1 Wednesday, 4 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wanted to raise a couple of matters before
6 hearing the witness.
7 One has to do with the motion filed by the accused, entitled the
8 verification of alleged victim survivals. We have already issued one
9 order for an expedite the response from the Prosecution, I think, by
10 tomorrow. But even before that, the Chamber is of the view that without
11 prejudice to its final determination of the merits of the motion, we
12 would want to hear, Mr. Alarid, next week, and to have as witnesses --
13 tell me if this needs to be in private session, Mr. Groome. You're an
14 expert in these matters.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I was -- the Court gave me till this
16 afternoon to make submissions whether it should be private. And I was
17 going to suggest that the litigation be private but the decision be
18 public for reasons that can spell out before or after Your Honour talks
19 about these matters now.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we can be in public session.
21 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, if Your Honour allow me, I will
22 tell you what we have done so far, why I think it's appropriate that it
23 be handled in private session. But I'm happy to do that afterwards. I
24 was going to suggest that the Chamber that the litigation, the arguments,
25 and the submissions be confidential but that the Chamber's decision be
1 public. I can spell out the reasons if the Chamber wishes.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is it part of the decision that I'm giving
3 which I want to give before hearing from you.
4 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour, I will just briefly say that
5 there is lot of information in the filing that I'm not sure if the
6 Chamber is going to discuss now.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I'm not discussing the thing.
8 MR. GROOME: Okay.
11 Mr. Alarid.
12 MR. ALARID: I don't know how to do that. And the reason being
13 is this, is I went to this women and knocked on her door and I know
14 exactly where she lives. We entertained the issue, but I did not ambush
15 with her that the full ramifications of, I think, that the revelation of
16 her being alive and her children being alive and her father-in-law having
17 been alive create. I did not forewarn her of the possibility of being
18 drug to court on short order, possibly by subpoena, possibly by --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wasn't thinking of subpoenaing her. I just
20 want to you have her as a witness. Because, in any event I would imagine
21 that would you call them as witnesses to --
22 MR. ALARID: Yes, and I just don't -- I think is insensitive. I
23 felt for them in -- in the way I sort of ambushed them just but knocking
24 on the their. And you know that was --who is this man? And so I'm just
25 sensitive to them. And that's why -- I'd like some advice from the
1 Court, maybe even the other side in terms of -- or Victims Witness
2 Section as well for how to treat this with the utmost delicacy given the
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Our instruction to you would be to get
5 them witnesses here at the earliest opportunity next week. Because in
6 the Chamber's view it would help us in looking at the other matters that
7 are raised in the -- in the motion. And any help that you need, I would
8 instruct the Victims and Witness Unit, through the Registrar, to provide
9 that assistance.
10 MR. ALARID: We would prefer to treat them as intermediaries as
11 well and that, so I appreciate that. Sometimes you don't know where you
12 can turn on those kinds of issues. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you must leave no stone unturned. And let
14 us know by Friday how you're getting on with that.
15 MR. ALARID: And just maybe in light of that, Your Honour, I sent
16 out an e-mail to my experts saying that I'd love to schedule them through
17 the end of the month, and I don't -- I know some of them are objected to.
18 We haven't had time to file responses to those objections, but I would
19 think in a Tribunal scenario the qualifications of the experts tend to
20 fall inside the judge's purview of examining them and the relevance --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, I thought we had issued an order
22 on that. Let me just check.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have issued an order than, which should be
25 out later today, and we have granted the application for them to -- to
1 testify. But, of course, the actual admission of their -- of the
2 statements would be done during the hearing.
3 MR. ALARID: I would expect the Prosecution to have fair
4 opportunity to voir dire the witnesses as to qualifications and
5 foundation with regard to their opinions. So thank you, Your Honour.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just, Ms. Sartorio, you should be near the end
8 of your cross-examination.
9 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, Your Honour. Approximately five minutes
10 maybe thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness being brought in.
6 Your Honour, I do want to address the Chamber. The Chamber gave
7 me till the prior -- to the start of the evidence to address it on the
8 whether these filings should be public or confidential. As I said
9 yesterday one of the people who as listed as a newly found survivor --
10 sorry, Your Honour, can I ask that we go into private session before I
11 comprise --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 5001-5002 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
24 MS. SARTORIO:
25 Q. Did you give any type of written statement to Danny or to anyone
2 A. No, I did not, never.
3 Q. Were you ever shown any documentation with regard to what you
4 would be testifying about?
5 A. No, there was no documentation in Visegrad.
6 Q. And how many times have you met with persons from the Defence
7 before coming here to testify -- before coming to The Hague to testify?
8 Just that one time?
9 A. Back there, in Visegrad, only once. And once or twice we met
11 Q. After you arrived, right? This time, when I came here to
12 testify, that's when you met with him. It wasn't on another occasion
13 that you met with them in The Hague. Correct?
14 A. No, no, I did not. Here in The Hague at the hotel, yes, I met up
15 with him once.
16 Q. Now did you know there was an indictment out against Milan Lukic?
17 A. Yes, I did. It was on TV, back where I live. They showed his
18 arrest on television. They showed these things where I live on the main
19 prime time news bulletin.
20 Q. Did you know that the allegations were that he was a member of
21 the White Eagles paramilitary group?
22 A. I did not know that.
23 Q. What did you know, if you recall, what the allegations were?
24 A. The news item was about his arrest in Argentina. That's what
25 they broadcast on the news. It was very short. Everybody could see it.
1 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I have to ask you have you ever been convicted
2 of a crime?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You weren't convicted for inflicting bodily injury on another
5 person for which you paid a fine?
6 MR. ALARID: And I would object as to relevance, Your Honour.
7 Only crimes of -- [overlapping speakers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Overlapping speakers]
9 MR. ALARID: -- convictions of felonies and crimes involving
10 dishonesty are admissible.
11 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, that is in the United States, not
12 here at the Tribunal.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue.
14 MS. SARTORIO:
15 Q. Sir, have you ever been convicted for inflicting bodily injury on
16 another person, for which you paid a fine?
17 A. Yes, I did pay a fine.
18 Q. Okay. But when I just -- when I asked a minute ago about whether
19 you had any convictions, you didn't believe this was a conviction? I am
20 just curious as to why you said no.
21 A. I thought you meant whether I had ever been in custody or in
22 prison, which I haven't.
23 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honours, I would like to admit the judgement
24 and this conviction in evidence if I may.
25 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, we would object and object
1 specifically because there is a difference in the Serbian language
2 between crime and misdemeanour.
3 MS. SARTORIO: Their Honours can read the judgement in English,
4 and --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I don't think it makes any deference now.
6 MS. SARTORIO: It's Document 06464891.
7 MR. ALARID: And, Your Honour, it would make a difference as to
8 how it was translated to the witness.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, how was it translated?
10 MR. ALARID: That becomes a question to the witness as to his
11 understanding, Your Honour. I don't want to influence.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: What did you ask him, Ms. Sartorio?
13 MS. SARTORIO: I'm is it not sure --
14 MR. ALARID: Have you ever been convicted of a crime.
15 MS. SARTORIO: Okay.
16 Q. Let's bring it up on the screen. Maybe that is the best way to
18 MS. SARTORIO: 06464891, please. If you could go to the second
19 page, which ... please. So that both parties can read.
20 Q. Sir, in looking at the English translation of this judgement it
21 appears that you were charged with violating a code of an article of the
22 Republika Srpska Criminal Code. Do you agree with that?
23 A. That I violated it? It's all different where we are, these
24 trials and everything. If you have connections, it is all a different
25 matter. There was the sister of that person and -- I mean, want to go to
1 trial. I didn't want to pay for a lawyer, but if I had taken a lawyer I
2 would have gotten off.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Never mind that. Never mind that. Just answer
4 the question, and let us move on. I think too much time is being spent
5 on this.
6 MS. SARTORIO: Yes, I agree, Your Honour, I would just like to
7 admit in evidence, and it will speak for it anti-inflammatory and Defence
8 can argue what it wants. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P251 under seal, Your Honours.
11 MS. SARTORIO:
12 Q. Sir, have you ever been to the village of Mala Gostilja? And I
13 may be pronouncing it wrong. Mala Gostilja never?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Never?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know anyone --
18 A. I did pass through before the war. I don't know what you mean
19 when you ask this question. You mean during the war?
20 Q. Yes, during the war.
21 A. No. No. Not once.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... know anyone by the name of
23 Miljo [phoen] Joksimovic?
24 A. You mean Mile Joksimovic.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. If that's the taxi driver I know, he lives in Visegrad. He
2 doesn't hail from Gostilja; he never lived in Gostilja. He lives in
3 town. Before the war he was a taxi driver, and then they caught him. I
4 don't know that he ever lived in Gostilja because I went to school in
5 Gostilja for four years.
6 Q. I'm not asking you whether he lived in Gostilja. First I asked
7 you whether you had been there, and now you're telling -- first you said
8 you passed through before the war, and now you're telling us that you
9 went to school there. So you have spent some time that village.
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 Q. Excuse me?
13 A. Mala Gostilja is a bit further away, and the school is on the
14 other end, closer to Donja Dubovo. I went to school for that four years
15 without ever actually going to Mala Gostilja. It was the first four
16 years of elementary school, and there was a shop newly opened at the very
17 entrance to the village of Mala Gostilja. I don't know how far it
19 Q. Okay. Now put that village aside. Now I'm asking you -- I'm
20 going to ask you if you know some people. And the first person was
21 Mile Joksimovic, and you said he was a taxi driver until they caught him.
22 What did you mean until they caught him? Caught him what?
23 A. No, I did not say that.
24 MR. ALARID: I would object to that line of questioning, as being
25 outside the scope of direct examination. Otherwise what is the
2 MS. SARTORIO: Your Honour, it goes to the credibility of the
3 witness. If you would answer my questions, we can get to the end of it.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please answer, and let's move on quickly.
5 MS. SARTORIO:
6 Q. The transcript said that you caught him. Is that not what you
7 said? Somebody -- that they caught him. Is that what you said or not?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This must be an
9 interpreter's mistake, because that's what the witness seemed to have
10 said. He now says I never said that; I don't know who caught him. Maybe
11 you're talking about a different Mile Joksimovic.
12 MS. SARTORIO:
13 Q. Is he still a taxi driver?
14 A. He used to drive a bus after the war and in Banja, I don't know
15 if he is retired or not. He has a very peculiar house, with some horns
16 on it, and everybody knows that house.
17 Q. Do you know anyone by the name of Nedjo Joksimovic?
18 A. I know Nedjo.
19 Q. And how well do you know Nedjo?
20 A. He used to work with my late father, in the forestry business.
21 Q. And how about Ratko Joksimovic. Do you know him?
22 A. I know Ratko too.
23 Q. And Mojsic, do you know Borisav Mojsic?
24 A. I know him. He is a neighbour of mine, at the village.
25 Q. And the last person, it's Ljubisa Simjanovic [phoen]. Have you
1 heard of that person?
2 A. Do you mean Milica Simjanovic?
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Ljubi ...
4 A. I know him.
5 Q. Okay. [Previous translation continues] ... were you ever
6 involved in any type of criminal activities with these named individuals?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Are you aware that information has been provided to the ICTY that
9 you were involved in raiding a village and moving people into a house and
10 burning them alive; are you aware of that?
11 MR. ALARID: Objection, this is it beyond the scope of direct
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute please.
14 Ms. Sartorio, you have to bring this to an end now.
15 MS. SARTORIO: I will, Your Honour.
16 MR. ALARID: And what is basis for these accusations against this
17 witness? We have been provided no information with regards to this.
18 MS. SARTORIO: I'm just asking if he is aware of that, yes or no.
19 MR. ALARID: Relevance.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 MR. ALARID: No, this is a longer witness, Your Honour. It's
20 quite involved. I have about another half for him in direct. I think I
21 can try and move it along and cut out some questions here and there,
22 but ...
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. Are we in private session?
6 Could I request private session, please.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 5013-5016 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You do it. Should I read?
11 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
12 and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit and you may begin, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS MLD24
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Ivetic
18 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Dan Ivetic, and it is my
19 privilege and honour to be the one to ask you to answer some questions
20 for us today, and first I want to apologise for not being to that in the
21 same language with you today. I hope you will not take offence at it.
22 And with the assistance of the court usher as soon as she is available, I
23 would like first to present with you a pseudonym sheet that we have
24 prepared for you. Thank you.
25 Now, sir, once this sheet arrives at you -- near you, I would
1 like you to review the document and check the same to make sure that the
2 information contained therein as to your name in full is correct. And
3 then at that point I would ask to you confirm whether it is correct.
4 A. Should I read it out loud?
5 Q. No, no, you shouldn't read it. You should just read it to
6 yourself and please verify whether the information contained therein as
7 to your full name is accurate.
8 A. Yes, the information is correct.
9 Q. Can I ask you then to initial the document?
10 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I would ask for it to be
11 introduced under seal as the next available 1D exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D127 [realtime transcript read in error
13 "D127"] under seal, Your Honours.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 I think it should be 1D17; is that accurate or is it 117?
16 THE REGISTRAR: The transcript is incorrect. 1D127.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Q. Sir, I'll have to advise you at the beginning of your testimony
19 that this Chamber has granted protective measures of pseudonym for you so
20 that your full name will not be publicised; however, your voice and image
21 will be publicised only in the public portions of those proceedings. Are
22 you aware of that, and are you willing and able to proceed?
23 A. Yes, we can proceed. But I -- my eye-sight isn't so good
24 anymore. Whenever I don't understand a question, I will ask to you
25 repeat and that's how we can go about it.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now if we could first go into private
2 session to deal with the biographical background on this witness,
3 Your Honour.
4 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Page 5020 redacted. Private session.
3 (redacted) Could
4 you please tell what you say family name predominates in that village?
5 A. Do you want me to mention both the Muslim names and the Serbian
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... from that village, sir.
8 Surnames, I'm sorry, surnames.
9 A. Well, first the Gavrilovic, Grujic, Milosavljevic, Vasic, Simic,
10 and Bozic. Those are the Serbian last family names and Jasika also.
11 Q. And what about the Muslim surnames?
12 A. Kurspahic and Memisevic, Janovic, and that's it.
13 Q. Okay. We -- if you could please slow down a little bit. I know
14 from talking to you, you like to speak faster, but the transcript is
15 having a hard time keeping up with you, and presume the translation is as
16 well. If you cooperate we can try and get through this better.
17 Now, did you have occasion prior to the war to interact with and
18 know any of the Kurspahics, the Kurspahic family, from the village of
20 A. Yes, I always cooperated with them. (redacted)
22 (redacted) And I went to their -- or rather they
23 came to me, and I did all sorts of things for them.
24 Q. And -- okay. And with respect to the Kurspahics, we'll get into
25 that in more detail later as to the relationship with specific members of
1 that family. Right now could you tell us approximately how long have you
2 known various members of the Kurspahic family, the Kurspahic Muslim
3 family from Koritnik?
5 (redacted) and there
6 was a craftsman from who I learned I was an apprentice there. And I know
7 all the males by name, but I don't know all the women. But I -- I must
8 have met all of them.
9 Q. Thank you. And now after the war, do you know if any of the
10 Kurspahics had occasion to either return to Koritnik or visit Koritnik,
12 A. Until June they never went anywhere from that village but then
13 about 30 people came --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... might have been
15 mistranslated to you. I'm talking about after the war after the war.
16 I'm talking about after the war, do you know if any of the Kurspahics had
17 occasion to return to Koritnik or visit Koritnik, to your knowledge?
18 A. Yes. Three hours houses were built, and they come there and they
19 live there, and they work the land, and they get paid for that. And --
20 and they have some 30 or 40 beehives, one of the Kurspahics and -- so
21 they have bees, and they worked the land, and they also come to harvest
22 the plums which they sell in Sarajevo.
23 Q. Again I would just ask to you focus on my questions and speak
24 slowly so that we make sure we get all this evidence in. I fear some of
25 it is being lost from what I'm seeing on the transcript and what I'm
1 hearing, but I'll deal with that later.
2 Now, sir, with respect to these Kurspahics that have returned to
3 Koritnik for one reason or another, could you tell us the names, the
4 first names of these families that have been back, to your knowledge.
5 A. Asim returned; Sherif also; Meso, that's what he is called,
6 although his true name is Osman; then Becar's sons, Rade, but they also
7 come over the weekend. Sherif and Asim lived there all the time. Asim
8 died three years ago. His sons come from Sarajevo. Mirza and one,
9 another one, is a Sarajevo police commander. I don't know his name.
10 Q. And now do you still have occasion to see and interact with any
11 members of the --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel. Microphone, please.
13 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
14 Q. Have you had occasion to interact with members of the Kurspahic
15 family clan that have returned to Koritnik for one reason or another?
16 A. I spoke to Osman who is called Meso. We meet each other all the
17 time. I spoke to Mirza, he also came to my home. He had coffee with me
18 and juice. Asim also, I spoke to brother Jusa. And I spoke to everybody
19 who came there. And I also spoke to Dzemaja's [phoen] sons.
20 Q. Just waiting for the translation and transcript to catch up with
22 There is something about something you did last year with them,
23 and I see that is not in the transcript.
24 Could you repeat for us what referenced to last year and to
25 Dzemaja's sons whose names you do not know?
1 A. I bought hay from them. And they have a field there and we -- we
2 bought some hay from them, me and some other Serb neighbours of mine.
3 Q. Okay. And how would you describe the interactions with members
4 of the Kurspahic family today; that is to say, are they friendly towards
11 Pages 5025-5027 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 Q. Now, sir, we are in open session, so I would ask that you be very
4 careful not to mention anything that would reveal your name and identity
5 or place of residence.
6 Is that understood?
7 A. Yes, I understand.
8 Q. Thank you. Now could you tell us, please, with respect to the
9 time-period before the outbreak of the war, what were relations like
10 between Muslims and Serbs in your locale your region of Visegrad?
11 A. Well, not only in my locale but throughout the municipality of
12 Visegrad, I know that relationships were very fine. People visited each
13 other to celebrations, birthdays, and sending off their sons to the
14 Yugoslav army. Everybody invited each other to their homes, and there
15 was no -- no difference was made depending on ethnic background until
16 1992 when we were surprised by their demeanour.
17 Q. Now, with respect to the outbreak of the hostilities in Visegrad,
18 the war, did there come a time when you, yourself, were mobilised into
19 any of the structures, defence structures?
20 A. Yes. Such time came on the 10th of April. I was mobilised, but
21 I was a village guard. All of us from the neighbourhood, Muslims, posted
22 sentries in their places, and we in our -- and from 10th to the 19th of
23 April, we were guarding our villages.
24 Q. And with respect to your mobilisation, what about after that?
25 Were you mobilised or assigned after that to any other duties or any
1 other position?
2 A. On the 19th of April, we were mobilised into proper army, and we
3 were stationed in the elementary school at Prelovo.
4 Q. And upon being mobilised into the army, did you receive a uniform
5 and/or any other equipment upon your mobilisation?
6 A. Then we wore civilian clothes. We had not received any uniforms,
7 whoever could find some clothes wore them.
8 Q. And what about armaments? When you were part of the village
9 guard and later when you were mobilised into the proper army? What sort
10 of weapons were given to you first, going into each period?
11 A. While we were village guards we had no weapons. Whoever had
12 permits to hold hunting weapons, they would use them. After when we went
13 to Prelovo, we were issued with M48, very old gun. Then semi-automatic
14 and some received automatic rifles.
15 Q. Okay, and moving on. With respect to your military service, did
16 you receive any official documentation at the conclusion of the war
17 relative to your military service?
18 A. I didn't receive any documents. What do you mean? What kind of
20 Q. That is to say, did you receive credit with respect to your
21 pension for the time-period when you served in the official armed forces
22 during the Bosnian war?
23 A. I did my service from 19th of April, 1992, until the 1st of June,
24 1993. After that, I had under what duty, at the lines until 1995, 30th
25 of November, 1995. After that, I no longer performed any duties under
1 work duties.
2 Q. Now, sir, I have to ask you a very blunt question that may seem
3 odd to you, but since allegations are made in this courtroom every day, I
4 have to ask you this question; and have to apologise in advance and hope
5 you won't be offended by it, by me asking it.
6 But, sir, you were you ever a member of a paramilitary or
7 criminal organisation?
8 A. No, never. Never.
9 Q. Upon being mobilised and upon being stationed at the Prelovo
10 school, what types of tasks or assignments were you and the other persons
11 that were with you engaged in?
12 A. Well, we were sentries around the village, in the forests in all
13 the villages. I don't want to list all of them. We were guards until
14 the 22nd of May.
15 Q. And, sir, do you have any knowledge of during this -- during the
16 time-period between 1992 and 1995, did you have any knowledge of
17 Milan Lukic, that is to say, what organisation Milan Lukic was a part of,
18 specifically in 1992?
19 A. I knew Milan Lukic. I knew his parents. I used to see him while
20 my children attended school at Prelovo from grade 4 to grade 8. He was
21 slightly younger than my children. I knew him. I don't know that he
22 belonged to any organisation. He came back from Switzerland via Belgrade
23 in May. I used to bump into his father in the marketplace. There were
24 civilians sleeping next to military tents because they were afraid of
25 spending nights in their villages so they would -- for safety reasons
1 come to sleep in their own tents, next to military tents where we were.
2 Q. I apologise, I'm waiting for the transcript to catch with us.
3 We'll get to all that in a bit. I would again ask you to speak slower so
4 as to minimise the amount of questions that I have to ask as follow up to
5 correct things that are not coming up in the transcript.
6 First of all, do you have any knowledge of what -- of any --
7 of -- of -- of -- of what structure Milan Lukic was mobilised into in
9 A. When he came in May to Visegrad whenever I used to see him, when
10 I would come to town, I would -- used to see him with a Commander Tomic
11 in the company of Zeljko Tasic and Andric in a Gulf Passat. He would
12 drive, and the commander, Tomic, would be in the passenger seat. It was
13 a red Passat in mint condition.
14 Q. Now these other people, Commander Tomic, Zeljko Tasic,
15 Vidoje Andric, what structure did they belong to in 1992?
16 A. Those months, they escorted Commander Tomic. He was the
17 commander, and they were his escorts.
18 Q. Perhaps my question wasn't clear with respect --
19 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, when the counsel repeats back the
20 question to the witness and adds additional information without pointing
21 to it right now, without -- I'd just like to call the attention of the
22 Chamber that it that appears that sometimes the witness gives a certain
23 part of a name, for example, and counsel, when he follows up on that,
24 adds in names or corrects names.
25 I would just like to call the Chamber's attention to that and to
1 request counsel to refrain from doing that.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness give the evidence.
3 MR. IVETIC: He has, Your Honour. If you listen to the tape, you
4 will see that he said those names. I cannot be held responsible for the
5 fact that persons who do not speak B/C/S cannot hear the names and do not
6 appear in the transcript immediately. I have to ask the questions and I
7 cannot pay attention to the transcript to see what is coming into the
8 transcript and what is not. I have to listen to the witness, and again I
9 stand by everything that I've asked. And if the tape needs to be
10 reviewed, so be it. I would like to have the tape reviewed for every day
11 of this trial because I seen some things that need to be corrected.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let move on.
13 MR. IVETIC: Now -- thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Now with respect to -- and now I've lost my train of thought as
15 to where we were going. With respect to this individual you've identify
16 as Commander Tomic, what was he commander of?
17 A. Police commander. His father was a commander and before that he
18 worked in the offices and his father died. He was appointed as police
19 commander. I know it as a fact, and I stand by it.
20 Q. And with respect to those occasions when you would see
21 Milan Lukic and these individuals, where -- where -- where -- where was
22 that? You may have already answered it. I apologise. It is off my
23 screen now.
24 But where would you see them, in what areas?
25 A. In town or whenever I went to town, they would be there, and this
1 is how I saw them.
2 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on to another topic now.
3 There's been a lot in this trial about mention about the
4 White Eagles. What about the White Eagles? Did you ever see or hear of
5 Milan being associated with, being either a member or a founder or a
6 leader of the White Eagles group?
7 A. No, never. Milan was never a member of "Beli Orlovi," White
8 Eagles. They came in April, and there were headquarters in the new hotel
9 close to the bridge in Visegrad. They were an army unto themselves.
10 They never mixed with either police or regular military and this is what
11 I know for certain.
12 Q. What kind of reputation did the White Eagles have in Visegrad
13 town in 1992?
14 A. I don't understand what you meant or what you asked me.
15 Q. How did they act, and how did they act --
16 A. What they wore you mean?
17 Q. And how did the residents regard them?
18 A. Serbs and Muslims who knew that they had arrived didn't like it.
19 I don't know any of them. I didn't know where they came from.
20 Q. When you say, "I didn't know where they came from," were the
21 persons who called themselves the White Eagles locals or persons who come
22 from outside Visegrad?
23 A. No. No local was among them. I'm certain of that.
24 Q. And was there talk around town or who was reputed to be the
25 leader of this group, the White Eagles?
1 A. I don't know that. I don't know who that was. I don't know any
2 leaders or any commanders. I didn't hear anything about that. I tried
3 to get out of their way. I stuck with my unit, my other co-troops in my
4 unit and nobody of the locals wanted to have anything to do with them.
5 Q. Thank you. Now did there come to be a time-period when you were
6 assigned to some other village, other than Prelovo as part of your
7 fulfilment of you military service duties, upon mobilisation?
8 A. No, just Rujiste, while I was -- until the 1st of June, 1993.
9 After that I was sent to Kladanj, Niksicka, Visoravan, Jabuka, around
10 Gorazde, to man the front line. This is where I was sent.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, we'll take the break now.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Sir, when we left off, I believe, talking about the White Eagles.
18 I have just one more -- or a couple of more questions on that before
19 moving on to my remaining topics.
20 MR. IVETIC: First of all, if we can call up P229 in e-court.
21 Q. A photograph will be shown to you in a moment, sir. And if can
22 we can zoom in on the part of the Exhibit that's a photograph. Thank
24 Do you recognise either of these two individuals depicted in this
1 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, the witness has testified that he has
2 trouble with his eyesight perhaps we can established.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus, yes.
4 MS. MARCUS: The witness has testified that he has trouble with
5 his eyesight. Perhaps it might be an idea to establish how well can he
6 or cannot see.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, yes, he did volunteer that, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know both of them.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. Let's back up a bit. Can you describe for us what you see
12 depicted in this photograph.
13 I'm sorry, sir, [Previous translation continues] ... didn't get
14 to you.
15 Can you describe for us what you visually see in this photograph.
16 Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
17 A. I can see these people here with a vehicle, and I see this
18 writing with Faith in God. I see automatic rifles in their hands.
19 That's what I can see. The car, I don't know which make ...
20 Q. And, sir, based upon what you can see, do you see enough to
21 recognise either of these two individuals that are depicted in this
23 A. You want me to tell you who they are. On the left side, is
24 Stevo Milosavljevic, and on the right-hand side is Josip Stevanovic. He
25 worked with me from 1989 to 1992 in maintenance.
1 Q. Could you just repeat the first part of your answer, right and
2 left from what perspective? From what perspective right and left?
3 A. As they are looking at me, on the left is Stevo Milosavljevic.
4 On the right-hand side is Josip Stevanovic. He worked with me in Varda
5 in maintenance in the same workshop. They were locksmiths, and one of
6 them was a driver, and I was one of the sharpeners.
7 Q. And these individuals now, were either one of them known,
8 reputed, or otherwise believed to be members of the White Eagles or of
9 any paramilitary organisation in Visegrad in 1992, to your knowledge?
10 A. Both of them -- I mean, neither of them were white eagles or in
11 paramilitary units. They drove food supplies to troops at Poceva [phoen]
12 in Kabernik [phoen]. They only drove food supplies, because Josip was an
13 invalid and he was not an able-bodied man. He could in the be involved
14 in combat or anything.
15 Q. And what about the head gear on the man on the left? What can
16 you tell us about that head gear. What kind of hat is that?
17 A. It looks like the so-called Tito`s cap. I'm not sure if it is a
18 fur cap. It has the eagle sign on it.
19 Q. Thank you. And what about the gentleman on the right? What kind
20 of head gear does he have?
21 A. That is a sajkaca known as the Serbian peasant hat. Half the
22 world wears caps like that. Even I wore one.
23 Q. Okay. Now moving on to the other area you mentioned just before
24 the break that you had been stationed in Rujiste at some point in time.
25 Could you briefly tell us where the army was stationed in Rujiste
1 vis-a-vis the village itself or the roadway?
2 A. Overlooking the village closer to Kamenica which is a Muslim
3 village, and also facing Zenica.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, Zenica is a Muslim village; and Kamenica
5 is mainly a Serb village.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. There seems to be some confusion. I guess the best way for me to
9 resolve this is to ask you, sir, with respect to Kamenica, what ethnicity
10 predominantly lives in Kamenica?
11 A. Muslim. Muslim.
12 Q. And with respect to that region or that locale, where were the
13 enemy front lines of the Muslim forces situated in that area?
14 A. There were no Muslim forces except across the Drina river towards
15 Zepa. On our side there were no Muslim forces on that location
16 overlooking Rujiste.
17 Q. What about the civilian population of Rujiste, where were they
18 located or situated? Where did they spend their nights?
19 A. Left from our line that we were holding, about 800 metres to the
20 left. And all the civilians, and I know them all by name, slept close to
21 our tents, because they did not dare move too far away from us, because
22 Zepa was close, just across the Drina river.
23 Q. When you say they did not dare to move too far away from us, why
24 was that? Why couldn't they go and reside in their own village, in their
25 own homes?
1 A. They didn't dare to. They were Siptars [as interpreted] there,
2 and it was a Muslim village, and there were army troops close to Rujiste.
3 Q. Were there any neighbouring villages that had been adversely
4 affected or destroyed in 1992 by the enemy forces?
5 A. Yes, there was Sitarevo and Kamenica and Zenica, but I don't know
6 what army damaged or destroyed them. When we came on the 22nd of May, we
7 just stood guard there. We just held our own line. I mean, our company
9 Q. And if I can try to correct -- correct something that has come up
10 in the translation at page 41, line 10, your answer is recorded as, "they
11 didn't dare to. They were Siptars there. And it was a Muslim village."
12 Is that in fact what you said?
13 A. No, no, no. It is not "Siptars." It's the village called
14 "Sitarevo" a Muslim village, a Muslim village called Sitarevo. It was
15 misunderstood or maybe I misspoke.
16 Q. And was this village one of the villages that was destroyed in
17 the course of fighting?
18 A. The village was not completely destroyed. There were some houses
19 and barns remaining standing. It wasn't destroyed when we came there.
20 Q. Did you have occasion to run into or encounter the parents of
21 Milan Lukic whilst stopped in Rujiste with the army?
22 A. Yes. I did pass by their tent on the 13th of June when I was
23 going home to have a bath, together with another three or four soldiers.
24 We ran into his parents. They were both in tears. I asked, Why are you
25 crying? And they said there was action up there, in Kopito. He might
1 have gotten killed. I said go and see the commander. He will tell you.
2 And when I came home, my wife said, Milorad, three men died in
3 Gornja Lijeska, Commander Trifkovic who was battalion commander got
4 killed. Vlatko Filipovic, and another man Veljko got killed. I don't
5 know if they had any connections, but eventually I found out that he
6 wasn't killed.
7 Q. All right. Let's try and -- so I'm going to have to try and
8 break it up so to make it easier to understand.
9 First of all, what was your schedule like in the army that was
10 stationed up in Rujiste in terms of when you be on service and when you
11 would leave or a break?
12 A. It was in seven-day stints or even 15-day stints when they were
13 not enough troops. And when we went home on leave we would stay for two
14 or three days. And later on, when there was action at Kopita, we had
15 just one night go back home to change to have a bath, and then we had to
16 go back immediately.
17 Q. And -- and with respect to your encounter with the parents of
18 Milan Lukic, why did they believe that their son might have been killed?
19 A. Because he was up there on the line, on Simic Kopita. The road
20 was cut off on the 13th. They could not go back until the 15th of June.
21 The road was only opened on the 15th. That's why they were crying. They
22 thought that they might have gotten killed. It is terrible for parents
23 in war whenever they hear about someone getting killed, they think it
24 could be their child.
25 Q. And what news or event had occurred on the 13th that had gotten
1 back to the people in Visegrad that led them to think that Milan had been
3 A. Only his parents thought that. Because every parent thinks the
4 worst when they hear of even an accident. But, fortunately, it was not
5 Milan. It was Trifkovic and Novica, Savic and Veljko Mirkovic who got
7 Q. Now, you say that when you ... you say you came home and then
8 talked with your wife and discovered that Trifkovic and these others that
9 had been killed.
10 Let me --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let me ask you how long did you remain at your home before
13 returning to the --
18 MR. IVETIC: We need a redaction for that portion.
19 Q. Did anything unusual happen at your home that next day?
20 A. It was a Sunday, the Orthodox Trinity holiday. I was waiting for
21 the van to take me to the line in Rujiste. A group of Muslims came by.
22 They came to the gate. They were all standing there --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to slow down and
24 tell the names more clearly.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please speak more slowly.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat --
2 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... private
3 session, just to air on the side of caution since he is speaking so fast.
4 I'm not sure exactly everything that he is going to say. He might
5 mention details that would identify him or other protected persons.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, just for that purpose.
7 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
10 Q. Now, sir, again if you could listen to the Judge`s instruction
11 and please speak very slowly when describing every detail of this. Could
12 you tell us -- repeat your answer to my question which was: Did anything
13 unusual happen at your home that next day?
14 A. On the 14th, it was a Sunday, it was the Orthodox Trinity
15 holiday. I was at home sitting there. A group of Kortik [as
16 interpreted] came. I didn't know where they were going until they came
17 up to me and told me, Would you go with us to Sase. A bus is waiting for
18 to us to go Kladanj. I said, please, don't take me. I have to stay
19 here. I am waiting for a van to go to the line in Rujiste. I can't miss
20 the van. And they said, Please, by God, if you come with us, if we run
21 into some troops, nobody will touch us, nobody will dare if you are with
22 us. And I told them, I will go with you, but if I see a van taking
23 troops to the front line, I will have to go with it. I went with them.
24 I went all the way to Sase. We found that bus that had come to take
25 them. It was broken down. It got stuck in a canal. The driver went out
1 to look for a new vehicle. I sat with them, and I saw that finally the
2 time is coming up when the van was going to pick up with them. There was
3 a house nearby. I went out and asked a lady to call 92, the SUP, and to
4 ask them when the bus would come to pick up those people.
5 She called, and they answered, Let them wait. The bus will come.
6 I continued to sit with them and wait. But there was no bus. The lady
7 told me the SUP people had called again, and said, The commander gave
8 them a message to go walk to town. A bus would come and take them
9 Kladanj, and then my van came, and I got into it.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, could we request that prior session
11 all be retroactively made in open session as nothing has been revealed
12 whatsoever --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, yes.
14 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honour. That's fine. That's
15 fine. This next question, though, might. Let me just ask, and then we
16 can find out and retroactively put it in open if it does not reveal
17 anything that is a problem.
18 Q. When had you first started answering the question, you had
19 mentioned some names. Could you tell us specifically who from this
20 Koritnik group you encountered, and in particular, anyone that entered
21 into your home.
22 A. They came to my yard, and I went with them into Sase. That's
23 what I meant.
24 Q. Who are these persons from Koritnik that came into your yard?
25 Could you name them.
1 A. I can only tell you the names of people who were there, and there
2 were five, maybe six, women who were there. There was some younger
3 people whom I didn't know. I know them only by sight.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you had indicated that
5 someone had asked to you accompany them. Who specifically asked you and
6 begged you to accompany them?
7 A. Esma Kurspahic and her son Mirza, they came into my yard and they
8 asked me.
12 Q. Now, I think we can go back into open session from this point on,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Q. This group from Koritnik that you have identified, about how many
19 persons were there in this group that you could see?
20 A. Not more than 30, 32. Certainly not more. I know every man by
21 name. Every person by name.
22 Q. And did you have occasion to see them all with your own eyes, all
23 the persons that there were on that day?
24 A. They were all standing next to me on the road but my gate. I
25 went with them to Sase all the way.
1 Q. Okay. I'd like to take the opportunity to ask you about certain
2 persons, whether they were there in that group and what can you tell us
3 about them.
4 First of all, I'd like to ask you about Ajanovic Mule who in 1992
5 would have been approximately 75 years of age. Was this individual in
6 that group from Koritnik that came down the road that you encountered
7 that day?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. What about three individuals with the last name Delija and the
10 first names Adis, 2 years of age; Ajnija, 50 years of age; and Jasmina,
11 approximately 24 years of age. Were those persons in that group that you
12 saw and spoke with on the 14th of June, 1992?
13 A. They were not there at all. They were across the Drina. The
14 houses were across the Drina, and they were closer to Rogatica, if you
15 went to the woods, then to the town of Visegrad. There was no need for
16 them to come to our way to go to Sase because all -- we were all Serbs on
17 this side, and on the other side there were all Muslims. I told at the
18 beginning all the last names, and there was one Kada Sejic, born in
19 Koritnik. She went with her son Faruk. And she spent the night in
20 Koritnik and no one else.
21 Q. Sir, again, you're speaking very fast. If you could slow down
22 and please let me go through my list, it will be much easier for us all
23 to understand everything you have to testify about if you allow me to
24 break it down into pieces.
25 Now, for -- we left off, I believe, if I can ask you about
1 Jasarevic, Tima; Jasarevic, Hajra; Jasarevic, Meho; and Jasarevic, Mujo.
2 Were any of those persons there in that group from Koritnik on the 14th
3 of June, 1992?
4 A. Those people were not from Koritnik at all. They were closer to
5 Sase. There were none of them there. Mujo Jasarevic was an elderly man.
6 He had died about ten years before the war. I attended his funeral I
7 used to work him, and we knew each other. I don't know who told you that
8 he was there. You can't believe that list. There was not a single
9 Jasarevic. And Jatina [phoen], what's her name, wasn't there. No one
10 with that last name was there.
11 Q. Okay. You have already identified for us that Mujo died ten
12 years before the start of the war.
13 What can you tell us about Hajda Jasarevic. Do you have any
14 knowledge as to Hajda Jasarevic, where that person resides?
15 A. I don't know that name at all. I didn't see that woman at all.
16 There was no one from the Jasarevics.
17 Q. With respect to -- let's go through now -- Aisa Kurspahic,
18 approximately 49 years old in 1992. Was that individual part of the
19 group that was from Koritnik that day?
20 A. As far as I remember, she was there. She might been Redzo's wife
21 or Becar's, or Jasen's, but she was there.
22 Q. What about Aida Kurspahic, 12 years old, approximately. Was that
23 individual there in that group on the 14th of June, 1992?
24 A. Was no one 12 years old. There was only one Faruk Sejic. There
25 was no one younger. And there was a very, very small baby, maybe two
1 days old, in the arms of his mother.
2 Q. What about Aika Kurspahic, 62 years ago old, was that individual
3 there on the 14th of June, 1992?
4 A. Yes, she was.
5 Q. What about Alija Kurspahic, 55 years old.
6 A. Yes, Alija was there.
7 Q. What about Almir Kurspahic, approximately 10 years old.
8 A. No. No, not at all.
9 Q. Have you ever heard of an Almir Kurspahic who would have been ten
10 years old existing in Koritnik?
11 A. Never heard. Never heard. Maybe he existed, but he wasn't
13 Q. What about Aner Kurspahic, approximately six years old?
14 A. How old?
15 Q. Six years old.
16 A. No. No.
17 Q. What about Betsar [phoen] -- or Becar Kurspahic, approximately 52
18 years old?
19 A. Becar Kurspahic was there.
20 Q. What about a lady approximately 50 years of age,
21 Bisera Kurspahic. Was she is was she part of that group that you saw
22 that day?
23 A. I don't know that name. It's not familiar. Even if she was
24 there, I wouldn't have known her.
25 Q. Okay. What about a Bula Kurspahic, approximately 58.
1 A. Yes, Bula was there. She was Ismet Kurspahic's wife.
2 Q. And by the way, is Bula her real name?
3 A. No. No. She must have another real name, but Bula is the name
4 given to women who prepare a dead woman's body for the rites.
5 Q. What about Dzheva Kurspahic, approximately 22 years of age.
6 A. No, she wasn't there.
7 Q. What about Enesa Kurspahic, two years old.
8 A. No. Not there.
9 Q. What about Hasa Kurspahic, 18 years old?
10 A. No, she wasn't there.
11 Q. What about Hajrija Kurspahic, 60 years old. Was she in that
12 group that you had seen?
13 A. Yes, she was there. I know the older people, and I'm sure that
14 she was there.
15 Q. What about Halida Kurspahic, 10 years old.
16 A. No, she wasn't there.
17 Q. Apart from those you have already identified, I believe you
18 identified Faruk as being a young baby and the Mirza as being a teenager.
19 Were there any other children in that group? If not, I can skip them on
20 this reading.
21 A. No, there were no other children apart from the two day -- the
22 baby of two days, Faruk of 12 years, and Mirza who was 14. He said that
23 he was 14 when he came to my house. But no other younger people, I'm
24 sure of that.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let me skip ahead then to
1 some who are older age.
2 What about Hasnija Kurspahic, aged 62? Was that individual
4 A. Yes, I'm sure she was.
5 Q. What about Hata Kurspahic, 68 years old.
6 A. She was there too.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... about Hata Kurspahic and
8 your observations with respect to her on that day?
9 A. No. I didn't observe anything. They all behaved in the same
10 way. She didn't stick out from the others.
11 Q. What about Ifeta Kurspahic, 17 years old.
12 A. No, she wasn't there. I'm sure of that.
13 Q. Kurspahic Igabala. Was she there, aged 58?
14 A. Igabala Kurspahic, I don't know the name. But if I may say, they
15 were all older people. They were two younger girls. One was Esena, and
16 I don't know the name of the other. And the women who were there were
17 the wives of the men. Now I know all the men by name. And there were
18 four women, Mula Ajanovic, Bula who -- the widow of Ismet who worked in
19 Austria, and there was Hajda, and there was Kada. And the -- the Sejic
20 woman. These were the only women without husbands there?
21 Q. What about Ismeta Kurspahic, who would have been about 26? What
22 can you tell us about that person? First of all, did you see her on the
23 14th of June 1992 with that group from Koritnik?
24 A. No. I'm sure she was not there. I'm quite certain. If I -- if
25 she had been there, I would have told you so. But she wasn't.
1 Q. What else can you tell us about her?
2 A. In 1994, when we're up at Jabuka, there was a mountain by the
3 name of Bula, and they had a tent there in which they cooked, and on a
4 tree I saw the inscription Ismet Kurspahic and Hasena Kurspahic. So I
5 saw the names on the tree. They were probably cooks who worked there in
6 the tent.
7 Q. Now you say they had a tent there. Who is it that had this tent
8 there that you found in 1994?
9 A. Well, it was a Muslim tent, and I know of it.
10 Q. Was it a civilian tent or a military tent?
11 A. There was a kitchen there. We saw food and the other stuff, so
12 it was clear that they had their kitchen there.
13 Q. What about Kada Kurspahic, aged 40? Was she on that -- was she
14 there with that group on the 14th of June, 1992?
15 A. I never even heard of that Kada Kurspahic. And I really spent
16 many years there. There was only Kada Sejic.
17 Q. What -- what about Latifa Kurspahic who would have been
18 approximately 23 years of age? Was she part of that group from Koritnik?
19 A. I don't know. I'm -- I'm not familiar with the name. There were
20 three or four younger girls. That's all. I don't know them all by name.
21 Q. What about Medina Kurspahic? Was she there, in that group that
22 you saw on the 14th of June, 1992?
23 A. I know that person. She was the daughter of Medo Kurspahic, and
24 she had a sister at a -- at a kindergarten near the village. She was not
25 part of that group.
1 Q. You mentioned Medo Kurspahic. Was Medo Kurspahic, aged 50,
2 there, in that group?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. What about Meira Kurspahic, aged 47, was that individual in that
5 group that you saw op that day?
6 A. I don't know that name, and I'm sure she wasn't there.
7 Q. What about Meva Kurspahic, aged 45.
8 A. No, she wasn't there either.
9 Q. What about Mujesera Kurspahic, age 35. Or Mujesera is a perhaps
10 a better pronunciation. Aged 35?
11 A. No, there was no one of that age there. I'm certain of that.
12 The same sounds somewhat familiar, but she wasn't there. I'm sure of it.
13 Q. What about Munivera Kurspahic, aged 20?
14 A. I don't know that one. She wasn't there, I'm sure.
15 Q. What about Munira Kurspahic, aged 55?
16 A. She was there.
17 Q. What about Osman Kurspahic, aged 67? Was that individual part of
18 the group that you saw on that day?
19 A. Yes, I'm sure, Osman was there.
20 Q. What about Hasijar Pasija Kurspahic, aged 56?
21 A. Pasija Kurspahic the wife the Edem, she was there.
22 Q. What about Ramiza Kurspahic, aged 57?
23 A. I don't remember that name at all. I don't know if she was
24 there. Actually she certainly wasn't there. I would have known the
25 older women by name, but I don't remember that name.
1 Q. What about Kurspahic, Safa, aged 50, was that individual in that
3 A. I don't remember her either. She can't have been.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Kurspahic Saha, aged 70?
5 Aged 70.
6 A. She was there. She was a big fat women; I remember her.
7 Q. What about Kurspahic Sumbula, aged 62? Was that individual
9 A. Yes, she was there, too.
10 Q. And I'm skipping ahead, skip any minors.
11 What about Memisevic Fazila, was that individual a part of the
12 group you encountered form Koritnik on that day?
13 A. There were only two Memisevics, Redzo and his wife.
14 Q. And what about Sadikovic Rabija, 52 years of age, was that
15 individual there?
16 A. There was no such women was there. The last name Sadikovic
17 cannot be found there at all.
18 Q. Okay. We have -- you've already mentioned Sejic Kada. What
19 about Velic, Nurka? Was that individual present in that group that you
21 A. Nurka Velic, she is from another village. She wasn't there.
22 Kada Sejic was there, because she was the daughter of Asip [phoen]
23 Kurspahic and she was with her -- at her father's house, and that's why
24 she was part of that group.
25 Q. What about Velic, Tima, who would have been 35 years of age. Was
1 that individual part of that group?
2 A. No that is Mirka's daughter, the same, Mirka [phoen] Velic. She
3 is was from another village, and she wasn't there at all.
4 Q. Do you have as knowledge as to Tima Velic, as to where that
5 individual lives?
6 A. I don't know why they went. I heard from people in the townsfolk
7 that she is alive, but I don't where she lives. She must have left
8 before the war or in the early days of the war, but I heard people saying
9 that she was alive.
10 Q. Who is Timke Velic?
11 A. I don't know that person at all.
12 Q. What about Timke Velic, T-i-m-k-e?
13 A. No, I don't know that person at all. And she wasn't there.
14 Q. And lastly, what about Jasmina Vila, was any individual by that
15 name part of that group that you saw from Koritnik on the 14th of June,
17 A. No. She wasn't there. She was from another village, Musici
18 toward Prelovo, but it is a long village. Toward Kortalic [phoen]. I
19 said at the beginning that there were only four last names, Kurspahic,
20 Ajanovic, Redzo Memisevic, and Kada Sejic. That's all. And those were
21 all the family names that could be found there in that group.
22 Q. Thank you for the answers.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
24 witness in direct. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just before you begin, Ms. Marcus, for the
1 purposes of the record, and the court deputy, the pages that are to be
2 placed in public session, page 44, line 13 to page 45, line 18.
4 MR. GROOME: Sorry, I hate to be clerk-like here. But tomorrow
5 they will be assigned completely different numbers. Perhaps,
6 Your Honour, can say the first sentence and last independence, we will be
7 able to find that tomorrow when it is repaginated.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... of the
9 transcript. It will be done.
10 Yes, Ms. Marcus.
11 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Before we begin, I just wanted to put on the record the fact that
13 this witness had been given a pseudonym, another pseudonym, in early
14 filings relating to the alibi. We discussed that briefly during the
15 break, and perhaps, just to call the Chamber's attention to that, I think
16 at some point for it to be clarified on the record that those two
17 pseudonyms refer to the same person. I think -- he wasn't granted
18 protective measures, but the earlier filings used a pseudonym because he
19 was in an order of pseudonyms that the Defence was, I suppose,
20 anticipating might be used for this witness. And because some of the
21 litigation as to this case refers to him under that pseudonym, just to
22 avoid any confusion, it might be an idea at some point to put on the
23 record that the two pseudonyms refer to the same person.
24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: And what is the other pseudonym?
25 MS. MARCUS: MLD 6.
1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just -- you're satisfied with that, Mr. Ivetic?
3 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour, although at that time
4 no protective measures were sought for MLD 6. It was a proposed --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated] [previous translation
6 continues] ... refer to the same person.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I can verify that that is,
8 I believe, accurate.
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, this witness has given approximately
10 12 pages of evidence in relation to the Pionirska Street fire, in fact, I
11 have actually 19 pages of evidence in relation to the events of
12 Pionirska Street and the victims of the Pionirska fire, and as far as I
13 have approximately one page in relation to the alibi at Kopito. So I
14 would just like to request of the Chamber - I will do my very best in
15 terms of cross-examination - but we would like to request that the
16 Chamber ask the witness to stay back, and by tomorrow afternoon we will
17 left the Chamber know whether there is any further cross-examination on
18 this brand new evidence that was completely unnoticed to the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour, although again I stress
21 that the statement disclosed to us by the Office of the Prosecutor talks
22 precisely about this event that they had no knowledge of.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I will ask that witness remain behind.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus;
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir, my name is Maxine Marcus, and I will be
3 asking awe few questions today on behalf of the Prosecution.
4 Can you hear me clearly?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Sir, would it be correct to say --
7 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, before the question, could I please request
8 private session.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 5057-5062 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. MLD 24, under the Republika Srpska Criminal Code misleading a
22 competent body into certifying a false matter in a public document,
23 register, or book could constitute a violation punishable by law with
24 imprisonment of up to two years.
25 Are you aware of that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Under the same Republika Srpska Criminal Code creating a false
3 document or altering a genuine document could similarly constitute a
4 violation punishable by law with imprisonment of up to three years. Are
5 you aware of that?
6 A. Yes, I know that.
7 Q. And finally, under that same code, creating a false document or
8 altering a genuine public document and putting it into circulation or
9 keeping it in order to use it or, in fact, using it could be a violation
10 punishable with up to five years of imprisonment, are you aware of that?
11 A. Yes, I am aware of that as well.
12 Q. MLD 24 you were a member of the army of Republika Srpska as you
13 have testified. Correct?
14 A. Yes, sure.
15 Q. And your dates of service, I believe, you said, were from the
16 19th of April?
17 A. Yes, in 1992, until the 1st of July, 1993. I was in the regular
18 army, and after that I was under work duty as I stated in my testimony.
19 Q. Now, just to clarify, your service lasted until the 1st of
20 July 1993 or the 1st of June, 1993?
21 A. The 1st of July. I have a document listing all my positions
22 where I was on duty, et cetera.
23 Q. And you did engage in military operations after that time during
24 the war all the way through 1995, did you not?
25 A. Until the 30th of November.
1 Q. What unit did you operate in?
2 A. I was in a company, Rujiste Company. There is a military post
3 number, but I can't remember it.
4 Q. Who was your commanding officer?
5 A. Slavko Vojnovic until the 1st of July 1993, he was a company
6 commander. After that we did not have any commander. Whenever a courier
7 would come to home and said reports to this or this place at Okoliste,
8 and then among soldiers we would be pointed to go to different positions
9 to replace the people manning the front line, and this is how we did and
10 they did. We had no commander at the time.
11 Q. Now, throughout your military service, would you agree that there
12 was active armed combat in Visegrad and the surrounding municipalities?
13 A. Yes, there was in the surrounding municipalities at Medjedja,
14 Gorazde, Rogatica, but I don't go there. The furthest I went in the
15 direction of the Gorazde was Jabuka.
16 Q. And during that time there was armed combat within Visegrad
17 municipality as well. Correct?
18 A. No. From the 1st of July there were no conflicts in Visegrad.
19 Well, the only places where there was some action was at Sjemec and
20 around Kopita and that sort of places.
21 Q. Now in the months of May and June of 1992, there were hostilities
22 in Visegrad municipality. Would you agree with that?
23 A. Yes, I agree. Yes, there was on that other side by -- on the
24 part of the Muslims.
25 Q. Did you, yourself, ever wear a police uniform?
1 A. Police? No, I didn't understand the question.
2 Q. My question was whether you ever wore a police uniform.
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. Did you wear a variety of different kinds of military uniforms or
5 only one?
6 A. Initially as I said we were all civilians. People wore their own
7 clothes. When we were issued uniforms, there were camouflage, and this
8 is what I wore until the 30th November, 1995.
9 Q. And do you recall the date on which you were issued your
11 A. Maybe at the beginning of June to us, the regular army, not
12 before the beginning of June.
13 MS. MARCUS: Could I request that we go into private session.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 5067 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MS. MARCUS:
12 Q. MLD 24, how often would you say you saw Milan Lukic in June of
14 A. In June 1992, I would see him only when I would go to town from
15 the front line. I would see him with a Commander Tomic. He was driving
16 that car around, and this is the only circumstances of me seeing him
18 Q. Would you see him in a VRS uniform or a police uniform; or
19 sometimes one, sometimes the other?
20 A. No. They didn't change their uniforms. They -- the police had
21 one type of uniforms.
22 Q. So which uniform did you see Milan Lukic wearing?
23 A. In the camouflage police uniform. They had slightly different
24 equipment and gear.
25 Q. When you say "slightly different equipment and gear," what are
1 you referring to, please?
2 A. Different from ours. Different colour patterns, different
4 Q. Did you see Milan Lukic with a sniper rifle or an automatic
6 A. No, I didn't see him with a sniper rifle. Throughout the war,
7 but he did have an automatic rifle, all the troops had automatic rifles.
8 I -- about a sniper rifle, I don't believe that there was a single one in
9 my company. I don't even maybe know how to recognise one.
10 Q. So if you don't know how to recognise one, you can't be sure
11 whether you saw Milan Lukic carrying one or not. Isn't that correct?
12 A. No, I didn't see him with such a rifle. I didn't see him.
13 Q. You saw Milan Lukic wearing a variety of different insignias.
14 Would that be accurate?
15 A. No, I didn't see that either. I'm sure.
16 Q. So which insignia did you see him wearing?
17 A. Well, eagle emblem all the troops, all the military personnel
18 wore such eagles.
19 Q. Do you recall the precise dates in June of 1992 when you saw
20 Milan Lukic in a camouflage uniform with an eagle insignia?
21 MR. ALARID: Objection, overly broad.
22 MS. MARCUS: It is it actually a price question about the price
23 dates, it couldn't be more specific.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please answer the question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall the dates in
1 June or any other month. I cannot tell you the precise dates. I'm sure
2 I cannot.
3 MS. MARCUS:
4 Q. So you cannot recall whether or not you saw him in June of 1992
5 on any particular day. Is that your evidence? You cannot recall whether
6 you saw Milan Lukic or not on any particular day, in June of 1992?
7 A. I used to see him in June 1992, but I could not recall the proper
8 dates. I really wasn't mindful of the dates at the time, but did I see
9 him during June.
10 Q. So how many times would you estimate you saw Milan Lukic in
11 Visegrad in June of 1992?
12 A. Whenever I would have a day off from the front line, I would go
13 to Visegrad and every time I would see him in the car driving around. I
14 cannot specify how many times that was.
15 Q. Can you give a precise date as to when you saw Milan Lukic with
17 A. I just told you whenever I saw him I would see him with Tomic
18 throughout June and until the end of July, I would use -- used to see him
19 with Tomic and Zjelko, until he was killed. He was killed in June. And
20 the other were killed on the 19th of July. I know that because I
21 attended Tomic's funeral.
22 Q. So you testified that whenever you would have day off from the
23 front line, you would go to Visegrad and every time you would see him in
24 the car driving around. How many times would you say --
25 A. Yes, yes. Yes. He would drive the car, but the commander would
1 be sitting in the passenger seat.
2 Q. So approximately how many times would you say in June of 1992 you
3 would have had a day off and gone into Visegrad and seen Milan Lukic?
4 A. Well, you know, we had seven-day stints, maybe ten-day stints,
5 sometimes 15-day stints, depending on the number of available troops,
6 which means that at least three to four times I went home for rest and
7 recreation during month of June 1992, that would be it.
8 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, if you're planning on taking a break,
9 this might be a pausing point.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, before we do that, just before it goes
11 of the screen, page 71, lines 14 through 17, they are going to need to be
12 listened to because there was evidence as to the dates of death and the
13 funeral, and that's not in the transcript.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, what is the point, Mr. Ivetic?
15 MR. IVETIC: We'll need to have the audio record listened to
16 lines 14 to 17 because he testified as to the funeral and the dates of
17 the death for the individuals and that's not reflected in the transcript.
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, there is a procedure for this. We use
19 it on an normal daily basis. Our case manager is happy to provide them
20 with a form that they can use to submit for transcript corrections.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will use the normal procedure, not court
23 MR. ALARID: Well, it would -- since -- since when does it become
24 the defendant's responsibility to maintain a transcript in this purest
25 sense of the word. I mean, I think the problem is, is from a staffing
1 perspective every time we fill out a form, it is time taken away from
2 some other pertinent bit of business within the office. That one of the
3 issues, and the thing is, is some of -- the only way we can make the
4 record properly reflective is here in court as it is happening.
5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I've filled this form many times. It
6 takes less than three minutes, and perhaps --
7 MR. ALARID: And they rotate an attorney for -- by witnesses by
8 several days, I understand.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you saying that you're over-resourced, and
10 what -- Mr. Alarid will find the time to do it.
11 We'll adjourn.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. MLD 24, can you hear me?
17 Sir, can you hear me clearly?
18 A. Yes, I hear you well.
19 Q. I know it's been a long day, I appreciate your cooperation.
20 Sir, earlier on you mentioned somebody named Dragan Lukic. Can
21 you confirm for us whether that person still alive today?
22 A. Yes, he sure is alive.
23 Q. And was he referred to, or is he referred to as Drago?
24 A. No. Just Dragan.
25 Q. Now earlier on you mentioned the Holy Trinity celebration, which
1 is a -- a special Serb Orthodox holiday lasting three days. Is that
3 A. Yes. The first Holy Trinity, the second day of Holy Trinity, and
4 the third day of Holy Trinity.
5 Q. And you also testified that you would have some days when you
6 would go in town. Were you able to take off the Holy Trinity holidays
7 from your operations?
8 A. No. It was coincidental that I went back home to take a bath,
9 but I returned the next day. I came home on the 13th of June, I have
10 always maintained that and returned on the following day.
11 Q. And so which of those days was Holy Trinity -- which one of those
12 days was one of the days of Holy Trinity?
13 A. Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.
14 Q. Now how much would you say saw you Sredoje Lukic in June of 1992?
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. CEPIC: This witness never mentioned that he saw
18 Sredoje Lukic in June of 1992.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you have occasion, Ms. Marcus, to refer to
20 Sredoje before?
21 MS. MARCUS: Yes, I referred to Sredoje before in terms of
22 whether -- we are in closed session; is that right? We're not. It was
23 referred to before in terms of knowledge of the family.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MS. MARCUS: I'll add a question as to whether or not he saw him.
1 Q. Sir --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
3 MR. CEPIC: Due to my best recollection, the name of my client
4 was just mentioned in relation. Was he a family member or not, nothing
5 more than that. And I can give the reference. That was on the page --
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have been through this before.
7 MR. CEPIC: 60 --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: As part of her indication.
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, can I just pose a question about
10 whether or not he saw him.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
12 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
13 Q. Sir, I'll take one step back in my questioning.
14 Did you see Sredoje Lukic in Visegrad in June of 1992?
15 A. Yes, I did see him. He was a professional policeman, an active
17 Q. So how often, approximately, would you say you saw him in
18 Visegrad in June of 1992?
19 A. Two, three times, not more. When I went to town it was rare that
20 I would see him as well.
21 Q. Now just it clarify your last statement, if I understood it, you
22 said, "whenever I went to town it was rare that I would see him as well."
23 A. Yes, less often.
24 Q. Less often than you would see Milan Lukic. Is that what you're
1 A. That's correct, yes.
2 Q. Now when you saw Sredoje Lukic did you see him with a weapon;
3 and, if so, what kind of weapon?
4 A. His were the same weapons with this -- difference that he was an
5 active professional policeman. I would sometimes see him in town.
6 Q. So presumably he wore the same insignias as well. Is that
8 A. Yeah, policemen's insignia. Yes, genuine policemen's insignia.
9 Q. Can you describe the policemen's insignia?
10 A. They were -- they -- the uniform was camouflage but blue, and
11 they wore -- wore the -- policeman's caps.
12 Q. Now specifically about the insignia -- is it the same?
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
14 MR. CEPIC: I apologise. If it is possible to hear the best
15 translation for the type of policeman's caps. Even if we can have in the
16 brackets the term which witness mentioned, "sapka."
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Interpreters can we have that? "Sapka."
19 THE INTERPRETER: It is an "sapka," a policemen's cap with a
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thanks.
22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
23 MS. MARCUS:
24 Q. Now, sir, you just said that Sredoje Lukic would have been
25 wearing a policemen's insignia, a genuine policemen's insignia. Can you
1 describe that for us, please.
2 A. I knew that they had insignia on the sleeves. It was a
3 policemen's insignia, like any other policemen, they wore them.
4 Q. Can you be -- is there any detail about the insignia that you can
5 tell us about, that you can describe, to your knowledge?
6 A. I can't remember any details. I wasn't really looking carefully.
7 I didn't have anything to do with the police. I didn't cooperate with
8 them, I would just pass them by on my way to work and back.
9 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the court officer to call up ERN
10 Y0268884. If that helps, that is also 65 ter -- on Milan Lukic, 65 ter
11 number 21. I have another number. 1D22-0079.
12 Q. Sir, do you recognise the document on the left side of your
14 A. I can't see very well, and I can't recognise it. I just see my
15 signature at the bottom.
16 Q. Okay. So can you confirm that this is the statement that you
17 gave to the Defence of Milan Lukic?
18 A. Yes, it certainly is.
19 Q. Now, in this statement, if I could request, please, that we have
20 also have the English. In the middle of the statement it says: "The" --
21 "The Beli Orlovi," which was the White Eagles, "wore camouflage,
22 were armed with automatic rifles, and wore red berets with eagle
24 Can you describe this sign of the eagle in bit more detail?
25 A. We call it the White Eagle patch on the cap. I never had one.
1 Q. So if you saw the sign of the eagle, then you would have assumed
2 that that person was a member of the White Eagles. Is that correct?
3 A. Not necessarily. There were other troops who had the eagle sign
4 on their caps, the active duty personnel in the army and others.
5 MS. MARCUS: Could we ask that this statement be admitted.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P25 -- Your Honours.
8 MS. MARCUS: I guess it should be under seal.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. It will be admitted under seal.
10 MS. MARCUS: Could I now request ERN 0646-1660.
11 Q. Sir, this is the eagle insignia which you just described in your
12 statement and now in your testimony. Isn't that true?
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, misstates the evidence.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
15 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I must say, that was a timed objection.
16 MR. IVETIC: No described a patch, Your Honour. He describe a
17 patch, a White Eagle patch. This is it not a patch.
18 MS. MARCUS: The word used was "insignia."
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC: I see patch, and on the transcript, it says patch.
21 MS. MARCUS:
22 Q. Sir, you just confirmed, haven't you, that this, what you see in
23 front you, is a symbol that you would have assumed to be a member of the
24 White Eagles. Correct?
25 A. I didn't see that before. I just knew that the eagle was on the
1 cap, on the forehead. I never saw any on the sleeve.
2 Q. Okay. So if this were to be a cap, if this is a symbol on a cap
3 then this would be, to your knowledge, could be the symbol of the White
4 Eagles. Is that correct?
5 MR. IVETIC: Objection, again, misstates the evidence.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: She is asking him a question. She can't ask him
7 a question, whether this is the symbol of the White Eagles. Seems like a
8 perfectly ordinary question.
9 What is the answer?
10 MS. MARCUS:
11 Q. Sir, are you able to answer the question? Would you like me to
12 repeat it?
13 Let me repeat the question. I'm sorry to ask you so many times,
14 the same thing.
15 If you were to see --
16 A. I'm sorry, you didn't ask me -- I don't know if you're asking me
17 or someone else.
18 Q. Yes, sir, Mr. MLD 24. So now I will ask you the question just
19 one more time.
20 If you were to see this symbol that you see on the screen in
21 front of you, would it have been reasonable for you to assume that this
22 was a White Eagle?
23 A. I can't know. Lots of people had that sign on their caps, and we
24 had it. The White Eagle was also worn on the red berets.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you testified earlier that you met
1 Milan Lukic's parents in Rujiste on the 13th of June, and that they --
2 A. Right.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that they were crying and
4 they told you they feared that Milan may be dead. Is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. What time of day was this?
7 A. Around 4.00 p.m., when I set off on my way home.
8 Q. What specifically did Milan Lukic's parents tell you?
9 A. They told me I was going by them. They were crying, and they --
10 I asked them, mile, why are you crying? And he said at Sjemec-Kopita up
11 there, there was some sort of fighting, some troops had fallen, I think
12 Milan might have been among them. I said don't worry. Why don't you
13 call up his commander Slavko Vojnovic and find out, and then I went home.
14 As soon as I got home my wife told me some soldiers had gotten killed. I
15 heard one of them was Zlatko Drivkovic [phoen], Novica Savic, and Veljko
16 Mirkovic; those were the three who were killed. I don't know what time
17 it was, but I know as soon as I got home my wife told me that much.
18 Q. So what you just said was that they told you that they think
19 Milan might have been among them. Is that correct?
20 A. That's what they were afraid of. They were afraid he -- he might
21 have been among those killed.
22 Q. Now, did they tell you how they knew, how they -- what caused
23 them to have this fear? Did they tell you that?
24 A. I didn't ask them how they found out about the incident. I just
25 told them not cry until they found out exactly what had happened.
1 Q. Did you have any communication devices in the village?
2 A. Not at the village, no. There was -- there were no communication
3 devices at the village.
4 Q. Now, you were guarding Rujiste on that day, were you? Were you
5 among the guards at Rujiste on that day?
6 A. Not that day. I said that we stood guard before, from the 10th
7 until the 19th April. That's when the village guards were on.
8 Q. So who was guarding Rujiste on that day?
9 A. You mean on the 13th of June and around that day?
10 They were still people remaining in the village, men remaining in
11 the village who had not gone to the front line, and they guarded the
12 village, but I was not one of them.
13 Q. Now, how many men would you say were guarding Rujiste village on
14 the 13th of June?
15 A. Well, I could tell you about all the village. Just --
16 Gojko Jovanovic, Momcilo Nikolic, Radomir Gavrilovic, Vidoje Pejovic, and
17 Drago Jovanovic. Those men were in the village still.
18 Q. So I think you listed five. Is that about right?
19 A. Well, I told you exactly which men were in the village at that
20 time. You count them.
21 Q. Okay. Now a number of those men from -- who were guarding
22 Rujiste were actually rounded up and sent on an operation in Kopito. Is
23 that correct?
8 A. Well, there were usually around 20 men on the forward line.
9 Where I was there were 22 or 23, and perhaps some more in other places.
10 Not more than 50 men in total.
11 MR. IVETIC: If I could just intervene for the transcript, lines
12 - I just lost it - 18 through 21 there is going to need to be redactions
13 of his village's name if we are in open session, which I believe we are.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 MS. MARCUS:
16 Q. Sir, were you in Rujiste village on the morning of the 13th of
17 June, 1992?
18 A. I arrived in the evening of the 13th of June to my home, in fact
19 around 4.00. That morning I set off towards my home in a van.
20 Q. So you left Rujiste village in the morning to set off to your
21 home, which we're not going name because we're in public session, in the
22 morning of the 13th. Is that right now?
23 A. 4.00 p.m. It was the afternoon.
24 Q. Okay. I'm going to need to clarify. Again, I'm sorry to focus
25 on the details.
1 You testified that you met Milan Lukic's parents in Rujiste
2 village on the 13th of June.
3 A. Yes. Because their tent was there. All the civilians were
4 sleeping in tents close to our tent. I said that at the beginning.
5 Q. Right. Now my question was whether you were in Rujiste village
6 on the morning of the 13th?
7 A. Yes, I was, all the way until 4.00 p.m.
8 Q. So you were no doubt there when a group of the guards at Rujiste
9 were rounded up and deployed on the operation in Kopito. Is that
11 A. I don't know who was rounded up. I never heard anything about
12 that. Maybe from another platoon or from another unit, not from my
13 platoon, certainly. Nobody was rounded up.
14 Q. Sir, you mentioned some names of some persons whom you heard from
15 your wife had been killed on that day. Can you repeat the names, please.
16 A. Vlatko Trifkovic, commander of the battalion; Novica Savic; and
17 Veljko Mirkovic. Those three men had gotten killed at Lijeska.
18 Q. I'm going to read a few lines of what you testified to earlier.
19 I'm reading from what is now page 42, line 10.
20 You said: "When I came home my wife said," and then your name is
21 there, "three men died in Gornje Lesce," which I suppose would be
22 Lijeska, "commander who was the battalion commander who got killed.
23 Vlatko Filipovic, and another man, Veljko, got killed. I don't know if
24 they had any connections, but eventually I found out that he wasn't
1 So am I right to understand this as saying you don't know if
2 Milan Lukic had any connections with those commanders who were killed on
3 that day?
4 A. I don't know whether he had any connection, I'm not insure. All
5 I know that he was up there on those days, the 13th, the 14th and the
6 15th, they were cut off. I heard that over the communications.
7 Q. Now I just recall you testifying that there were no
8 communications, so maybe I misunderstood your evidence.
19 MR. IVETIC: Redactions from page 83, line 25, through page 84,
20 line 8, the name of the village that needs to be redacted.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
22 MS. MARCUS:
23 Q. Now, sir, did you -- you heard from people in Rujiste about the
24 deployment in Kopita, is that correct, you heard that when you visited
1 A. I did not say that, that they were sent. None of the men from my
2 platoon. I don't know about other platoons. I couldn't have said that.
3 Maybe you misunderstood.
4 Q. You heard from Milan Lukic's parents that they thought he might
5 have been deployed to Kopito. Is that correct?
6 A. They knew he was sent to Kopito. I don't know how they found out
7 and they told me so, and that's for sure how it was. There is no mistake
8 about that.
9 Q. And is this the only way that you came to believe that
10 Milan Lukic was in Kopito on those dates?
11 A. He was there for sure, because he didn't come back for three
12 days. The road was opened only on the 15th. You could hear from that
13 the troops. You can hear everything through military communications.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, what counsel was asking you, you
15 haven't really answered. She asked whether that was the only way that
16 you knew or that you came to believe that Milan Lukic was in Kopito on
17 those dates. That is what you heard from his parents.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just from what I heard from his
19 parents and when I came back home, again, I repeat, my wife told me that
20 three men had gotten killed there. She didn't know -- she -- she gave me
21 some names, and the first I heard from it was from Mile and Kata.
22 MS. MARCUS:
23 Q. Was there something particularly remarkable or unusual to make
24 that conversation stick out so clearly in your memory, that conversation
25 you had in Rujiste?
1 A. Just what I told you, and I have a pretty good memory as to what
2 I hear, and I don't tend to forget such things.
3 Q. But you unfortunately were not able to tell us the dates on which
4 you saw Milan Lukic in Visegrad in June of 1992.
5 A. Because I wasn't interested enough. I didn't keep track. I
6 didn't keep track of the dates. Whenever I went home on leave, I would
7 also go to town. But which dates, those were in June. I didn't remember
8 because I didn't think I would need it.
9 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you some about some individuals to see
10 whether you know them.
11 You do know Mitar Vasiljevic, do you not?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And how do you know him?
14 A. I know him because he worked as a waiter, and whenever I went to
15 the bar he was there working different shifts. He worked different jobs
16 in several coffee bars and taverns, and he liked his drink, and he was
17 more or less tipsy all the time.
18 Q. To your knowledge, was Mitar Vasiljevic a member of Milan Lukic's
19 group in Visegrad in 1992?
20 MR. ALARID: Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. You have to establish that
22 Milan Lukic did have a group.
23 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Q. Sir, do you confirm that Milan Lukic had a group in June of 1992?
25 A. You're asking me?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I didn't know -- in fact Milan Lukic did have a group, but
3 Mitar Vasiljevic was not there. He just swept streets. In fact he was
4 in charge of streets sweeping. He would take some people, either Serbs
5 or Muslims and chart them with street sweeping.
6 Q. Do you know somebody named Radomir Simsic?
7 A. Radomir Simsic? He is from Glavici village, but he has been
8 living somewhere in Serbia close to Belgrade for a long time. He was in
9 the initial boot camp training with me in the army. I know the man, but
10 he had long left for Serbia, somewhere close to Belgrade.
11 Q. Do you have knowledge of Radomir Simsic being a member of
12 Milan Lukic's group in June of 1992?
13 A. Certainly not. He wasn't even in Visegrad.
14 Q. Do you know someone named Dusko Vasiljevic?
15 A. I heard of him. He is also somewhere in Serbia. He had left
16 when I was in Loznica. He used to work in Greben, and then he left for
17 Serbia. I heard of him, but I don't know him.
18 Q. Do you know what relation he is, if any to Mitar Vasiljevic?
19 A. Well, they are both Vasiljevics. Same village. I don't know if
20 they are related.
21 Q. Do you know, to your knowledge, was Dusko Vasiljevic a member of
22 Milan Lukic's group in 1992?
23 A. I don't know that either. I don't know.
24 Q. What about Ljubisa Vasiljevic?
25 A. I don't know about him either.
1 Q. You don't know who he is, or you don't know if he was a member of
2 Milan Lukic's group?
3 A. I heard that Ljubisa and Dusko were brothers, that they lived in
4 Serbia. I don't know whether they were in any way connected with Lukic.
5 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to go into private session, please.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 MS. MARCUS:
15 Q. MLD 24, I have just one more name on this list to ask you about
16 and that is a man named Zoran Mitrasinovic.
17 A. I know the man.
18 Q. How do you know him?
19 A. He is from the village of Rijeka, and I know that he worked at
20 the Unis company in Zica. I know him, he is a younger fellow.
21 Q. And do you know him to have operated with Milan Lukic's group in
22 June of 1992?
23 A. I am not aware of that. He may have, but I'm really not familiar
24 with that.
25 Q. Well, since you know him, let me ask you about an another
1 Mitrasinovic. That would be Miodrag Mitrasinovic. Are you familiar with
2 a person by that name?
3 A. Oh, that would probably have been the guy we called Mijo, I know
5 Q. And do you know Mijo to have operated as part of Milan Lukic's
6 group in June of 1992?
7 A. I never saw them together. I saw at the outset that I only say
8 Milan and the other people who were who escorted Tomic. They went to
9 various places, but I can't really speak about things I haven't seen and
10 things I don't know.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
11 Page 5090 redacted. Private session.
13 A. But only until 10.30 on the 14th.
14 Q. Were you dressed in a military or -- in a military uniform on
15 that day?
16 A. Yes, I was. Because I was waiting for the van to pick me up.
17 Q. And you were carrying an automatic weapon. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, I did, most certainly.
19 Q. How many times in the days preceding the 14th of June, did you
20 have occasion to visit Koritnik, if at all?
21 MR. ALARID: Objection, relevance.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Marcus.
23 MS. MARCUS: Yes, sir. It is part of the case. I think
24 explaining the relevance will be harmful to the evidence.
25 Q. In other words, if I were to say it, I would be testifying.
1 We'll see how it develops and perhaps Mr. Alarid can wait a few lines and
2 see where this goes.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
4 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
5 Q. Sir, let me ask you again. How many times in the days preceding
6 the 14th of June of 1992 did you have occasion to visit (redacted)
8 A. In June I didn't go to Koritnik at all. Only on the 6th of May I
9 was there to attend a festivity, and I didn't go there again until
10 August because I had didn't have an opportunity to go there, and that's
12 Q. Now there are a few other names I would like to ask you about, in
13 relation to this time-period that we're talking about.
14 Dusan Gavrilovic. Do you know this person?
15 A. Dusan Gavrilovic. I knew one, but he died. He -- there was a
16 guy by the name of Dusan Grujic, so maybe it is your mistake. But Dusan
17 Gavrilovic died before the war. But the other guy -- and he lived at the
18 entrance to the town, in a quarter called Kalate, but there was a
19 Dusan Grujic.
20 MS. MARCUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Okay, we can
21 return to open session. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 MS. MARCUS:
1 Q. Now this person you've just mentioned Dusan Grujic. Can you tell
2 us, if you know where he was on the 14th of June of 1992?
3 A. He was at home, and you didn't ask me so far, and with him -- it
4 was with him that the group from Koritnik came to my house, and he lived
5 some 30 metres away from me. And he said, my mother is sick. I have to
6 go home, and he left -- he returned home. That's how it was.
7 Q. So you confirm that Dusan Grujic visited Koritnik and walked with
8 the neighbours from Koritnik to your village. Is that correct?
12 MS. MARCUS: I think we will need a redaction of the mention of
13 the name.
14 Q. Now, sir, can you tell who else was with Dusan Grujic that you
15 know of who moved on Koritnik and walked with the neighbours from
16 Koritnik to your village.
17 A. Nobody but him. And the group of Muslims from Koritnik. Nobody
18 else, I'm sure.
19 Q. What about somebody named Radomir Djuric?
20 A. There is such a person. He is from the village of Loznica.
21 That's further away than Koritnik. It is it towards the Serbian border.
22 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Radomir Djuric having visited
23 Koritnik in the days before the 14th of June of 1992?
24 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.
25 Q. What about somebody named Dragomir Djuric?
1 A. There is no such man.
2 Q. And a man named Ilija Gavrilovic?
3 A. I know him. He is a police officer.
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge of him visiting the village of Koritnik
5 in the days prior to 14th of June 1992?
6 A. I don't understand that because he was in town for sure as a
7 police officer. And I don't know that he went to Koritnik.
8 Q. What about Radomir Grujic?
9 A. There is no such person. There -- Djuric, yes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
11 MR. CEPIC: My apologies for interrupting, just page 94, line 16
12 and 17, witness said reserve police officer. Thank you.
13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, again, I just wanted to request that
14 these kinds of translations, unless they require redactions, could be
15 submitted afterwards, just not to interrupt the evidence.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
17 MR. CEPIC: In relation to the words of my learned friend
18 Ms. Marcus, we have a huge problems with the transcript. We request
19 this, just for example, for this Honourable Trial Chamber, two months ago
20 we requested the redaction of some portion of transcript, and we
21 suggested to be use audiotape and videotape from the trial, and we've
22 been still waiting. So that is the reason why we always complain about
23 the transcript problems.
24 Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: That one was simple.
1 Let's proceed.
2 MS. MARCUS:
3 Q. Sir, on the day that your neighbours from Koritnik came to your
4 village, were you the only person in uniform an armed in your village at
5 the time?
6 A. There was only me. Everybody else was in civilian clothes. And
7 the people I mentioned before were guarding the village, and the younger
8 men were deployed out there in the field.
9 Q. So all tolled, approximately how many armed men were there in
10 your village on the day that your neighbours from Koritnik passed
12 A. On that day, there was nobody in my village that was armed
13 because all the able-bodied men were deployed in the field. And the
14 older men were guarding the village. They may have had hunting rifles or
15 something, but there were no armed -- armed men in the village.
16 Q. And your neighbours who came from Koritnik, none of them bore any
17 weapons nor were any of them wearing any uniforms. Isn't that correct?
18 A. The people from Koritnik that came to my house were all
20 Q. Who was it to your knowledge that suggested to that group that
21 they leave Koritnik?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know who told them nor why they left, only
23 when they came up to my house, they said that they wanted to wait for the
24 bus to take them to it Kladanj. But I don't know who told them to leave.
25 Q. So these were people whom you had known for a very long, your
1 close neighbours, as you said had you good relationships with them, and
2 yet when you saw them in a very large group come from your village to
3 your village, you didn't ask them, What happened, why -- why did you
4 leave your village?
5 A. I didn't ask them because they said that they were leaving and
6 they were asking me to come with them to Sase, but I didn't ask them why.
7 Q. Is it your evidence that you do not know who it was that told the
8 group from Koritnik to leave Koritnik? Is that your evidence?
9 A. Yes, exactly.
10 Q. Now, you testified, I believe, that they expected to meet some
11 buses in Sase. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, certainly.
13 Q. They were not under the impression that there would be buses for
14 them in your village, were they?
15 A. They weren't, no, only at Sase.
16 Q. So, in other words, when they came to your village and they met
17 you in your village, your evidence is that none of them asked you, Where
18 are the buses here? Is that right?
19 A. They -- they told me that the bus was waiting for me at Sase, and
20 that's why they asked me to come with them. I've said as much several
22 Q. Now, I think earlier you said that Radomir -- oh, no, it was
23 Dusan Grujic, I believe, that you said -- please give me one moment.
24 Yes, Dusan Grujic, you said, who accompanied them from Koritnik
25 to your village. Correct?
1 A. Yes, up to my house. All the way. And I said a short while ago
2 if you can go with him. I can't because I have to return my mother is on
3 her deathbed, and he immediately went back home.
4 Q. And did he provide you with any information which would explain
5 why these people had left their village?
6 MR. ALARID: Objection. Asked and answered.
7 MS. MARCUS: That specific question was not asked and answered.
8 I asked him whether the people, whether the villagers had told him. I
9 didn't ask him whether this guy had told him.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's have the answer, and then we'll adjourn.
11 MS. MARCUS:
12 Q. Sir, when Dusan Grujic came escorting your neighbours to your
13 village, did he tell you why they had left their village?
14 A. No, he didn't. I repeat once more, he did not. And I'm sure he
15 didn't know himself. And they told me that a bus was waiting for them to
16 tame them to Kladanj. That's how it was.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. We'll adjourn now until
18 tomorrow morning.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of March,
21 2009, at 9.00 a.m.