1 Thursday, 30 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Matkovic. Good afternoon,
6 Mr. Matkovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: We will now continue with cross-examination by the
9 Prosecution, and on this occasion you will be asked questions by
10 Mr. Stamp.
11 Mr. Stamp.
12 And, sorry, just one other thing. I should remind you that the
13 solemn declaration you made yesterday to speak the truth in your evidence
14 continues to apply to your evidence today.
15 Mr. Stamp.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 WITNESS: DUSAN MATKOVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness appeared via videolink]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Matkovic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Yesterday you were shown a document which is a record of the
24 operations in the departmental staff for the suppression of terrorism in
25 Kosovo, meeting of the 29th of October, 1998.
1 MR. STAMP: And that, Your Honours, is P2216.
2 Q. And you saw that it is recorded there that many people at that
3 meeting, including Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Milutinovic, Mr. Sainovic,
4 Mr. Minic, used the term "Joint Command." Do you recall hearing any of
5 them or anybody using that term in that meeting?
6 A. Yesterday after this session I tried to think back. I tried to
7 recall that meeting. As far as I remember, the meeting did, indeed, take
8 place. In a way, this was the last meeting with President Milosevic in
9 relation to what was going on in Kosovo. May I continue, please?
10 Q. Just a minute, I'm not getting a clear -- can you hold, please,
11 Mr. Matkovic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.
13 MR. STAMP: I'm getting a lot of feedback. I'm not hearing what
14 is being said very well. Yes, it's still there. Is there another -- do
15 you have another one of these.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. Mr. Matkovic, can you hear me?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Matkovic. I think we are fine now. You were
23 saying that you --
24 A. I'm glad it's fine. May I repeat what I said?
25 Q. No, no, I can read it. Thank you very much. You recall the
1 meeting. Do you recall what is recorded in the minutes? Do you recall --
2 A. I tried to recall yesterday after my testimony, and I think this
3 was the last meeting in the office of President Milosevic after what had
4 happened in Kosovo, and we never met again in that same composition.
5 Q. Very well --
6 A. Of course I'm telling you everything based on my memory and on my
8 Q. Very well. Now --
9 A. And I can't remember that anyone used terms like the "Joint
10 Command" at that meeting. Needless to say, I would like to add a thing or
11 two about that; however, it's your show. If you want to continue with
12 your questions, please fire away.
13 Q. You also attended meetings on a daily basis in Kosovo in 1998.
14 Did you hear anybody at any of those meetings use a term "Joint Command"?
15 A. I explained yesterday, first of all, that those meetings did not
16 take place on a daily basis. They were frequent, sometimes daily.
17 Secondly, that term was not an official term. If someone used it- and I
18 explained yesterday that as far as I could remember -- I had heard it used
19 by a military man, somewhere because it is a police, a military term, but
20 we did not use that as an official term, it's not a term that we agreed
21 on. It's not a term that we used --
22 Q. Yes, but --
23 A. Therefore, wherever I happened to be, at whichever meeting, that
24 term was not used in an official manner. Please go ahead.
25 Q. Yes, I understand that. Whether it was used officially or
1 unofficially, all I'm asking you is: Did you hear the term used in the
2 meeting, in any of those meetings in Kosovo?
3 A. Well, I said yesterday, didn't I, that I had heard of the term,
4 but that term wasn't used in the sense of being used continuously. If
5 someone used it, if one comes across that term in one of these documents
6 westbound as someone using the term "Joint Command," then this is their
7 own business, they used it and that's that.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Matkovic, I'm stopping you there. The question
9 is very simple: Did you hear that expression being used in any of the
10 meetings you attended, yes or no?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very rarely.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. On the occasions you heard it being used in those meetings, can
15 you remember who used it?
16 A. No, I can't. The term was used very often and it wasn't an
17 official term. There is something that I wish to point out again just in
18 order to clarify my view, my experience, and the truth that I was facing
19 at the time as well as the Working Group, the SPS Working Group, the
20 people I was with. This term "Joint Command," anywhere in the world would
21 imply some form of organisation, a command post, a command being
22 exercised, a commander being there --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Matkovic, I'm stopping you again. You're not
24 answering the question that you were asked. You've now said that this
25 expression was used very often. Will you now tell us where it was used
1 very often. Never mind whether it was official or not official, you've
2 made your point repeatedly about that. Just tell us where it was used
3 very often.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I had heard
5 the term used very rarely, and I think it was in an informal context but
6 certainly not at any of the official meetings.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I was just trying to explain
9 what this means, the Joint Command, but wherever I was, with the SPS team,
10 the term was not used and I think I was crystal clear about that.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I will ask if anyone was listening in court
12 in Serbian to what was said in the answer at line 17 of page 4 and whether
13 the witness said "very often" or "very rarely" at that stage. Can anyone
14 help me on that?
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this point in time that
16 you're referring to, he did say "very often" indeed but before that he did
17 say "very rarely," so that may be --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Matkovic, your idea of what is crystal clear is
19 entirely different from mine. You've said "very rarely" and you've
20 said "very often." Please bear in mind that that is a very confusing
21 situation for us. Can you clarify it?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, it was your
23 question that I answered in the most direct manner possible, very rarely.
24 I abide by that. If I used the term "very often," then it was a slip of
25 the tongue on my part and please accept my apologies. I would like to
1 tell you the following: According to my information and based on where
2 all the occasions where I was physically present, there was no such thing
3 as the Joint Command, and I hope this clarifies it.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Yes, Mr. Matkovic, I understand what you are saying. All I'm
7 asking about is the use of the term. Now, I understand you to be saying
8 that you heard the term being used very rarely and you answered earlier
9 that you heard it being used very rarely in the meetings that I was asking
10 you about. And later on you seem to be saying that it was not used in the
11 meetings. I'd like to clarify that. You said that it was used very
12 rarely in the meetings that you attended in 1998; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, very rarely.
14 Q. Now --
15 A. And I --
16 Q. -- Can you recall --
17 A. -- Can't remember the term being used -- what?
18 Q. Can you recall who used it in those meetings that you attended in
20 A. I don't remember who used the term. I don't remember anyone using
21 that term. I said I only heard it in informal situations and, above all,
22 from military officials.
23 Q. When you heard it being used very rarely, as you put it, at the
24 meetings that you attended, do you know what it was referring to, what it
25 meant when you heard it being used in those meetings?
1 A. When I heard it in informal communication, this was something
2 associated in my mind with the military or police. As for the meetings
3 that I attended those were working meetings to pass on information. It
4 was about coordination. It certainly didn't involve anything such as a
5 command or the exercise of command in general.
6 Q. Very well.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: If you're moving on I want to ask.
8 What do you mean by the answer that you've just given. The word
9 used -- the expression you say was used informally in coordination
10 meetings, what was meant by it when it was used in this informal way? Why
11 were the words "joint" and "command" put together in the context in which
12 you heard them?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I heard the term used
14 informally, not at any of the meetings. What this term called to mind for
15 me was military and police structures, and military and police officials
16 would be best placed to answer that question. Your Honour, I do wish to
17 point out this: The meetings that I attended had no command structure to
18 them, no command, no minutes were taken. These were working, the meetings
19 where information was being passed along.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: You've now clouded the issue further because you've
21 already clearly said the expression was used informally but at the
22 meetings you attended. Are you now saying it was not used in the meetings
23 you attended but somewhere else; and if so, please tell us where?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember such terms being
25 used at any of the meetings officially, such as "Joint Command." I don't
1 remember that kind of term being used and I definitely wish to get this
2 clarified. I heard the term being used outside those meetings,
3 informally, by military men, the term "Joint Command" being used. And
4 what this implied for me was the existence of a military structure or a
5 police structure or something like that, but that's as far as I can go in
6 answering that question. And it really is my intention to help as much as
7 I can. But it's quite obvious to me that your questions have to do with a
8 hypothesis that you have on the one hand, but on the other hand, what I'm
9 telling you is what I came across in my work and it comes down to the
10 following sentence: There was no such thing as a Joint Command in the
11 sense of politicians and other persons being involved, especially not in
12 the sense of a Working Group from the SPS being involved. I hope this
13 makes it perfectly clear.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: There will be a moment of silence while the Judges
15 confer with each other.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue, Mr. Stamp.
18 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
19 Q. Do you recall who were the military men who used that word or that
20 expression to you?
21 A. I don't think I can recall any names. I'm doing my best, but I
22 simply cannot. We would meet with representatives of the VJ in the
23 Executive Council building and also in their own offices. It was
24 probably then that I heard the term being used by one of them, but I can't
25 remember who specifically or their names.
1 Q. Very well, Mr. Matkovic. Can I move on to something else. You
2 recall, do you, that after you were appointed by the Main Board of the
3 party on the 10th of June, 1998, to be a part of this Working Group in
4 respect of Kosovo, you went there with Gorica Gajevic, Mr. Andjelkovic, or
5 Mr. Minic to get information or minutes on what the situation was in
6 Kosovo. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes, I do recall that meeting and the meeting that we had in
8 Pristina. I did testify about that yesterday.
9 Q. Very well. And subsequently on the 25th of June you returned to
10 Belgrade and you had a meeting where you reported your findings to
11 President Milosevic. Do you recall that meeting of the 25th of June?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And present at the meeting were the members of the Working Group,
14 the three members of the Working Group, including yourself, Gorica Gajevic
15 Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Milutinovic, and Mr. Sainovic. Do you remember that
16 they were present at this meeting when you reported your findings?
17 A. Yes. I think I did say that yesterday, didn't I?
18 Q. Can you recall what Mr. Milutinovic's role was at that meeting?
19 A. Well, when we came to the meeting we found President Milosevic
20 there and he was the person who called that meeting, as well as
21 Milutinovic and Sainovic. They were all already there when the four of us
22 arrived. Three of us members of the Working Group and Ms. Gorica Gajevic
23 was there in her capacity as secretary-general and she had been at the
24 Pristina meeting with us, so that's why she was there. Before this we had
25 met in her office and held a one-hour meeting and that was before we went
1 to meet with President Milosevic --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Matkovic, please, please answer the question
3 which is: What was Mr. Milutinovic's role at the meeting?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Milutinovic was the
5 president of Serbia, and I believe that he was there in that capacity. He
6 did not take part in the discussion at that particular meeting as far as I
7 remember; he was just there, sat in on the meeting, if that's what you're
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. Can I take you to a later meeting. Do you recall another meeting
11 of the 20th of June, 1998, in Belgrade, again called by Mr. Milosevic?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not a later meeting.
13 MR. STAMP: The 20th of July, I beg your pardon.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. Do you recall that meeting of the 20th of July, 1998, again
17 convened by Mr. Milosevic in Belgrade?
18 A. I do remember that there was an important meeting in Belgrade with
19 Mr. Milosevic.
20 Q. And I'll try to remind you some of the people who attended that
21 meeting. Present there also was Mr. Milutinovic; Mr. Sainovic; Generals
22 Aleksandar Dimitrijevic; Dusan Samardzic, who at the time was commander of
23 the 3rd Army; General Perisic. Do you recall those people being there?
24 A. Yes, now that you read out the names I do remember. You have
25 jogged my memory.
1 Q. And also there from the military side was General Pavkovic,
2 correct? Is that correct? General Pavkovic was there?
3 A. Yes, yes. I remember that Pavkovic was present, yes.
4 Q. And there were also persons from the police or from the military
5 from the Ministry of the Interior, including the minister himself, Vlajko
6 Stojiljkovic, Vlastimir Djordjevic --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That is Vlastimir Djordjevic and Sreten Lukic. Do you remember
9 them being there?
10 A. Yes, I think I do remember.
11 Q. And -- well, before we go into the meeting can I just ask you
12 this: Present at that meeting were members of the police, members of the
13 army, president of the republic, president of the Federation, the deputy
14 president of the federal government, Mr. Sainovic. So we have people from
15 the state structures there. In what capacity were you at that meeting?
16 A. The meeting was convened by the president of the republic, and as
17 in any other country in the world, when the president of the republic
18 invites you, you have the honour and obligation to attend such a meeting.
19 And I think that the president invited us as the Working Group in Kosovo,
20 charged with dealing with the economic and political issues in Kosovo. So
21 it was normal and natural for us to be present and to present our views
22 from the political standpoint. But the meeting was convened by President
23 Milosevic, and he knew the reasons why he invited all these people. The
24 meeting was certainly of the greatest importance in your country and in
25 any country when the president of the republic calls a meeting you know
1 how significant it is.
2 Q. So it would be normal for members of the state government and the
3 federal government to have meetings of this nature with Working Groups
4 from the party present and participating?
5 A. I wouldn't say that it was customary. This meeting was convened
6 because of extremely important and disturbing events in Kosovo which were
7 important not for Serbia but the whole world. I was following CNN
8 reports, daily reports, about events in Kosovo --
9 Q. I see, very well.
10 A. -- so it was really an emergency situation.
11 Q. Now, at that meeting Mr. Milutinovic -- Mr. Milosevic said that
12 plans for an anti-terrorist programme were going to be adopted and that
13 all of you, including your group from the party and other -- other persons
14 from the various state bodies, had parts to play in this programme. Do
15 you recall that?
16 A. Well, you see, it was an extremely important meeting and there are
17 things that one really does remember and less important things that one
18 forgets. So this is one of the events that I remember quite well,
19 although it took place many years ago. And Mr. Milosevic said that the
20 situation was serious, extremely important, and that each one should give
21 his utmost. And he made a proposal for this plan of anti-terrorist
22 struggle to be adopted, which would consist of several stages, and the
23 proposal was made and elaborated upon by General Pavkovic.
24 Q. So General Pavkovic proposed or presented this plan, and did you
25 all agree upon it?
1 A. It was not a question of the three or four of us politicians
2 agreeing. President Milosevic said that this plan was adopted and that
3 this -- it had to be implemented, that it was the duty of the army. And
4 we felt that we had to do our part of the work, meaning to ensure the
5 functioning of the economy, to work on the political situation, et
6 cetera. So this is implied.
7 Q. Did --
8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, we were not there in the capacity of people who
9 were supposed to vote and adopt a programme. We were there to hear it, to
10 be informed. When General Pavkovic explained these future anti-terrorist
11 actions, Milosevic said that it should be implemented and there was not a
12 question of us agreeing or disagreeing or voting on it.
13 Q. I see. Part of the plan for that meeting was an offensive or an
14 offensive, a military and police offensive against the KLA in the summer;
15 is that correct?
16 A. I think so, but I would change the terminology. It wasn't an
17 offensive against the KLA. It was anti-terrorist activity to suppress
18 terrorism in Kosovo, and terrorism in Kosovo took the form of the
19 activities of the KLA. So the struggle to suppress terrorism in Kosovo,
20 that is how I would put it. And Pavkovic elaborated on it on behalf of
21 the army, and I assume that when he did so the commander of the 3rd Army
22 was present and the Chief of Staff, then that he had previously along his
23 chain of command received support for this and the same applies to the
24 police. They coordinate their plans along their own chain of commands,
25 and then they present it to the president of the state.
1 Q. I see. Could I take you to -- before we do that there is one
2 thing I forgot to ask you. Can you remember the role that Mr. Milutinovic
3 played in that meeting? Did he say anything?
4 A. I don't remember Mr. Milutinovic being active at that meeting and
5 taking part in the discussion. I really do not remember.
6 Q. There was another meeting convened by Mr. Milosevic that I wish to
7 ask you about, and that is the meeting of September 10, 1998. Do you
8 recall that meeting, it was just with Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Minic,
9 Mr. Andjelkovic, and yourself?
10 A. Oh, yes, yes, you've reminded me now. I do remember. And I
11 remember roughly the purpose of that meeting. Will you ask your question
12 or do you want me to tell you?
13 Q. Please, what was the purpose of that meeting?
14 A. Unlike the meeting in July when the central issue was the struggle
15 against terrorism, which had really taken -- had developed extensively,
16 now the struggle against terrorism was being reduced in degree. The KLA
17 had reduced its activity. And then this Working Group for political
18 issues met to --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- play an increasingly important role in the functioning of state
21 institutions and bringing life back to normal. And it was along those
22 lines that there was the proposal to form the Temporary Executive
23 Council. That was the purpose of that meeting.
24 Q. So at that meeting Mr. Milosevic decided to form the Temporary
25 Executive Council; is that correct?
1 A. He accepted the proposal to form a Temporary Executive Council,
2 and the proposal came from the political structures in Kosovo, which we
3 had reviewed and passed on to the Executive Board and our
4 secretary-general and the president, and the president agreed in order to
5 help life take a normal course; that was the purpose of this Temporary
6 Executive Council, to take care of regular supplies, production, for this
7 academic year to get started, education, et cetera.
8 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further for this witness, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
10 Mr. Fila.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I apologise. I hadn't noted that
12 Mr. Stamp had finished.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Fila:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Matkovic, I have just a few questions for you
15 even though you answered most of them. We were -- we mentioned the Main
16 Board of the SPS for the Working Group to go to Kosovo, and we've
17 discussed this at length. And we've also seen the document of the Main
18 Board. I wish to ask you the following, please give me a yes or no answer
19 if possible. When he nominated you to the Working Group, did President
20 Milosevic or anyone else at that meeting use the term "Joint Command"?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You told us that when you arrived in Kosovo you first had fewer
23 meetings, but later they became on a daily basis with representatives of
24 state institutions, and I'm thinking of the army now. At any of those
25 meetings, when those meetings were quite rare, was it decided that these
1 meetings should be referred to as the Joint Command?
2 A. No, I categorically assert that that was not the case.
3 Q. When you went to these meetings that you described as meetings for
4 the purpose of the exchange of information, did you personally or the
5 Working Group did give commands, issue orders, or did anyone outside the
6 Working Group issue commands and orders to that Working Group at meetings?
7 A. The general answer is no, but it needs a lot of explaining to show
8 that that was impossible. I was saying this yesterday and I wish to
9 underline that it was impossible for anyone outside the structures of the
10 police and the army to give them instructions. Because you all know
11 better than I do that there was a hierarchy, subordination, a chain --
12 going from the corps to the forward command, the General Staff or the
13 army, General Lukic, General Djordjevic, the minister of the interior. So
14 it is absolutely not reasonable to imagine anyone outside those bodies to
15 issue orders, not to mention a serious state faced with such a situation
16 as we were at that time.
17 Q. The Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis, insisted repeatedly, and you refuted
18 those assertions, that those were meetings, the meetings that you
19 attended, were meetings of the Joint Command and you described what took
20 place at those meetings as you saw it. In your opinion, what should have
21 happened at the meetings that you attended for them to be able to be
22 referred to as a Joint Command?
23 MR. STAMP: He's asking the witness to speculate. The question is
24 vague and it invites the witness to give speculative replies.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] May I explain?
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: The point has been made so often, Mr. Stamp, that
3 it would be futile to stop the question at this particular stage.
4 So please proceed, Mr. Fila.
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I asked you, since you have described what was going on at those
7 meetings, don't do that again, because it would be repetitious. What
8 would need to happen at those meetings for it to be able to be called a
9 command or a Joint Command?
10 A. I hope that this will be for the last time that I will be giving
11 an explanation. After yesterday's testimony I gathered more information.
12 For it to be a Joint Command there must be a document forming it, which
13 doesn't exist. It needs to have a command post, a commander, reports,
14 minutes which are adopted at every meeting, and briefings on the
15 implementation of tasks. Not a single of these elements existed in the
16 case of the meetings which I attended, and that was how yesterday I
17 endeavoured to explain to Their Honours and the Prosecutor that the
18 meetings I attended do not have the characteristics of a Joint Command and
19 were not a Joint Command. They were consultative information meetings in
20 a situation of extraordinary importance, not just for Serbia but for the
21 world, at which we exchanged information.
22 Q. If anyone were to say that this was the Joint Command, would you
23 agree or not agree with it?
24 A. If somebody used that term, then it's up to them and those people
25 should be asked. I explained that this was not officially used and that I
1 don't remember.
2 Q. The Prosecutor showed you P1468.
3 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] So could this document be shown once
4 again to the witness, especially the second page, please.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you do look at that document, you said
6 a moment ago that after yesterday's testimony you gathered more
7 information. What did you do to gather more information?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I went home after
9 testifying and I was explaining -- I was told that I was under oath. Of
10 course I didn't have any communication with anyone. I sat at home and I
11 read through the encyclopedia that my children have and that I have in my
12 library what a command means, commanding, control and command, and a Joint
13 Command, and this only confirmed my opinions and the truthfulness of what
14 I told you yesterday.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
16 Mr. Fila.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. As I said, could the witness be shown, please, Exhibit P1468, page
20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think he has that.
21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Matkovic, in the third line it says "ZK" and there's a date.
23 A. I can't see that. Just a moment, please. Apparently this is not
24 the same page.
25 Q. Page 2, please.
1 A. Ah, the second line.
2 Q. You see the date? K0228413, K0228413.
3 A. Yes, it's okay. I can see it.
4 Q. And you see the date of the meeting, that was the first meeting in
5 this document, if it's a document that you have received?
6 A. In my opinion, this is not an official document.
7 Q. Yes, we've heard you say that. The first date mentioned is the
8 22nd of July, 1998. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have looked at this document. All the subsequent meetings
11 were held later. My question is: Before the 22nd of July, did you hold
12 meetings with the people listed here individually or all of them
13 together? You see there are representatives of the army and the police.
14 Did you have any meetings of that kind earlier on?
15 A. As far as I can remember, we had meetings linked to the Belacevac
16 open-cast mine when the terrorists broke in and abducted the workers, and
17 then we went to see General Djordjevic and General Pavkovic and we asked
18 them for their assistance because that was what the people demanded of us.
19 Q. My question -- my next question is: The meetings that preceded
20 this one on the 22nd of July, were they referred to as a Joint Command or
21 did you decide at any of those meetings that the meetings that would be
22 held after the 22nd of July would be called "Joint Command"?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If I understood you correctly, the previous meetings do not differ
25 from these meetings after the 22nd of July, do they?
1 A. Not in essence. All these meetings were devoted to information
2 and coordination of activities to bring life back to normal.
3 Q. The Prosecutor showed you the minutes from a meeting held on the
4 29th of October. You answered that question. Thank you, Mr. Matkovic,
5 you already answered more than half the questions I had intended to ask
6 you and thank you for your kindness and for coming to testify.
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this
8 witness, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Matkovic, how were the meetings that are
13 recorded in that document convened?
14 A. You mean the last document that Mr. Fila has showed me, the
15 meeting of the ZK for KiM?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, how were you notified of these meetings?
17 A. Your Honour, I will take the liberty of reminding you that I
18 talked about this yesterday but I will repeat. Following the meeting on
19 the 20th of July, the meeting held in President Milosevic's office when
20 the situation was very difficult, we all realised that the situation was
21 exceptionally serious and that we had to work at full tilt, each in our
22 own respective jobs. So we travelled to Pristina. And, quite simply, the
23 need arose because there was a lot of information coming in every day
24 about roads being blocked about houses being attacked about rapes and
25 murder about factories being put out of operation. We all had to --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Matkovic, Mr. Matkovic, just --
2 A. I'm about to wrap it up, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what you've told us so far is useless, so
4 please tell us something that answers the question.
5 A. Yes, I was just about to say that there was a need for
6 communication, for exchanging information, and we agreed to meet in the
7 Executive Council building at the time of the evening news, the Serbian TV
8 evening news, so we could watch the evening news all together and exchange
9 information. That's how this initiative first came about and that's when
10 it started happening, and it soon grew to be on a daily basis or at least
11 it was from time to time.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Before it became daily, though, how did you know
13 which days to meet together?
14 A. Well, many serious incidents were happening every day and we spoke
15 to each other on the phone, and we probably told each other at the time,
16 Let's all get together, let's all see what we can do. I remember with
17 particular vividness what happened in Orahovac when that 50 or even a
18 hundred people from Orahovac simply went straight into the building, and
19 we had to call someone from the army or from the police to see what we
20 could do about this because citizens required action. An Albanian was
21 killed because he wouldn't allow his daughter or son to be recruited into
22 the Kosovo Liberation Army. They killed him in a grewsome way so the
23 local Albanians called us over and, of course, we passed the message over
24 to General Djordjevic, to General Pavkovic that we should meet. We phoned
25 them, we started meeting, and over time - and I think you understand this
1 situation full well - this became an exchange of information for which
2 there was a real need.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Who was it that informed you of the time and the
4 place that you should meet when you were not meeting on a daily basis?
5 Who was the person who took these decisions?
6 A. I wouldn't call those decisions. There was a need for
7 communicating, for holding meetings. Very often the initiative meetings
8 would come from the three of us and we were all sitting in the same
9 offices. I said yesterday to call people, to get together, to exchange
10 information. Every day we were in contact with the citizens, with the
11 people there, and they were facing a great amount of hardship. We were
12 under a lot of pressure to provide some answers as to what would become of
13 the Belacevac mine, the abductees of the Orahovac -- why was this factory
14 now out of operation.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: We do not need to hear all these events again. We
16 just are trying to understand how this group of people just happened
17 according to you to come together without anyone identifying where you
18 would meet and when. Now, can you help us with that? There must have
19 been somebody who ultimately decided that it was necessary to meet and the
20 time that it was necessary to meet.
21 A. Your Honour, I understand your need to make this communication
22 come across as something that was actually under some sort of command or
23 something that was organised, but believe me - and I'm telling you this
24 under oath - those were spontaneous meetings in keeping with our real
25 needs at the time and the difficult situation that prevailed in Kosovo at
1 the time. There were daily phone calls five or ten times a day because of
2 all the problems that we were facing. It's very difficult to single out
3 now a single call to pin-point a single call saying we should meet at this
4 time or that time. But it became our established practice to meet at 7.30
5 in the evening, during the evening news. That was when we met because the
6 situation was quite exceptional. People were being killed, people were
7 being sniped at. Please, believe me, this wasn't it something that was
8 organised. The situation in Kosovo was dramatic. We met in order to try
9 to find a way to help each other. I am really doing my best to help the
10 Tribunal and I am saying the truth.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, anything you want to ask arising out of
13 MR. STAMP: No questions, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila?
15 MR. FILA: No.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Matkovic, that completes your evidence here; thank you for
18 coming to give it. You're now free to leave the room where you're
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour. Thank
22 [The witness via videolink withdrew]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, who is the next witness?
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Zoran Andjelkovic is our
25 next witness, and I think he's about to be shown into the courtroom.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Two things I can deal with while that's happening.
2 Because of the changed arrangements this afternoon, we'll sit until 4.00
3 and then break for 20 minutes. And we'll sit then for an hour until 5.40
4 and have another 20-minute break. So that will become two one-hour
5 sessions following this one.
6 The other matter is this: You have invited us to admit documents
7 from the bar table. A preliminary consideration of that application
8 indicates that quite a number of them, probably just over 50, have already
9 been admitted and we will identify these and make the position clear, but
10 there are a number of others where there is an absence of any real
11 indication of their reliability. We would invite you to make a
12 supplementary filing providing such further information as you can about
13 the source of these documents and any features indicating reliability and
14 anything else you can think of. And I'm going to give you a list of these
15 now. They're all documents which are just on plain paper with no
16 headings, signatures, or seals, they are as follows: 2D - and I won't
17 repeat 2D - 63, 204, 265, 268, 280, 281, 285, 287, 288, 289, 295, 300, and
19 If it was possible for you to do that for tomorrow, it would be
20 helpful; but we understand the load that you're carrying at this moment.
21 Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. We'll try
23 to deal with this as quickly as possible. May the deadline be set for
24 next Monday. I hope that's acceptable to the Chamber. At first sight -
25 and we shall be submitting this in writing - when looking at these
1 documents, these documents were obtained through the national committee
2 for cooperation with The Hague Tribunal and they were obtained from
3 appropriate archives. Specifically, I think these documents are
4 announcements from meetings of the federal government and the archives of
5 the federal government is where those documents came from, but I won't
6 waste any of the Chamber's time now. We shall be filing our written
7 submissions in order to explain how and from which source each of these
8 documents were obtained.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me give you just an example of the sort of
10 problem that we're facing. Some of them are drafts and they bear to be
11 the conclusions of the National Assembly, but on the -- on further reading
12 they could, in fact, be proposals from a party and perhaps they ultimately
13 became the conclusions of the National Assembly. But there are certain
14 weaknesses about the form of these documents that cause us to seek a
15 little more clarification about their exact role, and therefore their
16 authenticity as what you claim them to be.
17 So if you could give attention to that, it would be of assistance.
18 We're obviously anxious to admit from the bar table all that you wish us
19 to admit that's relevant to your case, particularly where there's no
20 objection to this taken by the Prosecution. But there are limits to how
21 much leeway there can be about documents that -- about which questions
22 might be asked. So please do what you can to assist.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we shall do just
24 that, and I hope that we'll succeed in convincing you that the documents
25 should qualify for admission by the Chamber.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Andjelkovic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
7 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be placed
8 before you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
12 Mr. Andjelkovic, you will now be examined by Mr. Fila on behalf of
13 Mr. Sainovic.
14 Mr. Fila.
15 WITNESS: ZORAN ANDJELKOVIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Fila:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. First of all, state your name, please. Tell us which state and
21 party positions you held back in 1998 and 1999, but please one step at a
22 time. First I finish my question then there's the interpretation and then
23 you go.
24 A. My name is Zoran Andjelkovic. Back in 1998 and 1999 I was a
25 member of the Main Board of the party. As for my state position, as for
1 the 24th of March, 1998, I was minister for youth and sport. As of the
2 28th of September, 1998, I was president of the Temporary Executive
3 Council. I was also in charge of a working body in Serbia's [Realtime
4 transcript read in error: "body"] government.
5 Q. Which one?
6 A. The personnel commission.
7 Q. At one point in time --
8 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] My apologies. It should be in Serbia's
9 government and not in Serbia's body.
10 Q. At one point in time you left for Kosovo; can you explain why?
11 A. I went to Kosovo following a decision of the Main Board of the
12 Socialist Party of Serbia at a meeting that was held on the 10th of June,
13 1998. The Main Board then numbered over 300 members, as it does now. In
14 most cases, presidents of municipal organisations are called so that
15 amounts to over 400 people. The Main Board reviewed the situation, the
16 overall situation, throughout Serbia.
17 Mr. Mirko Marjanovic, the prime minister contributed something
18 about the economic situation; Ms. Gajevic spoke about the activities
19 undertaken by the socialist party; and Mr. Minic spoke about the political
20 problems and security problems in Kosovo and Metohija. At the close of
21 that session the conclusion was reached that a Working Group should be set
22 up to be headed by Mr. Minic. Mr. Matkovic, vice-president of the Main
23 Board, and I as a member of the Main Board were members of that Working
25 Q. At the time, did the state bodies of Serbia and Yugoslavia start
1 strengthening their presence in Kosovo?
2 A. Indeed. That was, after all, one of the conclusions reached by
3 the Main Board. Both state and party bodies were to dispatch their people
4 down to Kosovo so that they might help stabilise the political situation.
5 I know that for sometime in the preceding period the republican
6 government, the Government of the Republic of Serbia, picked a coordinator
7 for the work of the state bodies in Kosovo and Metohija, and this was
8 Minister Andreja Milosavljevic. The federal government in its term had
9 nominated Mr. Nikola Sainovic. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs set up a
10 headquarters in Pristina, and other ministries, too, had the
11 responsibility of sending their own assistants down to Kosovo and Metohija
12 to help along.
13 Q. Why, in your opinion, did the federal government dispatch Nikola
14 Sainovic of all people to Kosovo?
15 A. Mr. Sainovic was deputy prime minister and he was in charge of
16 foreign policy. Everyone in Serbia knew that the situation in Kosovo and
17 Metohija security-wise and in political terms would soon be
18 internationalised in the sense of a growing presence of international
19 players, international agents in Kosovo and Metohija.
20 Q. So your group of three arrived in Kosovo. What did you find when
21 you got there?
22 A. I must say that before this I had been to Kosovo twice. I was
23 there for the signing of the education agreement, which was signed by
24 Mr. Agani, and I was there to talk to the dean and rectors of the Pristina
25 University. These were talks surrounding the conclusion of that
1 agreement, and then sometime late in June we were off as the Working Group
2 I think on or about the 25th. We went there to attend a meeting of the
3 provincial board. The situation was extremely serious. All the main
4 roads, all the principal roads, in Kosovo and Metohija were blocked.
5 Several dozens of people had been kidnapped by this time. Belacevac,
6 which is an open-cast mine, which provides -- which provides energy for
7 some other factories, was blocked and many of the Serb villages were under
8 permanent attacks.
9 Q. So your group of three, when you arrived there, what did each of
10 you do, briefly, please?
11 A. We were located in the provincial board. Mr. Minic was in charge
12 of political talks with the provincial leaders. Mr. Matkovic was --
13 happened to be the manager of Sartid was touring Kosovo's companies,
14 trying to keep production up and running and to kick-start production in
15 some places in factories that had ceased to operate. I toured various
16 areas in Kosovo and Metohija in a bid to talk to everyone there and in a
17 bid to convince them not to leave their areas in order to prevent an
18 exodus. I worked with Mr. Milosavljevic on humanitarian issues, and we
19 were doing everything in our power to bring the internally displaced back
20 to their homes to help them re-build their homes. I was also constantly
21 working on the agreement and the implementation of the agreement.
22 Q. What about Mr. Sainovic, he was there on behalf of the federal
23 government --
24 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, page 30, line 2, the
25 witness said that he was working on the education agreement and the
1 implementation of the education agreement.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
3 Mr. Fila.
4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Sainovic was there on behalf of the federal government, as you
6 said. Was he subordinated to you? Was he your superior in any way, I
7 mean subordinated or superior to the group of three.
8 A. Neither subordinated nor superior nor was Andreja Milosavljevic in
9 his capacity as minister nor were all the assistant ministers who were
10 there subordinated or superior to us; we were all doing our jobs.
11 Q. Throughout the time you spent in Kosovo as a member of the Working
12 Group, were meetings held of various state bodies working in Kosovo and
13 Metohija, meetings that the Working Group attended, that all of its three
14 members attended?
15 A. Our political activity consisted of holding meetings. Needless to
16 say, we would meet mayors, municipality presidents, representatives of
17 state bodies, but those were meetings where information was exchanged
18 because without exchanging information, while one couldn't just go to a
19 specific area, for example, see the citizens of Belacevac and promise them
20 that the state would do something about the kidnapping that the state
21 would in due course be taking certain measures, just by way of an example.
22 Q. How often did you have these meetings?
23 A. Depends on which particular meetings you have in mind.
24 Q. With the state bodies, with the police and the military present.
1 A. Oh, the state bodies, the military and the police, well, in late
2 July, August, and September we held meetings quite often and there were
3 several meetings in October, too.
4 Q. What about before then?
5 A. We met several times or saw each other several times or spoke to
6 each other several times.
7 Q. All right. Those meetings beginning in late July and going on
8 throughout August and September, as you claim, did you hear anyone refer
9 to those meetings as meetings of the Joint Command for Kosovo and
11 A. I do have to be completely sincere because I took an oath. I
12 never heard of these meetings being described as meetings of some sort of
13 Joint Command. The first time I laid eyes on any reference like that was
14 when I spoke to Mr. Curtis on the 8th of February, 2004. During that
15 interview I heard various terms being used while I was in Kosovo and
16 Metohija, staff, joint staff, corps command, IKM, 3A IKM, PRK Djakovica,
17 but these were terms that meant nothing to me. For example, in late
18 September and October I heard a term ZK for KiM being used, but these
19 terms meant nothing to me but I wasn't exactly wondering at the time. I
20 didn't believe that this had anything to do with us.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Page 31, line 24, the witness said
23 in "September," whereas the transcript reflects November.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Fila, I don't speak English but
1 I suppose there's another error here. I said IKM 3A then followed by a
2 comma and then IKM --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness and
4 counsel please be asked to not speak at the same time. Thank you.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got that message, Mr. Fila, have you, that
6 there's a cross-over between you and that's resulted in us not getting the
7 clarification that the witness sought to give.
8 Please say that again, Mr. Andjelkovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour. I
10 don't speak English myself, but of course it's easy to see these
11 abbreviations, isn't it. It's right there. It's coming off the screen
12 now. It's IKM, 3A IKM, and then a comma and then IKM Berka Djakovica.
13 Not Berka, Prka, P-r-k-a -- P-r-k.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can we continue with these meetings. Were the same persons always
16 present at these meetings or --
17 A. No, my apologies. No, not the same persons. There were always
18 those who were absent that were present and some people came over from
19 Belgrade, they liked taking their coffee at 7.30 in the evening so the
20 persons present at those meeting were almost never the same.
21 Q. Why, when, and by whose decision was the Temporary Executive
22 Council in Kosovo set up and what were your responsibilities?
23 A. The Temporary Executive Council was set up by a decision of
24 Serbia's Assembly on the 28th of September, 1998. Serbia's Assembly, as
25 item number 1 on its agenda, adopted a report on the events in Kosovo and
1 Metohija and appropriate conclusions. Item 2 on the agenda comprised a
2 decision to set up a Temporary Executive Council. Item 3 contained a
3 decision to appoint a minister of Serbia's government as president of the
4 Temporary Executive Council, Zoran Andjelkovic. And then item 4 was he
5 was within a seven-day period to appoint members to that body.
6 The Temporary Executive Council, first and foremost, had the
7 following tasks: Firstly, to show Serbia's good-will to reach a political
8 agreement as soon as possible, to have an election as soon as possible,
9 and to constitute appropriate authorities, an Assembly, and some sort of
10 Executive Council, therefore. As for the jurisdiction of the Executive
11 Council, this would be detailed in the agreement and it would henceforth
12 have the jurisdiction agreed upon in that agreement. For this reason this
13 Executive Council, above all, had a social and humanitarian aspect.
14 Q. [No interpretation].
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the question.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you repeat that question.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did you appoint members to the Temporary Executive Council?
19 A. Yes. On the 3rd of October, a week later, I appointed at the
20 first founding meeting members of the Temporary Executive Council. There
21 were a total of 16, five of them Serbs and 11 of them non-Serbs.
22 Q. My last question before the break, sir, did Nikola Sainovic have
23 anything to do with the Temporary Executive Council?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've just looked at the
2 clock. This might be the right time for our break, and I've just finished
3 with this particular subject.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
5 Mr. Andjelkovic, we need to have a break at this stage, that will
6 be for 20 minutes. Could you please leave the courtroom with the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 4.20.
9 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
13 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Let us now move on to another topic, Mr. Andjelkovic. The
15 term "local security" has been mentioned here, so we would like to hear
16 from you what that means.
17 A. Local security is an attempt through this particular activity to
18 restore the confidence of the Albanian national community and to ensure in
19 the first stage in Albanian villages that individuals and groups in
20 communication with the leadership of the municipality and its local
21 parties of self-government would be responsible for humanitarian issues,
22 for humanitarian aid, for supplies for the population with humanitarian
23 aid, and organised supplies and distribution that was on a commercial
24 basis and also through the republic headquarters for the supply of basic
25 foodstuffs, which were running short. Their task also was to thereby
1 ensure conditions in which there would be no need for the state police to
2 enter such Albanian villages unless there were any serious conflicts.
3 Q. You mentioned Albanian villages. Was this envisaged just for
4 Albanian villages?
5 A. No. This was one stage, or rather, the first step, but the next
6 step would be in all settlements and villages in mixed villages. There
7 was a major effort for the village of Kijevo, which was inhabited by both
8 Albanians, Romanis, and Serbs, and we endeavoured through political means
9 to set up such a local security in that village. And we discussed this
10 with the local leadership of the municipality of Klina. Unfortunately ...
11 Q. Was there resistance to the formation of such local security; and
12 if so, from where did it come?
13 A. Unfortunately, yes, and there was a great deal of resistance in
14 fact, and this is obvious since this activity did not succeed, both by
15 Albanian extremists and Serb nationalists; obviously they shared a common
17 Q. And when did you give up those efforts?
18 A. We worked on it politically for as long as we were there, but in
19 actual fact, by October already there was -- it was evident that nothing
20 would come of it.
21 Q. Did Mr. Sainovic have anything to do with local security in any
23 A. Mr. Sainovic did not. This was up to the municipalities, the
24 presidents of municipalities, and the local government. Politically he
25 supported it, as we did from the Working Group, as well as the other
1 people who were there and who wanted to achieve some sort of rapprochement
2 among the ethnic communities.
3 Q. Mentioning Mr. Sainovic, do you know what his work was in Kosovo
4 and Metohija in 1998?
5 A. Mr. Sainovic was the deputy prime minister in charge of
6 international cooperation, and I think that up until the arrival of the
7 OSCE delegation he had dozens of meetings with Mr. Hill, I think, and
8 we -- when we contacted representatives of the international community we
9 would always consult Mr. Sainovic. And after the OSCE mission came to
10 Kosovo then the organisation was changed, or rather, we acquired different
11 roles. Ten days prior to that I had become president of the Temporary
12 Executive Council, the federal government had formed a commission for
13 cooperation with the OSCE, which consisted of representatives of both
14 republican and federal bodies, and he continued working in that area so
15 that we had less occasion to act in that field.
16 Q. And what position did he hold?
17 A. He was president of the commission for cooperation with the OSCE
18 on behalf of the -- it was a commission of the federal government.
19 Q. As you became the president of the Temporary Executive Council and
20 acted as such in Kosovo from then on, what was the position of the
21 government of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Republic of
22 Serbia towards the OSCE mission?
23 A. I'm deeply convinced that the position and aim of all competent
24 state bodies, and especially those of us who were down there in Kosovo,
25 that this was a good idea, that this was asserting the policy of Serbia
1 and Yugoslavia and that it was useful for dealing with the problems in
2 Kosovo and Metohija and that this would speed up the finding of a final
3 political solution in Kosovo and Metohija. The first contact I had with
4 representatives of the OSCE resulted in the decision that we should make a
5 population census and organise elections within a period of nine months
6 and set up bodies, because the expectation was that in those nine months a
7 political settlement would be achieved and on that basis organs set up and
8 especially on the basis of the Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement.
9 Q. Do you know how it came about that Nikola Sainovic was included in
10 our delegation for the negotiations in Rambouillet?
11 A. One evening Ms. Gajevic, the secretary of our party, called me up
12 and said that the delegation for Rambouillet should consist also of
13 representatives of ethnic communities who were members of the Temporary
14 Executive Council. I saw the composition of that delegation and I thought
15 that it should be strengthened. I proposed several names, including the
16 president of the republic, Mr. Milosevic, and Mr. Sainovic, in view of the
17 fact that he was the vice-president for international cooperation. And it
18 seemed logical to me that Mr. Hill would be in Rambouillet, with whom
19 Mr. Sainovic had had several talks.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about Nikola Sainovic's
21 activities after the war broke out, I mean activities in Kosovo and
23 A. I saw Mr. Sainovic after the war started several times in Kosovo.
24 On the 28th of March we saw each other at the opening of the reconstructed
25 student hostel at Pristina University and in April I saw him several
1 times. He came to see me before or after his talks with Mr. Rugova, and I
2 know that on one occasion he asked me for the Executive Council to assist
3 in humanitarian terms Rugova's family. I think there were 34 people in
4 the house that Boris [as interpreted] Rugova was living in, and I assigned
5 the secretary of the Temporary Executive Council to provide everything
6 ranging from pampers, diapers, flour, sugar, and everything else to be
7 taken to Mr. Rugova's home.
8 Q. Are you aware of Sainovic's visit to Pristina in the beginning of
9 July 1999?
10 A. As far as I can remember, that was when the talks had already
11 started between Ahtissari and Milosevic and I know that Mr. Sainovic did
12 come to Pristina.
13 MR. STAMP: [Previous translation continues]... what is intended,
14 I'm not sure, on line 14.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll find out.
16 Please continue for the moment, Mr. Fila.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could I make a correction. I'm talking
18 about June 1999. I asked about June, not July.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know anything about this Joint Command that I asked you
22 about relating to 1998? Do you know whether there was a Joint Command for
23 Kosovo during the war in 1999, of which you were a member and Nikola
24 Sainovic the commander?
25 A. Quite certainly I guarantee that this was not possible to have
1 such a body with civilians in it. I saw representatives of the army for
2 the last time before the beginning of the bombing and towards the end,
3 when the Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement was about to be signed. They left
4 Pristina, so we couldn't see each other or hear each other. So when you
5 asked me whether there were commands, I really don't know. But any
6 command of which civilians were a part - and that means myself and Nikola
7 Sainovic - certainly not.
8 Q. Do you remember attending a meeting held on the 1st of June, 1999,
9 in the cellar, in the basement, of the Grand Hotel?
10 A. Mr. Sainovic, probably it was on the 1st of June but around that
11 time, came to see me in the Executive Council. We had a cup of coffee,
12 and like any good host I offered to host lunch or dinner because it was
13 quite late, and Mr. Sainovic said that we had been invited to the Grand
14 Hotel at -- by representatives of the army and that they would host a
15 dinner. So we went to this basement, which is about two levels below the
16 lobby level. Sometimes I think not billiards -- bowling, there was a
17 bowling alley there. In the middle of the table there was some PCs. I
18 gather that this was an information centre because that was logical that
19 this was the media centre for communication with the press. I think that
20 General Vasiljevic was present and some other generals whom I don't know
21 probably from the Supreme Command or from the 3rd Army, whatever they're
22 called. And each of the persons presented what they knew about what was
23 going on in the field. Mr. Sainovic spoke about the talks in Belgrade
24 between Ahtissari, Chernomyrdin and Milosevic. Representatives of the
25 army spoke of attacks on the border with Albania and the daily raids that
1 were taking place centimetre by centimetre in that area, and we had dinner
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Andjelkovic, was this a meeting of the Joint
4 Command? Did anyone report to Sainovic or brief him? Did Sainovic issue
5 any orders, instructions, or the like at that meeting?
6 A. This was an exchange of information meeting for -- those of us who
7 were in Pristina on a longer basis, we wanted to know how the talks and
8 negotiations in Belgrade were developing and when this would end, and of
9 course Mr. Sainovic was interested as to what was going on on the ground.
10 Therefore, there was no briefing of anyone or reporting to anyone, but
11 there was an exchange of information. This under any circumstances could
12 not have been a command, a Joint Command. We just came there.
13 Q. In line 17 the word "as guests" was left out, we just came there
14 as guests.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
17 Q. We heard from a witness when you and Mr. Sainovic entered, those
18 who were sitting down there got up. Is that strange? Is it strange when
19 the vice-president of the federal government walks in for the other people
20 to get up?
21 A. I really didn't understand your question. I think this is
22 customary. When somebody comes to visit you at home, even when he is not
23 the vice-premier, when somebody comes to your office, it's only logical
24 for you to get up and greet him even if he doesn't have any high-ranking
25 position, it is a normal good custom in Serbia, and if people didn't stand
1 up, that would be considered quite shameful. It would mean that the
2 person was not welcome.
3 Q. According to our customs, would it be insulting for people to keep
4 their sheets?
5 A. Well, I said ashamed, shame, and insulting is more or less the
6 same. This is simply customary. I was vice-president of the Assembly,
7 and even when the president of the municipality comes to see you, you get
8 up, even when he's of a lower rank than you are. This is quite normal.
9 Q. Just in one sentence, as you spent a certain amount of time in
10 Kosovo with Sainovic as of 1998, would you tell us what his positions were
11 regarding a settlement for Kosovo and Metohija, what kind of a person he
13 A. Mr. Sainovic is an extremely hard-working man. He can work for 15
14 hours a day. He comes from a mining environment, and they are mostly
15 multi-ethnic and he knows what it means to live in a multi-ethnic
16 environment. And whenever I spoke to him he was sincere in seeking to
17 achieve peace and tolerance in Kosovo and Metohija. This is something I'm
18 quite certain of, and he was always worried and concerned and disturbed
19 about anything -- any reports that were negative about developments in
20 Kosovo and Metohija --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could there be a pause, please.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, you're not pausing between the answer and
23 your question. Can you start that question again.
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] My last question.
25 Q. Mr. Andjelkovic, did representatives of the Tribunal come to see
1 you; and if they did, why and when and what did you do?
2 A. I had two encounters with representatives of the Tribunal; one was
3 in November 2003, it was very brief, 10 or 15 minutes only, because I
4 asked them to have this meeting in 2004 because there was a party congress
5 being prepared, the Socialist Party of Serbia, and to be quite sincere, we
6 were working on certain reforms. And as president of the Main Board, I
7 was ready to talk to them but I asked them if we could have this interview
8 in 2004.
9 Mr. Curtis and Ms. Marina and another lady came to see me, and we
10 talked on the 7th and 8th of February, 2004. We agreed on several points
11 at the very beginning; one is that I wanted to help in establishing the
12 truth here in The Hague Tribunal and that is why I wanted to talk to
13 them. At their request to be a witness of the Prosecution against
14 Slobodan Milosevic. I said I really couldn't do that because I was the
15 secretary-general of the Socialist Party of Serbia, of which Milosevic was
16 still nominally the president. That if the Trial Chamber decided I would
17 be ready to come, that this was simply an interview but I did not wish to
18 make a statement because it could be used in the political campaign
19 against me.
20 Unfortunately, on the 8th, on Sunday, we spoke outside of town and
21 the national television carried a report on my conversation with
22 representatives of The Hague Tribunal. As a result, I and my family had
23 hundreds of telephone calls and threats, and on the 10th I didn't dare
24 look at the text of the notes she had made. I saw those notes for the
25 first time when I came to The Hague in English. Unfortunately I don't
1 speak English. This is a major shortcoming of mine, but what can I do?
2 The site translation I received, as in any notes done in this way, there's
3 a lack of precision and some factual errors.
4 Let me give you an example, just one. It says that I was
5 president of the youth of Yugoslavia in 1988, but that's not the problem.
6 The president was Hashim Rexhepi, a great friend of mine, a Kosovo
7 Albanian, and if he were to see this he would think that I wanted to
8 insult him and that is the least thing I had on my mind. There was,
9 anyway, a lot of imprecision and factual errors.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That would be all, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: When was it that you saw the notes in English?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two or three days ago when I arrived
14 in The Hague. Your Honour, I was never called by anyone nor were the
15 notes served on me, and my thought was: Why didn't we do that on the 10th
16 of February.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you listed as a witness for the Defence in the
18 Milosevic trial?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was not listed as a Defence
20 witness for Mr. Milosevic, and that was why a campaign was launched
21 against me by certain members of the Socialist Party.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Any Defence counsel wish to cross-examine?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, I said at the
25 time that I did not wish to be an OTP witness or a Defence witness, but
1 should the Chamber rule on the matter they should simply call my number
2 and I would be there. That is exactly what I told The Hague Prosecutors
3 at the time.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Bakrac.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I hope that
7 I'll be very brief.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Andjelkovic, I'm Mihajlo
10 Bakrac and I'm here on behalf of General Lazarevic.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. I'll ask you two or three questions briefly. First of all, I do
13 have to ask you this. Can you please look at an exhibit presented by a
14 Defence team, it's about to come up on the screen in front of you. This
15 is an e-court exhibit 5D412.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can that please be brought up on our
17 screens. If we could please zoom in slightly.
18 Q. Mr. Andjelkovic, and I'll be asking you now -- first of all, can
19 you see the document?
20 A. Yes, I can, I've just put on my glasses.
21 Q. Please have a look. It's not a long document. Read it for
22 yourself and then I'll be asking you two or three questions about it.
23 Have you read it, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. First of all, do you recognise this document?
1 A. Yes. Mr. Markovic showed me this document; he was in charge of
2 that particular sector in the Executive Council.
3 Q. When you say that Mr. Markovic showed you this document and he was
4 in charge of that sector, would I be right in stating that this was shown
5 to you in May 1999?
6 A. Yes, of course, we did speak about that, didn't we, and we took
7 certain measures. I know for a fact -- may I continue?
8 Q. Well, just to be as quick as possible, I'll ask you questions and
9 I think that that might hurry us along a little. This is information from
10 the commander of the Pristina Corps, General Vladimir Lazarevic, and he
11 requests here that the Temporary Executive Council take urgent action in
12 the town of Glogovac to feed the population, provide health care for the
13 population. Is that true, sir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Following this letter, did you as the Temporary Executive Council
16 do anything about that?
17 A. Yes, and not just in this particular town. There are video
18 records and clips showing that. We were involved in providing
19 humanitarian aid to the population, specifically in Glogovac the Working
20 Group was headed by Mr. Faik Jashari, the Working Group delivering
21 humanitarian aid to the town. I think he was with Ms. Abderisa, with
22 Vule Andric and some other people and they personally delivered it. I saw
23 the tape about villages around Glogovac to which they delivered
24 humanitarian aid and I saw them carry medical supplies, too. This is
25 pursuant to an agreement that we had to take measures to do whatever
1 could. However, Mr. Bakrac, I do have to say, that throughout the war we
2 had a huge shortage of foodstuffs and humanitarian aid supplies and this
3 is something that we always underlined.
4 Q. Mr. Andjelkovic, thank you. I have just another question for
5 you. Be so kind, please, as far as I know you were familiar with the
6 situation in Kosovo and were at the time. The town of Glogovac, what is
7 the ethnic make-up of the town of Glogovac?
8 A. As far as I remember, there were one or two Serb families.
9 Everybody else was Albanian.
10 Q. You will agree with me, therefore, that the aid was requested and
11 received by the Albanian population?
12 A. Yes, of course. Most of the aid during the NATO air-strikes
13 provided by the Temporary Executive Council and our commission for
14 humanitarian aid was meant for the Albanian population.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Andjelkovic.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I do have a few questions.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Andjelkovic, my name is Dan Ivetic and I am
23 the attorney for Sreten Lukic.
24 A. Good afternoon to you.
25 Q. I have a few questions for you to clarify some things so I beg
1 your indulgence. First of all, in conducting your duties at the Temporary
2 Executive Council for Kosovo and Metohija, do you recall any instances in
3 1998 where you interacted with foreign diplomats of any NATO countries
4 such as my own, the United States of America, wherein the diplomats
5 personally expressed to you their attitude or reaction towards the
6 killings, kidnappings, and other terrorist acts undertaken by the KLA?
7 A. Well, in actual fact, from October to the very end of 1998, I had
8 the best part of those talks until the beginning of the NATO air-strikes.
9 I think the 20th -- on the 21st of March, 1999, there was a meeting with
10 Mr. Vollebaek. As for 1998, yes, of course, I shared whatever information
11 I had about the number of those killed and those kidnapped, about which
12 roads were blocked and where. The Pristina-Pec road, specifically the
13 Pec-Kosovska Mitrovica road, the Prizren road through Stimlje, Pristina
15 There was this one talk that I had, as you suggested, with
16 representatives of the US. There was a lady - and I can't remember her
17 name - she is a lady from the US congress. I'm sure that there is a note
18 about that meeting in the archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
19 because representatives of that ministry were always there for each and
20 every one of the talks that I held. They would report back on any of my
21 meetings. They spied on me in a manner of speaking as people say where I
22 come from and they would write it all up. I think her name was
23 Ms. Rosenberg she was from the US congress.
24 I put forward my position. So many people had been killed, so
25 many terror acts had been committed, so many people had been kidnapped.
1 We were still unaware of the fate of so many people, and she said,
2 "Mr. Andjelkovic, your information is probably accurate," and I said
3 "Well, this is the information I got, I can't tell." And she said, "Now,
4 I don't doubt the authenticity of your information but I do wish to tell
5 you one thing. You view the Kosovo Liberation Army as a terrorist
6 organisation; my country believes that they are freedom fighters. And we
7 have every sympathy for freedom fighters anywhere."
8 I told Mr. Sainovic about this once when we talked and I think he
9 spoke to Mr. Ivanovic [as interpreted], and I think later as a result a
10 protest note was sent to the US embassy.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 48, line 9, this
13 is Mr. Jovanovic, not Mr. Ivanovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zivadin Jovanovic, the minister of
15 foreign affairs.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. I'm sorry, sir, I'm just waiting for the transcript to catch up
19 with us. Now, if we can turn to the period of the NATO bombing campaign
20 in 1999 which you mentioned, and I believe that you were in Pristina much
21 of this time. Do you recall the bombing of the MUP building in Pristina
22 where the Pristina SUP and the MUP staff were based and what date that
23 occurred on?
24 A. Yes. During the war I would spend one, two, or three days a week
25 in Pristina. One shouldn't forget the fact that I was at the same time
1 the federal [as interpreted] minister for youth and sport. On the day
2 when the MUP building was bombed -- I remember that day very clearly.
3 This was the 28th of March, if I remember, that was when we opened the
4 student hostel. Secondly, I remember this because my window, my hotel
5 window, affords a view of the MUP building, the distance being no more
6 than 1 or 200 metres and I saw this happen.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Petrovic.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, page 49,
9 line 1, it reads he was federal minister, but he wasn't and he didn't say
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the republican minister for
12 youth and sport.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. And, sir, were you physically present to see the aftermath of the
17 NATO attack on the MUP building?
18 A. Yes. There was a man named Goran at the hotel. We walked over to
19 the MUP building, not because of the building itself but it was our
20 impression that the health station which was just next to the MUP building
21 had been struck, too. It did catch fire because the building adjacent to
22 it, the MUP building, had been targeted. We arrived there and we realised
23 that the fire brigade men were trying to put out the fire in the MUP
24 building fire was ablaze. I thought this was an insane thing to do, but
25 there is a corridor between the buildings leading to another building that
1 is part of a residential block and I tried to convince them to smash the
2 window-panes along that corridor and throw the water inside to keep the
3 fire from spreading to the adjacent building. I failed, obviously, I
4 thought that I knew best, but we all think just that sometimes whereas
5 those in charge of a certain job are best placed to know. So this man
6 named Goran and I walked over to that other building across the way.
7 Mr. Stojanovic [as interpreted] appeared. He asked me where I was headed
8 and I told him what I was trying to do and then he came with me and
9 Stevanovic and then we used the fire extinguishers to push the fire back
10 in this corridor and then we smashed the glass panes. We managed to stop
11 the fire from spreading. We saw a janitor there and Goran Stojanovic
12 [as interpreted] when -- as we passed him said this man doesn't even know
13 what is going on. He was an Albanian, not that it counts. On our way
14 back we asked him what happened here and he said, well, something was just
15 smashed and the problem being behind that building --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, if there is some detail you require,
17 can you direct the witness to it so that we can --
18 MR. IVETIC: The efforts to stop the spread is what I wanted. I'm
19 trying to actually correct the transcript, if I may. Page 50, line 6,
20 first of all it says Mr. Stojanovic appeared; I believe the witness said
21 Mr. Stevanovic appeared. And then later on at line 10 of the same page we
22 saw a janitor there and Goran Stojanovic. Goran Stojanovic; I think the
23 witness said General Stevanovic.
24 Q. And just to clarify, we're talking about General Obrad Stevanovic;
25 is that correct, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Now -- now, if we can move to another event that occurred around
5 the same time, the NATO bombing of the PTT, the telephone, telegraph and
6 post building in Pristina. Can you describe any personal knowledge that
7 you have of that event as, for instance, when did it occur and any
8 observations that you made of that occurrence?
9 A. If I'm not mistaken I think this was on the 7th of April. I was
10 in an office in the Temporary Executive Council when the strike occurred.
11 The refinery first, or rather, a petrol storage facility owned by INA,
12 which is about 7 or 8 kilometres out of Pristina. I called --
13 Q. I'm trying to shorten it. I'd like to keep you here as short as
14 possible. I'd like to direct your attention specifically to the PTT
15 building. Were you present physically at the scene for the aftermath of
16 that -- of that strike by the NATO bombs?
17 A. Yes, I was just trying to say that. First we went to Devet
18 Jugovica and then Pristina was bombed and then Mr. Markovic and I drove
19 back to the centre of Pristina and we spent the whole night trying to
20 rescue those people, specifically a Turkish family, we rescued an elderly
21 lady and two children; the rest of them didn't make it, unfortunately.
22 Mr. Andric's mother-in-law came to grieve. He was a member of the
23 Temporary Executive Council on 27th of March he was at a check-point with
24 General Jankovic trying to provide security for the people passing through
25 and trying to convince them to go back to Kosovo.
1 Q. And you mentioned the efforts to try and rescue those people. Am
2 I correct among the casualties, in addition to the Turkish family you
3 talked of, they were other ethnic Albanians that were the casualties of
4 this NATO attack?
5 A. Well, was it a Turkish family, an Albanian family, some say
6 Turkish, some say Albanian. Mr. Salin Goxhufi [phoen], for example, a
7 member of the Executive Council, believed them to be Albanians but that
8 didn't matter because there were a great number of casualties, Serbs,
9 Albanians, and Turks in that particular street because this is the old
10 town of Pristina, the old core of Pristina town. There were Serbs living
11 there, Albanians, Turks, and they had been there for ages.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: There's an answer there that's not very clear,
13 Mr. Ivetic. Mr. -- It's at line 19, Mr. Andric's mother-in-law came to
14 grieve. He was a member of the Temporary Executive Council on 27th
16 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What is this about?
18 MR. IVETIC: I believe the witness said that she perished in the
19 attack, but we can ask him to clarify it since I did not catch this
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Where does the check-point fit in? Perhaps you can
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
24 Q. Sir, could you please, since the transcript did not accurately
25 reflect your answer, could you please tell us again what happened to your
1 colleague Mr. Andric's mother-in-law and where he was at the time of the
2 NATO strike on the PTT building in Pristina.
3 A. On the 27th or the 28th, as president of the Executive Council I
4 had set up a Working Group headed by Mr. Andric, the secretary for health
5 in the province, Professor Moracic, president of the Red Cross of Kosovo
6 and Metohija was involved, too, and a number of other people and then on
7 27 and 28th they were at the Djeneral Jankovic check-point trying to help
8 the people who were there and convince them to return. His mother-in-law
9 came to grieve that evening right there. I'm not sure if that's
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to be clear, though, she came to grieve at the
12 Djeneral Jankovic check-point?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Did she come to grieve at the Djeneral --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. In the air-strike, the
16 centre of Pristina.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's move on, Mr. --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While he was at the Djeneral
19 Jankovic check-point.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. We're waiting for the transcript again. Thank you. Now, during
22 the time-period following these two bombings by NATO in the centre of
23 Pristina, what were your personal observations of the effects these two
24 bombings had on the civilian population of Pristina of all ethnicities?
25 A. I would say the same thing as any citizen of Pristina.
1 Destruction, chaos, a large number of people feeling unsafe, fear,
2 departures. Unfortunately, this is the usual consequence of any sort of
3 destruction on that scale and that sort of panic spreading.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the NATO bombing Pristina was
5 hit just about every night in some form or another by NATO armaments?
6 A. Well, to the extent that I could see, Pristina and its
7 surroundings were targeted every night. Unfortunately, whenever I
8 returned to Belgrade it was the same thing. My wife told me best just go
9 back and stay right there. Every time I was back in Belgrade there would
10 be a major large-scale air-strike.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the
13 answer because counsel overlapped.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: If you need any clarification of that last answer,
15 Mr. Ivetic, the interpreter believes it's not all translated.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 MR. IVETIC: Well, my recollection of the B/C/S comports with
18 what's on the English. I think it's a completed thought and I think we
19 get the gist of the witness's answer to that.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. So, sir, I'd like to move on to another event that I believe you
23 have some personal knowledge on relating to -- do you recall the NATO
24 bombing of a civilian bus I believe also in April of 1999 on its way to
1 A. I don't remember if this occurred in April. It might have been in
2 May, the 1st of May, perhaps. I think I stayed until the 1st of May.
3 This was usually the time I went back to Belgrade. I had breakfast with
4 the Temporary Executive Council, and after the air-strikes, after the
5 bombing, all of the Executive Council were there, including me. This
6 caused a huge number of casualties. This was a horrendous incident
7 leaving 70 civilians killed. On this bus moving from Pristina to Podujevo
8 there was Serbs and Albanians alike on that bus, I'm certain.
9 Unfortunately, this image will remain etched in my memory forever. It's
10 difficult to describe what we saw. There were bits of bodies, body parts
11 lying all over the place, children killed, bodies ablaze, that sort of
12 thing, a horrendous image.
13 Q. And, sir, am I correct that when you arrived at the scene you
14 found that the victims of the strike were being rendered first aid and
15 assistance by members of the police, including high-ranking police
16 officials such as General Stevanovic, who was present?
17 A. Yes. When I came I saw General Stevanovic, and of course the
18 police were there. The first aid people were there from Pristina.
19 Everything was being done that was within their power, and they were
20 trying to take people to hospital so that those who could still be helped
21 were helped.
22 Q. Just a few more questions and I'd like to move on to the work of
23 the Temporary Executive Council. Am I correct that during the NATO
24 bombing, rather than dealing or seeing any MUP generals frequently, such
25 as Generals Lukic, Djordjevic, or Stevanovic, you saw lower-ranking police
1 officers, for instance, I would direct your attention to the commission
2 that you formed on cooperation and coordination of civilian activities in
3 April of 1999, April 19th, wherein a Blagoje Pesic was the sole MUP
4 participant. Does that accurately reflect the interactions that the
5 Temporary Executive Council had with members of the MUP in the period
6 following the commencement of the bombings?
7 A. Well, it was our desire to do everything within our power amid
8 this destruction and war to prevent looting, all those of us whose job it
9 was to do so. Unfortunately, there is looting in every war. There was a
10 commission that was set up to do just that, needless to say, and also took
11 care of the supplies. I know that there was a humanitarian aid mission
12 that arrived from Greece. I think it was brought by the Greek ambassador
13 and there was a shipment of olives --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you try to answer the question, please, which
15 is about your contacts with MUP personnel during the war. Could you try
16 to help us with that. Because it's very distracting when you go on to
17 other things that don't have anything to do with the question.
18 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps I could ask a more direct question, Your
19 Honour, and might help us if I can catch up with the transcript.
20 Q. Sir -- I apologise, I've been told that the B/C/S translation also
21 is needing time to catch up with us, so that's why I paused again.
22 Sir, if I can be more concrete, apart from the meeting of the
23 Temporary Executive Council of March 24th, 1999, wherein Generals Lukic
24 and Obrad Stevanovic were present, am I correct that for the duration of
25 the war you rarely saw or dealt with generals in the MUP in your official
1 capacity at the Temporary Executive Council?
2 A. On the 24th of March there was a meeting after the state of
3 emergency had been declared and following the meeting of the Serbian
4 National Assembly. When the meeting was scheduled and having discussed
5 this with members of the Temporary Executive Council, they said that
6 representatives of the security forces should be called to the meeting so
7 that they might explain and say what the predictions were, if there would
8 be bombing or not, which is precisely what an organ like that should do in
9 a state of war. In addition to that at all the lower levels about
10 humanitarian aid, about cooperation, I don't think I saw any of them. I
11 may have spoken on the phone to General Lukic twice, perhaps three times,
12 and I only saw him sometime towards the end of the war but I never saw any
13 military men at all.
14 Q. Okay. I think -- okay.
15 Thank you very much for your testimony today, Mr. Andjelkovic. I
16 apologise for any confusion or difficulties posed by my questioning.
17 MR. IVETIC: I think I've got probably questions that I wanted to
18 get finished, Your Honours, so I would pass the witness I guess to the
19 other side.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
21 You will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Mr. Stamp.
22 Mr. Stamp.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Andjelkovic.
2 A. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Stamp.
3 Q. Let's just talk about the statement that you gave or the interview
4 that you gave. That was in 2003, was it, when you were interviewed?
5 A. In 2003, in November 2003, I had a 15-minute-long interview, but
6 the proper interview was on the 7th and 8th of February, 2004, if I'm not
8 Q. It was in 2003, 7th and 8th of February, 2003, was it?
9 A. Then this other one was in 2002, maybe I got the year wrong, but I
10 know it was February, 7th and 8th of February.
11 Q. The interview in February, Mr. Curtis and Ms. Murtagh were the
13 A. Yes, yes. Marina was taking notes.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. Marina was the interpreter?
17 A. Yes, and she was also typing on the PC.
18 Q. I see. Now, you told them at the end of it all, that's on the
19 8th, that you didn't want this statement to be given to anybody by the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you -- do you recall that for many -- that over long period --
23 well, I put the question.
24 Do you recall ever receiving any phone calls from anybody at ICTY
25 asking for your permission to disclose the statement -- this statement you
1 gave to them, to the Defence in this case?
2 A. No, certainly not.
3 Q. Do you recall hearing the expression "Joint Command" being used in
4 1998 or in 1999?
5 A. I said a moment ago that during September and the few meetings we
6 had in October, I heard various military terms used and Joint Command
7 perhaps in October, IKM as well of the 3rd Army in Pristina, and
8 headquarters and commands and corps, I did hear those terms but I never
9 gave them any thought.
10 Q. I'm just asking you about Joint Command. So you say you heard
11 Joint Command being used in 1998?
12 A. In 1998 I said that I may have heard someone use the term Joint
13 Command as one of the terms that I heard being used. I don't remember
14 hearing it or using it.
15 Q. You attended --
16 MR. STAMP: I'd like the witness to be shown P1468.
17 Perhaps we could hand a hard copy of this document to the witness.
18 Q. It's a photocopy you have there of a document entitled: "Meetings
19 of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija." And -- and if you open it
20 you'll see that it records various meetings. Have you seen this document
22 A. I saw it on the 8th of February when Mr. Curtis - I don't know if
23 I pronounce it correctly - showed it to me.
24 Q. Have you seen it since then, apart from today of course?
25 A. I saw it in this way that you showed it to me and then Mr. Curtis
1 read out several of my statements.
2 Q. Okay. But the -- when Mr. Curtis showed it to you on the 8th of
3 February, was it the first time you saw it or had you seen it before that?
4 A. I saw it for the first time then and that is what I told
5 Mr. Curtis.
6 Q. Can you look at the second page of that document, please. It
7 refers to a meeting of the 22nd of June, 1998, and it lists the
8 participants, including yourself.
9 A. Yes, I see it.
10 Q. And it goes on to October 1990 -- the 20th of October, 1998, where
11 it records many meetings involving these participants. Now, do you
12 recall -- you recall attending meetings frequently in that period with
13 these persons in Kosovo?
14 A. With these and others, yes.
15 Q. Do you recall attending these meetings at the Executive Council
16 building on many evenings in Kosovo in 1998 in that same period, I'm
17 talking about July to October?
18 A. Yes, but that building was the building of the Assembly until the
19 20th of September, and then it was known as the building of the Temporary
20 Executive Council.
21 Q. Thanks.
22 A. To -- for precision sake, this building ...
23 Q. What did you call this group of people meeting?
24 A. Mr. Minic, Mr. Matkovic, and myself, we called it meetings with
25 the security forces, with the army and the police, just as we had meetings
1 with town mayors, with presidents of municipalities, meetings with general
2 managers of companies without any agenda or any form.
3 Q. Thanks. The question was really just what you called it. What
4 did the members of the security forces call it, do you know?
5 A. I thought they called it meetings with politicians or -- but
6 certainly not like this.
7 Q. No, you said -- but did you hear them referring to these meetings
8 and giving it a name?
9 A. No, I didn't hear them mention these meetings specifically, but I
10 heard some of the terms that they used.
11 Q. Who convened these meetings?
12 A. Believe me, they took place as a result of needs to communicate
13 about what was going on on the ground. We gathered during the news cast
14 and to discuss events. Also the office of the Main Board of the SPS was
15 there. This used to be the office of the president of the Assembly.
16 There was another office which used to be occupied by the president of the
17 Executive Council -- I'm sorry. So Mr. Milosavljevic was sitting above me
18 on the floor above me, and as there was no Assembly, that is where we
19 would gather.
20 Q. Very well. But when you gathered, who convened the meetings, who
21 invited you to these meetings or did you invite people to these meetings?
22 A. Any one of the members of the party, maybe Minic would say, Let's
23 go and talk to the army and the police. I didn't get any formal
24 invitation or a telephone call. We would simply gather when we finished
25 an operative task, Mr. Minic, Matkovic, and myself, to exchange views as
1 to what we had done that day and then we would go to the meeting.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you indicating that the army -- senior members
3 of the army and the police were just -- just happened to be available
4 whenever you wanted them?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not what I'm indicating.
6 I really didn't go into that. I did the tasks that I was given as a
7 member of the Working Group. I wasn't interested in who was calling who.
8 I know that Minic, who was head of the Working Group, would inform me that
9 we would be going to meet the army or the police; that was the extent of
10 what I knew.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: So did he organise the meetings?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't believe that he did.
13 He never said explicitly that he was organising meetings. This was never
14 discussed. Sometimes the need arose for us to meet. Sometimes he would
15 say, Let's go and see the mayor. There was no particular pattern or form
16 to it as in someone calling someone else. It was based on what the
17 situation required. That's how we would meet.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: This passage started with you saying that: "Any
19 one of the members of the party, maybe Minic, would say, Let's go and talk
20 to the army and the police ... "
21 And it just sounds such a casual arrangement for non-arrangement,
22 for that matter, and gives the impression that senior military figures
23 would be gathering somewhere that you would know they were at and you'd
24 just be able to pop in and see them. Now, I'm having difficulty with that
25 idea, I have to emphasise to you. So if you can help us, please do.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I never said any one of
2 the members of the party; I said the three of us, Minic, Matkovic, and I,
3 who were members of the Working Group. We were appointed and dispatched
4 down there to help stabilise the political situation in Kosovo above all.
5 Sometimes it was necessary if we were to find out that those from Pec
6 would be going through Raus to Pristina for a road to be cleared so that
7 we could see them. I was spending most of my time on the ground and
8 sometimes we would meet in the afternoon to exchange opinions within the
9 Executive Council. That's how it began. I really don't know who
10 scheduled that first meeting, who called that first meeting, but we would
11 go to the Kosovo Assembly premises and meet there. I think this was
12 because none of us were eager to go to police and military premises and
13 thereby create problems for ourselves or for them by simply turning up on
14 the premises belonging to the security forces.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you keep a record of the meetings?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, certainly not. We all took
17 notes, each and every one of us, on whatever we needed. I'm quite clumsy
18 myself. I use slips of paper and I tend to misplace them or lose them.
19 All my friends are making jokes at my expense about that. Each of us,
20 whenever necessary, made notes in our own notebooks that we kept on us.
21 I'm certain that no one took minutes, formal minutes, in the sense
22 of Pera or Mika being in charge of the minutes and then the next day you
23 adopt these minutes, that sort of thing. As to whether those present took
24 notes -- well, for example, I would write down some something that I heard
25 so that I could raise further questions, but if I was to say something to
1 a municipality president, for example, I'm on my way to Orahovac to talk
2 to 50 of those whose members of family have been kidnapped and I was there
3 to tell them the police were doing something about it and sometimes when I
4 had no information at all I was on my way there to bear the brunt of the
5 fury of those people there. They would say, do you know anything about
6 them? I said, no, I know nothing. They say, well, why are you here
7 then? Well, I was better off going there trying to talk to those people
8 than no one at all turning up. They needed to be told that measures were
9 being taken and that something was being done.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: If something was happening, if there were meetings
11 that somehow or other were out with the normal state structures, it
12 wouldn't be surprising that there was no formal minute being kept. So
13 please bear in mind when you're trying to assist us that it may not be a
14 particularly surprising situation we're trying to deal with. We don't
15 know. We're just, I suppose, groping a bit in the dark at the moment
16 because there is this document before us and there's lots of people coming
17 denying the existence of the Joint Command, but then having some
18 difficulty in explaining or giving us answers to questions that we think
19 are obvious ones to ask. But the witnesses don't seem to think that. So
20 we are struggling to understand this situation, especially when the Joint
21 Command is clearly referred to in the document and the words are
22 recollected vaguely by the witnesses.
23 Now, can you help us at all about how it was you came to have what
24 appeared to be a fairly regular arrangement for meeting more or less the
25 same people to deal with what clearly was a very, very difficult
1 situation. You don't need to keep telling us how difficult it was. The
2 world knows that and we've had it clearly spelled out to us by everybody
3 here. What we would rather do is concentrate on the detail inquiry into
4 this document.
5 Now, can you help us on how this general meeting -- arrangement
6 for meetings was actually set up?
7 JUDGE CHOWHAN: I would just further argument this because the
8 type of arrangements which we are hearing appears as if it was a club of
9 friends would like to, all right, let's get together, we go out, we go to
10 this place and solve this problem, and on the other hand, you're also
11 calling the army people in it and so on and deciding things. So this
12 appears to be confusing at least myself. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never for a minute
14 challenge the fact that we would meet at about 7.30 in the evening in that
15 room. I can't quite know for sure how our first meeting materialised, but
16 the fact of the matter is we met almost every meeting until the end of
17 September. Some of those who were still around in October met and
18 exchanged opinions. This was no standardised sort of meeting. People
19 came from Belgrade, some people came, those who came to the corps or to
20 the police and then some higher-ranking officials came and that's where
21 they would go because that was a place where we would gather. Most of us
22 were outside Pristina and in a situation of crisis if you go to a cafe you
23 have a drink with anyone. The next day, the next thing you know, you're
24 under attack because there was division among the Serbs, too. The next
25 day they're asking why you had a drink with this man and not with that
1 man. So we avoided having drinks outside of these official meetings, for
2 example, with people who held some positions such as the municipality
3 president, someone from the security forces, and so on and so forth.
4 I'm telling you what I saw at the time. Even if someone said the
5 Joint Command at the time, I would have thought there must be something
6 between the police and the army, joint headquarters, joint staff, IKM,
7 IKL, 3rd Army, Pristina from Nis, but it meant nothing at all to me at the
8 time. I'm trying to understand what IKM means now, but at the time it
9 really meant nothing to me.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And what do you say it means now?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] IKM, forward command post of the 3rd
12 Army in Pristina, and the headquarters of the 3rd Army is in Nis.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Is this a convenient place to interrupt, Mr. Stamp?
15 MR. STAMP: Yes, it is.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Andjelkovic, we need to break now for 20
17 minutes, so could you please again leave the courtroom with the usher.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at 6.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, there's one thing that needs to be
23 corrected in the transcript. I don't know if we could do that while we're
24 waiting for the witness to save time or I can perhaps say what I heard and
25 then have you confirm with the witness. At page 66, line 7, the acronym
1 IKM is translated as being first and foremost of the 3rd army in
2 Pristina. Listening to the live feed, as I was, I heard him say the term
3 in Serbian, which to me means forward command post, but we can verify that
4 with the witness if need be. It's just I think--
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: That is what I heard on the --
7 MR. IVETIC: Okay. I wasn't sure if it came through on the
8 translation or not.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And it's one of these I'm sure will be corrected
10 once it's reviewed overnight.
11 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, it's important and therefore you have
13 nothing to apologise for.
14 Mr. Stamp.
15 MR. STAMP: Your Honours, I think -- well, it has come to my
16 attention that I am heading to go over time if we abide by the 40 minutes
17 that Mr. Fila spent. He had indicated that this examination-in-chief will
18 be four hours. Now, I don't propose to take even close to four hours, but
19 I respectfully request that I not be held to the time which Mr. Fila took
20 in chief, which I understand --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we think that you should make an efficient
22 use of the equivalent time. Indeed, we're happy that you would go on to
23 about quarter to and then we'll review the position and see how much
24 re-examination Mr. Fila has at that stage but there doesn't seem to us any
25 reason why we can't get through this witness's evidence today, and so
1 let's go.
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. You have in front of you a document entitled: "Meetings of the
4 Joint Command of Kosovo and Metohija." You said that looking at the
5 participants at the meeting on page 2, you referred to it as a meeting
6 with the Security Council -- sorry, with the members of the Security
7 Council --
8 A. With the forces of security, not council.
9 Q. Yes, thank you. Can you just quickly have a look at page 5 of
10 this document. This is page 6 in the English version and page 5 your
11 copy. Do you see where it says 20 -- meeting of the Joint Command for
12 Kosovo and Metohija, 23rd of July, 1998, 2000 to 2300 hours, all members
13 present, including Mr. Matkovic. Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Did you have a quorum -- this meeting with the security forces
16 that you regularly had, was there a quorum to this meeting or --
17 A. Your Honour, I said that there were people who would come once,
18 five times or three times. There was absolutely no one who would say
19 these people have to come and then they are the quorum. It's impossible
20 to say what the quorum would be, it has to be the quorum of something
21 and --
22 Q. Thanks --
23 A. -- The number was variable.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: The answer -- your answer I think was no. The --
25 you'll see that the persons attending are described as members, they are
1 described as members, and if this document is genuine, then somebody
2 making these notes thought there was a body of which there was a
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the two or three
5 days that I was waiting for the beginning of my testimony, I had occasion
6 to look through these documents. And I saw that those absent are usually
7 indicated as members of the Working Group of the Socialist Party of
8 Serbia, but then I saw that there was a Mr. Markovic. He came to Kosovo
9 once. He was not head of the security service. Mr. Stevanovic,
10 Mr. Djordjevic, Mr. Samardzic, commander of the 3rd Army. I told you
11 quite sincerely, people would come who were coming along their chain of
12 command, the Ministry of the Interior, or in the army and us who were
13 politicians and we would see one another in the evenings --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so one can't talk about a certain
16 number of people present.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
18 Mr. Stamp.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. In other words, and you can just tell me yes or no, you cannot
21 assist us by explaining what it means when it says "all members present,"
22 and I stress the word "members." You can't help us with that? You don't
23 know what that means?
24 A. No, impossible.
25 Q. Very well.
1 A. I cannot help.
2 Q. Can you look at page 18 of your document, please, it is page 24 in
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Mr. Andjelkovic, if you look at your document you will see there
7 are some printed numbers. Look for the number K00228429 and they are in
8 consecutive order. Have you found that?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I found it, Your Honours.
10 Q. The document records -- and if I just go back a page or two, this
11 is a meeting of the 28th of July, 1998, and you see it records you as
12 saying that 52.260 rifles have been distributed. You see that, do you see
13 that, yes or no, let's just start --
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Now --
16 A. When -- I'm reported to have said that.
17 Q. Did you say that? Did you say that at any time?
18 A. Before this meeting I see Mr. Rade Markovic. He spoke before me.
19 He's General Rade Markovic, but he wasn't a general then. I think he was
20 head of the state security for Belgrade and he was in Prizren on that
21 day. I think he may have attended once or twice only; that's what I said
22 a moment ago. As for what I said, Mr. Stamp, look at the first line, it
23 says: "Supply of the population." Could -- I can't read this properly.
24 It says: "Mr. Rade" here, so could you please put the passage with me as
25 the speaker on the screen. I don't see on the screen what Mr. Stamp is
1 asking me about. It says here "Mr. Rade" here on my screen, who wasn't a
2 general then. He was just Mr. Rade.
3 MR. STAMP: Can you go to the next page, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I comment on my statement? As
5 it's not on the screen, I have it in hard copy. May I answer the question
6 put to me, Your Honour --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, what is it we are looking at?
8 MR. STAMP: We are looking at page 24 of the English version --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
10 MR. STAMP: -- in the middle of the page.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: And is the right Serb version on the screen?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour.
13 MR. STAMP:
14 Q. If you can --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you not got these all organised to move
16 efficiently --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well, very well, you can continue and explain
19 it for us. I think that's what you are being asked -- well, no. You were
20 only asked if you had seen that reference and you have, so Mr. Stamp will
21 now ask you another question. Just wait for that.
22 MR. STAMP:
23 Q. You refer here to the distribution of 52.260 rifles. That's what
24 I'm asking you about.
25 A. In the first line I'm talking about supplying the people with
1 humanitarian aid, and in the second line I say that this question of
2 supplying the population has to be under full control of all inspections,
3 market inspection, financial police, and all the other that would control
4 supplying the population. This is because the state had organised
5 supplies for the population because what the state was providing, for
6 instance, oil --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just deal with the point.
8 MR. STAMP: Yes.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Explain the rifles. We can read what it says about
10 humanitarian aid. Just tell us about the rifles. What do you have to say
11 about that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before a session of the government I
13 asked Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic how the Ministry of the Interior is going to
14 resolve the problem of defence of non-Albanian villages who were under
15 constant attack. He told me that the Ministry of the Interior had formed
16 200 reserve police detachments with 5.000 [as interpreted] people. I
17 didn't believe it. I asked the question.
18 Everybody was laughing because everybody knew that Mr. Vlajko
19 Stojiljkovic is prone to exaggerate, that he likes to say what
20 Mr. Milosevic likes to hear rather than what is on the ground. I spoke
21 about this once more with Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic and he said, What
22 they're saying over there has nothing to do with reality. I have made a
23 decision and I have discussed that at meetings of the party and I conveyed
24 this to Mr. Curtis during the interview.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I am none the wiser about what this reference is to
1 52.260 rifles. Can you help me with that. I don't know what you're
2 saying about it.
3 Mr. Petrovic.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honour, a correction
5 which may be of assistance in understanding what the witness is saying.
6 Line 8, page 72, he mentioned 52.000 people and here it says 5.000. So
7 maybe that will clarify what he's trying to say.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So let me repeat, Your Honour: The
9 minister of the police, Mr. Vlajko Stojiljkovic, I asked while we were
10 waiting for a meeting of the government to start, I asked him,
11 Mr. Minister, how are you going to protect the villages in Kosovo who are
12 under constant attack by the KLA? And he said the Ministry of the
13 Interior had decided to set up 200 police detachments with 52.260
14 reservists. I didn't believe that.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I know that, but what's the rifles got to do
16 with this? What happened with rifles?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 52.000 reservists surely need to
18 have rifles --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- if they are a reserve police
22 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that. Did they get them?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that meeting, representatives of
24 the police from Pristina laughed at the position of Mr. Vlajko
25 Stojiljkovic. How -- whether they got them or --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes or no?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's even better, I don't know, that's
4 another simple answer you can give. Please help us with the specific
5 questions you're being asked. That has taken ages and now we'll have to
6 extend, no doubt, the time that's available for this cross-examination
7 because you're not listening to the instructions you're being given. Now,
9 Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP:
11 Q. You were involved -- yes, yes. You were involved -- or the TEC at
12 some point in time was involved in creating local village defence forces?
13 A. Not took part in the formation, but suggested and proposed that
14 local security be formed. This is not the same as security. This has to
15 do with the municipalities and not with the Ministry of the Interior.
16 Q. Could you have a look at page 39 of that document, and in English
17 it's 49. If you look for the page with K0228450.
18 A. [In English] Thank you.
19 Q. That's a meeting you will see there on the 12th of August, 1998.
20 If you could look to where it says that Mr. Minic speaks.
21 A. [Interpretation] Yes, I see it, but could you please read it and I
22 get the interpretation. I really am unable to read the handwriting.
23 Q. It says there - and in English we are on page 50, I beg your
24 pardon. It says: "Collection of weapons continue."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Which line is it?
2 Q. That is at the bottom of the page marked K0228450.
3 A. Very well, "kuplje," [phoen] I believe that's what it says, I
4 believe you, but I can't read it. The lasting line probably.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: What's your question, Mr. Stamp?
6 MR. STAMP:
7 Q. And you see further on Mr. Sainovic, if you look further down on
8 the document or on the next page, you see Mr. Sainovic speaking and he
9 says: "DB are to cover and take over the third area" and he also
10 says: "Confiscation of weapons process to be reinforced."
11 Do you see that in your documents where Mr. Sainovic speaks?
12 A. Yes, I do see that Mr. Sainovic is speaking. I don't know which
13 line you're referring to.
14 Q. If you look at your document K0228451, do you have that in front
15 of you -- or maybe could we just use e-court, e-court page 40, of the
16 B/C/S version.
17 Mr. Andjelkovic, I'll ask you to use the screen, the computer
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
20 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I appreciate the effort of
21 Mr. Stamp. He read out incorrectly a moment ago. Now he's using the
22 word "confiscation," but no one could see it. Could it be enlarged,
23 please, and only once it's enlarged can the witness be asked to answer
24 because we can't see that. Maybe it does say "confiscated," but we can't
25 see it. Could it be enlarged, please.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: That's being done, Mr. --
2 MR. STAMP: Immediately under -- yes.
3 Q. Could you read that to us, please, Mr. Andjelkovic.
4 A. "That the DB should apply this third zone," if that's what you're
5 asking me about. Could you please read it for me. I'm sorry. I can't
6 read it. You may consider me illiterate but I really can't read it.
7 Q. Do you see where Mr. Sainovic says that the confiscation of
8 weapons process is to be reinforced?
9 A. I believe that's what -- I believe you if you say that's what it
11 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Objection, I'm sorry, I really can't
12 see that anywhere. Will you read it out in English, please, Mr. Stamp,
13 please, I'm not reproaching you in any sense. I can't see it in Serbian.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila, he has read it in English and that's from
15 a translation. Now, the witness apparently cannot read what's on the
16 screen because it's -- of the way it's written. So we'll proceed on the
17 basis that Mr. Stamp has got it right and see if the witness can assist,
18 and parties can assist us in due course about what exactly is said there
19 and his questions will be a complete and utter waste of time if it's shown
20 that the word "confiscate" isn't there.
21 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may --
22 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] It says "konsoliduje," third line.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues]...
24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Third line, that it should
25 be "consolidated" and not "confiscated." You can see that yourself --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Please just be quiet for the moment until we sort
2 out what this is.
3 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
4 JUDGE BONOMY: My understanding, Mr. Fila, is that Mr. Stamp is
5 referring to the last line -- oh --
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] He's talking about the third line from
7 the top and the word is "konsoliduje," that it should be consolidated.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... last section.
9 Mr. Andjelkovic, what does the second-last line say
10 under "Sainovic," the second-last one?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can read it properly, is it to
12 increase or to strengthen administrative -- no, I'm sorry, I really can't
13 read it. Your Honour, I'm being quite sincere about it. I have borrowed
14 these glasses, that's true.
15 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can this word be enlarged,
16 please. And you will see that the first letter is A and not K.
17 It's "administrative." The handwriting is very terrible.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, is there a typewritten B/C/S version of
19 this document?
20 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated].
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Andjelkovic, can you read it any better
22 now, the second-last line?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If I'm reading it correctly,
24 it's to increase or something across the administrative line, but I don't
25 know what. Across the administrative line, but what, I don't know.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there you have no basis for your question,
2 Mr. Stamp, so let's move to something else.
3 MR. STAMP:
4 Q. There's one last question on this document.
5 MR. STAMP: Could we go to page 153 of the B/C/S version on
6 e-court and it's page 158 in English.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What date is it, Mr. Stamp, for me
8 to find it more quickly?
9 MR. STAMP:
10 Q. It's the 28th of October. Can we just --
11 MR. STAMP: If you put it on the screen as well.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the 26th and the 29th on me,
13 26th and then the 29th. I don't have the 28th.
14 MR. STAMP: Can you --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: This is the very last page, is it, Mr. Stamp, in
16 the e-court.
17 MR. STAMP: No, it's not.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it is on ours, I think. Have you got the
19 right number?
20 MR. STAMP: Page number 161, and I have page 143 in e-court, 143
21 in the B/C/S e-court.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you've just asked us to go to pages in the
23 150s; you're now changing that. Can we not have some planning and
24 organisation in the way that this is being conducted because it's not
25 really helping us very much.
1 MR. STAMP: Very well. Let me confer on the matter. Page 143 in
2 e-court is K0228554 --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the 26th.
4 MR. STAMP:
5 Q. Yes. That is what I indicated, the 26th.
6 MR. STAMP: And in the English version for Your Honours, that is
7 page 158.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just so that the witness realises that we don't
9 overlook detail, you actually talked about the 28th, but that's been
10 corrected now.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I heard.
12 MR. STAMP:
13 Q. You see that meeting there of the 26th?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Mr. Sainovic is present at that meeting. Now, I'd like us to
16 go to page 160 of the English, which is 145 of your copy in e-court.
17 A. Which date?
18 Q. The same date but it's -- we're now at page 145, that's K0228556.
19 Do you see Mr. Sainovic there speaking about what he told or what he spoke
20 to about -- what he spoke to Ambassador Hill about, is that where you are?
21 A. I'm sorry, 526, that's not consistent with this page. There is
22 probably a page missing.
23 Q. Page 556.
24 A. Oh, 556, this is 526. There it is, 556. Yes, please, go ahead.
25 I've found it.
1 Q. You see Mr. Sainovic speaking about the --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- meeting with Ambassador Hill?
4 A. Yes. When I -- Ambassador Hill that we are working on --
5 Q. No, no, just -- I wish to take you to a particular part. He's
6 speaking about a discussion he had with Ambassador Hill and you see it
7 goes on and he says: "It is necessary for all to inform themselves about
8 DTS activities in the field."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What are DTS activities, can you just tell us quickly and briefly
12 in a sentence if you can?
13 A. Well, based on my understanding, this is sabotage and terrorist
14 forces, sabotage and terrorist forces. I'm not sure whether or not the
15 expansion might be, it might not be that, of course.
16 Q. It also says: "When pulling out you must be careful not to let
17 anyone find out that parts of some detachments did not pull out. There
18 must not be any discrepancies with information that was given."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, my question is simply this: Having regard to those passages
22 I showed you, would you agree with me or would you not agree with me that
23 Mr. Sainovic on occasion gave instructions at these meetings?
24 A. At the time he was president of the commission for cooperation
25 with the OSCE. It was necessary for the Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement to
1 be fully implemented in terms of the number of people envisaged by that
2 agreement. The agreement exactly envisaged how many policemen, how many
3 soldiers in Kosovo.
4 Q. Yes. And what I'm asking is does the passage I'm speaking about
5 we just went over, does that indicate to you that Mr. Sainovic was in a
6 position to give instructions at these meetings?
7 A. These are not instructions. He was president of the commission
8 for cooperation with the OSCE. It is the task of the commission to comply
9 with that agreement. The state had an interest in seeing the
10 Milosevic-Holbrooke Agreement fully implemented.
11 Q. Do you know what -- well, do you know what he meant when he said
12 that "You must be careful not to let anyone find out that parts of some
13 detachments did not pull out. There must not be discrepancies with the
14 information already given"?
15 A. Information already given on the number of policemen and soldiers
16 necessary and this has to tally with the situation on the ground. This is
17 a sort of warning or request, if you like, what the state has signed must
18 now be implemented or at least that is my reading.
19 Q. Were there some detachments that did not pull out in accordance
20 with the agreement?
21 A. I'd be hard-put to answer that. I know little about military and
22 police business and I was not a member of the commission for the
23 implementation of this agreement. I was only concerned with the work of
24 the Temporary Executive Council.
25 Q. Very well. Do you recall being shown that passage by Mr. Curtis
1 when he interviewed you?
2 A. No, not this one.
3 Q. Do you not recall telling Mr. Curtis that where Mr. Sainovic
4 says: "When pulling out we must be careful enough not to allow anyone to
5 find out that parts of some detachments did not pull out. There must not
6 be any discrepancies with information already given," did you tell
7 Mr. Curtis in respect to that that if that is what happened then there was
8 a breach of the agreement?
9 A. I'm still saying just that. If someone failed to pull out based
10 on the agreement and that would constitute a violation of the agreement,
11 but I'm not saying this was actually the case. I'm still saying the same
12 thing, if there was a unit or a policeman who outstayed the time envisaged
13 in the agreement, well, that's only logical. I think that's what
14 Mr. Sainovic is doing here. He is sending out a warning that no such
15 thing should happen. That is my understanding.
16 Q. If you look further on that document - and now we move to page 161
17 of the English version and I think it is at page 160 -- or, sorry, 146 of
18 your version --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Which is the next page.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. Mr. Andjelkovic says: "Nobody is authorised to take away our
22 documents. All the documents are to be kept on the Joint Command
24 Did you say that?
25 A. Yes, I see that.
1 Q. Did you say that?
2 A. Certainly not like this, but there are two statements that I made
3 on this same page. It's something that I saw as I was going through these
4 documents. One is entirely inaccurate. Whenever I called the Albanians
5 Siptars, all those who know me, both Albanians and Serbs, know that I
6 would never say anything like that. I had a member of the Temporary
7 Executive Council replaced because he did not agree with me that Albanians
8 and Turks and so on and so forth should be called members of ethnic
9 communities, not even ethnic minorities, and there is this insinuation
10 being made in these documents to the effect that I called the Albanians
12 This is just not true, this is an outrage both against me and
13 against my Albanian friends, people that I still see on a regular basis.
14 For example, the first thing being said in this document quotes me as
15 saying just so as to avoid that previous members of the police force
16 should remain in the reserve police force. Your Honour -- and I gave
17 Mr. Curtis my book, it's only about information. I don't like to write
18 things post facto but this other book --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's try and concentrate -- are you saying that
20 for you to refer to an --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
22 understand you.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that for you to refer to an Albanian
24 by the use of the word "Siptar" is offensive?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in my opinion.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that what you understand to be the position
2 among --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never pronounced that word. I
4 never uttered that word.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you understand that to be the position among
6 Serbs in general?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those I consider my friends don't
8 call the Albanians Siptars, although sometimes the term is used, but
9 they're normally referred to members of the Albanian ethnic minority or
10 ethnic community, but I have a large number of friends and I don't like to
11 see something like this turning up in a document and attributed to me as a
12 quote. I'm not saying it's necessarily derogatory; what I'm saying it
13 that it is certainly not a term that I would use.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Why wouldn't you use it if it's not derogatory?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just because my Albanian friends,
16 those who were my colleagues in the youth centre and in the centre for
17 tolerance, I'd prefer to call them Albanians. And in my capacity as a
18 politician, I never used the term differently. Definitely wherever you
19 see the word "Siptar" being used and attributed to me, you can be certain
20 of one thing: I never used it. I still see my friends from Pristina once
21 a week over in Belgrade, Albanian friends, and I don't like that term
22 being used.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Bearing in mind the personnel who were attending
24 these meetings, are you surprised to see the word "Siptar" written in this
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in relation to politicians and
2 in relation to most present there, with the exception, obviously, of the
3 person taking the notes.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Stamp.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Mr. Stamp's question, at the
7 meeting Mr. Pavkovic - and Mr. Pavkovic attended the meeting - he said at
8 the end of the meeting that General Samardzic, who was the commander of
9 the 3rd Army, his superior at the time, had told him to not go there again
10 or meet any civilians. Of course he was perfectly within his rights.
11 This is the military chain of command. Let's imagine Mr. Vlajko
12 Stojiljkovic had ordered a policeman not to be there, he would have been
13 perfectly within his rights. We were civilians and we did not intervene
14 with these things --
15 MR. STAMP:
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andjelkovic.
17 A. I'm just answering your question, Mr. Stamp. But likewise, I'm in
18 that office, I had been there for three weeks, I'm the president of the
19 Temporary Executive Council, nobody has the right to ask for my documents
20 from that office, documents I received, dozens of pages. I don't like
21 civilians interfering in the work of the army and the same thing applies
22 vice versa, the army searching my own office. Everything that remained in
23 that office alongside Mr. De Mello and his representatives when they found
24 a different office for us when I stayed in Pristina until October 2000
25 with the members of the temporary Executive Board, they took all the
1 documents and you probably have it, what was there and what was searched
2 and what was taken. Therefore when I said --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I have turned off your microphone because you are
4 way past answering the question you were asked.
5 Mr. Stamp, your next question.
6 MR. STAMP:
7 Q. Well, the --
8 A. Okay, so, I did not mention the Joint Command, that much is
9 certain, but the documents, my documents from my office, yes.
10 Q. But did you recommend that documents were to be kept somewhere?
11 A. I said everyone should keep their documents in their own office,
12 the military in their own, the police in their own, and I kept mine in the
13 Temporary Executive Council. I had already held up until that point in
14 time four meetings of the Temporary Executive Council.
15 Q. Can we have a look at page 2166 --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Where are you --
17 MR. STAMP: Sorry.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: -- with your cross-examination, Mr. Stamp?
19 MR. STAMP: I'm moving very slowly and I think I have at least a
20 half-hour left, if I'd be granted that period of time.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: I know that you've been interrupted from time to
22 time, but that's largely because it's a fairly ill-prepared exercise that
23 you're going through. You must get through this more quickly if you want
24 to ask a reasonable number of questions, having regard to the time that's
25 available to us overall and bearing in mind the efficiency with which the
1 Defence are conducting their examinations.
2 Now, this is important -- an important area and we are not
3 inclined to stop you just at the moment because of the interruptions, but
4 you're going to have to pay back this time at some stage soon and
5 Mr. Hannis made it clear -- he indicated yesterday that the
6 cross-examination wouldn't be this length. So you're doing something
7 different from what we anticipated, but please continue and try to make it
8 as efficient as possible.
9 MR. STAMP: Mr. --
10 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I won't have any additional questions;
11 therefore, if Mr. Stamp can wrap this up in 15 minutes, we're going to be
12 all right.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: He's just said he's got at least half an hour, so
14 let's move on, please.
15 MR. STAMP: Let's move to 2166. P2166, could we get that document
16 for the witness, please.
17 Q. If you see the front page of that document it's entitled: "The
18 minutes of the meeting of the operations interdepartmental staff of the
19 suppression of terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija." Have you seen this
20 document before or a document like this before?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It is a record of a meeting on the 29th of October, 1998, chaired
23 by President Milutinovic in which, if you can -- sorry, President
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. --
1 MR. STAMP:
2 Q. If you can see from the first page that you are one of the
3 participants at that meeting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could we look at page 10 in your version, please, and this is page
6 9 of the English version, page 10 in the B/C/S copy, please. At the top
7 of page 10 on your version - and this is the bottom of page 9 - do you see
8 there Mr. Milomir Minic proposed the following and at item 2 it says that
9 the question of unifying, systemizing and safe-guarding documentation
10 concerning the activities of state organs in suppressing terrorism in
11 Kosovo and Metohija should be resolved" --
12 A. All right. I don't understand.
13 Q. I will ask the question. And prior to that, in item 1 he refers
14 to the operation staff providing an assessment of how successful is the
15 Joint Command for KiM has conferred the authorisations conferred upon him.
16 Do you recall him referring at that meeting to the Joint Command?
17 A. No, I don't, he spoke about political issues and this is the last
18 meeting at which we as a Working Group were with Slobodan Milosevic. The
19 last time I was there was on the 16th of October, 2000, that was the next
21 Q. Do you recall him or anybody else at that meeting - and I just --
22 to move quickly, I just represent to you that this record has various
23 persons at the meeting including Mr. Sainovic, Mr. Milutinovic,
24 Mr. Milosevic, referring to the Joint Command --
25 A. Yes, I remember the meeting, sir.
1 Q. Do you recall anybody at that meeting referring to the Joint
3 A. Let me be sincere, Your Honours. I wasn't listening to those
4 terms. I wasn't interested. I listened to Mr. Minic talk about the
5 political situation in Kosovo and Metohija. I was interested in that. As
6 for the rest that they were saying, I just wasn't interested. I was there
7 to see the president of the socialist party of Serbia and Mr. Minic
8 informed me that we would be seeing the president. I had no idea who
9 would be at that meeting.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: You are -- what position did you hold in the party,
11 remind me?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the Main Board,
13 nothing more, consisting of 350 members. I still have that humble
14 capacity in the party.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: And you weren't interested to know what the Joint
16 Command might be with your interest in matters bureaucratic?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I told you, I may
18 have heard different terms being used at the meeting. I believe them to
19 be military terms. I simply didn't spend any time thinking about who was
20 using which term, and I am being entirely honest.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: But here we have one of your Working Group using
22 that expression according to this record, that's why these questions are
23 being asked of you, not because it is a soldier using them.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
1 Mr. Stamp --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you entirely. I don't
3 know if Mr. Minic used the term or not, really, I am being very honest
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. If we have a look at page 13, the top of page 13 in the B/C/S
7 version of that and it's -- on the English translation it's on the middle
8 of page 12. It records President Milutinovic saying he supported the
9 proposal for consideration of the continued status of the Joint Command
10 and Milutinovic believes the Joint Command should continue functioning for
11 a while. You see that there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Let's look at page 13, the bottom of page 14 -- page 13 in the
14 B/C/S copy and the middle of page 13 in English. It has Deputy Prime
15 Minister Sainovic agreeing with the opinion that the viability of the
16 continued activity of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija in its
17 present composition should be re-evaluated. He said that the number of
18 people thus engaged should be reduced and better prepare them to be more
19 effective. May I just repeat that. He said that the number of people
20 thus engaged should be reduced and better prepare them for more effective
21 action in new conditions.
22 Okay, I accept that you're saying that you didn't hear about the
23 Joint Command. Did you hear them speaking about any body or group that
24 ought to be reduced or ought to be re-organised in respect to the work in
1 A. Yes, about the need for cooperation between the police and the
2 army. They were talking about that all the time, whether this cooperation
3 went by the name of joint staff or Joint Command, as you suggest, is not
4 something that I can say. But I did hear about the need for cooperation
5 between the police and the army under the conditions that prevailed at the
6 time. This was something that was only natural.
7 Q. Very well. Let's turn quickly to the meeting you had or you say
8 not a meeting, you say you went to dinner with General Vasiljevic on one
9 occasion. And General Vasiljevic just happened to walk into a situation
10 where -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that.
11 You went to a meeting on one occasion with Mr. Sainovic in June
12 1999, do you recall that?
13 A. As I said, Mr. Sainovic came to see me --
14 Q. Yes, yes, we know that --
15 A. -- I was glad -- [In English] Okay.
16 Q. Do you recall if there were maps in the room where the group were,
17 the group of people were?
18 A. [Interpretation] I remember PCs and right in the middle of that
19 room there was a bowling alley, I think that's what it was. I knew
20 General Vasiljevic's face from TV, his face was familiar, but I had never
21 met him before and there were a number of other generals I didn't
23 Q. Do you remember if there were maps in the room?
24 A. I don't think, but really I don't remember. I saw the computers
25 and sheets, piles of paper around the computers. The room itself is twice
1 as big as this courtroom; it's a bowling alley, after all.
2 Q. Did you see General Lukic give a presentation in which he pointed
3 to places on maps? This is what General Vasiljevic told us -- sorry, I
4 beg your pardon. Sorry, I beg your pardon. Did you see General Lazarevic
5 there at that meeting?
6 A. I think he was -- well, there were between 10 and 15 people there,
7 perhaps even more --
8 Q. Did you see General Lazarevic --
9 A. -- I think he was there. I don't know who else was there. I
10 can't swear upon it, but he probably was there.
11 Q. But --
12 A. -- but as I said, I couldn't swear upon it. 78 days of bombing
13 are committed between Belgrade and Pristina. This one dinner, who was
14 there, I really don't know. I can't swear on it.
15 Q. What I'm suggesting to you -- or asking you about is whether or
16 not you saw any general describe what was happening in the field by
17 reference to maps in that meeting.
18 A. No. At that dinner what was discussed was whether General
19 Pavkovic or Lazarevic -- they were talking about the border, something
20 like that, that's what I remember, about the border, the attempts to
21 de-block the border by air-strikes so that forces might come in. That's
22 all. But I don't remember anything else. I was glad to see Pavkovic
23 after nearly 70 days.
24 Q. When you went into that room, were the generals there, and you say
25 you don't remember who, were they seated around the table?
1 A. They were seated around that table and around those computers in
2 the room, some officers, some people.
3 Q. Now, was the meal served as you went in or did you speak with
4 these people before?
5 A. Yes, yes, we were having dinner. First we talked and then we had
6 dinner. How long we talked for is not something that I can say, half an
7 hour, 45 minutes, it was a long time ago. I can't remember, but I know
8 that we were having dinner.
9 Q. Very well --
10 A. That's what I wanted, that's why I was there and to see those
12 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Lukic gave a presentation at that
14 A. I really don't know. I can't remember -- I was interested in
15 hearing what Mr. Sainovic would say about the talks between Milosevic,
16 Ahtissari, Chernomyrdin, because we all wanted this chaos to come to an
17 end as soon as possible. And I know that on the 2nd there was a session
18 of the Executive Council.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
21 MR. STAMP:
22 Q. You told us, Mr. Andjelkovic, that you were with Mr. Sainovic at
23 your office?
24 A. Yes, that's what I said, from my office we went there.
25 Q. And you were anxious to hear what Mr. Sainovic would say about
1 these meetings when you went there?
2 A. Yes. I asked Mr. Sainovic about the agreement and then I asked
3 whether he would have dinner with us. We had a small coffee bar like
4 everyone, and he said, General Pavkovic has invited us to dinner and I'll
5 speak about the negotiations there, and that's why I wanted to hear what I
6 was going to say.
7 Q. Now, as -- at that time in June, am I to understand you correctly
8 that you are saying that you could have attended a meeting with generals
9 like General Pavkovic and General Lazarevic and General Lukic and you
10 don't recall whether or not they gave reports?
11 A. Mr. Stamp, I was president of the Temporary Executive Council and
12 from the minutes of the work of that council you will see that my main
13 concern was to feed the people who were coming back and who were short of
14 food in Kosovo and Metohija. And I asked for aid from Belgrade and
15 Mr. De Mello when he came in May with an inter-parliamentary delegation
16 and there's a note in the UN about it.
17 Q. You're saying that having not seen these persons who are engaged
18 in fighting this war for -- since the war started, you attend a meeting
19 where they are present and you cannot recall whether or not they reported
20 about what was happening in the field at this point in time?
21 A. I had my own worries and I couldn't help the army and the police.
22 I had problems with members of the Executive Council, and you can see this
23 from the minutes --
24 Q. Very well, very well.
25 A. -- how to feed the people and how to put an end to this horror in
1 Kosovo and when the agreement would finally be signed and that's what I
2 told Mr. De Mello. When we changed the plan that Zivadin Jovanovic had
3 made for him, we wanted to see as much as possible in Kosovo.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you cannot recall whether or
5 not that happened?
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Where are you now, Mr. Stamp?
7 MR. STAMP: 15 minute.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: On different topics?
9 MR. STAMP: I just -- yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it won't be tonight, that's ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: It was a regular feature of discussions with
13 Defence counsel when they were cross-examining Prosecution witnesses that
14 they should prioritize the cross-examination. You cannot in this arena
15 examine the way you might in a domestic context on every little point that
16 you think you might be able to explore with the witness. There has to be
17 prioritizing. There's no indication in this case that you really have
18 given much thought to that.
19 As with the Defence, however, we are very reluctant to actually
20 stop any cross-examination, but we will stop them if we really think our
21 requests are not being given due recognition. We note that you think this
22 can be completed in 15 minutes tomorrow, and therefore we will allow you
23 15 minutes tomorrow.
24 I regret, Mr. Andjelkovic, that means you have to come back
25 tomorrow. We were doing all we thought we could to try and complete this
1 evidence today. We will be sitting at 9.00 tomorrow morning. You should
2 be here, ready to resume at 9.00, and overnight you must have absolutely
3 no discussion with anybody whatsoever about the evidence in this case.
4 You can discuss anything else you like but not the evidence in this case.
5 Would you now please leave the courtroom with the usher.
6 Mr. Fila, do you have only one more witness after this?
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I want to give you a prognosis. The
8 examination-in-chief will take as long as this one did, and I do only have
9 one more witness.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, thank you.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sepenuk, I take it you'll be in a position to
14 start tomorrow?
15 MR. SEPENUK: Yes, Your Honour, we will.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: And if -- how long do you estimate the opening
18 MR. SEPENUK: I would say half an hour or so, 45 minutes.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: So there may also be evidence?
20 MR. SEPENUK: There could be, yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Thank you very much.
22 We'll sit tomorrow at 9.00.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of
25 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.