1 Wednesday, 9 August 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Haxhibeqiri. As I did yesterday,
7 I remind you that the solemn declaration continues to apply today to that
9 WITNESS: Fuat Haxhibeqiri [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic?
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you have said quite a lot so
15 far. You said that you were involved with human rights, so could you
16 please tell us where the village of Jablanica is on the territory of the
17 Djakovica municipality?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you aware that 16 civilians were killed in that village?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know that all of those civilians were not Albanians?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know that there was a provisional detention camp there in
24 the village of Jablanica?
25 A. No.
1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, could we have a date
2 regarding this event?
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic?
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think that there will be an answer
5 for my next question.
6 Q. Are you aware that Ramus Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimi
7 were charged for those crimes before this Tribunal?
8 A. I don't know. I know that they were invited to come to the
9 Tribunal but I do not know what they were charged with. You mentioned 16
10 civilians. In fact I've got a list of 40 civilians here killed by the
11 Serbian forces and they are all Albanian in that village.
12 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, why are you so partial when we are talking about
13 the Albanians; you don't seem to know anything.
14 A. Never the human rights council had any access to go and find out
15 the details you're talking about and you're talking about the wartime.
16 Are you?
17 Q. Do you know where Radonjicko lake is?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Do you know about the crimes at Radonjicko Jezero?
20 MR. HANNIS: Again Your Honour it would be helpful to have some
21 kind of time-frame for these matters.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it necessarily helps your case if
25 you're not more specific in these questions.
1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is -- we are
2 talking about the period of 1998 now, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you have to make it clear in your questions
4 the period that you're relating them to so the witness is able to focus
5 his mind on the period that you're interested in.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are talking about
7 generally known allegations that were frequently mentioned in the media
8 both in Kosmet and in Serbia. Much media attention was --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not your job to give evidence here. If you
10 want to establish that that's what you're asking about, then you can only
11 do that through either asking the witness or presenting the documents you
12 want to rely on as indicators of general knowledge. But you can't simply
13 give evidence to that effect before us, and remember we come to this
14 fairly ignorant of the background circumstances until we hear about it in
15 the evidence. It's also our duty to exclude from our minds anything we've
16 heard from other cases, so you've got to build your own evidence in this
17 case, bearing that in mind.
18 MR. CEPIC: I understood, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Haxhibeqiri, did you understand that all the
20 time we were talking about this period 1998-1999?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. You mentioned during your testimony on the 7th of
23 August, the bombing of a column of Albanian refugees near Terzija bridge
24 by NATO planes. Do you know how many people were killed? We are talking
25 about the 14th of April 1999.
1 A. No.
2 Q. What were you doing then, Mr. Haxhibeqiri?
3 A. At that time, I did not have access to the grounds where the
4 fighting was taking place because the village is some 15 kilometres from
5 where I live and it was war.
6 Q. We are talking about Terzija Most, Terzijski bridge, and an
7 incident that took place on the 14th of April 1999.
8 A. That's what I'm answering about. The bridge of Terzi.
9 Q. How far is Terzijski bridge from your house?
10 A. Eight kilometres.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, in your investigations you only dealt
12 with Albanian victims; is that correct?
13 A. Of course, because we didn't have access and possibilities to
14 identify victims of other ethnic groups.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honours,
16 thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
18 Mr. Aleksic?
19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Haxhibeqiri. I'm Aleksandar Aleksic, lawyer
23 from Belgrade. I'm going to be asking you questions on behalf of the
24 Defence of General Nebojsa Pavkovic. I'm going to be asking you a number
25 of very short questions. I will try to be as specific as possible and I
1 would like to ask you to provide the shortest possible answers, if
2 possible with yes or no.
3 When you provided your statement to the investigators of this
4 Tribunal, you provided certain information about yourself, and yesterday
5 you repeated some of this information relating to your profession.
6 I apologise but we did not receive a corrected transcript so I do
7 have the draft or the working version, and on page 68, lines 3 to 5 of
8 yesterday's transcript, you said that you worked in a shop owned by the
9 Agimi family, the Agimi organisation, and that after the war you continued
10 to work for the same organisation but then you were actually paid. This
11 is what was in the transcript. So could you please explain, if that means
12 that you worked before that?
13 A. The Agimi firm is not private but state-owned. And after the war
14 the shop was burned and I continued to work for the human rights council
15 where I am being paid. Up until now, we were working as volunteers. Up
16 until then we were working as volunteers.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me what you're doing now? Are you
18 still just a human right activist or --
19 A. No. Now I am a project manager in a non-governmental organisation
20 which is the Forum for Democratic Initiative.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about your qualifications,
22 about your education? Which schools did you finish?
23 A. High school.
24 Q. And up until 1995 you worked in that shop as a merchant or a
25 salesman, up until the war actually?
1 A. No. Up until the night when the bombing started on the 24th of
2 March when the shop was burned.
3 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move briefly to a different topic.
4 In your statement, you said that since you were the chairman or the
5 president of that non-governmental organisation, you talked to over 1.000
6 people. Yesterday in the transcript, during the testimony in chief
7 conducted by my learned friend Mr. Hannis. On page 11, line 6 and 7 of
8 the transcript you said you talked personally with 100 people and that
9 after that you read or looked over the other statements; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Also yesterday, in response to a question by my learned friend
12 Mr. Lukic - and this is page 68, lines 10 to 12 of the transcript - you
13 stated that you continued your investigations after the war and that for a
14 while you worked for the International Crisis Group; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that they gave you certain forms. Did you personally fill in
17 those forms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now I would like to ask you to respond to the following question.
20 How many of these forms did you fill in, if you can tell us?
21 A. More than 100, more than 100. Yes, yes, more than a hundred.
22 Q. So if I understood you correctly, these 100 statements were not
23 part of those forms or is that the same thing, if you can tell us?
24 A. The same thing.
25 Q. Thank you. Did the people that you interviewed sign -- actually,
1 ignore that.
2 Your work, did it consist of just work for the International
3 Crisis Group and then you submitted those forms later?
4 A. Yes. But the ICG people were there present during all the
6 Q. Thank you, but that wasn't my question. I'm going to move to
7 another topic now. During the examination-in-chief by my learned friend
8 Mr. Hannis and then yesterday in response to questions of my colleague,
9 Mr. Lukic, you mentioned the events of the 7th to 11th of May in Djakovica
10 or actually the fighting between the KLA and what you call the Serbian
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm sorry but I must repeat this. You said that on that occasion,
14 106 people were killed, 300 were arrested, some of them were processed; of
15 them, some of them were released and some of them were transferred to a
16 different place. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show the witness
19 his statement, Exhibit 5 P2235. This is the last page. I think this is
20 the last page in all the versions.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only have the first page in front
22 of me, Your Honours.
23 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Does the Witness have the last page?
24 If so, then it's -- I don't need to see it.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] This is the passage before the last,
2 and it's the incident you talked about of the 17th [as interpreted] to the
3 11th of May. It's an action.
4 Q. And my question is, is this the same event you described during
5 your testimony over these last couple of days, the same incident that you
6 talked about. Sorry, on which page in my document and the document that I
7 have is that found, because it seems that we've got different documents.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Paragraph --.
9 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but my
10 transcript doesn't seem to be going forward. I don't know if it is on
11 your monitors or not.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it's not at the moment, and --
13 MR. HANNIS: I'm stopped at page seven, line 13.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. And we're struggling to get the document to
15 the end of his statement as well. So far as the document is concerned, it
16 is the second-last full paragraph; is that correct? Is that correct --
17 yeah. So we're not wanting the declaration at the end, which is now on the
18 screen. We wish the second-last paragraph which start -- which starts
19 with the words - hold on - which starts with the words, "from 7 till 11
20 May, 1999, in Asim Vokshi street." That's the paragraph. But just
21 before --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: -- let's find out why the transcript is not
24 advancing. Do you know the answer to that? No doubt it will catch up
25 with us. Let's carry on with the questions. Carry on, Mr. -- well, too
1 bad. We're carrying on and it will just need to be resolved at some
2 later stage by just re-listening to the evidence from the recording, but
3 we're not going to be delayed by these technical glitches. Let's carry
4 on, Mr. Aleksic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
6 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The question was whether this was the same event or not. Yes, and
8 when you were providing your statement, you didn't mention the KLA. Is
9 that correct? When you gave the statement to the investigators of this
11 A. Yes, I mentioned it, and I said that the fighting was between the
12 KLA and the Serbian forces.
13 Q. When you gave your statement on the 28th of August, 2001. You
14 said that.
15 A. I have said and talked about the same event in many interviews
16 but -- and said the same thing. And -- and this statement here is -- is
17 not complete because there was also 87 corpses who were buried without any
18 ceremonial by the troops, by the Serbian troops.
19 Q. I wasn't asking you that. I'm sorry. Don't give me an answer that
20 had nothing to do with my questions. In the beginning I asked you if you
21 could provide brief answers, yes or no, if possible.
22 Could you please look at the next page where it says that the
23 statement was read to you aloud in the Albanian and that it contains all
24 that you have said; is that correct? It's on the next page.
25 A. Yes. I've said that this statement lacks a lot of detail. I've
1 said that.
2 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, that is not what I have just asked you.
3 A. I've given my answer on that.
4 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
5 further questions.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you sit down, your question was that
7 the declaration said the statement contains all that the witness has said.
8 Where does it say that?
9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's the affirmation
12 by the witness, so it comes after the statement or at the back of the
13 statement where he says the statement was read back to me in the Albanian
14 language and contains all that I have said, to my best recollection.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what it says in English. You see, it
16 says "and is true to the best of my knowledge and recollection." It
17 doesn't say it contains all I have said. Does it? Does it say that in
18 another language and has it been wrongly translated into English?
19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the interpreters or the
20 translators probably have this filed in the B/C/S or the Serbian but each
21 witness acknowledgement contains the same statement and that was my
23 JUDGE BONOMY: But your question was posed on the basis that the
24 words of the witness acknowledgement are, that the statement contains "all
25 I have said." Now that's not what it says in English and I want to know
1 if there is some confusion between the two languages.
2 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. Perhaps I
3 wasn't precise enough. I said that in all the statements that we received
4 from the other side, each document that has the witness acknowledgement,
5 and this is a standard form, it's probably filed. It states, "This
6 statement has been read over to me in the Albanian language and contains
7 everything that I have said to the best of my knowledge and recollections.
8 I have given this statement voluntarily and I'm aware that it maybe used,"
9 and so on and so forth.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can we have on the screen the witness
11 acknowledgement? We do have it in Albanian, and -- you see that, Mr. --
12 could you read that witness acknowledgement please, just read it slowly?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: But read it out so that we -- just read it -- read
15 it out aloud, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "This statement has been read over
17 to me in Albanian language and is true to the best of my knowledge and
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Just stop there. That's not the words, these are
20 not the words you're using to me, Mr. Aleksic. There is a difference
21 between saying my -- this is -- "this is what I've actually said" and
22 "this is all that I've actually said." They have two quite distinct
23 things, and the witness has constantly told you this statement does not
24 contain everything he has said but he's also saying that it's true. Now I
25 want to be clear that there is no misunderstanding about what's actually
1 in the witness acknowledgement.
2 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I absolutely agree with
3 you but this is not my fault. Perhaps the witness can look at the last
4 page of the statement in Serbian, in B/C/S, and then the witness and I
5 think Mr. Haxhibeqiri understands and can read the Serbian. Then he can
6 read it out in Serbian just to see if I have made a mistake. This is an
7 official translation of the Tribunal, it's not our translation.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that but -- but I was directed by you
9 to the Albanian. I didn't choose to go to the Albanian. Now that you
10 direct me to the Serbian version I will go to it.
11 So let's have the Serbian declaration, if we can, on the screen.
12 Now, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, can you read that, please, in the same way, just the
13 first sentence of it?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "This statement has been read over
15 to me in the Albanian language and contains all that I have said
16 according -- to the best of my knowledge and recollection. I have given
17 this statement voluntarily."
18 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all we need to hear from you. All right. I
19 note the difference in the language used. Thank you.
20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?
23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'd like to follow up on this last series of
25 Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan:
1 Q. Sir, the statement that you have in front of you is in the
2 Albanian language, correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now, when you were interviewed on the 28th of August 2001, you
5 were only asked to sign the English-language statement; in other words,
6 the Albanian-language translation of the statement did not exist at the
7 time, did it?
8 THE INTERPRETER: I couldn't hear the witness, please.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN:
10 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please?
11 A. I saw the statement here.
12 Q. Correct. And your Albanian language statement in front of you?
13 A. I saw it in Albanian.
14 Q. But it did not exist on the 28th of August 2001, did it, when you
15 were interviewed?
16 A. I don't remember that.
17 Q. The only statement that you signed is the English-language
18 statement P2235?
19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I would beg to interrupt; forgive me for that.
20 You see, the witness here is under oath and the best thing is which
21 statements he accepts. If he has signed a statement previously, all that
22 makes no difference. If you can kindly consider, that will curtail time,
23 a waste of time. Could you please ask him which one he accepts and that
24 would end the controversy, if you so please.
25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I think Mr. O'Sullivan's point is a different one,
2 though. I don't think it's a question of whether the statement is
3 accurate or not in itself at the moment. He wants to find out what
4 existed in documentary form at the time the witness actually made the
5 acknowledgement, and in view of the differences in language that we've
6 just heard about that could be important. So I don't think we ought to
7 interrupt at this stage.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'm coming to my point, Your Honour.
9 Q. My point is this: That when you were interviewed by a
10 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, he spoke to you in English
11 and there was an Albanian interpreter and you responded in Albanian and
12 the interpreter recounted what you said to him in English, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then on the spot they produced a hard copy of this
15 English-language statement, correct? Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And then you and the other two people present, the investigator
18 and the interpreter, signed each and every page, correct?
19 A. Yes. That's right.
20 Q. Of course before you signed it, it was read back to you, the
21 English document was read back to you in Albanian by the interpreter who
22 was present, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And indeed at the end of the English-language --
25 A. When I say fighting, I mean the belligerent sides. Probably the
1 interpreter has missed that thing, and, of course, I was rather excited,
2 tense, probably, and I could -- they don't notice that and now I see it.
3 So it's not explicitly mentioned in my statement.
4 Q. That's not where we are going here, sir.
5 A. I think this is what you mean: You mean what -- it's not there,
6 that the forces have entered Asim Vokshi street and with whom did they
7 fight, so that that part of the other side should be mentioned there
8 because this is what I'm recounting you, that fighting, and the --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It will help us all if you just deal with the
10 questions one by one. Let counsel approach this in the way he wishes to
11 approach it. So listen to the question and answer each individual
12 question that's posed to you. Mr. O'Sullivan?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN:
14 Q. Let me focus you again on my question. So far we've said that
15 this English-language statement was read back to you, to you in Albanian
16 by the interpreter. At that point, you accepted the statement and
17 everyone present, you, the interpreter, and the investigator, signed each
18 page and you yourself signed the last page of this statement, correct?
19 I'm sorry, we didn't hear your answer.
20 A. Yes. I repeated it three times, yes.
21 Q. Now, at no point after it was read back to you did you complain to
22 the investigator that your statement was incomplete, did you?
23 A. I have complained that the translation is very weak. I didn't
24 like the translation.
25 Q. Who did you tell that to? Did you tell the OTP investigator that
1 when you were sitting with him on the 28th of August 2001?
2 A. No. I said it to myself. I didn't like the Albanian, seems
3 rather colourless.
4 Q. That translation in Albanian you were looking at did not exist on
5 the 28th of August 2001. My question is: Did you complain to the people
6 who were interviewing you, sir, that your statement was inaccurate,
7 incomplete or otherwise unsatisfactory? That's my question.
8 A. No, no.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Fila?
11 MR. FILA: Mr. President, let us first clarify a particular
12 matter that has been coming up here throughout. Mr. Hannis, when he reads
13 the Albanian statements -- I mean, the Court holds it against the Defence
14 for the fact that we do not use the same nomenclature. I have to say that
15 we never got the Albanian versions of any witness's statement with the
16 relevant numbers because all the originals are actually in English, as
17 Mr. O'Sullivan explained to you just now. All the rest are translations
18 into Albanian, into Serbian. It is useful to know that, that the original
19 statement is actually the English statement. That is the point of what I
20 wish to say.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
22 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, my name is Toma Fila?
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go further, I don't know whether this is
24 a complaint or not that's being made by Mr. Fila but I'd like
25 clarification, Mr. Hannis. The document which the witness generally has
1 been referred to is in Albanian, as you made clear, and is even numbered
2 for his purposes with numbers which are different from the numbers in the
3 other versions. The indications are that the Defence have never been
4 given that document.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, they've been given that document, but
6 with -- not the paragraph numbers that I handwrote on to give to the
7 witness so that he could follow along when I was referring to paragraphs.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Fila has just said he has never had the
9 Albanian document.
10 MR. HANNIS: No. I think he said he never had the Albanian
11 document with paragraph numbers written on them.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] None of us know Albanian.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. The words are: "I have to say that we
14 never got the Albanian versions of any witness's statement." And then a
15 separate sentence with the relevant number. So is that -- it's confined
16 to that, with the relevant number? That's all you're complaining about.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's what I meant; the numbers, I
18 mean. Don't know the Albanian language. That's our problem. I just
19 wanted to assist the Court. I didn't want to complain.
20 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I'm Toma Fila, an attorney at law from Belgrade,
21 and I defend Mr. Sainovic.
22 Let us just clarify something very briefly. What we've been
23 dealing with here was the question of medical care in Djakovica. If I'm
24 not mistaken, your statements show that medical staff were both the Serbs
25 and Albanians and patients were probably both Albanians and Serbs and
1 others. Do you agree with me on that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. As far as I understood what you were saying, as far as I
4 understood what you were saying, your only objection was why the directors
5 of the hospitals were Serbs, not Albanians. That's on page 1 of your
6 statement. Apart from that complaint, do you have any other complaints as
7 regards medical care in the period up to 1998 except for why the directors
8 were Serbs?
9 A. All the organisations from 1990 --
10 Q. I'm talking about the hospital.
11 A. You were asking me whether there was an Albanian director before
13 JUDGE BONOMY: The question, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, is whether medical
14 care for the population in general in Gjakova until 1998 was adequate.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Actually, are you only bothered by the fact that the directors
18 were Serbs or did you have any general complaints regarding health care?
19 That is the only thing that's not clear. All the rest is clear.
20 A. They have changed everything, all the powers were taken over by
21 the Serbs because everything was being orchestrated.
22 Q. Just talking about health care. I'm just asking about health
23 care. Did people get normal medical treatment?
24 A. I'm not the competent person to explain to you the situation in
25 the hospitals. I believe yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got as good an answer as you're going to
3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you, thank you. I'm
5 grateful no more is needed.
6 Q. Do you think that with the qualifications that you have this and
7 in view of the job that you held do you think that you're in a position to
8 assess which doctor is better suited for the position of director of a
9 hospital? Are you really authorised to think about that? Do you have the
10 competence for that?
11 A. I have simply expressed my views of the situation then, how roles
12 have been changed, how Albanians were replaced by the Serbs. I was not
13 the responsible person to speak about other matters. I only know that
14 they were replaced with Serbs.
15 Q. Let's move on to another subject.
16 Well, do you know -- I mean, if you know then we can move on; if
17 not, well, let's move on. Do you know that Mrs. Sadako Agata, the UN high
18 commissioner for refugees, came to Djakovica in 1998? If you know about
19 that then we can move on.
20 A. No, no. Frankly, I don't know that. Maybe she was but I don't
21 know it. A long time has passed since then.
22 Q. We mentioned this local security. These were Albanians. You know
23 what I'm talking about, right? Okay, you know. So is it correct that
24 this local security so it's not the police, this local security existed in
25 more than 30 villages in the municipality of Djakovica and there were over
1 100 members of this local security, Albanians, that is? Is that correct?
2 A. I mentioned 53. I don't work using their names, I mean we found a
3 list in the MUP building and which I submitted to the Honourable Court, to
4 Mr. Hannis. I don't know the exact figure.
5 Q. Well, you don't have to know the exact figure. Do you know what
6 happened to these people when the KLA came?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you meet them alive and well? Did you see them alive and well
9 or perhaps did you mean them, in that interview that --
10 A. I don't know either of them, they are from the villages. None of
12 Q. You don't know whether they are alive, perhaps?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now we are quickly going to deal with a few matters to clarify
15 them. Let me continue along these lines. You said that you collected
16 about 100 statements and that the rest were collected by six lawyers, if I
17 understood you correctly, lawyers working for your organization. Or
18 perhaps they are not from your organization, I'm not sure. So I'm talking
19 about the 1.000 statements. Do you do we understand each other? Now, I'm
20 interested in the following: You did not say in which period of time
21 these statements were collected and that's very important for the record.
22 In terms of time.
23 A. You didn't ask me about that.
24 Q. I am the one who is asking the questions now.
25 A. July or August of 1999, for five months in succession.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to wait for the
2 translation into Albanian, please? Because there is overlapping.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haxhibeqiri, there is an ongoing problem here
4 of you answering sometimes a little too quickly for the interpreters.
5 Could you just wait a moment or two at the end of each question to allow
6 the interpreter to complete the translation before you answer it. Just
7 wait for the complete translation into Albanian, that's the best way, and
8 then answer when you hear that. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for that. This is due
10 to the fact that I know Serbian. That's why I tend to answer.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not your fault. It's just an administrative
12 difficulty we have. If you can make sure you listen until the
13 interpretation is finished.
14 Mr. Fila?
15 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Might I just ask for confirmation and
16 clarification in respect to the time period and the statements taken.
17 Does it refer to the 1.000 in full or to the 100?
18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he himself took 100
19 statements and the total is about 1.000.
20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Therefore, please could --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The total number of interviews was
22 about 1.000.
23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: [Previous translation continues] ... mention
24 that it took us in relation to the 1.000 or to the 100. That is what I
25 wanted to discover.
1 MR. FILA: [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Has it been answered?
3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Not as yet.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haxhibeqiri, there were in total 1.000
5 statements. When you say that they were -- the statements were taken in a
6 period of four or five months from July or August 1999, are you referring
7 to all 1.000 statements?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mean all of them. From
9 July, August, 1999 until December, I think. November, maybe December.
10 They lasted for five months. I know because we have been paying people.
11 Q. Four, five, six. You mentioned that there were six lawyers. Is
12 that what the record reflects?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness will have to start answering again,
14 says the interpreter.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were people who worked in the
17 JUDGE BONOMY: My recollection of this is that you said ten people
18 but it may be an inaccurate recollection. How many people assisted the --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were ten people who conducted
20 the interviews.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
22 Q. But I think that you said that there were six lawyers.
23 A. There were some lawyers but not all of them were lawyers. There
24 were two or three whom I know.
25 Q. They are from your organisation?
1 A. No, no, no. No, they applied for that job through the ICG and
2 they were accepted but ICG had also its own people who would conduct
3 interviews as well.
4 Q. Now I'm a bit confused but we'll clarify this very quickly. So as
5 for these 1.000 statements, they include the statements collected by you
6 and your group and the statements collected by the International Crisis
7 Group through, their own people, the lawyers and so on.
8 A. Yes, yes. I don't have the interviews conducted by the ICG people
9 but only those who were done by my own staff.
10 Q. So the lawyers were not working for you, right?
11 A. They worked for the ICG, not for me.
12 Q. You know their names perhaps?
13 A. One of them was called Ahmet Ahmeti, if I'm not wrong. Maybe
14 later on they will come to my mind. I know them personally because we
15 worked in two groups, I with my team worked in the rural areas, they
16 worked in the town and then we changed places. I came to the town, they
17 went to the villages.
18 Q. Then I really have to apologise to you for insisting this long?
19 A. Please go ahead.
20 Q. It says here that you personally conduct the 1.000 interviews and
21 that's why we are dealing with this at such length. All right. So these
22 report you sent on to the International Crisis Group?
23 A. All of them personally. I'm repeating it for the umpteenth time.
24 Each of us conducted about 100 interviews.
25 Q. I understand that, and they all ended up at the ICG, right?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you proceed, Mr. Fila, if you have now
3 completed that point, there is some clarification I would like.
4 You took 100 interviews. I understand that. How many did you
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: How many is that? Roughly.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Roughly 1.000.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And were they all taken by people that you had
10 responsibility for rather than people who were separately engaged by the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statements collected or the
13 interviews conducted by the team composed of 10 persons, they are all
14 filed in the office for -- or the Council for the Defence of Human Rights
15 and Freedoms.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Were these ten people all part of the Council for
17 the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We were two teams of five or
19 six persons each.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you talk about dividing your work between
21 the villages and the town, you're talking about these two teams, one
22 working in the village while the other is working in the town?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We worked simultaneously, one
24 day we worked in the city, the other day they worked.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. Sorry, yes.
1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Sorry, excuse me, may I request you for a
2 question? Rather a clarification. Now, the authenticity of these
3 statements is something important. Were these taken down verbatim, all
4 what the maker of the statement said, and who ensured -- who ensured that
5 those words were the words of the author? And added to that, my request
6 is that if you tell us, was there a certification to the effect that this
7 is a verbatim statement of the maker, please? Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. During the interview, always
9 there were representatives from the ICG who wanted to make sure that the
10 interview was conducted properly.
11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, I would again beg the question: What do you
12 mean, sir, properly? Because a statement can be verbatim or it could be
13 inspired. So could you deal more on this, please?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As I said, we had
15 questionnaires with questions, so the interviewees had to respond to the
16 questions contained in the form. As I said, the form was ready-made.
17 They had to respond to the questions.
18 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But excuse me, do you have a copy of that form for
19 showing us the --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
21 JUDGE CHOWHAN: With your permission, sir, can we see it?
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my only concern is that in our dealings
23 with ICG, with regard to statements that they've provided to us they have
24 been provided under Rule 70. I have no problem with the Court seeing what
25 the standard form and the questions are but it appears that this is one
1 that's filled out by a particular individual and may contain information
2 that under the agreement that he might have had with the interviewee
3 should not be disclosed without consent, et cetera. That's the only point
4 I wanted to raise.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It's an important point because the question isn't
6 directed to the format of the question. The question that's being
7 directed by Judge Chowhan relates to the way the answers are recorded and
8 that means understanding the answer.
9 MR. HANNIS: I understand that. I think the witness could answer
10 that question in terms of how he conducted interviews and how he recorded
11 information received from the interviewees without having to necessarily
12 look at one individual's form.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't have a redacted form that we can look
15 MR. HANNIS: I don't. I may be able to find one, Your Honour, or
16 create one.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: The one that's been handed up, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, is
18 that completed in Albanian?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, none of us is likely to understand anything
21 that's said in the form at the moment. So we can look at it, I think, as
22 an indicator of the layout of the form.
23 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: But I understand the sensitivity about exploring
25 the matter further. So can we see the form, please?
1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: The learned counsel could read the question, one
2 or two, just top give us a sample of what that was. It's very, very
4 MR. HANNIS: As it's in Albanian, I would have to have the witness
5 read it but I take your point, Your Honour. I think that's a good
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I might be of help to you in
8 this regard.
9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Just one or two sort of questions which are being
10 asked. That's it. You know this bar examination questionnaire of New
11 York, it asks everything and sometime it's only a little bit.
12 MR. HANNIS: If the witness has another form in front of him,
13 perhaps we could have him read what some of the standard questions are.
14 JUDGE CHOWHAN: He could show this to us later on, if you like.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] By your leave, how many forms has he
16 got with him? It might be useful for us to see one or more of them.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. Please don't answer that question,
18 Mr. Haxhibeqiri, please.
19 It's been made clear, Mr. Fila, that this information has been
20 provided under Rule 70. Now, whatever view you and I may have about Rule
21 70, it governs the situation here and I think it applies to the disclosure
22 of any of this material. It may be that some investigation can be made
23 into whether it needs to be applied rigidly but at the moment we are faced
24 with a situation where Mr. Hannis tells us that this material has been
25 provided on a confidential basis. Now your only reason for asking the
1 question you want to ask is no doubt to follow up a disclosure question
2 and that rather leads to a different -- leads us into difficult territory
3 so just hold on for the moment until we explore this a little further and
4 then I'll give you an opportunity to say what you have to say about it.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what we propose to do is follow up this matter
7 in this way. I will return this document to the witness. The witness can
8 then answer some questions about how he completed the document as
9 suggested by Mr. Hannis when he conducted interviews and counsel can
10 follow on after that if they wish. I can assure you that the Trial
11 Chamber takes nothing at all from this document other than its layout and
12 that that layout indicates some answers which could be narrative or may
13 not be. I can't tell by looking at them, and others which may simply
14 be -- some are one-word answers but they also are capable of being the
15 words of the witness but we need to find that out by asking questions.
16 Mr. O'Sullivan?
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There is one matter I would like to raise and it
18 relates to Rule 70. I think there is an a distinction to be made on who
19 in fact is in possession of this material. If it's the Prosecution, Rule
20 740 applies. If it's this witness or his organisation, that they have
21 these statements, Rule 70 does not apply to him or his organisation. And
22 if he has them we would request that they be provided to us, the Defence,
23 by the witness. We are not asking the Prosecution who apparently could
24 not get permission from the organisation. I'm assuming Mr. Hannis had
25 asked and they denied his request, but he can confirm that. My point is,
1 Rule 70 doesn't apply to the witness if he's in possession of these
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. My concern about that is that that's not the
4 way the rule has been interpreted by the Tribunal. I mean, I'm very
5 sympathetic personally to the proposition being made by Mr. O'Sullivan
6 but, as you know, before a material is disclosed in a Rule 70 basis to the
7 Defence, orders are made by the Tribunal governing that and Rule 70 is
8 regarded as applying to the Defence in spite of the way in which it's
9 worded. Now, if it applies to that extent, then there may well be an
10 argument that it applies to the witness as well. I don't think I'm in
11 favour of making a rapid decision on this, should you wish to take the
12 matter any further. Let's see where we get to with the questions that are
13 going to be asked and then if you want to raise the matter further, then
14 you're free to do so.
15 So Mr. Sabbah, give this back to the witness.
16 Now, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, what we would like to know is, when you were
17 conducting interviews, how was it that you went about dealing with the
18 form? Could you just explain that to us, please?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Preliminary questions, the
20 form of the interview. 1, 1, are you ready to testify to The Hague
21 Tribunal? Yes or no? And here is -- there is an answer to that. Second
22 question: Have you been interviewed by another international organisation
23 here or elsewhere? Have you been interviewed by any other international
24 organisation here or elsewhere? For example, when were you a refugee?
25 Basic information. Name, surname, place of birth, nationality, permanent
1 address, temporary address, name of the father, date of birth, month,
2 year, gender, profession, date of interview, month, and the year of
3 interview. Place of interview, municipality, and the name of the
5 Information related to crimes. Please be clear. Were you a
6 victim or a witness to a crime? For example, a murder, torture, sexual
7 abuse, kidnapping, destruction of property, looting, persecution, or a
8 forceful displacement? Please describe in the blank page. If you need
9 further space, please use an additional page. And we are talking about
10 this additional blank page overleaf.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: In the case of the one in front of you, when you
12 ask about an account of an event being reported, who writes the account on
13 the form?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We do, the interviewers.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: In this particular one in front of you, was it
16 necessary to go on to a blank page?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If there is more text, there
18 is the blank page overleaf.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: But in this particular one, that blank page is
20 blank still; is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: So what you have in that document is a very brief
23 description of some event.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here they've mentioned the kind of
25 crimes, starting from kidnapping. The first point is the kind of crime
1 committed. It's the date when the place -- the crime took place, the
2 place where it took place, and the time. Describe the event, the form
3 says: And I listen to what they are saying, what they have to say, and I
4 describe the event as they say it.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And is the event described there?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, there are other questions after that.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The second one is, is kind of
9 crime, displacement. And then it's the date, the place, and the time of
10 the crime. And they describe how it happened when they were displaced.
11 The form says, please describe the authors of the crime. For
12 example, the VJ, the police, the paramilitary or civilians. How were they
13 dressed? What weapons, vehicles or other equipment they used?
14 Then names, addresses, ages, and the family relations of the other
15 victims to this crime. And then additional information is required
16 further down.
17 Point 3, kind of crimes, destruction of property. Again, date,
18 place and time when the crime took place.
19 Were you a victim or a witness to the crime? They had to just put
20 in circle one of these answers, whether they were the victim or the
22 Describe what happened.
23 At the end, please describe the authors of the crime. For
24 example, the VJ, the police, the paramilitary or civilians. How were they
25 dressed? What weapons, vehicles or other equipment they used?
1 Names, addresses, ages, and family relations of other victims of
2 this crime. And additional information.
3 Under point 4, kinds of crimes, continues. If it's murder,
4 murder. If it's looting, looting. If it's rape and so on. As always,
5 date of -- date, place, and time of the crime.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Is everything else, then, the same as you've
7 already described? Now --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. At the end, describe the
9 forceful displacement. Were you forced to leave the house, yes or no?
10 Who forced you to leave the house? For example, the VJ, the police, the
11 paramilitaries or civilians. Where did you go? Please note the names of
12 the villages or towns through which you went. Can you give us details on
13 who ordered the crime and who was the author? Was it the police, was it
14 the military or the paramilitary forces during the time of your
15 displacement? At the end, it's documentation.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: You've mentioned displacement already earlier as
17 the second of the items and now you've mentioned it again as either the
18 fourth or fifth. Is displacement mentioned more than once on that form?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But in every description, we
20 are asking about the kind of the crime carried out and this is part of the
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that but is displacement there more
23 than once because of different dates or for some other reason?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, because there, there
25 were many displacements.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, at the end, is the form signed by anyone?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These forms were sent to the
3 ICG offices, they were translated into English, they were photocopied.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the one which you have in front of you one which
5 you yourself completed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. A member of my team.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: How do you come to be in possession of that
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just brought it as a sample to
10 show what kind of crime has happened to this particular person and he
11 survived that event. 30 others, 37 other people were killed on that
12 particular occasion.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: How many of the forms do you have with you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that one of the thousand?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: The -- there is some doubt about your answer to the
19 question. Was the document signed at all by anyone.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Here there is no signature.
21 But they were there present during the interview and there was a
22 translator all the time interpreting.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the people from the ICG every
25 now and then intervened to clarify.
1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm not satisfied, sir, and therefor I, with
2 permission of my lord, I'm asking this. Even in the first form, before
3 you sent it to the crisis group, the organisation you are mentioning, and
4 you took down or somebody wrote these forms, these were not signed by the
5 person who was being interviewed? Did he not at all sign? This must be
6 clarified. Did no one sign?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Fila, please continue with your
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. But Mr. Hannis
12 will not keep his word.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: What was his word?
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yesterday, you said that we should
15 agree on the length of the cross-examination. We managed to reach an
16 agreement but you have used our time. I apologise.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sure it's been greatly to your advantage,
18 Mr. Fila.
19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Witness, I apologise. I just wanted to clarify a further point.
21 When you received this form from the crisis group, was it in Albanian or
22 was it in English and then translated into Albanian, if you recall?
23 A. In Albanian, it was.
24 Q. Do you know who composed it?
25 A. No, I don't know.
1 Q. Well, I may be asking you to speculate now but don't you think
2 that the original might have been in English and then somebody translated
3 into Albanian so you could use it? However, if you don't know --
4 A. I haven't seen anything. I consider that these are very
5 peripheral questions, rather unimportant.
6 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, as far as I can see, there is no mention either
7 of the KLA or of NATO in this form?
8 A. It's mentioned in the answers given to the questions.
9 Q. There is no question concerning the KLA or NATO. Very well.
10 Let's move on. But there is a question as to whether they are willing to
11 testify before The Hague Tribunal. I'll try to move on quite fast.
12 Can it be put on the record that the witness replied that this was
13 the first question?
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note they did not hear the
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
17 Q. My question was whether there was a question in the form as to
18 whether they were willing to testify before The Hague Tribunal and the
19 witness answered that that was the first question in the form.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. That's noted in any event from his original
21 answers when he described the form.
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you said that you were the president of the
24 council for the protection of human rights and so on. May I conclude that
25 based on everything you have said over the past few days, you dealt
1 exclusively with human rights violations where Albanian human rights were
2 violated? You did not deal with human rights violations where the victims
3 were Serbs, Roma or others?
4 A. We have recorded the cases as they came to us. Whoever came to
5 our office to record their case we've done it, and if they haven't turned
6 up, come to our office to do that, then we are not aware.
7 Q. But did you conduct investigations on the ground throughout the
8 time you were in that organisation? Did you investigate any cases of
9 human rights violations where the victims were non-Albanians, they were
10 Turks, for example, or others?
11 A. No. There were no Turks or others. I have gone -- I went to the
12 offices of the Red Cross, International Red Cross, to check with them, and
13 I've interviewed certain victims -- a certain number of victims there, and
14 they are in the book, actually. And when I read the book, I heard
15 about -- I heard about many other victims. I -- that's where I learned
16 about the victims and how many people were missing, and they are in the
17 book written by the International Red Cross and they are -- they appear
18 there as missing or killed.
19 Q. I'm not asking about you personally.
20 A. I told you that we haven't had access to those victims. They did
21 not come to us to record their case. I don't know why they didn't come to
23 Q. Yes. I understand that but my question was: Did you go to those
24 places to see, yes or no?
25 A. We were not allowed by the police to approach them.
1 Q. After 1999, when you carried out these investigations, what police
2 then prevented you from going? There, out on to the ground, to see there
3 were no Serbs in Djakovica, for example?
4 A. No one prevented us then. We have evidenced all cases.
5 Q. That's my question, if you dealt with all human rights violations.
6 Did you record any torchings of Serb churches, that those 3 per cent Serbs
7 were no longer there, that you mentioned. As far as I know there are just
8 a few women left. Did you notice that and, if you did, where did you
9 write this down?
10 A. There were a few churches, in the centre of the city and there was
11 one church there which was destroyed, after the war. It was a church
12 which was built, there were political motives there.
13 Q. I just wanted to say very briefly the following: I visited your
14 web site. On your site of your human rights centre, it always says that
15 Albanian human rights were violated by Serbs. There were no other reports
16 there. I'm only asking why, nothing more.
17 A. I've said that I have only recorded the cases for the people who
18 have come to my office to our offices, and those who didn't come, I don't
20 Q. Are human rights a universal category or do they apply only to
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's argumentative.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: It is argumentative and this question has been
24 asked by a number of people and the answer has always been the same, we
25 deal with the cases which are reported to us, and if you have an example
1 of a Serb trying to report a case that has not been taken up by this
2 organisation, then I would like to hear about it.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have one further question. It's
4 evidently time for a break.
5 Q. Do you know that before this Court, Mr. Abrahams and others
6 testified, and that they observed human rights violations perpetrated by
7 the KLA on the territory of Djakovica? Do you know anything about this?
8 Yes or no?
9 A. Don't know what he's testified but I have accompanied Mr. Abrahams
10 on the ground during a visit there. What he has testified here, I don't
12 Q. If you went there, didn't you see human right violations carried
13 out by the KLA, if Abrahams saw those and he testified about that here?
14 In Djakovica, there were human rights violations by the KLA, kidnappings
15 murders, lootings, and so on. Are you trying to say that if Abrahams
16 testified about this? He wasn't telling the truth?
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour that's vague and compound, and I think
18 there is no way the witness can answer that question.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I agree, and I sustain the objection to that
21 You'll need to reformulate it in a specific way that the witness
22 can deal with it.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
24 Q. If Mr. Abrahams said something like that, would you accept it?
25 MR. HANNIS: Something like what, Your Honour? Like the previous
1 vague question?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. What -- please put a specific question, Mr.
3 Fila, to the witness. What is it you say Abrahams saw that you think this
4 witness may also have seen?
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Maybe it's time for a break,
6 Your Honour, and then I will do that after the break.
7 JUDGE CHOWHAN: [Microphone not activated]
8 MR. HANNIS: No objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll resume at five minutes past 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila?
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] To continue, Your Honours, where I left
14 off, I would like the Chamber just to look at page 1038, lines 13 to
15 214 -- no, 13 to 24. This is testimony of Mr. Abrahams. I would like to
16 just provide the Chamber with the basis for my question, why I put the
17 question to this witness, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.
18 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have this on the e-court or do we have to
20 find it ourselves?
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have it.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: We have to find the transcript ourselves. Which
23 date are we talking about, Mr. Fila?
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The 7th of August. Page 1038, lines 13
25 to 24.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that relates to a specific period. Is that
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It's 1998, Your Honour, you can see
4 that at the top.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So if -- the first thing to establish is when the
6 visit took place, that the witness accompanied Mr. Abrahams on.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's not what I wanted to ask. I
8 just need a little time to finish.
9 Q. Mr. Abrahams said in his testimony that in the subject period,
10 198 Serbs and Albanians disappeared, and that the KLA was responsible for
11 that. Do you know anything about this? What is your comment on that?
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm not sure that properly states what
13 the transcript says, as far as the KLA being responsible for the 198 Serbs
14 and Albanians disappearing. I think he indicated that was the number the
15 Red Cross reported as disappearing but I'm not sure the link was stated.
16 I don't have that transcript in front of me right at the moment.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I think you're right, Mr. Hannis. The
18 statement is: I'm not able to answer how many incidents were in
19 particular but if I'm not mistaken I would have to consult with our
20 reports but I think 198, both Albanians and Serbs went missing during 1998
21 and that figure is from the International Committee of the Red Cross. So
22 the point Mr. Hannis is making, Mr. Fila, is that that could on one view
23 be the total number of people who went missing no matter who was
24 responsible for their disappearance. But the earlier part --
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand. Then I will ask
1 him like this: Is he aware that in that period, in the territory of
2 Djakovica, 198 people disappeared and that the KLA was responsible for all
3 or some of those disappearances, ask him if he's aware of this or not.
4 MR. HANNIS: Again, that's not completely accurate because there
5 is not necessarily a connection with the KLA for any of the 198. It's
6 possible. If the point my colleague wants to make is that Mr. Abrahams
7 said he's aware of some human rights violations by the KLA in the
8 Djakovica area in the spring and summer of 1998, I agree that's what he
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I can assist, since this was the area
11 that I was cross-examining Mr. Abrahams on. If you scroll up to my
12 original question that elicited this response, you'll see I focused Mr.
13 Abrahams exactly on KLA activities against the civilian population. So I
14 believe that it is clear that he was testifying with respect to activities
15 of the KLA against civilians. Looking at page 1038, line 3 through 12,
16 which is the original question where I asked him to focus on KLA
17 activities aimed at civilians in the Djakovica area and the response by
18 Mr. Abrahams from 13 to 16 saying he doesn't know -- that most of the
19 incidents he's familiar with are in this period and then we start talking
20 about the incidents and he says, "I can identify how many incidents were
21 in particular," and then he talks about the people missing based on what
22 knowledge he does have. So I do believe that there is sufficient linkage
23 in the transcript record that these incidents that we are talking about
24 related to KLA activities against civilians.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll allow the witness to answer the question the
1 way in which it was put.
2 Mr. Haxhibeqiri, the question is are you aware that 198 people
3 disappeared in the territory of Djakovica in the course of 1998? That's
4 the first part of the question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have records of about 160 cases of
6 civilian victims in the territory of our municipality during that period.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And are you aware of --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mainly in the villages.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you aware of any of them being victims of KLA
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, you can take it on from there, if you
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you know if any of the victims were Serbs, any of the victims
16 in the Djakovica territory? A victim of the KLA, I mean?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You were taking care about the protection of human rights in that
19 area, right?
20 A. I read -- I read it in the book by the Red Cross and Natasa
21 Kandic. It was there that I learned of it.
22 Q. And my last question: My last question is: On the first page of
23 your statement, you mention a fact that I found no where else but there.
24 I'm going to read that to you. You say that between 500 and 800 [as
25 interpreted] Kosovo Albanian left Kosovo before 1998, so that was from the
1 time that Milosevic came to power. How did you get this figure? We
2 didn't find that anywhere else, not amongst the Red Cross figures or
3 anywhere else.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think the figure is wrongly recorded in the
6 Hold on, please, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.
7 Could you repeat the figure, please, Mr. Fila?
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] 500.000, not 50. 500.000 to 800.000,
9 not 500 to 800.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 700.000.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Have you found that in your statement?
13 A. Yes. You said how have you come up with such figures? We saw
14 reports published every day in our newspapers. You can identify the
15 figures from the states that have taken in those Albanians. They must
16 have the records of those immigrants. If -- you know, to have accurate
17 figures, you can ask these states. Personally I have taken these figures
18 from the newspapers. Even today a large number of them are abroad.
19 Q. First of all, which newspaper?
20 A. Ours.
21 Q. The newspaper you said that was not being published? All right,
22 very well.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: 1999, I think.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned two newspapers that
25 appeared then.
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
2 Q. All right. But until then it was. So how did you connect the
3 500.000 to 800.000, 500.000 to 800.000 -- no, actually to 700.000. I
5 A. I said 700.000.
6 Q. So how did you connect that to Milosevic when Germany and others
7 were talking about immigration but economic immigration. They went to
8 work, there are some of my Macedonians there and my Serbs also.
9 A. This is a political immigration. Yes, there have been people from
10 other ethnicities that have left Serbia. This is a fact. But we were
11 obliged to leave our country because of the violence exercised against us,
12 because of the closing down of schools, of lack of employment, lack of
13 prospective for the future. Mainly our youths had to leave the country.
14 Q. I didn't understand you.
15 A. Mainly youths were obliged to leave because of terror and
17 Q. Wasn't the youth from the whole of Yugoslavia at that time
18 leaving, trying to find -- leaving, going abroad, because of the bad
19 situation in the country? That is all.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
21 Your Honour.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about my own country.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic?
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
1 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I am Tomislav Visnjic, and together with my
2 colleagues, Norman Sepenuk and Marko Sladojevic, I am defending
3 General Ojdanic. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I will put some questions to you, also
4 relating to figures, numbers. It will tie on to what my colleague,
5 Mr. Fila, was saying.
6 In your statement and in your testimony here before this Tribunal,
7 you said that in the municipality of Djakovica before 1989, there was a
8 total of 129.000 inhabitants; is that correct?
9 A. No. I said 120.000.
10 Q. 120.000, yes, I agree.
11 A. Since there is no census taken, figures can be manipulated.
12 Recently they say the population is 150.000 -- 158.000, which shows that
13 not -- no accurate figures exist because of lack of census. But I don't
14 think that's important.
15 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you also said that the percentage of
16 non-Albanians never was higher than 2 per cent; is that correct?
17 A. We are always talking about the last decade. I haven't heard of
18 any other figure. It might be 2 or 3 per cent, roughly. I always refer
19 to official figures.
20 Q. You referred to official figures so now I'm asking you: This
21 estimate of 2 per cent and this estimate of 120.000 inhabitants, is that
22 your own estimate or is that the figure of your organisation, the
23 organisation that you were a president of for a certain period of time?
24 A. I said I refer to official statistics or figures. My organisation
25 has never taken any population census. We've heard it, we've read it.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
3 Exhibit 3D6, page 3 of that document?
4 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, this is a document in the English language. I'm
5 going to read two sentences to you from that document. And this is
6 something that I would like to present to you for your consideration.
7 Thank you. Page 3, first paragraph, third sentence, in English, it
8 says, [In English] "Before the conflict was 93 percentage of Kosovo
9 Albanians and 7 percentage non-minority communities including some 3.000
10 Kosovo Serbs who mostly lived in main town."
11 [Interpretation] Mr. Haxhibeqiri, this is a publication called
12 Municipal Profile of Djakovica dating from 2003. It was published by the
13 OSCE mission in Kosovo. Is there any particular reason why you do not
14 accept the percentage -- the number of 7 per cent as the non-Albanian
15 population in the municipality of Gjakova?
16 A. I told you I have never seen these statistics written anywhere.
17 What sources do you refer to? You said the UNMIK or I believe they are
18 approximate figures. There is no way how UNMIK can know accurately
19 without a census being taken.
20 Q. Very well. And how did you then come to this figure of 2 per cent
21 of the Serbian population, if -- or the non-Albanian population, if the
22 census had not -- was not carried out? How did you get to that figure of
23 2 per cent of the non-Albanian population?
24 A. I always refer to official figures. I have constantly seen such
25 figures published.
1 Q. Can you give me any publication where these figures were cited?
2 A. In all bulletins all the time.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis? Are you on your feet?
4 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour. I'm not sure how to go about
5 this. I would just indicate within the document itself, although I agree
6 with what Mr. Visnjic read about the 7 per cent, I see the chart below
7 lists a percentage figure for January 1999, which is different than what
8 it says in the text.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know if it is different because I think
10 that is -- well ...
11 MR. HANNIS: The percentage of Albanian.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But the -- I don't think it is different
13 because the 2 per cent does make sense as the Kosovo Serb population. Is
14 that the figure you're pointing to, the 2 per cent?
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: 3.000 is roughly 2 per cent. I don't think there
17 is any argument about that. The question so far has been about the
18 overall non-Albanian population which is being put at a higher figure.
19 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, and the Albanian is listed at 98
20 per cent. Plus 2 is a hundred.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.
22 Mr. Visnjic?
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that leads me to the
24 conclusion, and I will ask the witness the following.
25 Q. Other than Serbs in the municipality of Djakovica, were there any
1 other inhabitants who were not Albanian?
2 A. Yes, Montenegrins, Romas, and Bosnians.
3 Q. Is there an ethnic community by the name of Ashkali?
4 A. No. We call them Albanian Egyptians, but in the Kosovo plateau
5 they are called Ashkali plateau.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Dukagjini plateau, correction.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And you count them in the category of others, not as Albanians?
9 Could you please reply? I'm now going to go step by step. Do you agree
10 with me that there were about 3.000 Serbs in the municipality of Djakovica
11 in January 1998?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters don't hear the witness.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you repetition that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't work in the statistics
16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, can you tell me how many Serbs are living now in
18 the Djakovica municipality?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, can you tell me how many other ethnic groups,
21 other than the Albanians, are living in the municipality of Djakovica
22 now? Approximately, you don't have to give me the exact figures.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I would like to ask page 7 to be shown, this same
25 document, page 7. Before I put my question, I'm going to say to you that
1 in this document, there is a list of NGOs active in the Djakovica
2 municipality. On page 7, line 4, there is a reference to your
3 organisation, the Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms,
4 and the objectives of your organisation are referred to. Since you were
5 president of that organisation I assume that it will not be difficult for
6 you to recall the following. The objectives of your organisation are the
7 collection of human rights violations data and report publication,
8 training, seminars, promotion of independent media, election monitoring.
9 I assume it's electronic media that's referred to. I'm sorry, election
10 monitoring. And last but not least, minority rights protection. My
11 question, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, is the following: Does your organisation deal
12 with minority rights at all, or is this inaccurate, this objective of your
13 organisation mentioned here?
14 A. No, no. Your question is irrelevant. I repeated it several times
15 that we didn't have access to Serbian events, documents, and Montenegrin,
16 but as far as the others are concerned, we tried to maintain an equitable
17 stand towards all of them, as far as we could under the circumstances.
18 Q. Does this pertain to the period after 1999 as well? I mean up to
19 2002 while you were president of the organisation. I'm referring to the
20 period starting after June 1999 and up to 2002.
21 A. Can you please repeat the question? What do you want me to
23 Q. Well, my question: Did your organisation deal with the protection
24 of the human rights of minorities after June 1999, up to 2002?
25 A. Yes, exactly as it is said there.
1 Q. Can you describe to me at least some of the activities that your
2 organisation had in terms of minority protection in Djakovica?
3 A. We have organised seminars, we have held a catchup school with
4 Albanian Egyptian community, accelerated schools, they are called.
5 Whoever has come to our office to ask for assistance, we have provided
7 Q. Did you offer any help? Did you offer any help to the Serb
8 community or the Montenegrin community?
9 A. Yes. Free of charge, juridical assistance, legal assistance, we
10 have provided to all of them who have come to our office and asked for it.
11 After the war, no Serbs or Montenegrins have come to our offices for
12 assistance. All the rest, yes.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri. We will get to that again
14 later. Let me ask you something else now.
15 My next group of questions has to do with your work with the
16 International Crisis Group. You described in detail how you worked with
17 these forms and I wanted to ask you the following. Can you tell me how
18 you conducted interviews? How many people were present? Let's start with
19 that. Who would bring in a witness? Your organisation, your people, did
20 they bring witnesses to the representatives of the ICG for them to be
22 A. We addressed them. We went to villages by car, five of us, and
23 the ICG representative who was present during the interviews. He was
24 English usually. Can't remember the name. There were others too.
25 Q. Yes. All right. What was it that you said, how many
1 representatives of the ICG would usually be there? One?
2 A. There were two or three sometimes but usually there was one. As
3 we divided ourselves in two groups, there was one in each group.
4 Q. So when there were several representatives of the International
5 Crisis Group there, they would usually be subdivided into groups, if there
6 were several interviewees at a given time? Did I understand you
8 A. They came time after time to monitor the activity.
9 Q. All right. When you came to villages, I'm talking about the
10 post-war period, where did you usually conduct interviews? Was it in
11 houses, at a particular place like a local commune centre in a village?
12 A. It was in private houses, in the courtyards, in their rooms, if
13 the weather was not good.
14 Q. Yes. I assume that you always tried to have decent working
15 conditions to have a table and electricity for a computer?
16 A. At that time there were no computers in villages.
17 Q. Let's leave computers aside. You wanted to have the right
18 conditions for working?
19 A. Well, accommodation was not important at the time.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Says the witness in Serbian.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the house was not burned, we
22 would get into the premises of the house, to conduct the interview inside
23 if it was raining, but most of the interviews was conducted in the
24 courtyard of the houses we went to. There were no computers at the time.
25 There was no electricity. The houses were burned massively.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Very well. You said that you cannot remember the name of any
3 International Crisis Group representative; is that correct?
4 A. I have their names recorded but it's seven years now so I've
5 forgotten them. I can't remember them off the top of my head, but I can
6 fax them to you if you want them. I can send them to you.
7 Q. Very well. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, could you please tell me whether you
8 interviewed a person by the name of Bajram Bucaliu?
9 A. No. I can't remember. Maybe he's in my file but I can't
11 Q. Do you recall interviewing a person by the name of Muharem Dashi?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. Do you recall interviewing a person by the name of Merita Deda?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall interviewing a person by the name of Shukri
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you remember interviewing a person by the name of
19 Behar Haxhiavdija?
20 A. I haven't interviewed Behar.
21 Q. Did you speak with Hani Hoxha?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you interview him for the International Crisis Group?
24 A. Others, but not Hani.
25 Q. Very well. And did you speak with a person by the name of Bedri
2 A. No.
3 Q. Kuci or Kuqi?
4 A. I can talk about one or two because I have interviewed hundreds
5 but I cannot remember all their names.
6 Q. I'm not trying to get you to recall all but at least to remember
7 one person that you interviewed, Osman Kuci or Kuqi. We don't have an
8 answer here. I don't have the answer in the transcript. This is why I'm
9 asking you again.
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Dout Imeraj?
12 A. No,
13 Q. And Mehmet Avdili?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 Q. Do you recall -- oh, there is no reply. Can you please repeat
16 your answer for Mehmet Avdili? It's not in the transcript. This is why
17 I'm asking you.
18 A. No, no.
19 Q. Do you recall where you talked with Merita Deda? Was that in her
20 village or was that in Djakovica? I know a lot of time has passed since
21 then but --
22 A. In her home or in the courtyard, if she is from Guske or
23 Korenica. It seems to me it's from Guske.
24 Q. During that conversation, there was a representative of the
25 International Crisis Group present. One of them or more of them?
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. I can't remember. I met Merita at the hotel because I had
4 forgotten who she was, and I don't think I have interviewed Merita.
5 Q. Did you speak with her or not? Do you remember?
6 A. I have to see who filled in her form. That's how I would know if
7 I spoke with her or not.
8 Q. Very well. But when you were filling in the questionnaires and
9 the section of the form where it says the person who filled in the form,
10 did you put in your name there or somebody else's name? When you filled
11 in the questionnaire, there is a section there where -- let me just put
12 the question to you. There is a section on the form of the person that is
13 conducting the interview, am I right? When you read your interview form,
14 that was one of the sections?
15 A. Yes. The name of the interviewer, the name and the surname of the
16 interviewer is there.
17 Q. So that's why I'm waiting.
18 A. I'm also waiting.
19 Q. Did you write your own name in that part of the form? You
20 conducted the interview. Did you put one name in that part or several
22 A. As I said earlier I'm not sure whether -- whether it was me who
23 conducted the interview or whether I've completed the name. What are you
24 trying to say is that what are you asking me to do?
25 Q. I'm not interested in Merita Deda?
1 A. Merita is here. Ask her.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Says the witness in Serbian.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I'm going to ask her but I'm just asking you did you interview any
5 of the other 100 people there, when you did whose name would you enter in
6 that particular place where it says person who inter -- conducted the
8 A. You're not clear in what you're asking about.
9 Q. I'm asking you if you are the interviewer, if you are conducting
10 the interview, please read out in that form of yours who was the
11 interviewer, what does it say there under "interviewer," the person who
12 conducted the interview? That will do.
13 A. Whom? I said it will be one of our team. You may ask Merita who
14 was she interviewed by. Why are you insisting on this with me?
15 Q. I'm not asking about Merita any longer.
16 A. I don't have the file of Merita here with me. If I had the file
17 with me, I would have shown you.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you're not being asked about her
19 at the moment. You're being asked in general, and the general question is
20 being asked by reference to the document you brought with you. Now, if
21 you look at the document which you showed us earlier, in the place where
22 the note should be made of the name of the person conducting the
23 interview, in that particular form, what name has been noted?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I'm looking for here.
25 If he knows, let him tell me.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. You're being asked to tell us what name
2 has been recorded as the name of the person who conducted the interview.
3 Now, look at the form and tell us the answer to that.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you -- if you're asking about
5 this interview, this is not Merita's file. This is the file of somebody
7 JUDGE BONOMY: We know that. You're not being asked about Merita
8 Deda. You're being asked in general about the conduct of these
9 interviews. Do you understand that? And you're being asked about how
10 they were conducted in general but by reference to the document which you
11 brought to court. Now, look, please, at that document and tell us whose
12 name has been inserted at the place where you put the name of the person
13 conducting the interview.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of the interviewer there is
15 Besa Morina. It's member of the council for the defence of human rights
16 and freedoms.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Now, Mr. Visnjic.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, there it was a bit of a
21 misunderstanding but we have resolved that and I think you've just
22 answered my question right now. So let me add on to this: You did not
23 enter the name of the representative of the ICG, who was with you at that
24 time or near you at the time when the interview was conducted, right?
25 Thank you.
1 A. I've got all their names. I may send them to you.
2 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri --
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I hear that again there
4 is something missing from the transcript. Mr. Haxhibeqiri said "me,"
5 [phoen] no. That is to say that they did not enter the names of the
6 representatives of the International Crisis Group who were with them at
7 the time and who were near them at the time. I would like this to be
8 clear in the transcript.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that many times there are
10 several speakers speaking at the same time and all the booths cannot hear
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Should I put the question again?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: We note that that was the answer. Carry on.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, did you ever work for the OSCE, you or your
16 organisation? Did you ever work for the Organization for European
17 Security and Cooperation?
18 A. No, never.
19 Q. Thank you. Again, the answer was not recorded. Ah, now it is.
20 Thank you. I'll go back to the form. I hope it's not too much trouble
21 for you to look at the form that you showed the Judges a few moments ago,
22 and at the same time I would like to ask to show on the monitor 3D02.
23 That's an exhibit from earlier on that was admitted.
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not going to ask
25 the witness about the document that's on your monitors right now but I did
1 ask for it to be shown because of something that I would like to compare.
2 I'm going to ask him about what is written in his form.
3 Q. So in your form, as you explained --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please speak into the
6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, today, on pages 22 and
7 23, the witness read the form that is before you now. And there is a
8 rubric here stating describe the perpetrators of the crime and then it
9 said the army of Yugoslavia, the police, paramilitaries, and civilians.
10 Or civilians.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: The form we have on the screen is from Merita Deda?
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, because
13 that form says something different. I'm telling you now what the witness
14 said that his form said.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, but this is not one of the forms of his
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Your Honour,
18 it is a form of his organisation that was disclosed to us as a form and as
19 an electronic form of the International Crisis Group.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we had --
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: We had this problem before with the source of this
23 but this as I understand it was disclosed in the context of the evidence
24 of either Mitchell - it was probably Mitchell - and wasn't said, I think,
25 at that stage to have come from the CDHRF that we are hearing about from
1 this witness. It was material which had been gathered by the OSCE and
2 then -- and the explanation sort of hung in the air, had become
3 incorporated into other material on the ICG database or alternatively I
4 think they had been given some job of managing the data. Now, it doesn't
5 follow immediately, does it, that this is as compiled by Mr. Haxhibeqiri's
7 MR. VISNJIC: [In English] May I explain?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, first of all, what I'm discussing now with the
11 judges has nothing to do with the question that I'm going to put to you so
12 please rest assured that it has nothing to do with what I'm going to be
13 asking you. I'm going to talk to the judges about a completely different
14 matter now.
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] According to Rule 66(A)(ii), the OTP
16 disclosed to us a total of nine statements that were provided to us as
17 material from the International Crisis Group.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] In that material, that we received
20 these nine statements, one of the statements is this one, the one that you
21 see before you right now, and that is Merita Deda's statement which was
22 disclosed to us as material from the ICG. I'm not claiming that that it's
23 material from the ICG. That is from the Prosecution asserts. That is why
24 I put this document before this witness now. There is yet another
25 document that was disclosed to us as an OSCE document. It was disclosed
1 to us later, and it so happened that it contains the same text. But I'm
2 not going back to that form now. I am now talking about the form of the
3 International Crisis Group that was disclosed to us as such. If the
4 Prosecutor tells us now that this is not material of the ICG, then I can
5 withdraw my question. But for the time being, this is what we got from
6 them, only a definition stating that this is material of the International
7 Crisis Group and that it falls under Rule 66(A)(ii). And by the way,
8 today we filed a motion regarding that particular question and I'm sure
9 that we will discuss it later on.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, do you accept that this was
11 disclosed on the basis that it was from the International Crisis Group.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would premise my remarks with
13 indicating that Mr. Stamp is more familiar with this particular issue
14 because of dealing with Ms. Mitchell he will but I'm looking at the form
15 that's on the screen right now, which is K 0213894, and the top line says,
16 "ICG database incidents." There is another document that Mr. Visnjic
17 made a reference to with which is K 0529762, which is referred to as the
18 OSCE materials. It's my understanding that we received materials from
19 both of those agencies to manage that data. What I understand is
20 internally we created a data base and put that information in. Not in the
21 raw form in which it was received but into a database that we created and
22 transported the raw data. But with regard to the witness's form, my
23 understanding is the forms that he used with the Council for the Defence
24 of Human Rights and Freedoms was in Albanian.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Set that aside for the moment. It's the provenance
1 of this that matters. And the point Mr. Visnjic is making is that this
2 has been handed to him as a document, which was an ICG document. Now, do
3 you dispute that?
4 MR. HANNIS: I'm note sure if it was as ICG document or
5 information that came from ICG documents.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, it's not clear as far as the
7 Prosecution are concerned. Therefore you can proceed, Mr. Visnjic.
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: With respect, we were told that ICG was protected
9 under Rule 70 before the break and now it's disclosed to us.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm going to come back to you later. Let's just
11 get the questions finished first of all.
12 Yes Mr. Visnjic, carry on.
13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. So I'm going back to page 22 and 23. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, we are
15 coming back to the questions for you now.
16 In your own form, you described as the possible options for a
17 witness's answer that crimes were committed either by the army or the
18 police or paramilitaries or civilians; is that correct?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. Is there any other option, any other possibility in your form?
21 Again, I don't have an answer. I'm going to ask you again.
22 A. I don't know but if you know anything let me know. For the
23 moment, I don't know.
24 Q. Just a moment, please. I have to ask you yet again because your
25 answer has not been recorded. So is it correct that in your form there
1 are only the following options for perpetrators of crimes, the army, the
2 police, paramilitaries, and civilians?
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: What was your answer.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. What was your answer to that question?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked to read the text? And
9 whether I -- whether I agree with the drafting of that text, of the ICG,
10 and I said yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: No. The question is whether in your form, that's
12 the form your organisation was using, there are only the following options
13 for perpetrators of crimes: The army, the police, paramilitaries and
14 civilians. Now, is that correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Visnjic?
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, these options were offered as options in the case
19 of all crimes, murder, kidnapping, and relocation or rather forcible
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, I'm going to ask you, as an experienced
23 investigator because you conducted so many interviews, had this research
24 of yours been carried out, say, in the Roma community and if they were
25 given this kind of form, had they been given this kind of form, and had
1 the Roma moved out because their homes were bombed by NATO, do you see any
2 possibility, any option that they could actually fill out in this form of
4 A. In some instances, yes. They came to the office, to the ICG and
5 reported their cases.
6 Q. Are you telling me that there are forms where NATO bombing was put
7 in as a reason for relocation or deportation or people moving out?
8 A. Deportation was a forceful one and not because of fear of NATO
9 bombing. Albanians did not flee the country out of fear. Can you please
10 let me finish?
11 Q. Could you answer the question, please?
12 A. NATO did not instill any fear among the Albanians, as you are
13 trying to present it.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haxhibeqiri, please listen to what you're being
15 asked. It's not for to you choose to -- what you want to tell us. Your
16 obligation here, I'm afraid, whether you like it or not, is to answer the
17 questions that are being put to you. Now, you've been here for the best
18 part of three days, more than two days certainly, and you must understand
19 by now what is the procedure. You're an intelligent person. And I'm not
20 going to be deflected from trying to get to the truth of these matters
21 because you choose to answer different questions from the ones that are
22 being asked.
23 This series of questions is about the form that's being used.
24 And the point is being asked of you, where is the option in your form, for
25 anyone who comes to the office, whether they be a Roma, an Albanian, or
1 anyone else, to say, "I left my home because of fear of NATO bombing"?
2 Now, can you answer that, please?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. None of them did that.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the question. You're answering a
5 different question. The question is, was there a place in your form in
6 which you would -- you would --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Realtime transcript read in error
8 "werpgs"] No. In the form there was no place. I think I explained that
9 because I was several times -- you have the form here, you can see it.
10 You can look it for yourselves.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, Mr. Visnjic, there is equally a point to
12 be made here that many of these questions are simply asking for answers
13 that are already obvious and they are all matters for argument later. And
14 because the question -- the answer to the question is obvious, the witness
15 probably thinks, What on earth is he asking this for? It must be
16 something more subtle that is behind these questions? Let's get on with
17 the job.
18 So I think you're both here to some extent at fault in the way in
19 which this is being presented. You only need to look at the form to know
20 that there is no point in it that says, Were you driven out by fear of
21 NATO bombing.
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I don't have his
23 form so I am restricted to that degree. Another thing I'd like to say, if
24 you look at his form -- may I please continue or rather finish? If you
25 look at his form and if you look at the form that is in front of you and
1 if it is correct that that's two forms come from the same organisation,
2 then it is obvious that somebody either translated differently the form
3 that is in front of us now in electronic form or in his form there is
4 absolutely no possibility for a different answer. That is what I'm
5 putting to him.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, it's all far too complicated for this
7 witness to deal with. It's not even clear who conducted the interview
8 that the Deda form relates to. It's a typewritten version that looks like
9 it's been compiled at a later date from other material that was
10 handwritten. So I don't know where we are going on this. I think we are
11 going around in circles, frankly.
12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Might I state for the purposes of the record
13 here that at page 54, line 16, part of the witness's answer has been
14 ascribed to Judge Bonomy.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's certainly noted.
16 But please carry on now, Mr. Visnjic.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Microphone not activated]
18 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you said to us that in some cases, if I
19 understood your answer correctly, the Roma did come to your office, or to
20 see the ICG, and they reported cases of their leaving their homes because
21 of NATO bombing. So that is correct, right?
22 A. No. I don't know of any statements to that effect, to prove that
23 they left because of NATO bombing. I don't know of any such cases. There
24 may have been some sporadic cases of people declaring that they have left
25 because of fear of bombs.
1 Q. Did you note down such cases anywhere?
2 A. Which cases do you mean? Can you be more explicit, please?
3 Q. I'm referring to your statement that there may have been some
4 sporadic cases of people declaring that they had left because of fear of
5 bombs. My question is, did you record such cases?
6 A. Yes. In cases of children who were under great pressure and
7 suffered traumas. They couldn't bear with the bombing in the Ivica Brod
8 [phoen] village where the military base was situated.
9 Q. Did you submit this information in any form to the International
10 Crisis Group or the office of the OTP?
11 A. Which information?
12 Q. Information that [In English] "Children under great pressure and
13 suffered traumas, they couldn't bear with the bombing in the village where
14 the military base was situated."
15 [No interpretation] --
16 A. I'm answering you. You asked me whether there were people who
17 were afraid of NATO bombs and I said yes. I don't know of any written
18 records. I'm just saying that children were afraid of them.
19 Q. But you just told --
20 A. But I can tell you that no one was afraid of NATO.
21 Q. But in answer to my question, as to whether you recorded any such
22 cases, your answer was: Yes, in cases of children who were under great
23 pressure and so on and so forth. So you recorded those cases somewhere.
24 That was my question. Your answer was affirmative. Now I'm asking you
25 the following. Let me complete my question. Did you inform the crisis
1 group of this in any way or the OTP of this Tribunal?
2 A. They have their own representatives there, the International
3 Crisis Group has prepared a report. I don't know if you have read that
4 report. They have often drawn conclusions about that situation.
5 Q. Very well, Mr. Haxhibeqiri. Thank you. We'll move on.
6 Very briefly, please take your statement, on page 4, paragraph 2
7 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 1 of the English version, and paragraph 1
8 of the Albanian version.
9 Mr. Haxhibeqiri, before we move on to this, another question about
10 the ICG. Did you receive any kind of training before you started working
11 for the ICG? I mean training in interviewing witnesses.
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Who trained you?
14 A. The ICG staff.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 Q. Now we are coming to paragraph 1 in the Albanian version of your
18 statement. In the second part of that paragraph you mention a person by
19 the name of Dragutin Prentic and in your statement you say the
20 following --
21 A. It's not in the first paragraph.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the first paragraph on page 4.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I found it. Yes.
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You refer to an incident in which he wrote an article?
1 A. It was not me. It was the witnesses.
2 Q. After the publication of this article, employees of the post
3 office were sacked. My question is, in what year was that article
4 published and to what period does this statement refer?
5 A. It is 1999.
6 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you're telling me that Dragutin Prentic published
7 an article in 1999 and that after the publication of that article, all the
8 Albanians who were employees of the post office were sacked? Did I
9 understand you correctly?
10 A. No. The year is not marked at all.
11 Q. No. I'm asking you in what year that article was published.
12 A. This article was published on the day one day before the violent
13 repressive measures were introduced in the post office of the town.
14 Q. What year was that?
15 A. I don't know. I can't give you the exact time but I mentioned the
16 period from 1990 to 1993.
17 Q. Very well, Mr. Haxhibeqiri.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, does that -- is that an accurate record of
19 the answer? You initially said this was 1999. When is it you say it
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I said from the 1990s to
22 1999. That was the period when the roles changed.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: But you're being asked about a particular article
24 written by Dragutin Prentic, which you say was the day before, the day
25 before Albanian employees of the post office were sacked. Now, when was
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said approximately between 1990
3 until 1993. That was a period when this happened, I believe.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic?
5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri --
7 A. Yes?
8 Q. You conclude that this man had a large political influence based
9 on a newspaper article published in 1993. Do I understand you correctly?
10 A. Not only on one article, but he wrote several articles, well in
11 advance of the closing down of an organisation or -- well, in advance
12 before repressive measures were introduced there, he published those
13 articles in Jedinstvo newspaper, a Serbian newspaper.
14 Q. Well, let me ask you the following, then: Did that man have any
15 political influence in 1999?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you base your claim on these newspaper articles published
18 between 1990 and 1993?
19 A. No. He was appointed as director of Djakovica Radio at that time.
20 When he was appointed director, that was called Djakovica Radio at that
22 Q. Very well.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: When is it -- hold on. When do you say he was
24 appointed director of Djakovica Radio?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1990.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And did he still hold that position in 1999?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all the time.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs had that position. There
5 were no Albanians there. And this is one of the repressive bodies.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Very well, Mr. Haxhibeqiri. You go on to say in that same
9 paragraph that witnesses saw that in Meja on the 27th of April he was
10 recording the entire scene with a camera. Will you tell me who was it who
11 saw him in Meja with his camera?
12 A. Yes. I have to go through my files to give you the names of the
13 persons who saw him doing that and who knew him personally.
14 Q. Very well. I hope we will be able to clarify this in the course
15 of the trial. Now, please answer the following question. You say in the
16 morning he wore a mask and in the afternoon he didn't. Could you clarify
18 A. This is always according to the witnesses who saw him wearing a
19 mask, a black mask, in the morning, with slits for the eyes to record the
20 event, but in the afternoon he didn't wear the mask. Yes. This is how it
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this may be a
23 convenient time for a break. I will have five minutes at the most for
24 this witness after the break, depending on his answers, but not more than
25 five minutes, I anticipate.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should carry on and let's try to finish
2 your cross-examination before lunchtime.
3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, tell me the following: If I put the following to
5 you, that your organisation is accusing almost all the Serbs in Djakovica
6 of having committed war crimes in order to prevent and limit their return,
7 would I be right in saying this?
8 A. Can you repeat the question, please? I'm not clear about it.
9 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, would I be correct in asserting that your
10 organisation is accusing almost all the Serbs in Djakovica of having
11 committed war crimes in order to prevent and limit their return to
13 A. The return to Gjakova is restricted by the number, large number,
14 of victims, 1254 victims. Their return is not possible because of the
15 unburied 280 corpses that are found in Serbia. Or somewhere else, you may
16 know better. This is why they cannot return to Serbia. The crimes they
17 have committed. They don't have a clean conscience.
18 Q. Mr. Haxhibeqiri, this refers to all the Serbs? Am I correct? In
19 Djakovica municipality.
20 A. I mean all those who have committed crimes, both Serbs and
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
23 further questions.
24 MR. IVETIC: It says, they are not able to return to Serbia.
25 Could we have that clarified at line 21, line 21, page 61, line 21. "This
1 is why they cannot return to Serbia."
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you explained that it was because
3 of the number of victims, corpses found in Serbia, they don't have a clean
4 conscience. That is why they cannot return to -- and where were you
5 referring to?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the large number of
7 victims, 1254.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is it you say they cannot return to for that
9 reason? It's been recorded that you said they cannot return to Serbia for
10 that reason. Is that what you said?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was asked why they cannot
12 return to Gjakova and I showed why they cannot return to Gjakova because
13 of the crimes they have committed.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That clarifies the position.
15 Now, when we return after lunchtime, I will give you,
16 Mr. O'Sullivan, the opportunity, if you wish, to ask questions about the
17 whereabouts or existence of these documents, if there is to be any
18 discussion about it, that's a separate platter but if you feel that there
19 is a need to explore in evidence the location or identity of documents,
20 then you can do that.
21 Then the Bench will have a number of questions for the witness
22 depending on certain clarification I may seek, first of all, from
23 Mr. Hannis, and we will take matters from there. So we will -- I'm sorry,
24 Mr. Hannis?
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have I think two questions on redirect,
1 if I may.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, indeed. But if we start asking questions,
3 then that may give rise to further cross-examination before you even get
4 to that stage, I'm afraid. It just depends on the extent to which it's
5 appropriate for us to do so.
6 Just one matter before we adjourn, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, there are
7 certain documents you've referred to in your evidence which could be made
8 available. One of them was a document you referred to as having in the
9 hotel which was details of the powers of the Crisis Staff. Do you now
10 have that document with you? We will deal with it this afternoon. As
11 long as you've got it there, we'll deal with it this afternoon.
12 So we will resume at ten minutes past 2.00.
13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.39 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 2.11 p.m.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we don't wish to pursue the matter.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, the document you showed us
20 just before lunchtime, could we now have that document, please?
21 Now, the document has been handed over is a document which is
22 dated the 31st of March 1999. Is this set out in the Serbian language or
23 the Albanian language?
24 A. The Serbian language.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: At first glance, it does -- at first sight, even to
1 me, it does appear to me to be along the lines suggested but obviously it
2 would have to be translated. So what we will do with this document is
3 mark it for identification as a court exhibit and that will be marked for
4 identification subject to translation and any comments that parties wish
5 to make after it's translated.
6 Now, does anyone have any objection to take to that course of
8 MR. HANNIS: None from me, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. The next matter, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, is
10 the list you mentioned today of a number of people -- I hope I'm not
11 misrepresenting the figure, I think it was 37, was it, who were killed at
12 Jablanica, which you were asked about in a different context. Was it 37
13 people you said had been killed there?
14 A. 27 but -- 27 but not in Jablanica but in the Asim Vokshi street,
15 Asim Vokshi street in the city of Gjakova.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: No, sorry, I've given you the wrong figure and
17 that's probably what's misleading. When Mr. Cepic started his
18 cross-examination this morning, he was asking you about events in
19 Jablanica and he was talking about the deaths of 16 civilians. And one
20 answer you gave was that you had a list of 40 Albanians killed in that
21 village, I think 40 Albanians killed in that village.
22 A. Yes. It's the list of all those who were killed.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can I see that document?
24 A. [In English] Yes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, this is a much longer document than one
1 containing the names of 40 victims. This has a total of 586. So what is
2 this document?
3 A. In both lists you will find the names of about 40 from -- 40
4 people from Jablanica who were killed there, and you -- it's
5 alphabetically ordered and where it starts with J you will find the names
6 of the people who were killed at Jablanica.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, it's alphabetical -- both lists are
8 alphabetical according to the name of the person, the victim, not
9 according to the place.
10 A. Not according to the place, yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And I don't see that -- I don't see the name
12 Jablanica on the one I'm looking through at the moment. So what -- just
13 give me a second.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may be under the Albanian name of
16 Shqiponja, which was the name given to Jablanica after the war.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I see that in fact one of the documents has
19 reference to persons from Jablanica. However, the matter is obviously
20 much more complicated than the simple question of a list with 40 names of
21 victims from Jablanica, so what the Trial Chamber will do is return these
22 two documents to the witness. It may be that the Prosecution will see
23 some advantage in investigating this further and if there was something
24 that could be of assistance in the interests of justice presenting that to
25 the Trial Chamber but we do not intend to pursue this particular issue
1 further at this stage. Does anyone have any objection to that course of
2 action? Thank you.
3 So that means there is one document to be given a court exhibit
4 number which presumably will be number 1. Never mind the 00s. It will be
5 IC1. In fact do we need the I? Is it just C1?
6 MR. VISNJIC: [In English] Excuse me, Your Honour.
7 [Interpretation] In connection with this document, which
8 Your Honour just referred to, number 1, C1, may we obtain copies?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. The copies will be distributed immediately
10 they can be made.
11 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I think that leaves just the one matter but
13 just how complex that will be has yet to be determined.
14 Mr. Hannis, it was plain in the witness's evidence-in-chief that
15 he felt he had much more personal knowledge of events or at least
16 knowledge that got close to personal experience of killings in particular,
17 that he had not had an adequate opportunity to recount because of the way
18 in which the statement had been taken. In the full knowledge of that
19 state of affairs, you decided not to explore the matter further. And
20 there may be a number of reasons for that. I fully appreciate it. The
21 Chamber, though, is concerned that if he does have personal knowledge of
22 matters which are relevant to the indictment, that he ought to be given an
23 opportunity to explain what that is. But there is no point in us entering
24 into that area with him if in fact his personal knowledge relates to
25 matters which are not relevant to the charges here. Now, was it for that
1 reason that you did not pursue the matter?
2 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, with regard to killings, I had
3 understood from questions that had been asked and answers given, that
4 while he may have gone out and seen dead bodies at scenes of killings,
5 perhaps within hours of the killings actually having occurred, he had not
6 personally witnessed the actual killing itself and so that's why I didn't
7 explore it any further.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
9 Now, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, you've heard my discussion with Mr. Hannis.
10 We are anxious that you should have an opportunity to relate to the Trial
11 Chamber anything of which you have personal knowledge, that's direct
12 experience, that you think would assist us as long as it is relevant to
13 events between the 20 -- well, I think in broader terms probably relevant
14 to events in 1998 and up until June 1999. But in particular, personal
15 knowledge of the killing of anyone that you consider to be a criminal
17 Now, I don't want to hear from you very general statements about
18 your knowledge. I want to know if there are particular events that are
19 not referred to in your statement which you have direct personal knowledge
20 of, and can now tell us of. And in the course of your evidence you
21 mentioned the killing of four people, which was not referred to in any
22 detail in your statement. You also said that that was not the whole
23 extent of your knowledge. Now, can you explain to me -- Mr. Sepenuk,
24 unless there's a -- something important, I wonder if --
25 MR. SEPENUK: Your Honour, very respectfully, I think there is.
1 Just a minute or so, this gentleman was called at as a Rule 92 bis witness
2 and our expectation was, under Rule 92 bis, that the testimony would be
3 confined to the statement and we think 92 bis on its face only provides
4 for evidence that is within the statement.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we've already discussed this and I can't see
6 for the life of me how you make that interpretation of Rule 92 bis where
7 it says clearly, "the Chamber may admit in whole or in part the evidence
8 of a witness in the form of a written statement."
9 MR. SEPENUK: The reason I say that, Your Honour, is 92 bis A,
10 where it says "a Trial Chamber may admit in whole or in part," as
11 Your Honour says, "the evidence of a witness in the form of written
12 statement in lieu of oral testimony." In lieu of oral testimony.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.
14 MR. SEPENUK: So our understanding is, Your Honour, that the
15 statement -- that it's confined to the statement and any testimony over
16 and above that is not permitted within the terms of 92 bis. And my only
17 other comment Your Honour is that, with all respect to Your Honour's need
18 to get the facts of this case, asking this witness, and I say most
19 respectfully to this witness who has given very discursive, generalised,
20 almost advocacy kinds of statements, to expect that he's going to confine
21 himself pinpointedly and clearly and succinctly to a particular area I
22 think might be too much to expect.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what that amounts to is a challenge to the
24 ability of this Trial Chamber to control the evidence it seeks from a
25 witness, and your concern about that is quite unfounded, and therefore, I
1 reject that suggestion.
2 The first point you make is one that I really don't understand.
3 The rule says the Trial Chamber may admit in whole or in part the evidence
4 of a witness in the form of a written statement in lieu of oral testimony.
5 The bit that's in writing has got to be in lieu of oral testimony. That
6 doesn't mean to say in lieu of everything oral. Doesn't mean that. And
7 in any event, the Trial Chamber has a specific right and I'm looking for
8 the rule to ask any question it wishes. If you look at Rule 85,(B), "It
9 shall be for the party calling a witness to examine such witness in chief
10 but a judge may at any stage put any question to the witness."
11 MR. SEPENUK: I grant that's the general rule, Your Honour, but
12 where Rule 92 bis specifies we think the particular governs over the
13 general. Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: I reject your interpretation of -- of -- as do my
15 colleagues, of your interpretation of Rule 92 bis.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just touch upon
20 one aspect which seems to be very important to me? It has to do with
21 something Your Honour mentioned briefly yesterday. We have a situation
22 here where the witness was not properly prepared. The previous
23 Prosecution team preparing this witness obviously did not do a good job
24 and now we have a situation where this witness is presenting facts to
25 Your Honours which, in the seven years at least that the Prosecution
1 investigation into these events has been ongoing, should have been
3 They were not investigated, however, and we now have a situation
4 where the witness is presenting some very serious facts referring to
5 murders and so on, and we may even get facts from him referring to the
6 acts and conduct of the accused. We now have completely new facts which
7 the Defence is hearing for the first time, after the beginning of the
8 witness's testimony. And there is no way that the Defence can test the
9 credibility of everything that these witnesses are putting forward. There
10 is a whole series of rules referring to disclosure, the main point of
11 which is to enable the Defence to properly deal with all the evidence. We
12 may hear something today or tomorrow from this or another witness and the
13 Defence will not be in a position to challenge this properly because it
14 will not have the proper tools and materials at its disposal. So the
15 right of the accused to fair and just proceedings should not be brought
16 into question. Of course, this falls within the discretionary powers of
17 Your Honours, but we may be now coming close to a line where the right to
18 a fair trial might be compromised. Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, without expressing any further view on the
21 quality of preparation of this witness, it seems to the Trial Chamber that
22 even if, indeed particularly if, there was a failure to obtain from a
23 witness important, relevant evidence in the pre-trial or prior to the
24 pre-trial stage of the case, that this Trial Chamber would be failing in
25 its duty to the interests of justice if it were not to explore what it is
1 that the witness might be able to say.
2 There are many mechanisms available to the Trial Chamber to ensure
3 that the interests of the accused are protected in the light of what
4 develops, particularly in a case that's likely to last for a couple of
5 years, and there is plenty of time to resolve any difficulty that may
6 arise. Whether a trial is fair or not is to be determined at the end of
7 the trial, unless there is some glaring breach that could never be
8 rectified at any later stage. So I hear what's said. My colleagues hear
9 what's said. We reject the suggestion that it's inappropriate for the
10 Trial Chamber to explore this matter any further and we will respect the
11 interests of the accused and the interests of justice whenever we
12 intervene to ask questions in the course of this trial.
13 Now, Mr. Haxhibeqiri --
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: I want to be clear first of all about this. At any
16 stage in 1998 or 1999, did you personally see any person being killed as
17 the result of an act of violence?
18 A. I have seen killed people but not people being killed.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the earliest time, as far as you could
20 judge, after any person had been killed, that you saw the body?
21 A. Within 12 hours.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Was that by chance or because you had been
23 contacted in some way to notify you of the death?
24 A. They were in the streets, some 50 metres away from my home. As I
25 was passing by I saw them there. Seven corpses I've seen. I knew three
1 of them but the other four, no. Later on, I also learned their names.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these seven corpses you saw on the one occasion
3 or are we talking about more than one incident?
4 A. Within the same day, and they were -- one of the corpses stayed
5 there for four days. The others were removed within the same day.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And are these matters not referred to at all in
7 your statement?
8 A. No.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, you made an assertion at one stage that your
10 statement of matters of which you have personal knowledge could fill a
11 hundred pages and you may even at one stage have said more than that.
12 Bearing in mind it's your personal experience that we are interested in,
13 are there any other events that you feel you ought to tell us of that are
14 of a similar, as to which your knowledge is similar to the knowledge you
15 have of the one you've just mentioned?
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just hold on. I'm getting no interpretation.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. "I have seen with my own eyes a convoy
19 on the morning of the 24th of March, in the 27th of March, when these
20 forces came to the Blloku i Ri neighbourhood, when -- and they set the
21 neighbourhood alight. They burned more than 10 houses. They killed eight
22 persons or seven to be more accurate, rather, seven, and they arrested 11
23 other people."
24 JUDGE BONOMY: That is referred to in your statement. That matter
25 we do not need to explore any further. So let's lay that one aside.
1 Now, is there any other event?
2 A. Yes. The case of Cabrat. I've seen fighting take place from the
3 roof of my house, from a distance of 300 metres.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the date of that event?
5 A. 7th of May. Until the 11th of May.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, that is an area that's already been
7 explored in evidence and you have been -- had an opportunity to expand
8 upon that already. Is there any other event?
9 A. You're talking about things which I have personally experienced?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
11 A. During my work at the Human Rights Council, there were cases
12 coming to my office, especially the beginning of 1998 up until one day
13 before the bombing started, we've had cases --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, I think that's a matter that has been
15 adequately explored. The Prosecution have chosen how to present that --
16 their evidence on that subject and therefore, I don't think we need to go
17 into that one any further. That's been a decision made by the Prosecutor.
18 Okay. So leaves the one thing, the one event that requires, I
19 think, further exploration, where you say that you saw, I think it -- was
20 it eight people you said? Yes, when you saw the corpses on the one day.
21 Now, could you tell us more about how you came upon these corpses and what
22 you know about the event that led to their being killed or dead?
23 A. They were civilians. They were taken in the street while fighting
24 was going on in the Cabrati hill between the KLA and the Serb/Montenegrin
25 forces. They entered the houses, and whoever they found there they
1 tortured or killed.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, how do you know that? How have you learned of
4 A. I saw that with my own eyes. I saw them setting fire to houses,
5 during the day and at night, all the time. And on the next day I heard of
6 the victims or maybe one day after. So as time went by I learned the
7 number of the dead people.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And what was that number?
9 A. You mean the overall number? 100 -- roughly 106.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: For the avoidance of doubt, give us again the date
11 of that event or these events.
12 A. From the 7th to the 11th of May.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: And now confine your subsequent answers to the
14 seven corpses. Tell us how you saw these, where you saw them, and what
15 you know of how the seven corpses came to be corpses.
16 A. One of them is called Ali Beqe Rama. I saw his body 50 metres
17 away from my house. It was lying in the middle of the street. Two
18 brothers, Humaj, they were called, I saw them in a store which is about 50
19 metres away from my home. They had put the bodies inside the store. They
20 were full of blood. I could hardly recognise them. One of them had the
21 identity paper on him and it was through that that I identified him. When
22 I left the store they told me that the two brothers were killed.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Who do you mean "they" told you that the two
24 brothers were killed?
25 A. People who were there, people from that neighbourhood. They had
1 learned of that killing.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. And the others? You said there were four
4 A. In another lane close by to my aunt's house, when I was going to
5 visit my aunt, I saw the bodies in the street. My aunt has -- had emptied
6 the house and I saw the bodies from a distance of about 30 metres. And
7 later, I found out about their names.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And how many bodies are you talking about?
9 A. Seven.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: No, in the lane close to your aunt's house how many
12 A. Four.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 A. Four.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: And what were the names?
16 A. One is called Florenc Sulejmani. The others I don't know but I
17 have records of them as victims, killed on that date.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: And do you know anything of how any of these four
19 were killed?
20 A. They were killed -- they were shot dead.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And I should have asked you that in relation to the
22 two brothers and to Ali Beqe Rama. How were they killed?
23 A. In the same way, with bullets. I saw both the brothers, I could
24 identify both of them myself.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Excuse me if I asked you a little personal
3 question. The question is: Is this your name or -- you add Haxhi to it
4 which means having performed a pilgrimage? Have you been -- have you been
5 for hajj? That's what I was thinking. Thank you.
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, if Defence counsel wish to discuss their
8 position, we are happy to adjourn for that purpose. If you consider it
9 appropriate to cross-examine the witness on any matter raised in this,
10 then you should do so, and then -- Mr. O'Sullivan?
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Perhaps a ten-minute adjournment?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. We'll adjourn and we'll resume at five past
14 --- Break taken at 2.53 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 3.09 p.m.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, can you indicate the position or is
17 someone else going to do it? Mr. Lukic?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, usually I'm not in charge of
19 administrative mat ores but since I was cross-examining Mr. Haxhibeqiri
20 first my colleagues empowered me to speak in the name of everybody. And
21 as I understood my colleagues, our position is that we would like to
22 reserve our right to call this witness again if -- because we have to
23 conduct the investigation on these matters. And if we find something that
24 is different than this witness is claiming in this additional questioning
25 or part of his statement, we would kindly ask this Chamber to allow us to
1 call this witness again.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it would be entirely appropriate for you to
3 make an application in suitable circumstances, so I acknowledge that
4 that -- this may be one. But it depends obviously on what develops
5 between now and then. For the moment you're content to leave the matter
6 as it is?
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Hannis, to re-examine?
10 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, I just had one topic I wanted to
11 touch on and perhaps to reduce the possibility of the witness having to
12 come back.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
14 Q. It pertains to the Crisis Staff document, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, that
15 you brought in and gave to the Judges this afternoon. Can you tell us how
16 you came to be in possession of that document? When did you get it, who
17 did you get it from?
18 A. I found this document in the offices of a communal assembly. The
19 people who entered the offices after the war collected them and brought
20 this document to my office for me to have it in my archives.
21 Q. When did that happen?
22 A. In 2000.
23 Q. Do you know when in 2000?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And --
1 A. Don't remember.
2 Q. And I'm a little unclear. Was it you personally who found that
3 document at the communal assembly or someone else?
4 A. It was not I personally who found it but others brought it to me,
5 the staff of the commune assembly.
6 Q. Do you recall anybody by name from that group who brought it to
8 A. The Kosovo protection corps, who at that time were called KLA,
9 they have this document as well --
10 Q. And --
11 A. -- because they were the ones who had access to documents both in
12 the MUP and in other places after the war.
13 Q. And that copy that you brought to court, had you kept that in your
14 offices from the time you received it in 2000 until you brought it here
15 this week?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any other question.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
20 Any other questions?
21 Well, Mr. Haxhibeqiri, that completes your evidence. Thank you
22 for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to leave.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Hannis, who is to be next witness?
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's Lizane M-a-l-a-y -- M-a-l-a-j. I
2 believe -- she's outside, I hope.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: In fact, perhaps she should just be kept for a
4 moment. There is an issue over the admissibility of the statement of the
5 last witness which I ought not to be overlooked at this stage. Now,
6 remind me, who was it who initially took exception? Mr. Ivetic, was it
8 MR. HANNIS: Mr. O'Sullivan, I believe.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It was Mr. O'Sullivan. I take it you maintain the
10 position, do you?
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we do, Your Honour. We object to the
12 admission of certain portions of --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Pages 6 to 9?
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct, yes.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be dealt with along with the other
16 outstanding decisions and hopefully in the course of next week.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The only additional thing I would wish to draw
18 your attention to is 92 bis(A)(ii)(b) which we say applies to the -- our
19 standing objection to this and other similar statements and notably the
20 Abrahams 92 bis statement. We say that the circumstances surrounding the
21 statement make it unreliable and unsafe for admission and that the
22 prejudicial value of it outweighs any probative value it may have.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Let's have the witness now, Mr. Hannis.
24 Mr. Sepenuk?
25 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, Your Honour, we join in the motion made by
1 Mr. O'Sullivan. And just to make it clear, the latter part of the
2 statement referring to the thousand interviews and the interviews
3 resulting from that we claim that the law is -- is similar. We invoke the
4 law respecting as seen, as told and under orders to preclude the admission
5 of that part of the statement, and we also again, Your Honour, claim, and
6 I know Your Honour has rejected that, but that any oral evidence over and
7 above what was in the statement, we claim, should not be considered by the
8 Trial Chamber.
9 One final thing, Your Honour, and that concerns one of the
10 exhibits. It's a booklet called Serb genocide upon Albanian culture at
11 Gjakova. Your Honours will recall those are the pictures of certain
12 mosque and other monuments, since there was some personal knowledge of
13 those pictures we don't have any objections to that. We would ask you
14 though to ignore -- to delete the booklet term Serb genocide. This is not
15 a genocide case. Nobody in this case has been charged with genocide.
16 Genocide has a specific meaning, as Your Honours well know, usually
17 killings with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national ethnic,
18 racial or religious group. We don't have that in this case. It's not
19 charged and I think it's inappropriate to have that in the record.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll --
22 MR. HANNIS: If I may, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila?
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Just a question, please, I'm so sorry,
25 Mr. Hannis, I'm sorry. If we join in the views expressed by the Defence,
1 do we have to get up one by one or is it sufficient for us to nod? I
2 mean, we all subscribe to this but do we have to get up and say so? It's
3 just a technical question.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't. The position was made clear at the
5 outset in relation to this particular objection and your position is
6 already noted and I regard every counsel as having taken the same position
7 in this case. As far as the points made, if I don't deal with something,
8 Mr. Hannis, you can comment but Mr. Sepenuk's point about the title of the
9 book is a matter for argument, if he feels it appropriate in due course.
10 The fact is that the book has that title and that's just a matter that we
11 have to live with when we come to deal with the case. The other
12 submissions made will be taken into account when we deliberate on this and
13 determine the matter.
14 Now, is there something else you wish to add, Mr. Hannis?
15 MR. HANNIS: In connection with that book and the photos, that was
16 not an exhibit that was we tendered during his examination that was shown
17 to him by Defence counsel.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: It is referred to in his statement.
19 MR. HANNIS: It is referred to in his statement, Your Honour. But
20 I have no objection. To me, its value was in showing. To me its value
21 was showing some pictures of the destruction he talked about. There was
22 some text in there that I did not feel was useful to your determination
23 of the truth in this matter. So if the court or Defence counsel want to
24 submit it on something less than its entirety, I don't have a problem with
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But as it stands, the statement says "I
2 produce a copy of this with my statement." So it's part of P330.
3 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour, and I guess I'm going back
4 to the 92 bis rule that says you can admit the statement in whole or in
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
7 MR. HANNIS: Or written evidence in whole or in part.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: But the title is of absolutely no significance to
9 us in determining this. That should be obvious to everyone, without
10 saying so but the fact of the matter is that that is the title and it
11 can't be stricken from the record.
12 JUDGE CHOWHAN: What is the name?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. So shall we have the witness now, Lizane
15 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour excuse me. May I just
16 clarify a particular situation related to this particular exhibit? This
17 was disclosed to us within the 92 bis package. That package contained the
18 statement and on the list that we received from the OTP, this particular
19 piece of evidence was included.
20 Now I don't quite understand and I should like to know for the
21 future, when the Prosecution submits to us an abbreviated document such as
22 this summary is, 65 ter, and when they submit a 92 bis package to us, what
23 happens to this which is mentioned in addition to the package? Does it --
24 is it included in the package? Do they have to be mentioned specifically,
25 as the Prosecutor did just now. Regardless of how long the 92 bis package
1 takes, will this be included nevertheless in due course? We were not sure
2 whether this document was within the 92 bis package or not. If it was
3 not, then we have a completely different situation how we are going to
4 deal with these documents. We are going to wait for the reaction of the
5 Prosecutor. If it is in the package, then we don't have to wait for any
6 particular point in time, we can react during our cross-examination. I
7 would like to have this resolved so that we would have a clear picture for
8 the future so the OTP could tell us what they intend to introduce as a
9 package so we can handle everything on the list during our
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Visnjic, this document is referred to as
12 part of the witness's statement. The witness has adopted his statement
13 as the truth. So therefore it is part of his evidence. Mr. Sepenuk has
14 made it clear that the only point that you really felt you could take at
15 this stage was related to the title and that because he had personal
16 knowledge of events, then the document was relevant to the extent that he
17 was able to look at the photographs and tell us something about them.
18 Now, that's how we'll treat it as part of his statement in so far as it's
19 relevant to the indictment. And that will be the case with every exhibit
20 that becomes before us and is not objected to. So you have to assume
21 that that's part of his statement. Now if you want to discuss with
22 Mr. Hannis the extent to which he is likely to find upon, then he's openly
23 invited you to do so and that can therefore be done informally without
24 being done in the courtroom.
25 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I cast my eyes around the courtroom.
2 MR. HANNIS: May I ask when we are going to take the break, in
3 light of the fact.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we will get started. How long is your
5 examination likely to be?
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, half an hour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's see if we can do that and then break because
8 we have already had this little break. And I don't think that would be
9 stretching anyone too much.
10 MR. HANNIS: That's fine.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Lizane Malaj would you now make the solemn
13 declaration which is being shown to you? Just read the document, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: Lizane Malaj
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. Would you please be seated?
19 Ms. Malaj you're going to be asked questions here in a format with which
20 you may not be familiar. Mr. Hannis will start and ask you a number of
21 questions and then after that, counsel for the various accused will have
22 an opportunity to cross-examine you, which may involve challenges to your
23 evidence. It's a system with which you may not be familiar but it's the
24 system which is applied in this Court. It's a recognised, widely
25 recognised, system. Your job quite simply is to listen carefully to the
1 questions which are put to you and to answer them. If we think that an
2 inappropriate question is asked, then we will intervene, but in the
3 absence of intervention, it's your job simply to listen carefully to the
4 question and answer each question that is put to you. So that exercise
5 will start now with Mr. Hannis asking questions.
6 Mr. Hannis?
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
9 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. I want to ask you about 1999. First of
10 all, could you tell the Court your name and spell your last name, please?
11 A. My name is Lizane Malaj. My last name is M-a-l-a-j. With capital
13 Q. Thank you. And ma'am, I understand you're a Kosovo Albanian, that
14 in 1999 you were married, you had five children and you were living in
15 Korenica in Gjakova municipality; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, at this time I'd like to bring up
18 Exhibit P2232 and hand the witness a hard copy of her statements.
19 Q. Mrs. Malaj, if you could have a look at those documents and tell
20 us if you recall having given statements to the investigators of the OTP
21 in 2000 and 2001?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to come -- to speak
24 to the microphone, please?
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. I don't know if you heard that, Ms. Malaj, but the translators are
2 asking if you could sit a little closer to the microphones so that they
3 could hear you. Thank you.
4 Did you have a chance to look at those statements before coming in
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you satisfied they are correct and accurate regarding your
8 evidence about what happened in 1999?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would tender that package at this
12 Q. Ms. Malaj, can you tell us first of all how big was Korenica? How
13 many houses in that village?
14 A. Korenica is neither big nor small, I would say. It has about 70
15 houses. I can't give you an accurate figure. Roughly 70.
16 Q. And what were -- what was the ethnicity of the people living in
17 that village? Was it mixed or all one ethnicity?
18 A. We are all Albanian. We are Catholics and some Muslims.
19 Q. In your statements you describe what the general situation was and
20 you talk about an event that happened on Easter Monday, I think you said,
21 the 4th of April 1999. Could you tell the Judges briefly about what
22 happened to you and your family on that day?
23 A. On the 4th of April, it was afternoon, we heard that we should
24 leave the houses. All of us left and we got together and we were told to
25 get with us only the tractors but not the cars. There is a person called
1 Aca, that's his nickname. He told us to go back to our homes. It was
2 Milutin Prasevic who told us to leave the houses, and, as I told you, then
3 we went back home.
4 Q. Let me stop you there and back up for a minute. You said that you
5 were told to leave your house. How did that happen on that day? Who told
6 you? How were you told?
7 A. Milutin Prasevic told us, along with seven other policemen or
8 officers, I don't know who they were.
9 Q. And you mentioned that he was a police officer, Milutin Prasevic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was the ethnicity of Milutin Prasevic?
12 A. He was a Serb. What can I say?
13 Q. And in your statement you indicate that they were policemen in
14 blue police uniforms and carrying machine-guns; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you were told to leave your house, where were you told to go?
17 A. To go straight to Albania.
18 Q. How much time were you given to gather your things together and
20 A. Three hours.
21 Q. Where did you go from your house? In what direction?
22 A. We went towards Gjakova but in Sufadol Aca told us to return to
23 our homes, Aca Micunovic. That's how we knew him.
24 Q. Who was he? What was his ethnicity?
25 A. He too was a Serb but it was only he and his family that lived in
1 our village as Serbs.
2 Q. And was Aca a member of any organ or was he just a civilian?
3 A. He was a policeman.
4 Q. And how far from your home was it when you were told to turn
5 around and go back?
6 A. One kilometre away.
7 Q. Was it just your family that was told to leave on that day?
8 A. No. The entire village was told to flee. They were given only
9 three hours to get ready.
10 Q. By this time in early April were you aware that the NATO bombing
11 had already started in Kosovo?
12 A. Yes, we knew.
13 Q. Was there any bombing in your village?
14 A. No.
15 Q. After you returned home, then, on that day, I think in your
16 statement you say the next significant event was on the 27th of April. Do
17 you recall what happened on that day?
18 A. Yes. Yes. I remember. It was a terrible day.
19 Q. And you've described that in some detail in your statement but
20 could you briefly tell the Judges what happened that day?
21 A. That morning of that day, I don't know how to describe it, during
22 the time I was staying with my own family at home, my son, Ledimoz
23 [phoen], was in the toilet outside in the courtyard. It was 7.30 in the
24 morning when this happened. We could hear shots being fired and the house
25 was encircled by some 30 people. All -- they encircled our house.
1 Q. Can you describe --
2 A. They were in our yard. They stopped my son, Blerim. They didn't
3 let him enter the house and come near to me or to his father. They told
4 him to lie down on the ground. Then it was my husband's turn and my
5 nephew, Arben, who had a young daughter of 11 months. In the same yard of
6 my home, there was my brother, Nikoll. A policeman or paramilitary, I
7 don't know how to describe him, he entered the house after banging the
8 door open, and asked them to show the IDs and leave the house. They left
9 the house. My brother Nikoll and the nephew Engjelli, they asked both of
10 them to lie down on the ground and they took away their IDs and told them
11 to leave for Albania insulting and cursing them all the time.
12 Q. These men you say surrounded the house and were in your courtyard,
13 can you describe them? What they were wearing?
14 A. They were dressed in military uniforms, police uniforms, and
15 paramilitary, three different uniforms. They wore masks and wore ribbons
16 on their arms.
17 Q. You mentioned that your son was forced to lie down on the ground
18 and then the husband, your husband and nephew were taken out. What about
19 the rest of your family, your other children and yourself?
20 A. I and my daughter Blerina, the son Bekim, and my daughter Blerta
21 and her son Engjelli, we were ordered to leave for Albania but I didn't
22 want to leave without taking along with me my son. But they didn't allow
23 me to take my son with me.
24 Q. Were your other four children with you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where -- what did you do then? Where did you go?
2 A. After we left the house and walked about 50 metres, I heard the
3 voice of my son Blerim crying, and I saw the house in flames. I tried to
4 go back, but the policeman told me not to go back, better continue on your
5 way, because you will get killed. But the kids pulled me by my skirt and
6 told me, "Don't go, don't go. Don't leave us alone."
7 Q. Were these men in military uniforms and these policemen armed?
8 A. They were heavily armed. On the way we saw 20, 30 more such
9 people. They fired at us but fortunately none of the bullets hit us.
10 Q. Was it just your family that was being forced to leave?
11 A. They did that with all the village. The entire village
12 experienced what I experienced.
13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: This is a repetition. It's already come.
14 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I thought that was a
15 reference to the earlier event but I will move on.
16 Could the witness be shown Exhibit P35?
17 Q. Mrs. Malaj, can you see what's on the screen in front of you? Is
18 it big enough for you?
19 A. You mean the map?
20 Q. Yes.
21 MR. HANNIS: Could we scroll down a bit? A little farther, please.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Do you recognise what's on the map? Would it be easier for you to
24 have a hard copy?
25 A. Yes. Maybe that would be better.
1 MR. HANNIS: Could I ask the usher to hand the witness a hard
3 Q. Do you recognise what area that's a map of?
4 A. This is a map of Gjakova.
5 Q. And do you see your village, Korenica, on the map?
6 A. I don't seem to find it.
7 Q. I understand it may be difficult for you to see on that document.
8 If you can't locate it, let me just ask you another question.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's gone off the screen now. Go back to where it
10 was. It's fine. Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS:
12 Q. Does it need to be bigger? Is that the problem?
13 A. Is it possible to make it bigger?
14 Q. I think we can. Is that any better?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you see your village now?
17 A. Yes, this is where it is, Korenica.
18 Q. We can see that written on the map. Can you tell us when you and
19 the other villagers of Korenica were forced out that day, where did you
20 go? You don't have to point on the map, if you can just give us the names
21 and the direction you went.
22 A. Which date are you asking me about? That very date we are
23 talking, on the --
24 Q. The 27th of April?
25 A. 27th.
1 Q. 1999.
2 A. Yes. On that day, we left the village, as I said, we went to some
3 smaller village, Oriz, Sufadol, Brekoz, Ura e Tobakeve, and then we
4 entered the city. In the vicinity of the hospital, we stayed for about
5 four hours.
6 Q. And which city are you referring to?
7 A. Gjakova.
8 Q. What happened where you stayed for four hours? Were you able to
9 eat or drink?
10 A. No. No. We didn't dare take anything from our homes or ask for
11 anything while we were staying there but we informed a priest of what was
12 happening and he tried to take us to Osekorac [phoen] - Osekpashe we
13 called it - but the police threatened us to kill if we went there and
14 didn't allow us to go. After four hours we left for Gjakova-Prizren road.
15 Q. Where did you go from there?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Hannis, bear in mind that we have all the
17 detail here and now that we've heard something from the witness and have
18 an ability to appreciate the witness's presentation, and demeanour, you
19 may feel that we can cut to the chase or unless there is something in
20 particular that you feel has to be explored or supplemented in some way.
21 MR. HANNIS: No. That's all I'm trying to do, Your Honour, is get
22 the witness a little accustomed here. I can finish with about three more
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Very well.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. Mrs. Malaj, from Gjakova, did you eventually walk to Prizren and
2 then on to Albania?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I understand from your statement you had to walk the whole way and
5 you didn't have food or water and it took you until I think sometime in
6 the afternoon of the next day to get there, correct? And in your
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on. It's necessary to answer the question
10 rather than simply nod your head. Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. And did you ever see your husband, your son, and your nephew alive
13 again after that day?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I think at the time that you gave your written statements, you did
16 not yet then know for sure what had happened to them. But since then,
17 have you discovered what became of your husband, son, and nephew?
18 A. Initially, we thought they were missing, hoping they will be
19 alive, but then we realise that they were dead and then we were -- we
20 received their bodies.
21 Q. Can you tell us when you found out they were dead and how you
22 found that out?
23 A. On the 17th of April of 2004, I learned about my husband.
24 Q. What about your son and your nephew?
25 A. I learned of my son's death on the 27th of April 2005.
1 Q. And your nephew?
2 A. I learned of my nephew's death, Arben, on the 17th of December
4 Q. What were you told about where their bodies were found?
5 A. In the cemetery of Batajnica.
6 MR. HANNIS: For Your Honours' reference these names are on
7 schedule H of the indictment.
8 I have no other questions of this witness at this time.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just clarify one thing? Mention is made in
10 the statement of your brother, Nikoll. Do you know his fate?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His body was brought on the same day
12 as my son, on the 27th of April 2005.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Now, we'll have a break at this stage. We need to interrupt every
15 so often to give everyone involved in the Court a rest. And we will
16 resume -- I think in this instance we will try to resume at 20 minutes
17 past 4.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?
21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we'll follow the order of the
22 indictment and I have no questions.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 Mr. Fila?
25 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk?
3 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Aleksic?
5 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I do have questions.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Malaj. I'm Aleksandar Aleksic, attorney, and
8 together with me in the Defence team of General Nebojsa Pavkovic are
9 Aleksandar Vujic. And on behalf of General Pavkovic's Defence, I'm going
10 to put some questions to you. I will be attempting to be as precise as
11 possible when I'm doing this and I would like to ask you to give me the
12 briefest possible answers. If possible, a yes or a no.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness -- I think the
15 witness actually has her statement in Albanian in front of her. I think
16 she has a hard copy.
17 Q. Mrs. Malaj in your statement that you gave on the 31st of August
18 2000 and we are talking about the first page in the Albanian version,
19 paragraph 3, you said that five tanks of the army of Yugoslavia were
20 always placed on the main Gjakova-Ilok road; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And this was in May 1998.
23 I'm sorry, in the transcript, it says "Gjakova-Ilok." It should
24 say Djakovica-Junik.
25 Then we will continue. On page 2 of your version, paragraph 1,
1 you said, the last sentence, after NATO began the air strikes against
2 Serbia the situation became even worse. Is this true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And now we will take your second statement. In e-court this is on
5 page 12 of the Albanian version. This is your statement from 2001 and we
6 will look at page 1, please.
7 Have you found it?
8 A. [No interpretation].
9 Q. You said there, three weeks before the 4th of April 1999, the
10 village was surrounded by exclusively police forces.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The same paragraph you go on to say that you saw five large tanks
13 with camouflage?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that you thought that there were two policemen in each tank;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can we now go back to your first statement, please? On page 2 in
19 the Albanian version, paragraph before the last, and that paragraph
20 relates to the event on the 27th of April 1999. You said that three
21 groups arrived in your village, that they were paramilitary units, members
22 of the MUP, and members of the army of Yugoslavia. First I would like to
23 ask you --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Sorry. First I would like you to describe what you called Serbian
1 paramilitary forces, what they were wearing. Which uniforms were they
3 A. Some of them were wearing brown and green -- to green uniforms.
4 Policemen were wearing blue uniforms and some of them light blue and they
5 were wearing ribbons.
6 Q. Mrs. Malaj, I am just trying to be quite precise. I asked you to
7 describe the Serbian paramilitary forces. You said that the paramilitary
8 forces were wearing a specific kind of uniform. Were they wearing any
9 insignia on the uniform?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us what kind of an insignia they had?
12 A. You're talking about uniforms or about what?
13 Q. I asked you if the Serbian paramilitary forces wore certain
14 markings, insignia, on the uniforms. You said that they did, so I'm
15 asking you what kind of an insignia was it?
16 A. I don't know how to describe this. The colour was like a blue to
17 brown. I don't know how to describe it.
18 Q. Mrs. Malaj, I do apologise for having to put my question again. I
19 didn't ask you about the colour. You've already answered that. I asked
20 you about insignia. You said they had certain insignia and I asked
21 whether you can recall what kind of insignia. Can you tell me what kind
22 of insignia these paramilitary units, as you called them, had?
23 A. I'm not understanding you about these signs or emblems. I
24 could -- could I describe their uniforms? I don't understand this.
25 Q. I'll try not to put a leading question, but did they have any
1 insignia either on their shoulders or on their sleeves indicating where
2 they belonged?
3 A. On the arm they had some insignia, those of the army, but others
4 had some ribbons tied around their arms.
5 Q. I do apologise. We'll come to the army later on. If you cannot
6 recall, I'll move on. As for these paramilitary units, what sort of
7 equipment did they have, if any? What kind of weapons, if you can
9 A. All their body was covered in weapons. Well, what I could -- what
10 caught my eye. They used the weapons, aiming at my husband. That was in
11 the courtyard. Yes, in the courtyard of my house, rather.
12 Q. Mrs. Malaj, I truly apologise and I know it's probably difficult
13 for you to answer these questions, but please try. As for these
14 paramilitary forces, did you observe anything unusual about them? Were
15 they wearing beards, for example?
16 A. There were people wearing beards, masks, all kinds, ribbons on arm
17 bands, and all sorts.
18 Q. And is that what these paramilitary forces looked like?
19 A. That's the paramilitaries, they were called?
20 Q. Just one more question in connection with these paramilitaries.
21 Can you explain what the word "paramilitary" means to you, because when
22 you say "paramilitary soldier," that's a bit vague.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's see if we can be a bit clearer about this.
1 You in your earlier evidence described three different uniforms and you
2 mentioned police, army and paramilitary. Now, the expression
3 "paramilitary" also appears in your statement, and what counsel was asking
4 is what's your understanding of this word "paramilitary" which seems to be
5 something different from the police and the army?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We -- yeah, we recognised them as
8 JUDGE BONOMY: That's simply repeating what you said already.
9 What we are trying to understand is what is the difference between them
10 and police or army?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitaries were wearing arm
12 bands. Well, what caught my eye was those wearing them on the arm but
13 some of them wore bandanas.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: And why did you not simply think that they were
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say. That day,
17 they were not like regular soldiers.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I wonder -- I know -- again, I acknowledge as
19 counsel has that it can be difficult to put the exact difference into
20 words, some might say, "Well, I could tell but I'm finding difficulty
21 explaining," but it would help us if you were able to say in words what it
22 was about them that made them different from -- made them appear to you
23 different from regular soldiers.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say. Before
25 that day, you could see what was regular, and the situation was normal,
1 but on that particular day, everything was out of order.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: When you say that some were wearing masks, do you
3 extend that description to people who were -- who appeared to you to be
4 police officers or soldiers or do you confine that to paramilitaries?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All three were wearing masks. Four
6 people in my courtyard were wearing masks.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mr. Aleksic.
9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I'll have to continue putting similar questions, Mrs. Malaj.
11 Could you please describe the appearance of the police forces? What can
12 you recall about their uniforms, insignia, any special characteristics,
13 the colour of their uniforms?
14 A. Recalling that, the terrible events of that day, I only noted that
15 they were wearing different uniforms. But I did not focus my attention on
16 this detail.
17 Q. I do apologise but can you repeat? You said they wore different
18 uniforms. Can you --
19 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I would respectfully intervene to suggest that you
20 can come around this question later on once she catches up, because one
21 can imagine the difficulties of understanding the difference between
22 uniforms unless one is a specialist. But you can always think of coming
23 back, sir, to this question later on. Let's proceed. I'm sorry for
25 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,
1 the witness has just said, and I do accept that this is a terrible event,
2 but she did say that she told them apart by their uniforms. So I wish to
3 complete this set of questions, what kind of uniforms the regular army
4 wore and what kind of uniforms the regular police force wore. And I will
5 not have any further questions about this.
6 Q. Could you please describe this, Madam?
7 A. Soldiers, as I said earlier, were wearing brown to green uniforms,
8 whereas the policemen were wearing blue uniforms, whereas the others were
9 wearing arm bands. I don't know -- I don't know how to describe it
10 further. I didn't focus on further details.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you please now look at your later statement,
12 from 2001, page 4 in Albanian, the second paragraph from the top. You
13 said that there were police and military on the Tabakut bridge and that
14 they asked for your documents; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you also said, "I did not have mine and nobody had their
17 documents with them, as far as I know," is this correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did they stay and the other people forget them at home, the
20 documents I mean?
21 A. No. Nobody forgot them but the houses were burned and they didn't
22 have a chance to go and get them or anything.
23 Q. Could you please look at the same paragraph we have just been
24 discussing? The last sentence reads, you say, you wanted to go to Osek
25 Pasa, that you called the local priest to help you; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, we asked him.
2 Q. And after this, you say, "But they said no."
3 A. That's correct. They did not allow us.
4 Q. Who said no? Did you hear that?
5 A. The police.
6 Q. You then went on to say, "We were only allowed to go to Albania or
7 if we did not go there, we would be executed." Is this correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Did someone personally say this to you? Did you hear this?
10 A. Police told us that. I heard it with my own ears.
11 Q. Can you describe the person who told you this?
12 A. No. I couldn't look at him. I only heard what was said.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: There is no interpretation coming through.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the question?
15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation].
16 Q. I have to repeat the question. I apologise. It's page 5 of the,
17 Albanian version of your second statement. It's the passage before the
18 last, in Albanian, which reads as follows, "On the road from Prizren to
19 the border they did not rob or hurt anyone." Is this correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. "Nor was anyone separated off from the convoy." Is this correct?
22 A. Up until Bishtazhin nobody did that, but there some 15 people were
23 separated from the convoy.
24 Q. Can you tell me something else now? Were there any young women in
25 the convoy?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. I'll move on now to another topic.
3 Did you ever see or hear a NATO plane?
4 A. I've heard the noise, but haven't seen one.
5 Q. Have you ever seen a NATO bombing or heard something about it?
6 A. Are you talking about a particular case, the bombing of a civilian
7 or something?
8 Q. No. My question was general. Did you hear that NATO was bombing
9 something, ever?
10 A. Yes. There were bombings. We heard about them.
11 Q. And finally, at the end of this statement, please turn one more
12 page. This is the last page, page 6 in the Albanian version. You say in
13 the last sentence, "I left Kosovo because we were expelled from there and
14 not because of the NATO bombing."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did someone -- well, why did you say that at the end of your
17 statement? Can you explain that?
18 A. I say that because we were forced to leave. If it were for NATO
19 we would have never left.
20 Q. Did anyone suggest to you that you should say that the NATO
21 bombings were not the reason for your leaving?
22 A. No one told me that, but it was your forces who forced us to leave
23 and who separated us from our children and NATO did nothing of the sort.
24 Q. Can you tell me who forced the Serbs to leave Kosovo?
25 A. That I don't know.
1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
2 Your Honours. Thank you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic.
4 Mr. Bakrac?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
7 Q. Mrs. Malaj, I'm counsel Bakrac, one of the Defence counsel for
8 General Lazarevic.
9 Your village is in the vicinity of the state border; is that
10 correct, towards Albania?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many kilometres it's away from
13 the border?
14 A. In kilometres, I don't know. But time-wise, it's about two and a
15 half hours by car but in kilometres, I don't know that.
16 Q. Yes. Probably if you go by roads, but practically it's over the
17 mountain, the border, I mean. Would you agree with me?
18 A. We know that the border is close, but we have never been to that
19 area and we've never seen that. We go to Albania via Prizren.
20 Q. Yes, Madam. It was not my intention to ask you about the trip,
21 but as this was a border area, you would have seen the regular army troops
22 in the vicinity of your village quite often, would you not?
23 A. Yes, Yugoslav soldiers, yes.
24 Q. Madam, on page 99 of the record, line 12, you said that before
25 that day, you were able to see regular soldiers and the situation was
1 normal, but on that day, everything was out of control. Would you agree
2 with me that this means that on that day, you did not see the regular
3 soldiers whom you often saw near the border?
4 A. I said that earlier. Up until the 4th of April, everything was
5 normal, but after that day, everything was tense, was terrible.
6 Q. Yes, Madam. I understand that. But I also understood you to say
7 when you were describing the paramilitary uniforms, that on the 27th of
8 April, you did not see regular soldiers. Is this correct?
9 A. On that day, there were regular soldiers, policemen and
10 paramilitary, and we called paramilitary those who were wearing arm bands
11 or bandanas. Of course there were regular soldiers.
12 Q. But they were not in your courtyard on that morning; is that
14 A. Talking about the 27th?
15 Q. Yes, the 27th.
16 A. They were there in my courtyard, all three kinds. There was also
17 an armoured car, an armoured vehicle, in front of my house.
18 Q. Mrs. Malaj, at 7.30 on the 27th of April, was it daylight or was
19 it dark?
20 A. When it dawned, it was quite clear, but when 7.00 came, you could
21 see nothing. After all that happened, I don't know how to describe that
22 day. It was all dark because of what happened.
23 Q. Mrs. Malaj, I understand you, but here we have to establish the
24 facts and we have to go through this. If I understood you correctly, at
25 7.00 a.m. It was still dark?
1 A. At 7.00 it was daylight but this cloud was created because of the
2 presence of the forces and all what happened made it look dark.
3 Q. As it was dark, how were you able to differentiate among all three
4 kinds of persons belonging to different kinds of units at that point in
6 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm sorry, this is misleading. "As it was dark,
7 how were you able to differentiate?" She never said that. She is talking
8 about darkness as a symbol, as something like melancholy, and not that it
9 was a darkness because of the atmosphere, no, that's not what she said.
10 This is my request.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, it was my
12 understanding that in cross-examination, I do have the right to put such
13 questions. Maybe I misunderstood this but my question was, in view of the
14 situation, which was very stressful for this witness --
15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I apologise, we are sitting here to see that
16 things are rightly recorded. As it was dark, if you kindly look at the
17 question, answer to the question, previous to this at number 11, number
18 12, at 7.00 it was daylight but this cloud was created because of the
19 presence of the forces. So it is something else. It is more in the
20 philosophical sense. And when you say here, I mean you're putting up
21 something, that's what we want -- I had to interrupt.
22 I'm sorry I shouldn't have interrupted but this happened. You may
23 kindly continue, sir.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, you should continue to conduct this the
1 way you feel appropriate. If you think that this hasn't been clarified,
2 then please ask again what you wish to ask.
3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I tried
5 and it was wrongly translated, what His Honour the Judge said, to repeat a
6 philosophical thought. But of course I meant that in that state, in that
7 situation, how the witness would have been able to differentiate and see
8 at 7.00 in the morning between the uniforms about which we heard just a
9 little bit earlier, that it was different to tell them apart because of
10 the various small details.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I've already told you to go ahead with your
12 questions. It doesn't help then to make a speech. Thank you.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
14 Q. Mrs. Malaj, in view of this situation and such circumstances,
15 could you please tell us how you managed to tell these three categories of
16 participants in the event apart?
17 A. We could distinguish them because they were very close to us, one
18 metre away from us.
19 Q. And shortly after that you left the courtyard. How long did that
21 A. Within 15 minutes, just to make it clear to you, I was cooking
22 bread. They didn't give me time to wash my hands. My hands were still
23 dirty, just to indicate to you that they didn't give us enough time. So
24 it was very easy for me to distinguish the colours.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mrs. Malaj. In your first statement, this
1 is Exhibit P22232 on page 2 of the B/C/S version, and page --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I hope it's not 22232. I don't think --
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 2232. I'm sorry if it was my mistake
4 but I hope that we will not reach that number.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: There are enough as it is, Mr. Bakrac, yes.
6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I crave your indulgence, counsel.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Before you proceed, Mr. Bakrac, could I get
9 clarification [Microphone not activated] I repeat. Mr. Bakrac, your
10 indulgence. At page 107 of the record, line 7, onwards to 10, is it a
11 fact that the witness said, just to indicate to you that they didn't give
12 us enough time, so it was very easy for me to distinguish the colours? Or
13 is that an error?
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Are these your words, that you were -- you weren't given enough
16 time so it was very easy for you to distinguish the colours?
17 A. Yes. Yes. This is what I said.
18 Q. Mrs. Malaj, Mrs. Malaj --
19 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mrs. Malaj, in view of all that you have said so far, is it true
22 that besides how you felt and besides the speed with which you had to
23 leave, on page 3 of your statement of the 31st of August and the 1st of
24 September, and this is page 3 of the English version and page 7 of the
25 e-court, of the Albanian version, you said that you saw 35 soldiers in
1 your courtyard.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you managed to count them and they were all just one metre
4 away from you and that you were able to tell the uniforms apart? Is that
5 what you wanted to say?
6 A. They were, as I said, one metre away from me and they were wearing
7 three different uniforms. Three of them asked my son, my nephew, and my
8 husband to lie down and I said 30 but maybe there were even more than 30.
9 They were very close to each other. They were like the fingers of my
10 hand, close to one another.
11 Q. All three categories were as close as the fingers on your hand?
12 Is that what you're trying to say?
13 A. They were around the wall of my yard, and I saw them once I left
14 the house.
15 Q. Mrs. Malaj, in your second statement that I quoted just a little
16 bit earlier, of the 31st of August and the 1st of September of 2000 on
17 page 3 of the B/C/S version, page 3 of the English version, and page 6 of
18 the e-court Albanian version, you said that on the 27th of April 1999,
19 Serbian paramilitary units, members of the MUP, and the VJ arrived in your
20 village at 5.00 a.m. Is this correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it correct that they were not in your courtyard at 7.30 but a
23 little bit after 5.00 in the morning?
24 A. At 5.00 they surrounded the entire village. It -- maybe it was
25 even earlier than that. I woke up at 5.00. That was a very bright
1 morning and we could see everything very clearly. At 7.30 my house was
2 surrounded and half the village, immediately.
3 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mrs. Malaj, in both of your
4 statements you said that you were surprised or they surprised you when
5 they came into your courtyard but now you say that already at 5.00 you
6 knew that they were in the village.
7 A. We thought that they were going to do as they used to do in the
8 past. They might stop at our village, stay there for a couple of hours,
9 and then go on their way. But we never thought that this was going to
10 happen, they would come into our houses.
11 Q. Mrs. Malaj, would you kindly tell me which crossing you used to
12 cross into Albania?
13 A. From Prizren. Now I can't remember the names. I don't know the
14 name of the -- I don't remember now the name of the crossing.
15 Q. If I were to tell you that in your first statement you said that
16 you arrived at the Kukes border crossing and in your second statement you
17 said you crossed at the Qafa e Morines border crossing, which one of the
18 two is correct and is there a border crossing called Qafa e Morines at
20 A. Yes. There is but Kukes is inside Albania. It's not a crossing.
21 Q. Was there some kind of reception centre at Kukes for refugees?
22 A. There was one at the border. When we crossed the border, they
23 gave us aid, humanitarian organisations, because we were famished.
24 Q. Other than these humanitarian organisations providing you with
25 assistance, did you speak with anyone else at this reception centre at
2 A. I don't know. I don't know whom you mean I talked to.
3 Q. Did anyone take a statement from you?
4 A. At that moment, I didn't give any statements. For me it was
5 important to bring my kids alive there.
6 Q. So you didn't tell anyone about this incident? Is this correct?
7 Then, when you crossed.
8 A. When we crossed the border, we stayed in Kukes. Various
9 humanitarian organisations offered to help us. With respect to a
10 statement, I didn't give any statements there to anyone. It was later
11 when I was in Shijak that I gave a statement.
12 Q. I'm not getting an interpretation, Your Honours, so I did not get
13 an interpretation of what the witness said.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: There must be a problem with the B/C/S
15 interpretation. Could the answer be repeated by the interpreter or do you
16 need to hear it again from the witness?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. It's fine. I have
18 the interpretation now, so we can continue. I don't want to take up any
19 more time. There is no need.
20 Q. You say that you gave this statement in Shijak. You were in
21 Shijak, if I'm not mistaken, until the 3rd of June -- until the 3rd of
22 July of 1999, is this correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know to whom you gave this statement and when, in Shijak?
25 A. I don't remember the dates. I don't know who that organisation
1 was that I gave the statement to.
2 Q. Did you write the statement in your own hand or was it a form or
3 was somebody there who typed the statement? Can you describe how you gave
4 the statement?
5 A. You mean in Albania?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Someone was -- by pen and paper.
8 Q. But you don't know who that was. Did you sign that?
9 A. I signed it, but I don't know the name of the person. I never
10 asked. I was very tense and excited myself.
11 Q. Thank you. You gave a statement to The Hague investigators, your
12 first statement, on the 31st of August and the 1st of September 2000, a
13 year and six months after the event. Who contacted you at that time?
14 A. From the Tribunal, to those persons, I gave the statement in my
16 Q. Do you know Fuat Haxhibeqiri from Djakovica?
17 A. I saw him here. I didn't know him before.
18 Q. Your second statement to The Hague investigators was given on the
19 6th of September 2001 and the 9th of September 2001, a year later. Why
20 was there any need to provide a second statement?
21 A. I don't know what to say. Why do you say that, why was it
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I guess I'm going to object because that
24 assumes facts in evidence. It may not have been a need on her part to
25 provide a statement. It may have been a need on the part of OTP to take
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Bakrac. You should approach this
3 differently if you think that it has anything to do with the witness.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I just
5 formulated it improperly. I just wanted to see whether it was the witness
6 who wanted to provide a second statement or if she was contacted by
7 Tribunal representatives.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, perhaps you should ask her whose idea it was
9 that there should be a second statement.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. Mrs. Malaj, you have just heard but, of course, I'm going to
12 repeat the question. How was it? Whose idea was it that you should give
13 another statement?
14 A. First it was my own pleasure, and then I was requested by the
16 Q. In your statement of the 31st August and the 1st of September,
17 2000, on page 4, paragraph 5, and page 4, paragraph 5 of the English
18 version, and page 5, paragraph 4 of the Albanian version, you say that in
19 November, after you came back to your house, you found the wallet of your
20 son. My question is where did you find this wallet?
21 A. In November, when I returned home, I found my son's wallet in the
22 balcony because that is where they had thrown it, under the balcony, in
23 the yard of my house.
24 Q. Now you said on the balcony, below the balcony, but you said that
25 your house was completely burned down, that it had burned down to the
1 ground. Is this correct?
2 A. Yes. But the cement around the house was not burned, the first
3 and the second floors of my house were burned but the place where I found
4 the wallet was not.
5 Q. And you found the wallet after a year and a half, is this correct?
6 A. Yes. When I cleaned the yard, this is where I found it.
7 Q. You stated that on the 3rd of July 1999 you returned to Guske to
8 your parents' house and in November you returned to your own house in
9 Korenica which had been rebuilt in the meantime. From what I understood,
10 you are a housewife. Who rebuilt this house of yours? Can you please
11 tell us? Did you perhaps receive any assistance from the KLA?
12 A. I returned on the 3rd of July, and remained until November with my
13 family. In November, I returned and only one room was intact. This is
14 where I stayed with my kids and my mother-in-law, from that day to date.
15 And thanks to God, after I had one room put in order, I felt like my
16 entire house was in order because I was living in my own home, in my own
18 Q. So the entire house did not burn down. In your statement you say
19 that -- just one moment, please, I'm going to quote to you -- you say that
20 you returned to your house in Korenica which in the meantime had been
21 rebuilt. So what is correct? Did it burn down entirely? Did it burn
22 down partially and you moved into one room? Did you rebuild it? This is
23 on page -- I can see that my learned friend, Mr. Hannis, would like to say
24 something. Maybe I didn't say something?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Something to do with translation because the words
1 in the statement in English are which in the meantime had been partially
3 MR. HANNIS: That was one thing I wanted to say. Another,
4 Your Honour, was I was just going to object because I think this has been
5 answered before and I also think it's marginally relevant at best.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what have you to say about that, Mr. Bakrac?
7 You've had the answer that the interior of the house was gutted, that the
8 cement walls remained, that the part where the wallet was intact, and that
9 the house was partially rebuilt in the sense that one room was made
10 habitable. Now, what more do you want to know about this?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Nothing more, Your Honour. I just
12 wanted to establish whether the house was rebuilt and what were the funds
13 used for that. It wasn't clear to me whether that one room had remained
14 intact or whether just one room had been rebuilt. That was the issue.
15 Because the witness said, I'm going to quote now -- on return my house.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I will allow you to ask about the source of funds
17 for doing the work which was done. That's the only thing that's not
18 clear, I think, so far.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to quote
20 the last sentence.
21 "On my return I found that my husband had burned down and there
22 was nothing there any more." So the witness did not say what she said the
23 first time. Perhaps she can clarify that now and then the next question
24 would be about that part that was rebuilt.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the sentence that you're quoting?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the last sentence
2 before the witness affirmation of the 9th of September 2001. It's the
3 last sentence before, after that there is a separate title, witness
4 acknowledgement. I returned to Kosovo on the 3rd of July 1999. Some
5 houses were --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel is reading too fast. We cannot find
7 that in the original statement.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: We have the statement. Now you direct the witness
9 then to that passage and ask what question you wish to ask.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. Mrs. Malaj, is it necessary to put this sentence on the screen for
12 you or you are able without that to tell us what of that is true or and
13 what is not true, what is correct and what is not correct? Was there
14 nothing left or --
15 A. Nothing was left of my house, after I returned from the war, I
16 rebuilt one room. And then gradually rebuilt others. But when I
17 returned, nothing was left of it, and nothing was left of half of the
18 village, and I have mentioned that some were burned, some were not. Half
19 the village was burned down. The other half was not. But mine was
20 completely burned down. And then afterwards, we rebuilt them as much as
21 we could, and also with some assistance.
22 Q. Very well, Mrs. Malaj. I am going to ask you first about some
23 assistance. Would you agree with me that we are talking about assistance
24 from the KLA?
25 A. Not from the KLA. We did not receive anything from the KLA.
1 After the war, we received assistance from the United States.
2 Q. But through the KLA; is that correct?
3 A. There was no KLA. The KLA couldn't help anyone. And I don't know
4 anything about them. I was a housewife, the mother of five children. I
5 looked after my family, my husband, my children. And when I returned, my
6 son had an accident, he fell in a minefield, and then for two months, I
7 stayed in hospital, in the hospital. Therefore I'm saying that I didn't
8 receive any assistance from anyone else.
9 Q. Very well, Mrs. Malaj. You told us that you rebuilt your house,
10 of which nothing was left, just recently, and then just a few minutes
11 before, you said that the walls remained standing when you found the
12 wallet. What of all this is true?
13 A. But the fire cannot burn down the brick or the cement but the
14 interior of the house was completely turned into ashes and the house was
15 not possible to inhabit, it was uninhabitable.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I may have gone beyond
17 my time. Tomorrow I will try to finish very quickly but I will need some
18 ten to 15 minutes or maybe 20.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We'll adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow
21 Mrs. Malaj, I'm -- your evidence will have to continue tomorrow.
22 We have not time to finish it today. You need to come back here ready to
23 start giving evidence again at 9.00. Meanwhile, overnight, you must not
24 discuss your evidence, that's the evidence you've given or any evidence
25 you may yet give, with any person. Do you understand that? Do you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 The Court will now adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.39 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
7 August, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.