1 Wednesday, 13 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, can you indicate to me whether
6 there is a joint Defence position in relation to the motion affecting
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There is a joint position. There is a joint
9 position, and it's different than Mr. Hannis's position. We have a
10 dispute over the request.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Should we grant it, so you oppose it, do you?
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: We oppose it but we have an alternative proposal
13 to make.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Does the discussion of this require to be in
15 private session?
16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It may in part, if -- for I may have to make
17 submissions in connection with the confidential annex A. To that extent
18 we will have to be in closed session but for the rest of my submissions it
19 can be in public.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please carry on and you should tell me when
21 we require to go into private session.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. Your Honour, at present, K-73 has a
23 pseudonym and image distortion. We oppose the request for closed session
24 but we submit that adding the protection of voice distortion will suffice
25 thereby allowing the witness to have the protection he feels he needs, and
1 allowing the accused to benefit to the right to a public trial.
2 Rule 75(B)(i)(c) and (d) provide giving testimony through image or
3 voice altering devices and the assignment of a pseudonym of the that's the
4 basis for our request. We submit that the overriding interest here is the
5 public nature of these proceedings.
6 The measures we propose protect the identity of K-73 and they
7 address his concerns. However, his testimony, the nature and the content
8 of his testimony, must be public in our submission.
9 We take issue with the factors raised by the Prosecution in their
10 confidential annex A and to address those, Your Honour, we will need to go
11 into private session.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. For the purpose of addressing the
13 confidential material, we will have private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3274-3277 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We are satisfied that K-73's persistent concern and
6 anxiety about the security of relatives is justified on the basis of the
7 material presented to us, and for that reason, we will grant the
8 application to hear his evidence in closed session. We have, of course,
9 in the past in this case already reviewed orders of a similar nature when
10 it transpired that perhaps we had been overcautious, and obviously if that
11 were to emerge in this case then the evidence would become public, but as
12 presently advised, we consider that the appropriate course to follow is to
13 hear the evidence in closed session. The effect of that of course is that
14 this evidence cannot be reported out with this courtroom in any form that
15 is not absolutely essential for the purpose of conducting these
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, we'll now return to the cross-examination of
19 the current witness.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 WITNESS: SEJDI LAMI [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Lami. Can you hear me? No?
24 No translation? Good afternoon, Mr. Lami.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry that you had to wait but we had a matter
2 of law to deal with and that has been dealt with and we can proceed with
3 your evidence. Please remember that the solemn declaration to tell the
4 truth which you gave at the outset of your evidence continues to apply to
5 the evidence today.
6 And Mr. Visnjic will now cross-examine.
7 Mr. Visnjic?
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Your Honour, I don't know if we are in public session now. Are we?
10 JUDGE BONOMY: We have been in public session, including the
11 announcement of the decision in relation to the next witness.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Visnjic:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lami. I'm Tomislav Visnjic. I'm defence
15 counsel for Mr. Ojdanic and I'm going to put some questions to you in
16 relation to a photograph. Could the witness please be shown 3D94, page 1
17 of that exhibit?
18 A. If I'm familiar with those photos, I will describe what you want
19 me to.
20 Q. Thank you. I don't know how much you can see, but do you find
21 anything familiar in this photograph?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. Could the witness please be shown page 2?
24 A. No. I don't know that because where I'm from, there are no such
1 Q. Mr. Lami, do you find this photograph to be familiar?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let's have a look at photograph number 3, or page 3. Mr. Lami,
4 this should be a hill between Lama and Vata. Is there a hill?
5 A. Yes, there is.
6 Q. I don't know whether you can tell now on the basis of this. Could
7 that be it? The picture was taken from the direction of Dubrava, though.
8 A. Don't know if you can see that. This is where my house is, and
9 this is where the meadows are, and the Pragas were here.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that calls for three coloured pencils,
11 Mr. Visnjic.
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] This is quite interesting,
13 Your Honour.
14 Q. Could you please take another look at the previous photograph once
15 again, please? Looking at the transcript now, it would be page 2 again,
16 then. Mr. Lami, if you have a look at this, do you find it familiar now?
17 What do we see on this photograph now?
18 A. This is the house of Rrahman Mema who was massacred here. This
19 is --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Visnjic, please wait for the witness to
21 finish; we could not hear what he was saying, interpreters note.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the house of Rrahman Lami or
23 Lama. This is the barn of Rrahman Lama that was burnt. When the Serbs
24 left, they torched the barn.
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation].
1 Q. I'll put a question to you now. Let me ask you: Can you see in
2 this picture where the KLA positions were, the place where the KLA
3 positions were as described in your statement?
4 A. KLA was positioned after this house, where you can see this other
5 house. There is this road that divides the two houses and they stayed
6 there only three days. On the 12th they left.
7 Q. What you're saying to me now is that the KLA was behind the hill
8 and that in fact you cannot see their positions from this particular
9 location, am I right?
10 A. Look, my house is here. You can see that. Then you can see the
11 top of the roof of a house of one of my cousins. This is where our army,
12 the KLA, was stationed. The massacre was committed in that hill.
13 Q. Could you mark where the KLA positions were on this photograph?
14 Put a circle there, please.
15 A. The KLA didn't have any positions, because they left the village,
16 that house.
17 Q. All right. Well, where were their trenches?
18 A. Their trenches were dug here; here, that's where they were dug but
19 they had not been completed. They left the place.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lami, you need to write on the photograph or on
21 the screen rather for the photograph to be marked. Can you actually make
22 a circle or a similar mark where you say these trenches had been begun?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see the trenches very well
24 but this is the direction where they were. There was a meadow where they
25 were dug. You see where these houses -- these trees are. They didn't
1 finish. They started digging the trenches but they didn't finish them.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: You've marked a house with a little blue dot on the
3 chimney and you've marked the trenches near the trees with a slightly
4 bigger blue mark; is that correct?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic?
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Lami, can you just put number 1 next to the place where you
9 think the trenches were? That would do. Because I don't find this to be
10 very clear. Perhaps I don't have the same picture. Could you please put
11 a number 1 next to the point where you think the trenches were?
12 A. There were no trenches actually. When they started to defend
13 themselves, they did that in this place where the trees are. Shall I put
14 a number here?
15 Q. There. Place a number 1 there?
16 A. A number 1, then. This doesn't write very well.
17 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions in relation to this
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Can it please be assigned a number?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 36, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Very well, Mr. Lami. Now let us move on to the next page of this
25 exhibit. This was page number 3. And you said that you recognised this
1 to be the hill between Lama and Vata.
2 A. Yes. Vata is from this side here.
3 Q. I still haven't got anything on my screen.
4 Is this the hill, the photograph at page 3 of this exhibit?
5 A. Yes, this is the hill in our part. This is our hill, the hill of
6 our village. This is where the asphalt is.
7 Q. Mr. Lami, I will show you a few other photographs. We will take
8 them in order. Could we please see number 4 now? Or, rather, let us move
9 on to number 5, since these two are the same.
10 A. They are the same, yes.
11 Q. We've already seen this exhibit. Let's drop it.
12 Could we now please show 3D96 to the witness? Page 2.
13 A. I can recognise this place. It's in our village.
14 Q. I warranted to ask you this: This photograph on page 2, is this
15 supposed to be Vata? Is this the right side of that hill? Let us try
16 with page 3. Perhaps that photograph is a bit better.
17 A. These houses are along the asphalt road. They are part of Vata as
18 well but there are not so many houses here.
19 Q. Let us now look at page 4 of this exhibit. Mr. Lami, do you
20 recognise these houses?
21 A. Yes. These are called Neziraj houses. They are in upper Vata.
22 And here is the asphalt road that leads to Tetova.
23 Q. Thank you. Could we please show 3D95 to the witness and let us
24 begin with page 2. Page 2.
25 A. I cannot recognise the photographs. This is the martyrs'
2 Q. What can you recognise in this photograph?
3 A. It is a monument. Here is Ilir Caka, here is Rrahman Mema, and
4 Hebib. There are four monuments built there, tombstones.
5 Q. This cemetery, Mr. Lami, it's got nothing to do with the event you
6 mentioned in your statement. Am I correct to conclude that?
7 A. These are the graves of the persons that I'm here to testify
8 about, Rrahman Lami, Hebib Lami, Mahmut Caka. I cannot recognise the
9 tombstones, what is written on them, because it's kind of foggy, the
10 picture is not very clear.
11 Q. We'll try to blow it up a bit, but since you seem to know who the
12 persons buried are, let us move on to page 3 of this exhibit. Page 4,
13 please. This is as good a photograph as we can obtain from blowing it up.
14 In any case, Mr. Lami, you have identified for me the people buried whose
15 four tombstones we see here.
16 A. The first photograph was clearer. This is Rrahman here. I cannot
17 recognise this one here. Can you go back to the first photograph, please?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: This isn't an exercise in nostalgia. Do we need to
19 go into this any further, Mr. Visnjic, or have you got the information you
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I'm about to
22 conclude. I have received sufficient information from the witness. And
23 this would also be my last question for the witness. I tried to use this
24 witness to identify certain locations and their names, since while we were
25 taking photographs we were not sure what we were taking photographs of,
1 and I basically made use of Mr. Lami's presence here to try and clarify
2 that. Thank you.
3 Q. And thank you, Mr. Lami.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp?
5 Re-examination by Mr. Stamp:
6 Q. How do you know how it is that Mahmut Caka, Hebib Lami, and Brahim
7 Lami came to be buried in that cemetery?
8 A. We are very close with them. It's only 1.000 metres between us.
9 We invite each others on weddings, we go to pay condolences in cases of
10 death. We are neighbours.
11 Q. Okay. That cemetery, I think you referred to it as a martyrs'
12 cemetery. What I want to know is do you know how it is they came to be
13 buried in that cemetery, which is a martyrs' cemetery?
14 A. They were buried there because other graves are there as well.
15 Q. Well, do you know whether or not they were members of the KLA?
16 A. No. They were not members of the KLA.
17 Q. Do you know whether or not they specifically speaking they bore
18 arms at all for any organisation?
19 A. Especially these four persons, one of them was an invalid from his
20 birth, and the others were helping him. That person was a student, Brahim
21 Lami was his name. They had no weapons whatsoever.
22 Q. Now, that answer, you said there were no weapons whatsoever. Are
23 you referring to the particular day of the incident, that's the 13th of
24 April, 1999, or in general? In general did they bear arms for the KLA or
25 any armed group?
1 A. I don't know about other dates, but for 13th of April, when the
2 offensive took place, I saw them, and this invalid was walking and the
3 other three persons were helping him and when they entered the forest,
4 that's where the Serb army captured them.
5 Q. I suspect you've answered my question but I just want to be
6 absolutely clear. I was asking you about whether or not you knew of them
7 bearing arms for the KLA or any organisation at any time?
8 A. No. I didn't see them carry KLA weapons.
9 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
11 Mr. Lami, you referred to the cemetery as a martyrs cemetery.
12 What does that mean?
13 A. These are civilians who are buried in the martyrs cemetery. They
14 have nothing to do with KLA or any other organisation. They were killed
15 during the war and that's why we call them martyrs. They did not die by
16 natural death but they were killed by the army.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Does anyone wish to ask any questions arising out
18 of that answer? Very well.
19 Thank you, Mr. Lami. That completes your evidence. Thank you for
20 coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to leave.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis?
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, our next witness will be K-73 and this
25 will be in closed session.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We shall go into closed session for the
2 evidence of this witness.
3 [Closed session]
11 Pages 3288-3359 redacted. Closed session.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of
23 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.