1 Thursday, 10 August 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, I had expected Mr. Milutinovic to
7 be absent this afternoon, but he's also absent this morning. And the
8 informal information I have is that there seems to be some
9 miscommunication about the arrangements for his absence. Do you have any
10 difficulty with us proceeding in his absence this morning.
11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: And I understand you -- he has waived his right to
13 be present this afternoon.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, to receive treatment.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
16 Good morning, Mrs. Malaj.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: The solemn declaration to tell the truth, which you
19 took at the beginning of your evidence, continues to apply to your
20 evidence today. Do you understand that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. There's no need to repeat -- there's
23 no need to repeat that. I was just confirming with you. There is no need
24 to repeat that. Sorry, sorry.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought I had to repeat it today.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Bakrac?
3 WITNESS: Lizane Malaj [Resumed]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Good morning to all.
7 Q. Mrs. Malaj, yesterday when we winded up for the day you said that
8 you are a housewife and that you know nothing about the KLA and that you
9 have nothing to do with the KLA. My first question this morning is, can
10 you confirm for me that your village, Korenica, is one of the villages in
11 the Carragojs valley?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall -- actually, let me ask you something else first.
14 In your village, was there ever any KLA activity?
15 A. No, there wasn't.
16 Q. Now I'm going to draw your attention to your first statement that
17 you gave to the investigators of the OTP on the 31st of August and the 1st
18 of September 2000. On page 2 of the B/C/S version, it's page 2 in the
19 English version, paragraph 5, and page 2 of the Albanian version, also
20 paragraph 5. You said, "We were terrified because the Serb forces started
21 shooting at KLA positions in Nec, Smolice, Pacaj, Ramoc and the other
22 villages of the Carragojs valley." Is it correct that that is what you
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let's deal with it this way. How far away is Nec from Korenica?
1 A. There is also a village of Duzhnje first. I would say about -- I
2 haven't been in that direction, I don't know.
3 Q. You will agree with me that the village of Nec is very close to
4 Korenica, right?
5 A. Along the main road, it's not far. There is first of all this
6 Duzhnje and then Nec is after Duzhnje.
7 Q. Thank you. How far away is the village of Smolice from Korenica?
8 A. I can't tell you at all. I've never been there.
9 Q. What about the village of Pacaj?
10 A. I just know the names of the villages but I don't know how many
11 kilometres away they are but they are around there somewhere. On the
12 other side of Meja, I think.
13 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Malaj. Since you were never there and
14 you could mention the names of these villages where the KLA was, you will
15 agree with me that you heard about that from the members of your own
16 household, right?
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Who were members of the KLA.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not clear to me what that question relates to.
20 Heard about what from members of her own household?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] There was some misinterpretation. I
22 just asked the witness to agree with me that since she was a housewife,
23 and since she never went to these villages, that this information about
24 KLA staffs and headquarters and places where the KLA was she heard from
25 the members of her own household who were also members of the KLA.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there are about five different questions in
2 there. First of all you'll need to establish what her knowledge of the
3 KLA was. You have established nothing so far from her about knowledge of
4 the KLA.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Madam you said that you're a housewife. You said that you were
7 never in these villages. How come you know about these activities of the
8 KLA from these villages?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: She hasn't said a word about knowing about the
10 activities of the KLA as yet. You have to establish first of all when she
11 knows about the activities of the KLA. The only answer you've had so far
12 on that subject was that there was no KLA activity in her village. And
13 the fact that she knows of the existence much a village nearby establishes
14 nothing about knowledge of the KLA activity there.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
16 Q. I'm going to read out again for you part of your statement, the
17 one that I read out a few moments ago. "We were scared because the
18 Serbian forces were engaged in shooting against the KLA positions."
19 My first question is -- my first question is: What do you mean by
20 that when you say "KLA positions"?
21 A. What I mean is that they were taking advantage of the situation
22 and shooting at us in our homes.
23 Q. So KLA positions were in your houses, right?
24 A. No, no, not in our houses but they were shooting, there was police
25 in Korenica and in Duzhnje and from that side, they were shooting at us,
1 at my home. Not only at my home but at everyone else's home and you can
2 still see on the walls the holes from the bullets, but fortunately
3 there --
4 Q. Excellent, Mrs. Malaj. Do I understand you correctly that forces
5 started opening fire at positions of the KLA and that the KLA did not
6 respond with gunfire?
7 A. I don't know. All I can tell you is that they were shooting at
8 us, at my home and at other people's homes.
9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Malaj. That will do, as far as I'm concerned.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Malaj, in your statement, as was pointed out
11 you refer to Serb forces being engaged in shooting against KLA positions
12 located in, and then a number of villages are named and you've been given
13 the names. Now, how do you know anything about that activity?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to the KLA, I don't really have
15 any information about them. That's what was said at the time in 1998.
16 They said that we were -- that they were after the KLA but I was never
17 there myself.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: But from whom did you hear that there were said to
19 be KLA positions located in Nec and Smolice and other villages nearby?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know Smolice, Nec, they are
21 only names. I don't know anything more about them. When I was at home, I
22 heard the words, people were talking about Nec and about Smolice, but I
23 have never seen them myself.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Look, again, please at your statement, at the page
25 you're being referred to which is page 2, and the fifth [Realtime
1 transcript read in error "first"] paragraph. And the paragraph starts
2 with the words, "during summer 1998." Do you have that paragraph?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not yet.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the fifth paragraph, I see the translation or
5 at least the interpretation says first. It's the fifth paragraph of page
7 MR. HANNIS: She has two statements, so she may be looking at the
8 wrong one.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you now have that paragraph?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: If you look at the last sentence in it, the
12 middle -- beginning in the middle line roughly, "We were scared because
13 the Serbian forces were engaged in shooting against KLA positions located
14 in Nec and Smolice and other villages of the Carragojs valley." Now
15 you're saying there that the Serbs were shooting against KLA positions.
16 Now, from whom did you learn that there were KLA positions in these
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to the positions, we had heard
19 about them, they existed there.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know, can you remember from whom you heard
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Someone -- someone
23 said that, must have said that. A lot of people said that at the time.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 Mr. Bakrac?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mrs. Malaj, I will try to avail myself of this opportunity as you
3 have your first statement before you now, and I would like to draw your
4 attention to this paragraph of that same statement, where you
5 say, "Starting from the 7th of or 8th of March 1999, the men from our
6 village would regularly go to the mountain at night-time because the
7 situation was extremely tense."
8 Can you tell us why it was that men from your village regularly
9 went to the mountains at night-time?
10 A. They went away because they were afraid of the army.
11 Q. And during the night there was no army, it didn't exist, is that
12 what you're trying to tell me?
13 A. We heard from other places that massacres occurred but they were
14 always in the morning, so they went at night until the time was over, just
15 the way it happened on the 27th of April, in the morning. It was in the
16 morning, the massacre.
17 Q. Are you trying to say to me that they would leave their families
18 behind and that they would hide in the mountains? Is that correct? They
19 would leave their families to be exposed to what you described just now?
20 Is that what you're trying to say?
21 A. No, no, not because of the danger. Dragan Micunovic, they -- if
22 he said go away, get -- go away. It was his order. He was the one who
23 said it. He proposed that the men of the village leave because nothing
24 would have happened to the women.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Malaj. Excellent,
1 Mrs. Malaj. Now I'm going to draw your attention to the next paragraph.
2 Here you said, "From the 7th or the 8th of March, men started going."
3 Next paragraph. "At the end of March, Dragan Micunovic said to Gjon
4 Prelaj to bring his orders to the villagers that men had to go." So
5 according to your own statement the men started going into the mountains
6 on the 7th and 8th of March and what you are saying now is contained in
7 your statement. It was at the end of March, you say in your statement.
8 How can you explain that to me?
9 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't really understand
11 Q. Mrs. Malaj, you said to me that the men started going into the
12 mountains when Dragan Micunovic ordered them to do so. In your own
13 statement, it is stated completely differently. In the paragraph I
14 mentioned to you, you said that from the 7th or 8th of March the men
15 regularly went into the mountain and in next paragraph, right in the next
16 paragraph, you said that it was only at the end of March 1999 that Dragan
17 Micunovic sent a message that the men should go into the mountains.
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object. That's a bit misleading. The
19 statement said the men regularly went to the mountain at night time. The
20 order does not necessarily reflect that it wasn't regarding the daytime.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't understand.
23 Perhaps there is a misinterpretation. I cannot really follow the
24 transcript and -- well, my question was the following. Could the witness
25 explain to me the difference between what she is saying today and what she
1 stated in her statement, the one that I refer to. I read it out. I don't
2 know if it's necessary for me to repeat it.
3 Q. In the statement you said on the 7th or 8th of March, the men or
4 rather from the 7th or 8th of March, the men from our village would
5 regularly go to the mountains at night-time and in the next paragraph you
6 say that at the end of March, 1999, Dragan Micunovic ordered that the men
7 had to go and hide in the mountains. So according to your first
8 statement, the men went into the mountains before allegedly Dragan
9 Micunovic issued this order.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you answer the question, please?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In my statement here, I
12 remember it was the end of March, 1999, Dragan Micunovic gave us an order
13 to leave the village at night, every night, until the 4th of April. It
14 was the Easter Monday. Until that time, the men of the village were in
15 the mountains every night at the order of Dragan. And then he gave
16 another order for the men to return, "po." But at the same day, the day
17 he gave the order for the men to leave, they came back. And then he gave
18 another order for the men to go to the mountains and for the women to wait
19 by the trucks to be sent away to different locations. That's what I
20 wrote in my statement here.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mrs. Malaj, today a few moments ago in response to your question
23 why you said in your statement that from the 7th and 8th of March the men
24 went into the mountains at nights time, you said that it was ordered by
25 Dragan. Do you see that there is a difference? According to your
1 statement the men set out at the beginning of March, and Dragan drew their
2 attention to this only at the end of March. Can you explain this
3 discrepancy to me?
4 A. At the beginning and at the end, everything that took place in our
5 village took place under the -- under his orders. It was at the beginning
6 and the end.
7 Q. Are you now trying to tell me that even before the 7th of March,
8 there was yet another order issued by Dragan Micunovic that you never
9 mentioned before, that this is the first time you're mentioning that
11 A. There was no reason before -- at the beginning to say that, but
12 that's the way he acted. That's what he told us to do from the very start
13 to the very end because at the beginning we had no problem with him.
14 Q. Yes. This is my question. When you had no problems whatsoever in
15 the beginning, before March, that's what you said in your statement too,
16 why was it that from the 7th or 8th of March onwards, the men went into
17 the mountains at all?
18 A. I don't know. He gave us the order.
19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Malaj.
20 Do you know that in April 1999, in the area where the cemetery is
21 of Korenica, an army patrol was attacked and Vuckovic, Dobrica, a soldier,
22 and Lapadatovic, Miroslav, another soldier, were wounded? Are you aware
23 of that?
24 A. No, I didn't know that and that's not true. No soldier was ever
25 killed at the cemetery.
1 Q. You said not a single soldier was ever killed at the cemetery.
2 Was a soldier ever killed anywhere else?
3 A. In our village, no. No one. I can't tell you anything about
4 other villages, though.
5 Q. Do you know a person called Hatemi Kameri?
6 A. If you mean a woman, it would be Hateme Kameri, yes.
7 Q. Yes. Yes. Do you know her?
8 A. Yes, I do. Yes. She was a neighbour.
9 Q. Is she from your village? I beg your pardon. The question came
10 before I got the interpretation. Of course, if she is your neighbour then
11 she is from your village. Do you know whether this neighbour of yours, in
12 her statement to the OTP, stated that expulsions from Korenica -- or
13 rather, that this action in Korenica was carried out by paramilitaries and
14 the local police? Did you know that and, if so, what would be your
15 comment as regards that since yesterday you said there were three
16 categories, three different categories of people?
17 A. Yes. She was a Muslim woman but I don't know what happened to her
18 in her house because I wasn't there but I know about my house and I told
19 you about it. I know that there were three groups, three categories of
20 military who came into the courtyard of my house.
21 Q. Mrs. Malaj, do I need to remind you that yesterday you said that
22 the same thing was happening in all of the houses in your village?
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that doesn't necessarily mean it was
24 being done by three different groups at each house in the village.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's a matter for comment, Mr. Hannis.
1 Carry on, Mr. Bakrac.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's been entered
3 into the transcript that this was a neighbour. I wanted to move on to
4 another topic and I am to conclude soon, I believe.
5 Q. Mrs. Malaj, yesterday you stated, and you mentioned that in your
6 statement as well, this being the second statement dated the 6th and the
7 9th of September, at page 3 in the B/C/S, in the English pages 3 and 4,
8 the last paragraph on the third and the first paragraph on the fourth
9 page, and in the Albanian version, it is page -- if I may have a moment,
10 Your Honour -- yes, in the Albanian, that is also page 3. You state
11 there, "We invited the local priest, who negotiated with the forces who
12 were escorting us to allow us to go to two villages in the Gjakova
13 municipality, those being Racan and Osekpashe, but they refused that and
14 wouldn't allow us to go there. They only let us go towards Albania and
15 they told us that unless we went there, we would be killed, executed."
16 When you say "we" here, did you have in mind that column of
17 refugees containing about 1.000 people?
18 A. Yes, for the column of refugees, for everyone.
19 Q. Yes. Mrs. Malaj, did you know that a number of people from your
20 column did not in the end go to Albania?
21 A. I know what happened to us but I can't tell you what happened to
22 everyone else. I don't know. I don't know. I know approximately that --
23 well, we got -- that I think that most of them got there but I can't tell
24 you about everyone. I can't tell you about individuals, where they ended
25 up, but I know that the people in our village got there.
1 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Merita Deda?
2 A. Yes, I know her. I have known her since I was a child, when she
3 was little, but I saw her, I met her here too.
4 Q. Yes. Yes. Do you know whether she went to Albania?
5 A. No, she didn't. As far as I know, she didn't, but I'm not sure.
6 Q. Did you know that as regards the same column and the same
7 incident, she states in her statement that soldiers of the Yugoslav armed
8 forces approached the priest and told him that those who were on tractors
9 and carts will be allowed to go towards the border but those who were on
10 foot should return to their villages, she arrived at Bistrazhin and stayed
11 with her relatives. After that she returned to her house. Did you know
13 A. After the events, we spent a long time in Bistrazhin. But
14 policeman went to her, talked to her, another policeman talked to us, so
15 some were forced to return to Bistrazhin and I guess she returned home.
16 Q. Therefore, Mrs. Malaj, if I understood your answer correctly, you
17 were forced to return to Bistrazhin, to your homes. This is what you
19 A. We, Merita as well, she was asked to go back and she was settled
20 somewhere in Bistrazhin. But we went to Bistrazhin, to Xerxe and we've
21 been going back and forth six times, and at the end they told us, don't
22 come back to your homes, otherwise you will get killed but go straight to
23 Albania. As far as what I've heard myself, that's -- that's different.
24 We had been walking without food, without water, until we were exhausted.
25 Q. But Mrs. Malaj, I read out a portion of the statement of that
1 person whom you know. As regards that part of the route. And the
2 departure to Albania, that person stated that together with the other
3 people who were on foot, she was returned to the village by the Yugoslav
4 armed forces, whereas those who had other means of transport, some sort of
5 vehicles, were allowed to move on. They were not forced to turn back.
6 They could continue towards Albania. Could you explain to me the
7 discrepancy between your statement and that other statement?
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object. This has been asked and
9 answered and I don't think this is a proper way to cross-examine this
10 witness, with something another witness might have said, another witness
11 who was one of a thousand people in a convoy.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think, Mr. Hannis, you can put your finger
14 on anything here as improper and the issue is one of reliability.
15 Mr. Bakrac is using a statement which is that of a witness we are going to
16 hear from shortly. There ever been in the overall context, I think it
17 appropriate to repel this objection and to allow the examination to
18 continue on that basis.
19 Carry on, Mr. Bakrac. You'll need to repeat the question, though.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Mrs. Malaj, would you be so kind as to explain to me how is it
22 possible that we have such great differences, such discrepancies between
23 your statement and a statement of another person who was in the same
24 column as you were? Would you allow for the possibility that you didn't
25 tell the truth?
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object, lack of foundation. He's
2 trying to argue there is a discrepancy. That assumes that she was told by
3 the same person that Merita was told. She may have been talking to a
4 completely different person. We need some more foundation before he can
5 say there is a discrepancy between the two. They are not necessarily
6 inconsistent with each other.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: This question is rather -- the word discrepancy was
8 used in the previous question but used in a different way. And I think I
9 accept Mr. Hannis's criticism of this question, Mr. Bakrac. And you'll
10 need to formulate this in a way which doesn't presuppose a conclusion that
11 may not be justified.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mrs. Malaj, would you agree with me if I said that you were not
14 forced to go to Albania? That would be my first question, that you were
15 not forced to go to Albania.
16 A. I don't agree with you here because we were forced and there was a
17 great deal of force used. We were not given even five minutes' time to
18 sit and our children were hungry, they didn't have to eat or drink. They
19 used a great deal of force.
20 Q. But Mrs. Malaj, you've confirmed to me a minute ago that a person
21 who was with you in the column remained in Kosovo, she returned to the
22 village of Bistrazhin; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. That's correct, but that's how they were forced to go.
24 That's where they were forced to go. The people behaved the way they were
25 ordered to do by the police.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Malaj, can you give us some indication of the
5 distance that Bistrazhin is from your own village of Korenica? How long
6 would it take you to walk from one to the other?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On foot? From the moment we left to
8 Bistrazhin we walked for about four or five hours from the moment we left
9 the park.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In kilometres, I wouldn't know.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. You were going to say something,
13 Mr. O'Sullivan?
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just wanted to state for the record that during
15 Mr. Bakrac's cross-examination, Mr. Milutinovic entered the courtroom.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Lukic?
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
20 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Malaj. My name is Branko Lukic and together
21 with Mr. Dan Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic, I appear on behalf of General Lukic
22 before this Tribunal.
23 I would kindly ask you to bear with us so that we could try and
24 clarify some things concerning your previous statements.
25 I wanted to go back to where my learned friend Mr. Bakrac left off
1 when he asked you about the departures of the males from the villages to
2 the mountains. Can you tell us which mountains exactly they went to?
3 A. In the mountains in Korenica, so they left the houses and went to
4 the surrounding mountains, no where else.
5 Q. Which mountains are there in the surroundings of Korenica,
6 Mrs. Malaj?
7 A. It's our mountains. I don't know. We call them our mountains,
8 the mountains of Korenica. That's our land there. They don't have any
9 other name.
10 Q. Isn't Korenica in a valley, Mrs. Malaj?
11 A. I don't know that but it's five kilometres away from Gjakova, the
12 city of Gjakova.
13 Q. I didn't quite understand you. What is five kilometres away from
14 Djakovica, Mrs. Malaj?
15 A. The village of Korenica.
16 Q. I fail to understand why we can't understand each other over such
17 a simple question and why are we referring to Korenica? I asked you about
18 the mountains and their names.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?
20 MR. HANNIS: She answered that question, Your Honour. She also
21 answered the question about whether Korenica was in a valley by saying she
22 didn't know.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't see anything wrong with pursuing that, I
24 have to say, so carry on Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC:
1 Q. Is it correct that you don't know that the village you reside in
2 is actually in a valley, Mrs. Malaj?
3 A. The village is on a plain. I don't know what valley you're
4 talking about. And there are -- our village is very good and flat area.
5 There are mountains around. The mountain which I mentioned earlier, where
6 men were hiding, they were our property. It's not a valley. It's not
7 like that. It's more like a hill.
8 Q. The mountains you are referring to, Mrs. Malaj, since you are
9 trying to avoid giving the answer, I am going to tell you that, they
10 border with Albania?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on, hold on. Mr. Lukic, what basis have you
12 for saying that the witness is trying to avoid giving the answer?
13 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Because he's avoiding to give me how far
14 those mountains are or where are located. I cannot extract this simple
15 answer from this witness. We have just begun and I have a problem with
16 her in geographic terms. We have to move on much more serious questions.
17 We cannot finalise this one.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I consider that your accusation is unfounded
20 and that you ought to withdraw it.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: And you can take it that if the Bench here consider
23 that a witness is trying to avoid answering questions, it will take action
24 on it.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And if you wish the Bench to take action because
2 you think we are not, and that a witness is being evasive then you should
3 address us on it separately and not make accusations towards the witness.
4 There are ways of dealing with these matters and it is not appropriate for
5 you to make these comments about the witness's approach to the answering
6 of questions directly to her in examination of her. Please continue.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Malaj, the mountains you are referring to,
9 are they about five kilometres away from your house?
10 A. It's -- 100 metres away is the hill/mountain where our men were
11 hiding. It's not near the border. It's just above my house, a hundred
12 metres further away. It's where our men were hiding.
13 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted you to say.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Malaj, how long would it take a person to get
15 from your house to where you say the men were hiding?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ten, 15 minutes. It's very close to
17 our house, and that is part of the land that we possess, and in the area
18 which is part of our land, that's where the men were hiding.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic?
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I wanted to ask you about your statement dated the 31st of August,
24 2000. Although my learned friend Mr. Bakrac touched upon the topic
25 nevertheless I need to go back to that and that is the extent to which you
1 were familiar with the existence of the KLA in the area of your village.
2 A. There was not a single one in our village, but as far as I'm
3 aware, they were not there.
4 Q. Could we please put a map in front of the witness, the map of the
5 Djakovica municipality, being P35? Could we please have the image --
6 thank you.
7 A. Could it be enlarged a bit on my screen, please?
8 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Can you enlarge it in the area, eastern of
9 Djakovica? Sorry.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Should it not be west?
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, west. Sorry.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Malaj, I hope you will forgive me for my
13 pronunciation, Lugu i Carragojes, up to the river Keqe, what area is that
14 if I refer to those two names?
15 A. Reka e Keqe, as we call it, this is a border area. This is
16 bordering Albania. But I come from the village of Korenica.
17 Q. Do you know Lugu i Carragojes? Do you know where that is?
18 A. I've only heard the name but I've never been to that area.
19 Q. Can you tell us where this area is?
20 A. Are you asking me to point on the map or in general?
21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] If you can try because it's not possible
22 to be pointed on this map. Oh, yes, now, if you can point on this map,
24 A. All the villages or what do you want me to point to?
25 Q. If you can show us the stretch that goes from Lugu e Carragojes
1 to Reka e Keqe. [Interpretation] Would you please put a circle around
2 this area, please?
3 A. [Marks]. This is Korenica, Popoc, here. And I've encircled all
4 the villages there, Korenica --
5 Q. Yes, please.
6 A. -- Shishman, Popoc, Smolice, Ponoshec, Morin, Brovin, Mulic,
7 Butush, Kushar [phoen], these are the other villages. Nec. Ramoc is
8 further away. Shishman, here. Butush. Not this one here. Guske. As
9 far as I know, these are the ones, but I don't know any more.
10 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Malaj. That will do.
11 Now I'm going to ask you the following. Do you know who Malaj
12 Fila is? She was also born in Guske and she also married in Korenica,
13 like you.
14 A. Yes. I know.
15 Q. Mrs. Malaj Fila, in her statement that she gave on the 20th of
16 October 2001, this is a statement she gave to the Office of the Prosecutor
17 of this Tribunal, she says the following. I'm going to read the English
18 version because I have it right in front of me so I don't want to make any
19 translation mistakes. "[In English] As far as I know UCK, KLA, held front
20 lines in Ramoc, Nec, Junik, and in other villages from Lugu i Carragojes
21 to Reka e Keqe." [Interpretation] Will you agree with me that this
22 Prosecution witness is asserting that KLA positions were on these
23 positions that you marked for us just now on this map?
24 A. May I answer?
25 Q. Please go ahead.
1 A. As you are saying, about Fila Malaj, like myself, she has heard
2 about things. She is a housewife too, and she heard about it. She heard
3 about the people in the village but she has never seen it. I think so.
4 However, she -- she has seen her own husband and son being burned inside
5 their house.
6 Q. Even more reason for her not to lie about the existence of the
7 KLA, right?
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's argumentative and unnecessary.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, again I agree because the statement that
10 witness gave starts with the words, "As far as I know," which is far from
11 an assertion, albeit Mr. Lukic described it as an assertion.
12 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour, may I proceed?
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, you may, but you know, the last comment was
14 indeed a comment rather than a question. Let's confine this examination
15 to questions.
16 MR. LUKIC: I'll do my best, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Malaj, this morning we found a document. We
18 have not put it into the system and we don't know what it's about at all
19 because it's in the Albanian language. With the permission of the Court,
20 I would like to have this placed on the ELMO so that Mrs. Malaj can tell
21 us what this is about.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We do not consider it appropriate to do that,
24 Mr. Lukic, to use the witness as a translator of a document that you say
25 you know nothing about. So move on to something else.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then without showing the
2 document I'll try to ask her whether she knows who Xheladin Malaj is.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no Xheladin Malaj in our
4 village. Xheladin, no.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. Thank you. Is there a person by the name of Spend Malaj in your
8 A. Yes. What about him?
9 Q. Do you know that he was in the sector of the military police in
10 the 131st Brigade of the KLA?
11 A. No. I've never heard such a thing about that person, that he
12 worked in what you're saying he did.
13 Q. Gani Malay and Islam Malaj, are these persons who lived in your
15 A. Please, these are not part of our family. There are many people
16 with the surname of Malaj, but in Korenica, they are not part of our
17 family, no.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: The question was whether they lived in your
19 village, not whether they were members of your family. Can you answer
20 that? Did they live in the village?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. They are not from our
22 village, no.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. We will compare the list of inhabitants of your village to these
1 names and in connection with that, I'm asking you whether Dem Malaj born
2 on the 6th of June 1981 is from your village, a member of the special unit
3 of the Black Eagles in the KLA?
4 A. No. There is no one in our family with that name, no. There is
5 no one.
6 Q. Do you know the name of Ardian Malaj?
7 A. Ardian Malaj, yes.
8 Q. Do you know that he was within the 131st Brigade of Ratish [phoen]
9 and that he belonged to the mortar unit within it? The KLA, of course.
10 A. No. This Ardian Malaj has lived in Switzerland since he was five
11 years old. Now he's married to a Swiss woman. He wasn't in Kosovo
12 at the time or in Korenica.
13 Q. Is there a person named Valdet Malaj in your village, also a
14 member of the Black Eagles unit of the 131st Brigade of the KLA?
15 A. No. That's not someone from our village.
16 Q. What about a person, again I'm apologising for my pronunciation,
17 Siptara Malaj, is that person from your village too?
18 A. I don't know. There is lots of people with the surname Malaj,
19 all over the place. I don't know.
20 Q. I asked you whether this person is from your village, Mrs. Malaj.
21 A. Only if you can describe the person to me. I don't know. They
22 are all called Malaj. I don't know.
23 Q. Of course, I'm going to tell you very gladly. On the 5th of
24 February 1999 he gave a statement to the OTP, he's a member of the KLA,
25 and he says, well, let me not recount the statement now but he speaks of
1 his participation in many clashes and in a lot of the fighting that the
2 KLA had with the Serb forces. At the end he belonged to the 134th Brigade
3 of the KLA, commanded by Tahir Zema?
4 A. In our family, I can tell you that none of the women in the
5 village, in our village, is related to what you're saying. All the women
6 of the family Malaj are housewives and they are all tending to their
7 households, not doing what you're saying.
8 Q. Madam, I don't know whether we understand each other right. The
9 name of this person, the way I pronounce it, is Siptar, Malaj, it's a
11 JUDGE BONOMY: That is not the name that was originally given. It
12 was given as Siptara Malaj and that may explain the misunderstanding but
13 can I also ask you, is this -- the date you say the statement was taken
14 accurate, the 5th of February, 1999?
15 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Yes, Your Honour, that's what it says on
16 the statement.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mrs. Malaj, shall we just conclude on this particular person who
20 is a man? I apologise at the very outset for perhaps my poor
22 A. I can tell you that this person is not a member of our family.
23 There is no Siptar Malaj.
24 Q. Thank you. I'll just take you back to something that Mr. Bakrac
25 asked you about as well but I'm not going to put the same question to you
1 as he did. It has to do with a paragraph that is in paragraph 7 on the
2 second page of the B/C/S version, English version, second page, last
3 paragraph, and in the Albanian version page 3, paragraph 2. When you
4 talked about Dragan Micunovic?
5 MR. HANNIS: Which of the two statements?
6 MR. LUKIC: The first statement. [Interpretation] The first
8 Q. You're talking about Dragan Micunovic, who, as you said, ordered
9 the men to go into the mountains and that the women should stay behind.
10 What was your feeling about this order of his that the men should go into
11 the mountains? Did you take it as assistance or as a threat? It is not
12 clear what you mean by this when you say that he ordered someone to hide.
13 A. I don't know what his purpose was. I don't know whether it was
14 assistance or what. I really don't know. All the men obeyed him. What
15 he said, we did.
16 Q. He said that the women should remain in the villages and wait for
17 buses and trucks that would take you in an unknown direction. Did that
18 actually happen? Did these buses and trucks come to take you in an
19 unknown direction?
20 A. That's what was said, but it only lasted three hours and during
21 the three hours no one came into the courtyard, and then the order was
22 given for the men to return to the village again.
23 Q. The same man issued that same order? Dragan Micunovic?
24 A. Yes, yes. The same order.
25 Q. What is the relationship between Gjon Prelaj and Dragan Micunovic?
1 Why is he sending messages through this 15 year old boy?
2 A. Gjon Prelaj lives near the house of Dragan and because there was
3 no one older around, he was only 15 years old, he was maybe less than
4 that, and there was no one else there, so he had to -- so he -- so Gjon
5 was the one who was sent to tell the men, because there was no one older
6 around. And my son, Blerim, is -- 15, was forced to go up into the hills
7 too with his father.
8 Q. In the next paragraph, in all the versions, that is to say so
9 paragraph that comes right after that, you refer to Milutin Prascevic.
10 How is it that you know Milutin Prascevic?
11 A. I know him because he came into our courtyard and ordered us to
12 leave the house within three hours. He told us not only us but everyone
13 in the village, he first went to the family Dedaj and then to my house.
14 Q. Could you please describe this man to us, this man who entered
15 your courtyard, this man by the name of Milutin Prascevic?
16 A. I remember he was big, corpulent, black hair. I don't know what
17 else to say. I know that he came into our courtyard that day but I don't
19 JUDGE BONOMY: How is it that you know his name?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked him. I asked him, "What is
21 your name?"
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So he is issuing an order for you to leave your house, he's
25 expelling you from your house, and you are asking him, "What's your name?"
1 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour that assumes facts in evidence. We
2 haven't had evidence about what order things were said in.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed. But it doesn't prevent the question being
4 asked that way, for what value it has, Mr. Hannis. I don't think it's
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
7 Q. In line with my friend's objection, I'm going to rephrase my
8 question. You tell us how the entire incident evolved.
9 A. You mean about Milutin Prascevic?
10 Q. Yes, yes. Describe that moment when he entered your courtyard.
11 What happened? Also your conversation with him.
12 A. It was Easter Monday, on the 4th of April. First he went to the
13 Dedaj family, and then he came back to my courtyard and my husband -- and
14 ordered my husband to go away. And he said, "Better go voluntarily than
15 under violence." I was near my husband at the time and I asked him, "What
16 is your name?" I just asked him quite colloquially, and he told me that
17 he was called Milutin Prascevic, and on that day, he didn't threaten us,
18 there was no threat. We took our stuff with us, he gave us three hours,
19 three hours. I got the children dressed and get everyone ready and we got
20 on to the tractor and got on to the main road for Gjakova, me and all the
21 rest of the village, within three hours. There was a whole line of
22 people. They told us we could take the tractors but we would have to
23 leave the cars in where they were. That's what we discussed with him.
24 That's what I heard myself, with my own ears. And he spoke Albanian very
1 Q. And what happened then, after you left?
2 A. When we left, we got to Sufadol. In Sufadol, Micunovic was there.
3 I think his name was Aca, Aca he was called. He returned, as he turned us
4 back, he told us to go back and all the people in the village believed him
5 and we all returned to our houses. But during that time, nothing
6 happened. We returned to our village and stayed there until the 27th of
7 April and nothing happened.
8 Q. One of the policemen told you to leave your house and another
9 policeman was returning you to your homes. How much time elapsed between
10 those two events?
11 A. What could -- could you say that again, please?
12 Q. Prascevic is forcing you out of your home. Micunovic is returning
13 you to your homes. How much time elapsed between the two?
14 A. From the first to the second, well, we were given three hours to
15 get ourselves ready, and we got all our things together, and we were at
16 the electric power station near the electric pole for an hour and it's
17 not -- wasn't difficult going there on the tractor, and it might have been
18 a bit more time, I don't remember, but I remember that he returned us. He
19 sent us back. I remember that really well because I saw him and the men
20 were talking to him and he told us to go back.
21 Q. I'm sorry, may I just end by putting one more question? I'm
22 asking you how much time elapsed between your departure and your return,
23 and that will be the end of my questions for before the break.
24 A. Four to five hours altogether, going there and returning.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that include the three hours to get ready to
1 go, or is that -- that includes the three hours?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That includes the three hours
3 we had to get ready and then the time going there and coming back.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. We will break now and resume
5 at 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic?
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Malaj --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please carry on, Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Mrs. Malaj, before the break we were discussing the incident when
14 Mr. Prascevic spoke to you. Where was he then, in your courtyard or
15 inside your house?
16 A. In my courtyard.
17 Q. Who was he with?
18 A. He was inside the courtyard, when he was -- he was on his own, but
19 on the road outside the courtyard there were others. But as I said, in
20 the courtyard it was only him.
21 Q. Did he speak in Albanian only with you?
22 A. He spoke Albanian with everyone.
23 Q. You didn't know him from before?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Therefore, you could only have known him by the name of Prascevic
1 because you were told that by that particular person?
2 A. He told us his name and his surname.
3 Q. Did he have a mustache or a beard and what was his approximate
4 height? Could you describe him in brief? How old was he?
5 A. I didn't measure him or I didn't ask about his age.
6 Q. As regards beard or mustache, you didn't have to ask him that.
7 Did he have any facial hair? How long was his hair?
8 A. You told me earlier that he is tall -- you asked me, you asked me
9 earlier whether he was tall, and soon after -- soon after we got orders
10 from him to leave our own home, then my eyesight blurred because of that
11 and I couldn't see anything.
12 Q. Therefore, you cannot recall at all what he looked like?
13 A. No. I cannot remember his appearance now.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: You gave a description of him earlier. You
16 remember giving us some description?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Earlier I said he was tall, strongly
18 built, but as for his face or anything, I can't -- I can't describe that.
19 I can't remember that.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mrs. Malaj, did you see the policemen who were standing outside
23 your courtyard?
24 A. When we went out on the road, yes, I saw them, but not from very
1 Q. From your courtyard, it was impossible for you to see them because
2 there is a high wall around the house; is that correct?
3 A. Yes. That's correct. I couldn't see them from inside the
4 courtyard but when we went out on to the road, yes, we saw them.
5 Q. Did you recognise any of the policemen who were outside of your
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you stop to talk with any of the policemen?
9 A. No. What would I talk to them about? With the exception of
10 Milutin inside the courtyard, I didn't talk to anyone else.
11 Q. How much time did it take you to pass them by, since that was the
12 only occasion you could establish any contact with them when you were
13 leaving the house?
14 A. What time are you talking about? Are you talking about how long
15 Milutin stayed in the courtyard? He stayed for about ten minutes. And as
16 for the rest, we were given three hours to get ready and then I told you
17 earlier that it was about five hours altogether, leaving the place and
18 coming back again, and we didn't kind of talk to them because they were
19 not staying very close to us, and nobody was close to me, couldn't get any
20 close to any of them.
21 Q. Therefore, it took you only for a moment to pass by the policemen
22 who were outside your courtyard as you were leaving your house?
23 A. We convened where we convened, at the electric junction box.
24 There were other people from the Dedaj family and there we saw the others,
25 and Milutin was with my husband, and when we went to the gathering place,
1 I did see them, but then we left and we didn't see them any more.
2 Q. How many other policemen were there in front of your house?
3 A. In front of my house?
4 Q. Were there any policemen in front of your house as you were
5 leaving the house?
6 A. The only one was Milutin. He was in the courtyard for ten, five,
7 ten minutes, and the others were out on to the asphalted road. But inside
8 my house, in the courtyard, it was only Milutin. The rest were out on the
9 asphalted road.
10 Q. How many were there? These policemen on the asphalt road?
11 A. I don't know how many times I should say this. I said it was
12 seven people on that road, seven policemen. All of them were heavily
13 armed with machine-guns and knives and munitions, the way you armed your
15 Q. Did you know that Milutin Prascevic was killed in Meja on the 21st
16 of April 1999 at 1725?
17 A. For this, I haven't heard. Up until after the 27th.
18 Q. In that same incident, Boban Lazavic [phoen] was killed as well.
19 Did you know that? He was a policeman and Lukdrag Lazarevic [phoen] was
20 also killed, another policeman, as well as Naser Arifaj, who was an
21 Albanian, a member of local security, then Miladin Domcic, a policeman.
22 Did you hear about that?
23 A. No, no. After the 27th, when we arrived in Albania and then after
24 that, I learned about this.
25 Q. Did you learn who killed them?
1 A. I don't know. I wasn't there.
2 Q. Since you stated there were no KLA members there, did you assume,
3 then, that they were killed by the Meja villagers?
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm not sure she stated there were no
5 KLA members there and I'm not sure where "there" is and when.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the basis for that proposition, Mr. Lukic?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness asserted that in that
8 area, there were no KLA members, and that no one from her family and the
9 villages around there was a member of the KLA.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the note I have. My note is that that
11 assertion was confined to her own village. If you can show me the
12 transcript where I've got that wrong, then we can revise the position.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is difficult for me to refer back
14 to the transcript. Perhaps it is easier for me to clarify that with the
16 Q. Do you know, were there any KLA members in Meja?
17 A. No. There had never been but I -- as far as I'm aware, there
18 weren't any KLA members there, but I wasn't there.
19 Q. Then I have to go back to my original question. Who, in your
20 view, killed the four Serb policemen and one Albanian who was a member of
21 a local security?
22 JUDGE BONOMY: This witness is not here to give evidence of
23 opinion. If she has knowledge of who was responsible, then you can ask
24 her that. But you have to establish what knowledge she has, first of
1 MR. HANNIS: And Your Honour, I would indicate that on page 34,
2 line 4, she already said, "I don't know. I wasn't there," in response to
3 the question about, Did you learn who killed them?
4 JUDGE BONOMY: There you have it, Mr. Lukic. It appears to have
5 been answered already.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's why I tried
7 to have the witness state her opinion, since she said she wasn't there but
8 in any case I will move to another topic.
9 Q. Since we were discussing Naser Arifaj, who was a member of the
10 local security and who was killed, I wanted to ask you whether, in your
11 village, there was such a thing as some sort of local security comprised
12 of Albanians.
13 A. No, there wasn't.
14 Q. Do you know whether in any of the villages nearby there was a
15 local security comprised of Albanians?
16 A. I don't know. At the time we were in our homes, we didn't have
17 information about other places. I can tell you everything about what
18 happened in my house but I don't know other things that happened in other
19 places. I don't know why you're asking me about these things.
20 Q. I am not sure whether we understand each other. When I say a
21 local security or a local security force, I have in mind locals,
22 Albanians, armed by the state and people who hail from that area, from
23 that village in which they carried out their tasks, their tasks being
24 establishing law and order instead of the police. Was there such a force
25 or formation in your village?
1 A. No. There wasn't anything like that in our village.
2 Q. Thank you. To go to your statement dated the 6th of September
3 2001, I have a paragraph reference for the B/C/S and the English, but I
4 need to establish the same for the Albanian version as well, if I may have
5 one moment.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I think if you just carry on, Mr. Hannis will be
7 able to give you the Albanian paragraph number.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. In the B/C/S this is page 2, the fifth and the sixth paragraphs.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And in the English?
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that would be [Microphone not
12 activated]. In the English I assume that's five and six as well. On her
13 copy of the Albanian I believe it would be beginning with the last half of
14 paragraph 4 and paragraph 5 on to paragraph 6 on the following page.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. In the first of the two paragraphs, Mrs. Malaj, you talk about
17 Prascevic's arrival to your house and when he told you to go, to leave.
18 In the first paragraph --
19 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think I've misdirected her
20 then because I thought we were talking about her statement from the 6th of
21 September 2001.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what he said but it's not on the second
23 page. It's the --
24 MR. HANNIS: I see it's in the middle of the fourth paragraph.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's in the fourth paragraph in the English on page
2 MR. HANNIS: Then I have directed her to the correct place.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Please carry on, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] There you state that Prascevic came to your house
6 and told you to leave. You said, "We got ready right away and we took
7 some things with us." You climbed on the tractor, or rather into the
8 trailer, and you set out.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the next paragraph, you state, "We all gathered at 6.30 a.m.
11 And formed a convoy." Did you leave in the evening or in the morning?
12 MR. HANNIS: My English says p.m., Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: So does mine. The English copies say p.m.
14 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Sorry, I follow the B/C/S version and it
15 says in the morning. So we'll skip. I withdraw this question.
16 Q. [Interpretation] To move on to page 3 of the English, paragraph 1,
17 and --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, paragraph 1 in the
19 B/C/S, paragraph 2 in the English, and in the Albanian version, paragraph
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Here, you yourself noticed some discrepancies in your statements.
23 Here you state you reached the village of Sufadol, instead of the village
24 of Meja when you were returned home by Aco Micunovic. How far did you get
25 before you were told to turn back?
1 A. We got up to Sufadol, and that's where we were turned back. They
2 didn't let us go any farther, to -- on that day.
4 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Before you go on, what's the distance between
5 Meja and Sufadol? Could you please answer?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Meja is a bit farther away than
7 Sufadol. Sufadol is the first village after Korenica, where it's quite
8 near, quite near, and Meja is farther away from us. It's on the other
9 side, on the other side of our village, on the other side of the road, I
11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You're saying that you were not allowed to continue, that they
14 didn't allow you to do that. In other words, you wanted to continue on
15 your journey; however, the police would not allow to you do that and they
16 told you to go back home; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. That's the way it was. We were acting under their orders
18 and did what they said.
19 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you to ponder on the moment
20 when you left Kosovo to go towards Albania. Where did you leave Kosovo
21 and where did you enter Albania?
22 A. We left Kosova on the 27th of April at 7 in the morning. It was a
23 terrible day for us. We were forced to leave Kosova. We went to Prizren
24 by foot. They didn't even give us any water or food or clothing, nothing.
25 Only God helped us. And it was only by God's help that we arrived at
1 the border alive. The whole day, the whole night, until the next day,
2 until 1.00, we got to the border and got over the border.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Malaj, the question was a specific question.
4 Where was it that you crossed the border? That was the question. Are you
5 able to say?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, sorry. I was thinking about the
7 time. I don't remember what the place was called. It was the last
8 village. I can read it. I can find it here in the statement because I've
9 forgotten the name. It's called Qafa e Morines.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I'm sure that this was a very stressful event for you and you
13 remember it very well, don't you?
14 A. It was an absolutely terrible thing, and I will never forget it as
15 long as I live.
16 Q. Could we now have the map of the municipality of Djakovica? This
17 is Exhibit P35. As a matter of fact, we won't need this map because it
18 does not depict everything that we want to show the Trial Chamber.
19 Could we please see the map of entire Kosovo, or at least its
20 southern part?
21 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the exhibit number?
22 MR. LUKIC: [In English] I'm trying to figure it out, Your Honour.
23 Just give me one second. [Interpretation] Could anybody amongst my
24 colleagues help me? Does anybody know the exhibit number of the map of
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there are many maps of Kosovo circulating. ;.
2 Mr. Hannis can you assist?
3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour I'm not sure what he wants to show. One
4 map that we have shown this witness that shows Korenica, Djakovica,
5 Prizren and the border crossing point, is P23.
6 MR. LUKIC: [In English] That will do. That will be excellent.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we start making some progress, please? The
8 production is there on the screen.
9 MR. LUKIC: P44, please, if it could be shown. Obviously we'll
10 have to continue without the map.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that P44?
12 MR. LUKIC: No. It's not visible on this map what I want to show.
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour the Kosovo atlas is Exhibit P16 which has
14 several maps.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: We need to know the page, though, and counsel
16 doesn't seem to be prepared for this question.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mrs. Malaj, in your first statement, on page 4 of the B/C/S
19 version, paragraph 3, which is the fourth page of the English version,
20 paragraph 3, and the fifth page, paragraph 2, of the Albanian version, you
21 stated, "We arrived at the border crossing Kukes on the following day at
22 1300 hours. That border crossing is in Prizren municipality." In your
23 second statement page 4, paragraph 6 of the B/C/S, page 5, paragraph 2 of
24 the English version, and page 5, the last paragraph of the Albanian
25 version, as well as the first paragraph on the sixth page thereof, you
1 say, "We arrived at the Qafa e Morines border crossing with Albania at
2 noon on the 28th of April 1999."
3 These two border crossings are some 30 to 40 kilometres apart,
4 Madam. Did you tell the truth to the investigators of the ICTY when you
5 gave your first statement to them?
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object to that form of the question.
7 I think if we look at our map, that you will see that there is not a good
8 basis for this question. Mr. Bakrac went through the same thing with this
10 JUDGE BONOMY: This is not an appropriate way at the moment to go
11 about this exercise although I don't see anything wrong with exploring the
12 issue itself.
13 But can I ask first of all, Mrs. Malaj, this question: It would
14 appear that border crossings have names. Were you personally aware of the
15 name of the point at which you crossed the border?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was called Qafa e Morines.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And you personally knew that? That was information
18 you knew? Is that right?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: And how long did it take you to get from there to
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Qafa e Morines crossing, we
23 were about -- it was about one hour it took to cross the border, and then
24 up to Kukes, we spent a couple of hours at the border itself, three
25 hours, and then we got trucks, into trucks, and were driven to Kukes, and
1 in Kukes we were two or three days and then we were sent on to Durres and
2 then Tirana.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember how long the journey in the truck
4 from the border or from where you were near the border to Kukes took?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it took several hours. I
6 don't really remember but I would think over eight hours.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's from Qafa e Morines to Kukes?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did you travel in the direction of Prizren from your place, from
12 your house?
13 A. Yes. That's the direction we took.
14 Q. And this is south from Korenica, is it not? Or in the direction
15 of southeast?
16 A. From our village, we went to Prizren. I thought it was in a
17 westerly direction.
18 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Now we'll try to show the map. It's
19 Kosovo atlas map number 3.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the exhibit number of the Kosovo atlas?
21 MR. LUKIC: I have the ERN number.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the exhibit number?
23 MR. HANNIS: I believe that's P615, Your Honour.
24 MR. LUKIC: 645. 615, 615.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: 615, it now appears to be.
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, it's very hard to follow this and that's
2 the not the map I need. We have one map and if it could be put on the
3 ELMO it would be much easier and we would be able to see what we want to
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Which map is it?
6 MR. LUKIC: We have a Kosovo map.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: This is one that's not already an exhibit?
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I don't know how to solve it
9 differently because we need border crossings with the names and on these
10 maps we couldn't have it.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Let's put it on the ELMO.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I just want to state my objection that
13 this sort of violates the order about us getting documents they are going
14 to be used in cross-examination ahead of time.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's a map, it's not a document.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: A map is a document, Mr. Lukic.
17 Please, the order applies to anything that's going to be
18 exhibited. But I have not formed the impression that this was being
19 deliberately withheld. I think it's being tendered as a potential
20 solution to a difficulty that wasn't anticipated and therefore, for that
21 reason I think it ought to be put on the ELMO. So that's how we'll
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Please go down. We want to see Djakovica. Can you go down,
25 please? We want to see Djakovica and Prizren. Yes. Further on. Further
1 on. We see Prizren. Now go, we want to see left part of the -- bit more,
2 bit more, and then again down. Now we see it. Down, go down.
3 [Microphone not activated] Okay. Stop there. Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Malaj, in your left upper corner there, left
5 of Djakovica, northwest from Korenica, can you see a name underlined in
6 yellow, the Chamber is Qafa e Morines?
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have to pose an interjection at this
8 point. This map appears to be in Serbian rather than in Albanian. That
9 may explain the difference that I anticipate is coming up.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: It may do but let's hear the questions and answers
11 first of all.
12 MR. LUKIC: On the west side and left-hand side.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Can you see Prizren there? Did you go from the
14 direction of Djakovica in the direction of Prizren?
15 A. From Gjakova to Prizren, and then from Prizren we went towards the
16 border. And Qafa e Morines, I don't know what it's called in Serbian.
17 Q. You said that you went towards Kukes and on the map, it says
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. This will be left from Prizren. Southwest from Prizren, that is.
21 What you are showing now is Macedonia. It reads Kukci [phoen]?
22 A. No, we were not going to Macedonia.
23 Q. This is where you crossed?
24 A. It says.
25 Q. That, you can see Kukci?
1 A. We went from Prizren, yeah, here but we call it differently. We
2 have a different word. It's called but it's called that way too. But
3 that was where we were, and from about 12 to 1.00 until we got across the
4 border, and then that's at that place they took our documents away but
5 they couldn't take them because we didn't have them. They call it
6 Vrbnica, eh? We call it Qafa e Morines. There is Qafa Pruset [phoen],
7 that's the other crossing.
8 Q. And above Pruset, when you go further up, you will see that it
9 says Qafa e Morines?
10 A. They let us use Qafa Pruset. It's much closer to where we live.
11 That would be much closer from Gjakova but in order to make the journey
12 harder for us, they took us all around, that way and over that crossing
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, without disturbing what's on the ELMO, just
15 leave it there, could the court deputy bring up on the e-court system,
17 Now, Mr. Lukic, I doubt if you're going to advance this matter
18 further with this witness because there you see a map with the same point
19 given the name that the witness has given it. It may be a matter for
20 further investigation, I quite accept, but do you think that there is
21 anything further to be learned from the matter with the witness?
22 MR. LUKIC: Obviously it would be very hard although we have a map
23 that has completely different markings than this one shown on the screen.
24 I'll move on, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mrs. Malaj, are you aware of the fact that on the 9th of April, on
3 the front line from the village Deve to Kushar, an infantry attack was
4 launched from Albania and that for that reason, units of the Yugoslav army
5 moved into the sector of your village, which is actually near the border
7 A. I don't have any information about that at all. It's the first
8 time I hear about it too. Our village was surrounded. I don't know
9 whether they were around our house for three or four hours but about
10 that. My house is near to the town, to Gjakova, not close to the border
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic are you going to indicate a date on which
13 the army moved into the village?
14 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Yes, Your Honour, April the 9th.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: On that day?
16 MR. LUKIC: The day when the attack started and the enforcement
17 came in. That's the information we have.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: But anyways, the witness said she's not aware of it so
20 I'll move on.
21 Q. [Interpretation] You stated that NATO never targeted the area
22 around your village; is that correct?
23 A. NATO never bombarded, never bombed our village or around the
24 village except kasanas [phoen] where the army was deployed. But not our
25 village. It never attacked the civilian population.
1 Q. This Defence is in possession of some information that NATO in
2 that very area used cluster bombs with depleted uranium. This is official
3 data which is easy to prove. Do you change your testimony?
4 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think he's entitled to indicate the basis
6 on which he poses the question. Carry on, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. If I were to put such data before you, would that affect your
9 testimony? Would you change anything?
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, can we have a date?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you able to assist, Mr. Lukic? It's not
12 obligatory because the question -- the answer the witness gave was "never"
13 and therefore the date is not material, but if you have a date then
14 obviously it does assist.
15 MR. LUKIC: I don't have a date but I have a time frame, from the
16 beginning of the bombing until the end, it was bombed, that area.
17 MR. HANNIS: I just thought it would make a difference if it were
18 before the 27th of April or after.
19 MR. LUKIC: 24th of March is before the 27th April. I said from
20 the beginning of the bombardment.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Your data, to be of significance, would
22 have to predate the 27th of April.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mrs. Malaj, did you know that between the 24th of March 1999 and
25 the 27th of April, 1999, NATO bombed the area in which your village is?
1 A. It didn't happen in our area that NATO bombed, not even the
2 neighbouring village, Guske. No, Nec. What is around our village? None
3 of these villages was bombed. Up until the 27th, when I was there, it
4 didn't happen. After the 27th, it may have happened because I wasn't
6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Malaj. I would kindly ask the Registry to show us
7 the fourth page of 6D13 on the screen, the fourth page of 6D13. In the
8 meantime I wanted to ask you this: Do you know the person by the name of
9 Krasnici [phoen], Lus?
10 MR. LUKIC: L-u-s-h.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know him. If you want me to tell
12 you about him, he's a member of the association, The 27th of April,
13 because he has been dealing with the corpses of the families who lost
14 their loved ones in our village.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. This NGO, did it submit some sort of an indictment to this
17 Tribunal against the alleged perpetrators of these murders?
18 A. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know what they have done.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to number 34 on the list,
21 Q. Is this your name at number 34 of the list?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you contacted by the people of that organisation concerning
24 your testimony in a potential case they tried to set up for --
25 A. For testimony, for statements, but for issues concerning the
1 missing. The names that I'm looking at on the screen, they are members
2 who were missing up until 2004 and after that their corpses, one by one,
3 have been returned to us, and five members of my family have so far been
4 returned: My husband, my son, my nephew, and so on. I don't know what to
5 say. This is why we appear on this list.
6 Q. You're trying to say that on the list you are looking at, there
7 are names of those missing?
8 A. The names on the list, our children are missing, Maria Malaj, for
9 example, it's my husband and my son were killed. Maria Malaj has also
10 members of her family but there are other members, relatives, in my
11 family. In our Malaj family there are seven who were killed but we've
12 only received five corpses that we have buried. And there are also
13 members of the Kabashi family. And that's why the heads of the respective
14 families appear on this list.
15 Q. Number 35, Maria Malaj, this is a missing person?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what the witness said.
17 MR. LUKIC: I'm confused.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. She is saying these are the heads of
19 families whose relatives are missing. Let's get on with this and not make
20 it more distressing than it needs to be.
21 MR. LUKIC: Okay. [Interpretation] Page 49, line 3, [In English]
22 List our children are missing. That's why I was confused?
23 JUDGE BONOMY: But there has been -- I understand that but it's
24 been clarified since then.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell me who is Maria Malaj?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic just read the transcript a little earlier
3 and it tells you who she is.
4 MR. LUKIC: Okay, Your Honour, I'll move on.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: It says Maria Malaj, also members of her family,
6 that there are other members, relatives. In our family there were seven
7 who were killed. That's why the heads of the respective families appear
8 on this list.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Whether the people from this organisation got in touch with you,
11 did you consent to testify?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you participate in the compiling of this list?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know who carried out the investigation which resulted in
16 this list, in the drafting of this list?
17 A. Investigations, I don't know. I haven't taken part in them. In
18 this list, you can find names of the heads of families who have suffered
19 losses. Klaudia the daughter of Maria Malaj, she was killed and she was
20 killed as she was walking, behind her back.
21 Q. Thank you. I have a general question to conclude with.
22 You had the opportunity to go to Djakovica. I presume you're
23 familiar with the town. Is that correct?
24 A. When are you saying that I went to Gjakova in during the war or
25 after the war?
1 Q. Before the war.
2 A. Before the war, I didn't -- I didn't go to Gjakova, and I didn't
3 dare to do that because there were many check-points on the way. I don't
4 know what to say.
5 Q. Did you go to Djakovica after the war?
6 A. After the war, yes, I was free. Why not?
7 Q. Do you know what Kodra e Cabratit is?
8 A. No. Because I've suffered a lot of wounds there. My son was
9 injured by a mine which you had planted, and that's how I heard of -- and
10 heard about it.
11 Q. Is that a part of Djakovica town? Cabrat?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It is a part just above the old town; is that correct?
14 A. Which? Cabrat?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No. Cabrat is as you enter the city on the left-hand side. The
17 old Carsija is on the right-hand side. Now I've learned a lot about the
19 Q. But nevertheless, that is one of the neighbourhoods of the town,
20 this Cabrat?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Malaj, for having
23 dedicated your time to testify, and I would like to apologise if any of my
24 questions were difficult for you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Mrs. Malaj, the reference to
1 your son being injured by a mine, is that a different son from the one who
2 has disappeared or who was killed?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one who disappeared, he couldn't
4 be there because he disappeared, but it's the second one.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that but we have no date. I just
6 wonder if it's something that happened to him before he was killed, but
7 it's not. It's something that happened to your other son. Thank you.
8 Mr. Hannis?
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My second son. He was 11, Bekim
11 Malaj, his name is.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis
14 Q. Mrs. Malaj I just want to ask you on when you left on the 27th of
15 April and the 28th of April, you went to Prizren, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you went to Kukes in Albania?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And as I see from looking on the map and from what you said in
20 your statement, you took the main road from Prizren to Kukes, correct?
21 A. Yes. That's the main road, the one we followed. That's it.
22 Q. Whatever the name of the border crossing is between Prizren and
23 Kukes, whether it's Vrbnica or Qafa e Morines is that the place where you
24 crossed the border?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.
2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I apologise, before you continue with
3 your questions, only one administrative thing. I don't know actually, do
4 I have to propose the documents we tendered because, according to the
5 court deputy, we were advised to propose those documents to be admitted.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Which document are you --
7 MR. LUKIC: Marked map which is P35, marked by the witness. And
8 this 6D 13, the last one.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be done, Mr. Lukic, in relation to the
13 marked map which is P35, and it will be given an IC number related to P35
14 to indicate it's a marked copy of that map.
15 For the avoidance of any difficulty in the future it would be
16 helpful where a marked document is tendered, in other words a document
17 which already is in the system, but is marked by a witness, is being
18 tendered as an exhibit in itself, if it's done at the time when it's being
19 used rather than at the end of the evidence. As far as the other document
20 is concerned, it's already in the system, it's been used in the case, it's
21 not been objected to and therefore it's an exhibit according to the rules
22 we've been following so far.
23 Judge Nosworthy has some questions for you.
24 Judge Nosworthy.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very kindly. Mrs. Malaj, I'd like to
2 ask you about the NATO bombing. Now, you indicated in your evidence
3 earlier on that you had not seen bombs but you had heard a bomb. Do you
4 recall that?
5 A. But I do not know where the bombs fell.
6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: That is what I had wanted to ask you, if you
7 were able to say how far away the bomb that you heard was. You're not
8 able to say?
9 A. No. I don't know.
10 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And based on what you heard, the bombing that
11 you heard, did you do anything at all as a result of that, what you heard,
12 in terms of your family or yourself?
13 A. Done anything, you mean? Us?
14 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: What I want to know, were you affected in any
15 way by the bomb that you heard and did you take any precaution or do
16 anything as a result of what you heard?
17 A. Whatever was needed for our safety.
18 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And what did you do?
19 A. It was a good thing for us.
20 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: And what did you do?
21 A. I don't know how to describe because we started feeling safer when
22 NATO intervened but then soon after the NATO intervention, the Serb forces
23 were used, taking advantage of the situation against us the civilians.
24 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much.
25 A. Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mrs. Malaj, Judge Chowhan also has a question for
3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm sorry, you must be very tired but the question
4 is that you gave us an impression here that KLA was not active in your
5 village but the way it is put is as if you are completely oblivious of
6 what KLA was. My question is do you -- do you know what KLA was? Thank
8 A. I didn't -- I didn't know then, and I wanted very much to see who
9 they were. I very much wanted to see who they were but I didn't know
10 anything about them at that time.
11 JUDGE CHOWHAN: At that time. I mean, it is being said that --
12 whether rightly or wrongly this is to be seen -- that KLA was active
13 elsewhere, perhaps, if not in your village but you didn't even hear a
14 gossip about KLA, what this organisation was, and what it was pitted
15 against, and whether anybody from your area had interest in it or not or
16 it was completely lack of knowledge?
17 A. I did not know anything, as I said earlier, because I was confined
18 to the narrow circle of my family and had had no opportunity to see them
19 or to hear about them.
20 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you very much but you said that the men
21 folks went to the mountains because the ambience or the atmosphere there
22 was very tense. Why was it then tense? I mean, were people fighting or
23 were there only directions being issued on that account? What do you --
24 could you explain why the atmosphere was very tense there and what were
25 the forces who were making it tense?
1 A. Yes. The orders came from Dragan, but our men were not armed,
2 they -- they were like civilians, like I'm here today dressed. They were
3 dressed as civilians and they left home because they were ordered to leave
4 home. And they left and they came back and they left and they came back.
5 That's it.
6 JUDGE CHOWHAN: And there was no talk about it, why this was
8 A. At that time, when men left at night, we could hear gunshots, and
9 the -- our men were left -- left because whenever they wanted to do
10 something, the Serbian forces started an operation at 3, 4, in the
11 morning, and they completed it by dawn, and it was during that period that
12 men tried to avoid, and that was on the orders of Dragan.
13 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I should thank you.
14 A. Thank you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mrs. Malaj, that brings your evidence to an
16 end. Thank you very much for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're
17 now free to leave.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for the
19 understanding and everything else. Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sabbah, could we very briefly go into private
22 session? The reason -- just hold on a second. The reason for that
23 relates to the personal circumstances of the next witness and also in
24 relation to one matter I wish to raise with counsel.
25 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Deda, would you please stand and would you
25 repeat the words set out on the card in front of you, the words of the
1 solemn declaration? On you go. Just read it, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: Merita Deda
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please sit down. Now, we know that you
7 have provided information as requested in the past, but as is the case
8 with all the witnesses who will give evidence in this case, as presently
9 advised, it's still necessary for you to come here to be asked questions,
10 and that's the exercise which will be conducted today. Some of these
11 questions you may find challenge what you are saying, and if that happens,
12 please bear in mind that the counsel, the lawyers who are asking these
13 questions, are doing a job as professional persons. It is their job to
14 ask difficult questions and awkward questions, depending on the
15 circumstances. It's a system you may not be familiar with but it's the
16 system which operates in this Tribunal. And it's as well you know before
17 we start that sometimes the questions may be difficult and you may find
18 that they to some extent challenge what you've said but bear in mind that
19 that happens with every witness and bear in mind also that if we consider
20 any conduct by anyone in the Court is not proper, then we as judges will
21 intervene to deal with that situation.
22 Now the first person who will ask you questions is Mr. Hannis, the
23 Prosecutor. Mr. Hannis?
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
1 MR. HANNIS:
2 Q. Good afternoon. Would you tell us your name, please, for the
4 A. Merita Deda.
5 Q. And Ms. Deda, I understand from your statement that in early 1999,
6 you lived in the village of Guske in Gjakova municipality in Kosovo with
7 your family. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And who was -- who were the members of your family who lived with
10 you there at that time?
11 A. My father, my mother, two sisters, two brothers, an uncle and his
12 wife, and their three children.
13 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to have the witness shown her 92 bis package
14 which is Exhibit P2233 and again I have a hard copy that we can show her.
15 Q. Ms. Deda if you could take a look at that and tell us if you
16 recognise that as a statement that you gave to investigators in this
17 matter previously.
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we would like to tender that 92 bis
21 package at this time.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
23 MR. HANNIS:
24 Q. Next, if we could put up Exhibit P35, please? Ms. Deda I want to
25 show you a map and whether it comes up on your screen I'll ask you if you
1 can locate your village on the map for us and tell us or show us where it
2 was located vis-a-vis the town of Gjakova or Djakovica. Do you need it
3 blown up a little further or can you read it from there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you see your village of Guske?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. And where it's located on the map is where it was in relation to
8 the town of Djakovica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How big a village was your village? How many houses
12 A. About 24 houses.
13 Q. And what were the -- what was the ethnicity of the people who
14 lived in your village?
15 A. They were Albanians.
16 Q. In your statement, you describe how a few days after the NATO air
17 strikes started in late March 1999, that VJ forces came to your house and
18 gave you and your family one hour to leave. Can you tell us exactly how
19 this happened? Would you tell the Court how you first became aware that
20 something was happening that day?
21 A. On the 29th of March, an army commander came, a Serb army
22 commander came, his name was Dragan, and he told us that we had to abandon
23 the village within an hour and that's what we did. We all left within an
25 Q. Where did you go?
1 A. At the beginning, at the start, we were told to go to Albania but
2 we got to Brekoc. They returned us and then we went to Korenica. We were
3 sent in that direction so we got to Korenica.
4 Q. And I understand from your written statement that you stayed in
5 Korenica I think first for a week in a field and then later on in the
6 house of Prend Markaj for three weeks after that. Then on the 27th of
7 April --
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move, Mr. Hannis, can I ask you, please,
10 to confirm the date on which you say that Dragan came and told you to
12 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, I would indicate to you, you may
13 see in the last page in the package there was an amendment.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: A correction, sorry.
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, just ignore that, please.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. Ms. Deda, if I can take you then to the 27th of April, could you
19 tell the Judges briefly what happened on that day to you and your family
20 at the house of Prend Markaj?
21 A. On the 27th of April, at 6.30 in the morning, the army forces,
22 Serb army forces entered the house in our courtyard and they ordered us to
23 leave the house. We went out, the whole family, and they began to
24 separate the men from the women, the men on one side and the women and the
25 children on the other side. And they started beating the men and robbing
1 them, they were demanding money, valuables. They lined the men up. They
2 forced them to march. We left them where they left us. They forced us to
3 raise three fingers and to shout, "Serbia, Serbia" and their signs, and
4 when we left, 20 metres away, they started shooting. There were bullets
5 flying all over. I returned to find out what was happening to my parents,
6 an uncle, and when I looked back or I looked back, rather, I saw the men
7 lying on the ground. I don't know if they were alive or not, what had
8 happened to them. We continued then on our way to Gjakova.
9 Q. The Serb forces that you talk about coming to the house that day,
10 can you give us some details about them? Approximately how many were
11 they, if you recall?
12 A. In the courtyard, when they entered, I think there were about
13 nine, nine people. They had different uniforms. They had army hats,
14 black masks, they didn't have normal army uniforms, did not have normal
15 army uniforms.
16 Q. Can you tell us anything else about the different uniforms?
17 Colours or markings or insignia?
18 A. I didn't really see the insignia. I know that they had scarves,
19 bandanas, and their -- they had hats and so you couldn't see their faces.
20 They had -- the hats were brown, the hoods.
21 Q. And when you were taken outside, where were the men taken?
22 A. We left the men behind in the courtyard, where we were staying
23 with the family. They were lined up and they were being beaten and their
24 money and valuables were taken from them, their rings, what they had in
25 their hands or around their necks. They were lined up there.
1 Q. And when you heard the shots and turned around, how far away from
2 the soldiers away from the men in your family?
3 A. I don't know really. I would think two metres, perhaps three,
4 approximately three. Three metres, yeah.
5 Q. After that date, did you ever see any of those men alive again?
6 A. No. My father, we found the body. It was returned from Serbia
7 five years later, in the year 2004, on the 16th of April, we got the body
8 of my father and of my cousin, my other uncles, their bodies came back in
9 2005 and some of them never returned at all.
10 Q. And what information did you get at that time about where the
11 bodies had been found?
12 A. They were in mass graves in Serbia. They had been sent there. In
13 the graveyard of Batajnica. My father and uncle and my uncle's son, they
14 were found there.
15 Q. Thank you. Ms. Deda, I don't have any further questions of you at
16 this time.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?
18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we will proceed in this order. Counsel for
19 Ojdanic, Lazarevic, Lukic, Pavkovic, Milutinovic, and Sainovic.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk?
21 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Sepenuk:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Deda. I'm Norman Sepenuk and my colleagues
24 here at this table with me, we represent General Ojdanic who is one of the
25 defendants in this case and I'm one of the attorneys representing
1 General Ojdanic. Good afternoon.
2 You testified that on 27th of April, the Serb army forces came to
3 your home; is that correct, Ms. Deda?
4 A. Yes, in the house we were staying at in Korenica.
5 Q. Yes, yes. And you stayed -- though you said they were Serb army
6 forces, I believe you also said that they didn't have normal army
7 uniforms; is that correct? I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
8 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it was like.
9 Q. And some wore hats, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Some wore masks?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Some wore what, cowboy hats?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And ribbons around their heads, that kind of thing?
16 A. Yes. The bandanas were all around their heads.
17 Q. Have you ever heard the term "paramilitaries"?
18 A. Yes. I've heard it.
19 Q. And what does that mean to you, the term "paramilitaries"?
20 A. I don't really know how to define it. I heard it during the war
21 that there were paramilitary units who entered certain villages.
22 Q. And did you ever hear -- did you ever see a -- did anybody ever
23 tell you that a certain person was a paramilitary?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. And were you ever told that paramilitary sometimes wear
1 things like hats on their heads and ribbons around their necks and masks
2 on their faces? Did you ever hear that?
3 A. No one had told me about that.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. As I understand it you gave your statement on
5 April 8th, 2000; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how did that come to happen? How did you give a statement?
8 Did certain people come to see you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And just tell us about that. Where were you at the time and who
11 was it who came to see you?
12 A. I was at home. We had returned from the war. And we were
13 interviewed and I told him what had happened.
14 Q. And this would have been in April 2000, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And who was it who came to see you? I see that one of the
17 investigators - I'm not sure I'm pronouncing it correctly - Paulo Pastore
18 Stocchi. Do you remember that person coming to see you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was he with anyone?
21 A. Just could you -- could you say that again?
22 Q. Was he there with anyone, for example an interpreter?
23 A. He was there with an interpreter.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And prior to that interview on April 8th 2000,
25 can you given a statement or had been requested to give a statement by any
1 other person or group?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what group was that?
4 A. It was the International Crisis Group. That's what they were
6 Q. And did you give a statement to that International Crisis Group?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Can you recall when that was? We know that the statement you gave
9 to the ICTY, the Tribunal investigators, was April 82000. When would you
10 have given a statement to the International Crisis Group investigator?
11 A. I don't remember the date but it was before the other one, before
12 the statement given to the Tribunal.
13 Q. And could you give us the roughest idea, was it maybe six months
14 before or two months before or can you take -- give us your best estimate
15 on that?
16 A. I don't really remember. I'd remember giving it to them, the
17 statement. I told them about what had happened but I don't remember the
18 date, the exact date, sorry.
19 Q. Okay. And was that statement eventually reduced to writing? Did
20 you ever give a written statement to them?
21 A. Yes. Well, I spoke and they wrote it down.
22 Q. I see but they never prepared or did they, did they ever prepare a
23 statement for your later signature? Did you ever read over any statement
24 that they prepared?
25 A. No.
1 Q. So they simply asked you questions and you responded and they
2 wrote down the answers. Is that a fair way to put it?
3 A. I told them about all the events, everything that had taken place
4 and they made notes, they took it all down.
5 Q. Did you ever hear from them again? Did they ever come back to you
6 to, let's say, verify anything that you had said to them?
7 A. No, they didn't.
8 Q. So you saw them only that one time; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Now, aside from the International Crisis Group, did
11 representatives of any other group -- and I'll be specific here: Did a
12 representative of a group called the Organisation for Security and
13 Cooperation in Europe come to see you?
14 A. I don't remember anyone like that. I don't think so.
15 Q. Okay. Could they have? Can you just search your memory and just
16 once again and see if you can remember, did anybody from that group come
17 to see you at any time?
18 A. No. I gave my statement to the International Crisis Group and to
19 the Tribunal. I didn't give any other statement to anyone.
20 Q. So if I were to tell you, and as a matter of fact, would you
21 kindly with would the usher put -- I think Mr. Hannis has something to say
23 MR. HANNIS: I understand why counsel is asking these questions
24 but based on our internal research I think we have an explanation for what
25 is troubling him and it's totally separate from this witness. I don't
1 know if Mr. Sepenuk is willing to take my word on it. It's something that
2 we can explain to him but I don't think he will get much help?
3 MR. SEPENUK: Well, what we have here Your Honour is a kind -- I
4 very much appreciate the kind offer of hope and I mean that sincerely
5 because I think Mr. Hannis, frankly, is pretty much a straight shooter, I
6 do. I say that sincerely, but we have two statements here, Your Honour,
7 that are word for word. Your Honours have already seen there. We have
8 two statements that are word for word identical from the -- from the OSCE
9 and the International Crisis Group. If the International Crisis Group was
10 the only one who interviewed her then the OSCE is doing what they charged
11 the International Crisis Group with doing.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the issue here, though, Mr. Sepenuk is what
13 is to be gained by the exercise you're about to embark on. If it's
14 acknowledged that the two statements are identical -- I could see some
15 value in further exploration if there were differences but it seems to me
16 that the explanation for this lies elsewhere, in light of the witness
17 saying what she has said so far. Do you think you require to challenge
18 her further on that?
19 MR. SEPENUK: Oh, no. As a matter of fact, I don't intend to
20 challenge her at all. My intention was not to challenge her at all. My
21 intention was just to show that they have two identically worded
22 statements and, if we could, Your Honour before you ultimately decide on -
23 as seen, as told before, unless you've already made the decision - we
24 would like to supplement our arguments with this -- because we think this
25 shows a certain untrustworthiness in the collection process.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: You should supplement that argument by tomorrow.
2 In fact if you do it later today all the better but certainly by tomorrow,
3 end of week. But it seems to me you've made the point you want to make on
4 this. We note the challenge that you're making to the authenticity of
5 these statements and the question mark you raise over them and I don't
6 think any useful purpose would now be served by exploring the issue
7 further with the witness.
8 MR. SEPENUK: That's fine, Your Honour, and maybe we can do this
9 also by stipulation right now. Will Mr. Hannis stipulate that the
10 descriptions contained in Exhibit -- defendant Exhibit 3D1 and 3D2 are
11 diametrically opposed to much of the information given in the prior
12 statement particularly as it regards VJ soldiers?
13 MR. HANNIS: I'm not aware of that, Your Honour. I mean, I
14 haven't looked closely at that document. The document speaks for itself.
15 MR. SEPENUK: The point is, Your Honour, the statement talks about
16 VJ soldiers. We have a different situation now. When I say the
17 statement, the April 82000 statement, whereas the International Crisis
18 Group statement speaks about police.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I have no intention of preventing you exploring
20 that, if you feel that's necessary. That's not the issue I'm concerned
21 about. I'm concerned about there question of why there are two documents
22 there that may well be identical, may well be from an identical source or
23 maybe from separate sources. That's something the witness can't help us
24 with. However, it's a different question if you want to explore with her
25 the actual differences in the content of the document. That's separate
1 and that's a matter for you. Equally, of course, we can read them but
2 you've got to make that judgement call.
3 MR. SEPENUK: As long as Mr. Hannis started this colloquy -- do
4 you quarrel with what the International Crisis Group wrote in this -- do
5 you claim that it's not what she told them?
6 MR. HANNIS: No I have no -- I have no information to make that
8 MR. SEPENUK: Okay. So we can accept this 3D1 and 3D2 as what she
9 told the investigators?
10 MR. HANNIS: Well, we can accept that's what she told the
11 investigators from the ICG. Our explanation is that she never spoke to
12 the OSCE and we have some further explanation.
13 MR. SEPENUK: That's fine. If you can accept that this is what
14 she told the investigator of the ICG, I have no further questions.
15 MR. HANNIS: I can accept that that's what ICG reported she said.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: There are two different things there.
17 MR. SEPENUK: Then I'll go into it.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should proceed, yes.
19 MR. SEPENUK: Okay.
20 MR. SEPENUK: We will put up on the screen, please, 3D2.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: There is one thing I would like to ask the witness
22 before we go into this at all. And it's on a rather separate matter.
23 Ms. Deda, when you spoke of the 24th of March 1999, 24th of March,
24 sorry, the -- sorry, my mistake, the 29th of March, the first matter you
25 were asked questions about when you came in, you referred to a man called
1 Dragan coming to your home. Do you recollect saying that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: How did you learn the name?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we knew the name because he
5 was an officer in Korenica so he was known, he had been known earlier as
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. Mr. Sepenuk?
8 MR. SEPENUK: Okay. If the usher would put 3D1, actually 3D2. By
9 the way, I would ask Mr. Hannis do you have this in Albanian?
10 MR. HANNIS: No. It appears that we do not.
11 MR. SEPENUK: Okay.
12 Q. Just referring to the incident you described, Ms. Deda, on April
13 27th, 1999, where certain people came to your home. You've already
14 testified. Do you recall that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. According to this document, which purports to be what you told, a
17 record of what you told to an International Crisis Group investigator, you
18 said that on April 27th, 1999, and I quote now, "Serb police separated and
19 beat the following men." And then there is a number of men listed, Mark
20 Deda and a number of Dedas, Pac Deda, Linton Deda. Can you see it at all
21 on the screen?
22 MR. SEPENUK: Actually if you would roll up the screen, please,
23 no, the other way. That's it.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
25 MR. SEPENUK:
1 Q. Okay. Do you see the names listed there? This relates to the
2 incident you described, you say yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And is that what you told the investigator from the
5 International Crisis Group, I quote, "Serb police separated and beat the
6 following men"?
7 A. Yes. I told them about the case which happened on the 27th, but
8 also later and what happened later when the police separated men from the
10 Q. Okay. And according to this, when you talk about the 27th on the
11 27th, you supposedly said, or allegedly said to them, at least according
12 to this document, that masked Serb police with painted faces as a
13 paramilitary forces. Paramilitary forced the witness and other villagers
14 and -- out of their houses. Did you tell them that?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SEPENUK: That's all I have, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Deda, in the statement which you gave to
18 the investigator from this Tribunal, you referred to the things that
19 happened on the 27th of April as being done by VJ soldiers.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Various questions have just been asked of you about
22 the conduct of the -- of police officers.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, please, the question, if
24 you please?
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the question is that -- I'm inviting you to
1 be very careful in your description of the personnel who were involved on
2 the 27th of April and to be sure that you've told us to the best of your
3 recollection the identity of all the people involved on that occasion.
4 Can you do that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were as I said earlier --
6 there were some soldiers with hats, some bandanas, and other people with
7 other uniforms. They were wearing different uniforms.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And what do you mean, then, when a moment ago you
9 said, and let me get the exact words. Yeah, "I told them about the case
10 which happened on the 27th and what happened later when the police
11 separated the men from the women". Who were you referring to there?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the police but the army, when
13 they entered the courtyard, it was the army, and they separated men from
14 women and children. Women and children, they allowed them to proceed,
15 whereas the men were held there and they were put in a line, they were
16 asking for their money, for their valuables, whatever they had on them,
17 and that's how we left them.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Cepic?
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to continue along the same lines.
23 Ms. Deda, I'm Djuro Cepic, Defence counsel on the Defence team for
24 General Vladimir Lazarevic. In the proceedings against Slobodan
25 Milosevic, did you testify on the 15th and on the 16th of July 2002?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I would just like to ask you to confirm for me what you already
3 stated in that trial, that is to say you confirmed that on the critical
4 day, that is to say we are talking about the 27th of April 1999, there was
5 a masked policemen there and there were members of the paramilitary force
6 who is expelled you from your house, is that correct?
7 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a page citation to the transcript?
8 MR. CEPIC: Yes, of course. [Interpretation] The page is 8081,
9 line 12 through 18.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].
12 Q. Ms. Deda, is what you stated in the proceedings against Slobodan
13 Milosevic correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. I wanted to add something else.
17 Q. With your permission I would like to go back to that question
18 later and now I would like to ask you something else. Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment. Did you say, Ms. Deda, you
20 wanted to say something else?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: What did you want to add?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the question that was asked, I
24 wanted to say that the police, when they forced us out of the home in the
25 courtyard, there were no policemen but there was policemen as well as
1 soldiers on the way as we were leaving but not in the courtyard.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic?
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. I would like to go back to what happened in the month of March
5 described on page 2, paragraph 3 of the statement that the witness gave to
6 the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 8th of April
7 2000. The same page and the same paragraph both in the B/C/S version and
8 in the English version.
9 I'm sorry, paragraph 5. I apologise.
10 Ms. Deda, can we consider the village of Bushka [phoen] could be
11 close to the Albanian border?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. The villages of Deve and Babaj [phoen], are they also close to the
14 Albanian border?
15 A. Yes, they are closer to the border than our village.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in that period, the border belt was
17 five kilometres wide?
18 A. I don't know the length of the border belt.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you know anything about any illegal border
20 crossings? Did you hear people talk about that maybe?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Your brother, Pal Deda, did he make any statements to the
23 investigators of the OTP?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Your mother, did she give any statements to the investigators of
1 the OTP, or any other member of your family?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you. What is stated here is, and now I'm quoting, "On the
4 25th of March, 1999, in the village of Deve and the village of Babaj,
5 soldiers killed eight men and a day later, commander Dragan came to your
6 village and he took your uncles so that they would bury the bodies of the
7 killed men."
8 Can we infer that the only information that you got about this was
9 obtained from your uncles?
10 A. Yes. My uncle told us that Dragan came and asked them to go and
11 bury the corpses and that happened on the 27th of March and not on the
13 Q. Do you perhaps know who Dragan is?
14 A. I know that he was an army commander.
15 Q. Can you make a distinction, though? Do you know whether this
16 Dragan was a commander in the Territorial Defence?
17 A. I don't know. I knew that he was an army commander but no, no
18 further details.
19 Q. Thank you. Before you, Mrs. Lizane Malaj testified in this
20 courtroom. Do you know her?
21 A. I know her by name, yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
25 Mr. Ivetic?
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
3 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. First of all is it Deda or Dedaj? I don't
4 want to mispronounce your name.
5 A. Deda.
6 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Deda, my name is Dan Ivetic, and with my
7 colleague, Mr. Branko Lukic, and today with Mr. Ozren Ogrizovic, I
8 represent Mr. Sreten Lukic, and I thank you for coming here today. I have
9 a few questions to ask for you. First of all, in your statement you
10 stated that the VJ and the police first deployed in the area of your
11 village in autumn of 1998. Would you confirm for us that at that time
12 although traffic stops or check-points were set up, civilians including
13 yourself were able to pass through said check-points without any
15 A. There were many check-points everywhere in 1998, and we didn't
16 have any particular problem. Once I was held by the police, and I was
17 told that I had to greet them when I passed by, and otherwise, I haven't
18 had any particular problems.
19 Q. Okay. And during the same time period, ma'am, would it also be
20 accurate to state that there were not any type of attacks against
21 civilians such as yourself, that is to say in autumn of 1998, all the way
22 through March of 1998? Up to March 29th of 1999.
23 A. Yes. There wasn't any incident.
24 Q. Okay. And would it also be fair to say during that same time
25 period that civilians such as yourself went around their normal daily
1 affairs? Is that accurate?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And I believe you indicated that you had gone -- that you went to
4 Djakovica to school every day. Is that accurate?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And with respect to the other parts of civic life, did the
7 hospitals or medical clinics in the area continue to function during that
8 time period?
9 A. Yes. They functioned normally but -- they worked normally.
10 Although it was a tense time, they worked normally.
11 Q. Okay. And that is to say Albanian citizens could receive
12 treatment at the hospitals, isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And with respect to the schools that you -- that were
15 attended did you attend a state-run school, that is to say a school set
16 up by the Serbian authorities of Kosovo/Metohija?
17 A. The school I went to, it was the high school. We did not go to
18 the proper schools, the school which was properly for high school
19 students, but we had our lessons in the premises of the elementary schools
20 and that was because the high school premises were controlled by the
22 Q. Now, ma'am, did anyone stop -- did any of the Serb authorities
23 stop you from going to school on a daily basis?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Isn't it also true, ma'am, that there were schools set up by the
1 authorities in Kosovo/Metohija that gave courses in both Albanian and the
2 Serbian languages?
3 A. I told you earlier that there were schools, there were high
4 schools which were built properly for that purpose but we could not go
5 there for lessons because they were controlled by the Serbs, and we took
6 our lessons in the premises of the elementary schools. So where I took my
7 lessons when I was an elementary school kid, that's where I took the
8 lessons when I was a grown-up.
9 Q. And that elementary school building, was that also a state-run
10 school? Who set up that school?
11 A. Yes. I don't know who built it.
12 Q. Okay. The point is, ma'am, isn't it accurate to say that the
13 Kosovo Albanians, that is to say Kosovo citizens of Albanian ethnicity
14 boycotted Serbian institutions, including the Serbian schools?
15 A. The Albanians did not boycott the schools but they were not
16 allowed to get into the premises of those schools. We did not dare enter
17 those premises.
18 Q. Did anyone ever physically prevent you from entering the premises
19 of the high school that you say you could not go to?
20 A. Once I was going there and I was stopped at a check-point in
21 Gjakova and the police told me there that whenever you pass by this point,
22 you've got to greet us.
23 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'd like to ask a question, Mr. Ivetic, if I
25 MR. IVETIC: By all means.
1 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: At this stage. I'd like to ask you, you said
2 you did not go to the high school because it was closed and under the
3 control of the Serbs, the secondary school that is. And you went to
4 elementary school instead. Now, when you went to elementary school, was
5 your tuition at the elementary level or was it at the secondary level?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was at the secondary school level
7 so in the morning, it was the elementary school pupils who took their
8 lessons there and in the afternoon it was the pupils, the students of the
9 high school, who took their lessons in the same building. But the
10 building belonged to the elementary school as such.
11 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you very much. Thank you, I'm finished.
12 MR. IVETIC: Ma'am, if I could direct your attention to the
13 transcript, could we get the transcript up in front of the witness or not?
14 Page 78 -- it's in English, that won't help you. I apologise. That won't
15 help her.
16 Q. Ma'am isn't it a fact that you testified here earlier today that
17 no one prevented you from going to school?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now the follow-up question I want to ask on that is: Did
20 you ever try or did anyone ever -- any of your classmates ever try to go
21 to the high school, the proper high school building, at which time you
22 were stopped?
23 A. Did not try because there was no teaching taking place there. We
24 went to those premises where the teaching took place. That's where the
25 pupils and the teachers went.
1 Q. Okay?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: May I just ask you one question on that? Do you
3 know who provided the teachers who taught you high school lessons in the
4 elementary school?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were from Gjakova but as to who
6 paid them, I don't know.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, we will adjourn I think at this
8 stage, and we will resume again at 3.30, and I would invite counsel, if
9 possible, to have regard to the sensitivities affecting the witness and if
10 we can complete this evidence today, hopefully we shall.
11 MR. IVETIC: It's my intention, Your Honour, I only have about 10
12 to 12 minutes more with my questioning.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very good. Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.00 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 3.32 p.m.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I've taken advantage of the
18 pause to go through my questions and the transcript and I've been able to
19 cut down my remaining questions quite a bit to facilitate our goal of
20 finishing this, so I'll only have approximately one or two questions.
21 Q. Ms. Deda, if I can direct your attention to the last page, that is
22 page 5 in the Albanian, the last paragraph, page 5 in the English, and I
23 believe it's page 4 in the B/C/S, of the statement dated 8 April 2000, and
24 I just have -- I would like to ask if indeed it is correct and true as you
25 stated to the investigators of the Tribunal and I'm going to read there
1 portion here, "The police did not take part to the military operations
2 that I have described in my statement. They were only patrolling the road
3 while we were on the convoy, in the convoy."
4 Is that correct and what you told the investigators of the
6 A. On the road there were both army and police but in the courtyard
7 where I was, there was no police. There was only the army there. For
8 other places I can't tell you.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions for this
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
13 Mr. Aleksic?
14 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Deda. My name is Aleksander Aleksic and I
17 appear here on behalf of Mr. Pavkovic. I will have a few questions for
18 you and I will try to be as precise as possible. I would kindly ask you
19 to provide as brief answers as possible, if possible with a simple yes or
20 no. I just wanted to draw the attention of the Chamber that because of
21 the intended line of questioning, I will probably have to repeat a couple
22 of questions previously used by my learned friends. But I will try to
23 stay as brief as possible.
24 Mrs. Deda, you gave a statement to the investigators of this
25 Tribunal and if I understood correctly, you have a hard copy in Albanian
1 in front of you. The paragraph I want to refer to is on page 2 as regards
2 e-court in the English that is page 10. In the Albanian, this is the
3 fourth paragraph where you say, "I went on foot daily to my school in
4 Djakovica and I never had any problems when I had to pass through police
5 check-points." Is that correct?
6 A. Yes. I didn't have any problems, just one time, I was told that
7 we were supposed to greet the police.
8 Q. Thank you. In the next paragraph, just below that, you state, "On
9 the 24th of March, 1999, the NATO air strikes against Serbia started.
10 From that day on, my family and myself could not go out any more." Is
11 that correct? Is this what you stated?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Since it is not in dispute that you testified in the Milosevic
14 case, I wanted to remind you of a portion of your testimony there, on page
15 8074, dated the 15th of July 2002, line 12, line 13. In your answer to
16 Mr. Milosevic's question you stated that you could not go outside and
17 leave because there was a police check-point nearby. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. To move on to another topic, after these events, once
20 you left your house and when you were part of the convoy, during the
21 journey there were no particular problems, there were no murders, rapes or
22 anything of that nature; is that correct?
23 A. When we left Guske, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. In your statement, if you would turn the page, please,
25 in the Albanian, as regards the English, it is on the same page, page 10.
1 In e-court, the last paragraph. As for the Albanian, it is on the next
2 page, the second paragraph. You state there, "On the way to Korenica, VJ
3 vehicles escorted us." Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. To continue, in the same paragraph, you say that "during that
6 week, I did not see any crime committed there."
7 Is that correct as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. During NATO bombings, in that area, there were quite a few local
10 criminals there who posed great problems, they created problems?
11 A. I don't know about that.
12 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry to interrupt you, counsel, Mr. Aleksic,
13 but there is no page 10 in the English translation, both for this last
14 passage which you're referring to and the one previously. The one
15 previously was at page 2 but I don't know if you could get an indication
16 as to the page and the correct page in English for the record.
17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that it was page
18 10 in the -- in e-court, in the English version, but whereas -- as for the
19 hard copy, this is indeed page 2. In e-court, we have a single document
20 for both the English and the Serbian versions. I will now go back to the
21 transcript from the Milosevic case, page 8093 dated the 16th of July 2002,
22 line 20 and line 21.
23 Q. There you state, "The valley --" if I may have a moment to locate
24 that precisely. "The valley was full, the roads were full of criminals
25 and people wearing scarves and so on and so forth." Is that correct?
1 A. Yes. When we left Korenica, that was what it was like. The army
2 was there, they were masked, they were wearing black masks, hats. When we
3 left Korenica that's what it was like on the 27th of April.
4 Q. In that same transcript from the Milosevic case -- I apologise,
5 this is page 8082, lines 5 to 11. You were asked a question and you
6 provided an answer as to what had happened in your village. You told
7 Mr. Milosevic, "You know well what happened there. You know that better
8 than I do." Is that correct?
9 A. You mean that's what I said to Milosevic?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes, that's what I said. I did say that.
12 Q. Thank you. And then in your next answer, you said, "You know what
13 happened there because you issued that order." Is that correct? Did you
14 say that to Mr. Milosevic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you see any such order pertaining to the village
17 of Guske issued by Mr. Milosevic?
18 A. No, I didn't see any written letter or any written order.
19 Q. Did you hear Mr. Milosevic ordering anything regarding the village
20 of Guske?
21 A. No. I didn't hear anything like that but he was the head of
22 Serbia and he was head of the army; he was the one who decided.
23 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.
24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic. Mr. O'Sullivan?
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no questions.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila?
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honour, and I
4 have an arrangement I made with Mr. Hannis. As for the witness, she may
5 be permitted to leave.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?
7 MR. HANNIS: I would say regarding the arrangement we have there
8 are I think two places in her statement where Mr. Fila felt it was
9 somewhat confusing. I think it's clear, and based on my conversations
10 with letter and her prior answers, I'm satisfied as to what it means. We
11 agree about that but I don't know if the Court is willing to accept what
12 we agree about what she says.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Not sure I understand that because you have to bear
14 in mind that there are the interests of six accused involved.
15 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: No matter what understanding you may have with
17 Mr. Fila, anything goes when it comes to submissions toe end of the day if
18 the matter is open to interpretation so if you feel you have to explore
19 anything further then it's a matter for you to judge.
20 MR. HANNIS: Well, I don't but Mr. Fila didn't want to burden the
21 witness with anything if he didn't have to.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: That's his judgement.
23 Mr. Fila, if you want to review your position, it's a matter for
24 you. Are you content to leave the matter or do you want to explore
25 anything with the witness?
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No. I don't want to examine this
2 witness. I just wanted to point out to a fact that there might be a
3 misunderstanding in the transcript. If I had any questions for the
4 witness, I wouldn't doubt her answers. I tried to check the transcript on
5 the other hand rather than to cross-examine and perhaps it's best for
6 Mr. Hannis to read out the transcript himself. There is a word missing.
7 It seems that a witness had uttered a word which hasn't been entered into
8 the transcript. I just didn't want to burden the witness unnecessarily.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you deal with that.
10 MR. HANNIS: I think I can deal with what we've talked about.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
12 Q. Ms. Deda, in your statement in paragraph 7, I think it's numbered
13 on your copy, you talked about the events on the 29th of March when you
14 were ordered to leave your house and the convoy went to Korenica or moved
15 from Korenica and arrived at Meja where in your statement you say, "the VJ
16 stopped the convoy and ordered the people to go and stay in different
17 houses in Korenica."
18 So had you actually gotten as far as Meja and then you were told
19 to go back to Korenica and stay there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the other question I have for you relates to paragraph --
22 let's see, paragraph 9, that's two paragraphs down from that. On the 27th
23 of April, you say, "the VJ soldiers came to our house and forced us to
24 leave." On the 27th of April, you weren't staying in Guske at your family
25 home, correct? You were in Korenica at somebody else's house? And that
1 was the house of Prend Markaj?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Then I just have a couple of other questions. You
4 answered Mr. Ivetic when he was asking you about going to school, and you
5 said that's "we did not dare enter on those premises of the high school,
6 the Serb-controlled high school." Why did you not dare to enter those
8 A. It was closed. There was no teaching going on there. The
9 secondary school was closed. There were only Serbs who could go into it.
10 Q. Okay. And why was there no teaching being provided at the
11 secondary school?
12 A. I only know that only Serbs went in there and the teachers our
13 teachers didn't dare go into the building.
14 Q. You mean the Albanian teachers?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Ivetic also asked you about the last paragraph in your
17 statement where you said that the police were only patrolling the road
18 when you were in the convoy. The police patrolling the road, can you tell
19 us what kind of uniforms they wore? How were they dressed?
20 A. Had they wore camouflaged uniforms in two colours. I don't know
21 how to explain it any better. Police uniforms.
22 Q. Do you recall what colour?
23 A. They were -- they wore a light and dark-blue colour.
24 Q. Did you know of any police to wear different coloured uniforms or
25 are those the only uniforms that you associate with the police?
1 A. There are other police uniforms, which are lighter, a light
3 Q. And the last one I had, I think it was Mr. Aleksic directed you to
4 a portion of the transcript from your testimony on 15 July in 2002 in the
5 Milosevic case where he read a part of your answer on page 8074 at line
6 12. The question that you were asked by Mr. Milosevic was, "From the 24th
7 of March when the NATO air strikes began against Serbia, why could you and
8 your family not go out any more?" Mr. Aleksic read the first sentence of
9 your answer which was, "we didn't dare to go out because the police had a
10 check-point there." The rest of your answer was, "They were everywhere
11 and they would take all the men away." Was that your answer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is that what the situation was at that time after the NATO air
15 A. Yes. The police and the army were everywhere. There were even
16 more after the beginning of the bombing campaign and the police, the army
17 was on constant movement around. We didn't dare to go out.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. HANNIS: I have no more questions.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
21 Judge Chowhan has a question.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I'm sorry, it will be a very small short question.
24 You spoke of people wearing masks when you saw them in that position of
25 firing and riding. Now if they were wearing masks, how were you able to
1 identify them? And could you please also tell us what type of masks they
2 were wearing and what other methods they were adopting to camouflage
3 themselves and how could you get to know the identity? I'm very grateful.
4 I'm sorry to bother you.
5 A. When they originally came into the courtyard of Prend Markaj, they
6 were wearing black masks. You could only see their eyes and they wore
7 black masks but there were also some with hats and some with bandanas
8 around their heads. I saw them. They came into the courtyard like that.
9 And they separated the men from the women.
10 JUDGE CHOWHAN: But how did you find out who they were accurately?
11 A. I don't know who they were. I imagine they were the army. They
12 took the men away and killed them but I don't know their names, who they
13 were personally.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you very much.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Deda, thank you very much -- sorry, Mr. Hannis.
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in light of Judge Chowhan's question I'd
19 like to ask one question if I may.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
21 Further re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
22 Q. Ms. Deda, what language were these soldiers speaking who came to
23 your house on the 27th of April?
24 A. They spoke Serbian.
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. No further questions.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, is there any matter arising from these
2 various questions of Judge Chowhan and Mr. Hannis that any Defence
3 counsel wishes to raise? All right. Thank you very much.
4 Well, that completes your evidence, Ms. Deda. Thank you very
5 much for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are now free to leave.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan?
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Before the next witness comes in, I can raise a
10 procedural matter which we feel may affect the witness who is scheduled to
11 testify as early as tomorrow. I'd like to address you on that at some
12 point before we end the day.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, carry on.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It relates to the witness Nike Peraj who may in
15 fact begin his testimony tomorrow.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: You're raising my hopes when you tell me that.
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, there are two matters in relation to him.
18 He's now been designated as an 89(F) witness and under your order on the
19 11th of July, the order on procedure and evidence the Prosecution is
20 obligated to provide his 89(F) statement at least 48 hours in advance of
21 his testimony in both English and the language of the accused. We
22 received neither to this point. Neither the English or the B/C/S. And
23 the second point is this morning we received a document, some disclosure
24 in relation to this witness which is in English only. Again not
25 translated into the language of the accused. So we are very concerned
1 that our clients --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What was that item? The disclosure that you say
3 was in English only?
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It's a four page document, notes on statements
5 made by Nike Peraj during telephone conversation of 11 July 2005, a
6 telephone conversation with the OTP.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And would English appear to be the language in
8 which the notes were made originally?
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It would appear so because I don't believe there
10 is a B/C/S translation.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And is there an obligation to translate something
12 of that nature disclosed to you?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, for consultation with our clients. It's a
14 statement of the -- Mr. Peraj under 66(A)(ii).
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a matter of interpretation perhaps but
16 if it was simply a document that was being disclosed to you --
17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We say it's tantamount to proofing notes and
18 proofing notes by definition are statements of the accused -- of a
19 witness. It should come to us and be translated into the language of the
20 accused for the accused to be able to consult with his counsel.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
22 Mr. Stamp, could you deal with this, please?
23 MR. STAMP: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour. There are a
24 couple of issues here, first those notes are notes of an interview on a
25 telephone that was conducted sometime ago with the witness. They are
1 not -- they do not comprise a statement or any statement of the witness
2 under Rule 66.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: You mean they are not what the witness said?
4 MR. STAMP: They are what the witness stayed.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a statement, Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Well, there have been a lot of judicial interpretation
7 of what Rule 66 refers to. Rule 66 refers to a statement a formal
8 statement given to the OTP, and those notes are in a conversation which
9 our investigator might have with a witness and you would imagine there
10 were dozens of conversations that investigators might have with witnesses
11 over four or five years. Any conversation are the record or notes of any
12 conversation would not necessarily fall under Rule 66. However the
13 practice has been that if they involve anything significant, then we would
14 disclose those notes as a matter of fairness to the Defence. But they are
15 not a part of the witness's statement and therefore, they do not there is
16 no requirement that they be translated under Rule 66. The second aspect
17 of the submission is in respect to the material the Rule 89(F) material
18 for the witness. The Court did order that the 89(F) material should be
19 disclosed 48 hours before. Now there seems to be a little bit of a
20 misunderstanding. The witness testified in the Milosevic case under Rule
21 92 bis so there is a Rule 92 bis package for the witness. About Monday or
22 Friday, I can't recall exactly but I could provide the exact date and
23 time, the 89(F) notification with the translations into B/C/S was admitted
24 to the Defence. Sorry? And that was a 92 bis documentation from the
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's it that will be what's presented?
2 MR. STAMP: May I go on because it becomes slightly more
3 complicated. That package and I call it a package because it is composed
4 of three statements, one of them very lengthy and one of them of moderate
5 length, and when he came here this week, and has been proofed, he had
6 other information which I thought should go into his statement so I found
7 myself in a position with four statements. I thought instead of doing the
8 proofing notes which my friend spoke of and having regard to the
9 difficulty I saw the Court having this week with four or five different
10 statements, especially that deal with the same narrative incident, you
11 know, moving from one statement to another to find what is said, that I
12 could put all of them into one statement which is what I'm trying to do.
13 The other problem is two of those previous statements are not paragraphed,
14 so I thought it would be convenient to the Court to provide a formal 89(F)
15 statement which is just a composite of all three previous statements plus
16 the proofing notes where everything will be organised with paragraph
17 numbers. So in the course of what I suspect the Defence will agree with
18 me would be a witness of some interest and they might be some
19 cross-examination, it could run smoothly and efficiently. So this latter
20 89(F) statement is an attempt on my part to assist the Court and to help
21 the proceedings to move more efficiently when the witness comes. It is a
22 composite of the previous statements which were disclosed to the Defence
23 on Monday according or in accordance with your order that it be disclosed
24 48 hours before, plus the proofing notes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Have they -- have the proofing notes been disclosed
1 at this stage?
2 MR. STAMP: The proofing notes are part of that document and the
3 proofing notes --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: We are talking about the additional information you
5 obtained at the beginning of the week in the proofing. Has that been
6 disclosed to the Defence?
7 MR. STAMP: The additional information is a part of that document
8 which the Defence has, which is in English. What I'm trying to do to
9 make -- as I said what I'm trying to do is to put everything into one
10 document where the additional information composed of about three or four
11 new paragraphs is clearly marked and that we are trying to get a rush
12 translation done for that and we are trying to have the English disclosed
13 to the Defence as soon as possible. I think at the next break. The B/C/S
14 draft disclosed to the Defence sometime this afternoon. It will be a
15 draft and we will trying to get an official B/C/S translation to put on
16 the EDS for tomorrow. Not the EDS, the e-court for tomorrow.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, being realistic in this are we going to reach
18 him tomorrow?
19 MR. STAMP: To some degree it depends on how the next witness
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it not possible simply to put him back and
22 replace -- well, to put him back and bring someone else?
23 MR. STAMP: It will not be possible to bring anyone. There are
24 two witnesses before him.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
1 MR. STAMP: Perhaps they will take the rest of today and tomorrow.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: But let's assume that they do that, and then on
4 MR. STAMP: He starts.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you not bring someone else on Monday?
6 MR. STAMP: I think notice -- I'm not completely familiar with the
7 arrangements for bringing witnesses but I could say off-hand that the
8 notice would be too short to bring somebody from Albania for tomorrow.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It's -- I've said it before, I'll say it again it
10 seems to me a crazy system, this proofing days before a witness is
11 supposed to give evidence when there has been a lengthy pre-trial phase in
12 the case. I cannot, still cannot understand why the Prosecution don't
13 have lawyers go over statements with witnesses much earlier so that the
14 final statements are available well before the witness is due to testify.
15 I can see that this will be an ongoing problem in the trial as long as
16 that practice persists.
17 MR. STAMP: I entirely agree with that.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: I commend the efforts you're making to combine it
19 all into one and that it would plainly be of assistance to have that and
20 not -- so far as it can be avoided and not moving between a number of
21 documents. And if I have understood entirely what you've said, then the
22 Defence already have all but a few paragraphs already translated into
24 MR. STAMP: All of this, all of it but four paragraphs, I think it
1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic?
4 MR. VISNJIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much. Only two
5 things. [Interpretation] First of all, as regards the discussion about
6 whether this is a statement or not, I can only tell you --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Anything you say on that matter can only weaken
8 your position. I would counsel you to say no more. What's the second
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] The second point is this: This
11 witness is not just an ordinary witness. He has provided a long and
12 elaborate statement. Actually there are a few statements that he
13 provided. And what Mr. Stamp is saying now about a few paragraphs may
14 appear as a lengthy addition which is very simple and very
15 straightforward, but as far as we are concerned, as far as our
16 investigation is concerned, this may be very -- a very lengthy process.
17 We had a conversation before the disclosure of his statement according to
18 Rule 89(F) and we heard that this witness would speak about the crime
19 bases or who was an immediate participant, and if we did not have a number
20 of pieces of evidence to show we would have accepted a shorter term, but
21 when it comes to this witness and when it comes to the cross-examination,
22 you will see that we want to do a very long cross-examination. Any new
23 piece of information requires a certain reorganisation of the job that I'm
24 not sure that we will be able to do within the next 12 hours, if we don't
25 get to bed at all tonight.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you for that, but we have already
2 decided there is no answer to the two points made by Mr. O'Sullivan. In
3 our opinion, in this context, the record of conversation which is supposed
4 to be a verbatim record of what the witness said falls within 66(A)(ii)
5 and if the practice has been that that should be disclosed and translated
6 form then that must be translated. The rule doesn't require that but that
7 seems to be the practice that's followed. And secondly, the four
8 paragraphs are undoubtedly also within Rule 66(A)(ii) and therefore they
9 have to be disclosed timeously, in the language of the accused in
10 accordance with the practice. So there will allowed to the Defence the
11 necessary time. However, that may be weekend time. There is always a
12 sting in the tail. I think what's clear from this is that the witness
13 can't start giving evidence tomorrow, but as long as these matters are
14 dealt with between now and tomorrow, then he can start on Monday.
15 Obviously, in every case, that's subject to something unexpected emerging
16 or unforeseen emerging, whereupon appropriate applications would be made
17 by anyone affected. Just in case there are difficulties, I would hope
18 that for Monday the Prosecution have in hand other possible witnesses. So
19 that's how the matter will be dealt with on the information presently
20 available. We can now, I think, proceed --
21 MR. STAMP: It I just briefly? We accept the ruling and the
22 Prosecution is guided by it and ensure that the order is complied with,
23 but, however, it may well be that in the course of the case we'll need
24 clarification on that.
25 What are called proofing notes, as Your Honour can well imagine,
1 almost any time a witness has spoken to by a different person there might
2 be something that is apparently new and significant, and it is the
3 practice of the Prosecution that we disclose it to the Defence. If
4 additional information, when the witnesses come to The Hague -- or should
5 I put it this way, if additional information elicited from the witness
6 when they come to The Hague and disclose to the Defence may leave the
7 Prosecution in a position where the testimony of the witness is postponed,
8 then it is possible that of the over 100 witnesses that we have we are
9 going to find ourselves in this situation quite frequently. And I agree
10 that the ideal situation is that we should probably go and talk to all the
11 witnesses in all the cases sometime before but we -- there is not
12 sufficient resources to bring them here before they testify for proofing,
13 send them back, and then bring them back immediately before they testify.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, I understand the Prosecution's attitude
15 to this, and the reasons that the Prosecutor herself thinks justify this
16 course of action. But bear in mind that some of the accused here spent
17 over two years in custody while allegedly an investigations were being
18 carried out into the case, and some, I think, were here from the year --
19 were before the Court from the year 2002 and one would expect that, with
20 such a lengthy pre-trial process, things would be in order when the trial
21 got going. So I have to say that I am not terribly sympathetic to the
22 overall proposition or the proposition that this will affect a large
23 number of witnesses. I am, however, likely to be sympathetic to an
24 unforeseen development that occurs, that affects the Prosecution. But it
25 seems to me that if you envisage a general problem, then you're going to
1 be required to take steps to avoid that problem occurring. One of the
2 remedies open to the -- in fact, there are wide-ranging remedies open to
3 the Court where there is a failure to comply with the disclosure
4 obligations. The Pre-Trial Judge or the Trial Chamber may decide proprio
5 motu or if he request of either party for sanctions to be imposed on a
6 party which fails to perform its disclosure obligations pursuant to the
8 Now, it may be that delaying the proofing exercise results in a
9 failure to disclose, a failure to perform disclosure obligations. So you
10 should be alert to that but for the moment, we confine what we say in the
11 form of an order to the circumstances affecting this very important
12 witness. And we leave it to you to try to make arrangements to ensure
13 that the paperwork is in a fit state for his evidence to begin on Monday.
14 Meanwhile, we'll proceed to the next witness.
15 MR. STAMP: Very well, as it pleases you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: The next witness is?
17 MR. STAMP: That is Martin Pnishi.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Pnishi.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration by
23 reading what is placed in front of you now?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: Martin Pnishi
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
4 We are all aware, Mr. Pnishi, that you have provided information
5 which has been recorded in writing and is before us. But in the case of
6 all witnesses who have done so in this case, there will also be further
7 examination by questions in court, and that's why you're here today.
8 You're in the same position as every other witness giving evidence in this
9 case. These questions will be asked by a number of people representing
10 the Prosecution and the various accused here. They are acting in a
11 professional capacity and as part of their job in some instances may have
12 to challenge your answers or ask you questions which appear to be
13 difficult to answer. That is just part of the process that is followed in
14 this Tribunal. If we consider that anyone asks something inappropriate
15 then we will interrupt the process but in the absence of any sign of
16 interruption from the Judges, then the task for you is quite simply to
17 answer each of the questions posed to the best of your ability. The first
18 person to ask you questions will be the representative of the Prosecutor,
19 and that will be Mr. Stamp. Mr. Stamp?
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
21 Examination by Mr. Stamp:
22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please state your first and last
24 A. Good afternoon. My name is Martin Kole Pnishi.
25 Q. And in 1999, were you living in Meja village in the municipality
1 of Gjakova?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you're a farmer?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Prior to that, up until 1983, you were a police officer; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Pnishi, as His Honour indicated, we have already the
9 statement that you referred to so I'm going to take you quickly through
10 one or two aspects of it. But before I do, Your Honour, may I just
11 indicate that the two statements referred to are P2236. I don't think I
12 need take him through identifying his signature unless there are
13 objections. They were part of the 92 bis package presented before.
14 Can you recall the 22nd of April 1999? Did anything significant
15 happen in the district where you live?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In one or two sentences, can you tell me what happened -- tell us
18 what happened?
19 A. The 22nd of April, at about 17 hours, it was in the village of
20 Meja, in the village of Meja, a criminal militant, Prascevic, with another
21 four associates of his, were killed.
22 Q. What do you mean by criminal militant Prascevic? What was the
23 office or position of this person and his associates?
24 A. I can say that he did all that he could do and I'm talking about
25 what he did in the Gjakova municipality. He did whatever he wanted to do
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Pnishi, remember we don't have a lot of time and
3 so I'm going to ask you just to focus on answering my questions with
5 Can you tell us what was the official job title of Prascevic and
6 the four persons or four associates that were killed on the 22nd?
7 A. He was the head of the police department in the Gjakova
8 municipality, and he has done, he did whatever he wanted to do and
9 whatever he could do, and he has killed a lot of people, he had -- he has
10 beaten up, he beat up a lot of people, and so on.
11 Q. Now, after Mr. Pascevic was killed, did anything happen in your
12 community? Now I'm going to ask you to tell me if anything happened in
13 one sentence.
14 A. After he was killed, the convoys of police and military forces
15 came from Gjakova to the village of Meja and they were shooting at houses,
16 they came to the scene of the -- of what happened. They were shooting
17 from the road to all houses along the road, so they fired automatic
18 rifles, they fired at my brother's house and they had to lie flat on the
19 ground to avoid being shot and killed.
20 Q. Now, on the 23rd of April, did you leave with your family to go
21 and stay with persons in the village of Jahoc?
22 A. That's true. That night, all the neighbours came to my cellars
23 and they took shelter there, and we were altogether 60 people, women,
24 elderly and the following day we went to a nearby village to get some more
25 shelter there near the mountains and for a few days there was no offensive
1 up until the 27th when the main offensive started.
2 Q. Now, on the morning of the 27th you returned from Jahoc to your
3 home in Meja, that's correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. We came to feed the animals. I returned
5 with my wife and soon after, my son came, to feed the cows, the pigs and
6 the hens but then we had to go to Jahoc, but thousands of police,
7 military, and other forces cropped up unexpectedly in the area.
8 Q. Very quickly, in your statement, remember that we have your
9 statement so again I'm going to ask you to be as precise as possible. In
10 your statement you said that four men, including police and soldiers,
11 brought somebody by the name of Kole Dushmani to your house. Is that
13 A. Yes, that's correct. They found Kole Dushmani and he slept at his
14 daughter's house and then he was coming back by bicycle to his village in
15 Korenica and then they stopped him and in front of my house, they beat
16 him, then they asked him, "Whose house is this?" And then he told them it
17 was Martin Pnishi's house they broke into my place and they -- they told
18 us to go to Albania to leave, they were -- behaved brutally with me. They
19 fired -- they fired their automatic weapons on the ground or in the air.
20 Q. Now, in your statement you said that they wore masks. Did all of
21 them wear masks or did only some of them wear masks?
22 A. Two policemen, they were wearing their uniforms and they were
23 wearing masks.
24 Q. Thank you?
25 A. But the two Russians didn't have masks.
1 Q. Very well. I was about to ask you about the two Russians anyway.
2 The two Russians, how did you know that they were Russians? What language
3 did they speak?
4 A. They were speaking Russian, strasvoji [phoen], and so on. I used
5 to learn Russian at school. I picked up a few words.
6 Q. And you also said that they were in your statement, they wore
7 green camouflage uniforms; is that correct? Was it green camouflage
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. That's the Russians?
11 A. It was the Serbian police with camouflage, whereas the Russians
12 were wearing blue colour uniforms and grey.
13 Q. The -- you said that they took Kole to your brother's house. Did
14 you see them take him --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- to your brother's house and if so, where were you when they
17 took him into your brother's house?
18 A. I saw with my own eyes because they brought him first to my door
19 and when they asked me to lie on the ground, Kole said, "Well, be
20 courageous" and then someone started speaking Russian. They -- then they
21 left me lying on the ground and they took Kole to my brother's house. I
22 went out to the -- to watch from the window and I could see him being
23 taken into the courtyards of my brother's house.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Bench ask the witness to speak much
1 more slowly?
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. Mr. Pnishi, could you try to remember to answer my questions as
4 precisely as possible and speak slowly so that the translators can get
5 down every word you say? So we can get a good record much what you're
7 What I want to know is -- well, you said in your statement that
8 you heard many shots coming from your brother's house after they took Kole
9 into your brother's house. What I really want to know, how long after you
10 saw them taking him into your brother's house did you hear these shots
11 coming from your brother's house?
12 A. I heard the shots as soon as they entered the house of my brother.
13 Soon after that I heard shots being fired.
14 Q. Can you estimate the time, when you say "soon"? Could you give us
15 an estimate?
16 A. Not even a minute.
17 Q. Can you tell us what became of Kole? Did you ever see him alive
19 A. I have not -- I didn't see him alive after that. 19 days after
20 what happened, we went to check in my brother's house what had happened.
21 When we entered the house we found Kole lying down, and we managed to
22 identify him and that he was Kole Dushmani.
23 Q. What did you notice about him when you went to your brother's
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, this is quite detailed examination,
1 Mr. Stamp, of matters which are clearly recorded in the statement. If
2 it's to be supplemented, fine, or if there is something you wish to
3 emphasise but we don't want to go through the whole statement when we've
4 got it here to read.
5 MR. STAMP: Very well.
6 Q. What was the condition of your brother's house when you went back
7 to it 19 days later?
8 A. The house of my brother is just over five -- ten metres further
9 away from my house.
10 Q. So what happened to your brother's house when you went back there
11 and saw it?
12 A. The house was burned, and Kole Dushmani's body was lying on the
13 ground. He was dead. And when we searched further, we could see like 15
14 bullet holes on the wall.
15 Q. You've indicated in your statement that you saw the police pushing
16 or escorting seven young men along the Ura e Traves bridge and then they
17 shot those men. And you later said that one of the policemen included
18 Predrag Stojanovic?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you go on to that, sorry, I'm going
20 back to the points where I interrupted you. Now that you've taken some
21 more material, can I just clarify one thing with the witness in relation
22 to the question which I did interrupt?
23 Mr. Pnishi, you were asked by Mr. Stamp what did you notice about
24 the -- Kole Dushmani's body when you went to your brother's house. Could
25 you answer that now, please?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. His body was lying on the
2 kitchen floor, and all that was in the kitchen was burned down, and we
3 could see, we could see, we could see that -- a drawing around his body on
4 the same day we got his body and organised the quick burial.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you tell from his body how he had been
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bullets, bullet holes that could
8 be seen, it was just in the front part of his body, and they had -- they
9 had penetrated his body and fallen on to the wall, you could see the holes
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Were there many bullet holes on his body?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many, there were. On the wall we
13 could see 15 to 16 holes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Sorry, one question. Excuse me, please. What was
16 the condition of the body? Because you went and saw it after a few days.
17 Did the body suffer from putrefaction or was it all looking -- a fresh,
18 dead body lying there? That condition I would like to know.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I may explain that. The body
20 was lying on the floor, on the cement. It was not burned. There was --
21 there was smoke inside the walls which remained there, and it -- the -- it
22 was not burned, and it was not -- it was preserved in this way so it was
23 not decomposed because of the smoke.
24 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Thank you.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp?
1 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you very much,
2 Your Honour.
3 Q. You say later that day you sought refuge in your Godfather's house
4 in Jahoc and from your Godfather's house you saw seven young men who were
5 shot on the bridge, Ura e Traves. When you saw these men being shot, how
6 far were you away from them?
7 A. Close enough that I left my place I went to my Godfather's house
8 and from the third floor, in aerial -- in aerial distance it was like 50
9 metres away where these seven young men were shot.
10 Q. And you said that you could identify one of the policemen who shot
11 these seven men. Can you say his name, please?
12 A. Yes. His name is Predrag Stanojevic -- Stojanovic.
13 Q. Sorry, I beg your pardon.
14 A. Yes, I knew him before, from the 1970s onwards.
15 Q. So you knew him to be a police officer? And if so, from --
16 attached to which department?
17 A. Yes. He was a policeman.
18 Q. And he was attached to which police department?
19 A. In Gjakova police force he worked.
20 Q. You also in your statement said Dragutin, the police commander in
21 Panoshec was among those who were separating the men from women and
22 children in Meja Rize [phoen]. Who is this Dragutin? Have you ever
23 discovered -- well, who was he?
24 A. Dragutin was Stojanovic, nicknamed Guta. He was a police
25 commander in Panoshec. He took his car in Korenica and he blocked the
1 road with his car so when all the tractors and cars came there they had to
2 stop. So he set up kind of a check-point there.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Pnishi. Is Dragutin Stojanovic
4 nicknamed Guta the same Stojanovic who you saw shooting the seven young
6 A. Stanojevic, Stojanovic, it's one letter which makes the difference
7 between the two names.
8 Q. So there are two persons? Thank you.
9 A. Yes, they are two different persons.
10 Q. Could we quickly show the witness I know I'm going over the
11 planned time but could we quickly show the witness map P35? And could you
12 pan so that we could have a close-up view of the surrounding area, the
13 area surrounding Djakovica?
14 Can you see that map, sir? Can you make out the town of
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Okay?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. There are just about four or five things I'd like you to point out
20 on the map but I'd also like to you mark it so perhaps the usher could
21 assist. Now, excuse me, is that something that will mark it? Okay. Well,
22 he should -- Mr. Pnishi, if you touch the thing with that, it will mark
23 it. So what I'd like you to do is mark with an H where your house is
24 located at. Can you point to where your house is located at first?
25 A. Yes. The house is here.
1 Q. Your house. Can you mark where your house is located on that map
2 with an H? You may need to come closer to it or it may need to be brought
3 closer to you.
4 A. With an H?
5 Q. So that for the record because this doesn't look like -- very much
6 like an H, the witness has marked on the road just below where it is
7 written Orize, with a red H.
8 Now, you said you escaped to your brother's house which was close
9 to the mountains in the village of Jahoc so that would be I take it
10 further away from --
11 A. The house of my godfather.
12 Q. Sorry, your godfather. Can you identify it first on the map and
13 mark it with a G?
14 A. Right here is the house of my godfather. Do I need to place a G
16 Q. Please. Make sure you know where it is first before you write it.
17 Okay. That --
18 A. It's at the entrance of the village at the bridge. This is --
19 this is my house and a further 50 metres away is my godfather's house.
20 Q. For the record he puts another mark, a G, just beside the J in
21 Jahoc. I'd like you to put a cross where the bridge was, where these
22 seven men were shot, a small cross.
23 A. This is where the bridge is.
24 Q. The witness has placed a mark below the -- beside the word Orize
25 in brackets, and the mark also touches on the O in Orize spelled O-r-i-z-e
1 now you said that while you were at your house, that is your house which
2 adjoins the road, you saw a huge crowd coming from Guske and Korenica
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you mark along the road where you saw this huge crowd
6 travelling? Identify it first and then mark it.
7 A. Guske is here, Korenica is here, and the people of the Guske
8 village were all gathered together and they were being escorted by police
9 towards Korenica and the road is here. And when they came in this
10 direction where I put my hand, and here, they were stopped by the police
12 JUDGE BONOMY: This exercise doesn't help us because we don't see
13 what he's indicating.
14 MR. STAMP: I'm trying to take it step by step but the witness
15 needs to identify exactly where it is before he marks. So it's his mental
16 process, I think, of identifying where it is. I'm about to invite him to
18 Q. Mark, please, for me where it is, this large crowd moving from
19 a -- Guske and Korenica villages were travelling and put an arrow in the
20 direction that they were going to, if you could just draw a line along the
22 A. They come along this road. They came along this road, up to here,
23 and here they were stopped, all of them were stopped here.
24 Q. Could you put a circle at the point where they were stopped?
25 A. A circle.
1 Q. And that is where Guta placed his car, across the road?
2 A. Yes, yes, exactly in that crossing.
3 Q. Thank you very much. You said also you saw people coming from
4 Junik towards Meja. Could you put a large circle around Junik? Can you
5 see Junik on that map?
6 A. Yes. That's where Junik is.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Please put a circle around
8 the Junik and draw a line with an arrow along the road that they were
9 travelling on, please. An arrow pointing in the direction that they were
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. When you saw the people along that road, where did you see them?
13 Where were they?
14 A. All these villages, more than 20 villages, the population of these
15 villages were all gathered along this road.
16 Q. Could you mark it?
17 A. Up to the entrance to my house.
18 Q. Could you mark a line all along the road passing all of those
19 villages where you say the population were forced to walk? Could you mark
20 the entire route that you're speaking of on the map?
21 A. The population of all these villages were gathered and walked
22 along this road which I've marked and they stopped here.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, where is this on the statement?
24 MR. STAMP: On the English copy at page 4. It's in the first
25 paragraph, that paragraph begins on the preceding page.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I see we've gone back. Sorry, yeah. Thank you.
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. And you're saying that the population of all the villages along
4 where you just marked were expelled and were moving past your home?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The area that we are talking about, is that the area normally
7 referred to as the Carragojs valley?
8 A. Yes, that's how we call it?
9 Q. That, Your Honour is indictment 72 subparagraph H 2?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
11 MR. STAMP: That will be the examination-in-chief, may it please,
12 Your Honour. I'm sorry, most importantly could we save a snapshot of that
13 before it's moved and could it be given an exhibit number?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Mr. Sabbah I think you should say what the
15 number is in this instance. It's P35 and we add what? IC?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes Your Honour, that will be Exhibit IC3.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sabbah, what time remains?
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Because of the way in which the afternoon has been
22 divided up there is not going to be time to engage in cross-examination
23 this afternoon. And it's a suitable place to adjourn.
24 Mr. O'Sullivan, you could perhaps indicate to me the order in
25 which you anticipate the cross-examination.
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, Your Honour. The order will be counsel for
2 Ojdanic, Lukic, Pavkovic, Lazarevic, Milutinovic, and Sainovic.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 Mr. Pnishi, that brings the proceedings here to an end for today.
5 You will have to return, though, tomorrow morning to continue with your
6 evidence -- could we have some quiet in the courtroom, please?
7 You will require to return to continue your evidence and that will
8 be at 9.00 tomorrow morning. You should be here in good time ready to
9 resume your evidence at 9.00.
10 Meanwhile, over night, it's very important that you have no
11 discussion with anyone at all about your evidence. That's either the
12 evidence you have already given or the evidence that you may yet give
13 tomorrow. Do you understand that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 The Court is now adjourned until 9.00 a.m. tomorrow.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.00 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of August,
19 2006, at 9.00 a.m.