1 Tuesday, 14 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Before we go into closed session this morning,

6 Mr. Visnjic, just to confirm the matter that arose yesterday. The Chamber

7 will sit on the application by the United Kingdom for an extension of time

8 and take no action on it. It's for you then to trigger any further action

9 by drawing our attention to a failure to resolve this. We will also

10 expect you to resolve to our attention if you are successful in resolving

11 the matter, so we can clear it from our outstanding list.

12 MR. VISNJIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We will inform you.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We will now go into closed session so the witness

14 can enter the courtroom.

15 [Closed session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Tanic. Your cross-examination

22 will now continue. I anticipate a number of counsel will have questions

23 to ask of you. Please remember how much we already know. Please try not

24 to repeat yourself. You're entirely free, as you know, to justify your

25 conduct and actions in response to questions by specifying your reason for

1 doing things.

2 But please, in doing so, endeavour to concentrate your answer on

3 the point that arises rather than repeat what's been said before. Please

4 also bear in mind that the solemn declaration which you took at the outset

5 continues to apply to your evidence throughout that evidence.

6 Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Can I ask that the usher place before Mr. Tanic the bundle of

9 exhibits with ten tabs and the English and B/C/S version of his statement

10 P2480.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the full statement or only the first --

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It's the full statement in both languages with

13 numbered paragraphs.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 WITNESS: RATOMIR TANIC [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan: [Continued]

18 Q. Mr. Tanic, yesterday we were talking about what you describe as

19 the discreet negotiations with the Kosovar Albanians, and I believe you

20 told the Court that these negotiations took place between 1995 and the end

21 of 1997. Do you recall saying that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, in your statement, P2480, at paragraph 5, you say that in

24 addition to you and Dusan Mihajlovic, a man named Dojcilo Maslovaric, the

25 Yugoslav envoy to the Vatican, and Professor Ratko Markovic, the deputy

1 prime minister of Serbia, were also appointed to conduct discreet

2 negotiations with the Kosovar Albanians. Do you recall saying that?

3 A. Yes. Dojcilo Maslovaric and Ratko Markovic, they participated in

4 the negotiations.

5 Q. You also told the Court that these discreet negotiations took

6 place within the context of meetings organised by the Bertelsmann

7 Foundation.

8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And for the record, I refer to exhibits P704,

9 P705, P707, P708, P709, and P718. These are newspaper articles and

10 documents produced at the Bertelsmann meetings on Kosovo, including the

11 programme of the meetings held between 1995 and 1998, as well as the names

12 of speakers and participants.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Tanic, would it surprise you to learn that the names of

14 Dusan Mihajlovic, Dojcilo Maslarovic, and Mr. Markovic do not appear in

15 any of these exhibits?

16 A. I'm sorry, but what you said is untrue. I never said that they

17 participated in any other negotiations, except from those carried out

18 within the Bertelsmann Science Foundation. It was just one of the NGO

19 groups which were engaged in negotiations.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... carry on now.

21 It seems to be on the screen, but it's just probably me that's not getting

22 it for some reason.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Bertelsmann Foundation was just

24 one of the NGOs which acted on behalf of the German foreign ministry. I

25 also mentioned the negotiations led by Mr. Paglia as well as some direct

1 meetings, and what you saw is untrue. I never said that these particular

2 negotiations were within the framework of the Bertelsmann Foundation, and

3 I would ask the Bench to warn the Defence not to put words in my mouth,

4 especially not those that I didn't say. I explained how it worked.

5 The Bertelsmann Foundation was only one of the institutions

6 involved, and Mr. Dojcilo Maslarovic and Ratko Markovic appeared in that

7 phase of the negotiations which was led by Monsignor Paglia, where I

8 participated as well.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

10 Q. All right. In your statement at paragraph number 5, you state on

11 some occasions you, Mr. Maslarovic, and Mr. Markovic worked together in

12 discreet negotiations, the three of you. Now, give me a location, a date,

13 and the substance of the negotiations that the three of you participated

14 in together. Give me an example.

15 A. First, I mentioned on several occasions that Maslarovic, Markovic,

16 and I worked together; that's all I said. Now you seem to be adding up;

17 for example, when Mr. Markovic and I worked together, and Dojcilo

18 participated in it subsequently, it was at a meeting with the German and

19 the British ambassador. I would have to consult my notes again on that.

20 There was another international community representative. It was a

21 working lunch, and we discussed the Kosovo issue.

22 Negotiations on that occasion were directly involving the

23 international community. I had some contact with Maslarovic and -- within

24 in a different context as well, but I never said that all three of us sat

25 at the same table in the same phase of negotiations. Defence is trying to

1 say that I said something I didn't, as a matter of fact.

2 Q. Give me one example where you and these two men sat down with the

3 Albanians and had a meeting to discuss Kosovo. I want a date, a place,

4 and the substance of that meeting.

5 A. When did I ever tell you that all three of us were at the same

6 table with the Albanian side? With all due respect for the Bench and

7 Defence, I cannot answer untruthful questions, questions based on

8 imagination, on something invented. If you want me to name the people

9 there, there was the German and the British ambassador, on behalf of the

10 international community, and Branko Brankovic, on behalf of the Serbian

11 foreign ministry. I would have to consult my notes to tell you when and

12 that's when we discussed Kosovo, with the international community

13 involved.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, there are a number of misunderstandings

15 in your mind reflected in that answer. The question was not about

16 occasions when you sat down at the table with the Albanian side. The

17 question was about when the three of you sat down together and discussed

18 Kosovo. And you seem to have identified one occasion when that happened.

19 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, the most recent question was

20 an example where you and the two men sat down with the Albanians, page

21 5 --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, you're quite right, Mr. Hannis. Sorry,

23 I overlooked that.

24 Now, Mr. O'Sullivan, the statement doesn't actually say that, does

25 it?

1 If I read your statement to you, Mr. Tanic, you'll understand why

2 the questions are being asked the way they are nevertheless.

3 "On some occasions, Maslarovic, Markovic, and I worked together;

4 however, they also spoke with Kosovo Albanian representatives

5 independently on other occasions."

6 Now, it's easy to form the impression there that you were saying

7 that all three of you had discussions with Albanians. I think I

8 understand your position to be now that that did not happen, and the only

9 meeting at which you were present with these other two involved the German

10 and British ambassador. Is that correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was together with Markovic on

12 several occasions, but Defence asked me to specify a single example. As

13 for Dojcilo Maslarovic, there were two or three working meetings with him

14 concerning negotiations conducted by Mr. Paglia.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, the question is about when all three of

16 you were together. Is there more than one occasion when all three of you

17 were involved in negotiations together?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Not the three of us together,

19 and I never said that. I said we worked together --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and Mr. O'Sullivan is abusing the

22 use of the Serbian language.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Tanic, that is an unacceptable remark.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. We worked together on

25 the programme led by Vicenzo Paglia, on behalf of the Vatican. We never

1 sat at the same table together, but we worked on it. You can ask

2 Monsignor Paglia to confirm that.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Tanic, you testified in the Milosevic trial on the 14th, 15th,

6 16th, and 21st of May, 2002. Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Yesterday, we looked at paragraphs 4 and 5 of your statement,

9 right at the end of your testimony yesterday, where you described your

10 authorisation to conduct discreet negotiations. Let me remind you about

11 one sentence in paragraph 4.

12 "In summary, my political authorisation to conduct these

13 negotiations came from three sources: Milosevic, the SDB, and my party,

14 because it was officially part of the government."

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'd like to refer to Exhibit 1D30, Your Honour.

16 In hard copy that's tab number 3.

17 Q. Behind tab number 3, Mr. Tanic, we have first an English language

18 document and second the Serbian language document. This document was

19 produced by the information service of New Democracy in Belgrade on the

20 14th of May, 2002. I want to look at this with you. First, the title of

21 this document is -- and you'll see the document is stamped and signed in

22 the original by a representative of New Democracy. The title of the

23 document is: "Imagination Is Everything."

24 First sentence: "Regarding the testimony of Mr. Ratomir Tanic in

25 the trial of Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague, New Democracy would like to

1 remind the public of a few facts."

2 Then I go to the second paragraph, first sentence: "The second

3 fact relates to Ratomir Tanic, a founder of the UJDI, Association for

4 Yugoslav democratic initiative, a reformist and vice-president of the

5 Civic Alliance of Serbia, who only became a New Democracy sympathiser in

6 1995 and joined its sector for international relations."

7 Now, if we stop there and go back to Exhibit 1D31, the record

8 sheet we looked at yesterday, you can see that this statement by New

9 Democracy describes you as a sympathiser, the same way you were described

10 in the information sheet which you signed; correct?

11 A. What is correct? That this document describes me or that I was a

12 sympathiser?

13 Q. Well, both.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: This is a non-productive avenue, Mr. O'Sullivan.

15 We can read these documents. We can see the relationship between the two.

16 This is the sort of thing is not going to advance matters, bearing in mind

17 how long it took to deal with this yesterday.

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Very well. I'll move on.

19 Q. I'm still in the second paragraph of this exhibit, 1D30, and I'll

20 read from the last portion, the last sentence or phrases of that second

21 paragraph. It says here:

22 "There was no plans to resolve the Kosmat problem, nor was anyone

23 authorised to make such plans on behalf of New Democracy with anyone,

24 including the people mentioned by Mr. Ratomir Tanic. Ratko Markovic,

25 Dojcilo Maslarovic, Jovica Stanisic, Momcilo Perisic, Mira Markovic,

1 Slobodan Milosevic, or representatives on diplomatic missions in our

2 country. No one in New Democracy was informed of Mr. Tanic's relations

3 with domestic and foreign services, so his," and the word is illegible,

4 "activity has no connection whatsoever with his involvement in New

5 Democracy's international activities."

6 I move to the second page, the penultimate paragraph, first

7 sentence:

8 "It's up to the Tribunal to assess the authenticity of Mr. Tanic's

9 testimony, and New Democracy has nothing to do with this, as it does not

10 wish to turn the trial into a circus, where witnesses will be at the level

11 of newspaper articles and information published in the media."

12 And finally the last sentence:

13 "The stories told by Mr. Tanic have been told all over the media

14 and thousands of citizens of this country could repeat them as hearsay."

15 Now, Mr. Tanic, your party, New Democracy, denounces you as an

16 imposter, don't they?

17 A. I'm sorry, perhaps it would be best for you to call here the

18 representatives of New Democracy as your witnesses. I cannot offer any

19 comment on this -- well, I could, but it would be ridiculous. Did you

20 know how many people were killed in Serbia concerning the negotiations and

21 peaceful solutions for Kosovo? Of course they have to denounce me,

22 otherwise there goes their head. But please do call them here as

23 witnesses. I'd be happy to. Call Mr. Mihajlovic to testify. No problem.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, this is an interesting document,

25 because the part that you omitted to read - and I understand why you

1 omitted it; it's not a criticism - makes the point that the witness was a

2 participant in discussions between the Serbian and Albanian side. He

3 maintained his contacts with the organisation -- organisers of these

4 gatherings and continued attending them.

5 Endeavours to resolve the problems in Kosovo and Metohija as

6 peacefully and to reach a compromise between the Serbian and Albanian

7 sides with the support of the international community are public policies

8 of New Democracy and have been stated by all representatives of

9 New Democracy, including Mr. Tanic. There were no plans to resolve the

10 Kosmat problem, nor was anyone else authorised to make such plans on

11 behalf of New Democracy with anyone.

12 One has to ask the question: What is this all about? What is

13 this press release all immediately about after the Milosevic evidence?

14 Is it, as the witness said, New Democracy for political reasons trying to

15 distance itself, and yet at the same time reap the benefits of one of

16 their members being involved in peaceful negotiations? I don't know how

17 much one can make of this sort of press release, quite frankly, or press

18 reports, indeed. If we hear the witnesses, it might be a different

19 matter.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

21 Q. Throughout your testimony, sir, you've invoked the name of

22 Dusan Mihajlovic many times, in fact you just did a moment ago. Now,

23 Mr. Mihajlovic gave an interview on live television in Belgrade on the

24 evening of the 15th of May, 2002. And Exhibit 1D29 is the Milosevic

25 transcript of the 21st of May, 2002, it's tab 4 of the hard copy. Now,

1 the video-clip was played for you in court of this live broadcast that

2 took place the night before, and here's what Mr. Mihajlovic had to say on

3 television.

4 "Well, you see the Hague Tribunal is a very serious institution

5 that the world expects a lot of. It has invested a lot of time, money,

6 and hope in it. And you see what is happening to us now, to find ourself

7 in a rather ridiculous or sad situation that the Prosecution is loudly

8 announcing a key witness, somebody who cannot be that, who has simply

9 collected what he found in the newspapers and preparing his book on the

10 Crisis Staff in Kosovo has actually made it available to the Tribunal. So

11 this is mixing apples and pears, mixing political negotiations with the

12 Albanian side organised by various foundations all over the world and

13 other efforts that were made to avoid a conflict, to avoid the bombing,

14 and so on.

15 "But in any event, neither did Mr. Tanic take part in that, nor

16 was he an active executor of any plans that he refers to. So this is

17 rumours and hearsay that calls into question the Prosecution. This cannot

18 be established in any way, because he did not participate in any way in

19 the decision-making that he's testifying about, nor in the execution of

20 those decisions. He was just an observer, like most -- like almost all of

21 the citizens of Serbia. If that is an exaggeration, then anyone who took

22 part in public and political life can be compared with him and this can be

23 found in articles and programmes in the media."

24 Now, here Mr. Mihajlovic denounces you as an imposter, doesn't he?

25 A. With the Bench's permission, I'd like to comment on this

1 statement, since I find it most interesting, item by item. First of all,

2 in this statement Mr. Mihajlovic confirms that there were various talks,

3 negotiations, and efforts to resolve the Kosovo Crisis by peaceful means.

4 As for my participation in the effort, that is easy to prove, if one asks

5 the institutions involved. And could you please all direct your attention

6 to the following.

7 It is often heard that what I testify about is something found in

8 newspapers. It would have been true, had I testified back in 2004 or 2003

9 or 2005. Since in those years, I could have been able to read all that in

10 the papers. However, my statement goes as far back as 1999 and the

11 beginning of 2000. Any expert, independent expert, would tell you that at

12 least 40 to 50 percent of the things I testified about in 2000, I couldn't

13 have read anywhere, in no book or newspaper, because some things were

14 highly secretive. Only after 2002 these things began seeing the light of

15 day, and indeed in 2002 I could have read them. But I spoke to The Hague

16 Tribunal about that in 1999 and 2000.

17 First and foremost, this involves the peace plan to end the war.

18 It appeared for the first time in Lilic's book in 2002, and I spoke about

19 it with the OTP in 2000, when no one knew about it. Also, some elements

20 which were used or attempted to be used to resolve the Kosovo crisis and

21 that no one had any knowledge of. And another example is when Maslarovic,

22 Markovic, and myself worked together, because my memory is now being

23 refreshed and I can perhaps go back to the previous question as regards

24 our cooperation. Everything Mr. Mihajlovic says is right. I could have

25 read that in the papers, but in 2004, whereas I spoke about it in 1999

1 and 2000 --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: You said that. Try and answer -- just make the

3 point just once, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just go back to the question

5 pertaining to Maslarovic, Markovic, and myself, I didn't recall that at

6 the time?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the three of us worked

9 together, although we never sat at the same table, but nevertheless were

10 in the same room. When there was discussion about Monsignor Paglia's

11 involvement as one of the negotiators and as someone that could be

12 accepted by Milosevic. You can find this information in the book

13 published by Predrag Simic, who was President Kostunica's advisor. You

14 can clearly see there that Maslarovic and myself, and some other people

15 secured Monsignor Paglia's involvement. Mr. Markovic participated in it

16 as well. That was the first occasion we worked together, although we were

17 not sitting down at the same table, but we were walking around. I

18 apologise for this digression.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Where did that occur?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Italian embassy.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: When did that occur?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think in 1995. Again, I would

23 have to consult the notes and the book. It is in the book.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And you refer to a book by Simic, who was advisor

25 to which person?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Simic also participated in the

2 negotiations. At that time, he was director of the institute for

3 strategic research. At that time, that was in 1998 or 1999. However, at

4 the time, when he wrote the book, he was about to become

5 President Kostunica's advisor. He wrote a book about Kosovo where he

6 clearly states that I was involved in the negotiations. Simic was

7 involved as an expert, and he also mentioned Maslarovic, myself. And he

8 clearly states that Maslarovic and I helped the whole thing. And he also

9 mentions Milutinovic's involvement and so on and so forth.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

12 Q. I have another question about this, the broadcast of the

13 Mihajlovic interview. The television clip that you were shown in court

14 during the Milosevic trial, and which I just read to you, it was broadcast

15 on the evening of the 15th of May. And the next day in court, on the 16th

16 of May, 2002, Exhibit 1D28, page 5108, you were asked: "Do you know about

17 that statement that he made last night that we were able to hear live via

18 Television Belgrade?"

19 And your answer is: "Yes -- well, yes, I do. I know about it."

20 Now, were you able to watch the statement by Mr. Mihajlovic on

21 television? Did you see it on television on the evening of the 15th?

22 A. No. I didn't see it on television, but I spoke to a few members

23 of my family who are in Serbia, and I was being denounced there, and they

24 told me, Well, this is your boss talking about you this way. And since

25 you are trying to present newspaper articles, perhaps you can also state

1 here that Mr. Mihajlovic, some two or three months after my testimony in

2 the Vreme magazine in an interview, which was conducted with me and

3 Mihajlovic, he said that what I said was 90 percent true. So this is

4 quite a different estimate, if you put it against this statement. So if

5 you are going to put this interview to me, I [as interpreted] have another

6 one to counter it. He said it plainly.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan, you may not have any information on

8 this, but it's a quite extraordinary coincidence that this should be

9 broadcast immediately before cross-examination of the witness in the

10 Milosevic trial. What channel did you say it was broadcast on?

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: My information it was on RTS television.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a Belgrade -- that's Radio Television

13 Serbia. Thank you.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one correction for the

15 transcript. On page 14, line 20, I think the witness said, Since you are

16 showing this interview to me, we have another one to counter it, whereas

17 in the transcript it says, "I have another one." I believe the

18 distinction to be important. My learned friend Mr. Petrovic says that the

19 witness probably meant the OTP as well. Perhaps we could check that

20 against the audio recording.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no need. I just asked the

22 Prosecutor to put forth the interview, if they have it in their

23 possession, the interview from Vreme. And when I said that "we have the

24 interview," I meant I and the OTP. There is lots of material, lots of

25 interviews.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

3 Q. One last point on this. When Mr. Mihajlovic gave in interview in

4 May 2002, he was the Minister of the Interior, wasn't he?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at that point Mr. Kostunica was president and Mr. Djindjic was

7 prime minister, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like to move to a different topic now, and I refer to your

10 statement at paragraph 108. And here's what you say at paragraph 108, and

11 I'll read it to you and then I'll ask some questions is about it.

12 Paragraph 108 says: "During the NATO bombing, I had a heated conversation

13 with Milosevic at a small reception. I had just returned from abroad" --

14 A. Excuse me. Which line of the paragraph?

15 Q. Oh, excuse me. Yeah, I'm sorry, paragraph 108 --

16 A. Which item?

17 Q. [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see this in the B/C/S, as

20 you call it, meaning Serbo-Croatian.

21 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

22 Q. Well, we'll use the English then. I'm at paragraph -- in English

23 it's page 27, paragraph 108, and I'm reading the -- from the second --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it's the third sentence, Mr. O'Sullivan.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I'm sorry. Third sentence. Thank you.

1 Q. Your statement says this:

2 "During the NATO bombing I had a heated conversation with

3 Milosevic at a small reception. I had just returned from abroad, where

4 the SDB and Milosevic -- and Milosevic's approval." Sorry.

5 "I just returned from abroad where with SDB and Milosevic's

6 approval, I had been attempting to negotiate with foreign contacts an

7 honourable way out of the crisis. I had passed on a discreet offer from

8 Milosevic and had not received a response. Milosevic had lost control and

9 stated that I was stupid, that I did not understand their strategy. He

10 said,"We need to have enough civilian victims, because then when there are

11 a lot of civilian casualties there, NATO countries' public opinion will

12 tell their leaders to go to hell, and that is how we can defeat NATO."

13 Now, this is what you told the Prosecutor in your interview. And

14 when you met the Prosecutor this year on the 4th and 5th of November,

15 2000, you did not make any corrections or changes to your statement, did

16 you? Sorry, 2006 you met the Prosecutor, just a few days ago.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Well, let me remind you how you describe this event in the trial

19 of Slobodan Milosevic. It's 1D27, 15th of May, 2002, pages 5007. It

20 begins, and this is direct examination. Mr. Nice asks you this question:

21 "In light of your willingness to give evidence publicly, are you

22 willing now to tell us what happened at the April -- at the meeting in

23 April 1999 with the accused, just yes or no. No explanation is required."

24 "A. Yes. But with a correction as to the description. The

25 description does not correspond entirely. That's probably my fault in

1 this."

2 A. What do you intend with this? Are you about to ask me something

3 or are you explaining to me that I -- you can see that I went abroad for

4 negotiations in the archives of the State Security Service and as well as

5 the other things --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Just wait and a question will be -- no question has

7 been asked yet.

8 Mr. O'Sullivan.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I was just pausing to let the interpreters catch

10 up.

11 Q. The question from Mr. Nice continues on page 5008, line 4, where

12 he says:

13 "Mr. Tanic, it may be that this background will be helpful. Our

14 immediate interest is what the accused said to you at a face-to-face

15 meeting or a face-to-face encounter, however you describe it. If you can

16 move there very swiftly and then answer His Honour Judge Kwon's or my

17 inquiry with your evidence, please.

18 "A. Well, that's what it's about. As we did not have a

19 face-to-face meeting, there was a telephone conference -- actually, and

20 I'll take upon myself the responsibility. But I wasn't going to go into

21 that but some other matters, and perhaps I did not devote attention to

22 that. There was a personal telephone conversation, but not face-to-face,

23 not a face-to-face encounter.

24 "Q. What was said?

25 "A. What was said that -- well, quite simply, there would be no

1 cease-fire in the conflict for some time to come, that Serbia and

2 Yugoslavia needed some more civilian victims. This was said on insistence

3 to bring the war conflict to an end as soon as possible, but nothing -- I

4 don't wish to say anything else about that because there she other traces

5 of that accusation against Mr. Milosevic.

6 "Q. Who said that? Who was at the other end of the telephone?

7 "A. In order to prove that NATO was a criminal organisation, at

8 the end of the previous paragraph, communication between Mr. Milosevic and

9 Draskovic. I heard that on the speaker-phone. It was a reception, but it

10 was our reception. Now, may I explain the context of it, if the Tribunal

11 wishes to hear it, because the context is highly significant."

12 Now, Mr. Tanic, you went from saying that you had a heated

13 conversation with Milosevic at a small reception to saying that you

14 overheard a speaker-phone conversation between Draskovic and Milosevic.

15 Those two things don't add up, do they?

16 A. Well, may I comment this very precisely to be as of much use to

17 the Court as possible. First of all, let me remind you that Mr. Milosevic

18 is not here. This is not a trial against Milosevic, but I do understand

19 your intentions. As you know, that trial was very difficult. There was a

20 lot of fighting between the two of us, and I decided to testify it -- only

21 on those facts that may be corroborated by other independent sources and

22 it is stated in my statement as such. I chose another example that

23 happened where other people could testify to --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... Please answer

25 the question.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the question.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Tanic, how often have I asked you to

3 concentrate on the questions that are being asked and to direct your

4 answer to the question. The question is inviting you to explain the quite

5 marked difference between what you say in the statement at paragraph 108

6 and, if it's the same event, what you said in the Milosevic trial. Now,

7 can you help us with that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just answered that question,

9 and I said that I would testify in court only about these things that can

10 be corroborated. My direct conversations with Milosevic cannot be

11 corroborated by anybody.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Stop. Are you now refusing to answer the question?

13 It's not for you to decide whether you'll answer on matters that can be

14 corroborated; it's your job to answer every question that's put to you.

15 Now, I ask you, please answer the question.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But what was the question, whether I

17 had two meetings with him? One conversation with him, direct

18 conversation? I can say whatever I wish, because that man is no longer

19 alive. Excuse me, but this is --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: We may then decide that that's a third version,

21 which would rather undermine your evidence. Are you not interested in

22 trying to help us to reach a resolution of this and clarify what seems to

23 be a contradiction? If you're not, we'll either move on; or, if I'm asked

24 to, I will order you to answer the question. But Mr. O'Sullivan may be

25 quite content to move on.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I answered

2 this question. If there is anything else which is still unclear, I'm

3 happy to clarify them. I think that I've explained this question.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give us a moment.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Tanic, Mr. O'Sullivan, we consider that

7 Mr. Tanic has failed to answer that question. It's a matter for you now,

8 Mr. O'Sullivan, how you proceed.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. I'll move on.

10 Q. Sir, the portion I just read to you from the Milosevic transcript

11 in 1D27, that was a direct examination of you by the Prosecutor. Exhibit

12 1D29 on the 21st of May, 2002, is your cross-examination on this point,

13 the point being the difference between saying "I had a heated conversation

14 with Milosevic at a reception," in your statement, and your testimony that

15 you overheard the conversation between Milosevic and Draskovic on a

16 speaker-phone. And at page 5186 you were asked this question:

17 "All right. All right, Mr. Tanic. Do you know about

18 Vuk Draskovic's statement precisely with respect to what you have just

19 told us?

20 And it says the following, and it was by Blic, the Belgrade daily

21 newspaper:

22 "The man denied in the course of the meeting with Mihajlovic that

23 Milosevic was ever on a direct telephone line, and he assesses Tanic's

24 statement as a complete untruth."

25 "Now, is Vuk Draskovic speaking untruth as well, Mr. Tanic, is

1 that it?"

2 And your answer is:

3 "Well, it's quite obvious now that everybody is washing their

4 hands of it."

5 Now, isn't it true that the reason people wash their hands of you

6 is that you fabricate stories about yourself and others?

7 THE INTERPRETER: We apologise, but the English booth doesn't have

8 any sound.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Just stop a moment, Mr. Tanic. Apparently there is

10 no sound going through to the English booth. Could you start that answer

11 again please.

12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I'm afraid I'll need to ask you to stop.

14 Apparently there is a technical problem, and there is no sound relaying to

15 the English booth to translate.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 THE INTERPRETER: It should be okay now, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry about that, Mr. Tanic. The matter has

20 now been resolved. I have to ask you, I regret, to start that answer

21 again.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is very clear about Vuk

23 Draskovic having taken part in all that, and there are other witnesses to

24 that. And as far as them washing their hands, I said that they're washing

25 their hands of the other things, not of me. Of course, everyone bears a

1 certain portion of responsibility for the war not ending sooner. Some

2 people were more to blame or less.

3 Milosevic took most of the blame. Of course, nobody in Serbia is

4 going to support what I am testifying about here, because it's not just

5 about the war -- crimes against Kosovo Albanians, but about the betrayal

6 of Serbia. Of course, Milosevic regime perpetrated crimes not only

7 against Albanians, but also Serbians, and this is why I'm in the witness

8 protection programme and my testimony is quite clear. It can be

9 corroborated, and there are at least two or three witnesses as to witness

10 Milosevic's strategy to rack up the number of civilian victims to stave

11 off NATO attacks, but nobody else is going to incriminate him on that but

12 me.

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

14 Q. Yesterday, at page 6398 of the transcript, you were asked this

15 question:

16 "In regard to that, did you have - now I'm talking about

17 paragraphs 108 and 117 and 118 - during the course of the NATO bombing,

18 did you personally have any conversation with Mr. Milosevic about the

19 bombing and about civilian casualties, Serb civilian casualties?" .

20 And your answer was:

21 "It was a brief conversation. I cannot be specific as to its

22 detail, but I remember him saying we needed civilian casualties to justify

23 everything. He's dead now, and there was some other people who were

24 present. It is a state secret, and it's up to this Tribunal to assess the

25 truthfulness of everything I say."

1 That's a third version of that event, isn't it?

2 A. I see that the gist of it is the same. And you know in war times,

3 I cannot really describe all the circumstances in great detail, because in

4 that case no witness protection programme could save me. I cannot push

5 people to their own death by citing that they were there, and I cannot

6 really condemn my family to death by picking a fight with several

7 countries. You know, this is a chaotic situation, wartime --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, please get real. In -- you are being

9 asked for your recollection of events; you're not being asked for other

10 people's recollections. You're not being asked to name any other

11 individuals who were present on this occasion. At this stage, you are

12 simply being asked to explain accurately what happened.

13 And you are persisting in refusing to address the apparent

14 contradictions in the various explanations you've given. That leaves a

15 Court -- remember, we are not politicians, we are not newspapers, we are

16 not gossips in the street. We are a Court, and Courts operate on facts.

17 And if you won't assist us by giving us the facts, then we will not be

18 able to do justice.

19 Mr. O'Sullivan.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

21 Q. I'd like to change topics.

22 A. Your Honours, may -- it is now clear, my position. Can I try to

23 help the Court finally to resolve this contradiction? There was a

24 conversation over the telephone and tete-a-tete, both occurred. But in no

25 case can I corroborate that, verify that, or mention the circumstances in

1 which they happened. With regard to the telephone conversation, I can say

2 that it did take place. And all these variants are irrelevant because the

3 gist of the conversation is the same. I'm trying to be helpful here.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

6 Q. I'm moving on, Mr. Tanic. And I'm directing your attention to

7 paragraph 125 of your statement. And I'll read from the second-last

8 paragraph of -- second-last sentence of paragraph 125. You said this:

9 "When the cease-fire did not begin on Catholic Easter and the

10 three American soldiers were not released, I called Milutinovic on the

11 phone and asked why the delay. He said, 'We have not finished the job.

12 We will proclaim this unilateral cease-fire but we need another couple of

13 days.'"

14 Now, when you met the Prosecutor on the 4th and 5th of November,

15 2006, you changed your story, and you said this:

16 "When the cease-fire did not begin on Catholic Easter and the

17 three American soldiers were not released, I called Milutinovic on the

18 phone and told him that Mihajlovic wanted to talk to him about the delay.

19 He said, 'We have not finished the job. We will proclaim this unilateral

20 cease-fire, but we need another couple of days.' When I got Mihajlovic on

21 the phone, Milutinovic repeated to him that they needed time to finish the

22 job."

23 Now, when you testified in Milosevic, 1D27 is the exhibit, 15th of

24 May, 2002, you said that you overheard a conversation between Milutinovic

25 and Mihajlovic on a speaker-phone. Yesterday, you gave a fourth version,

1 page 6403 of our transcript. You said that Mihajlovic was in his office

2 when he called Milutinovic. You say Mihajlovic used a special phone to

3 call Milutinovic. Milutinovic was in a secret command post, and

4 Milutinovic said that the unfinished business down there -- that there was

5 unfinished business down there and that it, the cease-fire, would happen

6 on Orthodox Easter.

7 Well, sir, on four different occasions you've given four different

8 accounts of this story. None of it adds up, does it?

9 A. No. The gist is the same. But it's true that it's a bit

10 confused, because I do not have very precise recollection -- well, it took

11 us quite a while to find him. It was wartime, you know, and this is why

12 confusion created. I corrected that in my talks with the Prosecution, and

13 the gist was the same that Milutinovic that we had not finished the job.

14 The gist of the conversation is the same.

15 Of course, it is depicted in a confused manner as to the

16 circumstances. I do have this kind of problem because many events

17 happened and some of them bear emotionally on me. In my statement, the

18 gist is never changed; circumstances are described differently. This is

19 of course due to my memory, which works under the burden of hundreds of

20 events stored there.

21 Q. Now, in 1999, Mr. Mihajlovic was not in government, was he?

22 A. Mr. Mihajlovic was always one of the most influential politicians

23 in Serbia, whether in government or outside of government. And in his

24 cabinet --

25 Q. Sir. Sir, I'm not disputing whether he was a politician or not.

1 I said in 1999, Mr. Mihajlovic was not in government. That's correct,

2 isn't it?

3 A. That is correct. I didn't say he was a politician; I said that he

4 was a very influential politician. Now you are offering three or four

5 different versions. I have to respond to confused -- well, you're

6 presenting your case in a very calm situation, in a courtroom. You do not

7 have to worry about your life, and I'm ostensibly guilty of not

8 recollecting some technical, minor details. But my -- the gist and the

9 [indiscernible] is the same.

10 I said he was one of the most influential politicians in Serbia,

11 be it outside the government or in the government. But he was not in the

12 government, but he had maintained all of his contacts and he placed great

13 hope in Milutinovic and in all that.

14 Q. Do you know whatever happened with the unilateral cease-fire

15 declared by the Serb side?

16 A. The offer to shorten the war was not implemented in the form that

17 I related, and therefore bombing increased and continued. Kumanovo

18 capitulation occurred without a possibility to maintain the Pristina Corps

19 where it was.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, at tab 5 is Exhibit 1D37, and I

21 direct the Court's attention to it. You'll see that it's a document from

22 the internet with the web site appearing at the top of the document, and

23 it indicates that in 1999, western Easter was the 4th of April and

24 Orthodox Easter was the 11th of April. And I'd like to make an oral

25 application to have the Court take judicial notice of those dates under

1 Rule 94(A).

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I currently don't have any reason to

4 dispute that.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 That application is granted, Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

8 Q. I'd like then to move to Exhibit 1D36, which is at tab 6. That's

9 a joint statement of the Federal Government and the Government of the

10 Republic of Serbia, dated the 6th of April, 1999.

11 MR. O'SULLIVAN: And I direct everyone's attention to paragraph 1,

12 which states that:

13 "In the observance of the greatest Christian holiday, Easter, as

14 of 6th April 1999, at 8.00 p.m., all activities of the army and police in

15 Kosovo against the terrorist organisation KLA cease unilaterally."

16 And I won't read the rest.

17 Q. Do you see, Mr. Tanic, that on Tuesday, the 6th of April, there

18 was in fact a unilateral cease-fire, contrary to what you've just said;

19 correct?

20 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I object to the form of the

21 question because Catholic Easter is shown as being on the 4th. The 6th is

22 two days after the 4th.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I believe he said there was no cease-fire.

24 MR. HANNIS: On the 4th.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I apologise. Please.

1 This is the end. I said that there was no cease-fire in the way that it

2 was agreed upon. There was some cease-fire. It was half-baked and in the

3 best manner of Milosevic's regime, but I stated that the cease-fire did

4 not take place in the form as agreed.

5 I would like to -- the Bench to protect me from these implications

6 from the Defence, and this is illegal and immoral. I apologise to the

7 Bench and the Prosecution and everybody in the courtroom, but I cannot

8 really allow the Defence to imputations. The semantic difference is

9 between Serbian and English, a phrase I never uttered. They are accusing

10 me of giving contradictory statements --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, you are unduly defensive about something

12 that carries no imputation against you whatsoever, other than the

13 suggestion that you are fabricating your evidence. The point that is

14 being made to you is that the cease-fire did not take place on the

15 Orthodox Easter, which was the 11th of April. And as a piece of evidence

16 in support of that proposition, it's being put to you that there was a

17 statement, a press statement -- or a statement issued on the 6th of April.

18 Mr. Hannis.

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I see the transcript says the point that

20 is being made to you is that the cease-fire did not take place on Orthodox

21 Easter, which was the 11th. I thought the point was being made that the

22 cease-fire did not take place on the 4th of April, which was Catholic

23 Easter, as opposed to Orthodox Easter. Maybe I misunderstand the

24 question.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, you're quite right, Mr. Hannis. It's my

1 misunderstanding.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except for --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from that, this is just a

5 statement. It wasn't implemented immediately. They waited for one or two

6 days.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed that sounds like a sensible sort of

8 answer to make to the question you're being asked, if you would apply your

9 mind to the questions. But I apologise for misleading you to the extent I

10 have by referring to the Orthodox Easter instead of Catholic Easter.

11 Mr. O'Sullivan, Mr. Hannis makes the point that all this document

12 does is confirm that the cease-fire didn't take place at the Catholic

13 Easter.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Then I asked Mr. Tanic if he knew whether a

15 cease-fire ever occurred, and I just put this document to show him that

16 there was a joint statement of two levels of government. I don't dispute

17 the dates.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a question for you, Mr. Tanic. Was

19 there a cease-fire?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cease-fire did not occur on the

21 Catholic Easter, as was agreed, neither did it occur in its entirety, as

22 had been agreed.

23 I'd like to ask if I was not involved in all that, how could I

24 have known about this highly confidential piece of information on the end

25 of the war, on Catholic Easter, if I had not been involved in

1 negotiations? Nobody else knew that this was going on. What are we

2 talking about? And there's another thing that I would like to comment in

3 this statement, if I may.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, I'd be grateful if you would answer the

5 question, which is: Was there actually a cease-fire? Never mind the

6 date, just tell us if there was a cease-fire at any stage.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was, but not in the manner

8 that had been agreed. Withdrawal --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You've answered the question. There was.

10 Now, tell us what the difference was between what was anticipated

11 and what actually happened.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't out on the ground at

13 that time. As far as I received information, the political agreement was

14 problematic again, because one of the component parts of the peace offer

15 by NATO was a political agreement. And I believe that this was a bone of

16 contention, and the withdrawal -- and this is why NATO continued with this

17 intervention. But I must tell you that I wasn't there on the ground, and

18 I do not have first-rate information about events there. I believe that

19 there were some problems connected with political solution for Kosovo more

20 than affecting the military.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not the issue at the moment, I don't think,

22 Mr. Tanic. You've said that there was a cease-fire but that it wasn't

23 implemented in the way envisaged. What we would like to know is what

24 actually happened and what was different about that from what had been

25 anticipated.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It -- the cease-fire was partial.

2 The withdrawal started, but a partial one, not a complete withdrawal. The

3 political agreement was not concluded. I believe that Milosevic and his

4 people would sign anything but never implement anything, and had they

5 implemented all they signed, Milosevic would have received a Nobel Peace

6 Prize. But the problem is they never observed their own agreements.

7 The cease-fire was partial; it was not complete. And the

8 withdrawal was partial and not complete. But now I'm treading on the

9 ground where I do not have complete information and I could not comment on

10 the whole. Some fighting did continue. Of course the KLA used this

11 opportunity to abuse the situation. And since everything was being done

12 underhanded and many members of the military and police never knew about

13 this peace agreement, they were flabbergasted they were being withdrawn.

14 Milosevic manipulated both the military and the police as well.

15 So chaos reigned around this agreement and it was not implemented

16 in the way envisaged. Of course I do not know all the details.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

18 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, may I interrupt for a moment.

19 I just want to put my record -- on the record my objection to this

20 exhibit at this point in time without some further foundation. It's not

21 signed or sealed. It does have a fax header indicating 6th of April,

22 1999, from the YUFMFA -- perhaps that's the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

23 Office, but to a particular phone number. I have no more information

24 about it to determine whether or not this was official, whether it was

25 approved, whether it was a draft, or anything else. So I object to it for

1 the time being.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we're in the process of working with

3 the Prosecution on stipulations, and I'm confident that we can come to an

4 agreement on this one; if not, we'll deal with it in due course.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Of course, Mr. Hannis, when a document like this is

6 used by the Defence, our practice will be to admit it as an exhibit. But

7 that doesn't prove anything. It simply puts in context the evidence that

8 the witness gave, unless there is some recognition, for example, as has

9 happened with Prosecution exhibits which are witness statements, that it's

10 being accepted in its entirety as a document for consideration. So that's

11 what would happen to this one. And you having particularly made the

12 point, then the Defence are clearly on notice that they have to establish

13 a basis for regarding this as authentic.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I'd like to change topics.

17 Q. Mr. Tanic, could you confirm for us that Vuk Draskovic's political

18 party was called the Serbian Renewal Party.

19 A. Can I repeat my question again: How could I have known about this

20 proposal had I not been involved. I couldn't have read it in the papers.

21 Just to remind you --

22 Q. Sir, I've moved on. I'm changing topics.

23 A. Yes, certainly you did. I know you did. I can see that. You

24 changed topics.

25 Yes, the Serbian Renewal Movement is Vuk Draskovic's party.

1 Q. Thank you. I would like to direct your mind to the National

2 Assembly of Serbia on the 23rd of March, 1999, and the Assembly session

3 that was held on that date. Did -- did Vuk Draskovic address the Assembly

4 on the 23rd of March, 1999, the Serbian Assembly; do you recall?

5 A. I would have to be allowed to consult the notes. Do you have this

6 among the papers given?

7 Q. Well, maybe -- this may refresh your memory, and you can tell me

8 if it does. 1D27 is the Milosevic transcript of the 15th of May, 2002,

9 and in that portion of the transcript you're talking about individuals who

10 addressed the Assembly --

11 MR. HANNIS: Can we have a page reference, please.

12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: 4927.

13 Q. You've said that -- by this point in the transcript you said that

14 Mr. Milutinovic had addressed the Assembly. And Mr. Nice asks you: "Did

15 Vuk Draskovic provide an alternative?"

16 And you said: "To the best of my knowledge, yes, he did, on

17 behalf of a group of people who compiled an alternative solution to the

18 Serbian Assembly which should have been sufficient to avoid this conflict

19 with the NATO pact, which would have been suicidal."

20 Now, it's unclear to me whether you're saying that Mr. Draskovic

21 addressed the Assembly or whether he didn't. If you don't know, that's

22 fine; if you do know, please tell us.

23 A. No, no. Please, Mr. O'Sullivan. Let's drop semantics. Of course

24 he addressed the Assembly.

25 Q. Sir, I'm sorry --

1 A. It's a public document. As far as I can recall, he addressed the

2 Assembly.

3 Q. All right. Now, did you -- were you present at the Assembly that

4 day? Did you watch it on television? Do you have a recollection of

5 Mr. Draskovic addressing the Assembly? Just tell us.

6 A. Well, you know, I've read the minutes from that Assembly session

7 pertaining to Milutinovic. I didn't pay much attention to Draskovic's

8 words because I was interested in what Milutinovic would say, since

9 Holbrooke was outside the door; he was waiting for the Assembly's

10 decision. And you can see all that from the official minutes of the

11 session.

12 Q. All right. Let's go to the official minutes. It's 1D32, tab 9 in

13 hard copy. It's a rather lengthy document, but both the English and the

14 B/C/S are in hard copy. You can see from the cover page that it's the

15 shorthand minutes of the 1st Session of the first regular sitting of the

16 Republic of Serbia National Assembly, 23 March 1999.

17 If you turn to the next page, contents, it's the report of the

18 state delegation on talks in Rambouillet and Paris. And then you can see

19 that the session begins with the Speaker Dragan Tomic opening the session.

20 Now, if we go to page 60 of the English and page 79 of the B/C/S,

21 page 60 in English and page 79 in B/C/S -- have you got that page,

22 Mr. Tanic? Page 79 in B/C/S.

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. You have an index of the speakers. The name Vuk Draskovic doesn't

25 appear there, does it?

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Where do you see it?

3 A. I don't see it, but we were not discussing Draskovic, we were

4 discussing Milutinovic's speech at the Assembly.

5 So what is this issue of Draskovic? He's not in the index of

6 speakers. Maybe he didn't address the Assembly. I may have been mistaken

7 as well. When -- once I found out that the thing fell through, well, I

8 wanted to see what Milutinovic would say because everything depended on

9 his words, whether there would be peace or war. I wasn't interested in

10 Draskovic anymore.

11 When I had learned overnight that the thing fell through, I wanted

12 to follow the session and to pay attention to Milutinovic's words. I

13 wasn't interested in whether Draskovic addressed the Assembly or not. You

14 should try and read out Milutinovic's speech. This is what I addressed in

15 my testimony.

16 Q. A moment ago I asked you if you knew that Mr. Draskovic spoke in

17 the Assembly. You said, Yes, he did. And here we see that the minutes

18 indicate that Mr. Draskovic did not. Do you understand my point?

19 A. Sir, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to capitalise

20 on the gaps in my memory. I understand it perfectly well; that's why I'm

21 in good humour. Please, go ahead, continue with your technical tricks,

22 but please touch upon the essence for once. And I'm trying to ask you

23 kindly as a witness. You approached the essence once when discussing the

24 Easter agreement, and then you moved on after I asked you, How could I

25 have known about it?

1 Therefore, yes, I apologise. I was mistaken. It seems Vuk

2 Draskovic was not at the session, and I paid attention only to

3 Milutinovic's speech, since it was decisive. It was to decide whether

4 there would be war or peace. I apologise to the Bench, to you.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

7 Q. I have a different question. Sir, are you aware that the

8 Rambouillet agreement never contemplated troops in Kosovo under the UN

9 flag or with a mandate from the UN Security Council? Are you aware of

10 that?

11 A. Thank God, finally I get a specific question as regards the

12 essence.

13 That is not true. The draft agreement did not foresee the troops

14 to be under the UN flag. But later on, during the negotiations - as can

15 be confirmed by Milutinovic and other witnesses - there was a possibility

16 left to Serbia to accept NATO troops' presence under the UN flag;

17 therefore, that the agreement be changed.

18 Finally you get to the point, and I'd suggest that you exercise

19 caution because there are many witnesses as to the contents.

20 I categorically state that the Serbian delegation, as early as

21 Rambouillet and afterwards, was offered the possibility to amend or change

22 the unfavourable NATO mandate in our terms and to put it under the UN flag

23 and the auspices of the Security Council. There was that possibility as

24 well as the possibility of a favourable peaceful political solution, as

25 was affirmed by Milutinovic partially in his address.

1 The international community wanted to see peace troops there in

2 any which way possible, so they were not focusing on one thing or the

3 other [as interpreted]. But I do agree with you: The initial draft did

4 not foresee any NATO troops, but that was left open for the negotiations

5 and the dialogue.

6 It would have -- well, when Markovic went to Rambouillet, they

7 laughed at it, but subsequently when Milutinovic took part, things got

8 better. But of course he had to stick by our -- with Milosevic's ideas

9 and wish to create war.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have a problem -- there is a problem

11 with the transcript. Maybe the -- maybe the witness should be really

12 guided to speak slower because I assume that the interpreters cannot

13 follow the pace at what he is speaking. Because the -- it's 36, 24: "The

14 international community wanted to see peace troops there in any which way

15 possible, so they were not focusing on one thing or the other."

16 The witness said quite a different thing about the NATO troops and

17 all.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell me what he said?

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, he said the international community wanted to

20 see peace troops there, insisted on NATO the first time, but then -- I

21 don't remember it quite -- quite the words because I was concentrating on

22 some other things.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

24 Mr. Tanic, tell us again -- just hold on. Tell us again what you

25 say the international community wanted to see in the way of peace troops.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The international community wanted

2 to see peace troops in Kosovo, which would guarantee the implementation of

3 the political agreement as well as to guarantee that there would be no

4 further conflict. There was a possibility left to negotiate as to the

5 flag, whether it -- that would be the UN's flag and the Security Council's

6 auspices.

7 There was a possibility left for the Serbian side, provided they

8 are cooperative, that even the Pristina Corps would remain down there to

9 cooperate, to some extent, with the UN troops. I categorically state that

10 this is true, and one can have at least a dozen of witnesses which would

11 corroborate that, and Milutinovic himself has to confirm as well.

12 As for the possible changes to our benefit, to have the UN flag

13 and the Pristina Corps there, that was all under the caveat that peace

14 troops are accepted. We could even have gained a pretty good political

15 agreement which would be more in favour of Serbs than of Albanians.

16 Milutinovic can confirm this as well. But Milosevic said, I don't want

17 any troops. That was his excuse.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Tanic.

19 Mr. O'Sullivan.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

21 Q. Well, I'll try this question. Sir, I put it to you that the

22 Rambouillet agreement and the Rambouillet and Paris process only

23 contemplated NATO forces in the FRY, not pursuant to a UN Security Council

24 Resolution; it was NATO and NATO only, Russia, a permanent member of the

25 Security Council, did not support implementation of Rambouillet, and

1 that's why it was NATO and only NATO. Correct?

2 A. Not correct. And this attorney-at-law is not qualified and does

3 not have the expertise to interpret complicated political arrangements.

4 It's simply incorrect. I wasn't going into armed forces

5 technicalities. Could the counsel please be asked not to meddle with high

6 politics and agreements. It is incorrect. The answer is no. There was a

7 possibility. The initial draft from Rambouillet foresaw NATO presence,

8 but during negotiations you can try and change that.

9 As for Milutinovic, he could have said, Yes, we will accept such

10 troops under the UN flag and the Security Council's auspices. Milutinovic

11 may have opted for that, but Milosevic said, No troops, because he saw the

12 possibility to create war in that, and he needed it. And therefore, we

13 were not able to accept that. Had we accepted the UN flag, we could have

14 participated as well, being a member.

15 As regards the rest, you can call at least five or ten credible

16 witnesses here of much higher rank than of Milutinovic or Tadic, and then

17 you'll see. They simply lied about Rambouillet. They lied before that,

18 but they lied after it as well, Milosevic and his associates.

19 Milosevic met with Madeleine Albright on several occasions, but no

20 option was found for the troops to move about the territory. The offer

21 made was to stay in their bases, but what would be their use then?

22 Mr. Milutinovic was in a difficult situation. I understand him.

23 He was an experienced diplomat, and I don't think this was his view, but

24 he chose to obey by Milosevic's ideas and orders. Milosevic welcomed any

25 excuse to start a war in Kosovo, and he used his associates to lie or to

1 misinterpret Rambouillet --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, we're now wandering through areas which

3 are not the subject of this question.

4 Mr. O'Sullivan, do you have a while to go yet?

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: A little while, yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you saw how Mr. Hannis approached this, and I

7 appreciate the importance to you, but I hope the overall timing is being

8 borne in mind in dealing with the witness.

9 We now have to break, Mr. Tanic. If -- we'll go into closed

10 session for that.

11 [Closed session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Tanic, do you know of a man named Spasoje Krunic, who was a

25 member of the Serbian Renewal Party? Have you ever heard of him?

1 A. No -- well, I think I've heard of his name, but -- well, yes.

2 Yes.

3 Q. Yes. You've heard of him?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. Did you know that he was a member of a five-person commission

6 which was set up to draft conclusions of the Assembly of the Republic of

7 Serbia on the 23rd of March, 1999?

8 A. No. Such details were of no interest to me.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, for the record it's Exhibit 1D32,

10 which are the minutes of the Assembly, page 12. That's my reference to --

11 for my last question.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a reference to a document prior to the

13 actual Assembly discussion?

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No. Page -- I'm looking at page 12 of the actual

15 minutes, during which the Speaker, Mr. Tomic, after the presentation by

16 Mr. Markovic, the report of Mr. Markovic, relating to Rambouillet in

17 Paris, he establishes a five-person commission, including Mr. Krunic, to

18 draft the ultimate conclusions of the Serbian Assembly of that day, in

19 relation to the report tabled by Professor Markovic.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any reference in these minutes to the

21 document that it was said was compiled with the assistance of Draskovic

22 and Mihajlovic?

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: The conclusions are at the very end of this

24 document. They begin -- the conclusions themselves begin at page 56 of

25 the English version. So my reference to the five-person commission are

1 the people responsible for actually drafts or presenting these conclusions

2 which begin at page 56.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. But the question I have is a rather different

4 one about the witness's evidence that there was a proposal that was being

5 submitted through the hand of Draskovic. Now, did that -- is there any

6 reference to that proposal at all in the discussion?

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I don't believe so, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, okay. I can read it obviously for myself,

9 but I was just curious to speed up the process.

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, in that same vein, what I propose to do is

11 offer this complete set of minutes. It's at tab 10, it's 1D32, which

12 include the speeches by the 28 people who spoke that day in the Assembly,

13 including Mr. Milutinovic who spoke 12th. They also include the

14 conclusions adopted by the Serbian Assembly on that day. In due course, I

15 wish to deal with both the conclusions in comparison to P710, which are

16 Draskovic's drafts; and also in due course I will deal what this witness

17 has to say about Milutinovic's speech, based on the words he actually

18 used. So if we can proceed in that way, I think it's the most economical

19 way. I will just tender 1D32 in its entirety.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know really how you can do that at this

21 stage. You're suggesting that we should take account of this in due

22 course as part of the Prosecution case.

23 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No. "In due course," I mean when we come to

24 final submissions. We have what the witness has said about Milutinovic's

25 speech. I'm tendering the full Milutinovic speech in the context of all

1 the interventions I've made.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I suspect the only way this can be done, in the

3 context of the Prosecution case, is either by stipulation or through a

4 witness that can actually say, "Yeah, these are the minutes of the

5 meeting." And I suspect that this witness isn't in a position to do that.

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, Mr. Hannis can say whether he wants to

7 stipulate it now or whether he wants to --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm certainly not meaning to be awkward about this

9 because I encourage this kind of approach, but we have to bear in mind

10 what the Rules allow.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's likely the kind of thing I'm

12 willing to agree to. I just have to do some independent verification.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: So you note the position and we'll see what

14 develops.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN: All right. I'll move on.

16 Q. Sir, last week -- I'm changing topics now, Mr. Tanic. Last week

17 you stated that someone from the British secret service was present during

18 a part of your interviews with the OTP, and you explained that he was

19 there for the sake of confirming the identity of the people at The Hague

20 Tribunal and your identity, because you had not previously met. Do you

21 recall saying that? Have I fairly summarised what you said?

22 A. No, as usual. I said that person was present to verify my

23 identity and the identities of The Hague Tribunal representatives, since

24 we didn't see each other before and we never met. He was there to say,

25 "Yes, this is Ratomir Tanic." And he wasn't there throughout, but just

1 at the beginning when the identities had been confirmed. Then the person

2 withdrew and no longer participated in our conversation. There's

3 something I wanted to correct in the transcript. The tangent I mentioned

4 of Milutinovic offering bases for troops without their being able to move,

5 but perhaps we can also check that against the audio-recording. I

6 apologise.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, it's becoming quite tedious listening to

8 you making allegations against counsel which don't seem to have any

9 foundation. You've just confirmed that Mr. O'Sullivan's statement of the

10 position was entirely accurate, 100 percent accurate. But you prefaced

11 that by saying when he asked you had he fairly summarised what he said,

12 "No, as usual." Now, I caution you to be very careful in the way in

13 which you are responding to perfectly reasonable questions put by counsel.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

15 Q. Sir, when you testified in the Slobodan Milosevic case - and this

16 is Exhibit 1D27, 15th of May, 2002, pages 5029, 5030 - you gave a few more

17 details in relation to the presence of the British secret service. And

18 again I'll summarise what you said. You said that there were there to

19 provide security to you, because they had established that you were the

20 victim of torture, perhaps even attempted murder, together with your wife.

21 Do you recall saying that, and is that a fair summary of what you said?

22 A. Yes, and that was an additional reason. There were several, and

23 this was something that was an addition to it.

24 Q. And I believe you said a moment ago, and it was put to you by

25 Mr. Hannis, that the British secret service agent was present during the

1 first and perhaps the second session of your interview with the OTP. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes. I can describe this person. He was there but in a different

4 room.

5 Q. Well, Mr. Tanic, there's a problem with your --

6 A. We have problems with interpretation again. [Microphone not

7 activated]

8 I didn't say I can describe this person. I said that I can

9 describe the circumstances.

10 Q. That's quite all right. I have a basis for my next question,

11 because you see there's a problem with your story. The problem is that

12 the first couple of days of your interview with the OTP were on the 21st

13 of June and the 22nd of July, 1999. And we see that from the cover page

14 of your statement, where the first two days of the interview occur on

15 those two dates I told you. And the problem is this: You claim you were

16 kidnapped in October 1999, and it would have been impossible for the

17 British secret service to provide security because of kidnapping and

18 torture; correct?

19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think this is creating confusion

20 because if you look at the transcript on page 5029 at the bottom the

21 witness says:

22 "I'm not testifying here on general political matters but very

23 specific secrets which your regime tired to hush up and they are providing

24 protection for me, I assume. Because with all their check-outs that they

25 have done, they have established that I was at least the victim of

1 torture, perhaps even attempted murder."

2 He's referring to at the time he's testifying about the protection

3 that's being offered to him. He wasn't saying that he was being protected

4 in June and July 1999 because he'd been kidnapped; he was refer to at the

5 time he was testifying.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Before that.

8 Q. In the Milosevic -- sir, you accept that you've told this Court in

9 the Milosevic trial that you were kidnapped from the street in October

10 1999. That's the story you've told the Milosevic Trial Chamber, isn't it?

11 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct. And I agreed that I wasn't in June

12 and July victim of kidnapping, but a person from the British security

13 service was there for several reasons; first to verify my identity and

14 then at meetings regarding protection. And then my meetings with the

15 Prosecution in June/July were of courteous nature. We did discuss things,

16 but my real official statement was given to the OTP in 2000.

17 And in June and July 1999 Brussels, we discussed the same things,

18 these things, in the same manner, but generally in terms of exchange of

19 opinions and clarifying certain problems. But in my first official

20 statement to The Hague investigators, dates at the beginning of 2000 after

21 my wife and I had been kidnapped and tortured.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I think the -- there's a matter of

23 dispute again, that's for argumentation later. My reference to this is

24 his testimony -- this witness's testimony in our case; 1D27, 15th of May,

25 2002, in the Milosevic case; and I'll leave it at that.

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

3 Q. When you testified in Milosevic, again on the 15th of May, 2002,

4 1D27, beginning at pages 4979, you say you were kidnapped off the street,

5 injected, beat, suffocated. And you say your wife was not drugged, but

6 she was beaten. Do you recall saying that?

7 A. Yes. The only thing that she received tranquillizer injection

8 when we were kidnapped. We received some jabs during that torture. She

9 did not receive jabs during torture; I did. These were vitamin jabs to

10 perk me up during torture. She did not receive any jabs during torture,

11 but she did receive a tranquillizer injection during the actual

12 kidnapping. The rest is accurate, yes.

13 Q. But did you see her receiving any kind of tranquillizers or

14 injections during the time that you were both held, your wife? Did you

15 see this being done to her?

16 A. Well, we were kept in separate rooms. She later told me that she

17 had not received any injections during torture and the beatings. And I

18 know that I received them, and I knew that they were very strong vitamin

19 jabs to perk me up. And I knew them by their effect because I was very

20 badly beaten, but we were kept in separate rooms, you know, in a private

21 prison, not in a regular prison. And this is confirmed in a book by a

22 high official of State Security Service. He said that the JSO units had

23 kidnapped us, and this is beyond contention.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And not State Security Service.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. State Security Service.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreter.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

3 Q. So that I've understood, you and your wife were taken to what you

4 call a private prison in the same location, but kept in separate rooms.

5 Is that a fair description?

6 A. Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

7 Q. Well, that's interesting because at page 4981 of the Milosevic

8 transcript you say:

9 "We were both kidnapped, drugged, and taken to two different

10 private prisons, where we spent two days each, my wife and myself, that

11 is."

12 Another fabrication, right, Mr. Tanic?

13 A. Well, God. You're an impossible person, man. It says we were

14 both kidnapped. Of course, I first and then one and a half hours later

15 she. And we were taken to both separate prisons -- well, you are hanging

16 on to every interpunction. I probably was in the same prison with

17 different rooms. How could I have known because I was wearing a

18 Balaclava? I was beaten up; I was drugged. How could I know where my

19 wife was at the time? Please, man, trying to imputate that I fabricated

20 facts. You have confirmation from the second in command of the State

21 Security Service that this had happened.

22 Of course, he described different circumstances, but he did say

23 these were the JSO people, the same people who tried to -- Vuk Draskovic,

24 who had killed Ivan Stambolic. Man, please do not play around with

25 people's fates and destinies.

1 Q. Another fabrication, right, Mr. Tanic?

2 A. What kind of a question is that, Mr. O'Sullivan? I would like to

3 see you in that position, and I would have liked to have seen your

4 reaction and would have liked to have seen you then being told that you

5 had fabricated that. And anyway, one of the highest officials confirmed

6 this; and of course this is true as the rest of my testimony. And of

7 course I don't know where my wife was. Maybe she was in the room next

8 door, maybe in a different prison. How could I have known when I was

9 being choked, beaten up, forced to admit about a coup d'etat by Perisic,

10 Mihajlovic, et cetera. They are asking me about British intelligence.

11 Have you ever had been beaten this much that you can still feel the

12 consequences?

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You've answered the question.

14 Mr. O'Sullivan.

15 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

16 Q. My next question is what you say at page 4983 of the Milosevic

17 transcript. You say that the people that kidnapped you and took you away

18 and tortured you were actually people who wanted you to link them up with

19 the British intelligence service so that they could topple Mr. Milosevic.

20 Is that right?

21 A. Oh, yes, after the torture they played this game. If they

22 couldn't get what they wanted by beating me, then they tried to be cagey.

23 And they said that they wanted to link up with the British intelligence

24 service, to carry out a coup d'etat against Milosevic, which was a very

25 cagey story. Because there were in some quarters in Belgrade the school

1 of thought that a coup d'etat had to be carried out against Milosevic to

2 save the country. There was thoughts to that effect but no actions, and

3 this was a cagey trick on their behalf. Later on I saw those people did

4 take part in another story, but -- a deal with the Djindjic government,

5 but this is not the subject matter of this trial.

6 Of course after beating me and not obtaining any evidence from me

7 into a video camera against Perisic, Mihajlovic, and other people who were

8 involved in the political life of Serbia, then they changed tack and tried

9 to be cagey about it. We would like to contact the British, and you may

10 help us, and I believe that this was a test to gauge what kind of pressure

11 I could take. And this is a mechanism used by intelligence services, but

12 this is obviously nothing that you'd know about, Mr. O'Sullivan.

13 So first, they beat me up and then they started being cagey.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...

15 Mr. O'Sullivan.

16 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

17 Q. I refer you and the Court to Mr. Tanic's statement, paragraph 98,

18 and I won't read it to you, sir. You can look at it if you like. But

19 there you gave an account of the kidnapping, and there's no mention of

20 your wife at all, is there, in this account? It's paragraph 98.

21 A. Well, Mr. O'Sullivan, you should be ashamed. I don't want to

22 produce a mellow drama out of my issues. I do not want to play the

23 emotional notes. I did not mention my wife. And I am very laconic about

24 my abduction. My wife turned grey overnight after the experience.

25 A high official, Zoran Mijatovic, high official of secret service,

1 and at the time he preparing [as interpreted] the materials for his book.

2 He was deputy head of state security under new government, and he

3 confirmed that my wife and I were kidnapped, that that was done by the

4 units for special operations, JSO, that they started to put the jigsaw

5 pieces together, that the same members of JSO were those who had

6 assassinated Curuvija and Stambolic, had attempted to kill Vuk Draskovic,

7 and this was one day, the Draskovic assassination attempt, one or two days

8 after my kidnapping, and this has been a contributing fact to our getting

9 out of prison. Of course --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, please concentrate. You've answered the

11 question right at the beginning of that answer.

12 Mr. O'Sullivan.

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

14 Q. A moment ago I read a portion of your testimony from the Milosevic

15 case where you say the people who kidnapped you were those who wanted to

16 topple Milosevic. It's also true that during the Milosevic testimony you

17 blame Mr. Milosevic for your kidnapping and torture. Correct?

18 A. That is correct. The only thing is that they wanted to topple

19 Milosevic was a trick of theirs. So that if they couldn't drag

20 information from me by beating, they tried to be cagey. They tried this

21 ploy. They did want to topple him at the time, be sure, because they

22 would have done so if they had wanted. So this was a ploy. And of course

23 I accused Milosevic because that unit operated under Milosevic's orders

24 exclusively, and there are -- there is evidence to that from different

25 sources. And Rade Markovic, head of the security service at the time when

1 I was kidnapped, also confirmed that. And I was kidnapped together with

2 my wife, I have to stress that once again.

3 Q. You've mentioned a couple of times a book written by

4 Mr. Mijatovic. That book was written in 2004, wasn't it? Does that sound

5 right?

6 A. So it is stated on the cover page. But it was being prepared when

7 he was for the second time in row deputy head of state security.

8 Q. Sir --

9 A. Leave it to that because I just say that confirmation is contained

10 in that book.

11 Q. You can confirm that the date of publication of he book was 2004;

12 correct? That's a yes or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that's two years after you testified publicly in the Milosevic

15 case; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let's go back to the British secret service. You received

18 financial assistance from the British secret service, didn't you?

19 A. Yes. For the first time seven years after we had got to know each

20 other, six or seven years after first contacts, I received financial

21 support from the British intelligence service. I can describe that

22 because I have been cleared to mention that fact.

23 Q. How much did the British give you, how much money?

24 A. No, it weren't the British but representatives of British

25 intelligence service, SAS, not British. We're not talking about Serbs or

1 British. So the total amount was approximately -- I believe that I said

2 that in my testimony in the Milosevic case. You can refer to that.

3 I believe that it was 10.000 German marks, today's counter value

4 of 5.000 euro, for the expenses connected with the preparation of

5 different materials, the book, et cetera, and I could not have funded that

6 out of my own pocket.

7 That was in 1999. That was the first time that I received money

8 from the British intelligence service, but we had contacts from 1992. We

9 did not act against the interests of Serbia; we acted against Milosevic's

10 regime.

11 Q. The 5.000 euros you mentioned, how was that paid to you?

12 A. Well, directly. Around 5.000 euro. You've got it in the

13 transcript, and Mr. Nice asked me about that --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just answer the question. How was it paid to you?

15 Cash? Cheque? What?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cash, in cash.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. It's easy, you know, when you

18 concentrate on the question.

19 Mr. O'Sullivan.

20 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

21 Q. So there's no receipt for this; is that what you're saying?

22 A. Yes, of course there is no such thing.

23 Q. So you were handed 5.000 euros; is that what you are saying?

24 A. I believe that the amount --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN:

2 Q. Sorry. You were handed 10.000 Deutschemarks, excuse me.

3 A. Yes, this is correct.

4 Q. Was this -- all this money was in a bag or an envelope? But it

5 was given to you personally in one instalment. Is that right?

6 A. No, on two occasions. And this isn't such a large quantity that a

7 bag would be needed. And it was handed over to me on two occasions.

8 Q. Were you given any money on any other occasion by the British?

9 A. Well, after I fled to Hungary, six months after that, a smaller

10 amount. Of course I could not work in Hungary, could not find job at

11 first, and I couldn't find a job at first in the Netherlands. So I

12 received a smaller amount to buy food, you know.

13 Q. And how much was that?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Does 4.000 to 6.000 Deutschemarks sound right?

16 A. You may consult the notes and transcripts from the Milosevic

17 trial. It is possible.

18 Q. And after you left Yugoslavia in the fall of 1999, you were

19 received by the Hungarian government and western intelligence agencies.

20 Is that right?

21 A. Yes. After they'd verified that I had really been kidnapped with

22 my wife and that things had occurred in the specified way, their

23 assessment was that it went for an attempted murder. And within that

24 context, the Hungarian government and western intelligence services

25 accepted me. After they'd verified the objective level of the threat to

1 my life and the life of my wife.

2 Q. I'm moving to my last area of questions, sir, and I'm changing

3 topics.

4 Exhibit 1D28 is the Milosevic transcript of the 16th of May, and

5 I'm on page 5106. I'm going to read to you an answer you gave to a

6 question posed by Judge Kwon. And you said this: "I will clarify that

7 very gladly. The accused, Mr. Milosevic, is denying everything, starting

8 from my very existence all the way up to my role. My position is that

9 during my testimony before this Court, I'm going to say only things that

10 can be corroborated from two or three independent sources in addition."

11 I'd like to read another short passage. 1D27, 15th of May, 2002,

12 page 5025. I'm referring to lines 12 to 18. And you say this, I'll just

13 read a portion of it: "I can always prove all my contacts from at least

14 two or three independent sources."

15 With the Court's indulgence, I'll read one short passage in

16 addition and then I'll ask my question.

17 The final portion I'd like to read to you, sir, is 1D28, Milosevic

18 transcript from 16th of May, 2002, page 5092. You were asked this

19 question.

20 "Q. You claim in your written statement that you met me in the

21 Deputies' Club secretly.

22 "A. No, I didn't say that. I didn't say 'secretly.' I think

23 that you were in the Deputies' Club on one occasion, but I threw out

24 everything that I was not able to corroborate with independent sources, so

25 that needn't be taken into account."

1 Now, my question is: We see in this last portion of transcript

2 that you withdrew a part of your statement that could not be corroborated

3 by two or three independent sources; correct?

4 A. That is correct. I know that this Court is not satisfied with

5 this position, but I dealt with politics and intelligence, and we always

6 say things that can be corroborated by either two or three independent

7 sources, both in politics and in intelligence work. This is my habit, my

8 second nature.

9 I know that this Court and this Chamber is not satisfied with the

10 position the same way that the previous Chamber was not. I did withdraw

11 all parts of my statements against Milosevic that could not be

12 corroborated by two or three independent sources. He turned his trial

13 into a circus act, and I didn't want to aggravate the position, neither of

14 the Court nor of the Prosecution.

15 Q. Now, isn't it correct, sir, that this is exactly what the New

16 Democracy press statement, Dusan Mihajlovic, and Vuk Draskovic say about

17 your testimony, that it's nothing more than rumours, hearsay, and

18 untruths. Isn't that the case?

19 A. No, it's not, because this is not verification from two or three

20 sources. And when I say "verification," I don't mean reading newspaper

21 articles.

22 If they want -- and if you want -- if you want to verify that, you

23 may call them to testify. But verification is not reading newspapers,

24 neither in intelligence work or in judicial proceedings, neither in normal

25 life.

1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I have no further questions. I do,

2 however, wish to tender the Milosevic transcript in its entirety, that's

3 1D26, 1D27, 1D28, and 1D29. I'm not tendering this testimony for the

4 truth of its contents, but rather, to allow the Chamber to see the full

5 context of this witness's testimony in the Milosevic case where he was

6 cross-examined by the accused, Milosevic, who challenged him, his

7 credibility in relation to all the meetings and contacts that he had with

8 Mr. Milosevic. That transcript also contains the challenges made to him

9 by other institutions and other people in Serbia. And I submit that it's

10 appropriate for you to be able to evaluate this witness's testimony in the

11 light of our cross-examination here and the full record of the Milosevic

12 case, and it allows us also to tailor and streamline and reduce our

13 cross-examination of this witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

15 Mr. Hannis, your comment on the use to which the transcript could

16 be put at this stage insofar as it's not been specifically crossed on.

17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would -- I would urge you to admit the

18 whole thing for all purposes that you deem fit. I was bothered by some of

19 the brief references that were read because I think when they're just

20 taken out of context like that, you may not have the full and complete

21 understanding of them. And so I would urge -- I don't oppose its

22 admission, and I would ask you to give whatever weight you deem fit for

23 all purposes.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't exist, Mr. O'Sullivan, as an exhibit

25 with a number, I take it. I certainly wouldn't be insisting on it being

1 produced in that form.

2 MR. O'SULLIVAN: It is uploaded into our system.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: In its entirety?

4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: All four days in their entirety.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: And what number does it have -- is it all 1D27?

6 MR. O'SULLIVAN: 26, 27, 28, 29.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: 29.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: We will admit the transcript of the evidence of the

10 witness in the Milosevic trial. That, of course, raises the possibility

11 of the Court wishing to examine the witness and -- but that will always

12 remain a possibility in a situation like this. It's unlikely we would be

13 in a position to do so, however, during his current attendance here.

14 MR. HANNIS: For future reference, Your Honour, if the Court deems

15 it appropriate and necessary to have him come back at a future date, we

16 would only ask you to give us lots of notification because of his

17 circumstances it takes us a while to make those arrangements.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: We appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

19 Now, Mr. Fila, can I just before you start, say that I anticipate

20 in your cross-examination a potential for debate and dialogue at high

21 speed, which may cause interpretation difficulties. Since you are

22 speaking the same language and also because of your style, which is to get

23 into discussion sometimes, rather than to focus particular questions. Now

24 I don't want to cramp your style, because it may be helpful to all of us.

25 But I think in this instance you have to bear, particularly, in mind the

1 need to focus the issues as briefly as possible and try to help the

2 witness concentrate on particular points that you are interested in.

3 Mr. Fila.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Well, let's try and agree, Mr. Tanic. Let us not

6 be too hasty.

7 A. Yes. By all means, Mr. Fila.

8 Q. First of all, I don't intend to insult you, and that was not my

9 intention yesterday, in case you misunderstood. I was quoting Mihajlovic.

10 In any case --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Before -- just another matter, Mr. Fila, before we

12 go any further. Like the less-than-entirely-proficient concert pianist,

13 who has someone to turn the pages, it might be a good idea if someone

14 beside you is alerted to the control of the microphone, because I can see

15 the potential here for crossing over. So if that duty is in the hands of

16 a competent assistant, I think that will greatly assist us.

17 Mr. Fila.

18 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Risking to appear incompetent in your eyes, I wanted to say a few

22 words or questions about Rambouillet. You will agree with me that the

23 negotiations in Rambouillet concerned Kosovo and not troops?

24 A. Both.

25 Q. Very well. Let us not get into any semantic distinctions. Did

1 you know that the Serb delegation expressed their views as to their

2 readiness to accept any foreign troops in order to achieve a successful

3 agreement in Rambouillet?

4 A. At a certain point, that was mentioned, but then it was withdrawn.

5 You know how it went.

6 Q. That's why I said let us just touch upon it. Did you know that

7 the international community, as the key component for determining the

8 situation and the position of Kosovo, tried to impose an agreement on the

9 obligations to accept the results of the referendum on the fate of Kosovo,

10 which was to happen in the future?

11 A. Yes, I know. And that that deadline of three years could have

12 been prolonged.

13 Q. Yes. I guess you are familiar with it then. Yes. There were

14 three years in question. Do you agree with me that Serbia could not

15 accept that. It couldn't accept it then. It couldn't accept it now, such

16 referendum results on the fate of Kosovo?

17 A. No. Since there were political games in place which were at our

18 disposal to protect ourselves in such a situation.

19 Q. Therefore --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Fila please repeat the question.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

22 Q. My question was: Had the referendum stayed in the provisions, it

23 would have been unacceptable. But had it been done the way you mentioned,

24 that it was changed, then it would have been accepted?

25 A. But then you get into the question on what the referendum would

1 concern itself with.

2 Q. Can you just repeat the "yes."

3 A. I would kindly ask the interpreters to add "yes" to the answer.

4 Q. Does that mean --

5 THE INTERPRETER: There was a technical hitch with Mr. Fila's

6 microphone. We lost sound for a moment. Could the question be repeated,

7 please.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, could you repeat that question, please.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Does that mean that Serbia was supposed to accept secession, if

11 referendum was accepted and it would have been in favour of secession?

12 A. The situation would have been very complicated, but it was even

13 more complicated with the war. And I can see you are an expert on the

14 topic, and I'm glad to see that.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, this microphone arrangement is not

16 working. It's being left on and we have to do this properly. So can we

17 have your assistant alerted to the need to switch the microphone on and

18 off as necessary. It's very important.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. As

20 regards the transcript, page 60, line 11. It is stated as question,

21 whereas it was actually an answer.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You mean the words, "Can you just repeat the yes"?

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No. It is fine, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Did you know that Mrs. Madeleine Albright, in front of the entire

2 delegation of ours, before three negotiators and before the entire

3 American delegation, stated that only NATO comes into picture to enter

4 Yugoslavia. Did you know that?

5 A. I don't know about that. It doesn't mean anything. There is

6 always pressure in negotiations, then leeway, and so on and so forth. You

7 go a step back, a step forth; you know how things go. And besides, there

8 were negotiations before Rambouillet, and I always thought Rambouillet to

9 come too late, and that we were supposed to have signed an agreement with

10 Albanians before that. Rambouillet was the last chance. And you're

11 trying to focus it, whereas there were negotiations before this. The

12 Holbrooke arrangement could have been put in place, and there would have

13 been no need for Rambouillet, which was very difficult for us.

14 Q. Did you know that Holbrooke on the 24th of March, 1999 - as far as

15 I understood you were not in Yugoslavia on that day - but on that day, he

16 brought a piece of paper. It was a take-it-or-leave-it offer. It was no

17 offer to negotiate?

18 A. Holbrooke never came with such a paper based on the principle of

19 take it or leave it. He's not that type of negotiator. He always has a

20 reserve solution, a spare in his pocket, and he always negotiated with

21 Milosevic. I've never seen him come with such an offer; I've never heard

22 of it. Of course, you are talking of 1999 now.

23 Q. The 22nd of March, 1999, the day before the Assembly session. He

24 came with a piece of paper containing an offer of take it or leave it, or

25 the next day there will be bombing?

1 A. Incorrect. He had a spare option concerning the UN flag and the

2 Security Council mandate. Should there be a need, we can call in expert

3 witnesses.

4 Q. Therefore, you do not agree with me, or do you? An entire war was

5 needed for NATO to accept the UN flag. That's what I was trying to tell

6 you.

7 A. Mr. Fila, we didn't need the war at all. We could have completed

8 things with the Albanians in 1997 and 1998. That's the essence of my

9 testimony. We could have done away with their terrorism, as well, at that

10 time.

11 Q. I wanted to ask you who the person was you mentioned from the SDB.

12 You know which session you mean -- I mean.

13 A. Which session do you mean?

14 Q. When you didn't want to name of the person from the SDB?

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

16 session for that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not willing to state their name

18 in private session; otherwise, because that person is still at work and

19 his life can be in danger. Several independent sources can confirmed that

20 I had deals with them, and that is not in dispute.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

22 Q. But you mentioned him in a private session, do you remember?

23 A. Yes. But there were several people there.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila is interjecting.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

1 Q. It's not the person whose last name starts with an M?

2 (redacted)

3 Q. Yes. I will ask you about him, without mentioning the name. Did

4 you know that he was tasked by the SDB for the Vracar [Realtime transcript

5 read in error "Racak"] municipality?

6 A. Yes. I've known him for 25 years. Certainly, for the Vracar

7 municipality.

8 Q. Racak?

9 A. I heard Vracak. Then it was an interpretation mistake; they wrote

10 down "Racak."

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't know if the use of these initials is the --

12 is going to cause any difficulty when the name was previously referred to

13 privately? No.

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't know. I don't know if the

15 witness would have a position on that. And I guess I would remind the

16 speakers to take a pause in between questions and answers. That seems to

17 be causing difficulty for everyone.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.

19 Well, I've raised the matter. If anyone wishes action taken, they

20 should alert me to it.

21 Oh, Mr. Visnjic.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a correction for the

23 transcript. The municipality mentioned is Vracar, V-r-a-c-a-r. Since I

24 interjected at the moment we were discussing open or closed session, I

25 just wanted to say that in the Milosevic case the name of that witness was

1 mentioned in open session on several occasions. Therefore, the mentioning

2 of initials would cause no damage.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would cause no damage because

4 that person is not linked with anything that would result in the loss of

5 life.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Which municipality are we talking about here?

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] The municipality is Vracar in

8 Belgrade, one of the central municipalities in Belgrade.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did the gentleman, at a certain point, go to Kosovo in 1998, and

12 did he spent the first half of 1999 there up until June?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who did you have contact with? The contact you mentioned you had

15 on five or six occasions a week when he was absent, when he was in Kosovo?

16 A. There was another operative, as well as several other people; and

17 occasionally, I saw him when he returned from Kosovo. I had known him for

18 25 years, and we are good friends.

19 Q. You entered the service around 1980 or a bit earlier?

20 A. I didn't enter the service; that would be an overstatement. I

21 became a collaborator; and then you advance slowly, you are being trained,

22 et cetera, et cetera. I was being trained to be a political security

23 operative. It is standard technique employed everywhere in the world.

24 Q. Therefore, you became a collaborator, and then you were promoted.

25 What did you exactly mean?

1 A. When did I say that exactly? Within the network of collaborators,

2 I advanced. And at a certain point, I no longer needed to use my

3 pseudonym because everyone knew it was me, but I never said I went beyond

4 a collaborator's network. The first, initial things we did were

5 completely irrelevant.

6 It was described by Mr. Mijatovic in his statement. We had

7 contacts with the foreign service, but it was in the 1980s. Of course, at

8 first, I wasn't the star of the show. I simply advanced as a

9 collaborator. In the last few years, my status was such that I no longer

10 needed my pseudonym; everything went directly to the top.

11 Q. Directly to whom?

12 A. To the top of the service.

13 Q. What is the top of the service?

14 A. Mr. Fila, you know that. At the time, the head of the Belgrade

15 centre was the person - and this was the most important centre of the

16 security service in Serbia - and this was Mr. Mijatovic; and then on to

17 Mr. Stanisic, who was always man number two in our service.

18 Q. I know this, but the Bench doesn't. So I wanted to -- you to

19 state this.

20 A. Of course you do. You know them, as well as I do.

21 Q. When you worked as collaborator, was your pseudonym Rabin?

22 A. I can't answer to that question.

23 Q. Why can't you answer it? Are you surprised that I know it?

24 A. No, I'm not. Mijatovic mentioned it in his book. My favourite

25 collaborator Rabin, meaning rabbi, is walking around with the Minister

1 Mihajlovic in Paris having straws. You could have read that in the book,

2 but I can't answer your question because I don't know what pseudonyms were

3 used at that place.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, what do you mean by describing Stanisic

5 as "always man number two in our service"?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Another faulty interpretation. I

7 mean Mr. Mijatovic. We have problems with interpretation, Your Honour.

8 The only thing that would help would be if Mr. Fila and I need to abstain

9 from exchange of opinion.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Zoran Mijatovic is number two and

11 Jovica Stanisic would be number one. This is what the witness said.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. I only need to be told once, normally.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. After Stanisic and Mijatovic left - and that would be

15 October/November 1998 - who did you maintain contacts with?

16 THE INTERPRETER: There's a glitch in the microphone.

17 Interpreter's note: The microphone of Mr. Fila was switched off again.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that because that

19 person may be brought into trouble.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This is the second answer that you do not want to provide. Would

22 you change your mind if we went into private session?

23 A. I would have mentioned this person's identity when they received

24 the peace agreement, without commenting whether I had meetings with that

25 person or not. This is what I can say in private session, because that

1 person, as operative of the DB, received the peace agreement to shorten

2 the war. I can mention that in private session without comment whether

3 that person had worked with me or not.

4 Q. Mr. Tanic, this -- I'm interested in the person who worked with

5 you and not who received or prepared a peace agreement.

6 A. I apologise, Mr. Fila, I said I can -- I could name one person

7 with whom I worked during that time who received the peace agreement. And

8 about that situation, the peace offer from the west. But I don't want to

9 say whether that person worked with me or not. Because I worked with many

10 people, I cannot really walk around and disclose people's identities to

11 bring them into trouble.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the Court to go into

13 private session so that we can elicit a response on whom he worked with,

14 because Stanisic and Mijatovic were not there; that would be October 1998.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand the witness to be saying that he

16 wants to give the name of the person he was working with. I understood

17 him to be saying he will not confirm the identity of the person he worked

18 with after 1998. Now, are you understanding the position differently?

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, he said that he would mention the

20 name of one of the persons and not of the other person. So it's something

21 if we were to name one person.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a third thing. I said that I

23 would name one operative, who on behalf of the service, received the

24 document or information on the peace agreement for an early end of the

25 war, and who took part in my expulsion from the country or my going abroad

1 on a trip. That person may confirm that I was out on the ground, that I

2 worked on certain tasks, and that that person received from me, on behalf

3 of the service, the peace offer document.

4 And this is the only circumstances that I can link that person

5 with, because this is pertinent to this trial. As far as other operatives

6 that I worked with or if I were to confirm that I continually worked with

7 that person, at this, I do not want to confirm. And I ask the Bench to --

8 not to impose that obligation, because I may create trouble for those

9 people back there.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: In relation to the person whose name you are

11 willing to give, why must that be in private session?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For security reasons, for the safety

13 of that person.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. That's a good enough reason for us to

15 go into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11 Pages 6511-6515 redacted.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Tanic, my next question: Who gave you the tapes of the

6 conversation between Sainovic and Lukic? What is the name of that person?

7 A. Nobody gave me those tapes. It was -- I was just allowed to

8 listen to a part of the tape and I cannot name that person.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] As you can see, Your Honour, we still

10 have this problem.

11 (redacted)

12 is going to illuminate this problem at least indirectly for you.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. It is very important for me to explain who gave you the whole

15 tape, or at least a part of the tape; where, when, which place? Who,

16 when, and where?

17 A. That would jeopardise the life of that person, and it is

18 understandable that I cannot.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a moment when you

20 need to react, I believe, because otherwise I cannot continue.

21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, if I may.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: We've ...

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Unfortunately, there's been a reference that

25 needs to be redacted. I would ask you all, particularly the witness, who

1 is the one concerned, to be cautious about reference to names.

2 Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I think that if the

4 witness keeps this position in not revealing the names of the witnesses,

5 for us, it would be also impossible to conduct the cross-examination of

6 this witness, or we move -- that part of his statement would be redacted

7 and not part of this trial.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, have you a number of questions of this

9 nature?

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think it would help us to see the extent of the

12 problem. So could you advance at the moment and we will reserve our

13 decision on how to approach this until we see exactly the extent of the

14 problem.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: It may be that I can be of assistance. I'm not

18 sure this is the kind of assistance you're asking for.

19 In the witness's statement, at least 31 times he says his

20 information came from unnamed SDB contacts. I can give you the paragraph

21 numbers if that would be of assistance to you, and I think among the three

22 of us, or four of us left, we probably will want answers on, firstly, all

23 those paragraphs. I don't know if it would assist if you would have those

24 paragraph numbers, but if it would, I can tell you what they are.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's not necessary at the moment,

1 Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: We may return to that. Just give me a moment while

4 I look at my earlier notes.

5 For me to say anything further about this, I think we again need

6 to go into private session because there was -- it was discussed

7 previously in private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you have your statement in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Paragraph 86 in the Serbian, since I'm using Serbian, you said the

5 following: "From my western sources --" or "By my western sources, it was

6 confirmed to me that there is at least one taped conversation in which

7 Sainovic orders Lukic to kill Albanians."

8 You never mentioned that elsewhere, did you?

9 A. You're not done with your question?

10 Q. I was waiting for the interpreters. In the discussion of the 4th

11 and 5th of November, 2006, when you spoke to the OTP, you said the

12 following: "My western sources and the SDB confirmed the existence of the

13 taped conversations between Sainovic and Lukic, dating back to early 1999

14 in which Sainovic ordered Lukic" - listen carefully - "to attack the

15 villages with Albanian population. I heard this conversation on a tape in

16 the SDB."

17 Yesterday, to Mr. Hannis's question, you said that the tape was

18 gained by intercepting a conversation, and that you can hear on it that

19 Sainovic exchanges views and issues instructions to Lukic concerning

20 combat operations in that village, and later to remove all traces. You

21 also said that Sainovic and Lukic were tapped and that western sources had

22 such tapes containing Sainovic and Lukic's conversations. You also said

23 that Radio B92 mentioned the existence of the tape - you didn't say

24 whether it was radio or TV, actually - and that it can be seen that

25 Sainovic issued instructions to Lukic so as how to remove the corpses from

1 Racak, and before that concerning combat activities.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Time for a question, Mr. Fila.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Now the question.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I was just about to.

6 Q. Do you realise that these were different statements and that both

7 were given under oath? And I can start all over again.

8 A. I insisted, concerning my previous statement that was amended,

9 that changes be inserted. I may have used poor wording. I was probably

10 too tired and speaking in English, and it would have been unfair on my

11 part to say that Sainovic ordered Lukic to kill Kosovo Albanians.

12 Certainly not, not the way that was formed. But the attack on a civilian

13 village does boil down to having civilian casualties among the Kosovar

14 Albanians. Therefore, I asked the Prosecutor, since this was not a very

15 elegant formulation -- and it was pregnant with meaning. It seemed almost

16 as Lukic and Sainovic were having a hand-gun killing Albanians. That's

17 why I wanted it corrected, to the extent presented by the OTP, that there

18 were instructions concerning the attack on the village, and in that

19 village, apart from the terrorists, there was a large number of civilians,

20 which boils down to the same thing.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. Another thing --

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I may. At this point, in light of

24 how it appears in the transcript, I think I need to read into the record

25 the exact wording of the supplemental information on this paragraph,

1 because it's slightly different than how it got interpreted from the B/C/S

2 that Mr. Fila was speaking about. It reads: "My western sources have

3 confirmed to me, et cetera, should read: 'My western and SDB sources

4 confirmed a taped conversation between Sainovic and Lukic in early 1999 in

5 which Sainovic directed Lukic to attack Kosovo Albanian villages. I heard

6 a tape of this conversation at the SDB.'"

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Now, we're going to break again.

9 Mr. Fila, I thought you were going to go through some paragraphs

10 with a view to identifying who the sources were and then you would

11 continue with your cross-examination. So we haven't really progressed the

12 issue that's before us.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour, I said the

14 very same thing Mr. Hannis quoted. I didn't put it any other way. Let us

15 be clear on that.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, well, back to the point I'm making to you: I

17 thought that you were going to go through some paragraphs and show me just

18 how extensive this problem was going to be, but we haven't reached that

19 stage yet. Hopefully we will sometime soon.

20 We'll have to adjourn now until ten minutes to 1.00.

21 Into closed session for the witness to leave, and we'll remain in

22 closed session until we return.

23 [Closed session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We identified all paragraphs, but among

3 the Defence, we have agreed that I will only address those pertaining to

4 Mr. Sainovic and Mr. Ackerman will address the other paragraphs. And I'm

5 prepared to continue.

6 Q. During your testimony, Mr. Tanic, you said that, through different

7 SDB channels, you informed our people in Serbia that the RTS was to be

8 bombed. My question is: Through what people did you inform the Serbian

9 side; by what means? And please bear in mind that there is a letter by

10 Goran Petrovic, who worked at the time of Rade Markovic, who says that

11 within the SDB service there is no such information, and that is part of

12 the record.

13 A. The operative channels were identified before I left the country,

14 and the person was identified in closed session. The information was

15 provided via communications links, because I was abroad at the time, and I

16 believe that is the answer to your question.

17 As regards Goran Petrovic's position on it, I cannot comment. The

18 information was forwarded and the other person was named in closed

19 session, and it can be confirmed.

20 Q. Let us understand something. As regards the aforementioned

21 person, you said that you only gave him a plan when you went out in 1999.

22 You know what I'm talking about. But you didn't say that you gave him

23 information on the bombing of the RTS. That's what you stated here for

24 the first time.

25 A. Well, it was an addition, so as to be cooperative and for the

1 interests of justice. But we are talking about an operative, about a

2 person who transmitted that.

3 Q. Can you tell me when you gave it to him, and where.

4 A. As far as I recall, it was via communication means. I was

5 abroad. I may be mistaken as to the exact date. It was taped. Since

6 this is standard operating procedure, you can ask for a tape from our

7 institutions, and then Mr. Petrovic will change his view.

8 Q. As far as I know, Petrovic said no, and you have his letter in the

9 file.

10 A. Well, then summon the person identified in closed session. I

11 cannot undertake the role of the Court here.

12 Q. I'm not asking you anything, Mr. Tanic, except to answer my

13 questions.

14 A. I just wanted to clarify that that person was not at the

15 decision-making level. He was an operative and there was no time for any

16 meetings. And we used the arranged means of communication that I had in

17 place to communicate with the SDB, together with the codes and everything.

18 Q. This is what I'm interested: Who established the means to be

19 used? It was at a time when there was no Mijatovic or Stanisic. Who was

20 it? Tell us the names of people you agreed on the codes, the means and

21 how and when; if not, tell us you don't want to answer it and I'll move

22 on.

23 A. I think I've explained sufficiently. You can confirm that with

24 the person who was mentioned during closed session, and you can ask him

25 for more information since it didn't concern only the plan but generally.

1 I just said that that person should not be held accountable for

2 everything. He was not informed with everything. He was an operative.

3 Q. Therefore, it wasn't done through him or with him but with someone

4 higher up, as regards the means of communication, if I understand

5 correctly; yes or no?

6 A. No, you didn't understand me.

7 Q. Let us try again. Who did you agree with on the plan of

8 communication and means to be used as well as the codes to be used, if not

9 that person?

10 A. I suppose that person could tell you.

11 Q. But that's not him.

12 A. He wasn't at that rank, at that level. He couldn't make such

13 arrangements.

14 Q. That's what I asked you a moment ago. Was that plan put in

15 writing as to the codes and the rest?

16 A. Mr. Fila, you know the nature of such work. What do you mean "in

17 writing," that we signed on what we agreed? No. We used the codes. That

18 was the only thing that was written down because you can't memorise

19 everything.

20 Q. Therefore, to conclude, you don't want to tell us the name of that

21 person with whom you made that plan and who provided you with the codes;

22 yes or no?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Tanic, why is it you will not give that

25 information?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to apologise

2 for interjecting before. I wasn't aware that you were still addressing

3 the Defence.

4 There are three reasons, the first being to protect the physical

5 integrity; the second, these are intelligence things and at wartime it is

6 very easy to go wrong on your assessment. And at this moment, this person

7 may have been involved in the attempted murder of myself, maybe yes, maybe

8 no. I start going into such theorising, I would put myself in a situation

9 far too burdensome for any witness, and this was what the state of Serbia

10 was supposed to do. And Goran Petrovic, as I learned now, denied that.

11 When I met the minister of the interior, Mihajlovic, in Paris 2001, Goran

12 Petrovic was there with him and I talked to Mihajlovic about Milosevic

13 allowing intentionally for the bombing of the RTS. And Petrovic never

14 denied that --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now you're wandering from the subject. I'm asking

16 you why you will not divulge the name. Now, the first reason was to

17 protect the physical integrity. Is this someone who continues to work in

18 the security service?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: You then say that -- if you start going into

21 theorising, you would put yourself in a situation far too burdensome for

22 any witness. What are you theorising about?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were to dwell on theories, who

24 cooperated with whom during war, secret services cooperated quite a lot,

25 ours with the foreign services, with us, et cetera --

1 JUDGE BONOMY: You're not being asked to theorised; you're only

2 being asked for the facts. Do you appreciate that if anything is said in

3 private session in this court that it's not open to anyone within the

4 court to disclose that information, except to the extent that it is

5 necessary for the purpose of investigating the case? Now, do you

6 understand that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I also understand that the

8 Defence knows that; and in that case, it's as if I published it openly.

9 And apart from that, there is another reason. If I were to disclose such

10 a thing, those persons will negate everything. Nobody is fool enough to

11 admit to such things. I believe that the onus should be put more to the

12 Prosecution and the Court. We are dealing with things that do exist.

13 Everything was taped during the war, and if the state of Serbia

14 does not want to provide those tapes and is offering lies, then there's no

15 way for me to influence that and that is now the problem between the

16 Tribunal and the state of Serbia. This is not my problem. If I were to

17 name those persons with whom I worked, tomorrow those persons are going to

18 send you statements that they never laid their eyes on me. And after

19 that, you know what will happen to me. I'm in a witness protection

20 programme together with my wife and child. Maybe that person had been

21 threatened, maybe they've changed their opinion. We are dealing with

22 turbulent times, and this is why I mentioned the parts of the tapes. I

23 mentioned that I heard it and that never dwelled on how and what -- and

24 parts of my communication were also taped. I know that my communication

25 with the secret service while I was inside the country and outside the

1 country were taped. These are important things to be taped. Everything

2 exists in Serbia. If they don't want to provide that to The Hague

3 Tribunal. For instance, now I heard for the first time in my life that

4 Goran Petrovic is now negating things --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

6 Mr. Fila, please carry on.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If it would be of any use, Your Honour,

8 that person, Goran Petrovic, was head of the State Security Sector after

9 the fall of Milosevic. He's now retired. He's alive and well.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But Milosevic spoke differently when

11 he was with him. Of course he's alive and well and now he's denying

12 everything. You know, Mr. Fila, what happens in Serbia, and the Court

13 knows that as well.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If Your Honours allows me, I would like

15 to ask a question.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Please carry on, Mr. Fila.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You said that, under the authority of SDB, you went to Hungary

19 during the bombing. On two occasions you went abroad if I'm not very much

20 mistaken?

21 A. Yes, that's correct, through Hungary to the west.

22 Q. Yes. First you have to go through Hungary. In the trial of

23 Milosevic -- in the Milosevic trial, during examination-in-chief, my

24 learned colleague Nice asked you on whose decision you left the country

25 during the bombing, and then you stated that pursuant to the decision of

1 the joint staff of the defence of Belgrade, that is Milosevic trial

2 transcript on the 15th of May, 2002, page 4969, lines 6 to 7, and 4970,

3 lines 5 to 6.

4 A. Yes. During the war the command was integrated and persons from

5 the area of Belgrade, where I lived, may leave the town only pursuant to a

6 decision of the joint defence command of Belgrade. Everything was

7 approved by Milosevic, and as far as has become known to the public, only

8 two persons were involved in acceleration of end of war were involved. My

9 person and Mr. Lilic, we achieved the same results. But the joint

10 command -- joint staff is mentioned because this is a technical thing. I

11 was a military conscript at the time.

12 Q. Now we are coming to the part which I'd like to ask you about.

13 You haven't mentioned this joint staff. Who is the person who ordered you

14 to go abroad on these two occasions? Who paid for the trip? How much

15 were you paid? And who did you report back to when you came back?

16 A. The second person mentioned in private session may help you with

17 this thing.

18 Q. Who told you to go abroad? Is that your answer?

19 A. It came from the very top of the service, and that top of the

20 service must have consulted with Milosevic.

21 Q. What is the name, given name and family name, of the person who

22 told you to go abroad in 1999?

23 A. The gentleman mentioned in private session may probably help you

24 with that.

25 Q. So you don't want to say? You require that I ask that person

1 mentioned in private session. Is this your position?

2 A. Yes, I believe I was more than cooperative in such substantive

3 issues.

4 Q. Who paid you and how much to go abroad?

5 A. SDB covered part of the expenses and the total expense reached

6 some 10.000 German marks for the -- for both trips. They covered

7 approximately half of it.

8 Q. I am asking you the name of the person who gave you this money.

9 A. This is the person mentioned in private session, the operative.

10 Q. Did you report back to that staff or the SDB upon return?

11 A. Yes, absolutely.

12 Q. Which?

13 A. Well, the person mentioned in private session may help you with

14 that.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can we identify the dates of these visits

16 that you're referring to, Mr. Fila? Please --

17 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, the witness asks us not to harp

20 on him with regard to dates, and I'm trying to accommodate him. I'm not

21 asking him whether it was a Monday or Tuesday. He said during the

22 bombing.

23 Q. Can you remember any dates? I don't want to harp on that too

24 much.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, never mind the dates. If -- that's not

1 important, but where were these visits to?

2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Could you please explain what was it all about when you went

4 abroad?

5 A. Yes, of course. I can do that. Hungary, Italy, and United

6 Kingdom, this is as far as I can say and I believe that this will more

7 than suffice.

8 Q. Both times?

9 A. Yes, both times.

10 Q. Would it be useful for us to find out who you spoke to on these

11 trips, if you wish to divulge?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well --

14 A. Partly that can be -- that information can provide you with part

15 of an answer by the ambassador, Italian ambassador to Belgrade,

16 Ricardo Sosa, but he did not accompany me on those trips. He was in

17 Belgrade -- well, during the second trip, he was abroad, but don't put

18 your focus on Italy. No need to drag that country into this whole mess,

19 and Mr. Milutinovic had a very well-established contacts with Italy,

20 Italian ambassador, and he knows much about that.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: On one associated matter, let's go into private

22 session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Tanic, with regard to what you were asked by His Honour, you

18 know that managers of the SDB were Rade Markovic and Radonjic?

19 A. Yes, of course I do.

20 Q. Was one of them the person who sent you abroad?

21 A. [Microphone not activated]

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You have to provide an answer, otherwise it will not enter the

25 transcript.

1 A. I have no comment.

2 Q. When you were kidnapped -- I'm not going to dwell on that. It

3 must have been a terrifying experience. Do you know at whose orders or

4 instructions from the top of SDB or was it SDB, or was it solely done by

5 JSO?

6 A. Mijatovic and Mihajlovic confirmed that it was on somebody else's,

7 and they confirmed to me on 2001, when I had contacts with them.

8 Mijatovic at the time was deputy head of the State Security Service and

9 Mihajlovic was the minister of the police. They confirmed the identity of

10 those persons and the participation of the JSO, and everything was taped

11 anyway.

12 Q. I'm not going to force you to spell out their names, but you know

13 who we are talking about?

14 A. Mr. Fila, of course I do know that. I know the name of the person

15 who was in operational command of this whole action, and this is why I'm

16 being so cautious.

17 Q. Well, did they force you to sign anything that would involve the

18 British secret service, something about your relations with the British

19 secret service?

20 A. Yes, we can open -- speak openly about that. Well, finally they

21 had to come up with something because the Vuk Draskovic connection fell

22 through. They wanted to get rid of us very quickly. I have to explain

23 the circumstances, otherwise the Judges may think that I'm inventing

24 things. So after this unsuccessful assassination attempt at Ibarska Maga

25 Strela [phoen]. They came back, and I was completely disheveled. And it

1 was evident that they tried to get of us very quickly, not to kill us but

2 to have nothing to do with us anymore.

3 And as I stated, I did not want to provide information on

4 Stanisic, Mijatovic on camera -- no, no, wait. We are coming to that.

5 They had to produce some results to their boss, you know. So since they

6 could not elicit any admission as to the coup d'etat or any other thing,

7 then finally they insisted that I take part of the responsibility on

8 myself. And I said, Okay, it goes for me, my body, I can take part of the

9 responsibility. But since I'd be involved in this for 25 years, I knew

10 that they had to produce some results, provide some goods, otherwise the

11 situation would have been worse.

12 So I took some responsibility, but in a way which makes it certain

13 that it was done under duress. I had a cynical smirk on my face. I

14 mentioned people for whom it was known that they had nothing to do with

15 it. You know, they had to have something on tape, on camera, but it is

16 evident from my cynical smirk that I really did not mean what I was

17 saying. I was providing loads of gibberish to them. They could not kill

18 Vuk Draskovic so they had to make do with something.

19 Q. [No interpretation]

20 JUDGE BONOMY: May I ask what all of that had to do with the

21 question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was whether they forced

23 me to sign anything, with relation to the British security service. I did

24 not sign anything.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And did they?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Yes. As I said,

2 I -- they had to produce some goods --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Where do I read in your answer that they made you

4 sign something to do with the British secret service?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, maybe it was completely

6 precise --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Your description of gibberish may, to some extent,

8 apply to some of the things you say in answer to some of these questions.

9 Please concentrate on what the question is about. There's no answer to

10 the question contained in that very long passage from you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They did -- not to sign, but

12 they wanted to some footage of me admitting.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I still don't know what you did. If you want

16 to tell -- if you want me to make any finding about what was done to you

17 on this occasion, you better tell me. Did you say something about the --

18 your connection with the British secret service, or did you not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. But they knew that

20 beforehand, because the SDB exchanged information with them through me --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I just want the facts, Mr. Tanic. Are you ever

22 going to get that into your head that we want to know the facts, what

23 actually happened. So what was it you told them about your relations with

24 the British Secret Service?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, then we should move into

1 closed session, please. I can ask that --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: A moment ago you said, "Oh, yes, we can talk about

3 that openly." Your very words. Now we're in private session for what

4 reason?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because now you are asking me to

6 dwell on details. I can give you a generalised answer in an open

7 session. But now that you require me to provide details, I would to do so

8 in private session or closed session.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you wish this information, Mr. Fila?

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I wanted to elicit

11 information from him, whether he signed anything referring to himself and

12 another person.

13 Q. Did you state that about that other person or not?

14 A. No, I was not forced to sign anything.

15 Q. [Microphone not activated]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Again, the question is not answered because the

18 question ultimately was: Did you state that about that other person or

19 not? Now, did you say something about another person on this tape or

20 video?

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's better for us to move into

22 private session and let -- let's have him say that.

23 Q. I didn't want to ask you anything about Dusan Mihajlovic.

24 A. It would be better if we moved into closed session.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we have to have reasons for going into closed

1 session. This is a public trial. What is the reason for going into

2 closed session?

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, don't ask me. I wanted to

4 have it public; he didn't. I cannot go any further.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You wanted to know whether I was

6 asked anything about Dusan Mihajlovic.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And about the service, because my research points to -- points in

9 another direction. Did they asked you about the British Secret Service,

10 about your membership, the person I mentioned?

11 A. What person? Dusan Mihajlovic?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just stop. This episode started off as questions

13 about whether anything -- you were compelled to say anything about the

14 British secret service. And we got a ramble answer that never mentioned

15 the British secret service. Now we're trying to make progress beyond that

16 stage, and the only point we've reached is something about Dusan

17 Mihajlovic, which is totally vague to me. So nothing has come of the last

18 five minutes of this court process. Let's rewind, Mr. Fila, start again,

19 and if there is an issue that requires private session and there's a

20 justification for it, we will go into it. But you take the lead because

21 obviously I'm certainly going to cause confusion.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm confused.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Let us be confused together. The basic question: Why do we need

25 to move into closed session for you to explain what they asked you and

1 what you told them as regards the British secret service? That's what you

2 need to tell us, and then a decision can be made.

3 A. What was said was to confuse them, for me to be able to keep my

4 head on my shoulders. These are yet some other operative techniques I

5 employed to save my skin. I don't want to address that openly, but as

6 regards Mihajlovic, I can address that openly. I just need to know what

7 you want to do -- to know, Mihajlovic, the British secret service, the

8 JSO. I'm confused. I apologise to the Bench.

9 Q. I'm not interested in the JSO. You answered as regards Dusan

10 Mihajlovic. So the first question remains: What did you tell them about

11 your work with the British security service?

12 A. I lied to them in a way so as to render the material they gained

13 worthless. That's why I wanted to explain this in detail in closed

14 session.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It is up to you, Your Honour. Should

16 you decide we move -- we should move into private session.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is this information that's of any importance

18 for the trial? No. Well, let's move on. Thanks.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We're all tired. I'll just move on.

20 Q. So do you want now to tell us what they -- what you told them?

21 Are we in private session?

22 JUDGE BONOMY: No, there's no reason. If you wish this

23 information, we shall go into private session.

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You left the service after that, after the unfortunate event, and

3 you left the country, if I understand correctly?

4 A. Yes. But it can hardly be described as an unfortunate event. A

5 month later, I left the country.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila's microphone was not on from the start.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I'm interested in this: Why didn't you return to the country when

10 your Dusan Mihajlovic became minister, Goran Petrovic became the man

11 number two, and Zoran Mijatovic the man number three? What prevented you

12 from coming back?

13 A. I thank you for that answer. I knew that the same people, who

14 were most likely to kill me, helped these three come to power. And as it

15 turned out I was right, because then Mr. Zoran Djindjic, the prime

16 minister, was killed subsequently. You know very well, Mr. Fila - and

17 it's not nice of you to hide that from the Bench - but you do know that

18 the new government in Serbia was installed with the assistance of the

19 special units.

20 Q. [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila's microphone was not on from the start.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I had discussions with two

23 members of that new government and later on abroad. And I was under the

24 impression that they owe a lot to the JSO -- and let me complete the

25 answer. Apart from that I saw Mihajlovic refuse to clear my name and to

1 close my case. I asked from him, as minister of the police, to clear the

2 situation as regards the torture and the kidnapping, to close the file, to

3 clear my name.

4 We needn't indict anyone. But let us settle the situation,

5 because I knew they were behind some other murders. And I also asked that

6 my debts be waived. I asked for the books and my wife's piano. I had

7 asked for that in writing twice, and he did nothing. And now you are

8 asking why I didn't go back. How can I go back when my party comrade, the

9 minister of the police, cannot even do so much as to return my books and

10 my wife's piano. And I spoke to him in Paris and he said: Ratko, just

11 drop that and come back. And I realised that nothing would come of that

12 and the remnants of Milosevic's regime are still there, behind the scenes,

13 wielding power and force. And I was right and you can only judge that by

14 Djindjic's murder.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. At that meeting in Paris, were you at that time employed by the

17 British secret service as well?

18 A. No.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Escorted by the

20 British secret service.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But there were French

22 operatives there, secured by Mijatovic or someone else.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Well, I wasn't on good terms with Mijatovic. What were the

25 reasons for you to start collaborating with the SDB? Did you do that for

1 money, for ideology?

2 A. Because of my ideas and my political beliefs. At that time I was

3 gaging myself in politics; therefore, ideology reasons.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, just a moment. There's an answer there

5 that's quite inconsistent with what was said.

6 The question was: At that meeting at Paris, were you at that time

7 employed -- sorry, escorted by the British secret service. Now, what was

8 your answer to that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I was not, but as I learned

10 subsequently, there were French operatives, the French Secret Service, and

11 I learned that from Mijatovic's book. They were there, around, at least

12 that's what he said, but that may not be true. I wasn't escorted by

13 anyone. I just went there to see my former head of party and the

14 then-minister of police, to see if he could help me with my property --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand. Thank you.

16 Mr. Fila.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You said that on several occasions you met with Mijatovic. Is it

19 correct that in 1995, in restaurant Vusce [Realtime transcript read in

20 error "Vustrin"], he paid you 2.000 Deutschemarks.

21 A. Yes, it is true, and that was to cover expenses. The name of the

22 restaurant is Vusce, V-u-s-c-e. The interpretation is incorrect. It was

23 in 1995, and I've known him and them since the 1980s.

24 Q. Did you receive money on several occasions, and from whom, on the

25 part of the SDB?

1 A. Yes, it is correct. On several occasions, to cover expenses,

2 apart from the time of war when another person paid the money out to me.

3 Before that, Mijatovic gave money to me on two or three occasions, and

4 this was to cover expenses. It was no fee of any sort.

5 Q. What was your status within the SDB? Was your reputation as that

6 of a reliable or an unreliable person?

7 A. Mr. Fila, I can only answer that indirectly, having in mind the

8 issues discussed here, the intelligence part of politics, particularly

9 when it comes to Kosovo and the international community. My reputation

10 was of a high standing. Now, of course, they will say it was a very bad

11 reputation.

12 Q. I wanted to show you an exhibit, it's 2D6.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Can we please have that on a screen.

14 It is a book. [Microphone not activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was disclosed by the

17 OTP under Rule 68. This book was mentioned on several occasions by the

18 witness. It's called, "A Requiem for State Secret." We translated it in

19 part, and as soon as a full translation is available, we'll hand it over.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: A full translation of what? Not the whole book.

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Of this excerpt. It includes several

22 pages of the book.

23 Could we see page 2 of 9 in the English translation. In e-court

24 that is page 5. I will read out a passage, and the Bench has that in

25 English.

1 Q. Mijatovic says --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Fila please specify what paragraph

3 he's reading from. Thank you.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, the interpreters have a problem. They

5 want to know where you're reading from, what page of the --

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The book "Requiem for a State Secret,"

7 page 209 of the book in the Serbian. In e-court --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: So is that it, what we now. Thank you. Please

9 proceed.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. "We have connected Mr. Tanic as a liaison with the foreign

12 intelligence agency before the multi-party system was established, and

13 slowly started a little game, which was common on such occasions. In

14 order to secure ourselves, we had acquired rather solid compromising

15 material in time, in case unwanted events should occur in our operative

16 combination. Even as a superintendent, I worked along with the operative

17 that led him on creating compromising documentation, and in two instances,

18 I personally paid Mr. Tanic for his effort... Tanic liked money, and as a

19 result of that he had problems numerous times with the colleagues in the

20 public security."

21 That was the first quote. Did you have problems with the state --

22 with public security?

23 A. No, I had no problems with them. On several occasions they

24 intended to submit criminal reports against me, and then it turned out

25 they were all false, hence I had no problems with them.

1 Q. Do you know Nenad Milic [Realtime transcript read in

2 error "Lilic"]? He was the chef du cabinet to Zoran Djindjic and

3 Mihajlovic's deputy in the party.

4 A. That person worked on such a case of a false criminal report, but

5 it was rejected by the Court.

6 Q. Did he arrest you in 1996 and 1997 for illegal trade of chemical

7 agents?

8 A. No. It was a completely different case. We tried to collect a

9 debt from a person, and that person submitted a criminal report.

10 Nenad Milic did not arrest me but summoned me for an interview. I need to

11 explain to the Court. And then the SDB intervened. They asked that this

12 be done through regular channels and that it be sent to the court so that

13 Milic wouldn't meddle with it. As soon as it reached the court, I

14 submitted evidence and it was rejected.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It wasn't "Lilic" but "Milic" in the

16 transcript.

17 Q. The next quote, the same page --

18 A. Nenad Milic, "M."

19 Q. The same page, next quote:

20 "More serious work with Tanic started when he relied on the

21 English intelligence service ... He was regularly contacted by an English

22 intelligence officer George Busby ... He had contacts with important

23 people, and had created many friendly contacts, some of which he even

24 recruited. Tanic was persuaded by the money, and he was not the only

25 one."

1 What is your comment? This is stated by your friend Zoran

2 Mijatovic.

3 A. As far as I can see, he is to appear here and he will be examined

4 by the OTP. It is not correct that they started working seriously with me

5 when I started cooperating with the English intelligence service.

6 The second sentence, I can comment in closed session because there

7 are names mentioned.

8 Q. [Microphone not activated].

9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Fila's microphone wasn't on.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't protected for

11 Mr. Mijatovic. Maybe this is his right -- proper name. As for the money

12 and the persuasion, the best evidence, since I was given waiver by the

13 British Security Service to speak openly, we worked in 1992 and 1993

14 against Milosevic's regime, to suppress his madness, and the first money I

15 received was as late as 1999. Up until then, we even shared costs for

16 lunch. Therefore, until 1999, I got nothing. Then I don't think I could

17 be persuaded by money. There is proof that we even shared lunch costs.

18 And I don't want to comment on the name of that person, because you don't

19 know, Mr. Fila, whether that is his real name or not.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. Page 6 in e-court, the next quote,

22 Mijatovic is addressing Mr. Nice, and he says:

23 "Tanic, during NATO bombing, tried to cheat on us. The then-head

24 of the Belgrade centre was not operationally illiterate. He allowed for

25 accounts to be settled between him and the service, and it was clear the

1 way it was customary for such situations when agents are caught lying.

2 And I wanted to tell Marina to tell Nice that the aforementioned person

3 was spanked."

4 This is Mijatovic's view of your abduction.

5 A. Well, not in full, because a few pages later he addresses my

6 abduction more seriously and in detail in the same book. Otherwise, this

7 is incorrect, that I tried to lie to the security service during the war;

8 otherwise, I would have been legally arrested for deception and I would

9 have received a prolonged prison sentence.

10 In any case, I wouldn't have been sent abroad and I couldn't have

11 come back with the same result that Milic did and no one's saying that

12 Milic lied. I would have been arrested had I lied, but what can you do

13 you do? He'll be here as a witness. He'll have to wash his hands. It is

14 completely incorrect as a description. I wasn't spanked. I would never

15 ask anyone to be spanked the way I was.

16 Perhaps we can leaf through some other pages where Mr. Mijatovic

17 addresses my abduction in different terms.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Fila repeat the question because he

19 overlapped.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, would you start that question again

21 because you overlapped with the witness's answer.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask whether the -- to

23 elicit the witness's comment, and he provided one.

24 Q. The next quote, Mr. Nice: "I am deputy head of the service.

25 Mr. Mihajlovic is a former party comrade and former advisor of the

1 Ministry of the Interior and he is afraid of coming back to the country.

2 This is illogical, isn't it? And we looked into it and lo and behold,

3 everything boils down to Mr. Busby. The preparation for Hague witness

4 testimony is well underway. Mr. Tanic is loafing about the North American

5 [as interpreted] continent and throughout Europe, and now he's enjoying

6 the money to the hilt and this is the thing that he likes most."

7 What does this mean, that you've been prepared by this person

8 here, referred to as Busby, whichever name he may have, and to be prepared

9 for your testimony?

10 A. I'm waiting for the interpretation. I said Northern Europe

11 continent, not the North American continent. I'd like this mistake to be

12 rectified. Northern Europe is referred to, not North American.

13 My comment would be the following: At the time when this was

14 being prepared, the Hague Tribunal, the trial, the person referred to here

15 as Busby - and I cannot confirm or deny that - was never here. I had

16 never seen him before. You can see it from the transcripts. We had not

17 met during that time. He had no preparations with me. To the contrary.

18 They learned some things from me and this is why I was commented upon in

19 Belgrade, and that he's -- I've explained his position of deputy head of

20 service and Mihajlovic's position as Minister of the Interior. This was

21 the reason why I never came back to Serbia. They were very dear to me,

22 but it became clear to me that that person could not even return the

23 stolen books from me.

24 Q. Yes, this is your testimony already.

25 A. Yes, but the person referred to as Busby had not met me at the

1 time; this can be verified. He had no preparations with me and I had not

2 changed my appearance. I haven't changed my acts, et cetera. I had not

3 changed my actions because part of that was published in 1997 of what I

4 had done -- of my contacts, and I wasn't strolling across Northern

5 Europe. This can be verified by the Court. I just went to Paris once to

6 see Petrovic and Mihajlovic.

7 Q. I have two quotes and I'll be finished for the day.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: No, Mr. Fila, we -- well, let's check whether

9 there's another trial here.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, we can't go on. I know it's ridiculous,

12 Mr. Fila, that we have to work in this way, but these questions and

13 answers have a tendency to go on at great length and there's a couple of

14 things that need to be clarified.

15 You say that -- well, let me ask you the question this way. When

16 did you meet Busby?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the person referred to in this

18 book as George Busby, I met him in 1992/1993 [as interpreted], in

19 Belgrade.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: And the answer that's been transcribed is not very

21 clear. Were -- are you saying that you didn't meet him around the time of

22 giving your statement here?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Absolutely. We spoke once, but

24 we did not meet at that time in 1999/2000. I never met with the person.

25 You may ask the Brits. And in no way did he influence my testimony,

1 because he learned many things with regard to Serbian or Milosevic's

2 secrets from me; the secrets about provoking the war and he learned many

3 things from me to be able to ask ...

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Fila, how much more have you got in your

5 cross-examination?

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm at middle point, but

7 I'm going to accelerate. I have two more quotes from the books, and I'll

8 be wrapping up his intelligence career.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a problem with the

10 interpretation. It says, "I never met this person." I meant I never saw

11 that person in the period 1999/2000. We spoke on the phone once or twice,

12 and that was all. And that person did not participate in priming me for

13 testimony in the ICTY and no other secret service --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... We've got that

15 information already. It's just repetition of what you've already told us.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the cross-examination has already run for

18 about the same length of time as the examination-in-chief, and that's

19 roughly our touchstone. So what is the position?

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will have to ask for

21 more time, because we've lost quite a lot of time by the dragging of the

22 witness's feet. And I've -- as you see, I will accelerate and it will be

23 seen from my conduct that I don't want this to be prolonged and deferred,

24 but he's a very important witness, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that you should have some discussion

1 immediately after the Court rises and speak with the court deputy to give

2 him some indication of what time-scale's involved here. And you probably

3 should also consult with Mr. Hannis on that, because it -- it certainly

4 will be of interest to me to know how long re-examination might be so that

5 we can climb ahead.

6 Mr. Tanic, that brings our session today to an end because another

7 case has to come into this court, and we have to remove ourselves very

8 quickly. Please leave the court with the usher, and bear in mind the

9 instruction I gave you before that you must not discuss the evidence

10 overnight with anyone. Back here to resume tomorrow at 9.00.

11 Oh, yes, and we'll now go closed session while you leave.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

13 [Closed session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

18 November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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