1 Tuesday, 27 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Your Honour, I'd like to begin my examination of the witness this
9 afternoon with a few questions in private session, if that would be okay,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 4555 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. GROOME:
1 Q. Sir, we are now in open session, so we are going to be
2 broadcasting your answers to the public. Can I ask you, do you know when
3 Milan Lukic left Rujiste?
4 A. No. I had left already. In 1972 I joined the army, and then
5 after that I got a job elsewhere, so I can't tell you when it was that he
6 left Rujiste.
7 Q. Did you recognise Milan Lukic yesterday when you entered the
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. Any difficulty doing that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did Milan Lukic have any relatives that worked in the police, to
13 your knowledge?
14 A. Well, maybe some distant relative, three or four times removed,
15 Sreten Lukic, as far as I know.
16 Q. Anyone other than Sreten Lukic that you're aware of?
17 A. I can't remember right now.
18 Q. Now, are you familiar with an area of Visegrad known as Zupa?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And how many different villages would you say are in the area
21 known as Zupa?
22 A. It's all the way from Prelovo to the Serbian border, a village
23 called Zenica. That's what we refer to as Zupa. There are quite a
24 number of villages, such as Paocici, Rijeka, Pozarcic, and so forth, all
25 sorts of names.
1 Q. Okay, thank you, sir. I'd like to ask you about your evidence
2 about what happened in Kopito on the 13th to the 15th of June 1992, and
3 I'd like to begin that by asking you to make some -- to look at a map.
4 MR. GROOME: And could I ask that the following map be placed on
5 the screen for the witness, and that's ERN 0632-2731.
6 Q. And in a few moments, sir, you'll see a map come up on the screen
7 where you saw photographs yesterday. Once it does come up and you've had
8 a chance to look at it, I'd ask you, do you recognise the area that's
9 depicted in the map?
10 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we enlarge the lower third of the
12 Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in the map, sir?
13 A. Yes, this is this road that we discussed yesterday, Kopito.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would tender an unmarked version of
15 this map before I ask the witness to make any marks on it.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P 233, Your Honours.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask the court usher to assist you in making a
20 few marks on the map. I'm going to ask that the pen be set to blue. I
21 kindly ask you not to make any markings until I completely describe what
22 I would like you to mark. If you do that, hopefully the map will help us
23 understand your testimony better.
24 Now, it seems that you've already identified the road between
25 Visegrad and Kopito. Could I ask you to draw a blue line to indicate the
1 road you took from Visegrad to Kopito on the 13th of June, 1992.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Sir, this map doesn't state where Kopito is. Could I ask you to
4 approximate the location of Kopito by putting a "K" on the approximate
5 location on the road of where Kopito would be?
6 A. It should be somewhere between Sjemec and Borike, around about
8 Q. Could I ask you to put a "K" -- you've drawn a line across that
9 road. Could I ask you to put a "K" next to that line so that we know
10 that is where you intended to mark Kopito.
11 MR. ALARID: And I would object. It appears that he marked on
12 three locations on the map.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that a "K"?
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. Sir, could I ask you to put place a circle around the "K" just so
17 it's clear that it's a "K".
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just to deal with Mr. Alarid's point, perhaps he
21 could explain what the first mark is that he made.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, he made two marks in response to my
23 request to mark the road. I'm going to can him to draw a solid line
24 along the entire road. Perhaps that would clear it up.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Sir, can I ask you to draw a continuous solid blue line from the
3 point of Visegrad all the way to the point in Kopito that you've now
4 marked to indicate the road that you took on the 13th of June.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. It seems you've stopped short of Kopito. If the "K" indicates
7 Kopito, I would ask you to draw the line all the way to where you've
8 marked Kopito.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, yesterday in your testimony, you referred to a place known
11 as Tabla. Can I ask you to put a "T" next to the place in the road where
12 Tabla was located. Maybe draw a line across the road as you did with
13 Kopito to indicate the precise location.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think it misstates the evidence to
15 the precise location with respect to Kopito. He said approximately here.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's noted. Let's move on.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Sir, are you able to put a "T" next to the road where -- the
19 approximate location of where Tabla is located.
20 A. It should be somewhere between Gornja Lijeska and Donja Lijeska,
21 closer to Donja Lijeska than to Gornja Lijeska.
22 Q. Can I ask you to circle that "T", sir.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Now, sir, to help us assist us in making sense of your markings
25 at a later date, am I correct in saying the circle indicating Tabla is
1 the circle that's closer to the town of Visegrad, and the circle for
2 Kopito is the one that's further away from Visegrad. Is that correct?
3 A. Tabla is closer to Visegrad than to Kopito.
4 Q. Now, is it your evidence that Commander Tripkovic was killed at
5 Tabla, or is it a different location that I need to ask you to mark?
6 A. Right at that bend, and Tabla is just by the road there.
7 Q. And I'm going to ask you to make one more marking in blue. I'm
8 going to ask you to put the initials "ML" with a circle around it to
9 indicate where it was that you saw Milan Lukic.
10 A. I should locate Bikavac first.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: The question ought to be -- define as to what time
13 he testified to seeing Milan Lukic at several times throughout the 13th
14 to the 15th. So, Your Honour, to be fair to the witness, we should
15 narrow it down in terms of which time period.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, if you can be a little more
18 MR. GROOME: I will, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, perhaps it's not even necessary to mark this. When you
20 stayed overnight with Milan Lukic, that was in Kopito; correct?
21 A. We spent two nights together at Kopito.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. I don't believe I need to ask you to mark
24 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that the pen be change to red now.
25 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to draw a second line now, and it may
1 very well be right along the lines or in part along the lines that you've
2 just testified that, but I want to see if you can help us with this.
3 If someone were to drive from Visegrad in the direction of Sjemec
4 mountain, could you draw the road that they would take.
5 A. The same road that I marked in blue.
6 Q. You now have a red pen. Could I ask you just -- for the sake of
7 clarity, just draw a red line now right along the blue line from Visegrad
8 to Sjemec mountain.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, sir, if the a person was then to continue on from Sjemec
11 mountain to the town of Seljani
12 that they would take from Sjemec mountain?
13 A. I apologise. What was the place that you mentioned?
14 Q. The place that I'm asking you to draw to is Seljani, and that's
16 A. I have heard of that place, but I don't know where that is.
17 Q. How about Olovo? Do you know where that is?
18 A. I'm not sure about that. I think it's past Sarajevo or in the
19 general Sarajevo
20 Q. Okay sir. I won't ask you to make any marks for which you're not
21 certain. Thank you very much.
22 MR. GROOME: And Your Honour, at this time I tender the marked
23 map as an exhibit.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P 234, Your Honours.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Now, sir, if I remember your testimony correctly from yesterday,
3 you said that this was the only combat operation that you were involved
4 in during the course of your military service; correct?
5 A. With Milan
6 Q. And that is one of the reasons why you have such a clear memory
7 of it; correct?
8 A. That's one of the reasons, but the principal reason, I remember
9 this, is this was the first time I had ever seen anything like this, a
10 car on fire, the one in which Vlatko Tripkovic and Novica Savic were
12 Q. Now, you testified that on the morning of the 13th, you were
13 working up on the right bank of the Drina
14 Prelovo, Rujiste. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that your commander came up there in a Lada Niva and told you
17 to get in and that you were going to Kopito to lay an ambush. Is that
19 A. No. A driver came in a Lada Niva and told the komandir to pick
20 us up and that we should be on our way to the command, but that was all
21 we knew.
22 Q. Well, sir, let me read you a portion of your testimony yesterday
23 that seems to what you're saying now. And this is at transcript 4543.
24 Mr. Ivetic asked you:
25 "Now could you detail for us how it was you came to be involved
1 in this action in the region of Kopito in Visegrad municipality beginning
2 the 13th of June, 1992?"
3 To that question, you answered:
4 "A Lada Niva came, and the commander told me to get in the car
5 and we should go because we needed to go up to Kopito as the Muslim
6 soldiers were passing on the Gorazde-Zepa, Zepa-Gorazde road, and they
7 had the even set fire to some houses up there, and we had to set up an
9 Do you remember yesterday being asked that question and giving
10 that answer?
11 A. That was what we were told at the command. When we arrived at
12 the command, this news was conveyed to us, and not at the same place
13 where our positions were or where I was taking up positions.
14 Q. So it's your evidence today that at the time you were up on guard
15 duty, you were not told what you were being asked to do. It was not
16 until you reached the command in Bikavac that you were told; is that
17 correct? Is that your evidence today?
18 A. Yes. That's where we were told where we'd be going next, but
19 while I was guarding that other area down there when they came to pick us
20 up, all they told us at the time was that we would be going to the
21 Bikavac command.
22 Q. How long did it take you to drive from where you were on guard
23 duty to the command centre at the Bikavac hotel that morning?
24 A. 40 to 45 minutes.
25 Q. Did you drive through the village of Koritnik
1 A. No. Koritnik was on my left. As we drove past on our way from
2 the position to Bikavac, Koritnik would have been on the left side, but
3 we wouldn't pass it in our way.
4 Q. Did you drive through the village of Greben
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see anything unusual in the village of Greben
7 A. No, nothing.
8 Q. Now, if I could take you to the time in front of the Bikavac
9 hotel. You testified that you saw Milan Lukic in front of the Bikavac
10 hotel when you arrived there. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And further, you testified that after you arrived in Visegrad on
13 the 1st of May, you had not seen Milan Lukic until this point in time,
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. It seemed from your evidence yesterday that you were surprised
17 when you saw him there. Is that correct?
18 A. Surprised? Maybe not surprised, but it had been some time, so
19 I'm not sure if I would call it a surprise, but we hadn't seen each other
20 for some time.
21 Q. Let me ask the question in this way: Had anyone told you that
22 Milan Lukic had returned to Visegrad and had taken up arms?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So, sir, it's your evidence that you returned on the 1st of May,
25 and this is now the 13th of June, six weeks later. It's your evidence
1 that you never saw Milan Lukic in the six weeks between your return and
2 this day, the 13th of June, correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Now, yesterday you testified about the older Milan Lukic and the
5 younger Milan
6 50s in 1992. Is that not correct?
7 A. Probably. He was an elderly person. He had a family, grown-up
8 children. I think he was born in the 1930s, 1935, possibly 1936, but
9 don't hold me to it, give or take a year or two, but he would have been
10 aged about 50 at the time, I think.
11 Q. So MLD4, would you agree with me that it would not be likely for
12 someone to confuse the older Milan Lukic with the younger Milan Lukic,
13 would it?
14 MR. IVETIC: Objection, calls for speculation.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why don't you ask him whether he would have
17 confused the older Milan Lukic with the younger.
18 MR. GROOME: I will do that, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, is there any possibility that if you saw both Milan Lukices,
20 that you would possibly confuse one for the other?
21 A. No way, no way.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, the older Milan Lukic, was he starting to
23 have some gray in his hair?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was he -- sorry. Was he balding?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, back to this mission, the purpose of this mission was, as
3 you told us yesterday, to lay an ambush for some Muslim soldiers you
4 expected to cross the Visegrad-Rogatica road. Is that not correct?
5 A. No, Zepa-Gorazde, Gorazde-Zepa, that road.
6 Q. But it was the information you were given were that Muslim
7 soldiers using the road between Gorazde and Zepa would cross over the
8 Visegrad-Rogatica road, and that's where you wanted to lay an ambush;
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Now, yesterday in your -- well, at this stage, the road is not
12 blocked. Is that correct? The road from Visegrad to where you were
13 supposed to go on this mission, you had no information that this road was
14 blocked in any way, did you?
15 A. We passed through that -- along that road and reached Kopito
16 without any problems.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, the place that you intended to ambush them,
18 yesterday you described it as a path going between Gorazde and Zepa, and
19 I believe you referred to it or that you called it or is commonly
20 referred to as a goat path. Is that correct?
21 A. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. Is it a path that a truck or a bus could drive along?
23 A. No, no, no. Only a man mounted on a horse or a donkey or on
25 Q. Now, I want to take you to the point in time where you're at
1 Kopito. When you arrived at Kopito, you were met by Vlatko Tripkovic,
2 who introduced himself to you; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the first time you saw him that day was in Kopito; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He was not down at the command in the Bikavac hotel in Visegrad
7 town, was he?
8 A. On that morning when we set out, no, he wasn't.
9 Q. And you're sure of that; correct?
10 A. I'm a hundred per cent sure.
11 Q. Thank you. And you also testified that you met Novica Savic up
12 there at Kopito as well. Is that not correct?
13 A. Yes. The two of them met us up there with two or three other
14 local men.
15 Q. And Novica Savic was not down in the Bikavac hotel command
16 earlier in the day, was he?
17 A. No. No, he wasn't.
18 Q. Now, it's not clear for me from your testimony yesterday about
19 the person you referred to as Perica Markovic. Where did you see him for
20 the first time that day?
21 A. On that morning in front of the command at Bikavac.
22 Q. So he was in Bikavac, and he travelled up with the group to
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Now, you then testified that at some point, Tripkovic went to
1 Visegrad sometime on the 13th, and it was sometime after you had arrived
2 in Kopito, correct?
3 A. He -- well, Novica Savic deployed us on one side of that road,
4 Tripkovic on the other, and they discussed something with Perica
5 Markovic. Later on, we received an order from Perica who said that he
6 was in charge of the action, and the other two said, We are going to
7 Visegrad for the briefing.
8 Q. Were you present -- were you present when Tripkovic said to the
9 men that he was going to Visegrad for the briefing?
10 A. No. We were already deployed. It was Perica Markovic who told
11 us afterwards that Tripkovic and Savic had gone off to Visegrad for the
13 Q. Now, the communications equipment that Tripkovic had, was that
14 communications equipment that he carried with himself?
15 MR. IVETIC: I object, Your Honour. Calls for speculation -- it
16 calls for speculation, and I don't think proper foundation has been laid
17 for this type of question for this witness.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, are you able to answer the question
19 whether the communications equipment that Tripkovic had was equipment
20 that he carried with himself?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw Tripkovic with a Motorola,
22 and as for whether he had something in the car, and if he did, what it
23 was, I couldn't say. Because the car was some distance away from us, I
24 did not approach it, nor did I see what's inside it.
25 MR. GROOME:
1 Q. And it's your evidence that that was the only radio
2 communications equipment that was present at Kopito at that time. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes. That's what I saw. I don't know if someone had something
5 else, but I didn't see it if they did.
6 Q. So is it possible that other people who went with you to Kopito
7 had other sets of radio communications equipment?
8 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. Calls for speculation and
9 misstates the evidence.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask another question, Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Sir, is it your evidence that on the eve of an important
13 operation in Trivkovic's area of responsibility, that he set out to drive
14 to Visegrad to speak with his superiors rather than to simply talk to
15 with them on the radio that he had with him? Is that your evidence?
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, again, it misstates the evidence. He
17 stated that his knowledge of this --
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, these objections are just meant to
19 coach the witness.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the witness answer this question.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Is that your evidence, sir, that, rather than just call up the
23 superiors in Visegrad on the radio, he decided on the eve on an important
24 engagement to drive down there and speak to them in person?
25 A. At certain times, they held briefings in the command with a
1 Brigade commander, and we did not see this as a big action. It was more
2 like a barricade, if those men came along to stop them and prevent them
3 from passing through there and prevent them from making an incursion as
4 they had done previously in other places and burned down houses. We
5 didn't see this as an important action. We simply saw this as setting up
6 a barricade.
7 Q. Now, sir, did you see anyone else in the group that went with you
8 from Bikavac to Kopito with radio equipment? Did you see anyone else
9 with radio equipment?
10 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour. Asked and answered three
11 times already.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Answer the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see that anyone had radio
15 MR. GROOME:
16 Q. At other military operations that you were engaged in, would it
17 have been common practice to go out into the field to conduct an
18 operation without having radio equipment with you? Is that something
19 that you've seen in other times that you've gone out on engagements?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: I'll object as to relevance and as to this
22 witness -- foundation being laid as to what the common practice was.
23 This witness testified --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The objection is baseless.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Sir, please answer the question. Were you ever on another
3 operation where you went out to do an engagement in the field and did not
4 carry radio equipment with you?
5 A. When actions are being set up, and I'm repeating that this was a
6 sort of barricade, but when actions were mounted, there were people there
7 who had communications equipment. I, as an ordinary private, never had
8 such equipment, nor did I ever carry it.
9 Q. What time of the day was Tripkovic killed?
10 A. Well, it might have been between 10 and 11.00, perhaps, around
11 11, probably.
12 Q. In the morning or in the -- at night?
13 A. In the morning, about 11 in the morning.
14 Q. So Tripkovic would have been killed about 10 in the morning of
15 the 13th; correct?
16 A. Well, more like 11.00 in the morning of the 13th.
17 Q. How long does it take to get from the Bikavac hotel to Kopito?
18 MR. ALARID: Objection as to foundation. Clarification as to
19 mode of transport.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you stop these objections which really have
21 no base? It's for the witness to answer the question. If he can't
22 answer it, then he can't answer it.
23 MR. GROOME:
24 Q. How long would it take to get from Bikavac hotel to Kopito?
25 A. Well, if you have a passenger car, a small one, maybe 40 minutes.
1 Q. And how long was Tripkovic in your presence before you no longer
2 saw him on the day of the 13th?
3 A. Maybe some 30 minutes.
4 Q. How did you find out that Commander Tripkovic had been killed?
5 A. We learned that on the 14th from Goran Djeric.
6 Q. And did Goran Djeric tell you how he learned it?
7 A. The Visegrad and Rogatica Brigades had communications, and from
8 Bikavac you can see the smoke, and you can see the license plate, so they
9 probably observed to see what was happening, and they called up
10 Tripkovic, and he probably didn't respond, but all this is an assumption
11 on my part. Probably he failed to respond and then they contacted the
12 Rogatica Brigade.
13 Q. Sir, is it your evidence that from the Bikavac command centre, it
14 would be possible to read the license plate of the car where -- the burnt
15 car where Tripkovic was killed?
16 A. No. No. But they could see the flames. They couldn't maybe
17 even tell what sort of car it was, but they would be able to see the
18 flames of the car burning, and probably they would have heard shooting as
20 Q. How far is the location where Tripkovic was killed to Bikavac?
21 A. As the crow flies, maybe less than 2 kilometers uphill, less than
22 2 kilometers as the crow flies, and along the road, 5 or 6 kilometers,
23 because it's a winding road. It winds is lot.
24 Q. And is it your evidence that you would be able to discern a car
25 from Bikavac hotel?
1 A. No, no, no. I said maybe they wouldn't be able to discern the
2 car, let alone the license plates.
3 Q. On the 14th, after you learned that Tripkovic had run into
4 difficulties, did you and the men in Kopito ever make an attempt to reach
5 the place where Tripkovic was to see if any of the three men were still
7 A. No. We didn't move from there. I don't know why.
8 Perica Markovic was probably in charge of all that. He didn't move us
9 from there. He didn't tell us to go anywhere else, so we remained there
10 that night, also, at Kopito.
11 Q. So to your knowledge, no one, not even a scout, went out to try
12 to determine if the three men who had come under attack could be safely
13 reached? Is that correct?
14 MR. ALARID: Objection, calls for speculation and assumes facts
15 not in evidence.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the question is "to your knowledge."
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, answer the question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat your question,
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. So to your knowledge, not a single soldier, not even a scout,
22 tried to make their way down to where Tripkovic had been attacked to see
23 if you could reach him, if it was possible to reach him? Is that
25 A. No, no. From where we were, no one did. I think it was those
1 from Visegrad who set out. We didn't move from the place where we were.
2 Q. So, sir, if that's true, then no one in your group knows for a
3 fact that the road ahead towards Visegrad is blocked. Is that not
5 A. No, none of us knew. If someone had known, probably something
6 would have been done about it, but we didn't know.
7 Q. Sir, I'm asking you after Djeric comes and tells you that
8 Tripkovic has been attacked between where you are and Visegrad, no one
9 attempts to go and see if they can offer assistance to Tripkovic or the
10 other men. Is that your evidence?
11 MR. ALARID: Object, it's been asked and answered.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it was already answered.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, but I'm clarifying. He has just said,
14 We didn't know. It seems that he's confused the period of time before he
15 knew about Tripkovic. To be precise, I'm asking him after he learned
16 about Tripkovic, is it true that no one made an attempt to go to these
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the answer?
19 MR. GROOME:
20 Q. Sir, can you answer that question? After you learned of
21 Trivkovic's attack, did anyone make an attempt to get to him?
22 A. We were only told that something was going on down there because
23 the communications had been cut off. We didn't know what it was that was
24 going on down there. We didn't know what had happened to Tripkovic. We
25 only knew that there was something going on and that the communications
1 had been cut off, and then the Visegrad and Rogatica Brigades got in
2 touch with each other, but we did not know what had happened. We didn't
3 know what had happened to Tripkovic.
4 Q. Sir, now I want the take you to the 15th. You testified that you
5 were told by Goran Djeric that you would go towards the direction of
6 Visegrad on the 15th. When you met up with the soldiers coming from
7 Visegrad, I took from your testimony yesterday that you seemed to meet
8 right at the place where Tripkovic had been attacked. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, correct. We found those lads from Visegrad. They were
10 already there when we arrived.
11 Q. Between where Kopito and the place where you met the troops from
12 Visegrad, did you encounter any blockages of the road?
13 A. No.
14 Q. On the 15th, where there any encounters with the enemy? Were any
15 enemy soldiers captured or injured?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were any members of the men either from Kopito or from Visegrad
18 that day, were any of them captured or killed?
19 A. Not on that day, no.
20 Q. Did they report, the soldiers from Visegrad, did they report
21 encountering any blockage of the road between Visegrad and the place
22 where you met them?
23 A. I wouldn't know that. I can't say that. They didn't tell me.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of someone from the group that came
25 up from Visegrad saying to you or saying in your presence that the road
1 had been blocked on their way up? Do you have any recollection of that?
2 MR. ALARID: Asked and answered.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did they already answer that, Mr. Groome?
4 MR. GROOME: I don't believe he has, Your Honour. He may have
5 asked and answered on the direct examination but certainly -- on the
7 MR. IVETIC: It's the answer right before your question, counsel.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You asked:
9 "Did they report, the soldiers from Visegrad, did they report
10 encountering any blockage of the road between Visegrad and the place
11 where you met them?"
12 And he says: "I wouldn't know that. I can't say that. They
13 didn't tell me."
14 MR. GROOME: Now I'm asking Your Honour, did anyone say that in
15 his presence that they didn't tell him directly?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Very well.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Did you hear anyone from that group in your presence say that
19 they had encountered a blockage in the road between Visegrad and where
20 Tripkovic lay dead?
21 A. I'm not aware of that, no.
22 Q. So, sir, to recap your evidence with respect to the blockage of
23 the road, on the 13th when you travelled up there, there was no blockage
24 in the road; correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And when you travelled back towards Visegrad on the 15th, there
2 was no blockage in the road; correct?
3 A. Correct. We were on our way from up there on foot. The cars
4 were left behind us, and we arrived down there on foot, and there we met
5 up with those lads from Visegrad, and from there we got in our cars and
6 drove to the command at Bikavac.
7 Q. And, sir, on the 14th, you don't know whether there was a
8 blockage in the road because no one from your group ever made an attempt
9 to try to get to Tripkovic. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Sir, now, you were asked to comment on a photograph yesterday.
12 I'm going to ask that that photograph be shown to you again. It's P 229.
13 Could I ask that it be placed on the screen.
14 While it's being called up, I want to ask you a couple of
15 questions. The question I want to ask you is, did you recognise these
16 men immediately, or were you prompted in any way with respect to their
18 A. These people in the photograph?
19 Q. Yes.
20 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we zoom in to the image itself.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I'm not very clear. Did he
22 recognise them when?
23 MR. GROOME: Yesterday during his examination-in-chief, Your
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Yes. Did you recognise them immediately, or were you prompted in
3 any way?
4 A. I recognised them in the photograph, yesterday and now. After a
5 while, I'm not sure when exactly, these same two men were killed in this
6 car somewhere around Gornja Lijeska. They got blown up by an anti-tank
7 mine, and they were killed on the spot.
8 Q. Were they present on the 13th of June up in Kopito?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you tell us about the banner they're carrying? Is that
11 something that the Territorial Defence of the Army of Republika Srpska
12 would carry and display, something like that?
13 A. I don't know about that. This is not the banner used by the Army
14 of Republika Srpska. They just pick this up somewhere or other, and then
15 they took a photograph, and I don't think I can identify the location.
16 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we zoom in to the portion of the
17 van just above the flag or the banner.
18 Q. And, sir, could I ask you to read what's written in Cyrillic
19 right next to the person that you identified yesterday as Josip.
20 A. The lower part of the banner or ...
21 Q. No, I'm talking about the painted writing on the front of the
22 van, just above the banner.
23 A. As far as I can tell, it reads: "Josip."
24 Q. So it actually has his name on the van; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what's the painted writing on the other side of the van next
2 to the person you identified as Steva, I believe, or Stevan?
3 A. I can't see. If we can perhaps zoom in.
4 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we take it out of negative image
5 and see if that makes it any more readable.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can tell, it
7 reads "Stevan."
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. But it's your evidence that you did not need the assistance of
10 what's painted on the van. You had an independent recollection of these
11 men because you knew both of them from that time period; correct?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Sir, I want to show you some other photographs from the same
14 court file in Serbia
15 people. The next picture I'd like to you look at is 0644-6678.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, for the record, I have to state that
18 these documents were disclosed to us for use in cross-examination at 2.19
19 this afternoon, after court had started. They were not disclosed to us
20 in compliance with the Court's order that the exhibits for
21 cross-examination were to be given at the time that the witness takes the
22 stand, and I'm just making that for the record since there was such a big
23 deal about when photographs were disclosed yesterday, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is part of the problem with the
1 sparse parsimonious of 65 ters that we get. It was only during the
2 course of his testimony that there was any indication that this man was
3 going to be able to identify these people. I think the Chamber is well
4 aware that it had been the practice of the Prosecution that if for some
5 reason a witness was going to give evidence like that, there would have
6 been a proofing note provided to counsel so they could properly prepare
7 for it. So at the time that I was supposed to advise what documents I
8 was going use in cross-examination, I still had no idea that this man was
9 going to testify that he knew some of the people in this photograph.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, counsel is saying, Mr. Ivetic, that it
11 arises from the lack of information on the part of the Defence.
12 MR. IVETIC: And --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I will do, is I'm going to allow the
14 questioning, and if you can satisfy me that you're in any way prejudiced,
15 then I'll consider what to do.
16 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely, Your Honour, that's why I said only for
17 the record. Without knowing what questions are going to be asked, I
18 don't know whether I'll be embarrassed, but for the record, I do have to
19 state the reason this wasn't in the 65 ter summary was, again, these
20 photographs given to us by the Prosecutor were not given to us until just
21 recently. So they were not available at the time the 65 ter was made to
22 even know whether any of the witnesses had knowledge of it. This flows
23 from the fact that the Office of the Prosecution disclosed these
24 documents to us in a late manner if.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, not to rehearse the entire disclosure
1 history, but it does bear if a statement like that is going to be made on
2 the record. The file that this is from is 65 ter number 63 from the
3 Milan Lukic Defence exhibit list. It is the judgement from Severin. At
4 the end of last year, the Prosecution notified the Defence that we were
5 in possession of this large file, that we were in the process of
6 reviewing for 66(A)(ii) and 60(A). We also offered to them the
7 opportunity to come look at the documents, to look at the file if they
8 chose. Under 66(B), it's up to them then to ask that they would like us
9 to see photographs, to see these documents. They were available to the
10 Defence. The fact that they did not come and look at them is not
11 something that should prejudice the Prosecution.
12 Q. Sir --
13 MR. IVETIC: I won't respond. I will only say for the record
14 this is not 65 ter from the Milan Lukic list. That is only judgement,
15 the only document we received with respect to this.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. I've already found a way of
17 resolving the issue, and I've given my ruling. Let us proceed.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Sir, I'd ask that you take a look at 0644-6678, and tell us, do
20 you recognise the person in the photograph?
21 MR. GROOME: We could zoom in on all of these if we could zoom in
22 to the image, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Who do you recognise it to be?
1 A. This is Milan Lukic, the same man we see over there.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I tender this photo into evidence as a
3 Prosecution exhibit.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 235, Your Honours.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. Sir, I'd ask you now to take a look at Exhibit 06 --
8 MR. ALARID: A technical matter. Do we know exactly when this
9 photo was taken for purposes of just placement? Accepting the
10 identification of the photo by the witness.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's a good point. Could you try and
12 establish that, Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the providence of the photographs is
14 dealt with in the Severin judgement. I can ask this witness -- I don't
15 believe that he was present when it was taken, but I can ask him a
16 question that may be helpful.
17 Q. Sir, can I ask you, based on the appearance of Milan Lukic, what
18 he's wearing and his age, is this how you remember him in 1992?
19 A. I remember him in camouflage uniform with the writing, "police,"
20 on the left arm. As for this photograph, I couldn't explain that.
21 Q. Well, I'm asking more for your view of his appearances -- your
22 estimation of his age. Thinking back to your recollection of him from
23 the period from 1992 when you had encounters with him, does he appear to
24 be approximately the same age?
25 A. I couldn't really answer that question specifically.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Could I ask that you take a look at
2 0644-6596, and these are all photographs from the same series of
3 photographs, and my question will be the same for each of them, whether
4 you recognise anyone. The person I'm interested in you taking a look at
5 is the woman in fatigues on the left.
6 A. I can't identify anyone.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. Could I ask you to take a look at 0644-6604.
8 Do you recognise this man?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Could I ask you, please, to take a look at 0644-6584.
11 Do you recognise this man?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Now, sir, we've been provided with a number of documents by the
15 Defence relating to the event that you've testified to. I'm going to
16 show you these documents and ask you whether you recall ever seeing these
17 documents during the time that you served in the Army of Republika
19 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that Defence Exhibit 65 ter 44 be placed
20 on the screen. I can provide the 1D number if that's more helpful.
21 Sorry, that's not the document that I was asking to show. Can I try the
22 1D number. 1D 22-0175.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: I had to wait to see which exhibit it was that's
25 coming up. It's the one that I thought it was. The question that's
1 being posed is during the time that you served in the Army of Republika
2 Srpska. This document is clearly not an army document, so I think there
3 has to be foundation laid as to whether this witness has any knowledge of
4 documents that are not from the Army of Republika Srpska. The question
5 implies this would be an army document, but looking at what's coming up
6 on the screen, this is a police document, not an army document.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm simply asking the witness whether
8 he'd seen it. Mr. Ivetic led extensive evidence yesterday that police
9 and military engaged in a joint operation on the 13th to the 15th. I'm
10 simply asking this witness, has he seen this document before.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let him answer.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. Have you seen this document before?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. Could I ask you to take a look at 65 ter 45, and
16 my question to you is the same. Did you recognise having seen this
17 document related to the Kopito incident before?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Can I ask you to take a look at 65 -- Defence 65 ter exhibit 46.
20 That's 1D 22-0179. Ask you, do you recall seeing this document related
21 to the Kopito event prior to today?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the documents have been on the screen
24 now that the witness has said he hasn't seen before do not relate to
25 Kopito, so I don't know what documents these are. I don't know if these
1 are the ones Mr. Groome is asking about or ...
2 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we check -- we have it down as
3 Exhibit 45 from the 65 ter list of the Defence. The 1D number is
4 1D 22-0177.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, you have now exceeded the time used
6 by the Defence by about ten minutes. How much longer do you anticipate
8 MR. GROOME: No more than 15 minutes, Your Honour. I have two
9 important areas of inquiry to make.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And then, sir, 1D 22-0179. It's coming up on the screen now, and
15 simply, do you recognise this document?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you for that, sir.
18 And finally, the last document that I'd like to show you that we
19 were supplied by the Defence in support of what happened in Kopito is
20 Y019-1568. Could I ask you to take a look at this document and tell us
21 whether you recognise this document.
22 Sir, we were not provided with an English translation of this by
23 the Defence, but it is a list of soldiers -- it purports to be a list of
24 soldiers -- police officers sent up to Kopito on the 13th of June, did
25 you see -- have you seen this document before?
1 A. I've never seen this document before. But --
2 Q. Sir, this document was introduced as a Defence exhibit, 1D 25. I
3 want to draw your attention to number 7 on this document. If this
4 document were to be true, it seems that it would contradict your evidence
5 about first seeing Novica Savic up in Kopito. According to this
6 document, he was dispatched from Visegrad up to Kopito on the 13th. Do
7 you have any comment on that?
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour, calls for speculation. I
10 have a further objection, but I don't know if -- I don't want to be
11 accused of lead the witness, but there's other testimony that we've had
12 here before us.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can introduce that. [Overlapping speakers].
14 MR. IVETIC: Should I finish my objection?
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. What is it? To rehabilitate the
17 MR. IVETIC: No, I don't think the witness has been damaged in
18 any way, but to clarify the objection to the question, as it misstates
19 the evidence as to -- well, again, I don't want to say anything that
20 could be construed as leading evidence -- leading the witness, Your
21 Honour, but --
22 MR. GROOME: Then, please, Your Honour, I'm just asking the
23 witness if the fact that this report causes him to change his answer
24 about seeing Novica Savic up in Kopito and not seeing him in Visegrad
25 town. It's a simple question.
1 MR. IVETIC: And, again, Your Honour, that question implies that
2 there's one Novica Savic.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Sir, can you tell us about the other Novica Savic?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness answer the question.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There probably is one, since that
7 name's on the list. But what I was saying is that I never had access to
8 any of these lists or documents.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 A. As for number 7, oh, yeah, there probably is a person like that
13 Q. Sir, prior to Mr. Ivetic telling you that there were more than
14 one Novica Savic, did you have personal knowledge of more than one person
15 being named Novica Savic?
16 A. No. I did not know a man like that.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 A. But there probably is one since --
19 Q. Since counsel said there was. I want to show you now your
20 statement from the 7th of April, 2008. It's statement Y018-2198. It's
21 going to be pulled up in front of you, and my question to you is, it
22 seems that it was sworn or notarised on the 7th of April, 2008. Is that
23 correct? Is that your recollection of when you signed this statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When was your first meeting with Jelena Rasic?
1 A. I think on or about the 7th of April.
2 Q. Had you had any prior meeting with her prior to the day you
3 signed this statement?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you have any telephone conversation with her where you
6 described your evidence and what you would be able to give evidence about
7 related to the 13th or the 15th of June?
8 A. No. We spoke on the phone, but just for me to confirm whether I
9 was willing to see her and whether I was willing to give evidence, so she
10 came to see me at my place on the 7th, and we drew up this record or
12 Q. And that was the 7th of April, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And where did you go to have it signed, the official stamp that
15 we see on it? Where was that done?
16 A. In new Belgrade
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender this
18 statement under seal.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, under seal.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 236 under seal, Your Honours.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would also at this time tender a
22 redacted version of the statement. We've removed all of the identifying
23 information from the statement. I would tender that into evidence as a
24 public exhibit.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, subject to reviewing the redactions, I
1 would be able to comply, but I can't without having seen the document,
2 know whether all the redactions are satisfactory to the Defence.
3 MR. GROOME: I have no objections, and we'll do that during the
4 break, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. Sir, now, we were also provided with a statement purporting to be
8 yours taken from you on the 2nd of March, 2008. Now, Mr. Alarid only
9 provided me with the English version and not a Serbian version, so there
10 is no original that I can show you. But I'm going to call up to you the
11 English one, and I want to discuss it with you.
12 MR. GROOME: Can I ask the usher to call up Y018-2205, and if the
13 usher could please go to the bottom of the second page.
14 Q. Sir, while we're waiting for the document to be called up, do you
15 read any English at all? If not, I will read the relevant portion to
17 A. No.
18 Q. When it appears on the screen, I'll read the portion I want to
19 draw to your attention.
20 MR. IVETIC: For the record, Your Honour, this appears to be the
21 draft translation offered by the Defence in compliance with the original
22 deadline for providing the alibi statements at that time only available
23 in B/C/S. Without having the thing on the screen, I can't be certain,
24 but it sounds like it.
25 MR. GROOME: Again, if we could go to the bottom of the second
2 MR. IVETIC: This is the draft translation, Your Honour.
3 MR. GROOME: Could you go down just a little bit.
4 Q. And sir, this document purports to be a statement taken by
5 Jelena Rasic, given by you, and given on the 2nd of March, 2008. That's
6 more than a month prior to the first time you met with Jelena Rasic. Is
7 that not correct?
8 A. As far as I remember, we met on the 7th of April. She took a
9 statement from me, and the next day on the 8th, she came back to see me.
10 We went together to the fourth municipal court, and we got a stamp on
11 that statement.
12 Q. Sir, I put it to you that from the very first meeting that you
13 had with Jelena Rasic, she was very clear about the testimony she wanted
14 you to give. She knew it prior to asking you what relevant information
15 you had about this case. Is that not true?
16 A. I don't know how she possibly could have known that.
17 Q. Sir, I want to conclude my examination of you by --
18 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Could I tender this second
19 statement. Again, there's a public version and a redacted -- I'm sorry.
20 We'd ask that the original be tendered under seal, and I have a redacted
21 public version that I would also tender at this time.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, original will become exhibit --
24 MR. IVETIC: We have an objection, actually.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. There's an objection.
1 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, the problem is by purview of the
2 relevance of this, this becomes at a point in time -- could we go into
3 private session, please.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4593-4594 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, this is a very, very important point.
6 I don't believe I can wrap up in just a couple of questions. I don't
7 know that we have any other witnesses today, and I would ask the
8 indulgence of the Court to give me a little bit of time just to go into
9 what I believe is a very telling piece of evidence here.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we have any other witnesses?
11 MR. ALARID: No, Your Honour [microphone not activated]. The
12 Prosecution is correct and we don't object to his extending his time.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is whether we shouldn't take the
15 MR. ALARID: Then we could -- sure. It makes sense.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take the break.
17 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Sir, I just want to conclude with a few questions about your
23 military service. For those in the courtroom that might not be familiar
24 with it, the Yugoslav army prior to the break-up of Yugoslavia required
25 all young men of military age to do mandatory military service, period of
1 about one or two years. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And you did yours in the 1970s; correct?
4 A. In 1972 and 1973.
5 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that you were mobilised into the
6 Territorial Defence of the Army of Republika Srpska; correct? Am I
7 correct in that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you, in fact, remembered the date of your mobilisation. You
10 told us it was the 9th of May of 1992; correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Who issued you your uniform?
13 A. The Territorial Defence in Visegrad.
14 Q. Did they issue you a weapon as well?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What type of weapon were you issued?
17 A. I had a PAP, which is a semi-automatic rifle, and that's what I
18 had. After that, I had a semi-automatic rifle.
19 Q. Were you -- when you were issued your uniform and your weapon,
20 was this all done officially and legally?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What rank were you?
23 A. I have no rank.
24 Q. What was the name of your commanding officer?
25 A. Drago Gavrilovic was the commander of the Territorial Defence.
1 Q. Now, sir, again for the benefit of those who may not be
2 intimately familiar with the workings of the Yugoslav People's Army,
3 mobilisation is when the army exercises its legal authority to force men
4 of military age into service. They have no choice. They are forced to
5 serve, and they can be arrested and punished if they refuse to do so. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. Correct. Any able-bodied man had to serve in the army.
8 Q. Now, sir, you testified that you remained in the Visegrad area
9 until 1996. Did you remain in the Army of the Republika Srpska during
10 that period of time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What happened to your job in Belgrade?
13 A. I had no problems at work. I only had to send them a certificate
14 to my supervisor at work, or when I had time I would go to Belgrade,
15 visit the firm, take along the certificate, and come back, so the
16 certificate had to be submitted at regular intervals.
17 Q. Did you receive a salary from the Army of Republika Srpska?
18 A. Yes. It was very small. When they had money, they would give us
19 something. When they didn't have any, then they didn't. That's how it
21 Q. Sir, I want to read a portion of your testimony yesterday. When
22 you talked about the circumstances surrounding your mobilisation, and
23 it's at transcript 4536, 4536.
24 "Question: Could you tell us the circumstances surrounding your
25 remaining in Bosnia
1 "Answer: Yes, it was precisely in those days when they were
2 mobilising people over there. Everyone and I was unable to go back
3 because the roads were blocked, so I stayed and I joined the Territorial
5 Do you remember being asked that question and giving that answer?
6 A. I don't understand where I was asked the question, yesterday here
7 or before when I gave the statement.
8 Q. No, I'm reading a quote from a question that Mr. Ivetic put to
9 you yesterday afternoon sometime around this time. I'll read it to you
10 again. He said:
11 "Could you tell us the circumstances surrounding your remaining
12 in Bosnia
13 And your answer was:
14 "Yes, it was precisely in those days that they were mobilising
15 people over there, everyone, and I was unable to go back because the
16 roads were blocked, so I stayed and I joined the Territorial Defence."
17 Do you recall giving that answer yesterday to that question?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So, sir, is it your evidence that the road between Visegrad and
21 A. No. There was a place called Vardiste where it was blocked, and
22 able-bodied men could not leave in the direction of Serbia unless they
23 had a special certificate from the army or the SUP, so regardless of the
24 fact that I had my residence in Belgrade
25 Q. So, sir, if I understand what you meant when you said "blocked"
1 yesterday, you meant that there was a check-point there, and they were
2 checking men of military age to make sure that they were not leaving the
3 area but that they were mobilised into the military. Is that correct?
4 A. Correct, yes.
5 Q. Now, but you used the word, "I joined the Territorial
6 Defence ..." So my question to you is, were you mobilised, forced into
7 the Territorial Defence, or did you voluntarily join the Territorial
9 A. When they started collecting people, rounding them up in the
10 villages, all that was left for me to do was flee through the woods to
12 Q. And do you remember when you were -- when you left the Army of
13 the Republika Srpska? As close to a date as you're able to give us.
14 A. In April 1996.
15 Q. Now, MLD4, when your name was provided to us as a witness and we
16 saw in your statement saying that you served in the Army of Republika
17 Srpska, we sent a request to the government of Republika Srpska to ask
18 them to check their records about your military service.
19 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that Exhibit 0645-8677 be placed on the
21 Q. I'm going to now show you what they say about your military
22 service. The report that you will see on the screen is the official
23 document we received from the government of Republika Srpska.
24 MR. ALARID: I just ask the Prosecution to state when they
25 disclosed this document, and I don't think we've seen it.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Under what rule should I have disclosed this, Your
3 Honour? It was provided to the Defence yesterday when we were required
4 to disclose documents that we're going to use on cross-examination. If
5 Mr. Alarid is suggesting that there's an earlier date that it should have
6 been disclosed, I appreciate to know under what rule.
7 MR. ALARID: When did you receive it?
8 MR. GROOME: Is the Chamber directing me to answer the question?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the point of the question?
10 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, simply put, [microphone not
11 activated] [Previous translation continues]... we received it yesterday,
12 I guess, according to that, and I'd just like to know when they received
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see the relevance of that question.
15 MR. ALARID: That's fine, Judge.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's when you received it that's important, from
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just so that the record is complete,
19 Mr. Van Hooydonk informs me that we received it on the 19th of January
20 and we disclosed it on the 19th of January, the same day that we received
3 MLD4, there's absolutely no record in the custody of the
4 Republika Srpska government of you ever having been mobilised or
5 volunteered or having served in any capacity in any unit at any time with
6 the Army of Republika Srpska.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, without knowing what was requested of
9 the government of Republika Srpska, I believe that Mr. Groome's grandiose
10 statement is lacking foundation. All we have is this response. It
11 doesn't say what was asked of the authorities of Republika Srpska.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm entitled to put it to the witness.
13 I will be seeking to mark this for identification and will supply the
14 Chamber with the request and the full response in a written motion when I
15 seek its admission.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I believe you're entitled to put it. Yes.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Sir, please answer. You have your hand up. Please explain.
19 A. What you are saying that in 1978 I was no longer registered in
20 Visegrad, that's probably true, but I was registered in Zemun because I
21 lived in Surcin. Surcin belongs to Zemun municipality. After that, I
22 moved my address to new Belgrade
24 As for the documents you asked for from the government of
25 Republika Srpska, I can show you my military booklet with stamps in it
1 from the Army of Republika Srpska showing what time I spent there, and I
2 have this military booklet with the stamps in it with me now.
3 Q. Sir, are you willing to allow us to place it in evidence in this
4 trial --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have Mr. -- Mr. Ivetic first, Mr. Groome.
6 MR. IVETIC: Only a matter that since we are in open session, the
7 part at page 6, lines 3 through 5, ought to be redacted because that
8 could lead someone to conclude the identity. I just rose because I don't
9 know what the time limit is for the redactions to take place for the live
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be redacted.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. Sir, do you have any objection to your military booklet being
14 placed in evidence in this trial?
15 A. I have it with me with the stamps in it, and you can look at it.
16 Q. Do you need the original for any pension or anything you receive?
17 A. I have to keep it. I brought my military booklet with me, but I
18 have to keep it.
19 Q. Perhaps if you would allow the usher to have it for a short time,
20 then I will work with the counsel on Milan Defence team about how we
21 might document it, either by taking photographs of it or photocopying it.
22 MR. ALARID: No objection to either way, whatever is easiest for
23 the court to put into evidence.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Sir, is it your evidence that your military records are located
1 in the Republic of Serbia
2 A. My military file is in new Belgrade
3 is now new Belgrade
4 Q. So that if we ask in new Belgrade
5 will find -- it will corroborate the dates that you've given us as you
6 were being a member of the Army of Republika Srpska. Is that correct?
7 A. Probably, yes. Probably, yes.
8 Q. Now, sir, let's be clear. You were one of five Defence witnesses
9 that we made the request at the same time to the Republika Srpska, and
10 out of the five, the government checked their records and supplied us
11 with the dates of their military service in Visegrad. They supplied us
12 with the dates of three of the people of the military service. It was
13 just you and one other person who has no record. They have no record of.
14 I'd ask you to take a look at paragraph 1, and would you read that for
15 us. Paragraph 1 on the screen in front of you, sir. Could you read
16 paragraph 1 on the monitor in front of you.
17 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, we would object to this. The witness
18 didn't generate this document. I think it would be improper for him to
19 read it. He's already asked and answered the questions with regards to
20 his military service and provided the relevant booklet. The offer of the
21 Prosecutor to have him read this document which he did not generate and
22 we have not had any real foundation for is otherwise simply self-serving.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I don't see the point in his reading it
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would ask a follow-up question with
1 respect to the person who's listed in paragraph, someone who he's
2 testified he knows quite well.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
4 MR. GROOME: Am I allowed to ask him to read that first
5 paragraph? Just a few words.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what is the follow-up question?
7 MR. GROOME: Whether he knows whether Goran Djeric was, in fact,
8 a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Well, you can ask him that and then refer
10 him to the -- you can ask him that and refer him to what is in the first.
11 Is that number 1?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes.
13 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday that you knew Goran Djeric, I
14 believe you said, quite well. Was he a member, to your knowledge, of the
15 Army of Republika Srpska?
16 A. I think he was, but he was in the Rogatica Brigade.
17 Q. Could I ask you to read the first paragraph on the document in
18 front of you.
19 A. I don't understand what I should answer, what the question is.
20 Q. I'm just asking you, can you simply read the paragraph there in
21 front of you. What follows numeral I?
22 A. "Djeric, son of Ilija, Goran, is not in our records ."
23 Q. Sir, my final question to you is, if you and Mr. Djeric were not
24 official members of the Army of Republika Srpska, would you have -- were
25 you a member of Milan Lukic's paramilitary group?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: He's got two questions here. The first question --
3 sorry, compound question. The first question misstates the evidence.
4 His testimony has been that he was a member. As for the other one, let
5 him ask it.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please break the questions down, Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Sir, were you a member of Milan Lukic's paramilitary group?
9 A. No, I wasn't.
10 Q. Sir, I have your military booklet here, and we'll photocopy it
11 and return it to you, and then we'll study it after you've gone, but I do
12 want to ask you while I do have you, there's a page where the top of the
13 page has been cut out.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Ivetic, do you accept that
15 Milan Lukic had a paramilitary group?
16 MR. IVETIC: No, we do not, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I didn't hear any objection to that.
18 That's something you should object to. I mean, is there evidence that
19 establishing that, Mr. Groome?
20 MR. IVETIC: There is not, but they've asked questions of that
21 before of other witnesses, in my recollection. They always insinuate
22 that things that are not in evidence are in evidence. And I, quite
23 frankly, don't know how to respond to it since when I give objections, I
24 get -- I get the feeling that I should not be getting out of my chair.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You know, I described you as behaving like a
1 peeved schoolboy, and it is true. Why don't you behave like an adult and
2 a professional and act in the interest of your client?
3 MR. IVETIC: I believe I have been pursuing the interests of my
4 client and acting professionally, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because I would have thought that that was
6 something that either you and Mr. Alarid would object to, it's a
7 substantial point.
8 MR. GROOME: May I continue, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I want you to satisfy me that -- because
10 you have asked him a question which presumes that Milan Lukic had a
11 paramilitary group. I, myself, am not satisfied that we have evidence
12 that establishes that. And I know it's part of your case.
13 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, perhaps that's a characterization
14 of the group that he led, but I believe there's been ample evidence in
15 the Prosecution case by numerous witnesses about Milan Lukic travelling
16 around, armed, committing crimes. We've found no evidence that he was
17 either a police officer or a soldier in the VRS. By definition, the
18 fact --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You see? But paramilitary has a particular
20 connotation, and that is what I would object to.
21 MR. GROOME: There's been evidence introduced before the Court
22 about Sredoje Lukic forming a group called the Avengers, a paramilitary
23 grouped called the Avengers. It would take me some time to gather all
24 the evidence, Your Honour, but I believe there's an abundance of
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, just for the record, we strongly object
3 to any allegations related to my client and any paramilitary unit. There
4 are many evidence which are already admitted that my client was the
5 member of police of Visegrad, so I don't see any relevance of allegations
6 which I heard from my colleague Mr. Groome. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: But has your client been mentioned?
8 MR. GROOME: I've referred to him. I don't have the exhibit
9 number off the top of my head, but there was a report, if you recall,
10 that was introduced that talked about him establishing the Avengers;
11 that's the name of their --
12 MR. CEPIC: And this report is from unchecked sources without
13 signature, without date, without time, without nothing which is relevant
14 that we could establish the relevance of that report. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You should reformulate the question. You may
16 refer to Mr. Milan Lukic and -- [overlapping speakers]
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I will do that, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, is it not a fact that you --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. We have -- you know the general
20 rule. When counsel is on his feet, then the other one has to stop.
21 MR. ALARID: And I apologise, and for clarification, Your Honour,
22 I believe we filed a motion asking for clarification on the point of the
23 paramilitary with relation with the chapeau --
24 MR. IVETIC: With the chapeau -- whether their -- what is their
25 case that they're supposed to answer? [Microphone not activated].
1 MR. ALARID: Because, I mean, of course, Your Honour, we're under
2 the tenuous situation of sometimes -- I mean, we're putting on that he
3 was part of the reserve and then graduated to the military, and so, I
4 mean, and -- so I understand the position of the Court, but I think that
5 is part of our motion. That was my only point.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're saying he was part of the reserve but
7 not --
8 MR. ALARID: Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... a member of
10 a paramilitary?
11 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. We believe -- he has not been
12 established as the leader of the White Eagles as originally charged in
13 the indictment.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Groome is sufficiently experienced to
15 reformulate the question.
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'll try. Sir, is it not true --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: I think that I owe one explanation related to the
19 previous -- my quotation earlier. OTP requested admission of six
20 documents from the police station of Visegrad, and we join to that motion
21 those documents are supplied with the signatures and the relevant stamps,
22 and in that document it is very clear that my client was the member of
23 police, of that police station in a relevant period for this indictment.
24 Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: Anyone on the edge of their seat?
2 Q. Sir, I put it to you that you were a member of the irregular
3 armed forces under the control of Milan Lukic. Is that not true?
4 A. That's not correct. I am under oath, and I assert that's not
5 correct, and you also have the documents here.
6 Q. Now, I'm holding your military booklet in my hand, and we'll
7 study it and get it translated, and we'll return the original to you, but
8 on page 25, if I could just ask you to explain, there's -- the top entry,
9 it looks like there is the -- we can see the bottom of a signature, and
10 it's been cut out. Can you just explain that to us so that we'll be
11 better able to understand the document when we study it? And I can
12 return it to you if you want to look at it.
13 A. Well, that's all right. I would like to have it back, and I
14 would like to have a look so then I can explain.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, Mr. Groome, we have the booklet here. Why
16 don't we put it on the ELMO so that the interpreters can give us a
17 translation, and Mr. Ivetic can ask any question on it in re-examination
18 because we have the booklet right here.
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I would just note that it looks
20 like it's about 50 or more pages in small print, so I'm not sure we'll be
21 able to go through all of it, so I thought at least focus on a portion
22 that seems to be altered in the book. That would be the only question --
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You want to direct him to a particular page now?
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The rest of it we can get
25 translated in due course, but there is a portion that seems to be cut out
1 of the booklet. Perhaps if we can get MLD4 to explain if he knows why
2 that was down so that he's free to go, and we'll know the answer.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, what we could do is, also, when you are
4 finished, Mr. Ivetic, Mr. Ivetic, you will look at the booklet and assist
5 the Chamber be taking us through those portions which are relevant to
6 your case.
7 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honour, and I'll also present official
8 documents from Republika Srpska contradicting Mr. Groome's.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 MR. GROOME:
11 Q. Sir, can I ask you to explain page 25, if you can explain that to
12 us. What is the portion of the top that seems to be missing?
13 A. It reads very clearly there: "Report immediately to the war
14 unit." And then down there it reads clearly the location and all that,
15 and this is when you have mobilisation in your company, and we often had
16 this, I mean, these mobilisations. You'd be off for one day, two days,
17 seven days, military drills, mainly, and then -- well, there you go. It
18 reads very clearly there.
19 Q. Can I ask you to just take a back of a pen and point to it on the
20 original on the screen. It's difficult to know what you're pointing to
21 on the monitor. Don't make any mark on it. But simply use the back of
22 the pencil there to point to the portion that you're referring to. On
23 the original; that's to your right.
24 A. You see, this is where I reported to. This is what I reported
25 to, my unit, new Belgrade
1 the Republika Srpska or with Bosnia
6 (redacted) Sometimes it would last a fortnight. It was some sort of
7 a military drill. So the missing part has nothing whatsoever to do with
8 Republika Srpska.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, since we are in open session, I
11 believe, we would need to redact the portions as to where his employment
12 was, which would be page 16, line 4, it looks like -- pardon me, 3. 3
13 and 4.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Shouldn't we be doing this in --
15 Mr. Groome, shouldn't we be doing this in private session? It seems sort
16 of ...
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So we'll be in private session for this.
19 [Private Session]
11 Pages 4612-4614 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session now, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that the document from
5 Republika Srpska be marked for identification and placed under seal.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become Exhibit P 241, marked
7 for identification.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: If I could at that time ask, then, for document
10 2D04-0198, which is 65 ter number 20 on my colleague Mr. Cepic's exhibit
11 list, which is the official booklet list of military personnel of the 2nd
12 and 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade in Visegrad wherein on page 90
13 this witness is identified, and also 65 ter number 30 from Mr. Cepic's
14 list, which is the official certificate of the government of
15 Republika Srpska affirming this document received from the official RFA
16 is, indeed, an official document. Those ought to go in conjunction, and
17 all those should be under seal as well to protect the identity of the
18 witness, but they have all this information that the military booklet has
19 given us is also in this official document from the Republika Srpska.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're asking that that be introduced now or
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, or if you would like me to have the witness --
23 I mean, it's a document the witness has not seen and has not participated
24 in creating, but it's an official document, so if Mr. Groome is going to
25 introduce an official document stating one thing, I think we should be
1 entitled to introduce the official document with, again, the --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can do that in re-examination.
3 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I can do it that way. That's fine.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I mean, we have procedures here.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, finally I would tender the booklet, or
6 however we memorialise it here today, into evidence as an exhibit under
7 seal. And I believe we can either photograph it or --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P 241 under seal, Your Honours.
10 MR. GROOME: And finally, Your Honour, just a matter that is a
11 carry-over from earlier today, I would re-tender the redacted statements
12 of the 2nd of March and the 7th of April. They were provided to Defence
13 counsel during the break.
14 MR. ALARID: I'm sorry. Yeah, we didn't look at them during the
15 break, Your Honour, and in terms of the redacted or otherwise, we still
16 object strongly to any draft translation we presented to -- because it
17 simply could be a typo, any kind of cut-and-paste mistake. And I don't
18 think it should go for the evidence, the truth of the matter asserted, as
19 it's hearsay.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe that matter has been
21 resolved. The only thing that was carried over was whether the Defence
22 counsel thought there needed to be additional redactions. I'm happy to
23 raise it again later on today. They have the redacted version in their
24 possession, and I would appreciate if they would look at it so we tend to
25 it today.
1 Your Honour, I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Defence counsel will provide that
3 information later.
4 Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. Did you want to take these
6 several minutes for me to review the military booklet now or -- because I
7 will be rather brief.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Take ten minutes.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we'll adjourn for ten minutes.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn. I think it's better than sitting
13 down here. And Mr. Ivetic, you use the time profitably.
14 MR. IVETIC: I will.
15 --- Break taken at 5.00 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 5.17 p.m.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: If I could proceed, Your Honours. I'd start with
19 the military booklet for which I think we need to be in private session,
20 if we're not already.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 4618-4626 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Witness, on behalf of the Defence of Milan Lukic, I wish to
19 thank you for coming here to testify and to give evidence in this case.
20 I have no further questions for you.
21 Your Honours, thank you.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just one question on the military
23 booklet, if I could ask the witness to be shown it again. Just one
24 question, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: One question on -- yes.
1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
2 MR. GROOME: Could I ask the witness to be shown the page after
3 his photograph page.
4 Q. Sir, if I could ask you to look at the second page of the
5 military booklet. Could I ask you just to look at where it says your
6 date of birth. Read what it says and then tell us whether that's
8 A. I know what you are referring to, but there is an error there.
9 If I could explain that error because that is a village where the
10 registry office is far away. So when children were born, they were not
11 reported --
12 Q. Sir, if I could just interrupt you, maybe we should go into
13 private session if you're going to give your date of birth.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 4629-4647 redacted. Private session.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.21 p.m.
3 February, 2009, at 8.50 a.m.