1 Wednesday, 25 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 3.08 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the very outset, I'd like to apologise for
6 the very late start. I had originally scheduled a start at 2.45, and now
7 it is ten past 3.00. I do apologise. It is entirely due to the fact
8 that I had duties to perform in my other role for the Tribunal.
9 Now, Mr. Alarid, I understand you have a matter to raise.
10 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. The only matter that -- for the
11 session is just a notice that the Milutinovic Judgement is coming down
12 tomorrow contemporaneous with our case as well; and, of course, both
13 counsel in the room are participants in that and would like to be there.
14 But the quandary is, of course, one of our witnesses is not here yet for
15 tomorrow yet any way because of the plane crash at Schipol or whatever
16 happened there and so that witness has been re-routed to Brussels and
17 we're anticipating -- but it would be also be Mr. Ivetic' role to proof
18 that witness as well two others.
19 We had the three proofed for today so that wasn't a problem. We
20 had anticipated actually all six being done in only two court sessions
21 considering the brief nature of their testimony. So I was hoping on
22 behalf of the other counsel in the room to request tomorrow afternoon off
23 and/or rescheduled to the morning although that still provides some
24 problems possibly with the proofing of witnesses. So I didn't know if
25 the Court was going to be amenable to some sort of consideration of the
1 Judgement coming down tomorrow afternoon.
2 Thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Milutinovic starts when, Mr. Alarid?
5 MR. ALARID: 2.15, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say Mr. Ivetic is involved in -- in relation
10 to one of the witnesses.
11 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. He has -- his role has been to
12 proof the Serbian speaking witnesses and what-not, so you know because of
13 course when I treat him solely as a translator, it slows things down. It
14 is difficult to get through proofing sessions when he is created an
15 intermediary. That is one of the primary roles as his duties here, as
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I am very reluctant to -- to be breaking
19 again after a two-week break.
20 MR. ALARID: And understood, Your Honour, I mean, on a
21 push-comes-to-shove scenario, I could do the direct examination with my
22 new legal assistant in the courtroom who speaks the language to assist me
23 but I mean that would, you know, be a fallback position.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe we would have to do with that
1 position. I'm grateful to you, Mr. Alarid.
2 MR. ALARID: I will accommodate the Court.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have lost a tremendous amount of time in this
5 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour, and, you know, in the nature of
6 trying to pair down the witness list other than outstanding matters with
7 the experts and what-not, we are getting close to a point, I think, where
8 we can focus the Defence case to a point where I think it needs to be so
9 we have been trying to whittle down the witnesses as we speak. We are
10 still going to finish in the time-frame allotted by the Court, if all
11 goes well.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will have a session tomorrow afternoon
13 at 2.15.
14 Let the witness be called.
15 MR. IVETIC: It is MLD21, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Madam Registrar, number what, 11 or ... no, no,
17 the number of the witnesses for the Defence.
18 THE REGISTRAR: I will check.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD21
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may sit, and you may begin,
1 Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
4 Q. Good day, sir, as you know, my name is Mr. Ivetic and I am one of
5 the attorneys for Milan Lukic in these proceedings. I'm going to have to
6 refer to you today by your pseudonym of MLD21 in line with the protective
7 measures that have been granted for you.
8 With that in mind, and with the usher's assistance, I would like
9 to show you a pseudonym sheet, and when that -- when you get a chance
10 to --
11 A. There are some minor technical issues. The headset is falling
13 There is a minor technical issue with the headset. It's sort of
14 sliding off my head. May I please tighten them a little bit.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Usher.
16 Q. Now, Witness, you would like to you review the pseudonym sheet
17 that has been placed before you, and could you verify for us that it
18 correctly lists your name and your last name along with the pseudonym,
20 A. This is correct.
21 Q. I would then ask that you sign or initial the bottom of that
23 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I would move to introduce this
24 into evidence under seal as the next available 1D Defence number.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D10. ID10 under seal, Your Honours.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 Q. Sir, could you please state for the record what ethnicity you
5 A. I'm an Orthodox Serb.
6 Q. And now without telling us the precise location, could you tell
7 us what municipality you live in?
8 A. Visegrad.
9 Q. And where -- that is to say, in what municipality did you reside
10 in the year 1992?
11 A. Visegrad.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private
14 session I'd like to discuss some matters that would reveal the identity
15 of the witness if done in open court.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 4745-4746 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Q. Now, sir, we are in open session, so everything we say is being
11 broadcast to the public; so I would caution you to be very careful not to
12 reveal any identifying details about yourself.
13 Now, upon your return to Visegrad, did there come to be a time
14 when you were mobilised?
15 A. In May, all able-bodied men got assignments in the army or the
16 reserve police forces. Invalids, the sick, and the elderly, stayed back
17 in the factory, continued working there and made sure the place was still
19 Q. And with respect to yourself, did there come to be a time when
20 you were personally mobilised?
21 A. Yes, at the time.
22 Q. Do you know the date in May or ... any time-period that you make
23 a reference to?
24 A. Sometime in May. I don't remember the date. It may have been
25 the 8th or the 10th.
1 Q. And with respect to the mobilisation, can you describe for us the
2 process by which you and other able-bodied males from Visegrad were
4 A. Mobilisation call-ups were sent out by the recruitment office and
5 people were categorised according to their military specialty the same
6 criteria being used as had been used at the time by the JNA.
7 Q. Thank you. Again, waiting for the transcript. Could you tell us
8 after the mobilisation call-ups were sent out by the recruitment office
9 what steps did persons like yourself have to do?
10 A. I responded to the call-up with my unit, and then my unit
11 assigned me to the command security detail.
12 Q. And the command -- the security detail of the command. First of
13 all, where was the command located?
14 A. The command was at Bikavac in the hotel. The hotel was being
15 used for those purposes. Food was being stored there for all of the
17 Q. And without going into details that may identify you, can you
18 please tell us what kind of tasks or assignments you performed at your
19 command security post at the command?
20 A. Personally providing security for the command, the facilities,
21 and the physical items there. Primarily, in my case, it meant food.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. As part of your duties, did you have occasion to come in contact
1 with the persons at the command who were responsible for driving the food
2 to the forces at the front lines and at their positions and distributing
3 the same?
4 A. I would just help them with loading the stuff.
5 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the names of the individuals who
6 participated in driving the food in the van or truck to the various
7 locations where the food needed to go?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you -- can you give us their names?
10 A. There were a number of them. Mladen Petkoza, Josip,
11 Stevo Milosavljevic, Milojko Vukovic, there quite a number of people
12 involved. I can hardly be expected to provide all of their names.
13 Q. Okay. Well, if you please focus on two of them that you
14 mentioned. You mentioned a gentleman named Josip. Do you recall what
15 ethnicity or religious group Josip belonged to?
16 A. He was a Croat.
17 Q. And you mentioned another person, I'm sorry I can't see the
18 transcript. The last name and the first name was Stevo, I think, what
19 could you tell us about him?
20 A. Yes. He was a Serb. A driver with Centrotrans. He was married
21 and had two children.
22 Q. Do you know what happened to these two individuals, Josip and
24 A. They were both killed. They drove over a mine, when they were
25 taking food to some people who were at positions.
1 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what structure or force these
2 individuals belonged to, Josip and Stevo?
3 A. They belonged to the VRS.
4 Q. Thank you. Moving along, do you know a man named Vidoje Andric?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I think I probably need to go into
7 private session to ensure that my further questioning on this topic
8 doesn't reveal the identity of this witness.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 4751-4753 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. You've -- sir, you've detailed for us your encounters with
8 Milan Lukic. Did you have occasion -- strike that. Let me ask you --
9 let me back up.
10 Are you familiar with individual named Sladjan Simic, and if so,
11 could you tell us who that man was.
12 A. Sladjan Simic was a young man from Bosanska Jagodina.
13 Q. During the war, what was his position, rank, or post?
14 A. I don't know what his rank was. He led a group of scouts. The
15 group included about ten men.
16 Q. And when you say he led a group of scout, to what entity or
17 structure did these scouts belong?
18 A. The Army of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. And what can you tell us about your knowledge of any of the
20 individuals who were members of this group of army scouts led by
21 Sladjan Simic from Bosanska Jagodina?
22 A. Well, their task was to reconnoitre the terrain.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. I want to thank you on behalf of the Defence of
24 Milan Lukic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, those are all the questions I have on
1 direct examination for this witness, and I would pass the witness to
2 the --
3 One moment.
4 I apologise, Your Honours, yes, I'm finished with the witness.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
8 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Dermot Groome. I'm going to ask
9 you a few questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
10 Could I ask that we go into private session, Your Honour. The
11 first series of questions have to do with --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 4756-4761 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
9 MR. GROOME:
10 Q. Sir, in the summary that we were given and in the statement that
11 we were given about your evidence, we were advised that you were going to
12 provide some evidence about the White Eagles; and I don't recall that you
13 have given any on your direct examination, but I do want to ask you a
14 couple of questions regarding paramilitary groups that may have been in
15 and around Visegrad in 1992.
16 Did you see any paramilitary formations in the town of Visegrad
17 in the spring and summer of 1992?
18 MR. ALARID: Objection. Lack of foundation as to paramilitary.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What kind of foundation are you expecting?
20 MR. ALARID: The question expects that the witness understands
21 what paramilitary means.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you understand, Witness, what the term
23 "paramilitary" means? I'm asking you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You do? He does so let's proceed with the --
1 the answer. You were asked whether you saw any paramilitary formations
2 in Visegrad, in the spring or summer of 1992.
3 What is your answer?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally did not see them, nor
5 do I personally know anyone.
6 MR. GROOME:
7 Q. So, sir, from what you have described to us already, it seems
8 that you were a person who was there the entire time and who would have
9 with great frequency have passed through the centre part of the town. Is
10 it your evidence that in the spring and summer of 1992, you did not see
11 any paramilitary formations or paramilitaries in and around Visegrad?
12 A. Let me repeat, I personally did not see them.
13 Q. Do you agree with me that had they been there, you would have
14 been in a position to see them?
15 MR. ALARID: Objection. Calls for speculation.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't know that.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, just a minute. He followed on from what
18 counsel said. Perhaps you might reformulate the question or move on,
19 Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME:
21 Q. Well, sir, correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me that what you
22 have testified to is that you would have -- if not on a daily basis, on a
23 very regular basis have been in and around the centre of Visegrad; is
24 that not correct?
25 A. Can you please repeat that?
1 Q. Were you in and around the centre of Visegrad frequently during
2 the spring and summer of 1992.
3 A. Well, the command was in town. That is a kilometre or two from
4 the centre. That is the spot.
5 Q. Would you pass through the centre of town when you were going
7 A. I would.
8 Q. Would you pass in front of the new hotel next to the old bridge?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How often would you pass in front of the new hotel?
11 A. Perhaps once in two days.
12 Q. If paramilitaries were staying at the new hotel, would you
13 believe that you would have seen them?
14 A. Certainly.
15 Q. Did you -- I asked you about paramilitary formations. Did you
16 ever, at any time, see an individual who you believed was not part of the
17 regular police or part of the regular army but would have been an
18 individual paramilitary?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you go to the command in Bikavac every day?
21 A. Every second day, that is how my particular shift was.
22 Q. The command centre that you have spoken about, that was in the
23 hotel in Bikavac; is that not correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. The Chamber has already heard evidence about a very serious fire
1 where there was a significant loss of life just a few streets from the
2 Bikavac hotel at the end of June. Do you recall seeing anything or
3 hearing anything with respect to a -- a fire of that description in
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is it possible that you have heard or learned something, but you
7 have since forgotten?
8 A. It is not.
9 Q. Sir, when you first began going to the Bikavac command post,
10 would it be fair to say that there were still a large number of Muslim
11 residents living in the Bikavac area; is that not correct?
12 A. In the area -- I don't know that there was a single Muslim in the
13 area of Bikavac at that time. When Murat actually opened the sluice
14 gates on the dam, all the Muslims fled Visegrad.
15 Q. So is it your evidence that during the time that you were going
16 to the Bikavac command centre that you did not see Muslim families in and
17 around the area of Bikavac?
18 A. I did not.
19 Q. Did you see Muslim houses in Bikavac being burned?
20 A. Both Serbian and Muslim houses were being set on fire.
21 Q. And during what period of time did you see houses being burnt in
22 the Bikavac area of town?
23 A. That same year, 1992.
24 Q. Was it during the time that you were on duty at the
25 Bikavac hotel?
1 A. I cannot recall with precision, but it was around that time.
2 Q. And would it be fair to say that houses quite close to the
3 Bikavac command centre were destroyed by fire?
4 A. There was not a single house on fire around the command post, but
5 there were some houses on fire in -- on the outskirts of town.
6 Q. Sir, I want to ask you about your contact or how you came to be a
8 Can I ask you who first contacted you about being a witness in
9 this case?
10 A. A gentleman whose name I believe was -- got in touch with me.
11 His name was Vlado, I think.
12 Q. Sir, I see that you're now referring to some notes that looks
13 like a pad from a hotel. Are those some notes that you have from -- from
14 a hotel stationery that you -- that you have made since coming to
15 The Hague?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you mind if I take a look at them?
18 A. I have nothing. I just jotted down the names of people here.
19 Q. But you have referred to some notes that you have on hotel
20 stationery. If they relate to this case, I would appreciate an
21 opportunity to take a look at them.
22 A. No problem.
23 Q. Thank you. If you hand them to the usher, then she will allow me
24 to look at them, and I will work with an interpreter over the break to
25 take a look at them.
1 Sir, can you tell us the names of other --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, pass them to the Defence and the
3 Bench as well.
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. Sir, while we are they're being shown I did happen to notice,
6 even though I don't speak the language, that on the top of it is the name
7 of the person who was discussed in closed session, the person that you
8 have a very good recollection of what happened so so long ago. Why did
9 you need to have his name written down on the -- the note paper, given
10 your fine powers of recollection?
11 A. I did so in order to have a concept.
12 Q. Can you explain by what you mean by having a concept?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, a reminder.
14 The witness also added: A reminder of whom I had been with in
15 those days.
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. Well, sir, I believe that when I asked you did you have any
18 reminder of that event, you said that you had no reminder; is that not
20 A. I didn't mean any reminder in a big way. I mean, this is nothing
22 Q. So is it your evidence that you recall this event almost 17 years
23 ago, and the day before you give evidence about it, you make a reminder
24 of the person you met, and you write his name down on this piece of
25 paper; is that correct?
1 A. I don't see what's disputable about that.
2 Q. I'm not disputing -- I'm just asking you -- am I stating what has
3 happened here correctly?
4 A. Well, I don't know. You can interpret it any way you like.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on, Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. Can you tell us the name of all the other members of the Defence
8 team who you had contact with prior to coming to testify here today.
9 A. I was with Mr. Ivetic.
10 Q. How many times did you meet with Mr. Ivetic?
11 A. I think once, before I arrived in The Hague.
12 Q. And then did you meet him again after coming to The Hague?
13 A. Once, in Visegrad.
14 Q. Did you ever have any contact with a person by the name of Drago?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever have contact with Milan Lukic's sister, Draginja?
17 A. I don't even know her.
18 Q. Did you ever have contact with a person by the name of
19 Jelena Rasic?
20 A. No. I don't know her either.
21 Q. I'm going to give you some names -- put some names to you and ask
22 you do you know any of these people.
23 Do you know a person by the name of Boban Simsic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us what you know about Boban Simsic?
1 MR. ALARID: Objection as to the form of the question: Vague.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us what you know about
3 Boban Simsic?
4 I would agree, Mr. Groome, that is a vague question.
5 MR. GROOME: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. How do you know Boban Simsic?
9 A. I know his father, I know his mother; and I have known him ever
10 since he was a small child.
11 Q. Did you ever know him to be a member of a paramilitary formation?
12 A. No, never, sir.
13 Q. How about a person by the name of Oliver Krsmanovic; do you know
14 a person by that name?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Dragutin Dragicevic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Djordje Sevic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. How about Niko Vujicic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How about a person by the name of Mitar Vasiljevic?
23 A. I know him.
24 Q. How do you know him?
25 A. He was a waiter, and - excuse my language - an ordinary lush.
1 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that you be shown Exhibit P149.
2 But before I do that, how many times between the first time you
3 met Milan Lukic and the time that you had another encounter in August,
4 how many times or with what frequency did you see him?
5 A. Very, very rarely.
6 MR. GROOME: Actually, Your Honour, I have no further questions
7 that I want to ask at this time. If I could just ask that the witness be
8 kept in the building while -- and during the break I will have someone
9 read the note, and I ask that I have an opportunity to ask some questions
10 that may arise from what is written on the reminder note that the witness
11 brought to court with him. But I have no further questions that I wish
12 to ask at this time.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not sure I understand the request, Mr. Groome.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the note that the witness says was a
15 reminder that he brought to court.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Oh, I see, that note.
17 MR. GROOME: So just if I can have an opportunity to understand
18 it. I may not have any questions arising from it, but in the event I do,
19 I ask that the witness be kept in the building.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Uh-huh.
21 MR. IVETIC: I have one or two questions on redirect. I don't
22 know if you want to do them now. I don't know when the break is with the
23 new schedule.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we will take the break at 4.40.
25 MR. IVETIC: Perfect.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We started at 3.10. So we take a break at 4.40.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
4 Q. Again Mr. Witness, just to clear up some matters. I didn't have
5 the B/C/S channel on, so I don't know how it was translated to you, but
6 you were asked about your contacts with the Defence team; and you -- and
7 you correctly indicated that we meant once there Visegrad, could you tell
8 us, do you recall the meetings that we had in the hotel with VWS present
9 these days at the hotel here in The Hague where are you staying?
10 A. Yes, I remember those meetings.
11 Q. Thank you. And do you -- could you tell for the Trial Chamber
12 with respect to the meeting that we had this morning where we were
13 situated and where the VWS individual, I won't mention his name due to
14 their policy, was situated while I was performing your proofing. The
15 gentleman who let you use his phone to call home.
16 A. We were sitting on the opposite side.
17 Q. But that gentleman was present in the room with us, was -- is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that is all I have on behalf of
21 re-direct. I thank the witness again on behalf of the Milan Lukic, and I
22 it leave it to Your Honours' discretion if he needs to stay. I move on
23 to the next witness.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I'm inclined to do is take the break now,
25 Mr. Groome, in order to facility the earliest departure of the witness.
1 I would just take the break now and then you let us know whether you have
2 any further questions, so in that case, the witness would return, yes?
3 If you don't have any further questions, then let us know before
4 the end of the break.
5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
6 --- Recess taken at 4.25 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 4.53 p.m.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, I understand you to do have a few
9 more questions arising from your perusal of the note.
10 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
11 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, just a few questions. Your
12 Honour, I have a very draft translation that some of my staff were able
13 to do over the course of the break. I would ask with the assistance of
14 the usher if they could be distributed to both the Bench and the Defence
15 counsel. Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, while that is being distributed, could I ask you when did
17 you write these notes? Did you hear my question?
18 A. Today. An hour before I went to the Tribunal.
19 Q. And were you with anyone when you wrote the note?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I'm going ask that you be given a photocopy of the note. I am
22 going to ask that the original be tendered into evidence as a Prosecution
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P244, under seal, Your Honours.
25 MR. GROOME:
1 Q. Sir, the first question I want to ask you is, is there two names
2 that you wrote on this note on the top left-hand corner. Am I correct in
3 saying that these men are now deceased?
4 A. They're not -- they didn't die a natural death; they were killed.
5 Q. But they both are dead today. They're -- both of them are no
6 longer living; is that correct?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Mr. Ivetic discussed these two names with you in private session.
9 Is -- if I are were to mention their names and ask you something about
10 these men here in open session would that compromise your identity or
11 your security in any way?
12 MR. ALARID: Objection. Calls for speculation. I would ask that
13 we move into private session.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, Mr. Alarid is proceeding on the basis that
16 it is better to err on the side of precaution.
17 I would agree.
18 Let's move into private --
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might just be heard. I think all
20 of us here place great value on the public nature of these proceedings.
21 These are men that are dead for more than 15 years. If the witness has a
22 reason to have some concern about mentioning those names in public
23 session, then I have absolutely no objection to going into private
24 session, but if the witness says there is no possibility that his
25 security will be compromised then I don't see why we would be in private
2 MR. ALARID: And again how could the witness be in a position to
3 know that. It is only the person that recognises someone from an
4 association that actually exposes the identity. The witness cannot know
5 such a thing. On the err of caution, I still argue that we move into
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it is not my intention to ask about any
8 association simply about how he knows how this man died.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Ask him the question, whether he -- in
10 his view, his identify would be compromised. Please ask him again.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Sir, I'm interested in the first name more precisely. If I were
13 to ask you what you know about that first man in open session, would that
14 compromise your identity or cause you any fear for your security?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would ask that we go into private
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 4775 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Sir, I asked you to take a look of the photocopy of the note you
10 brought to court to refresh your memory. Can I ask you to read what is
11 written directly after the names of the two men that we have just
12 discussed in private session.
13 A. All of this?
14 Q. I'm just looking -- if you would read the top line, on the top
15 right-hand corner. It begins with: "I met Milan."
16 A. No. I introduced Milan to these other two. That's what it says.
17 Q. So your note says that you introduced Milan to these other two.
18 Is my memory correct of your evidence that you were introduced to Milan
19 on this occasion. Was that not your testimony in direct examination?
20 A. It was with these two men that I met Milan.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, this could be read both
22 ways. It was with these two men that I was introduced to Milan or that I
23 met Milan; but also I introduced Milan to these two men. Both reading
24 are possible.
25 MR. GROOME: Thank you to the interpreters.
1 Q. Sir, so is it your evidence that you needed to write this
2 reminder that you met Milan Lukic with these two men and their names
3 spelled out, just hours before you testified here in court.
4 A. Perhaps.
5 Q. Now the second line of the -- could I ask you to read the second
6 line in the -- in the note, beginning with: "I was looking" --
7 I'm sorry, could I ask you read to the names, that's the part
8 that I'm more interested in. The names beginning with Mile Bozic?
9 A. Gogic, Nedeljko; Joksimovic --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Could you please say the name of the last person again?
13 A. Bozic, Mile; Gogic, Nedeljko; or Joksimovic, Timotije. They were
14 from the same village but I didn't know if they were together. I wanted
15 to track down any one of them.
16 Q. And you needed to write -- again you needed to write a reminder
17 of who they were that you were seeking to give sugar and coffee to, just
18 a few hours before you testified here in court.
19 You nodded your head, but we need to have an audible answer to
20 complete the record.
21 A. It's not like I needed to, but there you go, I did. Just in
22 order to jog my memory.
23 Q. And finally, sir, I just ask you to read the line that begins
24 with: "In August."
25 Could you read that for us?
1 A. Later he was in the army with Sladjan Simic. In August, he was
2 at Jelasice. This is the time when those people were killed at Jelasice.
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you that you given a fine-point pen. I'm
4 just going to ask you at the bottom of the paper that you have before
5 you, the photocopy could I ask you just to re-write the line that says,
6 "I was looking for someone from the reserve force of the police." Could
7 I just ask you just in your own hand write that somewhere on the
8 photocopy of the -- could I ask to be a fine-point pen. I have one here?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
10 MR. ALARID: Objection as to relevance.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me find out what the objection, Mr. Alarid.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 MR. ALARID: Objection as to relevance. Where is this going?
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The witness will write it.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Sir, would you please just somewhere in the blank portion
20 underneath the photocopy just copy over the line that reads: "I was
21 looking for someone from the reserve force of the police."
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you, sir. If I could just take a quick look at that.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: And then pass it to the Bench and to counsel.
25 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
1 Q. Sir, I put it to you and I put to you quite plainly that you do
2 not have any recollection of the events that you testified to because
3 they never happened. They're a fabrication, and the note that you
4 brought into court or to remind you was necessary to remind you of what
5 the fabrication is.
6 Do you understand what I'm putting to you, sir?
7 A. That's not true, sir. You don't know what it was like to be in
8 my shoes during those days. What I heard with my own ears, what I saw
9 with my own eyes, that was the account that I gave.
10 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MR. GROOME: Sorry, I'd ask that -- I tender that other exhibit.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes it is admitted.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P245, under seal, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, do you wish to ask anything in
16 relation to this?
17 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour, I don't think so. I thank the
18 witness on behalf of the Milan Lukic Defence.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Witness. That concludes your
20 evidence. We thank you for giving it. You may now leave.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The next witness.
24 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours, that should be MLD9.
25 MS. SARTORIO: I believe it is 19. I believe you mean 19.
1 MR. IVETIC: I believe he is actually also number 9 and 19. He
2 has received protective measures twice. According to my records, we had
3 disclosed the statement under 9, so that is how I picked that pseudonym.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we settled as to who is being called,
6 Madam Registrar?
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's the same witness, apparently.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting just so there is
11 not greater confusion when it comes time and in final submissions, I just
12 ask Mr. Ivetic to clarify. I'm looking at a filing here from 7
13 January 2009, where a person whose last name begins with a K is
14 identified as MLD19. Is that the person who is being called now and I
15 think it might make more sense to refer to him by the pseudonym that has
16 been used more recently.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, can you clarify?
19 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I can. I would like to do it in private
20 session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.
22 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD19
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. Good day, sir. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I will be asking you
8 questions today on behalf of the Defence of Milan Lukic.
9 I'm going to be referring to you by the pseudonym of MLD19, in
10 line with the protective measures that have been granted to you.
11 First of all, I would ask the assistance of the court usher to
12 distribute and then present in front of you a pseudonym sheet that have I
13 prepared. And then once that sheet is before you, sir, I would ask you
14 to review the same and to verify that it accurately sets forth your
15 identifying details.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
19 Q. Sir, could you review the pseudonym sheet that has been placed in
20 front you and verify whether, in fact, it accurately states your
21 identification details.
22 A. Yes, I confirm the data is correct.
23 Q. I would ask that you sign and -- sign the bottom of the form;
24 and, Your Honours, I would ask that it be admitted in evidence under seal
25 as the next available 1D number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D11, under seal.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 Q. Sir, could you please, for the record, state your ethnic
5 A. A Serb.
6 Q. And now without going into details that would -- that would
7 disclose your identity, for the record, could you tell us in which
8 municipality you reside today?
9 A. Visegrad municipality.
10 Q. And where did you reside; that is to say, in which municipality
11 did you reside in 1992?
12 A. In Uzice municipality.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we can go into private session for the next
14 several questions will deal with personal matters of the witness's
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Q. Now, if we could focus on the outbreak of tensions in
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Were you mobilised; and, if so, could you give us
17 the details of your mobilisation.
18 A. I was engaged to drive my truck. The former Yugoslav army
19 actually recruited me to do that; namely, transport different materials
20 because some extremists had demolished some tunnels and roads; so they
21 were unable to clear up the roads and the tunnels, and they had us come
22 with our trucks from Visegrad in order to clear the site and cut away the
23 rubble and the other material there.
24 Q. You say you were engaged to clear the site and cut away the
25 rubble. What specific tasks did you undertake while mobilised?
1 A. Well, we worked near Dobrun, which is to say at the very border
2 with Serbia. The road had caved in, and the tunnels had been blown up by
3 unknown extremists who had placed explosives and blown up the tunnels.
4 Q. You say that the army had come to you -- to us, with our trucks
5 from Visegrad. At that time, were you residing or employed in Visegrad
7 A. No. We would just occasionally go because they were there. We
8 were nearby. We would go to the barracks in Kremna where we would sleep,
9 and we travelled with army vehicles.
10 Q. And what kind of vehicle registration plates were on your truck
11 that you utilised at that time?
12 A. It was G, which is a Z with a mark above it, with civilian
13 licence plates.
14 Q. Any particular republic of the former SFRY?
15 A. In Bosnia, they were registered in Visegrad, and Visegrad did not
16 issue its own licence plates so that they bore Gorazde, GZ, were the
17 licence plates.
18 Q. Did you remain so mobilised and so engaged in the Yugoslav army's
19 business the entire duration of the convict or did that change at any
20 point in time?
21 A. We were engaged over the first month of the conflict. Sometime
22 until the 16th of May, when the army departed the territory of Bosnia and
24 Q. Waiting for the translation and the transcript.
25 And after the army departed -- or when the army departed the
1 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, what did you do at that point in
2 time, sir?
3 A. I went to Serbia to live, because there no longer -- it was no
4 longer secure in Bosnia. No one knew who was in power nor what was
5 happening in that republic, or in the town in which I had been living,
6 for that matter.
7 Q. And did you -- you say you went to Serbia to live. Did you go
8 alone, did you go with someone else? How did you -- how did you go to
10 A. I went there with my family. I loaded our things onto a vehicle.
11 I rented out a room in Uzice, and I lived there with my wife and my
13 Q. Okay. Now, what happened with your truck? Did it remain behind
14 in Visegrad?
15 A. No. I drove the truck there, and I continued to work in Serbia,
16 because that was the former Yugoslavia; and I already had some contract
17 with the some companies for whom I undertook transport work, and I
18 continued to work in that capacity in Uzice.
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if we can go in private session I
20 believe the next couple questions are of a nature that might reveal the
21 identity of the witness to third parties.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 4787 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Now, sir, during the time-period that you lived in Uzice in 1992,
7 did you -- did there come a time where you met or encountered Milan Lukic
8 during that time-period, during the war?
9 A. Yes. Two men came, one of whom was Milan Lukic. He introduced
10 himself as Milan Lukic. And the other one was a policeman. Both were in
11 uniforms. They were also carrying batons and had on camouflage uniforms,
12 with pips on their shoulders.
13 One day they came outside my flat. I knew this first man. His
14 name was Vidoje Andric, and the said gentleman Milan Lukic actually
15 introduced himself to me on that occasion. I did not know him personally
16 before that.
17 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead. Continue.
18 A. They asked me to go back to Bosnia, because some sort of a
19 mobilisation had already started. Mobilisation for war. They told me
20 that a certain commander, Tomic, had sent instructions to the effect that
21 they were to call me to go to -- to go back to Visegrad.
22 Q. Do you recall the time-period or date when this encounter took
24 A. Well, it was sometime around June, the 20th or the 22nd of
25 June or thereabouts. I just happened to remember the date, because on
1 the 13th of June, the husband was killed of the lady who was the witness
2 at my wedding. That's why I remember the date.
3 MR. IVETIC: If we can go into private session so as not to
4 identify this relative of -- he said "kum," but I see something different
5 in the transcript.
6 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Q. Now I think you had already described the uniforms worn by these
16 individuals. Did you have occasion to see the automobile that they came
18 A. No, I did not see the automobile because there were many
19 automobiles in the street, and I could not tell which particular vehicle
20 they had come in.
21 Q. At the time that they came to your home in Uzice in June of 1992,
22 were you aware of any mobilisations in effect for Visegrad residents?
23 A. I wasn't, because I thought that that was a done matter. The --
24 that the war actually was over, the army had withdrawn, and that's what I
25 was thinking at the time. I did not suppose that there would be any
1 continuation of the conflict.
2 Q. Did Mr. Andric or Mr. Lukic take you into custody and force you
3 to come back to Visegrad with them on that occasion?
4 A. Well, given the fact that you knew this Andric fellow, he did not
5 insist very strongly on returning me to Visegrad.
6 Q. What -- what did you tell them as to your response to the
7 mobilisation request?
8 A. I told them that I had already contracts for some deals, that I
9 had deadlines to adhere to, that I had signed some contracts with firms
10 with companies, and that if I did not actually fulfil my obligations I
11 would be -- there would be penalties for me to pay and things like that.
12 That I could go then.
13 Q. Did you, in fact, return to Visegrad in compliance with the
14 mobilisation call-up or summons at any point in time?
15 A. No, not that year.
16 Q. Did you ever have occasion to return to Visegrad after the war
17 for any reason?
18 A. I returned because the conditions in Serbia were no longer
19 favourable for a normal life, so war also broke out then. It was the
20 time for us to go back to wherever we came from.
21 Q. Do you have a reference in time as to when it was that you went
22 back to Visegrad after the war: A month, a time-period, a season, a
24 A. It was in 1994. In early 1994.
25 Q. And did you remain in Visegrad from 1994 onwards?
1 A. Yes, I did. I remained in Visegrad.
2 Q. During the intervening time-period after you returned to
3 Visegrad; that is, post-1994. Did you have occasion at any point in time
4 to ever see the man who had come to your home with Vidoje Andric who had
5 been introduced to you as Milan Lukic?
6 A. Well, actually, I did not see him, because I was working,
7 repairing some forest roads. I was engaged by the army as a machine
8 operator. The machinery that was used to repair these roads, so that I
9 didn't have much occasion to -- I didn't have much contact with those
10 people. We worked until late into the evening. Then we would spend the
11 night in the barracks and then go home -- didn't go home, so that I
12 didn't see him.
13 Q. And what about after the war? Did you have occasion to ever see
14 Milan Lukic again after the war?
15 A. Yes. I worked in his house for his father. They had bought a
16 house, and I was excavating, doing excavations there for a garage near
17 his home. I also moved some earth there and carted it away with my
18 truck, and that's when I saw him.
19 Q. And where was there house of his father located?
20 A. It was some 600 or 700 metres distance from the new bridge, over
21 the Drina.
22 Q. And do you have any -- any reference in time as to when this took
24 A. Ah, well, 1996, thereabouts.
25 Q. And apart from the time during the war when he came to your house
1 in Uzice, and apart from this time after the war, when you were assisting
2 to constructs a garage at his father's home, did you have occasion to
3 encounter Milan Lukic at any other point in time after the war?
4 A. Well, yes. He owned a pub that I sometimes went to.
5 Q. And, for the record, could you identify for us where this pub
6 that he -- that he ran, where it was located?
7 A. It the centre of town, near the municipality building, about 150
8 metres being the distance between the two.
9 Q. Thank you, sir, for your time and your answers to my questions.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions in direct
11 for this witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.
13 MS. SARTORIO: Yes.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Sartorio:
15 Q. Sir, I'm from the Prosecution, and I would like to ask you a
16 couple of questions.
17 When is the first time that you were ever contacted by anyone
18 from the Defence of Milan Lukic about possibly testifying here today?
19 A. Summer last year.
20 Q. And do you recall the name of the person or persons who first
21 contacted you?
22 A. I don't remember the name.
23 Q. Was there more than one person; and where did you meet?
24 A. We met in Visegrad. There was a single person. The name, I
25 think, was Boris.
1 MR. ALARID: [Previous translation continues] ... line of
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio.
4 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, I think this is very standard
5 cross-examination for a witness. Asking about the circumstances when
6 they were first contacted to give testimony.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes I would agree, yes.
8 MR. ALARID: I would now object to the characterisation as to
9 this being standard.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Never mind, Mr. Alarid.
11 MS. SARTORIO:
12 Q. Sir, when you met in Visegrad can you tell us where you met? Was
13 it at someone's house or was it in a pub? And the person that you met,
14 was it a male or a female?
15 A. A male called Boris, as I said. We met in the courtyard outside
16 the Visegrad hotel.
17 Q. And is that -- was it at that point in time that you gave a
18 statement, a written statement?
19 A. The next time he came was the time I gave a statement, not that
20 first day.
21 Q. And when you gave the statement, did you personally write out the
22 statement; or was the statement written out for you?
23 A. I wrote it down myself.
24 Q. And you told the Defence in your statement everything that you
25 were going to testify about; is that correct?
1 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Cause for really a legal presentation
2 and speculation as to what he is going testify about. The Defence
3 presents witnesses and upon learning what they know, presents a witness
4 as the -- without a foundation as to what he knew of the purposes for
5 that statement being taken, I don't think that the question is proper.
6 MS. SARTORIO: I will withdraw that question and ask another one,
7 Your Honours.
8 Q. Sir, did you ever tell this person who came to see you that you
9 were going to testify about your knowledge of the good deeds and acts of
10 Milan Lukic?
11 A. I wasn't told anything about the deeds and acts of Milan Lukic.
12 They wanted to know about my goodwill to appear as a witness.
13 Q. Yes. But my question to you is: Did you ever tell them that you
14 would talk about good deeds and acts of Milan Lukic? Did you tell them
15 you would say those things?
16 MR. ALARID: Objection as to relevance. Lack of foundation.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 MS. SARTORIO:
19 Q. Did you ever tell team that you were going -- did you ever tell
20 them that you would testify about the intimidation an actions of Bosnian
21 authorities against Defence witnesses who were to meet and sign
22 statements? Did you ever tell them that you would testify to that?
23 MR. ALARID: May we go into private session.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
2 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I understand the nature of the --
3 Ms. Sartorio' questioning. However I would like to point out to the
4 Court that we filed our 65 ter summary before we ever met with this
5 witness. So this is based on a broad understanding. It is for notice
6 purposes only. It was only after personally meeting with the witness
7 whether we were able to ascertain what the witness could or could not
8 testify to.
9 I would object to the line of questioning as being improper
10 without lack of foundation, unduly suggestive, and otherwise spurious.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness answer the question, and we must
12 move on quickly, Ms. Sartorio.
13 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. May we go move public session.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, public session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 MS. SARTORIO:
18 Q. Sir, do you recall my last question?
19 A. I do. But I can't define your question. What is the question?
20 Am I expected to talk about his deeds or misdeeds? I was in no position
21 to know what it was that he had done at all. Good or bad. Therefore, I
22 can hardly be expected to talk about it, can I?
23 Q. I asked another question, and if you could listen carefully to my
25 My question was: Did you ever tell the person whom you met from
1 the Defence that you could testify about the intimidation and actions of
2 Bosnian authorities against Defence witnesses who were to meet and sign
3 statements. Did you ever tell them that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And one more similar question and that's it. I will move on.
6 Sir, did you -- did you ever tell anyone from the Defence that
7 you could testify that Milan Lukic saved the lives of the daughters of
8 Behija Zukic?
9 A. I never said that.
10 Q. Now, I just would like to ask you a couple of questions about
11 Uzice, which is where you lived in 1992; is that correct?
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. And I believe you testified on direct that you -- you went to
14 Serbia on the 16th of May, because of the conflict that was going on. Is
15 that -- that your -- recollection of your testimony?
16 A. Yes. On the 16th of May, the Army of Yugoslavia left, and I left
17 as part of that convoy. I left Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 Q. And so how far is Uzice, where you were living, from the
19 municipality of Visegrad?
20 A. 77 kilometres.
21 Q. So were you surprised when two men showed up at your door, asking
22 for you to return to Visegrad and be mobilised?
23 A. Well, yes. I had not been in time to be involved in the conflict
24 and that was the reason that I left Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. And, in fact, you never -- you did not go back to Visegrad with
1 those two men, did you.
2 A. No.
3 Q. And then I believe you testified that the next time you saw
4 Milan Lukic was long after the war was over -- or, let me paraphrase, it
5 was 1994; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, when I returned from Uzice.
7 Q. So the one and only time that you saw Milan Lukic during the
8 conflict was on that date that you say he came to your house. Is that
9 your testimony?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Let me ask you, are you related to either Milan Lukic or
12 Sredoje Lukic in any way, from any -- any family relations?
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, objection.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: My client is not mentioned in direct examination, so
16 I don't see any base for foundation any question and mentioning of my
17 client. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have been -- we have been there
19 before, haven't we? Or we have been over that ground before, and I don't
20 see anything improper in the question.
21 MS. SARTORIO: I believe the witness answered no.
22 Q. You said you were not related to either Milan Lukic or Sredoje.
23 Is that your answer.
24 A. Yes, I'm not related to either of them.
25 Q. Do you know who Sredoje Lukic is?
1 A. Well, I know nothing about him.
5 MR. CEPIC: Objection. Your Honour. This witness already gave
6 clear answer related to Sredoje Lukic. That he doesn't know anything
7 about him. I don't see the basis for further questions related to my
8 client. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe he has answered sufficiently on that
10 issue. So please move on Ms. Sartorio.
11 MS. SARTORIO: Thank you, Your Honour. That should also be
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
14 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.
15 Q. Now I would like to ask you some questions about when Milan Lukic
16 and Mr. Andric showed up at your house.
17 Can you describe in detail what they were wearing?
18 A. They had a sort of camouflage uniform, blue, police with belts,
19 handcuffs, a gun, and a truncheon, small guns, short-barrelled, and
20 truncheon, club, whatever it's called.
21 Q. Were they wearing any type of hats or caps or anything on their
23 A. Caps. On their shoulders with the three-colour flag insignia.
24 These were caps that we referred to as the French caps, or berets. I
25 believe that is the name.
1 Q. And was there any type of emblem or insignia on the caps or
2 berets that you mentioned?
3 A. Well, I said it, didn't I? The three-coloured flag: Red, white,
5 Q. Well, you said that that was on their shoulder. And my question
6 to you was: Was there any insignia or emblem on the cap, not the
8 A. It was on the caps, the front side of the caps and they wore
9 these caps sort of tucked in under their shoulder straps.
10 Q. Now, had you seen these types of uniforms before, on other
12 A. Well, this was the kind worn by Serbia's police, what we referred
13 to as intervention units. But the colours were slightly different,
14 different hues. Still blue but a different shade of blue.
15 Q. And can you tell us what you meant by "intervention units"?
16 A. These are specialised units, a bit like riot police, and they're
17 specially trained to perform some particular military missions.
18 Q. And did you know any other members of this so-called intervention
20 MR. IVETIC: Objection. Your Honour, misstated the evidence. He
21 did not indicate that they were members of an intervention unit, specific
22 at page 59, lines 10 through 11 he said: The uniforms were the kind worn
23 by Serbia's police, what we called them French units, but the colours
24 were slightly different.
25 MS. SARTORIO: I'll --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Perhaps you will reformulate then.
2 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I will.
3 Q. So you said that the colours were like the ones worn by the
4 intervention unit. So it your testimony that this what they were -- the
5 uniform that Milan Lukic and Mr. Andric were wearing were not -- that
6 they were not of the intervention unit, that they were not from that unit
7 because it was a different type of uniform.
8 Is that your testimony?
9 A. Well, yeah, I said that, didn't I? Not the same colour. Not the
10 same pattern. The stripes on that uniform. Not the same as those other
11 ones that you mentioned, the intervention ones.
12 Q. Which -- which uniforms had stripes? The ones that Milan Lukic
13 was wearing or the ones from the intervention unit.
14 A. Both types of uniform had stripes, but they were different. The
15 shade is different. One is a deeper shade of blue and the other, paler.
16 Q. So I go back to a question that I asked a few moments ago.
17 Did you ever see anyone else or did you know anyone else who wore
18 the same uniforms as those two men wore that night you saw them, in
19 Uzice. Can you give us the names of any other persons whom you've seen
20 wearing those uniforms?
21 A. No. I didn't know any of them.
22 Q. Sir, do you know how Mr. Andric was employed?
23 A. I didn't know what it was that he did. I know that before the
24 war he was a karate coach in a club or something like that.
25 Q. Now, may we go into closed session?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute Ms. Sartorio.
13 Mr. Alarid, may I ask you, do you have witnesses lined up for the
14 rest of the evening?
15 MR. IVETIC: We have one more that should be here on the
16 premises, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the premises?
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MS. SARTORIO: Just one -- just a couple of more questions,
21 Your Honour.
22 Q. Sir, just one more question. You never committed any crimes with
23 Milan Lukic, did you?
24 A. No, never.
25 MS. SARTORIO: I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination?
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
4 Q. Working backwards.
10 Let's remain in private.
11 Q. Sir, with regard to the issue of the manner in which your
12 testimony was disclosed on 65 ter summary that was filed in, I believe,
13 November, do you recall when it was that you and I met in Visegrad? What
14 month or time of year?
15 A. Yes, I remember. It was late December.
16 Q. And when I met with you in Visegrad, did I inquire of you about
17 the intervention of SIPA and the incident involving a witness to the
18 saving of Behija Zukic's daughters by Milan Lukic?
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
20 No, you didn't.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did we discuss that individual in our meeting in Visegrad?
7 A. We did.
8 Q. And did we -- did we discuss that individual's --
9 MS. SARTORIO: Objection, Your Honour, this is going outside the
10 scope of the cross-examination. I didn't ask him about this person.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it is directly within the bounds of the
12 cross-examination provided by the Prosecution. They're asking about our
13 bases for the references to intervention that Behija Zukic is related to.
14 And unless I can lead, I have to lay a foundation, so to lay a foundation
15 I have to ask the questions from A to Z. I have to proceed in the manner
16 that I'm the manner that I'm proceeding to get to the --
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very quickly I understand we must break now
18 because the tape is it running out. But let me just hear quickly,
19 Ms. Sartorio.
20 MS. SARTORIO: Well, Your Honour, this particular individual is
21 not in the 65 ter summary. I think that counsel is limited to the
22 question that I asked on cross; and, furthermore, he is continuing to
23 lead. So I object on both grounds that is beyond the scope of cross and
24 it's a leading question.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'll rule it on my return.
1 20 minutes.
2 --- Recess taken at 6.10 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 6.38 p.m.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Sartorio, my ruling is that the matter does
5 arise, and it is an appropriate for counsel to lay the foundation and
7 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: May I continue then. Are you finished -- may I
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I have also tried to -- I
12 tried to short-circuit my questioning on that matter.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. What did you tell me about whether you would be able to testify
3 as to what they knew, as to this incident involving Behija Zukic's
4 daughters. What did you tell me as to whether you would be able to
5 testify as to what they knew.
6 A. I don't understand the question.
10 A. Well, I can't really tell you what they knew. It's something
11 that only they know about. I didn't talk to them.
12 Q. Thank you, sir, and on behalf of the Defence of Milan Lukic -- I
13 guess we go into open session, Your Honours. I apologise.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Sir, on behalf of the Defence of Milan Lukic, I thank you for
19 coming here to testify.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
22 Q. Thank you, sir.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your testimony and you
24 may now leave.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Next witness.
4 MR. IVETIC: Next witness is MLD22, Your Honours.
5 MR. GROOME: While the witness is being called, if I might raise
6 a few matters perhaps make efficient use of the time.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the first matter I wish to bring to
9 your attention I must say I'm deeply troubled by this situation where the
10 witness -- we're provided a 65 ter summary, and then the witness does not
11 testify about what is in the summary but is -- testifies about something
12 entirely different.
13 Mr. Alarid has given an explanation to that, but just looking
14 over our records, the original 65 ter summary for this witness was
15 provided in November. It was a very terse one or two sentence summary.
16 We now hear that Mr. Ivetic met with the witness in December and
17 on the 5th of January is when we received a current 65 ter summary, which
18 is after Defence counsel have met with the person; and in it, what we've
19 been preparing our cross-examination according to, is an indication that
20 man testify as to the daughters of Behija Zukic and his knowledge of how
21 Milan Lukic saved their lives, and that he will also testify about
22 intimidation and actions of SIPA and Bosnian authorities. We're entitled
23 to be put on accurate notice of a witness, what a witness will testify
24 about. Given that this summary is provided after the Defence have spoken
25 to this witness, I must object to what has happened here today and I
1 would ask that if any other changes to 65 ter summaries that we be given
2 notice as soon as possible about that.
3 MR. IVETIC: This was in closed session, so if can he have a
4 redaction of everything that was said in private session.
5 MR. GROOME: Why does it need to be in closed session if nothing
6 that's in the 65 ter summary is anything that this man knows about.
7 MR. IVETIC: His testimony was in private session. It is my
8 understand when testimony is in private session discussions relating to
9 that testimony are in private session. Those are the Rules that I have
10 operated for under ten years here.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't hear that, Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: The discussion of the witness as to this incident
13 was in private session. It is my understanding that has been the course
14 of practice for over the ten years that I've been here that when
15 testimony is in closed session or private session it is not -- it is not
16 brought up in open session. It needs to be done in private session or
17 the same status session as the original testimony was.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not talking about any of the
19 testimony. This was Mr. Alarid, I believe, asked to go into private
20 session to give his explanation. I believe it is up to the Court to
21 decide what needs to properly be in private session. I will be guided by
22 the Court whether any of this needs be in private session. I believe it
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see the need for that to be in private
1 Yes, so the -- Mr. Alarid, was your response that you haven't
2 given notice.
3 MR. ALARID: Well, Your Honour, the real problem has been raised
4 ad nauseum I don't need to give another speech as to the limited
5 resources we have had in case and how we've tried to put this case
6 together. We're doing the best we can. We compiled these 65 ters before
7 we talked to many people based on lose understandings. I apologise --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Alarid. We need to move on.
9 [Microphone not activated]
10 MR. ALARID: Okay.
11 MR. GROOME: The other matter I want to bring to your attention
12 is more than a month ago on 20 January the Court ordered that the Defence
13 apply the Prosecution with, quote, complete details of all the remaining
14 witnesses, including their names, correctly spelled, their dates of
15 birth, and the father's names. While we have been given this information
16 with respect to the witness this is week, we have not been given this
17 information for the remainder of the witnesses. We are doing our best to
18 try not ask for the Court for any adjournment to do investigation by it's
19 imperative that the Prosecution have the information that it's entitled
21 I'm, therefore, asking the Court to order Defence counsel to
22 provide all of this information by the time we start our session
23 tomorrow. I think that's a very reasonable and overdue request.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I do so order.
25 Let the witness be brought in.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD22
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit and you may begin. Mr Ivetic.
8 MR IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
10 Q. Sir, as you know my name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of the
11 attorney for Milan Lukic. I will be dealing your examination today. I'm
12 going to have to refer to you by the pseudonym MLD22 and protect your
13 identity in accord with the protective measures that have been issued by
14 the Trial Chamber for you.
15 As soon as you get situated there I will ask the assistance of
16 the court usher to show you a pseudonym sheet that has been prepared
17 which should have your name and the pseudonym MLD22 on it.
18 Once the same makes its way to you, I would ask you to review it
19 and then verify that the information contained therein as to yourself is
20 true and accurate.
21 Can you verify that the information contained therein as to
22 yourself is true and accurate, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In that case I could -- I would ask that you sign the sheet.
25 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I would tender this document into
1 evidence as the next available exhibit number under seal for the
2 1D Defence.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D12 [sic], under seal, Your Honours.
5 MR. IVETIC: Is that accurate, 1D12?
6 THE REGISTRAR: 1D112, Your Honours. I apologise.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Q. Sir, for the record could you state your ethnicity, please?
9 A. I'm a Serb.
10 Q. And can you tell us if you have ever had the occasion to testify
11 before, in legal proceedings?
12 A. No, never. This is my first time before this Tribunal, or any
13 Tribunal, for that matter. My first testimony.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. And I know you had a difficult flight to get
15 here, so if at any time if you need to take a break, please let me know
16 and we will try to accommodate you.
17 Now, without revealing the exact location can you tell us where
18 it is that you live, what municipality?
19 A. Visegrad.
20 Q. Okay. And where did you live, in which municipality did you live
21 in 1992; again, without giving the precise address.
22 A. Visegrad.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would like to move into private
24 session to discuss the personal details of this witness.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
1 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, turning to the outbreak of hostilities in Visegrad in 1992,
13 were you mobilised at that time?
14 A. I was mobilised on or about the 19th of March, 1992, and was sent
15 to Bikavac, the restaurant there. The restaurant had sustained a great
16 deal of damage, and I used my technical expertise to get the place up and
17 running again, clear it up, to make sure the conditions were again
18 sanitary and safe for everyone. I was responsible for that.
19 Q. Could we back up and could you please confirm for us the date
20 when it was that you were mobilised and sent to the Bikavac restaurant?
21 A. The date was the 19th of March -- May. May, I'm sorry, the 19th
22 of May. My apologies, but time seems to have left a mark on my memory.
23 Q. By what structure were you mobilised?
24 A. Visegrad Territorial Defence.
25 Q. And when you say he were sent to Bikavac, what particular -- what
1 was the particular nature of that location? What was it called?
2 A. It's the Visegrad Bikavac hotel.
3 Q. And what purpose did that structure serve during the -- during
4 the war?
5 A. It housed the command and the forward section of the medical unit
6 defence preparations. What do I know? I only know that I was in charge
7 of sanitation there and just in case of something sordid going on, such
8 as war.
9 Q. Did you have occasion to be posted elsewhere in addition to the
10 command at Bikavac; and, if so, where were you posted?
11 A. I was seconded to the Guards Service. It was the building
12 security detail; for example, when men took off to go back home to get a
13 bath or something like that.
14 Q. Okay. And I understand with respect to that building, the
15 Bikavac command. But were you posted or assigned to go anywhere else as
16 part of your duties within the Territorial Defence, anywhere else, any
17 other geographical location?
18 A. My apologies. After Bikavac, I went to Zupa because a male nurse
19 had been killed there, so I went to stand in for the nurse who had been
20 killed there, in the village of Rujiste. Stevo Grujic was the name of
21 the male nurse who had been killed, so the unit dispatched me to go there
22 and stand in for him, replace him.
23 Q. Where precisely was your -- was the position of your units in
24 relation to the village of Rujiste in the Zupa valley?
25 A. The position was to the north-east of the village, near the road
1 that was just above the village of Rujiste. There was a privately owned
2 cottage that was there, and that's where we were billeted.
3 Q. In the course of the time that you spent in the village of
4 Rujiste, did you have occasion to meet Milan Lukic or his parents at any
5 point in time?
6 A. Well, Milan's parents were living down in the village. And every
7 time they went to Visegrad, they had to pass us on the way. And then for
8 a while, food was taken there, and they were getting food. That was a
9 problem, the food. I would see Milan whenever he came to see his parents
10 to make sure whether they needed anything, such as medicines if they were
11 ill, that sort of thing.
12 Q. And --
13 A. Any human being would go and see how their parents were doing so
14 it was only expected that he would as well.
15 Q. And if you could -- if you could clarify for us, where were the
16 enemy forces located in relation to Rujiste and the position of your
17 units in that region.
18 A. Our unit was securing the right river-bank of the Drina from
19 Krusevo on to [indiscernible], the nearest Serb villages. In fact, they
20 were just holding the line there, to make sure there were no clashes or
21 enemy provocations. What should I call that? Clashes.
22 Q. Did you know Milan Lukic prior to meeting him in Rujiste while he
23 was visiting his parents during the time-period that you were posted
24 there with your unit?
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Sir, do you have occasion to see Milan Lukic while in the town
9 centre during the war in 1992?
10 A. I saw him with some policemen, with the police commander, wearing
11 a police uniform.
12 Q. With respect to -- you say you saw him with the police commander.
13 Which police commander are you talking about?
14 A. I think the police commander in Visegrad was called Tomic.
15 Q. Do you recall prior to the outbreak of the war what position or
16 occupation this Tomic had?
17 A. He was a policeman in Visegrad, working with the police station
18 in Visegrad.
19 Q. What kind of uniforms did Milan Lukic and this police commander
20 Tomic have on the times that you saw them?
21 A. Milan Lukic and the police commander Tomic had blue uniforms.
22 The kind worn by the police at the time.
23 Q. Would the two of these individuals be alone or in the company of
24 others at the times that you saw them?
25 A. The commander always had at least two escorts. I'm a medical
1 help person myself. I don't know about the way this worked in their line
2 of work, but I would always see the commander with two escorts.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir. Your Honours, that's all I have for
5 direct examination of this witness.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Cole.
7 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honours, I'm to ask it if I could commence
8 my cross-examination tomorrow. I think it will be in the interest of
9 judicial economy in any event. Hopefully I can cut down what I have at
10 the moment. One of the problems has been, Your Honours, that I was to an
11 extend incommunicado with the first part of the session today because of
12 the technical difficulties. So I'm not aware of the testimony that
13 proceeded my entrance into the courtroom. So it would be helpful if
14 could I go through that. There may well be some things there that can I
15 incorporate into my cross-examination. So could I just ask that my
16 cross-examination commence tomorrow.
17 We're making good time.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very well. We'll adjourn until 2.15
19 tomorrow. And I'm to say that next week, the sitting will be Tuesday to
20 Friday. Tuesday to Friday.
21 Mr. Alarid.
22 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, I'm not sure what the impetus was
23 behind that decision only that we've already arranged for
24 Mr. Vladimir Rasic to come in Sunday, and we expected to get him out on
25 Monday, and because of his employment we were hoping to get him done on
1 Monday. Would there be any possibility of sort of flipping that and
2 making Friday off if that were the case, because -- I don't know if that
3 is feasible. Just consider it, Your Honour, and maybe we can discuss it
4 tomorrow, but that's just what I wanted to let you know.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks. We'll consider it.
6 Thanks. We're adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of
9 February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.