1 Thursday, 22 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me give three decisions. Let us move to
6 private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Page 4323 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit. And you may begin, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD1
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, I'll have to call you MLD1. As you
15 know, my name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the attorneys for the accused
17 from disclosure. Towards that end, if I could have the court usher's
18 assistance, I'd like to hand you a pseudonym sheet and ask you to take a
19 look at that, sir. When you receive that from the court usher, I would
20 ask you to review the same and verify that the information as to your
21 identity contained therein is true and accurate, and then let me know.
22 Then if I can have you, sir, please sign that document so that I
23 can ask for it to be admitted under seal so that that information will
24 not be available to the public.
25 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I would then move for this
1 document once signed to be submitted under the next available 1D exhibit
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D100, Your Honours, under seal.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we could begin with the part of your
7 testimony. If you could please state for the record, what is your ethnic
8 and religious affiliation?
9 A. Bosnian Muslim. I'm a Bosniak of the Muslim faith.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. And also for the record, without revealing the
11 actual address where you live or any other information that might reveal
12 your identity, could you tell us generally which city and state you
13 currently reside in?
14 A. Bosnia
15 Q. And I apologise for the pause. We have to wait for the
16 translation and the transcript, so if I pause at any time it's for that,
17 and you need not pay any heed.
18 Now, for the record could you also tell us if in fact you lived
19 in this location, that is the environs of Sarajevo, in 1992 or if you
20 lived elsewhere?
21 A. No, I lived in Visegrad [Realtime transcript read in error,
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. IVETIC: And Your Honours, I believe that line 20 should be
25 "Visegrad" rather than "Vlad," for the transcript.
1 Q. Now, sir, again, without telling us anything about yourself that
2 could reveal your identity - you are testifying here as a protected
3 witness at your request - could you please tell us the reasons behind
4 your seeking protective measures to testify for the Defence of Milan
6 A. Because of my safety, because nothing nice is being said about
7 Milan Lukic about the -- among the Muslims, so if they found out what I'm
8 doing now, it would not be good for me. I have come to say what I know,
9 and looking around and watching television and knowing what he is being
10 charged with, I would like to say what I know about this time that I
11 spent some time there.
12 MR. IVETIC: And I apologise, Your Honours. It looks like some
13 portion of what he has said has not come into the transcript. He
14 mentioned dates. Perhaps we'll -- that's perhaps easier corrected by me
15 asking a follow-up question instead of trying to recollect it.
16 Q. Sir, you mentioned some dates and a time-period that you spent
17 with Milan
18 has not -- that portion of your response has not made it into the
19 official transcript.
20 A. From the 4th to the 10th of June.
21 Q. Okay. And, now, with respect to -- you indicated nothing nice is
22 being said about Lukic among the Muslims. Do you have any specific
23 examples or specific experiences wherein you have personal or firsthand
24 knowledge of what kinds of things are being said about Milan Lukic or his
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, objection as to relevance.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, as I recall, the Trial Chamber back - I
4 can't remember what date it was - advised that we should definitely bring
5 to the Court's attention any factors we have of outside pressures on
6 witnesses or outside pressures in the communities that the witnesses come
7 from that would create difficulty for them to come to testify, and I
8 believe that this witness has some knowledge of general threats made as
9 to witnesses or anyone who would be willing to come forward to testify in
10 these proceedings for the Defence of Milan Lukic, and with that I just
11 ask if he does. Depending on his answer, obviously it may not -- it may
12 or may not advance the matter any further, but I'm just complying with
13 the directive that I bring any such matters to the Court's attention so
14 they have an overall picture of the scenario under which the Defence is
15 proceeding in the field, trying to find witnesses or trying to obtain the
16 attendance of witnesses.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I don't see it as being very relevant,
18 probably only marginally so. Let's hear the witness's answer. Do you
19 remember the question?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you remember the question that was asked?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why I'm seeking protective
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not it. I'll just ask counsel to repeat
25 it very succinctly.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. The question I had, sir, is as a follow-up to you telling us why
3 you had requested protective measures, is there anything that you
4 personally saw or experienced that solidified your desire to have
5 protective measures as to the manner in which persons -- outside persons
6 were talking about Milan Lukic and/or his Defence. I just caution you,
7 when my microphone is on, please don't speak so your voice does not go
8 out on the public transmission.
9 A. Yes, in the area where I'm living now, I was -- I was in the
10 company of people of my faith, Muslims, if you know what I'm saying, and
11 for example, there was stories when they -- when they hear something nice
12 about Milan Lukic, they don't like to hear it. They would be able to
13 liquidate that person or maybe attack the children, something like that.
14 I was in the company of such people --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you very much.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and they had said -- I mean,
17 that's why I asked to have protective measures.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. Please move on to another
19 topic now.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if we could move into private session
21 to protect the identity of the witness. I have some matters relating to
22 his background and residence.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes
24 [Private session]
11 Page 4329 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, what is the evidence that you intend
15 to lead in relation to this?
16 MR. IVETIC: The witness in general or --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, his -- oh, his girlfriend.
18 MR. IVETIC: Correct, the identity of the girlfriend might reveal
19 his identity is the --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. Do you have something more specific to lead
21 in relation to her.
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes, the events -- the events that the witness
23 has knowledge of experience with the girlfriend. She's -- throughout the
24 story -- when I interviewed the witness, throughout the story he kept
25 repeating her name, so the point was if he repeats her name, if someone
1 knows the relationship between them, they can identify the protected
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. I was wondering the about the
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The evidence that you have to lead in relation
7 to her is relevant to these proceedings.
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes. She was also a witness to the -- she
9 accompanied the witness in the events that he is to testify about.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Let's hear it.
11 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Thank you.
12 Q. First of all, just a few general questions about Visegrad and the
13 time-period that you mentioned. Can you describe for us the general
14 situation in Visegrad when the Uzice Corps came to that city, and if you
15 recall the time-period, if you could state that as well.
16 A. Well, the situation was not good. There was shooting. You could
17 hear shooting. It was possible to be arrested. The situation was
18 unstable. It was war. You couldn't go where you wanted and so on.
19 Q. And upon the withdrawal of the Uzice Corps, who was in control of
20 the municipality of Visegrad
21 A. After the withdrawal of the Uzice Corps, the civilian authorities
22 were in power.
23 Q. What ethnic group did the civilian authorities belong to?
24 A. They were Serbs.
25 Q. And was there a particular political party?
1 A. The SDS
2 Q. With respect to the civilian authorities, do you recall who the
3 chief of the police or any of the commanders in the police force were
4 after the withdrawal of the Uzice Corps?
5 A. Tomic and -- I can't remember the names now. I know it's Tomic
6 and others. I mean, he was the person considered to be in charge.
7 Q. And with respect to -- prior to 1992, did you know a man named
9 A. No, I didn't know him before that as I mentioned.
10 Q. And you said you didn't know him before that date that you'd
11 mentioned. Could you again tell us when it was that you first met or
12 encountered Milan Lukic and the circumstances of that first encounter
13 with Mr. Lukic?
14 A. I was in the apartment of my fiancee. Well, you know the person
15 that I mean. On the 4th of June, three uniformed persons came. Two were
16 not so tall, and one was tall, heavily built [as interpreted] with brown
17 hair, and they were checking our IDs, not only our IDs, but of everyone
18 in the building.
19 When they checked the personal ID cards and so on, the two
20 shorter guys said that they would need to take us somewhere, something
21 like the police, something like that, and then when this taller guy heard
22 that, he said that he also wanted to look at our documents, and that's
23 what he did, and he said that the documents were all right. There was
24 nothing disputable there. So then I asked those two shorter guys --
25 actually, he asked those two shorter guys to leave, to go outside, that
1 he needed to speak to us. So they did as he asked them. They went out.
2 Q. If I could back up, just -- you utilised the word in Bosnian
3 "krupan" to describe this individual. I don't see that it's necessarily
4 gone into the transcript correctly as it has been translated. Well, what
5 does "krupan" mean in the Bosnian dialect?
6 A. Tall.
7 MR. IVETIC: And I note, Your Honours, at page 11 line 9 it's in
8 the transcript as "heavily built," so I'd ask that be corrected.
9 Q. Now, if we get back to the encounter with these three uniformed
10 individuals at the apartment of your girlfriend, first of all, how were
11 these men attired that day? You said they were uniformed. What kind of
13 A. Blue police uniforms, militia uniforms [as interpreted].
14 MR. IVETIC: And, again, Your Honours, page 12, line 7, he said
15 blue uniforms, police uniforms with militia on the side. I see in the
16 transcript it says -- militia on the sleeve. It just says "militia
17 uniforms" in the transcript. I'd ask for that to be corrected.
18 Q. Do you recall what time of day, sir, these individuals arrived at
19 the apartment of your girlfriend?
20 A. Sometime in the morning.
21 Q. And if -- pardon me. Did you recognise any of the persons that
22 arrived that asked to check for your identification that day?
23 A. No, I did not recognise anyone.
24 Q. And what did you and/or your girlfriend do when these policemen
25 asked you to come down to the station with them? What was your reaction?
1 A. Well, we were horrified. By looking at her, I think my
2 girlfriend was scared even more than me. She started crying, and I felt
3 bad about her and about myself. When this tall guy saw that, he asked
4 the other two guys to leave so that he could have a word with us and so
5 that he could check whether our documents were in order. Luckily, they
6 followed his instructions. They left and waited outside the building.
7 Q. Did that individual, the taller individual who remained, did he
8 have any further communications with you, and in particular, did he
9 identify himself?
10 A. Yes. Yes, that's just what I was about to say. When the other
11 two men left, he introduced himself saying his name was Milan Lukic and
12 that he was just back from Switzerland
13 into this - what shall I call it - coalition against his will, that his
14 mother was sick and that's why he was now back in order to take her to
16 Q. And did he tell you anything else as to -- as regarding you and
17 your girlfriend, and did he give any instructions or advice?
18 A. He advised us not to go anywhere and told us to go to an
19 abandoned house not far from there. Once he had introduced himself and
20 once he had told us what he was there for, then I asked him whether he
21 could save us in any way or help us escape from Visegrad, you see,
22 because it wasn't safe. He said he would try but he would need some
24 Q. Did he at any point in time indicate why he was willing to assist
25 you in such a manner?
1 A. No, not really. I later realised that he knew my girlfriend. He
2 used to see her at work in this cafe where she worked. I realised at one
3 point that it wouldn't be a problem when he started getting into details,
4 and he helped me feel safer. To be perfectly honest, when someone saves
5 you, you are glad. One couldn't just leave town. One could get into
6 town but not leave. You needed these documents and those documents and a
7 lot of different documents. Some people will let you have them and some
8 people won't, and then I kept thinking to myself, He is a Serb after all,
9 and you know, I couldn't help thinking to myself, Will this work or not,
10 but what prevailed was my ambition to save my --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness probably means
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know, this weighed much more
14 heavily upon me among all the other suspicions that I had and everything.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Thank you. And you indicated that on the way to Uvac that Milan
17 Lukic went into details about knowing your girlfriend and that you felt
18 safer as a result. Did that occur on the same day that the three police
19 officers came to your home, or was that -- strike that.
20 Let me -- let me back up and try and short-circuit the
21 questioning somewhat. You indicated earlier that he told you to go to an
22 abandoned house that was nearby. Did you in fact go to that abandoned
24 A. Yes, we did. We spent three days there. We waited because he
25 said he would give us a hand and take us away, and we were waiting for
1 him to show up with the documents.
2 Q. Did Milan Lukic return as you had earlier agreed, and if so, what
3 date was that?
4 A. Yes. He was back three days later with his mother.
5 Nevertheless, he told us that he had been unable to provide the documents
6 for us. He only had documents for himself and his mother. He did,
7 however, bring some clothes for this girlfriend of mine, you know which
8 one, the sort of clothes worn by Serb women, if you get my meaning.
9 I don't think she could have been saved or taken anywhere else
10 because she would have been quite conspicuous in those broad trousers
11 normally worn by Muslim women.
12 Q. Could you explain for us briefly for those of us not familiar
13 with "dimije" what the difference between the Muslim "dimije" outfit and
14 the type of clothes that you identified as Serb clothes that Milan Lukic
15 brought for her?
16 A. The "dimije" outfit is something typically worn by Muslim women.
17 They are broad-based, and the Serbian skirt is a bit up here, but the
18 difference is huge, so you can tell when you see a Muslim woman wearing
19 Muslim clothes and a Serb woman wearing Serbian clothes. It's easy
20 enough to tell who is who.
21 Q. You had indicated that he had been unable -- that he'd been able
22 only to obtain permits for his mother and himself and not permits for you
23 and your girlfriend. What was discussed at that point in time? What was
24 the plan as to how the removal from Visegrad was to be accomplished at
25 that point in time, the removal of your girlfriend and yourself from
1 Visegrad at that point in time?
2 A. The plan was for her to put on this Serb uniform, which she did,
3 and for us to go as far as a bridge, just before the check-point that was
4 there on that road, and they checked people there. They checked people's
5 documents. He had bought her this uniform. My girlfriend put it on, and
6 we were off to Priboj, and then we stopped at this bridge. We all came
7 out there with the exception of his mother. This is a narrow bridge. He
8 took us across the bridge, took us another hundred metres further down
9 and said, Now we're in Serbia
10 the main road to Priboj one point, and they would be waiting for us
11 there, once he had crossed the check-point with the documents and
12 everything. So that's what we did. We reached the main road to Priboj
13 and Belgrade
14 We went on for about another kilometre, keeping to the right side
15 of the road because he said it would be easier for him to pick us up that
16 way and he would recognise us immediately. About a kilometre further
17 down the road, we found Milan Lukic there in the vehicle. He was waiting
18 for us already because he had crossed earlier on. He didn't linger at
19 any point along the road. He had the documents and all. So we got back
20 into the car, and we continued our journey to Belgrade.
21 Q. Thank you. And I'm looking back in the transcript. I may have
22 missed it, but did you mention the date when you set out in this manner
23 for Belgrade
24 A. The 7th.
25 Q. Could you describe for us if you had occasion to stop anywhere
1 along the way to Belgrade
2 A. We stopped once, no more than that, to refuel. We drank coffee.
3 But that was just a single stop.
4 Q. And did you eventually arrive in the city of Belgrade
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 Q. What time of day was it when you arrived in Belgrade?
7 A. Dusk, thereabouts. Afternoon, anyway.
8 Q. And when you arrived in Belgrade
9 and/or stayed?
10 A. I think it's called Bezanijska Kosa, so in a flat there, in that
11 area, a white brick building, a bit dull. It was on the second floor or
12 third floor of that building, the flat I mean. It's a flat of some
13 considerable size.
14 I remember there was a bar there, the sort of thing you find in a
15 pub, a counter, and in our room there was a conjugal bed with some black
16 leather on it, that was the dominant material, and a large terrace. I
17 remember that too. I think there's a view opening from that terrace onto
18 a large playground for kids, you know, or -- and a large parking-lot, and
19 this is roughly about what I remember. I can't remember anything more
20 specific than that.
21 Q. Were you advised at any time whose apartment this was?
22 A. His. He said it was his.
23 Q. And how long did you stay at this apartment on Bezanijska Kosa or
24 at the location Bezanijska Kosa?
25 A. Four days.
1 Q. And during the time that you were staying at that apartment, did
2 you have occasion to leave that apartment?
3 A. No. He did; we didn't.
4 Q. And where did Mr. Lukic and his mother reside during the
5 time-period that you were in the apartment?
6 A. In that same flat in a different room.
7 Q. And what did you and your -- did you have occasion to talk with
8 Mr. Lukic and/or his mother during the time-period that you were -- that
9 you were in the apartment?
10 A. Yes, we talked, just like that, about problems, sort of stuff
11 that was going on. That's the sort of thing we talked about.
12 Q. And did you have occasion to make any plans with your girlfriend
13 and/or Mr. Lukic as to what your plans would be in Belgrade or beyond
15 A. During our time in Belgrade
16 where we should go next and how. However, my girlfriend came up with the
17 idea of going to Novi Pazar.
18 Q. And with respect to the idea of going to Nov i Pazar, did she
19 give any rationales as to why she proposed Novi Pazar as a destination
20 for the two of you?
21 A. Yes. Yes. She said she had a friend over there who was doing
22 the same sort of work as she, a waitress, that is, from Novi Pazar. So
23 that's what decided us. We decided to go to Novi Pazar to see her.
24 Q. And for those of us that are not familiar with the geography or
25 makeup of the region, where is the municipality of Novi Pazar located?
1 A. Novi Pazar is in Serbia
2 are few Serbs living there. It's predominantly Muslim. How shall I put
3 this? This was a better place for us to try and organise ourselves in
4 terms of moving on.
5 Q. And if we could focus for a moment on the -- did you at any point
6 in time actually set out for Novi Pazar from Belgrade?
7 A. Yes. Once we had devised this plan to go to Novi Pazar, we asked
8 Lukic to drive us there. Would you do that, we said, and he said, Yes, I
9 would. He agreed to take me and my girlfriend there.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. And if we could focus for a moment on the
11 departure from Belgrade
12 out for Novi Pazar?
13 A. 10th.
14 Q. And do you recall what time of day or what time of day it was
15 that you set out from Belgrade
16 A. Sometime about noon
17 p.m. We drove up to a hotel that was there.
18 Q. Did -- you mentioned to a hotel that was there. What was the
19 ultimate destination in Novi Pazar that you had planned or agreed to go
21 A. Our ultimate destination was to get in touch with this friend, my
22 girlfriend's colleague, and see if she could do anything for us in terms
23 of us moving on, going somewhere else from there. We never meant to stay
24 in Novi
25 Muslims so that you had more people to talk to in terms of arranging
2 Q. Okay. Now, if we can go back for a second, you mentioned a
3 hotel. What role did that hotel play in your plans or activities?
4 A. We spent a night there. The next day my girlfriend, you know,
5 got in touch with this colleague of hers.
6 Q. I apologise. Before we get to the next day, I want to still
7 finish up on that day when you arrived in Novi Pazar. First of all, who
8 all was present in the automobile for this journey from Belgrade
10 A. My girlfriend, I, Milan
11 Q. And when you say you drove up to the hotel that was there, what
12 happened at that point in time? When you arrived at the hotel, what did
14 A. When we arrived at the hotel, we said good-bye to them. We
15 thanked them and wished them all the best because of everything they had
16 done for us. Nevertheless, they didn't stay for a very long time. We
17 were there to put ourselves up, and they drove on, but I have no idea
18 where it was that they went to next.
19 Q. With respect to the hotel where you -- where you put yourselves
20 up, that hotel there, is it -- where is it in relation to Novi Pazar? Is
21 it near any type of known landmarks in Novi Pazar?
22 A. Yes. There's some sort of fortress nearby. The bus terminal
23 isn't too far away, either.
24 Q. You indicated that while you were at the hotel, Milan Lukic and
25 his mother left and drove on and you have no idea where they went. Did
1 you have occasion to encounter or see Mr. Milan Lukic in person at any
2 point in time thereafter?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to what you had started telling us about
5 the next day, tell us what happened with respect to your girlfriend and
6 her -- and her colleague or friend.
7 A. The next day, my girlfriend got in touch with this colleague. We
8 spent an hour or two talking, all three of us, exploring avenues for us
9 to leave Novi Pazar and move on somewhere else. She told us that there
10 were certain avenues that were open. I then decided to use these same
11 channels for my father and brother because my parents stayed behind and
12 they had no idea what was going on with me, so I decided to use those
13 channels to evacuate them as well. I took a bus back into town, but they
14 stayed there. My girlfriend and this colleague of hers stayed right
16 Q. Now, in the -- in the transcript, it is recorded that you
17 "... took the bus back into town, but they stayed there." Could you
18 please repeat your answer and give us the details as to what town you
19 went to and where your girlfriend and this colleague of hers stayed?
20 A. My girlfriend stayed with her colleague in Novi Pazar, and I went
21 back to my own town to get my parents. When I say "my own town," I mean
22 Visegrad. That's where I'd left from.
23 Q. And now, could you detail for us again the manner of the route
24 that you took, if you know, to get to Visegrad from Novi Pazar?
25 A. There's a bus that takes you from Novi Pazar to Sarajevo, and it
1 drove across Serbia
2 Q. Now, what happened when you returned to Visegrad? Were you able
3 to find your father and brother and retrieve them so as to escape to Novi
4 Pazar as you had intended?
5 A. When I came back to Visegrad, the situation was not really, you
6 know, the way it had been when I was leaving. People were no longer
7 staying at their homes but, rather, were hiding in the surrounding woods,
8 keeping together in small groups. So later when we fled the area
9 altogether, they all assembled to form this somewhat larger group. I
10 think that it was July by this time already, so we went on to Medjedja,
11 Gorazde, and all those places there. It's a long road. My brother had
12 been injured at one point.
13 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not understand the last
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you repeat the last sentence, Witness.
16 Would you please repeat the last sentence. The interpreter didn't
17 understand it.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I returned to Visegrad, when
19 I came back to look for my parents, my father and my brother, I didn't
20 actually find them at home but, rather, in a forest near the houses. It
21 had taken me about two or three days to find them because they didn't
22 dare respond. That was the one thing, and the other thing was no one was
23 willing to give their whereabouts away to me. When I eventually got in
24 touch with them, I came up with several proposals - we can do this, we
25 can do that - and I had realised myself when I was back in Visegrad that
1 the situation was nothing like it had been. It kept deteriorating on a
2 daily basis. We couldn't go the way (redacted)
15 MR. IVETIC: If we can perhaps have some of these details
16 relating to the brother and the doctor that treated him redacted.
17 Otherwise, it might lead to identification of the witness, and we'd like
18 to preserve his protected identity?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When I speak, I cannot ...
20 MR. IVETIC: And I apologise, Your Honours. Was there more
21 detail that was required? This was a question of the Chamber that
22 prompted this response, so -- before I intervened to obtain the
23 redactions to protect the witness, so I apologise. I don't know. If
24 there's -- more detail is needed, I defer to Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: No.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. MLD1, did you in fact at any point in time thereafter have an
3 opportunity to reunite with your girlfriend in Novi Pazar as had been
4 your ultimate plan?
5 A. No, no, I didn't.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, was that already elicited that he had
7 an ultimate plan to reunite with her? If not, I'd object to the leading
8 nature of it.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, he detailed for us the manner in which
10 he intended to return to Novi Pazar with his brother and his father and
11 how that did not come to pass, and he just gives the detail of the
12 direction he went into, so I mean ...
13 MR. GROOME: I apologise. If I could just get a transcript
14 reference, and I'll correct myself.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes. Absolutely, Your Honours. One moment, please.
16 It's at page 21, 2 through 10. He talks about the discussions he and his
17 girlfriend had with a colleague and his decision to try and bring the
18 father and brother there so they could evacuate, as well, in that manner.
19 The description of -- the description of how he discussed with his
20 brother and father the plan to go and how that was nixed was from page
21 22, lines 13 through my intervention at page 23, line 10.
22 MR. GROOME: I apologise, but I'm still unable to see where the
23 plan was to reunite with his girlfriend in Novi Pazar.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Nor have I seen it, Mr. Ivetic. Is that
25 something we are to deduce? Reformulate the question.
1 MR. IVETIC: I'll reformulate the question.
2 Q. Did you have occasion to ever reunite with your girlfriend?
3 A. No. No, I didn't. I made inquiries how I could find her through
4 all the possible connections. Well, to tell you the truth, I did love
5 her a lot, but what's happened has happened. I mean, I gave her a ring;
6 I got engaged to her, and unfortunately, I found out that she is no
7 longer among the living.
8 MR. IVETIC: Mr. Witness, I have no further questions in direct
9 examination. I may have questions after my colleague on the other side
10 has concluded. I wish to thank you for coming and answering my
11 questions, and I now pass the witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
15 Q. MLD1, my name is Dermot Groome. I'm going to be asking you some
16 questions here this morning. I want to make clear to you from the very
17 outset of my questions that I believe most if not all of what you've
18 testified to here today is false. Do you understand? Do you understand
20 A. I do understand, but that's something that you think. I wanted
21 to come and to speak and to talk about what I know before this Tribunal,
22 and as far as I know one should speak the truth when one is here, and I
23 don't know how somebody else would know better than I what I lived
24 through and what I experienced. That's what I think. That's how it is.
25 Q. Well, sir, I certainly hope that you honour the oath that you
1 took here today, and it's my intention to question you here today and
2 that in a few weeks introduce proof that will clearly establish that your
3 evidence was not truthful. Do you understand me?
4 A. I understand, but I don't know how somebody other than me can
5 prove things that I experience. That's the only thing that I don't
7 Q. Well, sir, let's begin. I'd like to show you a photograph. I'm
8 going to ask you to simply look at the photograph. It's a photograph of
9 a location. I'm going to ask you simply to tell us, do you recognise
10 where it is?
11 MR. GROOME: And I'd ask that Exhibit -- or ERN number 0103-8569
12 be placed on the screen for the witness to view.
13 Q. Sir, this is actually another photograph of the same location.
14 But let me ask that OTP number 26, page 5, be shown to you, and it's a
15 closer shot of the neighbourhood that I'd like you to look at.
16 Sir, now, if you could study the roads there, the general layout
17 of the houses, then I'd ask you, can you identify it?
18 A. Well, lots of places look alike. I'm not sure. I could see I
19 think the Drina
20 somewhere in the direction of Drinsko.
21 Q. Sir, I will not say the name of this location in open session. I
22 will say that it is a photograph of where you say you were born in your
23 statement. Is it your evidence that you don't recognise this location?
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object --
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: I would object as I believe the witness's answer was
2 that he couldn't tell from this perspective. How could he have a
3 perspective of his birth village from the air as Mr. Groome suggests? I
4 mean, there would have to be a foundation laid that at some point in time
5 he had flown over his home village and had an opportunity to previously
6 record such --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness answer the question, please.
8 Please answer the question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure about what place.
10 This place you say is my village, but I really cannot recognise it from
11 this view.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. I'd ask that your statement be called up before you, and I'd ask
14 that it not be broadcast to the public. That is Y0182208.
15 MR. GROOME: And if we could go to the second page initially, I
16 would like the witness to take a look at his signature and verify that it
17 is in fact his signature.
18 I apologise, Mr. Van Hooydonk advised me that I should be saying
19 Y0182206, the English translation of the statement. Hopefully that will
20 bring up both copies.
21 And if we could go to the second page for the signature line.
22 Q. Sir, there's a signature now that's partly covered by a seal. Do
23 you recognise that signature as your own?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is this the statement that you gave in relation to this case?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, just above your signature, correct me if I'm wrong, the
3 statement says or what is on the document here before us says:
4 "This statement was given voluntarily and not under threat,
5 force, false belief, or fraud. By my signature, I confirm the
6 authenticity of it."
7 And then your signature appears. Did you give such a statement
8 under those conditions?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. And next to your signature, it's --
11 A. This is my signature. As it says, voluntarily, without threats,
12 to this lady, this lady, I don't know. She was the first one to contact
13 me about this matter.
14 Q. Well, next to your signature it states:
15 "Statement taken by Jelena Rasic, case manager."
16 Is that the name of the lady that took your statement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It looks as though the statement was then sworn before a judge or
19 some other public official in Sarajevo
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us who the official was? Was it a judge? Was it
23 some other public official? Who was the person who you appeared before
24 and signed this statement?
25 A. It was in the court building on the ground floor where documents
1 are certified or notarised.
2 Q. And when you signed this statement, were you standing before that
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Before signing it, did you read it carefully?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you able to read without any difficulty?
8 A. Yes. Perhaps if I had glasses it would be easier, but yes, I can
9 read. I mean, the letters are small, but I can see it, if you are
10 thinking of what I'm seeing in front of me now.
11 Q. I was actually referring to the time that you swore out -- or you
12 signed the statement, but let me ask you now that you raise it, do you
13 have glasses with you that would assist you? I will be asking you to
14 look at the screen several times during the course of your testimony.
15 You are free to take out glasses if you have them with you. If not,
16 perhaps we might be able to find a pair of reading glasses that you might
17 be able to use. Do you have glasses with you here today?
18 A. If necessary. I mean, if I get stuck somewhere I can ask for
19 some, but if I need to read something, it's no problem.
20 Q. Okay. Please let us know if you do.
21 Now, going back to the day you signed this statement, did you
22 read it carefully before you signed it.
23 A. Yes. First we talked; then I read the statement; then we went to
24 the court building, to the ground floor where documents like this are
25 notarised; then we notarised it, like that.
1 Q. The first time that -- was this the same day as the first time
2 that you met Jelena Rasic?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. You said that you spoke with her. Where were you when you spoke
5 with her?
6 A. In Sarajevo
8 from the team, on the cases, and then that Milan knows that you -- that I
9 did this and this and that he was asking me if I would be willing to
10 testify, and I signed the statement. We went to the court building, and
11 then if necessary, I also said that I would come here, and then after, we
12 talked about the situation and being a protected witness and so on. I
13 mean, I really couldn't wait to have the opportunity to talk about my
14 experiences --
15 Q. Please, sir.
16 A. -- about these dates, because, yeah, as a matter of fact --
17 Q. Sir.
18 A. -- I saw all sorts of things on television and on newspaper. I
19 don't know if that's true or not. I'm only here to speak the truth.
20 Q. Sir, I'm reluctant to interrupt you because once I turn on my
21 microphone, your voice then gets carried out to the public. But it's
22 very important that you answer my questions directly. You've been able
23 now to testify about the dates and everything you came to testify. I
24 have very specific questions. I'd appreciate if you could just answer
25 them as briefly as possible, okay? My question was, where did you meet
1 Jelena Rasic? You've said Sarajevo
2 did you meet? Was it in an office, in your home, in a commercial
3 establishment? Where was it that you met?
4 A. We were in a restaurant, in some house. We were in these two
6 Q. Which place were you in first?
7 A. First we were in a house or in the restaurant. I really don't
8 remember. I don't know if this is important where we were first.
9 Q. It actually is, sir. You don't remember which one you were in
11 A. Well, the cafe, the restaurant is nearby. We were in the house
12 first to talk.
13 Q. Sir, whose house was it, and if saying that compromises your
14 identity, I'll ask Judge Robinson to go into closed session. Can you
15 answer whose house you were in without compromising your identity?
16 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of whose house it was. I didn't ask
17 anything like that. All I asked was, Is it safe here? Is it safe. Do
18 you understand what I'm saying?
19 Q. I do, sir. How did you get to the house that morning or that
21 A. She got in touch with me. She told me to come to the cafe where
22 we met. Then we met there, and then we went to talk, to a safe place
23 that nobody would - as they say - discovery my identity, and then when
24 she explained to me why she had come to me and would I be willing to
25 provide a written statement, this, what's written here, and I said that I
1 would. And when the statement was written, it was given to me to read,
2 and when I read the statement, we went to this court, to the court
3 building --
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. -- on the ground floor, as I said.
6 Q. Again, you should be guided by my questions rather than engage in
7 a long narrative. My question for you is, how long did you remain in
8 that house?
9 A. An hour or two. I don't know. Not long. For as long as we
10 talked, you know, the time that it took for her to say who she was, what
11 her business was, and that she was from these teams.
12 Q. What neighbourhood in Sarajevo
13 A. In the direction of Bistrik, I think.
14 Q. Was she taking notes as you spoke about the information you
16 A. Just something, not really that thoroughly because everything had
17 to be put on paper. She said, Would I be willing to do this, would I be
18 able to provide a statement, and if necessary would I be able to -- or
19 would I agree to come to testify if it was necessary, and I said that I
21 Q. When were you first presented with the statement that we see here
22 before us today?
23 A. Well, the date is right there, when I signed it.
24 Q. How did she print this statement for you, or was it already
25 printed when you spoke with her?
1 A. I don't know how she printed it. First, she talked to me, and I
2 told her what is written here first, and then when she wrote the
3 statement, she gave it to me to read, and then when I read it, then I
4 signed it. I don't know how she printed it.
5 Q. Did you ever see her leave where you were when she -- you were
6 discussing your statement with her?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. Was there a printer in the room?
9 A. There were some things, but I don't know what -- what exactly was
11 Q. Is it your evidence that the first written account that she
12 provided you, the statement, it was accurate the first time, that you
13 didn't ask to make any corrections to it, that everything that was in it
14 was truthful and accurate?
15 A. What I told her and what was put on the paper, there were no
16 corrections. Exactly the way I told it to her was the way it was put on
17 the paper, and there were no corrections.
18 Q. Did the official that you signed the document before, did that
19 official ask you whether you had read the document and whether you were
20 affirming its accuracy and its truthfulness?
21 A. The official -- no, I don't think so. He just took my ID card
22 and he wrote something there. He looked at me. I mean, that's how they
23 usually do it. He said, Is this all right, yes, sign. That was that.
24 Q. Did Jelena Rasic sign her signature before that official as well?
25 A. We all signed it at this desk counter.
1 MR. GROOME: Thank you, sir. Your Honour, at this time I would
2 tender into evidence the prior statement of the witness under seal. I
3 also have a copy of the statement which has been redacted. His name and
4 his identifying information has been redacted. I would be tendering that
5 as a public exhibit.
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, one comment as to that. As I see now
7 the version in e-court that's on the screen, the English translation does
8 not in fact match 100 per cent the B/C/S original. It appears that the
9 draft translation that had been prepared earlier in the case is in
10 e-court. The official CLSS translation I have in my --
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I see that we're very close to the
12 break. I think this will take us to the break. It will influence the
13 testimony of the witness. So could I ask in this one instance that the
14 witness be excused so we can discuss what I believe is a rather important
15 matter with respect to the statement.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I had actually planed to just break the sessions
17 into two halves and go a little beyond an hour and a half.
18 MR. GROOME: Well, I'll be guided by the Chamber then.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: We can hear Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. The official seal says
21 translation of the B/C/S, and, of course, the B/C/S original which is on
22 the left-hand side of the screen does not contain the village that is
23 listed as the birth place on the first page in the English translation
24 that's in e-court, so that was all I was going to point out and, if need
25 be, arrange for the official translation to be put into e-court if this
1 document is going to be tendered.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in fact, let me just correct a couple
3 of things, Your Honour. That's not a CLSS translation. That's the
4 translation that the Defence provided. They provided a translation which
5 indicates the place of birth of this witness. Then they provided a
6 photocopy of the original statement where the place of birth is actually
7 removed from the document. If you look at the first page of the
8 original, although it says "place of birth," "place of birth" has been
9 removed from the photocopy. So it is my intention at this stage to ask
10 the Defence to please produce the original of the document so that I may
11 view it over the course of the break.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that was the other reason I rose. I
13 have it here, the original of the documents, the two -- it looks like
14 there's two originals of the documents --
15 MR. GROOME: If I could see both.
16 MR. IVETIC: -- and the translation from CLSS. The one that's on
17 the screen is the Defence draft translation. The official CLSS is being
18 -- is in this packet. If I could have the usher 's assistance to --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, show it to counsel and then to the Chamber.
20 MR. GROOME: Can I then ask Mr. Ivetic to give some explanation
21 as to why the original translation that was provided to the Prosecution
22 listed the name of the birth place of this witness as the place that it
23 does? What's the explanation for that, please?
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please. The Chamber is viewing
25 the document.
1 Mr. Groome, tell us your point again. You are saying the
2 translation ...
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with respect to the original submission
4 of the Defence with respect to the alibi witness, we were provided with
5 the alibi notice of this witness plus two statements: the purported
6 original -- a photocopy of the original plus a copy of a translation done
7 by the Defence themselves. If you look at a copy of the translation that
8 we were provided by the Defence, the town or the place of birth of this
9 witness is listed, and I don't know whether he was actually born there or
10 not, so I won't say it, but it's a location very relevant to this case.
11 Yet when we look at the photocopy of the original we were provided, the
12 place of birth is simply removed from the document. There is no place of
13 birth in the original.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we have what was provided to you by the
15 Defence with the --
16 MR. IVETIC: It's on the screen, Your Honours.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. That's on --
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. What I've been provided is on the
19 screen. It's the very first line.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, I see that now. Yes. Mr. Ivetic,
21 what's the explanation?
22 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I can surmise based upon what I
23 know and give you the information. Perhaps I can defer if I misstate
24 anything to Mr. Alarid, since this predates me. But it's my
25 understanding that at the time that the alibi statements of this witness
1 and several other witnesses were prepared and tendered, there is a short
2 dead-line and a requirement to hand those over. So rather than -- at
3 that point in time CLSS official translations were not available, and our
4 staff, including, I believe, Ms. Jelena Rasic, created draft translations
5 of this statement and several other statements.
6 If one compares the translation that is on the screen as the
7 English translation and the one that CLSS prepared, you'll see the
8 quality of the translation differs significantly, and I can only surmise
9 that in translating several statements at the same time under those
10 circumstances that an error occurred in the English translation of this
11 document. The witness did testify in private session at page 7, lines 24
12 and onward, I believe, as to the actual village from whence he hails, so
13 the witness has given sworn testimony as to, I believe, where he hails
14 from. But the Prosecutor is free to question on that.
15 I just -- it's my understanding that official translations are
16 the ones that are supposed to be tendered into evidence, and I happen to
17 have caught that while looking at the screen and seeing the -- the
18 translation that's in the system as not being the one that I was looking
19 off of in front of me. And that's why I rose to bring it to the Court's
20 attention, and that's -- I don't know the date of that original
21 submission, but it would have been sometime shortly after trial
22 commenced, I believe. Perhaps -- it was before trial commenced, slightly
23 before the trial commenced when there was the dead-line to produce this
24 witness's and, I believe, I think a dozen other witnesses' statements,
25 and I believe in those statements that were at that point in time
1 translated hurriedly and produced. There are several other witnesses who
2 do hail from the village that is mentioned in this translation that's on
3 the screen.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying that the place of birth that is
5 on the statement which is on the screen is wrong?
6 MR. IVETIC: The place of birth is not on the original B/C/S
7 statement, Your Honour. The original B/C/S that Your Honours have and
8 the one that's in the system does not have a place of birth listed for
9 this witness. It merely says date and place of birth, and it has the
10 date. It does not have the place.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I'm asking whether the place of birth given
12 in this statement that is on the screen, whether you are contesting that
13 that is inaccurate?
14 MR. IVETIC: The translation has an erroneous place of birth, I
15 believe, yes, based upon the witness's testimony at page 7, line 24, and
16 8, line 1, wherein he mentioned the village he is from. I cannot be 100
17 per cent sure because my question didn't deal where you were born. I
18 asked, Where did you live in 1992? We can ask the witness to clarify
19 that for us. He is the one who would know. I honestly, as I stand here,
20 do not know the precise place of birth of this witness. I only know what
21 I have on the record and what I can see with my own eyes and my knowledge
22 of B/C/S.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, maybe I can ask a few more
25 questions of the witness, but we're not talking about a mistranslation
1 here. We're talking about information that seems to have been omitted in
2 what purports is now what is an original and seems to have mysteriously
3 inserted itself into a translation. If I could ask the witness a few
4 more questions to see what he may know about it.
5 MR. ALARID: I'd like to address briefly.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Alarid, emphasis on briefly.
7 MR. ALARID: And briefly I just say, I mean, I surmise that it
8 was a typographical sort of word-processing mistake that Ms. Rasic did.
9 The quality of her translation I've always had a problem. She usually
10 uses a disk to break things up and attempt translations, so I would defer
11 to the CLSS translation, and I can't understand why we would -- obviously
12 the Bosnian draft was created first, so it was an oversight or a mistake
13 on the English translation by Ms. Rasic. I would not consider her
14 translation official.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Right. So you say it was done inadvertently.
16 Mr. Groome, yes. Do you want to ask a few more questions?
17 MR. GROOME: Yes.
18 Q. Sir, you've been listening to our conversation here. When you
19 read your statement and at the very first line it said your place of
20 birth, what followed that? Did it have your place of birth after your --
21 in your statement?
22 A. Just a minute, please.
23 Q. Sir, I'm asking you to rely on your recollection rather than
24 reading the document in front of you. When you read the document,
25 thinking back to March when you read the document, the first line where
1 it indicated your place of birth, do you have a recollection as to
2 whether or not it had your place of birth indicated in the original
4 A. I don't remember that sort of detail. I looked at my name, my
5 family name, date of birth.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this came up in the middle of me
7 tendering the two exhibits --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Place of birth, Visegrad.
9 MR. GROOME: It came up when I was in the middle of tendering a
10 sealed unredacted version and a public redacted version. I would
11 re-tender those at this stage.
12 MR. IVETIC: And again, Your Honour, I have no objection to the
13 original B/C/S of the statement coming in and the CLSS translation of
14 that original coming in. I can -- I don't have Ms. O'Leary here today to
15 be able to find out how long it would take to get that CLSS translation
16 into e-court, but I can -- I'm sure we can be in touch with the Registrar
17 to ensure that that is done so that we have the official translation. I
18 -- by all means, if Mr. Groome needs a copy, he can have the copy that I
19 believe is still in Your Honours' possession of the translation, if
20 that's ...
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I prepared my examination based on the
22 translation that the Defence provided me, so I will continue with that.
23 They are certainly free to introduce other translations on their
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. We'll admit it.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the unredacted version will become
2 Exhibit P226 under seal, and redacted version of the statement will
3 become Exhibit P227.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm going to take the break now for half an
6 --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, after the day that you signed the statement, how many times
11 did you meet with Jelena Rasic after that day?
12 A. Once or so. I don't know. Not too many times.
13 Q. Is it possible that it's more than once?
14 A. I wouldn't say that. I met the lawyer later on, this lawyer.
15 Q. When you say "this lawyer," who are you referring to?
16 A. That one.
17 Q. Is it Mr. Ivetic who questioned you here this morning?
18 A. Yeah, that one.
19 Q. What was the purpose of meeting Jelena Rasic after you had signed
20 your sworn statement?
21 A. Just to make sure whether I go or not, was I facing any problems,
22 you know, that sort of stuff, did anyone blow my cover or not, does
23 anyone know anything.
24 Q. How many times did you meet with Mr. Ivetic prior to testifying
1 A. Twice.
2 Q. And were both of those times in Sarajevo?
3 A. No. Once in Sarajevo
4 Q. And what was the purpose of those meetings?
5 A. Well, it's all about this, the same thing, similar, where there
6 any problems.
7 Q. Sir, I put it to you that the very first time that you met with
8 Jelena Rasic, you were presented with a typed copy of this statement
9 complete with everything except your name and that the only thing that
10 was missing from the statement was information about you, your name and
11 your date of birth. Is that not correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Sir, I also put it to you that the only real conversation that
14 took place between you and Jelena Rasic that day, was whether you would
15 agree to give or testify to the facts described in this statement and how
16 much money you would require to do that. Is that not true?
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the English has already been asked. He's
19 putting his case. I'll allow it. Please answer the question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not correct.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Sir, you said in your testimony that Jelena Rasic told you that
23 you would be a protected witness. Was this the first time that you met
24 Jelena Rasic that she told you this?
25 A. When we talked, I asked to be protected. If not, I can't go. I
1 couldn't agree to go for the reason that I've specified already, and this
2 thing that I signed, all this info was there. It's not like something
3 was missing. Name, surname, all that it says here.
4 Q. But you recognise now that the place where you were born is
5 missing from the document that you see before you; correct?
6 A. Missing, yes, but I don't think it was there either. I don't
7 know how they go about their business. I read that this was me, this was
8 my statement and that I signed it and that was that.
9 Q. Sir, when you told Jelena Rasic on the 26th of March, 2008
10 you would only testify as a protected witness, what did she tell you?
11 A. That she would see whether this was a possibility, will someone
12 allow, what do I know. The court probably if they allow, I really don't
13 know how exactly this works.
14 Q. When were you told that you were going to be given protections,
15 that your identity would not be revealed to anyone outside this courtroom
16 when you testified?
17 A. Before I signed the statement.
18 Q. So you were told prior to signing the statement on the 26th of
19 March, 2008, that you would be given protections by this court and your
20 identity would not be revealed to anyone outside of this courtroom. Is
21 that what your testimony is?
22 A. Yes, that's what I was promised. And the last time we met, I was
23 adamant, Is that it? Yes. Just in case I'm here and is it true or not
24 or what.
25 Q. Would you have signed the statement or would you have agreed to
1 testify without being given that promise by Jelena Rasic?
2 A. That's a bit more difficult for me to sign -- you know what? I
3 said it. Come to sign this and something public like this, me not being
4 protected and all, I said, No good for me, you see? That's what I said.
5 Q. Do you realise it was not until six months after that day that
6 the Chamber finally did extend you protective measures on the 24th of
7 September, 2008?
8 MR. IVETIC: Object as to foundation. How can the witness know
9 what's been transpiring in these proceedings, and I object to the
10 relevance of these questions as to this witness.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not allowing that question, Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. Did you obtain a passport for your trip up here today?
14 A. Yeah. Can't do without one, can I?
15 Q. Was that the first time you had a -- was that the first passport
16 that you've owned?
17 A. No. In Visegrad in Republika Srpska, yes, when I signed up for
18 my return that I used to have a passport over there, the Federation.
19 Q. When were you issued your first passport? What year?
20 A. I don't know. After the war. After the war, thereabouts. There
21 was this neighbour of mine. I went to work for him and --
22 Q. Sir, I don't need the entire account of how you received the
23 passport. If you tell me that it was after the war, that's sufficient
24 for my purposes. My next question is, your girlfriend, did she have a
25 passport that you knew of during the war?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Sir, I'd like to go into closed session for a few minutes and ask
3 you some questions about your family.
4 MR. GROOME: If we might do that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 4367-4369 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now, Your Honours.
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that lived with your girlfriend in her
6 apartment in Dusce or simply that you lived at home and visited her at
7 the apartment from time to time?
8 A. You could say that I practically lived there. I spent the night
9 there often. I stopped by often. I was with her most of the time, and I
10 didn't see anyone else.
11 Q. Now, you say that you were dating her for five to six months, so
12 that would mean in -- your relationship with her began in January or
13 February of 1992?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you approximate for us when it was that you began regularly
16 staying at her apartment?
17 A. Well, it wasn't a regular thing. What I understood you to be
18 asking is if I was there day and night. Is that what you mean by
20 Q. Well, the transcript on page 48, line 4, records you as saying "I
21 practically lived there." So my question to you is, can you approximate
22 for us when it was that you practically lived there?
23 A. Yes, yes, practically. I agree with that, practically. The
24 first half of our relationship, we saw each other less frequently. Than
25 we would meet more and more often. We got close. We fell in love. We
1 loved each other. Well, I hope that's nothing of dispute. Everyone has
2 a right to fall in love.
3 Q. Sir.
4 A. And even if they did not, I did fall in love with her, and I was
5 in love with her at that time, yes.
10 A. No, I was living at home, but for the last two or three months I
11 would be going there often, and sometimes I would spend the night there,
12 maybe one night or sometimes two nights, but I lived with my family
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm quite concerned that
15 Mr. Groome in -- in cross-examination of every single one of our
16 protected witnesses mentions identifying details in open session. He has
17 now identified the village this gentleman is from. He did that with
18 MLD10, as well, and that was played on SENSE Agency, et cetera. So we
19 are quite concerned with this tactic of Mr. Groome.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't think it's a tactic. I'm sure it's done
21 inadvertently. That will be redacted.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. Sir, I want to look at another point in your statement. The
24 first mention in your statement about you having any interaction with the
25 police in Visegrad gives that date, the 4th of June. You do not mention
1 anything prior to that happening to you or your family. Did anything
2 happen to you or your family prior to the 4th of June with respect to the
3 police or soldiers in Visegrad?
4 A. With the army, the soldiers, yes, and with the police at the time
5 -- well, actually the soldiers took me to the stadium. I was detained
6 and so on. There were such things.
7 Q. And when you were detained by the soldiers -- when were you
8 detained by the soldiers?
9 A. We went to the stadium in mid-April. After that, they would be
10 going through the villages, walking through them, and then at one time
11 they took us allegedly to the police. Actually, they took us to the
12 police station. Finally, they took us to the police station.
13 Q. Was that with a person by the name of Fadil Jelacic? Is that
15 A. Fadil Jelacic, yes. That's the name.
16 Q. Let me just summarise the event and ask you whether or not I'm
17 accurately portraying it. That one day in your village, Fadil was hiding
18 in the woods with Ibrahim Demir and Himo Sepo when about 30 soldiers
19 entered the village. The soldiers entered the village and captured three
20 people, two men, one who was Semso Becirovic and a young boy by the name
21 of Almir Mesic. The soldiers took the three prisoners and told Fadil's
22 father if Fadil did not turn himself by the time of night fell, the three
23 hostages would be killed. The three men, frightened, were taken away and
24 later that evening Fadil, afraid for the lives of his friends, turned
25 himself in. Because he turned himself in, those three people were not
2 You are one of the men that was taken in that Fadil tried to save
3 by turning himself in. Is that not true?
4 A. No. No, it's not true. There is something about that, but I can
5 tell my version of it. I mean, it wasn't like that. It happened
7 Q. Were you detained by the police the same day that Fadil came
8 later and turned himself in?
15 MR. IVETIC: The transcript -- the audio did carry the name of
16 the brother, I believe, and one other individual. I'd ask that those be
17 redacted to protect the identity of this protected witness. Thank you.
18 That's in line numbers 2 and 3 of page 51, I believe, where this came up,
19 and I apologise.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: That will be done. Yes.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Sir, MLD1, if I could move ahead to what happened at the police
23 station. You were detained at the police station in Visegrad for quite a
24 number of days; is that not true?
25 A. Three or four days.
1 Q. And one of the people that you were detained there with was a man
2 by the name of Nezir Zunic; is that not correct?
3 A. Zunic, yes. Zunic.
4 Q. And you were present when he was taken out by Niko Vujicic, and
5 he has never been seen since; is that not true?
6 A. He stayed after I left.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I guess I'm wondering where this is
9 going to and what this relevance is as to this particular case and the
10 particular testimony of this witness.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome will explain. Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: One of the people he encountered during that visit
13 was Milan Lukic, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Do you recall a person by the name of Safet Tvrtkovic?
17 A. Tvrtkovic, yes, yes.
18 Q. He was with you in the Visegrad police station, and he was taken
19 out by Novo Rajak. Is that not correct?
20 A. They all stayed after I left. While I was there those two or
21 three days, only those from the Uzice Corps came to beat us and to abuse
22 us, but they stayed after I left. I was only there for two or three
23 days. I, Sasa, Stjepan, and Milan
24 Q. Sir, I have information from one of these men that Milan Lukic
25 visited that police station nearly every night while you were there. Do
1 you deny that this is not true?
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Just a minute. Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: I believe that we're again having Mr. Groome trying
5 to introduce statements of out-of-court declarants that are unavailable
6 for cross-examination, trying to introduce them into these proceedings
7 through a witness that -- at least with this type of question, there's no
8 ability for there to be a foundation to know whether this witness has any
9 kind of means of knowing about or testifying about what someone else
10 allegedly told Mr. Groome. I would hold Mr. Groome to the same standards
11 that were held against the Defence in the cross-examination of
12 Prosecution witnesses, namely that the statements of out-of-court
13 declarants cannot be presented to witnesses to assert the truth of the
14 matter that is asserted.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I hope this is not coming out of my
16 time. I'm simply asking the witness, did he see Milan Lukic there during
17 the two or three days that he was held captive there.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have misread it. I mean, he's
19 simply putting to him that Milan Lukic visited him at the police station
20 every night.
21 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour. He says, Is it not true that one
22 of these men said that Milan Lukic visited. If he asked that second
23 question, I wouldn't have an objection, but he started off by saying, I
24 have information for one of these men, and then he asks: "Do you deny
25 that this is not true?" That's specifically asking for him to comment on
1 what this other individual, undeclared, unknown, is telling Mr. Groome.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me hear the question again.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Sir, it is not a fact that while you were detained in a Visegrad
5 police station, Milan Lukic, a reserve police officer - albeit against
6 his will, allegedly - was in that police station every night that you
7 were, sir?
8 A. No, no, it's not true, and it's not true that this other guy that
9 you mentioned a bit earlier. He didn't come. I mean, there is talk that
10 he did come. That's what is circulating around. But actually, neither
11 he nor the other guy came around, no.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just to clarify whether what is not true,
13 Mr. Groome, is that Milan Lukic did not visit him every night or whether
14 he came once or twice.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Sir, did you ever see Milan Lukic during the time that you were
17 under arrest in the Visegrad police station come into the police station,
18 at any time?
19 A. No, I didn't see him. No.
20 Q. Thank you, sir.
21 A. I only saw this first guy.
22 Q. So that we are clear about the time-period, this is in May of
23 1992, correct, the time that you were detained in the police station?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Sir, what have you been doing for employment the last few years?
1 A. Nothing. I mean, I have my own small truck and so on.
2 Q. And would you characterise -- are you steadily busy working with
3 that truck or has it been difficult to earn a living in these times?
4 A. It is difficult to work. There isn't work constantly.
8 Q. Was this an apartment that both of you took under lease in
9 preparation for becoming married?
10 A. No. No, this was the apartment that her boss was paying for.
11 Q. And did she live there alone?
12 A. Yes.
15 A. Yes. My father knew, yes.
16 Q. And at this point in time, were you already a member of the
17 Federation army?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You at some point did join the Federation army; is that correct?
20 A. At some point, yes, I did.
21 Q. When was that, sir?
22 A. This was in July, early July.
23 Q. Now, I want to ask you about this apartment. How many floors
24 were in the building that this apartment was in?
25 A. There were five or six families there, perhaps three or four
1 families. There was a room rented there for that employee who worked
2 close by.
3 Q. And how many floors in the building?
4 A. The ground floor and two floors.
5 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that you be shown a picture of this
6 neighbourhood. I ask that it not be displayed to the public. It is ERN
8 Q. Sir, in a short while, the photograph will come up before you.
9 I'm going to ask you with the assistance of the court usher to take an
10 electronic pen and circle the apartment where you were with your
12 A. This is the building.
13 Q. And you mentioned another building that you -- or an abandoned
14 house that you stayed in for several days. Can you tell us the name of
15 the person who owned that house without compromising your identity?
16 A. I can. Shall I tell you?
17 Q. What was the name?
18 A. Nedjic Sabanovic [phoen].
19 Q. Can you please circle the abandoned building where you stayed for
20 that period of days?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And finally, did you know a woman by the name of Behija Zukic?
23 A. I cannot remember. It sounds familiar, but I can't remember the
25 Q. They appear to be a well known family that had a grocery store in
2 A. Yes, yes, I heard of that. They are well known, but it was a
3 long time ago. It's the faces, the faces.
4 MR. GROOME: Okay. Thank you, sir. I'm finished with that. I
5 at this time, Your Honour, would tender that photograph into evidence.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P228 under seal, Your Honours.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Sir, were you present in the apartment of your girlfriend the day
10 that Murat Sabanovic released water from the dam?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know where you were that day?
13 A. I do know. I was there in the village.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that we go into closed session
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. Sir, you mentioned that your girlfriend was a waitress in the bar
24 in the area in which she lived. Were you a regular patron of that bar?
25 A. Yes, mostly. Although I would go more to see her in the
1 apartment than to the restaurant. You know, she was a waitress so the
2 guests would be, you know, commenting and saying things. You know how it
3 is if you are a waitress. So I avoided going to her place of work.
4 Q. Now, you've told us here this morning that she was your fiancee,
5 that you proposed marriage to her during this five to six months that you
6 were seeing her. Your statement says absolutely nothing about being
7 engaged to her, simply refers to her as a friend from the bar. Why did
8 you forget to include that in your statement? It seems like an important
10 A. I was just rolling back in my mind all the events, all the things
11 I could remember, and I remembered immediately. Well, the first half we
12 were like that. I mean, it wasn't that we were ready for marriage. We
13 were just courting, and it was like this, and then towards the end we had
14 agreed to get married, and it was a custom to buy, like, a gold chain or
15 a ring or something like that as an engagement gift.
16 Q. Well, please tell us the day that you got engaged and gave your
17 girlfriend a piece of jewellery.
18 A. Maybe a month before the 4th, before we went where we went.
19 Q. No, I was asking for the date. You do remember the date that you
20 were engaged with your girlfriend, no?
21 A. I'm trying to remember. It was about a month before, and then
22 after that, the trip and the meeting with this one, so a month prior.
23 That would be that.
24 Q. Sir, well, what day did you plan on getting married? Had you set
25 a date?
1 A. Not properly. No, we didn't set a proper date. No.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: It's okay. Let him answer this one. Too late for
4 the objection, Your Honours, but if -- Mr. Groome should perhaps ask
5 about the customs that are in place in Bosnia, but ...
6 MR. GROOME: I'll leave that for redirect, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, how is it you remember the 4th of June with such precision
8 that police arrived at your door but seem to be having difficulty
9 recalling the date that you were engaged to the love of your life?
10 A. It's hard for me to remember. I know it was a month before that,
11 but she was really screaming. I mean, she was afraid, you understand,
12 and then she said, We will not forget this ever, if we do manage to get
13 out, if we get out in two or three days. You understand?
14 Q. I do understand that. This is the third time now you've been
15 taken into custody against your will. You are not able to tell me the
16 date that you were placed on the back of your truck with your father; is
17 that correct? You cannot give me the precise date there, can you?
18 A. The exact date, the 12th, the 13th. I cannot know exactly the
20 Q. I accept that.
21 A. But I think I cannot recall these meetings with this -- my ...
22 Q. The record records you as saying:
23 "But I think I cannot recall these meetings with this -- my..."
24 and then it seems that you did not finish your answer. Could I ask you
25 to please complete your answer? What meetings can you not recall?
1 MR. IVETIC: If I can intervene, and again, this is a an issue
2 for the transcript, if I could --
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm aware that there may be some issues
4 with the transcript, but I'm growing increasingly concerned that this is
5 being -- translation corrections are being used to coach witnesses in the
6 middle of their testimony. I'd ask that if there's a translation issue
7 that it be handled in the appropriate way. If Mr. Ivetic tells me that
8 my question has been mistranslated, I will certainly repeat my question
9 for the witness.
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes. No, the basis for Mr. Groome's question has
11 been mistranslated, Your Honours, and if I'm not to correct it, then
12 let's proceed like this, let's -- but I think you should ask the -- well,
13 the audio will prove me correct. Let it just stand at that.
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. Sir, again, the transcript records you as saying you cannot
16 recall these meetings. Did you say that, and if you said that, what did
17 you mean?
18 A. Which meetings? You were asking a lot. Can you please repeat
19 the question.
20 Q. I'll go back to my original question. You are not able to recall
21 the precise date that you and your father were forcibly placed on a truck
22 and brought to the stadium; is that not correct?
23 A. 12th or the 13th, something like that. That's how I remember the
25 Q. What month?
1 A. April.
2 Q. What was the day, the precise date that you were arrested and
3 brought to the Visegrad police station for two or three days?
4 A. Precise date. About 15 days after that.
5 Q. So your reference point is that it's about two weeks after the
6 initial time that you were arrested, the day the Uzice Corps came into
7 town; is that correct?
8 A. The Uzice Corps, I think on or about the 1st.
9 Q. The 1st of what month?
10 A. April.
11 Q. Sir, your girlfriend or former fiancee is deceased now; is that
12 not correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What's the date of her death?
15 A. I don't know that. I don't know. I asked, but ...
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: I was going to say, that flows from his testimony
18 before as to how he learned of the circumstances of the death and ...
19 MR. GROOME: Is there an objection to the question I've asked?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just --
21 MR. IVETIC: He's already asked this once, so --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just carry on, please. Carry on. Carry on.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. Sir, earlier today you said that -- at transcript 12, line 11,
25 you said that the police arrived at your house on the 4th of June
1 sometime in the morning. Looking at paragraph 3 of the statement that we
2 were provided by Defence, it says that it was in the afternoon. So I ask
3 you, was it in the morning or was it in the afternoon that the police
4 first came to your house?
5 A. To that neighbourhood at my girlfriend's place, you mean?
6 Q. Yes, sir.
7 A. About noon
8 Q. So your statement is wrong when it records you as saying it was
9 in the afternoon?
10 A. I don't know that. I know that that same date before that, we
11 went to that abandoned house.
12 Q. Now, it's your testimony that you never saw Milan Lukic before
13 this day; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it's your testimony that after he dropped you off in Novi
16 Pazar, you had never seen him again during the course of the war or after
17 the war; is that correct?
18 A. No. This is the first time I see him since then.
19 Q. I notice when you walked into the courtroom, you actually greeted
20 someone. Was the person that you greeted and waved back to you, is that
21 the person that you're describing as Milan Lukic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'd ask you to look around the courtroom, and just so it's clear
24 who we are speaking about, can you indicate where the person you are
25 referring to as Milan Lukic is sitting in the courtroom, perhaps by the
1 row that they're sitting in and their position from left to right.
2 A. Right next to the policeman on the right.
3 Q. Can you describe the tie that he is wearing?
4 A. It's got some grey. It's got some white.
5 Q. And, sir, I notice that you waved to him within taking a couple
6 of steps after walking in this courtroom. Am I right to conclude from
7 that that you recognised him almost immediately after walking into this
9 A. Well, I recognised him on TV, as well, even before I walked into
10 the courtroom.
11 Q. Does he appear to be different to you in any way?
12 A. A little. A little different. A little older, plumper.
13 Q. Now, on paragraph 4 of your statement, it says:
14 "When the third light-brown-haired, tall, and big policeman saw
15 that, he asked his fellow colleagues not to take us in, since there was
16 nothing disputable about our documents."
17 Do you describe his hair colour from that period as being light
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does it appear darker to you as he sits here today, or is that
21 the colour that you recall from 1992?
22 A. A little darker.
23 Q. Now, in this very first encounter with you, you describe that he
24 tells you a number of things about his life: where he has been, how he
25 is forced against his will to be a police officer, and that his mother
1 was sick. How long did this go on, this kind of sharing of some of the
2 important events in his life on this first occasion?
3 A. A short time.
4 Q. And did he volunteer this information about his mother and where
5 he was before Visegrad and what happened with the police? Did he
6 volunteer this to you, or was this in response to questions you asked?
7 A. He told us what he said, against his will, back from Switzerland
8 in order to take his mother there because his mother was ill or
9 something, and that was when we realised that one could actually talk to
10 him. And then we asked him, Come on, give us a hand with this
11 certificate business so they -- and all that.
12 Q. Sir, it's been put to some witnesses at this trial that there
13 were a lot of rumours flying around about Milan Lukic, that a lot of
14 people were talking about things that he was supposed to have done. Had
15 you heard any rumours about crimes or violent acts that a person by the
16 name of Milan Lukic had been perpetrating?
17 MR. IVETIC: I'll object as to foundation without a period of
18 time being identified, and it's -- from 1992 to present is a long time.
19 If it could be broken down, I think the witness ought to answer.
20 MR. GROOME: Unless I say differently, I'm talking about the day
21 that we're talking about now in court.
22 Q. Do you remember my question?
23 A. Can you repeat, please.
24 Q. Around this time, the time that you first meet Milan Lukic, it's
25 been put to witnesses that there were many, many wild rumours flying
1 around about terribly violent acts that he was perpetrating. Had you
2 yourself heard any of these rumours?
3 A. No. I heard more after the war when everything was over.
4 Q. It's also been put to witnesses that there were rumours that he
5 was in possession of a red Passat that was taken from a prominent Muslim
6 woman who was killed. Did you hear any of these rumours?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: I'll let the answer stand, but, I mean, it's
10 re-asking the same question. He said he heard no bad rumours. Then the
11 counsel puts to him, Did you hear the rumour that he did this? It's
12 asked and answered, but the question -- the witness answered in the
13 negative so it stands. But I think that such questions are irrelevant
14 without bases after they received the original answer.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. Sir, I want to read a portion of your statement. In paragraph 4,
18 it says:
19 "I asked him to take us to Serbia where I would make a plan where
20 to hide because I was in fear because of warfare in the territory of
22 Is it your testimony that within minutes of meeting this Serb
23 police officer, you asked him to help you escape from Visegrad? A simple
24 yes or no, please.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. He had introduced himself and told us he, too, was a --
3 Q. What were you yourself trying to escape in Visegrad?
4 A. Well, many things. There was firing. You weren't safe. It
5 applied to all.
6 Q. And what it not be fair to say that given your experience in the
7 Visegrad police station, that you believed that police officers were
8 among the people that were committing violent acts against some of the
9 Muslim population?
10 A. I don't get this.
11 Q. Sir, you spent two to three days in the Visegrad police station.
12 While you were there, did you not witness some of the violent acts
13 perpetrated by members of that police force against some of the Muslims
14 detained there?
15 A. No. The soldiers, it was the soldiers who were beating us,
16 soldiers, members of the army.
17 Q. So it's your evidence that soldiers came into the police station
18 and mistreated the people detained there?
19 A. Yes. Exactly.
20 Q. What was it about Milan Lukic that made you entrust your very
21 life to him so quickly and so completely?
22 A. Because he was open to us as well. He told us what he told us,
23 and my judgement was that he might be trusted in terms of getting us out.
24 It wasn't until later that I found out when he talked to my girlfriend
25 during the trip itself and he was asking her, Do you remember this, Do
1 you remember that. I think he was even a customer where she worked, at
2 that cafe, and I felt then at the time that she, too, had remembered him
3 from before. So this whole story --
4 Q. So, sir, if you feel that you can trust him with the life of you
5 and your fiancee, why not ask him to also save your father and your
6 brother? Why not also ask him to save the remainder of your family, help
7 all of you get out of Visegrad at the same time?
8 A. Well, that was the first time I set eyes on him. The army and
9 all that, that was before, and I reckoned I would try and get my father
10 out of there once I'd put up my girlfriend, and my girlfriend and a
11 colleague confirmed that there was an avenue for them to be pulled out.
12 That was why I travelled all the way back.
13 Q. Sir, at this time, you did not know anyone in Belgrade; is that
14 not correct?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the answer. The
16 interpreter didn't understand anything.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Can I ask you just to lean a little bit closer to the microphone
19 and repeat your answer.
20 A. I don't know Belgrade
21 Q. Why is it that you ask him to take you there instead of to the
22 other side of Visegrad where you could have safely made your way to
23 Gorazde or some of the other areas held by Bosnian Federation forces?
24 Why to a place full of Serbs that you don't know anyone?
25 A. Because it was something that he could do while he was busy with
1 another task. It was about the certificates and him being able to take
2 his mother there, but you see, the Muslim forces and once they get going,
3 you know, it's not a great distance, and then you have to pound all those
4 Serb obstacles and everything.
5 Q. You only state in your statement about one check-point that you
6 encountered on your way to Belgrade
7 through one check-point?
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Can you please repeat your answer?
11 A. At Uvac, that check-point, is that the one you mean, with a small
12 bridge, the one that we walked across?
13 Q. That is the only one that you mentioned. Am I correct in
14 thinking that that particular check-point, Uvac, is still within the
15 municipality of Visegrad?
16 A. It's straddles the border with Serbia, over there.
17 Q. Was it the border crossing with Serbia?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You encountered no other check-points on the way out of Visegrad?
20 A. Nothing much, really. Those check-points, they didn't ask for no
21 papers, but here, yes, they did. We knew exactly how far we could go
22 without this stamp, certificate, whatever you called that, because it was
23 that one that we needed it for, the one at Uvac, right, because we
25 Q. So, sir, at this time you did not have a passport, so you are
1 crossing an international check-point, a border crossing check-point
2 without a passport; is that correct? Is that your evidence?
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, misstates the evidence. The witness
4 was very clear as to how and where he crossed.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's asking him whether that's his evidence.
6 That's for him to say.
7 Is that what you are saying, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one asked to see the passport,
9 just the ID and all that, and the certificates, which -- yeah.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, Mr. Ivetic took 51 minutes, and you
11 have now used an hour and 15 minutes. How much more do you have?
12 MR. GROOME: I'd say about another 20 minutes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want to finish this witness today, so I'll
14 give you another 12 minutes.
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Sir, you testified that shortly after you were in Novi Pazar you
17 came back to Visegrad on a public transportation; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did you show at the border crossing when you returned into
20 Visegrad or into Bosnia
21 A. I had my ID on me. Entering Bosnia, that bus, no one asked for
22 anything. It's not a problem getting into Bosnia or Visegrad
23 specifically. The problem is getting out. Getting out. On your way
24 into Visegrad, you don't need a certificate or anything, but if you want
25 to leave Visegrad, no way. There are check-points where you have to
1 produce this certificate, that certificate.
2 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that Map 0545-2690 be placed on the screen
3 for the witness.
4 Q. I'm asking that a map be placed before you. Can I ask you what
5 you recall about Milan Lukic's apartment. How many floors were in the
6 apartment building?
7 A. Three or four. Three or four floors. We were in one of those.
8 Q. And did the --
9 A. And I know that --
10 Q. Did the apartment have property belonging to Milan Lukic in it,
11 property such as a telephone, a television, different types of property
12 you would normally find in an apartment.
13 A. It was a furnished flat, yes, furnished with that counter, the
14 bed that I told you about, with leather --
15 Q. There's no need to re-describe it again.
16 A. -- that we were in, and then the other side, the terrace and all
18 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at -- there's a map of Belgrade
19 before you. Would you be able to circle the approximate area of where
20 you were in Belgrade
21 A. I can't find my way around this.
22 Q. If you are not able, sir, I don't want to waste any time on it.
23 If you're able to quickly circle the approximate location of where you
24 were ...
25 A. I remember it was called Bezanijska Kosa, something like that,
1 but I'm looking at this and I'm wondering, what's all of this about? You
2 get it, right?
3 Q. If you're not able, sir, then I'll move on.
4 Sir, are you able to?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, court usher.
7 Sir, you arrived there on the 7th and you went to Novi Pazar on
8 the 10th; correct?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Now, looking at the statement that you've given, both
11 translations, the ones we were provided and the ones that is purported to
12 be of CLSS, all of those statements say that you stayed there either four
13 days or four nights. By my calculations, the 7th to the 10th would
14 simply be the three; is that not correct?
15 A. I'm doing the math myself, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 7th.
16 So those were the three days. The 7th, the 8th, the 9th and the 10th.
17 That was my calculation, four days, right?
18 Q. Well, the CLSS translation that we were just provided says that
19 you spent four nights in the apartment. If you stayed there the night of
20 the 7th, you stayed there the night of the 8th, the night of the 9th,
21 that would be three nights, and then if you went to Pazar on the 10th,
22 that would be three nights in the apartment; correct?
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if we can have the -- Mr. Groome, if
25 he's going to refer to the statement, the witness's language is Bosnian.
1 He signed a Bosnian statement. Have him refer to the Bosnian statement
2 that the counsel has actually introduced into evidence, and we can -- in
3 these translations --
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, given my limited time, I'd rather not
5 have Mr. Ivetic read a statement. Let him use his redirect for that.
6 I'll move on to another area. The witness has testified and he has
7 counted --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, but Mr. Groome, if you are putting a
9 statement to him, then I agree, it should be put in --
10 MR. IVETIC: That language he knows.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the language that he knows, and I'll take
12 that into account. Can we have it in the language that he -- in his
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while that's being brought up, may I
15 ask a few more questions, and then we'll come back to this?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Sir --
19 MR. IVETIC: If I can assist, it's page 2 in the middle -- page 2
20 of the B/C/S. In the middle is the selection that Mr. Groome was citing
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. Sir, while the court officer is pulling up this portion of your
24 statement, when did you decide with your girlfriend that you would go to
1 taken that you would try to make your way to Novi Pazar?
2 A. I decided that when we were staying in that flat. We were
3 discussing all sorts of things, who and where, who knows whom and where,
4 and then she said this about this colleague in Novi Pazar, best thing to
5 do, just go there to visit her.
6 Q. If I can draw your attention to the morning of the 8th, are you
7 able to tell me whether you came to the decision to go to Novi Pazar
8 before the morning of the 8th of June or after the morning of the 8th of
10 A. After, towards the end was when we -- because we were thinking
11 and thinking, and it was in the last day that we eventually decided to go
12 there because we didn't know of any better option.
13 Q. So are you saying that it was not until the 10th of June that you
14 made a decision with your girlfriend that your best option was to go to
16 A. Well, we were taking our time to decide, but the decision was
17 taken towards the end. But it was something that we were doing
18 throughout the time we spent there, what would be the best thing for us
19 to do, where to go, where's the safest place to go, does anyone know
20 anyone else anywhere, that sort of thing, and then we took the decision,
21 and when it was final, because she had this friend over there in this
22 town, well, best place to go, wasn't it?
7 Q. The record records you at page 22, line 5, that you returned to
8 Visegrad in July. Is that correct, that you returned in July to
10 A. When I what?
11 Q. When you left Novi Pazar and returned to Visegrad, did you do
12 that in July?
13 A. June. June. Same month.
14 Q. How long did you remain in Novi Pazar?
15 A. Single night. Single night. That's how long I was there for,
16 and she stayed with her, and then at about 11 there was a bus out of
17 town, and that was the bus I took on my way back, and I said I'd go back
18 again, but I didn't because we agreed that I should have a go at it.
19 Q. Sir --
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have to intervene. The question
21 Mr. Groome just asked actually misstated the transcript. The reference
22 does not say he returned to Visegrad in July. So again, if Mr. Groome is
23 going to hold me to a standard of citing to the record, allow him to cite
24 to the record. It says:
25 "So later when we fled the area altogether, they all assembled
1 and formed this group" -- "somewhat larger group. I think it was July at
2 this time already..."
3 So clearly Mr. Groome's question does not state the evidence
4 accurately as it appears on the record.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome. Pay more attention to ...
6 MR. GROOME: I'm happy to be held to a similarly high standard,
7 Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, can you explain to us why, after being arrested twice in
9 Visegrad, having the police come and threaten to take you again to the
10 police station, of seeking Mr. Lukic's assistance to escape Visegrad, why
11 it is that you returned so quickly to the town of Visegrad and returned
12 in the way that you did, not by entering through Bosnian-held territory
13 but going straight through the middle into where the very people that had
14 detained you before were likely to catch you again?
15 A. I think I explained that to you already. It's not a problem. I
16 went back once I put up my girlfriend there. That was when I felt safe,
17 and then I went back because going into Visegrad was no problem at all,
18 and I went back because my brother and my father were still there, and no
19 one at the time was aware of my whereabouts or what I was doing. Okay.
20 That much is obvious, so I went back.
21 Q. Sir, in your mind Milan Lukic saved your life, is that not
22 correct, and the life of your fiancee?
23 A. In my opinion, yes, he did. He saved me. But I don't know how
24 things would have proceeded from there.
25 Q. Now, sir, his indictment has been public for many years now. Why
1 did you not come forward of your own accord and tell the Office of the
2 Prosecutor or local police or any governmental authority in your own
3 country that you had information that could exonerate an innocent man of
4 extremely serious charges? Why did you not come forward of your own
5 volition with this information earlier?
6 A. I think that I replied to that because to this day I would not
7 ask for the measures if I could -- I mean, I really couldn't say anything
8 of my own initiative and even this, that I'm here. Do you understand
9 what I'm saying? That's why I asked for these protective measures
10 because where I live, there, as I said, the people don't like him. There
11 are these stories, there's television, as you say.
12 Q. Well, sir, I happen to know your father and your cousin quite
13 well, and I believe they would say that I'm a trustworthy individual.
14 Did you never discuss with your father or your cousin the possibility of
15 bringing this information to the attention of the Office of the
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would object to Mr. Groome
19 testifying as to what other people, out-of-court declarants would say
20 about him. I think it's an improper question in that regard. If he
21 rephrased it, maybe it can be presented in a way that it's not
22 objectionable, but I believe as stated it is objectionable.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate it, Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Sir, close members of your family have had significant and
1 repeated contacts with the Office of the Prosecutor here in The Hague
2 Did it never occur to you that this very important information which
3 could exonerate the man who saved your life, did it never occur to you
4 that you could bring this information to the Office of the Prosecutor?
5 A. It's like this: To this day, no one other than my father knows
6 that I'm here. I'm not about to go and talk about it, if you understand
7 what I'm saying. I didn't tell anyone, if you understand me, what I'm
9 Q. Sir, your father was a protected witness in this Tribunal. Has
10 his identity ever been compromised in the seven years since he testified?
11 A. I didn't hear of that.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Last question, Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I hope to finish within the
16 time-period that we have.
17 We still have -- well, can we call up 1D220061, and that should
18 be linked with 1D220059, but not broadcast to the public. This ought to
19 be the original Bosnian statement of this witness along with the official
20 CLSS translation of the same, and if we can turn to page 2 of the B/C/S
21 version, Bosnian version.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
23 Q. And just to clarify, the ambiguity as to translation that
24 Mr. Groome introduced, if you look, sir, at the centre of this page that
25 you have in front of you, of your statement, do you see there what it
1 says? Does it say -- does it say -- in the Bosnian language, is it four
2 days or four nights that you stayed in the Belgrade apartment there in
3 the middle of the page where it says "tusmo"? Is it four days or four
4 nights in the Bosnian original that you signed, sir?
5 A. Four days.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir. Your Honours, for giving the full
7 and complete and accurate statement in the official language of the
8 Tribunal, we would tender this version with the official CLSS
9 translation, and then I can -- as the next available 1D exhibit?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D101 under seal, Your Honours.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now, I believe for the last -- for the
13 last questions, just to be the on the safe side, I should go into private
14 session as it relates to issues that might identify the witness.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 Sir, we are in open session, and I have no further questions for
23 you. I just want to thank you again on behalf of the Defence of Milan
24 Lukic for making the difficult decision to come here as a Bosnian Muslim
25 to testify on behalf of the Defence. I thank you very much.
1 I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
3 you for giving it, and you may now leave. At this stage, I think we will
4 adjourn and hear the next witness tomorrow.
5 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just before we leave, we have not
8 received any exhibits for the next witness. Am I to take from that that
9 there will be no exhibits used with this next witness, it being less than
10 48 hours at this point?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a fair assumption?
12 MR. IVETIC: That's a fair assumption, yes.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of
16 January, 2009, at 8.50 a.m.