Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11823

1 Monday, 19 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, you have a matter you wish to raise.

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Just very

7 briefly.

8 The next witness after Mr. Phillips is Mr. Coo, and I wanted to

9 ask the Tribunal, bearing in mind that no decision has been made on the

10 scope of testimony of Mr. Coo, that regardless of when the decision is

11 made, the two give us notice, perhaps informally, about the gist of the

12 decision because our cross-examination expectations range between five

13 hours and five minutes depending on your decision. And I do believe that

14 we need this in order to be able to prepare documents for his testimony.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: You know which one we would prefer, Mr. Visnjic.

16 Mr. Ackerman has already suggested making written submissions

17 where we initially anticipated dealing with this matter orally. Can you

18 advance knowledge on that? Is there to be a written submission or are we

19 to deal with it orally?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: It was filed late last night. CLSS has it. I have

21 asked them to file it as quickly as possible this morning and that there

22 is some urgency with respect to it, so I think you'll have it by 10.30 at

23 least.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a joint submission?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand a number of think my colleagues are

Page 11824

1 going to join it, and I don't think there will be any other submissions.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: If the witness we are about to hear occupies the

3 day, then later in the day we'll look at that written submission and we

4 will probably be able to deal with it first thing tomorrow. If that means

5 a brief gap while you regroup, then that can be arranged.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think when you see it, Your Honour, you'll

7 realise that looking at it might be a fairly intensive proposition because

8 it is quite comprehensive. I think it's as much as 45 pages long.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I can tell you that we have spent a fairly

10 significant time already looking at the latest version, and we may find

11 that it may not take as long. We're not starting from square one.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm aware of that. That doesn't surprise me at

13 all.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, you also have a matter to raise?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unrelated to Mr. Coo,

16 and I don't want to interrupt you when the witness is already in the

17 courtroom, I have an objection to the use and tendering of Exhibit P632.

18 It's an order that is not signed, not stamped, and there is no reference

19 number.

20 I think that this document has not been authenticated at all.

21 It's been typed out. Nobody signed it. And at the beginning of the

22 document, where there is a place for the reference number, there is no

23 such number. So this is not in any logbook or anything. This is all I

24 have to say.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

Page 11825

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would like to join in. I fail to

2 understand the context in which two more documents are used, P928 and

3 P1000, because I simply fail to understand what these documents have to do

4 with the testimony of Michael Phillips. So this is all I have to say on

5 this topic. Thank you.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Carter, can you deal with these, please?

7 MS. CARTER: Respectfully, Your Honour, Mr. Stamp will be taking

8 the witness. However, I can respond to the question, however. P1000 is

9 making indications regarding the promotion of Pavkovic, and the use of the

10 VJ within the interior of Kosovo that seemed to be against many of the

11 statements made by the Serbian authorities to the KVM, amongst other

12 international organisations. So it would be focusing primarily on the

13 last few pages.

14 As to P928, specifically on page 14 of it, there are some

15 implications with regards to Sainovic's power over MUP forces and VJ

16 forces, and we're focusing on those two aspects. Each have been admitted

17 into evidence previously; however, those would be the two focal points we

18 would be addressing with this witness in the event that the testimony

19 requires it.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Does he have personal knowledge of the documents,

21 or are you simply looking at these as something that has a bearing on the

22 witness' evidence?

23 MS. CARTER: Your Honour, they will be used in much the same way

24 that P1000 was used with John Crosland when he testified, merely showing

25 what the document is indicating is consistent with what he was seeing both

Page 11826

1 in his meetings as well as what he saw on the ground.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And your comment with P632?

3 MS. CARTER: We're foregoing that document, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, I think we have to look at these in the

5 context in which they're raised in the course of examination of the

6 witness, and Mr. Bakrac and you both have the assurance that P632 will not

7 be used.

8 I think we can now invite the witness into court.

9 MR. STAMP: Before we do, I think, for the record, I should

10 indicate that the provider, the United States Government, is represented

11 here in court by Ms. Denise Manning and Mr. William Horrigan.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Phillips.

15 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

17 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed

18 before you.

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

20 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

21 and nothing but the truth


23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

24 I expect that you will be examined by a number of counsel here

25 today. I can't tell you for sure how many. All I can tell you is that

Page 11827

1 the first will be for the Prosecution, and that is Mr. Stamp.

2 Mr. Stamp.

3 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Examination by Mr. Stamp:

5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Phillips.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. Can you starting by stating your full name.

8 A. My name is Colonel Michael D. Phillips.

9 Q. Thanks. In November 1998, where were you posted and what was your

10 occupation then?

11 A. In November 1998, I was assigned at Pacific Command in Honolulu,

12 Hawaii, and on the 4th of November I reported to Pristina in Kosovo.

13 Q. In what capacity did you go to there?

14 A. Working directly for Ambassador William Walker.

15 Q. And what role did you have in relation to the work for Walker?

16 A. I was his Chief of Staff, which encompassed working with our

17 operations people in OSCE to develop operational strategies to deploy the

18 OSCE verifiers into the field.

19 Q. And can you tell us briefly what function that entailed?

20 A. It entailed planning, it entailed strategy, it entailed working

21 with the FRY and MUP liaison officers.

22 Q. Did you have to carry out functions that involved observing events

23 as they occurred on the ground?

24 A. Yes, sir, we did. We deployed to the field approximately three

25 days a week to four days a week on the average.

Page 11828

1 Q. How long were you posted in Kosovo in that capacity?

2 A. From the 4th of November to about the 20th of March, upon the OSCE

3 evacuation.

4 Q. And you said you deployed about three times a week to visit places

5 in the field. Places like where? Can you give us an idea of where you

6 would visit?

7 A. To Malisevo, to Suva Reka, Podujevo, various locations where there

8 was activity. Whether it be Serb activity, KLA activity, or MUP activity,

9 we would try to go to those locations and observe the situation on the

10 ground. And the purpose of those deployments was to look at the

11 compliance of the OSCE agreement signed by Mr. Holbrooke and

12 Mr. Milosevic -- or agreed to by Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. Milosevic. I don't

13 think Mr. Milosevic signed the agreement, actually.

14 MR. STAMP: Could we have a brief look at the Exhibit 658. This

15 is the agreement on the Kosovo Verification Mission.

16 Q. I won't trouble you to go through the document before us,

17 Mr. Phillips. We already have it in evidence. But could we just have a

18 look at a provision at page 2, the bottom of page 2, going on to page 3 in

19 the English version.

20 And the last sentence of page 2 indicates that: "The Kosovo

21 Verification Mission will travel throughout Kosovo to verify the

22 maintenance of -- of the cease-fire by all elements. It will investigate

23 a course of cease-fire violations. The mission personnel will have full

24 freedom of movement and access throughout Kosovo at all times."

25 Was that the purpose of your variation expeditions, observing

Page 11829

1 activities in the field in Kosovo?

2 A. That was one of the purposes, yes, sir.

3 Q. And were you allowed free access during your mission in Kosovo?

4 Did the situation remain the same at all times in terms of access?

5 A. Yes. We were not allowed unfettered access at all times.

6 Q. Can you explain that a little bit more. What was the situation

7 when you arrived there, and did it change?

8 A. When we arrived there, we generally had the freedom to move

9 throughout Kosovo with little restriction. As the mission progressed into

10 December 1998, January 1998, the restrictions on our travels became more

11 pronounced by roadblocks, and it was often briefed to us by the Serbian

12 police that the reason that there were roadblocks. And the reason we

13 could not go to a particular village that we wanted to go to was they

14 could not guarantee our safety, and therefore we were prohibited from

15 moving around with unfettered access.

16 Q. Did you hold meetings with representatives of the Serbian

17 government to try to iron out the issues that you had?

18 A. Yes, sir, we did, on several occasions, usually on a weekly basis.

19 We would meet at the government building in Pristina with Serb officials.

20 Q. Can you tell us who were the senior Serb officials that you would

21 meet with weekly?

22 A. Mr. Nicolae Sainovic, in Pristina; retired General Loncar;

23 Mr. Lukic, who --

24 Q. Which Mr. Lukic is that? What is his first name, do you know?

25 A. I don't recall his first name, but he presented himself as the

Page 11830

1 chief of the MUP or the commander of the MUP in Pristina. And there was

2 an interpreter or two; Mr. Skoric was also present; and there was an

3 interpreter, female, by the name of Gordana who was present.

4 Q. And on the KVM, who would be present at that meeting, apart from

5 yourself?

6 A. Ambassador Walker; DZ, who was our chief of operations, a British

7 two-star general. I refer to him as "DZ." I cannot pronounce his full

8 Polish surname. Ambassador Walker would have an interpreter with him, who

9 was also a Serbian individual. Once in awhile we'd have one of the

10 mission area coordination centre commanders with us from -- on occasion,

11 depending on the incident that we were seeking help from.

12 Q. You said that these parties met approximately once a week. Did

13 this frequency of meeting once a week continue right through your mission?

14 A. No, sir, they did not.

15 Q. Well, what was the change, if you can tell us, please.

16 A. As we moved through the Podujevo time period, the December 25th

17 period, 1998, up through the events leading to Racak in January, really

18 after the Racak event, our meetings on a weekly basis ceased at that

19 point. Leading up to that point, they were not comfortable meeting; they

20 were hostile in nature, uncooperative in nature; and they begin to break

21 apart from December 15th up through the middle of January.

22 Q. Now, in these meetings, about how many times was Mr. Sainovic

23 present?

24 A. He was present at each of the weekly meetings, with the exception

25 of the final meeting just before the Racak incident. We'd ask to meet

Page 11831

1 with him and could not contact him, and instead we met with Mr. Loncar.

2 He met with us late in the evening of, I think it was, the 15th of

3 January.

4 Q. And about how many meetings did you have with Mr. Lukic present?

5 A. He was present at most of the meetings; certainly up through, I

6 would say, all the meetings except the one at Racak on the 15th of

7 January.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: The event at Racak was on the 15th of January.

9 Does that affect your recollection of the date when you had this last

10 meeting?

11 THE WITNESS: No, sir.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying the meeting was after the event

13 occurred at Racak.

14 THE WITNESS: Racak occurred, and we asked to meet with

15 Mr. Sainovic and we were unable to meet with him, could not be located;

16 and, instead, we met late that evening on the 15th with Mr. Loncar.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: In the government building in Pristina?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Stamp.


22 Q. Can I take it the first meeting you had with Mr. Sainovic present.

23 How was he introduced?

24 A. He introduced himself as a personal representative of

25 Mr. Milosevic in Kosovo.

Page 11832

1 Q. And did he tell you anything about what his role was?

2 A. He would be involved in all the political aspects and assist the

3 OSCE in setting up its mission, and provide any assistance we needed to

4 get the mission up and running.

5 Q. And when you first met with Mr. Lukic, how was he introduced to

6 you?

7 A. That he was the personal representative of Mr. Milosevic in

8 Kosovo, as the chief of police, chief of the MUP.

9 Q. Now, you -- did you come to an assessment of who was in charge of

10 the Serb side that attended these meetings on the basis of what you

11 observed at these meetings?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Who was?

14 A. Mr. Sainovic.

15 Q. What did you observe that caused you to make this assessment?

16 A. Well, he was -- he sat at the table directly across from

17 Mr. Walker. He did most of the talking. He gave guidance and direction

18 to the other members on the other side of the table, to either lift a

19 roadblock, allow access to a barracks. I mean, he was clearly in charge

20 of providing guidance to his folks, left and right of him, at our

21 conference table. And also of note was that none of his team would sit

22 down until he sat down.

23 Q. Did he give you any undertakings in respect of how the KVM mission

24 would be treated?

25 A. Early on we were told that he was there to assist us in any way

Page 11833

1 that they could, and our very first meeting with him was quite good, I

2 thought. It was upbeat. We felt we were not going to meet any

3 cooperation problems or obstacles.

4 In fact, I remember Mr. Loncar and Mr. Walker had known each other

5 during their time in Eastern Slavonia. It was a very warm, friendly

6 relationship. Mr. Walker was certainly upbeat, having seen an old friend

7 again. And, of course, over time that turned out not to be the case.

8 Q. What do you mean when you say that, "turned out not to be the

9 case"?

10 A. Well, the relationship that Mr. Walker enjoyed with Mr. Loncar in

11 Eastern Slavonia, per Mr. Walker to me, was the same relationship that he

12 enjoyed in Kosovo with Mr. Loncar. It was more, I would say,

13 uncooperative in its nature. It was a very defensive sort of

14 relationship. Whenever the OSCE would bring issues to Mr. Loncar or to

15 Mr. Sainovic, it was throughout the period of the OSCE deployment, and it

16 just grew to be more uncooperative in its undertaking.

17 Q. Okay. You told us just now that you were told that Mr. Sainovic

18 was there to assist the KVM mission. Did he or anyone tell you what he

19 would or could do to assist the mission?

20 A. Well, we were told that in order to allow the OSCE mission to come

21 up to speed with the numbers, the number in the OSCE agreement was that

22 2.000 verifiers were going to be allowed to enter Kosovo; and to help

23 expedite the deployment of those vary fires, they were going to set up a

24 consulate office in Kosovo, Pristina proper, and that consulate never got

25 established, even at the direction of Mr. Milosevic who at one time

Page 11834

1 already said that it was established.

2 It slowed the process of the verifiers coming into the country to

3 execute the mission mandates of the agreement. So we did not find a

4 cooperative nature of establishing that consulate to allow the verifiers

5 to get in the country in a timely way.

6 Q. Was this the only situation, or were there other situations in

7 which you were told that something would be done to facilitate your

8 mission and it was not done?

9 A. There were minefields that we had asked to be cleared so our

10 verifiers could get to various locations in and around Kosovo, and we were

11 on occasion told that they would look at that and clear those minefields

12 so the safety of transportation to the verifiers could be guaranteed. The

13 minefields were never cleared; they were never located and provided to

14 us. We had asked for baseline information on the numbers of troops and

15 numbers of police, numbers of weapons. We were never provided that

16 baseline information. Just a couple of examples.

17 Q. Who did you ask for the baseline information and who told you that

18 the minefields would be cleared?

19 A. We asked for the baseline information from Mr. Sainovic, from

20 General Loncar, and from Mr. Milosevic himself, that we needed that

21 baseline information.

22 Q. And who told you that the minefields would be cleared?

23 A. Mr. Sainovic told us he would look into the minefields to see

24 about getting those located and/or cleared so we had unfettered access in

25 some of the regions. Our larger concern for the minefields being cleared

Page 11835

1 was to bring the displaced Albanians back out of the hills to -- and get

2 them back into their homes. So we were worried about the location of

3 those minefields that had been planted along mountain passes and down in

4 the valleys of Kosovo.

5 Q. The failure on the part of the Serbian government side to live up

6 to their undertakings or to cooperative, as you put it, based on your

7 knowledge and observations in the field, was the failure due to an

8 inability, a material inability, to effect those undertakings or to an

9 absence of will to do so?

10 A. I think it was an absence of will to do so. My observation of

11 that situation was the more obstacles that were provided that the OSCE had

12 to confront, it prohibited them from actually executing their mission and

13 not able to undergo the evaluation of compliance of the agreement. It was

14 an obstacle that was pretty obvious to us that was established to slow us

15 down, because the mission, once the agreement was signed, moved very fast

16 with fairly sizable numbers to bring them in.

17 You know, the other obstacle was getting our cars registered so we

18 could get the vehicles into Kosovo, to allow us to roam Kosovo with

19 relative freedom. We couldn't get those -- those cars in on time as

20 well. They were hindered at the border.

21 MR. STAMP: I've been asked to pause by the stenographer.

22 I would like us to bring up Exhibit 928.

23 Q. I would just like to look at one passage in Exhibit 928 and ask

24 you one question about it.

25 MR. STAMP: If we could go to page 14 of the English version.

Page 11836

1 Q. These are minutes of a meeting of the General Staff of the FRY.

2 Now, I take it that you would not know about these meetings or this

3 document. I just want to have a look at one part of the document and ask

4 you how, if it does, would that bear on your experience of dealing with

5 the Serbian government side, in particular Mr. Sainovic.

6 One general is commenting that --

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour.


9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have not heard the witness say

10 anything that might indicate that something like this should be put to

11 him. I have not heard anything like that from this witness, what you're

12 about to read now, that he said something in connection with this. If

13 this is the broad context, the witness should say something about it and

14 then this should be put to him to see if it corresponds to what the

15 witness said. But I have not heard the witness say anything of the kind

16 and for this reason I object.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, we've heard evidence from the witness

18 about a number of things and his assessment of what was going on. In

19 anticipation, no doubt, of the Defence case, Mr. Stamp now wishes to put a

20 part of this document to him to see how it fits with his experience on the

21 ground. We see no objection to that course of action and we shall allow

22 Mr. Stamp to proceed on that basis. Obviously, if he does something

23 inappropriate in the course of doing so, we will hear from you further.

24 Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

Page 11837

1 Q. We see here that one general is saying that, to quote: "I think

2 it is a priority to ensure that not even Sainovic or any other Sainovic

3 can solve these problems by lightly deciding to use the units," and he's

4 referring here to army units.

5 Does this accord or does this not accord with your assessment of

6 Mr. Sainovic's authority in relation to the use of army units in Kosovo?

7 A. I'm not sure I understand the question exactly.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Nor do I, I must say.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Please, Mr. Fila, that question is not related to

11 the evidence we've been hearing so far and I understand your objection. I

12 think Mr. Stamp has to formulate another question.

13 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour.

14 Q. You told us earlier that you observed in meetings where

15 Mr. Sainovic and Mr. Loncar were present that Mr. Sainovic would give

16 directives in respect to how the activities of the Serbian forces should

17 be conducted. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And having regard to the passage I just read from that document,

20 do you -- how does your experience of these meetings and what you saw

21 occurring on the ground --

22 MR. STAMP: The question is not yet asked.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: This is a question of --

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No. What you have just said was never

25 stated by the witness. Sorry.

Page 11838

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, the passage that you're highlighting is

2 open to interpretation and it's open to us to compare that passage with

3 what the witness has said. But asking the witness, in the way you are

4 intending to do at the moment, to comment on this passage as somehow or

5 other being equivalent or similar to his experience is not an appropriate

6 question. It's not for him to make that judgement. Already -- I think

7 you've already told us that this document is an exhibit in the case.

8 MR. STAMP: Yes, it is evidence, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: You're highlighting a passage that you wish us to

10 look at which we will in the context of the evidence the witness is

11 giving.

12 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour. I'll -- I'll move on.

13 Q. You spoke earlier about displaced persons. Can you tell us

14 briefly what was the situation in respect to the displaced persons that

15 you observed within Kosovo during your time there on the mission.

16 A. One example that I observed was in the village of Malisevo. It

17 was a village that had been literally completely burned to the ground, and

18 all of its residents had fled to the hills during the winter months. The

19 town was besieged with heavy MUP activity, and one of my jobs was to work

20 with the MUP and our liaison officers to try and get the MUP out of

21 Malisevo, so we could bring back displaced people that lived in that

22 village back to their homes before they froze to death in the mountains in

23 the winter.

24 And my recollection of that time-period, there were a couple

25 thousand displaced people as a result of that village being attacked and

Page 11839

1 burned and mortared. And one of our missions was to try and repopulate

2 that village and rebuild that village.

3 Q. When was this? When did you make your observation?

4 A. This would have been in November of 1998.

5 Q. Now, did you bring to the attention those observations to the

6 Serbian authorities?

7 A. Yes, sir, we did.

8 Q. To whom?

9 A. It was presented to Mr. Sainovic, and it was presented to

10 Mr. Milosevic, both in November.

11 Q. What was the response and attitude of Mr. Sainovic, in particular,

12 in respect to the issue of the IDPs?

13 A. My observation of the response was that I would tell you that they

14 were certainly concerned about the displaced people, but they also saw

15 them as terrorists and was a village that while it had no Serbs in it or

16 no Albanians in it was still heavily fortified with MUP police. And we

17 couldn't understand what they were there for, what they were protecting,

18 and what they were securing.

19 There was no reason for them to be there, and Mr. Sainovic, I

20 recollect, felt that it would be unsafe to pull the MUP out of there

21 because terrorists, in his words, would filter back into the village and

22 confront Serbian security forces once again. It was a key village, fairly

23 close to Pristina. I think for the Serbian security authorities probably

24 thought that that was a strategic location for them that needed to be

25 secured, which is why the MUP stayed there.

Page 11840

1 Q. Can you recall what, if anything, Mr. Sainovic said about the IDPs

2 in general in Kosovo?

3 A. I can't recall anything specific.

4 Q. In your discussions with Mr. Sainovic, what language was used?

5 Can you remember what language did he use?

6 A. He used both English and Serbian. He seemed to understand English

7 well, although he had an interpreter there, but he seemed to have an

8 understanding of English and spoke some English.

9 Q. Did he express himself in respect to the Albanian population in

10 general in Kosovo?

11 A. Well, he certainly wasn't pleased with their activities from a

12 perspective, as they referred to it, as terrorism --

13 Q. Albanian population, Albanian people, did he say anything in your

14 presence about Albanian people?

15 A. That they didn't belong in Kosovo that. It was the Serbian

16 homeland and the cradle of Serbian civilisation, and felt that it belonged

17 to the Serbian people and that the Albanian people had no desire to

18 co-exist with them.

19 Q. When did he say that?

20 A. In one of our meetings in the November -- November time-frame in

21 the early part of our mission.

22 Q. You were attended also at various meetings in which Mr. Lukic was

23 present. Based on what you observed, what was your assessment of his

24 authority in relation to the forces -- armed forces in the FRY -- I beg

25 your pardon, in Kosovo.

Page 11841

1 A. What was his relationship with the --

2 Q. What was your assessment of his authority in respect to the armed

3 forces in the FRY, in particular the MUP?

4 A. I'm not certain of his exact authorities, but I am certain that

5 they had a relationship that was of a coordination-type relationship.

6 From my observations in the field, the way the MUP and Serbian military

7 forces worked together, there was clearly a relationship there.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]


10 Q. You said you also met with President Milosevic. About how many

11 times did you meet with President Milosevic?

12 A. I believe it was three times.

13 Q. Do you recall a meeting on the 15th of December, 1998?

14 A. I recall meeting on the 24th of November --

15 Q. -- with Mr. Milosevic?

16 A. -- with Mr. Milosevic. And I believe the 15th of December was

17 with Mr. Holbrooke and I believe General Clark, the best I can recollect.

18 MR. STAMP: Could we pull up Exhibit 396, please. Could we move

19 briefly to the next page and to the final page. No, no. The page before

20 that where there's a signature, please. Could you go back, please.

21 Q. The document before you -- well, do you know what it is? It's --

22 I shouldn't -- withdrawn.

23 This is a letter dated the 23rd of November, 1998, signed by

24 Ambassador William Walker, who proposed this letter?

25 A. Mr. Walker signed the letter. I helped draft that letter.

Page 11842

1 Q. And it's addressed to Mr. Slobodan Milosevic. Was this letter

2 presented to President Milosevic?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Were you present at that time?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. When was this meeting?

7 A. This was in November, I believe, November 24th.

8 Q. Very well. Who else was present at that meeting?

9 A. Which side?

10 Q. Start with Mr. Milosevic's side.

11 A. Mr. Milosevic was present, Mr. Sainovic was present, and

12 Mr. Milutinovic was present. That's what I recall at that meeting. On

13 were you side it was Ambassador Miles, Ambassador Walker, and myself.

14 Q. Now, who arranged that meeting, and what was the purpose of that

15 meeting?

16 A. The purpose of the meeting was we were having some trouble with

17 cooperation, and Ambassador Walker felt it was necessary to deliver a

18 letter in writing that outlined the nature of the agreement and the

19 cooperation that we were looking for from the Serbian authorities.

20 Q. And the requests made in that letter, I think, speak for

21 themselves, but how did Mr. Milosevic react to these requests that were

22 made by Mr. Walker in the letter and verbally?

23 A. Well, he was very loud, upset that -- he felt that he was

24 providing a high degree of cooperation. It was the view of the OSCE that

25 he was not providing a high level of cooperation. We had asked for a

Page 11843

1 number of things. We had asked for the consulate to be established. We

2 asked for a medical evacuation helicopter by the Swiss. We had asked for

3 body-guards to be armed. And while those wishes were entertained in

4 Kosovo with Mr. Sainovic, they were later brought to Mr. Milosevic, and

5 he felt that any security that we required would be provided by the MUP or

6 the Serbian security forces.

7 Any helicopter support that we required for medical evacuation

8 would be provided by the FRY helicopter support. And that he claimed that

9 the consulate was, in fact, established in Pristina and the fact was it

10 never was established, so his information was wrong on that account.

11 Q. The letter indicates that action ought to be taken in respect to

12 heavy weapons, check-points, observation points, police patrols, border

13 security operations, and a variety of other matters. Were these, what I

14 just mentioned, discussed at the meeting with Mr. Milosevic?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And from your observations as to how the meeting was conducted and

17 what was said, did you make an assessment as to who was responsible on the

18 Serbian side for making decisions in respect to the use of the armed

19 forces in Kosovo and who was responsible to implement decisions?

20 A. I -- my observations told me that Mr. Milosevic was responsible

21 for security force decisions, that Mr. Sainovic was to implement them in

22 Kosovo.

23 Q. You said present at the meeting was also Mr. Milan Milutinovic.

24 Where did he sit at that meeting in respect to Mr. Milosevic?

25 A. Right next to Mr. Milosevic.

Page 11844

1 Q. Did he say anything at that meeting, or did you observe anything

2 about how the meeting was conducted on their side that led you to make an

3 assessment as to his role?

4 A. Mr. Sainovic did not say very much. There was one --

5 Q. I'm asking about Mr. Milutinovic --

6 A. I'm backing to that.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Mr. -- When he spoke to Milutinovic, it was never in English,

9 although Mr. Milosevic spoke good English. So I never understood what was

10 being said there; but after Mr. Milosevic would speak to Mr. Milutinovic

11 they would have whatever discussion, which I didn't understand, and then

12 Mr. Milutinovic would turn to Mr. Sainovic and say something. But I have

13 no knowledge of what was being said there.

14 Q. What was the basis for your assessment that Mr. Sainovic was

15 responsible for implementing decisions?

16 A. The basis of the decision was just the way Mr. Milosevic would

17 lean over and speak. On occasion he would say that -- he would ask

18 Mr. Sainovic to look into a situation for him. He would suggest to remove

19 a roadblock, things of that nature. The OSCE often complained about

20 roadblocks that prohibited them from getting into different villages and

21 different areas to perform their mission; and when we brought that either

22 to Mr. Milosevic or to Mr. Sainovic, clearly guidance was given from

23 Mr. Milosevic for Mr. Sainovic to execute. Sometimes those roadblocks

24 were removed quite promptly, other times they were not.

25 Q. Let's move on from that meeting in particular and speak about the

Page 11845

1 meetings generally. Did you bring to the attention of the Serb side any

2 complaints that you had from your observations in respect to the use of

3 armed forces and the conduct of armed forces that -- the police and the

4 army in Kosovo?

5 A. Yes, sir, we did.

6 Q. To which persons, if you can remember?

7 A. We brought that information to Mr. Sainovic in our weekly meetings

8 and Mr. Milosevic in -- I don't recall exactly what meeting. I believe it

9 was probably the third meeting with Mr. Milosevic; it would have been in

10 December.

11 Q. And when you brought those observation and complaints to

12 Mr. Sainovic's attention at the weekly meeting, do you know where

13 Mr. Lukic was?

14 A. Mr. Lukic was in those meetings.

15 Q. What was the reaction of the -- of the Serb government officials,

16 in particular Mr. Sainovic and Mr. Lukic?

17 A. When we would bring forward the issue of excessive force as a

18 result of KLA activities, it was -- their reaction was very defensive in

19 nature, always pleading that they had to protect the Serbian people

20 because the OSCE mission was not protecting the Serbian people. Our

21 concern was -- was that the KLA was using small-calibre weapons in some

22 cases, and there were MUP police officers that were killed by sniper

23 fire.

24 And the result of that would result in heavy Serbian or MUP combat

25 action that was, in our view, of an excessive nature based on the result

Page 11846

1 of the way that the KLA was going about their activities with -- with

2 force. It was met -- the small-arms fire by the KLA was met with

3 artillery rounds by the Serbian forces.

4 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean when you say

5 that their reaction was defensive, very defensive in nature.

6 A. Defensive in nature that the Serbian authorities, Mr. Sainovic,

7 Mr. Loncar, would claim that what they were doing was perfectly

8 authorised. It was -- it made sense; it was a way that they had to

9 respond to the terrorists that they were trying to defeat. They tried to

10 justify their level of force as a retaliatory measure on the KLA activity,

11 if that helps.

12 Q. Very well. The level of force which you just referred to, did you

13 make actual observations of those forces in the field?

14 A. Did I personally?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I think on the few occasions, yes, I did.

17 Q. Were these -- these units were from what parts of the armed

18 forces, do you know?

19 A. Well, they were a mix. They were both MUP and the VJ. Podujevo

20 was a good example of that kind of situation where small-arms fire from

21 the KLA was met with heavy fire, tank fire, and that sort of thing,

22 artillery rounds from the VJ.

23 Q. You say that they were mixed. When you observed the forces in

24 operation, did you make an observation as to the level of -- well, I don't

25 want to ask a leading question. Let me ask you this: What do you mean

Page 11847

1 when you say that they were mixed?

2 A. Wherever the VJ was, the MUP were; wherever the MUP were, the VJ

3 was nearby. I observed VJ and MUP talking together. I observed VJ

4 repositioning MUP observation points and locations, Podujevo, one case in

5 Malisevo. So that -- that's my observation.

6 Q. Well, let's speak about Podujevo. When did you go to Podujevo?

7 A. Approximately December 25th, 1998, on Christmas Day.

8 Q. Why did you go there?

9 A. The VJ had been up there for some time, for several days,

10 conducting training activities, as we were told. They were very near

11 Albanian-populated areas. It clearly was a KLA stronghold that they were

12 looking at. The training, in my view, was kind of a way to deploy a large

13 number of VJ troops and MUP to position up there. My observation was it

14 was an attempt to draw fire and allow VJ and MUP action against the KLA in

15 a particular stronghold that they had been located in.

16 Q. Did you observe if and how the VJ and the MUP operated together?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. What did you observe?

19 A. I remember one of the observation points where we had a VJ Serbian

20 tank. Those men were dressed in green camouflage-type uniforms. The MUP

21 was dressed in their typical blue uniform. The -- I'm not sure if he was

22 a company commander, but the individual who was obviously in charge of

23 that location for the VJ and the individual in charge for the MUP would

24 converse and talk. That individual would go back and reposition some of

25 his men as a result of that conversation. Our interpreters and myself

Page 11848

1 were never allowed to be close to those conversations, but we would see

2 the actions as a result of those conversations.

3 And the MUP was located along the road leading up into Podujevo

4 directing some of it traffic, some of it VJ vehicles. So there was kind

5 of a -- certainly a command and control component to the MUP activity, and

6 it appeared to me that the senior commander on site there the

7 responsibilities belonged to the VJ.

8 Q. While you were at Podujevo, did you observe the MUP and the VJ or

9 the VJ in contact with the civilian population there?

10 A. You mean the civilian population, both Serbian and --

11 Q. The Albanian, Kosovar Albanian civilian population there?

12 A. I did not observe Serbian authorities in contact with Albanian

13 population.

14 Q. Okay. Did you take photographs of the armed personnel that you

15 saw there?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 MR. STAMP: Could we have a look at Exhibit 2586. This is a

18 series of photographs.

19 Q. This one, this is the first photograph, and it's K0577160. What

20 is depicted there? First, did you take this photograph?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. What is depicted there?

23 A. It's a picture of a Podujevo, December time-frame, VJ and MUP.

24 Obviously, this was a period of contact with the KLA, and I would tell you

25 sometimes it was difficult to tell. There were blue uniforms and green

Page 11849

1 uniforms. We felt that sometimes what we thought were MUP, the next day

2 appeared as VJ in a different uniform, both in Pristina proper and at some

3 locations of deployed sites. They appeared to be mixed.

4 Q. Do you remember what these persons in particular were doing at the

5 time?

6 A. We were receiving -- they were receiving small-arms fire from an

7 apparent KLA stronghold, and they had just basically taken cover. And I

8 remember, this was several years ago now, but if I remember they were

9 trying to reposition forces to try to protect their own location.

10 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to the next photograph. Well, could

11 we stop there.

12 Q. Whose writing is this?

13 A. This is my writing.

14 Q. This is for the record --

15 MR. STAMP: Could we go back to the writing. This is page

16 K0577161.

17 Q. This writing was ostensibly scanned in to have been -- to indicate

18 that it was at the back of the photograph.

19 Does this writing represent what it depicted in the photograph

20 which you just saw?

21 A. No. The writing that belongs to the photograph that I wrote about

22 was attributed to a woman whose husband had just been killed in front of

23 his home, and she was leaving her home with two weapons on each shoulder,

24 quite upset. And it's apparently been transcribed on the back of the

25 wrong picture, but I know the photo because I remember very well the event

Page 11850

1 that happened. It struck me as a very emotional event.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Does this look like a mistake in scanning this

3 material into the system?

4 THE WITNESS: No, sir, this is my mistake.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: It's written on the wrong photograph by you?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And can I take it that what you've written relates

8 to the death of a Serb?


10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to the next page; that's the next

12 photograph.

13 Q. Did you take this photograph?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. What does it depict?

16 A. This depicts Serbian security forces down between these trees

17 here, and they were taking small-arms fire from KLA stronghold. And the

18 Serb forces were -- or entering this area to establish an observation

19 point and firing points.

20 Q. Can you identify the Serb forces or the Serb force assets that you

21 see in the photograph?

22 A. I believe the individuals on the ground were Serb. There was some

23 MUP that were up there. As I say, it was several years ago, but there

24 were Serb forces up there that were well-armed and certainly returning

25 fire on the KLA side. I believe the APC carried out at the end is a MUP

Page 11851

1 vehicle.

2 MR. STAMP: Could we move to the next photograph, please.

3 Can we stop there.

4 Q. This is whose writing?

5 A. This is my writing.

6 Q. And that's K0577163. Does it describe what was -- what you saw in

7 the previous photograph?

8 A. Mm-hmm, yes.

9 Q. Can you read it for us just to ensure that --

10 A. It says: "27 December 1998, Kosovo, shooting three kilometres

11 west of Podujevo, Serb funeral convoy protected by militia or MUP on the

12 road from Obranca to Podujevo." And by "militia," I'm referring to the

13 MUP that were following the funeral convoy.

14 MR. STAMP: And could we move on to the next photograph in that

15 batch.

16 Q. Now, who took that photograph?

17 A. I took that photograph.

18 Q. And what does it depict?

19 A. It's a VJ location, VJ soldiers and equipment that they were

20 deployed with.

21 MR. STAMP: And quickly, the next one.

22 Q. Did you take this one?

23 A. I took this one as well, yes, sir.

24 Q. And what's in it?

25 A. It's -- I can't remember if that was a tank or heavy artillery

Page 11852

1 piece in there, but it was stuck, essentially, in the heavy mud and they

2 had taken up position, had been there for some time with Serbian forces

3 kneeling down because it was small-arms fire coming in their direction. I

4 believe this also was up in Podujevo during December 1998 time-frame.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. STAMP: Could we move to the second photograph after the next,

7 that is one P -- sorry, the one at page K0577167. Well, we are at 68.

8 This is K0577167.

9 Q. Did you take this photograph?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And what is depicted here?

12 A. This was a -- a search of a -- it was a home of some type. I

13 believe this was the Serbian police that were conducting this particular

14 search, the MUP.

15 Q. Where was this?

16 A. It was near Podujevo, but not in Podujevo proper. Probably a

17 couple kilometres. I refer to all these pictures as Podujevo because

18 that's generally where we were that day and there was a lot of

19 house-to-house searching going on because of the KLA activity located in

20 the -- off of a hill up in Podujevo, kind of down in a valley area.

21 Q. Very well. Thanks. We have spoken about the coordination of the

22 VJ and the MUP in respect to Podujevo, but can you tell us generally

23 speaking from your field-work did you make any observation in respect to

24 the timing, the timing of the deployments of the VJ forces in respect to

25 the deployments of the MUP forces?

Page 11853

1 A. My observations stem from a couple of locations. As I walked to

2 work, I had to walk by the VJ headquarters that was in Pristina; and in

3 the morning I could see them -- vehicles parked outside the headquarters,

4 heavy vehicles, APCs, small vehicles that were loading up troops and where

5 the Pristina OSCE headquarters was located there was a MUP headquarters

6 there and I could see and hear at the same time the MUP loading up into

7 trucks and APC carriers and whatnot. Typically what I saw was the VJ

8 would go out first, and then -- about 30 to 45 minutes ahead of the MUP

9 and then the MUP would go out behind them in the same direction. And on

10 occasion the OSCE verifiers tried to follow and sometimes we could follow

11 and other times we couldn't, the roadblocks were such that we could not

12 continue. Generally when we saw both components go there was some sort of

13 trouble in one of the villages, there had been some shelling and some

14 firing and some sort of exchange of fire would take place and of course

15 part of our role was to make sure that the cease-fire stayed in effect.

16 So we were, as verifiers, concerned about that and immediately tried to

17 find out what the mission was, what their purpose of deploying out was,

18 and we couldn't always get that answer in a timely fashion.

19 Q. Did you go to -- well, I'll put it this way. On the 16th of

20 January at about 7.00 in the morning did you go anywhere for observations,

21 16th of January, 1999?

22 A. Yes, sir. At about 7.00 Ambassador Walker and I arrived at Racak,

23 in the village of Racak.

24 Q. Now, in respect what we were just speaking about, the deployment

25 of armed forces, what did you observe there?

Page 11854

1 A. When we arrived at Racak, we were called out by our centre

2 commanders that were located in Stimlje, that there had been a fairly

3 heavy exchange of gun-fire up on the village at Racak. And about 7.00

4 Ambassador Walker and I arrived, and there was several -- a lot of MUP on

5 the road leading into Stimlje, throughout Stimlje, not much in Racak

6 proper. And as we got into Racak we would see, behind us up on the

7 hill-side, VJ, and they had been up there for themselves a few days

8 conducting training. And we walked into the village of Racak, the first

9 thing that we saw was a decapitated Albanian man in his late 60s, early

10 70s.

11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: We're into territory we don't need to enter, Mr.

13 Stamp. Thank you.


15 Q. The last question I have about your observations at Racak. You

16 said you saw - and I'm just speaking about what you said in respect to the

17 forces acting together - you said you "could see VJ up on the hill behind

18 us." What do you mean by VJ? What could you see? Could you just tell us

19 what could you see when you say VJ, and what were they doing.

20 A. We could see tanks located up on the hill and artillery pieces up

21 on the hill.

22 Q. Did you see them do anything?

23 A. They didn't fire on the village while we were there, so I didn't

24 actually see them fire, no, sir.

25 Q. Very well. Now, you discussed with us earlier on several meetings

Page 11855

1 that you attended at which Mr. Sainovic and Mr. Loncar was present. Based

2 on what you observed in respect to the relationship between the two of

3 them, did any one of them or both of them have any authority over the

4 activities of the VJ in Kosovo at the time?

5 A. I would tell you that Mr. Sainovic, whenever he was presented by

6 the OSCE with the concern about Serbian security forces' behaviour, he

7 would turn to Mr. Loncar or turn to Mr. Lukic and ask a question, What

8 about that behaviour?

9 So it implied to me he had some authority over those activities by

10 the sorts of questions and concerns that he had, which each of those

11 representatives from both the MUP, Mr. Loncar with the VJ.

12 MR. STAMP: That, Your Honours, is the examination-in-chief of

13 this witness.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

17 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, can I request that we take the break

18 a little this morning -- can I request that we take an earlier break, that

19 we take the break now.


21 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just to review the notes and some of the things

22 that have arisen during this direct.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you any idea, at the worst, how long the

24 cross-examination will be?

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: In total?

Page 11856

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. The trouble with breaking now is it knocks

2 out the schedule so far as interpreters' breaks are concerned. As you

3 know, we're tied in to these breaks. But if we're not going to need the

4 last half-hour or so of the day, then it won't be a problem.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, for my part, I think I have 30 to 40

6 minutes. Maybe if everybody else could give an estimate we'd know.

7 MR. FILA: One hour.

8 MR. SEPENUK: I'll probably have a half an hour, Your Honour, but

9 that again depends on Mr. -- I think we're going by order of the

10 indictment for the cross. So it could be less, it could be more depending

11 on the questions from the first two Defence counsel.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well -- sorry, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Ivetic.

13 MR. IVETIC: I'm looking at probably at least an hour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give me a moment to think about this.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Mr. Phillips, I have a question.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

18 JUDGE CHOWHAN: In the meanwhile we save time. About the

19 authority of Mr. Sainovic, you observed that whenever there was a question

20 he looked at General Loncar and Mr. Lukic. He only looked or he expected

21 a reply or he gave them instructions upon the complaints?

22 THE WITNESS: He would look and ask the question, What do you know

23 about this, essentially, and/or give them guidance to find out why they

24 weren't -- why the OSCE verifiers were not provided access to particular

25 barracks. So he was inquisitive in getting the concerns we as the

Page 11857

1 verifiers answered from either his MUP security commander or from his VJ

2 liaison officer, which was Mr. Loncar.

3 JUDGE CHOWHAN: No more than that? No reprimand?

4 THE WITNESS: No, sir.

5 JUDGE CHOWHAN: No directions? No orders to them, Do this, do

6 that this way next time?

7 THE WITNESS: Sometimes there were -- there was guidance provided

8 what he needed to get an answer for but never a reprimand.

9 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Okay. Thanks a lot.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, Mr. O'Sullivan. We'll take the break

13 now.

14 We have to have breaks at various stages, Mr. Phillips so that

15 those who are working intensively behind the scenes get a chance to

16 regroup and we have to take one of these just now. If you leave the

17 courtroom with the usher he'll show you where to wait. It's very

18 important that during these breaks you have no discussion with anyone. I

19 mention this to you in particular because there are representatives of the

20 provider of this material in court and it's important that you have no

21 discussions in particular with them during any of the breaks.

22 Could you now please leave the courtroom with the usher.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: And we will resume at 10.55.

Page 11858

1 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. O'Sullivan.

5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. Your Honour, we'll proceed by the

6 order of the indictment.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan:

8 Q. Good morning, sir.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. Sir, we received from the Prosecutor notes of an interview

11 conducted between you and representatives of the Prosecutor's office in

12 Washington, DC, between the 14th and the 16th of March, 2001. I'd like to

13 ask you just a few questions about that. You sat down with two

14 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, and is it correct to say

15 that the interview was conducted on a question-and-answer basis, they

16 would ask you questions and you would provide information you had in

17 response to those questions?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And at the time in 2001, did you make your best efforts to be

20 complete and provide information to the best of your recollection?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And would it be fair to say and would you agree that your

23 recollection of events was fresher and better in 2001 than it is today?

24 A. Well, I don't think I can make a judgement on that. I thought my

25 interview with the Prosecutor in the month of March was probably better

Page 11859

1 than my interview with the Prosecutors in 2001.

2 Q. My question is a little different. I mean, with the passage of

3 time- and there's nothing sinister about this- I'm just suggesting to you

4 that your recollection in 2001 in which you experienced in 1998 and 1999,

5 would probably be fresher and more accurate and better than it is today,

6 eight years or nine years later. Would it be fair to put it that way?

7 A. I can't make a judgement on whether it is or it isn't. I just

8 remember what I remember.

9 Q. Okay. Today in your testimony you claim that on 24th of November,

10 1998, you attended a meeting with Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr.

11 Sainovic, Mr. Walker, and Ambassador Miles. Do you recall saying that?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. There is absolutely no account of that meeting on that date with

14 these people in your 2001 interview. Are you aware of that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How do you explain that?

17 A. There was a meeting in November with Mr. Milosevic in 1998, I am

18 pretty certain it was November 24th.

19 Q. And you were interviewed by the Prosecutor of this Tribunal last

20 July, July 2006; correct? That's the information we have from them.

21 A. It could have been, I was interviewed a couple of times.

22 Q. Does that sound right, last year?

23 A. Roughly yes.

24 Q. And we received a summary from that interview because we were not

25 allowed to see the actual notes, and nowhere in that summary, nowhere in

Page 11860

1 that summary from last year, do you mention a meeting on the 24th of

2 November, 1998, with these six people including yourself. How do you

3 explain that?

4 A. All I can tell you is that on November 24th there was a meeting,

5 and whether I answered a question to that account during those interviews

6 I can't recall, but I'm very certain of the meeting with Mr. Milosevic;

7 would never forget it.

8 Q. On that day with those people; correct?

9 A. Pretty certain.

10 Q. Is that your position?

11 A. Pretty certain.

12 Q. Well, I'm looking at the notes from March 2001 which we received

13 from the Prosecutor, and on the 24th of November you said that you were

14 having dinner in the government building of Pristina, and it was attended

15 by Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Walker, Mr. Loncar, General DZ, and you. That's

16 where you said you were on the 24th of November, 1998, in Pristina.

17 A. I certainly could have had that date wrong.

18 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you have the meeting wrong and, in

19 fact, my position is you never participated in the meeting where

20 Mr. Milutinovic was present. Do you accept that?

21 A. I can tell you that I participated in a meeting in November where

22 Mr. Milosevic was present; Mr. Sainovic was present; I'm certain

23 Mr. Milutinovic was there.

24 Q. You seem less than certain, sir, about Milutinovic being there.

25 A. Well, I'm certainly checking myself against the dates that you

Page 11861

1 present to me. I want to be very accurate here, but to the best of my

2 recollection that's the way it went down.

3 Q. Well, tell me where and when, if it wasn't the 24th, which I say

4 it's not, where and when did the meeting where you participated where

5 Mr. Milutinovic was present, where and when did that take place?

6 A. The meeting that I had with Mr. Milosevic that Ambassador Walker

7 had with Mr. Milosevic and I was present was November 24th.

8 Q. I'm asking you, give me the time and place -- or the date and

9 place where you say you participated with the meeting with Mr.

10 Milutinovic, because I say you never did.

11 A. I can't give you a date and a place. I know that I met with

12 Mr. Milosevic in what was his white house, his building.

13 Q. So you do not recall -- you cannot give me a recollection of a

14 meeting that you had with Mr. Milutinovic; is it fair to put it that way?

15 A. I never had a meeting with Mr. Milutinovic; I had a meeting with

16 Mr. Milosevic.

17 Q. Right. And Mr. --

18 A. And I participated in the meeting. I didn't have the meeting. It

19 wasn't my meeting.

20 Q. You participated. And I'm suggesting to you that you never

21 participated in a meeting where Mr. Milutinovic was present. Do you

22 accept that?

23 MR. STAMP: For the fourth time. THE WITNESS: No, I don't.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, Mr. Stamp?

25 MR. STAMP: It's asked and answered about three times.

Page 11862

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think it's been answered very definitively,

2 and I think it can be pursued by Mr. O'Sullivan if he wishes to do so.

3 THE WITNESS: I can tell you it's a possibility that he was not

4 there. It's been eight years, like you said. My notes are what my notes

5 say, and I relied on my notes at that time.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem, Mr. Phillips, from what we're hearing

7 is your notes don't say anything.

8 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I'm doing my best to remember what

9 happened in that time-frame.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: So it doesn't help to fall back on the notes

11 because they don't tell with this apparently, and that doesn't help us.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, I have a number of questions.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon -- good morning, Mr. Phillips, my

19 name is Toma Fila and I represent Mr. Sainovic. I will be asking you some

20 questions about your testimony today. You mentioned General Loncar and

21 you said today that he was a retired general.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would like Defence Exhibit 2D9 to be

23 shown to you. I'm sorry that we will be going through the same batch of

24 exhibits all over again.

25 Q. So while we're waiting for this document, let me tell you that

Page 11863

1 General Loncar was never a four-star general, as you indicated, and that

2 he was a member of the coordination body of the federal government, the

3 government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

4 So perhaps now you can have a look at the screen because the

5 document has now appeared on it.

6 A. I see the screen.

7 Q. You can see here that this was signed by the president of the

8 Yugoslav government, Momir Bulatovic. Does this correspond to what

9 General Loncar was actually doing, I mean, the way it is described here in

10 this document?

11 Okay. We'll return to that later when we see where Sainovic was.

12 But you said today --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: This document, Mr. Fila, is a supplement to another

14 one; is that correct? And the first 11 members of the commission

15 appeared --

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I will get to that.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't appear to me that the witness has said

18 anything that really impacts on that document at all.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, because I have to show him the

20 previous document.

21 Could we then look at 2D8. This is the document that actually

22 precedes the one that we have on the screen now.

23 Q. Please have a good look at this document. This document is the

24 document that precedes the one we've just seen. So as you can see, this

25 is a coordination body and its name is the Commission of the Federal

Page 11864

1 Government for the Cooperation with the OSCE mission; and in a decision of

2 the federal government - again, this decision is signed by the federal

3 Prime Minister Momir Bulatovic - the members and the president, the

4 chairman of this commission are appointed and the chairman of the

5 commission is Mr. Nikola Sainovic.

6 If you look at this document, you will see what the commission

7 actually does. Please have a look at Article 2, Article 3; and if you

8 look at the next page, you will see the signature and the date when this

9 decision was actually made. As you can see, this is the 19th of October,

10 1998. It was signed by the Yugoslav Prime Minister Momir Bulatovic.

11 Mr. Phillips, does this actually -- is it consistent with what you

12 talked about regarding Nikola Sainovic's powers in Kosovo, saying that

13 General Loncar was a member of this commission and that many others were

14 on that commission, too?

15 A. I don't think I said that Mr. Loncar was a member of that

16 commission. I'm not familiar with that commission, but I will tell you

17 what I read here is consistent with what Mr. Sainovic was performing for

18 OSCE.

19 Q. Thank you. That was, in fact, the gist of my question. So if you

20 see that Loncar was a member of this commission, then you will agree with

21 me that it is quite natural that the chairman of the commission outranks a

22 member of the commission?

23 A. That makes sense to me.

24 Q. Of course. The next thing that I would like you to focus on is to

25 see that this authority is given by the federal government and not by

Page 11865

1 Slobodan Milosevic, who is not mentioned at all in this whole document,

2 although he was the president at the time.

3 But would you agree with me that this body, the coordination body,

4 that is established by the Yugoslav government, that the chairman of this

5 commission then is responsible to the Government of Yugoslavia? Does that

6 make sense to you?

7 And that is why he has to report to the Yugoslav government and to

8 get his tasks from the Yugoslav government and relay them to you and so

9 on. Does that make sense to you?

10 A. Yes, sir. It makes sense.

11 Q. Naturally. So you will agree with me that when you say that

12 Sainovic had to consult with somebody in Belgrade, that it did not refer

13 only to Milosevic but the federal government because he had been appointed

14 by them.

15 A. Yes, sir. I would agree with that.

16 Q. Now let me ask you, when Mr. Stamp asked you a question, you said

17 that Sainovic was Milosevic's personal envoy, you said that twice, and you

18 said the same thing about Mr. Lukic. Does this indicate to you that

19 Mr. Sainovic was not a personal envoy of anyone, but that he was there as

20 a representative of the federal government, as the chairman of the

21 Commission for the Cooperation.

22 What does it mean to you, "personal envoy"? Do you think that all

23 these people were personal envoys of Milosevic? If you do, then that's

24 fine.

25 A. Sir, the only thing I can speak to on that is just how it was

Page 11866

1 introduced to me at those initial meetings with Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Loncar,

2 Mr. Lukic. I was introduced to them. They introduced themselves to us,

3 and Ambassador Walker, as a personal representative of Mr. Milosevic. It

4 is nothing more or nothing less than that. Right or wrong, or whatever it

5 has to do with of the commission, that's just the way it was introduced to

6 me.

7 Q. But you can see that this document does not really say that. Do

8 you allow that what is stated in this document, that it is actually

9 correct and that he was, in fact, a representative of the federal

10 government?

11 A. I certainly do believe that Mr. Sainovic was a representative of

12 the government.

13 Q. Thank you. Let us move on. This may look to you as some kind of

14 legal wrangling. You are an officer. It is much easier for your, but we

15 have a saying that a general is worse than your mother-in-law. So that is

16 why it is clear for us to be clear. You mentioned in one part of your

17 statement Mr. Sainovic. Do you know where Mr. Sainovic was born?

18 A. I don't believe it was in Kosovo, but there was a discussion with

19 Mr. Sainovic when we first met with him that his heart is in Kosovo and

20 that he hangs his hat in Kosovo and that made the comment that he was born

21 in Kosovo, but I understand that he was born in Serbia proper. But that

22 was a discussion early on in him professing how much he loved Kosovo.

23 Q. What I want to tell you, let me explain, in the notes in your 65

24 ter summary -- in fact, the notes from your interview in Washington, it is

25 stated that you said that he was born in Kosovo and that he travelled to

Page 11867

1 Kosovo every weekend because he missed it. This is stated in the notes

2 that you -- that we have from one of your interviews. But I merely wanted

3 to point out to you that he was born in Borovo, he was not born in Kosovo

4 at all. He doesn't have any family there. I'm just trying to bring your

5 attention to the fact that words are very important. He was in fact born

6 in Bor.

7 A. I can agree with you on that, sir, but as you say words are very

8 important and I would tell you that I never said he came to Kosovo on the

9 weekends because he missed it. I never said that anywhere in my notes or

10 anywhere in my testimony.

11 Q. Well, it does in paragraph 1 of your notes, the notes from your

12 interview in Washington. I don't want to use them as an exhibit, but that

13 is what it says here. You can look at that. You have the heading, the

14 first meeting with Sainovic, that's the last paragraph on page 2 and first

15 paragraph on page 3. It says here that Sainovic knew Kosovo well because

16 he had been born there. Somebody wrote that down. I see now that you say

17 that you did not say that but this is what it says in the notes --

18 A. No, you're misinterpreting me. I never said he missed Kosovo

19 which is why he came back on the weekend. I'm referring to you -- I'm

20 referring to you that he came to Kosovo Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to

21 work with the OSCE mission, and I'm telling you that these are not my

22 assessments or my assumptions where he was born; this is what I was told

23 in these meetings.

24 Q. I agree with what you say today. I agree that this is, indeed,

25 correct, but the notes contain something else. So what you're saying now,

Page 11868

1 that's correct. So we don't have a problem here at all.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, we do have a problem because the

3 particular phrase you used is the one that the witness will not accept

4 that he said and I certainly can't find it in the notes either.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] These are the notes made by people who

6 interviewed him in Washington --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but it doesn't say --

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] -- On the 14th and 16th --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: It doesn't say in the one I've got, at least I

10 haven't found it, that he travelled to Kosovo every weekend because he

11 missed it. And it's these words alone that the witness is taking

12 exception to.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, okay, but this is immaterial. It

15 says here that he was born in Kosovo Polje and so on and he was not. I

16 simply wanted to stress how important words are --


18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] -- That's why I'll move on.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You resolved the problems you were concerned about

20 and what you left trailing was a comment attributed to the witness which

21 he did not make and that has also now been clarified so we can move on.

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].

23 Q. On the 9th of December, 1998, you had a meeting with Mr. Sainovic.

24 If you recall, can you tell me whether the following is correct, that

25 Sainovic suggested on that occasion that the Kosovo Verification Mission

Page 11869

1 should use the entire Serbian health care system. It's on page 4 of your

2 notes. The heading is: "Meeting with Sainovic on the 9th of December."

3 A. I'd like to refer to my notes on that, but was that in my 2001

4 or my 2006 deposition or interview?

5 JUDGE BONOMY: It's the 2001 document I think, page 4.

6 THE WITNESS: May I look at my notes here, sir?

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: My "notes," what are you referring to?

9 THE WITNESS: The interview in 2001.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: This is -- who made --

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] We'll show it --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.

13 Who made this record of the interview?

14 THE WITNESS: This was a record that was done at the US State

15 Department in 2001. It would have been -- the OTP at the time would have

16 been Mr. Milbert Shin.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you happy, Mr. Fila, that the witness refers to

18 that document?

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no, I have no objection at all.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

21 You may refer to it if -- or do you not have a copy in front of

22 you?

23 THE WITNESS: I've got a copy, sir, it may take me a few minutes

24 to find it here.

25 MR. STAMP: May I just --

Page 11870

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP: -- This -- may I just consult with my colleague?

3 [Prosecution counsel confer].

4 THE WITNESS: You say it was page 4, sir?

5 MR. STAMP: May I just -- if we are going to refer the witness to

6 that part of the interview notes but, could it be done in closed session?

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And the reason for that?

8 MR. STAMP: These -- the interview notes themselves were not made

9 available for disclosure to the public at large. They were -- the

10 disclosure of these notes was restricted to use by the Defence if --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: But it's not even -- hold on. It's not the Defence

12 that are using them, it's the witness that wants to refer to them.

13 MR. STAMP: I know, Your Honour --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: There's no need for this to be on a screen where

15 it's going to be publicised.

16 MR. STAMP: I ask if we are going to refer to it in the sense

17 where we are reading from it then it be done in closed session. But my

18 friend is indicating that we won't be reading from them.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: All that's happened here, as I understand it, is

21 that the witness has sought leave to refer to the document so he gives an

22 accurate answer. I don't think Mr. Fila proposes reading from it. So

23 let's see how we get on.

24 THE WITNESS: All right, sir, I found the statement that you're

25 referring to and you're asking me is that an accurate statement?

Page 11871

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. The statement -- the statement is -- is accurate and is a result

4 of us asking for Swiss medevac helicopters, and the reply was that our

5 medical health care system here in Kosovo is good and you should be able

6 to use that with great trust.

7 Q. All right. Keep your notes in front of you. Would you agree with

8 me that on that occasion Sainovic offered Mr. Walker escorts or

9 body-guards from the Serbian MUP, if you recall?

10 A. Yes, sir, I do recall that and he did.

11 Q. Very well. Is it correct that Mr. Sainovic offered Serb

12 helicopters for the purpose of medical assistance to members of the

13 verification mission?

14 A. Yes, sir, he did.

15 Q. All right. Today you said that you discussed this issue with

16 Milosevic and that he issued the definite decision, that it was actually

17 he who made the decisions on the consulates, helicopters, and so on. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. I think he was facilitating those decisions on behalf, which, as

20 the commission states, was part of his mandate for logistics and support

21 for OSCE, yes, sir.

22 Q. You won't need your notes any longer. I don't need them to be

23 read out, and I don't want to use them as an exhibit. Simply -- it was

24 simply to jog your memory.

25 Did you meet Mr. Ciaglinski, a lieutenant-colonel who testified

Page 11872

1 here?

2 A. I know him, yes, sir.

3 Q. On page 6890, lines 17 to 24, Mr. Ciaglinski said that the Kosovo

4 Verification Mission, and I quote: "Could not use a helicopter similar to

5 those used by the Army of Yugoslavia to attack the KLA, which was a

6 well-known model. It's true that we were offered it, but we were unable

7 to accept it for reasons of our security and safety, as well as the

8 security and safety of our verifiers. It's very difficult to tell when

9 it's a foggy day whether the helicopter had a white cross on it or whether

10 it's being used to attack."

11 So would you accept this assessment made by Lieutenant-Colonel

12 Ciaglinski?

13 A. Yes, sir, I would.

14 Q. Thank you. Another witness, General Maisonneuve, testified here

15 on -- on page 11085, lines 21 to 24, and page 10086 [as interpreted],

16 lines 3 to 4; that's the testimony of the 3rd of March, 2007, where said

17 that he had two men in his security who were Albanians and who told him

18 they were about to join the KLA.

19 I don't know how many Albanians were in your security there, but

20 would you accept it was logical for Yugoslavia to agree that such persons

21 should not be issued with weapons, I mean, persons who were Albanians and

22 who wanted to join the KLA?

23 A. It's logical to me that I would not want to issue weapons to

24 members who wanted to join the KLA, yes, sir.

25 Q. Very well. At one point you said that the request of the Kosovo

Page 11873

1 Verification Mission for visa facilitation had not been accommodated, and

2 there are various things here that you told Mr. Sainovic. But don't you

3 think it's logical, in view of the structure that you stated, that as the

4 president of the coordinating body for cooperation with you, he could only

5 transmit those requests to Belgrade.

6 This has to do with consulates, visas, cars, and the other

7 problems you had. In other words, would you agree with me that Sainovic

8 could not solve these problems personally when you complained to him about

9 them, and that that's why the replies arrived only a few days afterwards?

10 I don't know if I eve been clear enough.

11 A. I don't know if he could have solved them personally, but he was

12 certainly the individual who told us that we would have those made

13 available to us, have the consulate made available to us to expedite the

14 visas for the verifiers arriving into Kosovo.

15 Q. Yes. And then Mr. Walker's letter was sent to Mr. Milosevic with

16 the same request. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And you expected Milosevic to be able to deal with this issue

19 rather than Sainovic; otherwise, you wouldn't have written the letter. Is

20 that correct?

21 A. We wrote the letter because we weren't getting any action and our

22 verification team was slow to arrive, and we were looking for a more

23 expeditious manner of cooperation to get that consulate established.

24 Q. Yes, I understand that. But why did you apply to Milosevic?

25 A. Because we were not getting any action from Mr. Sainovic or in

Page 11874

1 Kosovo from any other source. We highlighted this to Mr. Milosevic as an

2 area of support we required, and -- because nothing was happening to our

3 request to the personal representative, in this case was Mr. Sainovic.

4 Q. And you expected Milosevic to solve this; is that correct? He was

5 the only one who could solve it?

6 A. We did expect him to be able to solve it, yes, and he told us that

7 it was already established. So we assumed he had solved it, but in fact

8 it was never established.

9 Q. It wasn't.

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. When answering questions from His Honour and from Mr. Stamp, you

12 said that when you spoke at those weekly meetings if the problem had to do

13 with the army, Sainovic would look at Loncar; if it was about the MUP, he

14 would look at someone else.

15 Let's first clarify one point. Apart from these weekly meetings,

16 did your representatives have daily meetings with Colonel Kotur, for

17 example, and other officers, the MUP and the army, lower level?

18 A. I was not present at those meetings. I understood they took place

19 with our liaison officers because they did report back to Mr. Walker

20 regularly, so I can assume that they did have those daily meetings at

21 those levels, yes, sir.

22 Q. Thank you. According to what you saw now regarding Mr. Sainovic's

23 powers as the head of the commission, if he were to ask Loncar as the

24 representative of the army or someone else who was in charge of the MUP,

25 he had to cooperate with them to solve the problems that you were facing.

Page 11875

1 When you said you had a military problem, he would look at the

2 person in charge of military matters because he was evidently not kept

3 up-to-date on that. Is that correct?

4 A. Could you repeat that question, sir.

5 Q. I'm trying to follow on from what His Honour Judge Chowhan asked

6 you. Wouldn't it be logical that if there was the president of a

7 commission who was supposed to help you and you presented a problem at the

8 weekly meeting that had to do either with the army or with the MUP, for

9 him to ask the army what the problem was about or for him to ask the

10 police what the problem was about because that was what he was supposed to

11 be doing. Is that correct?

12 A. It would make sense that he would ask the army or the police what

13 was happening, yes, sir.

14 Q. Yes, that's what I was trying to get at, because the information,

15 of course, was crucial for cooperation with you. How could he cooperate

16 with you if he had no idea what was going on. Isn't that correct?

17 A. It is my observation and opinion that Mr. Sainovic knew full well

18 what was going on in Kosovo. That's the only way I can answer that

19 were -- certainly he knew what was going on.

20 Q. Yes. And he received the information from representatives of the

21 army, the MUP, the politicians, and so on, because that was actually his

22 job description, wasn't it, as the president of the commission, to be

23 informed about all this?

24 A. I can't speak to what his job entailed. I see the commission was

25 established. I see his position in there, but I don't know what the flow

Page 11876

1 of information was for him or who reported to him or how all that was put

2 together there. All I can speak to is the issues we brought before him to

3 be solved in our weekly meetings with him.

4 Q. And then he would look at one or the other of them and receive

5 information from them, that's how you described it, whether Loncar or the

6 MUP or whatever. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, sir. For example, when we wanted to visit a barrack, we

8 couldn't get into the barracks. We would bring that problem back to that

9 meeting, and he would turn to Mr. Milosevic and ask, Why couldn't they get

10 into the barracks -- or turn to Mr. Loncar, Why couldn't they get into the

11 barracks.

12 Q. Sainovic?

13 A. Yes, Mr. Sainovic would turn to Mr. Loncar and ask, Why couldn't

14 you get into the barracks?

15 Q. Okay. Let's move on. You mentioned Malisevo and the problems

16 concerning Malisevo. Would you agree with me that the problem of Malisevo

17 was resolved on the basis of a joint initiative of the SRJ and the Kosovo

18 Verification Mission, and it was solved by reducing the number of members

19 of the MUP and strengthening or stepping up the numbers of the members of

20 the Kosovo Verification Mission in Malisevo. This helped to defuse

21 tension and enable people to return. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Are you aware, because this has been mentioned by

24 others, that Sainovic advocated personally that this same model be applied

25 in other places in Kosovo because it proved to be successful?

Page 11877

1 Mr. Petritsch mentioned this.

2 A. I don't recall any discussion on that example. I would tell you

3 that Mr. Sainovic was helpful to try and get the Malisevo problem solved.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, remind me what you're referring to by the

5 SRJ.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

7 Yugoslavia. It's hard for us, too, Your Honours, to remember what our

8 name is. Every time we go home, we find we are smaller and our name has

9 changed. So when I come back from this trial, I don't know what the name

10 will be.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: It's usually translated as FRY, of course, but

12 you've clarified it. Thank you.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].

14 Q. Could we now deal with your personal notes very briefly. We'll

15 start with your dinner with Mr. Sainovic on the 24th of November, 1998.

16 Do you need to have the notes before you, or do you want me to put them on

17 the screen? Very well. Let's -- no. Let's look at 2D17, please.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, hold on, Mr. Fila. What is 2D17?

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Part of his notes.


21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I will be extracting a single sentence.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Hold on.

23 These notes are obviously downloaded into the system. Does your

24 point apply to them as it applied to the interview notes?

25 MR. STAMP: Some parts of them, Your Honour. We would have to

Page 11878

1 deal with them on a case-by-case basis, but this one is not one.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: So you would have to be careful, Mr. Fila, to

3 ensure that the ones that are put on the screen are not subject to any

4 Rule 70 restriction.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] These are just two sentences, and they

6 are not subject to such restrictions.

7 Could we please take a look at 2D17.

8 Your Honours, the Prosecutor has all this. If they wish, at any

9 point, to go into closed session, then that's no problem. Could this be

10 shown, please. Next page.

11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In this exhibit there is a question. Mr. Walker asks Sainovic why

14 there are fewer Albanians who want to live in Yugoslavia, and Mr. Sainovic

15 says most of the people in Kosovo believe they can arrive at a political

16 solution. This is what I wanted to show you. Have you found it?

17 A. Yes, sir, I see it on the screen.

18 Q. What I want to ask you is the following. In this passage, does it

19 go to show what I believe it can show that Mr. Sainovic was in favour of a

20 political solution, because he said that the greater part of the people in

21 Kosovo believed they can arrive at a political solution.

22 Would that show his being in favour of a political solution?

23 That's what I wanted to ask you.

24 A. Sir, in all due respect, I can't make a judgement on what

25 Mr. Sainovic was thinking here. I just recorded the moment of his

Page 11879

1 comments, you know, his words, "The greater part of the people in Kosovo

2 believe they can arrive at a political solution." What that tells me is

3 that he was hopeful that there could be some sort of a solution.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. The next thing I wanted to show you - and if Mr. Stamp feels we

7 have to move into closed session, we will - that's 2D18, a meeting with

8 Mr. Sainovic on the 9th of December, 1998. In e-court it's page 12 -- 1

9 and 2. I don't think it falls under Rule 70, I don't think.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: No, just continue with this one, Mr. Fila. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Could you please find it, and Sainovic says here that security is

14 the primary concern and that details should be discussed. It has to do

15 with your security, and it deals with health care and making a list of

16 joint efforts to ensure the best possible health care. These are your

17 notes, and later I'll put questions to you about them. And then it says

18 that the best possible solution should be offered, and that an entire

19 system was on offer from helicopters to the entire hospital system.

20 He says, "We're ready to offer this tomorrow in Pristina, Prizren,

21 Pec under all weather conditions. We can offer you better than one

22 helicopter in unfamiliar terrain. Our doctors can come and visit any

23 hospital and exchange information on health care, so let's organise the

24 best possible plan."

25 And then he goes on to say: "I appreciate your honest discussion.

Page 11880

1 Let's ensure the best possible health care system. There is a potential

2 risk in flying in all weather conditions. We can give you a medical plane

3 that can fly you to Germany, England, or other places; if not, let's

4 discuss this."

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Please turn the page.

6 Q. Have you found it, sir?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And now I have a brief question for you. Would you have noted,

9 could this be construed as the wish by the Yugoslav side or Mr. Sainovic

10 to find a solution to providing assistance, medical assistance, to members

11 of the KV, that Sainovic is flexible because he really wants this thing to

12 be solved? Would you agree with me now that I have read back to you what

13 you have noted?

14 A. I'm not sure, sir, and forgive me, I know you read an awful lot

15 there, but I'm not sure of the question you want me to answer. If you're

16 asking me if Mr. Sainovic was making a concerted effort --

17 Q. The offer, the offer.

18 A. Yeah, the offer is absolutely correct. I remember that

19 conversation. Mr. Sainovic was offering many things from the FRY, and our

20 problem with being able to accept it was security. We felt that it would

21 jeopardise both the FRY -- or the Serbian people and would jeopardise the

22 safety of KVM as well, if we accepted it.

23 Q. Was this a sincere offer, in your view? This is what I would like

24 to know. When Sainovic offered you all this, was he sincere? Did he

25 really want the problem to be solved, in your view?

Page 11881

1 A. I believe he was sincere and I believe he did want it to be

2 solved.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. In the same conversation, and now

4 we're talking about Exhibit Number 2D18, the same exhibit, Sainovic said

5 that the Ambassador Miles [as interpreted] and the head of the US-DOM were

6 prepared to establish a constant presence and I was told of people coming

7 back. This pressure cannot go on for more than two weeks because they

8 will be dissolving.

9 General DZ -- but the mayor of Malisevo said that the presence of

10 international KDOM would give him confidence to bring his people back and

11 also keep the force safe. And finally Sainovic says: "With joint efforts

12 we can make a difference in the most difficult of situations."

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Can we go to the next page, please.

14 Turn to the next page.

15 Q. I have read this out because it arises from this that both you and

16 Sainovic, i.e., the government of Serbia or Yugoslavia, believe that the

17 solution to the problem of Malisevo could be found in the cooperation

18 between the international factors and Yugoslavia and that this could be

19 achieved by the reduction of the MUP presence and the stepping-up of the

20 international presence. And this is precisely what Sainovic suggested,

21 that was his proposal?

22 A. I don't disagree with his proposal.

23 Q. You also stated that Sainovic reacted because of the funds from

24 western Europe that were used to procure KLA with weapons, but according

25 to his knowledge those funds had been defrosted, they were frozen, but --

Page 11882

1 and you can find it on the same page of the same document. And then Mr.

2 Walker said this: "I will speak to the international community about

3 preventing the purchase of arms. Bank assets need to be refrozen and Mr.

4 Walker says also: "I don't want the KLA buying more better weapons. I

5 will do something about this." And he also says: "Money, arms, people

6 cannot happen without organised support. We will do everything in our

7 power to stop the flow of arms. It is not in our interest to arm the KLA,

8 despite statements in the press about President Clinton wanting to topple

9 Milosevic. I will do what I can to find out about this."

10 Do you and Mr. Walker adhere by the statement that western money

11 was used to arm the KLA and that this wasn't good? So do you still agree

12 what you noted on that day, because this is very important for our

13 Defence?

14 A. Yes, I agree with the notes there.

15 Q. In your next note there's a meeting with Mr. Sainovic on 18

16 December, 1998. This is Exhibit 2D19, e-court page 2.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't know what Mr. Stamp has to say

18 to this. Okay. So we can still remain in open session.

19 Q. You said that Mr. Byrnes said this. Did you find it? Do you have

20 it on e-court. Let's just wait for a moment until the document is brought

21 up on the screen. Do you see it now? Mr. Byrnes says, second page, he

22 says this: "On police information, all is going well. However, we need

23 information one day earlier: With respect to cooperation with police, I

24 am very pleased it has been good."

25 And the most important thing is this: "I have felt very secure

Page 11883

1 with the MUP and protection of the Army of Yugoslavia."

2 Do you agree with Colonel Byrnes, that he as the personal advisor,

3 i.e., the head person of the KDOM, felt secure under the protection of the

4 MUP and the Yugoslav Army and that he did not need any other protection or

5 that you, as a whole, did not need any other protection?

6 MR. STAMP: It's just the way that the question is phrased that

7 I'm objecting to. I don't think he can comment on how Colonel Byrnes

8 felt, but perhaps the question is really directed towards whether or not

9 he is recording what Colonel Byrnes said.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the question is seeking the impression of

11 the witness himself because it goes on to say that he did not need any

12 other protection or that you as a whole did not need any other protection.

13 So it's your impression of that situation that you're being

14 asked to recount.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

16 This is Mr. Shaun Byrnes, not Colonel Byrnes because he was not a

17 military man. Is this the same Byrnes that we are referring to? The only

18 Byrnes that I know is Mr. Shaun Byrnes from the state department and you

19 referred to him as a Colonel Byrnes. I don't know a Colonel Byrnes.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Shaun Byrnes. I didn't say "colonel," I said Shaun Byrnes.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: The spelling of that name is B-y-r-n-e-s?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

Page 11884

1 Q. I found this in your notes. You noted that whoever said that

2 actually said it?

3 A. Well, I'm not disputing that, I just want to make sure that I'm

4 referring to the right individual as you place him.

5 Q. It's the same individual.

6 A. In regards to his feelings on the MUP and VJ protection, I have no

7 reason to dispute that he felt safe. I certainly -- you know, I was

8 fairly accurate in my notes with him. I know he roamed Kosovo with his

9 team before OSCE was established with little problem. I'm assuming that

10 he felt safe.

11 Q. Thank you. Then in your notes we find the meeting on the 14th

12 January 1999 with Mr. Sainovic. This is 2D20 page 1.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Can we have this on e-court. I see it

14 now.

15 Q. And it says in this document -- can you find the place where

16 Sainovic is speaking. He says: "Glad to be back at table; glad our

17 people were present at VJ site; communications were good, trust was

18 upgraded, nobody tried to test anybody, tensions were high, and we worked

19 well together. If we cooperate we can do more. If we do more we'll have

20 to do less and have fewer problems.

21 "We are pulling forces out of Podujevo.

22 "We need to protect the rights of civilians, they must have the

23 freedom of movement, et cetera. Malisevo is a good example where KVM

24 presence is making a big difference. A local police officer speaks both

25 languages is in place there. We must now follow the Podujevo and Malisevo

Page 11885

1 and Orahovac examples. Podujevo is a critical point now, and the security

2 situation must be followed very closely.

3 "We are trying to start new initiatives. I have met with Mr. Hill

4 twice and went to Vienna once. Our foreign minister went to Spain. We

5 are emphasising the importance of the political process.

6 "In Podujevo, a lot of families left Kosovo. Only a political

7 dialogue can take care of this. In both places the KLA and the VJ must

8 seek a political solution.

9 "We want to work on the main elements of agreement and,

10 Mr. Walker answers --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Time for a question, Mr. Fila. There's no need to

12 read all of this. If the witness confirms it's an accurate record, then

13 we can read it ourselves.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree. Thank you very much.

15 Q. You will agree with me that these notes show that the atmosphere

16 of the meeting was very good. This meeting took place after the soldiers

17 were liberated, if you remember, and the Yugoslav side wanted to make

18 up -- make the most of this opportunity to step-up the political dialogue.

19 And Mr. Walker, as you can see, shares this evaluation to a large extent.

20 Did this meeting show a sincere wish on part -- on the part of

21 Sainovic to resolve the situation through a political dialogue, that

22 political means should be used to deal with the issues?

23 A. My answer has got some complexity to it based on the timing, and I

24 would like an opportunity to work through this for just a moment. This

25 was on the 14th of January. This meeting was a rather warm meeting.

Page 11886

1 There was some elation about getting the VJ released. A current

2 underneath that was getting the KLA soldiers released. There was some

3 particular concern by Mr. Sainovic not to want to link the release of the

4 KLA of a fear to show weakness in the government and being easy on the

5 terrorist situation there.

6 If you recall, Racak occurred on the 15th of January, the next

7 day, and our observation was that the Serbs needed to make a point, an

8 example, at Racak that while we had release of the VJ that they would not

9 be easy on the KLA and what have you. So, you know, coming nine days

10 later, I believe, was the release of nine Albanians, nine KLA Albanians.

11 But the two or actually linked, and so it was -- it was more complex than

12 what the notes are explaining here.

13 Q. But the notes show optimism that prevailed at that meeting, and

14 there was optimism that there could be a political solution. I

15 apologise. Not only that, but also that a political solution is the only

16 possible solution. Isn't it true that this could be inferred from your

17 notes, and that this was the atmosphere of the meeting?

18 A. Yes, yeah.

19 Q. And, finally, something you said when we spoke about Sainovic's

20 place of birth, which is not important. You also spoke about what Kosovo

21 is, and you also explained that in answering Mr. Stamp's questions. Based

22 on everything you told us, based on Sainovic's behaviour, I would like to

23 ask you whether you have maybe mixed something up. The Serbian position

24 is that Kosovo is an integral part of Serbia, and I'm sure that Sainovic

25 must have told you this because this is a fact.

Page 11887

1 But what exactly did he tell you about the Albanian population

2 that resides on Kosovo? Did he tell you that Kosovo did not belong only

3 to Albanians, that it could not be independent? Would that be what

4 Sainovic meant? Can you please try and recall what exactly he told you

5 when he was speaking about finding a solution, a political solution, to

6 the issue of Kosovo.

7 And please try to make sure you use the right words because that's

8 very important.

9 A. I would tell you Mr. Sainovic was sincere about arriving at some

10 sort of a co-existence strategy for both the Serbian population and the

11 Albanian population to co-exist together. I hope that's clear enough for

12 you.

13 Q. Clear enough and I am very grateful, and I have no further

14 questions for you, sir.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

16 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Sepenuk:

18 Q. Good morning, Colonel.

19 A. Sir.

20 Q. I'm Norman Sepenuk, and I'm an attorney for General Ojdanic.

21 First of all, I don't think the record's clear what branch of the service

22 you were in when you were serving as Chief of Staff for Ambassador Walker.

23 Was it the air force?

24 A. Yes, sir, the US Air Force.

25 Q. Okay. And are you still a member of the US Air Force? Are you

Page 11888

1 currently in active duty?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And what's your current position?

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

5 MR. SEPENUK: That's not permitted?

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't think we need to go into that.

7 MR. SEPENUK: I'll withdraw that. Fine, I withdraw that.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you -- as I understand it, you were Chief of

9 Staff to Ambassador Walker during the period that we're talking about, and

10 that you kept substantially verbatim notes of meetings you had with the

11 general -- with the ambassador and other people; correct?

12 A. Yes, sir. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And the notes covered a period -- what period? Just tell

14 us the period covered by the notes.

15 A. I had approximately ten notebooks that covered approximately

16 October to July 3rd.

17 Q. October 1998 to July 3rd, 1999?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And we do have copies of your notebooks until February 18th, 1999,

20 and they cut off after that. Is there any particular reason for that,

21 that we don't have the remainder of your notebooks? There's a period

22 of -- you say the notebooks went to what period, March?

23 A. I took notes up until I left the area after we evacuated, March

24 20th. There were a couple of notebooks that went missing. I know for one

25 of certain and that was a notebook from the meetings with Mr. Milosevic.

Page 11889

1 That notebook disappeared. I have no idea why, where, who, but I can't

2 answer the question why they ended on February 18th.

3 Q. As far as you know, you did take notes during the period February

4 18th through March 20th?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: The date of the meeting that you say a note -- of

8 the notebook has gone missing.

9 THE WITNESS: One of my meetings with Mr. Milosevic.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know which one?

11 THE WITNESS: I can't recall exactly which one. I want to say,

12 sir, it was a December piece, but one of the notebooks I had was gone.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Sepenuk.

15 MR. SEPENUK: There is this one-month period that we don't have

16 and perhaps the Prosecution at the break we can confer about it because

17 I'm not sure why we don't have it.

18 THE WITNESS: I don't know why either.

19 MR. SEPENUK: Unless there's an answer now, Your Honour.

20 MR. STAMP: We've given everything we have. We collected the

21 notebooks that he had available and we disclosed them under the Rules.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: If -- if --

23 THE WITNESS: I could tell you, sir, that there was a point where

24 I ran out of paper and I was writing on the backs of maps and that sort of

25 thing and certainly I would not turn those things over.

Page 11890

1 JUDGE BONOMY: As you know, Mr. Sepenuk, it's a matter you can

2 raise with the Rule 70 provider, and if it emerges that there is other

3 material and it's permissible to use it then we've indicated what action

4 could be taken in these circumstances.

5 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. So, Colonel, I would like to go over some of the entries you made

7 in your notebooks and I'm going to speak very slowly so that if there is

8 any problem at all with any of the entries, Mr. Stamp will have an

9 opportunity to make that known and we can take care of that situation as

10 it arises.

11 So I'd like to start with the very early part of your notebook,

12 that's an entry for November 14th, 1998, it's 3D545 --

13 MR. STAMP: The difficulty now, Your Honours, is that it's

14 impossible to determine whether or not the extract which Mr. Sepenuk wants

15 to refer to is something that is permissible to be shown outside of this

16 courtroom because he has just put in the exhibit a whole batch of

17 material. It is not restricted to a page or two pages that is relevant,

18 as was done by the previous cross-examiner --

19 MR. SEPENUK: No, as a matter of fact this is -- this is about

20 three lines on one page --

21 MR. STAMP: Well --

22 MR. SEPENUK: That's all it is, Your Honour.

23 MR. STAMP: Well, we have about 30 pages for that exhibit.

24 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, but I excerpted only one very small part of

25 that, Your Honour.

Page 11891

1 MR. STAMP: The problem is that that is not what is going to be in

2 e-court as an exhibit and e-court will have a whole batch of pages which

3 could involve telephone numbers, material which clearly could not be

4 published outside of this courtroom.

5 MR. SEPENUK: And, Your Honour, if --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: There is a way of dealing with it if you just hold

7 on for a second.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The exhibits that have been used so far have not be

10 shown on the feed to the public, and therefore there is no risk that

11 inadvertently something will appear on a public screen. And if counsel

12 does as he has said he will do, which is deal with each one slowly, you

13 will have an opportunity of directing our attention to anything that

14 should not be exhibited. He started by referring there to the date, and

15 that would normally be some guide, I imagine, to whether it is something

16 that ought not to be exposed.

17 MR. STAMP: Very well, Your Honour.

18 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk.

20 MR. SEPENUK: And it's 3D545 and to make it more specific it's

21 3D01-2880. That's the specific page number.

22 Q. And this purports to be a discussion with Ambassador Hill and tell

23 us briefly who Ambassador Hill was?

24 A. Ambassador Hill --

25 MR. STAMP: Before, can we --

Page 11892

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP: -- Confer.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. STAMP: We have no objections.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Carry on, Mr. Sepenuk.

6 MR. SEPENUK: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. And, Colonel, just briefly, who was Ambassador Hill?

8 A. At the time he was the ambassador to Macedonia, and also -- I

9 guess the best way to describe him was kind of a Special Envoy for Kosovo.

10 Q. And he was active, was he not, at the time in trying to get the

11 Serb forces and the KLA together and work out some sort of an agreement or

12 at least the Serbian government --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the --

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And again, you are taking notes about this meeting. You are there

17 with Ambassador Hill and with Ambassador Walker; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And in this excerpt you say: "The KLA wants to dominate

20 the political landscape and use guns to do it."

21 And who said that?

22 A. Ambassador Hill said that.

23 Q. Okay. And were you aware that the KLA had threatened to kill

24 anyone who signed any agreement sponsored by Ambassador Hill. Were you

25 aware of that?

Page 11893

1 A. I don't recall the specifics. I remember something about it. I

2 wouldn't dispute that.

3 Q. General DZ actually submitted a statement in which he stated that.

4 A. Yeah, it sounds familiar to me. I can't be precise but --

5 Q. You don't dispute it?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Okay. And again in your notebook, 3D545, page number is

8 3D01-2885, a very short excerpt again. And I'll pause here in case

9 there's any problem.

10 Where you stated, and again this is Ambassador Walker speaking,

11 and it says: "Assertive verification is the right turn for KVM -- not

12 monitoring."

13 And do you recall that discussion?

14 A. I recall that statement, yes.

15 Q. Right. And do you -- what did Ambassador Walker mean, to the best

16 of your knowledge since you worked so closely together, by the term

17 "assertive verification"? What was he getting at there?

18 A. He wanted his verifiers to be aggressive in the sense of getting

19 into the village, talking to people, talking to the mayors, talking to the

20 leadership, to get a real ground truth of what was happening in the

21 villages.

22 Q. And speaking of assertive verification, do you count General

23 Drewienkiewicz, General DZ, as someone who also subscribed to that view?

24 A. Yes, sir, I would.

25 Q. And in your notes at 3D545, specific page number at the bottom

Page 11894

1 2901, which I refer you to, you said: "General" --

2 MR. STAMP: Can we pause?

3 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, please. Second paragraph.

4 Q. Do you see that there in the second paragraph: "General DZ was a

5 hard-nose, no-nonsense Brit." Have you picked that up, sir, second

6 paragraph?

7 A. I have, sir, but I've been asked to stand-by for a moment.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Sepenuk, life's too short for us to

10 proceed this way. The original order made was that reference to

11 documentary material which had been disclosed confidentially would be made

12 in closed session. You know how anxious we are to avoid closed session,

13 but it may be that it's the only practical way of dealing with this

14 without extending the session to double its normal length.

15 MR. SEPENUK: Right. Thank you. Unless I'm missing a point, this

16 material seems absolutely benign to me. I don't understand what the

17 problem is, frankly, but -- and perhaps the OTP can --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: But it does, I think, fall within the category of

19 confidential material, doesn't it? It was disclosed to you under Rule 70.

20 MR. SEPENUK: It was disclosed under Rule 70, yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: So it's covered by the order if there's insistence

22 upon it --

23 MR. STAMP: And the problem is that it's outside of the 65 ter

24 summary so we have to check every time, but Your Honour has already

25 addressed that. But we could do so.

Page 11895

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: We know that it's open to us to review the

3 transcript and make it public after the session is over, so I think to

4 expedite this we shall go into closed session as long as Mr. Sepenuk is

5 cross-examining on confidential material, and then we shall review the

6 transcript with a view to making it public thereafter. We shall resume

7 open session when we are no longer dealing with these confidential notes.

8 [Closed session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11896











11 Pages 11896-11958 redacted. Closed session















Page 11959

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.36 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of

25 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.