Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19191

1 Wednesday, 28 November 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Filipovic.


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... The solemn

10 declaration to speak the truth, which you made at the outset of your

11 evidence continues to apply to the evidence today.

12 Mr. Cepic.

13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, good afternoon.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. Are you rested?

20 A. Yes. Thank you.

21 Q. Are there any examples of Serbs moving out and even leaving their

22 property to Siptars?

23 A. There are numerous examples of that, because that's how it was in

24 those wartime conditions. People helped each other and tried to make due

25 any way they could.

Page 19192

1 And here's an example. There was a well-known professor of

2 mathematics from Pristina university, Toma Milenkovic. Immediately after

3 the air-strikes began, he moved away. And he had a good neighbour,

4 Semsudin Hejdija [phoen] and his son Halil. And Semsudin had four sons.

5 He gave them the keys to his flat and he gave them his fridge, because his

6 neighbour had a cevapcici restaurant, and he said that he could use his

7 fridge. That's an example for you.

8 Q. You mentioned migration in Pristina, moving out. Could you please

9 tell me when this peaked.

10 A. Well, moving of the population out of Pristina began --

11 Q. We've heard that.

12 A. It grew in intensity especially after the air-strikes of the very

13 centre of town, which was on the 7th of April. After that, this migration

14 increased, especially because some crucial facilities, such as the

15 transformer station in Pristina were bombed. The waterworks near Badovac

16 supplying Pristina with water were also bombed. Communications were

17 damaged. People were in a panic because telephone lines had been cut off.

18 Only some telephone lines were established using an old switchboard, a

19 makeshift switchboard, and only some people had access to phone lines. So

20 after that, this movement increased.

21 Q. You're a witness of the events in Pristina. Can you tell me the

22 targeted facilities in Pristina and the surroundings, what was the

23 relationship between civilian and military facilities?

24 A. Well, approximately 90 per cent to 10 per cent. 90 per cent of

25 the targets hit in Pristina were civilian targets. The only military

Page 19193

1 target in Pristina was the Pristina barracks. That was bombed, but the

2 barracks had been abandoned because the 15th Armoured Brigade had left the

3 barracks before the aggression and taken up their positions, and the

4 remaining positions were all civilian positions.

5 Q. Thank you. Colonel, did you see columns of civilians in the town

6 of Pristina?

7 A. Yes, I did. I did see columns of civilians moving through the

8 town of Pristina. I would see them in the immediate vicinity of my

9 command post, some 10 metres away from where my command post was. They

10 often passed by there in the course of the aggression, in both directions.

11 These columns moved from several directions, especially from the direction

12 of Donje Ljubce, Grastica, via Vranjevac, passing by the municipal court

13 and the municipal building, then along Mladina Popovica Street, passing by

14 the secondary school and the Proleterske Street; and then it would go

15 down -- part of it will go down Vidovdanska Street, and another part

16 through Belgradska Street. And then after a while, the same columns would

17 go back, the same people would be in those columns.

18 The aim, especially in the area from Ljubce to Grastica was to

19 have terrorists join those columns who threw away their weapons and fled

20 before the forces fighting them and shooting at them. That's it in brief.

21 It was an imitation of migration, similar to what happened in 1990, when

22 they pretended to be poisoned by non-existent poisons, and that's a

23 well-known incident that I don't want to dwell on any more.

24 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I am unclear, you should know, Mr. Cepic, about how

Page 19194

1 you know whether a column is leaving because of the bombing or is leaving

2 as some device organised by the KLA. It's very vague.

3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We'll try to

4 clarify.

5 Q. Colonel, the columns you described as moving through Pristina, did

6 you recognize the same people in those columns sometimes?

7 A. In the columns that moved through Pristina, especially those that

8 passed by the building where my command was, after they passed in one

9 direction, I would see the same people - not just I, but other members of

10 my command - would see the same people going back in the other direction,

11 along the same route. We even asked some of them where they were going,

12 and they would say, "We don't know. That's what they told us. That's

13 what they told us to do."

14 I was born there. I had lived there for a long time. I knew a

15 lot of people personally. And that's why I was able to recognize them and

16 know that they were the very same people moving first in one direction and

17 then back in the opposite direction.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these different columns from the ones that were

19 migrating to escape the bombs?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my answer is as follows:

21 Some of those columns behaved in the way I have just described. Some

22 citizens really fled to escape the bombs. They were concerned and

23 frightened of the bombing. Some had had relatives killed or wounded by

24 the bombs. And these were civilians fleeing. However, there were many of

25 those that I've just described who were simply pretending to migrate, and

Page 19195

1 these were more numerous than the former category. At least, as far as

2 the town of Pristina is concerned.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Cepic.

5 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, in the streets of Pristina, did you see

7 prominent Albanians?

8 A. Yes. I saw many Albanians. I socialised with some of them at my

9 command post, because it was located in the municipal building and they

10 came to work there every day, and I would also see some well-known

11 Albanians walking down the street. For example, the notorious ideologue

12 of the terrorists, Adem Demaci. He would pass by my command almost every

13 day. He wore a beige coat, nearly white. It was very light in colour.

14 And he would pass by without hindrance, first in one direction and then

15 the other, throughout the entire aggression. I noticed him, and so did

16 other members of my command. And this also relates to others. But, well,

17 this is just an example. And this is true.

18 Q. Just to clarify a point, what is Adem Demaci known for? Why is he

19 notorious?

20 A. Well, he is notorious because of many bad things. Many years

21 before, he had been sentenced for terrorist activity. Some 30 years

22 before, he had been sentenced to nine years for terrorist activity. That

23 was his first sentence. And my father was a juror in that trial. Later

24 on, he was sentenced to 13 years again. He spent a large part of his life

25 in prison for inciting terrorism and for terrorism. That's it in brief.

Page 19196

1 Q. And are these judgements from the SFRY period?

2 A. Yes. They date from the '60s, after the fourth plenum.

3 Q. Thank you. Colonel, what were the living conditions in the town

4 of Pristina itself?

5 A. Well, very briefly, in the town of Pristina, in view of the daily

6 bombing and the wartime conditions, in line with these conditions -- or

7 rather, if we take these conditions into account, life went on more or

8 less as normal, speaking in relative terms. For example, all the bakeries

9 in town were operating. The privately-owned bakeries, owned both by

10 Siptars and Serbs, continued operating, as did a large state-owned bakery.

11 The television institutions continued operating in four languages:

12 Siptar, Serb, Roma, and a fourth one. Newspapers were published and

13 distributed, including newspapers in the Siptar language. Shops were

14 open. The clinical hospital centre treated all citizens. The maternity

15 ward was operating. And as I frequently had contacts with the State

16 Registry Office - the chief of that service was Adnan - I remember more

17 than 100 Siptar children were inscribed in the register of births. They

18 were born in Pristina Hospital; although, many children were not entered

19 into the registers because of the war. But all institutions were

20 operating.

21 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Page 6, 17. I believe the witness said a Turkish

25 language as well and he said the radio was operating in all four languages

Page 19197

1 as well. It hasn't been entered into the transcript.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, during the aggression, were old-age

5 pensions paid to citizens regardless of ethnicity?

6 A. This function of local self-management also continued to operate.

7 When the post office, the main post office in Pristina was hit, then it

8 was no longer possible to use postal services and to pay out old-age

9 pensions. The post office immediately responded and set up makeshift

10 desks in the Union Building next to the theatre, which was across the road

11 from the post office. There was more than one desk operating, and people

12 queued up at these desks to get their old-age pensions. And most of these

13 were Siptars. Of course, because there were more of them living in the

14 town and receiving old-age pensions. And the same applied to Gracanica,

15 one of the largest places in Pristina municipality. Old-age pensions for

16 the villages of Ajvalija, Mramor, Slivovo, Dragovac, Saskovac, and all the

17 surroundings villages were also paid out. That's as far as old-age

18 pensions are concerned.

19 Q. Can you remember any names of people queueing up to get their

20 pension -- pensions?

21 A. Well, pensions were paid to all citizens inter alia because the

22 pension fund had a republican pension fund and also a military pension

23 fund. I recognized many of those who were military pensioners getting

24 their pensions there. I won't enumerate them now, but there were many of

25 them, and many among them would stay there, leave Kosovo, and come back

Page 19198

1 again several times during the aggression. They would move away and then

2 they would come back.

3 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the bakery as operating throughout the

4 war. Do you know what the ratio of employees in the bakery was, as far as

5 ethnic affiliation goes?

6 A. Well, the city bakery, the main one, on the road leading to Kosovo

7 Polje, the director was Djordje Simic, produced about 20 to 25 thousand

8 kilogrammes of bread per day, which was similar to the production before

9 the aggression. The breakdown of employees was as follows: More than

10 two-thirds were Siptars, especially in direct production, because

11 production of bread in Kosovo is not in the Serb tradition. But even

12 without that many work organisations, many enterprises introduced work

13 obligation, and in socially owned institutions and other enterprises, more

14 than 50 per cent were Siptars, and they continued to come to work

15 regularly. Even the investigating court had Siptar employees, and they

16 came to work and participated in investigations, and so on and so forth.

17 Q. Colonel, let's talk now about houses of worship and religious

18 buildings. Were any such buildings in the town of Pristina damaged or

19 destroyed?

20 A. As regards the city of Pristina, I can say that not a single house

21 of worship or religious building was either damaged or destroyed. I am

22 referring to Islamic, Catholic, and Orthodox buildings. And I'm

23 especially referring to Islamic ones.

24 In the vicinity of my command, there were two very important and

25 large mosques which represent the cultural heritage of Islam, the

Page 19199

1 Carska or Emperor's Mosque, Jasar Pasa's Mosque, and a third mosque, and

2 they all remained undamaged, as did the other facilities during the

3 aggression, religious services were held there. I saw that personally.

4 But as regards Orthodox buildings, the situation was not the same. The

5 Orthodox cemetery in Pristina was bombed more than once, and on one

6 occasion it was bombed when I was there, because I was attending a

7 funeral, the funeral of an officer who had been killed. His name was

8 Milic. He had a twin brother who was -- and he was killed in the NATO

9 bombing. And we barely managed to complete the funeral. We were almost

10 all killed, and many graves were damaged.

11 In the vicinity of Pristina, the cemetery in Gornja Brnjica was

12 damaged, as was the cemetery church, part of the cultural heritage and

13 monument to the Kosovo battle at Gazimestan were also damaged, and so on

14 and so forth.

15 Q. Thank you. Regardless of whether house of worship belonged to the

16 Catholic, Orthodox, or Muslim faith, were any military facilities or

17 equipment placed in any one of these buildings?

18 A. No. I categorically state that that was not the case.

19 Q. Thank you. We heard about the town of Pristina, but let's talk

20 about the surrounding villages now -- or actually, before that, I'm

21 interested in the following: Did cluster bombs hit Pristina and the

22 surrounding area?

23 A. In the town of Pristina and in the surrounding area, there were

24 many hits by cluster bombs. Some of the remains of these cluster bombs

25 were collected by us, and out of these remains we made a small exhibition

Page 19200

1 in front of our command. So all citizens, Serbs, Siptars, and all

2 passers-by could see this collection of those remains. This was even

3 filmed by some foreign journalists.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you just give me an example of the largest

5 villages around Pristina. What was life like? Briefly.

6 A. Well, I'll enumerate a few villages, although Pristina as a

7 municipality includes over 46 villages. I'm going to mention those that

8 are the closest and that are the most characteristic. For example, the

9 village of Gracanica is the largest village inhabited by Serbs. That goes

10 for the entire Kosovo and Metohija.

11 Life was relatively normal there, except for the fact that very

12 close to the monastery of Gracanica and the village of Gracanica, there

13 were many bombings of military facilities; namely, a warehouse that was

14 nearby. So this disturbed the citizens. Otherwise, life went on as

15 normal.

16 And let me say that in the village there was a big bakery that was

17 operating, that worked before the war too. A Siptar, Leki Nikolj [phoen]

18 was the owner of that factory. He baked bread there, and he sold his

19 bread to citizens during the aggression, before the aggression, after the

20 aggression. When his son got killed, the citizens of Gracanica, Serbs,

21 went to the funeral of his son, to his native village in Metohija. So

22 there's that example.

23 Then there's also the village of Ajvalija that was one of the

24 larger Siptar villages before the aggression. Although, before that it

25 had mostly been populated by Serbs. Life in that village evolved in a

Page 19201

1 rather organized way. There are many examples of Serbs helping each other

2 out, Serb and Siptars actually helping each other out with food supplies

3 and so on; Serbs were very few there actually. All shops were open. All

4 the shops that were open were only owned by Siptars. Primarily the

5 families of Vitija, Gashi, Berisha, those shops were open on a regular

6 basis. The mosque --

7 Q. Just a moment, please. Not all of this can be recorded in the

8 transcript.

9 A. The mosque in the village of Gracanica did not only remain

10 undamaged but religious services were held regularly there. As a matter

11 of fact, this village took in some Siptar refugees from the surrounding

12 villages. The village council took them in. The village council included

13 the families of Pacoli [phoen], Vitija, and Drela. An attempt was made to

14 have the population moved out of this village on two occasions, actually,

15 Siptars; namely, in the direction of Kolonija, Ajvalija, Vucji Potok,

16 Mramor. The other direction was Vucji Potok and Mramor. That is where

17 they had been promised to be taken in by the terrorist forces. The

18 terrorist forces would organise their life there. Some of them went there

19 and stayed there for a day or two, and then went back to their own

20 village, realizing that that had not been true. And that is where they

21 stayed, in their own village until the end of the aggression. They lived

22 a peaceful life. No one was hurt, except for one citizen, Sopiani, who in

23 the area of Mramor and Mranice, he was a victim and no one knows why.

24 The village of Maticane, this is also one of the biggest villages,

25 closest to the town of Pristina. It is inhabited by Siptars. There were

Page 19202

1 about 20 houses of Serbs. Life in that village was also practically

2 normal, except that in that village the few Serbs there during the

3 aggression and just before the aggression, and later on during the

4 aggression, they were expelled, and some were even killed and kidnapped.

5 For example, Momir Kostic was kidnapped and his wife was killed. They

6 were from that village. And the terrorists did that.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. And many others, not to enumerate all the names now. A woman by

9 the name of Julijana was killed. Her husband was killed. And so on.

10 Q. Thank you.


12 A. [Previous translation continues] ... The village of Kisnica,

13 actually, a mining town near the Gracanica Jezero. It's an old mine with

14 a mining colony. It was inhabited both by Serbs and Siptars.

15 That mine used to work very intensively. Before the aggression,

16 there was a decline in its production and it worked a very small capacity.

17 Also, some of its facilities worked throughout the aggression. Serbs and

18 Siptars had work assignments throughout the aggression. And the command

19 post of the corps command was there for a while. It happened that way.

20 Irrespective of that, life went on as normal. The mining clinic

21 was open as well. It was headed by a doctor, Dr. Jahija, an Albanian.

22 He's a dentist, actually, and he was head of that clinic or infirmary.

23 And nearby there was a refugee centre where refugees were put up, Serbs

24 who had fled from Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 In that centre during the course of the aggression, a number of

Page 19203

1 Siptars who had fled from some other places near Pristina were put up.

2 They were put up together with the Serb refugees, and they shared the same

3 destiny. They were only about 100 metres away from the command post of

4 the corps command.

5 Q. Thank you. Colonel, my last question: The members of the Army of

6 Yugoslavia in Pristina, did they participate in any way in expelling

7 citizens?

8 A. In the briefest possible terms, no.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. There is not a single example of that kind.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That was my

14 last question.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.

16 Mr. Fila.

17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour. Very

18 briefly.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, I'll have a few questions for you. You

21 saw Defence Exhibit 5D348.

22 Could we please see it on our screens. Just to speed things up.

23 While we're waiting for this document, let me say -- ah, here it

24 is. Could we just have paragraph 1 zoomed in on.

25 As you can see, it says here: "After the planned relocation of

Page 19204

1 the Pristina Command outside the building of the command."

2 Now I want to ask you the following: Once the command of the

3 Pristina Corps was relocated, did it ever go back during the course of the

4 war? Yes or no?

5 A. When the command was relocated, from this building that was its

6 headquarters in peacetime and where I was too, the corps command never

7 returned there. I, as garrison commander, took it upon myself to provide

8 external security for it; however, inside the command was never there any

9 more.

10 Q. Thank you. You have a great deal of experience in this. Could

11 you please explain to us amateurs what this Pristina Corps Command looks

12 like in peacetime, and generally speaking what it looks like. How many

13 people are there? What happens there? What is required in order to

14 command the Pristina Corps?

15 A. Well, I, as a member of the command, can explain this briefly;

16 although, that is not exactly my line of work in terms of my function, but

17 I will tell you about it.

18 The corps command especially and any command is a complex

19 mechanism. It has several organisational parts, especially the corps

20 command according to wartime establishment is deployed in a broad area.

21 Q. I asked you about peacetime. What was it like in peacetime? The

22 command of the Pristina Corps while it was in that building.

23 A. While it was in that building, we, the entire peacetime command,

24 that had about 100 men, was headquartered there. It wasn't only the

25 command of the Pristina Corps that was there.

Page 19205

1 Q. How many storeys does this building have?

2 A. I think it's five storeys. I may be making a mistake by one, but

3 I think it's five storeys.

4 Q. You said that you took care of that building as you -- as you were

5 appointed commander of the Pristina garrison, as it says here.

6 I want to ask you the following: During the course of the war --

7 actually, let's do it this way: Did some people enter that building from

8 the military? For example, General Lazarevic, General Pavkovic, then some

9 other people from the police, and then some civilians too; and then from

10 that building, from that command post that was there in peacetime -- are

11 you following me? The way you described it. Did these people command the

12 units of the Army of Yugoslavia and MUP from there?

13 A. No, no way. I categorically state that that was not the case,

14 because the commander of the guard would have had to inform me about this.

15 That was Vuckovic. But I would have known myself too.

16 Q. One more question. In order -- in order to command, do you need

17 some kind of communications? Do you need to keep up communications? Or

18 does somebody just sit in a room and command through the window, or

19 whatever?

20 A. You cannot command a modern war without modern communications

21 equipment and systems of communication.

22 Q. Were there such systems during the course of the war in that

23 building, the ones that you're talking about now?

24 A. Let me tell you quite briefly. This is not exactly my line of

25 work. But the 52nd Centre for Communications was there. However, when

Page 19206

1 the aggressions started, the entire 52nd Stationary Centre for

2 Communications was relocated there, in its entirety.

3 Q. Thank you. My last question: At the Grand Hotel, you said -- I'm

4 just saying this for the transcript. You said that this 52nd -- answer:

5 "Stationary centre of communications headed by Colonel Mladenovic

6 relocated from that building at the beginning of the aggression."

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. The transcript doesn't seem

8 to be right again. I do apologise.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: We better have that answer again. The question

10 was: Were there such systems - that's modern communications equipment and

11 systems - during the course of the war in that building? That is, the

12 original Pristina Corps Command centre. What's the answer to that

13 question?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to that question is as

15 follows: There weren't any people there who were working for them, and

16 equipment was not there. If there had been such equipment, it was taken

17 out.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: What -- your answer, though, was -- was quite

19 different from that. It -- it had something to do with the 52nd Centre

20 for Communications. What did you tell us about that? Because it's not

21 been -- apparently not been transcribed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that centre, when the

23 aggression started, was relocated from that place, moved out of that

24 place, in accordance with a plan.

25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

Page 19207

1 Q. Last question, Colonel. You mentioned some kind of information

2 centre when you were speaking, of the Pristina Corps.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. Please

4 proceed.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You mentioned the information centre of the Pristina Corps. Could

7 you please tell us, where was that centre located? In what building? And

8 what purpose did it serve?

9 A. That information centre was located in the building of the Grand

10 Hotel, and it mostly provided information to the public and also liaised

11 with the media, informing the public about the developments in Kosovo and

12 Metohija at that time, and in particular with the efforts of the army, to

13 deal with the wartime conditions and to establish new -- a proper way of

14 life for the civilians.

15 Q. So would you agree with me that the Pristina Corps Command was not

16 located at that hotel?

17 A. Yes, that is correct. It was not headquartered there.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:

22 Q. Good afternoon. I take it I can refer to you as "Colonel"; is

23 that right?

24 A. Good afternoon. Yes. Yes, you may.

25 Q. Before I -- before I start on a more substantive topic, I'd just

Page 19208

1 like to go back to one thing you said yesterday in answer to my learned

2 friend. Do you remember being asked about whether the VJ artillery would

3 fire from Vranjevac to the village of Kojlovica? Do you remember a

4 question about that?

5 A. I remember.

6 Q. And your answer to that question was that it did not take place,

7 and you said, and I quote: "Especially since Kojlovica is a mixed

8 village, populated by both Serbs and Albanians." Do you remember that?

9 A. I remember that. But it was in the context of the previous

10 sentences, so it cannot just stand alone.

11 Q. Well, let me ask you this: I take it when you said "especially

12 that it was a mixed village," you were saying that it's inconceivable that

13 the VJ would fire upon Serb civilians. Would you agree with that?

14 A. First of all, it is inconceivable for the Army of Yugoslavia to

15 open fire on any civilians. So as far as the Army of Yugoslavia was

16 concerned, civilians both of Siptar ethnic background and Serbs, they were

17 all the same.

18 Q. So I take it that that's if the village was solely populated by

19 Albanian civilians, it would not make a difference.

20 A. I've said - and let me repeat once again - the Army of Yugoslavia

21 never opened fire on any civilians, and it would never do that. It would

22 be in contravention of the international conventions and customs of war,

23 and also it would be contrary to our laws. All the soldiers and all the

24 officers of the Army of Yugoslavia were aware of that.

25 Q. Now, Colonel, you said that throughout the conflict, at least when

Page 19209

1 NATO started its bombing campaign, you were in Pristina. Is that right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And during the period that the conflict continued, I take it you

4 remained in Pristina.

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And so you didn't have the opportunity to visit the other outer

7 lying municipalities within Kosovo itself, did you?

8 A. On one occasion, I left Pristina; that was during the aggression.

9 I asked the corps commander for permission, and he allowed me to leave and

10 to visit my son in the Vitina area. I did that. I took one day off. I

11 went there and I returned in the same day. I spent the remainder of the

12 time in Pristina and in its vicinity.

13 Q. Very well, then. So in answer to my question, apart from that one

14 day where you had a family visit, if I can put it that way, you did not

15 visit the other command posts of the VJ throughout Kosovo and Metohija,

16 did you, during the conflict?

17 A. Well, my answer to your question is as follows: In the town of

18 Pristina, there were many other military units. These units had their own

19 command posts. I visited some of those, such as on two or three occasions

20 I visited the command post of the Pristina Military Department and the

21 command post of the Military District of Pristina. I also visited -- but

22 in fact, this was not just a visit. I went to the corps command. It was

23 an official visit. That was in Kisnica. And this is all I can remember

24 at this point in time.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you. Perhaps -- perhaps my question was not precise

Page 19210

1 enough. I just want you to confirm for me that during the conflict you

2 were not -- you did not visit the military establishments in, for example,

3 Pec or Prizren or Kosovo Polje. Is that correct?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. So you must accept that you would not know whether the VJ in those

6 areas - and of course, they -- they were present in those areas - you

7 would not know whether they were in fact firing at civilians or violating

8 international humanitarian law, would you?

9 A. Well, you could not really say that I don't know about that,

10 because you don't gain all your knowledge by seeing things for yourself;

11 although, if you are an eyewitness, this is a much more certain kind of

12 knowledge and it makes you a more reliable witness. I had many contacts

13 with the troops, with the officers, and I never got any such information.

14 That's number one.

15 Number two, from the point of view of what we had been trained and

16 taught to do and what we had prepared before the aggression, I was

17 absolutely sure that nothing of the sort could actually happen.

18 So that would be my answer to you.

19 Q. Your job was to be the group commander of the Pristina garrison,

20 wasn't it?

21 A. I led a command group that I described earlier, and the

22 composition was also described, and the commander of the Pristina

23 garrison.

24 Q. And in that group, were there departments that were actively

25 involved in combat?

Page 19211

1 A. I said this yesterday, and let me repeat today: In that group,

2 there were no combat elements. And in the course of the aggression, up

3 until the Kumanovo Agreement, we never participated in combat. None of

4 the members of that group and of the garrison command fired a single

5 bullet at anyone. In fact, nobody ever trained their weapons at anyone at

6 all. This is the truth.

7 Q. Let me ask you about that, actually. I remember yesterday -- in

8 fact, you probably remember yourself -- that you were asked if -- if you

9 and your colleagues ever fired a single bullet, and your answer was that

10 you never even pointed a barrel at someone. You remember that answer?

11 A. I remember. And I can say that this was in the period of the

12 aggression, up until the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement.

13 Q. Now, I take it that -- well, if you could just tell the Court,

14 within the garrison and within the group that you commanded, how many

15 soldiers were there, roughly? Soldiers, officers. Can you give us a

16 number, please.

17 A. Well, the strength changed from time to time, and it increased in

18 relation to the initial period, but it was between 100 and 150 people.

19 Q. And I take it that you yourself and, indeed, the other officers

20 were armed during the conflict. Is that right?

21 A. Yes. All of us in this group were armed. We had the kind of

22 weapons envisaged by the establishment, so not just any weapons we wanted

23 but weapons that were issued in accordance with the peacetime and wartime

24 establishment. That would be mostly rifles and pistols.

25 Q. Did any of your officers or did yourself, did you have

Page 19212

1 semiautomatic rifles, for example, Kalashnikovs?

2 A. We had M-70A rifles.

3 Q. Now, you would agree with me that your garrison and you yourself

4 and your fellow soldiers would have been legitimate military targets. You

5 agree with that, don't you?

6 A. Well, I can't tell you whether we were a legitimate military

7 target. I feel no need to discuss this topic at all. I carried out my

8 duties. I don't know if I was a target of any kind. At that time, it

9 really didn't interest me. I had my tasks and I focused on carrying them

10 out.

11 Q. Well, for someone such as yourself, who has had considerable

12 experience in the army, I take it you know whether -- or I take it you

13 know what a legitimate military target is.

14 A. Fine. Okay. Let's say that I knew that I was a legitimate

15 military target, but not a target for terrorists. War had been declared.

16 Q. Well, let's just stick to the time period when war started. By

17 the same token - and we've had evidence in this trial that the VJ were in

18 conflict with an armed rebellion, or the KLA. You know that existed,

19 don't you?

20 A. The Army of Yugoslavia was not in conflict with the terrorist

21 forces. That is not true. The terrorist forces were in conflict with the

22 army.

23 Q. Well, let's just say that there happened to be -- irrespective of

24 who started a particular action, you would agree with me that the VJ were

25 entitled to fire and to neutralise members of the KLA. Do you agree with

Page 19213

1 that?

2 A. The Army of Yugoslavia was entitled, pursuant to the Constitution

3 and the Law on the Army and the Rules of Service. So its personnel was

4 entitled to open fire not only on terrorists, on Siptar terrorists, but

5 also on everybody else who may have attacked it and fired on it. So any

6 other parties -- had any other parties attacked the army or its personnel,

7 they would get the same response.

8 Q. And so during certain battles or in the conflict between the VJ

9 and the KLA, you would agree with me that it would be to the VJ's

10 advantage if they were to neutralise a KLA terrorist or a -- a KLA company

11 or a battalion. That would be to the VJ's advantage. Would you agree

12 with that? In -- in military terms.

13 A. Well, it would not be in the army's favour if you have a broad

14 look. It would be in favour of the people living there in that area, the

15 people who suffered casualties because of the terrorist attacks. Siptars

16 and Serbs alike. Because a terrorist, as you know all too well, killed

17 many Siptars, and also many innocent Serbs. So it would favour the

18 population, and the army would come last in this.

19 Q. Let's try and -- let's try and reach this point in another way.

20 Let's -- let's take an hypothetical situation. You have two armies, two

21 belligerents fighting a war. Are you with me on this at the moment?

22 A. Yes, I can follow you, and I'm following you very carefully, in

23 fact.

24 Q. And you would agree that the purpose of each of those armies is to

25 defeat their opposite or their enemies. You agree with that?

Page 19214

1 A. I will agree with you partially. I will not agree with you when

2 you say that these are two armies, because this is not true. These were

3 not two armies. There was the Army of Yugoslavia and the Siptar

4 terrorists on the other side.

5 Q. Well, I was actually giving you a hypothetical situation, so let's

6 just stick with two -- two belligerents, two parties fighting against each

7 other.

8 And in that situation, you would agree with me that if one party

9 has the opportunity to take out another member of that -- of their enemy

10 party, then it would be something that would be done and something that

11 would be advantageous to -- to the party firing the shot. Do you agree

12 with that?

13 A. I don't agree with that. You said a lot of things here, and I

14 have really followed you very closely, and I don't know what the question

15 is. You actually asked me several questions. I can answer each of them

16 in turn, if that's what you want me to do.

17 First of all, these are not two sides participating in combat,

18 because one side is not participating in combat at all, and that would be

19 the Army of Yugoslavia.

20 You have combat if you have simultaneous attacks. Yet the army is

21 not participating in this sense. It -- it is attacked by the terrorists,

22 and then it responds, using appropriate assets, to those terrorist

23 attacks. So this is something quite different to what you are trying to

24 put to me in your question. I -- I'm sorry.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva, we don't have the luxury of the time

Page 19215

1 here for a theoretical debate about the rights and wrongs of the means of

2 conflict between parties, the definition of their respective status,

3 depending on whether they're terrorists, freedom fighters, or a -- a

4 military organisation. And we found, I think, in general here that

5 hypothetical questions are not well received by the witnesses who appear

6 before us. They are generally suspicious of them and prefer to deal with

7 the facts of the situation.

8 So I wonder if you could concentrate more on dealing with

9 questions that deal with the facts that this witness can perhaps assist us

10 with.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. I'm guided. I was actually

12 trying to get to my eventual question.

13 Q. Colonel, you told the Court that you yourself and your fellow

14 soldiers never fired a shot.

15 A. That's not correct. I didn't say "never." I just said "in the

16 course of the aggression." Up to the Kumanovo Agreement.

17 Q. And you also told the Court that during the conflict, there were

18 KLA establishments within Pristina, and you spoke about terrorist attacks

19 in Pristina. You remember that?

20 A. Could you please repeat your question.

21 Q. You gave evidence yesterday that there were KLA formations in the

22 area of Pristina and that there were allegedly terrorist attacks in

23 Pristina. You remember giving that evidence?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it really your evidence, Colonel, that you and your other 100

Page 19216

1 soldiers that were armed never fired a shot at these KLA terrorists in

2 Pristina? Is that what you're telling the Court?

3 A. No. What I'm trying to tell the Court is what I want to tell the

4 Court, and what I'm trying to say is that up to the Kumanovo Agreement,

5 not a single member of the Kumanovo garrison [as interpreted] fired a

6 single bullet. This is the third or fourth time I've been repeating this.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: The term "Kumanovo garrison" has appeared in the

8 transcript. Was that the name of your garrison?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. What I was saying: Up

10 to the Kumanovo Agreement, that is, the 10th of June, 1999.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I appreciate entirely. And that also appears

12 in the transcript. But it goes on to say: "Not a single member of the

13 Kumanovo garrison fired a single bullet." I take it that wasn't a name

14 given to the Pristina garrison that you were in temporary command of.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's an error, an evident

16 error.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... For the

18 transcript. Thank you very much.

19 Mr. Sachdeva.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


22 Q. So what I understand is that from the onset of the conflict, when

23 NATO started its campaign, up until the 9th or 10th of June, in 1999, you

24 and your fellow soldiers never fired a single shot at KLA groups within

25 Pristina. Is that your evidence?

Page 19217

1 A. My evidence is that from the beginning of the NATO aggression, not

2 campaign, and air-strikes, up until the Kumanovo Agreement, not a single

3 member of the command of the garrison and the group I was in command of

4 fired a single bullet at anybody.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, you also told us yesterday that

6 there were almost daily attacks -- terrorist attacks in Pristina before

7 the aggression.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say that.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you also saying that none of your garrison

10 fired shots in connection with these attacks?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as you were able to see,

12 Your Honour, I became the garrison commander as of the 30th of March. The

13 aggression began on the 24th.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: So you can't speak to the earlier period.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can, but in a different

16 context, because I was not the garrison commander at the time.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please -- please don't -- please don't try to mess

18 us about, Mr. Filipovic. The question is about your personal knowledge of

19 the use of weapons prior to the 23rd of March. Now, forget your exact

20 status. What is your evidence about the use of weapons by members of that

21 garrison in connection with KLA attacks prior to the commencement of the

22 NATO aggression?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the NATO aggression began,

24 there were numerous attacks, both on civilians and on members of the army

25 in the general area of Pristina. For example, on the 15th of March, there

Page 19218

1 was an attack near Vranjevac --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, deal with the question. Tell me

3 whether or not the garrison fired shots in connection with any attack at

4 all. Yes or no?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware that anyone fired

6 from the garrison. I am not aware of that.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... It's

8 straightforward. I don't need any more detail. If I want more detail,

9 I'll ask for it.

10 Mr. Sachdeva.

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. So with the KLA that were in the town and these KLA groups, what

13 in fact did the army do with respect to these groups?

14 A. The terrorist groups in the general area of Pristina launched

15 attacks both on citizens and on members of the army in the general area.

16 In the town itself, I did not see a single terrorist carrying terrorist

17 insignia of any sort. They may have been terrorists, but we were unable

18 to recognize them in the town, because terrorists are terrorists,

19 according to what they do. But they did not wear any insignia in town.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, your evidence yesterday was that

21 there were daily attacks by terrorists in Pristina before the aggression.

22 You were able to tell us yesterday that terrorists were attacking. What

23 Mr. Sachdeva wants to hear is what the army did about it. Can you not

24 tell us that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nothing. For example, in

Page 19219

1 March, two policemen were killed in the Pristina neighbourhood of

2 Imsirovo. Four policemen were killed in the centre of Pristina. One was

3 of Siptar ethnicity, and he was wounded. And the army did nothing,

4 because it was not tasked with doing anything about that in town. It was

5 other structures that responded, but there was nothing they could do

6 because the terrorists were wearing civilian clothes and they fled the

7 scene of the crime. And there are many other similar examples.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.


10 Q. Colonel, I just want to talk to you briefly about your -- your

11 role in the garrison. I understand that you were in charge of matters

12 relating to housing and -- and personnel. Is that right?

13 A. Well, you see, my duty as the garrison commander is prescribed in

14 the Rules of Service of the Army of Yugoslavia. My duties are prescribed

15 for peacetime, and as a provision, in the Rules of Service, saying that in

16 wartime all the duties remain the same. I hope you have a copy of these

17 rules, and there you can see all the tasks. I can remember and enumerate

18 many of them, but I may not be able to do so in the exact order that

19 they're listed in the Rules of Service. If you need me to tell you, I

20 will.

21 Q. Colonel, I think my question was relatively simple, but let me

22 just ask you this --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, experience tells us here that it is

24 very unwise to ask a question which has clearly been answered in a

25 straightforward way in the evidence in chief just to set the scene. It

Page 19220

1 doesn't work. So it's much better to get straight to the issue that you

2 want to ask about, and then you can go back and clarify the sort of formal

3 part, if it turns out to be necessary.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm guided, Mr. President.

5 Q. Colonel, the information with respect to the strength of the

6 Pristina Corps, in terms of personnel, I take it that you would regularly

7 brief or at least brief the commander, General -- General Lazarevic. Is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. And I take it that you would do this at these meetings that you

11 spoke about, the collegium meetings, and also the meetings that you had

12 within the Pristina Corps during the conflict. Is that right?

13 A. I don't recall all those meetings in detail, but I remember many

14 things. I informed him of everything that was of interest. I did not

15 keep quiet about anything.

16 Q. With respect to the strength of the Pristina Corps in terms of

17 personnel and manpower, if General Lazarevic sought information, you would

18 be the person, you would be that point person; is that right?

19 A. Well, no. I'll tell you why. Because I was assistant commander

20 for personnel affairs. It was my task to inform him of professional

21 members. With respect to soldiers and conscripts, that was done by

22 another department, which was called Department for Mobilisation and

23 Replenishment, and it was Lieutenant-Colonel Simovic was at the head of

24 that. I had other information also, but my primary task was professional

25 members, which means officers, non-commissioned officers, and contract

Page 19221

1 soldiers.

2 Q. But in addition to those groups, you would also know the -- the

3 amount of nonprofessional officers and -- and other such volunteers; isn't

4 that right?

5 A. Yes, for the most part.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for Prosecution Exhibit 2004 to be

7 brought up on the screen, please.

8 Q. Colonel, this is a document from the Pristina Corps Command dated

9 the 13th of April, 1999. And you'll see it's a report, a very urgent

10 report to the 3rd Army and the Supreme Staff Command. Do you see that

11 there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it has various subsections. And if I could ask you to go --

14 if I could ask to go to page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.

15 And you'll see, General -- Colonel, at the bottom part of the

16 document you will see a section entitled "Effective manning level." Do

17 you see that there? It's under section 3.

18 A. I see.

19 Q. And you will see under 3.1 that it is reported to the 3rd Army and

20 to the Supreme Command Staff that the corps - and that is, I suggest, the

21 Pristina Corps - is manned by 61.892 men. Do you see that written there?

22 A. Yes, I see that.

23 Q. And you see further along that section that this figure is broken

24 down into subcategories; namely, the amount of officers, the amount of

25 non-commissioned officers, regular soldiers, and volunteers. Do you see

Page 19222

1 that?

2 A. Yes, I see that too.

3 Q. So I take it that this means that the Pristina Corps had, in terms

4 of military personnel, had almost 62.000 men. Is that right?

5 A. That's right, with reinforcements.

6 Q. And does that figure in this document, does that, with respect to

7 your role within the Pristina Corps, does that figure appear to you to be

8 accurate?

9 A. Well, to understand this better, the Pristina Corps, in terms of

10 war establishment, had 30 to 34 thousand members in total. This figure

11 here relates to the Pristina Corps with re-subordinated units. The corps

12 itself in the wartime establishment had between 30 and 35 thousand

13 members.

14 Q. Well, you'll see it that says 54.106 soldiers. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes, I see that too.

16 Q. And those soldiers -- those soldiers are within the Pristina

17 Corps, aren't they?

18 A. But that also -- no, those soldiers were in the Pristina Corps

19 with the re-subordinated units. That would be the correct answer.

20 Q. Well, you don't see anything here about re-subordination, do you?

21 A. Well, it's not mentioned here, but it's implied.

22 Q. And it is reported by General Lazarevic to the 3rd Army and the

23 Supreme Command Staff that the Pristina Corps has 62.000 -- roughly 62.000

24 soldiers. Isn't that right?

25 A. Could I please see the signature, if that's possible, at the

Page 19223

1 bottom of this document.

2 Q. Yes, we can go to the last page, please.

3 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when this witness was

6 asked to establish the authenticity of another document by the same organ,

7 I was not allowed to do that, as it was not within the witness's sphere of

8 competence. That was the 3rd combat report of the Pristina Corps. And I

9 think the number of the exhibit was ... If you'll allow me.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: That was you trying to set the document up, was it

11 not? In this instance, Mr. Filipovic sounds suspicious of the document

12 and wants to see whether it's authentic. The situation is different.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't want so much to see whether

14 it was authentic as to see who compiled it, because this document was

15 compiled by the organ for recruitment and mobilisation, not the one headed

16 by me. That was the organ headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Simovic. That was

17 the reason I wanted to see what the initials were.


19 Q. Colonel, would you agree with me, though, that this is a report to

20 the 3rd Army and to the Supreme Command Staff about the effective manpower

21 of the Pristina Corps, irrespective of whether units have been

22 subordinated?

23 A. You can see that from the heading, to whom it's addressed and by

24 whom.

25 Q. I take it that you agree with my question.

Page 19224

1 A. I agree.

2 Q. And when I asked you earlier about this figure of 61.892 men, you

3 mentioned reinforcements. What do you mean by "reinforcements"?

4 A. Yes. I basically abide by that. These are figures expressing the

5 numbers of the Pristina Corps with the attached units, and these are the

6 following units: First of all, the units of the Pristina Military

7 District, the units of the 202nd Rear Base or logistics base, and some

8 other smaller units. These units and the war composition of the Pristina

9 Corps make up the numbers that can be seen in this document.

10 Q. Now, I'd like to go to Exhibit 5D00348, please.

11 Colonel, this is the exhibit that you -- you commented upon in

12 examination-in-chief, where it details your role and the role of the

13 garrison. You remember this document?

14 A. Yes, I remember.

15 Q. And in this document, it lists various departments that the

16 garrison would comprise of. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There is nothing in this document that suggests that matters

19 related to procurement or supplies would be within the competence of the

20 garrison. Do you agree with that?

21 A. I can't agree with that, because this is an organisational

22 document. It gives only the framework and the composition of that group

23 as a whole; whereas, the tasks are formulated at a later stage.

24 Q. Sorry --

25 A. And not just that, but even before that. It's well known what

Page 19225

1 their tasks are, because that's provided for in many previous documents.

2 However, this document only deals with the organisation, what units will

3 enter into this group, into its composition.

4 Q. So you agree with me that in this document there is no mention of

5 procurement or supplies.

6 A. No, I can't. Many other jobs are not mentioned. Now one should

7 mention whether the orchestra is to play or not and what they are doing?

8 That would take us to extremes. This is an organisational document, and

9 the tasks follow from other previous documents and tasks and duties.

10 Q. I'm not interested in what kind of document this is. I'm simply

11 asking you to agree with me that there is no mention of procurement or

12 supplies in this document. Do you agree with that or not?

13 A. I'm sorry, but when you ask me like that, I cannot agree with you,

14 because it doesn't say here that they should have three meals a day but we

15 did have three meals a day. I apologise.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, the question is very simple. You

17 mustn't be suspicious of what complications might be created because you

18 answer a simple question with a simple answer. You're being asked whether

19 this document actually refers to procurement or supplies; yes or no?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this document [Realtime

21 transcript read in error "detention unit"] does not. The document itself.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 Mr. Sachdeva.

24 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Colonel, earlier on in your testimony you spoke about -- I see my

Page 19226

1 colleague is on his feet.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I believe the -- the transcript says

4 "detention unit" as I believe the witness says "document."

5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.


7 Q. Colonel, earlier on in your testimony you spoke about the military

8 court and the prosecutor's office. And we can see from this document that

9 it is contained within the garrison. You remember answering a question

10 about that?

11 A. Yes. I remember speaking about the military prosecutor's office

12 and the military court.

13 Q. And you also said that the work of the court and the prosecutor

14 was independent and that you wouldn't have been privy to the substantive

15 workings of that court. Is that right?

16 A. I said that the work of the court and the work of the military

17 prosecutor's office were independent in their work.

18 Q. And I take it that within your role in the garrison you weren't

19 aware of the details of any cases that would have been submitted to the

20 court. Is that right?

21 A. No, that's not right. I was aware of some cases. For example, I

22 was aware of a case because I was summoned to participate as a juror. It

23 had to do with theft.

24 Q. Was that the only case you were aware of, because you were

25 participating in it?

Page 19227

1 A. Well, a lot of time has elapsed. I think that was the only case

2 in which I played the role of a jury member. There may have been some

3 others. I can't recall exactly. But I do know that the members of the

4 garrison were very often summoned to participate as jury members in some

5 cases before the military court of the Pristina Corps.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 MR. SACHDEVA: May I ask just one more question?

8 Q. Let me put it this way. When cases --

9 A. Go ahead.

10 Q. Generally when cases were submitted to the court, in other words,

11 the evidence, the documents, it wouldn't be -- as a matter of course, you

12 wouldn't be reviewing those cases. Am I right?

13 A. No, no, no, no. I don't even know how many cases were filed

14 before the court or what the outcome was. This information was not

15 available to me, nor did I interfere in that, nor was that my task.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: We can take the break now, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: You've departed from the issue of the procurement

18 of supplies, have you?

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, actually not.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. That's fine. Thank you.

21 Mr. Filipovic, we need a break at this stage. That will be for 20

22 minutes. Could you leave the courtroom with the usher, please, and we'll

23 see you again at five minutes past 4.00.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

Page 19228

1 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

2 [The witness takes the stand]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Colonel, I take it that during the -- during the conflict, during

6 the war, you wouldn't know all the names of all the reserve officers that

7 were attached to the Pristina Corps Command. Am I right?

8 A. Well, this is what my answer is: I knew all the officers of the

9 command of the Pristina Corps. As for those who were assigned

10 temporarily, I did not know all of them and I did not know all of their

11 names. So, please, this is the category I'm talking about, temporarily

12 assigned to work there. That is so, strictly speaking.

13 Q. So when you say you knew all the officers of the command of the

14 Pristina Corps, I take it you would not know -- and you're answering my

15 question in the affirmative -- you would not know all the names of all the

16 reserve officers within that corps; is that right?

17 A. No, I certainly didn't know that.

18 Q. So then you would agree with the possibility -- that there is a

19 possibility that the reserve officer called Tijanic, you may not have

20 known whether that person existed. Is that right?

21 A. No. No. This is a question of the corps command. If we are

22 talking about the corps command, that is something different.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: We seem to have confused language here. The

24 witness is quite clear that he knows the identity of all officers in the

25 corps command except those temporarily assigned there, which is not

Page 19229

1 necessarily a reserve officer. I don't know where the concept of reserve

2 comes into this. That's quite distinct from claiming he knows everyone

3 within the Pristina Corps. And it's important that you make that

4 distinction when you're addressing him.

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I thought I made the distinction

6 with respect to the corps command, but let me ask you --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: No. If you look at line 23 and 24, you'll see why

8 the witness answered the way he did.


10 Q. So would you know the names of all the reserve officers within the

11 corps command?

12 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know -- well, as far as I

13 know, the corps command, well, from this distance -- I don't really think

14 that it had any reserve officers. I'm not quite certain of that, but I am

15 more certain that the command of the corps did not have reserve officers.

16 Q. Well, assuming that they did, you wouldn't know the names of all

17 the reserve officers. Yes or no?

18 A. Well, from this distance, I cannot give you a yes-or-no answer.

19 Then, at that time, I knew everybody. And I was supposed to know

20 everybody, at that.

21 Q. Where was the procurement and supply department? Where was it

22 located?

23 A. Well, it should have been in the logistics organ, the corps

24 command.

25 Q. And the logistics organ was located where? Is that the 202nd

Page 19230

1 logistics base?

2 A. No. No, no. The logistics organ existed in the command of the

3 Pristina Corps. The 202nd base is something separate. The corps command

4 had its own logistics organ.

5 Q. Who was the head of the procurement and supplies section during

6 the time of the conflict?

7 A. I don't know who was the head, and I don't know whether that is

8 exactly what it was called; however, Colonel Petkovic, Bratislav Petkovic,

9 headed the logistics organ.

10 Q. You don't know who was responsible for procurement and supplies

11 within the corps command. Is that what you're telling the Court?

12 A. Oh, I don't know. These are internal organisational duties.

13 Q. So I take it, then, that if there was somebody called Tijanic that

14 worked for the procurement and supplies section, you would not necessarily

15 know that person. Is that right?

16 A. Since my organ dealt with personnel matters, all documents

17 starting with dossiers ended up at my organ, so I knew all the first and

18 last names from the corps command.

19 Q. Please tell the Court who was the head of the procurement and

20 supplies section during the conflict.

21 A. I don't know that, and I don't know whether such an organ existed.

22 There was a logistics organ.

23 Q. Now, you said that you had meetings with members of the corps

24 command on a -- on a regular basis, and you also attended collegium

25 meetings. Just tell me, who were -- who was present at those meetings

Page 19231

1 when you attended?

2 A. Well, as I said yesterday, I attended collegium meetings, that is

3 to say, of the collegium of the corps commander, up until the 30th of

4 March. After that, from time to time, I went to the commander for

5 briefings.

6 At those meetings where I was present, at the collegium of the

7 corps commander, all members of the collegium attended, all members of the

8 collegium of the corps commander.

9 Now, who were these members? That is established in a document,

10 very specifically. I can mention their names, but during -- over time,

11 the names changed, depending on who had what duty. But I know the

12 organisational entities, who the members of the collegium were, and I can

13 tell you that, if you're interested.

14 Q. Who were the members of the collegium? Yes. Please -- please

15 tell us that.

16 A. Well, as far as I can remember, in addition to the commander, the

17 members of the collegium were the other -- the following persons ex

18 officio: The Chief of Staff of the corps, the assistant commander of the

19 corps for information and morale, the assistant commander of the corps for

20 logistics, the assistant commander of the corps for security matters, the

21 assistant commander of the corps for personnel and housing affairs, and I

22 don't know. I may have omitted someone or maybe I've mentioned them all.

23 Those were the persons involved -- or rather, the persons who headed these

24 functions were members of the collegium.

25 Q. And from the 24th of March throughout the conflict, how often did

Page 19232

1 these meetings take place?

2 A. From the 24th of March, 1999 and onwards, I don't know how the

3 collegium meetings of the commander went, but I know that I had meetings

4 that I attended in order to present a briefing. Sometimes it was every

5 seven days, sometimes every ten days or so, and sometimes perhaps even

6 more often, depending on the needs involved.

7 Q. And you also talked about other meetings; in other words, not

8 collegium meetings, where you would brief the corps commander. Were these

9 meetings just between yourself and the corps commander, or were there

10 other members of the corps command present as well?

11 A. As far as I can remember, most often the commander would call me

12 to the command post to issue me an assignment or for me to brief him about

13 the state of affairs in the garrison command and in my group. Most often

14 I was the only person in attendance.

15 Perhaps it may have been somebody else too, but I didn't notice.

16 For the most part, it was only me.

17 Q. And you spoke about the people that would be attending the

18 collegium meetings. For example, the Chief of Staff and the assistant

19 commander for information and morale. What was the name of the assistant

20 commander for information and morale?

21 A. The assistant commander for information and morale was Colonel

22 Mirko Starcevic, and then Colonel Dragisa Marinkovic took over from him.

23 Colonel Starcevic went to a new duty; he became assistant commander for

24 morale in the 3rd Army.

25 Q. How about the assistant commander for security affairs? What

Page 19233

1 would his -- what was his name?

2 A. The assistant commander for security was Momir Stojanovic,

3 father's name Bogoljub.

4 Q. Now, at these meetings where you attended, I take it that each

5 person responsible for their department would brief General Lazarevic on

6 the situation within their department. Is that right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And I take it that General Lazarevic would in turn brief the corps

9 command about the state of the -- state of the war and the -- the

10 efficiency or the effectiveness of the Pristina Corps Command operations.

11 Is that also right?

12 A. Well, things developed along those lines.

13 Q. And you also said in evidence that at these meetings there would

14 be discussions or there would be reminders that international humanitarian

15 law should be adhered to. Am I right in that?

16 A. Yes, you are right.

17 Q. And you said that these reminders would come -- would be made

18 every day.

19 A. Well, very often. Very often. From this time distance, I cannot

20 say whether it was actually every day, but it was that often that it

21 seemed like every day.

22 Q. Was it at every occasion when the corps command met?

23 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly whether it was absolutely every

24 occasion, but it was very often.

25 Q. And you also said that there was foreign media and you were able

Page 19234

1 to through the foreign media establish what was happening within Pristina

2 and also within Kosovo. Is that right?

3 A. Well, it's not right. It is not right. We had our own system of

4 information in the corps command, and foreign media for the most part we

5 did not follow. We did not listen to that. Only sometimes if someone

6 would get some information from that. However, our system of information

7 was based on the system of information of the army and our state.

8 Q. When you had --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered, and in

11 my modest view, there was no foundation or basis for that kind of a

12 question to be put by the Prosecutor. Having listened to this witness's

13 testimony yesterday very carefully, I did not ever hear him say that his

14 information was based on the foreign media. But he has already responded,

15 so thank you.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 Mr. Sachdeva.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 I just for the record would note that yesterday the witness did

20 talk about foreign correspondence criss-crossing.



23 Q. Colonel, during these meetings, I take it that there were

24 discussions about allegations of crimes that may have been committed by

25 members of the VJ. Did those discussions ever take place?

Page 19235

1 A. I've already told you that I was a member of the collegium until

2 the 30th of March. It is possible that that was discussed too. From this

3 time distance, I cannot remember that. But for the most part, in view of

4 my functional duty, I focused on personnel matters. And that is what I

5 was most interested in and that is what I paid attention to; namely, what

6 my own tasks were from that point of view and what I was supposed to do

7 about that. The rest was very important, but it did not preoccupy my

8 attention.

9 Q. Yes. I didn't actually ask what was your focus, but you agree

10 that at the meetings, at some of the meetings that you attended,

11 allegations of crimes committed by the VJ were discussed within that

12 group. Is that right?

13 A. Possibly. From this time distance, I really cannot remember.

14 Q. And what kind of allegations were discussed? Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. Well, for the most part, organisational problems were discussed.

17 Our tasks related to defence, related to the combat training of units, for

18 taking measures in relation to morale, discipline, and order, then various

19 personnel matters, and many other topical tasks.

20 Q. I appreciate what you're saying; however, I want to concentrate on

21 the discussion regarding allegations of crimes committed by the VJ. And

22 what I want to know is what kind of information, what kind of allegations

23 were discussed at the meetings or at a meeting that you attended?

24 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

Page 19236

1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we have

2 already got a clear answer to this question. This is the second or third

3 time that the question is being repeated. Thank you.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you say to that?

5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I respectfully disagree. My -- I

6 submit that I have a basis to ask a further question about the subject

7 matter of the allegations, considering the witness did say that -- that

8 these allegations were discussed or there was a possibility that these

9 allegations were discussed.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, that's as high as it goes, possibly. However,

11 questions of this nature often elicit further information, so please

12 proceed with this question. If it's unproductive, then move to something

13 else.

14 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm guided, Mr. President.

15 Q. Colonel, leaving aside what was usually discussed at these

16 meetings, with respect, as you said, to -- to other measures related to

17 morale and discipline, I want you to cast your mind back to the

18 information that may have been discussed about allegations of crimes

19 committed by the VJ. Can you tell the Court what kind of information was

20 discussed.

21 A. I do not remember anything like -- anything like that. I know

22 that many terrorist acts were discussed in which our units and members of

23 the corps sustained losses. But as for these allegations that you are

24 asking me about, I really cannot remember.

25 Q. Do you remember that there were reminders of -- reminders to

Page 19237

1 adhere to international humanitarian law. Why were these reminders made

2 at the meetings?

3 A. At those meetings -- now, this is my assumption, my conclusion --

4 the people were reminded so that it be always at the forefront of their

5 mind, so that the officers could inform their subordinates about that.

6 And the logic behind it was probably that if you keep drumming something

7 in, repeating something, then it tends to stick in people's minds more

8 than if you never discuss it.

9 Q. I suggest to you, Colonel, that these reminders were made because

10 in fact the VJ were indeed committing crimes throughout Pristina and

11 Kosovo. Isn't that right?

12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is absolutely not true --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Cepic.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what the foundation is

17 for this claim that is now put to the witness.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The foundation is the inference that could be drawn

19 from the regular reference to the obligation to comply with international

20 humanitarian law. There is a basis for the question. So please continue,

21 Mr. Sachdeva.


23 Q. Colonel, I don't think you answered my question, or at least it's

24 not recorded in the transcript. What is your answer to that question?

25 A. Could you please repeat it. I would kindly ask you.

Page 19238

1 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the reminders to adhere to

2 international humanitarian law were made because the VJ were indeed

3 committing crimes throughout Pristina and Kosovo and Metohija. What do

4 you say to that?

5 A. Well, I can say not only that I don't agree with that. I can say

6 that this is not so. Particularly when it comes to the town of Pristina.

7 And it is not correct if you look at the whole of this area.

8 Q. Your evidence is that there were no crimes, no violations of

9 international humanitarian law in Pristina during the conflict?

10 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that if crimes were

11 committed - and I don't know that they were, because I didn't hear about

12 that - they were not committed by the army. And in particular, not in the

13 town of Pristina. I mentioned Pristina because I am really familiar with

14 the situation there; I know it best.

15 Q. So your evidence is that no member of the Pristina Corps within

16 Pristina committed crimes.

17 A. I am claiming here that such crimes were not committed by the army

18 in Pristina and that I don't know of those crimes.

19 Q. What crimes are you talking about?

20 A. I don't know. I am not talking about crimes. You are talking

21 about crimes. Yesterday and today I spoke about the crimes committed by

22 the terrorists. And as to what crimes you're talking about, I don't know.

23 Please do ask me.

24 Q. Do you know of crimes that were committed in Pristina by either

25 members of the police or the army?

Page 19239

1 A. I don't know of any such crimes.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned yesterday that General Lazarevic -- you met

3 with General Lazarevic on the 27th of April, 1999. And you -- you said

4 that you had asked him to come and visit the garrison. You remember that?

5 A. I remember that.

6 Q. And you said that he was not able to come that evening because he

7 was busy. Do you know why he was busy?

8 A. Well, I really couldn't tell you that, because I didn't know that

9 at the time and I don't know it now. And the commander is not duty-bound

10 to tell his subordinates why he was busy, but of course if he wants to do

11 so, he can.

12 Q. And at some point you went with General Lazarevic to the Grand

13 Hotel. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, but that was on the 28th.

15 Q. And when you went there, who else was present in the Grand Hotel?

16 A. Well, I can't really remember all the persons who were there in

17 the Grand Hotel. I know that there was the chairwoman of the Kolo Srpskih

18 Sestara, Mrs. Pavlovic. I think -- I'm not sure, that there were some

19 people from the media. I think that Colonel Starcevic was also there.

20 Perhaps some other people too. But I didn't really try and remember that.

21 These are the people that I remember, and that would be it.

22 Q. How often would you go to the Grand Hotel during the conflict?

23 A. Well, during the conflict, apart from that one occasion, as far as

24 I can recall, never again.

25 Q. But parts of the Pristina Corps were located in the Grand Hotel,

Page 19240

1 weren't they?

2 A. No. Only those elements that I told you about were actually

3 stationed in the Grand Hotel, and that would be the information centre and

4 that was the place where mail was exchanged. And the other floors were

5 used by the Sloga hotel company from Pristina. It is possible that those

6 premises were used by some other companies that actually rented it from

7 Sloga, but I don't know about that.

8 Q. If we could go back to Exhibit 5D00348, please.

9 And, Colonel, this is the document with respect to your garrison,

10 which we discussed earlier. And at the bottom of the page, in the

11 penultimate paragraph, it says, and I'll read it:

12 "As necessitated and in keeping with the situation, accommodate

13 the group in the general area of -- of the Pristina municipality, the

14 municipal court, and the premises of the PrK command, including the Grand

15 Hotel."

16 And my question is: What part of the group that is listed here

17 was accommodated in the Grand Hotel?

18 A. Well, let me explain this to you. When --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you explain it, would you read that

20 paragraph, please. Could you read it aloud to us, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.

22 "The group is to be deployed according to the need and in

23 accordance with the situation in the broader sector of the Pristina

24 Municipal Assembly, the municipal court, and the building of the PrK

25 Command with the Grand Hotel."

Page 19241

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And you were going to explain?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is an area that forms a

3 triangle. The corners are the municipal assembly, the municipal court,

4 and the Grand Hotel, the PrK Command. This is the way in which an area

5 for the deployment both of units and of commands is defined in the

6 military. So the command -- the commander gave me the task to, in this

7 area that is bordered by those -- those points, deploy my command; and

8 that's what I did. I did it in such a way that I really deployed them in

9 this triangle, but no elements were deployed in any of the buildings that

10 are used to define this triangular area; in other words, they were not

11 deployed in the Grand Hotel, in the municipal assembly, because they were

12 housed in a building adjacent to the municipal assembly and some were also

13 housed in a hut. So it was -- they were deployed in this area as it was

14 defined, not in the buildings themselves.


16 Q. So from these three subgroups, including the command group, the

17 military court, and the group of the operations centre with the department

18 for air space situation reporting, none of those groups were deployed in

19 the Grand Hotel. Is that what you're saying?

20 A. I'm saying that none of these groups, none of these elements were

21 in the Grand Hotel. Moreover, in accordance with this phrase "in

22 accordance with the need," that -- in accordance with the basic concept of

23 the commander, I deployed some elements to an -- to an area 50 metres away

24 from this area, in the basement of the sports centre Boro i Ramiz, close

25 to the corps command building but not in the buildings themselves. This

Page 19242

1 is close to the Pristina stadium, the football club Pristina. That was

2 the air surveillance element.

3 Q. And in addition to the Pristina Corps Command, there was also a

4 military battalion --

5 A. Not next to but ... No. No, no battalion. There was no battalion

6 here.

7 Q. But there was a Military Police Battalion in Pristina, wasn't

8 there?

9 A. The Military Police Battalion existed as a unit of the Pristina

10 Corps, and after the aggression started, in accordance with its own plan,

11 it was deployed in an area defined by those plans. And for the most part,

12 I was not aware of the location, but I do know that its task was inter

13 alia to secure the corps command post.

14 Q. And did the Military Battalion -- Military Police Battalion also

15 provide security to the garrison?

16 A. As far as I know, the garrison -- or as far as the garrison

17 facilities are concerned, no.

18 Q. And what was the strength of this Military Police Battalion, if

19 you know?

20 A. Well, as I sit here, I can say it was somewhere between 350 and

21 400 people.

22 Q. And I take it that all of these people were armed as well.

23 A. They were armed.

24 Q. Now, you remember yesterday we discussed -- or it was discussed

25 about the artillery from Vranjevac being fired at the village of Koljevac

Page 19243

1 [phoen]. Do you remember that?

2 A. The village of Kojlovica. That's what you were referring to.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I remember that it was discussed yesterday.

5 Q. And in relation to the town of Pristina, it's correct, isn't it,

6 that the -- these two villages, Vranjevac and Kojlovica are situated on an

7 elevated position.

8 A. Vranjevac itself is partly in the low grounds and some are in --

9 on the high ground. But Vranjevac as a whole is a residential area and --

10 between one and another house it is not more than 5 metres. The streets

11 are narrow, maybe 2 to 3 metres wide.

12 The village of Kojlovica is not on the high ground.

13 Q. But compared to the centre of town, it would be elevated, both

14 those places. Isn't that right?

15 A. Not -- not Kojlovica, no.

16 Q. And from the centre of town or from the area of -- of Pristina

17 town, it would be possible to -- to see the village of Vranjevac, would it

18 not?

19 A. From the centre of Pristina -- well, depending on where you are in

20 the centre, because there are quite a few tall buildings in the centre.

21 It -- you have a line of sight to just parts of Vranjevac, not the whole

22 of Vranjevac.

23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I actually would like to show the

24 witness a map that was marked by one of the witnesses in the Prosecution

25 case, and I ask leave to do that because it was not on my initial list.

Page 19244

1 And the reason why I had not put it on my list was that I did not

2 anticipate the detail that my learned friend would go into with respect to

3 the markings of where her house was.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection as a matter of

6 principle, because my humble opinion now is that an exception is becoming

7 a rule now.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that doesn't assist the Chamber. If you

9 would address the issue that's advanced that because you went into some

10 detail in this, it's only right that the evidence that we've heard about

11 the matter should be put to the witness. And as a general principle of

12 fairness, it's even a question of being fair to the -- the witness, as

13 well as to the interests of justice and to the witness who previously gave

14 evidence here. Now, what do you have to say to that point?

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I am not opposed to the map being

16 shown. My colleague gave me a map that was not announced earlier as an

17 exhibit, and I agree with him that it might be exhibited during the

18 testimony of witness Filipovic. I agreed to that. But this objection of

19 mine was submitted as a matter of principle, as I have already said. As

20 for this map, the map that I was given a hard copy of, I do not oppose

21 that because -- although it does not have an IC number at all.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You're -- well, does it have a number and is it

23 already part of the process?

24 MR. SACHDEVA: The ICU map that I want to show is -- is indeed --

25 does have a number. It's IC 15.

Page 19245

1 But my learned friend is right that --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: No. Just -- just a second.

3 Now, the principle on which you're standing is what?

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're talking about two

5 maps, and I agreed that my colleague show a map that is unmarked and does

6 not have an IC number. That is what we agreed upon before he started and

7 I'm not opposed to that. I fully agree to any other proposals related to

8 Pristina maps, irrespective of when.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So what is the objection in principle that you

10 take?

11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw any -- my objection, if

12 any. Maybe I misunderstood what was going on. Maybe Mr. Fila wishes to

13 answer something.

14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will add only in one

15 sentence what the concern of the Defence is.

16 As you know, I never objected to any documents submitted by the

17 Prosecution. What concerns me and us is that your rule that when the oath

18 is taken, the documents have to be stated, the ones that are going to be

19 used in cross-examination have been -- has been subjected to many

20 exceptions. It's not the exceptions that I'm worried about, but by the

21 waste of time. If anybody's interested in time here - in addition to

22 yourself, Your Honour, of course - it is me; I hate wasting time. There

23 is this unnecessary discussion about every such document, translated, not

24 translated, is needed, is not needed, surprised, not surprised. Why are

25 we surprised by anything at this stage? I would only be surprised if they

Page 19246

1 were to give up on Sainovic altogether. I cannot be surprised by anything

2 else. We've been through everything so far. That is what I wanted to say

3 by way of a caution. That is what we discussed amongst ourselves. That

4 is what we talked to the colleagues. I don't really want to waste time.

5 And now you've wasted time on account of me, too. We've lost time on

6 account of that. Thank you.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that sounds to me more like a expression of

8 frustration rather than a carefully formulated legal objection.

9 Mr. Cepic would have a foundation for an objection in principle if

10 he could demonstrate to us that the Prosecution ought to have foreseen the

11 detailed exploration of the relative locations of Kojlovica and Vranjevac.

12 The Prosecution tell us that they could not foresee that from the notice

13 given and sought therefore, in fairness to all involved, to present the

14 map which was marked by an earlier witness on precisely this point.

15 Now, if there is no reason to object on that basis, then all our

16 time has been wasted by a frivolous objection based on a principle that I

17 am yet unable to -- to divine.

18 So we shall further avoid the waste of any further time and

19 proceed with the Prosecution putting this document to the witness.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Sachdeva.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 If I could first ask for the ICU -- the -- the map that was marked

23 by the witness, which I recall was IC 148. If that could be brought up on

24 the screen, please.

25 Q. Colonel, yesterday you marked this map and -- and figure number 2

Page 19247

1 was -- was what you said was the location of Mrs. Bala's house. You

2 recall that?

3 A. What was the house?

4 Q. It's the house in Lapski Street, number 30 Lapski Street.

5 A. I marked Lapska Street; although, I -- I underline that once

6 again. I said yesterday that this is a very poor map for orientation.

7 For such a serious occasion -- I do apologise to the Trial Chamber, but

8 this is really a caricature of a map. I have some maps with me, I have

9 some topographic maps, too, and the rest. We'll try with this one.

10 There's no problem with that. I put all the circles there. That's true.

11 But it is a very poor map for this kind of orientation.

12 Q. And the evidence that the witness gave herself in court -- I'm

13 going to show you where she marked her house.

14 If I could have IC 15, please. Is it possible to have them

15 side-by-side?

16 Now, you would agree, Witness, that the circle that Mrs. Bala had

17 marked as her residence is just above the -- the bazaar, the market? Do

18 you agree with that?

19 A. This circle that was drawn here was drawn here but not by the old

20 market. What is very important here is the old market. This is no old

21 market. This is the current market, before the aggression and during the

22 aggression.

23 Q. Is --

24 A. It's a completely different market. The old market is a

25 completely different market. But never mind. Even if she lived there,

Page 19248

1 even from that place, she can see Vranjevac even less -- or rather, I beg

2 your pardon, Kojlovica. Even less. She can see Kojlovica even less from

3 there.

4 Q. Do you agree with the possibility that if she was on the top of

5 her building, that being a five-storey building, that her view would be

6 enhanced with respect to Vranjevac?

7 A. From the top of the building, it is only logical that there is a

8 better view than from the ground level. However, irrespective of that,

9 one cannot see Kojlovica. The village of Kojlovica cannot be seen.

10 Q. My question was referring to Vranjevac.

11 And would you agree with me also, Colonel -- would you agree with

12 me also --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if your -- if your question does relate to

14 Vranjevac -- Vranjevac, we must have an answer to it.

15 So can you answer that, please, Mr. Filipovic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vranjevac can be seen. Not all of

17 it, though. Most parts of Vranjevac can be seen, because Vranjevac is on

18 some slopes. And on this elevation, to the north of the railroad between

19 Pristina and Podujevo. However, Lapska Street was Lapska during the time

20 of the aggression, where it was. It cannot be moved anywhere else. Where

21 the circle is, that is where Lapska Street never was.

22 I have a map here of the hotel as well, a map of Pristina from

23 that period of time. That is not where Lapska Street is. Lapska Street

24 goes from the area of the railroad towards the interior of the city.


Page 19249

1 Q. Witness, I -- I didn't ask you about Lapska Street. I'm simply

2 asking from that location that is marked on this map, marked by the

3 witness herself, there is a view --

4 A. From that location, one can see Vranjevac; or rather, most parts

5 of Vranjevac, but not Kojlovica.

6 Q. I take it you also agree that with binoculars the view would be

7 even further enhanced from the top of that building.

8 A. With binoculars, the view can be much better, but not Kojlovica.

9 Kojlovica cannot be seen even with astronomical binoculars.

10 Q. And you agree with me that from that location, from the top of her

11 building at that location, she would have been able to see into the centre

12 of town. Do you agree with that?

13 A. Parts of the centre of town, yes; those that are not overshadowed

14 by taller buildings. Because in Pristina there are even 15-storey

15 buildings and her building has only 5.

16 Q. Now, Witness, do you know of the -- the Jugopetrol warehouse in

17 Pristina?

18 A. I did not quite understand. Could you please repeat that.

19 Q. Wasn't there a Jugopetrol warehouse, a fuel depot in Pristina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And was it not located near the Pristina Corps Command?

22 A. Well, "nearby" is a relative thing. This is where it was: It was

23 near the Orthodox cemetery of Pristina. Well, it was about 150 to 200

24 metres away from that cemetery. It was about 100 metres away from the

25 main road going from Urosevac via Pristina to Kosovska Mitrovica. I think

Page 19250

1 that that's the depot that you're asking me about.

2 If it is that depot, then it is where I said.

3 Q. And this Jugopetrol warehouse, this fuel depot, are you able to

4 say how many fuel tankers it -- it consisted of or -- or how large the

5 complex was?

6 A. I cannot tell you exactly, because I really don't know that or was

7 that within the scope of my work. I used to know a person called Lalic

8 who was the director. That is what I can tell you about that depot.

9 Nothing else.

10 Q. And I take it that the military would -- would obtain its fuel

11 from that depot. Is that right?

12 A. I'm not aware of that, because that was not within the scope of my

13 work, but I do know that the army on the basis of contracts and plans of

14 the ministry got supplies according to a certain scheme from the territory

15 of the entire state. As for this warehouse, this depot, whether fuel was

16 obtained for the army from there, I don't know about that.

17 Q. But I take it -- I take it you agree that fuel was obviously

18 important for the running of the army, especially during the conflict.

19 A. Fuel was very important. And we did get fuel supplies from the

20 territory of our country. What else could we do but get supplies of fuel

21 in order to defend our country?

22 Q. And so it's likely that if there was a fuel depot such as what

23 we've been discussing, it's likely that the military would -- would be

24 taking fuel from that depot. Would you agree with that?

25 A. That is possible, but it had the legitimate right to get these

Page 19251

1 supplies. But whether it was precisely from there and whether that is

2 what the plans said, well, that is something that I don't know.

3 Q. If we could go back to Exhibit P2004, please.

4 Witness, this is a document that we're familiar with. If you look

5 down the bottom, it says that "On the night of the 12th and 13th of April,

6 the following installations in Pristina -- in the Pristina sector were

7 hit." And then there's a sentence that says: "The following civilian

8 targets were attacked in Pristina," and one of them is the Jugopetrol

9 warehouse. I suggest to you that the Jugopetrol warehouse was not a

10 civilian target.

11 A. I claim that the Jugopetrol depot or warehouse was a civilian

12 target. Well, the army drinks water too, so probably the waterworks

13 therefore become a military objective. Nearby Badovac, near Pristina,

14 that is where the waterworks were bombed. Probably these people were

15 guided by the fact that the military drink water too. If that logic were

16 to be applied, then there cannot be a single target that would not be hit.

17 Water was drunk by the military and by the population, Serbs, Siptars,

18 Turks, Roma, we all drank water. And then we're wondering why the

19 population was moving out, the Serb and the Siptar population. That would

20 be my answer.

21 Q. Witness, you must -- you must agree with me that a facility such

22 as this one --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got his answer. I mean, we'll assess the

24 answer in the light of all the evidence. We need to move on here.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for Prosecution Exhibit 1996 to be

Page 19252

1 brought up, please.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue.


5 Q. Colonel, this is the -- this is the record of minutes at a meeting

6 held by the MUP staff in Kosovo and Metohija in Pristina on the 7th of

7 May, 1999. And as you will see from the front page, the Deputy Prime

8 Minister, Mr. Sainovic, attended the meeting, in addition -- in addition

9 to various officials from the MUP. And I'd like you -- I'd like to go to

10 page 5 of the English, please, and page 4 of the B/C/S.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.

12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, I can see that he read "Sainovic"

13 for some reason. I mean, the Prosecutor. But I see no reason why this

14 document should be shown to the Pristina Corps commander, who is an

15 officer of the Yugoslav Army, except if you need confirmation for the

16 umpteenth time that Mr. Sainovic attended this meeting. I don't know why

17 we are honoured in this way. The witness is an officer of the Army of

18 Yugoslavia and he should be asked whether this meeting took place and how

19 and why, but what is the foundation for that? So I object to this.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you're being unduly sensitive, Mr. Fila,

21 because no question has yet been asked, and I don't at the moment know

22 what the purpose of this is, and there's certainly no evidence against

23 Mr. Fila [sic] contained in what's been said so far.

24 Mr. Cepic, you also wish to object?

25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Only if you allow me, Your Honours.

Page 19253

1 As far as I can remember, my client, General Lazarevic, was not allowed to

2 explain this document in the course of his examination. Thank you very

3 much.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give me a --

5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] The explanation was that he did not

6 attend this meeting.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain this.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- well, please be quiet for the moment, would

9 you, until we deal with the situation. There's been an objection taken.

10 They wish to prevent you answering, because they think it's unfair to

11 their client, so you mustn't intervene in that -- in that situation.

12 Can you give me a transcript reference, please.

13 MR. CEPIC: I will try to do my best. In next three minutes we

14 will have that reference, please, or earlier.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it needs to be now, because -- or as quickly

16 as you can, because you wish to oppose the question even being addressed,

17 which is ...

18 Well, perhaps we should hear what the question is, first of all,

19 and then you can let me know whether you insist on the objection.

20 Mr. Sachdeva, what is the question?


22 Q. You will see, Colonel, on this page that the -- the chief -- the

23 chief of the SUP in Pristina, Mr. Janicevic, is giving a report. And I

24 want you to look down at the middle of the page, or towards the latter

25 part of the page. Do you see where it says: "The military is not taking

Page 19254

1 sufficient measures and most crimes are being perpetrated by VJ members"?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what is your purpose in relying on this

3 document to put your question? When you've had answers to this already.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I think it's an issue of

5 credibility. The witness who was -- who was in Pristina throughout the

6 whole war period has given evidence to the Court that he does not know of

7 any crimes that were committed in Pristina by VJ members.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. So his evidence is clear. So what are you

9 now trying to do?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm trying to show the witness that there is a

11 report that -- by the -- by the Ministry of the Interior that the VJ

12 members were committing crimes. I'm simply going to ask him whether that

13 causes him to reflect on his answer.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: No. He's already answered the matter clearly.

15 You're putting, yet again, a matter that's already been put. This system

16 does not allow for the putting to every witness of every document of any

17 nature in the case that might -- that might contradict his answer. You

18 will have an opportunity to make submissions about the value to be placed

19 on this in relation to his evidence and his evidence in relation to this

20 in due course. So please go to something else.

21 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm guided, Mr. President.

22 Q. Colonel, yesterday we -- we discussed this leaflet by the KLA.

23 You remember that? Allegedly by the KLA.

24 A. I remember.

25 Q. And do you remember that it appeared to emanate from the president

Page 19255

1 of the Republic of Kosovo, Mr. Ibrahim Rugova?

2 A. Well, I don't know who that originated from. I don't know that.

3 But the flyer was found there. And that was not the only one; there were

4 several. And secondly --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- just one moment.

6 Please ask a question, because I think I've already explained to

7 you that this method, which we're all familiar with in -- in common-law

8 jurisdictions of establishing a basis for a question by asking witnesses

9 to confirm things, where the witness that we have -- the witnesses we've

10 experienced here want to answer and deal with all the nuances that

11 might -- might be behind the question, does not help us to make progress.

12 It helps in this system to get to the nub of the matter quickly. So

13 please ask the question.

14 We -- we took the same line with -- with a number of Defence

15 counsel questions in cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses earlier,

16 particularly in Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination. Again, you are coming

17 from a fairly similar jurisdictions and are familiar with an approach

18 which does not suit the type of evidence or the experience of -- of the

19 witnesses that we are dealing with.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Colonel, you don't know who produced this document, do you?

22 A. I don't know that. I can only assume or speculate that it came

23 from the terrorist centres; but I don't know. I don't know who wrote

24 those leaflets that were thrown out of the plane. I really don't know

25 that. But they were not thrown from our planes. That's for sure.

Page 19256

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you -- are you saying this document was thrown

2 from a plane?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, not this one.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was just one in the context of

6 the leaflets.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You see how -- you see how easy it is to cause

8 confusion by not just concentrating on the question and answering the

9 question you're being asked.

10 Mr. Sachdeva.


12 Q. You don't know, Witness, do you, whether it was produced by the VJ

13 or from Belgrade? You don't know that, do you?

14 A. My army would never have done that. It never did that, and this I

15 rule out.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, first of all.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a

18 reference for this interesting claim in order to make it easier for us.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please not overlap.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, the -- your objection is -- is far too

21 late. The witness had answered the question before you were getting to

22 your feet.

23 And had you done so, the answer might have been different, but the

24 question has been answered.

25 And I'm sure you're not unhappy with the answer.

Page 19257

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, not because of the answer, but

2 just so that I know for future reference. Maybe I have simply missed

3 something.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it wasn't based on -- on evidence. It's a --

5 it's a question which simply asked the witness to confirm that he doesn't

6 know a particular source. But I -- it certainly didn't strike me as a

7 suggestion that there was evidence to that effect.

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Microphone not activated]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: And I am -- yes.

10 Mr. Sachdeva, I -- if there had been objection taken to that

11 question, it would have been sustained. Please continue.


13 Q. Colonel, you told the Court that you were in Pristina, apart from

14 that one day, from the onset of the conflict until the end of the

15 conflict. That's right, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you've given evidence about KLA activities in Pristina and

18 also in the general area of Pristina, and you've given the Court a lot of

19 information about which positions in Pristina were hit by NATO. That's

20 right, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it's fair to say that you are in a position to have known what

23 was taking place in Pristina during the conflict.

24 A. I was in a position to know everything that happened in Pristina,

25 things that I saw, things that I myself experienced, and things that were

Page 19258

1 within the purview of my job. Many things that were outside of my purview

2 were not something that I had to know and were not something that I could

3 know, but most of the things that were within my purview, well, I was

4 informed about them. I knew about them.

5 Q. I take it the -- the bakery shops were not within your purview.

6 Is that right?

7 A. Well, bakery shops were not within my purview, but that doesn't

8 mean that our families -- my family, for one, bought bread there to eat.

9 And during the war I was in contact with my family.

10 Q. I take it that also the -- the functioning of the -- the pension

11 office was not within your purview, as it related to civilians.

12 A. Well, yes, that relates to civilians, but many family members of

13 mine were pensioners, many of my friends, and I had many Siptar friends.

14 They received their pensions. There were retired officers, Siptars, my

15 very good friends, who received their pensions. There were those who

16 became renegades, who became terrorists. And I had some very good friends

17 and they told me about that and I saw them when they received their

18 pensions, because the cashiers' desks where they received the pensions

19 were very close to where I was at the Union Theatre, 100 metres away from

20 there, this is where makeshift offices were put up after NATO air-strikes.

21 And that's all I have to say about that.

22 Q. And you know that there were, if I'm right, two train stations

23 within the general area of Pristina. Yes?

24 A. Well, in the territory of the municipality of Pristina, there was

25 only one train station, not two.

Page 19259

1 Q. And given that you have a -- a fair amount of knowledge as to what

2 was going on in Pristina, you must have seen the hundreds of civilians

3 taking those trains away from Pristina. Isn't that right?

4 A. I did not see that.

5 Q. You must have known about it through other means. You must have

6 heard about the civilians that were leaving Pristina on the trains on a

7 regular basis during the conflict.

8 A. I didn't hear anything about people leaving Pristina on a regular

9 basis. I did hear about people leaving it by train, yes.

10 Q. And that's what my question was. So you heard that there were

11 hundreds of people -- I put it to you that you must have heard that there

12 were hundreds of people leaving by the train, leaving Pristina, on a

13 regular basis throughout the war. You agree with that.

14 A. I don't agree with the claim that they were leaving on a regular

15 basis, and I don't agree that I heard a figure, but I did hear that people

16 were moving out of Pristina by train, and I also know that they -- that

17 the inhabitants of Pristina left it by bus.

18 Q. And those inhabitants who were leaving by bus and by train, they

19 were Albanian civilians, weren't they?

20 A. That's not correct. Both Siptars and Serbs, and in fact Turks and

21 Roma left it too. I know that trains were used by Siptars more often than

22 by Serbs in order to flee NATO air-strikes, and buses were used more often

23 by Serbs. But one can conclude that all modes of traffic were used by the

24 population as it moved out of Pristina, and members of all ethnic groups

25 did so. That would be my response.

Page 19260

1 Q. Well, it's just an assumption on your part that they were leaving

2 because of NATO strikes, isn't it?

3 A. Well, it is not an assumption on my part. I personally know some

4 of these, and I participated in some elements.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... Do you really

6 want to ask that question at this stage in this examination when you've

7 heard already the witness's position on it? We know it's a controversial

8 issue. All the evidence will have to be assessed.

9 Have you got much more cross-examination?

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Not much more --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

12 MR. SACHDEVA: -- Mr. President, but --

13 JUDGE BONOMY: You've already dealt with fleeing to some extent,

14 but -- well, I suppose if you're not allowed to continue, then no doubt

15 there'll be re-examination. So perhaps you better continue with this and

16 clarify it.


18 Q. Witness, you did not speak to every single Albanian civilian that

19 was leaving by train or buses, did you?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, there's a limit to how many -- I mean, some

21 questions are just silly. There comes a point really when we have the law

22 of diminishing returns in cross-examination. Do you really seriously

23 think that that's a reasonable question to ask in this trial?

24 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm just trying to establish the basis for his

25 knowledge, Mr. President.

Page 19261

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you ask that question. Let's hear what the

2 answer is.


4 Q. What's the basis for your knowledge as --

5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. The question was: Did you speak to

6 every single Albanian civilian that was leaving by train or bus?

7 What's the answer to that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is elicirate [as

9 interpreted] to expect me to do so, even if I wanted to. Sometimes as I

10 passed by I would speak to some of them on this topic, asking them why

11 they were leaving, why they were leaving on -- in those columns, not

12 moving out. And I told you what the answer was I got from them. They

13 said, "I -- we don't know when -- where we're going." This is -- this

14 pertains to the columns that passed by my headquarters of my command.

15 Some other columns, some other people who were moving out were motivated

16 by other reasons. They would have given other explanations. I don't know

17 what these explanations were. I don't know nothing about that.

18 So I was only talking about those things that I know of. As

19 regards people moving out, I can tell you that I participated and I

20 assisted in the -- I assisted those people to move out. I am sorry that I

21 did so. I may have overstepped the boundaries of my powers, but in

22 accordance with the basic concept of the corps commander, indicating that

23 civilians should be assisted, when the manager of the public bus company,

24 Mrs. Murganic, I gave a certain amount of fuel when she said that citizens

25 want to move their women, their children, and their elderly urgently. And

Page 19262

1 I approved that some fuel could be dispensed in this way so that people

2 could move out to Nis and to other parts of Serbia in -- because people

3 wanted to protect their children, their women, and the elderly. And

4 that's what I did, and that's all I have to say.


6 Q. And those Albanian citizens that were leaving Pristina, they were

7 being escorted by members of the VJ, weren't they?

8 A. That is not correct. Or actually, I never saw that, and I was

9 never informed of any such thing.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Would this be a convenient time to interrupt?

11 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Then just before we rise, there's been

13 some indication, Mr. Ivetic, that you have a problem with tomorrow's

14 proposed schedule.

15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. With the extent -- with the

16 extent it's sitting, although I don't know to what extent Mr. Delic will

17 start today, we have the possibility that we might be coming up for an

18 hour or so of cross-examination of Mr. Delic, who is another one of the

19 witnesses that I had to pick up for Mr. Lukic, and I don't know the status

20 of Mr. Lukic at present, but I suspect that will -- I've been preparing as

21 if I will have to handle this witness. It's the witness for which we have

22 14 days' worth of transcripts for Milosevic and a number of exhibits just

23 for purposes of the direct.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: If that's your -- if that's your concern, he is

25 scheduled for six hours, so there's little or no prospect that you would

Page 19263

1 have to cross-examine him tomorrow. Unless that were to change

2 significantly.

3 And at that stage, if -- if we came to the end of his evidence in

4 chief, then would be the time to raise the concern.

5 MR. IVETIC: To raise it. I can -- I guess I can agree with that,

6 for the purposes of that aspect, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

8 Mr. -- yes, Mr. Ivetic -- sorry, Mr. Cepic.

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, perhaps

10 the reason I'm going to mention is a far more banal one, but some of our

11 colleagues have already booked flights, and I think that Mr. Fila already

12 bought a ticket to fly to Belgrade tomorrow at 6.00, in order to use this

13 weekend to spend it at home with their families. Perhaps it's a much

14 simpler reason, but that would be the motive. Could our sitting hours be

15 at least half an hour shorter so that they could make it on time and catch

16 that flight? Even at the expense of the break, if necessary. Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: The trouble is that we don't have that flexibility.

18 We can't not have these breaks, for reasons of interpretation, and we

19 can't get into the courtroom earlier than 2.15, unless something happens.

20 So -- now, if -- the reason we thought it would be possible to do

21 this is until yesterday, late yesterday -- and you must have thought we

22 were sitting tomorrow afternoon anyway. So I'm surprised that travel

23 arrangements have been made so quickly. But our court schedule was for

24 tomorrow afternoon. We were forced out of the morning to accommodate the

25 Prlic trial, which is dealing with a videolink.

Page 19264

1 I know that earlier it was in the morning, but it was changed to

2 the afternoon last week. So if -- if -- I mean, Mr. Fila, is this

3 something you've done since yesterday evening, made an arrangement since

4 yesterday?

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you can see, there's

6 two of us. So I'm going to leave at any rate.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Yes, I -- so I think we will sit that day as

8 scheduled. I mean, I have a travel arrangement myself, which isn't far

9 away from that, and I anticipate making it. So we will sit according to

10 the schedule that was intimated tomorrow.

11 We'll rise now.

12 Mr. Filipovic, we need to break again, and we will resume at ten

13 past 6.00.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that -- that's the

20 cross-examination.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, you gave evidence about a -- the

24 lack of damage to religious buildings in Pristina. Are you familiar with

25 a mosque known as the Emperor's Mosque?

Page 19265

1 A. Yes. I am very familiar with that mosque. I finished high school

2 10 metres away from that mosque.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Was it burned on the 15th of June?

4 A. On the 15th of June? What year?


6 A. I'm not aware of that; although, I was in Pristina then.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: We've seen a photograph showing it burning and been

8 told that that was on the 15th of June, 1999.

9 A. That was even close to my command post. I would have had to see.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's look then at P1789 and at page 9.

11 Do you recognise that?

12 A. Well, I see that it's the mosque. It's probably that one.

13 Otherwise, I cannot tell by anything whether that's the mosque or whether

14 it's another mosque, but I see the minaret and the mosque. You can see

15 the mosque in the background, but I'm not sure that the part you can see

16 in front is the mosque. The mosque is the minaret and what is right next

17 to the minaret.

18 As for the right-hand part of the picture where the flames are,

19 that's not the mosque.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is it the historical archive of the Islamic

21 community?

22 A. Possibly. That's where a similar building was, and close to it is

23 Sahat Kula, the watch-tower. But it is not the mosque. It is a building,

24 but it is not the mosque.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: You say, though, that you -- were you were based

Page 19266

1 near there. You cannot tell me if this is the Islamic community's

2 historical archive?

3 A. Possibly. It may be that. I know some facilities individually,

4 but I don't know whether that was precisely the archive of the Islamic

5 community. I know that building very well. I remember it very well. 10

6 or 15 metres away from it is the Orthodox clock tower, Sahat Kula.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it possible you knew this building as the

8 Islamic library?

9 A. Well, I didn't know that, but I know the building. I know that it

10 was there, and I know that it was not used for residential purposes.

11 There was an institution there, but I really did not know at the

12 time what it was.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Cepic.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Just a brief question, with your

16 leave, Your Honours.

17 Re-examination by Mr. Cepic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, it's me again. You mentioned that the

19 military territorial detachments were re-subordinated to the Pristina

20 Corps. Do you know whether some brigades were also re-subordinated to the

21 Pristina Corps? Apart from the basic units.

22 A. In addition to the military district, the 202nd base, there were

23 brigades too. The 252nd Armoured Brigade from the 1st Army, the 211th

24 Armoured Brigade from the Nis Army, and some other brigades too, the

25 175th, and so on.

Page 19267

1 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much, Colonel. I have no further

2 questions for you.

3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for these buildings, they were

6 guarded by English soldiers after KFOR got in. I'm sorry, I have to say

7 that. The mosque near my command post was secured by English soldiers.

8 They even had sandbags there. And there was this place behind the

9 sandbags, and that is where English soldiers from KFOR were on guard duty.

10 I personally saw that. They were about 50 metres away from this building.

11 As a matter of fact, close to that location, counting on the

12 reliability of the English soldiers from KFOR, one citizen near the

13 mosque, Dragan Lazic, left his car for them to take care of and his car

14 disappeared.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it may be of some significance for you to

16 know that the evidence we have is that this happened that day shortly

17 before the arrival of KFOR.

18 Thank you. That completes your evidence, Mr. Filipovic. I thank

19 you for coming to give evidence. You may now leave the courtroom.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, and good evening to

21 all of you.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, your next witness.

24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness is

25 General Bozidar Delic.

Page 19268

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Good evening, Mr. Delic.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

5 speak to truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

6 you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Cepic on behalf of

13 Mr. Lazarevic.

14 Mr. Cepic.

15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Examination by Mr. Cepic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] General, good evening.

18 A. Good evening.

19 Q. Well, you -- it was a long wait, but we begin finally. Could you

20 please tell me for the record your full name.

21 A. I am retired General Bozidar Delic, father's name Nikola.

22 Q. General, could you please give me only the major posts that you

23 held during your military career.

24 A. During my military career, I performed all the command functions

25 from the platoon commander level to the corps commander level. At the end

Page 19269

1 of my military career, I was in the General Staff of the Army of Serbia

2 and Montenegro. I was the deputy chief of the operations administration,

3 and I was the chief of the operations administration at one point and I

4 retired from that post, in fact.

5 Q. What military schools did you graduate from?

6 A. I have all the military schools in the JNA: The military academy

7 of the ground forces in Belgrade and Sarajevo; the command and staff

8 school in Belgrade; and the National Defence School, the war college, in

9 Belgrade.

10 Q. General, what is your present occupation?

11 A. I am a deputy, a member of parliament in the Serbian parliament or

12 assembly, and I am the deputy speaker of that assembly.

13 Q. Thank you, General. Could you please tell us, what duties did you

14 have in 1998 and 1999?

15 A. In 1998 and 1999, I was the commander of the 549th Motorised

16 Brigade.

17 Q. Sir, could you please tell us, what were the chief activities of

18 your brigade in 1998 and 1999, up until the beginning of the aggression

19 against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

20 A. The chief tasks of my brigade were as follows: First of all, to

21 train and educate soldiers. That was up until a time in 1998. Securing

22 military facilities and installations, securing the state border,

23 primarily the in-depth security of the state border, and ensuring that all

24 the roads in my area are passable.

25 What I said about the training of the soldiers, up until March of

Page 19270

1 1998 the basic training of the soldiers was done in my brigade, but as of

2 March 1998, up until the end of the aggression, we only carried out the

3 second stage of the training; the basic training was carried out in other

4 units outside of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

5 Q. Thank you, General. You mentioned the securing of the state

6 border. I would like to know, what was the length of the border belt at

7 the state border that was secured by the units of your brigade?

8 A. The units of my brigade secured the larger or the largest part of

9 the border with the Republic of Albania and a part of the border with the

10 former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, as it is called. All in all, it

11 would be about 150 kilometres of state border.

12 Q. Thank you, General.

13 MR. CEPIC: Could we have in e-court system Exhibit number 5D877.

14 Q. [Interpretation] General, this document that you see in front of

15 you, is this a document that originated from your brigade?

16 A. Yes, this is a document dated February. It was drafted in my

17 brigade.

18 Q. What are these dates here? So we start with the second passage.

19 Could you just please tell us very briefly.

20 A. Here where we have the dates, all the dates are in January. These

21 are the border incidents on the state border in my area of responsibility.

22 Q. We see that there is a substantial number of those in January.

23 Could you please tell us: As the aggression loomed near, did the number

24 of border incidents increase?

25 A. Yes. In 1999, despite the OSCE presence, virtually every day

Page 19271

1 there would be those border incidents. I can see that we have 13 of those

2 listed here. And they continued on in January and February, March, all

3 the way up to the beginning of the aggression.

4 Q. Thank you, General. Could you please explain to me very briefly

5 what was the procedure when a border incident occurred.

6 A. The border was secured by small units, seven to eight people

7 strong. There would be six to seven soldiers and one officer, commanding

8 officer.

9 The procedure was as follows: If it was apparent that these

10 people carried weapons, they would be stopped. If -- in fact, they would

11 be stopped if they carried weapons, they would be asked to drop [Realtime

12 transcript read in error "draw"] the weapons, to put their hands up, and

13 to surrender.

14 What I say here about them carrying weapons, I say that because if

15 they did not carry weapons, they would be violating the state border

16 regime and they would be treated in a different manner.

17 If they fired on the people securing the border, which would be

18 most often the case, fire would be returned in order to neutralise them,

19 capture them. In some situations the purpose would be to prevent them

20 from getting into our territory or, in the final analysis, to destroy such

21 a group.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Cepic. I assume that line 20

23 the word should be "asked to drop the weapons." Should it?

24 If you intercepted someone carrying a weapon, you would ask them

25 to do what with the weapon?

Page 19272

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To drop their weapons.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order was to drop the weapons.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. Cepic.

6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] General, if there was an incident, did the

8 investigative organs of the OSCE mission go to the site or anyone else, in

9 fact?

10 A. If you're talking -- if you're asking me about 1998, there is a

11 difference between 1998 and 1999 -- or rather, there is a difference

12 between what happened in 1998 until May and afterwards, for the rest of

13 1998.

14 When there was an incident, especially if there were any

15 casualties among the army troops or among the terrorists or those who

16 violated the state border regime, an investigative judge would visit the

17 scene. He was supposed to come from the Nis military garrison. Crime

18 scene technicians from my brigade would also go to the scene, and a local

19 mixed commission would also be summoned from our organs and also from

20 Albania. That was how it was until sometime in May.

21 After that, the contacts ceased and the local mixed commissions

22 from Albania refused to come to the scene of those incidents. And once

23 the OSCE mission was in place, it was notified of any -- of all such

24 incidents and they tried to visit all the scenes of such border incidents.

25 There were some problems, because there was a large number of such

Page 19273

1 border incidents, and it was a mountainous area in wintertime. So the

2 teams which were supposed to come from Prizren were sometimes unable to

3 arrive at the scene in the same day, because they had gone somewhere else

4 to verify some other incidents. So they would then come the next day.

5 Q. Thank you, General. We have seen some footage of a border

6 incident at Liken Mountain. We heard General Maisonneuve, who testified

7 about that. Now I would like to move on to something else related to

8 1998.

9 MR. CEPIC: Could we have in e-court system 5D683, please.

10 Actually, 863.

11 Q. [Interpretation] General, do you see this document that's in front

12 of you on the screen?

13 A. Yes. This is a document from 1998 originating from my brigade,

14 and I signed it.

15 Q. Thank you. We can see here in item 1 that prior to opening fire,

16 an assessment should be made whether there are any monitors from the

17 international community present there.

18 Now, my question to you is: What was your relationship with the

19 foreign monitors and observers?

20 A. It was a correct relationship on both sides, from our side, and in

21 most cases, from their side too. We were responsible for their security

22 and safety. In fact, our state was. And we, as the representatives of

23 the army, and also the representatives of the police, we were duty-bound

24 to ensure that within our areas they can move about and that they are

25 safe, lest there should be any unpleasant situations or lest the

Page 19274

1 worst-case scenario should come true, lest there should be any casualties.

2 And as far as I know, only two of the mission members were

3 wounded, because they activated a mine that had been laid by the

4 terrorists and they were wounded. As far as I know, throughout their

5 presence in Kosovo and Metohija, none of them were killed.

6 Q. General, what was the basis for this order that you issued?

7 A. This order was issued pursuant to an order from the Pristina

8 Corps, and this order is actually referenced here. The number is listed

9 here, and the date is the 10th of July.

10 Q. Thank you. General, we heard that you said that there was an

11 increase in border incidents. Were there any incidents in the hinterland

12 up until the beginning of the aggression?

13 A. Well, I and my brigade were in charge of the border most of all.

14 I referred to the situation at the border in that order. But throughout

15 Kosovo and Metohija, there was an increase of incidents in 1999. Most of

16 these incidents took place on the roads. Both civilian vehicles and

17 police vehicles, the latter in particular, and the army vehicles, came

18 under attack, came across mines, or were targeted by hand-held rocket

19 launchers, and so on. And something that is peculiar for this period: A

20 large number of Albanians, loyal citizens of the Republic of Serbia, were

21 killed in that period, as were Albanians who in late 1998, sometime in

22 September or October, surrendered their weapons to the army or the police.

23 The OSCE received daily reports and so did we, and bodies of those

24 Albanians were found in many locations throughout Kosovo and Metohija,

25 including my area.

Page 19275

1 Q. General, could you please clarify, where were you born and where

2 did you spend a substantial part of your life?

3 A. I was born in the vicinity of Djakovica, and that's where I lived

4 until I completed my secondary school. When I left to study at the

5 military academy, and up until 1995, I only went there to visit my parents

6 on my annual leave. And from 1995 onwards, from the 6th of February,

7 1995, I came to the Prizren garrison, to the 549th Brigade, where I was

8 first the Chief of Staff, and then from August of 1997, I was the

9 commander of that brigade.

10 Q. Thank you, General.

11 MR. CEPIC: Could we have Exhibit number 5D878, please.

12 Q. [Interpretation] While we're waiting for the document to appear on

13 our screens, before the war, was -- were there zones that were under the

14 control of the KLA?

15 A. Yes. In some territories, from the beginning of 1998, but

16 especially in February and March, there were a few territories that were

17 under the control of the terrorists.

18 Q. Could you just tell us briefly, in your own area of

19 responsibility, very briefly, which territories were under the control of

20 the KLA?

21 A. In my area of responsibility, especially the territory that is

22 near Djakovica, that is the territory that includes the villages of

23 Glodjane, Jablanica, Kraljane, Crmljane, Bec. Then another territory near

24 Orahovac, that is the territory that included the villages from Gornji and

25 Donji Potocani via Drenovac to the village of Zatrice and the village of

Page 19276

1 Petkovic. Then the entire territory around Malisevo. Then the territory,

2 sometime from June 1998, the territory of the villages of -- well, the

3 villages that are in the triangle of roads, so to speak: Zerze-Prizren,

4 Prizren-Suva Reka, Suva Reka-Orahovac, not to mention all of them

5 specifically. Gornje and Donje Ratimlje, Studencane, Samodreza, not to

6 mention all of them. Then Veljka Hoca, Mala Hoca, Celine, Brestovac,

7 Ratimlje, Nogovac. And a territory around Suva Reka, which is a territory

8 that had Budakovo in its central part, but it's Budakovo, Macitevo, it's

9 that mountainous area.

10 Q. Thank you, General.

11 What was the situation in 1999?

12 A. In 1999, as I've already said, from the beginning of 1999 the

13 terrorists, despite the presence of the OSCE mission, staged incidents

14 every day and they extended the territory that they kept under their

15 control in relation to the territory that they held sometime in July 1998.

16 So in my assessment, already by the month of February they held about 50

17 per cent of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, especially in the

18 central part of that territory that they held, where the town of Malisevo

19 is and the region of Drenica, the Drenica Mountains, the mountain of

20 Milanovac. That's the area.

21 Q. Thank you, General. The document that we see right now on our

22 screens in front of us, is this a document of yours?

23 A. Yes, this is a document that I personally wrote to the corps

24 command.

25 Q. Tell me, we see here a description of the roads, that some of them

Page 19277

1 were interrupted.

2 A. Yes. For me as commander, the major problem was precisely that,

3 the fact that roads from the territory of Metohija going to the territory

4 of Kosovo, towards Pristina -- already in the months of January and

5 February they were partly closed, and it was very risky to take these

6 roads in individual vehicles, quite impossible in military vehicles. When

7 convoys travelled down these roads, they had to have heavy security.

8 Q. General, would you please look at the eighth paragraph of this

9 document. I think that it's on page 1 of the English too. It says: "The

10 entire territory of Milanovac is under the control of the STS."

11 A. I've found it.

12 Q. Could you read it.

13 A. "The entire territory of Mount Milanovac, which is bordered by the

14 towns of Suva Reka, Orahovac, and Malisevo, is under the control of the

15 Siptar terrorist forces."

16 Q. Could you please read the next paragraph.

17 A. "According to our information as well (a reliable source), the

18 territory between Prizren, Suva Reka, and Orahovac has recently also been

19 taken almost entirely by the Siptar terrorist forces."

20 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Please.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know roughly from when this document is?

22 A. February 1999.

23 Q. Thank you, General.

24 MR. CEPIC: Could we have the second page, please. Count 4.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please look at the second paragraph, in

Page 19278

1 relation to paragraph 4.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The second paragraph.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could the OSCE carry out -- or rather, did their activity have any

6 effect on the KLA?

7 A. Although we expected that, obviously, judging by this large number

8 of incidents, the OSCE could not have any effect on the terrorist forces.

9 Q. Thank you. General, these KLA activities, did they lead to the

10 civilian population moving out?

11 A. As far as the Serb and Montenegrin population is concerned, most

12 of them moved out in 1998 already from those villages in my area where

13 there were only a few houses respectively. So in 1999, the Serb

14 population remained only in a few villages; that is, Velika Hoca, where

15 only Serbs live, and the village of Novake, where only Serbs live. Then

16 there were also Serbs in Smac, a few houses; in Zojic, a few houses; in

17 Rastane, a few houses; and in Musutiste, which is a big village, it has a

18 population of over 2.500. Half of the population were Serbs and the other

19 half were Albanians.

20 Q. Tell me, did both Serbs and Albanians move out?

21 A. As far as Albanians are concerned, I know that in 1998 and 1999

22 people were moving out. In 1998, especially in the month of July, when

23 this anti-terrorist action started. I had occasion several times on the

24 ground to see that when the police would show up or when the army would

25 show up, columns would be set up in villages consisting of tractors and

Page 19279

1 other vehicles and that they would start leaving the villages concerned.

2 Usually, the column would leave part of the village and move towards the

3 army and the police and another part of the column, or a different column,

4 would go in the opposite direction, if I can put it that way, towards the

5 woods, towards the mountains. Often, especially this other part of the

6 column, we could see that directly even with the naked eye, and sometimes

7 we used binoculars as well. Sometimes they were followed by these forces

8 of the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army, the UCK, that is.

9 As the OSCE came in, the population returned to their villages

10 within my area of responsibility, but I know that within the area of the

11 Drenica mountains, that is, the part of Kosovo and Metohija where Malisevo

12 is in the centre, I know that during the OSCE mission and up until the

13 beginning of the aggression part of the population was outside their

14 villages.

15 Q. Thank you, General.

16 As far as villages are concerned, what was the basic principle of

17 the KLA or UCK in relation to villages?

18 A. In 1998 and in 1999, very often terrorists attacked from the

19 villages themselves, because roads went through villages. However, what

20 would happen would be that sometimes the civilian population was not in

21 the village itself. They had been moved to another village beforehand.

22 Or if this attack would take place, say, against smaller units of the

23 police -- in most cases it happened to the police, attacks at individual

24 patrols. When there would be intervention by stronger forces, when they

25 would come to the aid of the attacked units, one could see that the

Page 19280

1 terrorists were using the population as a human shield, although they

2 believed and said that they were actually helping their population go to

3 some other areas, deeper into the mountains or into the woods.

4 There is also the term of "two villages" that is -- that exists in

5 military practices. I saw that in 1998 and 1999 as well. One village

6 would be in-depth as a logistics base, and the previous village that had

7 been emptied, so to speak, at a given point in time terrorist forces

8 appear there. They set up an ambush. They attack the military or the

9 police from these ambushes, causing losses in their ranks, and then they

10 would withdraw to the village that was their logistics base. Then again

11 they could change back into civilian clothes, and from there they can

12 either go to other safer areas or simply stay there.

13 Q. Thank you, General. We are now going to move on to the beginning

14 of the war. Could you please tell me -- actually, it's better if we have

15 the map on our screens before that.

16 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... 32, please.

17 5D1332, please.

18 Q. [Interpretation] General, is this your map?

19 A. Yes, this is my work map.

20 Q. I chose this one because, frankly, its quality is the best in

21 e-court.

22 I'm going to ask you to explain and indicate on the map what area

23 of defence you took up.

24 MR. CEPIC: Could we zoom in, please. Zoom out, please.

25 Q. [Interpretation] General, would you like it to be zoomed out now,

Page 19281

1 or do you think it's right now?

2 A. Well, I'm going to deal with part of it, and then if you can

3 later --

4 Q. No, no. If you start your sketch on this format, we have to

5 finish.

6 A. Can the map be moved up and then we will see the area that I'm

7 trying to show. If the entire map can be scrolled up. Or if not, could

8 it be zoomed out.

9 MR. CEPIC: Could the map please be scrolled up a bit. Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] General, when did you take up -- or rather, what

11 was the area of defence that you took up?

12 A. Well, do you want me to draw that down the borderline?

13 Q. We can see that clearly on the map. We would like to see the

14 actual points, from where to where, and also locations in the interior.

15 A. I'd like to draw it along the borderline.

16 Q. Please go ahead.

17 A. [Marks]. That would be the borderline. Roughly, that would be

18 the direction of my zone.

19 Q. What is the length of the front line, General?

20 A. Along the line of the border, that's about 150 kilometres.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, what happened there? What -- what was

22 put on the map? Oh, sorry, I'm looking at one which is on the other side

23 of the screen. Sorry.

24 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, now I see it.

Page 19282

1 MR. CEPIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. Do I have to repeat any

2 question?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, that's okay. I can see it clearly now.

4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].

5 Q. General, you said 150 kilometres, that that was the length of the

6 front line.

7 A. Yes, that is the length down the borderline, along the front line,

8 as we say.

9 Q. What about in depth?

10 A. Up to 20 kilometres.

11 Q. All right. Perhaps this is my last question for today, because

12 our time seems to be up. Could you please tell me, for a motorised

13 brigade like your brigade was, how big should that area be?

14 A. According to the principles involved, it should be a manoeuvring

15 ground, 12 to 15 kilometres; in mountainous and hilly ground, 15 to 20

16 kilometres; and in mountainous ground like this one, it can be even up to

17 25 kilometres, in terms of the front line. And in depth, it can also be

18 20 to 25 kilometres.

19 Q. Thank you very much, General.

20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Delic, is -- is this map one that was

22 originally drawn by you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is my work map.

24 One can see that this is the 9th of April, 1999. I originally ordered it

25 to be drawn, but I'm not the one who actually does the drawing. It's my

Page 19283

1 operations man, my operations officer who does that, an officer who was

2 specially trained to draw maps, but according to the elements that I give

3 him, according to the elements that I directly give him on the map. He

4 directly puts that on the map.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you arrange for Mr. Cepic and his team to get

6 this map?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I know that I had this map in

8 2005 when I was a witness at the trial of the late President Milosevic.

9 Perhaps this map dates back to that time and has been here since then.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And was it you that arranged to get the map for

11 your previous appearance as a witness here?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 2005? In 2005, the then-legal

13 advisors of President Milosevic provided a large number of maps. I

14 remember that. Among others, I think there were 15, 20 of them. One of

15 them is this map. I'm not sure, but perhaps this map was submitted to the

16 Office of the Prosecutor as far back as in 2002 through the investigator

17 in Belgrade, who asked for my work maps. And I think that all of those

18 that were there then in the archives were handed over to him. But I'm not

19 sure.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, do you know the source of this map?

21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We took this map in

22 the JDB electronic system. If you are asking specifically about our

23 Defence team, we took it from the Milosevic files, and that's why it's so

24 good in e-court. Unfortunately, our equipment is not that good.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, do you know the source of this map?

Page 19284

1 MR. HANNIS: No, I don't, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: If you can find out any more on that subject for

3 tomorrow, then I would be grateful.

4 MR. HANNIS: I will --


6 MR. HANNIS: -- make my best efforts. Thank you.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

8 We have to interrupt your evidence there -- oh, I'm sorry.

9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. Can we

10 please have an IC number assigned to this map.


12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 149, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 Mr. Delic, we have to interrupt there for the day and resume

15 tomorrow. That will be at 9.00 tomorrow morning. I don't think in this

16 courtroom. I think -- Court III. So you need to be back ready to resume

17 at that time.

18 Meanwhile, as you know from your previous attendance here, it's

19 vital that you should have no communication with anyone at all, no matter

20 who, about the evidence in this case, and that means any part of the

21 evidence.

22 Put what's going on to the back of your mind. Talk to people

23 about other things and come back here refreshed, ready to resume at 9.00

24 tomorrow.

25 Now could you please leave the courtroom with the usher.

Page 19285

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of

5 November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.