Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14230

1 Thursday, 23 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 [The witness entered court]


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp will now continue.

11 Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration you made at the beginning

12 of your evidence to tell the truth continues to apply to that evidence

13 today.

14 Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we show or have on the

16 e-court P2 -- sorry, P425.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]

18 Q. This, Mr. Jovanovic, is a document entitled"Proposals of Measures

19 Such as Current Problems in Kosovo and Metohija." It's a photocopy of a

20 booklet in our possession. Do you -- have you ever seen this document

21 before, a document of this nature before from the Provincial Board of the

22 SPS of Kosovo?

23 A. No, I've never seen this document before.

24 Q. Would the Provincial Board publish documents of this nature with

25 this recommendations for solutions to the problems in Kosovo and Metohija?

Page 14231

1 A. You mean would it publish such documents in public?

2 Q. Well, let's start with circulating among members of the party

3 itself; would it do that?

4 A. Yes. It's quite usual for Provincial Boards to have their own

5 documents and to distribute those in a written form to members of their

6 bodies.

7 Q. Do you see some handwriting on the top?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you recognise it?

10 A. No, I can't.

11 MR. STAMP: Can we move to page 2 of this document.

12 Q. Can you recognise the handwriting on the top there?

13 A. No, I can't.

14 Q. But I take it that you are familiar with documents like this,

15 documents of this nature?

16 A. I don't know what you mean by "this nature."

17 Q. By proposals from, for example, the Provincial Board of the party

18 in Kosovo in this format.

19 A. I'm unable to confirm about the format. I don't remember the form

20 and the appearance of those documents. I worked in the Main Board of the

21 SPS. I can't confirm whether this was the form used at the time.

22 MR. STAMP: Can we move to P810. This is -- these are some clips

23 from a video. Sorry. The exhibit is P2909, and these are clips from a

24 video which is P810, which I don't think is in evidence. What the clip

25 which I propose to tender is P2909.

Page 14232

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. STAMP: This -- sorry. Before we proceed, may I just indicate

3 to the Court, it's a video or clips from a speech of Mr. Seselj made in

4 1989, and the -- it will be translated as it goes on, as it is played.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying it's already part of the process?

6 MR. STAMP: Part of the evidence?


8 MR. STAMP: No. I don't think P810 has been tendered because it

9 is a long video, but I think bits and pieces of it might have been. What

10 we propose to do is to tender P2909, which are three small clips from what

11 is in fact a long video.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, proceed, please. Sorry, don't proceed.

13 Mr. Fila.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't oppose this as a matter of

15 principle. As usual, I am not inclined to oppose any moves by the OTP in

16 an effort to prove something, but what I do oppose is bits of a document

17 being tendered separately as a separate document.

18 I think Mr. Stamp should tender the entire video, long as it may

19 be, for us to see it. My fear is that some of these bits and excerpts

20 might be taken out of context and might mislead us in some way. So that

21 is the only remark that I would like to place on the record.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I think it will be our responsibility to

24 put before the Court the relevant part insofar as it is relevant to the

25 issues before the Court. The Defence has the entire thing, and like any

Page 14233

1 document they could use or proffer to the Court any part of that entire

2 thing or, indeed, the whole thing, if they think it would benefit the

3 Court from reviewing the whole thing.

4 But I don't think we had a responsibility to -- to just throw, as

5 it were, at the Court huge documents without trying to -- to extract the

6 relevant parts for the Court.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 Mr. O'Sullivan.

9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: There's one point. I believe Mr. Stamp said that

10 P810 is in evidence. I don't believe it is.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: He said it is not in evidence. If it says

12 otherwise on the transcript, it's different from what he actually told us.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what you propose is exactly what we've

15 invited the parties to do so far as possible in the case, and you should

16 proceed that way. It's for Mr. Fila, if he wishes, to explore other parts

17 of the video or, indeed, even invite us to view the whole video, but we

18 can deal with that in his re-examination.

19 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And finally, that which is our most

22 vulnerable point: The Kosovo-Metohija issue, the issue of the Albanian

23 separatist insurgency. The current military and police action in Kosovo

24 and Metohija succeeded in eliminating the most extreme aspects of Albanian

25 separatism and the repression of the Serbian population that lives there.

Page 14234

1 "But I'm convinced that a lasting solution cannot be achieved in

2 this way. In order to achieve the solution of Kosovo and Metohija issue,

3 I propose a new colonisation of Kosovo and Metohija."

4 "Applause."

5 MR. STAMP: Could we stop there. What I'm not sure of is if the

6 witness hearing the video in the original Serb language? Is the witness

7 hearing the video?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please ask him.


10 Q. Did you hear that, sir, in Serbian?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. STAMP: Could we move on to clip 2, please. Oh, could we

13 continue clip 1. I'm told that clip 1 is not finished yet.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "One should have no illusions about

16 the possibility of returning those Serbs who have left Kosovo and

17 Metohija, who have learned what it means to live with Albanians, a

18 primitive and uncivilised people, as their next-door neighbours, who made

19 it Belgrade and Serbia proper, found jobs there, built houses there, sent

20 their children to school there, about the possibility of returning them to

21 the nightmare of Kosovo and Metohija."

22 MR. STAMP: Could we now proceed to clip 2, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... Whether it is moved to

25 Pristina, Prizren, or some other place is not so important. What is

Page 14235

1 important is that by moving the capital, the state institutions would be

2 moved, all the state bodies and institutions, several hundred thousand

3 government employees and members of their families would be moved.

4 "In this way, the overall ethnic composition of the population of

5 Kosovo and Metohija would change in a significant way, and it would mean a

6 fresh financial injection, and the economic development of this depressed

7 region would accelerate."

8 MR. STAMP: Could we continue, please, to clip 3.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "What I think the most important of

11 all is this: I propose that all 360.000 Albanian immigrants who crossed

12 over into Serbia and Yugoslavia from Albania after the 6th of April, 1941

13 urgently be sent back to Albania and be delivered to the UN High

14 Commissioner for Refugees."

15 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

16 Q. You're a political scientist and a scholar. You told me earlier

17 that you were not aware that Mr. Seselj was proposing the deportation of

18 Albanians from Kosovo. Can I just ask you that a second time? As a

19 professional scholar in your field, and as somebody who participated in

20 the political life of your country for many years, were you not aware that

21 Mr. Seselj was proposing the deportation of Albanians from Kosovo as the

22 solution to the problems in Kosovo?

23 MR. LUKIC: May I object, Your Honour. I'm sorry. This is not my

24 witness, but this is not correct representation of the evidence.

25 Mr. Seselj was proposing to deport Albania Albanians from Kosovo

Page 14236

1 who does not have proper papers to live in this country, and he continued

2 the next --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, I don't think that that sort of

4 information in an objection is appropriate with the witness present in

5 court.

6 MR. LUKIC: But we heard it on that video.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he will be able to deal with that himself,

8 but the question is quite clear: "Were you not aware that Mr. Seselj was

9 proposing the deportation of Albanians from Kosovo as the solution to the

10 problems in Kosovo?" And that's perfectly consistent with what you've

11 just said, and if the witness wants to explain more, that's for him.

12 MR. LUKIC: We have to divide Albanians from Albania and Albanians

13 from Kosovo. He mentioned Albanians from Albania, not from Kosovo.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed.

15 MR. LUKIC: But the question should be composed in that way. Not

16 just Albanians. We have to --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the whole matter's been so disrupted. This

18 has been a quite inappropriate intervention without the witness being

19 asked to leave the court. The whole point is now defeated in this piece

20 of cross-examination.

21 MR. LUKIC: But the question --

22 JUDGE BONOMY: But the question in English, it may be different in

23 Serbia, but in English, it is not suggested that these are Kosovo

24 Albanians.

25 MR. LUKIC: But not either suggested that they were Albania

Page 14237

1 Albanians.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: It just says "Albanians."

3 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. That should be specified --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What's wrong with --

5 MR. LUKIC: It should be --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: There is nothing --

7 MR LUKIC: Because the question talked --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Please sit down. Your objection is repelled.

9 Please continue, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, I think I will not go down that road any further.

12 Can I just ask you this: You told us earlier that you agreed with

13 Mr. Seselj that a lot of the Albanians in Kosovo were not Kosovo

14 Albanians; they were migrants. Can I ask you this: Do you agree with

15 Mr. Seselj that these --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Allow --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- him to finish the question.


20 Q. -- that these so-called Albania Albanians should be sent back to

21 Albania?

22 A. First of all, in your question, there is a statement that is

23 factually untrue. I don't remember ever agreeing with that position you

24 mentioned while I was answering your questions yesterday. So may that

25 please be checked first of all.

Page 14238

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand what it is you say you don't

2 ever remember agreeing. What is it you say --

3 MR. STAMP: My recollection is that he -- when I put to him that

4 Mr. Seselj had said that many of the Albanians in Albania were migrants --

5 sorry, many of the Albanians in Kosovo were migrants from Albania and were

6 not in fact Kosovar, he agreed that Mr. Seselj was correct on that.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And do you have a reference for that?

8 MR. STAMP: At 14223, line 14, 15, from line 15, question: "Are

9 you not aware that Mr. Seselj claimed that there were hundreds of

10 thousands of Albanians living in Kosovo who were not from Kosovo?

11 Answer: "I am aware of that claim and that is a true fact."

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, does that help you, Mr. Jovanovic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that definitely helps.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you now deal with the question that's been

15 asked, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a well-known fact that, over

17 several decades, people were crossing into Kosmet from Albania in a bid to

18 flee from the horrifying conditions under Enver Hodja's regime, and that

19 is how many Albanians from Albania arrived in Kosovo and Metohija. They

20 were never properly registered. If I may --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: If you would just deal with the question. I mean,

22 do you agree with Mr. Seselj that those who were not Kosovo Albanians but

23 migrants should be sent back?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I do not agree that this

25 should be done by force; but as any other country, I believe we should

Page 14239

1 protect our position by dealing with those citizens who don't have proper

2 papers, regular papers, as any country would through a regular procedure

3 and send them back to their own home countries.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you aware of Mr. Seselj advocating this

5 position?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm aware of this position.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: And, yesterday, you weren't aware of it; is that

8 correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just seen the footage, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Had you forgotten about it or was this new to you

12 or what?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's new to me. I've just seen the

14 recording, and I don't remember that statement originally being made or

15 taped like this. And could I please have the year for this recording? I

16 would really find that very helpful.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Counsel said "1989."

18 Mr. Stamp.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. Just a

21 minute. I think that yesterday the witness said that he was aware of

22 Seselj making those statements. I will go back through the transcript

23 myself to check.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help us on the transcript, Mr. Stamp.

25 MR. STAMP: Yes. My recollection is that he said that he did

Page 14240

1 not -- was not aware, and it's at 14223.

2 Question: "Are you aware that for" -- sorry, I beg your pardon.

3 "Are you aware that Mr. Seselj had proposed expulsion of some Albanians

4 from Kosovo." And he answered: "I'm not I wear of that."

5 JUDGE BONOMY: It seems to be clear enough, Mr. Fila.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no. I'll check, Your Honour, but I

7 think he said he knew about Seselj requesting that those people be

8 expelled.


10 Q. That position that you just took, Witness, shall we say the status

11 of these people that moved across the border and were living in Kosovo for

12 decades should be regularised, you're saying not by force, but that

13 position which you are saying is your position, was that a position which

14 by the latter half of 1998 many senior persons in your party had begun to

15 adopt, undertake? The same position that you just advocated here?

16 A. I don't remember an official position by the SPS confirming that

17 the Albanians who had crossed over into Kosmet illegally from Albania

18 should be expelled, should be sent back by force, nor was that a subject

19 that was ever discussed by the party, at least not as far as my knowledge

20 goes.

21 Q. I take it that your employment by the SPS as an expert was based

22 not only on your political skills and training but also your world view,

23 your political philosophy, then, could I say?

24 A. One's own world view is one thing. The other thing is what your

25 employer may or may not choose to adopt and include in their official

Page 14241

1 documents.

2 Q. Well, that is precisely the point. Some things were in official

3 documents and some things were not. Well, I guess that's a statement.

4 MR. STAMP: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Just before you re-examine.

6 Mr. Lukic, is there anything arising out of this that you think

7 needs to be clarified from your point of view?

8 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. I just wanted to point out the

9 differences in between the question and what Mr. Seselj said.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I --

11 MR. LUKIC: I have nothing further. Thank you.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: I simply invite you in future to do it in a more

13 subtle way. As it turns out, no damage was done in this instance, but it

14 can be done because the result of the objection can be to alert the

15 witness to a point that perhaps would not otherwise have occurred to him;

16 and, therefore, if there's a risk of that, you should invite us to ask the

17 witness to leave the courtroom.

18 MR. LUKIC: I apologise. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 Mr. Fila.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Fila:

22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Can we please first have P425. This is

23 an OTP document that was just shown a minute ago. Can we please have page

24 1 back on our screens.

25 Q. You see what the Prosecutor warned you about? It says: "Crime at

Page 14242

1 Pec, the 14th of December, 1998." Do you remember anything like this in

2 Pec in the Panda Cafe, six Serbs being murdered there on that day?

3 Teenagers, young Serbs.

4 A. Yes. I remember that a bomb was thrown into that cafe and six

5 young people were killed?

6 Q. Could be this be in reference to that crime, unless of course the

7 claim is being made that the Serbs were simply killing themselves, because

8 that was also something we heard?

9 A. It's entirely possible that this note is in reference to that

10 crime and the date is quite specific.

11 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. Are you aware at all of the fact that

12 Seselj gave all sorts of statements from the moment he became the

13 president of the Radical Party? What sort of statements being made by him

14 do you remember?

15 A. Well, look, this is a very long period and there were different

16 statements. Some were very inflammatory. Of course, that does not mean

17 that we, as a political party, accepted that what Mr. Seselj as the

18 president of the Serb Radical Party said, especially when we were in

19 coalition. As is well known, politicians say all sorts of things in

20 public. So the Socialist Party of Serbia called Mr. Seselj and the Serb

21 Radical Party "fascists," and Mr. Seselj and his party called our party

22 "traitors." Nevertheless, we formed a coalition government in the

23 interest of defending state and national interests.

24 In the official positions of the government, and in terms of what

25 the official authorities did, there is not a single act or a political

Page 14243

1 position that would mean violently resolving the problem in Kosovo or

2 taking any kind of forceful or illegal action against the overall

3 population in this province of ours.

4 Q. Thank you. You saw the footage, and the Prosecutor says that is

5 in 1989. That's about ten years before the things for which we are

6 sitting in this courtroom happened. If you saw this footage, well, is

7 this some kind of a political party manifestation? Is it in the United

8 Nations? What does this look like to you? Or should we play the footage

9 for you again?

10 A. It is very thankless to comment on something that is taken out of

11 context. That is the first matter I wish to refer to.

12 Secondly, I did see the video clip but it's very blurred.

13 Thirdly, on the basis of what is seen on the video clip, it is

14 possible that he's speaking in front of a small number of people in a

15 small office, and, obviously, this is a gathering of his political party

16 or for promotion purposes. In terms of the setting, as far as we can see

17 from the video clip, it is by no means official premises or public

18 premises.

19 Q. Will you remember that, in his public statements, Seselj insulted

20 President Milosevic, his wife, his children, you, all of you? What were

21 all the things he said? Don't hesitate. We have to see how serious

22 statements made by such a specimen of the human race are.

23 A. Mr. Seselj used very ugly and insulting expressions for our

24 president, Slobodan Milosevic, and for his wife, calling her the "Red

25 Witch," insulting his children. As for the arsenal of insults thrown at

Page 14244

1 the Socialist Party of Serbia, it was wide-ranging. Most serious were

2 these words about betraying state and national interests.

3 Q. How did you betray state and national interests?

4 A. Specifically, it was said when the Dayton peace agreement was

5 signed, he and his party opposed that, and they were in fierce opposition

6 to that, to the Socialist Party of Serbia in that period. This was

7 uttered not at some party gatherings but in an Official Note in parliament

8 when the Serb Radical Party initiated proceedings to have the government

9 replaced.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter did not

11 hear Mr. Fila's question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Dayton Accords have to do with

13 peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 May I answer? It is well-known that we practically accepted and

15 supported all peace agreements that were being offered for

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And he called that treason?

19 A. He called that treason.

20 Q. What was his characterisation of the Kumanovo agreement?

21 A. The Serb Radical Party and Mr. Seselj were against the Kumanovo

22 agreement, and, practically, they boycotted the work of the Assembly then

23 and they did not vote to support the Kumanovo agreement.

24 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something now, Mr. Jovanovic, because

25 you got all these fabulous compliments from the Prosecutor that you were a

Page 14245

1 political scientist, a scholar, that you were involved in the field of

2 scholarly studies.

3 When you said all of this what Seselj said about the Socialist

4 Party of Serbia, that your president was insulted, his wife, the party,

5 does that mean coalition when you -- do you accept all of that that is

6 said by your coalition partners?

7 A. We absolutely did not accept such positions. But when -- if

8 political parties were to look at what they were saying about one another,

9 then it would be very hard to form a coalition government in any country.

10 Q. Did you accept his extremist views in relation to Kosovo or

11 anything else, as the Prosecutor says, either in the documents or de facto

12 or both?

13 A. We did not accept extremist views, not only of the Serb Radical

14 Party but of any other party. We had a clearly defined policy based on a

15 political solution by peaceful means with the full equality of all ethnic

16 communities. We insisted on that to the very end, and this is contained

17 in state documents. It is clear that in this way we suppressed the

18 extremist views that did exist in the public.

19 Q. Now I would like to ask you to -- do you still have that? Oh,

20 yes. Tab 12.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you move to a different subject, there are a

22 couple of issues to be clarified.

23 Can you give me an example of Mr. Seselj's extremist views on

24 Kosovo?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard for me to remember now

Page 14246

1 and to interpret some statements without being complete. In part of this

2 video footage, we saw that he advocated a fast resolution of the Kosovo

3 problem by radical means, but this was more rhetorical rather than being

4 translated into any kind of concrete action.

5 If I may, I would like to explain. We had formed a government

6 with the Serb Radical Party; but at the same time, as regards Kosmet, we

7 talked to those who attacked our country, killed our citizens, and carried

8 out terrorist actions; that is to say, that the fact that we talked to the

9 extremists does not mean that we accepted their positions and their

10 policy.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if you would answer my question, please,

12 and give me an example of an extremist position taken by Mr. Seselj in

13 relation to Kosovo.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now I cannot remember a

15 specific example and take it out of context.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give us an example of an extremist position

17 he took when you were in coalition that your party did not accept, on any

18 matter?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already mentioned the

20 non-acceptance of the Kumanovo agreement. He had rejected that document,

21 and they did not support it in parliament.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: And remind us of the date of the Kumanovo

23 agreement.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was sometime in March. It was

25 sometime around the 75th day of the bombing if you start counting from the

Page 14247

1 24th of March. I do not recall the exact date.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And what did that do to the coalition?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Seselj left the coalition.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: So let's look at a situation where in the currency

5 of the coalition Mr. Seselj adopted an extremist position which your party

6 would not accept. Give me an example of him doing that on any subject at

7 all. Take the world as your oyster.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand the question.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll repeat it. Let's look at a situation where

10 during the coalition Mr. Seselj adopted an extremist position which your

11 party would not accept on any subject at all. It doesn't need to be

12 confined to Kosovo.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were different examples

14 related to legislation from the field of employment, the taxation system,

15 the budget, but it is only natural that in a coalition one partner may

16 propose something but the other partner doesn't have to support it

17 necessarily.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, this is about extremist positions,

19 not about normal political disagreement. Please confine your answer to an

20 extremist position that Mr. Seselj has taken, something that is

21 universally unacceptable.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall any such statement

23 now.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So, in his political life, Mr. Seselj's activities

25 and his positions were, in your opinion, all reasonable.

Page 14248

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not what I said. I said

2 that I cannot remember any extremist positions.


4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I'm trying to be helpful. Did Mr. Seselj mention Mount

6 Prokletija, and that you did not accept something in relation to that?

7 A. Yes. There was a statement of that nature, that the Siptars

8 should be sent to the other side of Mount Prokletija. Of course, we did

9 not accept that or any other such positions, but it is hard for me to

10 remember them now and to locate them in a time that would be relevant to a

11 narrower area because there are many events and many things that were

12 referred to.

13 Q. Was a border mentioned that would not be in keeping with Dayton,

14 Karlovac, Karlobag?

15 A. Yes. Mr. Seselj's standard statement that the western boundary

16 should be along that line that you referred to.

17 Q. Did you accept that position?

18 A. Of course, we did not. We supported peace agreements for Croatia

19 and for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. In your view, would these be examples of extremist views, what was

21 referred to just now?

22 A. Yes. These are examples of extremist views that we did not

23 accept.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you actually saying that after Dayton, during

Page 14249

1 the coalition, the Serb Radical Party position was that the border had

2 been wrongly defined and should be changed?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is such a position.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: And you were able to remain in coalition with a

5 party that thought that the border should be changed?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We managed to, because we did not

7 accept such a position, and it was not official state policy.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Fila.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I can go on until tomorrow morning listing all of these positions,

12 but these two will do. Now I would like to move on to something else.

13 Please look at tab 12, 1D91. Please look at item 3. It says

14 there that "competent state authorities will organise as soon as

15 possible." Could you read it out now?

16 A. Give me the page.

17 Q. Well, we'll have a look. It's hard for me to do everything at the

18 same time. So tab 12.

19 MR. STAMP: I think that if counsel proposes to ask questions

20 about a document that I didn't ask questions about, then perhaps he should

21 preface what he's doing by indicating how it arises in re-examination.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: How does that arise, Mr. Fila?

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

24 Q. It says there that the "competent state authorities ..." --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, there's been an intervention asking you

Page 14250

1 to explain how this document can be explored on a matter that arises out

2 of cross-examination. What is it that Mr. Stamp raised that you are

3 dealing with by referring to this document?

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I am now going to resolve that straight

5 away. Sorry. I was dealing with something else. I didn't hear you. It

6 has to do with the census, the population census. Look at what I'm

7 talking about. Mr. Stamp raised the question of the Albanian population,

8 the census, and so on. So that's it. I simply didn't hear you.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all he wanted, an indication of the subject.

10 Please continue.

11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. It is stated there that the state organs would carry out a census

13 under the supervision of the OSCE. Why was a census needed, and was it

14 supposed to be carried out before the elections? That is why you need to

15 look at item 4 as well, and to explain all of that to us.

16 A. The census was needed because in Kosmet, in all the censuses that

17 were carried out from 1948 and then 1953 and then 1961 and then 1971, and

18 especially 1981, there were serious objections raised in terms of forging

19 the results of these censuses. That is why we advocated having the census

20 carried out under the auspices of the OSCE, so that, once and for all,

21 there would be the most precise information possible about population

22 numbers and the representation of different ethnic communities in Kosovo.

23 In the very last document that the Prosecution showed me, in the

24 English language, there is a reference to Albanians constituting 81 per

25 cent of the population. The federal statistics office in the officially

Page 14251

1 published study related to the census, in the methodological notes, it

2 explicitly states that they tried to prevent a boycott of the census, that

3 they contacted the Academy of Sciences of Kosovo and Metohija, that they

4 contacted political parties in Kosovo and Metohija, and that they made

5 certain reservations and set certain pre-conditions for their support of

6 the census.

7 Their conditions related to the following: "Mixed composition of

8 the census teams that would visit households." That was accepted.

9 "Bilingual census materials," which was also accepted. "Control and

10 verification when processing the data," which was also accept. However,

11 in spite of the fact that these positions were accepted, they boycotted

12 the 1991 census.

13 Now look at this. This is what statistics officially say: "We

14 made an estimate on the basis of the data from 1981, and there is a

15 serious suspicion that the data in 1981 were forged in the following way:

16 The census was carried out without any kind of control by the provincial

17 statistics office, and, abruptly, there was a disappearance of Roma and

18 then the Turks from the statistics data; then Muslims, then Egyptians."

19 You now have information from 1991 and --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you need all this information?

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, please control the witness --

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: It is difficult for me to judge what is necessary

25 for your case, so please exercise control over his answers.

Page 14252

1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. It was my wish to establish why in that agreement you asked for

3 the census to be carried out under OSCE supervision. Could you give a

4 shorter answer? What was the reason?

5 A. The first reason was to establish as objectively as possible facts

6 related to population numbers and their ethnic composition. The second

7 one was to prepare voting lists because elections were supposed to be

8 held.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Interpreters did not hear

10 Mr. Fila.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within nine months' time, free and

12 fair elections would be held for all organs in Kosovo and Metohija, and

13 this document envisages that the government of the Federal Republic of

14 Yugoslavia called upon the OSCE to supervise these elections.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. During the census, would only those who have proof of citizenship

17 of the province of Serbia and Yugoslavia and so on be registered?

18 A. Absolutely. What would be established would be the exact number

19 of inhabitants according to these documents.

20 Q. Please look at tab 13 now. The same subject like the previous.

21 This is an agreement dated the 15th of March, 1999. It's a

22 Defence exhibit, 2D384. Please look at chapter 3. Does this envisage a

23 census done jointly with the OSCE?

24 A. Yes. Here, there are three points stating that: "The competent

25 state organs together with the OSCE will," it says here "as soon as

Page 14253

1 possible, make it possible to contact an objective and free census which

2 will ..." --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: You've answered the question. If Mr. Fila wants

4 more information, he'll ask you for it.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Does that mean that the institutions in Kosovo and Metohija would

7 be established in the manner proposed in this agreement, regardless of

8 whether someone thought there were so many of those and so many of the

9 other ones?

10 A. Absolutely. The institutions would be set up according to the

11 results of the census which would be conducted.

12 Q. And would then all these claims about the numbers of Albanians,

13 Serbs, and other groups then be superfluous if a census were carried out

14 under the supervision and with the monitoring of the OSCE?

15 A. I'm convinced the answer is yes.

16 Q. And would then, in your view, this topic be forever closed about

17 the number of citizens of this or that ethnicity or religion?

18 A. I don't think it would be closed for good, because passions are

19 involved mere, but the results would be questions would be objective and

20 acceptable to all sides.

21 Q. Did our side ask for that?

22 A. Yes. Our side asked for that then, and our government is still

23 insisting on it today because a census has not been conducted yet

24 according to these criteria.

25 Q. And, finally, the Prosecutor and also His Honour the Presiding

Page 14254

1 Judge dealt with the issue of confidence. The co-presidents, Mr. Vedrine

2 and Cook, did they hand that document over to the Albanians? And you then

3 said that you had no reason not to believe he did, because they gave you

4 documents from the Albanians.

5 I would like to delve a little deeper into this. How did you find

6 out whether the other side, which was sending you these documents through

7 Messrs. Vedrine and Cook, was receiving the documents? How did you come

8 by this information?

9 A. Their replies were conveyed by the negotiating troika.

10 Ambassadors Hill, Mayorski, and the Albanian delegation stated publicly

11 their attitude to the documents they received, and that's how we learned

12 about it.

13 Q. Can you assert with certainty that the Albanian side was familiar

14 with all the attempts being made by our side?

15 A. I'm absolutely sure that the Albanian side was acquainted with the

16 contents of our document in full.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That concludes my -- my examination.

19 Thank you --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Re-examination.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.

22 Mr. Jovanovic, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming

23 to the Tribunal to give it. You're now free to leave the courtroom.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Before proceeding to the next witness, let me raise

Page 14255

1 one administrative matter. There is a motion before the Trial Chamber, at

2 the instance of the accused Lukic, to bar the Prosecution from

3 interviewing any of the Defence witnesses. The Chamber propose having a

4 hearing on this to explore certain issues with the parties, but also to

5 hear any further submissions that they wish to make.

6 I'm giving you notice of this, at the moment, so that you can be

7 prepared for it, because it may be fixed at very short notice. What we'll

8 try to do is not intrude upon the sitting times for taking evidence, and

9 there may be a measure of flexibility about the available time next week.

10 So please be prepared for that at short notice.

11 Your next witness now, Mr. Fila.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my next witness is Andreja

13 Milosavljevic.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would like to take this opportunity

16 to thank Mr. Hannis for his great assistance in having Mr. Vasiljevic

17 appear on videolink on the 29th. As you saw, I was right when I thought

18 the right man had to be asked.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 [The witness entered court]


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning Mr. Milosavljevic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

Page 14256

1 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

2 you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated. You will now be

6 examined by Mr. Fila on behalf of Mr. Sainovic.

7 Mr. Fila.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like the witness to

9 be given and bundle of exhibits, and for the Prosecutor, please.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Give praise to the Prosecutor with one hand,

11 Mr. Fila, and take the legs away from him with the other.

12 Very well. Please proceed.

13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, but I have given him a copy.

14 Very Christian on my part.

15 Examination by Mr. Fila:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, are you all right?

17 A. Yes, relatively.

18 Q. You are the oldest witness who has been here to date, so we will

19 understand that.

20 A. Well, 71, that's quite a lot.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm now asking myself whether you're the oldest in

22 the courtroom though. We have never found out the answer to that

23 question.

24 Please continue.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, the Defence is stronger there.

Page 14257

1 Mr. Sep -- is quite old.

2 Q. Will you please give us your full name, and then tell us about

3 your career.

4 A. My name is Andreja Milosavljevic. I was born in October 1936 in

5 the municipality of Zagubica, Serbia. I completed primary school in my

6 native Krpoljin, the secondary school in Petrovac Na Mlavi, and the

7 Faculty of Law in Belgrade. I retired as a misdemeanors judge. I was

8 also deputy president of a municipality. I was --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, it is quite important to perhaps

11 speak a little more slowly than you would normally do because everything

12 has to be translated, and the interpreter has to have an opportunity of

13 picking it all up.

14 It's also helpful if you can just pause after the questions asked

15 to allow that to be translated before you answer, so that we can develop a

16 routine here which will ensure that everything is properly translated.

17 Mr. Fila.

18 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

19 Q. It's not on the record, Mr. Milosavljevic, so we will repeat. You

20 say you graduated from the Faculty of Law. You were a misdemeanors judge.

21 That's how far we've got. Then you were a secretary?

22 A. The secretary of the Municipal Assembly of Zagubica, the president

23 of Zagubica municipality in several terms of office, director of the

24 Jasenovac coal mine in Krpoljin, managing director of the cast factory in

25 Zagubica, minister in the government of the Republic of Serbia, and

Page 14258

1 president of the Committee for Establishing Damage from Natural Disasters.

2 Q. At the level of the Republic of Serbia?

3 A. Yes, at republican level.

4 Q. In what period of time were you a minister in the government of

5 the Republic of Serbia?

6 A. I was a minister in the government of the Republic of Serbia

7 tasked with development and reconstruction and promoting local

8 self-management in the period from March 1994 to March 1998, throughout

9 this term of office. I was also Minister of Religions in the period of

10 September 1997 to the end of March 1998.

11 Q. And, in that period, did the government appoint you president of

12 the Committee for Establishing Damage caused by Natural Disasters?

13 A. When the government was appointed, I was -- from that time, I was

14 president of the Commission for Establishing Damage Caused by Natural

15 Disasters, and I was re-elected president of the commission in -- at the

16 end of April 1998.

17 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, did you go to Kosovo and Metohija before 1998?

18 A. Yes. As the director of the cast factory in Zagubica, in the

19 1980s, I would go to Janjevo, which is close to Pristina, to visit the

20 Metalac factory, because we had similar programmes and similar production

21 lines. I would go there to obtain raw materials, tools, and semi-finished

22 products.

23 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, you've been -- you've lived for quite a long

24 time, so if we were to go through your entire CV, it would take a long

25 time. So as minister?

Page 14259

1 A. As minister in charge of local self-administration, I often had

2 occasion to go to Kosovo and Metohija in order to deal with important

3 issues falling under the competence of the republic. These were issues of

4 functioning, funding, the work of the administrative organs, and so on and

5 so forth. I was especially tasked with establishing the reasons for the

6 setting up of municipal councils in the municipalities where elections had

7 not been held or had been held but were irregular, and then the government

8 of the Republic of Serbia established municipal councils whose task was to

9 replace the work of the Municipal Assembly and its Executive Committee.

10 In these municipalities, the citizens did not turn up to vote, and

11 that's why the organs were not elected. The government of the republic,

12 in compliance with the Law on the Territorial Organisation of the Republic

13 of Serbia and local self-administration and the provisions contained in

14 Article 45 and 64(A) of this law, was duty-bound to set up these municipal

15 councils so that the municipalities could continue to function.

16 I can enumerate some municipalities, such as Glogovac, Decani,

17 Stimlje, and so on.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this information we need to have?

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, but it's hard to stop him.

20 Q. And when you were president of the Commission for Repairing Damage

21 from Natural Disasters, did you visit Kosovo?

22 A. Yes, on several occasions.

23 Q. Did you hold any positions such as president of a management board

24 at that time?

25 A. In 1997, I was appointed president of the management board of one

Page 14260

1 of the largest companies in Kosovo and Metohija, Feronikel from Glogovac,

2 which employed 1.800 personnel, 85 per cent of whom were Albanians.

3 Q. And did this complex have any difficulties in doing business?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Please, when I put my question, look at your screen; and when you

6 see the writing stopping, that's the time to start answering. I do the

7 same.

8 So did the Feronikel company, of which you were the president of

9 the management board, run into difficulties, and how did it solve these?

10 A. Well, precisely. Because it had great difficulties, there were

11 frequent meetings of the management board with a view to finding adequate

12 solutions. Tasks were handed out, new decisions had to be reached, debts

13 had to be rescheduled. Production had to go on because the state was very

14 interested in these products as almost a hundred per cent of our products

15 were exported.

16 Q. And how was this solved?

17 A. Well, attempts were made to solve of it. All decisions were is

18 made on time, funds were found, and the company continued working;

19 although, there were problems there, averages and so on.

20 Q. Did you become involved in solving the problems of other

21 producers?

22 A. Yes, Trepca and so on.

23 Q. All right. Can we, therefore, conclude that the conditions and

24 problems in Kosovo and Metohija were something you were familiar with,

25 quite well, in fact?

Page 14261

1 A. Quite well. Yes, I'd put it that way.

2 Q. Fine. During your time in Kosovo, did you take part in any

3 negotiations about Kosovo and Metohija as a member of the negotiating team

4 led by Ratko Markovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please, before you answer, look at 1D78.

7 A. Yes. This is --

8 Q. Can I ask my question first, please. 1D78. Can you tell us what

9 this is about, sir?

10 A. This is a statement made by the Information of Ministry of the

11 government of the Republic of Serbia, saying that at its session, dated

12 the 10th of March, 1998, the government appointed its representatives for

13 talks with the leaders of the Albanian parties and associations.

14 Q. Who were the members of this negotiating team?

15 A. On behalf of the government, heading the delegation was Professor

16 Ratko Markovic, and the delegation also comprised three of the government

17 ministers: Minister Vico, Mr. Sedlak, and myself.

18 Q. What was the reason for the cabinet deciding to send you there.

19 A. We wanted to have a dialogue. The cabinet was in favour of that.

20 It was in favour of using political means to deal with problems, because

21 what depended on this were the human civil rights of all of those in

22 Kosovo, as well as issues connected with the economic --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note; could the speakers please

24 not overlap. Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the constitution of Serbia was

Page 14262

1 used as a framework for these talks, as well as international and European

2 standards; the UN charter; the Paris charter of the OSCE; there was the

3 Helsinki final act; and the framework convention of the Council of Europe

4 on ethnic issues -- or rather, ethnic minorities, the protection of ethnic

5 minorities.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you go there a number of times, and did any representatives of

8 Albanian majority parties ever turn up at these meetings?

9 A. Yes. I did go a number of times with this delegation. I went to

10 these talks, and as far as I remember, seven or eight times. Once the new

11 cabinet had been set up, the new negotiating team was established and I

12 was no longer a member.

13 Q. And the new cabinet was elected when?

14 A. Late March 1998. Albanian majority parties did not go to those

15 meetings. Some other ethnic groups were represented: The Roma, the

16 Gorani, and so on and so forth. We talked several times. We talked to

17 whoever was there, but we went no further than that.

18 Q. What do you mean by that; "we went no further than that"?

19 A. What I mean is the majority parties of the Albanians would not

20 turn up for these talks. We would just go there and then we would leave.

21 Q. To what position were you appointed in June 1998?

22 A. Early in June 1998, I was appointed coordinator of the state

23 bodies in Kosovo and Metohija.

24 Q. Which state?

25 A. The Republic of Serbia.

Page 14263

1 Q. And your task was to do what?

2 A. To coordinate the work of all state organs, state bodies, and to

3 implement measures and any policies pursued by the government of the

4 Republic of Serbia based on any enactments adopted, and so on and so

5 forth. Already decrees adopted.

6 Q. To coordinate the work of all state bodies in Kosovo and Metohija,

7 you say, and to work in line with which legal enactments?

8 A. The constitution and all the positive laws and any decrees adopted

9 by the government of the Republic of Serbia.

10 Q. The objective being what?

11 A. The objective was for all of the state bodies to work smoothly

12 with no interruptions or irregularities and to have a normal life in

13 Kosovo and Metohija, for life to go on as usual.

14 Q. Could you now please go to exhibit -- or rather, a proposed

15 Defence Exhibit, 2D136. Have you found it, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you look at it carefully and slowly -- go through it slowly

18 and tell me when I can start asking my questions.

19 A. Fire away.

20 Q. Can you have a look, please, first?

21 A. No need. I know this.

22 Q. The first document --

23 A. The first document.

24 Q. The first document is a different document; right?

25 A. No, no, no, no. What I have is the deputy Secretary-General, Mira

Page 14264

1 Djurekovic.

2 Q. Take it easy, please. Whose document is this?

3 A. The government of the Republic of Serbia.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters didn't

5 hear the question.

6 Q. And this deputy General-Secretary, Mira Djurekovic, is informing

7 you about what?

8 A. About the fact that I was appointed coordinator of the work of

9 state bodies in Kosovo and Metohija --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have that --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] - adopted by the prime minister of

12 the Republic of Serbia.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- on the screen because it doesn't appear to be in

14 the bundle.

15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This is 2D356.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: That is in the bundle. Thank you.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, please, can you wait until after I have

19 finished asking my question, and then there's the interpretation, and then

20 please steadily. We're in no hurry at all. This is not a sprinting

21 competition, sir.

22 Could you now please look at the next document. What does this

23 document say?

24 A. This document tells me that I am hereby appointed coordinator of

25 the work of state organs or bodies of the Republic of Serbia in Kosovo and

Page 14265

1 Metohija. It specifies my tasks. It says here that: "Andreja

2 Milosavljevic shall coordinate the work of all state organs in Kosovo and

3 Metohija, proceeding from their rights and duties as laid down in the

4 constitution and the law. He shall be required to report directly to me

5 on the work of these organs at least once a week."

6 Q. Who adopted this decision, and who is the person that you are

7 supposed to be reporting to at least once a week?

8 Can you please wait for the interpretation. Can you follow the

9 interpretation on the transcript. Once the letters stop appearing, please

10 start with your answer.

11 A. This decision was adopted by the prime minister of the Republic of

12 Serbia, Mr. Mirko Marjanovic, in June, more specifically, the 3rd of June,

13 1998.

14 Q. He so who are you supposed to be reporting to?

15 A. To him. That's what it says.

16 Q. Can you go to our third document now. It reads "Republic of

17 Serbia." So what's this about?

18 A. This is --

19 Q. Slowly, please.

20 A. This is a copy of a document that I received from most of the

21 ministries, informing me about the responsibilities of the certain

22 officials, certain persons, who it says would be in touch with me in

23 situations where the minister himself was to remain in contact.

24 In this specific case, there's the Ministry of Finance nominating

25 three persons, or rather, the deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. Golic, and

Page 14266

1 two assistants, one in charge of funding local self-administration and one

2 in charge of matters regarding to the entire system.

3 Q. You said that this was some sort of a pattern, a copy, a model, if

4 you like, a model document. It is a model document, in a manner of

5 speaking, but what exactly do you mean by that? Can you explain that?

6 A. What I mean is: I would receive information and reports from

7 other ministries that were just like this. I mean, the substance was very

8 much like this.

9 Q. Does this mean that all of the ministries were represented and all

10 of the ministries were helping you along? Most of the ministries at

11 least.

12 A. Precisely. I wasn't in touch with all of them, really, just those

13 that were helpful in my work.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] This might be a convenient time for our

15 break now that I've finished with this particular topic.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.

17 Mr. Milosavljevic, we have to break at this point for 20 minutes

18 or so. The usher will show you where to go while we're out of court, so

19 could you please accompany the usher from the court.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I've been advised in the intervening time, there is

22 a prospect that we will be sitting on Tuesday, and that will be a Tuesday

23 afternoon sitting if it takes place.

24 We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

Page 14267

1 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

2 [The witness takes the stand]


4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Before the break, Mr. Milosavljevic, we spoke about your

6 responsibility to report to Prime Minister Marjanovic at least once a

7 week. Did you do that?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. All right. Let us talk about how long your responsibilities went

10 on for. Until what time did you remain in your position of coordinator

11 for the government of the Republic of Serbia in Kosovo and Metohija?

12 A. I arrived in Kosovo and Metohija early in June 1998. I left the

13 area on the 28th of September, 1998, on account of my illness. I attended

14 the second extraordinary session of the national assembly of the Republic

15 of Serbia, which considered the current situation, as well as the security

16 and economic situation in Kosovo and Metohija. There was the report of

17 the government of the Republic of Serbia on the measures taken to

18 normalise the conditions in Kosovo and Metohija.

19 I sat in the session until 1300 hours. I suddenly became very

20 ill, and I had to be taken urgently to the hospital of Bezanijska Kosa,

21 where after three or four days early in October I underwent surgery. I

22 stayed in hospital for quite some time; therefore, as of the 28th of

23 September, I had no further activities.

24 Q. All right. It is based on this that we shall be limiting

25 ourselves in our following set of questions. June, on the one hand, and

Page 14268

1 the 28th of September, on the other, this is the period that we'll be

2 discussing, sir.

3 Can you now please look at a Defence document, 2D372. Please look

4 at it slowly, gradually, and then I'll be asking you some questions about

5 it.

6 A. All right.

7 Q. You've looked at the letter; right? I'll ask you something about

8 it. You have the document in front of you, don't you? I'll be pressing

9 on now.

10 We determined the period that you spent working hours as a

11 coordinator. Now we want to know about the scope of your work, what your

12 specific responsibilities were, what your work as coordinator of the

13 government of the Republic of Serbia for Kosovo and Metohija really

14 comprised. Slowly, please. These are complex words.

15 A. My work as coordinator in Kosovo and Metohija meant this: I was

16 coordinating the work of the ministries of the Republic of Serbia, the

17 head of district and the president -- the presidents of the

18 municipalities, and also goes without saying worked with the special

19 organs, such as the cadaster office, the revenue office, and so on and so

20 forth.

21 Q. Let me stop you there. How many districts were there? How many

22 heads of districts? How many municipalities and how many presidents of

23 the municipalities?

24 A. There's a total of five districts and five heads of districts in

25 Kosovo and Metohija. Those were appointed by the government of the

Page 14269

1 Republic of Serbia. There are a total of 29 municipalities with 29

2 presidents who were elected in keeping with legal regulations.

3 They were elected by municipal assemblies or whenever there were

4 municipal councils, and this applied to areas in which no elections were

5 held, or perhaps incomplete elections. In those cases, a Municipal

6 Council would step in, which was a council appointed by the government.

7 Q. Do you know the names of the heads of districts, and what were the

8 districts, specifically?

9 A. Yes. Of course, I know. I did work with those people, didn't I?

10 There was the Kosovo district in Pristina, Veljko Odalovic was head; the

11 Pec district, headed by Jovo Popovic; the Kosovska Mitrovica district,

12 headed by a number of different people. They took turns; Prizren

13 district, headed by Brankica Furijanovic; and then the Gnjilane district,

14 headed by Mr. Kovacevic.

15 As for the municipalities, I know the names of most of their

16 representatives, especially those with whom I was in close contact.

17 Q. Give us five or six.

18 A. Pec, Jovo Ivanovic; Pristina, Dusan Simic; and so on and so forth.

19 Q. During your activities on the ground, you talked about the

20 operation concerning the implementation of the regulations and policies of

21 the government of the Republic of Serbia. You were in touch with most of

22 the ministries; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Which ministries, specifically, and why?

25 A. Well, specifically, the Ministry of Finance funding the work of

Page 14270

1 the municipalities, a shortage of funds which was particularly prominent

2 in some of the municipalities because of their special needs, needs that

3 had not been envisioned in the municipal budget, that had not been

4 provided for. There were interventions in certain companies in such

5 municipalities where this was needed. The Ministry of Agriculture --

6 Q. One thing at a time, please. What about some of the ministers and

7 deputy ministers, did they not travel to Pristina every once in awhile and

8 then fly back? And were some of them there all the time, and who were

9 those ministers and deputy ministers?

10 A. Most often, the Minister of Agriculture was in Kosovo,

11 Mr. Babovic; then the federal Minister for Internal Trade, Mr. Miskovic;

12 then the Minister of Justice would come, Mr. Jankovic.

13 Q. Serbia?

14 A. Yes, of Serbia. It was only that one. Well, then the Minister of

15 Health, Mrs. Leposava Milicevic, came. As for those who were permanently

16 stationed and were in my headquarters, or rather, in my team, that was the

17 assistant Minister for Labour and Social Matters, Mr. Tomislav Kujundzic;

18 and the assistant Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Slobodan Ilic.

19 Q. What about Health?

20 A. For Health, yes, he was there, too. Well, he was also operational

21 in the field. All of us who were down there were most often in the

22 municipalities where there were problems that had been manifested.

23 Q. When you were sent down there, you established this headquarters,

24 this outpost. What do we call it?

25 A. I was staying at the provincial authority's premises with these

Page 14271

1 three men who had been assigned to me, and I operated from there.

2 Q. You said that you went to municipalities often and that you had

3 contacts with all the five heads of districts and 29 municipalities, and

4 you said a few moments ago that you particularly went to the

5 municipalities where there were problems.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. You established an outpost of the government of the Republic of

8 Serbia, if I understood you correctly. You were appointed coordinator.

9 A. It cannot be said that this was a special outpost.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters cannot

11 hear Mr. Fila.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were people who helped me in

13 carrying out my work. I sent them, of course, to different municipalities

14 so that certain problems would be eliminated, problems that had cropped up

15 there.

16 My method of work was to have meetings held from time to time with

17 all the presidents and heads, and especially sometimes in the districts.

18 Q. What were the special problems that you resolved on the ground;

19 that is to say, in these districts, municipalities, and so on? Try to

20 remember a few of them, a few types.

21 A. The problems were different. They varied from one municipality to

22 another. Somewhere it was the health services that functioned poorly,

23 then problems in education, problems in the work of the courts. There

24 were many cases and so on.

25 Q. Unresolved?

Page 14272

1 A. Yes, unresolved. What cases should be given priority, and so on;

2 then the functioning of local self-government, lack of water in individual

3 municipalities, settlements. There were other issues, too, related to the

4 functioning of the economy because we were making an effort to have

5 everything work in the conditions that were as they were.

6 I can say that most companies -- or rather, all companies, except

7 for a smaller number, did work while I was down there in Kosovo and

8 Metohija.

9 Q. All right. I think that we do get the picture in terms of what

10 your tasks were in Kosovo and Metohija as coordinator of the government of

11 the state of Serbia.

12 So would you agree with me that you were simply in charge of

13 making life happen as normally as possible?

14 A. I was in charge of making it possible for all institutions to

15 function and to have a normal life set up there.

16 Q. Now let us go back to why we are actually meeting here. Were

17 there problems in your work in relation to the situation that prevailed in

18 Kosovo in these complications? I shouldn't say the whole thing my,

19 because the situation was not quite normal, was it?

20 A. Indeed. There was a special state of fear among people. Many

21 roads had been closed down; for example, just to give you a few examples,

22 Orahovac-Pristina via Malisevo; then Decani-Djakovica; in the Kosovska

23 Mitrovica district, it was Srbica-Glogovac; and so on. People, the

24 presidents of the municipalities and other people out on the ground, were

25 stating that there were these difficulties, and people were afraid,

Page 14273

1 panic-stricken.

2 They were in a situation in which they were looking for a solution

3 in order to normalise the situation, to ensure unhindered movement, life,

4 and work, not to have any fear present. And there was fear, no doubt

5 about that. That was what the situation was. Even while I was there,

6 killings had started here and there; then the open-face mine that was the

7 artery for providing coal to the coal-fired power plants; then - what was

8 the name? - Bilacevac, yes, near Pristina. And it is only natural that

9 people made these demands. I conveyed this to the prime minister; that is

10 to say, an impression.

11 Q. Sorry, we'll get to that. Are you aware of the existence of the

12 KLA in the period while you were there; that is, June-September 1998?

13 What can you tell us about the activities of this organisation and the

14 consequences of their activity?

15 A. Well, you see, I did not deal with that particular subject

16 matter. But since I was there, I have eyes and ears, so I heard things

17 and I even saw some things. They, the KLA, carried out attacks here and

18 there in different places. They kidnapped and even killed people. No

19 doubt about that. I was informed about that, among other things, when I

20 talked to presidents of municipalities and people and citizens in villages

21 and towns where I went. So I can say --

22 Q. We'll get to that. Could you please now look at the letter that

23 is right in front of you, and tell us what this is, what you have before

24 you. Who kind this, and what is this all about?

25 A. This is a letter, a warning, whatever you wish to call it,

Page 14274

1 addressed by the president of the municipality of Orahovac, Mr. Andjelko

2 Kolasinac, in which he warns that every day the terrorists are moving the

3 lines closer and closer to Orahovac, Velika Hoca, Zociste, and Opterusa;

4 and, in fact, they encircled these settlements.

5 He is saying that the civilian population is running out of

6 patients because of day-to-day provocations by Albanian terrorists by

7 firearms. In this document, he appeals and hopes that the security forces

8 will resolve this problem, but, obviously, we can see in the text of the

9 letter that even he is losing hope. And he says here that there may even

10 be some self-organisation. Because if that would not happen, there would

11 be an exodus of the Serb people from that area or occupation by the KLA.

12 He --

13 Q. In that paragraph where he says, "in order to prevent the worst --

14 "In view of this, and in order to avoid the worst," does Mr. Kolasinac

15 think it is a bad solution if the population were to organise themselves?

16 What does he mean?

17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

19 MR. HANNIS: I think that calls for speculation on the part of

20 this witness as phrased.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that's right, Mr. Fila. I think that can

22 be asked possibly of the witness and his own concern, but it's really not

23 for him to interpret these words. This letter wasn't addressed to him,

24 for example. It was addressed to other people.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] If you look at this down here, it says:

Page 14275

1 "To the government of the Republic of Serbia." He's the Republic of

2 Serbia. He's the government. It was submitted to him.

3 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'd like to hear that from the witness rather

4 than Mr. Fila.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It doesn't matter.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, did you receive this letter in

7 your capacity as coordinator?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received this letter, and I

9 personally talked to Mr. Kolasinac, the president of the municipality of

10 Orahovac, because right after that he came to see me in Pristina, and he

11 presented the whole problem to me.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, in that case it is -- in that

15 case, it is open to you to ask, to expand upon the comment in the letter,

16 if you can, by asking appropriate questions.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, please carefully read the paragraph - one, two,

19 three, four - five. It says: "In view of this, and in order to avoid the

20 worst, people organising on their own initiative ..." What does that

21 mean?

22 A. That means that the Serb people would oppose such things

23 happening. Of course, that did not happen, because the position of the

24 state was that things could not be done that way but, rather, only through

25 appropriate organs that were established for that in accordance with the

Page 14276

1 law and constitution.

2 Q. Did Kolasinac personally present this position to you, that he

3 believed that this was the worst solution?

4 A. Yes, that's what he said. That is the settlement that is there.

5 And, indeed, from all sides, nearby, there were terrorist centres

6 according to what people said; and then Suva Reka, Malisevo, Ostrozub,

7 Dragobilje were nearby and so on.

8 Q. In that same sentence, Mr. Kolasinac says the following: "We

9 appeal for organised protection by our state, the Republic of Serbia."

10 What does that mean?

11 A. He's asking to be protected, Orahovac and the other settlements,

12 in regular ways.

13 Q. And, finally, in the last paragraph, he says: "We hope that we

14 will speedily receive assistance in the form of certain protection forces

15 before it is too late."

16 A. That is correct. However --

17 Q. In that letter, he expresses his fear of an exodus by the

18 population.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, a few moments ago we were saying that it was your obligation

21 to inform Prime Minister Marjanovic about what you found out about as you

22 were travelling and carrying out your coordinating duties. On the basis

23 of this letter and other letters, if there were other letters as well, did

24 you inform Mr. Marjanovic about that, and perhaps someone else as well?

25 A. About this letter, I informed Mr. Marjanovic; however, he told me

Page 14277

1 that he had received the letter and that all measures would be taken, and

2 that I should convey that to Kolasinac.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. I only informed Marjanovic.

5 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, it is generally known - and I hope there will be no

6 objections that I'm leading you - that at that time there was a large

7 group of foreign diplomats present in Kosovo and Metohija, representatives

8 of states and governments, international organisations, humanitarian

9 organisations, and so on and so forth; is that correct?

10 A. It is absolutely correct.

11 Q. What I'm interested in now is the following: Did you meet with

12 any of them?

13 A. Mr. Marjanovic, the prime minister, instructed me subsequently, in

14 terms of Kosovo and Metohija -- or rather, Pristina, to talk to diplomats

15 there, to representatives of humanitarian and non-governmental

16 organisations, and that started from as early as mid-June.

17 I can say --

18 Q. Can you tell us, before we move on to specific persons, what kind

19 of organisations were there, from what countries, that you came across?

20 We'll deal with them individually later.

21 A. In Kosovo and Metohija, there were numerous humanitarian

22 organisations. I can only enumerate the most influential ones. These

23 were the International Committee of the Red Cross, the UNHCR, various

24 other humanitarian organisations which were active there providing aid to

25 the population all over Kosovo and Metohija.

Page 14278

1 Q. Apart from these humanitarian and other organisations, apart from

2 the ones you enumerated, did you have meetings with diplomats and

3 ambassadors of foreign countries who were not involved in humanitarian

4 issues?

5 A. Yes. I had numerous meetings. Let me mention but a few. I

6 talked to Mr. Satak, the deputy Secretary of State of the USA. There was

7 a ten-member team; on two occasions with the deputy Foreign Minister of

8 Russia, Mr. Afasanijevski.

9 Q. Afasanijevski, yes.

10 A. Then I spoke to representatives of the OSCE; to representatives of

11 the European Union; to the ambassadors of England, Germany, France, Italy;

12 numerous representatives stationed there; and then --

13 Q. Does the name of Mr. Dinsberg, Mr. Petritsch, Mr. Pedersen mean

14 anything to you? Did you have meetings with them?

15 A. Yes. I met Mr. Petritsch as many as three times.

16 Q. Go on.

17 A. There were high-ranking representatives of humanitarian

18 organisations, human rights representatives: Margaret O'Keefe, Sadako

19 Ogata, Beatrice Weber, and so on.

20 Q. Ms. Sadako Ogata was from the UN Committee for Human Rights?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. There were three or four delegations a day. What was

23 Mrs. Elizabeth Rehn?

24 A. She was representing the UN on human rights issues.

25 Q. We will have some questions about what they were interested in.

Page 14279

1 First of all, what were they interested in, in connection with the

2 measures concerning citizens when they spoke to you?

3 A. They were all interested in how the Moscow declaration was being

4 implemented. The two presidents, Mr. Yeltsin and Mr. Milosevic, had

5 signed it, and they weren't just interested in as it relates to my sphere

6 of activity; that is, whether displaced persons were returning to their

7 hearths and homes, whether --

8 Q. You'll have to slow down.

9 A. -- whether foodstuffs and other necessities were being provided,

10 medicines and other necessities, what activities were being carried out to

11 repair houses which had been damaged or destroyed, what measures had been

12 adopted or were being planned by the government of the Republic of Serbia

13 with a view to resolving these issues; and other issues as well, for

14 example, something that was not within my competence but it was mentioned

15 by other diplomats.

16 Q. Did they ask for freedom of movement of diplomatic representatives

17 and representatives of humanitarian organisations?

18 A. Yes. They never failed to mention that.

19 Q. And that was within the scope of the Moscow declaration?

20 A. Yes, it was. It may be interesting to say what I said to them.

21 Q. Well, we'll come to that. But to all those questions that were

22 being put, do you know that apart from the Moscow declarations there were

23 certain demands being made by the OSCE, the European Union, the Contact

24 Group, and others? Did they mention those in their talks with you?

25 A. Yes. These demands were of a similar nature, that necessary aid

Page 14280

1 should be provided to people, that humanitarian organisations should be

2 allowed free movement, as should diplomatic representatives.

3 Q. Very well. We have heard what they asked. Now will you tell us

4 what you told them?

5 A. I informed them in detail of the measures being taken by the

6 government of the Republic of Serbia in order to provide for the normal

7 life and work of the population in Kosovo and Metohija.

8 Q. Did you tell them anything about humanitarian aid and who it was

9 being provided to?

10 A. Yes. It was being sent especially to the areas that were at risk

11 and to Kosovo and Metohija. In high-risk areas, we delivered food,

12 supplies for personal hygiene, materials for the repair of damaged houses.

13 I told them that we were making it possible for refugees to return to

14 their homes. We were providing them with free transportation.

15 And the government of the Republic of Serbia more than once

16 publicly expressed its standpoint that people should go back to their

17 hearths and homes, and this was being done, in fact.

18 Q. There was any discrimination when humanitarian aid was being

19 distributed? Was it, for example, given to members of the SPS or to Serbs

20 only?

21 A. No. There was no discrimination at all. I visited those areas,

22 and I did not see any discrimination. Had I seen it, I would have

23 protested vehemently. Those were my instructions, and I would also have

24 done it because I'm human, but those were my instructions.

25 Q. Were you a member of the SPS?

Page 14281

1 A. No. I was not a member of any party.

2 Q. You became a member of the government as a non-party person?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you tell them that the government of Serbia was providing free

5 passage?

6 A. Yes, I did, especially in the case of humanitarian organisations.

7 They were the ones who spoke to me more. The diplomats only did so in

8 formal talks. But we invested enormous efforts to make sure that the

9 humanitarian aid that arrived from any organisation should reach its

10 destined goal. Sometimes there were hitches, sometimes it would be held

11 up for a few hours, but we always managed to remove any obstacles through

12 the competent authorities.

13 Q. Did you acquaint the foreign diplomats and representatives of the

14 humanitarian organisations with the problems you spoke about earlier, in

15 connection with the letter by Mr. Kolasinac, about persons who were

16 kidnapped or imprisoned?

17 A. That was not my task. As regards the security situation, that was

18 not my task; but, in my conversations, of course, I did mention terrorist

19 activities in general. But as regards the persons who had been kidnapped

20 or abducted, I regularly mentioned that even if they didn't ask me about

21 it, because that was a very problem.

22 I did not think when I went to visit Kosovo and Metohija that that

23 would be a major preoccupation of mine; however, it became that as a

24 result of the onslaught, so to speak, of the parents and relatives of

25 persons who had been kidnapped or abducted. There were 2 or 300 such

Page 14282

1 cases while I was there; and in various places, I had over ten meetings.

2 These were very unpleasant conversations, because those relatives

3 went so far as to issue threats. They said, "If they can kidnap my

4 father, my brother, my son, why don't you let us do the same?" And I told

5 them that the official organs were doing their job, that I was telling all

6 this to the foreign diplomats and humanitarian representatives who were

7 there, and that they were all promising that the problem would be solved.

8 However, it always came to nothing, their promises.

9 Q. Thank you. So the result of all your talks was meager. Nothing

10 happened.

11 A. Well, there were no results because none of these people ever came

12 back, and only now has it come to light or is it coming to light that they

13 were killed.

14 Q. We'll now talk about humanitarian aid, because that's an issue

15 here. You said more than once that you were involved in creating the

16 conditions for humanitarian aid to reach its goal. How was this done?

17 What did this look like?

18 A. Well, the humanitarian organisations brought aid in large

19 quantities. I think a lot of effort was invested by them, but we also, as

20 the government of the Republic of Serbia, and others, for example,

21 companies and others, brought in aid. It was our wish that all areas

22 where aid was needed be covered, and the humanitarian organisations also

23 were concerned about that, especially the ICRC and the UNHCR. We

24 harmonised our work with them.

25 When distributing aid, if there were temporarily displaced

Page 14283

1 persons, especially in inaccessible places, the problems were more

2 serious. There were places where we couldn't go, and then the

3 humanitarian organisations took aid to those places. They took the most

4 necessary things there.

5 Q. I didn't understand. When you were unable to act, they did. What

6 does that mean? Can you explain that?

7 A. Well, there were certain areas where objectively, because of the

8 terrorists, we could not go; for example, Djeravica towards the border

9 with Albania. It's up in the mountains above Junik. At the end of June,

10 there was a group there. It was established that there were 2 or 3.000

11 people there, but there were about 300 in fact. And for three days, we

12 negotiated with the UNHCR and Mr. Vargas who persistently wanted aid to be

13 taken there.

14 Well, we wanted that also. It was our proposal, for reasons of

15 security, that it should go via Decani, but he insisted it should go via

16 Junik for reasons of his own. And in the end, simply to make sure that

17 those people received aid, we said, "All right, go via Junik." But we

18 could not guarantee freedom of movement there because at that time that

19 area was, so to say, occupied by the terrorists. It was under their

20 control, to put it quite simply.

21 There were other areas as well. At a later stage, we set up

22 humanitarian centres in the areas most at risk, in the municipalities.

23 And we even agreed with some of the humanitarian organisations that they

24 should inject part of their goods into these humanitarian centres, and

25 this was very good for the restoration of confidence and for bringing

Page 14284

1 people closer together, because in those centres it everybody received

2 aid, Serbs, Albanians, Turks, Roma.

3 And the humanitarian centre in Orahovac was especially successful.

4 It was visited more than once by foreign diplomatic representatives and

5 delegations. I visited it two or three times, and I can say that it

6 worked really well. They provided glass for windows that had been

7 shattered in the terrorist and anti-terrorist activities, building

8 materials for the repair of houses, and so on.

9 Q. Did you inform those organisations of the fact that we were having

10 problems with kidnapped persons? And were only Serbs kidnapped or were

11 there others as well?

12 A. Of course, I informed everybody. That was what I was supposed to

13 do, and I believed it necessary to do just that, to talk to everyone and

14 tell them about these problems and to try to do something about the

15 problems, in the hope of bringing someone back at least, so that hope

16 might be given to others, too. Unfortunately, everybody agreed that the

17 problem was there, that it was quite a pronounced problem and a painful

18 one in purely human terms.

19 We even went as far as to offer an exchange to be organised

20 through the mediation of diplomats who would have been in a position to

21 deal with the other side; however, we weren't successful in this.

22 Q. Everything that you've been telling us about, all these things,

23 who was it that you informed about these things?

24 A. My line of reporting went straight to the prime minister of the

25 Republic of Serbia and him alone. As for humanitarian issues, I would

Page 14285

1 sometimes inform our commission, the republican Commission for Refugees,

2 which existed at the time and operated.

3 In Kosovo and Metohija, there were refugees from the Krajina

4 region and Bosnia, about 13.000 of those, if I remember correctly, and

5 some of those were facing great hardship, too.

6 Q. In view of the situation as you have described it for us, was a

7 body set up to assist those citizens of Kosovo who were at risk, whose

8 situation was precarious at the time, in terms of providing them with

9 supplies?

10 A. In view of the fact how complex the distribution of supplies was

11 to people in Kosovo and Metohija, at the level of the Republic of Serbia,

12 headquarters were set up for distributing supplies to the people in Kosovo

13 and Metohija.

14 In parallel, a provincial centre was set up as well as supply

15 centres throughout the districts and municipalities. As for the

16 republican headquarters, there was the Minister for Domestic Trade of

17 Yugoslavia, Mr. Miskovic; the Minister of Agriculture of the Republic of

18 Serbia, Mr. Babovic; some deputy ministers; and from Kosovo, we had Ratko

19 Jocic, who was president of the supply centre in Kosovo and Metohija. The

20 presidents throughout the districts were the head of districts; and in

21 municipalities, the presidents of the respective municipalities.

22 The headquarters had the task of making sure that there would be

23 sufficient supplies to distribute throughout Kosovo and Metohija. I, too,

24 was involved in the work of the headquarters, the central office, so to

25 speak, and we had three different aspects.

Page 14286

1 Q. What about the headquarters? Were there people there involved

2 with health, with construction, that sort of thing?

3 A. Yes, of course. Deputies or assistants.

4 Q. Deputy or assistant ministers, you mean?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. You were involved in the work of the headquarters; right?

7 A. Yes, the central office. But whenever I could, I also went to

8 meetings of the provincial headquarters.

9 Q. Where were the meetings held?

10 A. In Pristina, those of the central office. Sometimes two or three

11 times there were meetings in Belgrade, and sometimes in the various

12 districts depending on the problems that arose.

13 Q. What was the principal objective of the headquarters at the

14 central office?

15 A. To make sure there were sufficient supplies for a normal life and

16 to keep everything operational.

17 Q. Which supplies, specifically?

18 A. Foodstuffs above all; specifically, flour, oil, sugar, meat. The

19 basic necessities; potatoes, beans, that sort of thing. The basic

20 necessities to feed people. Also --

21 Q. Thank you. And these were distributed, too, to everyone alike?

22 A. Yes. It was for the entire population. Humanitarian aid was

23 distributed free of charge. These were human rights supplies as they

24 called them, and special funds were set apart for that, and special

25 supplies within the headquarters.

Page 14287

1 Q. What types of supplies were there?

2 A. We had three different types: Humanitarian supplies, free of

3 charge, and this sort was dispatched to areas that were at risk and

4 distributed to refugees, people who were without their homes

5 provisionally, and also to those who were socially disenfranchised.

6 There were the so-called intervention shipments, and these dealt

7 with supplies that did not abound at the time. That's what everybody

8 needed: Oil, beans, flour, meat, that sort of thing.

9 Q. So who did that go to?

10 A. These shipments used the normal routes used by goods for the

11 purposes of trade, but these commodities were sometimes taken from the

12 state reserves. So there had to be an intervention, in a manner of

13 speaking, by the state to supplement these supplies.

14 Q. And the third type?

15 A. And the third type was commercial supplies, commercial supplies

16 following the mechanisms of the market. However, the important thing here

17 was the whole thing was organised. The state took matters into its own

18 hands in order to avoid shady situations which sometimes occur in this

19 sort context.

20 There were companies that were in charge of this, and these

21 companies were closely watched. There were inspection teams monitoring

22 the whole process. There was an agriculture inspection team, there was a

23 health inspection team, and a trade inspection team; the health

24 inspection, because they were dealing with medications, too.

25 Q. If I understand you correctly, there were three aspects to this:

Page 14288

1 The first being humanitarian aid shipments, free for all, right?

2 A. Yes, free for all, everyone alike. All those who were in need:

3 Displaced persons; people in a socially inferior position, and those who

4 had simply run out of food. Food has sometimes gone stale -- gone stale

5 and rotten in people's homes which they had to leave behind because of the

6 operations of the terrorists. That's how it worked.

7 Humanitarian aid shipments were dispatched through these

8 humanitarian aid centres later on, but our Yugoslav Red Cross also was

9 concerned with this, where the state was concerned; then also

10 international humanitarian organisations who had a lot of influence on

11 bringing the supply situation in Kosovo and Metohija back to normal.

12 Q. So you can confirm that it was distributed to everyone with no

13 discrimination whatsoever?

14 A. Yes. No question about that. All those who were in need.

15 Q. The other two aspects of supplies, the commercial type, for

16 example, how was that secured? How did you make sure that people got it

17 at the right price, at a fair price?

18 A. The whole procedure was closely watched by inspection teams. Very

19 often, the supplies came from the state's commodity reserves, and there

20 were organisations that were authorised to deal with the flow of goods.

21 Payments were made based on these commodity reserves and also to other

22 companies, and this worked smoothly.

23 The danger was looming that the market might be unsettled. Some

24 people, for example, could have taken more of the goods in order to resell

25 them the next day. We stood in the way of this sort of practice, and this

Page 14289

1 greatly enhanced the entire process.

2 Q. Based on your own assessment on the functioning of these various

3 headquarters from the central office to the ground level, the municipal

4 ones, what would that assessment be?

5 A. Everything worked smoothly given the circumstances that prevailed.

6 I'm quite happy with their work. They met their objectives. They met all

7 the goals that they had been established for.

8 Q. Sir, let us dwell on this for a minute. Let us try to zoom in on

9 a detail that we have not discussed so far. We talked about the

10 objections being raised by various diplomats and about how you worked in

11 order to make sure that the state administration worked properly and that

12 humanitarian aid reached its destination.

13 You would agree with me, though, wouldn't you that there was

14 shooting in Kosovo throughout; right? There were all sorts of problems.

15 That's why I'm asking you this.

16 What about these foreign diplomats? When they came to speak to

17 you, and you told us about that, did they ever underline any concerns they

18 might have had about possible crimes in Kosovo? Could you tell us

19 anything about that, sir, regarding any of the sides, not just this side.

20 Not just the KLA.

21 A. It is true that these problems, the problems of looting, on all

22 sides, were mentioned. And this was happening throughout Kosovo and

23 Metohija, and this is one of the concerns that were being underlined.

24 Q. To all practical intents, what did they tell you?

25 A. That there was a lot of looting all over the place --

Page 14290

1 Q. Now, now --

2 A. -- that crime was rife throughout the area: Looting, threats

3 being made, incidents, punch-ups, that sort of thing.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. To be clear about this, you're being asked

5 about things that foreign diplomats told you. You would surely be aware

6 of these things without a diplomat having to tell you about them, local

7 crime and looting. I don't think that's what Mr. Fila's asking about.

8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] No, no, no. We have been speaking

9 about the fact that diplomats were asking questions about humanitarian aid

10 and everything else, safe passage, how the agreement was being

11 implemented. So did they tell him anything about what they themselves had

12 learned on the ground in terms of various crimes being committed, such as

13 murder, robbery, looting. Did they ask him to provide information on that

14 sort of thing. That's what I'm asking.

15 Q. Did they at any point tell you about this, and did they seek

16 information from you?

17 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a particularly leading question you've

18 asked, and it must inevitably affect the value of the answer, but let's

19 hear what the witness can tell us about it.

20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm trying to hurry things along.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreter did not

22 understand Mr. Fila.

23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I said my apologies for this leading

24 question. However, the way the trial has been going so far, it was clear

25 that this would happen. All I'm trying to do is to economise in terms of

Page 14291

1 time.

2 Let's try again.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I can't let that go without commenting. There is

4 no reason why the way in which the trial has been going should lead to

5 unnecessary leading questions.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Fair enough. My apologies then.

7 Q. During those talks, in addition to safe passage, unrestricted

8 access, and humanitarian aid, were there any other subjects being raised

9 by these diplomats in terms of what was happening in Kosovo throughout

10 your time there, the period between June and September?

11 A. They wanted to know about a whole lot of different things. I was

12 in charge of certain things and I knew about certain things, and those

13 were the subjects that I discussed with them, and I provided specific

14 answers.

15 There were questions raised sometimes in relation to which I was

16 unable to provide complete answers. Specifically, when talking about

17 displaced persons, humanitarian aid, unrestricted movement, distribution

18 of humanitarian aid, kidnappings, abductions, there were permanent answers

19 being provided and requests by me for them to help us deal with that.

20 Q. What about beyond all of this? Did they notice anything else?

21 Did they enjoy unrestricted movement throughout Kosovo and Metohija,

22 humanitarian organisations and diplomats alike?

23 A. Yes. Unrestricted movement was guaranteed and security to

24 diplomats and humanitarian organisations. On the whole I think I can say

25 that I think this worked well. There were sporadic problems, needless to

Page 14292

1 say, but my general assessment would be that things worked smoothly in

2 that respect.

3 Q. All right. Did they warn you at any point? Did they inform you?

4 Did they tell you that anything was happening that wasn't good, that

5 anything was happening that would run counter to the normal functioning of

6 a country?

7 A. My talks with them went in all sorts of directions. They asked

8 their own questions. What they wanted to know, I answered. We discussed

9 all sorts of issues. Of course, that's the sort of talks that we had.

10 And given the sort of problems that were there, there were different kinds

11 of questions being raised. Some asked questions about this and some about

12 that. I talked about matters of general interest, and this is the sort of

13 thing that I normally told them about.

14 Q. Did they ever mention the fact that, as they were moving about,

15 they actually noticed specific crimes being committed, such as, for

16 example, looting, murder, perhaps? Did they tell you anything about that?

17 Did they seek information from you about any of these things?

18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object. He's hinted about murders

19 three times now, and he hasn't got the answer yet. I think anything he

20 gets now is not going to helpful.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I think, in view of the way he has approached

22 it so far, he's entitled to be more specific, Mr. Hannis. So let's hear

23 the answer is to that question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were such questions; namely,

25 that looting should be prevented, improper conduct. That was absolutely

Page 14293

1 the case.

2 Q. Was that the question?

3 A. It was the answer, too.

4 Q. Just slow down. Sir, could you just wait a second. Wait for the

5 letters to stop appearing on the screen, and then start answering.

6 You told us that there were such questions. Right. Now, my

7 question is as follows - wait for it to come out and then this answer -

8 what did you do, if anything, in order to check such claims? Was that

9 really going on, these things that they were telling you about?

10 A. I expressed my interest. I expressed my interest through my own

11 lines of communication; that is to say, through presidents of

12 municipalities and others. And I can say that there were various gangs

13 that were involved in stealing, looting, also some more serious things in

14 terms of jeopardising the property, safety of citizens. Usually, it was

15 village gangs that were at each other's throats, and that was dealt with

16 judiciously. I was telling people, I was saying, "People, see to this,

17 see that it is eliminated, that this goes away."

18 Q. Did you ask the five district heads?

19 A. Of course, I did. I asked them, too. I can also say that I

20 talked to --

21 Q. Slowly, slowly answer my questions. You -- your answer was that

22 you asked them, too, then?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, what was their reply to you when you asked them? Did this

25 kind of thing happen in their districts, the things that we've been

Page 14294

1 talking about -- or rather, that foreign representatives talked about?

2 A. Their reply was that there were such individual cases but that

3 these were people from the sphere of crime who tried to take advantage of

4 this difficult situation for their own objectives; that is to say, for

5 attaining their own dishonourable objectives, but that they were held

6 responsible and that they were handed over to relevant prosecution

7 authorities; most of them, that is, as many as possible.

8 Q. The building where you stayed in Pristina, was the army there or

9 the police or who was in that building? The building where those

10 headquarters of yours were.

11 A. I lived in the corps building.

12 Q. What corps?

13 A. Well, the corps of the army of Yugoslavia; the 3rd Corps, the

14 Pristina Corps.

15 Q. Just take it slowly. While you stayed there, did you come across

16 military men, and who was it at that, if you saw them at all.

17 A. Of course. Since I lived, there I encountered officers,

18 commissioned and non-commissioned; and in the immediate vicinity, there

19 was internal affairs, too, so I saw them.

20 Q. Slowly. I'm asking you about officers.

21 A. Yes, I saw that.

22 Q. Did you know who the commander of the 3rd Army was at the time?

23 A. When I was there, General Samardzic was commander of the 3rd Army.

24 Q. Did you see him, too?

25 A. I encountered him two or three times.

Page 14295

1 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, as for General Samardzic, did you ask him about

2 this information that you were receiving from diplomats, what we've been

3 discussing so far? Now, slowly. So I mean about what was going on in the

4 field, things that run counter to criminal codes. And if you asked him

5 about these things, can you tell us what it was that he answered?

6 A. He expressed his interest by the way in the work that I was

7 dealing with, and then we discussed broader subjects as well, including

8 these issues even. We had similar assessments, almost identical

9 assessments; namely, that such things were happening and that this should

10 be prevented energetically, which was indeed being done within the scope

11 of the possibilities that existed at the time.

12 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, the building that you lived in, was that

13 perhaps the military hotel?

14 A. Well, yes, I lived at the corps. Well, yes, other officers lived

15 there, too.

16 Q. So is this building the corps building or the military hotel

17 building?

18 A. Well, there's a military hotel, and then the corps was nearby,

19 staying right there, nearby.

20 Q. At this hotel?

21 A. It's not a hotel. It's the corps building, a big building. I

22 lived there.

23 Q. In that building?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And others?

Page 14296

1 A. Other officers lived there, too. And the commander of the corps

2 lived there in that building as well.

3 Q. That was?

4 A. General Pavkovic.

5 Q. And near you, near your building, near this building where you

6 lived, regardless of whether it's a hotel or the corps or whatever, was

7 there a police headquarters there? Let me put it that way.

8 A. In the immediate vicinity, there was the MUP building. I don't

9 know exactly how many metres away, but it wasn't far away.

10 Q. All right. Did you encounter members of the MUP of Serbia?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Now, did you ask them, too -- or rather, did you talk to them,

13 too, in order to obtain information or to check what the foreign diplomats

14 were telling you about?

15 A. I talked to them as well. I also had policemen from the area

16 where I was born. So I asked them about the situation there, and they

17 were telling me that such things were happening, but they didn't have any

18 special information because everybody there was doing their own work. And

19 it is only natural that these crimes had been registered, and they were

20 reported in order for proceedings to take place.

21 Q. Thank you. As for these objection raised by diplomats and

22 foreigners, and as for the results of your own investigations, if I can

23 call it that way, your talks with the heads of districts and the

24 presidents of municipalities, did you inform Prime Minister Marjanovic

25 about that, and someone else perhaps?

Page 14297

1 A. As for this, as well as other matters, I informed the prime

2 minister, Mirko Marjanovic, only, because that is what has been agreed

3 upon; although, I should say quite only, that this was not my own line of

4 work, and this was not the subject matter that I dealt with. But I

5 thought it was serious problem, and I thought I should inform the prime

6 minister in order for appropriate measures to be tank. I did not talk to

7 others, and it was not my own like of work, but I assume -- well,

8 everybody has their own work and is in charge of the work he does.

9 Q. What did Mr. Marjanovic say to you, if anything, when you reported

10 about these things and the results that you had reached, if you remember.

11 A. Prime Minister Marjanovic said to me that I should particularly

12 pay attention to the work that I was in charge of; and in addition to

13 that, if I have any other information, it would be well come because it

14 can assist the work of other organs.

15 Q. All right. Now, let us go back to your own work now. Could you

16 describe to us what this humanitarian situation in Kosovo and Metohija was

17 like? But before you start answering, could you please look at 2D3382.

18 Study it slowly, and then we'll discuss it. 2D382 is the number,

19 actually. It's the last document.

20 A. May I?

21 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you. Can you -- what is this? What

22 document is this?

23 A. This is --

24 Q. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. All right. In the upper

25 right-hand corner.

Page 14298

1 A. This is a press statement of the Secretary for Information of the

2 autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, dated the 27th of August,

3 1999. After talks were conducted by Mr. Veljko Odalovic, the chief of the

4 Kosovo district, and myself, with the assistant of the Secretary of State

5 to the United States of America, Mrs. Taft, and the chief of the American

6 mission in Belgrade --

7 Q. Richard Miles?

8 A. -- Mr. Richard Miles, who were visiting Kosovo and Metohija with

9 their associates, on that day.

10 Q. And what does paragraph 2 indicate?

11 A. Paragraph 2 indicates --

12 Q. Slowly, slowly.

13 A. Paragraph 2 indicates that: "As per the resolution of

14 humanitarian questions, what is expected is the full engagement of

15 international humanitarian organisations ..." --

16 Q. Slowly.

17 A. -- "... and that with the help of the Yugoslav Red Cross and state

18 organs, they need to support all the efforts made by the Republic of

19 Serbia in this area."

20 Q. What was the assessment of the work done to date?

21 A. It was emphasised that cooperation to date had been good.

22 Q. I see --

23 MR. HANNIS: I see in the transcript, the answer refers it as

24 being a document the 27th of August, 1999. I know the English translation

25 says 1999, but my B/C/S version says 1998, and I think we need to clear up

Page 14299

1 which year we're talking about.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I was assuming the B/C/S was the accurate document.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Eight. 1998.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, it is 1998. It's fairly obvious it couldn't

5 be 1999.

6 MR. HANNIS: I wouldn't have spoken except the answer got

7 translated as 1999.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Fila.

9 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

10 Q. How was the cooperation to date assessed? Wait. Wait.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: That question has already been answered, and you --

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Oh, all right, is sorry.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- were proceeding to another question.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now, what is it that you emphasised there?

16 A. On that occasion, I pointed out that, in accordance with the

17 Moscow declaration by Presidents Milosevic and Yeltsin, free movement was

18 made possible for all diplomatic and humanitarian missions in all

19 directions in Kosovo and Metohija, and that all problems that might arise

20 were being eliminated through intervention.

21 Q. And what did you express then?

22 A. I also informed the American diplomats about the establishment of

23 11 humanitarian posts in the territory of the province up until then.

24 Q. Did you stress the problem of the abducted?

25 A. You're asking me -- yes. I stressed the problem of citizens who

Page 14300

1 had been abducted by terrorists, and I expressed great dissatisfaction

2 with the resolving of those problems, and I asked for a new assistance and

3 cooperation of all, including international humanitarian organisations.

4 Q. What about Mr. Odalovic, Chief Odalovic?

5 A. He talked about activities and measures that the Republic of

6 Serbia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were taking so that the

7 civilian population, which had, due to terrorist activity as well as

8 various separatist groups and gangs, been forced to leave their homes.

9 Q. And what was asked for? What was explained? What were the state

10 organs doing?

11 A. State organs were doing -- were taking all measures in order to

12 take care of the population, to provide construction material, food

13 supplies, and so on.

14 Q. All right. Last question from this set of questions is whether

15 these diplomats had any objections in respect of any of the things you

16 asserted, or did they accept it that way at that meeting?

17 A. As far as I can remember, there weren't any objections.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I think that this would be an

20 appropriate moment in view of the time.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, we have to break again at this

22 stage. This time for half an hour. Would you please go with the usher.

23 [The witness stands down].

24 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 10 to 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

Page 14301

1 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.


3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we were told that the

4 system is down. That's why I was not dressed on time, and my colleagues

5 are telling me I cannot work, but I don't understand anything about these

6 matters.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you and I together will be good enough to

8 take them on, Mr. Fila. The question is whether we need it at any stage,

9 and that will depend on how the exhibits are to be dealt with.

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I don't.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you've dealt with your exhibits now.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Then please proceed.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Excellent. Thank you.

15 Q. You have looked at that exhibit. We won't need it any more. Now

16 I will ask you, based on what you have read and everything you have said

17 so far, to give us an overview of the humanitarian situation in Kosovo and

18 Metohija throughout the period of your stay there, June 1998 to September

19 1998, an overview by municipality.

20 A. The humanitarian situation in Kosovo and Metohija existed from the

21 first to the last day. These problems were solved successfully in spite

22 of certain difficulties; however, a general assessment might be that the

23 problems were solved successfully. They were so successful owing to the

24 concern of the government of Serbia, the municipal organs, and other

25 organs as well as companies, which provided necessities, staple foods,

Page 14302

1 building materials.

2 And let me point out that a vast amount of help arrived from

3 international humanitarian organisations, which, as far as I could tell -

4 and I did participate in those talks and in all the work that went on -

5 made a huge contribution to solving these problems.

6 We managed to improve the situation in terms of organisation

7 also. Because at a certain stage, we established humanitarian centres in

8 the municipalities and villages which were most at risk. Up to September,

9 14, these had been established, and I visited these humanitarian centres;

10 that is, the ones in Orahovac, Decani, Klina, Djakovica, and also in some

11 villages. There was one in Junik, one in Istinic, and so on, and I've

12 already mentioned Orahovac.

13 In my view, these were very good places, because goods,

14 foodstuffs, building materials, glass for windows was received there by

15 all citizens. I visited the one in Orahovac, and there was one person

16 from the Red Cross, one from the centre for social work. And we did our

17 best to have people from the local self-administration there, both Serbs

18 and Albanians wherever possible; for example, in Orahovac, it worked

19 really well. I was there one day when humanitarian aid was being

20 distributed to all citizens, including Roma, Albanians, Serbs, and others.

21 They took glass panes for glazing their houses. They took foodstuffs,

22 everything they needed.

23 Q. Was the humanitarian situation the same in municipalities where

24 there was no KLA activity as in those where there was such activity?

25 A. The humanitarian situation in the municipalities where there were

Page 14303

1 no terrorist activities practically did not exist. Aid was distributed to

2 those citizens who had arrived there, moved there on a temporary basis

3 because they were displaced; otherwise, part of Kosovo functioned

4 normally. In places where, there were many displaced persons

5 accommodated, and they were mostly concentrated in towns. There was some

6 in Montenegro, and a small number in Albania. That's the displaced

7 persons who had been driven away from their hearth and home because of

8 terrorist activity. And I can even say that in areas under KLA control,

9 even there humanitarian aid was delivered.

10 For the most part, most of these international humanitarian

11 organisations did that; and here and there, it was our Red Cross working

12 on that task. There were enough goods. The commodity reserves always

13 intervened when it was impossible to get goods from other sources. And

14 it's also interesting to mention, with respect to these humanitarian

15 centres, that international humanitarian organisations participated in

16 those with some of their goods.

17 And this was very good for confidence building, helping people

18 understand that things were changing for the better. And I have to say

19 that, in September, the situation was consolidated to a great extent.

20 Q. Thank you. That would be a summary of your stay there as regards

21 humanitarian issues while you were in Kosovo; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, of course. One can't go into every detail. There would be a

23 lot of that.

24 Q. Well, maybe you could write your memoirs. Every general before

25 this Court has written at least one book?

Page 14304

1 MR. HANNIS: I object, Your Honour, that's not true. General

2 Naumann has not written a book.

3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's right.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Not on this subject.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Well, now let's move on, and we will talk about Mr. Sainovic.

7 That will be our last topic. Do you know Mr. Sainovic? Since when have

8 you known him, and what do you know about him?

9 A. I have known Mr. Sainovic since the 1980s. He worked in the

10 mining and foundry complex in Bor, and he was one of the leaders there,

11 one of the head people. He was also the president of Bor municipality,

12 and I was president of a neighbouring municipality, Zagubica. We

13 cooperated very often because many people from my municipality, which was

14 very poor, worked in the Bor basin.

15 Also, I knew Mr. Sainovic and continued cooperating with him after

16 he went to Belgrade, where he became Minister of Mining and Energy. And

17 in the 1990s, he was also the prime minister of the Republic of Serbia.

18 Later on, he was deputy prime minister of the federal government, and I

19 knew him then also because we worked together on certain tasks of common

20 interest for our native area.

21 Q. Mr. Sainovic -- in Kosovo and Metohija in the course of the 1980s,

22 when you were there, did you see Mr. Sainovic there?

23 A. Yes. I would see Mr. Sainovic in Kosovo in the period from July,

24 early July, approximately, to the end of September when I left Kosovo and

25 Metohija.

Page 14305

1 Q. Did you meet him there? Did you know what he was doing there?

2 How did you find that out?

3 A. I met him in Pristina in early July 1998, and I was told that he

4 was coming to Kosovo and Metohija by the prime minister. Several days

5 before his arrival, the prime minister told me that Mr. Sainovic was

6 coming to Kosovo, and that I should apply to him whenever I was dealing

7 with the foreign affairs or talks with diplomats, because he had been

8 delegated to be in charge of those tasks by the cabinet.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Which --

10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] There is an error in the transcript.

11 There's an error in the transcript. It says 1980; it should say 1998.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's been corrected.

13 Which prime minister told you this?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prime minister of Serbia. My

15 prime minister who delegated me. He told me that on the phone.

16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

17 Q. What do you know about Nikola Sainovic's tasks while he was in

18 Kosovo and Metohija?

19 A. He told me this himself, and I also learned it from the prime

20 minister of the Republic of Serbia. He was in charge of foreign policy,

21 of talks with foreign diplomatic representatives in Kosovo and Metohija.

22 He was in charge of coordinating all that, because I have to say, and I've

23 already pointed this out, at that time there were numerous diplomats in

24 Kosovo and Metohija.

25 The place was teeming with various ambassadors, ministers,

Page 14306

1 diplomats, lower-ranking diplomats, various missions from the European

2 Union. There was the European troika.

3 Q. And you who were there and the local authorities, were you able to

4 deal with foreign policy affairs independently?

5 A. Before going to Kosovo and Metohija, as a municipal president, I

6 had had the opportunity of meeting several ambassadors, but I didn't have

7 much experience with foreign diplomats. So, when in Kosovo and Metohija,

8 I was tasked with talking to foreign diplomats on various issues. This

9 was quite difficult for me, so I welcomed the arrival of Mr. Sainovic, as

10 we were acquaintances.

11 I found this very useful, and I took the liberty of asking him to

12 tell me about his experiences in that area, and I can tell you that I

13 welcomed his assistance in my work.

14 Q. Could one say that you exchanged information?

15 A. Yes, we did. I told him about the work I was doing, so that he

16 could make use of what I told him in his talks that he held. I asked him

17 to help me concerning certain issues. I was insufficiently familiar with,

18 I didn't understand sufficiently, and this helped me in those

19 conversations.

20 Q. During your stay in Kosovo, June, July, August, and September, did

21 you hear any mention of a body called a "Joint Command"?

22 A. No. While I was in Kosovo and Metohija, I never heard the term.

23 Later on, when the trial of Milosevic began, I read that somewhere in the

24 papers, in the press, and I heard it in various conversations. People

25 asked me what it was, and I would say, "Well, I don't know." I'd never

Page 14307

1 heard of it before.

2 Q. Do you know that in Kosovo and Metohija, in the summer of 1998,

3 there were also some representatives of the Socialist Party of Serbia,

4 that there were various state and political structures there, and that

5 they had joint meetings?

6 A. Yes, I know about that. On behalf of the Socialist Party of

7 Serbia - I am not sure precisely when, but I think around mid-July - a

8 three-member team arrived: Milomir Minic, Dusan Matkovic, and

9 Andjelovic --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Zoran Andjelkovic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in the SPS building, but

12 they also used the premises of the regional organs for certain talks they

13 had with various structures and with citizens.

14 I know that Dusan Matkovic was tasked with helping the economy by

15 making suggestion and so on, because he was the managing director of

16 Sartid in Smederevo, and he had a lot of experience in that area. And in

17 view of some work I had done on the economy in Kosovo and Metohija, I

18 worked in coordination with him. We discussed certain issues of

19 personnel, especially when there were companies that were in difficulties

20 of any kind, whether financial difficulties or difficulties in production.

21 I know that Zoran Andjelkovic was a party activist who travelled a

22 lot on the ground, and he also received certain parties for talks.

23 As for Milomir Minic, he dealt with party work. He held meetings,

24 attended meetings, consultations and so on, and he was there, too.

25 They worked both in the SPS building and in the regional premises

Page 14308

1 where they received people who came to see them. I also saw other

2 representatives at meetings held now and then in these buildings. There

3 were also individual representatives of the state organs such as --

4 Q. Did you attend any such meetings?

5 A. I did not attend such meetings, because my method of work was

6 mostly visiting on the ground. I had my own methods and my own ways of

7 getting information, so I felt no need of attending such meetings.

8 Q. Did Mr. Sainovic have any influence on your work as the

9 coordinator of the work of state organs, or did you influence his work?

10 A. No. Neither did he influence my work, nor did I influence his.

11 We cooperated as colleagues. We consulted one another. We had coffee

12 together. We had drinks together. We may even have had lunch once or

13 twice.

14 Q. You told us that back in 1998 you saw certain military and police

15 officers there. Do you know what it looked like back in 1998? How was

16 the army being commanded, and what about the police, and who was in charge

17 of what?

18 A. I'm not privy to any detail, but I happen to be a reserve officer

19 myself, and I know that the command in the army of Yugoslavia was strictly

20 in keeping with the chain of command. There was strict observance of

21 orders from superiors at their respective levels, and the same things

22 applies to the police force.

23 As it happens, the Minister of the Interior, Zlatko [as

24 interpreted] Stojiljkovic, happens to be from my native area. We hail

25 from the same area, and we talked about things sometimes, and once he told

Page 14309

1 me that they were making sure in the police force that there was strict

2 observance of the chain of command from him on down.

3 Q. My last question to you, Mr. Milosavljevic. You may be -- you

4 might as well start speaking very fast now, this being the last question.

5 I won't be getting at you for that.

6 Can you tell us something about Sainovic as a politician and an

7 economist, since you've known him for quite a long time?

8 A. This sort of thing is difficult to put in words, but I think he's

9 an excellent businessman, an excellent economist. As for him as a

10 politician, I find it difficult to say anything about that, but I think he

11 did a good job on the whole.

12 Sainovic is a person who throughout his career, throughout his

13 life, made intense efforts in all sorts of things. He wanted to create

14 new companies, to employ people, to create new jobs because there was

15 always a need for something like that to be done. He was highly regarded

16 in his native area and anywhere he worked, and any elections would show

17 that. He would always -- his name was always on the list. He was always

18 nominated. And wherever he happened to be, the results were always

19 exceptional.

20 The mining and foundry complex of Bor was a huge enterprise, and

21 he earned the respect of everyone, simple workers and leaders alike. He

22 was a man of principle, hard working, honourable. In my view, the kind of

23 person you would like to keep as a friend and you would like to be near.

24 Q. What were his views on a solution for Kosovo and Metohija?

25 A. I talked to him on a number of occasions in Bor and Zagubica, and

Page 14310

1 in Belgrade, too. I know that when he came to Kosovo and Metohija, he

2 advocated a solution by political means. He also advocated the use of the

3 best international and world standards. He said anything should be done

4 to keep the future solution within those perimeters.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I'm sorry for slowing you down all the time.

6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I will now give the floor to my

7 colleagues and the OTP. Thank you.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic?

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Line 3, the Minister of Interior, it's not "Zlatko"

10 but "Vlajko." I believe the witness said "Vlajko."

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, good afternoon.

13 A. I did say "Vlajko." I may have misspoken. I don't know.

14 Q. No, that's fine. That's fine, sir.

15 I said good afternoon.

16 A. Good afternoon to you. I didn't get it. I'm sorry.

17 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, you say that you were a minister in the

18 government of the Republic of Serbia between 1994 and 1998; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The government of the Republic of Serbia, can you tell me this:

21 There were sessions every Sunday, weren't there?

22 A. Normally, once a week. Sometimes, whenever the need arose, there

23 were more sessions than just one.

24 Q. These were on Thursdays for the most part?

25 A. Yes, one a week. But as a rule, it would be a Thursday.

Page 14311

1 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're concerned about the transcript, it's been

2 clarified now that the meetings are on Thursday.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, there was a stenographic

5 record drawn up of each of the government sessions, wasn't there?

6 A. I never wondered about that. I'm not into these technical

7 aspects, but I know that there was always a stenographic record, and there

8 should be one on each and every one of these government meetings.

9 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, in March 1998 - and we looked at 2D356. This

10 is a document appointing you as coordinator in Kosovo and Metohija - the

11 decision was adopted by Prime Minister Marjanovic. According to that

12 document, if I remember correctly - I'm not sure if we could maybe bring

13 this up in e-court - it was your responsibility to report back to the

14 prime minister, and this is something that you told us about, didn't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So your contacts with the government continued even after March

17 1998, didn't they?

18 A. Yes, of course. I was coordinator for the work of state organs

19 and also the president of the Committee for Establishing Damage Caused by

20 Natural Disasters. Until the very end of my term, which was in the year

21 of 2000, I remained president of that committee.

22 Q. You often travelled back to Belgrade to attend government sessions

23 throughout your time as coordinator back in 1998, while you were in Kosovo

24 and Metohija, did you not?

25 A. I didn't travel back that often, but I did go several times, yes.

Page 14312

1 Q. Were you in touch with the prime minister and the government

2 throughout your time in Kosovo and Metohija?

3 A. Absolutely. At least once a week, at least. At the very least

4 once a week, I would report back to Prime Minister Mirko Marjanovic;

5 sometimes even more frequently by phone. I would give him a ring whenever

6 there was a problem that I needed help one.

7 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, do you know that the president of Serbia,

8 Milutinovic, in October 1998, informed the government of the Republic of

9 is Serbia about the contents of the Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement? Are

10 you aware of that?

11 A. I read about that in the news papers. I had undergone surgery

12 already at that time.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: He was flat on his back at that time, Mr. Zecevic.

14 Can we get to the point of something that he might have some personal

15 experience of?

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, Your Honours.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milosavljevic, did you ever see President

18 Milutinovic? Did President Milutinovic attend any of the government

19 sessions that you also attended?

20 A. During my time as a member of the cabinet, Mr. Milutinovic never

21 once attended a government session.

22 Q. Did another member of the cabinet, at any time, perhaps tell you

23 that President Milutinovic had attended any of the government sessions,

24 apart from the one that I specified in October 1998?

25 A. No. I never heard anything like that; and to be perfectly honest,

Page 14313

1 I didn't ask.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: No further questions for this witness.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Mr. Bakrac.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do have

5 several questions about this witness's personal experience.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, I'm Mihajlo Bakrac, Attorney at

8 Law. I will ask you questions on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.

9 First of all, I will have several questions to ask. But before we

10 start, it would be a good idea for us to look at a short video clip.

11 Please, there is no need for you to pay special attention to the comments

12 made by the journalist. Pay attention to the image itself and what's

13 going on.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is Defence Exhibit

15 5D1239.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. That was it, Mr. Milosavljevic. Based on this footage, I would

19 like to ask you a couple of questions now.

20 Did you notice yourself in this recording, among other people?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember the location of this visit?

23 A. This was in the town of Malisevo.

24 Q. Do you remember when this visit occurred?

25 A. It occurred in mid-August 1998.

Page 14314

1 Q. Can you tell us what the purpose was for this visit to Malisevo in

2 mid-August 1998?

3 A. The purpose of my visit, in the presence of the district of the

4 Prizren -- of the president of the Prizren district, Ms. Furjanovic, the

5 mayor of Pristina, and my assistant Toma Kujundzic, whom you can also see

6 in the footage, was to see what the situation was in humanitarian terms in

7 the town of Malisevo.

8 Complaints had been made about the work of the health unit, in

9 terms of the preparations that were being made and in terms of the

10 operations of the health unit. I went to see for myself what the matter

11 was on that day, and I could reassure myself that things were working

12 relatively smoothly. When I say "smoothly," I mean there was humanitarian

13 aid there. It was stationed there in some warehouses and was in the

14 process of being distributed to its users.

15 The health unit at the time had but a single doctor and a nurse

16 had who would travel there occasionally, and yet preparations were being

17 made to set up an entire health station.

18 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, one of the OTP's witnesses, Colonel Crosland,

19 in this trial - the transcript reference is 9807, lines 22 and 23 - stated

20 that in July 1998 Malisevo was razed to the ground.

21 So I'm asking you now. You were in Malisevo in August, and we saw

22 that for ourselves. Is it true what Colonel Crosland suggested? Can it

23 be true?

24 A. It is certainly not true. What they say where I come from is:

25 Lies or short-lived. You can see in the footage that some minor damage

Page 14315

1 had occurred, but nothing like that.

2 I personally passed through the centre of town. I crossed.

3 Mirusa River. I drank not a single beer. I actually had two beers. It

4 was a particularly hot day, and everybody who was with me felt the same

5 way about the heat.

6 Q. Mr. Milosavljevic, let me ask you this: Are you aware of the

7 ethnic make-up of the town of Malisevo?

8 A. It was 100 per cent Albanian, which means that the population was

9 100 per cent Albanian. The town numbers about 10.000 inhabitants. It's a

10 lovely place.

11 Q. And my last question for you: Who was this humanitarian aid for

12 then?

13 A. Our citizens. And in this case, they were Albanians, our Albanian

14 population; some of them in Crni Lug. They took advantage of this

15 humanitarian aid as well.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Milosavljevic. I have no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

19 Mr. Hannis.

20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Sorry, I'm having troubles

21 with my microphone. Let me use this one.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

23 Q. Good afternoon, sir. You'll forgive me if I don't pronounce your

24 name correctly. I'm having difficulty with it, Mr. Milosavljevic. In one

25 of the questions earlier by Mr. Fila, he asked you if you were a member of

Page 14316

1 the SPS. And your answer was that no, you were not a member of any party.

2 What time period were you talking about when you answered that

3 question?

4 A. I was talking about when I was chosen to be a minister in the

5 government of the Republic of Serbia.

6 Q. Were you ever a member of any political party?

7 A. I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and I

8 was expelled from the party, and then I filed a complaint. When the

9 Socialist Party was formed, then this matter was transferred to the

10 archives. So that's it.

11 Q. And from when to when were you a member of the League of

12 Communists?

13 A. Until October 1989.

14 Q. And since then you've not been a member of any political party;

15 is that your testimony?

16 MR. HANNIS: Maybe the Defence is back on line, Your Honour, I'm

17 not sure.

18 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I had a little explosion of sound in my

19 headphones.

20 Did you hear my question?

21 A. Please repeat it. I didn't hear it because I certainly heard the

22 sound in my headphones, too.

23 Q. My question was: So, since October 1989, you've not been a member

24 of any political party?

25 A. In 1995, I became a member of the Yugoslav Left.

Page 14317

1 Q. And that is a party that's associated with Slobodan Milosevic's

2 wife, Mrs. Markovic, correct, Mira Markovic?

3 A. She was a member of that party, too. That is a fact.

4 Q. Were you one of the founding members of JUL?

5 A. I was one of the members. I did not have any high positions in

6 that party. I was a member of the Main Board.

7 Q. And when did you cease to be a member of JUL?

8 A. I ceased to be a member of JUL in 2000, in the year 2000, towards

9 the end.

10 Q. Have you heard of an organisation, some sort of honourary

11 commission called "Remembrance and Hope"?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I'll have to check the translation. Maybe my English is not good.

14 So, during the time that you were serving as the coordinator in

15 Kosovo you, were a member of JUL; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you first became a minister in 1995; is that right?

18 A. That is not right. I became a minister on the 21st of March,

19 1994.

20 Q. And what were you minister of at that time?

21 A. I was a minister without portfolio in charge of development,

22 reconstruction, and promoting local self-government.

23 Q. Who selected you or appointed you to that position?

24 A. I was proposed by the prime minister designate, Mirko Marjanovic,

25 and I was selected by the national assembly of the Republic of Serbia.

Page 14318

1 Q. How long did you serve in that position?

2 A. I've already said that. I served a full term from the elections

3 until being relieved from office, for as long as the term of the Serbian

4 Assembly was valid.

5 Q. Could you give me a date for that?

6 A. Date? I may make a mistake in day or two. The 21st of March,

7 1994, the 24th of March, 1998.

8 Q. I also understood that you sort of served as a Minister for

9 Refugees; is that not correct?

10 A. I was not Minister for Refugees. I was Minister for Religious

11 Affairs from September 1997 until the 24th of March, 1998, because the

12 previous minister had joined the ranks of ambassadors, and then I was

13 supposed to replace him until the term expired.

14 Q. And what does the -- what does the Minister for Religious Affairs

15 do?

16 A. The Minister for Religious Affairs maintains relations with church

17 organs; carries out administrative work in relation to churches, all

18 denominations; maintains contacts with the representatives of all

19 religious communities; channels from an administrative point various

20 activities in terms of legislative activity, laws, and so on.

21 In order for that to be able to function, I also dealt with issues

22 pertaining to the return of property that had been taken away from the

23 churches in 1945 and after that. Of course, I had these contacts. And

24 during this period of time, I saw the patriarch three times, and several

25 times I met with bishops; mostly with the Bishop of Kragujevac, then the

Page 14319

1 Bishop of Sabac, the Bishop of Pozarevac, the Bishop of Zica, the Bishop

2 of Nis, and so on.

3 Q. When you took up those duties, what happened to the work you'd

4 been doing regarding development reconstruction and promoting local

5 self-government. Did you continue to do that job, or did someone take

6 over your old job?

7 A. I did both; but in the meantime, a minister for local

8 self-government was established, and I had less work in that area. So I

9 was disburdened, and I could do my work as far as religious affairs was

10 concerned in a more comfortable way.

11 Q. Well, let me show you now a document. This is Exhibit P2877.

12 Sir, if you could have a look at this. This relates to a question I asked

13 you earlier, and maybe we can sort out whether it's a translation issue or

14 something else.

15 This is from the Official Gazette of the Republic of Serbia, and

16 it's from 2000, from the year 2000, and it's a decision on organising the

17 event "Remembrance and Hope."

18 MR. HANNIS: I think we may have to go to the bottom of the

19 left-hand column. Yes.

20 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Milosavljevic?

21 A. Yes, I see that.

22 MR. HANNIS: And then if we could go to the top of the right-hand

23 column.

24 Q. Does that refresh your recollection about that particular

25 commission?

Page 14320

1 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

2 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what that was about?

3 A. This was a particular event marking a particular anniversary.

4 This honourary committee never held a single meeting. I was appointed, I

5 guess, as one of the people who had helped Aleksinac in some matters, and

6 I did not even attend the event itself.

7 In my view, this is more of a -- well, there was some committee

8 that prepared this and people who were doing that. I was on the honourary

9 committee. Of course, I had been appointed, but not a single session of

10 this committee was held; at least, I did not take part in a single

11 session.

12 Q. And on the persons who are members with you, it also included

13 General Pavkovic; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Mrs. Markovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you're listed as being a member of JUL; correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I'm not denying that. General Pavkovic hails from

19 Aleksinac, and that was one of the criteria.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. HANNIS: I'm finished with that document.

22 Q. Now, when you became appointed to this position for coordinating

23 things in Kosovo, how did it first -- how did that first come about? Were

24 you approached and asked if you were willing to do this job, or were you

25 nominated? Did you volunteer? How did you get that job?

Page 14321

1 A. The job of coordinator of state organs is one I got in the

2 following way: The prime minister, Mirjanovic, invited me to his office

3 and asked me whether I would wish to work in Kosovo and Metohija as

4 coordinator of the state organs.

5 The reason for my particular engagement, as he explained it to me

6 then, lie in the fact that he had enormous trust in me. That was the

7 result of my previous work in the government, and also due to the fact

8 that I had vast experience in conducting affairs as far as municipalities

9 and districts are concerned, because I have already pointed out that I was

10 president of a municipality for 12 years, that is to say, I served three

11 terms of office; that is to say, that I was very well-versed in economic

12 matters, financial, and so on.

13 I had exceptional energy for travel, work. I never kept strict

14 working hours. In the government, I would start working at 7.00 in the

15 morning and working hours started from 9.00 a.m., and that was a

16 recommendation in his eyes when he suggested that I be coordinator. I

17 thought about it briefly, and I accepted to go knowing what the problems

18 were, and I knew that quite simply there was work to be done there.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, can you find a suitable place to

20 interrupt?

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour I can.

22 Q. And I can certainly see that, sir. You certainly seem to have a

23 lot of energy and more than me.

24 MR. HANNIS: I think this would be a good time for us to break for

25 the day.

Page 14322

1 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Just a little question. What was the status of

2 the coordinator, please? Could you, sir, answer this: What was the

3 status in terms of government hierarchy? What was your status? Were you

4 equal to a minister or equal to a mayor or what would be the status? And

5 were you paid for this job?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My earnings came in my capacity as

7 president of the Committee for Dealing with Natural Disasters. That is a

8 government organ; and to be quite honest, I didn't put any questions

9 because that's the way I worked during my life. It was important for me

10 to work. I spent most of my time getting things done for my own area, but

11 I accepted this in view of the fact that it was necessary to work down

12 there.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: We're short of time at this stage. Could you deal

14 with the specific question, please, about where you stood so far as status

15 is concerned.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My status was coordinator of the

17 work of the state organs. It did not have a particular rank, but it was

18 held in high regard, if I can put it that way, briefly.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosavljevic, this courtroom, regrettably, is

20 required by another case this afternoon, so we have to end our proceedings

21 at this stage. That means that you will have to return tomorrow to

22 continue your evidence. Tomorrow, we have what's commonly known as the

23 graveyard slot. We are sitting in the afternoon on tomorrow, Friday, so

24 your evidence will continue at 2.15 p.m. tomorrow.

25 Meanwhile, it's vital that you do not discuss the evidence in the

Page 14323

1 case with anyone. You can discuss whatever else you like with whoever you

2 like, but no discussion whatsoever of the evidence. Please now leave the

3 courtroom with the usher and return here to recommence at 2.15 tomorrow.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day of

7 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.