090406ED

Page 6743

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphones haven't been

8 switched on.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please switch on the microphone for the witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-141

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may sit and you may begin,

15 Ms. Friedman.

16 Examination by Ms. Friedman:

17 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. The Trial Chamber has granted you protective measures in the form

20 of image distortion and the use of a pseudonym, so I will refer to you as

21 VG-141. Do you understand?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. FRIEDMAN: And could the witness be shown her pseudonym

24 sheet, please.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

Page 6744

1 MR. CEPIC: My usual notice, if it's possible page 3, line 8 just

2 to be redacted the name of this witness.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it has to be redacted.

4 MS. FRIEDMAN:

5 Q. On the piece of paper before you, can you confirm that this is

6 your name and date of birth?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And could you please sign this sheet of paper?

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 MS. FRIEDMAN: I tender the pseudonym sheet as an exhibit under

11 seal.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P324, under seal, Your Honours.

14 MS. FRIEDMAN:

15 Q. Now, before you is just a pseudonym reference sheet, it's an

16 excerpt from the first one that shows a name of another woman and the

17 pseudonym we used for her in court. Do you know this woman?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I would ask that if you do refer to her in your testimony, can

20 you please use the pseudonym you see before you, VG-136.

21 A. Very well.

22 Q. Sorry, that's VG-133. Is that the number that you have before

23 you?

24 A. Yes, I see that.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. VG-141, what is your ethnicity?

Page 6745

1 A. I'm a Bosniak.

2 Q. And in what municipality were you born?

3 A. Visegrad municipality.

4 Q. Where were you living in June 1992?

5 A. I was living in Visegrad.

6 Q. When did you meet Milan Lukic for the first time?

7 A. I met him for the first time at the door to my flat on the 10th

8 of June, 1992.

9 Q. What were you doing on that day before he arrived?

10 A. I was in my flat with my mother, my brother, and my father. It

11 was dusk, evening, 7.00. We were playing cards and dominoes because the

12 situation was tense, generally speaking.

13 Q. And who answered the door?

14 A. I opened the door.

15 Q. And can you describe what the man before you looked like?

16 A. He was about 25 years old. He was tall. He had light brown

17 hair. He was about 1 metre 80 tall. He had one of those short rifles, I

18 don't know whether it's a semi-automatic or whatever, but anyway a

19 shorter rifle, but on his back it said "milicija" in Cyrillic, police.

20 Q. You said it was around 7 p.m., was it still light out around that

21 time?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. And what about in your apartment, did you have lights on?

24 A. No, because it was June and still light, there was still

25 daylight, we didn't have the electricity on.

Page 6746

1 Q. And how far away were you standing from the man that came to your

2 door?

3 A. Well, when he rang the bell, I opened the door, so I might have

4 been a metre or less away from him.

5 Q. And what did he say to you?

6 A. He said, Good evening, any men in the house? We are looking for

7 Sehic.

8 Q. Did anyone else come to the door at that point?

9 A. My father came to the door and asked who he was looking for, and

10 he said, Is Sehic there? Do you know Sehic?

11 Q. And what happened next?

12 A. My father said he didn't know any such man and that there wasn't

13 a Sehic living in the building, but there is a neighbour of ours and his

14 surname was Sehic and that he lived on the fourth floor.

15 Q. And did anybody else from the house come to the the door?

16 A. Milan Lukic asked whether there were any other men in the flat.

17 My brother came to the door so both of them were at the door and he said

18 that they should follow him and show him where that other flat was, that

19 is to say, where Sehic was.

20 Q. Did they ask or inquire anything else of him?

21 A. My father just asked whether he should take any ID papers with

22 him or anything else, and he said no, just follow me, you don't need

23 anything.

24 Q. And where did they go next?

25 A. Milan Lukic -- well, in the meantime, he rang the neighbour's

Page 6747

1 doorbell and our neighbour opened the door and her son was taken out of

2 the flat together with my brother. And they set off down the stairs. We

3 lived on the fifth floor.

4 Q. Okay. And where did they go next?

5 A. They left the building. And my flat as I said was on the fifth

6 floor as I looked out on to the street. My mother and I went out on to

7 the balcony, and you could see the street from the balcony, and there was

8 a red Passat car, a dark red Passat car parked in front of the building,

9 and my brother, my father and my neighbour Mirsad was standing in front

10 of the car when Mirsad Hota's [phoen] father appeared who was coming out

11 of the garden; and he said, Leave my child alone, take me instead. And

12 the gentleman said to him, You old man, you are coming with us too.

13 Q. Can you tell us, you mentioned the dark red Passat. Do you have

14 any other information about that car?

15 A. Well, I know that it was owned by Behija Zukic.

16 Q. If it was being driven by other people that day, do you know now

17 that came to pass?

18 A. Well, Behija Zukic was the first victim to fall, that is to say

19 the first person killed in Visegrad. Visegrad is a small town, not a

20 rich town either. And at that time, that was considered to be a luxury

21 car, and there was only that one Passat car in Visegrad so everybody

22 could recognise it.

23 Q. And did you hear how Behija Zukic was killed?

24 A. Well, I heard that she was killed in her own house, and that they

25 seized her car and that Milan Lukic took the car.

Page 6748

1 Q. Okay. Did you see any other vehicles when you looked out from

2 the balcony?

3 A. I noticed a green Skoda, and I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic. He

4 was in front of the building too.

5 Q. How did you know who he was?

6 A. Well, I knew him because he worked as a waiter in the hotel by

7 the Drina river in the garden restaurant there and we would go there

8 fairly often. The garden of the hotel.

9 Q. You said that you were observing this from your fifth floor

10 balcony. Do you know if anyone else in the building had an opportunity

11 to observe what was happening below?

12 A. My mother was on the balcony with me, and my neighbour whose son

13 had also been taken off, and, unfortunately, the woman has died since;

14 and below us on the fourth floor, there was witness VG-133, her

15 father-in-law and mother-in-law, they were also on their terrace. And

16 they could see it all.

17 Q. Okay. Now, were the men at any point put in one of the vehicles?

18 A. Yes. They went into the red Passat car.

19 Q. And who was driving the red Passat car, if you could see?

20 A. Milan Lukic.

21 Q. Now, can you tell us what you observed at that point?

22 A. The car set off towards the bridge across the Drina river, and as

23 my building is about 100 metres as a crow flies from the bridge, so not

24 far, and as I live on the fifth floor, I could see the bridge from there

25 and I saw this car stop on the -- at the middle of the bridge at a wider

Page 6749

1 place that is called the divan [phoen], and I saw my father, my brother

2 and neighbours climb up on to the divan; and it has two steps where the

3 end of the bridge, the wall -- I could see my brother, my father, and my

4 two neighbours that I've already mentioned. My brother was wearing a

5 white jumper and a light grey track suit, and I saw that he put his hands

6 up in protest. I couldn't hear him say anything, but he kept his hands

7 in front and he was debating something, and I was wondering what was

8 going to happen because I had heard that there were mass killings that

9 took place on the bridge. So I turned my head, I just turned my head

10 towards the wall, shut my eyes, covered my eyes with my hands and then I

11 heard shots.

12 I don't know how long this went on for. It seemed a long time to

13 me, but it might have been just a few minutes, one or two minutes, and

14 when I turned around again to look at the bridge, there was nobody there.

15 My brother wasn't there, my neighbours weren't there, my father wasn't

16 there anymore. All I saw was that somebody was leaning over the wall of

17 the bridge and looking down into the water.

18 Then I rushed into the flat, and there was a radio Visegrad

19 broadcast and I listened to that and heard that all the citizens, locals

20 who were being taken off, that that should be reported to the police. So

21 I rang the police up and said that a uniformed individual took away my

22 father and my brother, that they were up at the bridge, and could

23 somebody check and see what had happened. And they said they would check

24 this out, but I never received an answer from them.

25 My mother and I were crying and all we could say is what has

Page 6750

1 happened? What is this that has happened? And at that point in time,

2 the Passat car was still on the bridge, but they were no longer there,

3 that is to say my brother, my father, and my neighbours. They weren't on

4 the bridge anymore.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that at the time you referred to him as

6 a uniformed soldier, and when did you find out that this was Milan Lukic?

7 A. Perhaps half an hour later when we went down to our neighbour's

8 flat. The father-in-law and mother-in-law, VG-133, said, the neighbour

9 said that this was Milan Lukic.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Cepic.

11 MR. CEPIC: I really apologise for interrupting, just one

12 intervention in transcript, page 9 lines 13 and 14, I think the

13 translation should be "to report to police." And we can listen the tape

14 or my learned friend from OTP could clarify by examination.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Instead of what?

16 MR. CEPIC: Locals who were police.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: To report to police. Thank you very much.

18 MS. FRIEDMAN:

19 Q. Now, so the father-in-law and mother-in-law of VG-133 told you it

20 was Milan Lukic. What did they say about how did they know this?

21 A. They said that before he same came to our flat he had been to

22 their flat and asked for their son, and they recognised him and it was

23 Milan Lukic. Just like VG-133, she said it was him too, that is to say

24 Milan Lukic.

25 Q. So turning to each them, VG-133, did she tell you how she knew

Page 6751

1 Milan Lukic?

2 A. Well, she knew him because she had worked as a nurse and he would

3 come to the the health centre, so she knew him. And on several

4 occasions, he came to her flat looking for her husband.

5 Q. How much longer after the incident did you stay in Visegrad?

6 A. Seven days.

7 Q. And how did you come to leave Visegrad after my brother and

8 father disappeared, they came on a couple of other occasions, that is to

9 say soldiers came to check out the flats to see if there were any other

10 menfolk in the flats. And on one occasion when they took some Muslim

11 inhabitants out, I wasn't there at the time, I was in my flat actually,

12 but as I had the keys to the building, because we would shut the down

13 stairs front door, a soldier came by and returned the keys to the the

14 entrance to the building, and I asked him how long we could stay there,

15 and he said that convoys were being prepared and that we would have to

16 leave the town, and that the convoys were safe; and our neighbour called

17 my mother up on the phone and she was a Serb, but she was a very good

18 neighbour of ours, and she told my mother that we should leave with the

19 convoy and that she was, in fact, saving me.

20 She gave us some money and even prepared some food for the

21 journey and wished us bon voyage.

22 Q. What day did you leave on a convoy?

23 A. The convoy was planned on the 16th of June, but on that

24 particular day there was some shooting around Sjemec, so the convoy was

25 moved forward to the 17th. And that night we didn't stay in our flat, we

Page 6752

1 didn't sleep in our flat, but together with our neighbours who were

2 Muslims as well, who had remained in the building, we spent the night in

3 Witness VG-133's flat and set out from in front of the Visegrad hotel,

4 that is to say the hotel on the Drina, we set out with the convoy.

5 Q. And where was the last stop of the convoy, where did it take you?

6 A. The convoy took us in the direction of Olovo, and we passed over

7 Serb-control territory and along the separation line, 5 kilometres from

8 Olovo, that's where the buses were stopped.

9 Q. When you arrived in Olovo, how long did you stay there?

10 A. We stayed in Olovo for two or three days. My mother wasn't

11 feeling well, so I took her to the health centre there, and then we were

12 taken to Visoko by bus.

13 Q. How long did you stay in Visoko and where did you go afterwards?

14 A. We stayed in Visoko for a month and a half, stayed with some of

15 my father's relatives, and through the Red Cross, I met my aunt from

16 Gorazde there and then we left for Germany.

17 Q. Okay. When you were in Germany, did you ever report this

18 incident to the Red Cross?

19 A. In Germany we had very good support from friends. I mean, they

20 were Germans, and there was a professor and he was extremely kind to us,

21 and I told him what had happened; and through the Red Cross he filled in

22 the forms for the missing persons in order for them to look for my

23 father.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6753

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, while we are wait for that, I can at

16 this time perhaps voice my objection. This is, indeed, the document that

17 I mentioned earlier. This is a statement of some type of various facts

18 resulting from Ms. Ewa Tabeau and Arve Hetland. It is based upon

19 communications with several organisation including Amor Masovic's group.

20 So in essence, it a third party statement recording hearsay information

21 of other third parties being presented, and to the extent that that does

22 not come from this witness, I would object to this document coming in as

23 a stand alone document of itself without the proper formalities being

24 followed, i.e., calling Ms. Tabeau.

25 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours.

Page 6754

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Friedman.

2 MS. FRIEDMAN: The document is self-authenticating. It is the

3 same information that the court has heard extensive testimony from

4 Dr. Tabeau about, the first page of the document lists the source that

5 were used. They were all sources that were used in her previous report

6 and in the clarification, so in that sense the document should not have

7 any problems in terms of authenticity; and I will ask the witness to

8 confirm the contents of the document, which is the part that she can

9 comment on; but it's well known by now in these proceedings where this

10 information comes from.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say it is the same information in relation

12 to which we have already heard testimony from Dr. Tabeau.

13 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's the same sources that she uses to compile her

14 report.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Same sources.

16 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's just a few pages very briefly about these two

17 particular victims.

18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would say it's a violation of Rule 92

19 ter and 92 bis to present statements of persons whether or not they are

20 accumulative of evidence that we still have certain formalities and

21 procedures under Rules or Procedure and Evidence. And one of them is --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down. Would the

23 counsel please slow down. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: They are not hearing you. You are going too

25 fast.

Page 6755

1 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry. I apologise, Your Honour, trying to save

2 time. I would say it's a violation of 92 ter and 92 bis, we still have

3 formalities and formalities under the Rules of Procedure and Evidence at

4 this Tribal such that even if evidence is cumulative of prior evidence

5 those formalities must be met, especially where a written statement is

6 being presented, being tendered by a party into evidence, purporting to

7 have in it the statements of out-of-court declarants who themselves are

8 relying upon hearsay of other persons known and unknown to compile the

9 information and present it as for the truth of the matter asserted, which

10 is, I think, what is being done in this case.

11 It's very much similar to the report of Amor Masovic which this

12 Trial Chamber struck in part where it contained un-confirmable statements

13 of third parties that were not presented for cross-examination. And

14 again the information here to the extent that it is something that this

15 witness does not personally know or did not personally write would be

16 out-of-court statements presented for the truth of the matter asserted

17 and which would not be subjected to the scrutiny of cross-examination;

18 and, therefore, we would believe would be violative of the Court's ruling

19 as to the Amor Masovic testimony and also violative of Rules 92 ter and

20 92 bis, which are the proper modes of producing written testimony into

21 evidence. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Friedman, can you distinguish this from the

23 Amor Masovic case.

24 MS. FRIEDMAN: I believe that there was -- I will have to check

25 on this, but it was just one particular aspect of Amor Masovic's evidence

Page 6756

1 that was not admitted; and I think it had, I think, it was specifically

2 about the bodies having been moved from one site to another which was

3 something that witnesses had reported to him. It was not about his use

4 of the ICMP which is one of the sources that is a used here. It wasn't

5 about his use of those demographic materials that were available. It was

6 solely about something that he had heard from witnesses.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not the document is not from Ms. Tabeau.

8 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's from her colleague who works under her

9 supervision, Dr. -- sorry, not doctor, but Arve Hetland, and he

10 co-authored the previous clarification with Ms. Tabeau.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MS. FRIEDMAN: Perhaps one final point.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Also the version you have is signed by

15 Mr. Hetland, but if it's necessary we can have an actual affidavit or

16 declaration; and I would note that 92 bis does allow for such a thing for

17 an appearance of such a witness not that I think this is a bis situation,

18 but I don't see this document as being highly out of the ordinary for

19 this Chamber.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber believe that this is a different

22 situation from Masovic. We observe in the very last paragraph of the

23 document that this witness actually provided the information that is in

24 the in the document and she has already said as much. We'll admit it.

25 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 6757

1 Now, if I could ask the court usher to bring the document up on

2 the screen. It's there. Okay. And turn, please -- if you could turn to

3 the third page.

4 Q. Okay. Now, VG-141, you'll see -- does this document refer to

5 your father and brother?

6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, should we perhaps not transmit this to

7 the public.

8 MS. FRIEDMAN: I understand it's not being transmitted.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not being transmitted.

10 MS. FRIEDMAN:

11 Q. VG-141, can you confirm that this relates to your father and

12 brother?

13 A. Yes, I can confirm that.

14 Q. And is this their correct birth dates?

15 A. Yes, these are the correct dates.

16 Q. And is this your address at the time of the incident?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MS. FRIEDMAN: And could the court usher please turn to the

19 fourth page now.

20 Q. Now, on this page the date of disappearance is listed next to the

21 words "Visegrad." Can you read out that date?

22 A. The 16th of May, 1992. The 16th of May, 1992.

23 Q. Is that accurate?

24 A. It is not.

25 Q. Can you tell us -- you had an occasion to see Mr. Masovic in

Page 6758

1 Bosnia, can you tell us if you at that time said anything to him about

2 these dates?

3 MR. IVETIC: I would object to the point that there's been no

4 notice or disclosure of any discussions with Masovic including the

5 proofing statement that was sent to us yesterday. There's no mention of

6 any of this testimony. And the copy of the memoranda that was provided

7 to Defence does not have the last paragraph that it say that it came from

8 this witness, so I don't know what is going on.

9 MS. FRIEDMAN: I'm sure that the copy provided is the only copy

10 we have, so it would have that paragraph.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you find that for us.

12 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to, Your Honour, the copy I have on the

13 page two says, "The annexes to this memo list the personal details and

14 details relevant to the reporting of death disappearance of," I won't say

15 the names, "from the mentioned sources"; so it's clear that this does not

16 come from the witness but from the sources that Ms. Tabeau's assistant

17 identifies.

18 MS. FRIEDMAN: The paragraph that was referred to was the last

19 paragraph on the first page. So that paragraph indeed reads

20 biological -- some biographical data, that is the first name, family

21 name, and date of birth were known of the victims from the witness.

22 MR. IVETIC: From the witness statement. There's no discussion

23 here of the witness providing this information or speaking with Mr.

24 Amor Masovic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something. I did not see

Page 6759

1 Amor Masovic. I was in his office, but one of the employees showed me

2 the register of missing persons, and it is there that I found my brothers

3 and my father's names. I did not meet Mr. Amor Masovic.

4 MS. FRIEDMAN: And in terms of the evidence we disclosed this

5 exhibit as one we were going to use with the witness, so the Defence has

6 notice of the exhibits of the witness's testimony, the fact that the date

7 appears to be inaccurate and is the same everywhere else is something

8 that I clearly should explore with the witness in direct examination.

9 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, the problem is that this witness

10 did a proofing statement with this same counsel listed as corrections and

11 clarifications of the statements by this witness. This information as to

12 why the date is inaccurate is not on the proofing statement. They did

13 not explain this difference in the proofing statement, and now they are

14 attempting to do it as an ambush. And would he we knew that the date was

15 different, we have a certain method of wanting to cross-examine that I

16 think it's rather significant that the information provided by the

17 witness to other organisations gives a different date of disappearance,

18 and the only witness that this witness being brought is not for the event

19 that is alleged, but the date. This is alibi rebuttal in the

20 Prosecution's rebuttal case, the date is the critical part of this

21 evidence and now they are changing the testimony, and they never gave us

22 notice of it. That, Your Honour, is quite troubling.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, if I may.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, can you just very slowly and clearly

Page 6760

1 outline your objection.

2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. The notification for this

3 witness, and in fact the submission of, one moment, the submission of 20

4 March, 2009, outlined the testimony that was going to be brought by this

5 witness, again in rebuttal of the Defence case and in rebuttal of an

6 alibi presented by Mr. Milan Lukic as to the 10th of June, 1992.

7 The witness was proofed by the Office of the Prosecution on the

8 4th and 5th of April, 2009 and the proofing note was disclosed to us

9 advising us of certain changes in the testimony and certain additional

10 information from this witness, in the statements that were offered. This

11 now explanation of this different date is not discussed in any of the

12 exhibits.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the date? What is the --

14 MR. IVETIC: June 10th, 1992 and May 16th of 1992 because there

15 is a report to the Red Cross states that the witness's father and brother

16 disappeared on the 16 the of May, which of course would be of highly

17 great interest to us because that means that the date that is for alibi

18 rebuttal does not apply. This information that is now being elicited

19 from the witness was not in the original documents provided to us, was

20 not in the witness notification and is not in a proofing note; so I would

21 like to know how it is that counsel knows about it, one, and is being

22 permitted now to ask about it having not given notice of it to the

23 Defence when it is a critical issue in this case for this witness and the

24 reason that they are bringing this witness to establish that Milan Lukic

25 was somewhere on the 10th of June, 1992; and it is the first time now

Page 6761

1 that we are hearing this explanation of why the other documentation --

2 some of the other documentation shows that the witness's family members

3 disappeared on a date other than the 10th of June. And I'm just troubled

4 by the fact that it was not disclosed to us in any of the, I believe,

5 it's four statements that were given to us, and the proofing note that

6 was given to us, let alone the witness notification, so it's a matter of

7 now I'm hearing for the first time this explanation, and now I don't know

8 how to proceed with cross-examination on this topic. I was going to

9 bring up the difference in dates and leave it at that but now I might

10 want to do some more investigation. I do not know because I did not have

11 notice of this change -- the material change in the testimony. Thank

12 you.

13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, this certainly not a material change

14 in the testimony. As counsel has noted, there are four prior statements

15 from this witness, one of which was taken by the the ICTY, three others

16 taken in 2007. All four of these statements say that she saw her father

17 and brother taken away and executed on June 10th.

18 Now, what we did in proofing was we looked at these prior

19 statements and the witness told me that there were a couple of minor

20 points that she wanted to change so I provided a proofing note to that

21 effect. Now, she is a viva voce witness so obviously her evidence is

22 going to come when she testifies. I disclosed the exhibit. The

23 discrepancy is apparent on its face. I'm entitled to ask about that and

24 counsel is entitled to cross-examine on that.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed. We agree with the analysis put

Page 6762

1 forward by the Prosecutor, Mr. Ivetic. You can cross-examine on the

2 discrepancy.

3 MS. FRIEDMAN:

4 Q. I am just going to go back to see the last thing that the witness

5 has said so that I ... Okay. So VG-141, you said that you had occasion

6 to attend at an office in Bosnia where you saw this date of May 16th, and

7 at that time you had a conversation about that date. Can you just say --

8 can you just tell the Chamber very briefly what your comment was at that

9 time?

10 A. I told them that the date was incorrect. And that day, the 16th

11 of May, 1992, my brother and father were still alive and with us in the

12 apartment. I told them that the date was incorrect. And I asked them

13 how they came about this piece of information when they were still alive

14 at that time. I told them that they were killed on the 10th of June,

15 1992.

16 The employee in the office told me that all of the events in

17 Visegrad -- well, as the reports were coming in they started drafting and

18 putting their information together as of that date because it was as

19 early as that that people were being taken away in Visegrad.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: And now, Your Honour I have no way of

22 cross-examining this employee of the office who was not here who is not

23 here to testify; and I can't, therefore, cross-examine this witness on a

24 critical point, a critical discrepancy in her evidence on the sole point

25 that she's being brought here.

Page 6763

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, continue.

2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Now, I would ask that we turn to page 5 of the

3 document.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, actually, if we could redact that, please.

11 Thank you.

12 Q. And can you on this -- can you please read out here the date of

13 death. It's again located next to the words Visegrad.

14 A. The 10th of June, 1992. Twice.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MS. FRIEDMAN: I tender this exhibit. I believe it was actually

17 already admitted. Okay. So I tender it now, under seal.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P327 under seal, Your Honours and with

20 your leave on page 4, line 7, the exhibit number should be P326, not

21 P324. Thank you.

22 MS. FRIEDMAN:

23 Q. Finally, VG-141, you've told us that this happened on the 10th of

24 June, 1992. Can you tell us how you remember that it was precisely that

25 date?

Page 6766

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

8 Q. Now, VG-144 [sic] asked who the Milan Lukic that you say came to

9 your apartment on June 10th, 1992, that was your first time seeing this

10 individual; is that accurate?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. And several times during your testimony, you identified

13 Milan Lukic came to the door; it was Milan Lukic driving; it was

14 Milan Lukic on the bridge. Prior to this date of June 10th, 1992, you

15 did not know Milan Lukic personally, did you?

16 A. I did not know him.

17 Q. In fact in your sworn statement under oath to the ICTY

18 Prosecution, you can see that at the time that this man came to your door

19 and took away your family members, even at that time you did not know how

20 this man was called; isn't that correct?

21 A. I did not know what his name was.

22 Q. And the man that came to your door that day, help me out, he

23 didn't introduce himself, did he?

24 A. No. Did he not introduce himself.

25 Q. And your father and your brother, they didn't recognise him and

Page 6767

1 say his name, did they?

2 A. No, they did not.

3 Q. And when that individual came to your door, if I'm correct, you

4 answered the door; is that accurate?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. And I would imagine you only got a brief look at the man, that is

7 to say, several moments?

8 A. I was at the door all that time when my brother and father

9 appeared to talk to him, so it wasn't for as little as a few seconds, but

10 I'd say several minutes.

11 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And in those several minutes, you had

12 occasion to view this man and to view his appearance. Then in your sworn

13 statement so the ICTY Prosecutors at paragraph 4, you said the man was

14 1.8 metres tall, was about 26 to 28 years old with light brown hair. Do

15 you affirm the sworn statement that you gave to the ICTY Prosecutor, the

16 man you saw was aged between 26 years of age and 28 years of age?

17 A. He appeared to be of that age. That's what I could gather.

18 Q. Okay. Now, did you note any birth marks or facial hair on his

19 face?

20 A. No, I did not. He did not have a beard.

21 Q. How about any tattoos on his neck, arms, or any part of his body

22 that was visible, did you see any tattoos?

23 A. I did not. I was looking at his face. I was not paying

24 attention to whether he had any tattoos or not.

25 Q. Did he have -- what about the colour of his eyes, did he have

Page 6768

1 blue eyes, brown eyes, black eyes?

2 A. At that moment I felt such fear that I could not pay attention to

3 the colour of his eyes.

4 Q. That's my point, you were quite scared at that time. A man you

5 didn't know, and, indeed, you didn't know until later that someone told

6 you this was Milan Lukic; is that correct?

7 A. I did not know Milan Lukic, that's correct, and I did not know it

8 was he at the time.

9 Q. Now, am I correct that you were so scared and because of the

10 circumstances when you saw this unknown person at your door, you would be

11 hard-pressed to identify that person and name that person, that being

12 your only encounter with him; is that correct?

13 A. I remember what he looked like well irrespective of the fear I

14 felt. I was fully aware of the person standing before me. I remember

15 the face.

16 Q. Well, the point is, ma'am, the person who told you that this was

17 Milan Lukic, you cannot exclude the possibility that they are mistaken

18 that this was Milan Lukic because, of course, you did not live that other

19 person's life to know exactly what she thought Milan Lukic looked like;

20 isn't that a fact?

21 A. No one told me what Milan Lukic looks like. I was only told that

22 the person who took my brother and father away was Milan Lukic.

23 Q. And again, ma'am, that individual who told you that that was

24 Milan Lukic, you have no way of knowing whether that individual is

25 mistaken or accurate, can you? You have no basis for that?

Page 6769

1 A. The basis for my claim is that Milan Lukic seized Zukic, Behija's

2 vehicle and that he could easily be recognised as the person driving that

3 vehicle. It was that person that came in front of our building and got

4 out of the car.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: How would you have known that Milan Lukic seized

6 Zukic, Behija's vehicle.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me, I didn't

8 understand your question?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm asking you because you told us that the

10 basis for your claim is that Milan Lukic seized Zukic, Behija's vehicle,

11 so I'm asking you what is the -- how did you acquire that information?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Visegrad is a small town, you see.

13 We heard what was going on, and I heard that many people had already been

14 killed by Milan Lukic. I didn't know who Milan Lukic was, but when he

15 turned up at our front door and when he took my brother and father away,

16 and when my neighbours confirmed that that was who the man was because he

17 had been to their flat beforehand, and so my neighbour told me and VG-133

18 said, Yes, Milan Lukic took away my father and brother together with my

19 neighbour. And the vehicle was parked in front of the building so, well,

20 the famous Passat car.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I'll proceed.

22 Q. That's interesting, Witness, because in your statement that

23 you've given here, never before did you identify that you knew it was

24 Milan Lukic because of Behija Zukic's Passat. You never under oath

25 either to the ICTY or to the Bosnian authorities never said that you knew

Page 6770

1 that it was Milan Lukic because of the red Passat.

2 MS. FRIEDMAN: That's actually incorrect. It's inaccurate. I

3 can point to the statement where she says that this was the Passat that

4 was taken from Behija Zukic. And I think she's being clear also today

5 that that was just a final corroborating point.

6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would submit differently, the

7 witness testified she knew that Milan Lukic took this vehicle from Behija

8 Zukic. That is nowhere in any of her statements. And I would ask

9 counsel to show me where it is.

10 MS. FRIEDMAN: Sure. It's in the statement of 2007 to the

11 association -- the February 2007 statement at page 2.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Read what is in that statement.

13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, we will turn to that now.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Read the relevant part. In fact, just let it be

15 placed. Read it for yourself, and let it be placed on ELMO. Do you have

16 that statement.

17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I do, Your Honour, and I stand by what I just

18 said. It does not indicate that she has knowledge that Milan Lukic took

19 this vehicle from Behija Zukic. It identifies the vehicle and Behija

20 Zukic's vehicle. In all of her statements this is the first time now she

21 said she know it's Milan Lukic because he took Behija Zukic's vehicle.

22 This is something that is not in her statement. The statement just says,

23 I saw -- I should probably get the English version, it's easier.

24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Should we place it on the monitor.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, place it on the ELMO.

Page 6771

1 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's then on the 10th page.

2 MR. IVETIC: My copy only has six pages. I believe it's the

3 bottom of the second page.

4 MS. FRIEDMAN: Sorry, I was looking at the other statement where

5 it also says --

6 MR. IVETIC: I looked over the balcony and saw a red Passat car

7 in front of the entrance. I believe that this car was the property of

8 Behija Zukic from Dusce.

9 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would submit that's efficient. She's here to

10 give her full evidence today, we don't know what question were asked

11 during the interviews that led to these past questions.

12 MR. IVETIC: Which is why I'm asking the question. I'm not the

13 one who objected to the question.

14 MS. FRIEDMAN: I didn't object to the question. But I objected

15 to the characterization that she has never mentioned this before. But

16 also there is another statement that we can turn to, it's the March 2007

17 statement where she says, "Dark red Passat vehicle, which I knew was

18 seized from Behija Zukic's family." In any event, further clarification

19 is necessary.

20 MR. IVETIC:

21 Q. Let's clarify that, madam. You said it was notorious and you

22 knew at the time that this vehicle was taken by Milan Lukic. Yet in none

23 of your statements did you link that to your identification of

24 Milan Lukic; isn't that correct?

25 A. I don't know whether it was important for me to say Milan Lukic

Page 6772

1 because I recognise him by the red Passat car.

2 Q. Well, is it your -- is it an important bases of your conclusion

3 that Milan Lukic took your loved ones away from your home on the 10th of

4 June, 1992?

5 A. Well, it's very important as far as I'm concerned.

6 Q. So now do you see why it is important for you to say whether, in

7 fact, your knowledge of it being Milan Lukic is based upon that red

8 vehicle?

9 A. It is well-founded. It was Milan Lukic. How many times do you

10 want me to repeat that, and yes, he did drive Behija Zukic's red Passat.

11 Q. How many times do you see Milan Lukic driving the red Passat, and

12 where is that in your statements?

13 A. I didn't see Milan Lukic until the day when he turned up at my

14 front door, but I had heard that he drove the car and that he had seize

15 the the car, confiscated the car after he had killed Behija Zukic.

16 Q. There has been evidence led in this case, madam, that the red

17 Passat was confiscated by the Visegrad police station. Would that

18 knowledge change your conclusions and the definiteness of your

19 conclusions that Milan Lukic was the individual that you saw on

20 June 10th, 1992?

21 A. I don't understand what you are actually asking me. It was

22 Milan Lukic. How many times do you want me to repeat that.

23 Q. I apologise, Witness, but I am not the person who brought you

24 here today to testify about a very important matter. You were brought

25 here today to testify about the identity of the person that you saw on

Page 6773

1 June 10th, I'm trying to explore how you know that?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

3 MR. GROOME: This is badgering the witness. He is entitled to

4 put whatever question he wants to, but he is not entitled to make this

5 type of statement to a witness.

6 MR. IVETIC: I see nothing wrong with what I said, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: He is exploring the basis of her knowledge,

10 which I think is he entitled to.

11 MR. GROOME: [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Groome, please. Microphone.

13 MR. GROOME: He certainly is entitled to do that, to say I'm not

14 the one who brought you here. This is all badgering the witness,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's proceed.

17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, let me see if I can remember my question.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Friedman and Mr. Groome, even with the

20 misgivings that are associated with in-court identification, I have to

21 observe that you haven't asked this witness whether she is able to

22 identify the accused, whether the person who came to her door on that

23 day, whether she sees that person in court. I know that you are relying

24 on her statement that her neighbour told her, but I wonder whether in

25 light of the practice that you have followed, consistently followed in

Page 6774

1 relation to other witnesses, why you wouldn't have this witness attempt

2 the in-court identification, as I said, even with the misgivings that may

3 be associated with it.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, certainly that question can be put to

5 the witness and the Prosecution is willing to do that. Given that she

6 only saw him for the first time and it was a rather limited opportunity,

7 we thought that the jurisprudence of the Tribunal would clearly

8 characterise her as a identification witness and wouldn't place much

9 weight, if any weight on the in-court identification. Whereas other

10 witness that we have asked that question to, and we haven't every witness

11 to do that, but other witnesses we've asked that to, at least there was

12 some basis for a Chamber fining that they were recognition witnesses,

13 defined by the jurisprudence of the Tribunal and entitled to make such an

14 observation but happy to put the question to her.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: I wouldn't require. It's a matter for you.

16 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I would submit now that the

17 Prosecution had their chance it would be improper for them to pose that

18 question now seeing as how the witness has seen me consulting with my

19 clients, therefore, has an independent basis apart from being able to

20 identify him -- at to -- ID him in court now. They had their chance

21 they didn't use it, Your Honours.

22 Q. Madam, I am I'd like to get back to this issue of how it is that

23 you're so certain -- how you are so certain, not other people but you are

24 so certain that was Milan Lukic. Am I correct that you heard a lot of

25 bad things about Milan Lukic?

Page 6775

1 A. Not a lot of bad things, just that he had killed a lot of people,

2 and my conclusion is that those are bad things from personal experience.

3 Q. So your entire knowledge of Milan Lukic is based on what other

4 people say?

5 MS. FRIEDMAN: This has been asked and answered, and also she has

6 stated a knowledge based on that day.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic, move on.

8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

9 Q. Let's talk about that knowledge. In paragraph 6 of your

10 statement to the office Office of the Prosecution -- pardon me, paragraph

11 7, you talk about half an hour later going down stairs to your

12 neighbour's apartment, I won't mention a name; but you specifically

13 indicate there that when your neighbour told you it was Milan Lukic, "I

14 did not know how he knew." Is that accurate, that you do not know how

15 your neighbour knew it was Milan Lukic?

16 A. I didn't know how he knew at the time that it was Milan Lukic.

17 Q. I return to the question that I asked previously, not knowing how

18 your neighbour knew, not having been there when your neighbour met

19 Milan Lukic or knowing the circumstances when they met Milan Lukic, would

20 you --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down. Would the

22 counsel please slow down.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, the interpreters are asking you to

24 slow down.

25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 6776

1 Q. Let me begin again, madam. I return to the question I that asked

2 previously, if you did not know how your neighbour knew it was

3 Milan Lukic, if you had not lived your neighbour's life and been there

4 when they say they met Milan Lukic or knowing the circumstances of how

5 they met Milan Lukic, would you agree with me that you cannot exclude the

6 possibility that your neighbour is mistaken and that individual that came

7 on 10th of June, 1992, was someone other than Milan Lukic? Someone whose

8 age is 26 to 28 years of age?

9 MS. FRIEDMAN: I do have to object that this was asked and

10 answered because she has had that particular question put to her: How

11 can you exclude the possibility given than you are not in your

12 neighbour's mind. I think at this point it does border on badgering the

13 witness.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he has a right to put it. Let's hear

15 the answer.

16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I gave my statements in

18 Visoko, a picture was shown to me, a photograph, of Milan Lukic when he

19 was younger, as he was when he came to the door of my flat. Now, if what

20 my neighbour told me is not enough, that that man was Milan Lukic, on the

21 picture, I was able to recognise that that was the same person.

22 MR. IVETIC:

23 Q. That's interesting. How come you hadn't mentioned the picture

24 earlier? And what statement is that in, because I have no information as

25 to that?

Page 6777

1 MR. IVETIC: Can the Prosecution help me where that is.

2 MS. FRIEDMAN: The Prosecution has no information of this either.

3 MR. IVETIC:

4 Q. Madam, you've been through a lot and this isn't getting any

5 easier. It is not helpful to insert new material to try and bolster your

6 identification.

7 MS. FRIEDMAN: I object to that.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's out of order. That's out of order.

9 MR. IVETIC: I'm putting my case to the witness, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I'm not allowing that. I'm interested in

11 the photograph. You must ask her about that and then she can be

12 re-examined on it. The fact that she doesn't say so before doesn't mean

13 it can't be raised here in court. It's for us to determine what weight

14 to attach to it.

15 MR. IVETIC: I agree, Your Honour, and I've been asking her now

16 15 times, how does she know it's Milan Lukic? She mentioned the car,

17 which she didn't mention before. She mentioned her neighbours

18 [Overlapping speakers] ...

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... she has now mentioned

20 a photograph, a picture. Let's hear about that.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. When was this photograph shown to you, madam, and by whom?

23 A. When I came to Visoko, after the convoy, I gave a statement there

24 to that police there, the public security station in Visoko. I gave a

25 statement there, and they asked me -- well, they asked me the same thing,

Page 6778

1 how did I know that it was Milan Lukic, and they had some photographs

2 there and on one of them was Milan Lukic. I pointed him out and they

3 said, Yes, that's Milan Lukic; so that confirms it. All your questions,

4 that my neighbour was quite right when he said that it was, indeed,

5 Milan Lukic.

6 Q. Why didn't you mention this to the Office of the Prosecutor,

7 madam, if it was so strong evidence that it was Milan Lukic?

8 A. Well, I didn't think there was any need to, to talk about a

9 picture, when all my statements were based on the fact that it was

10 Milan Lukic. Witness VG-133 told me the same thing, that it was him.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I want to focus on his

12 picture?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute, please.

14 How many photographs were shown to you by the police?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one. From that year, 1992,

16 the way that Milan Lukic looked at the time.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: They showed you one photograph?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you then identified that photograph as

20 Milan Lukic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22 MR. IVETIC: Can I continue.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

24 MR. IVETIC:

25 Q. Did they tell you that was Milan Lukic in the photograph when

Page 6779

1 they showed it to you?

2 A. They asked me whether I could recognise the man who came to the

3 door, and they showed several photographs, and I recognised the person

4 who came to my door and then they said that it was Milan Lukic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Sorry I'm confused.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did they show you several photographs or one

7 photograph?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, several photographs.

9 Several photographs of different people.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. That wasn't clear to me by your earlier

11 answer, yes.

12 MR. IVETIC: Nor to myself, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, this identification of the photograph, that's not included

14 in any of the four statements that I have from you. Why did you not

15 recount that -- you are very detailed in your statements as to how you

16 believe it was Milan Lukic, you identify your neighbours telling you, you

17 identify all that, yet you leave out this critical point of the

18 photograph that you say was shown to you in Visoko. How do you explain

19 that?

20 A. As far as I was concerned, it was sufficient for me that my

21 neighbours had confirmed that it was Mr. Milan Lukic, that that is who

22 the man was. And I didn't need to talk about that photograph, but if you

23 insist ...

24 Q. Do you recall what the individual was wearing in the photograph

25 that you identified as being Milan Lukic in Visoko?

Page 6780

1 A. It was a camouflage, SMB, olive green uniform. He had no

2 insignia, no cap on his head, just his hair. It wasn't black and white

3 because it was a camouflage uniform, but he didn't have any insignia, any

4 cap. His hair was a little disheveled, is that enough?

5 Q. Was a written statement generated by the police in Visoko with

6 respect to your photo identification of Mr. Milan Lukic as you've now

7 testified to for the the first time?

8 A. I really can't remember.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, your next question should have been:

10 How were the other persons in the the photograph dressed?

11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will defer to you.

12 Q. Could you answer the Judge's question, how were the persons in

13 the other photographs that were shown to you dressed?

14 A. Well, they were all JNA. JNA uniforms of the SMB or olive green

15 type.

16 Q. So Mr. Lukic's photograph was the only one in a camouflage

17 uniform that you were shown?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6796

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Friedman.

2 Witness, that concludes your evidence. We are grateful to you

3 for giving it, and you may now leave.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution now calls VG-136.

7 Mr. Farr will be conducting the examination.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS VG-136

13 [Witness answered though interpreter]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please sit and Mr. Farr, you may commence.

15 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examination by Mr. Farr:

17 Q. Good morning, Witness 136, can you hear me well?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. Witness, the Chamber has ordered certain protective measures for

20 you today and these are that we'll refer you to as VG-136 during the

21 course of your testimony, and that the image of your face will be

22 distorted so that you cannot be recognised. Therefore, please try not to

23 mention any details such as your name or the names of members of your

24 family by which you could you identified. Is that okay?

25 A. I understood that.

Page 6797

1 MR. FARR: Could I ask the usher to please provide the pseudonym

2 sheet to the witness.

3 Q. Witness, please look at this sheet in front of you, can you

4 confirm that the name and birth listed on that sheet are your name and

5 date of birth?

6 A. Yes, it is correct.

7 MR. FARR: I would ask you to sign the sheet that the pseudonym

8 sheet be then shown to Defence counsel and to the Chamber, and I would

9 tender it as a Prosecution exhibit under seal.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P328, under seal, Your Honours.

11 MR. FARR:

12 Q. Witness, what is your nationality and religion?

13 A. I'm a Bosniak of Muslim religion.

14 Q. Without mentioning the specific village, can you please tell the

15 Chamber by municipality you lived in at the beginning of 1992?

16 A. In early 1992, I lived in the municipality of Visegrad.

17 Q. Do you still live in Visegrad municipality today?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you remember the date that you permanently left Visegrad?

20 A. I'll never forget that date. It was the 14th of June, 1992. The

21 day and what happened on that day changed my whole life, and I will

22 remember it to the day I die.

23 Q. Can you please tell me where you were on the morning of 14 June,

24 1992?

25 A. On the 14th of June, 1992, pursuant to orders from Vojvoda

Page 6798

1 Ljubomir Ljupko Tasic of the village of Smirjece, Zagre, Velatovo,

2 Gornji, Donji Dubovik, the inhabitants had to leave pursuant to his

3 orders. And I was by the main road with the inhabitants of my village,

4 with my family, following orders, we had to go down to that main road and

5 to wait for buses organised by Ljupko Tasic to drive us in a convoy to

6 Olovo Kladanj.

7 Q. On the morning of 14th June, 1992, where were you when you first

8 woke up?

9 A. I was in the village. Dubovik.

10 Q. And you've just said, I believe, that at some point in that

11 morning you left your village, you left that village; is that correct?

12 A. We left the village and went down to the main road, and that part

13 belonged to Dubovik, and it was called Mangalin Han, which was where the

14 bus-stop was for the local bus routes and intercity bus routes.

15 Q. What did you find when you got down to the bus-stop at Mangalin

16 Han?

17 A. Going down the bus station and the road took us through the

18 forest, we were followed by Serb soldiers and down at the bus station, we

19 found a lot of other Serb soldiers there who were all neighbours from

20 Veletovo, Bosanska Jagodina, and among them I recognised Ljupko Tasic,

21 Dusko Maric, Dusan Simic, Zoran Gacic and his brother, Zoran and Pero

22 Gacic too. And some other soldiers who were there whose names I can't

23 remember just now and I might not have even known their names.

24 Q. Okay. And what happened after you arrived at the bus station and

25 found these soldiers?

Page 6799

1 A. We didn't wait long. The first bus turned up from the direction

2 of Bosanska Jagodina, so I and my family got into the bus. I don't know

3 if everybody could fit because there were people in there already from

4 the Zagre, Smirjece, Velatovo villages up there, and anyway, we got into

5 the bus and our bus set off for Visegrad, in the direction of Visegrad.

6 And we arrived in Visegrad in the square in front of the hotel which was

7 called hotel Visegrad at the time which was right near the old bridge

8 that we call "tuprija" [phoen].

9 Q. Can you please tell me the ethnicity of other passengers in your

10 bus?

11 A. In my bus most of the people there were Muslims, Bosniaks, and

12 there were one or two Serb soldiers as well. In my particular bus, there

13 was someone that came, that boarded the bus at Mangalin Han, but I see

14 who that was and he was like an escort.

15 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the people who were in the bus

16 with you?

17 A. Yes, I do. In my bus were the following: Ferid Spahic,

18 Esad Kustura, Musan Celik, Smail Zukic, and his family. There was my

19 husband and Hasim Delibasic and his mother, his wife, and three minor

20 children; they were under the age of five, all three of them. Then there

21 was Fatah Kasapovic [phoen], Cena Kasapovic [phoen], Mina Kasapovic

22 [phoen] and her child; there was the Hodja, the famous Hodja;

23 Ibrahim Ibisevic [phoen] and his wife; Ahmedspahic, Amir [phoen] and so

24 on; Hamed Ahmedspahic [phoen] and Abid [phoen] they were two brothers.

25 Q. The transcript hasn't picked up all of the names did you just say

Page 6800

1 that Ferid Spahic and Esad Kustura were the among the people on the bus

2 with you?

3 A. Yes, yes, they were. Ferid Spahic and Esad Kustura among all the

4 others, yes, they were among all the others.

5 Q. Thank you. What happened after the buses arrived at the main

6 square? Excuse me, approximately what time did you buses arrive in the

7 main square in Visegrad?

8 A. Between 7.00 and 8.00 in the morning.

9 Q. And what did you see when you arrived in the main square in

10 Visegrad?

11 A. When we arrived it at the main square in Visegrad there were lots

12 of Serb soldiers in various uniforms there was the SMB olive green type

13 uniforms camouflage ones with red berets on their head some of them.

14 There was a lot of Muslim population by the department school called

15 Visegrad Junke [phoen]. Well, that's it.

16 Q. And how many vehicles did you see in the main square of Visegrad?

17 A. As soon as I arrived, I don't know how many of there were in the

18 convoy from Bosanska Jagodina to Visegrad, I don't know how many buses

19 because I got into the first one so I don't know how many buses actually

20 arrived from that direction, but as there were a lot of Muslim people

21 there from the villages surrounding Visegrad, they brought in more buses

22 from the bus-stop so in the square there were eight buses and four

23 trucks. And all of those buses were full of people, full of the people

24 from the surrounding villages in Visegrad municipality.

25 Q. Thank you. And what happened while you were on the main square

Page 6801

1 of Visegrad?

2 A. Soon after we arrived there and when the buses were filled and

3 the trucks too, a Serb soldier entered all the buses including my own and

4 ordered that lists be made of all the passengers from my bus and from the

5 other buses. I don't know who was in charge of doing this in the other

6 buses, but anyway, in our bus, in my bus, Zulkic, Smajla [phoen] was the

7 woman -- or rather was the man who was in charge of listing all the

8 passengers, their first name, last names and date of birth. And when

9 they made this list, when he made this list, a soldier came up and took

10 the list away to the Vilina Vlas Hotel and that's what happened in the

11 other busses too, with the other list.

12 Q. And what happened after that?

13 A. When the soldier came, he said to us that we could decide whether

14 we wanted to go to Kladovo, Olovo, or Skopje, Macedonia; and as there

15 were people in the buses who had family in Skopje, we decided to go to

16 Skopje, our bus did, but they told us that we would nonetheless be going

17 to Olovo.

18 Q. And after that what happened?

19 A. While we were waiting for the column to be formed and for all of

20 us to set out, my bus -- well, Milan Lukic came into my bus, boarded my

21 bus, and he said, Is Esad Kustura here? And he was, I said Kustura was

22 there, in the back of the bus; so he said, Yes I am, I'm here. And he

23 said, Well, where are you my school friend? Just come out and go to the

24 SUP for five minutes to give a statement. I didn't know Milan Lukic up

25 until then and I would -- would that I had never met him even then; and

Page 6802

1 there were people from his area, Zupa, from where he hailed and men there

2 too that were younger than him that knew him, and I head them shouting

3 Milan Lukic, Milan Lukic; and we held Esad by the legs to prevent him

4 from going out. But he made his way through the bus who was -- which was

5 packed jam. There must have been about 70 passengers in my particular

6 bus. Anyway, he made his way through this crowd and just before he

7 reached Milan, he took hold of the handles of the bus and swung himself,

8 he had on a blue shirt and a bandage on his left hand. I could see that

9 very well because I was sitting in the third row seat of the bus, and he

10 needed one step to reach --

11 Q. Just I am sorry for interrupting you. But you said, "... he took

12 hold of the handles of the bus and swung himself, he had on a blue shirt

13 and a bandage on his left hand." Who are you referring to?

14 A. I'm referring to Milan Lukic. Milan Lukic is who I mean. He was

15 wearing a navy blue trousers and when Esad needed just one step to reach

16 him, Ljubomir Tasic stepped on to the bus, Ljupko, his nickname is

17 Ljupko, and said, What are you doing there? Meaning Milan and he just

18 pulled him out, literally pulled him out of the bus and they went off

19 some five or six metres were joined by Risto Perisic, and judging by the

20 movements that Ljupko made with his hands he was hysterical, he was

21 opening and shutting his mouth, well, I saw that he was actually probably

22 swearing at him for upsetting his plan with respect it to the

23 organisation of the convoy.

24 And Risto Perisic, he was saying something too. I couldn't hear

25 what he was saying because I was in the bus after all and this was some

Page 6803

1 five or six metres away. And this exchange lasted for about five or six

2 minutes and from somewhere Dragan Tomic came up to them and the four of

3 them left and went to the Vilina Vlas Hotel.

4 Q. Thank you, witness. You've said that you did not know

5 Milan Lukic before this day; is that correct?

6 A. I did not. No, that is correct. Perhaps I bumped into him in

7 town sometime, but I didn't know who he was or that it was him. Anyway,

8 he was tall --

9 Q. You've also testified that as soon as he got on the bus, other

10 passengers started saying it's Milan Lukic, it's Milan Lukic.

11 A. That's right, yes.

12 Q. Do you remember specifically the names of any of those people?

13 A. Ferid Spahic said it, Musan Celik said it, some women and young

14 girls, some young girls who knew him said it, probably through their

15 schooling or whatever. And Esad Kustura, he knew him personally, of

16 course.

17 Q. You mentioned that Esad Kustura referred to Milan Lukic as his

18 school mate. Do you know whether they, in fact, went to school together?

19 A. I don't know. They are a younger generation than me. But

20 probably they went to secondary school together, that's probable, because

21 it couldn't have been primary school. Milan Lukic was from the Prelovo

22 local commune, whereas Esad Kustura belonged to Visegrad, or rather his

23 village did. So probably it was in second school that they were

24 together.

25 Q. Do you know approximating what year Esad Kustura was born?

Page 6804

1 A. Esad Kustura might have been born in 1968, 69, thereabouts.

2 Either 1968 or 1969.

3 Q. Okay. This person who was identified to you as Milan Lukic, can

4 you please describe him in terms of his height, his build, hair colour,

5 eye colour, if you remember those things?

6 A. He was tall, between 1 metre 70 and 80. Perhaps even taller than

7 1 metre 80. He had dark hair, sort of black. He was neither thin nor

8 fat, of medium build. I think his eyes were black too.

9 Q. And I think that --

10 A. Or dark.

11 Q. And I think you've already mentioned some of this, but can you

12 please describe how he was dressed on that occasion?

13 A. He was wearing light blue shirt with his sleeves turned up, and

14 dark blue trousers, navy blue trousers, and he had a belt on his

15 trousers.

16 Q. Was he armed as far as you could see?

17 A. I didn't see anything. He might have had a pistol at the back

18 somewhere, but I didn't see any weapon.

19 Q. Was he wearing anything on his head?

20 A. No, no. His hair was cut short and he was bare headed.

21 Q. Did you see any insignia on his shirt or any other article of

22 clothing?

23 A. No, I didn't, no.

24 Q. You've said that after he got off the bus, Milan Lukic had a

25 conversation with Ljupko Tasic and Risto Perisic. Approximately how long

Page 6805

1 did that conversation last?

2 A. Not long. Perhaps five or six minutes.

3 Q. And after that conversation, what did those men do?

4 A. They went off together to the Vilina Vlas Hotel, and the hotel

5 was where the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi were put up.

6 Q. Where was that hotel that you've just identified located?

7 A. Right near the square.

8 Q. The hotel that you've identified as the Vilina Vlas Hotel, you

9 are referring to a hotel that's --

10 A. Sorry, not Vilina Vlas, I meant Visegrad hotel. I made a mistake

11 there. Visegrad hotel.

12 Q. Okay. In any event, the hotel right next to the main square; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. How far away were you from this person that was identified to you

16 as Milan Lukic when you were -- when he got on to your bus?

17 A. Well, perhaps a metre and a half, not further than that because I

18 was sitting in the third seat. One and a half to 2 metres. I don't know

19 what the distance is between the seats, the rows.

20 Q. What were the lighting conditions?

21 A. Good. The light was good.

22 Q. How long did the buses and trucks that you've referred to remain

23 on the main square of Visegrad?

24 A. I think the column, the convoy left between 10 and 11.00.

25 Q. Can you describe the formation of the convoy as it left the main

Page 6806

1 square?

2 A. At the head of the column, there was a police car, and there was

3 a flag of the International Red Cross put up. And behind that there was

4 a 2-tonne TAM truck, I don't know what firm it belonged to. Then came

5 the buses and the trucks were at the end of the column, so they took us

6 off in the correction of Olovo and the Red Cross flag as they had planned

7 to do and decided to do.

8 Q. What was the first place the convoy went to after leaving the

9 main square?

10 A. My bus went to the bus-stop to tank up with fuel, and upon

11 returning from the bus-stop we joined up with the column again, the

12 convoy again. The first place we stopped at was Garca or Mezalin, but I

13 call it Mezalin right up to the new bridge. I call all that area

14 Mezalin. Anyway, my bus stopped before the bridge. My driver was from

15 the Centrotrans company, I don't know his name, but he had a moustache

16 and his hair was thinning, and Radomir Limic, nicknamed Burdus another

17 Centrotrans driver came into the bus, boarded the bus. He had a

18 "sajkaca," a Serbian-style cap on his head, and there was a cockade on

19 it, on the forehead, and he was armed with an automatic rifle that is

20 called a dobosar, which is an old type of rifle. And he was wearing an

21 SMB type uniform shirt and trousers. When he boarded the bus, he turned

22 towards us and looked at us like this, and I noticed that his shirt and

23 his trousers, his clothing was bloody. He sat down and he placed that

24 automatic rifle on the seat. He sat down and as soon as we set off he

25 started abusing us and he had lisp point when he spoke even he said, See

Page 6807

1 how we are driving you, Alija wouldn't drive our Serbs, so we crossed the

2 bridge.

3 Q. Thank you. And sorry to interrupt, and after you crossed the

4 bridge, where did the convoy go next?

5 A. We went off in the direction of Lijeska.

6 Q. And did you notice anything unusual en route to Lijeska?

7 A. The whole way from the institute for retarded children, there

8 were Serb soldiers along the road, all the way along the route. They

9 wore different uniforms, both camouflage and the SMB type; and as we were

10 passing through the forest and it's a bendy road, anyway, I happened to

11 see in a pit beside the road a woman, a Muslim whom who had been killed.

12 I know she was Muslim because she had pantaloons, the type of pantaloons

13 that Muslim women wore. They were multicoloured blue and white and her

14 head was swollen like this and not far from her, I saw a thin man, he was

15 dead too and he was -- he fell down in a sort of, he was crawling along,

16 so he fell down in that position. He had brown pullover on and a shirt.

17 And not from far from the man, I saw a horse that had been killed that

18 was lying dead by the road and by a sharp bend, I saw a terrible thing

19 and I'm sure there are witnesses who saw that too. I saw I came upon a

20 terrible image, two Serb soldiers, one of them was kneeling or squatting

21 and was roasting a man whose clothing had already been burnt off. The

22 other one was standing there and drinking something from a beer bottle,

23 glass beer bottle, probably alcohol.

24 It was a terrible site to behold. And after that we reached

25 Lijeska, which is where the busses stopped. I don't know it was whether

Page 6808

1 Donja or Gornja Lijeska because I had never been there before and then

2 the people who were escorting us --

3 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, witness, I just wanted to ask you what

4 happened when you arrived in Lijeska?

5 A. The escort Nenad Pecikoza a colleague from work of mine got off

6 the bus to get some sandwiches, he went into a small building, I don't

7 know it might have been a school, it was on my right-hand side or some

8 other side. Anyway, he went in there to fetch some sandwiches for the

9 driver, and that's what the others from the other buses did. They went

10 to collect the sandwiches, and we didn't stay there long, just 10 to 15

11 minutes, 20 at the most. I'm not quite sure how long, but anyway, we

12 didn't have time to well, we didn't look at the time or take care -- but

13 we took over the sandwiches. Or rather he took over the sandwiches.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Try to give short answers.

15 MR. FARR:

16 Q. Thank you, witness. As His Honour as just mentioned, our time

17 here is very limited so what I would like to ask you now is just what was

18 the final destination of the convoy on that day?

19 A. The final destination was Isevic Brdo or Isevic hill, which was a

20 place that did not belong to Olovo or Sokolac municipality either.

21 That's what it was called, Isevic Brdo.

22 Q. And what happened when the convoy arrived in Isevic Brdo?

23 A. When the convoy arrived in Isevic Brdo, Zeljko Tasic boarded my

24 bus. He was an active duty policeman from the station in Visegrad and he

25 had on his head a black "sajkaca" or Serbian hat; and he said that all

Page 6809

1 men from 16 to 65 should remain the bus, whereas the women, children and

2 people who were over that age should get off the bus, and that was what

3 was done in other buses too. But it was Zeljko who came into my bus and

4 told us that.

5 Q. Can you tell me how you know this person, Zeljko Tasic?

6 A. I knew Zeljko Tasic from my childhood because he was a neighbour

7 of mine and he was an active duty policeman as well, so that as I say,

8 Visegrad is a small town. There weren't many policeman and I knew them

9 through life, through family connections, and so on and so forth. So

10 I've known him since childhood. Early childhood.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Are you aware of any convoys that left

12 Visegrad in the days that followed the day that you left?

13 A. Yes. Two more convoys came from Visegrad. I don't remember the

14 exact date, but they followed us. We were in a village called Kolakovic

15 for two days and then we were transported to Olovo and during that period

16 two convoys arrived.

17 Q. Can you even estimate what the dates of those convoys were, if

18 you are able?

19 A. Well, it's like this, we arrived on the 14th. We were up there

20 for two days, so it might have been the 17th. Between the 17th and 21st

21 is when both arrived.

22 MR. FARR: All right. Thank you. I have a map here which is

23 Prosecution 65 ter number 176. It is in e-court, but I'd like to work

24 with it in hard copy because there's a lot of detail and I think it would

25 be easier for everyone to see. Could I ask the usher to please provide

Page 6810

1 copies to Defence counsel and the Bench and then place one copy on the

2 ELMO.

3 Q. Witness, please take a moment to familiarise yourself with this

4 map.

5 MR. FARR: And if we could start by displaying the right-hand

6 side, sort of from the right-hand border. Yeah, that's good. Great.

7 Q. Witness, are you familiar with the area depicted on this map?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. Does it depict some of the locations we've talked about today?

10 A. I can point those out to you. This is where Bosanska Jagodina

11 is.

12 Q. Sorry, since our time is so limited, I would just ask you to wait

13 for my questions.

14 You mentioned that you were in the village of Dubovik on the

15 morning of 14th June 1992. Do you see Dubovik on this map?

16 A. Here it is.

17 Q. With the assistance of the usher, could I ask you to please place

18 the letter D on the map beside the word Dubovik?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Okay. And could you circle that, please?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. You've also mentioned events that happened in

23 Visegrad town. Can you find Visegrad town on this map?

24 A. Here it is.

25 Q. Could you please place the letter V beside Visegrad town and

Page 6811

1 circle that?

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And finally you mentioned a location named Lijeska. Can you find

4 Lijeska on this map and if you can please place an L beside it and circle

5 the L.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Now, witness, after looking at this map --

8 A. There is Gornja and Donja.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you, so I see that you've made two Ls on the map in

10 the location of Lijeska.

11 After looking at this map, can you identify the road that the

12 convoy you were on travelled from Visegrad town to Lijeska.

13 A. Yes, I can. Here.

14 Q. Can I ask you to please trace -- to please trace with the pen the

15 a line along the road that you followed on that day from Visegrad town to

16 Lijeska?

17 A. Should I follow the road?

18 Q. If the convoy followed the road, then please follow the road.

19 Please show the route of the convoy.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. And finally I would just ask you to write your

22 pseudonym VG-136 at the bottom of the map.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. One further question, earlier in your testimony you mentioned

25 that along one of the roads you were travelling there were Serb soldiers

Page 6816

1 then.

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

5 Q. Now, madam, I'd like to talk with you a little bit about this

6 individual that came on the bus that you say is Milan Lukic that you

7 never knew before the date in question, et cetera. Am I correct, looking

8 at your proofing notes, that is to say the corrections that you made with

9 the Office of the Prosecutor, that the Milan Lukic that you claim got on

10 the bus had sleeves of his shirt rolled up such that you could see his

11 bare arms?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And now, other Prosecution witnesses that have testified before

14 this Tribunal, have mentioned some sort of double eagle tattoo on the

15 arms of the Milan Lukic that they identified. Do you recall seeing such

16 a tattoo on this individual who you claim is Milan Lukic?

17 A. I did not see it. I can't tell you I did when I didn't. I only

18 saw the bandage, and it was because the bus was swaying while going

19 through the curves. I saw no tattoos.

20 Q. Now, did this individual who got on to the bus that you claim as

21 Milan Lukic, did he announce or introduce himself, or is your testimony

22 as to his identity related, based solely upon the whisperings of other

23 passengers on the bus?

24 A. Yes. People were whispering. I didn't know him. Had I known

25 him, I would have recognised him.

Page 6817

1 Q. Let me clarify. So is the sole bases of your identification of

2 Milan Lukic the whispering of other people on the bus?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, with respect to these people that were whispering, you have

5 no way of knowing whether they were mistaken or accurate as to this being

6 Milan Lukic; is that correct?

7 A. How could they be wrong if they knew him? They can't say it was

8 me when they knew it was him. They had to say it was that person. They

9 could not have picked just any name. They must have known him. Had I

10 known him, I would have been aware that it was he who was on the bus.

11 Q. So you are speculating that because they used his name, they must

12 know him; isn't that correct?

13 A. I'm not speculating. It was the people who kept saying

14 Milan Lukic, Milan Lukic; and they tried to make him stay on the bus. I

15 guess some of them knew him personally.

16 Q. Ma'am, do you know that there's been evidence led in this trial

17 that Milan Lukic left Visegrad sometime during his third or fourth year

18 of high school and did not return to Visegrad for several years. Does

19 that effect your speculation as to whether persons knew him or could

20 perhaps be mistaken? How can you be so sure?

21 A. Many people left after the fourth or fifth grade and then

22 returned to Bosnia in 1992.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, we'll take the break and please

24 remember the time-limit.

25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just a brief matter before we -- I'm

Page 6818

1 going to ask the Chamber to consider something over the break. I've just

2 received an e-mail from the interpreter who has been sitting with VG-022,

3 the next witness. He is a protected witness who is coming back to

4 testify briefly about two matters. He has asked the interpret to convey

5 to me, which I now convey to the Court, he is asking whether it's

6 possible for his voice to be distorted. The last time he testified he

7 says that everyone knew who he was by his voice, so he is asking would

8 the Chamber consider allowing him to have his voice distorted for his

9 testimony on that occasion. I'll ask for the Chamber to consider that

10 over the break.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will.

12 MR. IVETIC: One addition to that then if you are going to

13 consider that. If he has already testified as VG-022, they know who he

14 is, this whole discussion is revealing who he is and he should be under a

15 different pseudonym.

16 MR. GROOME: I'll consider that, Your Honour, I'll discuss that

17 whether it's necessary -- I'm just afraid of the confusion it may cause

18 changing pseudonyms midstream.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour, it looked like you were

24 about so say something, I was waiting for you.

25 Q. Ma'am, I'd like to finish up a few more questions with the time

Page 6819

1 in the bus in the individual which you claim was Milan Lukic came on

2 board before moving on to some other topics. Now, from your testimony as

3 to Mr. Esad Kustura, I believe you said you had to travel through the

4 crowd, and there were about 70 passengers on the bus. I got the

5 impression that Mr. Kustura was sitting at the back of the bus; is that

6 accurate?

7 A. Yes. He wasn't seated, but he was standing in the rear of the

8 bus behind me.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, you have 20 minutes and we have to

10 apply the time strictly. I want the parties to bear that in mind.

11 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that, Your Honour.

12 Q. With respect to where he was standing at the back end of the bus,

13 approximately how far was that from where you and the other individual we

14 mentioned in closed session were standing?

15 A. Perhaps 2 metres behind me or even less.

16 Q. And if I can ask you, you indicated that persons were tugging at

17 his legs trying to keep him from advancing towards the front end of the

18 bus. Who were these persons, and how many, and where were they seated?

19 A. We all did. Even I was trying to stop him since he is a cousin

20 of mine. I tried to tug at his pants to stop him. He held a leather

21 jacket in his hand. Everyone was trying to stop him, although I cannot

22 tell you everyone by their names but basically everyone was trying to

23 prevent him from getting off the bus, mainly women, and girls who were

24 there.

25 Q. Let me try to understand something, you said even I tried to tug

Page 6820

1 at his pants to stop him. Why would you do that if your testimony was

2 that you didn't know who this person was that came on the bus, you didn't

3 know whether that person was there to help, Mr. Kustura, you didn't know

4 any of that why would you --

5 MR. FARR: Your Honour, that's not completely accurate as to what

6 her testimony is. Her testimony is that she believed the person was

7 Milan Lukic based on what all the other people on the bus had told her.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.

9 MR. IVETIC:

10 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you it this way at the time that you

11 tugged at Mr. Kustura's pant leg, did you know it was Mr. Milan Lukic who

12 was calling him?

13 A. Yes, I did. I heard it from the people who said it was

14 Milan Lukic. According to their words, I knew it was Milan Lukic. They

15 must have known him since they were saying it was him.

16 Q. My point is, why were you tugging at his pant sleeve? If it was

17 a friend of his calling him, you had no idea to know this individual was

18 not going to help them. Why did you make the decision to tug at this

19 gentleman's pant leg?

20 A. You know what, I heard a lot of ugly things about Milan Lukic and

21 the things he had done. There were people who went through some things

22 because of him, and it is for that reason that I believed he would do

23 harm to this man. I was not an observer, witness or participant in any

24 of his acts. I did not see those things. I only heard it from other

25 people, and that's why I was afraid that he would hurt this person as

Page 6821

1 well.

2 Q. Since you did not know Milan Lukic before he stepped on the bus,

3 how long did it take for these people to tell you that it was Milan Lukic

4 to tell about all these horrible things that Milan Lukic had said and

5 done? How long did it take for these people to tell you these bad things

6 about Milan Lukic while Mr. Kustura was walking up to the bus?

7 MR. FARR: Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.

9 MR. FARR: I think that counsel needs to clarify when she heard

10 the ugly things about Milan Lukic. I don't think it was her testimony

11 that she heard them all after he got on the bus. I think he's assuming

12 something that is not in evidence.

13 MR. IVETIC: Then Your Honours she can clarify on me. She had

14 started to answer before Mr. --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down.

16 MR. IVETIC: [Previous translation continues] ... she did not

17 know this individual. She did not know Milan Lukic until other people

18 told her it was Milan Lukic. She testified she didn't know anything

19 about him. So now, all of a sudden, she knows stuff about him. This is

20 a very interesting development. I think I am a entitled to -- and I

21 think I'm entitled to pursue it.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Farr, you can raise this issue in

23 re-examination. Yes, go ahead.

24 MR. IVETIC:

25 Q. Now, madam, could you please complete your answer and tell me

Page 6822

1 what is it that you learned and how long it took for these people who

2 were telling you that -- introducing you to Milan Lukic, essentially at

3 that time on the bus, how long it took them to tell you all these bad

4 things about Milan Lukic that you now say you know?

5 A. Sir, I never said in any of my statements that I knew what he had

6 done. I only said that I did not know him until that time. As for the

7 stories, I had heard them before leaving Visegrad on the 14th of June. I

8 heard those from other people, and I don't want to discuss that because I

9 did not participate in any of his crimes. I did not observe them, and he

10 never heard me, therefore I cannot testify to his acts.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you didn't answer my

12 question. From whom and when?

13 A. I can't tell you that and I don't want to talk about that. I

14 don't want to talk about his deeds and I'd rather not answer your

15 question.

16 Q. You have testified here under oath that you did not know

17 Milan Lukic before he stepped on the bus. You did not know of him. You

18 also testified that you pulled your --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

20 microphone.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, if you look at the record, you'll

22 see the interpreters are complaining.

23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours, just mindful of the time.

24 Q. Madam, you have testified here under oath and under penalty of

25 perjury, that you did not know of Milan Lukic before you stepped on the

Page 6823

1 bus. You also testified under oath and under penalty of perjury, do you

2 understand what those things mean, first of all, penalty of perjury?

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it's been said repeatedly to this

4 witness, I would ask that the Court if such instructions need to be given

5 to the witness that they be given by the Court. The witness has given an

6 affirmation before she gave her evidence here and this constant badgering

7 of does she realise she is under the penalties of perjury, I would ask

8 that counsel be directed to refrain from such language of the witness.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, had Mr. Groome refrained from such

10 language with our witnesses, I could see his point, but they used the

11 most foulest of accusations against Defence witnesses in this case,

12 Your Honour. The most foulest. And, therefore, I take umbrage that

13 Mr. Groome repeatedly stepping up on these witnesses and saying that I'm

14 badgering to them. I'm entitled to put my case to them, I'm entitled to

15 cross-examine and confront them and confront them with the evidence,

16 which I'm doing.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll determine whether you badger.

18 Witness, what counsel is saying to you is that you have taken an

19 oath to speak truthfully and that is what you should do and if you do

20 not, then you commit an offence.

21 Yes, go ahead.

22 MR. IVETIC:

23 Q. Madam, you have testified to those things and now you have said

24 that the reason you pulled and Mr. Kustura's pant leg was because you

25 feared for his safety due to what you knew about Milan Lukic, what you

Page 6824

1 heard about him; so it's quite critical to your testimony today that I

2 know when and from whom you heard these bad things because you said it

3 was before your departure so when and from whom did you hear these bad

4 things about Milan Lukic?

5 A. Before the convoy departed on the 14th, I heard a lot of things

6 about him. I did not see any of those, it is one thing to hear something

7 and another thing to see something. I don't want to talk about things I

8 didn't see, only about what I heard. There are relevant witnesses who

9 survived some of those things and they can tell you about it.

10 Q. Did you hear enough bad things about Milan Lukic that would lead

11 you to embellish your recollection so as to perhaps change a date or add

12 facts as to how you knew it was Milan Lukic?

13 A. I don't want to discuss those deeds of his. That's what I said.

14 I don't want to discuss his evil deeds over other people. I did not

15 participate in them and I did not see them. I don't want to discuss

16 them. And it should be discussed with those who were involved.

17 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I also object to the insinuation that a

18 date has been changed. Her statements have been consistent on that point

19 since 1996, which was well before anyone could have known that that would

20 be relevant in this case in which the defendant was arrested in 2005.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Of course the date was relevant in 1992

23 because that's when it was reported.

24 Q. Now, we've heard testimony in this courtroom of problems with

25 convoys, convoys being cancelled in the same time-period that you are

Page 6825

1 talking about. Convoys going across Sjemec the same road that you

2 described being cancelled due to conflict and fighting in that region.

3 Do you know anything about that? Your story doesn't seem to have that,

4 I'd like to know why. Do you know anything about that?

5 A. I don't know anything about that. My convoy was not stopped. We

6 only stopped at a couple of locations so that people could go into the

7 forest because they had to pee or similar things but that was all.

8 Q. You said you do not know about my stories, they aren't my

9 stories, ma'am. VG-141 in her sworn statement talks about a convoy that

10 was cancelled - excuse me, can I finish - about a convoy that was

11 cancelled going across the same road that your convoy took and it was

12 cancelled due to fighting. Combat, active combat on that road. Do you

13 deny that there was constantly combat on that road, the Sjemec road going

14 towards Rogatica?

15 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I'm not sure there is a foundation for

16 this question. The witness has only testified to having been on that

17 road on one particular day, I don't know what she can say about constant

18 combat.

19 MR. IVETIC: The VG-141 was talking about precisely the 15th and

20 16th of June, 1992.

21 MR. FARR: I think she was speak being the 16th and 17th of June.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you aware, Witness, of combat on that road,

23 the Sjemec road going towards Rogatica?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about it.

25 When my convoy was passing through, there was none of it. I can't speak

Page 6826

1 for other convoys.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have just about five minutes, Mr. Ivetic.

3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Let me ask you about something that you had to have seen if not

5 the combat. We've had testimony and, indeed, documentation that three

6 Serb soldiers, including Vlatko Trifkovic from Lijeska were killed.

7 Their car burnt at the Tablja repeater on the road towards Sjemec, near

8 Lijeska and that that car remained there for several days burnt out at

9 that junction by the Tablja repeater. Did you see that burnt out car

10 that other witnesses saw as late as the 15th of June on that road? Did

11 you see that burnt out car on the 14th of June 1992 when your convoy

12 passed the Tablja location by Lijeska?

13 A. I did not. It is impossible to see everything. My children were

14 there. I couldn't see everything and not all of the people on the bus

15 could see the same thing. I did not see that. It wasn't a trip I was

16 on. Our future was uncertain.

17 Q. And I'd like to ask now, when you arrived at the location that

18 you arrived, you indicated that I believe you said Zeljko Tasic came on

19 to the bus and issued some instructions. Now, in your proofing statement

20 with Mr. Farr, there appear to be some confusion over several individuals

21 by the name of Tasic who you refer to in your various statements. So I'd

22 like to ask you, do you have difficulty distinguishing between Zarko,

23 Veljko and Zeljko Tasic?

24 A. No, that's not difficult for me because --

25 Q. Is there a reason why you mistook them in one of your prior

Page 6827

1 statements, ma'am, if you don't have difficulty differentiating between

2 them? How could that error happen?

3 A. They are similar names, first and last names, and during the

4 typing they made a mistake because there's Zeljko Tasic and Veljko Tasic,

5 so instead of saying Veljko Tasic and Zarko Tasic, instead of Zarko

6 Tasic, the man exists he is an ordinary citizen, a worker like me;

7 anyway, instead of Zarko Tasic, they Tasic, Zarko, his job, they said

8 worked in the military department but it wasn't Tasic, Zeljko, Zarko but

9 Veljko who worked there; so it was the same surname but not the same

10 first name and they made a mistake in typing the names out because Zeljko

11 Tasic was an active duty policeman in the police station.

12 Q. Now, with respect to Zeljko Tasic, he was in your bus going

13 towards the direction you were going, was he, when you set out from

14 Visegrad?

15 A. How do you mean?

16 Q. Well, did he ride on the bus with you when you left Visegrad?

17 A. It was Goran Pecikoza who was on my bus --

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... when you set out from

19 Visegrad. I have very limited time, and I need you to answer the

20 questions I pose.

21 A. When we set out from Visegrad, I didn't see Zeljko Tasic in the

22 bus, but in front of me, there was Goran Pecikoza, a colleague from work,

23 but I didn't see Zeljko Tasic.

24 Q. Goran Pecikoza?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6828

1 Q. One moment. Ma'am, at the Bosnian court case against

2 Mr. Zeljko Lelek there was testimony from Mr. Pecikoza indicating that he

3 was actually in France during the time-period of this alleged incident.

4 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether, in fact,

5 Goran Pecikoza was on the bus with you as you set out from Visegrad as

6 say on 14th of June, 1992?

7 A. Goran Pecikoza was in my bus 100 percent. I'm absolutely

8 certain. He was armed with an automatic rifle wearing a police uniform,

9 the thick kind of the reserve force.

10 Q. And now I'd like to return again to Zeljko Tasic, because how do

11 you account for Zeljko Tasic -- first of all, Zeljko Tasic is not from

12 Isevic Brdo where you ended up, is he?

13 A. What?

14 Q. Where your convoy ended up, I believe it was Isevic Brdo,

15 Mr. Tasic is not located there, he doesn't come from there, does he?

16 A. Who is not from where? From there?

17 Q. Zeljko Tasic. He does not hail from those parts, does he?

18 A. He is not from those parts, but he came as an escort from the

19 convoy from Visegrad. He came up there. I didn't see him during the

20 journey anywhere until he entered our bus at Isevic Brdo and told us that

21 the men from 15 to 65 should leave the bus -- or rather should stay in

22 the bus where the women, children and people above that age should leave

23 the bus.

24 Q. And you say that you did not see him at all during the convoy.

25 You didn't see him when the buses stopped; is that correct? When persons

Page 6829

1 got out to relieve themselves, you did not see him at that point

2 escorting convoy, did you?

3 A. Well, I saw him up there at Mangalin Han where we were boarding

4 the buses, he was among the Serb soldiers there, and when we set off in

5 the morning, but while we were on the square, I didn't see him there. As

6 Isevic Brdo, I mean.

7 Q. You mean when people were relieving themselves, after they left

8 Visegrad, is that where they saw him?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the

10 microphone.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have to speak into the microphone.

12 MR. IVETIC:

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you were boarding the buses.

14 Was that where the busses had stopped to allow passengers to relieve

15 themselves after you had left Visegrad, is that where you claim you saw

16 Zeljko Tasic with other soldiers?

17 A. How do you mean in other places?

18 Q. Madam, you just said that you saw him up there where we were

19 boarding the buses among the Serb soldiers there. Where is there?

20 MR. FARR: I think she said Mangalin Han.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we stepped off after we had

22 left the village of Dubovik to be transported from Mangalin Han to

23 Visegrad.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Your last question, Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. IVETIC:

Page 6840

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

3 MR. GROOME:

4 Q. Sir, some very limited issues have arisen over the course of this

5 trial, which you may have relevant evidence of. The first has to do with

6 a car that Dragan Tomic drove in the spring and summer of 1992. Before I

7 ask you my first question -- or let me ask you my first question. Did

8 you know Dragan Tomic?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. Can you describe your relationship with him?

11 A. Well, we grew up together. We went to high school together, and

12 afterwards we were in rather close contact.

13 Q. Do you have information about the car he was driving in the

14 spring and summer of 1992?

15 MR. IVETIC: Objection, Your Honour, as to being general and

16 vague. I think we need to specify specific months so that we're very

17 clear as to what this witness is testifying about.

18 MR. GROOME: I was attempting to avoid leading him. My attention

19 is to focus in as soon as he responds.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you familiar with the car he was driving in

21 the spring and summer of 1992?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead then, Mr. Groome.

24 MR. GROOME:

25 Q. Can you tell us what car he was driving?

Page 6841

1 A. Dragan Tomic drove a Peugeot 405.

2 Q. What colour was that Peugeot 405?

3 A. White.

4 Q. Do you know under what circumstances he acquired that car to

5 drive?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you please describe those circumstances for the Chamber?

8 A. Your Honours, that car was the property of the company we had

9 mentioned earlier where I used to work, and on one occasion Dragan Tomic

10 called me on the phone, asked me where the car was. I told him, and then

11 he asked me if I could lend him that car because the police force was

12 short of vehicles, and of course I said yes. After that telephone call,

13 the car was made available to him.

14 Q. Sir, when did he ask you for this car? As best you're able, what

15 was the date?

16 A. Well, you see, that was two days after the arrival of the

17 Yugoslav People's Army at the hydro power-plant in Visegrad, which was

18 the 17th of April, 1992, or thereabouts.

19 Q. And did you yourself deliver the car?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Can you please describe for us how you did that?

22 A. It happened like this: At that time I was staying with my

23 parents, and since it was very dangerous to move around, Dragan Tomic

24 sent a car with two policemen who drove me to the location of the

25 Peugeot. Of course, we first took the keys that had been kept by a

Page 6842

1 certain man because I did not have the car myself. Then we drove to the

2 police station. He sent his man to take the keys, and that's how I

3 delivered the car to them. And afterwards, the policeman drove me back

4 to the house where they had picked me up.

5 Q. You said in your answer, "He sent his man to take the keys ..."

6 Did you give the keys to a particular person, and if you did, do you know

7 the name of that person?

8 A. Yes. I personally gave the keys to him, and that gentleman's

9 name was Vidoje Andric, I think.

10 Q. After giving the car keys to Vidoje Andric, how long did you

11 remain in the Visegrad area?

12 A. Around 30 days.

13 Q. During that 30-day period, did you ever see this white Peugeot

14 again?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you able to see who was driving the car?

17 A. Yes. Most of the time, I recognised the driver.

18 Q. And what is the name of the driver?

19 A. The car was almost always driven by the same man to whom I had

20 given the keys, Andric.

21 Q. Did you see it driven at other times by different people?

22 A. I don't remember seeing anyone else.

23 Q. During that 30-day period, did you ever see Vidoje Andric or

24 Dragan Tomic drive a car other than the white Peugeot that belonged to

25 your company?

Page 6843

1 A. Well, you see, I think -- they also had a VW Golf - white, also -

2 and I think they used that car, too, sometimes.

3 Q. Did you ever see either man drive a red car?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, I'd like to change topics. I'd like to speak to you about

6 MLD 1. I'd again remind you that -- to take care to refer to this person

7 by -- as MLD 1. You've described your relationship to and relationship

8 with MLD 1 in private session. My question for you is: After the war,

9 did you and MLD 1 ever share your experiences about what happened in

10 Visegrad?

11 A. It's frequently a subject of conversation.

12 Q. Can you assist us by characterising how often you would speak

13 with him, and recognising it is an approximation, speak to him about your

14 experiences in Visegrad during the conflict?

15 A. Your Honours, the matter is discussed when the situation is

16 favourable, when we are in the privacy of his house or our house -- my

17 house or in a very close circle of friends, not otherwise.

18 Q. Did MLD 1 ever describe to you an event in which Milan Lukic

19 saved his life?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did MLD 1 ever tell you that he went to Belgrade in June of 1992?

22 A. He never mentioned that.

23 Q. Given the nature of your relationship with MLD 1, is it your view

24 that if those two things happened it would be a matter that you likely

25 both would have discussed?

Page 6844

1 MR. IVETIC: Objection, calls for speculation as to what MLD

2 might have thought of the relationship and what MLD might have wanted to

3 share as part of that relationship.

4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm just asking him to limit it to his

5 view of the relationship, not necessarily MLD 1's.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will allow it as to whether it's the kind of

7 issue that would have come up in conversations between you. He can speak

8 to that.

9 MR. GROOME:

10 Q. VG-148, can you please --

11 A. Could you please repeat the question.

12 Q. My question to you is given how you describe the relationship

13 between yourself and MLD 1, is it your view that -- if he had gone to

14 Belgrade in June of 1992, if Milan Lukic had saved his life during the

15 course of the war, that that is something that he would have mentioned to

16 you in your discussions about the war?

17 A. Well, you see, it would certainly be discussed because it would

18 have been very interesting, but he never mentioned it.

19 Q. Now, did you and MLD 1 discuss your personal lives; for example,

20 your relationships, girlfriends, loves?

21 A. We did talk about that, too, because we were really close.

22 Q. Did he ever tell you in the spring of 1992 that he was engaged to

23 be married to a woman who lived in the Dusce area of Visegrad?

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. Did he ever move, to your knowledge, to the Dusce area of

Page 6845

1 Visegrad to live with a woman?

2 A. As far as I know, and I think I know these things well, he never

3 lived there.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not he was in a serious relationship

5 during the spring of 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us where -- if you know, where that woman lived?

8 A. Yes, I know. Certainly I do, because we discussed this

9 frequently. He had a serious relationship with a girlfriend who lived in

10 Rogatica.

11 MR. GROOME: Thank you, VG-148. I have no further questions,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

16 Q. VG-148, as you have heard my name is Dan Ivetic, and it is now my

17 task to pose some questions to you on behalf of Defence of Milan Lukic.

18 Sir, to start off with I'm going to start backwards, I think, from the

19 themes presented by the Prosecution. First of all, sir, did MLD 1 ever

20 tell you that he was going to testify for the defence of Milan Lukic

21 before appearing and testifying?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And yet he did testify. You found that out from the Prosecution;

24 isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes. I found that out recently here.

Page 6846

1 Q. So despite your close relationship, he didn't feel he could

2 safely reveal to you that he was a witness for the Milan Lukic defence;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Well, I couldn't really speculate as to the reasons why he hadn't

5 told me that.

6 Q. Well, he testified here as to his fear of how giving such

7 testimony would be received by others in the Bosnian Muslim community.

8 Did you know of that fear?

9 A. I don't quite understand your question.

10 Q. Well, let me phrase it a different way. You will agree with me,

11 will you not, that Milan Lukic is not a very popular person in the

12 Bosnian Muslim community. Isn't that a fair statement?

13 A. One could say so.

14 Q. And would you also agree with me that in the Bosnian press,

15 including the TV and print, there's been a large outcrying of negative

16 sentiments directed towards Milan Lukic, his attorneys, and defence

17 witnesses led by, among others, Ms. Bakira Hasecic?

18 A. Well, sir, to tell you the truth, I don't read too much. I

19 haven't got the time, but everybody interprets what is written in their

20 own way, so I don't have a particular opinion about these write-ups.

21 Q. You don't read the Dnevni Avaz? You don't watch Federation

22 Channel 1 TV? You don't watch TV Hajat?

23 A. I read everything you have enumerated, and I watch everything you

24 have enumerated, but not very thoroughly. I can't say that I follow it

25 thoroughly.

Page 6847

1 Q. But you will not -- you will not dispute with me that the media

2 has paid close attention to this trial and that the sentiment within the

3 media in Bosnian is very much negative towards Mr. Milan Lukic, whatever

4 the reason may be?

5 A. Well, listen, there is coverage on the media, that's true, but I

6 told you, when it comes, say, for example to Dnevni Avaz, I have a person

7 that is tasked with going through that paper to see whether there's

8 anything in it that would be of interest to me. And as for the rest, to

9 tell you the truth, I just skip over that.

10 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Have you had occasion to be in contact

11 with other Bosnian Muslims such as yourself who hail from Visegrad, and

12 what is their assessment of Milan Lukic? Is it positive or negative?

13 A. Yes. This is discussed, and the assessment is very negative

14 mostly.

15 Q. And so if we were to return to MLD 1 for a second, would you

16 agree with me that it would be very illogical and perhaps even unwise for

17 MLD 1 to advertise the fact that Milan Lukic helped him, saved his life,

18 and is a good person?

19 A. Well, Your Honours, in order to answer that question, the best

20 thing to say would be that it would be such a huge miracle that he would

21 have told the closest persons around him that because that does not

22 represent any danger whatsoever to him, nor is that any sort of

23 demonisation or anything of the sort.

24 Q. Well, sir, wouldn't you agree me that MLD 1, you'd have to defer

25 to him as to whether he felt afraid or not; isn't that correct?

Page 6848

1 A. I apologise. I truly did not understand your question.

2 Q. As for whether or not MLD 1 felt any fear, you would have to

3 defer to him. He knows the ultimate answer to that. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's quite logical.

5 Q. And, in fact, he didn't tell you that he was testifying even.

6 Isn't that correct?

7 A. No, he didn't tell me.

8 Q. Now, according to my calculations, you would have left Visegrad

9 sometime in the middle of May 1992. Is that correct, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So I'm going to ask you, sir, did you have occasion in May and

12 June of 1992 to regularly go to bars or cafes with MLD 1 so as to know

13 with whom he socialised?

14 A. Well, all the way up until the 16th of May we would see each

15 other almost every day.

16 Q. After May 16th, when was the next time that you saw MLD 1?

17 A. When -- when I came to Zenica from Sarajevo, that was March or

18 April of 1993.

19 Q. So for approximately a full year, you were not in contact with

20 MLD 1. Is that your testimony?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And again, I'd like to ask you: You'd have to defer to MLD 1 for

23 his experiences during that year, in particular during June of 1992,

24 because you weren't there and had no contact with him. Isn't that right?

25 A. Your question was quite long, and I didn't get the initial part

Page 6849

1 of it. What's the point?

2 Q. Well, sir, insofar as you were not present in Visegrad with

3 MLD 1, specifically in June of 1992, you would have to defer to him as to

4 his knowledge of the facts that he lived through during that time-period

5 when you were not there, when you were not with him. Isn't that correct?

6 A. Well, yes. During that period of time, we were not together.

7 Later on, we met up again and began socialising again.

8 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to the first topic that was

9 discussed. With respect to -- you said that Mr. -- that Mr. Tomic had

10 sent his man, Vidoje Andric, to pick up the keys to the white Peugeot.

11 At the time in question, that is to say that would have been in April of

12 1992; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What position did Dragan Tomic have at that point in time in

15 April of 1992?

16 A. At that time, he was a police commander. That's what the post

17 was called at the time.

18 Q. And am I correct that Vidoje Andric was one of the other

19 policeman that was engaged in the security detail for Commander Tomic?

20 A. Well, see, here I'm not sure whether he was officially employed

21 with the police, but based on contacts I know that he was more of his

22 body-guard, personal body-guard.

23 Q. Fair enough. And there are other individuals in addition to

24 Vidoje Andric who would accompany Commander Tomic and serve as his

25 body-guards as you've coined that term?

Page 6850

1 A. I wouldn't know about the others.

2 Q. Fair enough. Now, all those times that you saw Tomic and Andric

3 driving around in the white Peugeot and other vehicles - you mentioned a

4 white Golf, as well - that would all be in April and May of 1992, you

5 have no knowledge of anything in Visegrad, personally with your own eyes,

6 after May 16th, 1992, do you?

7 A. Your Honours, I didn't quite understand the question.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Reformulate, Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Yes, sir.

10 Q. Sir, you don't have any first-hand knowledge of what, how often,

11 and where Vidoje Andric and Dragan Tomic drove around in June of 1992 or

12 the second half of May 1992, do you?

13 A. During the period of time when I was absent from Visegrad, I

14 don't know any details concerning that, to tell you the truth.

15 Q. Now, sir, we've had many witnesses here who have said that during

16 that time-period when you weren't in Visegrad, Dragan Tomic was driven by

17 Vidoje Andric and Milan Lukic and others in a red Passat. You can't

18 dispute that fact, can you?

19 A. I didn't hear about that, to tell you the truth.

20 Q. Well, sir, since you weren't there, would you have to defer to

21 people who were there during at that time-period?

22 A. Well, I didn't ask, but even if you didn't ask anyone this was a

23 topic of the conversation. This was always an interesting topic for the

24 residents of Visegrad.

25 Q. So did you or did you not hear that Dragan Tomic and Vidoje

Page 6851

1 Andric would be seen driving around a red vehicle, specifically a Passat?

2 A. See, here, I have never heard that they ever drove in that

3 vehicle. That vehicle was always mentioned in relation to Milan Lukic in

4 that context no matter whom I talked to, and I talked both to Bosniaks

5 and Serbs after the war. This was always linked to the name of Milan

6 Lukic, the red Passat.

7 Q. So is it your testimony here today that you've never heard of

8 Vidoje Andric being linked to any such red automobile in 1992?

9 A. Well, one could say so. Vidoje Andric is not such an interesting

10 individual, and I have no information concerning that.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I'd ask for Exhibit 1D126 that's

12 already been admitted into evidence be shown to the witness on the

13 e-court monitors.

14 Q. And, sir, when the photograph in question comes up, I'm going to

15 ask you about the individual on the left with the vest on.

16 MR. IVETIC: If we can zoom in on the photograph.

17 Q. Sir, looking at this photograph, the individual on the left with

18 the vest on, that's the same Vidoje Andric that you gave the keys to,

19 Tomic's man, Tomic's bodyguard, that would drive around with Commander

20 Tomic, isn't it?

21 A. Yes, that's the person.

22 Q. And the individual sitting next to him with his arm around him,

23 the same uniform, that's Milan Lukic, isn't it?

24 A. Well, I can't say with hundred percent certainty. I didn't know

25 this man before.

Page 6852

1 Q. That's fair enough. Now, the car that these gentleman are

2 sitting on, that's definitely not a white Peugeot, is it?

3 A. I agree.

4 Q. Now, I'm not going to ask you to opine as to what type of vehicle

5 this red vehicle is, but I'm going to ask you this question: Having seen

6 this photograph, do you now have reason to reconsider the possibility

7 that Vidoje Andric and Dragan Tomic and Milan Lukic drove more than one

8 car, including the red one that is depicted in this photograph?

9 A. Forgive me, but you always put quite long questions.

10 Vidoje Andric was of no particular interest, either to me or to others.

11 Now, as to whether he drove in that particular vehicle, I really wouldn't

12 know.

13 Q. So you can neither confirm nor deny that Vidoje Andric,

14 Milan Lukic, and Dragan Tomic may have driven around in a red vehicle,

15 especially during those time-periods when you were not present in

16 Visegrad. Isn't that correct?

17 A. I have no personal knowledge of that. If you are interested,

18 though, if you're quite interested in that, I can tell you what I have

19 heard from friends, neighbours, and so on.

20 MR. IVETIC: Well, sir, I'm only interested in your personal

21 knowledge and -- and information that you have to assist us, and I

22 believe that you've given it to us. Thank you, sir for your testimony.

23 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.

25 MR. GROOME: Just a couple of questions on re-examination.