1 Thursday, 9 April, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.54 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: There's a witness to be called as a Chamber
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
9 And, Mr. Ivetic, you should begin.
10 Please make the declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much. You may sit.
14 Mr. Ivetic, you may begin.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, am I to understand we are
16 going to be in closed session? Is that correct?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, closed session.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's go to closed session.
20 You may sit.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 7062-7063 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Q. Madam, now we are in open session so our words are being
21 broadcast to the open public, so I would urge you and caution you to be
22 careful not give any details that might identify to yourself to anyone
23 listening. And if an answer to my question requires you to do so, please
24 ask me to go into private session, is that understood?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you, madam.
2 Now, the statement you gave to the Association of Women Victims
3 of War in July of 2008 was taken personally by Bakira Hasecic and a
4 colleague of hers Mirsada Tabakovic; is that right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Had you known either Bakira Hasecic or Mirsada Tabakovic prior to
7 giving that statement to the Association of Women Victims of War in
9 A. I didn't know Bakira, but I knew Mirsada.
10 Q. And Mirsada Tabakovic, is she from Visegrad?
11 A. I knew Mirsada, yes. Yes, she is.
12 Q. Okay. And I apologise, madam, I don't have -- I don't have a
13 copy in the Bosnian language of that statement. It was only provided to
14 me in English, otherwise I would give a copy to you to review, but the
15 question I have for you, ma'am, is when you gave that statement, were the
16 answers that you gave to the questions truthful?
17 A. They were.
18 Q. Okay. Now, that statement covers a wide variety of details and
19 events. For our purposes, you are here to discuss the shooting of a lady
20 named Hajra Koric, so I would ask you to focus on that portion of the
21 material that you gave to the Hasecic organisation. And in that a
22 statement, it's at page 5 of the English, and again I don't have a B/C/S
23 copy for you, madam, but in describing the critical incident about the
24 Hajra Koric killing, you refer to an unknown Chetnik, and you say:
25 "He looked at me and this other Chetnik told Milan Lukic, 'It's
1 not that one.' At that moment he saw Hajra behind me, that Chetnik
2 singled her out, and only half a metre from us killed Hajra in front of
3 all of us, shooting at Hajra."
4 And then you list the persons that were with you that I will not
5 mention for purposes of your protective measures. And then you continue:
6 "That woman Hajra incidentally fell down, and she only stretched
7 out one leg. Milan
8 Chetnik answered, 'I have no idea.'"
9 And then you claim that another gun-shot was fired, this time by
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So is that that I've just read back to you, is that an accurate
13 depiction of your recollections as to how the death of Hajra Koric came
14 about that another Chetnik, not Milan Lukic, shot her and killed her in
15 front of you?
16 A. Milan Lukic shot at her. What I stated earlier on is true
17 because I was there.
18 Q. Well, you have to help us out here, ma'am, because in the
19 statement it clearly says that the other Chetnik is the one that shot
20 killing Hajra Koric and that Milan Lukic only shot later.
21 A. No. Milan Lukic shot.
22 Q. Madam, how do you explain the discrepancy in the statement that
23 you told me you gave truthfully to the Bakira Hasecic association, the
24 Association of Women Victims of War?
25 A. Just as I was giving my statement to Bakira, I'm giving one now.
1 Milan Lukic was the one looking for Hajra Koric, and he is the one who
2 killed her.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did another person shoot Hajra before
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Pardon?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. And are you saying that the only person
9 who shot Hajra was Milan Lukic?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender ERN number 0641-2124,
12 but I would ask that it not be -- that it be under because it does
13 contain the contact information of this witness.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D228 under seal, Your Honours.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 Q. Madam, before we leave this exhibit, this statement you gave to
18 the Hasecic organisation, I'd like you to tell me how it came to be that
19 you were in contact with this organisation so as to give a statement.
20 Tell us about the process there.
21 A. They were the ones who contacted me, not the other way around.
22 She wanted to speak to me.
23 Q. When you say "she," who is the she that wanted to speak you to
24 and sought you out to give this statement?
25 A. Bakira did. Bakira called me and asked me about it, that is to
1 say, to give a statement.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can I have a copy of this statement, or can it
3 be put on the --
4 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely, Your Honours. Can we pull it up. It's
5 ERN number 0641-2124. Or if Your Honours like, with the approval of the
6 Prosecution, I do have a clean copy, it's the redacted copy that was
7 disclosed to us.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I still prefer hard copies, so may I
9 have ... it's not in e-court anyhow, I understand.
10 MR. IVETIC: It should be. It was on our 65 ter list.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have a copy if the Court wants, an
12 unredacted copy, so whichever the Court --
13 MR. IVETIC: It's my understanding the only thing that's redacted
14 is the current address of the witness. And the statement -- it's a
15 six-page -- 0641-2128 at the top third of the page where the information
16 about the Hajra Koric shooting is set forth.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask you, Witness, if you remember in July
19 of last year you gave a statement to the Association of Women Victims of
20 War Sarajevo
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember that.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was the 25th of July actually.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So in that statement you say the following:
25 "Milan Lukic and that other person made us go back one by one and
1 started asking, 'Is it this one, this one?' Actually, he was looking for
2 Hajra who came from Nova Mahala. When my turn came, he stopped to ask,
3 that other Chetnik, 'Is it this one?' And Hajra was behind me. He
4 looked at me, and this other Chetnik told Milan Lukic, 'It's not that
5 one.' At that moment as he saw Hajra behind me, that Chetnik singled her
6 out, and only half a metre from us killed Hajra in front of all of us,
7 shooting at Hajra."
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you remember saying that. Now, it goes on:
10 "Specifically, there were: 1, me; 2 --
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next name you are about to say is
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So that we should be in.
14 MR. GROOME: I actually prepared a pseudonym sheet with VG-35's
15 name and her VG number on it, if that assists the Court, we could remain
16 in open session, If we just let the witness know who VG-35 is.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I prefer to go in closed session, so I can call
18 the name. It's less confusing.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 7070 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Your Honours.
5 Q. Madam, I asked you just before His Honour had had some questions
6 for you, I asked you about how it was you that Bakira Hasecic knew that
7 you had information that was of interest to her for purposes of
8 generating this statement in July of 2008.
9 A. I don't know how she came by the information. She was seeking me
10 out in order that I give a statement.
11 Q. And when she was seeking you out, did she tell you precisely what
12 she was seeking you out to give a statement about?
13 A. She didn't explain to me what it was all about. She only asked
14 that I give a statement for the Association of Women Victims of War.
15 Q. Was this statement generated in the course of an interview with
16 Ms. Hasecic and Mrs. Tabakovic?
17 A. I told them what I had experienced and what I had observed.
18 Q. How long did that last, that discussion with them?
19 A. Well, I don't know. Roughly two to three hours.
20 Q. Did either Mrs. Hasecic or Mrs. Tabakovic offer you assistance in
21 terms of remembering certain facts? Did they prompt you with certain
22 facts that needed to be in your statement?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did they tell you what other ladies had said or other witnesses
25 had said about the same incidents that you were talking about?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay, fair enough. Now, you also gave an interview, witness
3 interview to the Bosnia and Herzegovina Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo
4 approximately -- well, almost, I think, two weeks after the interview
5 with the Bakira Hasecic. Do you recall giving that interview to the
6 Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Now, first of all, on the 25th page of that document in B/C/S,
9 that's the signature page where the signatures are located. That would
10 be in English the 52nd -- pardon me, 51st page in the English version,
11 and this is -- 0642-3913 is the ERN of this document. I will read out
12 the section for you. And this would be in B/C/S.
13 [Interpretation] "You said to the Prosecutor in Sarajevo
14 before the statement you are giving today, the question was whether you
15 had ever given a statement to the police to the SIPA or the Prosecutor's
17 "A. No.
18 "Q. Did you ever give a statement to anyone from the ICTY?
19 "Witness: No. On these matters no, I didn't to anyone."
20 [In English] And I have two questions arising out of this, madam.
21 When you said that "on these matters, no, I didn't give to anyone," what
22 -- on what matters did you give a statement to the Office of the
24 A. I only told them about the statement that I had given to Bakira.
25 Q. The statement to Bakira is not referenced in this interview with
1 the Office of the Prosecutor when they ask you about other statements
2 you've given. Why is that, ma'am?
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the question was whether she had given
4 a statement to police, I think to some other organisations. It wasn't a
5 general, had you ever given a statement to anyone? I think they were
6 very specific in who they were asking whether she gave is a statement to.
7 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, she said -- she said in her
8 answer, I only told them about the statement that I had given to Bakira.
9 And this transcript of her interview does not mention Bakira's statement
10 at all.
11 Q. So I'm asking why is that?
12 A. I didn't give a statement to anyone else. The first statement I
13 gave was the one to Bakira.
14 Q. Let me clarify, madam, perhaps the intervention by my colleague
15 confused you.
16 You told us that you only told the Office of the Prosecutor in
17 Sarajevo about the interview that you gave to Bakira. However, the
18 transcript of your discussions with them does not, in fact, indicate that
19 you told them about giving a statement to Bakira. So why is that? Did
20 you tell them about Bakira's statement or not?
21 A. I don't remember, but I don't think I mentioned having given a
22 statement before. I believe they cooperated and that there was no need
23 for me to mention that I had given a statement to Bakira.
24 Q. Okay. Well, ma'am, what is interesting is that in this statement
25 to the Office of the Prosecutor in Sarajevo, with the section that both
1 myself and Your Honour read out to you from Bakira's statement, you have
2 the exact same words, the only difference being that now you have
3 interchanged so that Milan Lukic is the one who shot first --
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: I have to object to what is a terribly inaccurate
6 characterization of the statement. The statement from Sarajevo is
7 actually a verbatim transcript of the tape-recording of what the witness
8 said. We are talking about it, if Mr. Ivetic doesn't tender it into
9 evidence, I certainly will be so the Chamber can see exactly in this
10 woman's own words what she said about two weeks after the statement that
11 Mr. Ivetic has tendered and seeks to rely on.
12 MR. IVETIC: I fail to see what is incorrect, where she now says
13 Milan Lukic was the one that shot. In the other statement she said it
14 was the other person.
15 MR. GROOME: My objection is that she says the exact same thing
16 except for this one fact; she doesn't. She gives an unprompted account
17 of what happened, and she says exactly what she saw. It's not simply a
18 change of who did the shooting.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic, let us see that statement.
20 MR. IVETIC: Sure, Your Honours. I've called it up as 0642-3913,
21 and it's the 43rd page in the English translation. If we don't -- I
22 don't know if that one is released. I do have a clean copy.
23 MR. GROOME: I just had it uploaded into e-court. It's available
24 now in e-court in both languages.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: This one was given 12 days after the one she
1 gave to the association.
2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. And the portion that Mr. Ivetic
3 is referring to in English is page 43, and the original B/C/S is on
4 page 22, so that would be the relevant page to put before the witness.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is this the page, Mr. Groome?
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, it is.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm reading it.
8 MR. GROOME: It goes down a little bit further, and I think the
9 upper portion is irrelevant, but if it can be scrolled down a little bit
10 more, I think it has the complete account.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, do you remember some --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Some 12 days after giving this statement to the
14 victims association, you gave another statement to the Prosecutor's
15 Office in Sarajevo, that was on the 6th of August. Do you remember that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Now, I'm going to read a portion from the --
18 that statement. You are speaking with an officer of the Prosecutor's
19 office, and the portion I'm going to read begins this way, you say:
20 "We started going back. Since it was a small narrow road we had
21 to walk behind each other, and as we approached them one by one,
22 Milan Lukic asked everyone, 'is this the person?' Hajra was behind me.
23 She was walking behind me. When he got to me he stopped and asked, 'Is
24 this the person?'"
25 Then the Prosecutor's officer asked:
1 "Are you referring to Milan Lukic as the person who asked the
3 And you answered:
5 Prosecutor's office asked:
6 "And what did that other person say?"
7 And you answered:
8 "This man stopped for a minute or two, looked at me and said,
9 'No, it's not.'"
10 And then the Prosecutor's officer asked:
11 "And what happened when they got to Hajra?"
12 And you answered:
13 "As Hajra came up behind me, he moved her some half a metre from
14 us and suddenly shot her."
15 The Prosecutor's officer asked:
16 "Who shot her?"
17 And you answered:
19 replied, 'I've got no answer,' and walked up to her and shot her again."
20 The Office of the Prosecutor said:
21 "So Milan Lukic shot her twice?"
22 And you answered:
24 Do you remember giving that statement?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, and it always had to do with
1 Milan Lukic alone.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Milan
3 would be asking you is 12 days before in your statement to the victims
4 association, you said a Chetnik shot Hajra and killed her, and after that
5 Milan Lukic shot her; whereas here you appear to be saying that it was
6 Milan Lukic alone who shot her. Mr. Groome is going to correct
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I respectfully -- I think -- what I
9 think is the problem is that in the Bakira Hasecic's statement a pronoun
10 is used, and it's used in a way that creates confusion. I'm not sure
11 it's so clear from this statement that she has identified the other
12 person. I do admit that it is unclear because of the use of the pronoun,
13 but we don't have the original statement, so I believe that's the source
14 of the problem.
15 MR. IVETIC: I think not, Your Honour, because she's very clear
16 in terms of identifying who asked and who said what is up with her. In
17 the prior statement she said, That other Chetnik asked what is up with
18 her, and Milan Lukic said, I have no idea. Here it's specifically says
19 the other person asked, What is up with her? And then Milan Lukic
20 replied, I've got into idea. So it's very clear that she's been
21 referring to the persons with the name, the fixed name, as Milan Lukic,
22 and the pronoun as this other individual, and now she has flipped who is
23 saying what and who is saying what. So it's very clear that the names
24 have been interchanged when reading the two side by side, and that would
25 be what --
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask you, Mr. Ivetic, whether it is your
2 case that Milan Lukic did shoot Hajra but no criminal liability attaches
3 to him because she was already dead? Please think carefully before you
4 answer that.
5 MR. IVETIC: I have thought carefully.
6 Your Honours, we dispute that Milan Lukic was anywhere near
7 Hajra Koric, and we believe that this shows -- goes to the credibility of
8 the witnesses that have been brought. And again there was only one other
9 witness brought for this incident who we've heard the relation with this
10 particular witness, and it's our belief that this shows some issue of
11 credibility as to that, and there will be another point that I will be
12 making that I think will make it absolutely clear as to what our case is
13 with respect to this particular incident. In fact, maybe we can move
14 there now, if Your Honours are finished with this particular portion of
15 the transcript. There's another portion that will illuminate it very
16 succinctly in her own words as to who this Milan Lukic is that shot
17 Hajra Koric.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
19 Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would just ask that before we leave
21 this area, given the amount of discussion about this other statement and
22 the Court's reading of it, that it be tendered into the evidence. It's
23 the statement of the 6th of August of 2008 of this witness.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit it.
25 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
2 Any other questions on this statement?
3 MR. IVETIC: On the statement, yes, I do, Your Honour.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. The statement becomes Exhibit P336
5 Your Honours, under seal.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We should be
7 apologizing to you, we didn't give you a chance to stand up.
8 Q. Madam, in this statement at page 14 of the B/C/S, you describe
9 this individual Milan Lukic who did this to Hajra Koric, and again I'll
10 have to go on the B/C/S because that's the copy that I had when I was
11 preparing the questions, and at page 14 you say, it says:
12 [Interpretation] "Witness: I would gladly provide with you a
13 description testifying that it was Milan Lukic.
14 "Q. Can you describe that person?
15 "Witness: Rather tall, blond hair; age, well, 25 or 26. I
16 think he was born in 1967 or 1968 or around that year.
17 "Q. How do you know that?
18 "A. Because I know it. I think he was my husband's
19 schoolmate, and he was their neighbour. His brother used to live in that
20 house before I married into that family."
21 [In English] And the question I have for you, ma'am, which
22 brother of Milan Lukic lived in your husband's house before you married
23 into that house?
24 A. Sredoje Lukic lived in that house. I heard they were brothers,
25 they may well not be, but I believe they are. In any case, I know that
1 Sredoje Lukic used to live in that house.
2 Q. In fact, I can tell you that they are not brothers.
3 Madam, what school did your husband finish that he would have
4 gone to school with Milan Lukic? And what grades do you believe that
5 they went to school together?
6 A. I don't know what grades they attended together, therefore, I
7 would decline providing any further statements about that.
8 Q. But you do know, and you stand by the fact, that Milan Lukic was
9 rather tall and with blond hair?
10 A. As far as I recall, he was blond and rather tall.
11 Q. Could you describe for us that hair, how -- was it long, short?
12 A. I don't remember the hair.
13 Q. Thank you. I apologise, I see -- would you like to take a break,
14 or ...
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms., would you like us to take a break?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take a break for 10 minutes.
19 --- Recess taken at 9.46 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: How much longer do you have?
22 MR. IVETIC: Ten minutes or less, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Yes.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Madam, you, yourself, did not know Milan Lukic prior to the
1 outbreak of war in Visegrad in 1992, did you?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. Did this blond-haired individual that you called Milan Lukic who
4 shot Hajra Koric have any identifying tattoos anywhere on his body that
5 you could see?
6 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with that.
7 Q. Did he have any noticeable birth marks on his face, as we've had
8 testimony from other witnesses as to a birth mark on his face?
9 A. I don't recall anything.
10 Q. Okay. Now, without mentioning any names so as to protect not
11 only yourself but any other persons such as your sister-in-law, did you
12 talk about this event with your sister-in-law or any of the other persons
13 that, according to your statement, were present for the shooting while
14 you were all refugees travelling together or meeting together outside of
15 Visegrad in the intervening years after the event?
16 A. I only talked to my sister-in-law.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for the abundance of caution I'd
18 rather go into private session so we can try to finish it quicker.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 7082 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Q. Madam, it's my understanding that this morning, you were given
7 the transcript of your interview from the Sarajevo court for you to
8 review and read in your language before testifying here today; is that
10 A. It is not.
11 Q. I apologise, and I'm happy to hear that because that would have
12 been troubling for me.
13 With respect to the statement given to the Bakira Hasecic
14 organisation, was there talk at that time amongst yourself and the other
15 two individuals, namely Bakira Hasecic and Ms. Tabakovic, as to the
16 impending start of the trial in the Milan Lukic case here before
17 The Hague
18 A. No.
19 Q. You had never before given any statements to anyone about this
20 event, the killing of Hajra Koric; is that accurate?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Okay, Madam, we are almost done.
23 I want to put my case to you now, and I want you to listen
24 carefully to it and understand what I'm telling you.
25 I put it to you, ma'am, that my client was never there when Hajra
1 Koric was shot and killed. I put it to you that the -- that
2 Bakira Hasecic, that her statement, the statement that you did with her
3 was a test run for your testimony, and that she prompted you to testify
4 consistent with her statement, but that in Sarajevo, two weeks later, you
5 made a mistake and switched the names and also gave a different
6 description of Milan Lukic, which is why the Prosecution did not bring
7 you in their case in chief but brought your sister-in-law. Am I correct,
9 A. No.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Witness. It's up to the Judges now.
11 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
13 Mr. Groome.
14 Sorry, Mr. Cepic?
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I understood
16 this has nothing to do with my particular case. However, I do have an
17 objection because something is being repeated by the Prosecutor. The
18 statement that was tendered and admitted today, P336, this is something
19 we only received this morning at 8.31. That is to say 10 minutes prior
20 to the beginning of the session. Therefore, I was in no position to go
21 through it in detail.
22 Given the announcements for this part of the case, I don't think
23 there would be anything that I should be examining on behalf of my client
24 right now. Therefore, I do not have any questions.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
1 Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I just have one question I'd like to
3 put to the witness, if we could do it in private session.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 7086-7087 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: On the 6th of April, the Defence of
16 Sredoje Lukic filed a motion seeking to admit the minutes of the 19th
17 session of the assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 On 8th April, the Chamber ordered that any responses to the motion were
19 to be made orally today. Only the Prosecution availed itself of this
20 opportunity. The Chamber has examined the documents sought to be
21 admitted and considers that they are not of sufficient relevance to the
22 proceedings, and the motion is therefore denied.
23 The last decision is as follows: The Chamber is aware that the
24 record contains exhibits which have been admitted into evidence more than
25 once. In the interest of having a clear record, the Chamber therefore
1 orders each party to review the exhibits it has tendered into evidence
2 with a view to locating duplicate exhibits. Furthermore, the Chamber
3 orders the parties to liaise with each other in order to find exhibits
4 tendered into evidence by one party but which have also been tendered by
5 another party. The parties are to inform the Chamber in writing of the
6 results of their efforts by Friday, 17th April, at 4.00 p.m.
7 Those are the decisions.
8 Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could, there's a few matters that
10 I would like to raise with the Chamber. The first relates to a decision
11 by the Chamber on the 30th of March, 2009, in which the Chamber ordered
12 the Milan
13 contact information sought in relation to six witnesses. At this stage
14 we haven't received any such information. One of those witnesses, I'm
15 not sure whether there is a protective measures motion with respect to
16 him, but he is the person who we are scheduled to hear on the 21st of
17 April by video-link. We still have not received a statement or been
18 provided the details of the witness including the correct spelling of his
19 name and date of birth. It is my intention to attempt to speak with this
20 gentleman prior to the 21st, so I'm asking the Chamber to direct the
21 Milan Lukic Defence by the end of today to comply with that order of the
22 30th of March.
23 I am also considering whether to speak with the other six people
24 or other five people who were also subject of that order. So I would ask
25 that full compliance with that order be accomplished before this long
1 weekend. I see Mr. Ivetic on his feet.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: I must confess I'm not familiar with what other five
4 people are the subject of the order, but I will attend to that. With
5 respect to the individual that Your Honours have tentatively scheduled
6 for the 21st of April, I believe that all the information that we had
7 available on him was included in the -- in the filing for requesting the
8 subpoena which I thought had been served upon the Prosecution. I am not
9 -- but in any event, I will make sure that that information is available
10 to them, everything that we have from this individual.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: In any event, the Chamber will require you to
12 pass on the information to the Prosecutor by the end of today.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the second matter is with respect to
14 our preparations for the final submissions, in an effort to keep as much
15 material that really doesn't need to be private or confidential, to keep
16 it in the public domain just for ease of sighting and for transparency,
17 it occurs to me that the alibi notices filed in this case were filed
18 confidentially. And the reason they were filed confidentially were
19 because Defence counsel intended to seek protective measures for some of
20 the witnesses. And I think that was entirely appropriate.
21 But it is relevant and proper for us to discuss the alibi notice
22 itself, the substance of it, and so what I'm asking the Court -- I'm
23 asking the Court to issue an order or decision that allows the parties to
24 quote the substance of the alibi notice as well as the associated 65 ter
25 summaries of the alibi witnesses, as long as we observe all applicable
1 protective measures motions.
2 So, for example, that we would be allowed to write in our brief
3 that Milan Lukic asserted on the 19th of July, 2008, that he was driving
4 MLD1 to Belgrade
5 the original alibi. So that would be my request with respect to that,
6 Your Honour, that we be allowed to do that in the public portion of the
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: One part I'd like to respond to, then, is all the
10 parties know, it would I believe be improper to use 65 ter summaries,
11 particularly 65 ter summaries done before there was any contact with
12 these witnesses. The witnesses testimony, when they came here to testify
13 under oath, is what is relevant to these proceedings and what is properly
14 taken into account of these witnesses. We have time and again applied to
15 the Court and told the Court how the 65 ter list was generated, how the
16 65 ter summaries were generated, at that time we had not had contact with
17 a large majority of the witnesses that were on the Defence list given the
18 time period that we had to prepare the list and the requirements of
19 serving that list. Therefore, I think I believe it's highly improper for
20 the Prosecution to make any references to the 65 ter summary that might
21 have been done without the input of the witness in terms of evaluating
22 the testimony of the witnesses.
23 The only part that is properly of the Court and of the record for
24 determining the evidence and/or guilt -- evidence of guilt and/or
25 innocence of the party -- of the accused is the testimony and the
1 exhibits that have been provided of record in these proceedings. Not,
2 not the 65 ter summaries that were provided before the Defence had an
3 opportunity to talk to witnesses and to find out what exactly or
4 precisely they had to offer as testimony.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I just in response to Mr. Ivetic, it
6 may be very well be that very little weight should be accorded them, but
7 the fact remains that many the Defence witness statements, if you look at
8 the date of the witness statements and you look at the date of the
9 summaries, the statements actually predate the summaries, so it's in fact
10 not accurate to say that they were before any interview by Defence team
12 And again, Your Honour, all I'm asking for is that the matter be
13 able to be treated publicly rather than in a confidential annex to the
14 brief, again recognising that the Chamber may decide to put little or no
15 weight on the 65 ter summaries.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll give a decision on this shortly.
18 MR. GROOME: Then, Your Honours, just two more matters. On the
19 1st of April, the Prosecution, again in an interest of making the
20 proceedings transparent and to move material that doesn't necessarily
21 have any need to be in private session or confidential, have filed a
22 motion with transcript references and exhibits that we submit should be
23 -- the status should be changed to allow them to be cited publicly. The
24 case has moved on from there and there have been some additional
25 statements that I believe would be appropriate to have redacted versions
1 made part of the public record in this case. And I'm asking for
2 permission to next week file a supplement to that 1st of April motion
3 with redacted or proposed redacted versions of statements and other
4 evidence that's been adduced since that motion was filed. Again I think
5 many of the decisions to place documents under seal were to protect the
6 identity of the people who had provided them, but there still remains
7 large portions of the substance of that evidence that I believe is
8 appropriately handled publicly. So I'm seeking permission to supplement
9 our motion, and we will do that -- now that we have heard the last
10 witness, I think that we can do that by Wednesday.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: And the final matter is the other day Mr. Ivetic
13 introduced into evidence four statements under 1D224. Just in asking the
14 Chamber to consider whether it will not be less confusing if the four
15 different statements are given four different exhibit numbers or suffix
16 to distinguish between them. They are four distinct statements. I think
17 it will be clear in our arguments to the Chamber if they have four
18 different exhibit numbers.
19 And that's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So 1D224, A, B, C, and D.
21 MR. GROOME: Either that, or .1, .2, whatever convention.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will do that.
23 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any other matters?
25 Well, it all remains for me to thank you all and to wish you a
1 happy break. For my own part, I will be in the Caribbean.
2 And we will resume on the 21st. The time will be announced.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.59 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of April,