090123ED

Page 4404

1 Friday, 23 January 2009

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.56 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you have a matter to raise.

6 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I have a matter as a preliminary

7 matter in conjunction with the Prosecution's request and Your Honours'

8 instructions for us to inquire if there are additional statements that

9 perhaps our investigators or persons working in the field had taken,

10 during proofing last night I uncovered that this witness (redacted) has -

11 I wouldn't call it a statement - but a three-four line summary that he

12 did sign and during the period we uncovered three or so more of those

13 which I bring to the attention only because of the fact that the witness

14 is coming to this court, otherwise I would have got translations and

15 given them all to the Prosecution outside of court.

16 But I have prepared a draft translation of this short, not even

17 half a page, quarter page, what's identified as written statement of the

18 witness who is coming into court this morning; and I've just been able to

19 e-mail that now this morning to Mr. Van Hooydonk, so I hope he's able to

20 pull that up and provide that to Ms. Sartorio, and I apologise for

21 this -- for the manner in which this is done. This obviously came as a

22 surprise to us, but we do want to try to fully comply with the Court's

23 directions and, therefore, went through the diligent efforts to locate

24 these others, and they're all really -- I think once they're translated

25 the parties will see the -- by their nature they're not very detailed.

Page 4405

1 They're more summaries of -- that happen to be signed. They're not

2 really detailed. Fact witness statements as we have come to know the

3 term, but I think they do fall obviously under the ambit of what we do

4 need to disclose to the other party and that is what we're intending to

5 do.

6 So with respect to the other such documents, I have hard copies

7 that I can provide to the Prosecution but I don't know if they want them

8 now or later I can provide them at the break but I did already e-mail

9 the -- the one relating to this first witness MLD18, who is scheduled to

10 be the witness this morning.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Thank you, yes.

12 Mr. Groome.

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while I appreciate Mr. Ivetic's candour

14 again this is just one event in a series of -- of events where the

15 Prosecution has not been provided with the material that it's entitled to

16 under the law. We do not have the capacity in this courtroom to

17 instantly print -- print this document. If Mr. Ivetic does have a copy,

18 I appreciate it be given to Ms. Sartorio so that she can be reading it

19 while the witness is testifying.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have a hard copy?

21 MR. IVETIC: Not of the translation. The Defence doesn't have

22 printer here, and the printer's in the Defence room, we're unable to

23 print the document. I could e-mail it perhaps to --

24 MR. GROOME: Mr. --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can the --

Page 4406

1 MR. GROOME: [Overlapping speakers] ...

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy, are you able to -- right.

3 Yes. We'll ask the usher to go out.

4 MR. GROOME: [Overlapping speakers] ... to have it printed.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

6 MR. GROOME: Ms. Sartorio just tells me now though that after

7 looking at briefly it appears that it has some material differences from

8 the 65 ter summary, so again, Your Honour, we're here. We're trying to

9 prepare, I mean, we have an important role to play in helping --

10 assisting the Chamber in ascertaining the truth in this matter; and we're

11 put at a very serious disadvantage when things like this do happen.

12 Your Honour, there's another matter that I would like to raise.

13 Yesterday afternoon, we received the witness list for next week's

14 witnesses. Two of the witnesses on that list are not witnesses that were

15 named on the witness list, filed the 5th of January.

16 While I appreciate the Defence is entitled to submit a motion to

17 amend their list I have not received one as of yet and I am concerned

18 that even if we do, before the close of business today, receive a motion

19 to amend their witness list, it will simply be impossible for us to

20 respond and for the Chamber to reach a decision prior to the time the

21 Defence wants to call these witnesses.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which is when?

23 MR. GROOME: They're schedule for next week. They were notified

24 for next week. I would --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Just a minute. When are these

Page 4407

1 witnesses --

2 MR. ALARID: Basically, Your Honour, we will be filing something

3 a little bit midmorning. We stayed up late last night, trying to

4 reorganise the case, and I think this is the sort of reassessment that's

5 going on based on our inability in the field to talk to some of these

6 fragmented witnesses that we'd hoped to call at the request of Mr. Lukic.

7 And that's a tug-of-war that I've had to go through with an attorney with

8 my client as he wants as many people as he knows out in the field to be

9 contacted and brought in.

10 But I, as an attorney, prefer to deal with this from a criminal

11 law perspective in the witnesses we amended were simply an interpreter

12 and one of the main investigators. So as opposed to having to get

13 someone through both of them are investigators actually at some point.

14 But the reality is we think it's more prudent to do some of the

15 cross-examination of the investigative kind of processes that went on in

16 this case to assess the crimes and with people that of course are in the

17 building and on staff.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. All right, but you're going to file

19 something later today.

20 MR. ALARID: Yes. We tried to get it done, Your Honour, but we

21 had it in draft this morning. We've been up since 6.00 this morning it's

22 really hard --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Get it to us today. We'll consider it. You

24 know, of course, you have to show good cause.

25 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. We hope to do that. But that's

Page 4408

1 where we're at right now.

2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd also want to correct any

3 misapprehension that Mr. Alarid has. One of the investigators, not in

4 the building, he has left the employ of the Office of the Prosecutor. He

5 is currently in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, helping prepare the trial that they

6 are about to start in the coming weeks.

7 I have no idea about his availability. I have not spoken to him

8 since he left here. I also note in the list of exhibits that are

9 intended to be used with him it says and I quote, "All OTP statements in

10 which he has participated in taking," now if that's understood as it's

11 literally written here, Your Honour, Mr. Caine was an investigator for, I

12 think, 7 or 8 years here, worked on the Kosovo case, worked on many cases

13 I only imagine that is dozens upon dozens of statements, many of which

14 may have security issue --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: That obviously would not be granted if --

16 MR. ALARID: No and that was [Overlapping speakers] ...

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... for all OTP

18 statements.

19 MR. ALARID: No, as a matter of fact, it was just the ones he

20 touched. There were six of them that he touched in this case, Your

21 Honour, that would be relevant. That's what I meant. I apologise to

22 Mr. Groome for being too broad.

23 MR. GROOME: Okay. We'll respond when we receive the

24 application.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let the witness be brought in.

Page 4409

1 [The witness entered court]

2 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD18

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't any interpretation in English. Would

7 you try again, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit, and you may begin, Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

13 Q. Good morning, witness. As you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the

14 attorneys for Mr. Lukic in these proceedings. Today for the purposes of

15 the record, I will have to address you as MLD18 in order to preserve the

16 protective measures that have been granted by this Trial Chamber. With

17 the -- with the assistance of the court usher, I will now ask to have

18 handed to you a pseudonym sheet; and, sir, when you get this pseudonym

19 sheet, I will ask you to review the same and note if the personal details

20 for yourself, including your name and date of birth, as to the pseudonym

21 MLD18 are accurate.

22 Do you need your glasses, sir, to review the document?

23 A. Yes. I've left them in my coat pocket.

24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, perhaps I can move forward with

25 another question while we're waiting.

Page 4410

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. Sir, first of all, what is your ethnicity?

4 A. I'm a Serb.

5 Q. And I apologise I'm just waiting for the transcript. It is

6 coming up. Good.

7 And in what municipality and country do you currently reside and

8 in order to preserve your protective measures, I would ask you to refrain

9 from giving an exact address.

10 A. I reside in Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, in

11 Visegrad.

12 Q. And subject to the same caution about revealing your identity, in

13 which municipality did you reside in 1992?

14 A. In Visegrad.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we could return to the pseudonym sheet

16 that is before you, if you could examine the same; and if you could

17 please first verify for us that the information contained as to yourself,

18 including your name and your date of birth, is indeed accurate.

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And if you could look further down on the sheet, do you see that

21 someone else's name that you recognise is listed there with a pseudonym

22 of MLD7 for them? I would ask that if they come up -- if that name comes

23 up during the course of your testimony that you utilise the

24 pseudonym MLD7 rather than the individual's full name. Is that fair and

25 understood?

Page 4419

1 police officers. I remember once or twice he came with Vidoje Andric.

2 Q. And during those occasions in May of 1992, when Mr. Lukic came to

3 where you were posted, did you have occasion to find out or to -- to see

4 what type of uniform he was wearing?

5 A. Milan Lukic, as far as I remember at the time, was wearing a

6 uniform, camouflage uniform. He probably had a number of different sets.

7 I know that at the time it was camouflage. We ourselves were wearing

8 olive-drab uniforms, and there weren't too many people who were wearing

9 camouflage by this time in late May. Most of the soldiers were wearing

10 olive-drab. And then at a later stage, the remaining soldiers, too,

11 started getting camouflage uniforms.

12 Q. What I'm getting at is when you saw him coming either alone or

13 with these other peoples, did you have occasion to ascertain with what --

14 with what organisation in Visegrad he was, at that time, affiliated with,

15 what entity?

16 A. Well, I said he came to the post office several times. I

17 remember that. He hung out with Vidoje Andric, the late Vidoje Andric,

18 and some other people who were with the police.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I wasn't really paying attention to that sort of thing at the

21 time, who was hanging out with whom, but as I say, I remember that --

22 Q. Okay. You have to be careful that you don't speak when my

23 microphone is on, otherwise your voice will be carried out of the

24 broadcast. That's what I wanted to -- to warn you about that.

25 Now, with respect to your knowledge of Visegrad and the time

Page 4420

1 period when the -- prior to -- prior to the war breaking out and the war

2 breaking out, do you have familiarity with a group known as the

3 White Eagles, and if so, when did that group arrive in Visegrad?

4 A. You see, as I said, all of these things that happened before the

5 war, and as I was telling you, on the eve of the war and before

6 hostilities broke out and the Uzice Corps came in, this Bosniak friend of

7 mine took me to Priboj --

8 Q. Sir, sir, sir. Remember we're in open session, so as your giving

9 a -- be careful to not mention locations which could identify your

10 identity. And I apologise. Continue with your answer as to your

11 knowledge of the White Eagles and when they arrived to Visegrad.

12 A. When we returned into town and when the Uzice Corps came, we had

13 this work assignment. We were mobilised in that way for work. We went

14 to work every day, and each day after work, we would go to this cafe, the

15 one that was open. We would assemble there. We would share drinks. We

16 would exchange stories and experiences, who went where, and what, and

17 how, and with whom, and what they did and so on and so forth. And then

18 as I was spending time around town and in that cafe, I saw some people I

19 didn't know who weren't familiar in all sorts of different uniforms with

20 hats, caps; and I heard these people had arrived from Serbia. But the

21 people of Visegrad had called them in and that they were the

22 White Eagles.

23 Q. And with respect to this group call the White Eagles, was, to

24 your knowledge, Milan Lukic ever affiliated with them or commander of

25 such a formation?

Page 4421

1 A. Well, listen, I told you I met Milan Lukic physically, personally

2 in late May when he started to visit me at the post office. I allowed

3 him to make telephone calls. One thing is sure. I don't remember

4 Milan Lukic hanging out with those people who came in after the

5 Uzice Corps. I remember some people who were spending time in cafes

6 calling out nicknames, and Milan Lukic was certainly not one of them or

7 among them at the time.

8 Q. Okay. That's what I want to find out. And with respect to the

9 White Eagles, was it known in the community who the stated commander of

10 that formation was?

11 A. Well, the talk about town and in the town's cafes was that

12 Dejan Jeftic was in charge, was the leader.

13 Q. Now, with respect to your leaving the White Eagles and returning

14 to Milan Lukic and your encounters with him, did you in the course of

15 your encounters with Mr. Milan Lukic in 1992 have occasion -- strike

16 that.

17 Did you have occasion to have encounters with Mr. Milan Lukic in

18 any years after 1992, and if so, under what circumstances?

19 A. I would meet Milan Lukic when he came back from Serbia where he

20 had been in prison. (redacted) So we were

21 neighbours for a while, and we would see each other quite frequently in

22 the pub and also about town.

23 Q. And how -- how large is that building where you resided? How

24 many -- how many apartments or floors, if you know? Again without

25 mentioning the exact floor that you're located on.

Page 4422

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I don't know whether we should redact

4 the portion of where -- where the -- where the pub was located. I don't

5 know if that number of apartments can lead someone to conclude or narrow

6 down who this individual might be in light of the other --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll have it redacted.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Q. Now, could you detail for us your knowledge -- first of all,

10 Mr. Lukic had a pub. Could you detail for us how Mr. -- what your --

11 your encounters with Mr. Lukic in the pub, how was he? How did he react

12 to patrons, et cetera, or interact with patrons?

13 A. We knew each other already because we had met when he came to the

14 post office to make those phone calls, and I knew this relative of his.

15 So we new each other, and we would spend some time there together. He

16 would treat us well. He was very fair to us, and he sometimes offered us

17 drinks. He certainly was extremely fair to me.

18 Q. What about his interactions with other members of the public who

19 were entering the pub?

20 A. Well, as far as I remember, he was respectful to everyone. We

21 paid for some of the rounds and some were offered by him. We would just

22 sit there, spend time there, chat away the hours. So that was the

23 setting for the way in which we socialised. This was a town centre pub,

24 after all.

25 Q. And just to clarify, what year or time period was the pub in

Page 4423

1 operation under the auspices of Mr. Milan Lukic?

2 A. Well, as far as I remember, it could have been late 1993 or

3 perhaps 1994, 1995.

4 Q. Okay. Based on your interactions with Mr. Lukic both during 1992

5 and thereafter, would you consider yourself someone that knew Mr. Lukic

6 well as a person?

7 A. Well, that's a little vague, but the one thing that I can say is,

8 yes, we knew each other, and I knew him.

9 Q. In all that time that you saw or knew Milan Lukic, did he ever

10 have blonde hair or blue eyes?

11 A. Not that I remember. Milan Lukic always had black hair.

12 Q. Did you -- did you ever see him consume alcohol or get drunk?

13 A. To be perfectly honest, in those years of war, there was plenty

14 of soldiers there who drank a lot, and it is perhaps surprising that

15 Milan Lukic never drank, never smoked, and in my presence one thing that

16 I can vouch for is that he never had a single shot of anything or a glass

17 of any sort of alcohol whatsoever.

18 Q. I apologise, sir. We're waiting for the translation and the

19 transcript to catch up with your testimony.

20 Based upon your personal encounters and knowledge of Mr. Lukic,

21 what would be your appraisal of the type of person Milan Lukic was. And

22 how would you describe him including, if you can, any specific instances

23 you recall that symbolise his interactions with -- with civilians or with

24 children, et cetera, persons of other ethnic groups, et cetera?

25 A. Well, listen, as far as I'm concerned and our relationship and

Page 4431

1 Q. Now, if we could again, sir, ask you to detail for us your

2 knowledge of who killed Novica Lukic on around Easter on Mali Vaskrs in

3 2005.

4 A. Well, let me tell you. If I still recall, it was Mali Vaskrs.

5 That's what we call it, we Orthodox Christians; and we went out. We were

6 in town, and we learned that Novica Lukic had been killed, late Novica,

7 Milan's brother. And it was well known that he had been killed by the

8 Special Police because we could read it in the papers later on. It was

9 publicised. And also, these were the Special Police of Republika Srpska.

10 Q. And -- and the Special Police of Republika Srpska, at that time

11 point in time, who was the minister of police and from which political

12 party did he hail?

13 I'm sorry, did we get an answer? I'm not seeing anything in the

14 transcript.

15 Sir, do you recall the political party that was in power, at

16 least in the ministry of the police of the Republika Srpska at that point

17 in time?

18 A. I'm trying to recall the name. I think that the police chief --

19 the police chief's name was, if I can remember -- I think that at this

20 time, the ministry was from the SDS; but the minister's name, I can't

21 real little recall.

22 Q. With respect -- with respect to the house where Novica Lukic was

23 killed, had Milan Lukic ever resided there during the time period that

24 you knew him?

25 A. As I've already mentioned, Milan Lukic resided, lived, in the

Page 4432

1 house above the pub. And I knew the late Novica because he was a

2 co-worker. I used to visit him at his house. When he got married,

3 all -- many of us co-workers went to see them. And also when they had a

4 daughter, we all went to visit him.

5 And I know that Milan Lukic, when he return from Serbia, from the

6 prison, that he lived there in that apartment.

7 Q. And what is the approximate distance between the home where

8 Novica Lukic resided and was killed and this apartment of Milan Lukic

9 where he had resided previously? Where Milan Lukic had resided, I should

10 say.

11 A. Well, I think about two, two and a half kilometres. In my

12 assessment it's about two and a half kilometres away.

13 Q. Thank you. Do -- strike that. And just to back up and clarify

14 one question that I'd missed with respect to the White Eagles, the

15 persons that were in Visegrad known as the White Eagles. Did they -- did

16 those individuals remain in Visegrad the entire duration of the war?

17 A. When the Army of Republika Srpska was established and after the

18 mobilisation, most of these men left one by one. As far as I can recall,

19 they just sort of dispersed one by one, these small groups of men who

20 were there at the time when the Uzice Corps entered, but I didn't see

21 them after that until the end of the war.

22 Q. Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions on direct

24 for this witness, and I pass the witness.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 4441

1 some not. I mean, different types of uniform. Not all of them were

2 wearing the same type of uniform.

3 Q. Do you know if this group carried a banner, a symbol of their

4 group; and if so, can you describe what the banner may have looked like?

5 A. I didn't. I said I saw them there. They stopped by the pub

6 sometimes for a drink. I mean, I say I don't remember them walking about

7 town carrying a banner. For the most part, as I said, I would see them

8 on my way back from work. They stopped by the pub. They weren't

9 familiar, and they weren't from Visegrad. Wearing all sorts of uniforms.

10 They weren't all wearing the same type of clothes or uniform. And people

11 were saying these are the White Eagles that came from some place in

12 Serbia, all sorts of different places. As I said, I didn't see them walk

13 about town carrying a banner.

14 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I'd like the witness to be shown a

15 photograph. It is 0644-6597.

16 Q. Sir, these are the uniforms worn by the White Eagles, is it not?

17 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. Foundation, calls for

18 speculation. She has to ask first if the witness --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't think -- that is really not

20 necessary.

21 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness can say whether he knows or doesn't

23 know. Let's not waste time.

24 Please answer the question.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These fur hats that they wore, I

Page 4442

1 remember that Jelav [phoen] from Priboj was wearing that -- those White

2 Eagles from Priboj. He was wearing a fur cap.

3 MS. SARTORIO:

4 Q. And can you tell us what it says on the banner?

5 A. "With faith in God. Freedom -- freedom," as far as I can tell,

6 "or death." One can't really see very well, but I assume this is an R.

7 Q. And if we can go up to the -- the face of the man on the right of

8 the photograph with the black hat. If we can zoom in on his hat.

9 Sir, you see an emblem on this black hat?

10 A. Yes, but it's not very distinct. I happen to know that the

11 people who were wearing these fur caps wore these coats of arms. I see

12 the outline, and as far as I can tell, there's an eagle on this, and that

13 leads me to conclude that this is an old Nemanjici coat of arms. Two

14 eagle -- two-headed eagle. When I look at the outline, that's how it

15 appears to me.

16 Q. And these men in this photograph, these are members of the

17 White Eagles; is that correct? They're wearing the uniforms of the

18 White Eagles?

19 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you know or can you answer that question,

21 Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I said, those

23 White Eagles, those men who were unfamiliar to me, and they weren't from

24 Visegrad, they would come by the cafe, and they were wearing different

25 kinds of clothes or uniforms. Some looked like this, these fur caps,

Page 4443

1 camouflage. Many of them were just wearing plain clothes. Some were

2 wearing this fur cap. Some were wearing hats. They were wearing all

3 sorts of different clothes. They weren't all wearing the same clothes.

4 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this photograph be

5 admitted in evidence.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P229, Your Honours.

8 MS. SARTORIO: Now I'd like the witness to be shown 0644-6664.

9 This is another photograph. Could you enlarge it just a little bit,

10 please.

11 Q. Sir, you recognise the man in this photograph?

12 A. Yes, Milan Lukic.

13 Q. And this is the same fur cap that you've been describing that was

14 worn by the White Eagles; is this correct?

15 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour, misstates the evidence.

16 They were shown the one photograph, and he said one of the White Eagles

17 wore a hat like this. And then he said that they were sesirs. Again I

18 return, it's a distinction that has to be made that the transcript

19 reflects.

20 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour.

21 MR. IVETIC: Furry cap as opposed to --

22 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour. Your Honour, again, the witness

23 mentioned fur cap several times in his testimony.

24 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. And, Your Honour, I'm entitled to

25 make my objection for the record, and I object to the counsel

Page 4444

1 interrupting my objection. I have a right to state my case for the

2 record.

3 MS. SARTORIO: Well not when you testify and are coaching the

4 witness.

5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, is she supposed to be talking to me?

6 Is she supposed to be talking to me?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Have a seat. Have a seat.

8 MR. IVETIC: Can I continue?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, do you know the fur cap, the fur cap

10 worn by the White Eagles?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see the previous picture

12 that you showed me and this one that I'm looking at now, I mean, fur cap

13 as fur cap, if I --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just attend to the question I've asked you.

15 Attend to the question I've asked you. Listen to the question I'm

16 asking: Do you know the fur cap that is worn by the White Eagles?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, there are different

18 kinds of fur caps. Some people, like, for example, the one that I'm

19 looking at now, to the extent that I could notice the one I noticed a

20 while ago, tapered off towards the top, but this, the insignia,

21 double-headed eagle, this is the ancient coat of arms of the Nemanjic

22 family. On these fur caps this is the sort of thing they wore, the

23 double-headed eagle with a crown. This is an ancient Nemanjic family

24 coat of arms and the subara cap tapers off towards the top, and the flat

25 one is flat.

Page 4445

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.

2 MS. SARTORIO:

3 Q. Is this the same insignia that was on the hat in the previous

4 photograph?

5 MR. ALARID: Objection. Calls for speculation.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: The cap is there. What speculation? It's for

7 him to say whether [Overlapping speakers] ...

8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, he said in the last one he couldn't see

9 the insignia if that is the testimony. He couldn't make out the

10 insignia.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well if he can't make out the insignia, he can't

12 answer the question.

13 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Move on.

15 MS. SARTORIO: Could we enlarge it a little bit further, please.

16 MR. ALARID: Would it be possible to put the previous picture on

17 a side by side since the question was the same as the previous insignia?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you want that done, Ms. Sartorio?

19 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, he can do that on redirect.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, okay.

21 MS. SARTORIO: We also appear to have a better colour

22 photograph -- a better photo of this in our system, Your Honour, and if I

23 may have a moment to speak with my case manager.

24 MR. IVETIC: We've never had a colour one disclosed to us as far

25 as I know.

Page 4446

1 MS. SARTORIO: It's just -- it's exact same picture. It's just a

2 better quality. However, let me just ask the witness.

3 Q. Do you recognise what is on this insignia?

4 A. Well, I said didn't I, this is a double-headed eagle with a crown

5 over it. This is the ancient Nemanjic house, Nemanjic family coat of

6 arms; and many people supported this type of insignia, the double-headed

7 eagle with a crown, the old Nemanjic coat of arms.

8 Q. Can you see if there's a skull and cross-bone on this emblem?

9 Strike that.

10 What other -- can you tell us if any other units wore these types

11 of hats?

12 A. Well, you see, I know from history that in World War II, I mean

13 the Serbian army, the Chetniks who in World War, I were -- I mean, the

14 Chetniks, that was the name used for the Serbian army from World War I,

15 and they wore these types of insignia, the double-headed eagle with the

16 crown, the old Nemanjic family coat of arms.

17 I mean, I didn't see that myself, obviously, in World War II, but

18 I did some reading, and I know that World War I and World War II, the

19 Serbian army, the Chetniks, wearing this type of insignia, the

20 double-headed eagle with the crown.

21 Q. And what units in the 1992, when the wore broke out in Visegrad,

22 what units were wearing these hats?

23 A. Well, let me tell you, I mean which unit -- I mean, the army, we

24 soldiers of Republika Srpska, were wearing this, I mean, olive-drab that

25 we had pre-war reservists; and I mean, there was the -- I mean, then the

Page 4447

1 five-pointed star, and when the war began, meaning not everybody had

2 uniforms at the beginning of the war, and then people used all sorts of

3 different uniforms to wear.

4 As I said, this sort of insignia was, as I said, worn by certain

5 Serbs who felt, I mean, greater Serbs than others, to some extent, and

6 they wore these fur caps with this double-headed eagle, this old coat of

7 arms of the Nemanjic family.

8 Q. Sir, this hat was not a part of the uniform of the police

9 officers of Visegrad, was it?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And this hat was not a regular part of the army uniforms of units

12 of the Republika Srpska; is that correct?

13 A. Well, as I said, at the beginning of the war when there were no

14 uniforms to go around, some soldiers from the regular Army of

15 Republika Srpska were wearing stuff like this, while at the other hand at

16 a later time when this, I mean, command of the Army of Republika Srpska

17 had been established and then for the most part, I mean, it was the

18 three-coloured flag of Republika Srpska and later the camouflage uniform

19 started arriving, and many soldiers continued to wear olive-drab for a

20 long time and then later camouflage.

21 But as I said, some of the soldiers, in a manner of speaking,

22 borrowed these fur caps from their grandfathers and grand-grandfathers

23 and there were some regular soldiers being seen wearing things like

24 these. It wasn't [indiscernible] or anything.

25 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I ask that this photograph be

Page 4448

1 admitted -- oh, I'm not finished. Excuse me. Sorry.

2 Could we -- could we focus in on the emblem on the shirt, please.

3 Q. Sir, are you able to tell us what these words say and what this

4 picture depicts?

5 A. I see the skull, but I really can't read what it says.

6 Q. Sir, do you see the phrase "Srpski Cetnicki Pokret."

7 Do you see that?

8 A. Yes. "Serbian Chetnik Movement." That's what it says.

9 Q. So it says, "Serbian Chetnik Movement." Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes. That's what it says.

11 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, we ask that this exhibit be admitted

12 in evidence.

13 MR. ALARID: Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

15 MR. ALARID: We would object only as much as a lack of foundation

16 based on the timing of the photograph, otherwise qualified by the fact

17 that, of course, this witness did identify Mr. Milan Lukic as being the

18 person in the photograph. We have no objection for those purposes, but

19 we are somewhat concerned about when the photograph was taken.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe there's a sufficient basis for

21 admitting the photograph. The witness has identified the person as

22 Milan Lukic. We'll admit it.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P230, Your Honours.

24 MS. SARTORIO:

25 Q. Now, sir, you came here today -- one of the reasons that you came

Page 4449

1 here today was to testify about the good moral character of Milan Lukic;

2 is that correct?

3 A. Well, listen, I'm not here to -- I mean, that's not the reason I

4 came, to speak about the good character and the morality of Milan Lukic.

5 I came here because I was named as a witness, and I was good friends with

6 the late Novica. I knew Milan as well. I am here to tell the truth the

7 way it is. I'm here to tell you about the Milan Lukic that I know. I'm

8 not here to talk about anything else. My friendship with Milan Lukic in

9 all of this period, Milan Lukic has always been very fair to me and my

10 family. I'm not here to discuss morality or character, which are very

11 broad concepts. But one thing that I can tell you is that he always

12 treated me and my family in an extremely fair way.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you for answering my questions, and I have

14 no further questions.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Sartorio.

16 Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours very briefly. Are we in open

18 session or private session? Open. Thank you.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20 Q. With respect to the White Eagles, sir, you indicated earlier,

21 it's recorded in the transcript -- strike that.

22 It's recorded in the transcript -- let me just get the exact

23 reference so that there is no confusion.

24 It is recorded in the transcript that you said that when they

25 were in the pub they referred to each other using pseudonyms and

Page 4450

1 code-names. This is at page 33, 2. Is that, in fact, what you said?

2 Did you use the term "code-names" or something else?

3 A. I said that they used nicknames. I remember that they called

4 each other Aro [phoen] or Sljivovica. I can't recall them all, all these

5 monikers, but they seldom addressed each other using their first names.

6 They would use nicknames. I remember a man that everyone referred to or

7 called Aro or another one to whom everyone referred as Sljivovica,

8 meaning brandy. Usually they would use nicknames.

9 Q. And with respect to these White Eagles that you saw in the pubs,

10 did you ever see Milan Lukic in their company?

11 A. I said that I saw Milan Lukic for the first time when I met him

12 at the end of May when he came to make a phone call and was introduced by

13 this relative of his. And before that time, I had heard of Milan Lukic

14 but I did not know what he looked like. I didn't know him physically.

15 So we spent a lot of time in the posts office on duty service,

16 but I'm sure that when I met him at the end of May, even if he had been

17 with the White Eagles, once the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad because I

18 did see these men, but I would have known him had I seen him with them.

19 So he was not with them in this time, in this period of time.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. If we can have P229 up on the screen.

21 This is the -- one of the pictures that was shown to the witness by the

22 Office of the Prosecutor.

23 Q. And to clarify the record since the Prosecution did not but left

24 it with their questions making an assertion, the gentleman on the

25 right-hand side of the picture. Hold on one moment.

Page 4451

1 The man on the right-hand side, did you ever see this gentleman

2 with the -- did you ever see this gentleman with the White Eagles?

3 A. I don't know this gentleman at all. I've never seen him.

4 Q. Now, with respect to this hat that this gentleman is wearing,

5 earlier in your testimony, you talked about the White Eagles and the fact

6 that they wore sesirs. Is this --

7 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour.

8 MR. IVETIC: Based on what?

9 MS. SARTORIO: I mean, can he refer to a particular part of the

10 transcript. I would request if he's referring to --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the transcript reference.

12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Gladly. Transcript

13 page 34, line 16 through 19. We have also transcript page 34, 8 through

14 11. And so I'm going to ask for the -- for that portion to be clarified

15 with the witness since again the Prosecution is attempting through -- is

16 wasn't left -- it wasn't clarified with respect to the questions that the

17 Prosecution asked; so I'm entitled to ask it, and I don't think there's a

18 proper objection to it. I could also ask my questions in B/C/S, in which

19 case the same term would be used, and it would be a proper question and

20 it would not be objectionable to. So really, I think, the Prosecution is

21 making an improper objection in this regard.

22 MS. SARTORIO: I didn't mean to make an objection, Your Honour.

23 I just wanted to --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The record --

25 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.

Page 4452

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. Now, with respect to this -- let me restate the question. You --

4 well with respect to this hat that the gentleman on the right-hand side

5 is wearing, is that a sesir?

6 A. No, this is a subara, a fur cap. A hat -- a hat has a brim, but

7 this is a cap that the Serbian folk used to wear in the past. It's a fur

8 cap.

9 As for the people who had come, as I already said, some of them

10 wore a hat, some were bare-headed, but these Whites -- these

11 White Eagles, these were people we didn't know. They came from different

12 parts. And mention was made of some White Eagles who were from somewhere

13 around Priboj, and I know that some of them wore these subaras or these

14 fur caps with insignia, and I think these were the White Eagles from

15 somewhere around Priboj.

16 Q. And just to finish up on that picture, the gentleman on the

17 left-hand side, is he wearing what is referred to in Serbian as a sesir?

18 A. This is a Serbian cap called Sajkaca. On the left hand this

19 soldier has a sajkaca on his head whereas the man on the rights has a

20 subara. As for hat --

21 Q. In the army of the Serb Republic what type of headgear or hat did

22 Serbian officers in the army of the Serb republic wear?

23 A. The officers of the Republika Srpska army wore caps with a blue

24 brim. These were caps with a small --

25 Q. And --

Page 4453

1 A. -- brim in front.

2 Q. And you say they were caps. What type of cap were they in the

3 Serbian terminology? Was it an sesir, subara, sajkaca or something else?

4 A. Neither a hat nor a sajkaca nor a subara but something quite

5 different.

6 Q. And with respect to those hats that were part of the official

7 uniform of the Army of Republika Srpska for officers, what emblem was on

8 the front of those hats?

9 A. When the war broke out, we all still had these green-drab colour

10 uniforms of the former Yugoslav army with five-pronged stars on them.

11 When the war broke out, most of the people took off these stars off their

12 caps, and they didn't have any insignia. I'm of course referring to

13 those who did wear caps because it was not obligatory to wear them.

14 Later on they would wear a flag, the three-colour flag of the Army of

15 Republika Srpska; so they wore any kind of headgear they could get hold

16 on, whatever they had.

17 Q. And with respect to the flag of the Republika Srpska -- pardon

18 me. With respect to the flag of Serbia, what emblem is on the flag of

19 the Republic of Serbia to this day?

20 A. Do you mean the flag or the emblem?

21 Q. Let me -- let me rephrase it back. What coat of arms is on the

22 flag of the Republic of Serbia's flag?

23 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not even sure at this point what

24 the coat of arms of the Republic of Serbia is, but I know that the coat

25 of arms of Republika Srpska is the two-headed eagle.

Page 4454

1 Q. And is the two-headed eagle the same or similar to the Nemanjic

2 crest that you had referred to earlier? How can you -- how can you

3 compare the two?

4 A. As far as I know from my history classes, the ancient emblem, the

5 ancient crest, was the two-headed eagle of the ancient Nemanjic State,

6 and it is still referred to as the Nemanjic coat of arms.

7 Q. And how does that coat of arms of the Nemanjics compare to the

8 official emblem or coat of arms of the Republika Srpska and its organs

9 after -- during that time period?

10 A. They're rather similar, but I think the difference is in that the

11 coat of arms also has the four S's. Now, whether that is the actual

12 difference between these two coats of arms, the Nemanjici coat of arms

13 and the two-headed eagle crest, some of them did -- one of them does have

14 the four S's and the other doesn't.

15 Q. And -- want respect to Milan Lukic and the times that you

16 encountered him in 1992 when he came in to where you were posted in

17 uniform, did you ever see him wearing a furry subara hat?

18 A. No. When he came to make those phone calls, he never had a fur

19 hat on his head. As far as I can recall, he came without any headgear.

20 He was bare-headed and wearing a camouflage uniform. He didn't have

21 anything on his head, no headgear at all, no hats, no subara, no sajkaca.

22 He came without any -- anything on his head, without any insignia on his

23 head. He just came wearing his camouflage uniform.

24 Q. And in those occasions when you had occasion to encounter

25 Mr. Milan Lukic coming into where you were posted, did he at any time

Page 4455

1 wear a long beard?

2 A. As far as I can recall, but I'm not certain, but in my

3 recollection he was clean-shaven. He did not have a beard. I don't

4 recall seeing him with a beard.

5 Q. Just one last thing with respect to Mr. Tripkovic. Are you

6 familiar with any memorials --

7 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour. This goes beyond the

8 scope of cross-examination.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic?

10 MR. IVETIC: I thought that they touched on it at the beginning

11 but I could be mistaken.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not allowed.

13 MR. IVETIC: Okay. In that case, Mr. Witness, I thank you for

14 coming here to testify -- I thank you for coming here to testify.

15 I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank

17 you for giving it. You may now leave.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness, please.

20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we have no further witnesses in

21 The Hague available to testify at this time. I could use this

22 opportunity to clear up the issue with the two filings we had, but --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You should use the opportunity to explain why

24 there are no other witnesses.

25 MR. IVETIC: We did not have witnesses who could be here who had

Page 4456

1 visas in time. We had one witness who was schedule for this week whose

2 visa could not be obtained in time. She -- that witness is schedule to

3 be, I believe, the first or second witness next week on Monday. This

4 week was a difficult week to bring witnesses here. Your Honours have

5 heard testimony that was Jovidan [phoen], the slava, this Tuesday,

6 Wednesday, and Thursday. This is the patron saint slava of most of the

7 population of Visegrad, so there were persons that were engaged in

8 activities relating to that slava and, therefore, could not attend to

9 court this week.

10 We have at least two of those individuals -- pardon me, one of

11 those -- two of those individuals coming this coming week. Additionally

12 we have persons who do not have passports for which we have made

13 applications for passports of the Bosnian authorities to try to get those

14 people ready to travel, and there are a certain number of people on our

15 witness list that I have not been able to find, locate, speak with and

16 obtain their voluntary testimony at this Tribunal.

17 So we, as you might recall, this week had had video -- had had

18 some witnesses I thought that were that were anticipated via videolink.

19 Those are now been continued to another time pursuant to the Court's

20 order, so I -- in terms of the number of witnesses that we had planned to

21 try to accommodate this week, we have to take into account that those two

22 witnesses that had been scheduled are not able to proceed this week, and

23 therefore we have this gap of approximately, I don't know, how many

24 witnesses would have fit in this time perhaps one or two.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Dygeus, Philip.

Page 4457

1 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you know the matter is not as simple

3 as that. It is not sufficient merely to say that the witnesses don't

4 have visas or you have just applied for passports. The question is

5 whether these things have been done in sufficient time, and I need to

6 investigate it --

7 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- to satisfy myself before deducting the time

9 from your account. We cannot continue like this. We have a day with

10 three sessions and now we're ending in the middle of the second session.

11 We could easily have done another witness. And if the investigations

12 that I'm going to undertake reveal that there has been negligence on the

13 part of the Defence, then the time will be deducted from the account of

14 the Defence.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I can only state for the record again

16 in the past month I've been to the region four times. I sometimes travel

17 twice a week to the region to try to find witnesses and obtain witnesses.

18 This is one of the factors that is the result of the -- the case

19 proceeding in the manner that it has, that we have not been able to have

20 personnel in the field that are able to perform the tasks necessary to

21 bring witnesses here. And I'm not going to go into that in detail

22 because I think we've already done that, and I think I would defer to

23 Mr. Alarid --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The court deputy please inform the registrar

25 that I'd like a full account of all the information and the requests that

Page 4458

1 were made of them by the Defence in relation to the attendance of the

2 witnesses for today.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be done, Your Honours.

4 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, you know, by illustration, I'd kind of

5 like to just give a point that sort of shows what we've been having to

6 deal with. Like, for instance, one of the witnesses that came this week,

7 the week before to get that passport in order, we had to put a

8 16-year-old boy on an overnight bus to Visegrad to get it in on time, and

9 a boy goes out and gets a copy and it's as simple as getting that copy;

10 and that copy being essential for what VWS needs to process, you know,

11 this witness.

12 And so it's those kind of -- of unusual steps, I think, that are

13 in a way unprofessional because we don't normally kind of find volunteers

14 to kind of get these things done, but we've been having to resort to do

15 that given our limited resources. So if you want to call it our

16 negligence, I will -- it's not VWS's fault, of course not. They're only

17 able to work with what we give them and in the time-frame we give it to

18 them. But I would say --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is whether you give it to them in

20 sufficient time.

21 MR. ALARID: Absolutely, Judge. And I say that we are just

22 constrained by those kinds of problems that I had hoped a different

23 scheduling of this case or different resources appropriated to this case

24 would have been made better for you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We've always coming back to that, Mr. Alarid,

Page 4459

1 but that issue has been settled. I have been here at the Tribunal long

2 enough to know that Defence counsel are able to get witnesses to court on

3 time.

4 MR. ALARID: We should be.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is the first case in which I have been

6 involved where there is no -- or there has emerged a pattern of

7 non-attendance.

8 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honour, have the other cases been a

9 level 1 under the payment scheme that was instituted by the office of

10 legal aid and detention matters, Your Honour. I've been here a long time

11 as well as Your Honour knows; and I can tell you the differences between

12 the cases are very stark in terms of the personnel and the capabilities

13 that are there, I know that speaking as someone who has been a level 3

14 case and who has had persons full time in the field, something we've not

15 had in this proceeding, and I submit something that makes a great

16 difference as to how we can proceed.

17 MR. ALARID: And I must say, Your Honour, we've made this point

18 to the registry on several submissions that you probably wouldn't be

19 privy to, but simply that nothing had been done from an investigative

20 perspective before my, even, involvement as co-counsel. Then all we were

21 trying to do was get alibis done, then trial started, and we've been

22 doing the best we can during trial. That's the -- that's the stark

23 difference, I think as well, Your Honour.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, if you are not satisfied with the

Page 4460

1 registrar's decision, you have recourse.

2 MR. ALARID: Well, and that's the difficult thing, Judge, because

3 we're so busy here with you. You know how many filings. You've seen

4 them. You've touched them. As we're trying to prosecute this case, we

5 don't have a division or extra attorneys that can sort of breakdown and

6 do that sort of appeals process nor can we slow you down in order to make

7 those kinds of things happen. And of course then it --

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who slows down at all.

9 MR. ALARID: Exactly. We haven't slowed down.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because while the review is being carried out by

11 the President of the Tribunal, incidentally that would not be me, of

12 course, that would be the Vice-President, the trial is proceeding.

13 MR. ALARID: Exactly. And it's over before we get any response

14 and that's kind of, you know, that's kind of been the pattern and

15 practice. And we just know we've just got to get the job done as best we

16 can, and you're not in a position to stop this trial and give us that

17 time nor is the registrar. I mean, we asked over and over and over

18 again, and if we didn't avail ourselves of the proper appeals process is

19 because, quite frankly, in trial, how do you have the time to do that?

20 Those things should be settled well in advance, and they were not

21 settled nor did Mr. Yatvin, prior counsel, make those appeals because of

22 the lack of communication. I can't -- you know, I just feel that my

23 Defence is taking all the blame for something that -- that was a process

24 that's years older than I am in this case. And I've only been able to do

25 the best I can with the resources that I have and the time I have. And I