Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4897

 1                           Tuesday, 3 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.57 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  Good morning.

 7             Your Honour, last Wednesday on the 25th of February, I brought to

 8     the Chamber's attention the Milan Lukic Defence team's non-compliance

 9     with the Chamber's order of the 27th of January, 2009, to disclose the

10     identifying information of their witnesses.

11             I requested that the Chamber order them to fully comply before

12     the start of court on Thursday the 26th, and the Chamber ordered

13     precisely that at transcript page 4809.

14             The Defence did not comply with that order.  Further, our

15     correspondence since that order was issued seeking to remind them of the

16     order has gone ignored.  The Milan Lukic Defence has ignored our

17     correspondence, has ignored two direct and clear orders of the Court.  I

18     submit this is a very, very important matter.  I bear the burden of

19     establishing that these witnesses do not raise a reasonable doubt, a task

20     that is very difficult to discharge when I do not know with any certainty

21     who in fact they are.

22             I now ask the Court to direct the Milan Lukic Defence by the

23     start of the second session this morning to provide the Prosecution with

24     a list of all remaining witnesses with the biographical information

25     ordered by the Court.  If they fail to comply, I ask the Chamber not to

Page 4898

 1     allow them to call any additional witnesses until they have complied with

 2     the Chamber's previous orders.

 3             It undermines the integrity of this trial to proceed in the face

 4     of the Defence's utter disregard of its procedural obligations and its

 5     flagrant failure to abide by clear directives of the Chamber.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Now, this relates to what particular witnesses?

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we have not received the dates of

 8     birth, the father's name, the mother's name, the place of birth of many

 9     of the remaining Defence witnesses.  I need that information to do some

10     investigation, to make requests of governments with respect to whether

11     these people have any criminal convictions.  All of that takes some time,

12     and as I said last week, Your Honour, as yet I've not yet had to ask the

13     Chamber to defer cross-examination, but I fear the time is coming when I

14     will not have heard back or will not have the results of any of our

15     investigative efforts.  I will be asking the Chamber to postpone the

16     cross-examination until we can complete it.  This is information that we

17     should have had prior to the start of the Defence case.  We are now about

18     midway through the Defence case, and we still have not been provided this

19     information.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So what you want would be the dates of birth of

21     the witnesses, the father's name, the mother's name, the place of birth.

22             Mr. Alarid, why haven't you provided that?  It seems to me to be

23     a monumental task.

24             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, with some witnesses it has been,

25     and we have given the Prosecution all information within our control.

Page 4899

 1     Accordingly, people that we're not able to get confirmation on, these

 2     sort of tangential witnesses that were out there and possibility, we've

 3     not gotten, so -- our remedy would be not to call them because, of

 4     course, if we don't have the control or ability to get this simple

 5     information and kind of cooperation, then they probably wouldn't be a

 6     very good witness for this court.  So, grand scheme of things, that may

 7     affect the number of witnesses we ultimately present, but I cannot give

 8     what I do not have the ability to get through other means.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  So your basic response is that you have given

10     the Prosecution all that you have?

11             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, he has given you all that he has.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it seems to me -- I mean, they are

14     witnesses that the Defence intends to call.  I mean, they've interviewed

15     these people.  Why were these questions not asked of these people when

16     they were interviewed?  It's a basic obligation.  If Mr. Alarid is saying

17     now that he may decide not to call some of these witnesses, then I think

18     I'm also entitled to know that because I have people assigned to be --

19     that are presently working on the statements, on the witness list that's

20     been provided by the Defence.  Mr. Alarid knows now that he's not going

21     to call them.  Why waste our time with this?

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, have you decided that you will not

23     call these witnesses?

24             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I'm on the verge.  I mean, I can't

25     delay the Court.  I can't necessarily get things, especially from the

Page 4900

 1     distance of the Balkans.  That is a problem.  There are witnesses we had

 2     never interviewed.  That is Mr. Groome's point, but that's also been my

 3     point this entire time.  And along those lines, Your Honour, we did make

 4     a filing this morning, though, that I think gives the impetus of the

 5     Court -- of the information the Court wanted as to why the investigator

 6     of the OTP would further -- add further to the court proceedings, and

 7     we'll be asking for that, and namely we filed our notice of surviving

 8     victims that we have located and that we have found, and I've

 9     personally --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In respect of the witnesses that you have

11     interviewed --

12             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  -- have you provided that information?

14             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir yes, sir.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Because you really ought to have gotten that

16     information, and in respect --

17             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.  We've provided everyone that we intend to

18     call, Your Honour.  Yes, sir.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  In respect of the witnesses you have not yet

20     interviewed, I understand you to be saying that --

21             MR. ALARID:  Yeah, the only ones that we would not be able to

22     provide, and it's also based on our response, was the pending subpoenas.

23     You know, there's police officer that needs to come per a subpoena and so

24     forth.  We don't have the ability, really, to interview, nor would that

25     really be in the nature of what we would get in anticipation of trial.

Page 4901

1     So the subpoena is outstanding.  We wouldn't be able to get those, i.e.,

 2     Risto Perisic, Branimir Savovic.  To be honest, I mean, I guess we could

 3     do some research on Google to find that out, but that would be the extent

 4     of my ability to find that information.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, that may be what you have to do.

 6             MR. ALARID:  Okay.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, rather than leave it at this kind of

 8     vague, well, there are some witnesses that won't be called, could I ask

 9     then that the Chamber direct Mr. Alarid to inform us in written form what

10     witnesses have been previously noticed that he now knows he will not be

11     calling so that I can cease work that's being done in preparation for

12     those witnesses.  It seems like a basic courtesy, but if it requires a

13     court order, I would ask for it.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I'll do that.  Mr. Alarid, in respect of the

15     witnesses that you have previously noticed, inform the Prosecution which

16     of those witnesses you will not be calling.

17             MR. ALARID:  Yes, sir.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let us move to private session.

21            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

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Page 4902











11  Pages 4902-4903 redacted. Private session.















Page 4904

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23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This has been reviewed by my Chamber, and the

24     view is that the evidence is very sparse.  What I would do is when the

25     witness comes in, I will question the witness.

Page 4905

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I'd like to be heard, though --

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

 3             MS. SARTORIO:  -- before the witness comes in just because

 4     there's some major points that need to be made.

 5             First of all, on the face of the motion it's unclear what they

 6     are asking for.  In one paragraph, they are asking for name identity

 7     redaction only, but then at the end when they ask for the relief, they're

 8     asking for a face and voice distortion; so, number one, it's unclear.

 9     Two, this is grossly untimely.  This Court has ordered that the Defence

10     has to provide two weeks' notice if they're going to file motions for

11     protective measures, that we have an opportunity to investigate and

12     respond.  They have known about this witness since the very beginning.

13     He has been on his list since the beginning.  They filed an amended

14     65 ter summary in January, so presumably they had spoken with the witness

15     then in order to file an amended summary.  Moreover, this witness has

16     been here for probably close to a week, and they have never indicated in

17     any way, shape, or form that this witness wanted protective measures.

18     Now they come in on the eve of trial and ask for protective measures, and

19     I won't go into the real and objective standard that Your Honour has

20     articulated in previous decisions, but it's our position that they have

21     not met that burden.  For instance, they say that the witness is fearful,

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Page 4906

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 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It seems to me that his former membership must

 7     be a factor.  It would draw attention to himself.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, every witness who comes in here, Your

 9     Honour, has attention drawn to himself.

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14   (redacted)  And

15     furthermore, drawing attention to one's self, that's going to happen with

16     any witness who walks in here and testifies, whether he has had any type

17     of threats, any type of -- any reason to believe that drawing attention

18     to himself is going to cause any harm to himself or his family, and he

19     hasn't articulated that, (redacted) I'm

20     this, I'm that.  It doesn't -- he hasn't articulated it under the

21     standard that is required to get protective measures in this court. 

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25   (redacted)  All witnesses in these cases have a certain amount of fear and

Page 4907

 1     apprehension, but in order to be granted protective measures which

 2     prevents the public and other witnesses from hearing this person's

 3     testimony, there has to be a particular, articulable, measurable,

 4     objective fear, and we just don't have that here.  Again, they've raised

 5     the issue of the Bakira Hasecic.  This Court has already refused to

 6     acknowledge that that has any merit.  Her demonstrations or what-not have

 7     no merit to claim for protective measures.  So we would agree, and again,

 8     I wanted to put on the record the timeliness issue as well as our

 9     argument that where we agree that the evidence is very scant, and unless

10     the witness can articulate a specific fear, then we would request that

11     the protective measures be denied.

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21   (redacted) the protection of his colleagues and former colleagues.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let me hear from Mr. Alarid in response.

23             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, I mean, I think the initial

24     threat to the sanctity of the testimony is the horrible tabloidesque

25     media coverage that this case gets in Bosnia specifically.  And so we can

Page 4908

 1     anticipate that the information of this gentleman would be blasted across

 2     Bosnia the minute that this court session ends.  So that is a foregone

 3     conclusion.  (redacted)

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Page 4909

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, that's possible, but it hasn't been

 2     articulated by the Defence.  I mean, as of Friday when this witness was

 3     scheduled to testify, he needed no protective measures.  Now over the

 4     course of the weekend, I mean, I'm interested in learning what has

 5     happened over the weekend that has now caused him to have concern for his

 6     safety.  One of the things mentioned in both applications is that a

 7     Defence witness has been named -- a protected Defence witness has been

 8     named in the Bosnian press.  I think that's a very serious matter.  I

 9     would ask Mr. Alarid to please specify or provide for the Court and for

10     the Prosecution the actual newspaper article where a protected Defence

11     witness was -- the name was -- the identity was compromised and divulged.

12     That's somewhat not directly related to what we're talking about now, but

13     I do note that the Prosecution certainly takes it very serious that

14     anyone would violate a protective measure of the Chamber and would

15     support any effort to investigate the matter.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let us just deal with the application that

17     is before us.  I'm going to consult with my colleagues.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  On the basis of the submissions that

20     have been made, the Chamber will grant the witness's pseudonym, but not

21     face and voice distortion.  Let the witness be called.

22             Mr. Alarid, in respect of the order that I made earlier that you

23     are to provide the Prosecution with a list of the witnesses that you are

24     not calling, I will further order that that be done by the end of this

25     week.  That's Friday.

Page 4910

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Let the witness make the declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Thank you.

11                           WITNESS:  WITNESS MLD23

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

14             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, may we go into

15     private session for the pseudonym sheet.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

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Page 4911

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19        Q.   Now, before we get into the background information with regards

20     to this, when were you first contacted and by whom for the Milan Lukic

21     Defence in hopes of you testifying here in court today?

22        A.   It must have been in December, anyway, before new year, in

23     Visegrad.

24        Q.   And who did you meet with?

25        A.   With Danny.

Page 4912

 1        Q.   But with regards to the nature of your testimony, did we meet

 2     here in The Hague on a couple of occasions?

 3        A.   Yes, we did.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, could you please state for the record your ethnicity?

 5        A.   I'm a Serb.

 6        Q.   And without revealing the exact location of your address, could

 7     you tell us what municipality you live in?

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   And could you also tell us where you lived in 1992?

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Page 4913











11  Pages 4913-4914 redacted. Private session.















Page 4915

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15        Q.   Did you serve your compulsory military service with people of

16     other ethnicities and religions?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   How did you get along with other people of other ethnicities and

19     religions in the military?

20        A.   We got a long excellently.  I had a friend from Zagreb.  We were

21     inseparable.  (redacted)

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Page 4916

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MR. ALARID:

 7        Q.   Now, in 1992, where were you when the -- when you first remember

 8     hostilities beginning in and around Bosnia?

 9        A.   I was in my village of Gornja Dubova, and we took positions at

10     Panos to protect the Serbian villages, but that's when the war had begun

11     already.

12        Q.   Well, can you tell me, in 1992 were you mobilised into the forces

13     of Visegrad?

14        A.   Well, it was kind of -- we organised ourselves in the countryside

15     to protect ourselves.

16        Q.   How were you mobilised officially, can you tell us, and when were

17     you mobilised?

18        A.   Well, the late Tomic told me to come -- I don't know when it was.

19     The Uzice Corps -- corpus came, the Uzice Corps came, and then I was --

20     but I don't remember when the -- these summons was actually handed to me.

21        Q.   Well, you indicate that:  "The late Tomic told me to come ..."

22     How did -- tell me who this late Tomic is.

23        A.   The late Tomic was the commander of the SUP, the public security

24     station at Visegrad.

25        Q.   Can you state his full name, please?

Page 4917

 1        A.   Dragan Tomic.

 2        Q.   And how did he tell you to come?

 3        A.   Well, he had fled to Panos.  All the Serbs had left toward the

 4     border with Serbia, and I said that I was supposed to go to Uzice to

 5     work, but I wasn't sure what would happen, whether they would really hire

 6     me, and he said to me, Doesn't matter, you will always have work here,

 7     I'll give you a job.  When the Uzice Corps came, he went to town and

 8     invited me to come and see him, and that's when I joined the reserve

 9     police force.

10        Q.   And as you joined the reserve police force, tell me how that came

11     about.  What did they do to make it official?

12        A.   Well, he told me to be shaven and to turn up at 7.00 in the

13     morning, and that was that.  It was on the day when we met.  It was

14     around noon, and he said to me that I should come again at 7 a.m.

15        Q.   And when you returned, were you given a uniform?  Were you issued

16     any equipment?

17        A.   Yeah, we did get a uniform, but it wasn't much.  It was a very

18     greenish colour.  It was -- it had some stripes.

19        Q.   Were you immediately given a uniform?

20        A.   Yes, on that day.  Actually, on the following day when I

21     returned, I got my uniform around noon.

22        Q.   And could you explain for the court, please, the functioning and

23     structure of the reserve police in Visegrad at that time?

24        A.   It was organised like the army.  There were check-points.  We

25     would be at Brodar for ten days without relief, and we went wherever we

Page 4918

 1     were ordered to go.

 2        Q.   And what kind of instructions or training did Commander Tomic

 3     give you on how to do your job as a reserve police officer?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know.  There wasn't any kind of training, really.

 5     No training.  They send you to some place to be on watch, or we would

 6     spend seven days in a wood as recon or something like that.

 7        Q.   I might have asked you this already, but how old were you at this

 8     time in 1992?

 9        A.   Around 22.

10        Q.   And how did it make you feel at this time being in the reserve

11     police officer corps?  Did you feel that you could lose your life in this

12     role?

13        A.   Well, yes, of course I did.

14        Q.   And can you tell us what other kind of uniforms the reserve

15     misused during your time in that capacity?

16        A.   We also had camouflage uniforms, but they were not necessarily

17     all the same.

18        Q.   And why not?  Why weren't they all the same?

19        A.   Well, sometimes we would get 20 uniforms at a time, and then

20     there would be another batch, and they would not be exactly the same.

21     Most of them were camouflage uniforms, though.

22        Q.   Did any of the soldiers actually procure their own uniforms

23     because of the shortfalls that were official?

24        A.   Yes, they did.  Even I got a uniform from Serbia.  Toward the end

25     of the war, a friend sent me that uniform.

Page 4919

 1        Q.   Now, what kinds of badges or emblems were you issued upon being

 2     mobilised to the police of Visegrad?

 3        A.   I am not sure at what time that was.  There was a ribbon which

 4     read "milicija."

 5        Q.   And of these patches -- or was it a patch or an emblem?  You said

 6     ribbon, but that may be the translation.

 7        A.   It was -- it was sewed upon our uniform, and I took it to my

 8     sister-in-law to do that for me.

 9        Q.   Are you saying that it was your responsibility to sew on your own

10     patches and emblems?

11        A.   Yes, it was.

12        Q.   And ultimately how many uniforms did you have in all?

13        A.   I had several, four or five, maybe.  Not of that kind; they were

14     different.  But they were very similar, all of them.

15        Q.   And with regards to official emblems or patches, were there

16     always enough for everyone within the reserve police?

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  I think this calls for

18     speculation.  Whether this man was in charge of handing out patches, I

19     believe he should lay some type of foundation before asking this broad

20     question.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.  Lay a foundation.

22             MR. ALARID:  Yes.

23        Q.   MLD23, did you have an understanding as to the availability of

24     official patches?

25        A.   I don't quite understand the question.  The availability of

Page 4920

 1     patches?

 2        Q.   Were there enough patches to go around for all the reservists, as

 3     far as you know?

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  Again, this calls for

 5     speculation.

 6             MR. ALARID:  As far as he knows, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Wait a minute.  Do you know whether there were

 8     enough patches, Witness, for all the reservists?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably not.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's your answer?  That most probably not --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure there were not enough.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  All right.  Thanks.

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   Now, can you tell us again about the first uniforms that were

15     worn by the Visegrad police.  What colour were they?

16        A.   The first uniforms were camouflage uniforms.

17        Q.   Were there any blue uniforms issued to anybody?

18        A.   For sure, until they were able to procure camouflage uniform, but

19     those were more like firefighters' suits.  They weren't any good for --

20     but whoever already had a camouflage uniform was allowed to wear it.

21        Q.   What about any hats?  Were there any official hats at this time?

22        A.   Yeah, we got blue berets, but we only wore it for a short while

23     because when they got wet, they would shrink and you could no longer wear

24     them.  So we wore them only for a very short time.

25        Q.   And as a reserve police officer, were you required to go into

Page 4921

 1     combat situations?

 2        A.   Of course.

 3        Q.   And how were these blue hats -- how would they effect you being

 4     in combat?

 5        A.   No.  In no way.

 6        Q.   Now, would there be occasions where full-time legitimate members

 7     of the law enforcement of the police of Visegrad would have different

 8     uniforms from one another?

 9        A.   Could you repeat that.

10        Q.   Would it be uncommon for various members of the law enforcement

11     of the police of Visegrad to have different uniforms from one another?

12             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  This calls for

13     speculation.

14             MR. ALARID:

15        Q.   So far as you observed, sir?

16        A.   No, they did not wear different uniforms.  You mean as if we were

17     divided into groups so that one group would wear one kind of uniform and

18     another group a different kind of uniform?  I'm not quite clear what you

19     mean.

20        Q.   No, I mean just people using whatever uniform they had available.

21             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  This is a leading

22     question, and, again, it's very broad.  He can ask the witness what he

23     saw but not this kind of question.  It's speculation.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You do appear to be leading, Mr. Alarid.

25             MR. ALARID:  I'll try not to, Your Honour.

Page 4922

 1        Q.   Would there be occasion where people of the same group would

 2     simply wear different uniforms that they had available to them?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And when you were mobilised, what kind of weapon were you issued?

 5        A.   At first, an automatic rifle.  Sorry, semi-automatic rifle, the

 6     long one.

 7        Q.   Was there any point in time where you were issued a different

 8     one, a different rifle?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what was that?

11        A.   Automatic rifle with a folding stock.

12        Q.   Do you remember what kind of automatic rifle, the model or make?

13        A.   I've forgotten.  I used to know, but I've forgotten.

14        Q.   Now, you may have touched on this a little bit, but what kind of

15     specific duties made up your official duties as a reservist assigned to

16     the police in Visegrad in 1992?

17        A.   Well, sometimes I would stand guard for one stint outside the SUP

18     in Visegrad, or I would work at the check-point or anywhere they sent me,

19     or I was told to go and hand call-up papers to someone.

20        Q.   And would you consider this an ordinary day, or what would an

21     ordinary day be like in your service?

22        A.   Well, maybe fighting would cause casualties.  Somewhere somebody

23     would be killed.  We would be sent to pull them out or pick up the

24     bodies.  You never knew what duty you would be given.

25        Q.   Well, what kind of threats did you endure on a daily basis from

Page 4923

 1     what you considered the enemy forces at that time?

 2        A.   All kinds of threats.  The moment you got into the car and

 3     travelled on the road, you could die.  You could get killed.  You could

 4     step on a mine.  We moved everywhere, walked through the woods anywhere.

 5        Q.   And that was going to be my next question as to how you got

 6     around normally between your various assignments and duties?

 7        A.   Well, when you were given orders, you had to go wherever you were

 8     sent.  We would sometimes pass through a minefield and then discover it

 9     only on the way back.

10        Q.   And in terms -- you said that sometimes you would be in a car.

11     What kind of cars did you use as part of the reserve police?

12        A.   All kinds.

13        Q.   And did you have any official vehicles in the police force at

14     that time, official marked police units?

15        A.   Two cars, perhaps, maybe three service cars, but service cars

16     were later taken away and taken to Gorazde or Sarajevo - I don't know -

17     when the Muslims took over.

18        Q.   Explain that a little more.  What cars were taken away, and when?

19        A.   When they were withdrawing towards Gorazde, they took with them

20     those service cars, whatever they could get their hands on.  Late Vidoje

21     once went to Gorazde and retrieved one of these cars, and one was later

22     found somewhere outside a place called Moremiste.

23        Q.   We'll get to Vidoje in a second, but did you ever receive any

24     written instructions from the police station or police commanders about

25     what you were to do on a given day?

Page 4924

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   How did the commanders tell you what to do on a given day?

 3        A.   Well, we would be put on a list for a certain duty, depending on

 4     who the leader was.  If we were going into action, there would be one of

 5     us appointed as the leader.

 6        Q.   What was the worst assignment you had during the war?

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, where is this evidence taking us to?

 8             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, it's our position that Mr. Lukic

 9     was part of the reserve police force when initially mobilised.  This is

10     to give you a picture considering he is the only police officer that

11     we've brought as to give the Court a picture as to what the structure

12     was, the ordinary duties, as we've not presented any testimony prior to

13     this day.  He is the one witness we are bringing in.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio, are you challenging the fact that

15     Mr. Lukic was a part of the reserve police force?

16             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour, we are.

17             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You are?  You are challenging that?

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  All right.  Thanks.  Yes, go ahead.

20             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   I think I asked you, what was your worst assignment as a reserve

22     police officer during the war?

23             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But, Mr. Alarid, is this evidence helping to

24     establish that he was?

25             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, just from a foundation

Page 4925

 1     perspective, I think it gives the Court the vantage point of seeing that

 2     the duties of a reserve officer blurred with those of a regular foot

 3     soldier and back and forth again, and I think that's really what I'm

 4     trying to establish.  If that's -- if I've already made that point, Your

 5     Honour, I can move on.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             MR. ALARID:  Move on or made the point, or both?

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, I'm not answering the question whether you

 9     made a point.

10             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes, Your Honour, and I would object to Mr. Alarid

11     speaking on the record about what he believes his evidence is in front of

12     the witness especially.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  That's inevitable, Ms. Sartorio.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, I think it's suggesting answers to the

15     witness, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Proceed.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   Can you recall your worst day in the war in 1992?

19        A.   My worst day, perhaps, was when we were pulling out the dead,

20     those first two or three victims from Medjedja.

21        Q.   Tell the Court a little bit, and I know it may be difficult, but

22     tell the Court a little bit about those kind of duties.

23        A.   We had been for five or six days up there at Donja Lijeska.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I'm having some difficulty.  I

25     understand that you want to establish that Mr. Lukic was a member of the

Page 4926

 1     reserve force, and this witness, as I understand it, is to tell us

 2     something about the reserve force.

 3             MR. ALARID:  Yes, and --

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But what does all this have to do?  I mean, what

 5     is it -- now you are having him telling us about his worst day.  What's

 6     the importance of his worst day?

 7             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I don't know how the Court chooses to

 8     assess the credibility of a witness, but there comes a point in time

 9     where I think that the Court needs certain details about a man and what

10     he does in order to make that assessment.  If I've completed that, I can

11     move on.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't want to hear about his worst day.  Speak

13     to another matter.

14             MR. ALARID:

15        Q.   How did your duties as a reserve police officer compare had you

16     been a reserve soldier in the army or member of the Territorial Defence?

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  Calls for speculation.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  First, ask him if he knows about the duties of a

19     member of the Territorial Defence.

20             MR. ALARID:  Well, I could ask him this, Your Honour:

21        Q.   MLD23, were you ever mobilised into the regular army as opposed

22     to being a reserve police officer, or did you stay there the entire time?

23        A.   I was mobilised into the army.

24        Q.   And when were you mobilised into the army?

25        A.   1993.  Towards the end of 1993.

Page 4927

 1        Q.   And what were you mobilised into the army to do?

 2        A.   I drove a Praga vehicle.  I actually charged the weapon, although

 3     my military specialty is driver.

 4        Q.   And how did the duties of the reserve police compare to the

 5     duties of the army members that you were serving with?

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection.  Your Honour, I think that the question

 8     -- he could ask his duties but not just duties in general.  I don't

 9     believe that a proper foundation has been laid for such a broad

10     speculative question.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He has had experience in both.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  That's my point.  He can ask about his experience,

13     but he is asking about everyone's experience, and I don't think that

14     enough foundation has been laid if he wants to ask that question.

15             MR. ALARID:  I'm trying to get done here.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Just ask him about his experience.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   How did your experiences in the army compare with your

19     experiences and duties with the reserve police?

20        A.   A reserve policeman went to the battle-field just as soldiers.

21     We could spend ten days in a stint on an elevation or maybe a link-up

22     with one another if it was a longer front-line.  We differed in no way

23     from soldiers.  We had to go anywhere they sent us.  We couldn't refuse

24     orders.

25        Q.   Now, when you were mobilised by Commander Tomic, did you learn of

Page 4928

 1     other persons similarly recruited by him such as yourself?

 2        A.   I did.

 3        Q.   What kind of [microphone not activated] ... being mobilised by

 4     Commander Tomic in this manner?

 5        A.   He was looking for younger men, able-bodied, hard-working.

 6        Q.   A little bit earlier in the examination, you mentioned a Vidoje.

 7     Who is Vidoje, and what's his last name?

 8        A.   Vidoje Andric.

 9        Q.   And how do you know Vidoje Andric?

10        A.   He was our commander, our commanding officer.  He led us in

11     action.  He would take over from Tomic.  He would take orders, and he

12     would say 15 of us are going to some hill or elevation.  We would be

13     issued with weapons and ammunition.  We would appoint a team of scouts,

14     flanks.  We would decide on the formation, but he -- in any case, he was

15     the leader, not all the time but most of the time.  He was the second man

16     next to Tomic.

17        Q.   And how would you describe Vidoje?

18        A.   He was good man, a brave fighter, indomitable.  He had no fear.

19     He was quite able, capable of running into enemy lines, and he was a very

20     strong man.  He had no fear at all.

21        Q.   What was Vidoje's calling before the war started?

22        A.   I don't know.  I know he worked in the Varda company.  He was an

23     athlete.  He did Karate, had a black belt, but just before the war I

24     think he was out of work.  But I'm not sure about his training.

25        Q.   And do you know in what manner Vidoje was mobilised when the war

Page 4929

 1     started, and by whom?

 2        A.   I don't know.  He was mobilised before the war.

 3        Q.   And in addition to sometimes commanding your unit, what other

 4     kinds of duties did Vidoje Andric have within the Visegrad police?

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  Again, I don't believe he

 6     has laid a foundation how this man knows so much about another person.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  It's either he knows or he doesn't know.  Can

 8     you tell us what other duties Vidoje had in the Visegrad police?  Do you

 9     know?  We don't want to you speculate.  Speak from your knowledge.  Yes?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vidoje was Tomic's guard.  He

11     always accompanied Tomic.  He was even appointed as escort once to

12     Velibor Ostojic, but he refused.  He stayed where he was.

13             MR. ALARID:

14        Q.   And what other persons were also part of Tomic's guard?

15        A.   There was Vidoje Andric, then Mladen Andric, and Milan Lukic.

16        Q.   And you said that Vidoje had been recruited as the body-guard for

17     Velibor Ostojic.  How did you know that?

18        A.   He told me.  He said, I can't bear waiting for him in the car

19     when he is sitting somewhere.  I hate sitting outside in the car like a

20     dog.  It's no job for me.  That's what he told me.

21        Q.   And who was Velibor Ostojic at that time?

22        A.   Some sort of minister at Pale.  I don't know exactly what.

23        Q.   And with regards to Milan Lukic, what was his role in the police?

24        A.   His role in the police was to go out and hand out call-out

25     papers, whatever they told him to do.  He was in their entourage.  That

Page 4930

 1     day they were killed, they had spent the night all together in Okrugla.

 2     I know about that because I had left that evening and he stayed, and the

 3     next morning those men were killed.

 4        Q.   Well, let's back up a little bit, and you say they were killed.

 5     Who was killed and when?

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honour.  They are getting into

 7     non-noticed -- they're getting into alibi evidence at this point.

 8     There's nothing in the witness's 65 ter summary about what I believe this

 9     event they're going to get into.  There has never been any notice given

10     to us that he is going to testify about that incident.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

12             MR. ALARID:  Well, one, that's not true.  We're not having him

13     testify as to what I think Ms. Sartorio is implying, and if you'll let me

14     get a little bit more into it, that he was just about to answer, I think

15     you'll understand.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, let's hear the evidence first.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   You say they were killed.  Who was they?

19        A.   Dragan Tomic, Vidoje Andric, and Mladen Andric.

20        Q.   How were Tomic and Vidoje and Mladen killed, and when?

21        A.   On the 19th of July at Okrugla.  They were driving across a

22     bridge.  There had been some wounded up ahead of them where the army

23     lines were, and they were going to pull them out.  The road was blocked.

24     There was a log across the road, so they stopped, and there were two

25     mines laid one on top of another.  The car was blown up 500 metres in the

Page 4931

 1     air.  The man Vidoje remained lying in the back seat, and Tomic was still

 2     giving signs of life.  They took him to the hospital, but he could not

 3     survive.

 4             The tyre actually got stuck right in the place where the -- where

 5     the mine was, and the tyre kept running in place and if that hadn't

 6     happened, maybe they would have managed to simply slip by, but they got

 7     stuck instead.

 8        Q.   Now, you said a little bit earlier on direct exam that they were

 9     together the night before they died.  Who is "they," and explain that.

10        A.   There were a number of troops above the road in those houses, and

11     Milan Lukic was with them for sure.

12        Q.   And where were you that night?

13        A.   The night -- that night we were supposed to move and go around to

14     surround the enemy troops, and we went to an elevation called Granje.

15     There were seven or eight of us.  We stayed the night in a man's house,

16     and that morning the action started, there was no resistance.  We didn't

17     meet with any resistance, and in the mean time somebody gave us the

18     message that these men had been killed, and we gave up on the action.  We

19     went down to Dobra to the police check-point.  On the way, we saw the

20     car.  The people who are standing around told us who had happened.  We

21     were so sorry they had got killed.

22        Q.   Now, Dragan Tomic was the commander of the Visegrad police at

23     that time to July 19th.  Who was the commander after Tomic?

24        A.   I think for 15 days there was no commander.  We didn't have a

25     commander.  I don't know for how long, until the return of Milan

Page 4932

 1     Josipovic.

 2        Q.   And who was the chief of the Visegrad police in 1992?

 3        A.   Risto Perisic.

 4        Q.   And what was Dragan Tomic's occupation prior to the outbreak of

 5     the war, if you know?

 6        A.   He was commander of the Secretariat for Internal Affairs.

 7        Q.   And can you tell the Court about what type of automobiles were

 8     used with the Visegrad police in 1992?

 9        A.   All kinds of cars, some Muslim cars that had been abandoned, some

10     service cars belonging to companies, sometimes a truck, sometimes a

11     Mercedes or a van if there were more of us.  It didn't matter.  There

12     were all sorts of cars, Lada Nivas, off-road vehicles, civilian cars.

13        Q.   Can you explain to the Court why private civilian cars were used

14     and mobilised by the police?

15        A.   Because there had not been enough cars.  We had nothing to drive.

16     Many cars were taken away.

17        Q.   And you had told us a story about your own personal vehicle at

18     this time.  Can you repeat that to the Court, please?

19        A.   I can.  I used to have a Lada that my father had bought me.  I

20     had left it standing because I had no petrol, and I found it the next

21     time taken apart, all the wires broken.  I could not start it, and a man

22     eventually helped me start it, and later on when I went away for 10 to 15

23     days on stints --

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, please stop.  Mr. Alarid, I'm getting a

25     little impatient with all of this evidence which doesn't seem to me to be

Page 4933

 1     very relevant to the primary purpose for which this witness is here.  As

 2     I understand it, that purpose is to establish that the accused Milan

 3     Lukic was a member of the police reserve.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Well, and Your Honour, the only reason I digressed

 5     with that point was because to establish the -- or to refute the

 6     Prosecution's theory regarding the civilian vehicles that have been

 7     alleged to have been part of the crimes, and I was going to move on after

 8     that very question.

 9             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What are you moving on to, because, remember,

10     you have brought him here for a specific purpose.

11             MR. ALARID:  Well, Your Honour, you'll see.  I am moving right to

12     that.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MR. ALARID:

15        Q.   Do you recall what kinds of cars were the ones used by Commander

16     Dragan Tomic?

17        A.   He got the better cars.  I can't remember specifically.  We had

18     no more than two or three white and blue proper police cars.  The rest

19     had been taken away.  So we had to use Muslim cars that had been

20     requisitioned or company vehicles.

21        Q.   Now, with respect to Dragan Tomic, did you have occasion to see

22     him in the company of Vidoje Andric and Milan Lukic?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   And with regards to those occasions, when you saw these persons

25     together, how would they be dressed?

Page 4934

 1        A.   Combat fatigues.  In camouflage.

 2        Q.   And would you have occasion to see other persons in their

 3     company, and can you name any of those people?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember who else was there.  I on

 5     occasion was with them in their company.

 6        Q.   Well, with occasion -- this other third -- I'm trying not to lead

 7     you, so with regards to any third persons in this company, did you know

 8     whether they were members of any organisation or structure within

 9     Visegrad?

10        A.   No, they didn't belong to any other organisation.

11        Q.   Were they ever in the company of members of the police force?

12        A.   I did not understand this question.

13        Q.   Well, just in terms of who they associated with, did Tomic,

14     Andric, and Lukic associate with other members of the police force other

15     than yourself?

16        A.   Well, with us, who else would they socialise with?

17             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I believe it's time for the break.

18             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I think you are correct.  We'll take the

19     break for 20 minutes.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Alarid.

23             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, Your Honour.  With the Court's

24     assistance, we would like to call up 65 ter number 5 1D 21-0482.

25        Q.   Can you -- the copy is not of the best quality, but can you

Page 4935

 1     recognise what is on the screen in front of you with the pictures?

 2        A.   Fallen soldiers, soldiers fallen in the war.

 3        Q.   Do you have an understanding as to where this book is from and

 4     kept?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Now, looking at the first page of the book, do you recognise any

 7     soldiers, or, excuse me, police officers on this list as being killed?

 8     You may have to pan down.  Okay.  Go ahead.

 9        A.   I know Vidoje Andric.

10             MR. ALARID:  And with the Court's assistance, could we get a

11     marker to mark the page.

12        Q.   And, sir, if you could please circle the person you know as

13     Vidoje Andric.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And is there anyone else -- go ahead.

16        A.   I know Dusko Andric as well.

17        Q.   Will you please circle Dusko.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Anyone else from this -- what you are able to see on the screen

20     in front of you?  Who else?

21        A.   Do you mean who in the police or whether I knew anyone?  Should I

22     encircle all of those I knew?

23        Q.   You have a blue pen with you, and let's circle anyone that's in

24     the police in blue first.  And if we scroll down, do we lose the -- okay.

25        A.   I don't know anybody else, only those two.  I know some other

Page 4936

 1     people, but I'm not sure whether they were in police.  Maybe they were

 2     for ten days, but I can't remember exactly.

 3        Q.   Well, please put a VA for Vidoje Andric next to his photograph.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And if you could, please circle anyone else that you do know on

 6     this page and how you know them.

 7        A.   Mico Indzic [phoen] was the first victim.  He was killed at

 8     Glavica.  Then Dragan Filipovic, I know him as well.

 9        Q.   Now, with regards to Vidoje Andric, is his date of death and

10     information correct?

11        A.   It is.

12        Q.   And I apologise, I interrupted you.  You were circling other

13     names and telling the court of your knowledge of them.

14        A.   Well, I was in the action that aimed at retrieving their bodies.

15     Dusko Andric, he was a relative.  Then another Andric had been killed 40

16     days before.  I took part in both actions to retrieve the bodies.  I

17     spent a night at the -- during the second action.

18             MR. ALARID:  Now, could the court assistant please just scroll

19     down to see the photos, and save this, please.

20        Q.   And before we move on, right next to Vidoje Andric, who is that?

21        A.   To his right, you mean?

22        Q.   Yes, to the right.

23        A.   That would be Vlatko Trifkovic.  He -- killed at the beginning of

24     the war.  He was burnt in a car at a bend towards -- I heard they were

25     ambushed.  They were all killed.  Their bodies were burnt in the car, and

Page 4937

 1     some soldiers tried to put the fire out with bottles of water.

 2        Q.   Now, looking at the date --

 3        A.   Trifkovic.

 4        Q.   Now, looking at the date of death, is that your understanding of

 5     when that occurred?

 6        A.   I can't recall the date.

 7             MR. ALARID:  And could we, with the Court assistance, circle Mr.

 8     Trifkovic before we save and move on.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to circle him?

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   Yes, please.  One second.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             MR. ALARID:  And do we have to re-circle Vidoje Andric?  We saved

14     it?  Okay.  And could we save this page, as well, and move to the next

15     page, and we would introduce this page into evidence with both writings.

16             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honours, just for the record, this is a

17     document that Mr. Cole attempted to introduce in evidence last week, and

18     it was objected to by Mr. Alarid as there being no lack of foundation or

19     authenticity of the document.  So we'll note that for the record, and we

20     have no objection to its admittance if we are able to then call it up on

21     cross-examination and question the witness about other entries.

22             MR. ALARID:  And, of course, my objection on that day, Your

23     Honour, was lack of foundation through that witness had been improperly

24     established.  I would argue that we've established sufficient foundation

25     for him to identify the photographs and mark the exhibit, and we have no

Page 4938

 1     objection to calling it up.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the first version will become

 4     Exhibit 1D 115, and the second, 1D 116, Your Honours.

 5             MR. ALARID:

 6        Q.   And, sir, this is at the bottom of that page because we couldn't

 7     see it all as we zoomed on the document.  Do you recognise anyone at the

 8     bottom of this page before we move on?

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D 117.

18             MR. ALARID:

19        Q.   And this is the next page in the book, and with what you can see

20     on the screen, we'd ask you with that same pen to mark anyone that you

21     know and explain to the Court as you are marking how you know them and

22     were they in the police.

23        A.   Pero Kovacevic was not in the police, but he was killed at

24     Moremiste.

25        Q.   Okay, and anyone else?

Page 4939

 1        A.   Let me take a look at the others.  The photograph is not of high

 2     quality.  Miodrag Mucelja, I was there where he got killed between

 3     Pijevica and Drinsko.  We have the same birth year, and we knew each

 4     other from school, before the war, of course.

 5        Q.   Anyone else before we move on?

 6        A.   Let me take a look at the remaining four.  This one was killed at

 7     Moremiste, as well, by the name of Goran Radjen.  It's possible at the

 8     very outset, but I am not sure.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Is that all on this page so we can save and tender it into

10     evidence?

11        A.   I know Stevo Draskovic as well.  He was killed towards the end of

12     the war.  He was ambushed at Kaostice, as it's stated here.

13             MR. ALARID:  Okay.  Could we save, and after saving could we

14     tender this marking into evidence and pan down to the lower part of the

15     page.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 118, Your Honours.

17             MR. ALARID:

18        Q.   With these remaining six photographs, was there anyone that you

19     recognise, and were any of them in the police?

20        A.   I know this old man.  I think he was killed on the bridge.  Milan

21     Krsmanovic was his name.  Radomir Nikitovic, I think he was killed at

22     Moremiste, but it's stated here that he was killed at Visegrad on the

23     25th.  Maybe I'm mixing him with somebody of the same name, but the one

24     that I knew used to sport a mustache.

25             MR. ALARID:  Okay.  Thank you.  Could we tender this into

Page 4940

 1     evidence, and I'd ask the Court for a redaction.  Page 41, line 16.  The

 2     description tends to identify the witness.  Specifically states:  "He

 3     married my mother's sister, and I was at his funeral."

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             MR. ALARID:  And could we then tender this bottom into evidence,

 6     as well, and move to the next page.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 118, and I understand that

 9     Exhibits 1D 115 through 1D 118 have to be under seal.

10             MR. ALARID:

11        Q.   And moving on with these pictures on this page, can you identify

12     anyone else, and if so they are in the police, please let the Court know.

13        A.   Jovo Samardzic, he was in police at the very beginning.

14        Q.   Okay.  And who else?

15        A.   Mladen Andric was in police.  He got killed together with Vidoje

16     and Tomic.

17        Q.   Anybody else on this page?

18        A.   Allow me a minute to take a look.  Slavisa Knezevic, he was from

19     Kragujevac.  I know when he was killed, but I am not sure whether he was

20     registered with the police.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Could we -- anyone else before we move on?

22        A.   Radivoje Nikitovic.  He was killed at Moremiste.  He worked in

23     the military department before the war.  He had a rank, but I'm not sure

24     which rank he held.

25             MR. ALARID:  Could we save and tender this into evidence, Your

Page 4941

 1     Honour.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 119 under seal, Your Honours.

 4             MR. ALARID:  And could we pan down to the bottom of the page to

 5     examine the remaining photographs.

 6        Q.   And looking at the remaining six photographs on this page, do you

 7     recognise anyone else, and if so, please explain whether they were in the

 8     police or not.

 9        A.   This is Savic, but Mladen or Mladjo, I knew him.  He was killed

10     at Moremiste together with Dusko, but he wasn't a member of the police.

11             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.  Can we mark and tender this into

12     evidence.

13        Q.   Is there anyone else on this page before I move?

14        A.   I don't know.  Well, I know this Coric, but I didn't know him

15     well.

16             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.  We'd tender this into evidence and ask

17     that the next page be put on, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 120, Your Honours.

19             MR. ALARID:

20        Q.   And the same questions for this page, if you could locate anyone

21     that you know and tell us whether or not they were in the police.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4942

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   And before we move on, I'd like to emphasise number 55 at the

 9     upper left-hand corner.  Is that true that that says that -- and what's

10     his name again, number 55?  I apologise.

11        A.   Goran Zecevic.

12        Q.   And based on your understanding, he died in Kopito, June 20th,

13     1992; is that fair?

14        A.   That's -- well, I'm not sure when exactly he was killed, most

15     probably since they stated such a date, but I can't recall the date

16     exactly.  But I knew him.  I knew him well, really well.

17        Q.   And with regards to the location of Kopito, referring to the fact

18     that Trifkovic was killed on June 13th in Kopito, was that a hot area or

19     a place of heavy fighting, the Kopito region?

20        A.   Yes.  Fierce fighting, everything across the Drina was a

21     difficult area, up all the way to Sjemec and at Crvenka, people got

22     killed along that road, and we advanced as far as Sjemec, which is

23     Rogatica municipality, and he was -- he hailed from that area.

24        Q.   Before we move on, is there anyone else on this page that you

25     recognise, either 68, 69, or 70?

Page 4943

 1        A.   I don't recognise anybody else.

 2             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.  We'd tender this into evidence and move

 3     down to the bottom of the page.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 121, Your Honours.  Under seal, Your

 6     Honours.  I apologise.

 7             MR. ALARID:

 8        Q.   Please review the remaining six photographs and names on this

 9     page and tell me who you recognise and whether or not they were in the

10     police or not.

11        A.   Dragan Tomic.  He was in the police.

12        Q.   Please circle Dragan Tomic, and tell the Court for the record

13     what number he is as well.

14        A.   It's number 72.

15        Q.   And based on your personal knowledge, is the information on this

16     entry correct as to the date and time and place of death?

17        A.   I think so, certainly for Tomic.  Tomic and Andric were killed on

18     the same day.

19             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.  Could we tender this into evidence and

20     move to the next page, please.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 122, Your Honours, under seal.

23             MR. ALARID:

24        Q.   And please review this page, these 12 photographs, and mark any

25     ones that you recognise as well as indicate whether or not they were in

Page 4944

 1     the police.

 2        A.   I can't see the first one, and I can't read what it says.  I knew

 3     this one, but I can't remember everyone who was in the police because we

 4     may have been some 200 at the beginning, and then depending on their

 5     military training they would be sent elsewhere, so I don't -- such as to

 6     drive a tank or something.

 7        Q.   Well, and just to clarify that point, how long were you mobilised

 8     in the reserve police before you were re-assigned?

 9        A.   You mean before the war?  Before the war, I wasn't with the

10     police at all.

11        Q.   No, I meant after the war.

12        A.   I was in the reserve forces in 1992 and 1993, and later on I was

13     a soldier in the army.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Anyone else you recognise on this sheet and whether

15     or not they were in the police, please?

16        A.   Milan Simsic, my immediate neighbour from a village, but he

17     wasn't with the police.  I was in the village when he was killed.  I

18     don't remember the date.  It says here the 6th of August.  That's

19     certainly correct.

20             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.  Could we please mark and tender into

21     evidence and move down to the bottom of the page.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 123 under seal, Your Honours.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   Please review these last six photographs and tell us whether you

Page 4945

 1     know them, and were they in the police?

 2        A.   I knew this one, Stanimirovic, but I don't remember if he was in

 3     the police.  Of these people, I only know Stanimirovic.

 4             MR. ALARID:  Thank you.  We'd please mark and tender into

 5     evidence and move to the last page.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 124 under seal, Your Honours.

 8             MR. ALARID:

 9        Q.   Now, this is a little more difficult because there's no

10     photographs to assist you, but let's do the best we can with what we have

11     and see if you can recognise someone or some of the names on this final

12     list and whether or not you knew them to be part of the police, if you

13     can.

14        A.   Stanko Pecikoza -- oh, I shouldn't have.  No, I won't circle

15     that.  Stanko Pecikoza was the founder of the SDS party.  Should I circle

16     him?  Or the number?

17        Q.   Certainly.  And for the record, that's number 124.

18        A.   Tosic, Salvo Tosic, he worked at a gas station.  He got killed,

19     but I don't remember exactly when.

20        Q.   That's fine.  Anyone else before we tender this into evidence and

21     move on?

22        A.   Mile Vjeljovic, I believe he died.  When we went to Gorazde, I

23     believe that later on he died in Banja.

24        Q.   Was he a member of the police?

25        A.   I believe he was on the list of the SUP maybe, but I wasn't there

Page 4946

 1     when he was taken there, and he couldn't survive.  At the beginning, he

 2     was with the police, but I'm not sure that he was on their list.

 3        Q.   Anyone else that you might recognise?

 4        A.   Milenko Cosovic, he was also killed at Moremiste.

 5             MR. ALARID:  Thank you, and we would tender this final page of

 6     the book of dead into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 125 under seal, Your Honours.

 9             MR. ALARID:  And next, I would ask the Court's assistance in

10     calling up 1D 22-0537.

11        Q.   And after you've had a moment to take a look at the photograph,

12     do you recognise the people that are in this photograph?

13        A.   Yes, I know both of them.

14        Q.   And please describe for the record who the people are and also

15     indicate, because we are on a transcript, who is on the right and who is

16     on the left in the photograph.

17        A.   On the left is Vidoje Andric.  He has a bulletproof jacket; and

18     on the right, there's Milan Lukic.

19        Q.   And looking at their uniforms, is this consistent with the type

20     of uniforms that members of the reserve police would wear in Visegrad at

21     this time?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And can you make a comment on the patches that are present in the

24     photograph and on the uniform?

25        A.   I can't see them well, but I could have put any sort of patch on

Page 4947

 1     my uniform.  Whoever found -- whoever liked something could have put it

 2     on their uniform, anything at all.  The moment this was blown up, I think

 3     I saw that one of the patches said "milicija," but now I'm not sure,

 4     speaking about Vidoje.  It may have been sewn on his uniform.  At the

 5     time, the patches said "milicija."  He wore this bulletproof jacket all

 6     the time, and he had a black belt, and he always worked on his fitness.

 7     And the partisan company produced us some plates, up to a centimetre in

 8     strength, and he put them in his bulletproof jacket.  He always wore it.

 9     We even tried to shoot a 7.9-millimetre bullet at it, and it wouldn't --

10     it couldn't pierce the jacket.  It was bulletproof from the front and

11     from behind also.

12        Q.   And thank you.  Can you comment on the vehicle that they are

13     sitting on?

14        A.   I don't know.  I really can't say.  It must have been one of the

15     vehicles that were registered for the SUP.  Actually, it wasn't a real

16     registration.  It was just a sheet of paper.  The vehicle may have had

17     regular licence plates, but a document was issued stating that the

18     vehicle was being used by the SUP.  It -- this may be a Passat or a Lada.

19     Even Tomic later on drove the better cars, and we would get the worse

20     cars when we were sent to the field.

21             MR. ALARID:  Now, can we pan back on the photograph, please.

22        Q.   Just looking at the surroundings in the neighbourhood, can you

23     tell the Court whereabouts this photograph was taken?

24        A.   This is -- was taken when -- along the road when you go to --

25     from Nova Mahala toward the gas station, the Ina [phoen] gas station.

Page 4948

 1     That's the first entry to the right.  I'm not sure whose houses these

 2     exactly are, or, rather, I couldn't tell you for each individual house to

 3     who it belongs.  There was a warehouse there, a furniture warehouse.

 4        Q.   Now, is it true that the Visegrad police used these kind of

 5     uniforms at the time in 1992?

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  Objection, Your Honours.  It's a leading question,

 7     and I believe he's --

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, that's leading.

 9             MR. ALARID:

10        Q.   Is this -- are these uniforms consistent with the kinds that

11     would be worn at that time?

12        A.   Yes, they are.  I also had one just like this, maybe two.  Later

13     on, I would have as many as four or five because uniforms get dirty, so

14     you change because when you return from action, you are all dirty and

15     covered with mud and wet.

16        Q.   Can you comment on the type of weapons that they have in their

17     possession?

18        A.   These are automatic rifles.  I also had one like this.

19        Q.   And that's what I was going to ask you.  Are these the same or

20     similar that were normally issued to the police at this time?

21        A.   Yes.  Well, you couldn't move around without a rifle.

22        Q.   And just looking at the photograph, they have their arm -- or at

23     least Milan has his arms around Vidoje.  How would you characterise

24     Vidoje and Milan's relationship at this time in 1992?

25        A.   They were good friends.  They hung out together.  They would go

Page 4949

 1     to actions together.  They would provide a security for Tomic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And it's been alleged that --

 3        A.   He was the number two man right after Tomic.

 4        Q.   And there's been evidence led in this case surrounding the name

 5     of a group called the White Eagles.  Did you have any knowledge of this

 6     group known as the White Eagles?

 7        A.   Yes, I do have information.

 8        Q.   And what do you know about the White Eagles in Visegrad at this

 9     time in early 1992?

10        A.   Both Muslims and Serbs ran from them.  Nobody dared oppose them.

11     So it was better to get out of their way.  They even took the rifle off

12     my buddy.  He didn't dare oppose them.  They gave him a better rifle.

13     They took him one of these and gave him one with a wooden butt, and they

14     said, We need one of these with a folding stock, and gave him another.

15     He didn't dare say no because he was afraid of getting killed.  So it was

16     better to get out of their way so that you don't run into them.

17             MR. ALARID:  And, Your Honour, before I move too far afield, we'd

18     like to introduce the photograph into evidence.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, we have no objection, but we do want

20     to note for the record that this photograph was disclosed just -- very

21     late, was disclosed to us just recently.

22             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio.  We'll admit it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D 126, Your Honours.

24             MR. ALARID:

25        Q.   And I don't know if the transcription made it -- or that -- but

Page 4950

 1     my counsel -- co-counsel heard that you said they would kill one another,

 2     i.e., being the White Eagles.  What did you mean by that?

 3        A.   I don't know what they were like, whether they used to drink or

 4     take drugs, but nobody dared oppose them.

 5        Q.   Who was the leader?

 6        A.   They could even take your car and drive it away without you

 7     opposing them.  You couldn't oppose them; otherwise, you would get

 8     killed.

 9        Q.   And who was the reputed commander of these people known as the

10     White Eagles?

11        A.   There was talk of a guy called Charlie.  I don't know who that

12     was, probably an ex-officer of the JNA.

13        Q.   And where were these people known as the White Eagles housed in

14     Visegrad?

15        A.   For a while at Banja and at the Visegrad hotel.

16        Q.   And at any time during your being a member of the reserve police

17     force, did the White Eagles ever operate jointly with the Visegrad

18     police?

19        A.   No.

20             MR. ALARID:  May we go into private session, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

22            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4951

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        Q.   Now, when is it the first time that you actually got to know

 5     Milan Lukic on a better basis than just being an acquaintance?

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   And at any time later, did you get to know him better than that?

10        A.   Well, I did meet him.  I had -- used to have a drink in his cafe,

11     in his inn.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.  We lost the

13     answer.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Witness, please repeat what you just said.  The

15     interpreter didn't hear it.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the question was how I met

17     him.  I got to know him better later.  I was at his inn, and we would

18     meet on the street, (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4952

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   And can you tell the Court about Risto Perisic's role in Visegrad

 9     in 1992?

10        A.   Risto Perisic was a chief of the SUP.  He was the number one man,

11     and right below him there was Tomic.  He was number two.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4953











11  Pages 4953-4957 redacted. Private session.















Page 4958

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 4959

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 2             MS. SARTORIO:

 3        Q.   Now, sir, in your direct testimony, you mentioned that Vidoje

 4     Andric was mobilised before the war.  What did you mean by this?

 5        A.   It was not before the war.  How could it be before the war?

 6        Q.   That's why I'm asking you because at page 32, line 4, that's what

 7     you said.  So if you could clarify what you meant, that would be helpful.

 8     When was he mobilised?

 9        A.   The same time as I, maybe a few days before.  He left town

10     together with Dragan Tomic to Panos when the Uzice Corps arrived.

11        Q.   Now, when you refer to mobilisation, I guess I'm confused.  Is

12     one mobilised into the army, into the VRS and then assigned to the

13     police, or is one mobilised and seconded?  Can you please explain to us

14     what it means to be mobilised and then to end up being a member of the

15     reserve police?

16             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we would object only for clarification

17     purposes as the last two lines of the witness's answer were not placed

18     into the transcript.  I defer to my counsel as to -- but otherwise ask

19     the witness to repeat.

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You are saying that the last two lines -- the

21     last two lines of his answer?

22             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  The last two points

23     that he made in B/C/S are not reflected in the transcript.  I do not know

24     whether they were translated into English or not for the persons

25     listening on the English channel.  I'm on the live feed, so I listen to

Page 4960

 1     both English and --

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Okay.  Well, then, I'll just put the question to

 3     him.

 4             The question that was put to you was:

 5             "That's why I'm asking you because at page 32, line 4, that's

 6     what you said.  So if you could clarify what you meant, that would be

 7     helpful.  When was he mobilised?"

 8             What was your answer to that, please, Witness?  I'll tell you

 9     what is on the transcript.  It says:

10             "The same time as I, maybe a few days before.  He left town

11     together with Dragan Tomic to Panos when the Uzice Corps arrived."

12             Did you say anything after that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Panos.  He left from Panos.

14     He was in the rear closer to Serbia, and I was -- I was at my village.

15             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Thank you.  Now, would you just repeat your

16     question.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.  It's off the screen, but I will just repeat.

18        Q.   The next question, sir, which follows from the question about

19     mobilisation is I would like you to explain to us how one becomes

20     mobilised, if one is mobilised first into the army and then seconded to

21     the reserve police for certain operations, or I'd like you to explain to

22     us how one is mobilised and then becomes a member of the reserve police.

23        A.   What do I know?  I mean, they hand out call-up papers.  I did not

24     in fact get a call-up paper.  I was just hired by Dragan Tomic, and he

25     started assigning me to various tasks.  Some other people who were in the

Page 4961

 1     police with me, and we were many, did get call-up papers.  And then in

 2     the police, they formed some platoons - I don't know exactly how it

 3     worked - which was the 1st Company, which was the 2nd Company.  Some

 4     people had been trained to handle a Praga or a tank, but they had already

 5     been mobilised into the police, and we were really short of people.

 6     Everybody was running away to Serbia.  They wanted to keep them there,

 7     and they assigned them according to their military evidentiary specialty,

 8     you go to operate a tank, you go to man a mortar, because we need those

 9     trained people.  You couldn't put somebody to operate a mortar or a Praga

10     just like that without training.  That's how they went to various

11     assignments, and companies were set up.  I don't know how these people

12     who were up there in the authorities handled it.  I don't know the exact

13     number, but we were quite a few of us.  Then these companies were formed,

14     but many of our men ran away across the border, passing through all the

15     check-points.

16        Q.   So is it fair to say that the reserve police, the units of the

17     reserve police was part of the Army of the Republika Srpska at this time?

18        A.   Yes, they were.

19        Q.   Now, could one be a member of a regular military unit and then

20     also be a reserve police officer?

21        A.   No, that was not possible.

22        Q.   Could one be a reserve police officer and then -- for a certain

23     period of time and then be called up and be mobilised into a unit for a

24     particular military operation?  Was there flexibility between the units

25     in the police?

Page 4962

 1        A.   Possibly.

 2        Q.   Can you be a little bit more detailed?  What do you mean by

 3     "possibly"?  Can you tell us when that would happen?

 4        A.   Well, that happened with the police.  I mean, I have no clue how

 5     these companies were formed then.  At that point, much fewer people

 6     remained in the police.  Many of them went into the army.  I was not

 7     allowed to go without leave.  It's very difficult to explain to you how

 8     things worked in the war.  It was complicated.  Those who don't know from

 9     inside wouldn't believe it.

10        Q.   Well, in fact I'm one who doesn't -- I don't know from the

11     inside, and I don't believe that the Judges do either.  That's why I'm

12     asking you to try to explain it to us.  How did it work?

13        A.   Well, could you ask me a specific question?

14        Q.   My specific question was, someone could be recruited into the

15     reserve police force, such as yourself, and then at some point be

16     mobilised into a unit to participate in a particular operation with a

17     military unit.  That could happen, couldn't it?

18        A.   Well, how shall I explain this to you.  If he transferred to the

19     army, he couldn't return back to the police, but we all went together

20     into action:  the police, the army, there was no distinction.  The

21     artillery would be behind us.  We would be going in various groups, one

22     group from here, one group from another side to the same hill to the same

23     objective, and we were all attacking together.  The police was hand in

24     hand on the same level as the army, the same uniform, the same

25     everything.

Page 4963

 1        Q.   So during combat, during a combat operation or during some other

 2     type of operation, you would know who was a reserve police officer and

 3     who was in the military because, as you testified on direct, everyone

 4     wore whatever uniform they could find.  So is that -- do you agree with

 5     that?

 6        A.   All of them wear camouflage uniforms.  For awhile, I had a scouts

 7     uniform that I had gotten from Serbia.  It had a sort of net here for IC

 8     devices so they don't catch you.  I mean, I swapped uniforms with one

 9     man, and I was allowed to wear that uniform no problem.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But do you agree with what the counsel has put

11     to you, specifically that during a combat operation or some other type of

12     operation, you wouldn't know who was a reserve police officer and who was

13     in the military?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know.  I wouldn't know,

15     and you wouldn't be able to distinguish unless you happen to know the man

16     next to you, but in actions where the reserve police and the army worked

17     together, you wouldn't know just looking at the person whether they were

18     the army or the police.

19             MS. SARTORIO:

20        Q.   Now, can you tell us the difference.  We've been speaking about

21     reserve police officers.  Was there such a group of permanent police

22     officers in Visegrad?

23        A.   You mean those who had been in the reserve police even before the

24     war, from before the war?  Well, let me think.  Tomic, Niko Vujicic,

25     Sredoje Lukic, and Veljko Planicic, perhaps.  Then the policemen from

Page 4964

 1     Gorazde, the refugees joined in, but when exactly they arrived, I don't

 2     remember.

 3        Q.   So when you say those who had been in the reserve police even

 4     before the war, well, they wouldn't be called the reserve police, would

 5     they?  Wouldn't there just be a police department of Visegrad?

 6             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation.  The witness has

 7     testified as to his terms within, and he would be speculating as to

 8     things before the war other than his general knowledge.  As such, I would

 9     say asked and answered.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I don't agree.  He seems to have a basis for

11     providing the answer.  Please answer, Witness.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could the question be repeated.

13             MS. SARTORIO:

14        Q.   The question was, when you say those who had been in the reserve

15     police even before the war, they wouldn't be called the reserve police,

16     would they?  Wouldn't they just be the police department of Visegrad?

17        A.   No.  Even before the war, they were the reserve police.  I don't

18     know in what way they were activated back then, but they were reserve

19     policeman even before the war, but I was not among them.

20        Q.   Now, there were about six police administrations within the

21     Visegrad police department; is that correct?

22        A.   I don't know what kind of administrations you are talking about.

23     There was one administration.  The chief was Tomic.  I don't know

24     anything about six administrations.

25        Q.   So it's your testimony that all reserve police officers -- did

Page 4965

 1     you have just one building that you reported to?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. ALARID:  And Your Honour, we would ask for a clarification of

 4     the record.  Page 67, line 16, it's our position that he mentioned both

 5     Chief Tomic and also mentioned Perisic.  Thank you.  Excuse me, line 12,

 6     I'm sorry, being the question.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, just one quick point.  I don't know

 9     which is the proper transcript to look at, but on the centre monitors

10     it's line 12 of page 67, but on our private monitors it's line 16.  There

11     seems to be a discrepancy of a few lines.

12             MS. SARTORIO:  I'll move on.  It can be corrected after --

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, I would think so.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.

15        Q.   So can you tell us then approximately how many reserve police

16     officers there were in this administration in May and June of 1992?

17        A.   Quite a few.  I don't know the exact number.  There should be

18     some records, maybe up to 200, maybe more.  I don't know the exact

19     number.

20        Q.   And how do you know that there were 200 or maybe more if you

21     didn't -- if you haven't seen any list?  How did you know that?

22        A.   Well, I know roughly.  We couldn't all gather there at the same

23     time.  Some men were at Brodar, others were at other locations, but we

24     would run into each other.  We know from the talk and sometimes we would

25     sit together and talk and share stories, who had been where, because it's

Page 4966

 1     from this number of men that later companies and platoons were formed,

 2     and fewer of us remained on the reserve police force attached to the SUP.

 3     But even if -- sometimes there could be one single officer on duty

 4     remaining in the building because all of us would be raised for an

 5     incident to go out in the field and respond.

 6        Q.   When you say later companies and platoons were formed, when

 7     later?  When were these companies and platoons formed?

 8        A.   Sometime in May, beginning of May.  Now, who decided on these

 9     companies, they had on record everybody's military specialty, who had

10     gotten what kind of training in the army.  I was a driver.  If they had

11     needed a radar man, I could not have remained on the reserve police force

12     because I would be assigned to a radar, if we had had one.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14        A.   Because I had received training during my military service to

15     operate a radar mounted on a vehicle.

16        Q.   So when you said that "... later companies and platoons were

17     formed ... fewer of us remained on the reserve police force ..." then you

18     mentioned later when I asked you specifically when, you said that was

19     sometime in May.  So that's your testimony that some men in May, as early

20     as May were being assigned to platoons and other military units; is that

21     correct?

22             MR. ALARID:  And I would object as to I believe it misstates the

23     answer.

24             MS. SARTORIO:  I disagree.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  What do you say is the evidence, Mr. Alarid?

Page 4967

 1             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, I believe the problem is the vagueness

 2     in relation to -- this witness I believe was responding to when they

 3     first started being formed into platoons, and then Ms. Sartorio changed

 4     the point, and I think it's confusing the matter.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, I don't believe it's confusing, Your Honour.

 6     I asked a specific follow-up question from a specific answer he gave, and

 7     then he gave another answer.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ask the question again, and the witness will

 9     answer it.

10             MS. SARTORIO:

11        Q.   Sir, I asked you -- you said that there were fewer police

12     reserves because platoons and units were being formed.  Is that your

13     testimony?

14        A.   That's correct, yes.

15        Q.   And then I asked you, When were these platoons and units being

16     formed, and you said in May; is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct I think.

18        Q.   So as early as May, they were --

19        A.   I don't know which date in May, but I know it was then.

20        Q.   Okay.  So as early as May, there were some reserve police

21     officers that were being mobilised into military units; correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23             MS. SARTORIO:  Now, I'd like to ask you a little bit about --

24     first, a question about the exhibit, the photographs that you were shown

25     by the Defence, and I'd like to call up ERN 0213-2844, which -- it was

Page 4968

 1     marked for identification 246 last week.  And I'd like to go to page 4,

 2     if possible.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'd like you to look at --

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  If you could - yes - zoom in on number 59.

 5        Q.   Could you tell us what the name of this person is next to number

 6     59, what his name is and when he was born and from where and when he was

 7     killed?

 8        A.   You mean below or ...

 9        Q.   Number 59.  If you could just tell us what this says.

10        A.   It says Stefan Grujic, born in 1940, born in Koritnik, killed

11     28th of August, 1992, at Klasnik.

12        Q.   Sir, this photograph is the same as all the other photographs

13     that you testified to at length on direct examination; is this correct?

14        A.   You mean photographs or the list?  I did not understand the

15     question.

16        Q.   Sorry, that was my fault.  You looked at several photographs from

17     this document on direct examination; correct?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   And the other photographs that you looked at, all the information

20     with regard to those photographs was correct?

21        A.   They are supposed to be correct.  Nobody would indicate something

22     incorrect on a tombstone or on a memorial about the dates of killing.  I

23     don't know.  Maybe those who had been captured, maybe their date of death

24     is not known at all.  Who knows.

25        Q.   But you have no reason to question any of the information that is

Page 4969

 1     contained in this document because you testified to a lot of it on

 2     direct; correct?

 3        A.   You mean to challenge the veracity?  There was no need, I think.

 4     I suppose the information is correct.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, we ask that this page be marked as an

 6     exhibit, introduced in evidence.

 7             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:

 9        Q.   Now, sir, you -- sorry.

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio, I believe --

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document P 246 will become an exhibit.

12             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I think we have to break now.

13             MS. SARTORIO:  Okay.  Thank you.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, Ms. Sartorio.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Sir, I'd look to ask you a couple of questions about the incident

19     in Kopito where Mr. Trifkovic was killed.  Now, on direct examination you

20     said that soldiers tried to put the fire out with a bottle of water.  Do

21     you remember saying that?

22        A.   I wasn't there, but there was talk about that.  I heard it from

23     somebody who was there.  They had no mortal remains to bury, and I saw

24     that car, it was bent out completely and had stayed there for a long

25     time.

Page 4970

 1        Q.   Do you recall who told you that the soldiers tried to put the

 2     fire out with a bottle of water?

 3        A.   Ziga.  I can't remember his exact name.  I saw his name on the

 4     list.  He used to work in Sarajevo.  He goes by the family name of

 5     Markovic.

 6        Q.   And was he a part of any unit during this time, the time of the

 7     incident?

 8        A.   He was a reserve policeman.  Whether he was that at that time or

 9     in the military, I don't know.  He used to be in the reserve police force

10     but not -- I don't know until which point.  He had come in his car, and

11     what they tried to do was to put out the fire, but the people had been

12     killed and dead already.  He told me that we pulled some water bottles

13     from the cars and tried to put the fire out so that the bodies would no

14     longer burn.

15        Q.   Okay.  But when you said that he told you that soldiers tried to

16     put out the fire, can you tell us where those soldiers were from?

17        A.   Well, he hailed from there, from Kocarin, to the left of that

18     road.  Whether he came from one side or the other side, I don't know.  I

19     don't have any idea.  Most probably they pulled them out, those bodies.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, with regard to some vehicles that were used by

21     the reserve police, it's true, isn't it, that Commander Tomic, when he

22     was killed, he was with Mr. Andric.  They were in a white car; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   I don't know.  I can't recall the colour of the car.

25        Q.   Now, is it true that the police, reserve police force used to use

Page 4971

 1     cars or rent cars from a company called Granite; is this true?

 2        A.   I don't know which companies they took vehicles from.  It's

 3     possible.  From companies -- there were Muslim cars, as well, that we

 4     used.

 5        Q.   And that's my next question.  On direct examination at page 36,

 6     you said Muslim cars had been requisitioned.  Do you recall saying that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Why only Muslim cars?  Why not Serb cars?

 9        A.   There were Serb cars most probably.

10        Q.   But it's your testimony that it was mainly nice cars that were

11     requisitioned; is that true?

12             MR. ALARID:  Objection, misstates the evidence.  He made that

13     statement with regards to Tomic.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, just reformulate the question.

15             MS. SARTORIO:

16        Q.   Sir, was it your memory and your experience that the reserve

17     police officers when they requisitioned cars from Muslims or Serbs, that

18     they tended to requisition cars that were better cars, newer cars than

19     old clunkers?

20        A.   Well, they could have been older.  They were useful for us to go

21     uphill on the non-tarmacked roads, on dirt roads.  There were off-road

22     vehicle, Lada Niva.  There were older and younger cars.  We used very bad

23     roads.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you if you know a number of people, and if

25     you do know them, in what capacity did you know them?  Did you know a

Page 4972

 1     person by the name of Mijo Mitrosinovic?

 2        A.   I know him.

 3        Q.   And how do you know him, from where?

 4        A.   Well, he was in the intervention company.  After the war, we

 5     worked our companies were next-door -- our companies were next-door to

 6     each other.  I informally knew him during the war.

 7        Q.   And you said he was in the intervention company.  Can you please

 8     explain for us and the Chamber what you mean by intervention company?

 9        A.   Those who went into combat action to capture a summit,

10     irrespective of where they came from.

11        Q.   Would this be considered a type of special unit?

12        A.   No.  It wasn't special.  It wasn't special.  Well, we would go on

13     the same task.  We would -- they would come from a different part, or

14     they would be split into two groups together with us, and it depended on

15     our arrangements, who was going take which route to the desired goal.

16     But we were together.

17        Q.   Okay.  And the next person is Radomir, otherwise known as Raso,

18     Simic.  Do you know a person by that name?

19        A.   Simic, what was his first name?  Or was his first name, I'm not

20     sure, Raso or Ramo?

21        Q.   Raso or Radomir.  Simsic, excuse me.

22        A.   I used to know a Simic who got killed at Soline.  I'm not sure

23     whether it was the name of the place, Soline.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You are talking about Simsic?

25             MS. SARTORIO:  Yes.  My pronunciation is the problem here.  I'll

Page 4973

 1     repeat.  The last name is pronounced Simsic.  Simsic.

 2             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Simsic, you mean.  I don't know

 3     him.

 4             MS. SARTORIO:  Okay.  Did you know a person or do you know a

 5     person by the name of Dusko Vasiljevic?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Ljubisa Vasiljevic?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Jovan Lipovac?

10        A.   No.  Where is that Jovan from?

11        Q.   Well, if you know someone a person by the name of Jovan Lipovac,

12     you can tell us.

13        A.   I used to know somebody short, very short.  This is how I

14     remembered him.  But I didn't know him well.

15        Q.   And where did you know him from?

16        A.   I would notice him on the battle-field.  I don't know whether --

17     when I saw him last, but he is stuck in my memory.

18        Q.   But in your memory you saw him on the battle-field when you were

19     on the battle-field; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, do you know a person or did you know a person by the name of

22     Dobrosav Lipovac?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And the last person is Zoran Mitrosinovic?

25        A.   I know him.  He works in the same company as I.

Page 4974

 1        Q.   And how did you know him?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  I didn't know him when it all started, but I met him

 3     afterwards.  I never went into combat action with him.  Now I know him

 4     well.  We work at the same company.  We sit around drinking coffee

 5     together, but I don't know when I really met him.

 6        Q.   And since you know him now, do you know what he did during the

 7     war?

 8        A.   Well, he would go to the battle-fields just as any other

 9     combatant.

10        Q.   Do you know what unit or group he was a member of when he went

11     into battle?

12        A.   I think he was in that intervention unit.  I'm not sure how it

13     was labelled then, but it was the intervention company.  He would go into

14     combat action, that's for sure.

15        Q.   Now, I would like to ask you some questions about the White

16     Eagles that you testified to about on direct.  You mentioned that both

17     Muslims and Serbs ran from them.  Now, how is it that you knew about the

18     White Eagles?

19        A.   Well, one had to get out of their way.

20        Q.   And what kind of uniforms or what did they wear that made you

21     recognise them as White Eagles so that you could get out of their way?

22        A.   I don't know -- they wore camouflage fatigues, whatever they had.

23     One would wear a sajkaca cap, another would sport a beret.  They didn't

24     have uniform uniforms.

25        Q.   So they wore the same uniforms as other units that were engaged

Page 4975

 1     in combat; correct?

 2        A.   Similar.  Similar.

 3        Q.   Now, do you know if they had an insignia of a white eagle

 4     anywhere on their uniform?

 5        A.   I can't remember.  There were some insignia, but I'm not sure

 6     what kind of insignia they were.  On the -- wherever they were attached

 7     on their uniform, I can't recall really.

 8        Q.   Could you recall if there was any insignia on the cap that they

 9     were wearing or the, as you called it -- well, it's not in the

10     transcript, something on their head.  Was there an insignia on whatever

11     they wore on their head?

12        A.   They wore some, but I'm not sure what kind of insignia those

13     were.

14        Q.   Well, I guess then I'm a little confused about how you could get

15     out of their way if you're not able to tell us what there was about them

16     that you would notice in order to get out of their way.

17        A.   Well, we were more or less all acquainted with one another.  We

18     knew that they were in Visegrad.  They stood out.  People would say, If

19     they are in the hotel, don't get near them, get out of the way.

20        Q.   Did you know that Vinko Pandurevic was the commander of the White

21     Eagles?

22        A.   No, he wasn't.  I think he wasn't, but I'm not sure.  I don't

23     know.

24        Q.   Did you know --

25        A.   They --

Page 4976

 1        Q.   Go ahead and finish, please.

 2        A.   I can't remember what I was about to say.

 3        Q.   Did you know Vinko Pandurevic?

 4        A.   Slightly.

 5        Q.   In what capacity did you know him?  How did you know him?

 6        A.   I saw him once at Brodar while we were there.

 7        Q.   And when you saw him, what were you doing?  What was he doing?

 8        A.   We were there --

 9             MR. ALARID:  Objection, this goes beyond the scope of direct

10     examination.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, this is our case.  We are allowed to

12     put our case to the witness.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Answer the question.

14             MS. SARTORIO:

15        Q.   Do you remember my question, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I was at Brodar.  There, this was the furthest that we could

17     advance.  This was our battle line.  I was on a hilltop above the Drina

18     river.  We used to bivouac there and sleep there, and these were our

19     forward lines.

20        Q.   So when you saw Vinko Pandurevic, you were engaged in an

21     operation; is that correct?

22        A.   No, no, no.  We were manning this front-line.

23        Q.   Was he and his unit manning the front-line with you?

24        A.   No.  His unit was there, yes, some ten men.  I didn't know who

25     commanded them.  I saw them form a line and being addressed, but I didn't

Page 4977

 1     see who.  We never were mustered into lines.  I was just manning a

 2     hilltop above the Drina river.

 3        Q.   Now, did you know any of these some ten men?

 4        A.   I knew a person by the name of Karaklic.

 5        Q.   Was this person a member of the White Eagles?

 6        A.   No -- Beli Orlovi were not at Brodar, or White Eagles were not at

 7     Brodar at all.

 8        Q.   So what unit was Vinko Pandurevic a part of?

 9        A.   Well, he was the commander.

10        Q.   The commander of what unit, sir?

11             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation, asked and

12     answered.

13             JUDGE ROBINSON:  How does it call for -- both of you come from

14     the same jurisdiction, and you have this "asked and answered" thing.

15     What is the speculation here?  It seems to me -- was he a member of the

16     White Eagles.  Either he knows or he doesn't know.  If he doesn't know,

17     he says he doesn't know.

18             What is the answer?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't.

20             MS. SARTORIO:

21        Q.   My question, though, was you said:  "Well, he was the commander."

22     Was the commander of what, sir?

23        A.   Troops.  Those companies, I don't know how they establish them.

24     There were 10 people or 20 people to a platoon.  I don't know.  I don't

25     know whether Company 1 was deployed, Company 2.  I don't know how they

Page 4978

 1     categorised them.  I never saw any lists of those troops.  People were

 2     deployed as per orders that they were given.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us if you -- can you tell us if you remember the

 4     names of any members of this group, the White Eagles?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you remember seeing --

 7        A.   Maybe they sported nicknames, but I can't recall any of them.  I

 8     had never known their names.

 9        Q.   Did you ever see them carrying a banner?

10        A.   I can't recall.  Maybe, but I can't recall.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Could we please -- the court officer please bring

12     up Prosecution's Exhibit 229.

13        Q.   Sir, have you ever seen this banner before?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Had you ever seen this skull and cross-bone on any banner or any

16     clothing worn by any person in the reserve police or the military?

17        A.   No.  I don't know about the military, but not in the reserves

18     police.  Maybe somebody would sport a badge.  There were 10, 20 types of

19     different badges.  People would wear badges of all sorts, as far as their

20     fancy took them, but I can't recall seeing this one.

21        Q.   But as far as you are concerned, no one on the police wore a

22     skull and cross-bone on their uniform, did they?

23        A.   I can't recall that.

24        Q.   Now, do you recognise the caps or the hats that these gentleman

25     are wearing?

Page 4979

 1        A.   I recognise them, yes.

 2        Q.   And from where do you recognise them?

 3        A.   Well, the one is sajkaca.  Older people would wear such caps, the

 4     sajkaca cap in my village.  Elderly people sported that headgear.

 5        Q.   And is that the gentleman who is on the left as you look at the

 6     picture?

 7        A.   Yes, the sajkaca-wearing gentleman.

 8        Q.   When you say that older people would wear such cap in your

 9     village, is this person -- does this person look -- when you say the

10     older people in the village, are these people that were out in their

11     fields working, or where would you see these people?

12        A.   Both going into town or working in the field, maybe an older

13     sajkaca that would be worn if they were working around the household,

14     maybe a newer one would be worn to town, either dark green or blue.  In

15     recent years, they wouldn't wear them as frequently as in the olden days.

16     Even today, older people wear sajkacas in my village.

17        Q.   But sir, it's quite clear from this picture that this gentleman

18     isn't working around the house.  Would you agree with me?

19        A.   No, he is not working around the house.

20        Q.   And can you tell us what the banner says?

21        A.   With faith in God -- and then I can't make out the bottom, maybe

22     freedom.  The rest cannot be made out.  With faith in God, freedom or

23     death.  It could be freedom or death.  Something like that.

24        Q.   And did you know any group that used this saying as their motto?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 4980

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  This photograph may be put away.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, as a former reserve police officer, are you aware that

 3     between April and August of 1992 that the group the White Eagles were

 4     committing crimes in and around the municipality of Visegrad?

 5        A.   I don't know.  People used to say that they did, but I didn't see

 6     it with my own eyes, so I can't tell you anything about that.  The people

 7     talked that they did.

 8        Q.   Did people talk about any other groups committing crimes against

 9     Bosnian civilians during this time-period?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.  So just this one group, is that your testimony?  Or were

12     there other groups?

13        A.   That one group of White Eagles was there.

14        Q.   Now, sir, with regard to Milan Lukic being a member of the

15     reserve police force, are you aware that on the 27th of October of 1992,

16     Mr. Lukic told the Serbian authorities the following.  He says:

17             "I have been on the front in Visegrad and its surroundings since

18     10 April 1992.  I am a command commander of the group called the

19     Avengers, initially known as the Obrenovac Detachment.  The group has

20     between 20 and 50 men and is under the command of the Visegrad

21     Territorial Defence, and I'm directly subordinate to Vinko Pandurevic."

22             Did you know that Milan made this statement?

23             MR. ALARID:  And we would object to that in terms of hearsay,

24     lack of foundation.

25             JUDGE ROBINSON:  The objection on the ground of hearsay, as you

Page 4981

 1     know, doesn't hold water here, Mr. Alarid.

 2             Were you aware that Milan Lukic had made such a statement,

 3     Witness?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes, next question.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:

 7        Q.   Sir, if he had made this statement, could you be mistaken that he

 8     was a member of the reserve police forces?

 9        A.   What do you mean being mistaken to believe that he was in the

10     reserve police force?

11        Q.   Well, if he made the statement that he was what I just told you

12     he was, as part of the group The Avengers, if he said that and that's

13     true, then are you mistaken that he was part of the reserve police

14     forces?

15             MR. ALARID:  Your Honour, we would object in clarification of the

16     transcript.  The translation did not pick up his description of his --

17     Milan Lukic's association with Tomic and Andric.  That is not referenced

18     in the transcript.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I object to, again, coaching the

20     witness, whatever --

21             MR. ALARID:  We can play the tape.

22             MS. SARTORIO:  The tape will speak for itself later on.  You can

23     file your motions objecting to the transcript at another time.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

25             MS. SARTORIO:

Page 4982

 1        Q.   Sir, can you answer my question whether you might be mistaken

 2     that Milan Lukic was part of the reserve police forces?

 3        A.   No, I'm not mistaken.

 4        Q.   Sir --

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Ms. Sartorio, is membership of one group

 6     incompatible with the other?

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Is that a question for me?  I'll ask the witness

 8     that question, and I believe I covered that on direct.  Does Your Honour

 9     want me to ...

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  You don't have to follow it up.

11             MS. SARTORIO:  Okay.

12        Q.   Sir, did the police -- were they regularly assigned sniper rifles

13     with silencers?

14        A.   No.  But you could carry or bring a sniper rifle if you go into

15     action.  But why carry it about every day, because those rifles are

16     heavy.  But if you are a good marksmen, then you can bring a sniper

17     rifle.

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Could I ask the court officer to please bring up

19     photograph 0644-6594.  And if you could bring it up and then zoom in as

20     much as possible, please.

21        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the men in this photograph?

22        A.   I recognise the one on the right.

23        Q.   And who is that?

24        A.   Milan Lukic.

25        Q.   And you don't know the person on the left; is that correct?

Page 4983

 1        A.   I don't know him.

 2        Q.   So you didn't know this person to be a member of the reserve

 3     police force, did you?

 4             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation.  He answered the

 5     question.

 6             MS. SARTORIO:  I'll rephrase it, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Sir, you said you didn't know this person.  Had you ever seen

 8     this person in any meetings or activities with the reserve police forces?

 9        A.   I do not remember.  I may have, but I don't remember his looks.

10        Q.   Now, sir, the picture of Milan Lukic, is this how you remember

11     Milan Lukic looking in 1992?

12        A.   I have never seen him wearing this sort of cap.

13        Q.   Okay.  But other than the cap, his face, is that how you remember

14     him?

15        A.   It's been quite awhile.  I don't know.  It's been 17 years since

16     the beginning of the war.

17        Q.   Right.  But you recall him giving you a cigarette in May.  So all

18     I'm asking you is did this look like Milan when you knew him during the

19     war?

20        A.   But now I can't see what kind of uniform he is wearing in this

21     picture.  He seems to be -- have a beard.  I've never seen him with a

22     beard, and he is wearing obviously camouflage pants, but this is a

23     civilian jacket or something.

24        Q.   Okay.  But can you tell me what you think his approximate age is

25     in this photograph?

Page 4984

 1             MR. ALARID:  Objection, calls for speculation.

 2             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He can say --

 3             MR. ALARID:  Irrelevance.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  He can say what he thinks his approximate age

 5     is.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that he was born in 1967, so

 7     I don't have to guess.  I know when he was born.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:

 9        Q.   So does he look about 24, 25 in this photograph to you?

10        A.   Well, I don't know.

11        Q.   Okay.  Sir, now, is this the type of cap --

12        A.   This is a black and white photograph, so you can't really see him

13     all that well.

14        Q.   Now, is this the type of hat that was routinely worn by reserve

15     police officers?

16        A.   No.

17             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour, I ask that this be admitted into

18     evidence, please.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P 249, Your Honours.

21             MS. SARTORIO:  Now, I'd like the court officer, please, to bring

22     up 1D 98.

23             MR. CEPIC:  In the meantime, just for the record could we have

24     Exhibit number.  Sorry.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P 249.

Page 4985

 1             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.  My apologies for this -- [microphone not

 2     activated].

 3             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Nice to hear from you now and then, Mr. Cepic.

 4     You are like a forgotten man.

 5             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:

 8        Q.   Okay.  Could we just focus in on the top photo first, please.

 9     Sir, did you know a person by the name of Dragutin Dragicevic?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   How about a person by the name of Djordje Sevic did you know a

12     person by that name?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   As far as you recall, you never knew these men as part of the

15     reserve police officers, did you?

16        A.   I didn't.

17        Q.   Do you know any of the men in this photograph?

18        A.   I know Mijo.

19        Q.   And which one is Mijo?

20        A.   The one on the right.

21        Q.   The one with the -- looks like a type of a cap and he's got --

22     well, they all have beards, the one on the right as you look at the

23     photograph; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. SARTORIO:  Now may we look at the photograph on the bottom,

Page 4986

 1     please.

 2        Q.   Sir, can you tell us if you recognise anyone in this photograph,

 3     and if so, tell us whom you recognise.

 4        A.   I know Milan, Mijo, and Mitar, three of them.

 5        Q.   When you say Mijo, I need to ask you, do you know the last name

 6     of Mijo?

 7        A.   Mitrosinovic.  I'm not sure about his first name, but we all

 8     called him Mijo.  We knew him by the name of Mijo, Mitrosinovic.

 9        Q.   And could you describe for us, since we have a transcript here,

10     where Milan is either standing or kneeling down?  Can you tell us where

11     he is in this photograph?

12        A.   He is standing on the left.

13        Q.   Okay, on the far left he is standing.  Can you tell us who is

14     next to him?

15        A.   It's Mijo.

16        Q.   And as far as you are concerned, you don't know any of the other

17     men in this photograph; correct?

18             MR. ALARID:  Objection, misstates the evidence.  He indicated a

19     Mitar.

20             MS. SARTORIO:  Oh, sorry.

21        Q.   Could you tell us Mitar, the full name, please, and then describe

22     for the record where Mitar is.  What is Mitar's last name?

23        A.   I don't know his last name.  He is the one standing on the right.

24     That's Mitar.  His last name may be Mitrosinovic, but I'm not sure.

25             MS. SARTORIO:  I'd like to make it clear because it's going get

Page 4987

 1     confusing.  May we assist the witness in marking the photograph.

 2        Q.   Sir, could you please circle the head of Milan Lukic and put ML

 3     next to the circle?

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Okay.  And then, sir, could you circle the person that you knew

 6     as Mijo and put -- I believe you said his last name is Mitrosinovic, so

 7     put MM?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, could you also do the same for the person you

10     identified as Mitar, circle his head, please, and just write "Mitar" next

11     to him.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Now, sir, how did you know -- from where did you know this person

14     named Mitar?

15        A.   I knew him because he only had one eye, so -- it was a small

16     town, you know, so that everybody knew people with ... and his brother

17     got killed, so everybody knew these facts.

18        Q.   Was he a member of the reserve police force?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   And does this look like the same hat that we saw Milan wearing in

21     the previous photo when he is sitting on the couch?

22        A.   Yes, it looks that way.

23        Q.   Now, I'd like to admit this photograph in evidence, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P 250, Your Honours.

Page 4988

 1             MS. SARTORIO:

 2        Q.   Now, I want to ask you a few more questions about this

 3     photograph.  Do you see the person kneeling down in the middle.  He has

 4     -- is one of the three men kneeling.  He's in the middle, and he's the

 5     only one with a beard.  Do you see him?

 6        A.   I do.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Could we move up to the photograph at the top of

 8     the page.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, do you see this same person in this photograph?

10        A.   I'm not sure if this is him.

11        Q.   The person in the middle?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. SARTORIO:  Well, we'll go back down to the picture at the

14     bottom, please.

15        Q.   Sir, if I told you that the person who was kneeling in the middle

16     has been convicted of war crimes along with Milan Lukic in Belgrade court

17     in 2005, did you know that?

18             MR. ALARID:  Objection, relevance, calls for speculation.

19             JUDGE ROBINSON:  I can't see the objection to it.  But let me ask

20     Ms. Sartorio, how do you plan to get in evidence in relation to this that

21     would be relevant?

22             MS. SARTORIO:  I'm just asking if he knows that, and we will be

23     introducing the judgement if we haven't already.  It will be introduced

24     in our case.  I'll withdraw the question, Your Honour.  I'll withdraw the

25     question.

Page 4989

 1             So this document was marked, was it not?  Yes.  Okay.  We may

 2     remove this from the screen, and may the court officer please bring up

 3     P 230.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the person in this photograph?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And who is it?

 7        A.   Milan Lukic.

 8        Q.   Now, is Milan Lukic wearing a typical uniform worn by a reserve

 9     police officer?

10        A.   I may have had one just like that.  He is only in shirt sleeves,

11     but a jacket goes with this shirt.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   As far -- I mean, to the extent it can be seen here.

14             MS. SARTORIO:  May I have one moment, Your Honour, for a second

15     to consult with my colleague.

16             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MS. SARTORIO:  Okay.  This document may be removed from the

19     screen.

20        Q.   Now, sir, I'm going to ask you some questions now about some

21     other members of the reserve police force.  Now, I believe you mentioned

22     these persons on direct, but Dragan Tomic was a member of the police

23     reserve forces; correct?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   What was he a member of, then?

Page 4990

 1        A.   Well, he was the commander of the police station, and that's what

 2     he was before the war.  He can't be a reserve police officer if he is a

 3     police chief.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5        A.   He was on active police duty.  I believe that he graduated from

 6     some kind of school.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I stand corrected.

 8             And Vidoje Andric, was he a member of the reserve police or a

 9     member of the regular police?

10        A.   Vidoje Andric was a member of the reserve police.

11        Q.   And what about Risto Perisic?

12        A.   He was chief, but I don't know how that was all agreed.  He was a

13     teacher of Serbian, and later on he became chief.

14        Q.   And how about Boban Simsic, Simsic?  He was a member of the

15     reserve police force; correct?

16        A.   He was but not all the time.  Later on, he was transferred to --

17     I don't know which company.  At first he was at Prelovo, and then he went

18     elsewhere and got transferred to a company.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  May the court officer please bring up

20     Prosecution's Exhibit 209.

21        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what the title of this document is?

22        A.   You want me to read it all out?  Serbian Republic of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Trebinje Security Services

24     Centre, public security station Visegrad; the 1st of August, 1992; a list

25     of permanent staff and reserve forces of the police; payment of wages for

Page 4991

 1     June 1992 permanent staff.

 2        Q.   It says permanent and reserve staff, does it not?

 3        A.   Yes.  It says permanent -- it says permanent staff, but then at

 4     the second mention of permanent staff, there is no mention of reserve

 5     forces.  Up there, yes, but I'm now looking at the heading with item

 6     number 1, marked 1, but the overall title does mention reserve forces of

 7     the police.

 8             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you.  Your Honours, my understanding is this

 9     document was admitted under seal, so I'm not sure why, but -- we could

10     not publish the document to the public, but I think the questions can be

11     asked.

12        Q.   Sir, just to run through this quickly, you see number 1 on this

13     first list is Risto Perisic; correct?

14        A.   Yes, I can see him.

15        Q.   And do you see number 7 is Dragan Tomic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And number 13 is Sredoje Lukic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you know that Sredoje Lukic was a member of the police

20     reserves also?

21        A.   No, he was not in the reserve police.  I didn't know him at all.

22     When he was captured, everybody heard of him.  It was all over the

23     television by the hydro power-station, the dam.

24        Q.   Okay.  He was a member of the police prior to the war, wasn't he?

25        A.   I didn't know him then, but I believe he was.

Page 4992

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  Could we go to the second page, please.

 2        Q.   Now, what does it say at the top of the second page?

 3        A.   "Reserve police force."  Or you mean the second page?

 4        Q.   Yeah, you just said what I asked you, at the top of the page.

 5             MS. SARTORIO:  Could you move over so the witness can see the

 6     numbers, please?  Would it be possible?  Well, we can't see it on the

 7     screen either.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  This will be the last question, Ms. Sartorio.

 9             MS. SARTORIO:  Okay.  Just --

10        Q.   Sir, do you see number 2 is Vidoje Andric?

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   And number 35 is Boban Simsic; correct?

15        A.   Yes, it says Boban Simsic.

16        Q.   Sir, you don't see the name Milan Lukic anywhere on this document

17     that is about payment of wages for June 1992, permanent and reserve

18     police forces, do you?

19        A.   I don't know why he isn't on the list.  Who knows when the list

20     was made.  If this were the original list, he certainly would have been

21     on the list, if the list had been made at that time.

22        Q.   Well, sir, you see the first page of the list it says 1st of

23     August, 1992, does it not?

24             MR. ALARID:  Objection, lack of foundation, lack of personal

25     knowledge.

Page 4993

 1             MS. SARTORIO:  He could look at the first page of the document.

 2             MR. ALARID:  But he can't establish authenticity of it because he

 3     never generated it nor did he ever see it.

 4             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Alarid, I don't understand these objections.

 5     Just a minute, please.  Just a minute.  I don't understand the

 6     objections.  The first page show the first page, and you are saying the

 7     witness can't comment on it because the authenticity can't be

 8     established.  Is that your point?

 9             MR. ALARID:  Well, yes, Your Honour -- well, no --

10             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Well, Wouldn't that be apply to all the other

11     questions that have been asked about it?

12             MR. ALARID:  Exactly, Your Honour.  The issue is this, is he has

13     answered the question, he has given his answer as to his speculation with

14     regards to it, and the Prosecution is putting to him something that then

15     now demands the authenticity of the document.  His understanding is one

16     thing, but confirming the document as to when it was generated or

17     otherwise is a different thing.  It's then offering the document for the

18     truth of the matter asserted.

19             MS. SARTORIO:  Your Honour --

20             JUDGE ROBINSON:  But he is not being asked to authenticate the

21     document.  What was your question, Ms. Sartorio?

22             MS. SARTORIO:

23        Q.   Well, the question was, sir, I'd asked you about various people

24     whom you said were part of the police or the police reserves, and those

25     six names including your own are on this list; correct?

Page 4994

 1        A.   Yes, my name is on the list.

 2        Q.   And Mr. Simsic's name is on the list; Mr. Andric's name is on the

 3     list; Mr. Tomic's name is on the list; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE ROBINSON:  And Milan Lukic's name is not on it, and it is

 6     for the Trial Chamber now to deduce what we wish from that.

 7             MS. SARTORIO:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ROBINSON:  We will adjourn and resume tomorrow.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, there's just an urgent matter if I

10     could bring to the Chamber's attention.

11             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Very quickly.

12             MR. GROOME:  Very quickly.  I need to go into private session,

13     Your Honour, to raise it.

14             JUDGE ROBINSON:  Yes.  Okay.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4995

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

10                           March, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.