1 Thursday, 25 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Milutinovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, you have something to raise?
7 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, we have a motion that hopefully the
8 Trial Chamber has received this morning.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've seen this briefly, and it comes -- if it
10 deals with evidence we've already heard, then it -- in its current
11 formulation it comes too late.
12 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to bar any evidence that the Prosecution
13 might lead. I have no way of knowing what they intend to lead.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: What you'll have to do now is in the event
15 something emerges, raise the matter at that stage, and we will address the
16 issue in the context of the trial. We're not revisiting evidence which
17 has already been led in the case without taking objection.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we did object and it became as a complete
20 JUDGE BONOMY: When did you object?
21 MR. IVETIC: Yesterday, we objected to the question that was
22 raised where the Prosecution directly tried to bring in the police and
23 implied that it was the VJ and the police, when all the witnesses say it
24 was the VJ and Arkan's men. At line 24 and 25 of page 9126, the question
25 was raised: "And was this only VJ soldiers in this group you call infantry
1 or were there also police" --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That was an objection to a leading question, it
3 wasn't an objection to any reference to the police. Please, don't mislead
4 us. There was no objection taken to evidence being led about the police.
5 MR. IVETIC: Because we had to verify the disclosure. It came as
6 a shock to us that they could be asking so many questions about the
8 JUDGE BONOMY: You should have taken the point at that stage that
9 this was not something covered by the Rule 65 ter summary as you're now
10 contending. If in some reason you're prejudiced by this, then your remedy
11 is not the one you're now seeking. Your remedy is a different remedy. If
12 you address that if it arises, then we will address it.
13 Equally, if you contend that a later question asked by the
14 Prosecution causes a problem, then we will address the issue at that
15 stage, but we're not going to start -- this is a matter of principle. We
16 are not going to start revisiting evidence on the basis of objections not
17 raised at the time. We'll be hear forever if we do that.
18 MR. IVETIC: I agree, but I'm also trying, Your Honour, to
19 forestall any practice that appears to be developing on the part of the
20 Prosecution to be making last-minute changes and bringing every witness --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: You know there's sympathy to that, but it has to be
22 raised at the right time and in the right context. If this causes you
23 some sort of prejudice other than being evidence against you that's meant
24 to be prejudicial anyway, if it causes you some unfair evidence, then it's
25 for you to raise that with us and we'll address that issue.
1 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That will be, for example, by adjourning or
3 whatever. But now that evidence is before us, then we have to deal with
4 it and make sure you have a fair opportunity to deal with it, too. If, as
5 I repeat, the issue arises again, we will address it if you take an
6 objection at that stage.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Meanwhile we intend to continue with the witness's
10 Can we please bring the witness in. We need to go into closed
11 session for that.
12 [Closed session]
21 [Open Session]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I should alert you, Ms. Moeller, to two
23 difficulties that I have about the evidence we heard yesterday. I cannot
24 find on my atlas a place called Smolice -- Smolnica, rather. I can find
25 Smolice, but I can't find Smolnica. And, secondly, it wasn't clear to me
1 what dates we were dealing with when we heard evidence about the killing
2 by the person called Zemunac.
3 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honour. I will try to clear that up
4 today. May I continue?
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
6 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
7 WITNESS: WITNESS K89 [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Ms. Moeller: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Witness.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Yesterday, we left off when you were telling the Trial Chamber
13 about the killing in which this person nicknamed Zemunac was involved.
14 Can you tell the Court when this killing approximately happened, when did
15 you observe that?
16 A. Yes. It was when we were in the villages around Orahovac, after
17 the 24th of March, after the NATO air-strikes had begun.
18 Q. And do you know in which month it was?
19 A. March, but after the 24th.
20 Q. I'm --
21 A. 1999.
22 Q. I'm now referring to the killing incident itself.
23 A. It was in late March, maybe after some ten days of having been in
24 the villages around Orahovac.
25 Q. And just to clarify, again, how long altogether did you stay in
1 the Orahovac area and participate in searches, as you described yesterday?
2 MR. LUKIC: Asked and answered, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the answer, Mr. Lukic? 20 to 23 days?
4 MR. LUKIC: That's right, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 MS. MOELLER: I'll move on then.
7 Q. Yesterday, Judge Bonomy asked you whether you saw killings happen
8 only on this one occasion or on any others, and you said that: "I didn't
9 see that happening, that they would wear these uniforms, put them on and
10 be killed, but another time I saw a group who were killed."
11 Can you explain what you meant by that because it is a bit
13 A. Yes, I didn't see them being killed, or being dressed, uh...
15 I saw another group of people who had been killed.
16 Q. And when, approximately, was that?
17 A. I don't understand the question. Do you mean when was it that I
18 saw this other group?
19 Q. Yes, exactly.
20 A. Yes. I saw the other group as we were retreating from, uh,
21 when we were at Zub by the ambush, when we were on patrol -actually it
22 wasnít our patrol but, uh, another patrol,
23 and thatís where I saw eight people, eight victims.
24 Q. And when were you at Zub, during which period of time?
25 A. We returned sometime in April, around the 10th or the 12th of
1 April of 1999.
2 Q. And by "returned," you mean going -- returning where?
3 A. We returned from the villages around Orahovac to our positions at
5 Q. And then how long did you stay at Zub?
6 A. All the way to the end when there was an agreement reached and a
7 truce announced between the armies when something had been signed.
8 Q. Do you know which month that was?
9 A. I think the agreement was in June. In June, we returned from
10 there to Leskovac. At Medvedja and Medani, we were at a certain school.
11 Q. Okay. These eight bodies, were they men or women?
12 A. Yes. They were men and then elderly women. Everyone else was
14 Q. And how were they dressed?
15 A. Civilians.
16 Q. And what happened to them?
17 A. I don't know exactly what happened to them. It is said that they
18 encountered some VJ soldiers, that they met a regular patrol, and that
19 they refused to stop. After that, they were shot, but I don't know the
20 exact reason why they were killed.
21 Q. And how did you come to know this background?
22 A. We learned that from our superior, from a commander.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: A moment ago you said there was an ambush and a
24 patrol was attacked, and then there were eight bodies. Now, was there an
25 ambush of the patrol -- of the Serb patrol?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, why did you say that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Army of Yugoslavia
4 was patrolling there and that they set up an ambush, but it wasn't our
5 unit that was there, the 120 mortar unit. We were around Zub. We set up
6 an ambush there, and that patrol was somewhere else. And they came across
7 another patrol, not our patrol, but the Army of Yugoslavia patrol who had
8 been there.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that passage certainly needs to be revisited
10 by the translation unit and the position clarified, because it gives the
11 impression of an attack upon the VJ patrol.
12 So, Mr. Haider, would you arrange for that to be obtained. Since
13 I can't work LiveNote this morning, I can't go back to the exact page
14 reference, but it's part of -- it may be the end of page 5 going into page
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's page 5, line 15, the particular
17 paragraph you're referring to; and also just above that, page 5, line 3,
18 there's an indication that they were wearing KLA uniforms but he didn't
19 see them put on them. So it is very confusing.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. So that whole passage on -- the whole of page
21 15 [sic] needs to be translated for us again, and the recording of the
22 witness's actual words revisited and translated. Thank you.
23 Yes, Ms. Moeller.
24 MS. MOELLER:
25 Q. Did you receive any orders from commanding officers with regard to
1 these eight bodies?
4 ambush or that patrol and to put them on trucks.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue.
7 MS. MOELLER:
8 Q. Witness, from here on when I ask you about commanding officers,
9 could you not mention their names before I explicitly ask you to name the
10 name, please. Do you understand that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever receive any further orders with regard to
13 other bodies in the field?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And which were these orders? And don't say who gave them at this
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What were you ordered to do?
19 A. It was when we were in the surroundings of the village of
20 Orahovac. There we were given an order that two soldiers go to report to
21 a superior there. Some bodies were supposed to be loaded on to trucks,
22 some of them were in plastic bags, some were without, and they wore
23 civilian clothing.
24 Q. And how many bodies are we talking about?
25 A. I don't know exactly, around 20. When I arrived there, some of
1 the bodies had already been loaded on to trucks. There were around 20. I
2 don't know exactly.
3 Q. And what happened to the bodies then?
4 A. They were put on the trucks, and there was an armoured vehicle and
5 there was seven or eight of us in that vehicle. We secured and escorted
6 the truck all the way to the power-plant at Obilic.
7 Q. And where is that, Obilic?
8 A. I don't know exactly. I think it is -- it comes after Pristina.
9 I don't know exactly. It was a long time ago.
10 Q. And --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the connection between the eight bodies you
12 mentioned a little while ago at the ambush and the 20 bodies that we now
13 have in your evidence?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no connection between the 20
15 and the eight. I don't know whether they were also transported there. I
16 know about these 20. I don't know about the eight bodies.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: So these are all other bodies, as was posed in
18 Ms. Moeller's question. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MS. MOELLER:
21 Q. And at the power-plant at Obilic, what happened to the bodies
23 A. I don't know exactly. We unloaded them in front of the
24 power-plant. There was some soldiers there and civilians. I don't know
25 whether they were employees of the plant. In any case, I don't know what
1 they did with the bodies. We left them there and returned.
2 MS. MOELLER: Can we go into private session for one question that
3 may help identify the witness?
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 MS. MOELLER:
22 Q. Yes. With regard to the searches in the Orahovac area we talked
23 about yesterday, did you see any burning of houses during these searches?
24 A. There were houses burning, but they were not destroyed totally.
25 They were just burning.
1 Q. And did you see how it came about that they were burning?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Were you ever --
4 MS. MOELLER: Sorry, Your Honours, I see Mr. Cepic on his feet.
5 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: If you allow me to say, I think that in this
8 translation about previous sentence of which witness said I think that
9 something is missing, just couple words, probably one or two words. If I
10 can translate, he testified that he saw just a couple houses, that they
11 were burning, so it is a little bit different than in the transcript.
12 This is line 21, page 10 -- 20.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Witness, when you were referring to seeing houses
14 burning, did you say anything about the number of houses you saw burning?
15 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller, you might wish to clarify that.
18 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
19 Q. You said, yesterday, you went through a couple of villages during
20 these searches. In how many villages did you see houses burning?
21 A. I don't know exactly in how many villages. Well, houses were not
22 burning in each and every village. It was here and there; then we would
23 be told there was a lot of ammunition found at that house or it was used
24 by the KLA, and that's why it was set on fire.
25 There was no arson just like that, but there was always some
1 justification that there were uniforms there or that those houses were
2 used as shelters or quarters, and that's why they were burned.
3 Q. And who told you about these justifications? And don't say any
4 names, but just, generally, who would tell you about these justifications,
5 as you call them?
6 A. Yes. That's what we were told by the commander of the 1st
7 Platoon, who was our superior officer in the 1st Platoon. He told us that
8 this had been the reason.
9 Q. Were you, yourself, ever ordered to burn a house?
10 A. Yes. I was on one occasion, but this was not in the vicinity of
11 Orahovac, but some ten days before we withdrew from Kosovo in Zub.
12 Q. And --
13 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, I think I would like to go into
14 private session for the details for security reasons.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
16 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 MS. MOELLER:
11 Q. During your time in Orahovac or later in Zub, did you notice any
12 looting going on?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was looted?
15 A. Well, I don't know what they took from the houses, what] They put
16 in their pockets, but I know that they took tractors, cars, trucks.
17 That's what I was able to see.
18 Q. And where did you see that?
19 A. As we withdrew our unit in the vicinity of Orahovac, there were
20 some civilian cars because the licence plates were not those of the
21 Yugoslav Army but the civilian licence plates, Orahovac, Djakovica licence
22 plates. So it's possible that those cars were the property of some of the
23 officers, but at any rate they went with us as we withdrew.
24 Q. Who was driving these cars?
25 A. Well, I don't know because the soldiers couldn't see [as
1 interpreted] that. We were always on trucks. It's possible that those
2 were soldiers, but it is unlikely. I assume that these would be our
3 commanding officers, our superiors.
4 Q. And when you -- when the units withdrew from Kosovo in June --
5 MR. CEPIC: Excuse me.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: I do apologise, but I think we have again problem in
8 transcript. Line 21, I think that the witness said: Because the soldiers
9 couldn't "do" that, not "see" that.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: It makes sense certainly.
11 Witness, you were asked who was driving the cars, and you said it
12 was -- you assumed it would be commanding officers, but just before that
13 you said: "I don't know because the soldiers couldn't" something, "we
14 were always on trucks." Now, did you say the soldiers couldn't do that or
15 couldn't see that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It couldn't have been the soldiers
17 because these soldiers were not allowed to drive cars.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 MS. MOELLER:
20 Q. I started asking you when you withdrew from Kosovo with the unit
21 in June 1999. Did you see any of these vehicles withdrawing out of Kosovo
22 with the army?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what kind of cars would that be mainly?
25 A. Well, Golf, Mercedes, not a Zastava car, newer vehicles, more
1 valuable vehicles, Golf, Mercedes, that type of vehicle.
2 Q. Witness K89, yesterday, when asked about killings, you testified
3 that there would be columns of refugees. Apart from the one incident we
4 talked about yesterday where men were separated from such a column and
5 killed, did you see any other refugee columns in 1999 while you were in
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And where did you see such column?
9 A. Well, I saw the columns afterwards when we were at Zub, because on
10 the road that they took we saw the columns. There was a large column,
11 mostly women, children, the elderly, the infirm. So that was the road
12 leading to Deva. That's where they passed through.
13 Q. And in which direction was this column heading?
14 A. Well, they were heading towards the border, towards Albania.
15 Q. And from which direction was it coming?
16 A. Well, I don't know whether they started from the villages or from
17 Djakovica, but at any point -- at any rate they were heading towards our
18 positions at Zub, and then Deva, and then further on.
19 Q. And were there any VJ units around when this convoy passed by?
20 A. Yes. There were units, infantry units there.
21 Q. What, if anything, did they do when the convoy came by?
22 A. Well, I didn't see anyone being killed. I saw them tear up the
23 documents of those who had their IDs. They didn't kill anyone, and they
24 would put the old ones, the infirm ones, on to the trucks and I think they
25 transported them all the way -- almost all the way up to the border with
2 Q. And the people that you saw tearing up the ID documents, what
3 uniforms did they wear?
4 A. Well, the uniforms of the Yugoslav Army, camouflage ones.
5 MS. MOELLER: Now I would like to call up Exhibit P615, page 21,
7 Q. Witness K89, we are now calling up a map of Kosovo, and I would
8 like you to have a look at a certain area on this map.
9 MS. MOELLER: Yes. Could we zoom in a little bit on the upper
10 right-hand side and go down -- no, go a little bit further. Yes. Thank
12 Q. Witness, do you see this map on your screen?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I would like you to have a look whether you can see some of the
15 villages that you mention in your testimony there; the village of Zub, can
16 you see that on the map?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. MOELLER: Can the usher maybe hand him a pen.
19 Q. Can you make a circle around Zub right on the screen, please, with
20 the pen.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Right. Now, can you also see Deva on this map?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you also mark Deva, please.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Now, do you see on this map the village that you called Smolnica?
2 A. Yes, I do. But it doesn't say "Smolnica," it says "Smolice."
3 That's not the way I had said it.
4 Q. Can you mark the village on the map as the one you thought you
5 were talking about in your testimony.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And in relation to where Deva and Zub are positioned, would that
8 be the right geographical area where Smolice, as you called it, would have
10 A. I didn't understand your question. Was it addressed to me?
11 Q. Yes, Witness. I will repeat it and try to be a bit clearer. The
12 distance between Deva, Zub, and the village you marked as Smolnica, would
13 that be approximately the distance you experienced when you moved between
14 the villages?
15 A. Well, probably yes. Yeah, it should be right. I'm not sure, but
16 I think that it should be.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour, I think I can't take this any further
19 here. Could we take an IC shot of this exhibit, please?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That would be ID115, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MS. MOELLER: And that would also be the end of my questions.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you complete it.
25 MS. MOELLER: Yes.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is page 22 the page that would show Orahovac?
2 MS. MOELLER: Yes, and it is also the page that shows Djakovica.
3 It's unfortunate that we can't have Djakovica and these villages on one
4 page in this atlas.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, can we have page 22 now, please. And
6 can we just have it a bit bigger. No, no. We need to have Orahovac more
7 or less in the centre. Slightly bigger.
8 Now, looking at that map, Witness K89, can you see there or point
9 out there - in other words, mark with your pen there - the villages or the
10 area where the villages were that you were in around Orahovac?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot mark the villages,
12 but they were here in the -- on the left-hand side, that's where the
13 villages were.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's what I want to know. Mark the area in which
15 you were in around Orahovac.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Unless you actually draw on the map, I can't see
20 what you're -- the area you're marking. If you could take a circle around
21 the area roughly.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know whether this was
23 the village, but I think we were here on the left-hand side, those
24 villages around here. I don't know whether this was the exact village,
25 but that would be the rough location where we were.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
2 Thank you, Ms. Moeller.
3 MS. MOELLER: Can we also take an IC shot of this, please?
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That would be IC116, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: The order, Mr. O'Sullivan.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour: General Lazarevic, General Ojdanic,
10 General Pavkovic, Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic, and General Lukic.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a moment.
12 The cross-examination should take us until -- we should certainly
13 be able to complete it before lunchtime, and it might be a bit earlier
14 than that if we were applying a strict -- involving ourselves in a strict
15 application of the guidelines we've given. So let's make that the outside
16 target for this cross-examination.
17 Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness K89, could you please turn in my
21 direction. I would like to introduce myself to you. My name is Djuro
22 Cepic. I'm one of the Defence attorneys representing General Lazarevic.
23 I will be asking you several questions, and I would like to answer as
24 clearly as possible to my questions.
25 And the questions that I will be requesting, I will strive to make
1 them as clear as possible and I would appreciate if you could give me very
2 clear and precise answers, preferably in the form of yes or no.
3 Is that clear?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You arrived in the barracks in Valjevo on the 18th of March,
6 together with all the other recruits; and in the first few weeks before
7 taking your oath and before being issued with a weapon, you take part in
8 some of the basic training where you learn about the basic rights and
9 obligations of the soldiers and all the other rights and obligations that
10 stem from our obligation to do the national service. Is that right?
11 A. Yes, but not all of them. What we were told -- we were taught
12 first about the use of the rifle.
13 Q. Witness, before taking the oath, you could not have been issued
14 with a weapon at all. You could not have been taught how to clean the
15 rifle. I'm asking you about the period before you took the oath.
16 You and all the other soldiers had training in the classroom about
17 the basic rights and obligations and basic legal regulations pertaining to
18 the national service. Is that right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Witness K89, thousands of soldiers had gone through the barracks
21 there, and they all underwent this training. How come that you are the
22 only one that never underwent this kind of training?
23 A. Yes. We did undergo some training, but not about our conduct but
24 we had training that pertained --
25 Q. Please go ahead.
1 A. We had training that pertained -- we were taught about ranks but
2 not conduct. Ranks, we were taught about rifles, various parts. But I
3 did not have any training as to my conduct in war, how to treat the
4 prisoners, and so on.
5 Q. After that you took your oath. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You were issued a weapon?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have a little pause between question
10 and answer interpreters ask.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, we're into the constant problem of
12 speaking immediately when the witness finishes. Please allow time for the
13 interpretation to catch up. I think you can now carry on.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] You spent two and a half months in training, in
16 fact two months and 20 days, and then a new generation of recruits arrive.
17 The soldiers from your generation received transfers and they're
18 transferred all over the -- Yugoslavia?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then sometime on the 8th of June, you are in Kosovo in the
21 Djakovica barracks. Is that right?
22 A. No. I don't know exactly whether this was June or late May.
23 That's something that I don't know.
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session just
25 for a very brief period of time? I have to ask a question that might be
1 taken in private session.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
3 Hold on.
4 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, in Djakovica, you were given your assignment, your
1 uniform, your weapon, and you were given the exact information as to what
2 unit you would be assigned to. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So you went to the camping area of your unit. You said this was
5 in the village of Sulani?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to
8 bring to the screen the Exhibit IC115. Thank you.
9 Q. Witness K89, could you please show me on this map the village of
11 A. I can't see it.
12 Q. What would you tell me if I were to put it to you that the village
13 of Sulani does not exist at all?
14 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps it's a mountain because there were a
15 couple of villages there. It's possible that such a village does not
16 exist, but the position where we were was called Sulani. And I simply
17 assumed that the village that was below our position was called Sulani.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness K89, do you hold a driver's licence?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did you get your driver's licence?
21 A. A couple of months ago.
22 Q. And you have a driver's licence only for cars. Is that correct?
23 A. No, for trucks, too.
24 Q. So you got it a couple of months ago?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Let me go back to your national service in Valjevo.
2 The soldiers in your generation and you yourself, you did go out into town
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was once a week?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. While you were in this base camp area, do you know
8 that in this period when you arrived there, that a soldier was killed in
9 the vicinity of that area, but he belonged to another Yugoslav Army unit
10 and a major was wounded and two other soldiers were wounded in fact. This
11 all happened in the vicinity of the village of Smolice?
12 A. No. I didn't know about that. I did know that a soldier had been
13 wounded by a mortar shell. It's possible what you're saying, but I didn't
14 know about that.
15 Q. It was a KLA mortar shell?
16 A. I don't know. I never asked questions about it, whether it was
17 our shell or a KLA shell. I can only presume that it was fired by the
18 KLA. He couldn't have hurt himself on -- or with his own shell.
19 Q. Did you also know that in June when you arrived at the base camp
20 area, in the area of nearby border post called --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In the area of the
22 nearby border post.
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].
24 Q. -- a large group of terrorists attempted to cross the border with
25 a large amount of weaponry and that there was an exchange of fire?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. For clarification, your unit was undergoing regular training
3 there, as well as securing the state border?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you underwent regular training there on how to handle mortars?
6 A. Not regular training but the use of mortars. The mortars were at
7 their positions, and we were told how to use the sights to measure
8 distances and so on and so forth.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 9165-9168 redacted. Private session
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Witness K89, yesterday you testified and described that in -- on
8 the morning of the 25th of March, 1999, with your mortar company headed by
9 your commander, you went towards Orahovac. Your unit set out after the
10 infantry unit because your mortar unit was supposed to support the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you moved on trucks?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you had your mortars hooked up to the trucks?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Throughout your stay in the environs of Orahovac, you didn't use
18 the mortars?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. Thank you. When executing assignments in the area of Orahovac,
21 you slept in those or on those trucks?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Your company commander would not allow you to sleep in the houses?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Your commander was tough, strict?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As regards searches of houses, once completed your company
3 commander would search the soldiers so as to be sure that no one had
4 stolen anything?
5 A. Yes, that is correct.
6 Q. Your commander acquainted the soldiers of your unit with the fact
7 that they were not allowed to conduct themselves improperly or steal?
8 A. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Did you know that in some other cases of other units -- did you
10 know that in some other units any soldiers were found having been stolen
12 A. I don't know of anyone stealing anything.
13 Q. Did you know that in your battalion there were over 20 criminal
14 reports submitted?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Your unit during that assignment moved some two to three
17 kilometres behind the infantry, as was prescribed by the rules on
19 A. We were closer to them.
20 Q. Was it one and a half to two kilometres, pursuant to the Rules of
22 A. It was much closer, not one or two kilometres, but perhaps 100 or
23 200 metres.
24 Q. If it was only 100 to 200 metres, you cannot execute your
25 assignment. What you said is illogical. Do you agree with me that it
1 doesn't make sense?
2 A. Perhaps according to the law and the rules we were supposed to do
3 that, but there was no need for us to be further away. Perhaps there was
4 no need for us to open fire; that's why we were close.
5 Q. Therefore, we can conclude that there was no firing, no action?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness K89, before this Chamber there was another
8 witness, a member of the police. He stated that the army in that area
9 never entered villages. Do you agree with his statement?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. As you stated yesterday, you stayed on that assignment for some 22
12 or 23 days?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you saw the person with the nickname of Zemunac firing at
15 some men, as you stated, that was in mid-April. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. You don't know where it was. All you know is that it
18 was in mid-April. You actually observed that from a distance of several
19 hundred metres. Am I correct in saying that?
20 A. No, not a hundred. Perhaps less. One could see it well. It may
21 have been 50 metres.
22 Q. This Zemunac person, as you call him, carried KLA uniforms with
24 A. No. He wore a VJ uniform.
25 Q. I didn't mean on him, but with him. He had those uniforms.
1 A. Whether he had them in his hands -- I don't think he could carry
2 so many uniforms. They were probably on a truck.
3 Q. You didn't see where the uniforms were?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You didn't see them put those uniforms on?
6 A. Yes. I saw them take the clothes off them and put the uniforms
8 Q. Sir, in your statement that I mentioned a while ago, in paragraph
9 28, you described this incident but you did not specify the unit that had
10 actually done that. You said that this had been done by a group that was
11 involved in the search. You didn't mention any perpetrator. You didn't
12 even mention any nicknames. Can you comment on this statement that I just
14 A. Well, I don't know who was the leader of this group. But this man
15 that I knew as Zemunac, he was in the infantry. Now, whether there was a
16 commanding officer there or not who had issued them orders to do that, I
17 don't know about that.
18 Q. How come in your statement you don't mention this nickname
20 A. Pardon?
21 Q. How come you did not mention this nickname Zemunac in your
23 A. I think I did. I think I did mention that.
24 Q. Let me read your statement in the paragraph 28 of your statement.
25 "I saw other groups involved in the searches that would separate
1 the men from the women and children and shoot the men. If they were
2 wearing civilian clothes, they would dress them in KLA uniforms. I do not
3 know where they got those uniforms from, but they were like green
4 camouflage jackets with the red KLA -- UCK patch on the arm. I saw one
5 man making a video recording of how the soldiers were dressing the bodies
6 in the UCK uniforms. I thought to shoot him but I did not and he ran
8 This is your statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. No mention is made of Zemunac, Witness K89?
11 A. Well, I think that at that time I was not asked who did the
12 killing. Had they asked me that, I would probably have included or
13 mentioned this, but nobody had asked me. This is why this is not
14 contained in the statement that I did not mention the man named Zemunac.
15 Q. You go on to say in your statement that the next paragraph, 29 --
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to put document
17 3D496 on the screen. This is the statement that I quoted a little while
18 ago. Could we zoom in on paragraph 29.
19 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours, is that in open session now and on the
20 open screen? I would not want it published.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: It apparently can only be seen in the courtroom,
23 Ms. Moeller.
24 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
25 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you see in front of you on the screen
2 your statement?
3 A. I see the statement, but I don't understand the language.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show the
5 witness his version of the statement in B/C/S, or perhaps I could just
6 give my hard copy to him.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I gather it's not in the system in B/C/S.
8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will just give him my
9 statement in B/C/S.
10 Q. [Interpretation] The bodies that were in the vicinity of Orahovac
11 that you had just described to us, you loaded them on to trucks and you
12 took them to Obilic. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. Perhaps it is not quite clear. This was not done twice
14 because once -- in fact, twice I loaded the bodies; once I went all the
15 way to Obilici, and the second time I just loaded the bodies on to the
16 trucks and I didn't go all the way to Obilici.
17 Q. So you loaded the bodies with the KLA insignia on to the trucks.
18 You drove them to Obilic. And as you state here, you drove the truck on
19 those two occasions to Obilic?
20 A. No. It was a misunderstanding. We, the soldiers, not I
21 personally. I did not personally drive the truck. We, the soldiers,
22 that's what I meant.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: And can I be clear about one other thing. Did --
24 or were any of these bodies wearing KLA uniform?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat his
1 answer; it was unclear.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That answer was not heard by the interpreter.
3 Could you repeat it, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the bodies that I loaded, none of
5 them had the uniforms. I don't know whether the bodies that were in the
6 plastic bags, whether they had uniforms on. But the bodies that I saw,
7 they did -- none of them had the KLA uniform on.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Your question assumed that, I think, Mr. Cepic, but
9 there's been no evidence so far that these bodies that were loaded on to
10 lorries were in KLA uniform.
11 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, if you allow me, I will try to clarify
12 that. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, after this incident in the location that you
14 cannot specify on the date that you cannot specify, those bodies that
15 remained on the ground were loaded on to trucks by you. Is that correct?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. So the previous situation that you described, the incident where
18 this man allegedly names Zemunac, this is something you just observed from
19 a distance and nothing else?
20 A. Yes, we observed. We were quite close. I don't know what they
21 did with the bodies. I don't know what they did.
22 Q. Who observed it?
23 A. It was our unit. We did not observe it per se. We were behind
24 them. Our unit was behind them in order to provide support to them. We
25 were in the state of readiness at the stand-by. If anything happened, we
1 were there to give them support. It was not our task to observe anything.
2 We were just standing there.
3 Q. So it was your task to give them support from a distance. I mean
4 give support to certain units. Is that correct?
5 A. Well, we were not told this was our task. We were standing there
6 because they were moving ahead of us, and we stood there to wait. Now,
7 whether we waited for a task to be issued to us, I don't know; but at any
8 rate that's where we were, that's where we were and that's where we
10 Q. Witness, is it your testimony today that your unit was moving
11 immediately behind the infantry?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you're saying something that would be contrary to the task, the
14 objective, and the logic, the very logic, of the engagement of your unit?
15 A. Well, I don't know what the situation is, how this situation
16 should be handled in peacetime, but I know that we were in wartime.
17 That's how we did that. Perhaps if it had been in peacetime, we would
18 probably have held some distance in accordance with the Rules of Service.
19 But this was a state of war and this is how we did it.
20 Q. Let me go back to the drives to Obilic. In this paragraph of your
21 statement that I quoted, that would be paragraph 29, you say the
23 "On at least two occasions, I assisted loading the bodies of the
24 men who were shot on to military lorries and I drove them to the power
25 station behind Pristina called Obilic."
1 So you drove the trucks?
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, this has been asked and answered twice
4 already. The witness has made it clear what he did. It's not consistent
5 with the statement and that's something you can say later, but you can't
6 keep going over the same ground in the circumstances where, in fact, I've
7 overestimated the time you ought to take for this cross-examination.
8 And it should actually finish half an hour before the lunchtime
9 session finishes, so bear that in mind and try and concentrate on new
10 questions rather than over the same territory.
11 MR. CEPIC: I understood. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, you were executing this task sometime from mid-April and then
13 you went back to Zub?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All those incidents that occurred, that you described, they
16 happened in mid-April. Is that correct?
17 A. Well, the incidents that I saw in the vicinity of Orahovac, they
18 were in mid-April or late April, that would be the rough time-period.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have Defence document
21 5D87 on our screens. Could we zoom in on paragraph 11, please.
22 Could we go into private session, please.
23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
24 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour, if --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
1 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages9179-9183 redacted. Private session
1 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please wait until the curtains are up.
15 Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness K89, we are on the topic of tearing up of documents. You
19 said that you saw that on the road to Deva?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Therefore, the witnesses [as interpreted] passed through Deva on
22 their way to Albania -- well, maybe through Deva or just close to it? I
23 don't know exactly.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: I assume you're referring to the refugees?
25 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. K89, we are talking about the refugees?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. It was on the way to Deva or adjacent to it. What if I told you
6 that Deva is the last location that there are no other ways of reaching
7 the Albanian border?
8 A. I know it is the last point, but we were closer to Zub. That road
9 takes you somewhere, I don't know whether it ends at Deva.
10 Q. So you say there is a road going further up. Is that towards the
12 A. Yes. I don't know whether it stops at Deva or it passes by it
13 close to the border post or to the left or to the right. I don't know.
14 Q. Did you participate in that?
15 A. No. I wasn't tearing up any documents. It wasn't our position
16 there. We were just patrolling there during day-time.
17 Q. I would kindly ask you to provide short answers so as to be able
18 to move as quickly as we can.
19 A. Certainly.
20 Q. Nobody from your unit was tearing up any documents. Is that your
22 A. I don't know if anyone else participated, but I don't think anyone
23 from my unit did.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness K89, before this Chamber we heard a number of
25 witnesses, as well as a number of witnesses who fled via that border post
1 just below Zub. Not a single one of them stated that any army member tore
2 up their documents; not a single Prosecution witness stated that, that the
3 army was tearing up documents.
4 A. I don't know exactly. I saw people tearing up documents. I don't
5 know what people did individually; however, there was tearing up of
7 Q. As a matter of fact, you are not certain that this was done by the
9 A. The army was there, the infantry. They were escorting them. I
10 don't know why they were escorting them.
11 Q. Did you know that there were minefields next to the road and that
12 the soldiers were actually directing the civilians so as to avoid anyone
13 being hurt in the minefields?
14 A. I know there were minefields, but where we were patrolling; and at
15 our positions, there were none. I know that some of the other areas were
17 Q. Did you know that the soldiers were trying to help the refugees,
18 assist the infirm, and elderly, and they transported them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Soldiers even gave cookies and juices to children, whatever they
21 had at hand?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you, Witness K89. We can conclude, therefore, that the army
24 behaved fairly towards the civilians?
25 A. On average, yes.
1 Q. Thank you?
2 MS. MOELLER: Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
4 MS. MOELLER: The witness cannot conclude on the conduct of the
5 whole army. He can only say what he saw himself and how he saw people in
6 this vision behave.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I agree. And he's also made it clear what he
8 saw the soldiers doing, so it's for us to reach conclusions.
9 Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Then you mentioned houses being aflame. You stated who ordered
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
14 session briefly.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 9188-9197 redacted. Private session
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. My next question refers to the period before the 24th of March
21 when you were at Zub. In your statement and during your testimony here,
22 you said that when you were at Zub you targeted Smolice. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would I be correct in saying that the range of the mortar you
25 you're working with is 6.300 metres with the sixth charge and about five
1 and a half kilometres with the fifth charge?
2 A. It's possible.
3 Q. Would I be correct in saying that you mostly used the fifth charge
4 for firing?
5 A. Well, on the average, five or six charges.
6 Q. If I were to tell you that Smolice is more than nine kilometres
7 away from Zub as the crow flies, how can you explain the fact that you say
8 you fired at Smolice from Zub?
9 A. I said that we fired in the direction of Smolice. That's a
10 village. I don't know. But that's what I heard, that Smolice was being
11 targeted. I don't know whether it was into the centre of the village or a
12 little before the village or beyond the village. I don't know.
13 Q. Would I be correct in saying that while you were at Zub, you had
14 very little contact -- or, in fact, did you have any contact with
15 civilians while you were at Zub?
16 A. Well, not many contacts, no.
17 Q. Would I be correct in saying that while you were at Zub - and that
18 was before the start of the war - it was relatively quiet around your
20 A. For the most part it was quiet. There was trouble at the border
21 posts and you could hear that from a distance, but it didn't happen where
22 we were.
23 Q. Did you see any refugees before the beginning of the NATO
25 A. No.
1 Q. How then do you explain the fact that an officer, whose name I
2 will not repeat, ordered you on the 24th to tear up people's documents
3 when there were no refugees at that time?
4 A. On the 24th, NATO air-strikes began. The 25th, that is, there
5 were no refugees there.
6 Q. As I understood you, you did not see any refugees before the 24th,
7 and you did not see any on the 24th and 25th either?
8 A. After that I saw refugees; but then, when NATO began on the
9 evening of the 24th, we didn't see any refugees. I did see some later.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the basis for that question about an order
11 to tear up people's documents? Was that in his evidence earlier?
12 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: When was that?
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It's in his statement --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. Is it in the evidence in this case,
16 because for the moment I don't recollect this? He said the documents were
17 torn up; that's not the issue. The issue is he being ordered to tear them
18 up, because he's been quite clear so far that his unit didn't tear up any
19 documents. It was other VJ units that he saw doing that.
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour, but in
21 his statement --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I haven't got his statement, Mr. Visnjic, so
23 there's no basis for that.
24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] It's 3D --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not being presented as part of the Prosecution
1 evidence here --
2 MS. MOELLER: Your Honours.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry.
4 MS. MOELLER: May I assist. I have a transcript reference where
5 the witness first talked about the orders he received, and this is page
6 9124. And he said -- he told us that not a single Albanian ear was to
7 remain in Kosovo and that their identification papers were to be torn so
8 as to prevent them from coming back. He did not refer to refugees
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And that conversation was when?
11 MS. MOELLER: It's at the same transcript page. I asked him
12 whether he received the specific order before he was redeployed.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. What's the date, though, that he says this
15 MS. MOELLER: We were talking about his redeployment to Orahovac,
16 which was the 24th of March. In line 14 he says: "We were until the 24th
17 of March when NATO begun its air-strikes." And then I asked: "At this
18 point did you and other soldiers with you receive specific orders?"
19 That's line 16. So this would be the time-frame.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: It's simply I haven't noted that particular part.
21 I'm sorry about that, Mr. Visnjic. It's obviously my mistake.
22 Please carry on.
23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Witness K89, bearing in mind what you testified about here, who
25 could this order issued by your commanding officer refer to, if at that
1 time there were no refugees?
2 A. Well, I don't know. I couldn't really understand. The order was
3 as it was. I don't know whether they knew that there would be refugees.
4 I couldn't really get into his mind and --
5 Q. Are you sure that you remember correctly what he said?
6 A. Yes, I'm sure. Perhaps I have missed -- I may have missed a
7 couple of words. But I know that on the 25th, in the morning of the 25th,
8 that was what he said.
9 Q. If I understand you correctly, your explanation is that they
10 assumed that there would be refugees. Am I right?
11 A. I assumed that they assumed that because NATO carried out
12 air-strikes and people were fleeing, probably not because of the army but
13 because --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Moeller.
15 MS. MOELLER: I would like to know where the witness explained
16 that they assumed that there would be refugees, and what -- the question
17 is now asking him to speculate about what another person may have meant by
18 saying something.
19 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Visnjic.
21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] If I may respond, this is at this
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Not yet, please.
24 Yes, Mr. Visnjic.
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes -- no, what is it you want to say?
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that that is at page
3 62. I hope the transcript hasn't gone up. "I don't know whether they
4 knew that there would be refugees."
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. There's no objection to that question.
6 Please carry on.
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness K89, let us now move on to another topic. So my question
9 to you was: "You assume that -- your explanation is that they assumed
10 that there would be refugees. Am I right?" And your answer was not
11 completed, so could you please complete it.
12 A. Well, probably. I don't know what they thought, whether there
13 would be some refugees. It is my opinion that there would be refugees,
14 given that the NATO air-strikes and people would have to flee and take
15 cover. I don't know what he may or may not have thought, but this is what
16 I thought and probably this was what it was.
17 Q. Let us now go back to the incident where those people were killed
18 and other uniform -- and uniforms were put on them. You explained to us
19 that this happened in the vicinity of Orahovac. My question to you is
20 whether you can describe in some detail the terrain in this area. Was
21 there anything peculiar there?
22 A. Well, I -- nothing really sticks in my mind. I didn't -- don't
23 remember the village. I can't really give you more details about where we
24 were. It must have been to the left of Orahovac, I assume, but I'm not
25 sure of that either. I'm not sure of the actual village.
1 Q. Did you see men being separated from the women and children?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. How long did this whole incident take?
4 A. I don't know how long it took precisely. I don't know whether the
5 column came from this village or some other village. It was a refugee
6 column, and then these people were separated. It didn't take
7 long. At first I didn't know why they were separating them.
8 Q. This is a little bit confusing. Let me ask you this: How many
9 people were there in this crowd from where people were being separated?
10 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't count them. I don't know how many
11 precisely. It was a large group of people, women, men, maybe 200. I
12 don't know how many of them there were.
13 Q. Did all -- were all men separated?
14 A. Well, some men did remain in the big group. Whether they were the
15 elderly people or whether they knew that they had taken part in something
16 or whether they had some insignia identifying them as being part of the
17 military, I don't know.
18 Q. How far away were you from the site of this incident?
19 A. Well, I don't know --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: That question has already been asked, and it's been
21 answered before.
22 MR. VISNJIC: Right, Your Honour, but I will --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it you're assuming that the remaining 15
24 minutes will be sufficient for everyone else's cross-examination, and the
25 fact that you're going over something that has already been dealt with in
1 cross-examination is a luxury you have the time to do.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I will ask the following
3 question then.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't doubt that this is an important incident,
5 but I don't think that really much thought has been given to how to deal
6 with the cross-examination of this witness within the time available.
7 MR. VISNJIC: Okay, Your Honour, I will try to do it on shorter
9 JUDGE BONOMY: It may not be your fault. I'm just wanting you to
10 make sure you're conscious of everyone's interests in this.
11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] 3D495. That's a Defence exhibit.
12 Can it just be at stand-by. We don't need to show it to the witness yet.
13 Q. Is it true, Witness K89, that you remained in the Orahovac area
14 from the 25th of March until the 2nd of April, 1999, which would be a
15 total of nine days?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Is it true that you remained in the Orahovac area, that you were
18 there with two trucks. In addition to the crews, those trucks were used
19 to transport the equipment and the weapons for the mortars?
20 A. There were three trucks or four.
21 Q. Is it true that while you were in the Orahovac area, that you
22 operated as a support unit and that you did not open fire because there
23 were no requests from the battalion commander or the units that you
24 provided support to, to that effect?
25 A. Yes. We did not open fire, but we went about in order to be with
1 those units, in order to be able to provide support.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to move
3 into private session now, and I would like the witness to be shown Defence
4 Exhibit 3D495, page 7.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 9207-9218 redacted. Private session
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 MR. ACKERMAN:
2 Q. You've told us about firing your mortars in the direction of the
3 village of Smolice; and at one point your, commander mentioned to you that
4 you had actually targeted a mosque there. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And another thing that you were given to understand was that
7 Smolice was a KLA stronghold and that --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- you were told that that mosque was being used as a sniper post,
10 weren't you?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Now, did you ever actually go to Smolice and see that village?
13 A. No, not into the village itself actually. We went to fetch water
14 with a tank nearby.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. ACKERMAN:
18 Q. Could you see the village? Could you tell whether or not there
19 was a mosque there?
20 A. When I saw it, you couldn't see a mosque. It would have been
21 already destroyed if it had been the target, as the commander said.
22 Q. Could it be possible that Smolice is a Catholic village and it had
23 no mosque?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Now, one thing that I'm just curious about in your statement, and
1 it could be an error of some sort. But in paragraph 22 of your statement,
2 you talk about driving from Sulani to Zub. And you talk about driving for
3 five or six hours to get from Sulani to Zub. Is that true?
4 A. No, it wasn't that far. It was five or six kilometres. I wasn't
5 talking about hours. There may be an error here.
6 Q. That's clearly the case. Thank you.
7 This shelling by mortar, this shooting by mortar, in the direction
8 of this village of Smolice, that went on for four or five months, did it?
9 A. I don't know when we went to Sulani. We didn't do much firing.
10 The firing was when we were at -- was before. We would have a day off.
11 It was gone for a few days. It would all depend on the situation and on
12 the support the infantry needed.
13 Q. But this -- this business of firing on Smolice and assisting the
14 infantry with regard to Smolice, I think you said went on for four or five
15 months. Isn't that the case, off and on?
16 A. Yes. Yes, it did last a long time. We were at the positions for
17 a long time. Most of the time was at -- at Kosovo was at Sulani, Zub. We
18 stayed at Zub for three, four, five months, or at Sulani we could have
19 been for four months. And those were the positions we held.
20 Q. All right. I want to go on to something else now. In paragraph
21 32 of your statement you -- you're talking about near the end when you're
22 getting ready to withdraw. You said: "When we eventually withdrew, some
23 people wanted to burn the villages."
24 Now, when you say "some people wanted to burn the villages," what
25 people are you talking about?
1 A. I don't know their names. We had a shed of sorts, and we had to
2 cover our tracks and burn it.
3 Q. Well, you're not one of the people that wanted to burn house as
4 you were withdrawing, are you?
5 A. I didn't want to do that. About ten days before the withdrawal, I
6 had orders. I didn't want to set fire to houses, no.
7 Q. In fact, you told us about being issued an order at one point to
8 burn a house, and you didn't carry out that order. After the person who
9 had issued had left, your commander did not require you to follow that
10 order, did he?
11 A. No, he didn't.
12 Q. Now, when you say these people wanted to burn the villages, the
13 officers that were with you at that point wouldn't permit that to happen,
14 would they?
15 A. Our commander wouldn't permit it, and we ourselves didn't want to
16 do it. There were NATO forces. We were just an escort. We didn't even
17 try to set fire to anything.
18 Q. In your statement during your supplementary visit with the
19 Prosecutor, you said this: "During the bombing, soldiers, mostly reserve
20 units, were often drunk when going through villages looting. They were
21 not in close contact with the officers and, therefore, became slack in
22 their discipline and appearance."
23 I take it it's your view that if they had been in close contact
24 with the officers, the officers would have prevented this from happening;
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And just one final question. You talk about some things you've
3 observed; these shootings that you observed and the tearing of documents
4 that you observed. Did you actually make any reports of these
5 observations to your higher officers and tell them what you had seen so
6 that they would deal with it?
7 A. I didn't personally make any reports because it wasn't done by
8 someone from my company. If it had been, I might have reported it.
9 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: One thing I didn't understand there in your
11 evidence. You said that your commander wouldn't permit the burning of
12 villages. "We ourselves didn't want to do it. There were NATO forces.
13 We were just an escort." What did you mean that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if I was very precise
15 in my answer. (redacted), did not allow us to burn or loot; and
16 had we wanted to do so, had any of our soldiers wanted to do so, we did
17 not dare. We couldn't have done it because we were under escort. We had
18 helicopter and aeroplane surveillance all the way as we pulled out towards
19 Serbia, as we pulled out from Kosovo.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 Mr. Fila and Mr. O'Sullivan have no questions.
22 Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. K89. My name is Branko
1 Lukic, and I will just try to clarify a few points with you. You gave a
2 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 23rd of January, 2006.
3 This statement was read out to you in a language you understand, and you
4 signed it as being accurate. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In paragraph 27 of this statement, you speak about a unit or a
7 group of people that you were told were Arkan's Tigers and you describe
8 them as follows.
9 "These groups -- there were also groups that I was told were from
10 Arkan's Tigers. These groups wore blue berets and a different sort of
11 uniform. Rather than the regular uniform that we wore, these other groups
12 wore one-piece boiler suits. They were all green camouflage but different
13 shades of green."
14 Those shades of green, were they lighter or darker than the
15 uniforms you wore?
16 A. They were a bit lighter than our uniforms. They were not the same
17 as our uniforms.
18 Q. So it was green but lighter than your uniforms?
19 A. Well, they were like blue, but there were also some shades of
20 green. They were lighter in colour than the camouflage uniforms that we
21 wore, because they also had this boiler suit-type uniforms with a jacket
22 worn over it.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you have any direct contacts with them, or did you
24 base your knowledge that those were Arkan's Tigers on what other people
25 told you?
1 A. I had no direct contacts with them. A colleague of mine told
2 me -- I asked, "Why are they wearing this -- these uniforms?" And he
3 said, "Those are Arkan's Tigers." That's what they were called. Perhaps
4 those were soldiers that were better dressed than we rank-and-file
5 soldiers, but that's what he told me. That's how I knew that those were
6 those people.
7 Q. [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters did not get the question because
9 the microphone was not on.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I have to apologise. I have to ask you this question again
12 because I had turned off my microphone. You don't know who was their
13 commander, right?
14 A. No, I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
17 Ms. Moeller, do you have re-examination?
18 MS. MOELLER: Yes, I do have some questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that will have to be after lunchtime.
20 We need another break, K89, and the usher will take you from the
21 court in a moment.
22 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: The transcript, I hope, should reflect what I
12 actually said that she has to deal with a very urgent personal matter.
13 Ms. Moeller.
14 MS. MOELLER: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Re-examination by Ms. Moeller
16 Q. Witness K89, Mr. Cepic at the beginning of the cross-examination
17 asked you about whether the soldiers could or would go to town once a week
18 during their national military service.
19 Now, in 1999, after the 24th of March while you were in the
20 Orahovac area, could you actually do that, go to town once a week?
21 A. I have to say, the question is not quite clear to me.
22 Q. Do you recall Mr. Cepic asking you whether during your military
23 training soldiers would go to town once a week?
24 JUDGE BONOMY: That's when he was in Valjevo, I think.
25 MS. MOELLER: I think it wasn't specified. It's transcript page
1 23, line 25.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I've noted in my note that it related to
3 Valjevo, but I may be wrong. Which page did you say it was? 23.
4 MS. MOELLER: 23 and line -- page 23, line 21. Okay. Yes. I'm
5 sorry, Your Honour. Yes, it says "Valjevo." I withdraw the question.
6 Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, Mr. Cepic also talked about 20 criminal reports that were
8 filed with regard to the units you were deployed in. Now, during your
9 time in Kosovo in 1999, did you ever see any soldier or any other person
10 in the field being disciplined or punished or taken out of any combat
12 A. I personally did not see or hear about anyone being punished.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Cepic also asked you about -- he showed you a document
14 5D87, and he asked you about the 24th or 25th of March and your deployment
15 to Orahovac. Now, can you clarify, as that wasn't really clear, who went
16 at that time to Orahovac. Was it the whole company or was it part?
17 A. No, not the whole company, but just the 1st Platoon in the company
18 that had two mortars. The rest of the company remained in the positions
19 that we had been occupying before. So it was not the entire company that
20 left, less than half, one-third of the company in fact.
21 Q. Thank you. Then Mr. Cepic also talked with you about the convoy
22 that you saw passing by Deva, and he mentioned minefields being there and
23 asked you whether you knew about them. Now, do you know whether there
24 were any minefields close to where this convoy was passing by?
25 A. Well, in the location where we were, I didn't know whether there
1 were any minefields. But -- but we -- if it had been -- if there had been
2 minefields, we wouldn't have been able to move about. But I think maybe
3 along the border there were some mines laid, but in the area where we were
4 there were no mines.
5 Q. You also told Mr. Cepic that the infirm and elderly in this convoy
6 were transported by the VJ on vehicles. Which direction were they taken?
7 A. Well, they were taken further up from the position where we were.
8 I don't know whether they were taken right to the border or perhaps
9 somewhere else, but we were at Zub.
10 I don't know whether they were taken to Deva, because that was in
11 the direction that they were being taken. Whether they were left off at
12 Deva or whether they were taken even further away from there, I don't know
13 about that.
14 Q. Okay. Then there was some discussion about --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you go on with that question, just let the
16 record reflect that Judge Kamenova has now joined the Bench.
17 MS. MOELLER: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Cepic also asked you about the firing of charges with the
19 mortar, and that wasn't quite clear to me. It's transcript page 59, lines
20 14 to page 60. He asked you whether it was correct that you were working
21 mainly with the sixth charge and the fifth charge, and you said, "It's
22 possible." And then you said -- he asked: "Would I be correct in saying
23 that you mostly used the fifth charge for firing?" And you responded:
24 "Well, on average, five or six charges."
25 Would you explain to us what relation, if any, exists between
1 these charges and the distance you're firing at.
2 A. Well, there is a difference. I don't know what actually affects
3 the range, whether this depends on the shell; but, in fact, the most
4 important part of the shell would be the charge. A lot of things affect
5 the range. If you have a charge five or five charges then your range is
6 less than if you have six, but the shells were the same.
7 So I think the charges are the most important thing, but I did not
8 really have time to learn about this. I didn't undergo any training
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, during 1998 in the villages of Sulani and
11 Zub, were there any Kosovo Albanian civilians in these villages while the
12 army was in this area, too?
13 A. Well, I don't know. While we were at Sulani, there weren't any
14 near to us; but when we went down to get some water, there were civilians
15 there. There were no problems there, in fact. Everything just went as
17 MS. MOELLER: I have some last questions which I would like to
18 lead in private session, please.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 9230-9233 redacted. Private session
10 [Closed session]
11 Pages 9235-9258 redacted. Closed session
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution's next scheduled witness
13 is K90, K-9-0. Your Honour, I've sent an e-mail earlier this morning I
14 think to your Legal Officer and to the Defence. I'm requesting, if Your
15 Honours will grant my request, that he begin his evidence on Monday
16 morning. You're aware, Your Honours, of some of the difficulties we've
17 had in getting this witness to attend. He arrived in The Hague yesterday
18 sometime in the afternoon. I don't know what time he arrived here.
19 He was scheduled to appear at our office this morning at 9.30 for
20 proofing. When victims witnesses went to pick him up at the hotel, he
21 refused to come and says he hadn't slept or eaten for two days. I don't
22 know the particulars of that. They didn't want to try and physically
23 bring him to my office. We've had his statement and we agreed to meet him
24 tomorrow morning. I.
25 Have not met him we have had numerous discussions with him over
1 the past two or three months and my investigators have, but those they
2 have been dealing with logistics; with him coming here, talking about the
3 subpoena, talking about protective measures, talking about his reluctance
4 to appear. And I have not met him. I have not had one word with him.
5 In his statement, in the penultimate paragraph - I think I
6 mentioned that in the e-mail as well - he indicated he had seen and knew
7 of other incidents in Kosovo that he was willing to talk about. That's
8 one thing I wanted to explore with him. And I feel there will - assuming
9 he shows up tomorrow and actually speaks with me, and doesn't fold his
10 arms and refuse to speak - there will be a supplemental information.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the date of that, Mr. Hannis?
12 MR. HANNIS: 2002.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Nobody thought about trying to investigate it
14 between 2002 and now?
15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I -- I don't know the answer. I think
16 we assume -- I know when we selected him for the witness list, reading the
17 statement, we thought that this would be -- we didn't have any reason at
18 that time to believe that he wasn't going to come --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. No, I'm concerned about the additional
20 information he may have to provide. If nobody knows whether it's been
21 investigated -- rather, if anybody should know if it's been investigated,
22 it must be you.
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I want him for the evidence he's already
24 told us about in the statement; and, certainly, I expect that's the most
25 significant and most pertinent to our case. But based on other statements
1 sometimes when witnesses say they have to lot to tell, they really have
2 not much at all. And sometimes they actually do have things that are more
3 significant than anything they did say. I just don't know.
4 My estimated time for him, Your Honour, was three hours on direct.
5 So even if we brought him in cold tomorrow without having speaking with
6 him, there's a chance if I took three hours and Defence took three hours
7 we would go into next week. I understand the Prosecution may incur a
8 penalty for loss of time on Friday, but I think it will be a smoother
9 presentation if we proceed this way.
10 I can get the supplemental information over to the Defence and
11 have that prepared for them to digest for whatever it may raise.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 Mr. Zecevic, is there anything to be said by the Defence about
14 this suggestion that you have Friday off.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: We'll welcome that suggestion.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that's strenuously opposed?
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: What it would do, of course, would present you with
19 a golden opportunity to do some work on your agreed facts.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm afraid that Mr. Hannis will be proofing
21 the witness, so therefore I don't see -- we will definitely try, Your
22 Honours, but --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sure he's not the only person who can deal with
24 that issue.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: But I would expect him to be there.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
2 Well, Mr. Hannis --
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: -- you've recognised what's the possible
5 consequence of this. The clock is running. Exactly how it's going to be
6 taken into account we've already indicated at an earlier occasion will be
7 determined at a later stage. There may come a point when we actually
8 apply a sanction.
9 At the moment we simply give the yellow card warning that it's
10 running, and you can take it that some regard will be had to this loss of
11 time in due course and possibly to others. However, we will grant the
12 motion to adjourn until Monday. And on Monday we sit at 9.00 I think.
13 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour. I may be pushing my
14 luck, but I have one other request I wanted to make. I indicated to you I
15 would file my written submissions concerning the additional exhibits
16 pertaining to General Vasiljevic. I would like to ask your permission to
17 extend that to Monday as well.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Yes, that's in order in the
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: The redactions that you've asked about have been
22 dealt with meanwhile and an appropriate order has been signed -- or a
23 number of orders have been signed to deal with that.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you for that.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
1 We'll resume at 9.00 on Monday.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.27 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of
4 January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.