1 Wednesday, 4 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning. Today, like yesterday,
6 Judge Robinson is unable to attend, so we - Judge David and I - will be
7 sitting under the rule. Can we have an update on the situation about the
8 witness who is called upon to testify today. We understood that she is
9 getting ready to testify. Is that ...
10 MR. IVETIC: That's my understanding. I will defer to the court
11 officer who has been in the most recent contact, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We understand that the witness is ready
15 to testify within an hour, so let's use the court time to deal with
16 whatever matters that the parties would wish to raise. Meanwhile, I
17 understand Mr. Cepic has a number of points to raise.
18 MR. CEPIC: Good morning, Your Honour. Yesterday, two documents
19 were marked for identification. First one is 2D06-0027, and second one
20 is 2D06-0122. Those two documents are transcript of -- from interview
21 with Defence witness Mr. Veroljub Zivkovic, and we kindly ask for 2D
22 numbers for those two documents. Thank you.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Can we get exhibit numbers.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these documents should receive the
25 following exhibit numbers: Document ID 2D06-0027 shall be given
1 Exhibit 2D53 MFI. Document ID 2D06-0122 shall be given Exhibit 2D54 MFI.
2 Thank you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you. Are there any other matters?
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there's one small bookkeeping matter.
5 Mr. Van Hooydonk is attempting to get me the exhibit number. If you
6 recall, I raised it I think the week before last, and it had to do with
7 substituting a redacted version of a -- I believe, of a statement. It's
8 only a few minutes. If Mr. Van Hooydonk can come up with the
9 information, I'd ask to address it now to make use of the time. If not
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. While you're doing that, Mr.
12 Groome, let me ask the Milan Lukic Defence what the position is for the
13 witnesses of next week because we seem to understand that no arrangements
14 have been made with VWS.
15 MR. IVETIC: I'd actually communicated with VWS with respect to
16 three witnesses. We should probably go into private session with respect
17 to this discussion.
18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Closed session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 4691-4695 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We are ready to start hearing the
7 witness. Let me say at the outset that we are hoping to finish this
8 witness today, and with the time estimates that we have got -- we
9 received from both parties, this seems to be very much possible.
10 So let me start by greeting you, Witness. Good morning to you.
11 May I ask you to --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: -- read the affirmation which is held
14 before you before giving your evidence.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD17
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 [Witness testified via videolink]
20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much. You may sit down
21 now, and Mr. Ivetic is going to ask you a number of questions.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would begin first by
23 asking, are we in private or open session? Open? Okay. Thank you.
24 For the first few questions, in open session, and then --
25 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
1 Q. Madam, as you know, I'm Dan Ivetic, one of the attorneys for
2 Milan Lukic in this case. I'm going to have to refer you as MLD17 in
3 order to protect your identity. First of all, can you hear me okay?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Then first I would ask the assistance of the Registry officer to
6 show you the pseudonym sheet that has been prepared in advance, and I
7 would ask that you take the time to review the same and confirm for us
8 that the information contained therein as to yourself, as to your name
9 and date of birth, is correct.
10 A. Yes, it's correct.
11 Q. Then I would ask you to sign the form.
12 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, once that is done, I would tender
13 this document in question as the next available 1D exhibit number.
14 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the pseudonym sheet shall be given
16 Exhibit number 1D 109. Thank you, Your Honours. Under seal.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 Q. Madam witness, can you please state for us, what is your
20 A. Yes. I'm a Serb.
21 Q. And now, without telling us the precise location, can you tell us
22 the city wherein you currently reside?
23 A. The city of Belgrade.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, the next part of my examination goes
25 into the details of the witness, so I would ask to go into private
2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 4699-4700 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Ivetic, may I draw your
17 attention to the fact that we haven't seen the pseudonym sheet.
18 Normally, the pseudonym sheet is shown to the Trial Chamber. I hope this
19 is still going to happen, but we haven't seen it. I don't want to
20 interrupt you, but I just wanted to mention.
21 MR. REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours, and I'll
22 make sure to provide you one. Thank you.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you to Mr. Registrar on both counts.
24 Q. Now, madam, we are in open session so please be careful not to
25 state anything that might identify your identity, as this is being
1 broadcast to the public.
2 And if I can first ask you if you can focus your attention to the
3 outbreak in war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that a time reference that you
4 can make in your mind?
5 A. It was April 1992.
6 Q. Now, you had mentioned your interactions with Mr. Lukic up until
7 May of 1992 in closed session. With respect to the time period after
8 this period, did you have occasion to see Milan Lukic at any point
9 thereafter and, if so, when?
10 A. I saw Milan Lukic again on the 7th of June.
11 Q. Can we please have the year?
12 A. 1992.
13 Q. Thank you. And, again, without revealing any of your personal
14 details, can you please tell us how it is that you are certain of this
16 A. I am certain of this date because it was a Sunday and, as I have
17 said, we purchased a flat on the 29th of May, so that I organised in the
18 flat a little party for a couple of friends and relatives, a modest
19 party. It was modest because war was raging all around, and I had
20 managed to solve the vital question of my family, and that is something
21 that is hard to forget .
22 Q. Because it has not come out in the transcript, I would ask you to
23 tell us what day you had organised that party in your flat for a couple
24 of friends and relatives, a modest party.
25 A. It was a Sunday, the 7th of June, 1992.
1 Q. And where -- could you detail first the circumstances of your
2 encounter with Mr. Milan Lukic on that date?
3 A. I believe that it was between 1700 and 1800 hours in the
4 afternoon. I cannot be sure of the time, but it was within that time
5 span. I and my daughter went to a shop in (redacted) to get more drinks
6 and juice and mineral water because, as I have said, we had a couple of
7 families back in our flat to mark the occasion of ours having purchased
8 that flat and becoming its owners.
9 At the exit from the building, I saw Milan. First, I stopped to
10 look and see whether it was indeed him because he was in uniform. He was
11 taking some things out of a car. I was amazed. I was very glad and
12 pleased because we had not seen each other for the entire month of May,
13 so I walked up to him, and I greeted him, and I asked him whether he
14 would join me up there in my flat to -- or join our modest celebration.
15 Milan said that he could not, that he was in a hurry because in the flat,
16 there were -- can I continue?
17 In the flat, in his flat -- I may, okay. In his flat was his
18 sick mother whom he had brought and some friends of his as well.
19 Q. Just wait. Just wait as we -- if we could please go into private
20 session to discuss the remaining parts of the testimony as to her
22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 4704-4706 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Madam, the last thing I would ask you if you could just give a
13 brief summation - I think you've done it again -- I think you've already
14 done it - of in the time that you knew Mr. Milan Lukic, what kind of
15 appraisal you would give of him as a person.
16 A. I've said that Milan -- I mean, I'm talking about that time while
17 we were together, he was exceptional, a quiet man, good looking, smart.
18 He was nice to all of us who knew him. He was cooperative. He
19 socialised with us. In a word, nothing but the best.
20 Q. Thank you. (redacted)
23 MR. IVETIC: We have to go back into private session, Your
24 Honours, I apologise.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
1 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We were in private session, so there's
22 no need for a redaction.
23 MR. IVETIC: I believe that the part that I was talking about
24 came just before going into private session, the two lines before.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can the Registrar verify this?
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Page 12 is in private session, I'm told.
3 MR. IVETIC: Okay. That's fine, then. Then we can go into open
4 session. We are already in open session.
5 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.
6 Madam, I thank you for answering my questions on behalf of the
7 defence of Milan Lukic. Thank you.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
9 Madam, now you will be asked a few questions by the Prosecution
10 who is leading the evidence.
11 MR. GROOME: It will be Ms. Mazzocco, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be Ms. Mazzocco.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 MS. MAZZOCCO: Yes, Your Honours, if we can go into private
15 session for some questions of private matter.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private session, please.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 4710 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We have back in open session, Your Honours.
17 MS. MAZZOCCO:
18 Q. Can you tell us, how is your health?
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, questions as to the health of the
20 witness should be in closed session as has been the practice in this
22 MS. MAZZOCCO: I don't see any detail that could -- if there is
23 detail that could compromise the safety of the witness, of course.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Let's err on the side of caution and go
1 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Page 4713 redacted. Private session.
18 Q. Okay. So I can go to another question if it's not possible.
19 So you say that you saw Milan Lukic during April 1992; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you explain me better, how much time did you spend together
22 in April 1992, since -- well, yes, if you explain me better this.
23 A. Well, approximately a month.
24 Q. How many times did you meet during that month?
25 A. Well, we met frequently during that month.
1 Q. So if you can specify, maybe each day, each week?
2 A. No, not every day. We didn't meet every day, but let's say twice
3 or thrice a week and over the weekend.
4 Q. Did you have a phone number for Milan Lukic in 1992?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. For which address of his?
7 A. But now I do not remember the phone number because I haven't
8 called him since he left.
9 Q. So it was the phone number for that address in Belgrade, not the
10 phone number for his home address in Visegrad, I mean?
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, there's -- Your Honour, Your Honour.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the flat in Belgrade.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, there's been no evidence led of the
14 home address in Visegrad, so this question is misstating the evidence
15 and, in any event, beyond the scope of direct.
16 MS. MAZZOCCO: Okay, I can reformulate.
17 Q. Did you know if Milan Lukic had a home in the Visegrad region?
18 A. No. I only know that at Rujiste where he had -- and as for
19 Visegrad, I don't know.
20 Q. But -- so you knew that he had a home in Rujiste. Did you have a
21 phone number for that home?
22 A. No. At that time, I got married. I was 18 at that time, and I
23 haven't been to that place in 40 years. At that time, 40 years ago, that
24 is no one was on the phone there.
25 Q. So maybe I was not clear. I was referring to the 1992. You knew
1 that Milan Lukic was living at a house in Belgrade, but also that he left
2 from Belgrade. Did you know where he was going?
3 A. No. No, I did not know.
4 Q. Did you know, in 1992, if he had relatives in the Visegrad
6 A. I only knew his brother who used to come to the flat, and his
7 sister, and nobody else.
8 Q. So you didn't have any details of his address in Rujiste or his
9 telephone number or something else that could maybe help you to be in
10 contact with him when he was back in that place?
11 A. No. Only when he came to the flat in Belgrade, and the others,
13 Q. So you surely know Draginja Lukic that is related to Milan Lukic?
14 A. His sister, yes.
15 Q. When did you meet or speak to this person last?
16 A. The last time was in December, in the first half of December
17 2008. At that time, she came to my place to ask for the telephone number
18 or my telephone number because she didn't have it to give to the
19 attorney-at-law, Milan's lawyer, so that he would get in touch with me.
20 Q. So was Draginja the person that made you in contact with the
21 defence lawyer?
22 A. No, she just got the telephone number from me, and she gave it to
23 the lawyer, and that's it.
24 Q. And do you know Milojka Lukic?
25 A. I do not.
1 Q. And you say during this examination that you know Mirjana
2 Kuzmanovic, Milan Lukic's girlfriend. How did you know her?
3 A. I am sorry. It is Krsmanovic, Mirjana. It is not Kuzmanovic,
4 and I met her as I said in September, on the 18th of September, 1992.
5 Milan came to the flat, and he introduced her as his girlfriend.
6 Q. Did you see her later?
7 A. No, I did not, but as my brothers live in Visegrad, I heard that
8 she was a doctor, that she worked at the health centre, that she was
9 exceptionally beautiful, a beautiful girl, and they actually said very
10 nice things about her.
11 Q. So you have only this -- you have all this information about this
12 girl that you met only once in your life?
13 A. Well, I tell you because I contacted her brothers. I actually
14 was in touch with her brothers who live in Visegrad, and unfortunately,
15 one of them got killed, and my brothers, in fact, they told me that they
16 would occasionally meet her and that she was an exceptional person, an
17 exceptional doctor as well.
18 Q. I want to go back to your meeting with Milan Lukic in April 1992.
19 What did he tell you about what he was doing in Belgrade?
20 A. I didn't inquire much. I know that he came from abroad, that he
21 bought this flat, and I don't know. I didn't talk about these things
22 with him in terms of what he was doing or what his work was. We just
23 socialised casually, not only I, myself, but also some other neighbours
24 who gladly went to visit him. I can state some of the names or the name
25 of these wonderful people. They have left. They are not now there.
1 They have gone to the village where their parents' house is. This is the
2 Egelic family.
3 Q. I don't want to interrupt you for the voice distortion but, yes,
4 please answer to my question.
5 You say that you met Milan Lukic in the 8th of June, and you say
6 that his mother -- the 7th of June, and you say that his mother was sick.
7 Didn't you ask to come and see, visit his mother since she was sick?
8 A. No, I was in no position to do that. I had other obligations. I
9 thought that she would be staying there for a longer period of time, and
10 I was unable, in fact. As I have told you, there were people in my flat.
11 That's why I was unable to go and see her.
12 Q. You say that you were celebrating your new apartment. Why didn't
13 you celebrate immediately after buying it and -- from the 29th of May, on
14 the 7th of June, that is ten days later.
15 A. It was the 7th of June. It wasn't such a long time. I was
16 waiting for a day off work. It was just seven or eight days in between.
17 It was on the 29th of May in 1992 that I had purchased my flat.
18 Q. You say that you had this party during June 1992. Do you
19 remember if you had any other parties in that month?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How many parties did you have at your address in 1992?
22 A. It was just this one celebration, and then there was the birthday
23 party that was on the 19th of September (redacted) and the
24 12th of December, 1992; (redacted) Those were the
1 Q. You say that you met Milan Lukic that day. Surely you met also
2 other people that day, isn't it?
3 A. I don't understand. In what sense?
4 Q. You remember that you met Milan Lukic. In all that day, I
5 suppose, I'm sure you met other people.
6 A. Yes, the neighbours.
22 Q. You say that you was -- that Milan Lukic was unloading his car,
23 if I am correct, that he had some bag when you saw him in June, once in
24 June. Which kind of bag, pack, did he have?
25 A. Some bags.
1 Q. Can you describe them?
2 A. I don't know, travelling bags with a handle. I don't know how
3 quite to describe them, like, for instance, a laundry hamper, something
4 like that.
5 Q. And do you remember that he was near his car? Do you remember
6 the kind of car?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. So you remember the kind of the car?
11 MR. ALARID: Objection, compound question. The previous question
12 at line 15 was two questions. She answered it. Then she answered the
13 second question. Asked and answered.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just remember that it was dark.
15 MS. MAZZOCCO:
16 Q. Do you remember the colour of the car?
17 A. Yes, it was a dark colour.
18 Q. So you have testified that Milan Lukic had a good character and
19 good relationship with people, was good-hearted, you say?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I understand that most of your neighbours in Belgrade were
22 Serbian; correct?
23 A. There were others -- people of other ethnicities as I've said
24 already. I can tell you which neighbour of mine was such if we can go
25 into private session for that.
1 MS. MAZZOCCO: Yes, Your Honours, we are still in private
2 session. Then we can go back in open session because I'm done. I'm not
3 asking the name of the other neighbours.
4 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Open session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
7 MS. MAZZOCCO:
8 Q. So you say that there were even other ethnicity, but the main one
9 was Serb; correct?
10 A. I don't know whether all of them were that. I think the majority
11 was, but there were other ethnicities as well.
12 Q. You could interact with Milan Lukic only that few times during
13 April and, if I'm correct, three times in June and once later?
14 MR. ALARID: Object to the form, compound.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I don't see a problem in this question.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. MAZZOCCO:
18 Q. So when you say that Milan Lukic was such a good person, you are
19 basing your evaluation on these few contacts; correct?
20 A. Yes, on that basis, the -- on the basis of the contacts which I
21 did have with him, I can say that I neither experienced or noticed
22 anything bad, just good.
23 Q. You couldn't experience anything bad in those few occasions;
25 A. No.
1 Q. There weren't other occasion; correct?
2 A. What do you mean? In connection with what? Other occasions in
3 connection with what?
4 Q. You say that during the direct the times that you met Milan
5 Lukic, those are the times that you met him; correct? There aren't other
6 occasions; correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When you met Milan Lukic, did he ever ask you or your husband,
9 maybe, about Novi Pazar?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You say that you had a military apartment. Was it related to
12 your husband's work?
13 A. It was. Actually, I also worked.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we're going to go into her
15 employment, I'm going to ask we go into private session to protect the
16 protective measures ordered by this Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay, private session.
18 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
5 MS. MAZZOCCO:
6 Q. So have you always remembered the date of your party that was on
7 the 7th of June of -- or did you forget and later remember it, the date?
8 A. No. It was always present in my mind. I've told you the reason
10 Q. Have you spoken to Milan Lukic while he is in prison?
11 A. No, I haven't.
12 Q. Did you ever receive a letter or message from Milan Lukic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You are a Defence witness. How did you get in contact with the
16 MR. ALARID: Objection, asked and answered on cross-examination.
17 MS. MAZZOCCO: I didn't ask who was the contact with the Defence.
18 MR. ALARID: I believe the witness answered. I don't have the
19 page and number reference, but the phone number was gotten, and then she
20 was contacted by phone.
21 MS. MAZZOCCO: She said that Draginja Lukic asked her for the
22 phone number, but she wasn't the contact with the Defence team.
23 MR. ALARID: And otherwise, I would object just to relevance.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Microphone not activated] Please
25 proceed, Ms. Mazzocco.
1 MS. MAZZOCCO:
2 Q. So how did you get in contact with the Defence?
3 A. The lawyer called me by phone, Danny, and he asked me if I could
4 come to where his rented premises were, and he conducted a conversation
5 with me in connection with Milan asking me what I knew. That was brief.
6 It lasted 30 or 40 minutes, and when I talked with the lawyer at that
7 time, there was with him a lad who I was told was an American. He only
8 spoke in English and from time to time, when the lawyer spoke to me, the
9 lawyer would tell him something in English. I don't know what.
10 Q. Yes, but when did it happen, the first contact?
11 A. This was sometime in mid-December 2008.
12 Q. So you say that the lawyer called Danny called you by phone and
13 you got the -- I understand that you gave the phone number to Draginja,
14 so the first people who asked you to testify was in fact Draginja?
15 A. Yes, yes. She took the number, and she told me that the lawyer
16 Danny would ring me up for us to meet so that he could talk with me.
17 Q. When did Draginja ask you first to testify?
18 MR. ALARID: Objection, I believe that misstates the evidence in
19 terms of being asked to testify. It appears that she asked to be -- that
20 she would be contacted.
21 MS. MAZZOCCO: I can reformulate.
22 Q. When did Draginja ask you the telephone number to give it to the
23 Defence team, for the purpose of a contact with the Defence team?
24 MR. ALARID: Objection, asked and answered.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Please proceed.
1 MS. MAZZOCCO: I don't remember being given the date.
2 MR. ALARID: Page 21, lines 1 through 3.
3 MS. MAZZOCCO:
4 Q. Did Draginja before that date tell you that Milan Lukic was on
6 A. She did not tell me anything. It was on the news that I heard
7 that because I only follow the news. It was from the media. Actually, I
8 do not follow the trials because that is late and I work. I have no time
9 for that, but I do watch television and television news, and that is
10 where I heard that.
11 Q. Did you have interaction with Draginja before December?
12 A. I only had contact with Draginja while Milan was in the flat, and
13 that is when I met her, and I also met the brother Novica, who also came
14 to the flat, and no one else.
15 Q. So from 1992, you didn't meet Draginja until December 2008;
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you ever tell Draginja that you remember having seen Milan
19 Lukic in June?
20 A. No. No. As I've said, I had no contacts with her.
21 Q. So it's your testimony, I understand, that you had a telephone
22 contact with the Defence team, and you didn't meet them in person;
24 MR. ALARID: Objection as to misstating the evidence. She
25 described the meeting, described the American youth, so forth.
1 MS. MAZZOCCO: Yes, I reformulate.
2 Q. When you had this meeting with the American lawyer, did he take
4 A. Yes, he did, and I only talked with Danny, and he would
5 occasionally ask Danny something in English, and as I've told you ...
6 Q. Yes. And did you sign anything?
7 A. No. It was just a conversation.
8 Q. Are there any person of your family that are going to testify?
9 MR. IVETIC: I object to the extent that -- it's beyond the scope
10 of the witness's knowledge what the Defence team is planning on tendering
11 with witnesses, especially protected witnesses.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We may wish to go into closed session
13 for this question, but I don't see a problem with asking her whether she
14 knows. If she knows, she does. If she doesn't, she doesn't. So maybe
15 we can go in closed session for this question.
16 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
2 MS. MAZZOCCO:
3 Q. Mrs. Witness, on the 21st of January, the OTP asked for an
4 interview with you. Was there any reason why you would not have an
5 interview with the Prosecution?
6 A. The 21st of January? No, I got no information at all.
7 Q. So I want to finish with a final question, some final questions.
8 So your evidence is that you remember that you saw Milan Lukic in June
9 1992; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And that was while you were having a party in June 1992; correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. In these circumstances, were not the Defence only in December
14 2008; correct?
15 MR. ALARID: Objection as to the form of the question.
16 MS. MAZZOCCO: I don't see the reason for the objection.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: What is your reason for the objection,
18 Mr. Alarid?
19 MR. ALARID: The form of the question, Your Honour. I mean, I
20 understand the translation -- I didn't understand the question.
21 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Can you repeat the question then,
23 MS. MAZZOCCO:
24 Q. The Defence was aware of your meeting with Milan Lukic only in
25 December 2008?
1 MR. IVETIC: I object as to speculation, foundation. How could
2 she know what resources the Defence has to locate witnesses?
3 MR. ALARID: And relevance.
4 MS. MAZZOCCO: Your Honours, she just said that she never spoke
5 with the Defence before December and she never spoke about ...
6 MR. ALARID: Then it's asked and answered, and I would --
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I will allow the question. Please ask
8 the question. Please repeat your question.
9 MS. MAZZOCCO:
10 Q. Are you aware if the Defence knew about your meeting in June 1992
11 before December 2008?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know anything.
13 Q. So I am bound to put to you that the Prosecution position in
14 respect of your evidence is that it is not worthy of any credit; it has
15 been created after the event to provide Milan Lukic with a false alibi.
16 What do you say to it?
17 A. I am surprised that such a big institution, such a house can
18 insult the person of the witness to the effect that the witness is not
19 telling the truth. I have made a solemn declaration. I have signed that
20 I will be saying the truth, and in keeping with my age and everything
21 else, I assert that everything that I have said is exactly like I have
22 said it.
23 MS. MAZZOCCO: Thanks, Your Honour. I am finished.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much. Redirect,
25 Mr. Ivetic?
1 MR. IVETIC: It should be brief, about five questions. I think
2 we're over the time for the break, though. Is that accurate or ...
3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: How much time do we have?
4 MR. IVETIC: Five questions.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: If you can keep it short, let's just
6 inquire whether ...
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Then we will have a 20-minute break.
9 We'll resume at 12.00, and we hope you will keep it short. Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.40 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.01 p.m.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Ivetic, if you can give us a moment
13 to make sure that we get the witness identification sheet. Are we in
14 closed session? So we should go into closed session for a moment to make
15 that possible.
16 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I reviewed the transcript
23 during the break, and I found -- I think that the two questions that I
24 was going to ask are sufficiently already covered; therefore, I -- sorry.
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are open session, Your Honours.
1 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I'll back up. Thank you, Your
2 Honours. I reviewed the transcript during the break, and I think that
3 the questions that I was going to ask have already been sufficiently
4 covered; therefore, I have no further questions for this witness, and I
5 would only thank her on behalf of the Milan Lukic Defence team for
6 testifying here today.
7 Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
9 Witness, I am very happy to say that this ends your examination.
10 Thank you very much for your cooperation. You may now go. Thank you
11 very much.
12 MS. MAZZOCCO: Your Honours, sorry. If we could have an exhibit
13 that was used during the cross only marked for identification.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. So ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this map shall be given Exhibit
17 P242 marked for identification. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you. So if there are no further
19 matters, we can adjourn, but before I give you the floor, Mr. Groome, I
20 just wanted to confirm from the Milan Lukic Defence the position on the
21 witnesses. We are not clear about what is going to happen next week.
22 It's Wednesday, so we would expect your witness by close of business
23 today, your witness list, but we seem to understand that it's going to be
24 an empty list or a list with question marks.
25 MR. ALARID: Not necessarily, Your Honour. We were able to
1 obtain passport information for three witnesses. This was requested, so
2 you can see the due diligence. We've requested this the beginning of
3 January, but the process took its due course, I guess.
4 So we're hoping that we should have witnesses, but I can
5 anticipate that it would be an end-of-the-week scheduling issue, so I
6 would -- we could not have Monday, Tuesday, is my feelings.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you for that.
8 MR. ALARID: Unless there would be a reconsideration of the Court
9 on the protective measures of yesterday, of course, we could schedule
10 her, as well, but I understand the ruling is already done.
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: The ruling has been given, Mr. Alarid,
12 and I just can repeat over and over again our concern over this and over
13 the lack of flow in the way in which you are presenting your witnesses,
14 and I understand the difficulties that you have. We have been through
15 this many times, but I just want to reiterate the concerns of the Trial
17 MR. ALARID: I respect that, Your Honour, and to be honest, we
18 share your concerns wholeheartedly. Thank you.
19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you. Mr. Groome, you still wanted
20 to say something.
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, just briefly. Today, the Defence
22 of Milan Lukic filed the expert report of Dr. Warner Anderson. In the
23 report, he talks about receiving a number of photos and videos from the
24 Defence, and quoting from the report he says:
25 "Assuming they show all her injuries."
1 The report itself doesn't specify which photos and which videos
2 he received. It would be helpful for the Prosecution in evaluating and
3 making its submissions on his expertise if we could have an inventory of
4 the photographs and the videos that he reviewed in preparation of his
5 report. Thank you.
6 MR. ALARID: May I -- just -- Mr. Groome, you could have asked me
7 for that no problem. Absolutely no problem.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Very pleased to see how good the
9 cooperation between the two parties.
10 MR. ALARID: We got to try sometime, Judge.
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes. We have a good atmosphere in this
12 court. I'm very happy to close on that note. So we rise.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.06 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of
15 February, 2009, at 8.50 a.m.