Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5322

1 Thursday, 26 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, good afternoon.

6 Judge Nosworthy has still not fully recovered, and although she

7 was able to sit in morning, sitting in the two cases has, obviously, taken

8 its toll. So we have decided again to sit, in terms of Rule 15 bis, in

9 her absence.

10 Could we now have the witness, please.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, sir.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: We will continue with your evidence now. Please

15 remember that the solemn declaration to tell the truth which you made at

16 the beginning of your evidence continues to apply to your evidence today.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 WITNESS: WITNESS K72 [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

22 Q. Good afternoon, K72. Last night, when we finished, we were

23 talking about you having been required to do some work for the MUP. Can

24 you tell us how you were paid for the work you did for the MUP. How often

25 did you get paid? In what form did you get paid?

Page 5323

1 A. I know it was very little. I'm not sure. Maybe around 10 German

2 marks at the time for 15 days, maybe a little longer.

3 Q. Now, when the police asked you to come do this work, how did you

4 get to and from the places where you did the work for them?

5 A. Well, I came with my machine and that's the way I went back.

6 Q. And were you transported from your house to where the machine was

7 kept?

8 A. Yes. A car came to pick me up and drove me back home.

9 Q. Was that a police car?

10 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


13 Q. What kind of car was that?

14 A. Sometimes it was a police car, sometimes an unmarked police car,

15 because they had cars like that, too.

16 Q. And who came in those cars to pick you up?

17 A. Well, I don't know these people, but they were members of the

18 MUP. They wore camouflage uniforms. I don't know who they are.

19 Q. What colour was the camouflage uniform?

20 A. Blue.

21 Q. Now I want to go to paragraph 13 of your statement, K72. You

22 describe there how sometime around April a MUP officer came to your home

23 to pick you up to go do some delicate work, and you mentioned you were

24 taken to the Bistrazin bridge area. How did you get to the bridge?

25 A. Well, I don't know whether he was an officer. He did wear a

Page 5324

1 uniform, a blue camouflage uniform, no signs of rank. So I don't know

2 whether he was an officer. He took me to the place where the machine was

3 parked, and then I followed the car to the point of destination.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. HANNIS: Could we bring up Exhibit P615, please, at page 22.

6 Q. Witness, I'd like to show you a map, and it will come up on the

7 screen in front of you shortly. I would ask if you can see on the map

8 where the Bistrazin bridge is located.

9 MR. HANNIS: And if we can zoom in on the area just to the east of

10 Gjakova. If we could centre a little bit to the left of where the

11 magnifying glass is now, and down. That's good. One more, perhaps one

12 more, and maybe even one more, if possible. Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, can you see on that map where the Bistrazin bridge is? I

14 don't know how big your screen is.

15 A. This thick blue line, I believe, is the Drin River. And there is

16 another little river - it must be a thin blue line - the Erenik River, and

17 that's where the bridge must be. The thin blue line, I simply can't see

18 it.

19 Q. Now, the thin blue line you're talking about is the river that

20 runs from Djakovica toward the bigger river shown on the map, the Drina,

21 and connects with it?

22 A. I think so, yes.

23 Q. And the bridge you're talking about is on what road?

24 A. Djakovica-Prizren.

25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. I would trust that the

Page 5325

1 Court can see where there is a location that fits that description of a

2 thin blue line, being the river from Gjakova and the road. There is a

3 location also by that name of Bistrazin on the map.

4 Q. How many -- you indicated in your statement that there were police

5 officers there when you arrived. How many police officers were securing

6 the area when you got there?

7 A. I don't know the exact number, but it could have been 10 or 15.

8 It was night, so it was difficult to see whether all of them were in one

9 spot. Or some were further away, maybe.

10 Q. And those policemen you saw out there, how were they dressed?

11 A. Also, blue uniforms.

12 Q. Did you know any of them either by sight or by name?

13 A. No, not a single one.

14 Q. Had you ever -- well, let me strike that.

15 You mentioned in your statement that this site, this grave-site,

16 was pretty big. Can you give us a rough estimate of how big an area

17 you're talking about, how many metres by how many metres.

18 A. Perhaps 4 by 7 or 8.

19 Q. And you describe how you started digging and realised you were

20 digging up bodies. How many -- approximately how many bodies did you dig

21 up at that site?

22 A. Well, one policeman there told me when I asked him, How much work

23 is there to be done - because I was already sick; I was vomiting - and he

24 replied, Well, not many; 100, 120.

25 Q. When you dug up those bodies, can you tell us -- can you tell the

Page 5326

1 Judges in what conditions they were. Were their faces still recognisable

2 or had they decayed beyond the point of being able to recognise faces?

3 A. They were recognisable. You could see.

4 Q. You say in your statement, in paragraph 13, that there were four

5 to six Roma gypsies out at the site helping load the bodies. Did you

6 recognise any of them?

7 A. Well, I think I had recognised two of them because I had seen them

8 twice on two locations. I wasn't sure, but they looked familiar. I

9 believe they were from Djakovica or from one of the surrounding villages.

10 Q. And how were the Romas dressed? Were they wearing any kind of

11 uniform or were they in civilian clothes?

12 A. Civilian clothes.

13 Q. In paragraph 13 you describe the vehicles that -- I'm sorry,

14 paragraph 14, you describe the vehicles that were out at that scene. You

15 describe the larger truck, and I think in your statement you referred to

16 it as a refrigerated truck. Do you recall what colour it was?

17 A. Well, I don't recall the colour. It was not a very big truck; it

18 was medium size, like the refrigerated lorry. And the refrigerated lorry

19 was standard size.

20 Q. Did it have any markings on it that you recall?

21 A. Not that I noticed.

22 Q. And what about the smaller truck? Do you remember anything about

23 its colour or markings?

24 A. I couldn't remember. I didn't really notice because it was night

25 and you cannot see much by night and I was working. No, I did not notice

Page 5327

1 anything.

2 Q. And what was its relative size compared to the freezer truck or

3 the refrigerated truck?

4 A. Approximately the same size, maybe slightly bigger, but I didn't

5 pay much attention to that, to be quite truthful.

6 Q. Sometime after this event, did you see on television a story and

7 pictures about a freezer truck containing bodies that was found in the

8 Danube River?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And in connection with that story, did they show a picture of the

11 truck?

12 A. I think the picture was shown on television - I saw it - but one

13 refrigerated lorry resembles another. I don't know if it's the same one.

14 Q. That's my question, I guess. Was the one you saw out at the

15 Bistrazin bridge where you were digging up bodies similar to the one you

16 saw on TV?

17 A. Well, I'm telling you, a refrigerated lorry is a refrigerated

18 lorry. It was white. I don't remember any markings. It's possible that

19 it's precisely that one; maybe it isn't. I couldn't really tell.

20 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 15 of your statement, Witness, you talk

21 about when there was a civilian convoy that was bombed. In your statement

22 you say "the very next day," but during proofing you indicated to us you

23 weren't sure about what day it was. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that is one of the changes you wanted to make to your

Page 5328

1 statement, was to indicate that you weren't sure about what day that

2 bombing happened.

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 16, you tell us about another digging job

5 you did for the police, and this was at the Brekovac cemetery. Where is

6 that cemetery located in relation to the town of Djakovica?

7 A. I don't know if you have a map. It's next to the barracks. If

8 you pass the barracks, you come up against Brekovac. If you go from the

9 centre of town to the barracks, Brekovac is right there.

10 MR. HANNIS: Can we try map -- Exhibit P615 again, the same page,

11 and if we could blow up the are around or enlarge the area around the town

12 of Djakovica.

13 Q. Are you able to see the area where the Brekovac cemetery was

14 located?

15 MR. HANNIS: If the usher could help you with the pen there.

16 Q. There is a pen with which you can mark the map. Could you draw a

17 circle around the area where the cemetery was located.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. HANNIS: Could we take a screen shot of that and give it the

21 next IC number, please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC86, Your Honours.

23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

24 Q. Now, you indicate in your statement that the police came to get

25 you for this job and there were policemen at the site when you arrived

Page 5329

1 there. Do you recall how many police were at the cemetery when you went

2 to dig up bodies there?

3 A. It was also by night. There were quite a number of vehicles - I

4 don't know exactly how many - and around 20 policemen that I saw there

5 when I arrived. Vehicles were coming and going all the time. I don't

6 know how many there were, but there were quite a lot.

7 Q. And in the course of digging up the bodies at the cemetery, you

8 indicated you saw some grave-markers with names on them, on some of the

9 graves that you dug up. Do you recall any of the names that you saw on

10 that occasion?

11 A. I don't remember the names, but I believe, judging by the names,

12 they were Muslims, almost all of them Albanians.

13 Q. And in connection with this dig, what kind of uniforms were the

14 policemen wearing who picked you up and who were at the cemetery?

15 A. Also, blue uniforms, camouflage.

16 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 17 of your statement, Witness, you

17 mention one change that you wanted to make. In your statement it says

18 that there was a big truck outside the cemetery and there was a smaller

19 truck with a trailer. I think you indicated that you wanted to change

20 your statement to reflect it was a tractor with a trailer inside the

21 cemetery rather than a truck.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. With regard to the truck that was outside, how big was it compared

24 to the refrigerator truck that had been used at the Bistrazin bridge?

25 A. It was a trailer. Now, how big was it? Twice as big, I suppose,

Page 5330

1 covered with a tarpaulin.

2 Q. Twice as big as the refrigerated truck?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. You mentioned also that there were four to six Romas

5 helping move the bodies from the cemetery to the truck that night. Did

6 you recognise any of those Romas?

7 A. Well, it was probably the same team. There were two men that I

8 had seen before, either there or in some other place, but there were those

9 two that I had seen twice before in different places. I think they were

10 from Djakovica or the surrounding area.

11 Q. So I understand, two of them were the same as two that you had

12 seen out at the bridge when you dug up bodies there?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And you indicated, in terms of numbers of bodies, were there more

15 or the same number as you had dug up at the bridge?

16 A. I think there were more.

17 Q. These bodies, you indicated that mostly they were just individual

18 graves, one body per grave, although there were a few in which there were

19 two bodies. Were the bodies simply in the ground, in the dirt, or were

20 they inside any kind of casket or coffin or other kind of container?

21 A. In the ground, just in the ground.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is that reference, Mr. Hannis, to mostly

23 individual graves and some with two?

24 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: If this is paragraph 17 --

Page 5331

1 MR. HANNIS: I may have gotten ahead of myself.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- I have a question whether these were mass

3 graves.

4 MR. HANNIS: I perhaps skipped -- paragraph 16 there's a reference

5 to: "I started to dig up individual graves."

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I had that, but I didn't see there either the

7 reference to some with more than one person.

8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I may be confusing that with the Guska

9 but let me --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps the nature of the graves in paragraph 17

11 could be clarified with the witness.

12 MR. HANNIS: I will.

13 Q. Witness, the bodies you dug up at Brekovac cemetery, can you tell

14 us how were they, were they in one mass grave, were they in several

15 individual graves? How many bodies per grave that you dug up?

16 A. Those were individual graves, all of them. Now, whether I found

17 only two bodies per grave in Guska or was it Brekovac, I don't know. But

18 they were all individual graves.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. And you say in your statement you worked

20 out there from -- well, from 9.00 in the evening until 9.00 or 10.00 the

21 next morning, so 12 or 13 hours total?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I believe if there were more bodies than at the bridge there

24 was something in excess of 100 to 120 bodies that you dug up during that

25 12- to 13-hour period?

Page 5332

1 A. Probably, I believe there were more, and it took a longer time

2 because this was a harder job because they were individual graves. I had

3 to exhume them, then re-fill the pit, and there was a -- that took a

4 longer time.

5 Q. Let me ask you as a practical matter. In digging up an individual

6 grave, approximately how long would that take you just to do one grave?

7 How many times to you have to put your excavator in the ground to get the

8 body out?

9 A. Two or three minutes.

10 Q. Thank you. And these bodies, were you -- can you tell us anything

11 about the state of decomposition that they were in, compared to the ones

12 at the bridge, for example?

13 A. They were recognisable.

14 Q. Thank you. I believe you indicated in your statement that you

15 noticed what appeared to be bullet wounds on some of those bodies?

16 A. Yes, on some of them you would find these things too.

17 Q. Thank you. After you finished the digging you told us in

18 paragraph 18 of your statement how you went to what I think you referred

19 to as the MUP gas station to refill. Was that a gas station that could

20 only be used by the MUP at that time; is that why you called it a MUP gas

21 station?

22 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour, I think that this is leading

23 as well, so my learned friend should put an open question to this witness

24 in this regard.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think this one is a leading question. I

Page 5333

1 don't see anything wrong with that question.

2 Carry on, Mr. Hannis.


4 Q. Do you recall the question or should I repeat it?

5 A. Yes, yes, I do. Well, I went to that petrol station very often,

6 and I don't know that I didn't pay for the petrol and I had just assumed

7 that it was a MUP's petrol station because I went there and I took petrol

8 and I didn't pay for it. So it's just my assumption.

9 Q. In paragraph 19 there was one addition to your statement that you

10 made when we were proofing with you on the 24th. With regard to the

11 number of bodies that you dug out of the forest area near Guska, do you

12 remember approximately how many it was?

13 A. I don't remember. I know that outside a building there were

14 around ten bodies lined in three rows, three or four per row, whereas in

15 the woods they were all scattered over the woods and there were many but I

16 did not count them. I can't tell you the exact number.

17 Q. Was it more than ten?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many police were out at that area when you went out there to

20 go the digging?

21 A. I would always see them in a group of 10 to 15, but as to whether

22 there were more than that, I don't know. There probably were more of them

23 securing that place.

24 Q. And how were these policemen dressed at Guska?

25 A. Camouflage blue uniforms.

Page 5334

1 Q. How did you know where to dig up the bodies in the forest?

2 A. A policeman went ahead of me with a torch-lamp, and he would point

3 me to the exact spot where the bodies were.

4 Q. Okay. Now, you mention in paragraph 20 that you were threatened

5 by somebody from the MUP to keep your mouth shut. Where did that happen?

6 A. Upon the completion of the job in Guska. I don't know this

7 person. He approached me and he said that I shouldn't talk to anyone

8 about the case, otherwise my head will be gone, as he literally put it. I

9 told him that I had already told my wife and a lawyer. I used that as an

10 excuse. I was afraid, and the truth of the matter was that I did indeed

11 tell my wife but I never spoke to any lawyer about that.

12 Q. You say this happened upon completion of the job in Guska. Where

13 exactly, were you still at Guska?

14 A. Yes, we were still there.

15 Q. And who was present when he made this threat to you?

16 A. No one else, just the two of us. He approached the machine, and

17 that's what he said.

18 Q. I think there was one other correction that you wanted to make to

19 your statement. In paragraph 23 the English version reads: "I was never

20 engaged in collecting or digging bodies in the town of Djakovica. I do

21 not know whether the mayor of Djakovica Momcilo Stanojevic was involved in

22 these kind of," there's a word missing. I think you indicated to us that

23 that word should be "operation."

24 A. "Operation."

25 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 26 you say you didn't take part in

Page 5335

1 the removal of dead bodies of the Kosovo Albanians who were killed in Meja

2 and Korenica in April 1999. I need to ask you how you know about that.

3 First of all, were you ever at Meja or Korenica to dig up bodies?

4 A. No, I was never there. I did go to Korenica before the war on one

5 occasion to visit some friends, but I never went to either Meja or

6 Korenica with any construction machinery.

7 Q. But with regard to the bodies that you dug up at the Bistrazin

8 bridge and in the Brekovac cemetery and at Guska, do you know where those

9 people were killed, or where they were from?

10 A. No. I didn't know them, and I couldn't be able to establish that.

11 I really didn't know where those people had come from.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness.

13 MR. HANNIS: I have no other questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

15 Mr. O'Sullivan.

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The order will be: General Lukic, General

17 Pavkovic, General Lazarevic, General Ojdanic, Mr. Sainovic, and

18 Mr. Milutinovic.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Just give me one second to

22 try to organise myself.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. K72, my name is Branko Lukic

25 and I will have a few questions for you to clarify some things.

Page 5336

1 Paragraph 10 of your statement. Before the bombing started, what

2 was your combat disposition? Were you with the JNA or with the TO?

3 A. I had no combat disposition.

4 Q. How did it come about? Weren't you supposed to be assigned one?

5 A. The army engaged me first at some point before the war. They

6 asked me to dig roads for them and to make embankments for their

7 equipment. I asked not to wear a uniform, and this remained so until the

8 end of the war.

9 Q. You say that you were approached by a lieutenant-colonel from the

10 VJ at Pastrik and asked that you work for them. Do you know what his name

11 was?

12 A. I can't recall. He was a stout person. The soldiers addressed

13 him as lieutenant-colonel, although he wore no rank. And every morning I

14 would have to report to the barracks and then things started moving.

15 Q. There were two barracks in Djakovica. Do you know in which one

16 the lieutenant-colonel worked?

17 A. I used to see him at Cabrat but not often. It is possible that he

18 was in both. I don't know what his tasks were exactly, but I used to see

19 him at Cabrat.

20 Q. Did he ever issue you with a summons or a call-up?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was your work for the army entered in your military booklet?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Paragraph 11 you say that the head of the State Security

25 Service --

Page 5337

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I seem to have to slow

3 down.

4 Q. Did you personally know Milan Kovacevic?

5 A. No. I only knew him by sight. I saw him on a few occasions.

6 Q. You say that you did the same kind of job for the MUP as you did

7 for the VJ. Do you mean camouflaging the vehicles? Did you make

8 embankments and trenches for their equipment?

9 A. I don't think I did that.

10 Q. You say that the commander of the Territorial Defence was the city

11 mayor of Djakovica, Momcilo Stanojevic, and that the TO asked you to dig

12 trenches, bury cattle, and that you were ordered to do this by Slobodan

13 Matanovic and Masan Rakovic. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you say that they both wore blue overalls, or boiler suits,

16 can you tell us were they monochrome blue?

17 A. Yes, they were of a single colour.

18 Q. Did they wear any belts?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did they have any weapons?

21 A. I can't recall. I don't think so.

22 Q. The colour of the boiler suits, did it resemble the monochrome

23 police uniforms?

24 A. It looked more like a worker's suit with blue trousers and blue

25 jackets.

Page 5338

1 Q. Did you know any of those people?

2 A. I used to know Masan Rakovic and this other one, what was his

3 name, Matanovic, I used to work with them. I used to know them

4 personally.

5 Q. Do you know what ethnicity were the people who were doing the work

6 and wore the boiler suits, did they also comprise the Roma as well as the

7 Serbs?

8 A. As for the Serbs, they did wear such uniforms. I didn't see the

9 Roma in those uniforms and I never saw any Albanians wearing such

10 uniforms.

11 Q. Did you know that there were some civilian protection units in

12 existence?

13 A. I know of the existence of the ones that I worked with, nothing

14 apart from that. If that is the unit, that's the one I know.

15 Q. I wanted to ask you whether you knew that this type of uniform was

16 not worn by TO units but rather but civilian protection units.

17 A. It is possible. I worked with them and these are the people by

18 their first and last name. As for the uniforms, I don't know. I don't

19 know if there were any other units.

20 Q. In paragraph 13 you say that in April 1999 a MUP officer came to

21 your house. You didn't know him, did you?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. You also say that your excavator was parked at the parking lot

24 next to the MUP building?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5339

1 Q. Was it within the MUP compound or was it on the public parking

2 place in front of the building?

3 A. It was in front of the MUP building but behind the fence of the

4 perimeter.

5 Q. Is it correct that there was no one in the building at that time,

6 since the MUP officers were moved out of the building?

7 A. Well, I don't know if they had moved out by that time, but this is

8 where I picked up my vehicle and went to do the job.

9 Q. The location you worked at was secured by the police, you say?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You didn't know any of the policemen there, did you?

12 A. No, I did not.

13 Q. Paragraph 14, concerning the trucks that you loaded the bodies

14 onto, they did not have any registration plates, did they?

15 A. I don't think they did have any. I didn't pay any attention, but

16 as far as I can recall, I don't think they had registration plates.

17 Q. You told us today that you saw no other markings on the trucks, is

18 that correct, and you don't know where they went?

19 A. Both is correct.

20 Q. Do you know the policemen who said to you that there were 100 to

21 120 bodies there?

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. You personally could not estimate how many bodies there were?

24 A. No, I could not.

25 Q. Where were you when NATO bombed the Albanian column at the

Page 5340

1 Bistrazin bridge?

2 A. I think I was at home.

3 Q. You say that you were paid for the work you did in per diems. Who

4 paid you?

5 A. Someone from the MUP; I don't know who. He had a list and there

6 was some drivers there, and I was the only excavator operator. He would

7 pay us according to the list and according to the number of days he

8 registered.

9 Q. So you were not paid within the MUP building, but rather out in

10 the field?

11 A. In both places, depending on where and how they would get the

12 money.

13 Q. Are you telling me that in that period, in April and May 1999,

14 some of the MUP offices were within the MUP building?

15 A. In the previous investigation I also stated that I couldn't

16 remember dates and months. This was six or seven years ago. I know when

17 the MUP building had been bombed because I saw it, but I don't know when

18 they moved out. I only know that the third and the fourth floor were hit,

19 and the building was demolished on those floors. I was working close by

20 at the time, but I can't remember the month.

21 Q. Can we agree that the jobs you did were performed after the MUP

22 building had been hit?

23 A. I can't be certain.

24 Q. If I told you that the jobs were performed after the MUP building

25 had been hit, would you accept that as a possibility?

Page 5341

1 A. I don't know whether to accept it or not. I remember that the MUP

2 building was hit and the person came - I think he was a Jew - and he took

3 a picture of me on the excavator. And he toured the building that was hit

4 that day. I was working for the army at the time because a pipe had been

5 hit and it burst, and he simply took a picture of me. I think his name

6 was Danijel Sifer, but I can't recall the date.

7 It changes nothing for me. I know the things I told did happen,

8 so it doesn't matter when.

9 Q. Mr. K72, it does change because you couldn't have been paid within

10 the MUP building because at that moment it was shut down. There was no

11 one there. No office was opened.

12 A. I only wish I hadn't been paid there, but I was. I had been.

13 Q. Did you sign a receipt?

14 A. I signed next to my name on the list.

15 Q. You say that you realised that the police were trying to cover up

16 the crime. You are not familiar with the structure and the functioning of

17 the MUP. Is that correct?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Therefore, you don't know what levels or what bodies within the

20 MUP were involved in this possible cover-up. Is that correct?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 Q. You don't know who it was from the MUP and at what level they

23 were?

24 A. No, I don't. I don't know who organised that and I don't think I

25 ever stated anything of that nature.

Page 5342

1 Q. In paragraph 16 you say that two to three weeks before the end of

2 the war you were visited by the police at 8.00 p.m. At that time it was

3 already dark. Is that correct?

4 A. Well, maybe not fully. We waited until it was completely dark and

5 then we set out.

6 Q. Therefore, all of the jobs were carried out during the night?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that particular night you did not recognise any of the

9 policemen?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. We have established that only at those locations you recognised

12 two gypsies which you had previously seen at the location in Bistrazin.

13 May we conclude then that you did not recognise a single policeman who

14 participated in these operations?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. May we conclude that none of the policemen who participated in

17 that was from Djakovica or its environs?

18 A. Some of them may have been from the environs or from Djakovica,

19 but I didn't know them. It was dark, they wore camouflage uniforms, and

20 helmets and caps. It is difficult to recognise anyone.

21 Q. As for the MUP member mentioned in paragraph 20 who threatened you

22 you told us that you didn't recognise him either?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. You said that he must have had a higher rank. Judging by his

25 accent, could you have concluded from which part of the state he came?

Page 5343

1 A. Truth be said, no. He had no insignia, no rank on his uniform.

2 He just approached me and I thought since he did that, he was probably an

3 officer. And he just told me I should keep my mouth shut, otherwise I

4 could lose my head, by those very words.

5 Q. Among those killed you dug out, you didn't recognise anyone. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. But for one man you say that he had a KLA symbol on his head?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you say that all of them wore civilian clothes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What sort of a KLA symbol did he have on his head?

13 A. He was completely bald, shaven, and the only hair he had was the

14 KLA symbol, the letters of the acronym.

15 Q. I've asked you this indirectly, but just by way of conclusion I

16 wanted to ask you this: You don't know who ordered and organised the

17 digging out of the bodies?

18 A. I don't know exactly.

19 Q. In paragraph 24 you mentioned that there was no place for Serbs in

20 Kosovo and that you left Kosovo with your family. Why is there no place

21 for Serbs in Kosovo anymore?

22 A. First of all, in the part of Kosovo where I lived during peaceful

23 times there were as little as 20 per cent of the Serbs, and not once those

24 people moved out, of course there is no more room for Serbs there anymore.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions for you.

Page 5344

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: K72, do you still live in Serbia?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: No questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk -- oh, no, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't mind. I have only one

8 question.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

10 Q. [Interpretation] K72, in your statement you said that when the

11 bombing started you were hired by the Army of Yugoslavia to camouflage

12 their vehicles, and most of it was at Cabrat hill. You mentioned that

13 that particular unit was an anti-tank brigade and that you were --

14 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, anti-aircraft brigade.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And that you were camouflaging Pragas. When you talk about Pragas

17 are these anti-aircraft weapons?

18 A. Someone else inserted that. I made embankments for various

19 equipment. There were Pragas there as well as BOVs, the three-barrelled

20 guns, but also some shelters and embankments for radar facilities. So

21 most of them were Pragas and APCs or combat-armoured vehicles.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question

23 because he overlapped with the witness.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. It hasn't been entered into the transcript so I will repeat my

Page 5345

1 question and the answer.

2 At Cabrat hill there were on the anti-aircraft weapons. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There were no tanks?

6 A. There were no tanks.

7 Q. Thank you, K72.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

9 questions.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 Now Mr. Sepenuk.

12 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No questions.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Hannis.

18 MR. HANNIS: I have no questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: K72, that brings your evidence to an end. Thank

22 you very much for coming here to give that evidence. You are now free to

23 leave.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz, the next witness.

Page 5346

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, the next witness is Liri Loshi.


3 MS. KRAVETZ: Mr. Loshi is one of our Izbica witnesses and his

4 evidence is primarily relevant to paragraphs 75(f), 77, and Schedule F of

5 the indictment. He's going to be testifying pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, can you clarify what we have here. We have

7 the transcript from the Milosevic trial, and then we have certain

8 statements.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, we are -- were planning on tendering the

10 transcripts of his prior testimony in the Milosevic case and then four of

11 his previous statements, which were tendered into evidence in that case.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, one of these statements is dated 2001, I

13 think, and is a statement of about four pages. If you go to page 9423 of

14 the transcript, at the foot of the page you'll see reference to a

15 description in his statements of villages being surrounded. Now, that

16 does not appear in any of the statements I have. And if you then go to

17 page 9433, at line 11 you'll see Mr. Ryneveld referring to page 3 of a

18 31-page statement. Now, I certainly don't have that.

19 Now, can I take it that there are statements that are referred to

20 in this transcript that we are not to be provided with?

21 MS. KRAVETZ: I believe the 31-page statement is the statement

22 dated 23rd to 25th September, 2001.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've got four pages of that in the bundle

24 that was sent to me.

25 MS. KRAVETZ: There are two statements dated 25th September. One

Page 5347

1 is dated only 25th September; the other one is dated 23rd to 25th

2 September 2001.

3 If we can pull up the exhibit if e-court, I think in e-court it's

4 complete. And in e-court the exhibit number of this bundle of statements

5 is 2436, and I believe the statement you're looking for starts at page 16

6 of this exhibit.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So are there actually to be five statements given

8 to us?

9 MS. KRAVETZ: No, there are four in total, plus a small very short

10 addendum which is just one page --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that makes five.

12 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I only have four. I do not have the statement

14 you're referring to. I don't know if my colleagues have it. We don't

15 have it at all. Now, we normally rely on this material being submitted to

16 us, and I certainly haven't read this 31-page statement.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: It was my understanding that the whole package has

18 been submitted to the Chamber. This material had been submitted already

19 at the time of our 92 bis motion, and I'm being told that on 24th October

20 all these statements were provided. So unless there's some -- has been

21 some confusion, it's my understanding that all the statements should be

22 before Your Honours.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: There are attachments to the e-mail which have

24 numbers of their own, starting with K022. Is there a particular number in

25 that series that you can identify --

Page 5348

1 MS. KRAVETZ: It's --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- for the statement over three days in September

3 2001?

4 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, the ERN range starts in K0226494.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: 6494. Now, that hasn't been included then.

6 MS. KRAVETZ: It starts in e-court as page 16 in e-court, if I'm

7 not mistaken.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We can --

9 MS. KRAVETZ: If you would prefer, Your Honours, I mean -- I know

10 it's early for a break, but if you want to review -- because I will be

11 referring only to the statement which I now understand has not been

12 provided to you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll simply have it brought up on the screen

14 as we reach the parts that you're referring to.

15 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: So the usher will arrange that it's readily

17 available.

18 MS. KRAVETZ: I -- it's my understanding that hard copies will be

19 provided shortly.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that would also be helpful.

21 Anyway, let's have the witness, please.

22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, there is one issue with one of the

23 statements. I don't know if we want to discuss it now.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on.

25 MR. IVETIC: The statement dated the 25th of September, 2001, the

Page 5349

1 six-page statement, as far as I can tell deals with Padaliste, which is no

2 longer part of these proceedings, so I think that one should be stricken

3 from the record.

4 So I think that the proper course of action would be to not admit

5 that one and then not -- counsel's already indicated she's not going to

6 ask questions about it, but as far as it's being admitted as a written

7 document under Rule 92, I think that it's improper.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, this statement -- it is correct, one of the

10 statements does refer to Padaliste. We have included it in the bundle of

11 statements to be submitted because we have the witness here and we wanted

12 to have him acknowledge that he gave that statement on this date. It may

13 occur that in the future another witness will be referring to this witness

14 in the context of Padaliste, not necessarily our scheduled incident but in

15 the context of his activities in Padaliste. So we prefer to have this

16 statement admitted at this stage just because the witness is already here.

17 But I -- it is true that I will not be asking questions with regard to

18 that statement.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's not a good ground for admitting a

20 statement that a witness happens to be here and can confirm that the

21 statement was taken. It has to be relevant to the issues in the trial.

22 And you're not making a submission to that effect, are you?

23 MS. KRAVETZ: My submission is that there may be another witness

24 who will be called to testify at a later stage who might refer to this

25 witness's testimony with regard to Padaliste, so in that context we seek

Page 5350

1 to have this statement admitted. But I do understand Your Honour's point

2 that this statement refers specifically to our scheduled incident which is

3 no longer part of this case.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: If that situation were to arise, you could then

5 have this statement admitted in terms of Rule 92 bis if all that you

6 sought was the admission of the actual statement itself so that someone --

7 to make sense of someone else's evidence.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Okay.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: But it doesn't -- it's not appropriate to admit it

10 in this context.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: Well, I would agree to proceed with that course of

12 action.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: That raises the other problem that the video which

14 is shown in the Milosevic trial, is it the Izbica video rather than the

15 Padaliste video?

16 MS. KRAVETZ: That is true.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: So there's no issue over a video that creeps in via

18 the transcript?


20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. We will exclude from P2436 the

21 statement dated the 25th of September, 2001, and which is the shorter of

22 the two statements that cover that date.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: Very well.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, let's have the witness.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 5351

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Loshi.

2 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

4 tell the truth by reading aloud from the document which will now be placed

5 before you.

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would.

7 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

8 and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

10 Do you propose to give your evidence in English?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: We've quite a bundle of material available to us

13 from previous accounts you've given for the purposes of the work of the

14 Tribunal. We have the transcript of your evidence in the Milosevic trial.

15 We have the bulk of the statements which you've given. The reason for you

16 being here today is so that counsel can explore with you further any

17 particular areas that they wish more information about for a number of

18 reasons. Because we have so much material already and because they wish

19 to concentrate on particular areas, it's very important that you pay close

20 attention to the questions and concentrate your answers on the particular

21 questions that are asked of you so that we can get as much information as

22 possible. We are not keen to go over again, except insofar as is

23 necessary, the material you've already provided to the Tribunal.

24 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the first person to ask you questions will be

Page 5352

1 for the Prosecution and that will be Ms. Kravetz.

2 Ms. Kravetz.

3 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.


5 Examination by Ms. Kravetz:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you please state your full name

7 for the record.

8 A. Excuse me, I didn't quite understand.

9 Q. I think you have to change maybe the channel, interpretation.

10 A. English, yeah.

11 Q. Yes, number 4. Could you please state your full name for the

12 record, Witness.

13 A. My name is Liri Loshi.

14 Q. When and where were you born, Mr. Loshi?

15 A. I was born on August 20th, 1960, in the Padalishte, village of

16 Padalishte, municipality of Skenderaj, or Srbica in Serbo-Croatian.

17 Q. I understand from your evidence that you're a medical doctor by

18 profession?

19 A. Yes, I am.

20 Q. And is it correct that in March 1999 you were living and

21 practising as a doctor in the area of Izbica in the municipality of

22 Skenderaj?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. For how long had you been practising as a doctor prior to the war?

25 A. For eight years.

Page 5353

1 Q. Mr. Loshi, did you provide statements to the Office of the

2 Prosecution on 19th May 1999, and on 22nd May 1999, and then again on --

3 from 23rd to 25th September 2001?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to review these statements?

6 A. Yes, I have.

7 Q. And apart from making some minor corrections and providing some

8 additional information, which has been disclosed to the Defence after your

9 proofing session, are you satisfied that these statements accurately

10 reflect the truth of the events that you describe in these statements to

11 the best of your knowledge and recollection?

12 A. Yes, I am.

13 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, at this point I seek to tender

14 Exhibit P2436, with the exclusion of the first statement --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: -- that we discussed earlier.

17 Q. Mr. Loshi, did you also testify in the Milosevic case on

18 3rd September 2002?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And at the time, was the testimony that you gave there true and

21 accurate to the best of your knowledge?

22 A. To best of my knowledge, it was truth and correct.

23 Q. And if today you were asked the same questions that you were asked

24 at the time of your testimony, would you provide the same answers?

25 A. I will try.

Page 5354

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I seek to tender P2437 at this time.

2 Q. Mr. Loshi, on page 4 of your statement dated 23rd to 25th

3 September 2001 - this is page 19 in e-court of the English and page 17 in

4 e-court of the B/C/S version - you describe how on 20th March, while you

5 were in the village of Tushille, some women approached you and told you

6 that when they were in the village of Izbica and they had been separated,

7 the women and children had been separated from a group of men, and that

8 the group of men had been taken away and that later the women had heard

9 gun-fire.

10 A. This would be true except the date. You're asking me about the

11 20th of March, which is not the case. It should be by March 29th because

12 the event of Izbica was by March 28th. And by March 20th you have another

13 event, the previous event, which happened in Serbica.

14 Q. Yes. I'm asking you about the event dated 28th March, that's

15 correct. I think that's a mis --

16 A. Okay. So would you be kind, then, to put to me a certain question

17 you would be asking.

18 Q. Yes, I was about to do that before you interrupted me, Mr. Loshi.

19 A. Sorry.

20 Q. These women, when they approached you, did they explain to you who

21 had separated the men and taken them away?

22 A. Again, please, you're --

23 Q. I'm referring to the incident that was described to you when you

24 were in Tushille on --

25 A. Okay. So you're. Asking me about the event that happened in

Page 5355

1 Izbica by 28th of March?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Okay. Now I know what you're referring to. And you wanted me to

4 describe how they approached me and stuff like that?

5 Q. Yes. What exactly did they tell you when they approached you

6 on -- while you were in Tushille, these women from Izbica.

7 A. Yeah. They came -- I was there on purpose of hiding myself from

8 Serbian forces because everybody was escaping and trying to save their

9 lives, so did I. And these women on the day of -- of 29th -- 28th came

10 from -- from Izbica to Tushille in order to escape themselves as well and

11 get refuge there, like other -- almost 20 to 25.000 people had gotten

12 already there. And I met some of these women and they told me what they

13 had experienced there.

14 I was told by a woman - and I don't remember exactly her name -

15 who told me that some, some -- I mean all of men who were in -- amongst

16 the women and children have been separated and taken away by Serbian

17 forces. And she said that even her father-in-law had been there. And

18 these women, after the men had been separated and taken away, these women

19 were chased in a different or opposite direction. So she said that right

20 after that she could hear a gun-fire. That means she wouldn't see

21 anything else except that she -- she heard gun-fire, and she assumed that

22 all these men or most of them might have gotten killed by Serbian forces,

23 including her -- her father-in-law.

24 Q. May I interrupt you there, Mr. Loshi. On the same page of your

25 statement you indicate that on 30th March you decided to go to Izbica to

Page 5356

1 find out for yourself what had occurred there. What were you able to

2 discover about this incident that had been described to you the previous

3 day, once you arrived to Izbica?

4 A. Once I arrived there, it was just like you said, 30th of March,

5 and it was the evening, because the Serbian forces during the day were

6 still there. So I was waiting -- I was looking at them from a distance,

7 from the village of Kopiliq, and I was waiting for them to go away so I

8 could get into Izbica and see with my eyes what had happened and what I

9 was told the previous day from the women I met in Tushille. So by the

10 evening sometime, the Serbian forces left Vojnik and Izbica, and I was

11 able to see them with my own eyes. And then I moved there in the evening

12 and I went to the massacre scene, because I met some guys there, some

13 people, who led me to the massacre scene. And it was a little bit dark so

14 I couldn't see well all that -- the horrible things that happened. But I

15 saw dead bodies lying down and -- and been shot and with their faces

16 disfigured and stuff like that, but I wasn't able to see quite well

17 everything at that night.

18 Q. And going back a little bit with what you were saying you said you

19 were able to see Serbian forces from Kopilic. What exactly do you mean by

20 "Serbian forces"? Are you referring to the army, to the police, to a

21 different type of unit? Who you were able to see?

22 A. I always myself used to call Serbian forces and even in the

23 statement I gave to the Tribunal of The Hague, I never mentioned any

24 other -- any other terminology except Serbian forces, because what I mean

25 by Serbian forces is what it was in reality. They were all together.

Page 5357

1 There were army forces, police forces, and paramilitary forces

2 collaborating all the time together. So I myself at that day, if you are

3 asking me for a particular day, I saw those green trucks and other

4 vehicles going by, so this was what I saw from the Kopiliq was these army

5 vehicles.

6 Q. You said that when you arrived to Izbica you met some guys there

7 and they led you to the massacre scene. Who were these people that led

8 you to the massacre scene?

9 A. I remember there was a leader of the village of Izbica who during

10 these days he was hiding himself, and his name was Naim Rexhepi. I met

11 him and he told me what had happened there. So we all together went

12 together. And with me was -- was Shaban Dragaj, who was a

13 commander-in-chief of the so-called brigade of the KLA. It was so-called

14 brigade -- Brigade 112 of KLA, and he was a commander-in-chief. So we

15 went together and we saw the scene.

16 Q. You said that it was dark and that -- but that you could see the

17 bodies.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You indicated in proofing, and this -- I'm referring to the

20 almost-to-last paragraph on page 4 of your statement of the same date that

21 you wish to correct the fact that there it says that when you arrived you

22 could not see the bodies from the massacre.

23 A. That's correct. That -- means I saw the bodies, I could see the

24 bodies, but when it's dark nobody can see the bodies well. So that's what

25 I was referring to.

Page 5358

1 Q. Did you return to these -- this location where you were able to

2 find these bodies the next day --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- in the daylight?

5 A. Yes, I did. In the early morning, next day, I went there and I --

6 I was able to see more closely what happened there.

7 Q. And what did you see at the -- at that location?

8 A. Once I entered the village, I went again to the same place I went

9 the night before. And I saw these -- these men -- almost all of them old

10 men except a few of them who might have been younger, a little bit

11 younger. And I saw them lay -- lying down on the ground, dead bodies.

12 There was a large group of all these -- these bodies, and there were two

13 groups in the meadow just close to the mountain where -- so you have an

14 edge there, and there is -- there is some bushes there.

15 So just close to those bushes there was a large group of people

16 massacred there, and this was the biggest number that I saw. And then I

17 went into the bushes and I saw some smaller group of people, say two,

18 three people, around. All of them were scattered around. And little bit

19 further you go and you again find another -- another troop and stuff like

20 that.

21 Q. Mr. Loshi, you indicate in your statement that you tried to find a

22 camera to be able to film this, and you together with Sefedin Thaqi

23 proceeded to film these bodies. Were you together with him throughout

24 when he was filming these -- these bodies at the different locations?

25 A. Unfortunately not. I was -- I wished I was with him all the time,

Page 5359

1 but, you know, when you are a doctor in those kinds of situations and you

2 have -- you are the only physician there, and you have the people that

3 have gone through massacres and people who had lost their loved ones and

4 you have them waiting for your help. So I had to go all around and help

5 people and sometimes go and watch Sefedin Thaqi how he was doing with his

6 filming and stuff like that. So I wasn't all the time.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honours, I think the copies of the statements

9 have just arrived and will be distributed.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MS. KRAVETZ: I would like to play a small video-clip at this

12 stage.

13 Q. Mr. Loshi, that will appear on your screen before you.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Mr. Loshi, did you recognise the images that were just played

17 before you?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Are these the groups of people that you found in Izbica --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- that you were are describing earlier?

22 A. Yes, they are.

23 Q. We saw on the video bodies that appeared to be at two different

24 locations.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5360

1 Q. The first group of bodies appear to be at an area with bushes.

2 Are these bodies that you yourself observed?

3 A. Yes. These are the -- the bodies that I observed by 29th of March

4 in the evening when I observed -- when I referred to what was dark, and

5 next day, the morning. And the other group is -- is in different place,

6 apart from this group. The first group would be to the west, what we

7 call, from the place where they were taken from, and the second group

8 would be to the east.

9 Q. And referring now to the first group, approximately how many

10 bodies, just very roughly, did you find there at that location?

11 A. Yeah, I never counted, myself, bodies. What -- I would say there

12 might have been approximately 60, maybe 70 people. But I'm -- I cannot be

13 specific about this.

14 Q. And you were referring to finding elderly men. Were -- what was

15 the age, approximately, of the bodies that you saw at these locations?

16 A. The -- an average age that these people I saw and what -- because

17 after that I was able to have a list of all these people that were

18 massacred in -- in these two large groups. I would say between 60 and 70,

19 even it might be higher, a higher age. It means they were very old.

20 Q. Did you see --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Ms. Kravetz, would you find a suitable point

22 at which to interrupt.

23 MS. KRAVETZ: We can interrupt here, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a number for the video we've just seen, an

25 exhibit number?

Page 5361

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, Your Honour. I believe it's P232.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?

3 MS. KRAVETZ: P232.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And that is an extract from a larger exhibit?

5 MS. KRAVETZ: That is an extract from a larger exhibit.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: And the larger exhibit is; do you know?

7 MS. KRAVETZ: That is the number for the larger --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: P232, and that is just part of it.

9 MS. KRAVETZ: That's just part of it.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Loshi, we have to interrupt now for 20

11 minutes. The usher will show you where you can wait, and we'll see you at

12 five minutes past 4.00.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll adjourn until then.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz.

19 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Loshi, just a couple of questions regarding the images we just

21 saw before moving on.

22 From the bodies that you observed, did you see any of these bodies

23 in any type of uniform?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And what type of injury did you observe, if any, on the bodies

Page 5362

1 that you personally saw?

2 A. Yeah, I observed the injuries that were caused by -- by bullets in

3 their -- in their faces, in their heads, in their bodies, mostly in their

4 faces because they had clothes on. So I saw those bullet wounded --

5 wounds in their faces. And those wounds were pretty big, so most of their

6 faces were pretty much destroyed and like -- very much destroyed.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Were you able to personally identify any of the

8 bodies you saw at either of these locations?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. Who did you identify among the victims?

11 A. I must say that in the first group I knew lots of people. I

12 couldn't tell them by their names -- I mean not all of them by the names,

13 but I remember there was, for example, in the first group there was

14 Metush Dogaj -- Metush Celaj [phoen]. There was Iljaz Bajraj and some

15 other of his cousins with the last name Bajraj as well.

16 In the other group what I mostly remember was three of my cousins

17 which I used to live close to them in my village which is called

18 Padalishte. And these were three people that belonged to three different

19 generations from the same family, which was Selman -- Selman, 82 years old

20 at that time, of execution; his son, Jashari, who was around 50 years old;

21 and his -- and Jashari's son, Sami, who was around 25 years old. And then

22 I saw in the -- in the same -- in this group where my cousins were were

23 these people that just we saw with the [indiscernible] and sticks and

24 stuff like that. So this is the -- the group with my cousins were.

25 Q. Okay. We saw in the images only bodies of male victims. Did you

Page 5363

1 also find any female victims?

2 A. Not at those places where these people were shot -- I mean there--

3 where they were found. There were no females.

4 Q. And in other --

5 A. Not at all.

6 Q. And in other locations around Izbica?

7 A. There was a woman who I believe was killed in the place where all

8 the victims were -- I mean all the -- these refugees were -- were at --

9 were trying to get a shelter or to get refuge. I believe she was -- she

10 was burnt in a tractor, and then same woman was buried in this burial site

11 where we buried all the others.

12 Q. Okay, Mr. Loshi --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz, are these names on the schedule?

14 MS. KRAVETZ: I believe some of them are, Your Honour. The --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, that's very distinctive evidence about

16 three generations in one family.

17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, these were my cousins --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- killed in this massacre, as I understand it. I

19 don't see them on the list, unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

20 MS. KRAVETZ: I do not see the names --

21 Q. Could you repeat the last names of your --

22 A. Loshi, L-o-s-h-i, the same as my last name.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: They are there.

24 MS. KRAVETZ: I think they are.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, they are there.

Page 5364

1 MS. KRAVETZ: Sami, Jashari, and Selmi. It was just incorrectly

2 noted in the transcript.

3 Q. Mr. Loshi, I would just like to play a second video clip.

4 A. Okay.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. KRAVETZ: Could you stop the clip.

7 Q. Mr. Loshi, did you recognise the images that were just played?

8 A. Sure I did.

9 Q. Could you explain to us what it was that we were just seeing

10 there.

11 A. This was the place where initially the people who wanted to get

12 refuge were gathered, and this is the very place where they were taken

13 away from Serbian forces in many -- in two different directions. One

14 group, like I said, in the east; and other one into the west. And from

15 this place, all women and children were taken in a different direction

16 again in the way to another village, which is called Turiqevc.

17 Q. What is the source of this information that you just gave us,

18 because I know that you were not there on the 28th of March when this

19 occurred.

20 A. I have -- I have gathered -- I have collected myself all the

21 information, all the relevant information after -- after I went in Izbica

22 because I wanted to make the case clear, I wanted to -- to have the event

23 filmed. I wanted to have the list of names which we provided it, and I

24 wanted to have some survivors' statements, which I provided the Tribunal

25 with my tape. And also I wanted to know everything about what -- what

Page 5365

1 happened there. So I talked to different people, and that's what I

2 figured out. And I, myself, saw these -- as you see you now, I saw them

3 with my own naked eyes.

4 Q. We --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz, again, is this the same video?

6 MS. KRAVETZ: This is the same video, yes.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And the reference that the witness has just made to

8 having "some survivors' statements, which I provided the Tribunal with my

9 tape," are the statements on the video as well?

10 MS. KRAVETZ: They are on the video; they are towards the end of

11 the video. The statement dated 23rd to 25th of September describes

12 everything that is on this video.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


15 Q. Mr. Loshi, in that video-clip we just saw we saw several burned

16 tractors and cars. Did the survivors with whom you spoke explain to you

17 how this had come about, who had burned these cars and tractors?

18 A. They -- they were describing the situation, what happened there,

19 just like I told. All the people were -- were taken away and taken in

20 three different directions. And then they burnt all cars and tractors

21 that were there.

22 Q. When you say "they," who do you mean?

23 A. I mean -- by "they," I mean Serbian forces.

24 Q. Okay. I would like to play a fourth -- a third video-clip, a very

25 short one.

Page 5366

1 A. Okay.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Mr. Loshi, are the images we just saw also part of the video you

5 filmed that day?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And could you describe to us what was taking place there in that

8 part of the video.

9 A. What we saw here is a burial where we buried all the -- these

10 bodies that were found in those places that I was just describing before,

11 and also all other victims in Izbice that were found in some other

12 different spots were brought here.

13 Q. Where exactly -- what location is this? Where exactly were the

14 victims buried?

15 A. This location is very close to the location where they were

16 concentrated to find the refugees, where the tractors -- you just saw in a

17 previous image. That means just a few steps into the -- into the left, or

18 into the east, from that place where they were -- they were concentrated,

19 where they were trying to hide themselves from shelling.

20 Q. We saw on the image a person in a uniform or part of a uniform.

21 Where there members of the KLA present during this burial?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were the persons buried that day only persons that died in that

24 massacre or were other persons also buried with the victims of the

25 massacre?

Page 5367

1 A. All the -- first of all, all the victims that were found in those

2 large groups were buried there, and except them there were few people that

3 were found in some other locations very far to this place, which is still

4 Izbica. Most of them -- some of them were just apart -- a few steps apart

5 from these large groups, and I always assumed that these were the guys

6 from the same groups again who might have tried to survive after they were

7 shot and they were trying just to get into the bushes, and they couldn't

8 make it any longer so they just fell down and -- but there were some

9 other -- other few -- few people that were found little bit farther and

10 they were buried there as well too.

11 And there were two soldiers of KLA who died -- who were killed by

12 Serbian forces again on the March of 27th, a day before this massacre

13 happened. And this was in Izbica still but in a different location

14 completely. I mean, it was pretty far away. Like, I believe it was a

15 kilometre away from that place. Maybe less than a kilometre, 700 to 800

16 metres away from that place.

17 Q. Can I stop you there?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: One of the descriptions you gave was that there

19 were a few "that were found in some other locations very far to this

20 place, which is still Izbica."

21 Now, what do you mean by "very far to this place"?

22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I never -- I never meant to say "very

23 far," and the reason I am taking my testimony today in English is that I

24 don't want to happen like last time because I figured out myself that

25 during the interpretation there have been so many mistakes that I don't

Page 5368

1 want to go through that once again. Even English is my second language, I

2 decided to take this testimony in English, so everybody could hear

3 straight for word from my mouth what I'm talking about.

4 These were not very far away. These troops, these bodies, were

5 farther from these -- from the larger -- the large groups that we found,

6 but they were still in Izbica. And Izbica itself, even if you say "very

7 far away," you can say that because it's a small village. So that doesn't

8 make sense. I might have even said that myself --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you did --


11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- but you've also just described "pretty far away"

12 as 7 to 800 metres.

13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, these were two soldiers, KLA soldiers that

14 were found, like, 7 to 800, maybe less, maybe more, away from this area.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: That clarifies the position for me. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Thank you.

17 Q. You just spoke about two KLA soldiers being found there killed.

18 Are you aware of whether there was any KLA presence in Izbica on

19 28th March from the information you were able to gather from others?

20 A. I can tell by the names. I believe there might have been some

21 soldiers of KLA around because they were trying to hide themselves. As it

22 happened, all over Drenica in these situations when you have shelling from

23 Serbian forces, very hard shelling, and, yeah, they might have been

24 somewhere in the mountains, but I know that there was none of them in

25 these groups where they were taken from women and children.

Page 5369

1 Q. And how do you know this?

2 A. I know from a statement I got from women, from statements I got

3 from witnesses I have provided with a tape, and from all the people that

4 were there. Nobody talked about that.

5 Q. Are you aware of whether there were any clashes between members of

6 the KLA and Serb forces on or around the 28th of March in the area of

7 Izbica?

8 A. Not at all.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Loshi, moving on to another subject. You state in

10 your -- in your evidence, in your written evidence, that a month later

11 after filming the -- this -- these sites you left Izbica and Kosovo and

12 headed to Albania to try to distribute the tape. Did you later return to

13 Kosovo after the war?

14 A. Yes, I did. I returned to Kosovo after NATO got in. I was there

15 by 22nd of June and went to Izbica. And now I had my own camera. I

16 provided in Tirana, the capital of Albania, where I was staying during

17 that period of time. So I used it to tape -- to tape that burial site

18 which was -- which was with no graves anymore. There were no bodies, no

19 graves. Everything was flattened.

20 Q. What do you mean there were no graves?

21 A. I mean --

22 Q. Who -- where -- who had removed -- do you know who had removed the

23 bodies?

24 A. I was told, of course, that they were removed from Serbian forces

25 during May sometime where still they had power in Kosovo, like where NATO

Page 5370

1 hadn't gone in yet.

2 Q. Who provided this information to you, if you recall?

3 A. I can't be specific in that because everybody talked about this.

4 I mean, everybody that you met would tell you about this, so why would I

5 pay attention who said this to me? And I didn't see this important at the

6 time.

7 Q. And do you have any information to where these bodies were taken,

8 as to where these bodies --

9 A. I just heard rumours. Like they were taken -- somebody said they

10 were taken again in two directions. Somebody said they were taken in the

11 direction of Klina, which is on the right side when you go to Turiqevc,

12 and somebody else told me that later on they were found in Mitrovica

13 somewhere. But this information wasn't clear to me, so I don't know much

14 about this.

15 Q. Okay. Very well. Thank you very much.

16 A. Thank you.

17 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, these are all my questions for this

18 witness. I would like to tender this witness -- the video that this

19 witness has been referring to which is Exhibit P232. There are also a set

20 of photographs which are still photos from the same video which are

21 referred to in his statement dated 23rd to 25th September 2002 -- 2001,

22 and these are Exhibits P230 and 231.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, these will be admitted. The other film

24 that's just been referred to taken after the 22nd of June isn't an

25 exhibit, I don't think?

Page 5371

1 MS. KRAVETZ: I don't think that's an exhibit in this case.

2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I never brought the tape here because I

3 was never asked for that. But if the Prosecution needs that, I would

4 provide them with it, if they need it as an evidence.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, first will be counsel for General

8 Lukic, and then we'll follow the indictment.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Loshi. My name is Dan Ivetic, and I'm one of

13 the attorneys representing Sreten Lukic relative to these proceedings. I

14 have some questions for you here today with which I hope to clear up some

15 matters from your various statements and your testimony here today.

16 Therefore, it's very important for you to pay close attention to the

17 questions that I ask so to ensure that your answers directly and concisely

18 relate to the questions that I ask, because we do have some time

19 constraints with respect to your testimony.

20 Now, at the beginning of the statement dated the 23rd and 25th of

21 September, 2001, you state that when you left Padaliste you spent some

22 time in the village of Leocina, or Leqin in the Albanian. With whom did

23 you live in this village after you had left Padaliste?

24 A. I lived with -- in the family of Demush Dragaj, who was my close

25 friend. I lived in this family -- with this family, in their house.

Page 5372

1 Q. And is Demush Dragaj related to your other friend Shaban Dragaj?

2 A. They are related to each other, but Shaban Dragaj was a KLA member

3 and a KLA komandir, while Demush, who I stayed with, wasn't.

4 Q. Okay. And are both Demush and Shaban also related to Mustafa

5 Dragaj?

6 A. They are distant cousins, I believe.

7 Q. Okay. Now, during the time-period that you spent in Leocina, or

8 Leqin, were there supporters of the KLA in the village at that time?

9 A. Initially they weren't. Like, I -- I can't remember where, but

10 KLA was a very small group and they started to grow. And as it was

11 growing, then they got everywhere, in Leqin, in Padalishte and Izbice and

12 Vojnik and everywhere.

13 Q. Okay. Would it be correct to state that prior to March 24th in

14 the year 1999, although they kept a low profile the UCK/KLA actually

15 controlled Leqin, or Leocina, and the surrounding areas in the Srbica

16 municipality?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. How many KLA personnel were located in Leocina during the

19 time-period that you were there?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Okay. Now during the time-period that you were in Leocina, am I

22 correct that the local Serbs from that village had already left and that

23 by that time the population was exclusively Albanian by 1999, the

24 beginning of 1999?

25 A. I am not quite sure, but I believe so.

Page 5373

1 Q. Okay. Now, I'd just like to discuss and clarify your various

2 employment positions very briefly.

3 Now, according to your statements, which we've read so we don't

4 need you to repeat everything there, you were a reporter for an Albanian

5 TV station from June 1998 onwards and also joined a medical team in the

6 village of Turiqevc I think at approximately that same time.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you go on to state that you helped the UCK/KLA by

9 first treating soldiers and then, in fact, joined that organisation, the

10 UCK/KLA, in August of 1998. Now, what I'd like to ask first of all is

11 when exactly did you begin helping the UCK/KLA by treating their

12 soldiers. In relation to the time you started the medical team in

13 Turiqevc, was it before, after?

14 A. It was the same -- approximately at the same time. Like, maybe a

15 month before.

16 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And in fact, how many other medical care

17 personnel worked with you in treating the UCK/KLA?

18 A. In treating UCK/KLA, we treat -- we treat KLA just like all

19 others , all the other civilians -- I mean all civilian people. We didn't

20 make any distinguishings between KLA and civilians. So we treat them --

21 all our medical team was engaged with treating both civilians and with

22 UCK/KLAs -- I mean KLA. KLA were members of the houses and people that

23 lived in the same area, so we couldn't treat them in a different way than

24 civilians.

25 Q. Okay. In the course of treating UCK fighters, did you have

Page 5374

1 occasion to note whether wounded UCK fighters wore uniforms or civilian

2 clothes or was it a case where sometimes they'd wear one and sometimes the

3 other.

4 A. Most of the time they wore uniforms. Sometimes same KLA members

5 would wear civilian clothes as well, which was with my case. I most of

6 the time wore civilian clothes.

7 Q. You most of the time wore civilian clothes. Did you, in fact,

8 carry a weapon at any time while you were a member of UCK/KLA?

9 A. Yes. Once became a member of the KLA, I got a weapon, and I

10 believe this was my reason why I became -- why I became a member of KLA

11 to -- in case to protect myself.

12 Q. Okay. And while carrying that weapon you at all times wore

13 civilian clothes. Is that correct?

14 A. Not all the time. Sometimes I -- I had a uniform, so during my

15 working time I would always work -- wear civilian clothes, but sometimes

16 during -- I mean after my work I would wear a uniform as well.

17 Q. Okay. And am I correct that you also had relatives within the KLA

18 as well?

19 A. Relatives, no.

20 Q. What about Zeqir Loshi, whom you identify as a KLA fighter in your

21 statement of 25th September 2001?

22 A. That he fighted as a KLA soldier?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. I don't believe this, but he might have been KLA soldier. And he

25 is not my -- he is not my relative. He is my distant cousin.

Page 5375

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. But I do know him.

3 Q. Do you recall whether, in fact, he was a KLA soldier or not?

4 A. I saw him without uniform. I saw him with a gun. He might have

5 been KLA.

6 Q. Okay. Now, what was the official designation or name of the KLA

7 detachment that you joined in August of 1998?

8 A. There was just a small group of KLA. They were just a group,

9 nothing else. It had no name.

10 Q. No name. Okay. You mentioned previously the 112 --

11 A. Brigade.

12 Q. -- Brigade --

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. So this was a separate group from that?

15 A. This is -- in fact, I just said that the KLA was growing as

16 Serbian forces were -- were -- were being more offensive and perpetrating

17 massacres around and stuff like that, then KLA started to grow.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And that's what -- I believe these brigades that were formed, they

20 were just some kind of brigades. I wouldn't call them myself brigades

21 because we didn't have too many numbers of soldiers to make brigades and

22 stuff like that.

23 But before that I know that some international analysts and some

24 people from international community would call KLA as -- as terrorist

25 groups. So they figured out that they should organise themselves into

Page 5376

1 what would be close to -- to regular army. And that's how it started to

2 be -- I mean to organise themselves into brigades, to have uniforms, to

3 have their signs, to have a command. But this was just -- I believe this

4 was just an imitation of a regular army, but I wouldn't call this as a

5 regular army myself.

6 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that your detachment fell under the

7 auspices of the so-called Drenica operative zone of the KLA?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many other KLA detachments were you aware of that operated in

10 the Srbica municipality?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned a whole list of various villages in the

13 area where the UCK/KLA was operating. Are those all in the Srbica

14 municipality?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Now, did you continue reporting for the TV station during

17 the commencement of the NATO bombings?

18 A. No. Because I didn't have access to a phone because all the phone

19 lines were corrupted.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. And you couldn't -- couldn't do any information.

22 Q. Prior to that time, during the time-period that you were working

23 for the TV station, am I correct that your KLA colleagues used your role

24 as a journalist with the TV station as a means to have people hear what

25 they wanted about the situation in Srbica; that is to say, did you serve

Page 5377

1 as an information source for the KLA to reach the outside world?

2 A. No. I was serving -- I was -- in fact, I was volunteering as -- I

3 never got paid from TV station so I would be called as a worker of them.

4 I just was volunteering doing my time there. I found that very important

5 since during my life as a student in Pristina I had worked for a newspaper

6 called Bota e Re, which means a new world, and I was a journalist there so

7 I had some experience. And once the war started and I got myself there, I

8 thought -- I found that a good idea if I was engaging myself into

9 information, so people around and there all -- and I mean anyone that

10 could have access to my information would -- would be aware of what was

11 going on.

12 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of 1998 and the early part of 1999,

13 isn't it correct that the KLA in the Drenica operative zone and within the

14 Srbica municipality established roadblocks and attacked Serbian forces?

15 A. I am not aware of these blocks that you are referring to because I

16 was living in Leqin. I myself moved from Runik where I was working as a

17 doctor, and so it was impossible to be there anymore because of Serbian

18 forces that had occupied that area. And just when I moved into Leqin, I

19 didn't have access to those places that you are referring to.

20 But as far as I know myself, KLA soldiers weren't there to attack

21 Serbian forces; they were there to protect themselves and innocent

22 civilian people as much as they could. And that's what their job was.

23 That's what they were trying to do.

24 Q. Well, sir, isn't it a fact that the KLA attacked Serb civilians

25 and Albanian civilians as well as Roma civilians who did not support their

Page 5378

1 armed activities is?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, sir, you talked about being in Leocina and the fact that the

4 Serb civilians had left Leocina. Isn't it a fact that several Serb

5 civilians from the Smigic -- or Zmigic households in Leocina were abducted

6 and killed by the KLA immediately prior to the Serbs leaving the village?

7 A. I don't know about this event.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know whether in fact the -- I just have to wait for

9 the transcript to catch up with us.

10 Do you know if, in fact, the KLA collected a war tax from the

11 civilian population to finance and support its activities?

12 A. No. What I know is that people -- civilian people were helping

13 KLA because KLA members were members of their family as well.

14 Q. Okay. Now, if I could ask you a couple of questions generally

15 about March 1999 before we move to Izbica specifically.

16 In paragraph 9 of the English statement, the 23rd/25th September

17 2001 statement that the Prosecution counsel had asked you about, you

18 describe the KLA as not being strong enough to resist the Serbs and that

19 most of the time the KLA was fleeing with the civilians. Now, the

20 question I want to ask you is: When the KLA would flee with the civilians

21 would they take their weapons with them?

22 A. What I said here was that KLA were fleeing because they were not

23 strong enough to protect civilians and to protect themselves from Serbian

24 forces, because Serbian forces had strong machine-guns and arms, so they

25 could never resist them. Most of the time they didn't flee with -- with

Page 5379

1 the civilians. So if there were any of KLA found among civilians, they

2 were with no guns.

3 Q. What about uniforms, would the KLA when they fled with civilians,

4 would they keep their uniforms or would they change into civilian clothes?

5 A. I must say -- I must say that some of KLA soldiers -- some of KLA

6 soldiers would have fled with civilians in order to take their families in

7 some safer places.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. And when they went there, most of them left. Some of them was

10 very scared of Serbian forces. They might have still be there, but with

11 no arms and with no --

12 Q. Weapons.

13 A. -- I mean weapons and no uniforms.

14 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you another question. You indicated that

15 many civilians assisted the KLA and that the KLA had many family members

16 among the civilians. Isn't it a fact that the KLA forces in the area

17 around Izbica specifically ordered the civilian populations from such

18 areas, such as Ozrim and Leocina, to leave those areas and gather in

19 Izbica in and around the 25th and 26th of March, 1999?

20 A. No. No, that never happened.

21 Q. Okay. Now --

22 A. There was another reason to leave -- I mean for them to leave

23 their houses. There was shelling all over their houses and villages, so

24 they had no choice but to leave.

25 Q. All right. Sir, please, if you could restrict yourself to the

Page 5380

1 questions that I ask --

2 A. I'm trying.

3 Q. -- because I indicated we have very little time, and I'm trying to

4 ensure that we complete your testimony within the time-period that we

5 have.

6 Now, in your statement you describe how on the 27th of March you

7 went to Tushille and that there were KLA soldiers there among the

8 civilians and that these -- many of these soldiers were with their

9 families. First of all, from what villages were these civilians and KLA

10 from; that is to say, the civilians who were family members of the KLA?

11 A. From different villages, from very different villages.

12 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, before we turn to the end of March 1999, in

13 your statement you describe an event on the 20th of March, 1999, when you

14 say you heard about Serb forces surrounding Srbica. Now, first of all,

15 sir, you were not an eye-witness to these events on the 20th of March,

16 1999, in Srbica, were you?

17 A. No, I wasn't.

18 Q. Okay. And did you -- I apologise. Again, I have to slow down.

19 Since we're both speaking English, we have to slow down for the

20 translators.

21 And did you hear from people or did you know through your

22 affiliation with the KLA that the KLA, in fact, had mounted a major

23 assault on the police station in Srbica that morning, the morning of

24 March 20th, 1999, resulting in casualties among the Serbian police forces

25 in Srbica?

Page 5381

1 A. No, I never heard of this, and I believe this never happened.

2 Q. Okay. But you were never present to confirm that it didn't

3 happen. Is that correct?

4 A. I wasn't present, but I was told by people who came to -- to see

5 me in my office where I was working as a doctor, and even I treated them

6 and they told me about everything what happened there. So if you want me

7 to describe what I -- what I was -- I mean what I heard from them, I can,

8 but since you want me to --

9 Q. We have that in your statement, sir.

10 A. Okay.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: There is a suggestion of Serb casualties on that

12 day, including a number killed. Is there some explanation that you can

13 give us for that, or do you just not accept that there were any casualties

14 at all?

15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I don't believe this because I was

16 very close to civilians. I was very close to KLA soldiers, and I never

17 happened to hear such a thing happened.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Ivetic.

20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, sir, you talked about how the KLA was actually, as you

22 described it, not quite organised but that the idea of it being an army

23 was somewhat of a -- I can't remember if you used the word "illusion" or

24 not. But was it common for groups of KLA fighters to operate

25 independently of one another in a given region such that they would not

Page 5382

1 know what other KLA factions were doing?

2 A. I can't answer this because I don't -- I don't even quite

3 understand your question. I have an idea, but I don't think this -- this

4 is the answer I could help.

5 Q. Well, let me ask you this, sir: In your detachment or group of

6 the KLA, did you know each and every single day what other KLA units in

7 the area, in the neighbouring villages, in the neighbouring hill-sides,

8 what they were doing?

9 A. In -- yeah. I know -- I know that most of them -- I mean, as far

10 as I could get -- got any information at the time, what were they doing in

11 these areas. Maybe not for every one --

12 Q. Well, for instance, sir, when you were asked by the Prosecutor

13 about the presence of the KLA in Izbica, I believe that you testified that

14 there -- they may be there, but you're not sure. Would that, in fact,

15 show that your group did not know the whereabouts and the activities of

16 all other KLA forces in the area?

17 A. Yeah. When we talk about this, we don't have to do with any kind

18 of activities. We have to do with KLA members who wanted to escape and

19 find refuge in the mountains. So they were all over mountains anywhere

20 they could go. And I know that at that time when Serbian forces started

21 to shell the area, they were told by their commanders that they could go

22 anywhere just to save their lives. So we really don't know where they

23 were. They were hiding themselves. They were into mountains somewhere,

24 and the good thing about that was that Serbian forces never went into

25 mountains to get KLA, but they went in open places and killed the innocent

Page 5383

1 people.

2 Q. Sir --

3 A. They didn't chase much KLA --

4 Q. Sir, now, you were not present to see any persons being killed,

5 were you?

6 A. Any persons being killed?

7 Q. Yes. In Izbica.

8 A. You mean I didn't see the process of execution or what do you mean

9 by that?

10 Q. You did not see anyone being killed, in the process of being

11 killed. You were not an eye-witness to any killings?

12 A. No, I wasn't --

13 Q. Okay. Thank you.

14 A. But I saw lots of people that were killed after they were killed.

15 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir. Now, if we focus on Izbica and your

16 knowledge of events there. First of all, you mention one of your friends,

17 this UCK commander Shaban Dragaj. Did you hear from Shaban or from any

18 other persons that you went to Izbica with or spoke with that in fact they

19 had seen local Serbs who had previously resided in Leocina, specifically

20 members of the Zmigic household, that were seen in uniform leading the

21 forces in Izbica, the Serb forces in Izbica?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Now, are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of

24 Abedin Dragaj also from Leocina who was with Shaban Dragaj when the Serbs

25 entered Izbica?

Page 5384

1 A. I don't know this person.

2 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

3 A. I don't believe he was. Because I was with Shaban Dragaj myself

4 lots of times, and I can't remember this Abedin Dragaj. I don't know who

5 he was.

6 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Are you familiar with a KLA soldier by the

7 name of Ramadan Dragaj from Leocina village?

8 A. No, I don't. I don't know this person.

9 Q. Okay. Would you be surprised to find out that you identified

10 Ramadan Dragaj in your September 25th, 2001, statement as one of the three

11 persons who appeared on the film with you, and it says: "Ramadan Dragaj,

12 a KLA soldier from Leqin."

13 A. Ramadan Dragaj.

14 Q. In addition to yourself, Zenil [phoen] Loshi and Zabat [phoen]

15 Dragaj, also from Leqin.

16 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I just forgot his name. Yeah.

17 Q. No problem. That's why I'm here to --

18 A. I know him, yeah.

19 Q. That's why I'm here to refresh your recollection. Now let me ask

20 you about this: Do you know whether this Ramadan Dragaj, this KLA

21 soldier, was he related to Shaban Dragaj, Demush Dragaj, or --

22 A. I believe.

23 Q. -- Mustafa Dragaj?

24 A. They all are cousins, but they would be distant cousins, I guess.

25 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Just waiting for the transcript again.

Page 5385

1 Now, did you hear from your friend Shaban, the KLA commander, or

2 anyone else that you went to Izbica with since you stated that you went

3 there with some friends and some people, did you hear from any of these

4 people that on the fateful day of March the 26th or 27th, 1999, while the

5 civilians were gathered in the lower part of Izbica village that in fact

6 the KLA forces had massed and gathered in the upper part of Izbica

7 village, from where it was planned to attack and resist the Serb forces?

8 A. No. This never happened.

9 Q. Okay. Is it correct that -- is it correct that -- well, strike

10 that.

11 Who were the other friends that you went to Izbica village with on

12 the evening of the 30th of March?

13 A. This was Shaban Dragaj, one, the one that I mentioned; the other

14 one -- I mean this was the guy who I went to because I met him in Kopiliq

15 where I was staying myself for the time being, for the day, and we went

16 there together. I believe just him and me. I don't think there was any

17 other person with -- with us. But when we went to Leqin, we met Demush

18 Dragaj, my friend, who I lived in this house before, and we asked for the

19 leader of the village, who was Naim Rexhepi, and these people are the ones

20 that I remember of.

21 Q. Okay.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, can you be more specific about that

23 question. You're suggesting here that there's some conflict, possibly a

24 conflict, on 26th or 27th of March envisaged.

25 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

Page 5386

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And you talk about a plan to attack and resist the

2 Serb forces. What were the Serb forces and where were they?

3 MR. IVETIC: I'm responding to the fact that this witness

4 testified that there were two KLA soldiers that were killed on the 27th of

5 March, and he claims that there were no clashes. So I'm wondering how KLA

6 soldiers --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, but this is a very specific question about

8 a massing of people in one part of the village to attack --

9 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. We had testimony of this from other

10 witnesses --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: -- and resist the Serb forces. Now, who are these

12 Serb forces?

13 MR. IVETIC: I don't know. It wasn't specified in the evidence

14 that we heard through, I believe, it was Mustafa Dragaj when I confronted

15 him with some of the statements made by Abedin Dragaj in his sworn

16 statement to the OTP regarding what he observed with Shaban Dragaj, the

17 KLA commander, whom Mustafa Dragaj claimed was not a KLA commander.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


20 Q. Now --

21 THE WITNESS: Can I just make a point here, please? I know myself

22 that Shaban Dragaj during 27th of March and further wasn't he, himself, in

23 Izbica.


25 Q. That's correct, he was not, he was in the mountains surrounding

Page 5387

1 Izbica.

2 A. No, he was a little bit farther away. He was in Kopilic

3 mountains, which is not in Izbica, it is even a bit farther. There is

4 another village in between these two parts.

5 Q. All right. We'll see about that.

6 Now, with respect to your statement of 23 and 25 September 2001,

7 in that statement, in describing on page 4, the second-to-last paragraph

8 on that page you say: "The same evening I went into the village of Izbica

9 together with some friends. One of my friends was Shaban Dragaj, a KLA

10 commander. It was dark when we arrived there, so we could not see the

11 bodies from the massacre, but we heard from people what had happened."

12 Now, I find it odd that this statement from 2001, which you

13 confirmed to be accurate at the time that you testified in the Milosevic

14 proceedings, states that you could not see the bodies; and now today, for

15 the first time, you are telling us that in fact that evening you could and

16 in fact did see the bodies at the location where they were killed.

17 A. I'm sorry, but what you're saying here -- okay, is this your

18 question?

19 Q. I haven't gotten to my question yet.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. The question I want to ask you is, sir: When you read the

22 statement dated the 23rd and 25th of September, 2001, in the English

23 language before signing it, did you in fact read this portion of it and

24 confirm that this was true to the investigator from the OTP?

25 A. First of all, I want to answer in the comment you made just before

Page 5388

1 this because I feel responsible of that. I want you to clarify that even

2 in the Milosevic case I made it clear that I saw the bodies. You have to

3 take the statement once again and read -- go through it and see that I

4 made it clear that there was a mistake in the statement, so I wanted to

5 correct it and I did. And if I didn't pay attention -- I mean attention

6 to every word when I signed the statement, I don't see this of a big deal.

7 Q. Okay. Now, am I correct that Shaban Dragaj was with you when you

8 decided to obtain a camera and film the site in Izbica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And in fact, would it be accurate to state that -- now, I

11 know you -- once the -- once Mr. Thaqi arrived with the camera, then

12 several -- you were not with Mr. Thaqi and the camera the entire time, but

13 during that portion of the time when the bodies were being filmed and when

14 the burial was being prepared, is it correct that Shaban Dragaj was still

15 with you and in fact was involved in organising and leading the efforts to

16 film the bodies and to prepare for the burial of the bodies?

17 A. No, no. I believe he even wasn't there. I mean, this day maybe

18 he was and maybe he was [sic]. I can't remember. I was so busy myself,

19 but I never recall that he was there. He still might have been. I'm not

20 being much specific about this. But he didn't take place -- he didn't

21 take place with taping and stuff like that, no.

22 Q. Okay. Now, this Sefedin Thaqi, who actually had the camera and

23 did the filming, do you know whether he was in fact a KLA member?

24 A. He wasn't. Never.

25 Q. Okay. Good. Now, I'd like to ask you about --

Page 5389

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you move on.

2 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: In your -- in the transcript of the Milosevic trial

4 you were asked the question: "Was Shaban Dragaj present with you all the

5 time?" This is when you're filming.

6 THE WITNESS: He was with me all the time when I went in the

7 evening by May the 30th, he was with me all the time, that's correct, but

8 not the next day because I had my own things to do. I was busy, like I

9 said, with my own things as -- my own business as a doctor.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And you also in fact go on to say: "We were not

11 able to see the bodies clearly" --


13 JUDGE BONOMY: "But the truth is we did see them and that is what

14 I stated." Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

18 Q. Now, I have a question to clear up with your statement of 19 May

19 1999. The first page of that statement you're describing the videotape

20 that we've seen portions of here today. And you say in that statement

21 under oath: "I recorded this videotape myself on March 31st, 1999, and

22 this original exhibit has been in my constructive possession from the time

23 of filming until now."

24 Now, we already know, thanks to the testimony that you gave in

25 your subsequent statements as well as here today, that in fact this

Page 5390

1 statement you made under oath is not true and accurate because Mr. Thaqi

2 is the one who recorded the video. Now, is it also the case that the

3 second part of this statement, that is to say that you had the original

4 tape in your constructive possession at all times before delivery to the

5 Prosecutor, that statement is not accurate and in fact is false. Isn't

6 that correct?

7 A. No. This is correct, but I believe this is a misunderstanding.

8 Because what I was -- what I said there or what I was trying to explain

9 there, and I did -- I believe I did so, was that just after the taping was

10 done by Sefedin Thaqi in -- after a few days, I believe this was April 3rd

11 or 4th, I can't remember it now, we transferred the whole filming from his

12 tape to VHS tape, which I had it all the time in my possession. But that

13 tape I couldn't bring with myself to Albania because I found it very

14 dangerous to take it with myself. Later on I meant I could and I would,

15 but I never did because I found it too dangerous. And then I was trying

16 to get a hold of Sefedin Thaqi's tape, which I did. And this is how this

17 Sefedin Thaqi's tape got into Tribunal and not my tape that you're

18 referring to, which, of course, like you said, was in my possession all

19 the time. And I believe now it's in a possession of Tribunal of The Hague

20 as well.

21 Q. Now, with respect to Mr. Thaqi's tape, am I correct that this tape

22 was at one point in time stolen by some thieves?

23 A. Yes. At the time where I was looking for this tape, his own

24 camera was stolen, I believe not because of the tape but because -- the

25 tape was stolen because of camera. The thieves didn't even know what was

Page 5391

1 in. And then with the help of Shaban Dragaj I get a hold of this tape

2 again.

3 Q. You say with the help of Shaban Dragaj. Were the persons who had

4 stolen the camera, were they members of the KLA?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Okay. Now, as far as the filming of the tape is concerned, you

7 had already stated that you did not accompany at all times Mr. Thaqi as he

8 filmed. Now, in particular with the segment that we saw earlier today,

9 the first segment where we saw the set of bodies, as a medical doctor

10 would you have expected there to be more blood at such a dramatic and

11 large-numbered amount of corpses in the same location, particularly more

12 blood on the ground surrounding these bodies?

13 A. Would I expect it as a medical doctor?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I don't know. I don't know.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. But I'm telling you that I saw lots of blood there. And if you

18 look carefully at those tape, you will be able to see some of it too.

19 Q. Okay. Now, I have -- now -- strike that.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you think this tape has been doctored in any way

22 or does it represent what you saw at the scene?

23 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so, that -- because I have the

24 other VHS tape which is in Tribunal possession now, and these two can be

25 compared very easily.

Page 5392

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


3 Q. Now, is it correct that you do not even know the exact location

4 where this first group of bodies was filmed?

5 A. No, I know the correct location. What I didn't know when I was

6 asked by Prosecutor, first of all, was that he showed to me a picture with

7 faces that cannot be recognised. I mean, from the picture, you cannot say

8 if you don't see the faces then you cannot tell where they were. But as

9 we went on through the -- through the film -- I mean through the tape, I

10 was able to recognise the places.

11 Q. Okay. Now, if we can move on to the actual burials themselves.

12 You've already identified that certain KLA soldiers were among those that

13 had been -- that had been buried there at the location in Izbica, and you

14 mentioned certain other people from other locations. Is it correct that

15 some bodies buried at this location were brought from elsewhere,

16 specifically from villages as far away as the Klina municipality?

17 A. I'm sorry, but you make me laugh at this because it is correct

18 that some of people were from Klina, but these people were gathered here

19 in order to find refuge. And these people were killed there. These were

20 old people. You have the names there, and you might be able to see how

21 old they were. So there were people from Jashanica, which is -- which

22 belonged to the municipality of Klina, elderly people, and there were

23 people from different parts of Drenica that had come to Izbica because

24 they thought it would be a much safer place than elsewhere. So that's how

25 you find these people from Klina that have been killed in Izbica.

Page 5393

1 Q. Would you be surprised to find out that one of the survivors from

2 Izbica came here and testified and said that bodies were brought from

3 other locations in the months following the Izbica burial and buried in

4 the Izbica location? That's what I was referring to, sir.

5 A. I know that later on there were other -- after this massacre

6 happened there were some bodies -- some other people or soldiers who died

7 and they were brought in the same burial site just because they didn't

8 want to dig graves in other places.

9 Q. Okay. So we do follow each other.

10 Now, as far as the number of persons buried at Izbica at that

11 time, that is to say the end of March 1999, am I correct that you don't

12 know how many bodies were precisely from the massacre, since bodies were

13 brought from other locations to the grave-site, and you and the others

14 viewed all the bodies as being victims of the conflict with no need to

15 categorise where and from whence they came from? And I'm trying to find

16 out whether that's what you meant in your statement of 23/25 September at

17 page 28, paragraph 6, when you uttered those words. That is to say, of

18 the 127 bodies that were buried there that day, you don't know exactly how

19 many of those were from the massacre that you described hearing about from

20 other people, do you?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I don't have any more questions

24 for this witness. I do believe at least some of my colleagues do. So

25 hopefully we have enough time for them. I tried to be brief.

Page 5394

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Just one matter you could clarify in

2 relation to this last question.

3 You're saying that you don't know exactly how many of these that

4 were buried there that day were from the massacre. So where else might

5 they have been from, the ones that were buried that day?

6 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, you have there two large groups of

7 people, two large groups, and the other one -- the first large group is

8 made up by two groups again. And then you have other -- other people

9 found around. And I just explained it before that there was people that

10 were found in those other spots, other places, still in Izbica itself.

11 And these people were from -- from there. So they might have gotten

12 killed in different events, they might have gotten killed in the same

13 event. I wasn't there. I don't know. But most of the people who were

14 there were taken from these two large groups, and these were the people

15 that were buried there. And there was two soldiers that I was referring

16 to. So this is my explanation.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but that explanation relates only to people

18 who were buried there at the time you showed the preparations for the

19 burial on the video.

20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you said.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That explanation relates only to people who were

22 buried there at the time we saw the burial --


24 JUDGE BONOMY: -- preparations on the video.


Page 5395

1 JUDGE BONOMY: And we've just been hearing that there were later

2 people brought from elsewhere and buried in the same place.

3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, even after -- like when we taped it, there

4 were 127 people that were buried in the same grave-site. And later on I

5 heard that -- I wasn't there, I was in Albania at that period of time.

6 There was some other people, they might have been KLA soldiers killed

7 afterwards were buried in the same -- in the same place. Or civilians, I

8 don't know.


10 Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: If I'd like just to ask just one question to clarify

12 that.



15 Q. Relating specifically to the persons, the 127 persons who were

16 buried at that grave-site on or about March the 30th or 31st of 1999, in

17 your statement you say on page 28: "Finally, I will say that I am not

18 quite sure how many of the 127 persons we buried at the grave-site

19 actually were from the massacre. Some of these bodies were brought to the

20 grave-site from other locations. They were all victims of the conflict,

21 and we did not at that time categorise the bodies from where they were

22 killed."

23 Now, by that, did you mean that there were persons in addition to

24 the two soldiers that you have identified, the KLA soldiers, additional

25 persons that were brought from other locations to Izbica to be buried at

Page 5396

1 the location. Is that what these words in your statement mean?

2 A. No, no. When I say -- when I say they were, like you said,

3 about -- you mentioned the word "conflict." The word "conflict" was used

4 in a sense of being in conflict, Albanians and Serbians, for a long time,

5 and during this war as well, but not for a combat or something. This

6 doesn't have to do with a combat. I have explained this even in my

7 previous testimony with Milosevic case.

8 Q. But with respect to -- but with respect to who where -- here

9 you're talking about the burials that took place of the persons on that

10 day, and even in your own words, if I go down further, you say you would

11 estimate the number of people from the massacre to be between 110 and 120

12 persons. So based upon my arithmetic, that would mean that at least -- at

13 least 7 if not 17 persons came from other locations.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So obviously you had knowledge of it in 2001 when this statement

16 was taken.

17 A. Yes. There were some people like -- just when we were talking

18 about the women that was killed in the -- I mean, was buried by Serbian

19 forces -- who was burned by Serbian forces in the tractor and she was

20 taken in the same place as well, and there was some other civilians that

21 were killed in some different places because when Serbian forces entered

22 in --

23 Q. That's all I wanted to find out, sir --

24 A. -- they killed anyone they got.

25 MR. IVETIC: Well, I think I've gotten the clarification that I

Page 5397

1 needed, Your Honour. I'm completed again, for the second time.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No questions.


5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

7 MR. SEPENUK: No questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: No questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a couple of questions.

12 Thank you, Your Honour, very briefly.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Loshi, I'm Djuro Cepic --

15 A. I don't have translation in English.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Number 4 is the channel, if you can move the ...

17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Good afternoon or good evening, Mr. Loshi. I'm Djuro Cepic, one

19 of the attorneys on the Defence team of Mr. Lazarevic.

20 Several times today you confirmed that you had seen those bodies

21 that were filmed, and on page 40 of the transcript at the explicit

22 question of my learned friend Ms. Kravetz, you responded that none of the

23 bodies were dressed in a uniform. Do you stand by that statement,

24 Mr. Loshi?

25 A. Yes, I stand by my statement that none of the bodies that were

Page 5398

1 taken from massacre site where we filmed were in the uniforms. But if you

2 are talking and referring for the uniforms that were found in -- in the --

3 the grave-site or burial site, I would clarify that there was a member of

4 KLA and his name was Ajet Beqiri who was killed by 27th of March together

5 with his friend and member of KLA as well, whose name was Zaim Bajrami.

6 But Zaim Bajrami was a KLA member, but he wasn't wearing a uniform; he was

7 in civilian clothes.

8 Q. And this first one was buried in the uniform of the so-called KLA.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yeah. Ajet Beqiri was buried in KLA uniform.

11 Q. And were there any other persons wearing parts of uniform among

12 those who were filmed?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Your statement is quite voluminous, the one from 2001. And I will

15 only remind you on page 24, paragraph 1 of the English version you name

16 Ajet Beqiri, born in 1960, and you state that he was killed as a KLA

17 fighter, fighting man. There is something illogical here, but I think

18 that was clarified in the Milosevic trial. In a statement you said it was

19 after the massacre, and later you corrected that to the 27th.

20 On the next page, however, it is stated, that's tape 31.49 and

21 31.54 seconds, it is stated that the first one had a soldier's green

22 jacket and the other one had a military green coat. Is that your -- that

23 is your statement. Is that correct?

24 A. I don't remember I said that.

25 Q. If you don't remember, it is in your statement. Thank you.

Page 5399

1 A. I don't believe -- I didn't say that.

2 Q. Did you sign the statement in 2001?

3 A. Sure I did. I believe you are misinterpreting my statement

4 because, as far as I know, there was only one soldier wearing uniform, if

5 you mean in the day of burying these people from the massacre, and his

6 name was Ajet Beqiri. I don't -- I am not aware that somebody else had

7 any part of uniform or something like that.

8 Q. Mr. Loshi, I quoted your statement page 25 of the English version,

9 but if that is your evidence we will move on.

10 Page 4, paragraph 4 of the English version; page 3, last paragraph

11 you describe how you stayed in Tusilje village until 29th March and then

12 we heard the rest of your story about how you continued to move. While

13 you were in Tushille village, did you hear of any fighting going on,

14 namely that KLA was fighting in nearby villages?

15 A. No, there was no fighting.

16 Q. And do you know where Likovac village is?

17 A. Yes, I know, but I wasn't there that time and I had no connection

18 with Likovc. I cannot tell anything about Likovc.

19 Q. And you never heard that policemen were killed there on the 26th

20 of March and policemen were wounded on the 24th of March. Is that your

21 evidence today?

22 A. Yeah. I'd been suggested about this in Milosevic case by

23 Milosevic himself, and I just didn't know about that. I said it might

24 have happened, but it doesn't matter to me because my testimony is related

25 to Izbica. And I even said there and I am saying now that there is no

Page 5400

1 excuse for Serbian forces if there was -- there was any combat involvement

2 of KLA in Likovc that they -- that Serbian --

3 Q. Thank you, we've heard that.

4 A. [Previous translation continues] ... innocent people in Izbica.

5 Q. [In English] Mr. Loshi, I just specified my question.

6 A. Okay, but you don't have to interrupt me either.

7 MR. CEPIC: Okay, Your Honour --

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Loshi.

9 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, I haven't got any further questions for

10 this witness. Thank you.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just give me a moment to ask one question

12 which may give rise to something.

13 The discussion you've had just a moment ago about the uniforms,

14 what it says on page 25 of your statement is: "Man, grey/black sweater,

15 military green jacket." And then the following description is: "Man,

16 bluish jacket" --


18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- "military green overcoat, covered in a grey/red

19 woolen blanket." And so far as the identity of each of these is

20 concerned, the entry is unknown.

21 Now, the suggestion that's being made to you is that these may be

22 examples of uniforms being worn by these victims. Can you comment on

23 that?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Now I got exactly what he meant,

25 and thank you very much for these explanations. Because there is -- in my

Page 5401

1 testimony there is a part of that whole testimony that I didn't do it

2 myself. It's a part of -- of the investigator who -- who did those

3 columns, and it should be in those columns. Is it?


5 THE WITNESS: Okay. So that wasn't my comment about that.

6 They -- he might have -- might have had some other witnesses describing

7 those or he might have described them himself, but it's not what I said

8 about this. And I believe there is an explanation in this testimony

9 somewhere about this if you read it carefully.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: It's unfortunate that that should be the case

11 because of course you've signed each page --

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- of your statement at the end, and you've

14 therefore adopted this as your own evidence.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I signed all of it. But again, Your Honour, I

16 would ask you to go through the statement and once again to see that there

17 is an explanation of -- in -- of investigator, that he made it clear that

18 not all of it that was -- especially in these columns was something that I

19 was giving comments. I did in some of it but not in all of them.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, the statement says: "The investigator has

21 numbered the photos captured from the video and made a list of the bodies

22 in this group. I have put in the names of the persons mentioned in the

23 tape according to the recording made by Sefedin Thaqi and placed the names

24 on the list as follows."

25 So you say it's the names that you're responsible for?

Page 5402

1 THE WITNESS: There should be another passage, as far as I

2 remember, there should be somewhere -- I cannot say which passage is that,

3 but there should be another passage which clarifies this.


5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry in taking you through this trouble, but --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll be given a copy of the statement in a moment

7 to see if you can identify that; I hope there is a copy handy for that

8 purpose. But the question is this: Noting that these descriptions were

9 entered by someone who viewed the tape, are these indicative of the bodies

10 wearing uniform?

11 THE WITNESS: Is this indicative --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. Do these descriptions indicate that these

13 were persons who were actually wearing uniform when they were killed?

14 THE WITNESS: That was one -- only one person which I was

15 referring to as a name -- as -- his name was Ajet Beqiri.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I know that, that's on page 24.


18 JUDGE BONOMY: But if you look at page 25 now, you'll be shown it,

19 and halfway down you'll see these two descriptions.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll see the two names unknown together halfway

22 down the page, if you have page 24 -- 25.


24 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, read the description next to the two names

25 unknown.

Page 5403

1 THE WITNESS: Okay. "Man, grey/black sweater, military green

2 jacket." And then who else is with military -- oh, okay, another one.

3 "Man, bluish jacket, military green overcoat, covered in a grey/red

4 woolen blanket."

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, does that help you to tell us whether any of

6 the bodies, apart from the two KLA soldiers --

7 THE WITNESS: I don't --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: -- were actually clad in what might be described as

9 a uniform?

10 THE WITNESS: I would be happy to help you with this, but I really

11 can't. I mean, there is no reason for me to be reluctant to give this

12 information because I don't find that much important, but I just don't

13 remember that there was another KLA member buried in Izbica event except

14 Ajet Beqiri, that might have been someone else. And all of these

15 descriptions -- I just wanted to make it clear, and it should be somewhere

16 said here, because I read it myself, were made by investigator. And of

17 course I was asked to sign it and I just signed it. I don't think this

18 would be so much contradictive or whatever so --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you very much.

20 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Kravetz.

22 MS. KRAVETZ: Yes, very briefly, Your Honours. I just have a

23 couple questions.

24 Re-examination by Ms. Kravetz:

25 Q. Mr. Loshi, during cross-examination you were asked about the

Page 5404

1 number of the victims buried at the grave-site that we saw in the video,

2 and you were read a paragraph on page 28 of your statement and -- which

3 indicates that there were 127 persons buried; and you say there that you

4 would estimate the number from the massacres to be from 110 and 120. The

5 remainder of the persons, were those persons who had -- based on

6 information you were able to gather, were those persons who had been

7 killed on that same day as those persons killed in the massacre?

8 A. I wasn't there for -- from -- I mean in the -- in Izbica, I wasn't

9 there from the 27th of March, so I don't even know what happened and

10 who -- and who was killed where -- who where was killed. But based on my

11 best knowledge, I will say here that these people were killed either by

12 28th or, like we say -- we have two soldiers killed by 27th, and even for

13 these two soldiers I know from other people what they have said to me. So

14 I'm -- I am not -- I am not aware exactly what they -- what they -- all of

15 them were killed except these 28 of -- I mean 28th March that were killed,

16 these two large -- large groups of people. But I believe all of them were

17 killed in -- by 27th and 28th because I know that by 26th of March there

18 was no killed anybody. I was there myself.

19 Q. And based on what you were told, other than these two persons you

20 referred to as KLA soldiers, were the remainder of the persons civilians?

21 A. Yes, except these two people that I was referring to, Ajet Beqiri

22 and Zaim -- what was his last name? Zaim Bajrami.

23 Q. Now moving on to a different subject. You were asked about your

24 involvement with the KLA, and you indicated that you treated KLA

25 soldiers. Did you have any other type of involvement with the KLA, either

Page 5405

1 in 1998 or 1999?

2 A. Not really.

3 Q. Did you ever participate in any type of combat operation --

4 A. Oh, no, no, never.

5 Q. And were you -- I'm sorry. Did you have any access to information

6 about combat operations that were being organised or any other type of

7 logistic operation that was being organised by the KLA, by other KLA

8 members?

9 A. From --

10 Q. In your capacity as a doctor.

11 A. I was informed for most of actions if they happened, if there was

12 any. But as I have said there, there was -- KLA was really weak comparing

13 to Serbian army forces and there were not much fighting between KLA and --

14 and Serbian forces at this period of time.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. KRAVETZ: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Dr. Loshi, that completes your evidence.

20 Thank you for coming again to the Tribunal to give evidence, and you're

21 now free to leave.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour, having me here to testify in

23 this case.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you for assisting us.

25 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

Page 5406

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what's to happen now?

3 MR. STAMP: I have the unenviable task to announce, Your Honour,

4 that we have run out of witnesses for this week. We had scheduled K -- a

5 witness without a pseudonym; I do not want to call his name. We have

6 received a report that a subpoena was not served; I think that was filed

7 today or yesterday. He was a witness that was scheduled for four hours in

8 chief and that would have taken up -- and that would have enabled us to

9 fill the week with witnesses. We have spoken with him and he did indicate

10 hesitancy in coming and made statements relating to security. So although

11 his name was mentioned previously, I do not want to mention it now in case

12 there are issues in respect to security. So that is the reason why we are

13 not in a position to -- to put forward a witness for the remainder of the

14 week.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the Chamber's of the view that every day has

16 to be used to best advantage in view of the time it will inevitably take

17 for this trial to be completed. You know that already, not only because

18 of what we've said but because of what we did in respect of failure to

19 have witnesses present to occupy the time. It will be obvious to you,

20 therefore, that we have in mind to allocate some of the lost time, at

21 least, to your overall allocation of time. And I'll hear you on any

22 comments you want to make about that before we take a decision.

23 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, I would just ask that you consider that

24 the -- where witnesses who are expected to fill a substantial amount of

25 time fail to turn up, for whatever reason - and we are not sure about the

Page 5407

1 reason, and we have done everything, including obtaining subpoenas to get

2 the witness here - it is, to some degree, beyond our control, but I know

3 it is indicated that we should have a witness in reserve. But if this

4 witness had attended then the shorter witnesses who have testified would

5 be witnesses in reserve. So there are occasions when things are really

6 outside of the hands -- outside of the control of the parties, inescapable

7 occurrences, which I'd ask you to bear in mind when you consider making an

8 order in respect to the time available to the Prosecution.

9 That is the only comment I have on this.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: We do not for one moment accept that these are

13 factors beyond the control of the Prosecution which have caused this

14 situation. It's clear that there was always a question mark over the

15 willingness of the witness referred to to be here. That's plainly a

16 situation where there should be ample other witnesses available to cover,

17 so this was a particularly bad example of a failure by the Prosecution to

18 take reasonable steps to ensure that time is used properly. Therefore, we

19 are all agreed that some part of the time lost must be allocated against

20 the Prosecution's overall allocation. We differ on the extent, and by a

21 majority we'll allocate one-half of tomorrow --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: -- one-half of tomorrow's lost time to the

24 Prosecution's allocation. I say "by a majority"; the dissenting member of

25 the Bench would have allocated a larger amount -- proportion of the time

Page 5408

1 than that. We altogether, however, consider the decision made to be an

2 extremely generous to the Prosecution, in view of the history of matters

3 so far and what's been said so far; and we hope that that will be a clear

4 warning that this situation should not be repeated.

5 We'll now adjourn and resume at 9.00 on Monday.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.42 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of

8 October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.