Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3006

1 Friday, 8 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. At the end of the day you

8 asked me regarding exhibits that were referred to in the Milosevic

9 transcript of this witness's testimony. I have gone through and checked,

10 Your Honour. There are a number that I would like to bring to your

11 attention and give you the cross-reference numbers, because in Milosevic

12 it had a different number, obviously, than we have in our case.

13 At page 40 -- at page 2042 of the transcript, there is a reference

14 to Milosevic Exhibit 62, which is the hand-drawn map of the witness's

15 municipality, that is our Exhibit P43. At page 2089 of the transcript,

16 there is a reference to the log-book which was Exhibit 63 in Milosevic and

17 which is our 1331. At page 2096, there is a reference to the two

18 statements, the ICTY statements, of the witness which were given the

19 Exhibit Number 64 and 65 in Milosevic, which we have given Exhibit Numbers

20 P2298 and P2299, with 2298 being his statement from 25 April 1999, and

21 2299 being his 31 August 2001 statement. Also shown to the witness was

22 Exhibit 17 from the Milosevic case at page 2059 of the transcript. That

23 is our Exhibit P1325 already in evidence. And Exhibit 18 in the Milosevic

24 case at page 2058 of the transcript, photographs of uniforms, which is our

25 Exhibit 1326, already in evidence. And finally, at page 2071, there was

Page 3007

1 reference to Milosevic Exhibit 3, map 11, which is our Exhibit P25,

2 showing the deportation route from Urosevac, Ferizaj.

3 And to the extent that those are not already in evidence, I would

4 tender them at this time, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: How does -- or how do the statements feature in

6 the transcript?

7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, there was extensive cross-examination by

8 Mr. Milosevic about the statements, and I think Mr. Tapuskovic of the

9 amici also did cross-examination. At page 2096 Judge May indicated

10 that: "We need the statements. Can we have copies, please, there's going

11 to be cross-examination about it."

12 And then there was extensive cross-examination.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Bucaliu.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will now continue. Please bear in

18 mind that the solemn declaration which you took at the beginning of the

19 evidence yesterday will continue to supply to your evidence today. The

20 next counsel to ask questions of you will be Mr. Cepic.

21 Mr. Cepic.

22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 However, before I start my cross-examination, by your leave I

24 would like to address you with a few words only and it has to do with the

25 exhibits that my learned friend Mr. Hannis just referred to now.

Page 3008

1 Actually, I seem to be one of the people who are not very technically

2 minded and have a lot of trouble with this new system. I spent all day

3 yesterday looking for these statements that my learned friend mentioned

4 just now. Last night in accordance with 92 bis only the transcript was

5 referred to.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the references,

7 the numbers.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give me again the numbers of the

9 statements -- that's the -- I take it you're referring to 2298 and 2299?

10 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour. Yes, exactly, Your Honour, because

11 yesterday in a package I just found the transcripts from the Milosevic

12 case, and I tried to find -- to find in the system those statements, but

13 probably I haven't got enough experience with these electronic devices.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I may, it's my understanding from my

15 case manager that 2298 and 2299 are the next two numbers on the list but

16 they are not in the system yet. They have been disclosed to the Defence,

17 but they are not in the electronic court system.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this is very unfortunate because we -- when

19 we addressed this issue before of what the extent of a 92 bis (D)

20 statement was, Ms. Carter ensured me that it included all of the exhibits,

21 and that's why witnesses statements who were also presented in part in the

22 course of the examination-in-chief were entirely regarded as 92 bis (D)

23 witnesses. So if you're going to be relying on the exhibits, then they

24 should have been intimated as part of the package, shouldn't they?

25 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I can explain the difference in

Page 3009

1 this situation. In this situation, as opposed to most of the other

2 Milosevic 92 bis witnesses, his statement was not tendered as a

3 92 bis (B), he was led as a live witness. During cross-examination when

4 Mr. Milosevic started doing extensive cross-examination on the statements,

5 that's when the Court indicated a need for the statements. And now, since

6 we've offered the transcript with references to those materials, I thought

7 it would be helpful to tender to the Court the statements that are

8 referred to in the cross-examination.

9 In most of the other cases, the witness was presented as a

10 92 bis, the statement was tendered in the Prosecution's direct

11 examination. A short summary was read and then the witness was turned

12 over for cross-examine. In this witness's case, he was led as a live

13 witness and then during cross-examination his statements were gone into.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Cepic, the material was disclosed. You

15 should be capable of finding it. I accept that there's a measure of

16 confusion here, but please continue with your cross-examination. If later

17 you discover that there is something crucial that you've been somehow or

18 other made prevented from dealing with, you'll need to make an appropriate

19 application for us to address. But let's proceed with the examination

20 today.

21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bajram. I'm Djuro Cepic, one of the Defence

Page 3010

1 lawyers for Vladimir Lazarevic.

2 Before I move on, before I start putting questions to you, can you

3 please tell me how I should pronounce your last name. Is it Bucaliu or

4 Bukaliu?

5 A. My last name is Bucaliu.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bucaliu. In your statement you described

7 that on the 25th of March you came to the railway station in Urosevac,

8 where you worked, and that your supervisor told you that as of that day

9 you were no longer employed. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. On the morning of the 24th -- in fact, 25th of May I went to

11 work, as usual. And when I arrived there I asked about my other Albanian

12 colleagues, and my boss told me that as of today we have taken orders for

13 you not to work. You must show up here, but you are not supposed to work.

14 I asked him: Why is this? What has happened? He said: We've taken

15 orders from above. That was it.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to be sure about the date, it was the 25th of

17 March, was it?

18 MR. CEPIC: Of March.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the night after the strikes

20 started, 25th of March.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Mr. Cepic.

23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. I will try to put very specific questions

25 to you so that we would deal with them as fast as possible, so could you

Page 3011

1 please just give me shorter answers. Thank you in advance.

2 You also say that you were in your village on the 2nd of April

3 when the army came with four or five tanks, you said. In your statement

4 that the Prosecutor just referred to as P2298 dated the 24th and 25th of

5 April, 1999, you read that statement and signed it. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And you clearly understood everything that you stated in it,

8 right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. You say that soldiers came who wore green berets, that is on

11 page 2, paragraph 3, and you say that they had metal badges saying "VJ" on

12 them, right?

13 A. Yes, right.

14 Q. And what would you say to me if I were to say to you that the army

15 of Yugoslavia never had such insignia?

16 A. You may think so, but what I have already said, it's true, even

17 though seven years have passed and I may not guarantee that they were

18 metal insignia. But if I have stated it in my statement that it -- that

19 they were metal insignia, then it is true.

20 Q. You will agree with me that your best recollection, in view of all

21 of these events, was when you made this particular statement, the one that

22 I am quoting now, that is to say, in the immediate aftermath. Your

23 recollection must have been much better then than now, seven years later,

24 right?

25 A. Yes, it is so.

Page 3012

1 Q. Thank you. The next sentence you describe tanks, and you say that

2 their barrels were not extended. Do you know that not a single tank in

3 the world can pull its barrels in and out?

4 A. I am fully aware of that and I know that because I have already

5 mentioned that I did my military service. Maybe there are some

6 translation mistakes. I never said that the barrel could be pulled in and

7 out, but maybe it's a mistake, a translation mistake.

8 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, a few moments ago I asked you whether you had read

9 out, understood, and signed the statement that you gave in 1999, the one

10 that I am referring to now, and your answer was affirmative. How come now

11 that you do not understand and that there are mistakes in the said

12 statement?

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have hard copies of the Albanian

14 version of this witness's statement, which it may be helpful if he has in

15 front of him.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think, Mr. Cepic, we should have the statement on

17 the screen. That's P2298.

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I agree, I agree, Your Honour. As far

19 as we understood the Prosecutor this morning, it is in the system.

20 [In English] If I correctly understood my learned friend it is in

21 the system.

22 MR. HANNIS: It's my understanding the statements are not in the

23 system yet.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, right.

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Then I would kindly ask that they be

Page 3013

1 placed on the overhead projector.

2 MR. HANNIS: Would it help if we put the English on the ELMO?

3 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, if you allow me, I've got enough hard

4 copies in my possession.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's sufficient if the English is put on the

6 ELMO and the witness has the Albanian copy.

7 Can you direct us to the --

8 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour. I asked witness about -- that is on

9 the second page, paragraph 3, line 4: "The military tanks were dark green

10 in colour with chains as wheels and no extended long barrel."

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have the passage, Mr. Bucaliu?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not yet. Can I please have a copy

13 in Albanian -- oh, can I see it on the screen in Albanian if that is

14 possible?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you not got an Albanian copy in your hand?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I need some time to find

17 it.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Go to the third paragraph which starts: -- Yes,

19 second paragraph: "Staro Selo was first occupied on 2/4/99."

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: And you'll see the reference to military tanks

22 being dark green in colour. Now, read that sentence to us, would you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The military tanks were of dark

24 green olive colour with chains instead of the wheels and without any long

25 barrel."

Page 3014

1 I mean small cannon here because, as you know, there are different

2 calibre cannons and what I meant was a small-calibre cannon, not the

3 barrel that can be pulled in and out. The meaning was that it was a small

4 cannon, a small-calibre cannon.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, are you a ballistics expert?

8 A. No, I'm not, and I never thought I was one. But I am familiar

9 with armaments because, as I said, I did my military service in the former

10 Yugoslav army and I am more or less familiar with its arms.

11 Q. But you were not in tank units, right?

12 A. No, I was not; that's true.

13 Q. Thank you. Further on you say - and we heard that yesterday -

14 that you talked to a major, as he had introduced himself, and he told you

15 to stay. However, in this statement from 1999 you say that you actually

16 talked to a soldier. Now, what is correct? Did you talk to a soldier or

17 a major?

18 A. The correct version is that I talked with a major, a military

19 major.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, these houses where the army was located at the

21 entrance into the village, how far away are they from your house?

22 A. These houses are some 500 metres away from my house.

23 Q. And you cannot see them since they're all single-storeyed houses,

24 right?

25 A. You can see these houses very well from my house because they were

Page 3015

1 not one storey; they were two- and three-storey houses.

2 Q. Aren't all houses in the village either single-storeyed or just

3 two-storeyed? You don't live in a city, right, you live in a village?

4 A. I live in a village, that's true, but the houses in our village

5 are up to five-storey houses.

6 Q. Are you trying to say that your own house has five storeys?

7 A. I didn't say that I lived in a five-storey house. Mine was a

8 two-storey house. It was burned and it is still not repaired.

9 Q. So in the village there are some five-storeyed houses too. Your

10 house is a two-storey house, and the houses at the entrance into the

11 village are single-storeyed or two-storeys. So how can you see the

12 entrance into the village when in between you have five-storeyed houses,

13 inter alia?

14 A. Between my house and the houses where the army was positioned,

15 there wasn't any house in between. It consists only of meadows and

16 fields, so nothing prevented my view.

17 Q. Thank you. Further on you say --

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Or actually, can we look at the map

19 for a moment? It is P43. Could we please have this map on e-court, P43,

20 Prosecution exhibit.

21 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, on this map can we see your house? Has it been

22 marked on the upper right-hand corner? There is a cross-roads and there

23 is this dark spot; is that your house?

24 A. That is not my house. My house is on this side here.

25 Q. I would just like to have something clarified to me. And why is

Page 3016

1 this other house marked with a dark spot, on the other side?

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. But the entrance into the village is from the road

4 Urosevac-Gnjilane, so it's not by your house - isn't that right? - as we

5 can see on this map?

6 A. My house is in the internal part of the village, some 600 metres

7 away from the Gjilan road.

8 Q. In paragraph 3 that we quoted a few moments ago you say that the

9 army took up positions at the beginning of the road, that is to say at the

10 entrance into the village. Could you please show us on the map where this

11 actually is, where you actually turn off the Gnjilane-Urosevac road.

12 A. The entrance is here, and the houses was situated here in those

13 houses on both sides of the street, here and street, at the entrance to

14 the street --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bucaliu, you need to make a mark on the map

16 with that pen before we can see what you're doing. So can you make these

17 marks, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly. Here and here.

19 These were the houses which the army took over.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the question, though, was where you

21 actually turn off the Gnjilane-Urosevac or Ferizaj road.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the road

23 Gjilan-Ferizaj. The turn is here, the one I marked.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3017

1 Q. As far as I can see on this drawing --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Just for the avoidance of doubt, you've marked

3 houses on either side of the road near the junction with the road from

4 Gnjilane to Ferizaj.

5 All right. Carry on, please, Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bucaliu, in your statement you said that they

8 were stationed in three houses respectively on both sides, not in all of

9 those places as you marked just now on this map. As far as I can see on

10 the map, several houses are marked. Isn't that right?

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

12 MR. CEPIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: It's impossible with the equipment to do the sort

14 of detailed marking you're talking about. This is, I have to say, not an

15 appropriate line to follow in cross-examination when the equipment that

16 we're using couldn't possibly --

17 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- enable the witness to be any more accurate than

19 he has been. Let's get on with it to material issues.

20 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] According to this map, we can conclude that there

22 were some houses between your house and the houses where the soldiers were

23 billeted. Isn't that correct?

24 A. Not at all correct. I already told you, and you can see it

25 clearly on the map, where my house is and where they were stationed.

Page 3018

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. We are now to move on, since unfortunately

2 the map isn't sufficiently clear for us to explore it any further--

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bucaliu, who actually drew the map?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, Your Honour, I drew this map.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Cepic.

7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Were soldiers billeted in the house of Maksim Perovic?

9 A. The army -- rather, the soldiers were not stationed in the house

10 of Maksim Perovic, but moved around and visited the houses of the Serbs,

11 of our Serb neighbours. As I said earlier, they were stationed at the

12 beginning.. at the entrance to the village there, but they moved around

13 and went around to the houses of the Serbs in the village.

14 Q. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Mr. Bucaliu, how do you explain the

15 contradiction. In your statement of 1999 you said that the army took up

16 Albanian houses. I will quote: "The army was stationed in six houses that

17 belonged to Albanians." This is page 2, paragraph 3. And today you are

18 stating that they were billeted in the Serbian houses, Mr. Bucaliu

19 A. I didn't say that then or today. They were not stationed in Serb houses.

20 I will repeat again that the army was stationed in Albanian houses at the entrance

21 into the village. They would go every now and then to Serbian houses as well.

22 Q. [No interpretation].

23 [In English] "... different houses of our Serb neighbours."

24 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me go back, Mr. Bucaliu, to a question earlier.

Page 3019

1 You were asked a question: The army -- rather, the soldiers were not

2 stationed inside the house of Maksim Perovic -- sorry. The question you

3 were asked was: Were soldiers billeted in the house -- houses of Maksim

4 Perovic?

5 And your answer started: "The army -- rather, the soldiers were

6 not stationed inside the house of Maksim Perovic."

7 You then said something about houses at the entrance into the

8 village. Could you tell us again what you said about that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The houses at the entrance into the

10 village are all Albanian houses, and that's where the Serbian soldiers

11 were stationed.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the transcript says: "They moved in different

13 houses of our Serbian neighbours, houses that were at the entrance into

14 the village."

15 Did you actually say that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. It could be a

17 mistake, because the houses at the entrance into the village are Albanian

18 houses. Inside the village there are Serbian houses where the Serbian

19 soldiers would stay every now and then. They would go there to have

20 coffee or to chat with the Serbian neighbours, but they were stationed in

21 the houses which are at the entrance into the village and which are

22 Albanian houses.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, I'll have that checked and we'll advise

24 you as soon as possible whether there was a mistake in the translation.

25 MR. CEPIC: Yes, please. I would be so grateful.

Page 3020

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bucaliu, we now come to the 4th of April.

2 Yesterday you stated that on that day a truck owned by you was taken away

3 from a front yard of one of your Serb neighbours. Is that correct?

4 A. That is correct, because they had taken the truck that we had left

5 in the yard of a Serbian neighbour. That truck belonged to my uncle.

6 Q. Why did you state yesterday as well as in the Milosevic case that

7 you were the owner of the truck?

8 A. I didn't say that I was the owner. My uncle left the truck with

9 me, so for that time you can call it as my own property. So I took this

10 truck to my Serbian neighbour for it to be safer there.

11 Q. On the 12th of March, 2002, you testified in the Milosevic case.

12 At page 2062, beginning from line 10, you mentioned the following: "Then

13 they took away my truck."

14 Yesterday, this is in the transcript page 71, line 5, you state

15 that they truck away your truck.

16 A. Again, I'm saying that this truck belonged to my uncle. So from

17 the moment my uncle brought the truck to my place, I regarded it as my own

18 truck. So that's why I moved it to my neighbour's yard, for it to be

19 safer there.

20 Q. You will agree that the issue of ownership is one of the principal

21 issues. How come you provide us with different answers in just two

22 different days?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that question for the moment,

24 Mr. Bucaliu, we wish to confer on the Bench.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3021

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, we are all agreed that none of your

2 cross-examination is assisting us in any way, and unless you can proceed

3 to something productive then we're going to bring it to an end.

4 MR. CEPIC: I understood, Your Honour. I do apologise to this

5 Honourable Trial Chamber. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please try to proceed to something that may

7 assist us in determining the very important issues that are before us.

8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bucaliu, I believe you are familiar with the

10 fact that at that time it was the state of war. Isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. In the territory of the entire Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

13 Isn't that also correct?

14 A. I don't know about the entire territory of the Federal Republic of

15 Yugoslavia, but in our area that was the case, yes.

16 Q. Do you know that in such situations regulation is put in place,

17 according to which citizens need to surrender their vehicles for the use

18 of the army should it become necessary and that they are -- they enjoy the

19 right to be compensated for it?

20 A. Your Honours, since sir asked me, I will elaborate it now. The

21 truck was in my Serb neighbour's yard. The Serb soldiers went to him and

22 asked him: Whose is this truck? Please, you asked me the questions --

23 question, let me answer it now.

24 So my Serb neighbour answered: It belongs to my neighbour. The

25 Serbian neighbour came to me, took the keys of the truck, and he was kind

Page 3022

1 of scared of these soldiers. He said to me: Please give me the keys as

2 soon as possible because they might even do something to the truck.

3 So he went back with the keys and they wanted to see what is

4 inside the truck. They didn't even allow me to take the documents from

5 the truck. They said to me: What do you -- what kind of documents do you

6 want? They just started the truck and left.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Bucaliu, the question you were asked was

8 whether you were aware that there were regulations in times of war

9 authorising the military to take control of vehicles. Were you aware of

10 that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of that. And I know from

12 the rules of war that in such cases vehicles can be seized for the needs

13 of the army, but in those cases they should provide you with a document

14 that states that this truck was taken from this and that person. So

15 that's why I'm saying in this case it wasn't the case that the lawyer is

16 speaking of. It was looting.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. After the war did you ask for your property to be returned, did

20 you ask for it in writing?

21 A. My uncle, through this neighbour of mine in whose yard the truck

22 was, he asked for his truck to be returned to him. He actually even

23 authorised the neighbour, he put the truck on his name so he was hoping

24 that that could be a way for him to get his truck back. But the answers

25 that the neighbour got was that the truck was somewhere with the army but

Page 3023

1 could not be returned.

2 Q. I asked you whether you personally or your uncle submitted an

3 application to the army for the property to be returned.

4 A. Personally, and my uncle himself, we did not ask for our truck

5 from the army. I said that it was my neighbour who did that. We were

6 doing this through the neighbour and the neighbour was refused many times.

7 Q. Thank you. And I presume you don't have any documents

8 according -- that would prove that?

9 A. The documents are in Ferizaj, if that is important. I can bring

10 them to you. I don't have them with me.

11 Q. Thank you. Further on you state that on the 5th of April the army

12 left your village. On the same day, in the afternoon, some members of a

13 paramilitary formation came and you identified them as being part of the

14 Serbian Chetnik Movement. They restricted your movement, they wouldn't

15 allow you to leave the village, and they introduced a curfew between

16 7.00 p.m. and 7.00 a.m. Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct, yes.

18 Q. You remained in the village until the 14th in the morning, when

19 you are advised by your imam on the murder and then the entire village,

20 some 5 to 600 people, leave the village of their own will and move towards

21 Urosevac. Is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 MR. CEPIC: Just one correction for transcript, please. Line 18 I

24 said 500 to 600 people.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Actually, that's how I would read the transcript as

Page 3024

1 it stands, but I agree normally it would say 500 to 600.

2 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: But 5 to 600 people is the same thing.

4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Can you explain me this: Since such measures

6 were introduced such as you have described, how did you manage to leave

7 the village, these 5 to 600 people?

8 A. I can explain it to you and I've already done that in my

9 statement. But I will describe it to you shortly.

10 So after we received this news about our neighbours being killed,

11 people in the village were terrified. It is true that on this day we were

12 aware of the fact that we were encircled and that we were told not to

13 leave the village, but instinctively on that day people just wanted to

14 save themselves and decided to flee. The part where we -- from where we

15 escaped, it's a flat part, it's kind of a valley, it is possible for them

16 not to have seen us. I'm not sure when I say this, but this is how we

17 escaped.

18 Q. Thank you, thank you. In the evening you arrive in Urosevac and

19 you joined your family. On the 15th, in the morning, you arrived at the

20 train station, you boarded the train, as mentioned in the log-book you

21 brought here, and the train number was 7893. To make it easier for you,

22 this is page K0218517 of the transportation log-book, and you brought that

23 document to be used in the Milosevic case. Is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. The same train bearing the number 7892 was used by you to return

Page 3025

1 to Urosevac, and those were the only two trains on that day which went

2 through that train station. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. The next day you boarded the train with the same number and you

5 leave for Macedonia. And as it is stated in the log-book, there were only

6 two trains that day. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, this is correct.

8 Q. Mr. Gerxhaliu -- I apologise. Mr. Bucaliu, I truly apologise for

9 confusing you with someone else. How can we distinguish between a freight

10 and a passenger train by reading this log-book?

11 A. The passenger trains differ from the freight trains in this

12 log-book according to the digit numbers.

13 Q. Can you explain us what the distinction is in terms of numbers?

14 A. The passenger trains, as I said yesterday, are marked by three-

15 and four-digit numbers, while the freight trains are marked by five-digit

16 numbers.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. There is no signature in this log-book

18 since you were not the person keeping it. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Did you ever keep a train log-book?

21 A. Yes, I did. From 1981 to 1987 and now from 2002 to present.

22 Q. Perhaps we should clarify something. You say that you have been

23 keeping such log-books from 2002 until the present. But from what I

24 understood from the transcript and according to what you stated yesterday,

25 you were a gas station operator and there was no mention of you keeping a

Page 3026

1 log-book.

2 A. I did work at a gas station, but now I work in a railway station

3 and I do keep log-book since 2002.

4 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, yesterday in answer to one of the questions by the

5 OTP you stated that you work at the gas station in your village, and yet

6 today we hear something you haven't stated so far?

7 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a reference to that transcript from

8 yesterday?

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I think we'll need some time to

10 clarify this and we shouldn't waste any more time to the Chamber. Perhaps

11 we can clarify and verify this and then we will let you know at a later

12 stage.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, are you challenging this log-book?

14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So are you saying it's falsified or -- I mean, what

16 are you saying about it?

17 MR. CEPIC: No, Your Honour, but I would like just to check is

18 it -- was it -- the witness able to -- to give us information about this

19 diary.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're not challenging it at the moment? You're

21 just exploring -- you're sort of fishing for possible loop-holes, are you?

22 MR. CEPIC: I just would like to know: Was the witness qualified

23 to -- to give us information about this diary.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Carry on.

25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3027

1 Q. [Interpretation] You said that up until 1987 you kept log-books.

2 I presume that was up until the moment when you caused a train accident in

3 which several people sustained serious injuries and you were suspended for

4 six months. Is that correct?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer --

6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't answer that question. I'd like to know the

8 relevance of that?

9 MR. CEPIC: From --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And this is --

11 MR. CEPIC: -- 1987 --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah --

13 MR. CEPIC: From 1987 until 1999 this witness wasn't in charge to

14 fill this diary, to have any contact with diary, to know anything about

15 diary.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. But --

17 MR. CEPIC: Because he was a cashier in the cargo department.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but what's the relevance of the question? If

19 you're accepting that he -- he kept a diary up until 1987, what's the

20 issue that the question you've just asked goes to?

21 MR. CEPIC: Did he knows the rules? For example, if they change

22 something in the meantime, numbers, codes, rules of transport company,

23 railway transport company of Belgrade. He wasn't in charge for that. He

24 was in charge for -- as a cashier in cargo department, not for diaries,

25 not for transport diaries.

Page 3028

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And are you saying, Mr. Cepic, that he has

2 misrepresented the diary yesterday -- the log-book yesterday? Are you

3 saying that he has --

4 MR. CEPIC: I'm not sure --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: -- given false information? Is that your position?

6 MR. CEPIC: I've been trying to find, is he qualified to give us

7 correct information? I've been trying. I'm not from transport company; I

8 haven't got that experience.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we will not prevent you from pursuing the

11 line that you're pursuing, but we will not allow you to ask the question

12 that was posed.

13 Now, Mr. Hannis, do you have something else to say on that?

14 MR. HANNIS: Related to that, Your Honour, if he was going to ask

15 a question like that, I have no documents released to me. I would like to

16 know the foundation for that question.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: But the question is irrelevant --

18 MR. HANNIS: I agree.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to the issue here, although the line of

20 examination may not be irrelevant.

21 So you'll need to proceed along proper lines, Mr. Cepic, in

22 exploring this issue.

23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I do apologise for the lack

24 of my experience in the cross-examination. I've been trying to do my best

25 before this Honourable Trial Chamber. I think that my colleagues will

Page 3029

1 challenge this topic, so I will move on, if you allow me.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, they may encounter the same difficulty as

3 you, Mr. Cepic, but we shall see.

4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bucaliu, you mentioned that you gave

6 assistance to the so-called KLA by transporting a soldier. Could you tell

7 me when this happened and how did it come about?

8 A. I didn't say I assisted the KLA. I said that I helped the son of

9 a friend of mine, to transport him from one place to another. That person

10 was a member in the KLA.

11 Q. But just now you confirmed that that person was a member of the

12 KLA.

13 A. Yes, he was a member of the KLA.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: You were also -- you were also asked, Mr. Bucaliu,

15 when this happened.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened in 1998. It must have

17 been October of 1998. I am not very sure about the exact time.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In the transcript in the Milosevic case on page 2123, line 5 -- or

21 rather, lines 5 through 8, you said that at that time there was fighting

22 in Sar Planina between the KLA on the one side, and that in that fighting

23 that particular soldier of the KLA was wounded. Could you tell me in what

24 village you actually took in this wounded soldier of the KLA.

25 A. I took him from Varrosh village and took him to Softaj village.

Page 3030

1 Q. All of that is in the municipality of Urosevac, these two villages

2 that you just referred to, right?

3 A. Yes. Both villages are part of Ferizaj municipality.

4 Q. Were there any other contacts in that period, that is to say in

5 1998, with the KLA? On your part, that is.

6 A. No, I didn't have any contacts with the KLA during that period.

7 And until the end of the war, I never had any contacts with them.

8 Q. And are you aware of terrorist attacks launched by the so-called

9 KLA in the territory of the municipality of Urosevac, like on the 3rd of

10 April in the village of Grebno, where 11 ethnic Serbs were attacked? Are

11 you aware of that?

12 A. I am not aware of that.

13 Q. Do you know that on the same day, in the village of Gatnja in the

14 same municipality, terrorists asked local Albanians to join them and the

15 latter refused?

16 A. Your Honour, I am not here to testify to this. These are things

17 of no interest to me and I have no knowledge of that. This would just

18 waste our time. I don't know why he's asking me these questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed, Mr. Bucaliu, and thank you for

20 reminding me to do my job.

21 But Mr. Cepic, the Slobodan Milosevic style of cross-examination

22 will not go down well here, I can tell you. And this -- this method of --

23 MR. CEPIC: I understand, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: -- putting propositions that you have a pretty

25 confident idea the witness is going to know nothing about is not an

Page 3031

1 appropriate way to conduct cross-examination in this particular trial.

2 MR. CEPIC: I understood, Your Honour. I just asked for the

3 neighbourhood villages. I do apologise to this Honourable Trial Chamber

4 if I waste some time.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. I haven't got any further questions.


7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No further

8 questions.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

11 Mr. Aleksic.

12 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

13 morning. I assume that I'm going to be the one who's going to have

14 problems with this log-book, perhaps.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bucaliu. I am Aleksandar

17 Aleksic, attorney-at-law, and together with our lead counsel,

18 Mr. Ackerman, and with my colleague, Mr. Aleksandar Vujic, I am on the

19 defence team of General Nebojsa Pavkovic.

20 On behalf of this Defence team, I am going to put a few sets of

21 questions to you. I'll try to be as accurate as possible when I put these

22 questions, and I am going to ask you to give me the briefest possible

23 answers to my questions, possibly yes or no only. Would that be all

24 right?

25 A. I will try. Depending on your questions, I will answer.

Page 3032

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. I am going to start my line of

2 questioning with something that my colleague Mr. Cepic started and that

3 has to do with assistance that you gave to a member of the KLA -- or

4 actually, sorry, before that.

5 You gave two statements to the OTP, to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor of this court. And you testified in the Milosevic case on the

7 12th and 13th of March, 2002. In addition to that, the first statement

8 that you gave to any organisation that we are aware of and that has to do

9 with the events that you are testifying about is a statement made to an

10 international called the International Crisis Group. Is that right? That

11 was in Macedonia in the Stankovac camp, Stankovac I?

12 A. The statement I gave in Stankovac in Skopje, they were sent to the

13 offices of the Tribunal in Skopje. So the only statement I gave was the

14 one I gave to the Tribunal staff in Skopje.

15 Q. You are saying that you did not give any statement to an

16 organisation called the International Crisis Group while you were in the

17 Stankovac camp, right?

18 A. No, I didn't give any other statements to any other body.

19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry. I would

20 like to ask that we show 4D12 on e-court, please.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. -- we shall do that, Mr. Aleksic, but the

22 witness has acknowledged he did give a statement. The question is where,

23 if you can clarify that. And it may be that he's not aware of the exact

24 identity of the group that took the statement. But let's see it and see

25 if that clarifies anything.

Page 3033

1 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, I have just

2 been informed now that it's not there. I would kindly ask the usher to

3 put the B/C/S version of the statement on the ELMO for the witness, and

4 for the Trial Chamber we have sufficient copies in English.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the English please be

6 placed on the ELMO because then it can be used by all booths.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please put the English version on the ELMO and

8 give the witness the hard copy of the B/C/S, which he I think can read.

9 MR. HANNIS: I also have an Albanian version.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's even better.

11 Give the witness, please, the Albanian version.

12 Please carry on, Mr. Aleksic.

13 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. In that statement that is in front of you, you refer to -- or

15 rather, there is an incident number 2 that is mentioned and then the

16 second sentence that is -- the sentence that I'm referring to.

17 "On the 4th of April, 1999, two buses arrived, two houses were

18 burned, and that's when the road to the village was blocked."

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we cannot hear the speaker

20 because other microphones are on in the court-room.

21 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Thank you. And then, Mr. Bucaliu, as you were testifying in the

25 case against Slobodan Milosevic in the direct examination by Ms. Romano,

Page 3034

1 on page 2063 of the transcript, in response to her question about the

2 burning of houses you said: "On the 3rd of April, that's when the

3 torching took place -- sorry, it was on the 5th of April."

4 And then on the same page in line 16 you say: "Four houses were

5 burned."

6 And yesterday on page 71 of the transcript, lines 18 and 19, you

7 said that two houses were burned.

8 And just one more thing in relation to this. Finally, in the

9 cross-examination when you were cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic on

10 page 2088, line 1 -- or rather, lines 1 through 4, in response to similar

11 questions put by him your answer was: "Possibly I referred to the wrong

12 date for the first four houses that were burned."

13 Is that correct?

14 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I object. That's a compound

15 question. I'm not sure which he's being asked to answer.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I'm not sure about that, Mr. Hannis. I'm

17 waiting to hear how the answer goes. Let's hear.

18 Can you answer that question, Mr. Bucaliu, or do you wish it

19 broken down into smaller pieces?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the answer was given by the

21 gentleman himself. The date may have been put wrong. I didn't pay much

22 attention to the exact date. What is important for me was the event that

23 happened.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, he's putting to you a question that in your

25 evidence you said that four -- your evidence in Milosevic, you said that

Page 3035

1 there were four houses burned on the 5th of April and that yesterday you

2 said there were two. Now, he's looking for clarification of that.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying this. Yesterday I said

4 two and at that time I said four.

5 You should know that seven and a half years have passed, and to be

6 frank with you you may not be very exact as to the number. What matters

7 for me is that some houses were burned. It may have been two, three, or

8 four.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 Mr. Aleksic.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Thank you to Mr. Bucaliu, too. I understand it's been quite a

13 while, but on page 2088 --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that they cannot hear the

15 speaker because other microphones are on in the court-room.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I just ask if anyone who's not speaking to put

17 the microphone off, please, because it seems to be disturbing the

18 interpreters. It's probably me of course, but I'll try to keep as quiet

19 as possible.

20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I'll repeat my question, Mr. Bucaliu. I beg your pardon. On

22 page 2088 of the transcript in the Slobodan Milosevic case, line 12, you

23 said: "Possibly I mentioned the wrong date in the case of the first

24 houses."

25 Is that correct? And then I can move on to another question.

Page 3036

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to continue along the lines of

3 something that Mr. Cepic started dealing with, and that is the assistance

4 that you gave to this KLA soldier. I would kindly ask you to look at --

5 or actually, I don't know whether you have your second statement, the one

6 that you gave in 2001. If you don't, I have an English copy here and an

7 Albanian copy as well.

8 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] So could the usher please assist us.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I be clear on the purpose of this line of

10 cross-examination.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this statement that

12 I have just referred to now, the witness spoke in a different context of

13 the time when he helped this soldier, about when it happened. So that's

14 what I would like to explore.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And how is that going to help us in deciding the

16 questions that are before us in the case?

17 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move

18 on to something else.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

20 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, yesterday on page 72 and 73 of the transcript in

22 response to different questions, you spoke of how you distinguished

23 between this first group of uniformed men and these others who came on the

24 5th of April. And then in response to the question put by Mr. Hannis,

25 namely how old the soldiers were who had been in the village before that

Page 3037

1 and who you described as the regular army, and in response to this

2 question you said: On the first day these three soldiers were around 40

3 years old. Later on I saw some other soldiers, some younger, some older.

4 Now, you were born in 1957, Mr. Bucaliu. Is that right?

5 A. That is right.

6 Q. And as you said yesterday, you did your military service in the

7 Yugoslav People's Army in 1976/1977; right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Which is to say that at that time -- which is to say that at that

10 time you were 20 or 21, like most soldiers who do their regular military

11 service?

12 A. I was 19 when I did my military service.

13 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Bucaliu. My question is whether you know in your

14 day and later on what the age limit was -- or rather, what the maximum age

15 was for soldiers, when -- at what age were men called up to do their

16 regular military service. That's my question.

17 A. That was from 18 to approximately 32. This is what I think.

18 Q. I'm putting it to you that the age span was 18 to 27.

19 But I will move on to my last topic. Mr. Bucaliu, I mean -- well,

20 it has to do with trains and the train log-book.

21 Mr. Bucaliu, yesterday on page 84 of the transcript, lines 10

22 and 11 and so on, you said that before the 24th of March there were ten

23 trains within 24 hours; five in one direction, five in another direction.

24 Is that right?

25 A. We can look at the log-book. Some day there were ten, some days

Page 3038

1 not. Give me a date.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Aleksic, can you indicate to me the purpose of

3 this line of cross-examination now?

4 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm trying to prove

5 that in the period from the 25th of March until the 3rd of April nothing

6 much was happening -- or rather, the trains, as the witness said, were not

7 operating for five days, yes. And after that there was only one train in

8 two days. I mean, absolutely there wasn't any major increase, in terms of

9 trains that is.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Why can't you just make these submissions based on

11 the log-book in due course at the end of the case? I don't think anyone's

12 arguing with you about that. If all you're going to do is get the witness

13 state what is obvious from the log, there's no point. We don't have the

14 luxury of that -- time for that sort of exercise.

15 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. In yesterday's transcript page 86, lines 21 through 25, and

17 page 87, lines 1 through 3, you were answering questions put by my learned

18 friend Mr. Hannis and you were talking about train 31781. And he also

19 mentioned 37890, that was an even number, and that those were the two last

20 trains for the 31st of March. And then he asked you about this arrow. He

21 asked you about 37891, what that arrow meant, and you said that that meant

22 that the train did not stop in Urosevac. And now I am asking you to

23 kindly look at the other train, the even-numbered one, that returned from

24 the border, if I understood it correctly, 378 -- just a moment, please.

25 Yes, yes. ERN number K0218505. I see an arrow there, too. Mr. Bucaliu,

Page 3039

1 what does that arrow mean?

2 A. Can you please indicate the date you want me to answer?

3 Q. Yes, of course, Mr. Bucaliu. The 31st of March, the last train

4 for the 31st of March. So the page is K0218505.

5 A. You asked me what does the arrow mean after the train number. I

6 already said, even yesterday, that the arrows indicate that the train

7 passed through the Ferizaj station but didn't stop there.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bucaliu, in relation to some of these trains,

9 for example, the next one, the first -- the first train on the 1st of

10 April, it's just a line that's there rather than an arrow. Does that mean

11 the same thing or does that mean something different?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should have been an arrow. If it

13 is a line, it should be horizontal, otherwise it should have been an

14 arrow. But the person who has noted down that should have put an arrow

15 also there.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: What would a horizontal line mean then?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the same page you have the 29th

18 and you see a horizontal line, which means that the train arrived at

19 Ferizaj but didn't -- stopped there, didn't go on. And on the same

20 occasion 7892 train set off from the Ferizaj station. This train --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... at Ferizaj,

22 yes, I understand that. Thank you.

23 Now, is there anything else on the log-book, Mr. Aleksic?

24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question and I'm going

25 to finish my cross-examination.

Page 3040

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, carry on with that question, please.

2 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, in this document that you explained to us in detail

4 there is no information about the number of passengers and number of train

5 cars. Is that right?

6 A. Unfortunately, yes, it's true. There is no number for the

7 carriages and for the passengers.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu.

9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

10 further questions.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Aleksic.

12 Mr. Visnjic, do you have any questions -- Mr. Sepenuk.

13 MR. SEPENUK: No, Your Honour, no questions.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 Mr. Lukic, do you have questions?

16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I have a few and I'm afraid that it

17 is -- they would be mainly regarding this log-book, but I think that you

18 will accept my reasoning why do I have to ask these questions.


20 Well, we will take up these questions when we resume at five

21 minutes to 11.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3041

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bucaliu. My name is Branko

3 Lukic, and together with my learned friend Dragan Ivetic and

4 Mr. Ogrizovic, I appear today on behalf of Sreten Lukic.

5 Yesterday we heard that you worked on keeping the transportation

6 log-books up until 1987 and after that you continued your employment with

7 the railway company. Would you agree with me if I said that it was

8 standard occurrence to see or to have police escort on every train. The

9 same would go for 1986, 1987, as well as for 1996, 1997, and afterwards?

10 A. It could be a normal occurrence, but local trains were not

11 escorted by the police. International trains, yes, but not the local

12 ones.

13 Q. Are you trying to say that local trains never had any police

14 escort?

15 A. I can say -- I can't say that they never had any police escort,

16 but this police escort was not on regular basis.

17 Q. What about the presence of the police in a railway station in

18 order to maintain law and order and to try and prevent any criminal acts

19 from happening?

20 A. You could say it is a common thing, but it wasn't again on regular

21 basis. From time to time there was police presence in railway stations,

22 but not always.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 By leave of the Chamber, I wanted to ask you something concerning

25 the transportation log-book. Based on yesterday's transcript when His

Page 3042

1 Honourable Judge Bonomy asked Mr. Hannis: [In English] "What in all these

2 details of the trains have we to pay attention to, just the trains that

3 Mr. Bucaliu was on?"

4 [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis responded: [In English] "No, Your

5 Honour, he's talking about the general train schedule, how many trains

6 went on an average. You can see from the log-book that the number of

7 trains increased. You can read from his testimony about how additional

8 cars were put on it."

9 [Interpretation] Mr. Bucaliu, it is our Defence's position, and

10 you will say otherwise if you disagree, that the number of trains after

11 the 25th of March, 1999, until the 19th of June, 1999, when we have the

12 last entry in this log-book, that the number of trains was drastically

13 reduced. Since I don't think the Bench has the translation of the full

14 document, I wanted to put the following to you and perhaps you can tell us

15 whether you know something about it.

16 During the 88 days, if there were ten trains a day, it would

17 amount to 880 trains in total. I counted the trains entered in this

18 log-book, and in the aforementioned period instead of 880 there were 228

19 trains. Is it your testimony still that the number of trains increased

20 after the beginning of the NATO campaign?

21 A. Yes, the number of trains increased after the NATO air-strikes

22 began during the period from the 31st of March and onwards, but then there

23 was another period when the number of trains was reduced. And as for this

24 period, when the number of trains was increased, these were trains that

25 were running outside the normal schedule. These were trains that were

Page 3043

1 designated to transport people from Pristina.

2 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, I was trying to save some time rather than going from

3 one day to the next in this log-book. It is my position that out of the

4 88 days there were only two days during which there were more than ten

5 trains a day. This was on the 2nd of April and the 3rd of April. In the

6 other 86 days out of a total of 88 there were less than ten trains a day.

7 And I'll tell you the following: There were not nine trains on any of the

8 86 days. There were eight trains on only one day, on the 31st of March,

9 1999. Seven trains a day, that happened on two days. Six trains a day,

10 four days. Five trains a day, not a single day. Four trains a day, on

11 nine different days. Three trains a day, on five different days. Two

12 trains a day, on 53 days --


14 MR. LUKIC: I have only two more numbers, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but so what. This is a speech you are

16 making --

17 MR. LUKIC: This is absolutely in contradiction what this witness

18 is claiming and this is -- he is brought because of this. This will show

19 you us that the number of trains --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: This is a speech. Just a moment.

21 Mr. Bucaliu, are you saying that the log-book accurately records

22 all the trains that pass through the station?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is recorded very accurately.

24 No train can pass through the station without being marked in the

25 log-book.

Page 3044

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do you need to ask these questions?

2 MR. LUKIC: To impeach this witness. He is claiming that the

3 number of trains, as we heard right now, increased --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean impeach the witness? You've got

5 the document that on the face of it contradicts what he's saying. What

6 more do you need? You just get his answers repeating that he disagrees

7 with what you're putting to him. Is it not sufficient that he accepts

8 that this is an accurate record and then you can point to the point that

9 it doesn't show more trains?

10 MR. LUKIC: If that satisfies Your Honours, that satisfies me as

11 well.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: What else would you achieve by going through a

13 detailed cross-examination of the numbers? Tell me what you think you are

14 going to achieve by that.

15 MR. LUKIC: You wanted to figure out yesterday as well from the

16 Prosecution why this witness is brought in to testify.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, indeed.

18 MR. LUKIC: I was confused as well because he is claiming, based

19 on this document, that there is the increase of the trains.


21 MR. LUKIC: That actually deported people outside the Kosovo.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, all of this is obvious from the transcript in

23 the Milosevic trial, is it not?

24 MR. LUKIC: No --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't think --

Page 3045

1 MR. LUKIC: I don't think so.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

3 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry. Maybe I don't read that --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: If you read the log -- well, okay, you can. But I

5 really don't see how you're going to advance matters by going through a

6 speech of listing all these figures.

7 MR. LUKIC: Can I read two more numbers?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: No. You can proceed to something else.

9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Give me one moment, Your Honour.


12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I have only a few questions, maybe only a couple.

15 Mr. Bucaliu, having worked with the railway company did you know

16 of the fact that movement in the border area is limited in peacetime so

17 that passengers cannot leave a train or a bus on which they are

18 travelling. They can't even get out of a passenger vehicle. Do you know

19 that movement in the immediate border area is restricted?

20 A. Yes, I know that.

21 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. We have no further questions.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, if you look at page 2127 of the

23 transcript.

24 MR. LUKIC: Give me one moment.

25 Yes, Your Honour, I'm on that page. Can you help me with the

Page 3046

1 line.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I'm just -- from then on you'll see that the

3 Court in that trial questioned the witness about the log-book. Are you

4 telling me it's not obvious from that that he was giving evidence on the

5 basis of the material in the log?

6 MR. LUKIC: It is obvious. That's why I'm not clear with the

7 Prosecution's claim that it shows the increase of the number of trains.

8 If they stipulate that there is no increase, there wouldn't be any

9 confusion, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

11 Mr. Hannis, re-examination?

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

14 Q. Mr. Bucaliu, when Mr. Cepic asked you about when your uncle's

15 truck was taken away, did any of the Serb soldiers advise you that you

16 were entitled to be compensated for that?

17 A. I already said that they did not invite me to any right of

18 compensation. Simply, the keys were grabbed from my hand. He said that

19 he would just want to check what is in that truck, but he didn't do that.

20 He simply started the engine and left, and this is the truck they used to

21 loot some warehouses, Albanian warehouses.

22 Q. I take it then you didn't get any receipt for your truck as well?

23 A. No, no receipt at all.

24 Q. The last question I have for you relates to the log-book --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll ignore the reference to the looting of

Page 3047

1 Albanian warehouses, Mr. Hannis. That's material -- that hasn't arisen --

2 doesn't arise out of cross-examination.

3 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour.

4 Q. With regard to page 20, line 14 from today, Mr. Cepic asked you

5 about the log-book and the fact that your signature doesn't appear in that

6 log-book because during this period of time, as you testified, you were

7 not keeping the book. But there were other signatures in the book;

8 correct?

9 A. Of course. These are the signatures on my colleagues who made the

10 entries in the log-book.

11 Q. And you recognise those from having worked with those individuals

12 and being familiar with their handwriting?

13 A. Yes. I can recognise the signature of each and every one of them.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. HANNIS: No further questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

17 Now, Mr. Cepic, the map was marked by the witness, and if you wish

18 it to be an exhibit, we would give it an IC number. I understand that a

19 picture of the marked map has been taken and therefore is available for a

20 number now. So shall we give it a number?

21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 For clarification, as regards the map the witness said he drew the

23 map, and I don't know what validity or what probative value it would carry

24 once admitted.

25 [In English] -- clarification on that map, it is just one

Page 3048

1 clarification. It is so difficult if I see four Cs, letters on that map,

2 which is insignia of Serbian -- that is a Serbian insignia.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Well, that may be, but what we have is the

4 evidence that the witness has given. We have the document. You wish it

5 to --

6 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour, I understand.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: -- to be given an exhibit number and that will now

8 be given to it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC32, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you, Mr. Bucaliu. That completes your

13 evidence. Thank you for coming here to give it, and you're now free to

14 leave.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, as well.

16 We couldn't elaborate many things during my testimony, but I hope you have

17 the transcript of my testimony from the Milosevic trial. But my opinion

18 is that many things remained unelaborated during this testimony.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we have a -- we have a full account of all

20 the evidence you gave in the Milosevic trial. So thank you very much.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, who is your next witness?

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, Ms. Carter will lead the next witness,

24 who is Florim Krasniqi.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And the basis of this witness's evidence?

Page 3049

1 MS. CARTER: He is 92 bis (B), Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: The paragraphs of the indictment that are dealt

3 with in this evidence?

4 MS. CARTER: That would be paragraph 72(j) and 73, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 MS. CARTER: I apologise, Your Honour, and additionally 75 and 77

7 generally.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration by

12 reading aloud the document which will now be placed before you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Krasniqi, we already have before us information

18 in written statements which you have given, so we know a lot of the

19 material that you can present to the Tribunal already. The purpose of the

20 hearing today is to enable counsel who appear for the Prosecution and for

21 the accused to ask you questions, either to add to what you've said, to

22 clarify what you've said, or to challenge what you've said. The important

23 thing, because we already have so much material in front of us, is that

24 you listen carefully to each question and answer that specific question

25 and try and confine your answers to the narrow boundaries of the question.

Page 3050

1 If one of the counsel wants more information, then he or she will simply

2 ask you another question. It's as simple as that. So please restrict

3 your answers as far as possible to answer the particular question posed.

4 The first counsel to ask these questions will be for the

5 Prosecution, and that will be Ms. Carter.

6 Ms. Carter.

7 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. The 92 bis package involved

8 with this witness is P number 02269. I additionally have a hard copy of

9 the witness's statement in Albanian that I'd like to have him take before

10 him.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I -- I have at the moment, and you can

12 perhaps confirm that this is accurate. I have two witness statements. Is

13 that wrong?

14 MS. CARTER: That is correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And does he -- is he being given a copy of both of

16 these?

17 MS. CARTER: He's given a copy of the primary statement. The

18 additional statement was simply on the -- to correct one item. I can

19 certainly give him a copy of that as well.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: So the one you've given him is the 23rd of April,

21 1999?

22 MS. CARTER: Correct.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3051

1 Examination by Ms. Carter:

2 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when you came in for proofing, did you have an

3 opportunity to review this statement?

4 A. [No verbal response].

5 Q. Can you answer audibly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you find that the statement is clear and accurate as the

8 statement you had given on April 23rd of 1999?

9 A. Yes, it's 100 per cent accurate.

10 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, I would request at this time that the

11 statement be tendered into evidence.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


14 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, can you please introduce yourself to the Court,

15 spelling your first and last name, please.

16 A. Florim Krasniqi.

17 Q. And can you spell your last name, please.

18 A. K-r-a-s-n-i-q-i.

19 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you are a Kosovar Albanian who once lived in Kosovo.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, I still live in Kosova.

22 Q. And specifically, your testimony involves the municipality of

23 Urosevac. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, I would like to direct you to pages 7 and 8 of your statement

Page 3052

1 in the Albanian; in the English, I'm directing to page 6.

2 Sir, I'm going to ask you briefly about the forces of the FRY in

3 Serbia who were involved in the incidents in Urosevac at the time of your

4 testimony. At a paragraph you indicated that when your convoy was stopped

5 it was stopped by both soldiers as well as paramilitary. Can you please

6 explain to the Court what the difference to you is between a soldier and a

7 paramilitary?

8 A. The difference between a regular soldier of the Yugoslav army and

9 a paramilitary, or called in everyday life reservist, is as follows: A

10 regular soldier is of the age span 18 to 30, while the soldiers who were

11 mobilised only for extraordinary times, they are older than 30. So their

12 age span is between 30 and 60.

13 Q. So when you were indicating that there are paramilitaries involved

14 on page 6 of the English statement, you're indicating those paramilitaries

15 are VJ reservists as opposed to some other type of unit. Is that correct?

16 A. Reservists of the Yugoslav army.

17 Q. You indicated that there was a difference with regards to their

18 age between the regular soldiers and these reservists. Were there any

19 other differences in regards to their appearance or their uniforms?

20 A. Another difference between regular soldiers and reservists, except

21 for the age span, is their appearance. Another one would be that the

22 regular soldiers of a regular army have a different military style,

23 whereas the older soldiers have another style. They can be not shaved or

24 not with a regular length of hair.

25 Q. Did they wear similar or the same uniforms between the reservists

Page 3053

1 and the regular soldiers?

2 A. For both sides it was a same uniform, the green uniform or called

3 in the Yugoslav army SMB, the olive-green-grey uniform. It was a

4 camouflage uniform, a mixture of green and yellow.

5 Q. Sir, you seem to have some specifics in regards to what type of

6 uniforms the army wore. Did you have any sort of military service

7 yourself or how have you learned the specifics of the VJ uniforms?

8 A. I've learned the specifics of the uniforms because I have also

9 been a soldier of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the past. I used

10 to wear this uniform, and I can say what it looks like.

11 Q. At what time did you serve within the VJ army?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, a soldier of the SFRY

13 army.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1985/1986, that's when I

15 completed my military service.


17 Q. Prior to page 6 in the English you make several references to

18 soldiers; however, you don't make any other references to paramilitaries.

19 That would be on page 5 of the English. Had you come across these

20 paramilitaries, also known as reservists, prior to them stopping your

21 convoy at the end of your time?

22 A. I've always mentioned the word "soldier." Now, all these men with

23 weapons in a war, regardless of whether they are soldiers or regular army,

24 they're all mobilised under one uniform, under one command. Therefore, it

25 is not important to make a distinction between paramilitary or military.

Page 3054

1 The important thing is that they were mobilised under the Yugoslav flag.

2 Q. You indicate that they were all mobilised under the flag. How do

3 you know that there is some type of coordination between these two groups?

4 A. In my opinion there was a coordination between these groups

5 because they were mobilised in one uniform. If they were other groups,

6 they would have worn other types of uniforms or civilian clothes. But

7 they were in a Yugoslav uniform.

8 Q. At the times that you were able to see reservists and regular VJ

9 soldiers interacting, did they interact all as one group or were they

10 separated in different locations?

11 A. While I was passing through the village of Sojeva, I've seen them

12 in one group, and as to how they manipulated and what kind of other forms

13 of manipulation they used I don't know because I wasn't present there.

14 But as I was passing through the village of Sojeva, I've seen them as one

15 group.

16 Q. Further down on page 6 in the English you indicate at some point

17 during the convoy you come across police check-points. Is that correct?

18 In the Albanian it will be pages 7 to 8.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the time that you see the police check-points, was there any

21 interaction between the police and the VJ?

22 A. I would like to know to which place you're referring.

23 Q. You indicated that shortly after the next soldiers, both

24 reservists as well as regular soldiers, that you headed towards the

25 direction of Urosevac. You continued to see destruction, and at some

Page 3055

1 point when you hit the city limits of Urosevac you came across a police

2 check-point. Is that correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Can you tell me, was there any type of interaction between the

5 police and the military?

6 A. During the expulsion from the village as we set off in the

7 direction of Dardani village and took to Ferizaj road, we turned right to

8 Sojeva village. And there we saw a check-point, I've mentioned it in the

9 statement, that there the -- the column was halted for a while. Then we

10 continued in the direction of Ferizaj.

11 At the entrance into Ferizaj there were two policemen. They were

12 traffic policemen. They only made a sign with their hands for us to go

13 back in the direction of Skopje, in the direction of the border with

14 Macedonia.

15 As for soldiers, I have seen them in the village of Sojeva and

16 Bibaj.

17 Q. As you were being deported out of Kosovo while you were on the

18 convoy lines outside of these check-points, were there any military or

19 police escorting you or guiding you along those routes?

20 A. You mean from Ferizaj on 15th of April to Macedonia?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. The convoy of buses heading to Macedonia was not escorted. It was

23 only the buses loaded with people and heading towards Elez Han. It was

24 not under escort.

25 Q. Now I would like to direct you to pages 3 and 4 to the Albanian,

Page 3056

1 and pages 2 and 3 in the English, and I want to discuss with you the

2 occurrences that took place on or about the 4th of April of 1999.

3 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: I think that when we provide the references we provide

6 for all three languages because -- or four languages -- that are in use,

7 so I would kindly ask my learned friend to provide us with B/C/S version

8 as well.

9 MS. CARTER: That would be B/C/S pages 2 and 3 as well.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


12 Q. Throughout pages 2 and 3, you indicate that there was a mass

13 influx of people into your village. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And while these people began to enter your village, you make

16 several references within your statement that there was some sort --

17 originally there was a registration period that then stopped and then some

18 type of group is providing housing to these individuals who were entering

19 your village. Is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Can you please tell the Court what was this organisation that was

22 active within your village who was assisting these internally displaced

23 persons.

24 A. Yes. With the outbreak of the war, first it broke out in Drenica.

25 From there the population began to be displaced. Since they had not left

Page 3057

1 Kosova at that time, we undertook to do this job on a voluntary basis,

2 trying to help the displaced people --

3 Q. Let me stop you for just a moment. You're indicating that "we are

4 beginning to help them," who is "we"?

5 A. My means of "we" I have in mind, we, the Kosova people.

6 Q. Within your village was there some sort of humanitarian

7 organisation that was providing assistance as well?

8 A. We were a humanitarian group in our village who engaged in

9 assisting these people.

10 Q. Was it a formal group such as the CDHRF, the LDK, some other type

11 of organisation who was providing assistance within your village?

12 A. We were members of the LDK, but this thing that I mentioned we did

13 on a voluntary basis.

14 Q. When you say that you were a member of the LDK at that time, what

15 type of assistance or what type of activity was taking place with the LDK

16 within your village?

17 A. At that time the LDK engaged mainly in humanitarian issues, and

18 this went on from the 1990s onwards. For example, we worked on education.

19 I'm talking from the 1990s to 1998, the beginning of the 1990s. As I

20 said, we dealt with education, trying to provide minimum assistance to the

21 teachers with the help of the poor population who provided food-stuffs and

22 such elementary aid. This is what I mean by humanitarian aid.

23 Q. When it came to 1999 after the NATO -- or actually shortly before

24 and during the NATO bombing campaign, what type of assistance was the LDK

25 providing within your village?

Page 3058

1 A. Look, until the NATO air-strikes we may say that LDK existed.

2 After the air-strikes, LDK ceased performing former function and dealt

3 only with the humanitarian assistance dealing with the crisis. Prior to

4 1998 LDK was there, and part of it was the emergency group.

5 Q. The humanitarian assistance that was being provided, you had

6 indicated previously that it began with registering the internally

7 displaced once they arrived in your village. Is that correct?

8 A. This began in 1998, when the war broke out, and the flow of

9 refugees coming from one place, from one commune or municipality, to

10 another was not that big. It was easy for us to identify the people who

11 were displaced. So up until the time of the NATO bombing, we could

12 register the individuals or the families that came to our village. But a

13 little -- prior to the NATO air-strikes when the war started to rage, it

14 was impossible for us to keep registering these people.

15 Q. Once the formal registration abilities stopped, did you still

16 continue to take in people within your village?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, speaking for myself, I'm not finding

18 any added value in this line of examination, unless there's something in

19 particular you're veering towards.

20 MS. CARTER: I am, Your Honour. I'll try to specifically ask the

21 question.

22 Q. Sir, when you were involved in the registration period, and even

23 when people were coming into your village later on, was it a part of the

24 LDK's responsibility and ultimately part of your responsibility as being a

25 member of the LDK to interview the persons who were arriving in your

Page 3059

1 village to determine what circumstances they were leaving prior to

2 entering your village?

3 A. We continued to question them, to interview them, but it was hard

4 for us to understand what was going on from their recounts, because they

5 were so scared that they were unable to be coherent in what they were

6 telling us. It took some days for us to be able to learn something from

7 them, maybe after a week or so. I remember one instance, a mother who had

8 given birth to a child at night and in the morning the Serbs had drove her

9 away from the village. So you can imagine that situation. She gave birth

10 to her baby at about 2.00, 3.00 in the morning, and at 8.00 in the morning

11 she was driven out of her house.

12 Q. Specifically, as is detailed within your statement, you talk about

13 several killings that take place in villages that were not your own. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. As a member of the LDK at the time who was providing the

17 humanitarian assistance, was it part of your job to learn about what had

18 occurred to these people and try to determine who was involved?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the point that you began to interview these people,

21 specifically I would like to address what occurred within the -- the

22 gentleman by the name of Hasim Sahiti in Pojatista which is referenced on

23 page 3 of the English, page 3 of the B/C/S, and page 4 -- excuse me --

24 yes, page 4 of the Albanian. You start beginning to describe what had

25 taken place with Mr. Sahiti. Is that correct?

Page 3060

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. During your investigations with what took place with Mr. Sahiti,

3 were you able to interview and speak with a number of people who provided

4 additional details that corroborated what he was telling you?

5 A. Yes, I was.

6 Q. You began to become aware of the details of the killings

7 themselves as well as who the victims were. Is that correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Okay. At that time you indicated that there were five men who

10 died. You'd indicated that there was a gentleman by the name of Shaban

11 Esati, a man by the name of Adem Esati, a man by the name of Haxhi Godeni,

12 as well as Osman Mehmeti. Is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. For some reason within the statements, Haxhi's name is given

15 quotation marks. Is that his name or some sort of moniker that was given

16 to him for some other reason?

17 A. Yes, there is. Haxhi's name is in inverted commas because his

18 correct name is Bajram. The name Haxhi is used because, according to our

19 religion, we are supposed as Muslims to go to the Mecca, and the person

20 who returns from the Mecca is called Haxhi from that time on. So I didn't

21 know his name and during the funeral ceremony I found out that he was a

22 Haxhi because of the cap he was -- he had on his head. And I said Haxhi

23 was from Godenj village living in Ferizaj. That's why I called him Haxhi

24 Godeni. But afterwards I found out that his true name was -- real name

25 was Bajram.

Page 3061

1 Q. Okay. You also indicated that you were present at the burials of

2 some of these men. Is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Ob English page 4, B/C/S page 4, and Albanian page 5 you

5 indicate --

6 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. This is really not helping

7 us. We need a paragraph number, and we provide the paragraph number each

8 time. So we have to have the paragraph number, or give us five, six

9 minutes to go through the whole page. Thank you.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, you as a trained lawyer are perfectly

11 capable of very quickly scanning a page of typed script, and it doesn't

12 help your cause to exaggerate your predicament. I agree with you that it

13 would be helpful for all of us if all the statements simply had paragraph

14 numbers rather than page numbers, but we have to do our best with what we

15 have, and the one I have certainly doesn't have paragraph numbers and I'm

16 not finding any real difficulty at the moment, but no doubt Ms. Carter

17 will do her best to assist you as far as she can.

18 MS. CARTER: In the B/C/S that would be page 4, the second full

19 paragraph.

20 Q. Sir, you'd indicated that you were present at the -- during the

21 burials of these gentlemen who died. You also indicated within that

22 paragraph that there were four grave-sites, yet you only attended the

23 funerals of three men. Can you please explain the discrepancy between

24 these two?

25 A. Yes, I can. During -- when the Yugoslav army or the Yugoslav

Page 3062

1 soldier executed these persons, they were -- their bodies remained there

2 on the spot where they were killed. Shaban Dema Esati, the first person,

3 who was about 70, his son Ademi was 45, 50, and Bajram Haxhi Godeni or

4 Haxhi Godeni as I referred to him in my statement; I explained to you I

5 didn't know his name before. The three other persons, the one from Asmir,

6 from Smir, he was wounded. He was lucky enough to escape being killed

7 because the bullet hit him in his wrist-watch -- in his pocket-watch.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the bullet ricocheted and

10 wounded him in his leg.

11 The other person, Osman Mehmeti, was wounded in the belly and on

12 his leg. He tried to drag away from the place he was shot, and he was

13 brought to my neighbourhood and administered the first aid, but because of

14 -- he had lost a lot of blood and because we lacked proper medication, he

15 died at 1.00 the next day. He was buried in the mountain too. He was

16 buried by some other persons. At that time I was dealing with other

17 people, trying to find shelter for them and provide assistance to them,

18 food-stuffs and so on. So these other people buried Osman Mehmeti in the

19 mountain.

20 After 16 or 1700 hours, one day later, after they were executed,

21 the relatives of these persons pulled out the dead bodies from that place

22 and took them to a mountain-path to that meadow that I have drawn on the

23 map. And I attended the burial ceremony of these three persons. We dug

24 some holes, about 50, 60 centimetres deep, and we buried them in their

25 clothes without moving anything. We just threw some mud over their

Page 3063

1 bodies.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi, that will be enough for

3 this incident. We have got to make some progress now. We have many other

4 things to cover.

5 MS. CARTER: Last topic, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, you had also indicated that there were any number of people

7 who were arriving within your village, and you were trying to attempt to

8 locate housing for them. What type of life or housing were these

9 internally displaced people subjected to at the time near the NATO

10 bombing?

11 A. During their displacement we tried to find shelter for them, but

12 it was hard for us. We -- sometimes we sheltered 40, 50 persons in a

13 single room. They couldn't lie down or sleep. Other than the housing, we

14 had to provide other necessities to them. We tried to accommodate them

15 anywhere, not only in houses, just for them not to be out in the street.

16 So when I say "housing," just to put them inside a place. They had a roof

17 over their heads.

18 Q. With this large influx of people within your village, was there a

19 common theme of what made them leave their homes, albeit NATO bombing,

20 Serbian aggression, or some other reason?

21 A. Serb aggression.

22 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, at this time I pass the witness.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

24 Mr. O'Sullivan.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. General Lazarevic, General Pavkovic, and

Page 3064

1 thereafter we'll follow the indictment.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi. I'm Mihajlo

6 Bakrac, Defence counsel for General Lazarevic.

7 First of all, I would like to clarify one particular point with

8 you. I don't find this clear. You said that you were a member of the

9 Democratic League of Kosovo. Is that a humanitarian organisation or a

10 political organisation?

11 A. Yes, I can explain that to you. I can tell you that after you

12 amended the constitution by force of the Socialist Federative Republic of

13 Yugoslavia you changed the status of Kosova and you registered all the

14 other parties, your parties, but not the LDK which --

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave I really

18 don't have too many questions for this witness and I can move quickly

19 through the cross-examination; however, if I keep getting this kind of

20 answer -- I mean, I did not change the constitution of Kosovo and I was

21 not --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: But the -- go back to the question. Would it not

23 be fairly obvious that it's a political organisation carrying out some

24 humanitarian work? Or is it more complicated than that?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, that's precisely what I asked.

Page 3065

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think that's fairly obvious from what we've

2 been hearing, is it not?

3 Anyway, if you feel the need to explore it further, please do. We

4 all know that the LDK is a political party. I don't think you need to

5 spell that out to us and we've heard it does some humanitarian work.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, since we've clarified this matter, we know it's a

8 political organisation.

9 Now I'm interested in the following. This organisation of yours,

10 did it strive for -- or rather, was one of its main principles striving

11 for an independent Kosovo?

12 A. With the founding of the LDK, its main objective at the beginning

13 was for Kosova to have the status of a republic in the context of the

14 SFRY; whereas after the outbreak of the war in the entire territory of the

15 former Yugoslavia the term came for Kosova. So the objective changed

16 after that, full independence for Kosova. I believe that this is common

17 knowledge, so your question seems rather ...

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. Mr. Krasniqi, I followed your testimony

19 before and I just wanted to suggest that we -- to you that it is not up to

20 you to assess the value or the validity of my questions. Could you please

21 focus on providing answers and answers alone. Thank you.

22 When did you become a member of that political organisation,

23 Mr. Krasniqi?

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, don't answer that for the moment. Don't

25 answer the question, please.

Page 3066

1 Help me to understand the relevance of all this.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave I was

3 about to discuss the topic. I wanted to know whether he was a

4 long-standing member of the Democratic League of Kosovo, and then my

5 following question would be whether he knew that there were some armed

6 members and KLA members within his organisation. This is my line of

7 questioning. I wanted to know whether he engaged in humanitarian work as

8 of 1990 or as of some later date. But I don't know whether I should get

9 into such questions because now I've revealed my intention.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do you think these questions help us? I mean,

11 what is it you're going to say? That he's lying to us? That we can't

12 rely on him? Is that what you're saying? Or is it just -- are you

13 building some case of your own about the KLA? What is the purpose of the

14 cross-examination?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to hear his

16 answers on some questions I deemed important, and if I told you everything

17 I was going to ask this witness then there was no longer need for me to

18 ask the witness those questions.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but I'm not asking you to do that. I'm

20 asking you to tell me the objective of the cross-examination. What are

21 you seeking to achieve?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I wanted to see whether his

23 organisation, for which I believe was numerous in his area, and having in

24 mind the length, duration, of his membership, to know whether it

25 participated in any armed activities. This was my main intention.

Page 3067

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, proceed to ask these questions if that -- you

2 think that that will produce the answers that will help us.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your Honour, I

4 don't believe I will get any helpful answers now. But nevertheless, I

5 will continue with my questions --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand that comment, Mr. Bakrac,

7 because you've done nothing, nothing has happened that will prevent you

8 asking the question. And we have at the moment no reason to doubt that

9 the witness will try to answer them.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Very well then, Your Honour. I will

11 continue.

12 Q. Sir, can you tell me when did you become a member of the

13 Democratic League of Kosovo?

14 A. As of 1990.

15 Q. How many members did the Democratic League of Kosovo have in your

16 village?

17 A. During the founding time, and from that time about 17 years have

18 passed, it has -- at the time there were over 100 persons, members.

19 Q. Before the outbreak of the war, before 1999, before the NATO

20 campaign, how many members did it have?

21 A. I told you, this entails a long period of time. I said over 100.

22 I cannot give you an accurate figure. I was not the secretary of the LDK

23 branch --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Krasniqi, you're being asked to estimate how

25 many members there were as at March 1999.

Page 3068

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said earlier when the

2 Prosecutor asked me that before the NATO air-strikes until January 1999,

3 the LDK functioned. After 1999, January, we all started to engage with

4 humanitarian affairs, not with party affairs.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Krasniqi, the question is a simple one. As at

6 March 1999 in your village how many members of the LDK were there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1999, March 1999, the members of

8 the Presidency of the LDK were 11, but the broad membership, this number

9 can be provided only by the secretary. I cannot give you an accurate

10 figure. I know only that they are over 160, 170 in March 1999.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

12 Mr. Bakrac.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that in the Milosevic

15 case you said that there were 200 members of the LDK. First you said 100

16 now and then in the supplemental information you said before the outbreak

17 of the war in my village there were ten members of the LDK --

18 A. I just said that ten members form the Presidency of the LDK

19 branch. This is what I said. Please understand me correctly. I just

20 stated that there were over 150, maybe 200. If I say "over 150" I may

21 mean much more than that, but I cannot give you the exact number of the

22 members because I was not the secretary of the LDK branch. I believe that

23 the membership number doesn't matter much --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Bakrac where in the supplemental

25 information do you find the figure of ten members?

Page 3069

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, paragraph 3, this is the

2 English version as well as the B/C/S: [In English] "LDK staff members in

3 the village."

4 JUDGE BONOMY: This is the main statement you are talking about on

5 the 23rd of April --

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, this is a note on supplemental

7 information dated the 1st of September, 2006.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, that's something I don't have. That's -- I

9 thought it was something that had been handed to us.

10 All right. Anyway, you have the explanation. Please carry on.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is it also true that you said that after the NATO bombings, out of

13 the ten only five members remained. This is also in the supplemental

14 information sheet.

15 A. Yes, yes. Five members remained in the leadership of the

16 humanitarian group.

17 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you say that after January 1999 you started engaging

18 in humanitarian work and that you abandoned your previous activities.

19 What were these previous activities?

20 A. The work we did before was to deal mainly with educational issue.

21 As you might know, we collected a symbolic amount of money to pay the

22 teachers, like 20, 30 Deutschmarks, as a salary. This was a kind of

23 humanitarian issue because everybody knows what the situation of education

24 in Kosova was like.

25 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I believe you will agree with me that a great number

Page 3070

1 of the Democratic League of Kosovo members were also members of the KLA

2 and that they carried arms. Is that correct?

3 A. From Ferizaj to Gjilan there wasn't any KLA army; this I know for

4 sure.

5 Q. Did you carry arms?

6 A. No.

7 Q. None of the 200 members of the Democratic League of Kosovo was

8 armed, those from your village?

9 A. Not only the 200 members of the LDK in my village, but not even a

10 single inhabitant in my village was armed.

11 Q. How do you know that?

12 A. I know that because this is where I was born, this is where I

13 lived.

14 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, when Mr. Hasima -- no, sorry, Hasim Sahiti told you

15 about that event in the village of Pojatista, he said that soldiers took

16 him and another five men to go from one house to the next and the houses

17 turned out to be empty and that after that they started leaving the

18 village and moving towards the nearby forest. Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And on that day, this being the 5th of April, the people of

21 Pojatista arrived in your village. Is that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Is it also correct that in the Milosevic trial regarding the

24 recovery of the bodies of these people you said the following. This was

25 page 4483 of the transcript: "We learned about that because the son of

Page 3071

1 Osman Mehmeti and Shaban's son Muharrem went there after Hasim had told

2 them where the firing was. Their lives were in danger because the

3 shooting continued while they were trying to approach the location. They

4 crawled to that place and they recovered the wounded and the killed."

5 If the village of Pojatista was empty, as you were told this by

6 Hasim who said that all the houses were empty and if all the inhabitants

7 of Pojatista had come to your village, what sort of firing did such people

8 have in mind, the firing that went on so that they needed to crawl? I put

9 it to you that there was fighting there between the KLA and the Serb

10 forces. Isn't that correct?

11 A. That's not correct, that there was a fighting between the KLA

12 forces and the Serb forces. There was no KLA in that village.

13 Q. Very well, Mr. Krasniqi. Please explain to me then whether the

14 Serb forces opened friendly fire at each other, since this is what you

15 stated in the Milosevic trial. You stated that there was firing there

16 still and that they had to crawl to recover the bodies.

17 A. These people were executed at a location between Mirosale and

18 Pojatishte village, so in the vicinity of a mountain. The family members

19 of those who died, they crawled to the mountain to recover the bodies.

20 But there was nobody there.

21 Now, as to why they were shooting, I don't know. They should know

22 that. Now, whether they were celebrating something or not, I don't know

23 that. If I was not present there -- if I was present there at that

24 moment, I wouldn't have been here today to testify; I would have been

25 dead.

Page 3072

1 Q. Yes, Mr. Krasniqi. I understand, and this answer of yours

2 suffices. I will move on --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, in that case we'll take the break there,

4 Mr. Bakrac, before you move on, and we'll resume at ten minutes to 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I can see you still putting on your headphones. Can

10 you hear me?

11 A. [No interpretation].

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, before the break we were discussing the incidents

13 described to you by Hasim Sahiti. In your statement given to the OTP on

14 the 23rd of April, 1999, you stated, and I will quote only the latter

15 portion because the initial portion we discussed already concerning the

16 movement from one house to the next. One of the officers was told to take

17 out those people and take them out of the village, and you had in mind the

18 five or six men. And then they went together with a soldier who

19 accompanied them out of the village. Is that correct?

20 A. When the Serb forces entered that village, they expelled every

21 family from the village. One part of the expelled people remained in the

22 mountains and another came to our village.

23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I apologise if I was imprecise. This is all in your

24 statement. I'm interested in the following. You said that those five or

25 six men -- or rather, that an officer told to -- told a soldier to take

Page 3073

1 those people out of the village. Is that correct?

2 A. This is exactly what I wanted to elaborate.

3 Q. No, I don't need any more details. Just tell me whether this,

4 what is in your statement, is correct, this information you received from

5 Sahiti.

6 A. This statement of Sahiti is accurate, the way it is written in the

7 statement.

8 Q. Excellent. And after that you said that you were told by Sahiti

9 that once they came close to the forest a burst of gun-fire could be heard

10 and Sahiti started running. Is that correct as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, therefore Mr. Sahiti wasn't able to tell you at all

13 who opened fire. Is that correct?

14 A. The fire was opened by the Serbian soldier on these six persons.

15 Q. How do you know that when you now confirmed what Sahiti told you

16 exactly? Once close to the forest a burst of gun-fire could be heard and

17 I started to run, this being Mr. Sahiti. Everything else is your

18 speculation, isn't it?

19 A. He, Sahiti, Mr. Sahiti, told me exactly what happened. Secondly,

20 they were at the foot of the mountain --

21 Q. And you stated that precisely that way in your statement of the

22 23rd of April, 1999. Isn't that correct?

23 A. The way he told me, that is the way I described it. But in

24 addition to his statement I saw the victims that I buried myself. Adem

25 Sahiti [as interpreted], it was horrifying to see his body, what had it

Page 3074

1 become because of the bullets.

2 Q. Very well, Mr. Krasniqi, I am happy with your answer and I will

3 move on.

4 The next event that you described is on the 7th of April when you

5 saw from a distance some smokestacks and fires, and it seemed to you that

6 in Kamena Glava and Sojevo villages there were houses on fire. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And on that same day you heard that seven people had been killed

10 in Sojevo. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then on the next day, on the 8th of April, you noticed that

13 several military vehicles started from Sojevo towards your village and you

14 saw those vehicles approach your village. Then you saw some soldiers

15 leaving the APCs. Is that correct as well?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And this caused great fear and panic with you. Is that correct?

18 A. Not only with me but with the entire population.

19 Q. Yes, I understand. And after that you left your village. Is that

20 correct?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness has already confirmed --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: -- that the whole statement is accurate. Can we

24 move forward to the question now, please.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will cut

Page 3075

1 it short then.

2 Q. You said that you came across a check-point and this was after you

3 left your village out of fear, that there were two soldiers at the

4 check-point, and that two of the villagers ran back as the soldiers were

5 shooting in the air. And then you turned your convoy towards Urosevac and

6 started moving towards the village of Sojevo. Therefore, out of this

7 great fear you started moving towards a village for which you know had

8 been set fire to the previous day and where seven people had been killed.

9 Weren't you afraid to go to the village of Sojevo? For your sake and the

10 sake of your family you said that at the control point -- at the

11 check-point you changed the direction of the convoy because you were

12 afraid for your family and then you went to the village of Sojevo where

13 there had previously been burning and murders, and this was precisely the

14 village from which the soldiers came from, those very soldiers that caused

15 fear.

16 A. Exactly. After we left the village, at the end of the road we --

17 these people who were running, they took to the direction of Gjilan, to

18 the village of Tankosic. Their Lada-make vehicle, red colour, was

19 confiscated by the Serbian soldiers and they were sent back. As they were

20 running back, the soldiers were shooting in the air. We thought that they

21 had killed these persons --

22 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we know all this. You are now reading your

23 statement, and it was just now that Lord Bonomy said that we all have this

24 before us and that we needn't read it.

25 I'm interested in the following. If you fled from the soldiers in

Page 3076

1 Sojevo and if you knew that there were people killed there and the houses

2 set ablaze, how come you started for Sojevo with your family? This is

3 what I want to know. Please don't read back your statement to me.

4 A. Just a moment, please. If you think that I'm reading my statement

5 here, I can tell you that I don't need a statement. I can tell you live

6 what had happened. Don't think that I'm reading every word of the

7 statement.

8 I will now communicate to you everything that happened and I don't

9 want you to interrupt me.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't want -- we don't want you to communicate

11 everything that happened. We already have it in front of us. You've been

12 asked a very specific question, which is: When the source of the trouble

13 the day before was Sojevo, why did you head back towards Sojevo?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we were not permitted

15 to go through Tankosic village. We had to go to another direction. There

16 was no other direction left except for Ferizaj. This was the last

17 direction that we could take. We knew ourselves that we were walking

18 towards the path of death. We were sure of that, but there was no other

19 way out. That's why we were forced to take that direction, either die or

20 there was no other way out.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, I can assure you, Mr. Krasniqi, that it's far

22 more valuable to everyone here and far more in your interests to answer

23 the question which adds to the information that we have rather than simply

24 repeat something we already know. It must be obvious to you that that is

25 much more beneficial. So please listen carefully to the questions that

Page 3077

1 are being asked.

2 Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you saw two soldiers at the check-point firing in

5 the air and some people were running back, but no one was preventing you

6 to keep moving along that road, this being much safer than going back to

7 Sojevo because you knew of all the things that had happened there. Isn't

8 that so?

9 A. These two soldiers stopped the first convoy, confiscated their

10 vehicles. Therefore, we were forced, since they stopped the first members

11 of this convoy, we were forced to take the other direction, towards

12 Sojevo.

13 Q. Did you have any problems passing through the village of Sojevo?

14 Apart from the insults; we know of those. We've read your statement.

15 Were there any other incidents?

16 A. Fortunately, there was no other incident, just as it is stated in

17 the statement.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. I wanted one more thing clarified

19 because there is something in your statement which you haven't repeated

20 today in your testimony.

21 Didn't you say in your statement that the members of the

22 paramilitaries had two bands or ribbons on their left shoulder, a blue one

23 and a red one? Today when you were explaining this to my learned friend

24 you didn't mention that, therefore I would like to know whether this thing

25 you mentioned in your statement is correct.

Page 3078

1 A. That's correct. Nobody asked me for this before, that's why I

2 didn't mention it. But since you raised it now, I'm telling you it's

3 correct.

4 Q. Very well. Mr. Krasniqi, we are coming to the end of your

5 statement. You said that once you reached the border on the buses, that

6 you gave your ID together with other IDs from the other people in the bus

7 and that you put yours towards the bottom, and you said that you were

8 hoping that they wouldn't check your documents. Can one see from your ID

9 or passport that you were a member of the Democratic League of Kosovo? Is

10 it stated there?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. So it's not there. And then you say, to recapitulate, in your

13 documents there's nothing about you being a member of the Democratic

14 League of Kosovo. But then you said: I was concerned that they might

15 discover that I was an active member of the LDK.

16 Does that mean that you took active part -- an active part in the

17 fighting, Mr. Krasniqi?

18 A. No, I never in my life took part in fighting.

19 Q. Why were you afraid of being revealed as an active member of the

20 Democratic League of Kosovo, since it isn't stated anywhere in your

21 documents?

22 A. It is not stated in the document, that's true, but I feared that

23 they might recognise since they were exercising violence on some persons,

24 and some persons were even forced to admit things they did not commit.

25 That's why I was scared because they forced people to admit things that

Page 3079

1 they never actually committed.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. My last question: Your documents were

3 not seized from you on the border. Is that correct?

4 A. No, they were not seized. Fortunately, they were not.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thank you for your

6 patience. I have no further questions for this witness.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

8 Mr. Aleksic.

9 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will have

10 but a few questions for the witness.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi. My name is

13 Aleksander Aleksic, attorney-at-law, and together with John Ackerman and

14 Aleksandar Vujic, I appear on behalf of General Nebojsa Pavkovic. I will

15 have a few questions only for you and please try to be as precise as

16 possible in your answers. If possible, just say yes or no.

17 I will briefly go back to the event you described in detail in

18 your answers to Mr. Bakrac regarding the event with Mr. Hasim Sahiti. In

19 today's transcript at page 56, line 17, you said, talking about that

20 event, you said: "When the Yugoslav soldiers killed those people ..." And

21 then you move on.

22 Therefore, as you said, you didn't personally see those soldiers

23 and you don't know who actually perpetrated that crime? Is that correct?

24 A. Personally I didn't see who actually perpetrated the crime, but I

25 just told you what the person who had been there told me.

Page 3080

1 Q. Thank you. Another question relating to this issue. You say that

2 Mr. Hasim Sahiti told you that this was a Serbian soldier but he didn't

3 describe what he looked like in detail. Is that correct?

4 A. I have described approximately the soldiers, how they appeared.

5 Q. Mr. Shaqiri, on page 3 of the English version, and in B/C/S - I

6 don't know about the Albanian version - it's the one-but-last sentence you

7 said exactly what I read out to you: "Hasim told me that this was a Serb

8 soldier but he did not describe him in detail to me."

9 Is that correct?

10 A. He described it in detail when he said that the soldiers was

11 wearing glasses, his uniform was green, this is the description he gave

12 me. It should be in the statement. I really don't understand this.

13 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I don't understand you either. That's not what your

14 statement says. At the beginning of your testimony today, you said - and

15 that is line 46 -- or rather, page 46 -- or page 45, line 25 - that your

16 statement dated the 23rd of April, 1999, is 100 per cent correct. I just

17 read out what you stated then. I haven't got my glasses here now, but

18 there is no other explanation. It says here: "He did not describe

19 exactly what he looked like to me."

20 Is that correct, yes or no?

21 A. I know that I have said that he described me, this soldier, as

22 follows, that he was wearing glasses, that he had a uniform. The same

23 thing was said to me by this person from Smira who escaped the execution.

24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm going to move on to another topic, but I'm

25 telling you today you said: "My statement is 100 per cent correct" --

Page 3081

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter.

2 MS. CARTER: Thank you, Your Honour. We would ask for a more

3 specific page reference. We are reviewing pages 46 and 45 at line 25,

4 neither of which are giving us the quote that is being stated by my

5 learned colleague about what this witness has testified to.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: That he said his statement was accurate?

7 MS. CARTER: But he said -- at page 74, line 24, my learned

8 colleague indicates: "It says here he did not describe exactly what he

9 looked to me" in the context of the materials that are on 46 and 45. It's

10 nowhere to be found in either one of those pages and so --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: No, 46 and 45 is where -- or 45 is where he adopts

12 his statement.

13 MS. CARTER: Correct.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And that's all that's being said.

15 MS. CARTER: Then I --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: The statement as accurate. That's the only point

17 that's being drawn from these pages.

18 Yeah, please continue, Mr. Aleksic.

19 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in your statement, in several places, you refer to

21 the Serb army, Serb forces. Is it correct that until the 8th of April

22 when these people got into your village, those people who started running

23 out of a APC, you did not actually see any persons in uniform in that

24 period -- or rather, up until that time. Right?

25 A. Up until that time I had seen these kind of forces in Ferizaj

Page 3082

1 exactly on the 25th of March, 1999, not the same people but same forces,

2 soldiers mobilised, tanks --

3 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, in your statement -- I'm sorry. Perhaps I wasn't

4 very precise. You talk about what happened between the 4th and the 8th of

5 April. So the period is from the 4th until the 8th of April. So in that

6 period - I wasn't accurate enough, I'm sorry - did you see anyone like

7 that, up until that moment that is, when those soldiers jumped out of that

8 vehicle on the outskirts of your village and so on?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand the question now. I thought you

10 were dealing with the position before the 4th of April.

11 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no. The witness in

12 his statement describes some things that happened between the 4th and

13 the 8th, and I --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, I follow it now. Yeah.

15 So, Mr. Krasniqi, you're being asked whether you had seen similar

16 forces between the 4th and the 8th of April.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I have seen forces that had

18 come from the Gjilan-Ferizaj main road. We had seen them, observed them,

19 from the vicinity of my village. There were trucks towing cannons. They

20 were driving along the Pristina main road and then turned to Tankosic

21 village. Then they stopped there and they were shelling there, the

22 direction towards the Gadime hill and towards Zlatar village. There were

23 four victims in Zlatar village.

24 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, this event of the 8th of April, you said that when

Page 3083

1 the soldiers got close to the outskirts of your village started jumping

2 out of the APC and running towards houses. As you said to my colleague

3 Mr. Bakrac, that frightened you and you decided to leave. Did anybody

4 order you to leave the village, yes or no?

5 A. Before they came to our village, we had heard stories from other

6 villages that had been encircled, how many people were killed --

7 Q. Sorry, Mr. Krasniqi, I asked you a very specific question. You've

8 already told us what it was that you had heard, that you hadn't seen

9 anything yourself. I'm just asking you whether somebody ordered you to

10 leave, yes or no. You don't have to repeat all the other things that are

11 hearsay and that you already described.

12 A. When the Serb soldiers were running in the direction of the

13 houses, in the direction of the yards, it clearly shows that it is

14 cleansing.

15 Q. I asked you whether somebody had issued you an order, yes or no.

16 Just that. Please don't -- don't start speaking in compound sentences.

17 A. Before my neighbourhood there's another neighbourhood, Cakaj

18 neighbourhood, that's where the Serb forces entered. Maybe they issued

19 the order for that particular neighbourhood to leave. And the people from

20 that neighbourhood came to my neighbourhood and we left together. I

21 wasn't present there to see or to speak with the Serbian forces.

22 MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

23 further questions.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. O'Sullivan.

Page 3084

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Pavkovic -- sorry, Mr. Petrovic.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no further questions.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. Yeah, sorry, Mr. Petrovic, momentary senior

6 moment.

7 Mr. Sepenuk.

8 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: And Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: I don't want to disappoint you. I have one.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi. I am Branko Lukic,

13 and together with Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Ogrizovic I appear for Mr. Lukic.

14 I hope you have your statement in front of you, so could you

15 please open it. In the Albanian version, page 8, paragraph 3; English,

16 page 6, paragraph 3; B/C/S, page 6, paragraph 2. You're talking about how

17 you came to the town of Urosevac and that you came across a police

18 check-point. You describe the policemen, and you say they told you to

19 turn to Skoplje. Can you tell us approximately how long this convoy was,

20 the convoy that you were moving in?

21 A. The convoy that was moving was -- consisted of 30 to 40 tractors,

22 cars. However, when we were directed by the policemen to go towards

23 Skopje, the column split into two. One part went in the direction of

24 Pristina and the other in the direction of Skopje.

25 Q. Where were you in that convoy; can you tell us?

Page 3085

1 A. I was in the column that went from Ferizaj to Skopje.

2 Q. I meant when you were approaching the check-point. How far away

3 where you from the beginning of the convoy?

4 A. I was maybe the 15th or 17th in line, I mean the 15th or 17th

5 tractor.

6 Q. So you were not in contact with these policemen. You were just

7 moving behind someone who was moving in front of you?

8 A. Nobody contacted that policeman. As I said earlier, he was a

9 traffic policeman. He only gave the sign with his hand. Before we got

10 there, there is a turn there for Ferizaj-Skopje. He just showed a sign

11 with his hand, telling us to go to the direction towards the border with

12 Macedonia. And this shows the ethnic cleansing and the reason.

13 Q. When you set out towards Skoplje, Urosevac is behind you then,

14 right?

15 A. Behind, yes.

16 Q. In order to go back to Urosevac, as you did, you have to turn

17 around at an angle of 180 degrees and take the same road back, right?

18 A. In order to go back to Ferizaj, we used second- and third-hand

19 roads, like field paths. We went through Nekodim village and from there

20 we arrived in Ferizaj.

21 Q. How much time did you need after you turned around to get to

22 Urosevac?

23 A. From the Skopje road to Ferizaj or what do you mean?

24 Q. Please let's deal with this. How far did you get towards Skoplje

25 from that intersection?

Page 3086

1 A. From that intersection we went up to the Sarasel [phoen] village.

2 We took a right turn in the direction of Nekodim village and then we went

3 to Ferizaj through those tertiary roads I mentioned.

4 Q. And how much time did you need for all that?

5 A. Four hours.

6 Q. So this convoy, consisting of a considerable number of tractors

7 and cars, travelled four hours towards Urosevac and no one stopped them.

8 The direction is opposite to the border, right?

9 A. Yes. I showed you even earlier, but this delay was due to the

10 fact that the road ran through a flat land. It was a muddy road.

11 Tractors were stuck in that mud, and we were -- we had a lot of -- we ran

12 through a lot of vicissitudes. That's why it took us so long to arrive in

13 Ferizaj.

14 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. We have no further questions

15 for you. Thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

17 Ms. Carter.

18 MS. CARTER: No further questions from the Prosecution, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Krasniqi, that completes your evidence.

23 Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to

24 leave.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

Page 3087

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, your next witness.

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, our next witness is Bedri Hyseni. In

4 light of the hour, I would ask that we consider an early postponement.

5 And I did want to put on the record and advise Defence counsel of a

6 scheduling matter. We previously had five more witnesses scheduled for

7 this week, and our current intention is to proceed with Mr. Hyseni as the

8 next witness, Mr. Loku, Hazbi Loku, followed by Sejdi Lami, will be the

9 next three witnesses.

10 The witnesses scheduled after that were Isa Raka and Fadil Vishi.

11 Because we were running so far behind and because of their time

12 restrictions on their visas, et cetera, we have arranged for those two

13 gentlemen to return to Kosovo and will bring them back later in the case.

14 Because we need to proceed with the protected witness K73, hopefully

15 starting on Wednesday next week to finish him by Friday, so that a week

16 from Monday we can proceed with the videolink with another protected

17 witness, K82.

18 And that's how we propose to proceed in the upcoming week.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So you don't want to take 15 minutes to get

20 started, get the documents in and then be ready for -- you're going to

21 have the witness here over the weekend anyway?

22 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour. I think I'll go faster on Monday

23 than I will now. He is here and he is available.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: No, I dare say if I took a vote I'd be heavily

25 defeated.

Page 3088

1 MR. HANNIS: I could probably get six of those guys to give up two

2 minutes of their time along with me, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I am concerned about progress -- we all are

4 concerned about progress and we're giving it a lot of thought at the

5 moment. We are also concerned that we don't see any obvious signs of a

6 genuine attempt in preparing cross-examination to dispense with the

7 marginally important and concentrate on the really important. That's not

8 to say that the cross-examination in general is entirely or largely

9 inappropriate. We're not saying that. And indeed, in a domestic

10 situation with a much shorter case one could readily understand it. But

11 in this instance it's -- it's going to be necessary to restrict both the

12 extent of the examination where we have the statements and the extent of

13 the cross-examination to a point where we really focus on what is most

14 important.

15 We should also, I think, make it clear that while the use of

16 apparent contradictions in statements or between statements and oral

17 evidence is an obvious -- the identification of these is an obvious route

18 for the cross-examiner to go, in some instances starting at the beginning,

19 working your way through it, and finishing at the end is not really

20 assisting us greatly as professional Judges to arrive at an overall

21 assessment of the witness. So a sense of proportion would be welcomed in

22 the approach to cross-examination that challenges the reliability of the

23 evidence that's being given when compared with what has been said in the

24 past.

25 So we're due to sit again on Monday at 9.00, so we'll now adjourn

Page 3089

1 until then, when we will hear the evidence of Mr. Hyseni.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

4 September, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.