1 Thursday, 31 August 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Gerxhaliu.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour, and
8 ladies and gentlemen.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: The cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic will continue
10 in a moment. The -- I just remind you, as I did yesterday morning, that
11 the solemn declaration which you took at the very beginning of your
12 evidence on Monday continues to apply to your evidence today.
13 Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 WITNESS: SHUKRI GERXHALIU [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
18 Q. Dr. Gerxhaliu, I'd like to continue with the line of questioning
19 that we'd started yesterday, and I'd like to direct your attention right
20 now to the events you describe at paragraphs 28 through 31 of your written
21 statement regarding the events of the 31st of May, 1999. Is it accurate
22 to state that you never actually saw the persons who came to your cousin's
23 house on that day, the armed persons who came to the house on that day?
24 A. That is correct, yes. I did not see them leaving, and this is
25 what I stated in my statement.
1 Q. The translation I received says: "I did not see them leaving."
2 Is it also correct that you did not see them arrive either, that you did
3 not see them with your own eyes at any time?
4 A. I was in the room, lying down, and when they called my wife, they
5 addressed her in Serbo-Croatian, said to her: Come here. And she came to
6 me, informed me, and I fled in the opposite direction and I did not turn
7 my head back to look at them.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you for clearing that up for me. Now, when we talk
9 about the discovery and the identification of the bodies of your cousin
10 and your uncle, Seladin, Xhemajl and Shaban, is it correct to state that
11 it was actually the members -- the fighters of the UCK/KLA that first
12 found these three bodies?
13 A. The bodies were about one kilometre further. I do not know who
14 found them there, but what I know is that my father went there together
15 with two other persons and brought them for burial. And I measured the
16 distance. The bodies were found at exactly one kilometre distance from
17 Seladin's house.
18 Q. And isn't it a fact that the bodies were found approximately 300
19 metres from a KLA check-point?
20 A. That is not correct because their bodies were, as I said, one
21 kilometre far from Seladin's house. My father and two other persons went
22 to pick them up, put them in a cart, and came back. And one of them then
23 entered the house and saw the other members of Seladin's family executed
24 inside the house.
25 Q. Okay. Now, your father, Sali Gerxhaliu, did he tell you that in
1 fact that he had encountered KLA fighters who had moved the bodies, the
2 three bodies?
3 A. They could have been moved. I don't know. I didn't see that
4 myself. I wasn't present there. However, I know that he brought them.
5 And, as I said earlier, I had to remain in hiding for some time.
6 Q. I'm not questioning that your father is the one who brought the
7 bodies back. I'm trying to establish your knowledge of the scene that
8 your father saw when he found the bodies with the KLA persons, and I'd
9 like to ask you another question in that regard. Do you have knowledge of
10 the fact that these KLA members had already collected the three bodies for
11 burial with other KLA fighters, that they believed that these three bodies
12 were of KLA fighters? Do you have any knowledge of that, sir?
13 A. The truth is that these three bodies were spotted for the first
14 time by some girls who came to inform us. They said to us: There are
15 three bodies there. My cousin, Xhema's son in fact, went to speak with
16 these girls and he informed us. And then my father went to pick up the
18 Now, if they were really KLA soldiers, then they would have been
19 in KLA uniforms. And the KLA would have picked them up. But the truth is
20 what I've already told you, and I can only confirm things that I know for
21 sure. I know that my father went there, took them in a cart, and brought
22 them to the house, together with these two other persons.
23 Q. Okay. Now, your father, Sali Gerxhaliu, I'd like to put something
24 forward to you, are you aware that your father executed a sworn statement
25 to the Office of the Prosecutor, wherein he described that, in fact, KLA
1 members had collected the bodies because they thought the victims were
2 also KLA? Do you have knowledge of that, sir?
3 A. I know that my father gave a statement and that my father
4 collected the bodies. And my father is a person who actually knew better
5 than KLA who these persons were. These were his cousins. And this should
6 be clear, that he went there to pick them up.
7 Q. The point I'm trying to reach, sir, is the fact that these three
8 bodies were dressed in civilian clothing, and yet the KLA mistook them for
9 KLA combatants. Does that in fact refresh your recollection as to whether
10 it was possible for KLA combatants in the area to dress as civilians or in
11 civilian clothing?
12 A. I already stated yesterday, and I will repeat it today, from the
13 moment they took up arms, the KLA soldiers were always dressed in uniforms
14 until they were demobilised when the NATO forces entered Kosova.
15 As for others who supported the KLA, they were KLA supporters,
16 indeed, but they were never armed and never wore a uniform. And please,
17 how can then someone carrying a weapon allow for someone else to come and
18 execute his entire family before his very eyes?
19 Q. Well, sir, I'm just trying to ascertain the facts pertaining to
20 this incident, and I want to ask you another question. When your father
21 brought the three bodies in the cart to the cemetery that day, isn't it a
22 fact that the KLA persons who were present at the cemetery directed him to
23 bring the nine other bodies as well, that is to say, isn't it a fact that
24 the KLA had been the first on the scene at the Gerxhaliu house where the
25 nine other bodies were located?
1 A. The KLA moved up and down, communicated with the brigade on the
2 other side of the railroad, on the other side of the Sitnica river, but
3 the fact is that two girls spotted these bodies the first and they heard
4 their execution --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: The question is: What happened at the cemetery?
6 Can you confine yourself to dealing with that question. Did the KLA
7 intervene to give directions about the nine other bodies at the cemetery?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only speak of things that I've
9 seen myself and what I've heard. My father told me that he collected the
10 bodies from the crime scene, brought them to the house --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, let's confine ourselves to the cemetery.
12 Your statement says clearly: "We loaded the bodies onto two carts and
13 took them to the family cemetery."
14 So it sounds from the statement as if you were at the cemetery; so
15 could you deal with that, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the first and the second time
17 that the police came from Vushtrri and issued a permission for the bodies
18 to be buried, that's when we collected the bodies.
19 On the second occasion, I went there together with my cousins. We
20 put them in a cart, and then brought them to the cemetery where the bodies
21 can be found even today. There there were no KLA except for family
22 members who attended the burial ceremony.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. What day was that that you went to the cemetery? Am I correct
25 that you did not go to the cemetery with your father with the three
1 original bodies, the three bodies of your cousin and your uncle and your
2 cousin's son?
3 A. For these three bodies, I already told you that it was my father
4 with two other persons who went to collect them. Then Sheribane went to
5 the police. And after they received this permission for their burial,
6 that's when we took the bodies for burial.
7 Q. Now, let me ask you a little bit about the process by which the
8 authorities were contacted. You had said hat there was some discussion
9 amongst the family members as to whether or not the police should be
10 contacted. I want to ask you another question. Was it the KLA that
11 encouraged you to contact the police to report these killings?
12 A. No, it wasn't. And the KLA was not involved in this. This was a
13 decision of the inhabitants who lived there in that neighbourhood around
14 Rashiq. There were people who would often go to the town to do shopping,
15 among them Sheribane that I mentioned, and she went to report the case.
16 Q. Can I ask you another question then. Were the police notified
17 upon the insistence of your father, Sali Gerxhaliu? Was he the moving
18 force for the notification to be made to the authorities?
19 A. All of us together, we all agreed that the Yugoslav police in
20 Vushtrri should be informed. This was a consensus reached by all of us.
21 Q. Okay. Now, if I could have you focus on the event when you said
22 that the -- that the authorities came out there, the police, and the court
23 personnel came out to do an investigation. Did you personally eye-witness
24 any of the activities of this investigative team on the 31st of May?
25 A. I have already mentioned it earlier, that I had no chance to
1 contact -- to have any contact with them when they came. So the first
2 time when they came with a team of this female doctor that I mentioned and
3 the other investigators, it is only my father who contacted with them.
4 They asked my father about me, and he told them that I was allegedly in
6 On the second occasion when they came to issue this permission for
7 the burial --
8 Q. Go ahead, you can -- I mean -- you can finish.
9 A. So after they issued this permission for the burial, I was kind of
10 certain that the police will not come back. And then I went back there to
11 help, and we collected all the bodies from the room, put them in a cart,
12 and took them to the cemetery for burial.
13 Q. What I'm trying to establish, sir, is all your information and
14 testimony where you talk about the persons who were present from this
15 investigative team and the actions they undertook, is all that information
16 and testimony second-hand, that is to say material that you found out
17 about from other persons?
18 A. The doctor, Natalia Tasi, asked my father about me. And I heard
19 from my father that they took photographs --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: It's so obvious, Mr. Ivetic, that that's the case.
21 You're losing perspective in this cross-examination.
22 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I should advise everyone that as of the end of this
24 week we are going to have to reconsider how things are progressing
25 time-wise in this trial and look at what the prospects are of conducting
1 it within a reasonable time. They're not looking good at the moment.
2 I would urge you to maintain perspective in your cross-examination
3 on what is really important.
4 MR. IVETIC: I will try to, Your Honour.
5 Q. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that on May 31st, 1999, there was a
6 battle between elements of the KLA and Serb forces in your village of
7 Donja Sudimlja?
8 A. This is the first time I heard about it. I never heard about this
9 thing before.
10 Q. Okay. Now, you talked earlier in your testimony - I believe it
11 was on Monday - that previously reported crimes had been ignored by the
12 authorities. Now, I found no reference to this in your statement apart
13 from the Prosecution's opening line of questioning. Could you please give
14 us details when and to whom did you report previous alleged crimes that
15 were not investigated by the authorities?
16 A. Previous alleged crimes that were not investigated by the
17 authorities, I can't give you any information about this because I arrived
18 in the village later -- before, two days, two.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are other witnesses who can
21 testify about other crimes. I can only testify about the things that I
22 know. I know that there are witnesses who testified to crimes that were
23 committed on 14th of May and so on.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Okay. Now we've established you do not have direct knowledge of
1 that. If I can return you just for a couple of questions and then we'll
2 be finished. I'd like to clear up a few points relating to the night of
3 May the 2nd, 1999, that we had discussed previously.
4 Now, first of all, you already told us that with respect to the
5 first group of armed men that approached the convoy at 5.00 p.m. in the
6 evening, that apart from the colour of their uniforms it was impossible
7 for you to distinguish any emblems or insignia on the uniforms. I would
8 like to ask you a question with respect to the subsequent groups of armed
9 men. Would the same be true for those subsequent groups of armed men that
10 came later that night, that is to say that you could not identify any
11 emblems or insignia on the uniforms?
12 A. I have never given a statement of this kind. What happened
13 happened on the 2nd of May. On the 3rd of May, they returned. I heard
14 that the KLA forces took positions, and the burial --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Is the answer -- is the simple answer that you
16 can't -- sorry, that you could not identify any emblems or insignia on any
17 of the groups that approached on the 2nd of May after 5.00 p.m.?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Okay --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I heard yes in Albanian, but it hasn't been
23 translated but it was --
24 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I heard "po" as well, so -- and I'm sure the
25 transcript will reflect that later on. Thank you.
1 Q. Sir, we talked about just -- by just one question about the
2 vehicles that came at 11.45 p.m. Yesterday you said that you could not
3 see the colour of these vehicles. How is it that you knew or assumed that
4 these vehicles -- that two of these vehicles were police vehicles?
5 A. There was moonlight. It is true that you cannot distinguish
6 colours clearly at night. But I knew the shape of the Zastava 101 make
7 vehicles, I knew the shape and form of the APCs and Pinzgauers and other
8 vehicles used by the police and army. They were all together in the same
10 Q. You had not seen these police vehicles prior -- on -- earlier that
11 day, had you?
12 A. Of course. I was like half hidden and I couldn't see them
14 Q. Okay. Well, let me just ask you -- I have two final questions on
15 a final topic, sir, regarding the period when you left Kosovo-Metohija.
16 First of all, can you confirm for us that you did not ultimately
17 leave the province due to any orders given by anyone, but rather you and
18 your relatives arranged, through another relative, to have a bus evacuate
19 you from Kosovo-Metohija. Is that accurate?
20 A. That's accurate. I was afraid what would happen to my family
21 since Seladin's family became a sacrifice. So that was an issue of to be
22 or not to be.
23 Q. Okay. And could you also confirm for us that your family sought
24 refuge in Serbia and Montenegro and remained there until the NATO forces
25 entered Kosovo-Metohija and then you returned home?
1 A. Yes, in Ulqin.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Marcussen.
7 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you, Your Honour. Maybe we could prepare
8 exhibit -- Defence Exhibit 3D63 while I start with my first question so we
9 have it ready.
10 Re-examination by Mr. Marcussen:
11 Q. Dr. Gerxhaliu, Mr. Ivetic just asked you about whether or not you
12 saw the policemen that came in the direction of your house on the 31st of
13 May, and you said you did not. At the time, did your wife say that the
14 police was coming?
15 A. Yes. My wife had seen them coming, and she spoke with them. They
16 called her, told her: Come here. And they also called on Florie, my
17 wife's cousin.
18 Q. Thank you, Dr. Gerxhaliu. Just to clear that one point.
19 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we see the exhibit that I just mentioned,
21 Q. Dr. Gerxhaliu --
22 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we zoom in on the third paragraph on this
24 Q. Somewhere in the third paragraph there's mention of a school. Can
25 you see that?
1 A. Where?
2 Q. I think in the third paragraph. It should probably be
3 approximately on the middle of the screen somewhere. It's in Cyrillic so
4 I cannot fully assist.
5 A. It's in Cyrillic, yes, yes.
6 Q. And you can see "school." Do you know what school is mentioned in
7 this text?
8 A. Let me read the paragraph, please.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. The third paragraph, right?
11 Q. In --
12 A. Or the second?
13 Q. In the English version it looks like it's the third, but maybe
14 it's the second in reality. Can you see the word "school"?
15 Oh yeah, I can -- if it can help I can see a number that I can
16 understand. It says M61/557, and a little further on in that sentence
17 probably the reference to the school would be. So it looks like it's
18 actually the second paragraph.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: On this document it's 618-557.
20 MR. MARCUSSEN: That's correct. I'm -- so it's the end of the
21 second paragraph probably.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it. So around 11.35
23 hours between the villages of Gornja and Donja Sudimlja fire was opened at
24 an official vehicle -- yes, yes, I found it. Registration plate
25 number 16 -- I think it's a primary school there.
1 MR. MARCUSSEN:
2 Q. Now, if you are coming from Vucitrn and moving in the direction of
3 your house, could you describe where the school is, please?
4 A. If you go from the direction of Vushtrri, the school is about half
5 kilometre far from the place where the three bodies of Seladin, Xhemajl,
6 and the other person were found. The direction of Studime e Eperme.
7 Q. So on the other side, further away. Is that correct?
8 A. So, yes, further away in the direction of Studime e Eperme. It's
9 about two kilometres from my house, between one and a half and two
10 kilometres from my house.
11 Q. Thank you, Dr. Gerxhaliu.
12 MR. MARCUSSEN: Next I'd like if we could see Exhibit 3D70,
14 It appears, Your Honours, that that document is not in e-court. I
15 have to say I don't remember whether a hard copy was handed around
16 yesterday, but that's probably the case.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: No, it wasn't.
18 MR. MARCUSSEN: Well, in the interest of time, I think we should
19 just move on.
20 Q. Sorry about that, Mr. Gerxhaliu --
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Oh, here we have it, but we only have an English
22 translation of the document. Do we have the B/C/S version? There we
23 have. Thank you.
24 Q. Dr. Gerxhaliu --
25 MR. MARCUSSEN: Could we look at the first paragraph. I'll just
1 get my copy out again.
2 Q. In the -- the last sentence says in the English version: "In the
3 area of Bajgora village and the Shala district were members of -- were
4 members of Siptar terrorists of this -- sorry, Siptar terrorist gang
5 launched a fierce attack launching all kinds of weapons against members of
6 the PJP ..." And so on.
7 Now, Bajgora and Shala district, is that the area where the Serb
8 forces had broken through the KLA lines on the 2nd of May?
9 A. Yes, that's where the KLA line was broken through, and it fell on
10 the 2nd of May.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now last I'd like to show about a minute
12 and a half of Exhibit P4 that we saw some parts of yesterday on the
13 monitor. And, Dr. Gerxhaliu, we're just going to let the film run, and
14 then I have two questions about what is seen on the picture.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you.
17 Q. Dr. Gerxhaliu, in the first part of what we saw showed a number of
18 bodies on the ground. Yesterday you were asked from the same video to
19 identify whether a number of people were maybe KLA fighters. Now, on the
20 short sequence we just saw, did any of the people on the ground resemble
21 the KLA fighters that you had been seeing at the military hospital you
22 were working at?
23 A. No. They were all civilians. As you could see for yourselves,
24 they had no uniforms on. Some of them were my cousins. They were
25 executed at short distance. They were beaten, maltreated. This film was
1 made on the 13th when -- the 3rd --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when the burial took place.
4 MR. MARCUSSEN:
5 Q. And that probably answered my second question, which was: The
6 graves we saw, are they the graves where you were attending the burials of
7 the victims of the 2nd of May?
8 A. The burial began on the 3rd of May, the next day.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you, Dr. Gerxhaliu. I
10 am --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Marcussen, is there a way of identifying
12 the passage of film that you've shown?
13 MR. MARCUSSEN: Yes, it was -- I'm sorry. It was 16 minutes --
14 from 16 minutes, 15 seconds to 18 minutes.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 MR. MARCUSSEN: And I believe that yesterday my colleague did not
17 enter P4 into evidence. I would like to tender that at this point so it's
18 on record.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it becomes part of the evidence insofar as
20 it's used, so it has in fact entered evidence already.
21 MR. MARCUSSEN: Thank you. Your Honour, I don't have any further
22 questions to this witness. I do have some housekeeping matters relating
23 to the evidence of the witness, but my questioning is over. So maybe Your
24 Honours have some questions, otherwise I can deal with the housekeeping
25 matters. Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: What are the housekeeping matters?
4 MR. MARCUSSEN: It's basically just some references to documents
5 that have been incomplete, and I thought we should maybe mention the
6 Prosecution's identification number of the photographs so it's clear on
7 the record what it was we talked about yesterday when the Bench saw some
8 photographs. Maybe I --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, they didn't -- they weren't entered. They
10 certainly are not part of the process.
11 MR. MARCUSSEN: Certainly not. Maybe I am paranoid after having
12 been in -- working in the appeals section of the Office of the Prosecutor.
13 But often when we look at transcripts, later on issues arise as to what
14 had been looked at in court, so that was the only purpose of mentioning
16 JUDGE BONOMY: No, you were invited if was there any issue on this
17 to reach some agreement with the Defence about how you might deal with it
18 or address it yourself if it is an issue. But there was -- as I
19 understood the position, there was no issue over the identification of 12
20 victims. That was confirmed by Mr. Visnjic yesterday, and therefore I see
21 no need to complicate the process with the photographs. We've seen them,
22 but they don't need to be introduced for that -- for identification
24 MR. MARCUSSEN: I'm certainly not suggesting they should be part
25 of the evidence, of course.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we don't need to deal with that.
2 MR. MARCUSSEN: Okay. Then maybe I could just do one thing to
3 make the record complete in one regard. My colleague Mr. Visnjic at
4 page 2.560, line 22, referred to a statement. The number there should be
5 K0016 -- excuse me 8614, just where that is complete. The rest we can
6 take note of in different ways. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a document which is not an exhibit. Is that
9 MR. MARCUSSEN: That is correct. But, again, the thought is the
10 same. We need maybe in future to find out what it is they have been
11 talking about in -- during court.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Dr. Gerxhaliu, that completes your evidence. Thank
13 you for coming again to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well, Your Honours.
16 And I hereby send you the regards of my co-villagers as well.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, I gather you have two matters to raise
19 with us?
20 MR. HANNIS: I do, Your Honour. First of all, the first matter
21 relates to the next witness who has previously been referred to as
22 Witness K13. Protective measures had been granted originally in the
23 Milosevic case, IT-02-54, on the 22nd of March, 2002, in which he was
24 granted the pseudonym of K13 and facial distortion for testimony.
25 In the passage of time, Your Honour, this witness has relocated.
1 He's older now, he's 17 and a half years old, and we've discussed the
2 matter with him. In the present circumstances, he no longer desires nor
3 do we think it's necessary that he have protective measures, and we
4 propose that he testify openly, under his true name, and without any other
5 protective measures. And we would like to request that those prior
6 measures be withdrawn.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, that's an application, Mr. Hannis, which will
8 be under Rule 75(G) to us as the second -- the Chamber dealing with the
9 second proceedings in a situation where no Chamber remains seized of the
10 first proceedings?
11 MR. HANNIS: That's correct.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: So we have a free hand?
13 MR. HANNIS: That's my understanding of the rule, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. And -- yeah, well, let's deal with that
15 first of all.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in light of what you have said, Mr. Hannis,
18 this Trial Chamber will now rescind all existing protective measures in
19 relation to this witness, and that gives any future Trial Chamber an
20 absolutely free hand should it be necessary to consider protective
21 measures at any later stage.
22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now give me the name of the witness, please.
24 MR. HANNIS: His first name is Dren, D, as in David, r-e-n.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
1 MR. HANNIS: And his last name is Caka, C-a-k-a.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: And this is a witness who will give live testimony?
3 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: And who will lead that testimony?
5 MR. HANNIS: I will lead that witness, Your Honour. And his
6 testimony relates to pargarphs 72(h), 73, 74, 75(g), and Schedule G of the
7 indictment relating to killings at the Milos Gilic Street in Djakovo on
8 the 2nd of April.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And your second application?
10 MR. HANNIS: The second application, Your Honour, refers to a
11 witness Bajram Bucaliu who was scheduled to be the fourth witness, or the
12 third witness after this one, and we don't anticipate we will get to him
13 until next week. He is from Urosevac, Ferizaj municipality. We had
14 originally proposed him as a live witness. Upon proofing him yesterday
15 morning, we determined that it might be most efficient to proceed by using
16 him as a 92 bis (D) witness. He testified at greater length than the
17 average crime base witness in the Milosevic trial, and his testimony
18 covers practically everything I would have asked him if we had proceeded
20 We notified the Defence of that by e-mail that that's what we were
21 proposing to do. Rule 92 bis (E) I believe, Your Honour, requires us to
22 make the application 14 days in advance and allows the Defence seven days
23 in which to respond. However, Rule 127 permits Your Honours to shorten
24 the time-period, if you think there's good cause shown or if it's in the
25 interests of justice. We would indicate to you that we think this
1 evidence is appropriate for 92 bis (D) --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: You're assuming cross-examination?
3 MR. HANNIS: Yes, yes.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's see what the Defence position is.
5 Mr. O'Sullivan, is there a joint position on this?
6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I don't believe there's any opposition to this
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, so we can foreshorten the time -- the notice
9 and deal with this application just now?
10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you. Let's consider that then.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there being no opposition from any of the
14 accused, we shall waive the requirements of notice, the period of notice,
15 in this case, and we shall grant the application made by Mr. Hannis so
16 that the witness may give evidence as a witness tendered in terms of Rule
17 92 bis (D).
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I will ask him a few questions live, and
19 in particular there's one matter relating to the train log that he helped
20 keep as part of the transport of trains through the station, then I think
21 it will be helpful to have me asking a few questions about that.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: So his evidence, then, will in large part be
23 tendered in terms of 92 bis (D) and he will attend and be subject to
25 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
2 Now can we have your witness? Is he on the way?
3 MR. HANNIS: I'm told that he is now, yes.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Caka.
6 THE WITNESS: Hi, how are you.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you now make the solemn declaration by
8 reading aloud from the document which will now be placed in front of you.
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please be seated.
12 Are you intending to give evidence in English?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Well, you're going to be asked
15 questions by a number of counsel representing, first of all, the
16 Prosecution and then representing each of the accused. The important
17 thing for us is that you listen very closely and carefully to the question
18 and you answer the question that's put to you. Sometimes that can appear
19 to be difficult because you want -- you may want to tell an account of
20 something, but the way we deal with it in the system that we follow here
21 is to allow each of the counsel to identify what it is they want you to
22 tell us about. If we feel we need to -- if we feel we need to know more,
23 we will ask you more questions at the end. But it will help us all if you
24 try to confine your answers to the particular point that you're asked
25 about. Now, please try your best to do that. The first counsel to ask
1 questions will be for the Prosecution, Mr. Hannis.
2 Mr. Hannis.
3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 WITNESS: DREN CAKA
5 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
6 Q. Good afternoon. Could you tell us your name, please.
7 A. My name is Dren.
8 Q. And your last name?
9 A. Caka.
10 Q. Could you spell both those names for us, please.
11 A. First name is D-r-e-n, last name is C-a-k-a.
12 Q. And since you're testifying in English today and I'm speaking
13 English, I would ask you to try and have a pause between the end of my
14 question and the beginning of your answer, so the interpreters can keep up
15 with us as they're translating into the other three languages that are
16 being used, okay?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. How old are you?
19 A. I'm 17 and will be 18 on December 6.
20 Q. And where were you born?
21 A. Gjakove.
22 Q. And you speak English now. Do you also speak Albanian?
23 A. I speak Albanian fluently, too.
24 Q. What is your ethnicity?
25 A. I -- sorry, I couldn't understand.
1 Q. Are you Albanian by birth?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And from the time you were born until 1999, where did you live?
4 A. I lived in Gjakove.
5 Q. In March 1999 then, by my math, you would have been 10 years old,
6 10 and a half?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Who did you live with at that time?
9 A. After the incident happen?
10 Q. Up until April of 1999, who did you live with?
11 A. I lived with my grandfather, my grandmother, my parents and uncle.
12 Q. Could you give us their names, please. Grandma and grandpa first.
13 A. Grandma is Xhemajla Caka -- sorry, Nakije Caka; grandfather is
14 Xhemil Caka; my uncle's name is Nehat Caka; my dad's name is Ali Caka; my
15 mother's name is Valbona Caka; and my sisters' name is Dalina Caka,
16 Delvina Caka, Diona Caka.
17 Q. How old were your sisters in March of 1999?
18 A. 14, 6, and 2.
19 Q. Do you recall where in Gjakove your family lived?
20 A. I can say the old name, but I don't know the new street name.
21 Q. Okay. Tell us the old street name.
22 A. Millosh Giliq.
23 Q. Now, do you recall a pool hall on Millosh Giliq street?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Whose pool hall was that?
1 A. That was Luli Vejsa's.
2 Q. How far from there did you live approximately?
3 A. Two houses away.
4 Q. I would next like to show you an exhibit, P275, please.
5 In a moment, Mr. Caka, a photograph -- an aerial photograph will
6 come up on your screen. And my first question for you about that will be
7 if you recognise the area that's in that picture, yes or no.
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Okay. And what is that area?
10 A. This is -- it was my street and my house, I can see my house, and
11 the house the incident happened in.
12 Q. In a minute I'll have the usher hand you a pen that's attached to
13 the monitor with which you can actually touch the screen and draw on it.
14 First of all, could you draw a circle around the pool hall that
15 you mentioned and put a P inside the circle.
16 A. [Marks].
17 Q. Thank you. Now, did Luli Vejsa have a house nearby?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you draw a circle around the house and put an H inside it for
20 his house.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Do you see on that photo the house where your family lived?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Can you draw a circle around that? And put a C in it.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. All right. Did you know any of your other neighbours?
2 A. No -- well, I know who they are but I can't think of it right now.
3 Q. Okay. Was there a policeman that lived in your neighbourhood?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you see his house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you draw a circle around it?
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. All right. And could you put POL inside that circle for us.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just --
13 MR. HANNIS: Can we have a screen shot of that and mark that as --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one second before you do.
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: The one that's marked H, did you mean to circle
17 only the part which appears to have been destroyed or at least which does
18 not have a roof, or do you mean to take in the parts which are at the
19 street and which do appear to have a roof?
20 THE WITNESS: On the H is just the roof the house that the
21 incident happened in. The whole house, that's -- you mean the whole --
22 like, with a yard and everything is just a big circle, but only the house
23 is the H.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but does that house extend out to the street
25 where the car -- where the vehicle is?
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine. Thank you.
3 Mr. Hannis.
4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
5 Could we give that the next IC number?
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this picture will become
8 Exhibit IC24.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Caka, I would to ask you, do you recall when the NATO
12 bombing started? Were you aware of that?
13 A. I don't know, I'm sorry.
14 Q. Do you recall the night of April 1st and early morning of
15 April 2nd, 1999?
16 A. Yeah, that's the night that it happened.
17 Q. On that date, where were you and your family staying?
18 A. In a basement underneath the pool hall.
19 Q. And how long had you been staying there at that time, if you
21 A. On that day or the whole time that I went there?
22 Q. Before that day, had you been staying there for some period of
24 A. We had been staying there about four or five days.
25 Q. And why were you staying at that location?
1 A. Because we thought if -- in case of any bombings it would be a
2 safer place to stay.
3 Q. Were you aware of any -- any disturbances or problems in your
4 immediate neighbourhood the day or two before the incident that you have
5 been talking about?
6 A. Yeah, about a day or two before I was playing with my sister in my
7 own house, we were playing just marbles, and a police officer came by the
8 house and he told us to get inside. And that's the only thing that
10 Q. Okay. In the basement -- who was staying in the basement, how
11 many people, if you know?
12 A. 20 people. I was the 21st person.
13 Q. Any men in this group of 21?
14 A. Yeah, there was a man, but he was about 60, so he was an old man.
15 Q. And how about the rest of the group besides him and you?
16 A. It was just women and children.
17 Q. And the basement, did you have any idea of how big it was?
18 A. I would say about half of the size of this room.
19 Q. Okay. Was it one big room or were there separate rooms that you
20 stayed in?
21 A. It was just one big room.
22 Q. Where were your father and uncle and the other men related to
23 these families staying while you all were staying in the basement?
24 A. They were staying in the same property as us. They were keeping
25 guard because the police officers, they would say -- they said they were
1 mostly looking for men; they wouldn't harm women and children.
2 Q. So on the night of April 1st and April 2nd, what men related to
3 your family and the other people staying there were on the property
4 elsewhere, if you know?
5 A. After they left?
6 Q. No. When you went to -- well, what time did you all go down to
7 the basement on that night?
8 A. Just early afternoon, like early evening.
9 Q. Okay. And do you know if the men were still around on the
11 A. They would stay up all night. They would take turns on getting
12 some rest, but there was always somebody up to keep guard.
13 Q. Do you recall what time you went to sleep that night?
14 A. I was given sleeping pills so I can sleep, and I would say
15 about 11.45 I was about asleep, 11.45 to 12.00. I'm not exactly too sure.
16 Q. Okay. When did you wake up or when were you woken up?
17 A. I was woken up about 2.00 in the morning, around that.
18 Q. And how did that happen? Who woke you up?
19 A. My mom woke me up.
20 Q. What did she say?
21 A. She said: Wake up, police officers are here.
22 Q. Okay. What happened then?
23 A. We tried to keep quiet, and we heard kind of a loud noise, but we
24 didn't know what it was. And the door opened up and there was Serbian
25 police officers and they told us: Get out. They were talking mostly
1 Serbian but they were also talking Albanian. They were saying: Are you
2 with the UCK, the KLA, Kosovo Liberation Army, and we said: No, we're
3 just trying to be safe.
4 Q. Okay. Let me slow you down a minute. In the basement were
5 there -- was the basement below ground level or were there any windows
6 that you could see out of?
7 A. There was only two windows on the side facing towards the house
8 and we had them boarded shut so you can't see in or see out.
9 Q. And how many entrances or exits to the basement were there?
10 A. Only one.
11 Q. Okay. When your mom woke you up, was the door open or shut?
12 A. No, it was shut.
13 Q. Was it locked?
14 A. It wasn't locked.
15 Q. Okay. And how was it that the police came in? Did they knock?
16 A. They just opened it. They didn't knock; they just opened it.
17 Q. Now, you said they were speaking some in Serbian and some in
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Did anyone in your group understand Serbian?
21 A. Well, quite a lot of -- my mom, she understood it, but not really
22 a lot. But there was a -- like Dushi, she understand Serbian quite well,
23 and -- but I didn't have time to ask her what they were saying and also I
24 was too young, and I don't think she would have given me an answer. But
25 what they said in Albanian, that I can understand.
1 Q. What do you recall being said in Albanian?
2 A. Are you guys with UCK? And we said: No, we're just trying to be
3 safe. Like, please leave us alone.
4 Q. How many men were there?
5 A. There was -- in the beginning there was about six, but in the end
6 there was only three I could see.
7 Q. And do you recall how they were dressed?
8 A. They were dressed in police uniforms, dark blue.
9 Q. Okay. Was it a solid colour or some kind of pattern?
10 A. It was -- it was patterned. It wasn't just blue. It was blue and
12 Q. Okay. Had you seen these kind of uniforms before?
13 A. Yeah, I've seen them.
14 Q. And where had you seen them before?
15 A. You see policemen, if they pull you over if you're driving, or if
16 you see policemen pull somebody else over, you see them out of their car
17 and you always see the uniforms.
18 Q. Okay. Where did you all go from the basement?
19 A. Into the house.
20 Q. And that was whose house?
21 A. That was Luli's house.
22 Q. The one that you marked with an H on the photograph we saw before?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did all six of the policemen come with you?
25 A. No. Two -- well, three, sorry, were at the door where the car was
1 on fire. And as soon as we got up into the front porch they -- they
2 walked away. I couldn't see them anymore. Because I turned my head for
3 only a slight second. I looked back. They were gone. But there was only
4 three there.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. HANNIS: I think I'd like to have IC24 put up again to ask a
7 couple more questions.
8 Q. On the -- on the way from the basement to the house, was there any
9 conversation that you could understand?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Did these men have any weapons?
12 A. Yeah, they were heavily armed.
13 Q. Each one of them have some sort of weapon?
14 A. Yeah. They had machine-guns, AK-47s, and secondary guns, just
15 normal hand-guns.
16 Q. Okay. In the -- the photograph that you marked before, I have a
17 question for you. You mentioned there was a car burning. Whose car was
18 that and where was it located?
19 A. That was Behar's car.
20 Q. And was it on the street?
21 A. No. It was against the door of -- the front entrance door to the
23 Q. Are you talking about the front entrance house to the building or
24 to the courtyard?
25 A. To the yard. Like, where you go on the property.
1 Q. Okay. Could you take the pen again.
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. And if you could, with a small circle perhaps, draw and put in an
4 A for automobile where the burning car was.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And the gate to the property --
7 A. Right below it.
8 Q. It was right below.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. Thank you. Now, what kind of gate was that, if you recall?
11 A. It was -- it was a steel gate, like steel -- it was doors but they
12 were steel.
13 Q. Okay. And the car was parked behind it?
14 A. Yeah, closing them shut.
15 Q. All right. Between the basement and the house when you were
16 walking, in addition to the burning car, was there any other source of
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. Thank you.
20 MR. HANNIS: I don't need that any further at this time. I guess
21 I need to mark this as the next IC number because we've added to it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be Exhibit IC25.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
25 Q. What happened when you got to Luli's house?
1 A. Well, on our way there from the basement we first entered the
2 door. They -- Luli is younger. The third daughter, she goes to open the
3 door, and one police officer fired because the door was shut and missed
4 her and we went inside the house. They sat us all around into the
5 living-room. And some people were out in the hallway. About three or
6 four, I'm not too sure, were in the hallway. And in the living-room, we
7 were just sitting there, talking, and Flaka gets up to make tea. And --
8 Q. Let me stop you for a minute there. I'm going to ask you a couple
9 more questions and then show you a diagram.
10 Among this group of six policemen, did you recognise any of them?
11 A. I think one kind of looked like my -- the neighbour, the police
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. But he was kind of hiding his face and he didn't come inside the
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. HANNIS: Could we have Exhibit P2279, please.
18 Q. Mr. Caka, before today in the past when talking about this event,
19 at one time were you given a diagram of the floor plan of the house where
20 this occurred?
21 A. [No verbal answer].
22 Q. Were you shown one and asked to make a drawing on it?
23 A. Oh, yes.
24 Q. Okay. And do you have something up on the screen now in front of
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recognise what that is?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. What is it?
5 A. It's a picture of the rooms in the house and the porch and
6 everything -- how it was in the house.
7 Q. Okay. I see your name at the bottom and a date. Did you write
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. All right. And in the diagram, we see what appears to be four
11 rooms and a bathroom. Is that how the house was at that time?
12 A. Yeah, that's correct.
13 Q. And I see --
14 MR. HANNIS: I don't know if we can enlarge a little bit the lower
15 two-thirds of that exhibit to get a better look at the numbers in the
16 rooms. Okay. That's better. Thank you.
17 Q. And I don't know how big that is on your screen, Mr. Caka, but can
18 you see -- there are some circles with the letter A and B beside them and
19 some dots with the numbers -- it appears to be 1 through 10. Did you make
20 those markings?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell the Judges what those are -- first of all, let me ask
23 you about the circle and the -- and the letter A on what appears to be the
24 front step area. Who is that or what is that?
25 A. That was a police officer.
1 Q. Okay. And B?
2 A. Also a police officer.
3 Q. And inside the room in the lower right corner in the doorway that
4 appears to be another circle. Who or what does that represent?
5 A. The letter B going to the room.
6 Q. Okay. And so that's the same policeman moving from the front to
7 the --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- to the room?
10 A. Yeah. But there was also one but I didn't see where he was
11 outside so I've never marked that.
12 Q. Okay. So there was a third one in or around the house at that
14 A. I think he was on the bottom right corner, close to the window,
15 because shots were fired through the window, too.
16 Q. All right. Now, can you tell us about the numbers one at a
17 time -- well, let me ask you this: Is it easier for you to tell us the
18 sequence of events and then go back and tell us what the numbers
19 represent, or is it easier to describe what the numbers represent and then
20 tell us what happened?
21 A. Either way it's fine with me.
22 Q. Okay. Why don't you tell us the sequence and then we can talk
23 about the numbers, or maybe we can do it at the same time as you go along.
24 What happened once you got inside?
25 A. Inside the house?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Well, they walked us in the living-room, and there was a couple,
3 three or four people, I'm not so sure, in the hallway, because it's been
4 such a long time now. And -- but I was in the room, I was behind Dushi, I
5 remember her name. Most other people I don't remember their name. It's
6 been quite a long time.
7 Q. And who was Dushi, was she a child or an adult?
8 A. No, she was about 47 years old at the time.
9 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
10 A. And they sat us down. We were just talking about, and Flaka
11 decides to go and make tea. And as she's walking, a police officer kind
12 of like pushes her and fires and she's gone. And her mom, around the
13 corner of the door, ran out and she -- she was gone too. And also then --
14 Q. When you say "she was gone," what do you mean?
15 A. Like, she got shot, too, right after her daughter.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Then the -- where the number 2 is, that was Luli's wife and his
18 baby daughter. The baby daughter got shot first. Then Luli's wife
19 dropped the baby and then she got shot. Then afterwards it was my mother,
20 and she was changing my baby sister's diaper, and she got shot in the back
21 and fell right on top of my baby sister.
22 And then afterwards they shot all the way at the bottom right
23 corner. Arlind was there, and my sister was there, my older sister. And
24 after that they fired at the closet which started to burn the house on
25 fire. And it was all -- it was smoking, and my sister passed me her
1 glove, and she said: Here, take this. Like, before -- because my other
2 sister was nearby -- but then I don't know, she kind of ran away. It's
3 hard. I really have to think about it, but right now at the moment I
4 don't really remember it quite well.
5 And in the hallway, I don't know which one got shot first, I don't
6 know which one got shot afterwards, I don't know, because I wasn't there
7 to see. But after, in the end, I decided to get up. And Arlind, Luli's
8 son, was still breathing but I can tell that he's been shot a lot of
9 times, and I tried to go over there and try to help him. As soon as I
10 spoke one word, then there was no more breathing.
11 Then from there I went across to try to help my baby sister
12 because she hasn't gotten shot, but my mom was a little bit heavy, and
13 my -- I only had my bad arm because my right arm, I was shot, and it was
14 broken, so there's nothing I could do. And from there I took off my
15 jacket, I went in the hallway, and I lied down, pretended like I was dead
16 there too. And for about two, three minutes, from there, from there I
17 went into the room where -- it was Luli's bedroom. I went there and lied
18 down. The windows were open, so I could breathe a little bit. So I
19 stayed there about five or six minutes, I'm not too sure. And from then I
20 jumped over the window.
21 When I jumped over the window, I went all the way to the top left
22 corner because there's a door there, as you can see. And --
23 Q. Is that a door?
24 A. Yeah, that's a door.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. And I tried to make way through there, but I looked around the
2 house and I see -- I saw all those three police officers who were doing
3 this. They were there smoking. So I said: If I go this way they might
4 see me. And Luli had a pool hall, so there was a lot of cases of beer,
5 but the cases in our country are plastic. So I stacked them up and I
6 jumped over the wall where you can see the circle -- not bunch of circles
7 on top of the house, but the other circle, that's me jumping over the
8 wall. I went through this little road that's like on the side of the
9 house. I went to this place where they had firewood. And behind there
10 it's like a wall. We broke down so we can go through each other's houses
11 so we don't have to go through the main street.
12 I went through there. I went through a another wall, and then I
13 was in the second person's house before my house. And there was a lot of
14 wood there, too, but then it was like a whole wall -- like, not just a
15 circle, but like one side of the wall was all off, and I saw my aunt
16 there. And as soon as I saw my aunt, she kind of ran away. Maybe she
17 thought I was the police because she just saw me from the corner of her
18 eye, so I wasn't too sure. Then I was kind of yelling help. And she came
19 back and she's like: Hi, Dren? And I said, like: Yes. And she said:
20 What happened? And I said: Oh, everyone is gone. Everyone's dead. And
21 she said: No, I think you've had a bad dream. I said: No, I don't think
22 I've had a bad dream because it just happened right before my eyes.
23 Q. Let me stop you there, Mr. Caka, for a minute and go back and ask
24 you some more questions about the diagram.
25 You mentioned that Flaka was the first one to be shot?
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. How old was she, if you recall?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Was she an adult? Teenager?
5 A. I think about teenager.
6 Q. In the diagram, do you have a number for her?
7 A. It says number 1.
8 Q. And where were you sitting when the shooting started?
9 A. I was sitting right close to the window where -- it's a figure --
10 kind of looks like a person where his leg ends, the left leg.
11 Q. I see. All right. And could you see who was shooting?
12 A. Yeah, it was the man right by the door, and then also some shots
13 were fired through the window, but I couldn't see who was doing that.
14 Q. Were you yourself shot?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where did you get hit?
17 A. I got shot right in the arm, right arm.
18 Q. Did it -- did it go through your arm or hit the bone?
19 A. It hit the bone and it bounced right out.
20 Q. Okay. In the diagram on the left side, outside the house, there
21 are three circles. What does that represent?
22 A. Three circles, that's the police officers after I left the house.
23 That were smoking.
24 Q. Okay. And where was the dresser or the closet that you described
25 as igniting on fire? Where would that be in this diagram?
1 A. It's right beside the television, where it says "TV" on the bottom
3 Q. Okay. And you mentioned that your older sister handed you a scarf
4 or a glove?
5 A. A glove.
6 Q. What was that for?
7 A. So it can kind of help me breathe a bit better, so I don't have
8 direct smoke.
9 Q. All right. And number 2 you said was whom?
10 A. That was Luli's wife and her daughter.
11 Q. How old was the daughter, if you know?
12 A. I think she's -- was around the same age as my baby sister.
13 Q. Okay. Number 3?
14 A. Number 3, that was Flaka's mother that ran around because she was
15 on the other side of the door and then she was the second one that got
17 Q. Number 4 and number 5 in the corner?
18 A. Number 4 and number 5, that was Arlind, which is Luli's son, and
19 my sister.
20 Q. Number 6 and 7 in the other corner?
21 A. That was my mom and my other baby sister.
22 Q. How old was your baby sister?
23 A. My baby sister, she had turned 2 on April 1st, so ...
24 Q. You mention your mom was shot and fell on top of her?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But you believe she was still alive after --
2 A. Yeah, because I can hear her cry.
3 Q. You tried to help her?
4 A. I tried to help her. My mom was a little bit heavy, and also I
5 was 10 years old and my good arm wasn't in use, so ...
6 Q. Now, in the hallway 8 and 9?
7 A. That was Behar's wife and her son. They were kind of hugging and
8 they were both shot and they were dead.
9 Q. Number 10?
10 A. Number 10, that was Luli's mother.
11 Q. Okay. Now, there were 20 people in all besides yourself, correct,
12 but you didn't have a chance to see or don't know where they were?
13 A. Luli -- the first girl that opened the door at the beginning, when
14 they were taking us from basement, after they shot down the door she
15 wasn't hit because she ran away. And my other sister, I didn't see them.
16 Q. Can I --
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I very briefly interrupt, Mr. Hannis?
18 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Number 6 and 7 you took together but they are
20 actually some distance apart. Tell us again who number 6 and 7
22 THE WITNESS: My mom and my baby sister.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: So they are on opposite sides of the room, were
25 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. I believe 6 and 7 are in the
1 left-hand corner of the room. The number may have to be blown up better
2 to see it. But it's 4 and 5 in the right-hand corner, and in the
3 left-hand corner I think that's a 6 and a 7.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I now follow. Thank you.
5 MR. HANNIS:
6 Q. Now, before the cabinet or the closet caught on fire or was
7 ignited when it was shot, did -- were there any other sources of light
8 inside the house?
9 A. There was candlelight.
10 Q. Do you know when or how the candles had been lit, who lit the
12 A. Flaka's mother was lighting them.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I think that's all I have for this diagram.
14 I want to go then back to Exhibit P275, if we could have a clean
15 version of 275 again, I want to have you make some marks on this one for
16 us, if you would, Mr. Caka.
17 This is the aerial photograph of the neighbourhood. And you've
18 indicated to us where the house was. Could you use the pen on this
19 photograph to show us where you went when you left the house to where you
20 went and saw the police, and then where you reversed track and went toward
21 your aunt's house.
22 A. Well, that's my house, but my aunt was there at the time.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. First of all, I was in this room when everything happened.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. From there I exited, I lied down in the hall, and I stayed there
2 about four or five minutes. And then from there I went into the room, and
3 the windows were all open, so I stayed there probably about six, and the
4 other one, I think, I don't know, four, five, three, I'm not too sure.
5 And afterwards I exit out of this window, I jumped out of this window
6 right here. And after I jumped out of the window, I walked all across to
7 here, and then there was one, two, three police officers smoking there.
8 And I looked slightly on my left side, and I saw them there, and I
9 thought: Well, if I go through the door, they might see me. So I back
10 traced to about halfway, right here. I stacked the beer casings, and I
11 jumped over the wall that's there.
12 And then afterwards, I ran through, and there was an opening right
13 here. And then it kind of went like this but you can't see it from the
14 house. And there's the whole wall that was kind of not just a hole, it
15 was like the whole thing almost kind of broken. And then my aunt was on
16 this corner waiting for me.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. HANNIS: Could we give that an IC number, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit IC26.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, I would like to tender Exhibit 275
22 and IC24, 25, 26, and the diagram 2279.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, it's probably a good time to break off --
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: -- so that you can commence fresh --
1 MR. HANNIS: I will.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- after our break.
3 So we will break now and we'll resume at five minutes past 4.00.
4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Caka, you've explained to us how you got out of the house and
10 where you went, and you met your aunt outside your house. Can you tell us
11 briefly what happened after that. You had been shot in the arm and were
12 bleeding. What -- what did you and your aunt do then?
13 A. My aunt still didn't believe it, so the first room in the back we
14 call the fire room where we make stuff like food in the summer -- I mean
15 in the winter time. And I went through there. My aunt started walking a
16 little bit faster than me and I kind of, like, fainted. And she came
17 back, she says: Are you okay? I said: Oh, yes, I'm fine but I've lost a
18 lot of blood. I've been shot. She says: Quit saying that. You've only
19 had a bad dream.
20 And we went through, we passed by my uncle's room, and we went in
21 the kitchen, and my grandfather and my grandma and my uncle were there.
22 And they said: So what happened? I said: Oh, everyone's gone,
23 everyone's been shot dead, and I've been shot in the arm. My grandfather
24 is like: No, you haven't. I'm like: Take a look at my arm. Then he's
25 like: Oh, my God. And he cut it with a knife, cut my sleeves with a
1 knife and then tied my arm.
2 We went in the back to my uncle's room. I lied there. We were
3 only with candlelight, and every time we heard noises, we would just turn
4 off the candle. And it was like that all night. I tried to eat something
5 but I couldn't because the after-taste from all the smoke in the house is
6 not really good. And we stayed there all night.
7 And then in the morning my dad had came back -- well, my
8 grandfather and my aunt were taking me to the hospital. They put a
9 blanket around me, put me on my grandfather's bicycle, and they were
10 pushing me all the way to the hospital.
11 As I left, I told my dad, I'm like -- I gave him a hug and a kiss,
12 and he said that he would see me to the other side, to Albania, Tirana.
13 And I told him: Please come with me. He says: Oh, we're going on foot
14 and you're going to be driven there. So we left off, and as we were going
15 to the hospital, we ran into some police officers --
16 Q. Let me stop you there. Who took you to the hospital?
17 A. My grandfather and my aunt.
18 Q. And how did you go? On foot?
19 A. No, they put me on top of a bicycle and they were pushing me
21 Q. Okay. What happened when you got to the hospital?
22 A. So there was -- there was a Serbian soldier there, and he was --
23 he was a nice guy and he said: What happened? We have told him. My
24 grandfather said: He got hurt, he got shot. And he said: I'm so sorry
25 to hear this. He says: We're not the best kind of people. He says: We
1 shouldn't be hurting women and children. They have nothing to do with it.
2 Q. Did you get treated at the hospital?
3 A. Yeah. They only took an X-ray of my arm and they wrapped it
4 around, but it wasn't like the normal wrapping you would do when your arm
5 was broken. Just kind of wrapped around with a sheet.
6 Q. Where did you go after that?
7 A. I went to my other aunt's house and we stayed there overnight.
8 And in the night-time we were staying there. We had also candlelight
9 there because there was no power whatsoever. We heard something and we
10 thought: Oh my God, not again. We thought it was the police -- police
11 officers, so we went kind of a huge hill and there were -- thought that
12 I'm going to get hurt but I was fine on my own. My aunt -- my other aunt
13 broke her leg, and by the time we knew it wasn't actual police officers
14 and then we went back to the house, and we said: We have to get out of
15 here first thing in the morning.
16 Q. Did you leave the next day?
17 A. Yes. We got our things packed and we left.
18 Q. Who was in the group you went with?
19 A. My aunt, my uncle, my aunt's husband, my grandma and grandpa and
20 my aunt's little daughter.
21 Q. How did you travel, by foot, in a car?
22 A. Me, my aunt, her husband and her daughter were in a car. My
23 grandma and grandpa and uncle, they went by huge trucks which took people
24 across the border.
25 Q. Where did you go?
1 A. We went to Albania.
2 Q. Do you know where you crossed?
3 A. In Kukes.
4 Q. Mr. Caka, I want to ask you about the men you described as police
5 you saw that night. Since that time have you had a chance to look at some
6 photographs of various uniforms?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you recognise any of those as being similar to the ones
9 you saw of the policemen wearing that night?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness portions of
12 Exhibit P2254, and I have a hard copy I'd like to hand him because I think
13 it's easier for him to turn the pages by hand. And then if he can --
14 Q. If you recognise any photo, Mr. Cacak, will you tell us and then I
15 can tell the court officer or the registry officer which page that would
16 be in the e-court version of 2254.
17 A. For the jackets I saw photo 12, page 6.
18 Q. Okay. And I believe photo 12 would be on page 7 of the e-court.
19 A. This says page 6 at the bottom.
20 Q. Yes. Could you wait just a minute. We're going to put that up on
21 the screen and see if what's on the screen is the same thing that you're
22 looking at in the hard copy. And you described it as photo number?
23 A. 12.
24 Q. Thank you. Any others?
25 A. At the bottom for the pants is -- I'm not too sure. It looks like
1 the photo number 14 on the page 7.
2 Q. Okay. That would be the next page in the e-court version. Thank
4 When you got to Kukes did you get any other further treatment for
5 your injury, for your wound?
6 A. As soon as I crossed the border, like halfway between the Kosovo
7 border and the Albanian border, as soon as I was halfway, help came to me.
8 There was this Albanian guy. I think he was from Kosovo. He got a hold
9 of me. They carried me. And then by the time I knew I was put to sleep,
10 so for about four or five days there I don't remember anything.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not very clear, Mr. Hannis, where that would
13 MR. HANNIS: Where the border would be, Your Honour?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: No, halfway between the Kosovo border and the
15 Albanian border. That doesn't make any sense to me.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. Do you remember crossing the border on your way out of Kosovo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the car?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Do you recall how far it was from that border crossing point to
22 the hospital in Kukes where you went, or how long it took?
23 A. It took about ten minutes.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I want to ask you -- do you still suffer
25 any effects from the bullet wound you received that day?
1 A. No, it's quite good. They asked me if I wanted to break it one
2 more time because it's still not on right, but it's strong -- I play
3 baseball, so it's fine now.
4 Q. Can you show the Judges where you were hit? Do you mind?
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. Could you stand and show us on your arm where you received the
8 A. That's it. [Indicates].
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. You're indicating your right bicep. Thank you.
10 MR. HANNIS: Now, next, Your Honours, I would like to play a video
11 that's Exhibit P2278. There's an accompanying transcript that's 2277. We
12 have hard copies of the transcript available. The video is approximately
13 two minutes and 20 seconds. And I don't know if it's helpful to the Court
14 to have a hard copy to read along as the video is playing. Do you have
15 hard copies, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I certainly was -- received one, yeah.
17 MR. HANNIS: And if we're ready could we play the video.
18 I don't know that we're getting any sound. Can the -- can the
19 booth help us? I'm seeing a sign from the booth that they --
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 MR. HANNIS: We'll give it another try here.
22 I apologise, Your Honours. We're not getting any sound.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you at the end of your examination?
24 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm told to instruct you to release the video,
2 Mr. Hannis.
3 MR. HANNIS: To delete the video?
4 JUDGE BONOMY: To release the video.
5 MR. HANNIS: To release the video.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Our powers are limited to some extent.
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 [Videotape played]
9 "We went into the house, the daughter of Lulzim Vejsa was chased
10 by them with an automatic rifle, but they did not harm her, they only shot
11 at the furniture, and the house started burning.
12 "And then how did they get killed, did you see them?
13 "And then we were made to sit on the couches.
14 "They made you sit on the couches.
15 "They killed Flaka Hoxha first.
16 "Just a second.
17 "Don't give him anything to eat at this moment.
18 "It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter at all, Flaka's father was
19 killed too.
20 "No, the father is alive.
21 "Grandfather, pardon me, grandfather, Flaka's grandfather was
22 killed and her aunt, Muni.
23 "No, Muni is alive.
25 "Yes, he's alive.
1 "How old was Flaka, Flaka Hoxha?
2 "Did you see them killing Flaka? Did they shoot her with an
3 automatic rifle?
4 "Yes, with a machine-gun.
5 "By a machine-gun, they shot ...
6 "Did they shoot at their back?
7 "Yes, and in their head.
8 "How did they escape -- how did you escape?
9 "He was wounded.
10 "Those policemen were standing on the kitchen door ... I walked
11 there slowly ... I was lying down, pretending to be dead, and when they
12 left I went into the room, I almost choked from the smoke ...
13 "And when they moved from the door, he run in another room was
14 burning. It was the smoke, a lot of smoke inside. He stay on that smoke.
15 "How long did you, Dren, sweetheart, how long did you stay in that
17 "I think around half an hour. And they left the room and they
18 left us as well, and then they left.
19 "You shouldn't be afraid. No, honey, don't be afraid. Don't use
20 the scissors.
21 "She will only give it to you intravenously and you will fall
22 asleep and nothing else.
23 "I'm afraid that they will put me to sleep and then they will
24 operate on me.
25 "No, they are not going to operate on you in a tent. Where did
1 you hear of a person having surgery in a tent, Dreni?
2 "Please don't do anything to me with scissors."
3 MR. HANNIS:
4 Q. Mr. Caka, have you seen that before?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Is that you?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. There was another younger child pictured in that video for a
9 portion. Do you know who that was?
10 Oh, sorry. In the video there was another -- there was another
11 child pictured. Do you know who that was that was in the tent with you.
12 A. I can't understand anything.
13 Q. You're not getting any --
14 A. No.
15 Q. You understand my English?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Are you getting it now?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the video the camera panned to another injured child. Do you
20 know who that was?
21 A. I don't recall his name, but he was another kid that there was a
22 massacre and he had one side of his leg blown off. He was on the same
23 helicopter as me, taking us from Kukes to Tirana. And there was no
24 more -- the helicopter couldn't take any more people in. And my aunt
25 asked his mother: What's your name, give me your address, I'll try care
1 of him, and when I see you next time I'll try to look for you when we're
2 back in Kosovo.
3 Q. So that video was when you were in Kukes in the field hospital?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where were you taken from there?
6 A. To Tirana.
7 Q. And how long were you in Tirana?
8 A. About four or five months.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I would like to tender the video 2278
10 and the transcript 2277.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. Mr. Caka, of the 21 of you that were in the basement and then
14 taken to the house that night, were you the only one to get out alive?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. HANNIS: I have no more questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. First it will be counsel for General Lukic
20 and thereafter we'll follow the indictment.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Caka.
1 A. Hi.
2 Q. I'm Branko Lukic, and I represent General Lukic together with my
3 colleagues Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic.
4 I just have a few questions for you, and I kindly ask you to help
5 me just to clarify a few things you remember, or if you don't remember,
6 just tell me and that's fine. Okay?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. We were -- we are pretty eager to know, and if you can
9 help us with that, what is your neighbour's name that you described that
10 took part in the killings of your family?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. When you described those police officers in your statement from
13 May the 12th, 2001, you said: "I saw three policemen. They wore blue
14 camouflage uniforms. They had guns in holster pockets on their sides.
15 They had greenish-coloured bullet-proof vests over their uniforms, and
16 hanging from their vests they had many grenade bombs. They had big
17 walkie-talkie radios, and I saw one policeman talk into the radio in
18 Serb. They each carried a big rifle. Two of them wore hats. They wore
19 knives and shields, at least one I saw in a shield on a policeman's leg."
20 I know that you were young at that time, but would you agree with
21 me that this is not a description of a regular police officer, was it not?
22 A. This is not -- no, it's not. But there weren't any -- there
23 weren't any green vests. There was all blue and blue camouflage. And
24 there was no bombs.
25 Q. So this description we have in front of us is not hundred per cent
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do they -- had -- did they have hats in their --
4 A. One of them had a hat.
5 Q. And how did those big guns look like, they --
6 A. AK-47.
7 Q. AK-47, okay. And can you remember any more details regarding
8 their uniforms? Have you seen any badges?
9 A. No, sorry.
10 Q. Okay. That's fine.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, is that statement --
12 MR. LUKIC: I'll tell you. It's -- I can refer to the exact
13 paragraph. It's the statement from the --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but does it have a P number?
15 MR. LUKIC: -- 2001 -- I was informed that there is no P number to
16 this statement.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And you haven't introduced it into the e-court
19 MR. LUKIC: No, we haven't, Your Honour. But I think that I got
20 the clarification I seeked for it, so ...
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you don't seek to do so?
22 MR. LUKIC: If it's not too late, I would like to have it
23 introduced, yes.
24 MR. HANNIS: I have no objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I -- I think what you ought to do is have it
1 introduced into the system and then tomorrow you can tell me what number
2 it has.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It would be 6D69.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: It is -- all right, well, we'll note it's 6D69 and
5 leave it to you to introduce it into the system.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Caka, in this case the Prosecutor interviewed one protected
8 witness with a pseudonym K74, and in his statement on the page 3,
9 paragraph 6, he claims that in that attack, among other attackers, there
10 was some Albanians. Did you by any chance recognise anybody among those
11 people as being an Albanian?
12 A. The police officers?
13 Q. Yes, sir.
14 A. There weren't any Albanians.
15 Q. You told us that some of these police officers spoke Albanian?
16 A. They spoke -- they only said: Are you guys with the Albanian
17 army? And we said: No, we're just -- we want to be in a safe place.
18 Q. Okay. So you haven't recognised anybody from Jakupi family?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, do you know who's meant by the Jakupi family?
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC:
25 Q. Although you cannot give us the exact name of this neighbour of
1 yours, do you still remember how did he look like? Can you give us more
2 details about his appearance?
3 A. He had hair. He's the one that was right by the windows, and
4 he -- he had about short brownish hair and dark eyes, dark -- probably
5 dark brown eyes and about -- height around 180, and weight, had a stomach
6 a little bit. That's it.
7 Q. Do you remember anything specific regarding his uniform?
8 A. No. They were all the same uniforms.
9 Q. Okay. You described to us your trip to the hospital. Was it a
10 regular hospital? Walk-in clinic? Emergency? If you can remember.
11 A. In Kukes?
12 Q. No, in Djakovica.
13 A. It was the regular hospital where it still is right now. And we
14 walked -- we walked in right afterwards and -- like I said before, we
15 walked in the hospital. There was one Serbian soldier there and he said:
16 What happened? And my grandfather told him. And he says: Oh, I feel
17 bad. We shouldn't be harming women and children.
18 Q. In -- do you remember in which language have you spoken with that
19 medical personnel, doctor or a nurse?
20 A. The doctor, he was Albanian, but the soldier -- the soldier who
21 was there, he was Serbian but can speak Albanian.
22 Q. And do you remember whether any record was made at that time
23 regarding your injury?
24 A. No. I was right in and out of there. Just took an X-ray. They
25 said my arm was broken, but I already knew that.
1 Q. Okay. Thanks.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. LUKIC:
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Caka. I don't have any more questions. Thank you
5 very much.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.
7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.
12 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic -- oh, sorry, Mr. Ackerman. Aleksic.
14 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour. Thank
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: One maybe.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
22 Q. With regard to the neighbour who you said was a policeman, do you
23 recall indicating a name in 1999 when you were interviewed about this?
24 A. I probably gave the name, but now I don't remember.
25 Q. In your statement it mentions the name Novica, Gjoka's son, does
1 that ring a bell?
2 A. [No verbal response].
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. HANNIS: No further questions, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the answer to that? No. Well, it
6 says "no verbal response."
7 What was your answer to that question?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't remember, okay.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Caka, that completes your evidence.
12 Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. You're now
13 free to leave.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Oh, I see Mr. Lukic is up, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, sorry --
19 MR. HANNIS: Mr. --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Sepenuk.
21 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, Your Honour.
22 MR. LUKIC: Wisdom first.
23 MR. SEPENUK: -- introduce a very rare moment of levity into the
24 trial. I didn't think it would be appropriate with the witness here, but
25 I'd love to come back at a time 43 years from now when I'm no longer
1 around, but I'd love to come back when he's aged 60 and ask him if he
2 still thinks that 60 is an old man.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Like everything else, Mr. Sepenuk, age is relative.
4 The elderly Mr. Lukic is anxious to address us as well.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't think that I will be
6 that charming as Mr. Sepenuk, because I have one problem to raise.
7 You also mentioned today, before, that we have to limit our
8 cross-examinations, but I can assure you that a lot of our
9 cross-examinations arise from the additions to the witness statements, as
10 we have with the next witness. I was sure yesterday that I would be one
11 day to rest at least, not having to cross this witness, but then we
12 received the supplemental statement in which this witness connects, unlike
13 before, police and paramilitary. So now I have to go with him through the
14 whole of his statement and every single one. So we -- and it wasn't
15 disclosed and we object to admission.
16 I know that even the Prosecutor -- Prosecutor didn't propose the
17 admission of this document, but it might be proposed by one of my
18 colleagues who defend military. Now, I would have been in the position to
19 jump again and to object and to at the end cross-examine this witness.
20 So if we want to have a mess of this case, then we can continue
21 this way. But what if the Defence continues with the same practice, if we
22 provide the other side with the 65 ter statements from our witnesses and
23 change it on a day of the direct examination?
24 I think that it's not all right to proceed with this kind of
25 practice. And I apologise for taking your time, Your Honours, but we
1 really have -- we have -- I think that Your Honours should give some
2 guidelines to the Prosecutor.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: This is not something to apologise for because on
4 the face of it it's a -- on the face of it, I haven't heard the answer
6 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: On the face of it, what you're saying sounds very
9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's hear what Mr. Hannis has to say in
12 Mr. Stamp then.
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I caught the last
14 part of the submission by my learned friend --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you can read it -- I'll give you a moment to
16 read it on the screen there.
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, what you must be referring to is
19 something that has not come the way of the Trial Chamber yet. Is that
21 MR. LUKIC: I don't know, Your Honours, whether you received this,
22 but it's the addendum from 27th of August, 2006 -- statement actually,
23 statement, from 27th of August, 2006. And it hasn't been tendered by the
24 Prosecution, so maybe you don't have it.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now --
1 MR. STAMP: I --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: If it's not in fact being presented as a statement,
3 then are you able to identify for me where you claim that you've not been
4 given adequate notice of the line of evidence that is to be followed?
5 MR. LUKIC: I anticipate that this document might be tendered, as
6 I told you, by my other colleagues because they might use it.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
8 MR. LUKIC: And this part which bothers me is not part of 65 ter
10 JUDGE BONOMY: The trouble is -- this is one of these problems
11 that I -- that is not soluble, so I understand your approach now, that you
12 would be taking a stricter line if it was simply material which supported
13 the Prosecution case. What you fear is that other accused can use this
14 material produced so late and you realise it's difficult for you to oppose
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's the problem.
18 MR. LUKIC: Or the Prosecution might lead the evidence on it. We
19 don't know yet.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, but -- yeah. I think I need to be clear
21 about the extent to which it's not heralded in the 65 ter.
22 MR. LUKIC: There is no any kind of mentioning of the connection
23 in between police and the paramilitaries. Now we have those two groups
24 interlinked completely by paragraph 2 of this new statement, only by one
25 paragraph it applies on every single mentioning of the paramilitaries in
1 his previous statements and probably today in his -- during his testimony.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying the previous testimony makes no
3 mention of the police at all?
4 MR. LUKIC: It does mention police but not in connection with
5 paramilitaries. In one paragraph police was helping to find somebody's
6 parents or I don't know, there is mentioning of police.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: But not adverse to you?
8 MR. LUKIC: No, not adverse to me.
9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp.
11 MR. STAMP: Yes. Just for clarification, may I first indicate
12 that the additional statement -- the addendum to the previous statement
13 was put into e-court as P2280 [Realtime transcript read in error "P2284"],
14 and we transmitted it to the Defence in English and thereafter in B/C/S as
15 soon as that became available. We did so as a matter of urgency because
16 we realised that upon being asked in proofing certain questions about the
17 evidence that it -- that he was to give, he said or gave information that
18 he thought should be brought before the Court, and the Defence of course
19 should be given notice of it.
20 The mentioning of the police in conjunction with the
21 paramilitaries shows to some extent it is considered to go beyond the
22 65 ter summary because the summary does not explicitly mention the police
23 as being -- cooperating in this way with the paramilitaries, and in those
24 circumstances we would seek the Court's leave to -- to amend the 65 ter
25 summary and to proceed with the evidence as the witness is able to give it
1 and as indicated -- or as notified to the Defence at the earliest
2 opportunity when it became available -- when we became aware that the
3 witness was in a position to say this.
4 The number of the document, the addendum is 2280.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, you said 2284 a moment ago. Is it --
6 MR. STAMP: It is 2280.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. ACKERMAN: May I confuse the matter further, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I need a moment to read this, Mr. Ackerman.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Lukic, is the direct reference confined to
12 paragraph 2 and paragraph 9?
13 MR. LUKIC: Let me check paragraph 9, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Maybe --
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, in this paragraph he specifically mentions the
16 police for the first time.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What about paragraph 13, is that new as well, the
18 second -- third sentence?
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, for the first time.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just wanted to point out that at
22 7.28 last night, at least I was sent and I suspect all my colleagues were
23 sent a new 65 ter summary. And it did not include this new information,
24 which in many ways tell you that they didn't intend to use it, otherwise
25 they'd have put it in there. So that's -- I think that tends to cancel
1 out the proposition that they notified us as soon as possible. They told
2 us last night and the fact that they weren't going to use it.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in the new 65 ter summary can you show me
5 where it implicates the police.
6 MR. STAMP: The 65 ter summary sent in the notification is the
7 same 65 ter summary as was originally sent. The policy of the Prosecution
8 is that we would not change the summaries without applying to the Court.
9 The notification is the notification we give when we serve the Defence
10 with the --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Right. Well, I have lying on my desk two documents
12 which I received today.
13 MR. STAMP: Yeah.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Which are called: Updated 65 ter summaries. Why
15 are they called updated if they are the same?
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. STAMP: It seems, Your Honour, that in light of recent
18 developments there is now developing a practice to do it that way. The --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this is chaos, isn't it --
20 MR. STAMP: The Prosecution --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Whoa, whoa. This is chaos. This case started --
22 was first investigated in 1999. I have, a number of times, outwith as
23 well as inside the court made the comment that there is a time for
24 investigating cases, and it's the pre-trial stage, at the very latest.
25 And things should have been put in order in time to give everybody a
1 reasonable opportunity to plan how they're going to conduct their part of
2 the case, bearing in mind that there are going to have to be limitations
3 placed on the parties' freedom to present the case at will. And this sort
4 of thing is simply making it more and more difficult to manage the case.
5 Now, this one's a particularly difficult one because I don't think
6 there's a great deal involved on the face of it, but it has changed the
7 complexion of who this witness will suggest is responsible for part of the
8 conduct referred to in the statement and prior evidence. Now --
9 MR. STAMP: Indeed. The -- of course we accept that. The
10 difficulty, of course, is if and when the witness comes for proofing and
11 he's asked specific questions and he gives specific answers which are
12 relative and probative of the issues before the Court, I think the
13 Prosecution ought at least to apply to the Court to have it heard.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: But you see, I ask again the question: Why are
15 these witnesses being proofed at this stage? It seems utterly ridiculous
16 to me to wait until they're at the door of the court before a lawyer sits
17 down with them and addresses their evidence; that's a lawyer with an
18 understanding of the case as a whole. Because all that's going to happen
19 is we're going to limp from witness to witness, unsure of what that
20 witness's evidence is going to be until they come to court. Now, that's
21 not -- that's not a good enough way to present an international case which
22 is constantly in the public limelight.
23 Are you short of money to carry out investigations at the right
24 stage? Is that the problem? If so, then it should be out in the open.
25 MR. STAMP: That is -- well, that is not something I'm able to
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, dear. Well, so you can't tell me the reason?
3 MR. STAMP: The -- but of course there are practical, logistical
4 limitations on the amounts of time that we can approach or bring the
5 witnesses here. Even the witnesses themselves resist coming here for long
6 periods before they testify, and of course if we have them here for long
7 periods, there are of course --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the problem about lawyers going to Kosovo
9 and actually investigating the case properly in the pre-trial phase at the
10 latest? What's the problem there? Is it not cheaper for a lawyer to go
11 there than to bring witnesses and all their accompanying personnel to
12 The Hague?
13 Anyway, we have to deal with this particular problem.
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I make one remark here in connection
15 with that?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: You'll recall in the pre-trial stage at one point we
18 had 80 or 90, 92 bis witnesses who we had proposed as 92 bis without
19 cross-examination. And that at that time we thought that might happen, or
20 at least for a portion of them. We understand your decision and we don't
21 disagree with it, but that was one reason that those people weren't seen.
22 But the other is a practical, logistical resource problem.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can I say that the first reason strikes me as
24 extraordinarily naive because one thing that's absolutely clear from the
25 way in which this case has been conducted so far is that there could have
1 been the grossest miscarriage of justice if these witnesses had not been
2 available for cross-examination.
3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I understand your point. But I indicate
4 to you it's not naive on my part based on the experience in the other case
5 that I worked on in the Tribunal.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, all that's happened through -- well, one
7 thing that's become clear through cross-examination is that it was
8 necessary. I shudder to think what might well have happened without that
9 opportunity being available.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, does it make any difference to your
12 position if the hearing of this evidence is postponed at all?
13 MR. LUKIC: I can tell you our preference is first. We would
14 kindly ask Your Honours to bar this kind of evidence to be introduced
15 because it's after all time-limits introduced --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem about that in this case, and it may --
17 it may happen again, is that it's quite different from the evidence that
18 we previously refused to hear because it was a discrete topic that could
19 be separated from the rest of the witness's evidence. What we face here
20 is evidence which is an expansion, elaboration, qualification, call it
21 what you will, of the account previously given. So it's intertwined with
22 the evidence given.
23 Now, we have in mind the possibility that if this were to happen
24 again and we couldn't easily separate the new evidence from the old, that
25 we might refuse to hear the witness at all because it would be unrealistic
1 to do anything else. But in relation to this witness, it's not clear that
2 that's the case.
3 MR. LUKIC: I could - I don't know if it's right time or not -
4 direct you to the Milosevic transcript when she [sic] was particularly
5 asked about paramilitaries, she never mentioned like this, said anything
6 like this.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think that's something that here you're
8 going to be able to deal with by way of cross-examination. So my initial
9 question at the moment is whether delay makes any difference or your point
10 is a different one. It's just means that you have to spend time with the
11 witness that you didn't envisage spending.
12 MR. LUKIC: Of course that I would spend some time that I hadn't
13 envisaged before. But still we would ask for this part at least, if not
14 the whole, testimony of this witness be barred.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: You can see how unrealistic that is, Mr. Lukic. To
16 exclude the witness entirely is feasible, but to exclude parts of the
17 evidence is not. That's -- that's our problem.
18 Anyway, we -- I've heard what you've said. We have ourselves
19 discussed how we might proceed here.
20 Now, Mr. Stamp, is -- just hold on a second. Is there another
21 witness readily available?
22 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated].
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we're also clear in our minds that -- we're
24 also quite clear in our minds that if you seek relief in the form of
25 additional time with the re-calling of the witness or whatever, then
1 obviously we would view that sympathetically in a situation like the
2 present. And we are prepared, to make it clear, that if this is repeated,
3 then there is a distinct possibility of us refusing to hear the witness at
4 all if we cannot separate out the bits of the evidence that are really
5 new, in the sense that they are significant enough to bring an accused
6 into the picture who was previously not in the frame.
7 But in relation to this witness, I think we should hear that
8 evidence and your cross-examination, for which there obviously will be a
9 very strong foundation from the previous transcript.
10 MR. LUKIC: At least if we can get break after the direct
11 examination so we can prepare ourselves further.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you need that, you can raise it at that
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Stamp, in the rather exceptional
17 circumstances here where there is a witness who can give evidence in line
18 with a 65 ter summary but it emerges that there may be significant, though
19 brief, parts of that evidence that are affected by new discoveries, we
20 are -- and where no particular indication has been given before of the
21 sort of action we might take when faced with a similar problem, we are
22 prepared to allow the amendment of the 65 ter notification to demonstrate
23 that this witness will speak -- will give evidence that would implicate
24 the police. And we shall allow her -- him to testify on that basis.
25 However, we make it clear now that there is a distinct possibility
1 should this situation arise again, and we cannot simply exclude, easily
2 exclude the additional evidence, then we would refuse to hear the witness
3 because it would be unrealistic to do other than take that action if we
4 are to keep this trial moving at a reasonable pace, as is inevitably
5 required by the volume of material that parties seek to place before us.
6 So you can now bring in the witness and we'll proceed to hear that
8 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 MR. STAMP: I should have indicated also that in the notification
11 we have indicated -- or we have made a cross-reference to the exhibits
12 used in Milosevic that are -- in the Milosevic case that are of relevance
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Shabani.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you -- one second. Would you please now make
17 the solemn declaration by reading aloud the document which is before you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
21 Now, Mr. Shabani, we have before us written material containing
22 evidence you have given and statements you have given, so we know a lot
23 already about your account of events. The purpose of this hearing is to
24 enable counsel for the parties to ask further questions for a number of
25 reasons. They may be to clarify, they may be to allow you to give
1 additional information, and they may be to challenge the evidence. Don't
2 be surprised if questions are asked that appear to challenge your version
3 of events because it is the job of lawyers in this system to ask that sort
4 of question. That's the system under which this Tribunal operates.
5 The first person to ask you questions will be on behalf of the
6 Prosecution. Please listen carefully to the questions and try to limit
7 your answer to the particular point that the question is directed to.
8 Mr. Stamp.
9 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: QAMIL SHABANI
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Mr. Stamp:
13 Q. Sir, could you please state your full name for the record.
14 A. Yes, my name is Qamil Shabani.
15 Q. Mr. Shabani, I see from here that you have something looking like
16 notes. I -- I'm going to ask you to close them and just help us as much
17 as you can from your memory. And if you need to refer to your notes you
18 could ask His Honour, the President, for permission to do so. Thank you.
19 Mr. Shabani, as His Honour indicated, we have already your
20 statements and a transcript of your evidence which you gave before. But
21 just for the record, did you give a statement to officers of the OTP at
22 your home in the Zhegra village in June 2001?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And thereafter on the 4th of March, 2002, and the 6th of March,
25 2002, you attended here, testifying in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic?
1 A. Yes, that's true.
2 Q. And following that, before you came here to testify on this
3 occasion, did you on the 27th of August give some additional information
4 to officers of the Tribunal?
5 A. Yes, I gave some supplementary evidence.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STAMP: For the record, Your Honours, that -- those three
8 documents are in e-court as P02263 for the witness statement of June 2001;
9 P02264 for the transcript in the case number IT-02-54; and P2280 for the
10 recent addendum of the 28th -- 27th of August.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
12 MR. STAMP: I was indicating, Your Honour, just for the benefit of
13 the Court, that we have in order to assist the Court in following the
14 Milosevic transcript, indicated what the P numbers are for the evidence
15 referred to in that case. There are different numbers. So one could
16 cross-refer to the P numbers if one wishes to look at the document that
17 the witness is referring to in that case.
18 Q. Mr. Shabani, you -- in your statement you indicated that you are
19 from Zhegra village?
20 A. Yes, yes. I am from Zhegra village.
21 Q. Thank you. Prior to March 1999, how long had you lived there?
22 A. We have always lived in Zhegra, ever since we were born. Our
23 fathers and forefathers have been living there.
24 Q. And you say "we." Did your family also live in Zhegra village?
25 A. Yes, yes. My family, too, lived in that village, and our
1 ancestors lived there. We are ancient inhabitants of that place.
2 Q. Now, you abandoned your village on the 29th of March, 1999, and
3 went with your family and other villagers to the village of Stublla. Can
4 you briefly in your own words tell us why you left your village?
5 A. We left our village because of the Serb reprisals in the village
6 against other inhabitants during the time that the NATO air bomb --
7 air-strikes started. Before that time, there were Serb police and army,
8 two, three weeks before the strikes. Then other supplementary forces came
9 and were stationed in the village on the 28th. And then they started the
10 operations of cleansing the village from the Albanians.
11 Q. Can I stop you there. You said on the 28th they started the
12 operations of cleaning the village of the Albanians. You said in your
13 statement, and this is the third full paragraph of page 3 of the English
14 version, and the second full paragraph of page 3 of the B/C/S version,
15 that the soldiers started to expel people from the entrance of the
16 building. How did you become aware of that? Did you actually observe
17 this or were you told that?
18 A. I don't understand the question. Can you repeat it, please.
19 Q. Yes. You just spoke of operations to clean the village of
20 Albanians, and I'm referring you now to a part of your statement in which
21 you said: "The next morning, the 23rd [sic] of March, 1999, the soldiers
22 started to expel people from the entrance to the village. They went to
23 the houses and forced the people to leave, ordering them with guns to
24 leave the village. They started to shoot and frighten the people."
25 How did you become aware that this was happening? Is this
1 something you personally observed or were you told this?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the date won't help, I think, because the
3 date is the 29th of March, is it not?
4 MR. STAMP: The next morning.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the 29th of March, yes, that's
7 right, the 29th. The 29th of March.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: So now that we've got that clear, you're being
9 asked how you knew what was happening.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were there, in the village. And
11 people were fleeing the village out of -- Serb forces who had entered
12 their houses and looking for the most prominent figures in our village.
13 They had pre-arranged lists with the help of the local Serbs. And they
14 knew who the leaders of the political parties in Zhegra were. They were
15 looking for the chairman of the LDK, Tahir Tahiri was his name, and other
16 persons who had an influence in the village.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Very well. I thank you. Remember that we have our statement and
19 the transcript of your testimony, so I'm just going to ask you to focus on
20 one part of the question.
21 The expulsion that you speak of on the morning of -- well, on the
22 29th of March, the morning in fact, how did you know that the soldiers
23 were going about? You say you were there. Did you actually see the
24 soldiers who were involved in the expulsion?
25 A. Yes, I saw them, and I heard them. It was because of them that I
1 myself was forced to leave. They shelled the village with all sorts of
2 weapons. They used APCs, machine-guns, and we could see them driving
3 around the village. They shot at our houses, and they entered the houses
4 of the local inhabitants and drove the inhabitants out.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. So ...
7 Q. In your statement you said that you left the village and went to a
8 hill called Kushlevica where you spent the night, and then you returned to
9 the village and the next morning there was still shooting, and it was
10 coming from the APCs that were driving through the village. Can you say
11 whose -- what the APC is, firstly, and whose -- or which organisation did
12 it belong to?
13 A. It's an armoured car, and they belonged to the army, to the
14 Serbian army, that was in the village at that time. And they were
15 operating in the village.
16 Q. No, I --
17 A. They shelled the houses of Albanians. That's why they were
18 obliged to flee. As a result of that action, two persons got injured.
19 One woman got injured on her right arm, and another person, a male, was
20 wounded in his leg.
21 Q. When you went to the village of -- and I may get the pronunciation
22 wrong, I had it written - anyway, Stublla?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. About how many other villagers went there with you?
25 A. We were around 1300 people, all from that part of the village that
1 was on the side of the river that runs through the village. So the
2 village is divided in two parts. We were about 1.300 villagers who went
3 in the direction of Stublla. We spent the night there and then we -- the
4 next day we returned to Zhegra. But in the morning of the 29th, the
5 Serbian forces started to fire again at the village and its population.
6 And in the house of Tahir Tahiri, who was the chairman of the LDK branch
7 who they wanted liquidate.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. They killed his brother, Shyqri Tahiri.
10 Q. Thanks. That is in your statement. When you left your village to
11 stay in Stublla for five weeks, what date was that?
12 A. It was the 29th of March.
13 Q. And from there you eventually went to Macedonia?
14 A. Yes. We stayed in Stublla for five weeks, and then after five
15 weeks we went to Macedonia.
16 Q. Can you give us an number, just an approximate number, about how
17 many refugees from Kosovo went with you or in your group to Macedonia?
18 A. In our group, yes, initially we were around 600 people. Then
19 other -- then 60 other people from Isufaj village joined us. And then
20 when we approached the border, another 300 joined our group that went to
21 Macedonia. These happened later, at the stage when we started to go to
23 Q. Do you think you would be able to mark on a map the route you took
24 from your village to Stublla and from Stublla to Macedonia?
25 A. Yes, I can do that. I can also do that for other groups.
1 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be shown map P36. May I just
2 indicate to the Court that although that was dealt with in the previous
3 trial, he just made indications apparently, so there were no markings on
4 the exhibit. So the exhibit from that case would not be helpful here.
5 Can you just pan it in so that we can read the place names,
6 please. Can you zoom in, please -- oh, sorry. Thank you. That's good.
7 Thank you very much. I think you probably need to zoom out just a little
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please enlarge it.
10 MR. STAMP: I think it would be helpful if you could move the
11 centre of the map further to the top of the map, to scroll down, as it
13 Q. Just a minute, just a minute. Can you see on that map Gnjilane?
14 A. Yes, yes, I can.
15 Q. Can you see your hometown, your home village, Zhegra?
16 A. Yes, it's here.
17 Q. Can you put a circle -- oh, dear.
18 MR. STAMP: You need to zoom out. Would it be able to mark a hard
19 copy on the ELMO? I think we'll be able to move more quickly. Thank you,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Shabani, go to your left. Look to the
22 document on your left-hand side.
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. Mr. Shabani, the document is on your left. Now, first identify
25 where your village is on that map, and then put a circle around it.
1 A. It's here.
2 Q. And could you next identify where Stublla is, the village that you
3 sought refuge first?
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. And could you just quickly mark the route from your village to
6 Stublla and then from Stublla across the border to Macedonia.
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. Just, if you can, draw a line along the route.
9 A. [Marks].
10 Q. Can you see on the map where the border crossing was? Can you put
11 an X where the border crossing was, please.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters don't hear the witness.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. Could you put an X there.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Thank you. And ...
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Thank you. I think ...
19 A. [Marks].
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, thank you.
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. Thank you. How did you travel from Zhegra to Stublla?
23 A. We walked on foot. The entire population walked all the way.
24 Q. And from Stublla to Macedonia?
25 A. From Stublla to Macedonia, we walked, too.
1 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to take you through one or two
2 documents very quickly, if you can help me.
3 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P1325. And while
4 that is being done, could that map be given an exhibit number as well,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: That depends on whether the registrar can
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this map will be given the exhibit
9 number IC27.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 MR. STAMP: I will, for brevity, lead the witness straight through
12 this part of evidence because this was testified in Milosevic.
13 Q. You said earlier or -- in the previous occasion that you testified
14 here that the photos number 6 --
15 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to photo number 6, 7, and 8.
16 Q. -- Were some of the vehicles that the army possessed in the
17 vicinity of Zhegra shortly before you had to abandon your -- the village.
18 Do you see them? Do you see those vehicles 6, 7, and 8 in front of you?
19 A. Yes, I do. And all these that I see here were part of the
20 vehicles I saw in the village.
21 Q. Now, you said -- you also said in your statement that there was
22 a -- an APC, a military APC, that fired on the village's house -- houses.
23 Do you see it here?
24 A. [No verbal response].
25 Q. Can you recall which one it was? Sorry, do you see it here. You
1 didn't answer verbally. Could you answer orally, please, for the record.
2 A. Yes. Yes, there was such a vehicle, and there were -- it was open
3 on top and there were soldiers standing there, and it was an armoured car.
4 Q. The one that you say you saw driving through Zhegra and firing on
5 the houses; do you see there?
6 A. In this screen I don't see that vehicle, but the other ones that I
7 see here were also seen in the village. Maybe it's in another part of the
8 screen, the one you are talking about.
9 MR. STAMP: Can we go back to the first page of this exhibit?
10 Q. And what I'm trying to ask you to identify if you can or to tell
11 us if you can is if you see the vehicle that drove through Zhegra firing
12 at the houses.
13 A. I don't find it here. It's armoured, but it's open, as I said, on
14 top. I could see soldiers standing there.
15 Q. Very well.
16 MR. STAMP: Could we move to Exhibit P1326.
17 Q. Is that -- is that document clear to you? Can you see it clearly?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You said that you saw soldiers in the vicinity of your village.
20 Do you see any of the uniforms that they wore while they were there in
21 that photograph?
22 A. Yes. Here, in this picture. In this picture below.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Which number is it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nine.
25 MR. STAMP:
1 Q. Do you see any others?
2 A. Number 6.
3 Q. I'm not sure if I can make out the numbers, so could you just put
4 a dot or a mark on the number 6, please. Just mark it. If you can mark
5 number 6, please, the one you call number 6, because I can't see the
7 JUDGE BONOMY: You must get your screen seen to, then.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. Thanks. Thank you very much.
11 A. There were also reservists, militia, and they had this kind of
12 uniform resembling the police uniform, but they were reservists. I saw
13 such-like in the village.
14 Q. Which uniform is that? Are you still referring to number 6?
15 A. This uniform here.
16 Q. Touch the number, please.
17 A. Number 4.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously this isn't as quick as you thought.
19 MR. STAMP: Yes.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: So we'll need to break. We're already ten minutes
21 past the time. I thought you were finishing --
22 MR. STAMP: I was, as a matter of fact.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that you finished?
24 MR. STAMP: I am not finished, but I was finishing.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, no, we'll break now, then, and we'll resume
1 at 6.15.
2 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour. The Prosecution
6 would have no further questions at this stage.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: When you said earlier that you were relating
8 certain exhibits to their Milosevic transcript references, is that
9 confined to the two that we've just looked at?
10 MR. STAMP: In the --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Or is there some place that you say there is a
13 MR. STAMP: Oh, there is in the witness notification. I thought
14 I -- I probably did not. In the column description of the exhibits, there
15 is a cross-reference to the Milosevic transcript page number and exhibit
17 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
18 Mr. O'Sullivan.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The order will be: General Pavkovic, General
20 Ojdanic, General Lazarevic, General Lukic, Mr. Sainovic, and
21 Mr. Milutinovic.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, my colleagues have asked me to, on
24 their behalf, respectfully request of Your Honours that we defer
25 cross-examination until 9.00 tomorrow morning because of the matter that
1 was -- that came up very recently.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. STAMP: May I --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have any comment to make on this, Mr. Stamp?
5 MR. STAMP: -- just say that it is indeed a difficult position
6 where these new matters arise. There's no gain saying that. However, I
7 think a practical review of what the new matter -- material is by counsel
8 may enable them to at least proceed today and finish tomorrow. When I say
9 that, I in no way try to lighten the impact of the concession I do make,
10 that these late revelations are -- present difficulties and are
12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE BONOMY: One way of dealing with this if it is to be a
15 regular problem might be for us to make an order that any additional
16 65 ter notification has to be made one month in advance of the witness
17 giving evidence. What would your response to that be?
18 MR. STAMP: Immediately I could say that that would be a very,
19 very difficult situation for the Prosecution. The Prosecution would
20 probably have to forego leading new information in that case. In many
21 situations, I think we would only in very limited circumstances be able
22 to -- and a very limited number of witnesses be able to make that type of
23 expedition to get that information.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the Chamber are satisfied that the request
25 made in the circumstances is a reasonable one and will grant it and will
1 hold the time lost against the Prosecution in the circumstances. It's
2 coming that the -- the date is coming closer when we're going to have to
3 look at the management of time again, and this may be a relevant factor in
4 our consideration of that issue.
5 Mr. Shabani, I'm sorry that this has happened, but as a result of
6 developments over which we have no control, the -- it's not possible to
7 proceed further today with the case and it will have to be adjourned until
8 tomorrow. You're required to come back here to continue your evidence
9 at 9.00 tomorrow morning. Meanwhile, it's very important that you do not
10 have any discussion with anyone at all about your evidence, that's either
11 the evidence you've given or the evidence you've yet to give. You can
12 talk about anything else except the evidence. And tomorrow we will not
13 sit later than 1.30 and possibly -- well, we'll finish as conveniently as
14 is possible shortly before 1.30, but 1.30 is a deadline tomorrow.
15 So 9.00 tomorrow morning.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.22 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of
18 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.