1 Thursday, 2 April 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the absence of Judge Van Den Wyngaert, Judge
6 David and I sit pursuant it to the provisions of Rule 15 bis.
7 Just a few matters before we begin. On the 1st of April, the
8 Prosecution filed a motion for reconsideration of or in the alternative
9 certification to appeal the Chamber's decision of 25th March, 2009,
10 concerning rebuttal witnesses. The Chamber considers that expedited
11 responses are necessary and orders that any responses are to be filed by
13 The Chamber has reviewed the submission -- private session,
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 6589-6592 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the 20th of March, the Prosecution made an
7 oral request that the Chamber authorise the Registrar to provide the
8 Prosecution with photographs of Prosecution witnesses, the purpose being
9 to allow it to prepare a confidential exhibit for its cross-examination
10 of Milan
11 his own Defence; and therefore, the Chamber dismisses that request as
13 On the 18th of March, the Prosecution made an oral application
14 requesting the Chamber to amend schedule A of the indictment by removing
15 the names of alleged victims, Latifa Kurspahic, Lejla Kurspahic, and
16 Mejva Kurspahic. The Defence of Milan Lukic opposed the Prosecution's
17 application. The Chamber will defer its decision on the Prosecution's
18 application until after the close of evidence in this case.
19 I want to inform the parties that in the interest of time, the
20 Chamber has asked the VWS to assist in bringing --
21 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was just checking if this had to be in private
23 session. I wanted to say that in the interest of time, the Chamber has
24 asked the VWS to assist in bringing VG-61 to testify as a Defence
1 Let the witness be brought in.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in,
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Alarid. So we have to redact,
14 then, the discussion, the entire discussion. That's correct.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration. Please
17 make the declaration. Please read the declaration. The witness is
18 apparently not hearing me.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit.
22 Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 WITNESS: ZORAN USCUMLIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
2 Q. Good day, sir. As you know, I'm Dan Ivetic and I'm one of the
3 attorneys for Milan Lukic here today, and I have some questions to
4 discuss with you. I'd like to remind you at the outset that we ought to
5 speak at a measured pace to allow the transcript and the translators to
6 keep up with us. Is that fair, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. And also, our responses will need to be verbal so
9 that the transcript picks them up.
10 Now, to start with, can we please have your full name stated and
11 spelled for the record.
12 A. My name is Zoran Uscumlic. Zoran Uscumlic.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 MR. IVETIC: And before I get too far into this, Your Honours,
15 one document that we had intended to utilise with this witness somehow
16 became omitted from our list that we submitted the other day to the
17 Prosecution before -- we're not going to be using that document at the
18 beginning of the examination, but I'd like to let them know that 2D60 is
19 also a document that we will have the witness comment upon to give them
20 time to track that down and review it. It's another list from the police
21 station, horizontally.
22 Q. Now, sir, Mr. Uscumlic, could you tell us, sir, first of all, are
23 you here today in your personal capacity, or are you here in an official
25 A. I was summoned. I don't know in what capacity, but I was
1 summoned through the Ministry of the Interior. I don't know who summoned
3 Q. Okay. If you could confirm for us that your attendance today is
4 pursuant to a subpoena issued by this Trial Chamber?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And first of all, sir, so we can get it out of the way, do you in
7 fact know Milan Lukic; that is to say, are you friends or acquaintances
8 with Milan Lukic, and are you related to Milan Lukic?
9 A. I'm not related to Milan Lukic. We never met formally, but we do
10 know each other. We just know each other by sight.
11 Q. And could you tell us, first of all, what is your official
12 capacity, that is to say, what is the current position that you hold in
13 your employment?
14 A. I am the commander of the Visegrad police station, which is part
15 of the East Sarajevo Public Security Centre.
16 Q. Thank you, sir, and again, I'm pausing to allow the translation
17 into English and the transcript to catch up with us.
18 Could you summarise for us briefly the job duties and authorities
19 that you hold -- and authority that you hold as the commander of the
20 police station in Visegrad.
21 A. As the police station commander, I'm the number one person in the
22 police station; and our authorities, meaning the authority of the police
23 station, is to control crimes, public law and order, and all activities
24 in our jurisdiction that are covered by our area of responsibility as
25 well as any kind of citizen events.
1 Q. Okay. And with respect to -- you said that you were the number
2 one person in the police station. With respect to the current makeup and
3 structure of the police station, what has become of the position that
4 used to be known as chief of the police station?
5 A. Yes, the chief of police station post was abolished some three or
6 four years ago so that the police station commander, a uniformed
7 commander is the number one official of the police station. The post of
8 chief was considered a political function, and that is why it was
10 Q. And now, you indicated that you are currently the commander of
11 the Visegrad police station. How long have you held this position within
12 the Visegrad police station?
13 A. I was appointed to that post on the 15th of July, 2006.
14 Q. And now before that, could you tell us how long it is that you
15 have served as a professional policeman in the MUP, the Ministry of
17 A. As a police officer, from 1987, the first post I had was in the
18 public security centre in Gorazde. Then I worked at the public security
19 station in Gorazde. Then when the MUP broke apart, I became the
20 commander of the Gorazde police station.
21 Q. And now, 1987 to 2006 is a long time. Could you tell us what
22 position you held immediately prior to becoming the commander of the
23 police station in Visegrad?
24 A. Before that, I was commander of the police station Novo Gorazde
25 in Republika Srpska.
1 Q. And for the sake of your background, if you could just merely
2 explain to us from where -- where is it you were born and when were you
4 A. I was born on the 5th of May, 1962, in Gorazde.
5 Q. And could you detail for us briefly the circumstances around your
6 coming to be appointed to your current position as the commander of the
7 police station in Visegrad, whom it is you replaced, et cetera?
8 A. Well, I was appointed to that position of the commander of the
9 police station in Visegrad on the decision of the chief of the Public
10 Security Centre, East Sarajevo, Mr. Zoran Mandic. That was on the 15th
11 of July.
12 Q. And at the time that you became the police commander in Visegrad
13 by this -- I guess it was a decision or decree, who was the commander you
14 were replacing, and was that person present, or had they left that
15 position at some point in time prior?
16 A. When I came to the workplace of commander, the prior commander of
17 the police station was no longer there. There was only his deputy
18 because the commander had been assigned to new duties a year before in
19 the MUP of Banja Luka.
20 Q. Thank you. And now, if you could tell us a little bit about the
21 structure of the MUP, specifically the organ of the MUP that you belonged
22 to. What is the territorial jurisdiction that your police station
24 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just to interrupt just for a
25 foundational purpose. If we could at least specify the dates because the
1 witness is indicating there is a different structure to the MUP at
2 different times.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Sir, with respect to your current position and the current police
6 station that you are the head of, could you tell us what is the
7 territorial jurisdiction of that police station?
8 A. The area of Visegrad municipality, the entire Visegrad
9 municipality of 485 square metres -- sorry, kilometres.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are the dates, Mr. Ivetic? What are the
11 dates that this covers, to deal with Mr. Weber's point.
12 MR. IVETIC: I believe -- I thought I specified that, Your
13 Honour, but it looks like -- looking at the transcript that I had not.
14 Q. When you became commander of the police station in 2006, and from
15 that date forward, I presume you've been in that position, has the
16 territorial jurisdiction that you've just described remained the same?
17 A. Are you asking me when? Yes, on the 15th of July, 2006
18 Q. In terms of the time-period of 1992, that is to say during the
19 hostilities that erupted on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 within the SFRY, do you have knowledge of the makeup and structure of the
21 police, the Ministry of Interior at that point in time?
22 A. Well, the Ministry of Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina was
23 structured in such a way that there were five Security Services Centres.
24 Each Security Services Centre had a department of public and a department
25 of state security; and in each Security Services Centre, there existed
1 public security stations. That was the composition. We belonged to the
2 Security Services Centre of Gorazde, which had in its composition six
3 public security stations.
4 Q. And now, with respect to the territorial jurisdiction that your
5 police station now covers, do you have knowledge of what entity within
6 the MUP covered that same jurisdiction in 1992 during the course of the
7 -- of the war?
8 A. That territory was covered by the public security station of
9 Visegrad within the framework of the Security Services Centre of Gorazde.
10 Q. And have any other organs apart from your own police station
11 inherited the duties, responsibilities, and property of that security
12 service -- public security station of Visegrad?
13 A. I did not really understand this question. I don't know which
14 property you mean.
15 Q. Let's take a step back, first of all. Maybe we do need to talk
16 about the types of assets. Now, first of all, within the police station,
17 what types of identity documents or personal documents are kept in the
18 police station and/or issued by the police station in the course of your
19 ordinary practice?
20 MR. WEBER: Judge, sorry to interrupt, but it's going to be
21 important I believe that this witness's testimony dates -- whether he is
22 testifying as current knowledge or the manner in which the MUP operated
23 back in 1992. So I just please ask during the course of the testimony if
24 the witness could specify whether or not they were referring to their
25 current position and how records are currently kept or if he is
1 specifying as to how records were kept in 1992.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That should not be difficult.
3 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, I've been very conscious to use
4 the terminology from this time-period, which is police station. The
5 prior time period was public security station, so I've been very careful
6 to try to keep the witness on that.
7 Q. Perhaps, sir, in answering the question if you could also tell us
8 whether in fact the duties and obligations of the police in respect to
9 personal documents, if they have changed any from before the war to after
10 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say in the Republika Srpska?
11 A. Documents were issued exactly in the same way after the war until
12 the CIBC [as interpreted] project until now when documents are issued
13 completely differently.
14 Q. And when you say documents were issued in exactly the same way,
15 where were the records of these documents stored or kept?
16 A. Documents were issued to private persons and the files and other
17 documentation were kept in the archives.
18 Q. And with respect -- I apologise. We have to slow down a little
19 bit for the translation, I'm told. We have -- with respect to these
20 documents that were issued to private persons, and you say the files and
21 other documentation were kept in the archives. With respect to those
22 personal documents, where are those archives located?
23 A. If we are talking about IDs and other similar documents, there
24 were filing rooms, offices, manned by personnel, clerks in charge of IDs,
25 vehicle registration papers, and such.
1 Q. And with respect to those files and those archives, sir, do those
2 continue to exist to this day within your police station?
3 A. In our police station, there exists files for all the IDs that
4 have been issued.
5 Q. Okay. Just a few more questions to finish up on the hierarchy to
6 we can understand how your entity functions in its official capacity.
7 Within the hierarchy of the MUP, what body or organ does the
8 Visegrad police station fall under and report to directly?
9 A. The police station of Visegrad was an internal organisational
10 unit of the Ministry of the Interior. It is directly subordinated to the
11 Security Services Centre as an organisational unit of the MUP. In this
12 case, it's the Security Services Centre of Sarajevo, which itself is
13 subordinated to the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka, the head
15 Q. Now, with regard to the MUP of Republika Srpska, including
16 Visegrad and yourself, am I correct that personnel must meet certain
17 criteria and obtain certification, and could you detail for us what kind
18 of certification is required?
19 A. Well, every authorised officer must go through vetting and
20 certification. We, the older generation, were certified by the ITF [as
21 interpreted], and even nowadays, current officer candidates have to go
22 through the certification process at the MUP, again, regulated by the
24 Q. Sir, in your response you've mentioned twice the IPTF. For those
25 of us unfamiliar with this acronym, could you explain for us, what is the
2 A. It's the International Police Task Force that had been present in
3 our territory until the arrival of the European police. Their role was
4 -- is to supervise, to monitor, and to give suggestions for improvement
5 to all police stations.
6 Q. And have you had the occasion to cooperate with the international
7 police forces and/or the European police that have been overseers on the
8 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period following the
9 conclusion of the war?
10 A. All police stations were duty-bound to cooperate with them.
11 Later on, each police station even had an office housing representatives
12 of the IPTF who oversaw the daily work of managers and all the personnel
13 of the police station.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, in the course of your duties as commander of the
15 police station in Visegrad, have you had occasion to respond to requests
16 for assistance or requests for documentation from organs or parties
17 before this International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia?
18 A. Yes, those requests are very frequent, and with each of them we
19 provided an answer based on our documentation.
20 Q. And now, you've already told us about the personal documentation
21 that is stored at the police station as to residence or citizens. Can I
22 ask you to clarify for us what is the JMBG number, JMBG, and its
23 significance to citizens of the state?
24 A. JMBG is the unique citizens identification number which every
25 citizen of our state is issued with at birth, and that number follows him
1 throughout his life. There can be no duplicates of JMBG.
2 Q. Okay. You've anticipated my second question as to whether there
3 can be duplications. Now, with respect to the --
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to the requests from parties --
6 with respect to the parties that have sent requests for assistance to
7 your offices, how do those requests for assistance arrive to your
8 facility to be processed? Is there a procedure for that?
9 A. For the most part, RFAs would be forwarded by the Security
10 Services Centre of Sarajevo
11 sent our replies via the MUP, unless the request for assistance was
12 addressed directly to us.
13 Q. Thank you. And did you have occasion, sir, to receive a request
14 for assistance from myself and the Defence of Milan Lukic asking you to
15 search the records of the MUP and provide certain documentation?
16 A. Yes, I did receive the request to check certain persons on the
17 two lists that you've provided.
18 MR. IVETIC: And for the record, the two lists in question are
19 annexes A and B of the indictment. If we can call up 1D22-0800.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
21 Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: Judge, I would just ask this these lists not be
23 broadcast, prior to the transmission, just because of some of the names
24 on them.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be done.
1 MR. WEBER: That's fine, Your Honour. As a matter of fact --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. The court deputy will see to
4 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, just to be efficient. I don't know if
5 counsel plans on referring to specific names. If there's going to be
6 specific names referred to, the Prosecution would submit, then we can
7 just go into private session. If counsel is just going to be referring
8 to it generally for the purposes of foundation, we have no problem
9 staying in open session.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which is it, Mr. Ivetic?
11 MR. IVETIC: Waiting for the translation, Your Honour. We are
12 not going to be referring to names. We're seeking to admit this
13 document. It has been part of our bar table submission. I'm just laying
14 the foundation for the generation of this document, how it was produced,
15 based upon what review, and whether the witness has knowledge that might
16 assist the Trial Chamber in considering this document and the information
17 contained therein. I will be seeking to either admit the document after
18 that, but then I would already ask that this particular document be done
19 under seal because I note that it's not the redacted form that I would
20 need because there's one name that needs to be redacted, and I will, of
21 course, make sure a redacted copy is -- a public copy is provided at some
22 point in time, hopefully later today, with respect to that.
23 Q. Sir, we have a document now up on the screen. We have both the
24 English translation and the original Serb version on the right-hand side.
25 Do you recognise this document?
1 A. I recognise it. It's the document we sent to you.
2 Q. And with respect to this document, sir, if could you please just
3 highlight for us what you and/or those subordinate to you within the
4 police station did upon receipt of our request in order to generate this
5 document and the information that is contained within this document; and
6 again, without referring to specific names of persons who might be
7 mentioned in the document.
8 A. Well, you submitted to us a request containing a certain number
9 of names, around 70 names on the first list and around 10 on the second
10 list, and we were asked to run checks through the old manual database to
11 see if any of these names are on the old database. There was no unique
12 citizens number or the date of birth or any information on that list,
13 just name, surname, and approximate age. And based on that, I instructed
14 our officer in charge of IDs to look up the older database and take out
15 the files if she finds any, and she singled out certain files based on
16 which I made a list, and that list we are now seeing on the monitor. We
17 submitted, in other words, a list of persons with those names and
18 surnames. We are not sure they are exactly the same persons that are
19 meant on your list, but they have the names and surnames that correspond.
20 Q. And with respect to the list that I submitted to you for
21 processing in this manner, were there persons on that list for whom you
22 could not find the correlating original identification records within the
23 archives of the police station?
24 A. Yes. That's why we used these sequential numbers from your list.
25 We skipped the numbers we did not find matches for. If we did not find
1 any matches, we did not provide any information.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And with the assistance of the court
3 officials, I'd like to move to the second page of this document in --
4 well, in both languages, but the B/C/S is the most instructive.
5 Q. And sir, as you can see now, there is a -- if you could focus on
6 the signature. I'm sorry. The signature and the seal that is visible
7 here, sir, are those familiar to you?
8 A. Yes, that's my signature and the stamp of the police station of
10 Q. And looking at this document, can you vouch for this document
11 being the document that your police station generated in response to my
12 request for assistance?
13 A. Yes, I can confirm that. It's an original document.
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would move to admit this document --
15 this particular version under seal as the next available 1D Exhibit
16 number with, of course, a public redacted version to be provided, again,
17 hopefully some time today.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: I just wanted to confirm, is counsel moving in
20 1D22-0802 through 0803 -- I'm sorry, 0804, and then the corresponding
21 B/C/S version, which is -- the original, I believe, is 1D22-0800 through
23 MR. IVETIC: That is correct. That's how they are linked in
24 e-court, and that's how they're appearing on the screen.
25 MR. WEBER: Okay. As long as it's just those documents, no
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll admit it.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit 1D220 under seal, and the
4 public redacted version will become Exhibit 1D221.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Q. Did you have occasion, sir, to also to send the information that
7 you obtained back up the chain of command within the MUP?
8 A. Yes. Simultaneously with your request, a request came from the
9 MUP, that is from the centre for public security, and it was an identical
10 request to yours, so I submitted the same response to the MUP of
11 Republika Srpska.
12 Q. And now, if you could just focus for a second back on the records
13 that are your police station, these cards or archives; I think in Serbian
14 you said the word "kartons," "kartona." With respect to these items, you
15 indicated I believe that they were later supplemented by the CIPC system.
16 Could you tell us a little bit about the CIPC system? The C-I-P-C.
17 A. Well, that's an integrated system for the whole territory of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was launched in 2003. It's a unified database
19 for all citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Data is collected
20 individually in all police stations, and it is accessible to all police
21 stations in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
22 Q. Okay. And do you know or have you seen any additional
23 information or response generated by the higher organs in the MUP or
24 within the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina relating to the list that you
25 forwarded in response to my request for assistance?
1 A. No. I just responded to their letter with that document I
2 drafted, and there was no reaction.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you, when you became commander
4 of the police station in Visegrad, did you inherit any documents from the
5 previous holders of your office, that is to say, any other archives in
6 addition to the personal identity archives that you've already described
7 that were held in a separate office?
8 A. No. Unfortunately, those archives were missing when I took over.
9 For some reason, it's missing from the police station.
10 Q. What about any unofficial documents that -- were there any
11 unofficial documents that you discovered in the office when you moved in
12 as the commander of the police station in Visegrad?
13 A. In the safe which was in the office of the police station, I
14 found some documents from that period, the wartime period, and I actually
15 found only one list of the reserve and active police members that was
16 drafted in 1992. I found an unsigned list from 1992 from June, the list
17 of active and reserve members of the police force of the Visegrad public
18 security station. I also found a list from 2002, August 2002 on, and
19 these are order lists that exist still.
20 MR. IVETIC: And if we can have document -- actually, I think
21 it's Exhibit 2D60 on the screen. I believe this is the one that we've
22 seen in this trial previously.
23 Q. And in one moment, sir, on the screen, we'll get a document. Do
24 you recognise this document that is now appearing on the screen?
25 A. Yes. That is the list of the conscripts that participated in the
1 war who were -- had their wartime assignment in the public security
2 station in Visegrad for that period.
3 Q. Now, we see a stamp in the upper right-hand corner of this
4 document. Are you familiar with that stamp, and if so, what stamp is it,
5 and what time-period was it utilised during?
6 A. The stamp certifies the list which I signed. I was requested to
7 provide the list from the MUP, and they asked me to certify each page
8 that I copied with the stamp of the Visegrad police station, so this is
9 the police station of Visegrad stamp and my signature on every page.
10 Q. Now, you've not -- strike that.
11 You indicated, am I correct, that this is one of the documents
12 that you found in the safe in the commander's office when you assumed
13 that position in 2006?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge as to when this document was
16 created and for what purposes it was created?
17 A. Yes, at the end of the list there is the signature of the then
18 public security station chief, Dragan Nisic, who signed the list.
19 Q. And do you have any way of knowing whether this document was
20 prepared before or after the disappearance of the remaining archives of
21 the police station of Visegrad that you testified to earlier?
22 A. I can assume that the document was created at that time because
23 you can see there's a large number of conscripts from the reserve and
24 active police forces, and mostly people were on that list because they
25 wanted to claim some sort of benefits or implement some sort of rights.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down a little.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, you are being asked by the interpreter
3 to speak more slowly.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to this list that the -- if I'm
6 understanding you correctly, it appears to have been generated by persons
7 asking for their name to be put on the list. Is that an accurate -- am I
8 understanding you correctly?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER: Objection, calls for speculation as to what those
11 other people intended.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, do you know why those persons asked for
13 their names to be put on list?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that anyone asked to
15 be put on the list, individual people to be put on the list, but I think
16 that the members of the police or the chief of the public security
17 station at the time in Visegrad in order to make his work easier made
18 this list so that he could have a list in one place of all the military
19 conscripts who were in the war -- who were members of the public security
20 station in Visegrad during the war. I don't think that the list was
21 drafted at the request of individuals, but it was a decision of the
22 public security station chief.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Continue, Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. I'd like to ask you about some individuals. First of all, are
1 you familiar with a gentleman who was by the name of Dragan Tomic?
2 A. Yes, I knew him. I knew the late Dragan Tomic.
3 Q. And with respect to the time-period of the war during 1992, are
4 you familiar with what position Dragan Tomic held?
5 A. Dragan Tomic at the beginning of the war was the commander of the
6 Visegrad police station.
7 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to the fourth page of the list in
9 Q. Sir, this list is prepared somewhat alphabetically, and I'd ask
10 you to look at pages 4 and 5 under this list, under the Ts, and tell me
11 whether in fact the particular Dragan Tomic that you know as being the
12 commander of the Visegrad police station during the war, if he is listed
13 on this document.
14 A. I don't see his name on the list.
15 Q. And yet you are certain that he was, indeed, an official member
16 of the police station of Visegrad in 1992, the time-period that this list
17 purports to cover?
18 A. I'm sure that he was the commander of the police station. I
19 don't know why he is not on the list. Perhaps it's because he is no
20 longer alive. In any case, the Tomic who is on the list is not him.
21 MR. IVETIC: And for the sake of completeness, if we could have
22 page 5, as well, because I believe the Ts also go on to page 5, as well,
23 and just show that to the witness so he has a full opportunity to review
24 all the Ts because I believe there is another Tomic at 148.
25 Q. Is that individual listed as number 148 the Dragan Tomic that you
1 know to have been the commander of the police station in Visegrad in
3 A. No, no, definitely not.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir. I'm done with that document.
5 I'd like to now turn to some other documents that the Prosecution
6 has provided us relative to the Visegrad police station; and thus, I'd
7 like to call up P209 first, sir.
8 Q. Sir, we see a document that is now coming up on the screen. This
9 is the Prosecution's Exhibit 209 in this case. Is this a document that
10 you have seen in the course of your -- in the course of your duties as
11 commander of the police station of Visegrad?
12 A. I don't have this document at the police station. I can comment
13 on it, however.
14 Q. Fair enough. First of all, sir, can you tell us whether in fact
15 this document could have come from your police station; that is to say,
16 are you involved in every request for assistance and documentation that
17 is sent officially from the police station in Visegrad?
18 A. I assume that this is a document from the public security centre
19 because this is a salary list. It was probably sent from the police
20 station, but there isn't a copy of this document at the police station
21 right now, so probably this is from the public security centre.
22 Q. Thank you. And would that be the -- which -- where is that
23 public security centre located?
24 A. The public security centre in East Sarajevo, but in view of the
25 date, 1992, this was then under the jurisdiction of the Trebinje public
1 security centre.
2 Q. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to the last page and focus on the
4 signature and the stamp on the same.
5 Q. Sir, I'd like you to take a look at this section where this
6 document was signed and stamped. One moment. One moment, please.
7 With respect to -- with respect to, first of all, the stamp, do
8 you recognise this stamp as one that was authorised for use within the
9 MUP or ever used in the MUP officially?
10 A. Well, no. The stamp with these marks, at least as far as I know,
11 was never used. We never used any kind of stamp with the markings such
12 as the ones in the centre of this stamp.
13 Q. And with respect to --
14 MR. IVETIC: I think that document we are done with. P213, if we
15 can have that up on the screen, and if we could again go to the last page
16 of that document.
17 Q. I don't seem to have a print-out of that one, but I'd like to see
18 if that seal is the same as the one ...
19 A. It's the same stamp as in the previous document.
20 Q. Now, with respect to the -- you indicated, I believe -- you paid
21 particular attention to the markings in the centre of the stamp. For the
22 sake of clarity, which particular markings are you making reference to as
23 having not been part of the official stamps that were in use by the MUP?
24 A. The cross with the four Ss is what I mean, but it's very easy to
25 check what sort of a stamp was used. If you send it for analysis to the
1 MUP of the Republic of Serbia
2 could provide the best answer for this kind of thing.
3 Q. And am I to take it from your answer, then, that all official
4 stamps or seals in use of the MUP are registered in the central MUP
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
9 MR. WEBER: Again, if we could have some foundation as to when.
10 Currently? Back in 1992?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 Q. In the course of your entire employment, sir, with the MUP, what
14 has been the course, custom, and practice with respect to stamps and
15 seals used by organs of the MUP? Have they been registered with a
16 central body in the headquarters of the MUP?
17 A. All stamps would come directly from the MUP, and then they would
18 go through the centre of the public security, and they would come to the
19 police station or the public secure station. The old stamps would be
20 destroyed. A record of that would be made. A new stamp would be made.
21 There would be a commission to certify that such and such stamps were
22 destroyed. This report would be returned.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you say that was the practice in 1992?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot guarantee about 1992
25 because the situation was chaotic at that time, but -- yeah, I cannot
1 guarantee for that time.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. And for the stake of clarity, the gentleman whose signature is
4 listed on this document, Risto Perisic, are you familiar with that
5 individual and the position that he held within the MUP in 1992 in
7 A. Yes. That was the chief of the Visegrad public security station
8 in that time.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I think we're done with that document.
10 Q. I believe you mentioned two more documents that you had found in
11 the safe in the commander's office upon assuming that function.
12 MR. IVETIC: If we can have P214 up on the screen.
13 Q. And I'd ask you if you recognise, is this the list from June of
14 1992 that you had mentioned? The unsigned --
15 MR. IVETIC: If we could have the whole page up on the screen.
16 Yeah, there we go.
17 Q. I believe that -- and the bottom is unsigned. Is this the one
18 you mentioned, the unsigned list from June of 1992 that you found in your
20 A. No, that is not the list. The list -- this is a salary list.
21 What I found was just a list of names of members of the police force from
22 June 1992.
23 Q. And just for the record, we earlier talked about a Dragan Tomic.
24 If we can look at the entry at line 7 on this document, this Prosecution
25 Exhibit, it indicates Dragan Tomic, "kommandir stanice." Does that
1 comport with your recollection of the Dragan Tomic you talked about
2 earlier who was not on that master list?
3 A. Tomic Dragan is on this list, and that is the Tomic Dragan, the
4 commander of the police station, just as it says on the list. I think
5 that this list is authentic.
6 Q. Trying to locate the document that you mentioned.
7 MR. IVETIC: If we could have document P210 on the list. I
8 apologise. I'm not sure if that's the ...
9 It's a different document. Is that Exhibit P210?
10 Q. Sir, do you recall if the other document that you had found in
11 your safe, whether it was handwritten or typed?
12 A. Typed on a typewriter.
13 Q. So is this one of the documents that you found in the safe when
14 you inherited the office?
15 A. No, no. It was just a classic list of members, and it didn't say
16 police, but "militia," "militia," on the list, and there were no numbers.
17 Q. I think you've already clarified for us the extent of the
18 documents that you discovered upon -- upon becoming the commander of the
19 police station in Visegrad.
20 MR. IVETIC: Sir, at this time, I have no further questions for
21 you. I thank you for your time and your assistance in this matter
22 clarifying some documents.
23 Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for
25 overlooking you, Mr. Cepic.
1 MR. CEPIC: I apologise, Your Honour. With your leave, I just
2 have a few questions for the questions for this witness, with your leave.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you are perfectly entitled, Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. WEBER: And I apologise, I didn't mean to jump up.
6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Uscumlic, I'm Djuro Cepic. I'm the lawyer
9 of -- or attorney for Mr. Sredoje Lukic, and I only have a few questions
10 for you.
11 The first question is, am I correct if I were to say that in view
12 of your important police work experience and the fact that during the war
13 you were also carrying out police duties, am I correct if I say that a
14 policeman cannot be a member of the army at the same time?
15 A. Well, as long as he is a police officer, he cannot be a member of
16 the army also.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. CEPIC: Could we have on our screens Exhibit 2D60, please.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, his answer was as long as he is a
20 police officer, he cannot be a member of the army also. But the question
21 that was put in English was, is it correct to say that a policeman cannot
22 be a member of the army. Is there any distinction between a policeman
23 and a police officer?
24 MR. CEPIC: In our country, it is the same meaning, but I will
25 clarify with a question, Your Honour, with your leave.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, because of the English translation, perhaps
2 there can be some things that are unclear. I would just like to clarify
3 something. A police officer or just a regular policeman in the war,
4 could either of them be members of the army in any sense?
5 A. No, they cannot be a member of the army. Thank you. Thank you.
6 MR. CEPIC: I hope that I clarified --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Go ahead, please.
8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this document in front of us, did I
10 understand you correctly that you confirmed the authenticity of this
11 document; it's an authentic document that was created in the course of
12 the work of the police station and which you found in the safe?
13 A. Yes, that is the document that I did find in the police station.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. CEPIC: Could we have the last page, please.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Would you agree with me that this stamp at the
17 bottom as well as the name and the signature and the title are authentic
18 and belong to the former chief, Dragan Nisic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. CEPIC: Could we have P209, please. Could we leave in that
22 form, please.
23 Q. [Interpretation] The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of
24 the Interior public security station Trebinje, you would agree with me
25 that that was the form at that time and that place and that that document
1 ought to be authentic?
2 A. Well, this is the list that I talked about earlier which I found
3 in the police station. That is that list.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Uscumlic.
5 [In English] I have just 30 seconds to consult with my client,
6 please. Thank you.
7 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
8 MR. CEPIC:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Uscumlic, one last question for you. At the
10 time the name of the Serbian entity within Bosnia-Herzegovina was Srpska
11 Republika Bosnia and Herzegovina, and later it was changed to Republika
12 Srpska; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] thank you very much. I have no
15 further questions for you, thank you very much.
16 [In English] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber, we will take the break now, so when
19 we resume you can begin your cross-examination. We are adjourned.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
25 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Adam Weber from the Office of
1 the Prosecutor, and I'll be asking you some questions here today. I'd
2 like to start out by asking you just a couple of particular questions
3 about your career as a police officer. I'm not going to spend too much
4 time on this as you've already provided many of these answers.
6 Sir, you began your career with the Gorazde SJB in March of 1987;
7 is that correct?
8 A. No, 16 March 1987
9 Q. Thank you, sir. You were promoted to the commander of the
10 Gorazde SJB in January of 1990; correct?
11 A. I don't know the exact date, but you are probably right.
12 Q. Is that a correct approximate date in 1990?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In June of 1992, you were still the commander of the Gorazde SJB;
15 is that correct?
16 A. June 1992.
17 Q. That's correct, sir, in June of 1992.
18 A. No. By that time, I was already a member of the MUP of
19 Republika Srpska.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the court officer please call up F120-2092 for
21 the witness. I apologise, that's FI20-2092.
22 Q. Sir, can you see the document in front of you?
23 A. Yes, I can see it.
24 Q. This is the list of active police employees at the Gorazde SJB in
25 June of 1992; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you recognise this document as an official document; is that
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. This document is similar to the documents which you were
6 previously shown from the Visegrad SJB on direct examination?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In June of 1992, there were approximately -- according to this,
9 there were 33 active members of the Gorazde SJB; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Your name appears on this list as number 3; is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. It indicates that you were the commander of the SJB in Gorazde;
15 A. It says commander of the police station. It reads commander of
16 the public security station, but in fact it should be commander of the
17 police station, PS. It's probably a typo.
18 Q. Thank you, sir.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would
20 tender this as an Exhibit.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P315, Your Honours.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Sir, you remained the commander of the Gorazde SJB until May of
25 1995 when you were promoted to then the position of chief; is that
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And you remained the chief of the Gorazde SJB until February of
4 2003 when that position was abolished, and then you were re-assigned as a
5 commander; is that correct?
6 A. Correct. I don't know the exact dates, but that's correct.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I've had the occasion to speak with Mr.
8 Ivetic during the break. I believe that we can expedite this. The
9 Prosecution at this time would tender into evidence 0645-8089.
10 MR. IVETIC: That being the decision to appoint this general into
11 the post that he testified to, we stipulate.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P316, Your Honours.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Based on your 22 years of experience in command positions, you
16 are familiar with the reports that are regularly sent from the SJB level
17 to the MUP; is that correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution have 65 ter --
20 Prosecution 65 ter 28.
21 Q. Sir, can you see the document before you?
22 A. I can see that.
23 Q. Sir, you are familiar based on your command experience with the
24 police during the war with the types of documents that were sent from the
25 SJB to the MUP during 1992; correct?
1 A. For the most part.
2 Q. This is -- this is an official report to the Ministry of the
3 Interior reporting on the military and security situation in the Serbian
4 territory of Visegrad --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. WEBER: Judge, I haven't even finished asking the question.
7 If I could ask the question and then --
8 MR. IVETIC: That's fine. I'll wait --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, although in the practice to which I'm
10 familiar, once counsel gets up, the other one stops. But go ahead.
11 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. Sir, this is an official report to the Ministry of the Interior
15 reporting on the military and security situation in the Serbian territory
16 of Visegrad dated 13 July 1992
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the objection I have is that the
18 counsel is testifying as to facts not in evidence; lack of foundation and
19 speculation as to how this can be claimed to be an official report to
20 this witness.
21 MR. WEBER: Judge, I cannot respond based on Mr. Ivetic's
22 statement already. I'm in the course of laying the foundation. It's
23 cross-examination, so I can lead the witness.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's nothing improper in this line of
25 questioning. Please continue.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Sir, I'll re-ask my question. This is an official report to the
3 Ministry of the Interior reporting on the military and security situation
4 in the Serbian territory of Visegrad
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, again, the witness I don't think -- if
6 he has personal knowledge, if that's the question.
7 MR. WEBER: Judge, I'm asking --
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have already ruled. Please don't rise again
9 for the same point.
10 Now go ahead.
11 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, do you understand my question, or would you like me to
13 repeat it?
14 A. I can answer the question, although I didn't read the text
15 through, but the text I don't think is as important as the form.
16 Q. And this form is an official form that was used in 1992 within
17 the Ministry of the Interior; correct?
18 A. Yes, but the manner of transmission is not regular. The centre
19 of public security Trebinje was passed over here. It's not logical that
20 this should be sent directly to the MUP.
21 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention on the top portion on that
22 page on the right-hand side. There is an indication that this document
23 is an official secret strictly confidential document to be -- by courier;
24 is that correct?
25 A. That's how it reads.
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this
2 document into evidence based on the fact that the witness has already
3 stated that this -- the form of this document is consistent with the
4 official form used at the time.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would object so far as his testimony
7 at page 38, line 16 through 18 specifically denotes a problem with this
8 document that the manner of transmission, i.e., the purported recipient
9 and the purported sending party is improper in his opinion and,
10 therefore, is irregular, so he cannot vouch for the authenticity of this
11 document based upon that evidence.
12 MR. WEBER: Judge, that goes to the weight, not the admissibility
13 of this document. It's been noted for the record that. He's indicated
14 that this an official form.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we'll admit it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P317, Your Honours.
17 MR. WEBER: If the court officer could please place page 4 of the
18 B/C/S version and page 6 of the translation on the screen. It will be
19 referred to momentarily.
20 Q. Mr. Uscumlic, out of the 22 years that you have been a police
21 officer, 19 years have been with the police forces in Gorazde; is that
23 A. Part of it in Gorazde, but when Gorazde was divided into a part
24 that belonged to Republika Srpska and a part that fell under the
25 Federation, I spent until 1992, the part that belonged to Gorazde and the
1 rest of it in Republika Srpska.
2 Q. I understand what you're saying. What I'm asking, though, is
3 prior to 2006 when you took your current post in Visegrad, you did not
4 work at all within the Visegrad municipality; is that correct?
5 A. There was a period after I left Gorazde in September, maybe even
6 part of October, we were on record as members. Some of policemen from
7 Gorazde were registered as members of the police of Visegrad.
8 Q. Could you please define exactly when that period was?
9 A. Early September, but I can't give you the exact date, and until
10 the exiled municipality of Gorazde
11 Q. Sir, if you could please inform us of the year.
12 A. 1992. September 1992.
13 Q. You were not in Visegrad in May or June 1992?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You did not work in the Visegrad SJB throughout the entire course
16 of 1992?
17 A. I'm telling you, I was working there in September.
18 Q. Okay. Prior to September 1992, you did not work in the Visegrad
19 SJB; correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You did not see if Bosnian Muslims were beaten or killed by
22 members of the police and the reserve military conscripts at the Visegrad
23 SJB between March and August 1992?
24 A. No. As I said, I wasn't there.
25 Q. You do not know how many police officers were regularly appearing
1 for work at the Visegrad SJB between March and August 1992?
2 A. No.
3 MR. WEBER: If we could please call up the exhibit that we just
4 referenced, P317.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber, Mr. Ivetic utilised 56 minutes for
6 his examination-in-chief.
7 MR. WEBER: I'm not going to take that time.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.
9 MR. WEBER: Actually, for Exhibit P317, if we could please have
10 the bottom of the first page of the exhibit, which is page 2 of the
11 translation. I'm sorry.
12 Q. Sir, can you see the document in front of you?
13 A. Yes, I see it.
14 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the last paragraph on page 1
15 of the document in front of you. The report states:
16 "After the withdrawal of the Uzice Corps whose units entered and
17 liberate the central area of town, there was a general mobilisation of
18 military conscripts in the municipality area, and work obligation was
19 introduced for everyone capable of working ..."
20 Could we please continue on page 2 of the B/C/S version.
21 "... with the goal of keeping and expanding the liberated area,
22 which was achieved. Parallel with these activities establishing the army
23 of the Serbian Republic
24 Serbian Republic
25 municipality, under the command of ..."
1 And in the translation could we please turn to the top of page 3.
2 "... Captain 1st Class Vinko Pandurevic, an active-duty officer
3 of the JNA Yugoslav People's Army, while all other officers and soldiers
4 in the brigade are reserve military conscripts from the area of the
5 Serbian Municipality
6 Is that what that report states?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the document speaks for itself. The
10 witness has already testified in response to Mr. Weber's questions that
11 he was not present in Visegrad during the time-period of this report and
12 the time-period of the events that are being specified in this report, so
13 in essence we're having Mr. Weber trying to introduce this, which I would
14 call a written statement of Risto Perisic in contravention of the rules
15 of this Tribunal, Your Honour. So I would object to this manner of
16 trying to authenticate this document with an individual who has already
17 said he has no personal knowledge of the facts that are contained
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could please respond.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. WEBER: This document is in evidence, the 65 ter summary said
22 that this witness would come and speak to the events of the police in
23 relation to Milan Lukic and his status as a reservist in the police at
24 the time. This is relevant to that.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The document is already in evidence?
1 MR. WEBER: Correct, Your Honour. You admitted it as P317.
2 MR. ALARID: Yes, Your Honour. You just admitted it without
3 foundation, and that's the -- that was the objection, was lack of
4 foundation because this is a document that he had never seen before, and
5 all he could say was it was irregular on its face, but he said it was
6 irregular because these kind of documents were never transmitted as this
7 document stated. Therefore, it does not appear regular, and it is a
8 statement of Mr. Perisic where they're attempting to get in through
9 improper witness.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's a question of weight, Mr. Alarid.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Sir, is this what the document states? That's all I'm asking you
13 right now. I'm not asking you to opine on it at all.
14 A. That's what the document says.
15 Q. You've mentioned that you recognise Milan Lukic by sight and that
16 you were present in the Visegrad municipality during 1992. Are you aware
17 that there's evidence in this case that Milan Lukic was a commander in
18 this brigade that's referred to as of the 19th of May, 1992? And for the
19 record, it's Exhibit P314 that's being referred to. Are you aware of
20 that, sir?
21 A. You mean this brigade, the name of which you've just read out?
22 Q. I'm asking you your personal knowledge, if you are personally
23 aware, aside from this document, of whether or not Milan Lukic was the
24 commander of the brigade that's referenced in this document.
25 A. I haven't seen any reference to Milan Lukic in this document. I
1 don't know.
2 Q. I am asking, sir, are you aware? Is that a no, you are saying
3 that you don't know if Milan Lukic was commander or not in that brigade?
4 A. I don't know.
5 MR. WEBER: Could we please have page 3 of the B/C/S version of
6 this exhibit, and page 4 of the translation.
7 Q. Sir, I'm going to read you another portion of this document and
8 then ask you questions based off of it. I'm just going to ask you if the
9 document states what it does.
10 MR. ALARID: Your Honour, objection. This witness is not brought
11 as a verification of the translation. I think this is improper
12 questioning of this witness. He either has a question or he doesn't.
13 But to have him read the statement into the record and verify as to
14 translation is improper.
15 MR. WEBER: That's not what I'm doing, Judge.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you doing, Mr. Weber?
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I can make a proffer. At this
18 portion, the document refers to the number of policemen that were in the
19 Visegrad SJB at the time. I would like to read him that portion and ask
20 him if that's consistent with his understanding of the level of personnel
21 in that unit, then secondly refers to disciplinary problems within that
22 police department.
23 MR. IVETIC: And Your Honours, I submit to you that he have to
24 have foundation for his knowledge of the personnel in the unit or in the
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Lay that foundation, and then you can ask
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Well, sir, you were just shown a number of documents relating to
5 the personnel in the Visegrad SJB from June 1990 through -- all the way
6 through 1996; is that correct?
7 A. You mean these earlier documents, yes.
8 Q. Yes. And you were able to look at those documents, and you
9 answered the questions of both Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Cepic relating to the
10 personnel that was were in the Visegrad SJB between, actually, 1991 and
11 1996; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This document states:
14 "Pursuant to the directives, the reserve police forces of the
15 police station which numbered 150 policemen when the station began
16 operating were reduced to 40 policemen, taking the criteria which were
17 provided in selecting personnel for work in the police into
18 consideration. However, significant deficiencies and difficulties
19 continue to be present in the consistent performance of duties from their
20 jurisdiction. Apart from general shortcomings, which are a reflection of
21 the war ..." then it lists: "The shortcomings are evident as well as we
22 think and suggest should be resolved by exchanging personnel, that is to
23 say transferring them to work in other public security stations."
24 Sir, you were asked some questions by the Defence attorney of Mr.
25 Sredoje Lukic. You said that once people are in the police, they are not
1 part of the military. Isn't it in fact true that people moved from the
2 police to different police stations during the course of war, and, also,
3 at times people from the police department worked with the militia during
4 the war.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'd only ask for clarification.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's do one question at a time. Is it true
7 that people moved from the police to different police stations during the
8 course of war? What is your answer to that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I know of, at least not
10 during the state of war. I don't know that policemen moved to other
11 police stations, unless perhaps it was a disciplinary measure or a
12 minister or a chief of some police station made a decision to move one
13 person to a different police station.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the state of war had no effect on the
15 movement of police, the different police stations? They remained -- the
16 fact that there was a war made no difference?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. The second question was, is it true that
19 at times people from the police department worked with the militia during
20 the war?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is not clear. You
22 said militia. You probably meant the army.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. That's correct, sir. The intended question is the army.
1 A. A policeman could not be a member of the army at the same time.
2 He had to finish his work in the police in order to become officially a
3 member of the army, if that's what you mean.
4 Q. Sir, that was not my question. My question is whether or not in
5 the performance of their security duties, did police officers work with
6 members of the army during the war?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Sir, since you did later come to the Visegrad SJB in 1992, I'd
9 like to ask you about disciplinary problems within that SUP. P317 states
10 that a special problem --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute. Mr. Cepic.
12 MR. CEPIC: I think that my learned friends for OTP already filed
13 a motion related to some disciplinary documents, and we filed the
14 response to the documents, and that is still in procedure. So if my
15 colleague Mr. Weber trying to ask questions related to those -- to that
16 procedure, I think that we already has been discussing in the filing
17 form. Secondly, this witness is -- was not the disciplinary judge, and
18 he could not provide us that material or informations.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, we don't know yet, Mr. Cepic, whether the
21 witness is able to provide information. What is this about a motion
22 having been filed? Are you saying that the question that has been asked
23 relates to a motion that has been filed and which has not yet been
24 disposed of?
25 MR. CEPIC: I found a list of exhibits for potential use with
1 this witness from OTP, and they put on that list documents for
2 disciplinary record of my client. And if Prosecutor is trying to ask any
3 question related to that file, I would like just to remind that they
4 filed a couple of days ago motion -- bar table motion with a request for
5 admission of those documents. We responded on Monday related to that
6 material, to that OTP motion, and it is still pending.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
8 MR. WEBER: Mr. Cepic is correct. There is a pending bar table
9 motion. However, Mr. Cepic's objection is one that goes to the
10 authenticity of the documents. We have a witness here who could
11 potentially authenticate them live, present in court. Prosecution would
12 like to make use of that time to authenticate the documents with the
14 MR. CEPIC: I would like to remind my learned friend to read
15 carefully our response, and we added something which is not disclosed to
16 us. We added some -- but we filed everything. I don't want to spend
17 this time to discuss about something which we already filed, Your Honour.
18 Everything is in hard copy. Everything is on the paper.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but what is to prevent the Chamber dealing
20 with it now? Do you know in the jurisdiction from which I come, we don't
21 have this business of filing motions. You get up in court, and you make
22 your submission, and the Judge rules on it. Personally speaking, I find
23 the filing of motions to be quite time-wasting. Too many motions are
24 filed. So let us hear what is your objection, and let us see whether we
25 can deal with it now, and we hear from Mr. Weber. What is your point?
1 MR. CEPIC: This witness cannot -- I'm sorry, is it my turn, Your
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you. This witness cannot provide us any
5 relevant information about disciplinary procedures. That is my point.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I haven't been afforded the opportunity
7 to ask this witness what his knowledge is.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. Sorry, I didn't hear your reply.
11 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution hasn't had the opportunity yet to ask
12 this witness what his knowledge would be to authenticate the records. We
13 haven't gotten to that stuff yet.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, go ahead, and if you are getting to that
15 step, make sure that you lay a foundation.
16 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, it is important to have discipline amongst the officers who
18 are under your command. You would agree with that; correct?
19 A. Yes, of course.
20 Q. You would not consider an officer who steals property or refuses
21 orders of his superiors to be a good or reputable officer, would you?
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
23 MR. CEPIC: I think that these questions are leading us in
24 completely different way. I will clarify.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sit. I agree with you, Mr. Cepic.
1 You haven't established any basis for this witness to provide
2 that kind of evidence.
3 MR. WEBER: If I may proceed, Your Honour.
4 Q. As a commander, you are familiar with the disciplinary procedures
5 and records for police officers within the SJB; correct?
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, he has to specify which SJB. There are
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the SJB?
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Within the -- well, sir, you've testified in multiple different
12 levels within the Ministry of Interior; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at the lowest level is the police station; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when I refer to SJB, do you understand that to mean that I'm
17 referring to the lower levels of the Ministry of Interior?
18 A. At that time, these were not the lowest levels, the public
19 security stations, but now they have been abolished, so now they were
20 only -- there are only four public security stations in the MUP.
21 Q. And you're familiar with the disciplinary records and procedures
22 from 1992 onwards that were of use in the security stations with the MUP;
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the court officer please call up ERN 0645-2835
1 through 0645-2836.
2 Q. Sir, can you see the document in front of you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Sir, you recognise this as an official request to institute
5 disciplinary proceedings dated 20 August 1992; correct?
6 A. Yes. More or less, that's what it looks like in the request.
7 Q. Well, you recognise the form of this document as the official
8 form used in relation to the disciplinary proceedings; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The subject of this request is Sredoje Lukic; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the item numbers in this
13 request, which are in the middle of the page of the B/C/S version.
14 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: I have to object. This witness clearly said that he
17 came in September 1992 in police station of Visegrad, so he cannot
18 provide us any relevant information for previous period. Secondly, I
19 must underline that in the record. From OTP, we have obstruction in
20 relation to disclosure material several times. We requested many times,
21 and we filed that in a motion, to provide us with all material. We
22 didn't receive clear answers, and we clearly -- our position is clear in
23 relation to this request. If they got decision from disciplinary
24 procedure, we would be very grateful to see that decision on the screens.
25 The request doesn't mean anything without decision.
1 MR. WEBER: Judge, this is just a -- Your Honours, this is the
2 first -- [French on English channel]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, start again.
4 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Your Honour, this is the
5 first in a sequence of documents. I believe Mr. Cepic has the
6 opportunity to submit additional documents that he might feel are
7 relevant in relation to this matter. He has requested alternative relief
8 in that circumstance, and his response, I would note for the Chamber,
9 that this witness -- the 65 ter summary says the witness is the current
10 commander of the Visegrad police. He will testify as to the official
11 documentation from the Visegrad police station and the manner of
12 record-keeping. This witness will testify as to the manner of operation
13 and functioning of the SJB Visegrad. He has clearly been brought here
14 and Mr. Cepic has been put on notice in relation to this individual's
15 testimony. We are asking him about documents which he has clearly
16 indicated he is familiar with.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic says that he only arrived at the
18 police station in September 1992, and this document relates to August.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, Mr. Cepic has noted, this is the first
20 in a sequence of documents. The later ones will carry over there.
21 However, the Prosecution would note that that is in the context of this
22 witness already saying that he is familiar with this document, that's
23 it's in the official form, that he recognizes it, that he's got over 20
24 years of experience in being familiar with the disciplinary procedures of
25 the Security Services Centre. So I believe this witness has sufficient
1 ability to authenticate the document and actually as of now already has
2 authenticated the document.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
4 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, with your leave, this witness cannot
5 provide us any relevant information from this document and from other
6 documents which Prosecutor intend to show us.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why not if he has familiarity with the kind of
8 document that this one is?
9 MR. CEPIC: Prosecutor did not try to establish that is this
10 witness familiar with this informations and with -- this simply not a
11 record of Sredoje Lukic. I think that he firstly has to establish that.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Proceed, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this exhibit at this
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P318, Your Honours.
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I would like to note that there is
19 actually two versions that we prepared in relation to the document since
20 it does have a sensitive name, and we'd ask that the unredacted version
21 be admitted under seal and the redacted version be also admitted. I
22 apologise for not mentioning that upfront. If we could please not have
23 this broadcast to the public too.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: In this case, Your Honours, Exhibit P318 is under
1 seal, and the redacted version is Exhibit P319.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Sir, in this document item number 1 indicates that
4 Mr. Sredoje Lukic appropriated a motor vehicle --
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
6 Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: Could Prosecutor establish any knowledge of this
8 witness related to any information related to Sredoje Lukic from
9 disciplinary procedure against him?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've already admitted the document, Mr. Cepic.
11 You may raise that in re-examination.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Sir, this document indicates that Sredoje Lukic misappropriated a
14 motor vehicle under item 1, exceeded his official powers under item
15 number 3, and refused to obey legal orders of the chief and commander of
16 the Visegrad SJB under item number 5. My question to you is based on
17 your --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is item number 5?
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. That's on page 2 of the
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Can we see page 2. Yes. Proceed.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Sir, in your significant experience as a commander in the
24 security services, you would not consider an officer who steals property
25 or refuses orders of the superiors to be a good or reputable officer,
1 would you?
2 A. First of all, I would like to say that this is the first time
3 that I'm seeing this document, so I can speak generally about policemen,
4 but I cannot say anything about this specific matter.
5 If you are asking me if a policeman were to do something as it is
6 stated here, probably I would also initiate disciplinary proceedings
7 against such a policeman. But as I said, I'm seeing this document for
8 the first time. I have never seen it before.
9 Q. If you had such a disciplinary problem with one of your officers,
10 would you seek to terminate their employment?
11 A. I can just submit a request to initiate proceedings, but the
12 disciplinary commission which was working then, now it's a matter that
13 goes before the disciplinary court, so then the disciplinary commission
14 would decide about the fate of the policeman. They would investigate,
15 gather evidence, and decide what the outcome would be for that particular
17 Q. And you would seek to do that if you had an officer who was
18 stealing property and refusing to obey orders; correct?
19 A. Of course, a manager officer is obliged to investigate, to see
20 what happened, and if he should gather evidence on the matter, then he
21 would be duty-bound to initiate proceedings.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the court officer please call up ERN 0645-2837.
23 0645-2837. I apologise, it's actually part of the previous exhibit. If
24 we could go back to Exhibit P318. I believe it's the last exhibit, the
25 last page, which is ERN 0645-2837.
1 Q. Sir, do you see the document in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is a dispatch from the chief of the MUP dated 7 October 1992
4 with a sequential dispatch number. You recognise this official form;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the last sentence of this
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I think this witness could not provide
11 us any reliable information related to this document.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber, you haven't established any
13 familiarity on the part of the witness with a document of this kind.
14 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, I'm just looking at the document
15 for the first time on the screen. Do they have one with an official
16 stamp on it?
17 MR. WEBER: Judge, I am in the course of doing these things,
18 laying the foundations, If I could be allowed to examine based on the
19 document. When I go to tender, the Prosecution would be happy to respond
20 to whatever the foundational objections are by both counsel.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you need to lay the foundation before
22 you ask him to comment on the document.
23 MR. WEBER: Very well, Your Honour.
24 Q. Sir, you've already indicated that this is the official format
25 used for dispatches with the MUP; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you recognise the dispatch number on this document as being
3 part of the regularly used sequential numbering used in dispatches in
4 1992; correct?
5 A. Well, the numbers would change, so I cannot remember exactly
6 which the numbers -- which numbers were used in that period. The
7 organisational units would often change these numbers, so I'm not quite
8 sure. I cannot really tell you precisely.
9 Q. Okay. I understand it's going back a long time. I am not asking
10 you to recall the exact numbering of the document, but this is consistent
11 with the numbering that was used in 1992; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. It's just this first number 09-30 is too low. I think
13 there should be another digit there, in my opinion.
14 Q. Well, you recognise this format as being from the CSB Trebinje;
16 A. The format is all right. The signature is all right. I'm just
17 saying that this number is not logical. It's not quite right that there
18 is 09 and then the number immediately. There should be another number
19 indicating the organisational unit that would go in between these two
21 Q. I understand, sir. You recognise this signature as the signature
22 of the chief of the centre, Krsto Savic?
23 A. I cannot really talk specifically about the signature, but the
24 chief at the time was Krsto Savic. I cannot attest as to the signature,
1 Q. This document is consistent with the regular dispatches that you
2 would receive at that time as a member of the security services?
3 A. More or less, yes.
4 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the last line, but before
5 even getting to that, this document involves Sredoje Lukic again; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The last sentence of this dispatch states:
9 "The measure of termination of employment has been --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
11 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, this is calling for speculation. This
12 witness as is confirmed in this transcript could not provide us any
13 reliable information about disciplinary procedure against Sredoje Lukic.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: And I don't think he is doing that.
15 MR. WEBER: I'm just authenticating the document and verifying
16 what it says.
17 MR. CEPIC: And this is beyond of direct examination. We already
18 have admitted request. I prepared decision here with me, and we will
19 have the full picture. We will have the full -- all informations related
20 to this procedure. I'm so glad to request admission of procedure -- that
21 procedure, and it is in my hands right now in hard copy.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: But that doesn't prevent the Prosecutor from
23 examining on this document. I don't see anything improper in this line
24 of questioning, Mr. Cepic.
25 Continue, Mr. Weber.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Sir, this dispatch states in the last sentence:
3 "The measure of termination of employment has been pronounced
4 against the named party." Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said that you were in Visegrad in September and
7 October 1992. This document I see is dated the 7th of October, 1992
8 Are you aware -- did you know Sredoje Lukic?
9 A. When I arrived, Sredoje Lukic was not working at the Visegrad
10 police station anymore.
11 Q. Was it your understanding at that time that he had already been
13 A. Nobody said anything. In any case, he was not working. He
14 wasn't at work.
15 Q. Mr. Uscumlic, are you aware of any police officers that murdered
16 or raped any Bosnian Muslim civilians in Visegrad in June of 1992?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You identified a bunch of payroll lists during your direct
19 examination. I'd like to ask you about one name in particular. On all
20 those payroll lists was a Mr. Boban Simsic. Do you know that person?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you aware that Boban Simsic was convicted for crimes against
23 humanity by the court in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 7th August, 2007,
24 under case number XKRZ0504 for murder and rape of Bosnian civilians in
25 June of 1992? Are you aware of that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And despite your previous answer, you are aware that Boban
3 Simsic, then, was a reserve police officer in the Visegrad SUP; is that
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid.
6 MR. ALARID: This appears to be beyond the scope of direct
7 examination, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have been through that kind of objection
9 before, and the rules permit the cross-examiner to put his case.
10 MR. ALARID: And when the only other issue, then, would be the
11 relevance, Your Honour, due to the fact that --
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. What is the relevance, Mr. Weber?
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, he said that he wasn't aware of any
14 police officers from the Visegrad SJB committing murder or rape of a
15 Bosnian civilian, and then two questions later he has now said that he is
16 aware of one of those police officers.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Credibility. All right. Yes.
18 MR. WEBER: Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Uscumlic, you said that you responded to requests for
20 assistance by both parties in this case; is that correct?
21 A. Could you please repeat your question.
22 Q. You have responded in your official capacity to requests that
23 have been made by the parties in this case; correct?
24 A. Yes, and the other procedures.
25 Q. You've received requests from both the Defence and the
1 Prosecution in this case?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You've been listed as a witness for the accused Milan Lukic since
4 19 November 2008
5 case by the Defence?
6 A. I did not know that I would be a witness for the Defence until I
7 came here; then people from the Tribunal told me.
8 Q. Have you ever met with anyone from the Defence prior to you
9 coming to The Hague
10 A. Yes, with Mr. Ivetic when he came to submit that request for us
11 to run those checks. He came officially to the police station and
12 submitted that request.
13 Q. So with respect to that request, Mr. Ivetic actually delivered
14 that to you in person?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he inform you at that time -- I'm sorry, sir. If there's
17 something that you want to add, please go ahead.
18 A. I'm sorry. He filed it with the protocol section.
19 Q. Did he tell you that when he arrived?
20 A. Yes. He came and brought the request, and then I told him to go
21 to the protocol section to have it filed so that it is assigned a certain
23 Q. Was it explained to you at all at that time that you may be a
24 witness in this case?
25 A. I don't remember hearing that.
1 Q. Was this the first time you met Mr. Ivetic?
2 A. Yes, the first and the last.
3 Q. How long did you meet with Mr. Ivetic?
4 A. Fifteen minutes or so, but let me correct myself regarding this
5 mention of myself as a possible witness. It was mentioned, and that's
6 when I said that it would be a better idea for some of the professionals
7 involved in that kind of work to be invited as a witness, somebody who is
8 directly involved in that sort of work.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber, just five minutes.
10 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. This occurred between the 27th and 30th of January; correct?
12 A. I suppose so.
13 MR. WEBER: I'd like to please call up -- actually, recall
14 1D22-0800 and the corresponding 1D22-0802.
15 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the sentence
16 immediately above where it states "annex A." Do you see that portion?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It states:
19 "We are conveying for individuals we have located in our
20 evidence, under number 12 of the above-mentioned letter ." That's what
21 the response that you provided states; is that correct?
22 A. These are sequential numbers taken from your letter, from your
23 request. This might be a typo.
24 Q. Sir, I am not asking you about the numbers that are listed
25 beneath annex A. I'm asking you particularly about the sentence that
1 appears above where it says "annex A." It says that you are conveying
2 for individuals we have located in our evidence under number 12 of the
3 above-mentioned letter. That's what that states; is that correct?
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, he just read the sentence back and made
5 the correction.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Sir, is that what that sentence says?
9 A. That's what it says, but it's a typo. The typist when they typed
10 this made a mistake.
11 Q. Well, in terms of --
12 MR. WEBER: Well, I'd like to show you, then, 1D22-0814. The
13 corresponding B/C/S version is 1D22-0815.
14 Q. Sir, can you see this document in front of you? Actually, I
15 believe we just have the English version.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. WEBER: Does he have the corresponding B/C/S version in front
18 of you?
19 MR. IVETIC: If I can assist, it's 1D22-0815 it's the B/C/S.
20 It's part of the same -- it's the second page of the same document.
21 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much.
22 MR. IVETIC: Second page of the same exhibit, it should be. It's
23 one exhibit.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Sir, can you see the document in front of you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There is no item number 12 in that letter; is that correct?
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, again, misstates the evidence. He has
4 made the correction as to what the typographical error was, and they can
5 direct him to what he relied upon. I mean, they're trying to make a
6 mountain out of a molehill here.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the question, and let's move on.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Is there no item 12 in this request?
11 A. There's no -- it makes no sense that it should be 12.
12 Q. Okay. Is that a "yes," then; there's no item 12?
13 A. It's right. There's no sense in 12. It's just a typo. You can
14 look at the same document sent to the MUP of Republika Srpska. In their
15 copy, there is no such mistake, I suppose.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Your response to this request was on the
17 30th of January, 2009. You conducted your entire investigation within
18 three days; is that correct?
19 A. Once I delivered the list to the civil servant engaged in that
20 work, he ran the checks the same day.
21 Q. Is that all you did?
22 A. After I received the list, I submitted it to the civil servant in
23 charge because it a certain procedure. The document was filed,
24 registered. When it reached my desk, I sent it to CIPC. I gave it to
25 the civil servant, who manually looked up the files, ran the checks, and
1 gave me back -- came up that list.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. You did not go to Koritnik or any of the
3 residences in Visegrad that you found the addresses of to verify if these
4 individuals were still alive, did you?
5 A. No, no. All the work was only done based on the files because we
6 had no more details, just name, surname, and approximate age.
7 Q. Well, sir, you did not check any census data to verify if these
8 individuals were alive back in 1991 as part of this request, did you?
9 A. No, no, just the files.
10 Q. Sir, you didn't check any of the current voting records to verify
11 if any of these individuals were still currently alive as part of this
12 request, did you?
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object, beyond the scope, and it's
14 beyond the scope of the document itself because the request is right
15 before us. We've been sitting there looking at it for the last ten
16 minutes. It clearly states what was asked and what was responded to.
17 His response has nothing do with whether or not people are alive or dead,
18 and he has not testified as to that, so the questions by Mr. Weber are
19 misstating this gentleman's evidence.
20 MR. ALARID: And we can see how good Ms. Tabeau's table ended up
21 being at the final end, so I don't think it's really relevant to put
22 those questions to this witness.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Sir, you didn't check any of the current voting records to see if
1 these people were still alive, did you?
2 A. We had no access to those records, and we didn't check them.
3 Q. You didn't place a simply call to the Commission For Missing
4 Persons in Sarajevo
5 individuals, did you?
6 MR. ALARID: We know -- and that's an improper question. We know
7 how inaccurate that is as well. Lack of foundation for this witness.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Alarid, the objection is not meritorious.
9 Please proceed. You should be coming to an end now, Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER: These were my last questions.
11 Q. You did not even place a call to the Commission For Missing
12 Persons in Sarajevo
13 information relating to these individuals, did you?
14 A. I had to identify these persons first. How would I ask them for
15 information about certain people if in a database there are dozens of
16 people with the same name and surname?
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I just forgot to tender one document.
18 That would be the only thing. It was the last record that was called up
19 for Sredoje Lukic, is the dispatch. It was ERN 0645-2837.
20 MR. CEPIC: We object, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: What document is that?
22 MR. WEBER: That was the dispatch from the chief of the MUP dated
23 7 October 1992
24 indicated Mr. Lukic -- Sredoje Lukic was terminated from the employment
25 of the MUP.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You object to it being admitted.
2 MR. CEPIC: Yes, because this witness clearly said that there are
3 missing numbers and he couldn't recognise signature on that document.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We admit it.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I understand it's already been admitted as part
7 of 318.
8 MR. WEBER: Is it then acceptable with the Court to keep it as
9 part of the same exhibit?
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any -- Mr. Cepic.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. But before I start with my
14 examination, I kindly ask Madam Usher to deliver hard copies of one
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic, in what capacity are you seeking to
19 ask questions?
20 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, my client is mentioned several times,
21 and Prosecutor requested admission of some documents related to
22 disciplinary record of my clients. That's the capacity for
23 re-examination. And it is not something which I raised in my
24 examination. This is completely new topic.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Re-examination is for Mr. Ivetic. Whose witness
1 this? Who called this witness?
2 MR. ALARID: We would stipulate to give some of our time to
3 Mr. Cepic, Your Honour. We only have three questions.
4 MR. CEPIC: And with your leave, Your Honour, if I may remind,
5 page 53, line 18 and 19.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is not speaking into the microphone.
7 Nobody can hear him.
8 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... raise in my
9 examination. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The reference is --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I had said you could re-examine, although
11 he was not your witness. But you have questions to ask, so ask them.
12 MR. CEPIC: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I could facilitate for counsel. The
15 Prosecution has seen this document before as part of the bar table
16 motion. It's been raised. I believe that Mr. Cepic's request in that
17 regard is fair. We do not oppose admission of this document.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Does that help you?
19 MR. CEPIC: It's help me, Your Honour, but I would like to ask
20 just two questions.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, go ahead.
22 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Uscumlic, it's me again. You will agree
25 with me that this document before you is a decision by the Ministry of
1 the Interior?
2 A. The public security centre in Trebinje, yes.
3 Q. Right. Will you look at page 2. The Prosecutor asked you more
4 than once to read certain portions, and I will ask you the same thing.
5 Second page in English and second paragraph in B/C/S, second page, first
6 paragraph. Could you please read the first paragraph on the second page.
7 A. "Violations stated in items 1 and 2 of the request cannot be held
8 against the accused because from the additionally adduced evidence, it
9 cannot be established that the perpetrator of the act in question that he
10 is charged with pursuant to" --
11 MR. CEPIC: I kindly ask for admission of this document.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
14 MR. CEPIC:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, will you agree with me that in that
16 period that is autumn 1992 -- [In English] I'm sorry.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Exhibit 2D65.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Cepic. The witness did not
19 conclude the reading of that sentence.
20 MR. CEPIC: I am sorry.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: And maybe it's the important part that's
23 MR. CEPIC:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'm sorry. I did not let you finish
25 reading that portion. Will you finish the sentence?
1 A. "... the acts in question that pursuant to Article 286" -- sorry.
2 "... 296 of the Law on State Administration he is charged with."
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Cannot be established that the perpetrator of
4 the act in question, that he is charged with pursuant to -- what is the
5 effect of this, Mr. Cepic?
6 MR. CEPIC: Completely, directly. He is not accused for -- he is
7 not -- in this decision. [Interpretation] In this decision, he is found
8 guilty only for counts 3, 4, 5, not 1 and 2. And in the interests of
9 justice, I should tender this entire document because it provides a broad
10 picture of the entire procedure, and we will later in our arguments
11 present further evidence.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will admit it.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, will you agree with me that in the
15 period August, September, October 1992, it was extremely dangerous to
16 travel between Visegrad and Trebinje?
17 A. Yes. The roads were cut off, and to reach Trebinje you had to
18 travel via Serbia
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Uscumlic. No further
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, as I indicated, I have three
22 questions. I'll be brief.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
24 Q. Mr. Uscumlic, first of all, the Commission For Missing Persons in
1 registration numbers for persons born in Visegrad?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And I apologise for not knowing the name of the agency or the
4 department, but the entity involved in holding voter registration records
5 for Bosnia-Herzegovina, do they have a role in issuing and registering
6 the JMBG numbers for persons born in Visegrad?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And what entity or entities are tasked with keeping the records
9 of persons born in Visegrad and as to the JMBG registration in Visegrad?
10 A. Formally, it was the Ministry of the Interior, that is, police
11 stations, and now it is within the jurisdiction of Registrars' offices.
12 MR. IVETIC: Just waiting for the translation.
13 Thank you, sir, and again, I thank you for coming here pursuant
14 to subpoena issued and served upon you. I thank you for assisting us in
15 this matter as a subpoena witness. Thank you, sir.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, that concludes your evidence. We thank
17 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, the next witness.
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness in proofing had
21 requested protective measures. I don't know whether Your Honour has been
22 made privy to the e-mail that I circulated as soon as I found that
23 information. If possible, we can go in private and have the witness come
24 in and make the statements herself to Your Honours. She is perhaps in
25 the best position to explain the circumstances of the request for
1 protective measures.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, and I'll ask one or two questions, and you
3 will also assist.
4 MR. IVETIC: I will try, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the witness be brought.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 6661-6667 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Madam, first of all, can I ask you if you can confirm for me that
20 you came to testify here pursuant to an official subpoena served upon you
21 by the legal organs of the country in which you reside issued by order of
22 this Tribunal?
23 A. Yes. I was given a summons which I could not refuse, and that is
24 why I am here.
25 Q. And, ma'am, for the record, we -- for the record now, we need to
1 have your full name.
2 A. Stoja Vujicic.
3 Q. And, madam, could you tell us with respect to your current
4 occupation what you currently do and who you are employed by?
5 A. I work at the MUP of Republika Srpska, more specifically in the
6 Visegrad police station where I issue personal ID cards, unique citizens
7 identity numbers, and the CIPS system.
8 Q. Okay. And I'll wait for the translation and the transcript to
9 catch up with us. You've mentioned the that this is part of the CIPS
10 system within the structure of the MUP. Could you describe for us or
11 explain what the CIPS, C-I-P-S, system is?
12 A. Yes. These are civilian affairs that are under the jurisdiction
13 of the MUP, the issuance of personal ID cards, and it's like working in
14 an agency that is actually part of the MUP. We are actually paid by the
15 MUP. We are part of the MUP structure. Our bosses are within the MUP
17 Q. And I presume you had to report to the MUP and obtain their
18 acquiescence to you coming here pursuant to the subpoena rather than as a
19 willing witness; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. How long have you so been employed in this particular department
22 within the umberance [sic] -- or within the penumbra of the MUP of
23 Republika Srpska?
24 A. I have been in the MUP since 1986, but the CIPS agency began to
25 work on the 27th of October, 2003.
1 Q. You mentioned that one of the tasks with which your current
2 position is empowered relates to JMBG or JMBG numbers, the unique
3 identifier numbers, I guess, is how it came up in the transcript. If I
4 can ask you, please, what is your understanding of the current law and
5 regulation as to whether or not the registration of an individual born
6 and/or living in Bosnia-Herzegovina requires a JMBG, and how long has
7 that law been in effect?
8 A. The law has been in force since 1980. In 1980, they began to
9 issue unique personal identification numbers for citizens, and it's part
10 of the Law on Administrative Affairs of Republika Srpska, the then
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so on. This was in effect on the territory of
12 the whole of Yugoslavia
13 This is an identification number. If you know a person's unique
14 identification number, then you can have all data about them, who they
15 are, where they were born, where their place of residence is, and so on.
16 Q. And at what time is the JMBG issued or given to an individual who
17 is a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. Immediately on birth. Persons who were born before 1980 and did
19 not have a JMBG were given one retroactively. Parties would come and
20 receive this number, or the number was issued on the basis of personal
21 identification file cards, but for those who were born after 1980 they
22 received -- or newborns would receive this number immediately.
23 Q. And with respect to the registration system, is it possible for
24 more than one -- for more than one individual to have the same JMBG
1 A. It's possible, but it can only be the result of an error. Once
2 we started automatic data processing or computer data processing, you
3 could not have one JMBG for two persons. This is impossible. Computer
4 would not accept such data.
5 Q. Thank you. I've gotten a little bit ahead of myself. I want to
6 take things chronologically. If I could try to direct your attention
7 back to the year 1992, and I believe you had indicated that you had been
8 working in the MUP since sometime in the '80s. I believe you said 1986.
9 If you could please tell us, in 1992 what position of employment or
10 duties did you have within the MUP, specifically in Visegrad?
11 A. Personal ID cards issuing certificates about the places of
12 residence or changes of place of residence and the JMBG number.
13 Q. Thank you. And now focusing on 1992, was there a period of time
14 when you had occasion when you had to leave Visegrad for any reason
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And I want to focus on -- first of all, did you return to
18 Visegrad; and if so, what month did you return to work in the Visegrad
19 police station in 1992?
20 A. On the 27th of March, 1992, we had to leave the SUP. All the
21 Serb employees had to leave, and I returned to work -- actually, I
22 returned from Serbia
23 Q. And when you returned from Serbia in June, the second half of
24 June 1992 and when you returned to the police station to work, during
25 that time-period in June 1992, did you have an occasion to see Milan
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where did you have occasion to see him?
4 A. At the police station.
5 Q. How was Mr. Milan Lukic dressed on those occasions when you saw
6 him at the police station?
7 A. Blue camouflage uniforms worn by the police at that time, and
8 they also had yellow green camouflage uniforms as well.
9 Q. What can you tell us about your knowledge as to Milan Lukic in
10 June of 1992? What organisation or security force was he a member of?
11 A. I don't know, and I don't have any information about him being in
12 some other organisation. I would see him at the police station. When I
13 would come to work, I would go to my office. I would sometimes meet some
14 colleagues; sometimes I wouldn't. But in any case, for the most part I
15 would see him when I was at work.
16 Q. Now, ma'am, now we can return to your time-period of the present
17 day. Did you have -- in the course of your duties working in the
18 department for ID cards and ID numbers and change of address, did you
19 have occasion to be tasked by your commanding officer with responding to
20 a request for assistance from the Defence in this case, for myself,
21 relating to the JMBG dates of birth and father's last name as to a
22 certain list of individuals?
23 A. Yes. My commander brought me a list recently and told me to find
24 everything in the old database, the file cards with those first and last
25 names, which is what I did because this is my job. It's part of my job
2 Q. If I can ask you first of all, you said to look everything in the
3 old database. Where is the old database housed?
4 A. In my office, actually. It's in a corridor where I work. It's
5 part of the CIPS system.
6 Q. And that database, the old database, if you could tell us what
7 kinds of records make a part of it, what it consists of?
8 A. These are just file cards for personal identification cards
9 before the electronic data processing. Before 2003 when personal ID
10 cards were issued, the original of the card would be given to the party.
11 There would be just one original. There would not be a copy of it. But
12 there were some file cards which would have a fingerprint, a photograph
13 and signature of the party, and all of their personal data, their first
14 and last name, name of parents, when they were born, where, and the place
15 of residence. On the back of the card, there would be changes in place
16 of residence noted. If somebody, for example, moved from Visegrad to
17 Gorazde, you would note down the time when they stopped being a resident
18 of Visegrad and became a resident of Gorazde.
19 Q. And on this -- and on this occasion when you were tasked by your
20 commander to perform this search, did you have occasion to see the actual
21 letter from me and the list enclosed therein as to the individuals that
22 were to be searched for?
23 A. Yes. I had the list because I had to look for the file cards
24 according to the list.
25 Q. And were you able to find all the individuals from that list
1 based upon the information given within the bounds of your manual search
2 through the physical records, the physical database?
3 A. This is not so difficult to do the search because if you have one
4 last name, you will take that last name and you will take out all the
5 persons with that last name that is on the list. It's in alphabetical
6 order, anyway, so this is something that is very easy to find.
7 Q. And once you performed this task and obtained the information in
8 the physical cards of the individuals from the list, did you take any
9 part in drafting the response by the police station in Visegrad and your
10 commander Zoran Uscumlic to the Defence relating to this information that
11 was found, or did you just report it to him?
12 A. It was my job to find all of those file cards and to hand over
13 the file cards to him with a record of how many file cards I handed over.
14 As for the reply, I mean, we had to note down if somebody changed their
15 last name or their place of residence. We would check back on the file
16 card. We would enter the JMBG into the CIPS system, and then with that
17 number, it would immediately show up where that person was currently
18 residing if it was registered in the CIPS. So I noted all of those
19 changes, and then I handed over all those file cards and records to my
20 commander, and then, actually, I didn't have anything more to do with
21 actually replying to this particular request.
22 Q. And with respect to the CIPS system, am I correct that -- well,
23 let me give you -- let me see how it came out in the transcript. You are
24 recorded in the transcript as saying: "We would enter the JMBG into the
25 CIPS system and with that number it would immediately show up where that
1 person is currently residing ..." Is that true for persons that would be
2 residing outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or is it limited to those living
3 within Bosnia
4 A. Yes, yes. No, no. Only in Bosnia
5 somebody was living if we had their JMBG number. Outside of the borders
6 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we are not able to do that.
7 Q. And were you able to -- given the list that you were given, were
8 you able to find for every person on that list a file card correlating to
9 the name, last name, and the approximate age that was listed on the list
10 from the indictment that was presented to you?
11 A. Well, let me remember an example. I know there was a family name
12 of Kurspahic. I was actually born there, so I'm familiar with it. It
13 was written Aisa Kurspahic, born approximately 1940. So of all the --
14 all the Aisas born in approximately 1940 we singled out. The JMBG number
15 was missing. There was no father's name or mother's name, and we can't
16 know precisely which Aisa it was. We could have narrowed it down with
17 the name of the father or some other detail. So we had to make a list of
18 all the Aisa Kurspahics born around 1940 that we came up with.
19 Q. I apologise. I have to wait for the English to catch up with us
20 even though I sometimes have a tendency to want to ask you a follow-up
21 question before the translation is finished. With respect to the list
22 that you were given, were there individuals for whom you could not find a
23 corresponding file card that matched the name and the approximate age
24 that was listed on the list?
25 A. Yes. For instance, there were some children listed as around 1,
1 2, or 3, and they could not even have had card files. They would have to
2 be at least 18 when one becomes eligible for an ID. Formally, children
3 were entitled to be issued with an ID card below 18 with the consent of
4 the parents. However, very few children availed themselves of that
5 possibility. They simply don't have ID cards.
6 Q. I think you've sufficiently described the process behind the
7 response to the request from the Defence in your present-day role with
8 respect to the dates of birth and JMBG numbers.
9 To get back to the time-period of 1992 and the wartime period in
10 Visegrad, for the sake of clarity, do you recall, who was the commander
11 of the police station in 1992 in June when you returned?
12 A. In June, it was Dragan Tomic.
13 Q. And do you recall what happened to Mr. Tomic?
14 A. Yes. He got killed.
15 Q. Do you recall when it was that he was killed?
16 A. I remember one of his -- one of our colleagues got killed on the
17 19th of June, and on the 20th -- 21st, rather, three of our colleagues
18 got killed, among them, Mr. Tomic, Mr. Andric, and another one.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, madam. I have no further questions for
20 direct examination. Again, I thank you for coming here in response to
21 our subpoena to assist us in this manner.
22 Your Honours, I pass the witness.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.
24 MR. CEPIC: With your leave, very briefly, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, ma'am. I'm Djuro Cepic,
2 Defence counsel for Sredoje Lukic. I have few questions for you.
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] and I would like to call up
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, can I get my glasses?
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you see the screen?
8 A. Yes, but can we enlarge this, the right-hand list.
9 MR. CEPIC: I kindly ask the upper part of document, please.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recognise this document?
11 A. That's a list of employees, payroll.
12 MR. CEPIC: Can you go down to number 22.
13 Q. [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
14 A. On the right-hand side. That's me, yes.
15 Q. Is that your name?
16 A. Yes. Stoja Vujicic.
17 Q. Look at 13, please. It says Sredoje Lukic. Can you please read
18 what is written there next to his name?
19 A. Sredoje Lukic, secondary education, suspended on the
20 19th of August, 1992.
21 Q. Would you like to authenticate the document?
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the second page,
24 Q. Is this an authentic document issued at your station?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. CEPIC: I would kindly ask admission of this document, Your
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D66, Your Honours.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Ma'am, we can see here that Sredoje Lukic was suspended from duty
7 on the 19th of August, 1992.
8 A. I'm sorry. I hear you and the interpreter at the same time.
9 Q. Sorry. On the first document shown to you, we saw that
10 Sredoje Lukic was suspended on the 19th of August, 1992.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Until that day, did he perform all his duties as a regular active
13 duty policeman at the police station in Visegrad?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. CEPIC: Could we have on our screens 2D00-1665, please. And
17 could we zoom in number 22, please.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Would you please look at 22.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In the right-hand corner, do you see your signature?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 MR. CEPIC: Can you scroll up.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you see what this document refers to?
1 A. It's the payroll for September 1992.
2 Q. Can you please look at 14.
3 A. Sredoje Lukic. I can see it's Lukic Sredoje, but --
4 Q. Will you please listen to my questions. In this table, we see
5 minus 30 percent next to Sredoje Lukic's name, and we see that it's
6 payment for the month of September. Did he get a deduction of 30 percent
7 because he was suspended?
8 A. Of course. If you are suspended, then your salary is reduced.
9 MR. CEPIC: I kindly ask admission of this exhibit.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Exhibit 2D67.
12 MR. CEPIC: And the last document is 2D00-1668.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Now, in regard to this document I have only one
14 question. We see that it's a list of personnel for the purposes of
15 payment of salaries for the month of October 1992. Will you look at
16 number 22, please. Is that your name?
17 A. Yes. Stoja Vujicic.
18 Q. And how about number 13?
19 A. Sredoje Lukic, and then suspended on the 19th of August, 1992.
20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, ma'am. I have no further
22 May I tender this document.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D68, Your Honours.
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Cole:
3 Q. Good afternoon, madam. My name is Stevan Cole. I will be asking
4 you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
5 Just a little bit about yourself, firstly. What is your maiden
7 A. Bozic.
8 Q. And you're an Orthodox Serb?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you are age 46?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were born on - I'll spell it - B-l-a-c-e in the Visegrad
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this is not very far distant from Klasnik and Rujiste; is
16 that right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And are you aware or do you believe that Milan Lukic comes from
20 A. Yes, I'm certain he was born in Rujiste. In fact, he lived in
21 Rujiste. I can't remember exactly if he was born there. For instance, I
22 was born somewhere in the countryside. I don't know where he was born
23 exactly, but he grew up in Rujiste.
24 Q. Okay. Now, have you effectively lived your whole life in
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you have effectively worked your whole life in Visegrad?
3 A. Yes. And I went to school there, and I've worked my whole life
4 in Visegrad.
5 Q. And you've worked in one capacity or another for the police for
6 your whole working career?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now, presently are you a civilian police employee, a civilian
9 employed at the police station?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. And I have always worked as a civilian
11 employed by the police.
12 Q. So you've never worked as a police officer, an active or
13 permanent police officer, even though your name appears on the list of
14 permanent police staff?
15 A. Well, you have to understand one thing. We who work in
16 administration, things like issuing IDs, registration for vehicles or
17 driver's licences, et cetera, we were never police officers, but we are
18 in the same police station. We work for the Ministry of the Interior.
19 We are not the same as policemen, but we share the same building.
20 Q. All right. I thank you for that explanation. I wonder if you
21 could help us with just short answers if you can. If it needs longer to
22 explain, then, of course, I don't want to cut you short.
23 So the work that you explained before in your answer, for
24 example, the JMBG, is that the sort of work you've been doing for over 20
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you at one stage work as a traffic officer in June of 1992?
3 Did you go out working with the traffic at some stage?
4 A. No, never. I never worked as a policeman, a traffic policeman or
5 any other kind of policeman.
6 Q. If I have time later, I might put a document to you that
7 indicates that on the 23rd of June you had some work as a traffic
8 officer, and you'll be able to explain that at that stage.
9 Now, your home address now, is it the same address that you were
10 living in 1992 when you returned to Visegrad, in June?
11 A. No. Until then, I rented an apartment. In fact, I rented an
12 apartment until late last year. I only recently got my apartment -- an
13 apartment that I owned.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. And that was a change of address.
16 Q. Where were you living when -- in June of 1992? What part of
18 A. It's Vidovdanska Street.
19 Q. Is that in the centre of town, or how far from, let's say, the
20 old bridge is that address?
21 A. Perhaps two kilometres, maybe a kilometre and a half. I can't
22 tell you exactly.
23 Q. And where were you working? Which particular building were you
24 working in in 1992?
25 A. Well, that is close to my apartment, too, but on the other side
1 of the bridge. Both the SUP
2 the town.
3 Q. If you could just do it shortly for me, if you would, were you
4 working in a police building or a police station in 1992?
5 A. Yes. That's the police building, and there was only one police
6 building, one police station.
7 Q. And where exactly is that in relation to the river or a bridge?
8 Can you give us some idea? Somewhere near the old bridge or the new
10 A. Well, it's closer to the old bridge than to the new bridge.
11 Q. What is the distance from the police station where you were
12 working to the old bridge?
13 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. Perhaps a kilometre.
14 Q. Okay. So did you have to cross either the old bridge or the new
15 bridge when you were going from your home to work in 1992?
16 A. No, no. Because my apartment was perhaps 300 to 400 metres away
17 from the SUP
18 Q. It's your evidence that you returned to Visegrad on the
19 23rd of June, 1992. How can you be sure of that date?
20 A. Which statement? This is the first time I'm giving any sort of
21 evidence before anyone.
22 Q. Sorry, I have the date wrong. It's the 15th of June. It was
23 your evidence it was the 15th of June, I'm sorry, that you -- your
24 evidence that you returned, I think, from Serbia to Visegrad. So is that
25 date correct or not?
1 A. That is correct. I now testify that that is the correct date of
2 my return because on the 27th of March when we left the SUP, I did not
3 come back to Visegrad until the 15th of June.
4 Q. So how do you know it was the 15th of June?
5 A. Because I know that it's the Holy Trinity, our Serbian holiday,
6 and it falls always on a Sunday, and I know that I returned the first day
7 after the Holy Trinity, and I returned to work.
8 Q. And so what day of the week was the 15th of June, 1992?
9 A. Monday. Because the Holy Trinity is always on a Sunday. The
10 date can change but not the day.
11 Q. So you were employed by the police department, if we can call it
12 that, from I think you said 1986, and you are still employed by the
13 department today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I just want to ask you about the period then when you returned to
16 Visegrad in 1992 say through to the end of the war in Bosnia in 1995.
17 Did you continue to receive your police pay on a regular basis during
18 that period?
19 A. Not immediately. I only started to work sometime around the 1st
20 of July, and until I started to work, of course I received no salary.
21 Q. You were paid, weren't you, from -- certainly from June 1992;
22 isn't that correct? You were paid that month?
23 A. No.
24 MR. COLE: Could we have Exhibit P209, please, the first page in
25 B/C/S and in English. In fact, it's the second page in English. P209.
1 Q. Can you see that on the screen in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that a similar list as was shown to you a short time ago by
4 Mr. Cepic, but this time it's the for the month of June 1992, isn't it?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. We can see your name there, can't we, at number 20?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you concede, then, that you were wrong a short time ago and
9 that in fact you were paid certainly in June of 1992?
10 A. No, that's not wrong. This is a list of employees, and the
11 payroll kept at the bank is another thing. I know that I did not receive
12 my salary. I had a temporary replacement, a stand-in, and if anyone got
13 the salary at that time, it was her.
14 Q. All right. Well, then this time will you have a look, please, at
16 MR. COLE: The first page in B/C/S, and it's the first going over
17 to the second pages of the English.
18 Q. Now, this is the pay record for June 1992, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you think maybe you have made a mistake about being paid in
21 June 1992?
22 A. No, I'm certain. Look, it says "Stoja Vujicic - Jela," and the
23 person who collected the salary at the bank was Jela, Jela Rosic who
24 occupied my place until I returned.
25 MR. COLE: Yes. I wonder -- Your Honour, it's been brought to my
1 attention that exhibits that are being shown to the witness are in fact
2 confidential, so I wonder if we can take steps so that they aren't
3 broadcast, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: They have not been broadcast.
5 MR. COLE: Yes. I apologise for that.
6 Q. All right. So the position is that someone else collected your
7 pay, you're telling us, for June, and was it the following month, July,
8 you once again collected your pay?
9 A. I really can't remember about July, but I'm certain about June,
10 that I did not go there myself and collect it, the salary.
11 MR. COLE: All right. That can be taken from the screen. Thank
13 Q. Well, then, let's just summarise, then. Certainly from about
14 July 1992 through until 1995, did you collect your pay as a police
15 employee on a regular basis during that period?
16 A. Well, if that's what you call regular. I received them because
17 from the 4th of October, 1992, I was on sick leave. Later, in fact, I
18 was on maternity leave, but our law allows for two years of maternity
19 leave for your third child.
20 Q. Well, then, for the most part you were continuing to receive pay
21 for, let's say, two years from July 1992?
22 A. Well, to the extent that they were paid out, I received them
23 because you get 100 percent of your salary while you are in sick leave,
24 no deductions.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cole, as you know, we stop at 10 minutes
1 after 7.00, so I have to ask, how much longer will you be?
2 MR. COLE: What I can indicate, Your Honour, is that I will, in
3 light of the examination-in-chief that I've heard, cut down the
4 cross-examination that I have so that I -- certainly within, let's say,
5 half an hour or so, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have to keep it to about 20 minutes. The
7 examination-in-chief was 23 minutes. But we'll have to resume tomorrow.
8 MR. COLE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: So we'll adjourn until tomorrow at 8.50 a.m.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of April,
12 2009, at 8.50 a.m.