the bottom of the document where it's
4 signed by Kusic or for Kusic. Do you recognise the seal and your
5 superior's name?
6 A. If you could track back to the top of the page. There was
7 mention of a car hitting an anti-tank mine. Maybe there was another
8 problem. If you could enlarge that section for me to read the whole
9 paragraph. I managed to read only one or two rows. If I am allowed to
10 read the whole paragraph, please.
11 The top portion refers to that, yes. Can we scroll back to the
12 signature for me to take a look at it?
13 This signature is somebody else's. Could be Milovan Lelik in my
14 opinion. He was deputy commander. I do believe that this is his
16 Q. And would it be common for the deputy commander to sign for the
17 commander on reports, on daily reports of activities in the area of
19 A. If the commander was absent, I presume, yes, that he would.
20 Q. Okay. And do you recognise the first portion as being a
21 description of the event that you described yesterday, although it seems
22 that there's some differences with respect to the makes of the cars.
23 A. This is most probably a report of the Rogatica Brigades
24 descripting one killed soldier. On that occasion, one was severely
25 wounded, later died, and one was killed outright. The Lada vehicle
1 carried men of the Visegrad Brigade and most probably the Visegrad
2 Brigades prepared a report on their killing. In the Rogatica Brigade, we
3 have a report of one killed and several severely or lightly wounded. In
4 my vehicle, one was killed, and one was severely wounded, and that was a
5 car belonging to Rogatica Brigade. The Lada Niva car was -- belonged to
6 Visegrad Brigade. Goran Zecevic was killed and another soldier was
7 wounded. This is most probably referring to the Rogatica Brigade's
8 report. If we were to take a look at the Visegrad Brigade report of the
9 same date, then they most probably would have reported one killed and one
10 severely wounded in that car that belonged to them.
11 Q. Okay. But you do recognise the signature of the deputy commander
12 at the bottom of the report from the 27th of June?
13 A. I do believe that I can make out the word "for" in front of the
14 word "commander," so it's on behalf of the commander somebody else signed
15 this document. We could enlarge and take a look at it to corroborate.
16 When it says "for the commander," this means that somebody who is
17 authorised to do so did it on behalf of the commander, and it states
18 here "for the commander."
19 Q. Okay. And when you did -- when we did have it enlarged, and you
20 looked at the signature, you said that you recognised it as the deputy
21 commander, a person by the name of Lelik. Is that correct?
22 A. Lelik. It resembles his signature. I cannot guarantee you
23 100 per cent, but it is a similar signature to his, but I cannot
24 guarantee it 100 per cent.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, given that, I simply ask that it be
1 marked for identification at this stage.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P219 marked for identification, Your
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Sir, the next document that I'm going to ask you to look at is a
7 report issued by Commander Kusic on the 13th of June, 1992, and it is
8 0642-9681 to 9682.
9 While that's being called up, let me just identify it for the
10 record. It's a regular operations report for the Army of Serbian
11 republic of BH, SRK
12 dated the 13th of June, 1992, and sent to the command of the SRK
13 Now, directing your attention to page 2 in the B/C/S version, the
14 document again indicates it's from Commander Kusic. Do you recognise the
15 hand-writing of the person who signed for Kusic in this case?
16 A. I believe that it was signed on behalf of the commander. This is
17 not Rajko Kusic's signature.
18 Q. Would you recognise Kusic's hand-writing?
19 A. I think I would.
20 Q. Now, going to the first paragraph, it states -- I'll ask if that
21 can be shown to the witness.
22 "There were no major enemy activity this is our municipality,
23 That is to say, in our brigade's zone of responsibility, in the Kopito
24 Sector (Visegrad municipality), an enemy sabotage-terrorist group, which
25 Was probably 10 to 15 men strong, attacked houses in the village and
1 Torched a barn and a house. One member of our forces in Visegrad was
3 And then directing your attention to ten lines from the bottom of
4 The page, the report states:
5 "A part of the company from Rogatica controls and secures the
6 Rogatica-Gorazde access. A part of the units from Borike controls and
7 Secures the Sjemec-Borike-Rogatica access, and that one squad is engaged
8 in laying mines in the Percin sector and the general sector of Sjemec.
9 Does the information in that report agree with your recollection
10 of what was happening in your zone of responsibility on the 13th of June,
12 A. Yes. We up until that time was securing the Sjemecko Polje area,
13 We received attacks. That our responsibility to provide security up to
14 Sjemec, that section, and there was a ramp by the road in the Sjemecko
15 Polje, in the direction of Visegrad. We were responsible, the Rogatica
16 Brigade, I mean, that area until Sjemec Polje.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that this time
18 this document be marked for identification.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P220 marked for identification, Your
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. Sir, there's just two more of these documents I want to show you.
24 I want to show you the report that was generated on the 14th by
25 Commander Kusic. That is ERN 0642-9683. Again, I'll identify it for the
1 record. It's a regular operations report from the Army of Republika
2 Srpska, Rogatica Brigade, reference number 1-101/92, Borike, dated the
3 14th of June, 1992, and sent to the Command of the Sarajevo-Romanija
5 Now, directing your attention to page 2 in the B/C/S version, the
6 document indicates it is from Commander Kusic again, and again, I believe
7 we have a situation where it's signed for Kusic by one of his
8 subordinates, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recognise the stamp or the seal as the one that was in use
11 during this period?
12 A. This seal was used, yes.
13 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the first paragraph, and
14 it states:
15 The enemy operated in several places by infiltrating sabotage and
16 terrorist groups. Enemy activities continue being more pronounced in the
17 area of Visegrad municipality in Kopito, Gornja Lijeske, Kocarin. Three
18 soldiers from Visegrad were killed in yesterday's attacks by enemy
19 sabotage groups. Enemy actions in the town of Rogatica are increasing.
20 Fire was opened at the column of members of the Serbian Army going from
21 Gorazde toward Sokolac."
22 When it refers to three soldiers from Visegrad, is that the
23 incident that you were testifying to yesterday when you talked about
24 Tripkovic being killed?
25 A. I think so. It does correspond to the location between Kopito
1 And Gornja Lijeske.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that this be marked for
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and we have to take the break now. Before
5 We take the break, let me just deal with two matters.
6 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honour. This would be
7 Exhibit P221 marked for identification.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yesterday, I said I would give a ruling in
9 relation to MLD15. MLD15 is not to be recalled before Monday the 2nd of
10 February. And in relation to the expert witnesses, the Defence is to
11 disclose the full statements and/or reports of the six experts no later
12 than Monday, the 26th of January, and the Prosecution is to respond by
13 Friday the 13th of February. We are adjourned.
14 MR. IVETIC: One clarification, Your Honour, as to MLD15, I
15 Presume that that's going to be VWS recalling him as the Defence, he's
16 not supposed to have contact in that regard. Is that what I can report
17 to VWS?
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. VWS will be informed. We're adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Sir, just one more document I want you to take a look at. It's
24 ERN 0642-9685, and again, this is a report of your Commander Kusic giving
25 A report of the events of the 15th of June, 1992.
1 While it being called up, the title of the report is regular
2 Report from the Army of Republika Srpska, SRK, Rogatica Brigade,
3 Reference number 01-102/92, Borike, dated 15 June 1992, and sent to the
4 Command of the SRK
5 Again, if we could go to the bottom of the signature -- the
6 Signature line, and again, do you recognise the seal of your unit, and do
7 You recognise the hand-writing of the person who signed this report?
8 A. It is not that clearly visible, I mean, the seal, but I can see
9 That it was the Brigade seal, and it's also signed by the deputy
10 commander of the brigade.
11 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go to the first paragraph of this report
12 And just read one line from it. It says:
13 "There was no signature enemy activity in the brigade's zone of
15 And then the rest of the report summarises different training
16 activities that are ongoing and gives an account of the military stores,
17 ammunitions that were in possession of the unit. Do you recall around
18 This period of time that there were training activities for the unit? I
19 Think the report mentions some trainers coming from the Republic of
21 A. I don't know what was going on at Rogatica, but at Borike, no.
22 Rogatica Brigade held 50 kilometers of territory in diameter, but at
23 Borike, at the time there were no instructors on the 15th, 16th of June,
24 et cetera.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that this be
1 Marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P222 marked for identification, Your
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. Sir, can you just give us some idea, when reports are issued, how
7 Long after an event are they generated? It seems that some of these
8 Reports are referring to events that happened on the same day, some the
9 day before. How long did it usually take for reports to be generated?
10 A. I did not generate any, so I don't know. I did not prepare any
11 reports. We were an army -- an emerging army, army being built. Our
12 mobilization rate was 105, so all men, why 105 per cent? Because people
13 who would not otherwise be mobilised were rounded up, all the men, 60, 70
14 years of age, but all of them were the army.
15 Q. Sir, there's another witness that's due to testify after you.
16 I'd ask if you could just answer my questions, yes or no, or the briefest
17 explanation possible, Mr. Ivetic will have an opportunity to ask you some
18 additional questions after I do.
19 We now have three reports from your Commander Kusic, the 13th,
20 the 14th, and the 15th. None of those reports mentioned a blocked road,
21 do they?
22 A. Well, if somebody is killed and the road is impossible, that means
23 it is blocked. As I've mentioned, on the 27th of June the road was
24 blockaded by the felled tree trunks, but in those events, the road was
25 not blockaded. In this 10-kilometer stretch of road when somebody is
1 killed, it is presumed that the road is blocked. Nobody wants to travel
2 along it before it's mopped up and cleared. Depending on where the
3 military was at a certain point, if the military is to go to Sjemec, this
4 was done by the Gorazde Brigade, and up to Sjemec was held by the
5 Visegrad Brigade, and when there is a killing, then the road is shut down
6 and blocked.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Sir, there's no mention in any of the reports on the 13th, 14th,
10 or 15th that communications have been interrupted, is there?
11 A. Well, if you took the reports of the Visegrad Brigade, maybe they
12 would be mentioned. In Rogatica, there was no such things. The Rogatica
13 Brigade personnel did not have communication with Visegrad. There was no
14 way they could have communicated through radio because in Commander
15 Tripkovic's vehicle, the radio was destroyed, and we were tasked to
16 inform the people at Kopito to tell them what had happened through the
17 Rogatica Brigade, but those people belonged to the Visegrad Brigade who
18 were at Kopito, Territorial Defence, military, and police, they had no
19 communication with Visegrad, and so they phoned Rogatica Brigade and
20 instructed somebody from Rogatica Brigade to go over there, contact them,
21 and tell them what was to be done later on.
22 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified to when you arrived in Kopito seeing
23 a group of 40 to 50 men involved in the operation, and then you
24 testified, and I'm going to quote from your statement where you say it a
25 bit more succinctly. In paragraph 2 of your statement, you say:
1 "As earlier agreed, the campaign to secure Kopito-Visegrad road
2 started on June 15th, 1992
3 underway towards Visegrad, I returned to Rogatica and informed the
4 command of Rogatica that I have fulfilled my missions."
5 Sir, in the reports that we have before us, the 13th, 14th, and
6 15th, there's no mention at all of the campaign that you've testified
7 about, is there?
8 A. I'm telling you that that was in the Visegrad Brigade. The one we
9 saw was the Rogatica Brigade report. Rogatica Brigade personnel did not
10 take part in that actio, and this is why it's not being reported.
11 Rogatica -- Rogatica Brigade's area of responsibility ended at Sjemec.
12 Beyond that was the zone of responsibility of Visegrad, and it wasn't in
13 our brigade's repose because we did not do anything from Sjemec to
14 Kopito. It was the other brigade.
15 Q. Tripkovic was killed in the zone of responsibility of the Visegrad
16 Brigade, correct?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Yet we see that reported, correct?
19 A. But it was indicated that he was from Visegrad Brigade. Well, it
20 is alarming when a commander is killed. In the previous report, it was
21 mentioned that in the Visegrad Brigade's zone of responsibility three
22 members were killed.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the witness's prior
24 statement be tendered -- or I tender it. It's Y018-2196.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P223, Your Honours.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Sir, I have just a few more questions for you. The Defence of
4 Milan Lukic asked for safe conduct for you to come and testify, and in
5 their submission on this, they state, and I quote:
6 "The witness has expressed serious concerns ..."
7 And that's why they requested safe conduct. The serious concerns
8 you had were related to activities that -- activities that your brigade
9 engaged in might cause you to be arrested. Is that not correct?
10 A. There was discontinued interpretation. I heard a segment in
11 English and not in my language. Could you repeat your question, please.
12 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... relevant to the
13 testimony that the witness has given, and so I would object to the
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I see that it could be relevant, Mr. Ivetic.
16 Please repeat the question.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Sir, I'll repeat the question now for you. The reason you asked
19 for safe conduct to come here is that you were afraid that you might be
20 arrested because of the activities of the unit that you were a member of.
21 Is that not correct?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In fact, two members of your unit, Radislav Lubinac [phoen], also
24 known as Pano, and Dragoje Pajunovic [phoen], also known as Spiro,
25 they've already been convicted by the State Court of Bosnia. Is that not
2 A. I don't know the other family name. I never heard of
3 Drago Pajunovic in Rogatica. As for the former person, that was Lubinac,
4 his family name. And what about Pano, I don't know anything of their
5 being convicted. They weren't in my battalion. I'm telling you, I was
6 at Borike and was in charge of that section between Zepa and Sjemec, in
7 that area towards Zepa.
8 Q. I want to show you one last report -- or this is actually an order
9 by your commander, Rajko Kusic.
10 MR. GROOME: And I ask that 0529-4778 be called up.
11 Q. My initial question to you is, when it comes up on the screen, is
12 Whether or not you recognise the hand-writing as that of your commander
13 It's a hand-written -- I'm sorry. Have I given you the wrong -- can I
14 just check the ...
15 A. This is not hand-written.
16 Q. Yes, you're correct. That's not the -- I'm sorry. It's
17 0107-1284. My apologies on the wrong number. This was an order that was
18 recovered from the Kosara military barracks, in Banja Luka in June of
19 2006. Do you recognise the hand-writing of your superior, Rajko Kusic?
20 A. I think that this is not his signature. I'm not 100 per cent
21 Sure, but I think it is not his.
22 Q. Well, let me read the order to you and ask you whether you have
23 heard of this order.
24 "No one has the right to stop military action.
25 "There are to be no negotiations or ultimatums.
1 "Any citizen who surrenders and brings weapons shall be
2 Protected. Those who do not surrender and are disloyal will be
3 persecuted and killed.
4 "The bringing of Muslims into Serbian villages or to our military
5 positions for negotiations are hereby forbidden.
6 "Make it known that anyone who does not return their weapons and
7 does not surrender will be killed."
8 Sir, I put it to you that you asked for safe passage here because
9 you are one of the men who carried out this order of your superior, Rajko
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object. This was already said --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Yes.
13 MR. IVETIC: The witness obviously doesn't recognise the
14 hand-writing. There is no signature. There is no seal. They were
15 supposed to take the Prosecutor at his word that this is a document, an
16 official document. Who knows who wrote this. Is this what this trial is
17 stooping to, that we're turning in hand-written sheets of paper with no
18 seal, no title, no official letterhead, no nothing?
19 MR. GROOME: I haven't sought to tender it, Your Honour.
20 MR. IVETIC: But the question is based upon it.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the question that Mr. Ivetic is raising is
22 whether the document is of a kind and a provenance that would warrant a
23 question being asked.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, as I said in my question to the
25 witness, it was recovered from the military barracks of the VRS. I will
1 be producing the documentation regarding its provenance. The witness --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It seems to me that the question could be put
3 even without the document. You could formulate the question without the
4 aid of the document and ask the witness if he knows of any such order and
5 whether it might have related to him.
6 MR. GROOME: I'll do that, Your Honour. Can I ask that it be
7 marked for identification?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 224 marked for identification, Your
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Sir, what I'm putting to you is that the reason that you
13 requested safe passage here is because you were involved in activity
14 which you believe makes you vulnerable to prosecution for war crimes.
15 That's what I'm putting to you. Now I ask for your response to that. Is
16 that why you sought safe passage?
17 A. No. I've never seen this document, nor did I ever hear this
18 order. I never heard this order, nor did anyone ever give me an order
19 like this. It wasn't because of that. I told you clearly at first why
20 this was, and then later I said that I sought no form of protection
21 whatsoever or anything like that. I have no reason to get upset over
22 anything at all. If I had a reason to worry, I wouldn't be here to begin
24 Q. Sir, are you saying that you never requested safe passage to come
25 and testify here? Is that your evidence?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think we can take it any further, and
2 you should be bringing your cross-examination to a close now. You have
3 used almost twice the time allotted or used by Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. GROOME: Just a couple more questions, Your Honour.
5 Q. Sir, this past June, the 2nd of June, 2008, you were convicted of
6 the crime of slander in the court of Obrenovac. Is that not correct?
7 A. This hasn't taken effect yet. This was a minor thing started by
8 a minor person, but the trial was never brought to an end. I was never
9 made criminally responsible for anything in my life. This is a private
10 suit brought against me by the association of Obrenovac's artisans.
11 There was never really a final judgement on that or anything like that,
12 and I have not been convicted.
13 Q. Let me show you the judgement of the trial court.
14 MR. GROOME: Could I call up 0644-5202. This is the judgement
15 entered on the 2nd of June, 2008.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and again, this is a situation
18 where, again, the judgement is not final. They're presenting a document
19 that is still in the pending process, so just so that's on the record and
20 that's understood.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, have a seat, and you can make your
22 submissions on it. Let us see the document, please.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Sir, while it's being called up, I'm going to read you a portion
25 of the document, and then we can -- you can see it in its original form.
1 It says:
2 "On the 2nd of June, 2008, adopted and made public the following
3 judgement: The accused Goran Djeric - for personal information, see file
4 - is guilty because on the 27th of November, 2006, in Obrenovac, during
5 the opening of the information business centre in front of approximately
6 30 people, he uttered several false claims, thus tarnishing the honour
7 and reputation of the plaintiff who is the secretary of the Association
8 of Obrenovac Entrepreneurs Obrenovac entrepreneurs by saying that the
9 plaintiff 'is taking 5 percent form people he finds employment for,' that
10 'he was determining his own salary,' and that 'he had usurped the
11 association,' thereby committing the crime of slander under Article 171,
12 paragraph 1, of the Criminal Code."
13 MR. GROOME: There seems to be some difficulty calling up the
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm advised it's not in e-court, but let
16 us hear the answer to the question and then any submissions that Mr.
17 Ivetic has, he may make.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Sir, do you deny that you were convicted of this crime for
20 uttering false statements?
21 A. I'm telling you that I never got this sentence. Once I do, I
22 will lodge a complaint with the district prosecutor. Perhaps I need to
23 clarify this. I said this as a member of the executive board of that
24 very association, that the secretary was making our working conditions
25 impossible. You should look at that, too, but now that you have this,
1 maybe you should have from the Obrenovac Prosecutor -- my apologies,
2 but --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I just want to find out from Mr. Ivetic, the
4 passage that was read by counsel, it said that he is guilty. Does that
5 in the law -- and I know you're familiar with it and you're an officer of
6 the court, so we will take your word, does that mean that he's guilty or
7 that he's still charged? Is the charge still pending?
8 MR. IVETIC: It's my understanding that this is -- I don't have
9 the original B/C/S in front of me, but it's my understanding that this is
10 a transcript. It's not a judgement as was represented by Mr. Groome. I
11 defer to Mr. Cepic who has much more practice in the region and in the
12 jurisdiction as to what the precise legal meaning it is, but I understand
13 it means it's still pending until it becomes a final binding judgement.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: If I may assist Your Honour, with your leave, it is
16 not in-power document. This is just a record. It must be judgement in
17 hard copy, which the accused and his Defence counsel received by post and
18 also OTP, and after the decision, after they receive decision, they have
19 eight days in this case, because this is the lowest level case, for
20 appeal, and it is not in power. It is not decision in power, definitely.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: So you're saying it's not a final decision of
22 the Court?
23 MR. CEPIC: No.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: No?
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, prior to my examination, I gave the
3 court usher the original copy to help assist with the e-court. Could I
4 ask that the witness be shown -- oh, we have it up there now. So Mr. --
5 I guess I'm confused. I'm reading from the document, which says it's a
6 judgement, which says he's guilty of a particular crime, but that's not
7 the case.
8 MR. CEPIC: And if I may assist Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic. We'll hear you.
10 MR. CEPIC: I apologise for interrupting, but just if I may
11 assist related to documents in the judgements for my country. Most of
12 you are familiar that we need the stamp for almost each document in our
13 law system, so a judgement must have the stamps, special stamps that it
14 is in power.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: By in power, you mean that it is enforced?
16 MR. CEPIC: Enforced. Yes, exactly. Precisely. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: So even though it says -- where is this section,
18 Mr. Groome, that says he's guilty?
19 MR. GROOME: This is the fourth page --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Groome, please.
21 MR. GROOME: I believe this is the fourth page, one of the prior
22 pages, but here we can clearly see, Your Honour, "judgement," and in
23 bold, "is guilty."
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MR. GROOME: It's from the court in Obrenovac, through it a
1 request for assistance of the government of Serbia. What is the legal
2 effect -- if I might ask Mr. Cepic, what is the legal effect of this
3 document if it's -- I appreciate that he may have the right to appeal
4 this judgement, but it seems that a trial court has entered a finding of
6 MR. CEPIC: This is the base -- this record is the base for the
7 filing of the judgement in the hard copy. This is not a proper form.
8 This is just a record from the trial. After the trial is completed, the
9 judges is in charge to file the judgement in the record. After that
10 completion, he must file a hard copy of judgement, which will be
11 delivered to the parties. This is just the first step in procedure.
12 After -- this is the base for the filing in hard copy, this record of the
13 trial. After this record -- after he files the hard copy of the
14 judgement, he must deliver to the parties, and the parties, when they
15 receive that hard copy, they have opportunity to file appeal in eight
16 days. If they do not file appeal in that period of time, the judgement
17 will be enforced.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what you're saying, then, it's only a
19 procedural step --
20 MR. CEPIC: Exactly.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- that stands between what we see here and a
22 final guilty verdict.
23 MR. CEPIC: Exactly, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Judge David.
25 JUDGE DAVID: Mr. Cepic, from the viewpoint of Article 171,
1 paragraph 1, of -- I imagine KZ is the Criminal Penal Code, is a code of
3 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, we have continental law system, and it
4 is the criminal law procedure which allows to file the judgement just on
5 the record, and when they filed this judgement, they invite the party,
6 and they read the verdict in the courtroom, but the verdict is not in
7 power. After reading in the public announcement, they must deliver that
8 in hard copy to the parties with explanation of decision.
9 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, but what I am asking you is, from the legal
10 implications of the judgement in itself as it stands now presented here,
11 what will happen - first question - if the judgement is not sealed with
12 the stamps?
13 MR. CEPIC: It couldn't be in power.
14 JUDGE DAVID: But nevertheless, it's a legal decision of the
15 court? It's a legal decision of the court or not?
16 MR. CEPIC: It is a decision, but it is quite complicated
17 procedure, maybe, from some other points of view. It is just the first
18 step in procedure. I'll try to make it as simple as I could. When we
19 completed the trial procedure, the Trial Chamber rendered a decision, and
20 they already rendered a decision in the transcript. After they render a
21 decision, we must wait - according to law is just 8 or 15 days, but in
22 the practices, a couple months - for the hard copy of decision, and the
23 hard copy of decision could be just in power with those stamps.
24 JUDGE DAVID: Thank you very much. That is very clear, then,
25 that legally has all the power subjected to the procedure of stamping or
1 recording in getting the hard copies .
2 MR. CEPIC: Exactly, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE DAVID: Yes, thank you.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I don't think we should spend any
5 more time on this. I thank you very much, Mr. Cepic.
6 Mr. Ivetic, in re-examination or at a later stage if you want to
7 clarify the matter, you may do so, but --
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no further questions. If I
9 could just tender that document at this stage.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 225, Your Honours.
12 MR. GROOME: Thank you, sir.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you wanted to say something because you
14 are going to be -- yes, go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies. I do have to say
16 this for my own sake. The Prosecutor uses this document now. The
17 Prosecution in Obrenovac filed charges against the Secretary of the
18 Association, and I was a witness there. When I get a copy of this
19 sentence, it's appealable by me with the district court. They will then
20 decide whether I'm guilty or not, and there won't be a verdict before
21 then. It might take a year or two. Based on evidence provided by
22 witnesses, something was - and you should find this easy to check - the
23 Prosecutor in Obrenovac is organising proceedings against Mr. Zaric
24 [phoen], and I'm a witness in that case. That should be easy enough to
25 check, and it should be easy enough for you to check that at no point
1 throughout these proceedings did I utter a lie or anything like that.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
3 MR. IVETIC: It's ERN 0644-6670. It's the original picture -- or
4 the picture that was tendered of several persons in uniforms. The copy
5 that was entered into evidence cuts off the part that I want to focus in
6 on, so we have to return to the original as tendered by the Office of the
8 Q. And sir, when we get this photograph, first of all, I'd ask that
9 we try and centre and zoom in on the man on the second photograph, on the
10 bottom, the man sitting or squatting in the front with sunglasses, and if
11 -- that should be fine, and if I could direct your attention, sir, to the
12 patch or emblem on the shoulder, and I ask you if -- can you make out the
13 lettering across the top of that patch, or does it resemble anything that
14 you are familiar with, that lettering, that sort of half-arc with some
15 lettering that appears to be in Cyrillic?
16 A. It should read "police" on the left as I explained. This is
17 probably a Serbian coat of arms.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Mr. Djeric, for coming here to testify.
19 On behalf of Milan Lukic and his Defence team, I thank you.
20 I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
22 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, the next witness.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we at this time don't have another
1 witness in The Hague
2 arrive, but the flight was cancelled due to bad weather, and the latest
3 from VWS says she will not arrive at Amsterdam airport until 10.30
4 tomorrow morning, which presents us with a difficulty in that --
5 obviously that's -- we have court in the morning tomorrow, I believe,
6 according to the schedule, and therefore I cannot present that witness
7 until having proofed her, and then I would have to either present her in
8 the afternoon, which I don't know if we have time in court then, or leave
9 her for the next available court date, which I believe would be Monday,
10 according to the schedule, in the afternoon, and that's -- that's Ms.
11 Vasiljevic, the next witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Her flight was cancelled due to bad weather, and
13 you say she will arrive at Schipol 10.30 tomorrow morning?
14 MR. IVETIC: 10.30 tomorrow morning according to VWS is when she
15 would arrive in Schipol. It's my understanding then obviously she'd have
16 to travel here, and they have the orientation, which at least with this
17 batch of witness took about an hour when they received in the evening
18 before they were released into the hotel, I guess, or whatever
19 terminology there is. I don't know the specifics of what happens between
20 VWS and the witnesses at that juncture since I'm not allowed access to
21 the witnesses until after that point.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, clearly it's not the fault of the Defence
23 that there is bad weather in Sarajevo
25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber has been trying to make the best of
2 the situation. If the witness is only able to arrive at the airport at
3 10.30 tomorrow, I am told by the court deputy she will not be here at the
4 Tribunal before 12 noon
5 It does not appear to me that it is practicable to schedule a
6 sitting for tomorrow in the circumstances, regrettably. Mr. Ivetic?
7 MR. IVETIC: Is the afternoon not available? I haven't been able
8 to check whether the afternoon the available or not.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, the afternoon is not available. We'll then
10 have to sit on Monday as scheduled, and we would hear her first.
11 MR. IVETIC: That is correct.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: So in the circumstances, we are adjourned
13 until --
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I apologise. One thing. I had
15 forgotten to tender the last exhibit, ERN 0644-6670, the picture which I
16 feel I ought to tender because the portion that was admitted into
17 evidence by the Prosecution cuts off the patch that the gentleman
18 testified about, so I'd ask for that to be tendered into evidence if
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 1D 98, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, you had something to say?
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it can wait until Monday. I did want
24 to address the Chamber on a legal point regarding this witness. If the
25 Chamber wants to make some use of the time today, I'm happy to do it now.
1 It would take 5 minutes, or I can do it prior to the witness's testimony
2 on Monday.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean by a legal point because this
4 is not the time for submissions.
5 MR. GROOME: No, no, but it has to do with my impeaching her with
6 the statement of another. It was the issue that came up with MLD10
7 yesterday, and the same issue is arising with this witness. I failed to,
8 I think, fully explain my position yesterday and wanted to see if I could
9 do a better job of it today because it is an issue that arises with this
10 particular witness, but I'm happy to do it Monday if the Chamber would
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let us hear you. Let us hear you.
13 MR. GROOME: This has to do with the use of the other statement,
14 when I think it's appropriate to use the statement of another witness and
15 when it's not, and I think that perhaps the best way that I can explain
16 this is just by taking kind of a rudimentary theoretical example.
17 So let's say for some reason it became important to determine
18 what colour sweater the witness wore yesterday, and statements were taken
19 of you, Judge Robinson, and you state that it was a black sweater, and a
20 statement was taken of you, Judge David, you described the sweater as
21 being brown.
22 Now, two distinctly factual situations arise during the taking of
23 evidence about the colour of the sweater, and the factual difference has
24 important implications for how a witness might be examined.
25 The first situation would be when you, Judge Robinson, would be
1 called to give evidence, consisting with your statement, you testified
2 that the sweater is black. It would be improper to introduce on your
3 cross-examination the statement of Judge David to establish that the
4 sweater was not black but was brown. The Chamber I believe has correctly
5 ruled that way in this trial, and that is the situation Mr. Ivetic
6 referred to yesterday when he spoke about VG-64. In that case, the
7 Defence sought to introduce the statement of her husband because it
8 contradicted her. That is impermissible. If a party wants the benefit
9 of Judge David's observations, that party should call Judge David as a
11 But there is another very different situation that can arise in a
12 trial about the colour of the sweater. What if Judge Van Den Wyngaert
13 were called to testify and her testimony was, I was not here yesterday,
14 but Judge David told me that the witness wore a red sweater. It must be
15 permissible to put Judge David's statement on the matter to Judge Van Den
16 Wyngaert and ask whether or not she might be mistaken in her recollection
17 of what Judge David said, mistaken because the person she is testifying
18 as having said the sweater was red has in a sworn statement said the
19 sweater was brown.
20 With this next witness, she will be testifying to what her
21 husband told her about the treatment -- his treatment of Zehra Turjacanin
22 after the Bikavac fire. Dr. Vasiljevic, now deceased, gave sworn
23 testimony before this Tribunal in 2001 where he described what happened
24 when he treated Ms. Turjacanin. If she claims that her husband told her
25 something different than his sworn account here, I must be able to put to
1 her his testimony before the Tribunal and ask her whether or not she's
3 She's going to now sit in the very same seat her husband did when
4 he testified about the very things she will give -- that he testified
5 about, but she will give hearsay evidence about it. I believe the
6 principles underlying the best evidence rule and the impeachment of
7 witnesses both require that I be permitted to put the testimony of her
8 husband, Dr. Vasiljevic, to her should she testify about something
10 I'd ask the Chamber to consider that, perhaps, over the weekend.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and Mr. Ivetic will also consider it.
12 MR. IVETIC: Consider -- do you require a submission, or -- I
13 don't know.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you want to make a submission now on that?
15 MR. IVETIC: I could do it -- I'd rather sit there and think
16 about it for a while because I'm somewhat confused by it, especially
17 given what I've read -- prior submissions in this case by Mr. Groome
18 prior to my involvement in this case that seem opposite to what he's now
19 proposing, but I'd like to have time to review that and make sure that my
20 submissions are accurate and correctly spelled forth.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Consider it over the weekend.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are adjourned until Monday at 2.15.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.56 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of
1 January, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.