090305ED

Page 5101

1 July 1993.

2 Q. Now, you also -- you left Rujiste, you testified yesterday, to go

3 home briefly, just for a shower, from 4.00 p.m. on Saturday, the 13th of

4 June of 1992, until approximately 10.30 a.m. on Sunday, the 14th of June;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the rest of the time --

8 A. Yes, we had to return right away because there was a military

9 action at Sjemec and Kopito, and we had to return very soon.

10 Q. Now, the rest of the time, other than your days off, of course,

11 you were serving with the Rujiste Company in Rujiste. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you testified, also, that Milan Lukic's parents were staying

14 in a tent near your positions for safety in Rujiste; is that correct?

15 A. Everybody from the village of Rujiste, I can list them by name,

16 but there were two tents. One was next to a trench, and the other was

17 closer to us, and Mile and Kata were in the one that was closer to us.

18 Q. Now, so you described a conversation with Milan Lukic's parents

19 which you say took place on the 13th of June. Now, was that the only

20 time that you saw them in Rujiste, or did you see them more often than

21 that?

22 A. I saw them more often because they were -- they were near, in the

23 vicinity. They were always about.

24 Q. So to your knowledge in the first part of June, they never went

25 anywhere?

Page 5102

1 A. Nowhere.

2 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to ask for Exhibit ERN 0304-5351.

3 Q. Now, in just a moment, sir, I'm going to ask to you have a look

4 at the screen, and what we're trying to pull up here -- okay, what you

5 see before you, is this -- can you confirm that this is in fact the

6 statement which you gave to the lawyers for -- to Mr. Radomir Tanaskovic,

7 a lawyer from Visegrad, on the 8th of May --

8 A. Yes, correct. Yes. On the 8th of May, the 8th of May.

9 Q. And this is the 8th of May of the year 2000; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, presumably you stand by all the assertions you made in that

12 statement. Would you say that's correct?

13 A. Yes, I do. I stand up to my words, yes.

14 MS. MARCUS: I'd like to admit this statement under seal, please.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P255 under seal, Your Honours.

17 MS. MARCUS:

18 Q. Now, sir, yesterday when we were discussing -- when you were

19 discussing with the other attorneys your knowledge of the -- your

20 neighbors in Koritnik, you testified -- you said a couple of things I'd

21 like to just read back to you. I'll leave out the transcript references.

22 I have them if necessary, but because they're the temporary transcript, I

23 don't think it helps the record any to mention them, but I do have them

24 at hand if necessary.

25 You said when the people from Koritnik came to your gate, when

Page 5103

1 you were asked how many of them you knew or which ones you knew, you said

2 the following:

3 "There were some younger people whom I didn't know. I know them

4 only by sight."

5 Then a bit later on --

6 A. Yes, only by sight, but I know every -- all the older persons,

7 especially the men. I knew them all by name.

8 Q. So your evidence is that you knew all the older men by name and

9 some --

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And some of the others, you may have known either by sight or you

12 may not have known them at all; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. That goes for the women. I know the names of Apasa, Bula

14 and Mula. Bula wasn't her real name, but that's what they called her.

15 Actually, I did know her real name because I knew her personally and her

16 husband, too, but anyway.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, when we finished yesterday, you had just

18 testified that you did not know who it was who told your neighbors from

19 Koritnik to leave Koritnik; is that correct?

20 A. I didn't know that. I just know that they came to my house with

21 Dusan Grujic and then he returned home because his mother was ill, and he

22 asked me if I could accompany them further, and they asked me the same.

23 Q. I'm sorry, sir. May I just respectfully request that you limit

24 your answers because we're quite a bit under a time constraint.

25 So you testified that you did not visit Koritnik -- thank you.

Page 5104

1 A. All right.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. You testified that you did not visit Koritnik at

3 any time between the 6th of May, 1992, and August 1992; is that correct?

4 A. That is correct. I didn't. There was no opportunity to do so.

5 Q. So it is your evidence that you were not among a group of armed

6 Serb men who visited Koritnik in the days prior to the 14th of June,

7 1992, and told the Bosnian Muslims in that village to leave; is that

8 correct?

9 A. I most certainly wasn't. I told you already how it was.

10 Q. So to be specific, you did not visit Ramiza Kurspahic in her

11 house in Koritnik, ask her where her husband was and two other Bosniak

12 men, and tell her that her husband and the others had to go to Prelovo to

13 sign a paper agreeing to leave Koritnik? Is that your evidence?

14 MR. ALARID: Assuming facts not in evidence.

15 MS. MARCUS: I'm putting facts to him and asking him whether he

16 did or did not do that.

17 MR. ALARID: Lack of foundation, facts not in evidence.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't see the objection, Mr. Alarid.

19 Please answer the question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct.

21 MS. MARCUS:

22 Q. So you never went to Redzo Memisevic and Osman Kurspahic to

23 Prelovo so that they could sign a paper agreeing to leave Koritnik; is

24 that correct?

25 A. I never did that, I didn't go there, and I don't know whether the

Page 5105

1 people went to Prelovo at all. So that is not correct.

2 Q. So your evidence is that you were not aware that the residents of

3 Koritnik were asked to sign papers agreeing to leave; have I got it

4 right?

5 A. I didn't know about that. Nobody told me ever.

6 Q. Is there a bus stop along the main road in your village?

7 A. Yes, there is a stop. Sometimes the bus goes to Rujiste or all

8 the way to Kamenica, and there was a right bend to Koritnik, and many

9 people road on that bus, pupils, et cetera.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, when the Koritnik group left the village,

11 they left approximately 25 houses empty. Would you agree with that?

12 A. There weren't 25 Muslim houses in Koritnik. There were only 18.

13 When there was a census in 1991 or 1992, I participated in that census,

14 so we made an inventory of all the houses, but there weren't 25. That's

15 a lie, and I know every single house.

16 Q. So how many houses would you say were left empty in Koritnik when

17 the group -- when the villagers left?

18 A. As many as there were, 18 houses.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. But some people from the village stayed behind in the woods.

21 Q. Do you know what happened to the personal belongings of the

22 residents of Koritnik?

23 A. I don't know. I wasn't there. I was somewhere else altogether.

24 Q. Did any of your neighbors from Koritnik entrust you with their

25 house keys?

Page 5106

1 A. No, nobody.

2 Q. Now, in fact, you escorted these victims along the walk from your

3 village towards Visegrad to Sase; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And you testified that you were in camouflage and carrying an

6 automatic weapon; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Did you walk behind or in front of the column or somewhere in the

9 middle?

10 A. I was in the middle beside them.

11 Q. How long a walk is this, approximately?

12 A. From my house to Sase, the distance is two and a half kilometres.

13 Q. Now, presumably you spoke with them along the way, did you not?

14 A. Yes, we spoke.

15 Q. Yet the topic of their mass departure from their homes was not

16 discussed?

17 A. No, but they told me that they weren't to go to Kladanj until

18 things were resolved and then we'll see what they do. That's what they

19 told me.

20 Q. Now, when you arrived at Sase, there were other Serb armed men

21 there; isn't that true?

22 A. There were no other armed Serbs there. Only a car passed us by

23 there Vilina Vlas and two people got out, two people I didn't know. And

24 we also met some people I knew on the bridge. Do you want me to tell

25 what you we spoke about?

Page 5107

1 Q. In fact, I was going to ask you whether you inquired as to what

2 would become of this group of your neighbors from the armed men that you

3 met at the Sase junction.

4 A. Two police officers, reserve police officers were there on the

5 bridge, and another two people who came by car from Banja stopped there

6 and ask me, What are these people? And I said to them, Well, you can see

7 what's the matter, but you can't --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to repeat. We got

9 lost.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you're being asked to repeat what you

11 just said. Would you kindly do that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. When these men came

13 from Banja by car, they asked me who those people were, and I came with

14 these people to accompany them. They were waiting for a bus to go to

15 Kladanj. And he said, We have to take them away, and I said to them, No,

16 you can't do that, only over my dead body. And fortunately, there were

17 two other police officers there at the regular check-point because they

18 were changing shift, and they also backed me up and saying, You have

19 nothing to do with these people, you just go your way and let us go.

20 MS. MARCUS:

21 Q. Do you know the names of any of those armed men that you

22 encountered at Sase?

23 A. No, I don't know those people. I have never seen them. I don't

24 know their names.

25 Q. But your evidence is that they were reserve police officers?

Page 5108

1 A. No, no. Those people on the bridge were reserve police officers.

2 I knew them: Nedeljko Jovanovic and Boban Kargan.

3 Q. Your evidence is that you were not in contact with Milan Lukic at

4 all on that day. Have I got it right?

5 A. No, I didn't see him that day anywhere because on the 13th his

6 parents feared that he had gotten killed up there at Sjemec. No, I

7 didn't see him at all.

8 Q. And your evidence is that you were not in contact with

9 Sredoje Lukic at all on that day either; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. So neither you nor Dusan Grujic knew why the Koritnik group was

12 leaving their homes?

13 A. I told you yesterday and today, also, and I really don't know. I

14 just know that they came to my house accompanied by Dusan.

15 Q. Were you surprised to see all your neighbors come to your house?

16 A. So it wasn't pleasant to see them. I saw the people. Some were

17 crying, and I didn't know where they were going, so ...

18 Q. So in fact you knew that they were scared. In fact, you

19 testified yesterday that they said, please, please, by God, if you come

20 with us, if we run into some troops, nobody would touch us; and you told

21 them that you would go with them, but if you see a van taking troops to

22 the front-line, you'll have to leave them. So you actually knew that

23 they were quite, quite afraid of what would happen to them. Isn't that

24 right?

25 A. That is right. That's how it was, and they trusted in me because

Page 5109

1 if I had gone with them all the way to Kladanj, nothing would have

2 happened to them because that's what I was like.

3 Q. So did you do anything to inquire with the authorities as to what

4 was to become of the group?

5 A. No. I never went to see the authorities. I don't even know

6 where they had their facilities.

7 Q. Did you offer any of your neighbors the chance to stay in your

8 home?

9 A. No. I couldn't do that because you couldn't know what kind of

10 soldiers could come there, and my wife was alone at home, so I didn't

11 dare do that.

12 Q. So you knew, then, that these people were in danger, and you

13 feared that the danger that might befall them might also befall your

14 family; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what were they in danger of? Why were they in danger?

17 A. When they were with me, they had nothing to fear. There was no

18 other danger apart from those two from Banja, and nobody would have done

19 anything to them all the way to Sase because I was there.

20 Q. Sir, would the villagers have been safe staying in your village?

21 I believe you just said that in your home, you feared that not only would

22 they have been at risk but, also, then also your family would have been

23 at risk. So what were they at risk of?

24 A. Because I didn't know which soldiers could have come that way.

25 As far as me and my neighbors are concerned, they could have stayed there

Page 5110

1 throughout the war, but, you know, some other people may have come there.

2 Q. Sir, so is it your evidence that more than 30 of your neighbors

3 left their homes on foot during the armed conflict and that you did not

4 know why they were leaving?

5 A. I know that there weren't more than 30 because a number of men

6 stayed behind in the woods, and I know them all by name, and I told the

7 women, also, Don't tell anyone that your men stayed behind hiding in the

8 woods because some soldiers may come and mistreat you. There was

9 Amir Kurspahic and Mesa, his two sons, Dzemail's two sons, and two

10 others.

11 Q. Sir, in fact, you did know, didn't you, that the Bosnian Muslims

12 were being targeted in a campaign of ongoing ethnic cleansing in your

13 area, and that is why the Bosnian Muslims from Koritnik had to flee. You

14 did know that, didn't you?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.

16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, calls for legal conclusion. I believe

17 this is terms of art of the legal nature that -- [overlapping speakers]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. An objection has been raised,

19 and I need to consider it.

20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, and I think I finished the objection,

21 just that it calls for legal conclusion as to ethnic cleansing and all

22 this other stuff, so I think that that aspect is objectionable.

23 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is he got about that? It's a matter of

25 fact as far as I see it. Have you ever done adjudicated facts,

Page 5111

1 Mr. Ivetic?

2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I have, Your Honour. You know that quite well

3 in the other cases I've had with you, we've done adjudicated facts.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We've done adjudicated facts, yes.

5 MR. IVETIC: That's what I mean. It's a matter of legal term of

6 art.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't think it is at all. I think it's a

8 question of fact.

9 Let the witness answer the question.

10 MS. MARCUS:

11 Q. Sir, let me put the question to you again. In fact, you did

12 know, didn't you, that the Bosnian Muslims were being targeted in a

13 campaign of ongoing ethnic cleansing in your area, and that is why the

14 Bosnian Muslims from Koritnik had to flee. You did know that, didn't

15 you?

16 A. Probably that's why they left. They were most afraid when they

17 heard about the White Eagles, and they -- but they didn't have to fear

18 any of our villagers because nobody would have done anything to them.

19 Q. But you knew as you walked with them that at some point you were

20 going to leave them, and you knew that they might face some awful fate

21 thereafter; isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes, I feared that, but when they -- when I learned from the SUP

23 that they would proceed on foot, then I thought, well, let them go

24 and ...

25 Q. Now, both your statement, which we've just admitted, as well as

Page 5112

1 your testimony yesterday, you said that you didn't know what ultimately

2 happened to them, that you have no idea. So is it your evidence as you

3 sit here today that you do not know that the Bosniak civilians from

4 Koritnik were burned to death in a house on Pionirska Street shortly

5 after you escorted them out of Koritnik? Sorry, out of your village.

6 A. I never heard about that. I didn't know. I never heard that

7 from any one of our villagers or from a soldier. I'm sure that didn't

8 happen because whatever happens, you hear of it, and I never learned of

9 that.

10 Q. So you do not know that Milan and Sredoje Lukic are being accused

11 in the context of this trial with burning to death a large number of

12 Bosniak civilians, many of whom were your neighbors from Koritnik. Is

13 that your evidence?

14 A. That's not known to me. I haven't heard anything from anybody

15 about that. Milan was at Sjemec in combat action. I've repeated that

16 several times. He could have been. And I guarantee those people did not

17 know Milan and Milan did not know them, that group which came to Sase

18 with me. I can guarantee you with my life.

19 Q. Yesterday, you testified that you have good relations with some

20 of the survivors and that you socialised with one in particular just last

21 year, and you testified that: "There were talks that I was guilty of

22 something." What were people saying you were guilty of?

23 A. Yes. That I was also with them, and you know that I went back to

24 Rujiste. This is why I brought Mirsad to my home and asked him, and he

25 said, We know that it wasn't you, we don't know who wrote about that.

Page 5113

1 Mirsad told me that he didn't know anything about that.

2 Q. Now, Mr. MLD24, are you aware that there have been several steps

3 in the process of an investigation into your alleged criminal activities

4 in the domestic courts in your country? Are you aware of that?

5 A. I don't know that. It not known to me.

6 Q. So you're not aware that there are proceedings in terms of an

7 investigation directly relating to the expulsion of the Bosnian Muslim

8 citizens from Koritnik that you're testifying to now, that there's an

9 investigation in the state court as to these allegations. You're not

10 aware of that. Is that your evidence?

11 A. I don't know that for sure.

12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I think I can finish in less than

13 15 minutes. I'll aim for 10. Would that be acceptable?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, who contacted you about being a witness in this case?

17 A. You mean today, here?

18 Q. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

19 A. I was approached by this lawyer, and they asked me whether to

20 come, and I said I can come and say what I know. I cannot say anything

21 about I don't know.

22 Q. Now, who was the lawyer who contacted you?

23 A. Ivetic.

24 Q. So your first contact with the Defence team for Milan Lukic was

25 with Mr. Ivetic; is that what you're saying?

Page 5114

1 A. Yes, initially only with him, and it was over very quickly. It

2 started in December, and here I am in March.

3 Q. So the very first time you were interviewed for this case was in

4 December; is that your evidence?

5 A. I think it was in December, I believe -- well, for sure it was in

6 December.

7 Q. Now, sir, we've had a statement admitted for you, which you

8 signed. We referred to it earlier, and it's in connection -- it's not

9 the one from the Vasiljevic case of the year 2000. It's one that has a

10 date from 2008. Did you give a statement in connection with these

11 proceedings to the Defence team?

12 A. For Mitar Vasiljevic? No. No. Not at any later date. Only

13 that was my statement.

14 Q. Okay. I'm sorry to cause any confusion. In connection with this

15 case, the Lukic case, did you give a statement to the Defence team at any

16 time in the year 2008?

17 A. No. Only in December. When they asked me, I answered.

18 Q. So is it your evidence that you did not meet with anybody from

19 the Milan Lukic Defence team last summer?

20 A. In 2008?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. No. No. Just once, with this guy Ivetic.

23 Q. So you --

24 MS. MARCUS: I'm sorry. Can I have one moment, please?

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 5115

1 MS. MARCUS:

2 Q. Sorry, sir. Now, did you ever sign a statement for this Defence

3 team? Did you ever sign a statement of your evidence and give that

4 signed statement to the Defence team in this case?

5 A. I -- in connection with this case, I do not remember giving any

6 statement.

7 Q. So you did not sign a statement on the 24th of June of 2008?

8 A. Twenty -- no, it wasn't Ivetic. There was another lawyer,

9 Vladimir Rasic, I think, so there was two -- I was contacted by them two

10 years ago, and I gave a statement then.

11 Q. Okay, sir. So let me return. Perhaps I didn't ask it correctly.

12 There are a variety of members of the Milan Lukic Defence team, not only

13 those who were sitting in the courtroom, but they have other staff

14 working with them. So my question to you was, who -- when was the first

15 time -- yeah, so when was the first time that you were contacted? You've

16 just mentioned Vladimir Rasic. When was the first time that

17 Vladimir Rasic contacted you?

18 A. I think it was June, but two years ago. I cannot remember

19 exactly. This is the time when that Vladimir Rasic came to visit. I

20 gave a statement, and there is my signature, I think.

21 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Rasic meet with you one time or more than one

22 time?

23 A. Only once. He came, and on the next day we came to the

24 municipality to certify it, and then he took it and left, and he gave me

25 a copy.

Page 5120

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. As I was saying, sir, the Prosecution is making various

3 allegations against you relating to your effort to assist members of the

4 Kurspahic family that you have testified to. I have a simple question

5 for you. Would you agree to confront any member of the Kurspahic family

6 willing to accuse you face to face in this courtroom?

7 A. I'm ready to say this anywhere, in our court, domestic courts,

8 together with Mirza and his mother Esma. There are many other people

9 like Asim, but he's dead. I would dare to give this statement and to

10 confront them. They can say whatever they like, but I know how things

11 were, and I would say it like it was.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we could move along. With respect to

13 your change of the date of birth in the official records of where you

14 live, did you follow all the official administrative steps with the

15 relevant authorities in regards to that change of date of birth

16 information?

17 A. That's correct. We have the municipality; we have the courts; we

18 have the police; we have the registrar of birth, deaths. And if I didn't

19 go through a procedure, nobody would have been entitled to give me those

20 documents. That was correct. We have the police; we had the court; the

21 registrar's office; and the priest. I found this information up there in

22 the church. I -- 1.000 percent, I would not have been issued one of

23 those documents if everything was not okay because they would have lost

24 their jobs, any of them, if they had proceeded against the law.

25 Q. Thank you, sir.

Page 5121

1 MR. IVETIC: Now, if we can call up -- if we can call up

2 Exhibit P252, but I would ask that it not be published to the gallery or

3 to the public in so far as it contains the identifying information for

4 this witness.

5 Q. And once this document comes up, sir, this is the document that

6 the Prosecution used yesterday relating to your change of date of birth

7 request. Once the document comes up, I'll ask that we focus on the

8 signature of the official who signed and issued this certificate on the

9 bottom right-hand corner.

10 A. I can't see it. I know that it was issued at SUP, my identity

11 card and the court, and the registrar was Dragana Bozic. I remember at

12 the registrar's office and the municipality, the chief registrar was

13 Todo -- I can't recall his family name. He came from Sarajevo. He was a

14 refugee, and he could have stopped the whole proceedings had it not been

15 okay.

16 Q. Okay, sir. Now, I'm asking you to focus on what's on the screen

17 in front of you right now. This is the signature with the seal of the

18 official authorities of Visegrad, now I ask you based --

19 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Kos Ermin. Well, I don't

20 know him. I cannot tell you.

21 Q. The question I had is very simple. Based upon your knowledge of

22 the first and last names of individuals in Visegrad and in Bosnia, for

23 that matter, can you tell based upon the name Kos, Ermin that we see on

24 the screen what ethnicity this official of the legitimate authorities of

25 Visegrad who issued this certificate in the year 2000, and I believe it

Page 5122

1 was 1 or 2, what ethnicity would this individual be? Would he be Muslim,

2 Serb, or Croat?

3 A. Ermin Kos is a Muslim first and family name.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, we see here the seal that was issued on this

5 document. Can you make out what is the official seal of the government

6 authorities of Visegrad?

7 A. This is a very poor copy. I can't make out anything but Kos and

8 Naceknika or the head, and the family name. I do not have my spectacles.

9 Q. If we can zoom in more on the stamp, the stamp somewhere, do you

10 see the double-headed eagle in the official seal?

11 MS. MARCUS: Objection, leading. He just said he couldn't see

12 anything. Now you're telling him what he's supposed to see.

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, the document speaks for itself. It

14 was introduced by the counsel. I can't see how she can possibly say that

15 something that is readily apparent on the page is not something I can ask

16 questions about, to direct him to a particular part of the seal.

17 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I'm not sure that anything --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you should ask him, what does he see,

19 because you can't lead in re-examination, Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'm not leading. The document is

21 leading. The document that they introduced is the document I want to ask

22 him to compare that symbol to the other symbols he testified about.

23 That's what I want to ask him, so I have to direct him to a part of the

24 page.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have to ask him what he cease on it.

Page 5123

1 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

2 Q. What do you see on the seal, in the middle of the seal of this

3 official certificate from the authorities of Visegrad?

4 A. Believe me, I cannot see anything. I cannot make out any

5 letters. There's just a blotch.

6 MR. IVETIC: All the way back out, sorry, to the full document.

7 I thought there was another seal, but I could be mistaken. No, that's

8 the newest seal.

9 Let's try and zoom in on the top right corner, the other seal

10 that's in purple on here. Let's see if that one's better.

11 Q. Can you make out the seal, the part that's in the centre, the

12 emblem, in this stamp?

13 A. I can't see this either. I told you that my sight is poor. My

14 whole life I've been working close to an open fire, and this has weakened

15 my site. I can tell what you I see you, but I cannot make out anything

16 except that the colour is purple.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. IVETIC: And if we can -- we're done with this document.

19 Q. Let me ask you this: You asked about an eagle emblem in your

20 cross-examination. Could you tell me, what kind of emblem did the

21 official police forces of the Republika Srpska in Bosnia have on their

22 uniforms and on the hoods of their vehicles after the war, that is to

23 say, after the Dayton Accords all the way up until just this past year, I

24 believe, or it might have been a year and a half ago when they changed

25 it?

Page 5124

1 A. Well, during the war, I saw this eagle on sleeves and on caps.

2 That's what I know, and I don't know anything later. I'm not interested

3 in taking a look at those emblems on police vehicles when I come to town.

4 Of course they have the emblems of Republika Srpska, of course.

5 Q. And yesterday, the Prosecution repeatedly asked if named persons

6 were a part of Milan Lukic's group. Did you ever, yesterday, mean to say

7 that Milan Lukic had or was part of any paramilitary or criminal group?

8 MS. MARCUS: Objection, leading.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I permit that.

10 Answer it.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw any paramilitary. I

12 never heard about any such. I'm a hundred percent sure.

13 MR. IVETIC:

14 Q. And now the Prosecution asked you about the allegations against

15 Mr. Milan Lukic as to what they claim was a house burning to have

16 occurred in the Pionirska Street. Did you ever have occasion to hear

17 that Mitar Vasiljevic was alleged to have been involved in that purported

18 incident?

19 A. I never heard that either. I never heard about that house

20 burning. I didn't see it burning. I've been passing the

21 Pionirska Street and never noticed there were houses without roof tiles,

22 but nothing burnt. It would be difficult for a single building to be

23 burnt down because houses were close to one another, and everything else

24 would have been burnt down. In the town, there were no burning houses.

25 No Muslims, no Serb houses were burnt in the town of Visegrad, maybe in

Page 5125

1 the outlying area, somewhere else. I don't know.

2 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. IVETIC:

5 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to hear about any mishap that

6 Mitar Vasiljevic had relative to his health and well-being during 1992?

7 MS. MARCUS: Objection, beyond the scope of cross.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's beyond the scope. Next question.

9 MR. IVETIC: Sir, I thank you on behalf of the Defence of

10 Milan Lukic for coming here and testifying, and I wish you a safe return

11 back to your home, and please give my regards to your wife, and I hope

12 that she heals up from her injuries.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, we thank you for coming.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. If I can say a couple

16 of words. I don't want to --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, we don't allow witnesses to volunteer

18 statements. Witnesses come to answer questions.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, thank you.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... I want to

21 thank you for coming to give the evidence, and you may now leave.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, the next witness, Mr. Alarid, is ...

24 MR. ALARID: Private session, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.