1 Wednesday, 28 November 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Filipovic.
7 [FRENCH INTERPRETATION ON THE ENGLISH CHANNEL]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... The solemn
10 declaration to speak the truth, which you made at the outset of your
11 evidence continues to apply to the evidence today.
12 Mr. Cepic.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: MILUTIN FILIPOVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Mr. Cepic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, good afternoon.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Are you rested?
20 A. Yes. Thank you.
21 Q. Are there any examples of Serbs moving out and even leaving their
22 property to Siptars?
23 A. There are numerous examples of that, because that's how it was in
24 those wartime conditions. People helped each other and tried to make due
25 any way they could.
1 And here's an example. There was a well-known professor of
2 mathematics from Pristina university, Toma Milenkovic. Immediately after
3 the air-strikes began, he moved away. And he had a good neighbour,
4 Semsudin Hejdija [phoen] and his son Halil. And Semsudin had four sons.
5 He gave them the keys to his flat and he gave them his fridge, because his
6 neighbour had a cevapcici restaurant, and he said that he could use his
7 fridge. That's an example for you.
8 Q. You mentioned migration in Pristina, moving out. Could you please
9 tell me when this peaked.
10 A. Well, moving of the population out of Pristina began --
11 Q. We've heard that.
12 A. It grew in intensity especially after the air-strikes of the very
13 centre of town, which was on the 7th of April. After that, this migration
14 increased, especially because some crucial facilities, such as the
15 transformer station in Pristina were bombed. The waterworks near Badovac
16 supplying Pristina with water were also bombed. Communications were
17 damaged. People were in a panic because telephone lines had been cut off.
18 Only some telephone lines were established using an old switchboard, a
19 makeshift switchboard, and only some people had access to phone lines. So
20 after that, this movement increased.
21 Q. You're a witness of the events in Pristina. Can you tell me the
22 targeted facilities in Pristina and the surroundings, what was the
23 relationship between civilian and military facilities?
24 A. Well, approximately 90 per cent to 10 per cent. 90 per cent of
25 the targets hit in Pristina were civilian targets. The only military
1 target in Pristina was the Pristina barracks. That was bombed, but the
2 barracks had been abandoned because the 15th Armoured Brigade had left the
3 barracks before the aggression and taken up their positions, and the
4 remaining positions were all civilian positions.
5 Q. Thank you. Colonel, did you see columns of civilians in the town
6 of Pristina?
7 A. Yes, I did. I did see columns of civilians moving through the
8 town of Pristina. I would see them in the immediate vicinity of my
9 command post, some 10 metres away from where my command post was. They
10 often passed by there in the course of the aggression, in both directions.
11 These columns moved from several directions, especially from the direction
12 of Donje Ljubce, Grastica, via Vranjevac, passing by the municipal court
13 and the municipal building, then along Mladina Popovica Street, passing by
14 the secondary school and the Proleterske Street; and then it would go
15 down -- part of it will go down Vidovdanska Street, and another part
16 through Belgradska Street. And then after a while, the same columns would
17 go back, the same people would be in those columns.
18 The aim, especially in the area from Ljubce to Grastica was to
19 have terrorists join those columns who threw away their weapons and fled
20 before the forces fighting them and shooting at them. That's it in brief.
21 It was an imitation of migration, similar to what happened in 1990, when
22 they pretended to be poisoned by non-existent poisons, and that's a
23 well-known incident that I don't want to dwell on any more.
24 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I am unclear, you should know, Mr. Cepic, about how
1 you know whether a column is leaving because of the bombing or is leaving
2 as some device organised by the KLA. It's very vague.
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We'll try to
5 Q. Colonel, the columns you described as moving through Pristina, did
6 you recognize the same people in those columns sometimes?
7 A. In the columns that moved through Pristina, especially those that
8 passed by the building where my command was, after they passed in one
9 direction, I would see the same people - not just I, but other members of
10 my command - would see the same people going back in the other direction,
11 along the same route. We even asked some of them where they were going,
12 and they would say, "We don't know. That's what they told us. That's
13 what they told us to do."
14 I was born there. I had lived there for a long time. I knew a
15 lot of people personally. And that's why I was able to recognize them and
16 know that they were the very same people moving first in one direction and
17 then back in the opposite direction.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Are these different columns from the ones that were
19 migrating to escape the bombs?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my answer is as follows:
21 Some of those columns behaved in the way I have just described. Some
22 citizens really fled to escape the bombs. They were concerned and
23 frightened of the bombing. Some had had relatives killed or wounded by
24 the bombs. And these were civilians fleeing. However, there were many of
25 those that I've just described who were simply pretending to migrate, and
1 these were more numerous than the former category. At least, as far as
2 the town of Pristina is concerned.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, in the streets of Pristina, did you see
7 prominent Albanians?
8 A. Yes. I saw many Albanians. I socialised with some of them at my
9 command post, because it was located in the municipal building and they
10 came to work there every day, and I would also see some well-known
11 Albanians walking down the street. For example, the notorious ideologue
12 of the terrorists, Adem Demaci. He would pass by my command almost every
13 day. He wore a beige coat, nearly white. It was very light in colour.
14 And he would pass by without hindrance, first in one direction and then
15 the other, throughout the entire aggression. I noticed him, and so did
16 other members of my command. And this also relates to others. But, well,
17 this is just an example. And this is true.
18 Q. Just to clarify a point, what is Adem Demaci known for? Why is he
20 A. Well, he is notorious because of many bad things. Many years
21 before, he had been sentenced for terrorist activity. Some 30 years
22 before, he had been sentenced to nine years for terrorist activity. That
23 was his first sentence. And my father was a juror in that trial. Later
24 on, he was sentenced to 13 years again. He spent a large part of his life
25 in prison for inciting terrorism and for terrorism. That's it in brief.
1 Q. And are these judgements from the SFRY period?
2 A. Yes. They date from the '60s, after the fourth plenum.
3 Q. Thank you. Colonel, what were the living conditions in the town
4 of Pristina itself?
5 A. Well, very briefly, in the town of Pristina, in view of the daily
6 bombing and the wartime conditions, in line with these conditions -- or
7 rather, if we take these conditions into account, life went on more or
8 less as normal, speaking in relative terms. For example, all the bakeries
9 in town were operating. The privately-owned bakeries, owned both by
10 Siptars and Serbs, continued operating, as did a large state-owned bakery.
11 The television institutions continued operating in four languages:
12 Siptar, Serb, Roma, and a fourth one. Newspapers were published and
13 distributed, including newspapers in the Siptar language. Shops were
14 open. The clinical hospital centre treated all citizens. The maternity
15 ward was operating. And as I frequently had contacts with the State
16 Registry Office - the chief of that service was Adnan - I remember more
17 than 100 Siptar children were inscribed in the register of births. They
18 were born in Pristina Hospital; although, many children were not entered
19 into the registers because of the war. But all institutions were
21 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Page 6, 17. I believe the witness said a Turkish
25 language as well and he said the radio was operating in all four languages
1 as well. It hasn't been entered into the transcript.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, during the aggression, were old-age
5 pensions paid to citizens regardless of ethnicity?
6 A. This function of local self-management also continued to operate.
7 When the post office, the main post office in Pristina was hit, then it
8 was no longer possible to use postal services and to pay out old-age
9 pensions. The post office immediately responded and set up makeshift
10 desks in the Union Building next to the theatre, which was across the road
11 from the post office. There was more than one desk operating, and people
12 queued up at these desks to get their old-age pensions. And most of these
13 were Siptars. Of course, because there were more of them living in the
14 town and receiving old-age pensions. And the same applied to Gracanica,
15 one of the largest places in Pristina municipality. Old-age pensions for
16 the villages of Ajvalija, Mramor, Slivovo, Dragovac, Saskovac, and all the
17 surroundings villages were also paid out. That's as far as old-age
18 pensions are concerned.
19 Q. Can you remember any names of people queueing up to get their
20 pension -- pensions?
21 A. Well, pensions were paid to all citizens inter alia because the
22 pension fund had a republican pension fund and also a military pension
23 fund. I recognized many of those who were military pensioners getting
24 their pensions there. I won't enumerate them now, but there were many of
25 them, and many among them would stay there, leave Kosovo, and come back
1 again several times during the aggression. They would move away and then
2 they would come back.
3 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the bakery as operating throughout the
4 war. Do you know what the ratio of employees in the bakery was, as far as
5 ethnic affiliation goes?
6 A. Well, the city bakery, the main one, on the road leading to Kosovo
7 Polje, the director was Djordje Simic, produced about 20 to 25 thousand
8 kilogrammes of bread per day, which was similar to the production before
9 the aggression. The breakdown of employees was as follows: More than
10 two-thirds were Siptars, especially in direct production, because
11 production of bread in Kosovo is not in the Serb tradition. But even
12 without that many work organisations, many enterprises introduced work
13 obligation, and in socially owned institutions and other enterprises, more
14 than 50 per cent were Siptars, and they continued to come to work
15 regularly. Even the investigating court had Siptar employees, and they
16 came to work and participated in investigations, and so on and so forth.
17 Q. Colonel, let's talk now about houses of worship and religious
18 buildings. Were any such buildings in the town of Pristina damaged or
20 A. As regards the city of Pristina, I can say that not a single house
21 of worship or religious building was either damaged or destroyed. I am
22 referring to Islamic, Catholic, and Orthodox buildings. And I'm
23 especially referring to Islamic ones.
24 In the vicinity of my command, there were two very important and
25 large mosques which represent the cultural heritage of Islam, the
1 Carska or Emperor's Mosque, Jasar Pasa's Mosque, and a third mosque, and
2 they all remained undamaged, as did the other facilities during the
3 aggression, religious services were held there. I saw that personally.
4 But as regards Orthodox buildings, the situation was not the same. The
5 Orthodox cemetery in Pristina was bombed more than once, and on one
6 occasion it was bombed when I was there, because I was attending a
7 funeral, the funeral of an officer who had been killed. His name was
8 Milic. He had a twin brother who was -- and he was killed in the NATO
9 bombing. And we barely managed to complete the funeral. We were almost
10 all killed, and many graves were damaged.
11 In the vicinity of Pristina, the cemetery in Gornja Brnjica was
12 damaged, as was the cemetery church, part of the cultural heritage and
13 monument to the Kosovo battle at Gazimestan were also damaged, and so on
14 and so forth.
15 Q. Thank you. Regardless of whether house of worship belonged to the
16 Catholic, Orthodox, or Muslim faith, were any military facilities or
17 equipment placed in any one of these buildings?
18 A. No. I categorically state that that was not the case.
19 Q. Thank you. We heard about the town of Pristina, but let's talk
20 about the surrounding villages now -- or actually, before that, I'm
21 interested in the following: Did cluster bombs hit Pristina and the
22 surrounding area?
23 A. In the town of Pristina and in the surrounding area, there were
24 many hits by cluster bombs. Some of the remains of these cluster bombs
25 were collected by us, and out of these remains we made a small exhibition
1 in front of our command. So all citizens, Serbs, Siptars, and all
2 passers-by could see this collection of those remains. This was even
3 filmed by some foreign journalists.
4 Q. Thank you. Could you just give me an example of the largest
5 villages around Pristina. What was life like? Briefly.
6 A. Well, I'll enumerate a few villages, although Pristina as a
7 municipality includes over 46 villages. I'm going to mention those that
8 are the closest and that are the most characteristic. For example, the
9 village of Gracanica is the largest village inhabited by Serbs. That goes
10 for the entire Kosovo and Metohija.
11 Life was relatively normal there, except for the fact that very
12 close to the monastery of Gracanica and the village of Gracanica, there
13 were many bombings of military facilities; namely, a warehouse that was
14 nearby. So this disturbed the citizens. Otherwise, life went on as
16 And let me say that in the village there was a big bakery that was
17 operating, that worked before the war too. A Siptar, Leki Nikolj [phoen]
18 was the owner of that factory. He baked bread there, and he sold his
19 bread to citizens during the aggression, before the aggression, after the
20 aggression. When his son got killed, the citizens of Gracanica, Serbs,
21 went to the funeral of his son, to his native village in Metohija. So
22 there's that example.
23 Then there's also the village of Ajvalija that was one of the
24 larger Siptar villages before the aggression. Although, before that it
25 had mostly been populated by Serbs. Life in that village evolved in a
1 rather organized way. There are many examples of Serbs helping each other
2 out, Serb and Siptars actually helping each other out with food supplies
3 and so on; Serbs were very few there actually. All shops were open. All
4 the shops that were open were only owned by Siptars. Primarily the
5 families of Vitija, Gashi, Berisha, those shops were open on a regular
6 basis. The mosque --
7 Q. Just a moment, please. Not all of this can be recorded in the
9 A. The mosque in the village of Gracanica did not only remain
10 undamaged but religious services were held regularly there. As a matter
11 of fact, this village took in some Siptar refugees from the surrounding
12 villages. The village council took them in. The village council included
13 the families of Pacoli [phoen], Vitija, and Drela. An attempt was made to
14 have the population moved out of this village on two occasions, actually,
15 Siptars; namely, in the direction of Kolonija, Ajvalija, Vucji Potok,
16 Mramor. The other direction was Vucji Potok and Mramor. That is where
17 they had been promised to be taken in by the terrorist forces. The
18 terrorist forces would organise their life there. Some of them went there
19 and stayed there for a day or two, and then went back to their own
20 village, realizing that that had not been true. And that is where they
21 stayed, in their own village until the end of the aggression. They lived
22 a peaceful life. No one was hurt, except for one citizen, Sopiani, who in
23 the area of Mramor and Mranice, he was a victim and no one knows why.
24 The village of Maticane, this is also one of the biggest villages,
25 closest to the town of Pristina. It is inhabited by Siptars. There were
1 about 20 houses of Serbs. Life in that village was also practically
2 normal, except that in that village the few Serbs there during the
3 aggression and just before the aggression, and later on during the
4 aggression, they were expelled, and some were even killed and kidnapped.
5 For example, Momir Kostic was kidnapped and his wife was killed. They
6 were from that village. And the terrorists did that.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. And many others, not to enumerate all the names now. A woman by
9 the name of Julijana was killed. Her husband was killed. And so on.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 [FRENCH INTERPRETATION ON THE ENGLISH CHANNEL]
12 A. [Previous translation continues] ... The village of Kisnica,
13 actually, a mining town near the Gracanica Jezero. It's an old mine with
14 a mining colony. It was inhabited both by Serbs and Siptars.
15 That mine used to work very intensively. Before the aggression,
16 there was a decline in its production and it worked a very small capacity.
17 Also, some of its facilities worked throughout the aggression. Serbs and
18 Siptars had work assignments throughout the aggression. And the command
19 post of the corps command was there for a while. It happened that way.
20 Irrespective of that, life went on as normal. The mining clinic
21 was open as well. It was headed by a doctor, Dr. Jahija, an Albanian.
22 He's a dentist, actually, and he was head of that clinic or infirmary.
23 And nearby there was a refugee centre where refugees were put up, Serbs
24 who had fled from Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 In that centre during the course of the aggression, a number of
1 Siptars who had fled from some other places near Pristina were put up.
2 They were put up together with the Serb refugees, and they shared the same
3 destiny. They were only about 100 metres away from the command post of
4 the corps command.
5 Q. Thank you. Colonel, my last question: The members of the Army of
6 Yugoslavia in Pristina, did they participate in any way in expelling
8 A. In the briefest possible terms, no.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. There is not a single example of that kind.
11 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.
12 A. You're welcome.
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That was my
14 last question.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
16 Mr. Fila.
17 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour. Very
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, I'll have a few questions for you. You
21 saw Defence Exhibit 5D348.
22 Could we please see it on our screens. Just to speed things up.
23 While we're waiting for this document, let me say -- ah, here it
24 is. Could we just have paragraph 1 zoomed in on.
25 As you can see, it says here: "After the planned relocation of
1 the Pristina Command outside the building of the command."
2 Now I want to ask you the following: Once the command of the
3 Pristina Corps was relocated, did it ever go back during the course of the
4 war? Yes or no?
5 A. When the command was relocated, from this building that was its
6 headquarters in peacetime and where I was too, the corps command never
7 returned there. I, as garrison commander, took it upon myself to provide
8 external security for it; however, inside the command was never there any
10 Q. Thank you. You have a great deal of experience in this. Could
11 you please explain to us amateurs what this Pristina Corps Command looks
12 like in peacetime, and generally speaking what it looks like. How many
13 people are there? What happens there? What is required in order to
14 command the Pristina Corps?
15 A. Well, I, as a member of the command, can explain this briefly;
16 although, that is not exactly my line of work in terms of my function, but
17 I will tell you about it.
18 The corps command especially and any command is a complex
19 mechanism. It has several organisational parts, especially the corps
20 command according to wartime establishment is deployed in a broad area.
21 Q. I asked you about peacetime. What was it like in peacetime? The
22 command of the Pristina Corps while it was in that building.
23 A. While it was in that building, we, the entire peacetime command,
24 that had about 100 men, was headquartered there. It wasn't only the
25 command of the Pristina Corps that was there.
1 Q. How many storeys does this building have?
2 A. I think it's five storeys. I may be making a mistake by one, but
3 I think it's five storeys.
4 Q. You said that you took care of that building as you -- as you were
5 appointed commander of the Pristina garrison, as it says here.
6 I want to ask you the following: During the course of the war --
7 actually, let's do it this way: Did some people enter that building from
8 the military? For example, General Lazarevic, General Pavkovic, then some
9 other people from the police, and then some civilians too; and then from
10 that building, from that command post that was there in peacetime -- are
11 you following me? The way you described it. Did these people command the
12 units of the Army of Yugoslavia and MUP from there?
13 A. No, no way. I categorically state that that was not the case,
14 because the commander of the guard would have had to inform me about this.
15 That was Vuckovic. But I would have known myself too.
16 Q. One more question. In order -- in order to command, do you need
17 some kind of communications? Do you need to keep up communications? Or
18 does somebody just sit in a room and command through the window, or
20 A. You cannot command a modern war without modern communications
21 equipment and systems of communication.
22 Q. Were there such systems during the course of the war in that
23 building, the ones that you're talking about now?
24 A. Let me tell you quite briefly. This is not exactly my line of
25 work. But the 52nd Centre for Communications was there. However, when
1 the aggressions started, the entire 52nd Stationary Centre for
2 Communications was relocated there, in its entirety.
3 Q. Thank you. My last question: At the Grand Hotel, you said -- I'm
4 just saying this for the transcript. You said that this 52nd -- answer:
5 "Stationary centre of communications headed by Colonel Mladenovic
6 relocated from that building at the beginning of the aggression."
7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. The transcript doesn't seem
8 to be right again. I do apologise.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: We better have that answer again. The question
10 was: Were there such systems - that's modern communications equipment and
11 systems - during the course of the war in that building? That is, the
12 original Pristina Corps Command centre. What's the answer to that
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to that question is as
15 follows: There weren't any people there who were working for them, and
16 equipment was not there. If there had been such equipment, it was taken
18 JUDGE BONOMY: What -- your answer, though, was -- was quite
19 different from that. It -- it had something to do with the 52nd Centre
20 for Communications. What did you tell us about that? Because it's not
21 been -- apparently not been transcribed.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that centre, when the
23 aggression started, was relocated from that place, moved out of that
24 place, in accordance with a plan.
25 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Last question, Colonel. You mentioned some kind of information
2 centre when you were speaking, of the Pristina Corps.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. Please
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You mentioned the information centre of the Pristina Corps. Could
7 you please tell us, where was that centre located? In what building? And
8 what purpose did it serve?
9 A. That information centre was located in the building of the Grand
10 Hotel, and it mostly provided information to the public and also liaised
11 with the media, informing the public about the developments in Kosovo and
12 Metohija at that time, and in particular with the efforts of the army, to
13 deal with the wartime conditions and to establish new -- a proper way of
14 life for the civilians.
15 Q. So would you agree with me that the Pristina Corps Command was not
16 located at that hotel?
17 A. Yes, that is correct. It was not headquartered there.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Sachdeva:
22 Q. Good afternoon. I take it I can refer to you as "Colonel"; is
23 that right?
24 A. Good afternoon. Yes. Yes, you may.
25 Q. Before I -- before I start on a more substantive topic, I'd just
1 like to go back to one thing you said yesterday in answer to my learned
2 friend. Do you remember being asked about whether the VJ artillery would
3 fire from Vranjevac to the village of Kojlovica? Do you remember a
4 question about that?
5 A. I remember.
6 Q. And your answer to that question was that it did not take place,
7 and you said, and I quote: "Especially since Kojlovica is a mixed
8 village, populated by both Serbs and Albanians." Do you remember that?
9 A. I remember that. But it was in the context of the previous
10 sentences, so it cannot just stand alone.
11 Q. Well, let me ask you this: I take it when you said "especially
12 that it was a mixed village," you were saying that it's inconceivable that
13 the VJ would fire upon Serb civilians. Would you agree with that?
14 A. First of all, it is inconceivable for the Army of Yugoslavia to
15 open fire on any civilians. So as far as the Army of Yugoslavia was
16 concerned, civilians both of Siptar ethnic background and Serbs, they were
17 all the same.
18 Q. So I take it that that's if the village was solely populated by
19 Albanian civilians, it would not make a difference.
20 A. I've said - and let me repeat once again - the Army of Yugoslavia
21 never opened fire on any civilians, and it would never do that. It would
22 be in contravention of the international conventions and customs of war,
23 and also it would be contrary to our laws. All the soldiers and all the
24 officers of the Army of Yugoslavia were aware of that.
25 Q. Now, Colonel, you said that throughout the conflict, at least when
1 NATO started its bombing campaign, you were in Pristina. Is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And during the period that the conflict continued, I take it you
4 remained in Pristina.
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And so you didn't have the opportunity to visit the other outer
7 lying municipalities within Kosovo itself, did you?
8 A. On one occasion, I left Pristina; that was during the aggression.
9 I asked the corps commander for permission, and he allowed me to leave and
10 to visit my son in the Vitina area. I did that. I took one day off. I
11 went there and I returned in the same day. I spent the remainder of the
12 time in Pristina and in its vicinity.
13 Q. Very well, then. So in answer to my question, apart from that one
14 day where you had a family visit, if I can put it that way, you did not
15 visit the other command posts of the VJ throughout Kosovo and Metohija,
16 did you, during the conflict?
17 A. Well, my answer to your question is as follows: In the town of
18 Pristina, there were many other military units. These units had their own
19 command posts. I visited some of those, such as on two or three occasions
20 I visited the command post of the Pristina Military Department and the
21 command post of the Military District of Pristina. I also visited -- but
22 in fact, this was not just a visit. I went to the corps command. It was
23 an official visit. That was in Kisnica. And this is all I can remember
24 at this point in time.
25 Q. Yes. Thank you. Perhaps -- perhaps my question was not precise
1 enough. I just want you to confirm for me that during the conflict you
2 were not -- you did not visit the military establishments in, for example,
3 Pec or Prizren or Kosovo Polje. Is that correct?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. So you must accept that you would not know whether the VJ in those
6 areas - and of course, they -- they were present in those areas - you
7 would not know whether they were in fact firing at civilians or violating
8 international humanitarian law, would you?
9 A. Well, you could not really say that I don't know about that,
10 because you don't gain all your knowledge by seeing things for yourself;
11 although, if you are an eyewitness, this is a much more certain kind of
12 knowledge and it makes you a more reliable witness. I had many contacts
13 with the troops, with the officers, and I never got any such information.
14 That's number one.
15 Number two, from the point of view of what we had been trained and
16 taught to do and what we had prepared before the aggression, I was
17 absolutely sure that nothing of the sort could actually happen.
18 So that would be my answer to you.
19 Q. Your job was to be the group commander of the Pristina garrison,
20 wasn't it?
21 A. I led a command group that I described earlier, and the
22 composition was also described, and the commander of the Pristina
24 Q. And in that group, were there departments that were actively
25 involved in combat?
1 A. I said this yesterday, and let me repeat today: In that group,
2 there were no combat elements. And in the course of the aggression, up
3 until the Kumanovo Agreement, we never participated in combat. None of
4 the members of that group and of the garrison command fired a single
5 bullet at anyone. In fact, nobody ever trained their weapons at anyone at
6 all. This is the truth.
7 Q. Let me ask you about that, actually. I remember yesterday -- in
8 fact, you probably remember yourself -- that you were asked if -- if you
9 and your colleagues ever fired a single bullet, and your answer was that
10 you never even pointed a barrel at someone. You remember that answer?
11 A. I remember. And I can say that this was in the period of the
12 aggression, up until the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement.
13 Q. Now, I take it that -- well, if you could just tell the Court,
14 within the garrison and within the group that you commanded, how many
15 soldiers were there, roughly? Soldiers, officers. Can you give us a
16 number, please.
17 A. Well, the strength changed from time to time, and it increased in
18 relation to the initial period, but it was between 100 and 150 people.
19 Q. And I take it that you yourself and, indeed, the other officers
20 were armed during the conflict. Is that right?
21 A. Yes. All of us in this group were armed. We had the kind of
22 weapons envisaged by the establishment, so not just any weapons we wanted
23 but weapons that were issued in accordance with the peacetime and wartime
24 establishment. That would be mostly rifles and pistols.
25 Q. Did any of your officers or did yourself, did you have
1 semiautomatic rifles, for example, Kalashnikovs?
2 A. We had M-70A rifles.
3 Q. Now, you would agree with me that your garrison and you yourself
4 and your fellow soldiers would have been legitimate military targets. You
5 agree with that, don't you?
6 A. Well, I can't tell you whether we were a legitimate military
7 target. I feel no need to discuss this topic at all. I carried out my
8 duties. I don't know if I was a target of any kind. At that time, it
9 really didn't interest me. I had my tasks and I focused on carrying them
11 Q. Well, for someone such as yourself, who has had considerable
12 experience in the army, I take it you know whether -- or I take it you
13 know what a legitimate military target is.
14 A. Fine. Okay. Let's say that I knew that I was a legitimate
15 military target, but not a target for terrorists. War had been declared.
16 Q. Well, let's just stick to the time period when war started. By
17 the same token - and we've had evidence in this trial that the VJ were in
18 conflict with an armed rebellion, or the KLA. You know that existed,
19 don't you?
20 A. The Army of Yugoslavia was not in conflict with the terrorist
21 forces. That is not true. The terrorist forces were in conflict with the
23 Q. Well, let's just say that there happened to be -- irrespective of
24 who started a particular action, you would agree with me that the VJ were
25 entitled to fire and to neutralise members of the KLA. Do you agree with
2 A. The Army of Yugoslavia was entitled, pursuant to the Constitution
3 and the Law on the Army and the Rules of Service. So its personnel was
4 entitled to open fire not only on terrorists, on Siptar terrorists, but
5 also on everybody else who may have attacked it and fired on it. So any
6 other parties -- had any other parties attacked the army or its personnel,
7 they would get the same response.
8 Q. And so during certain battles or in the conflict between the VJ
9 and the KLA, you would agree with me that it would be to the VJ's
10 advantage if they were to neutralise a KLA terrorist or a -- a KLA company
11 or a battalion. That would be to the VJ's advantage. Would you agree
12 with that? In -- in military terms.
13 A. Well, it would not be in the army's favour if you have a broad
14 look. It would be in favour of the people living there in that area, the
15 people who suffered casualties because of the terrorist attacks. Siptars
16 and Serbs alike. Because a terrorist, as you know all too well, killed
17 many Siptars, and also many innocent Serbs. So it would favour the
18 population, and the army would come last in this.
19 Q. Let's try and -- let's try and reach this point in another way.
20 Let's -- let's take an hypothetical situation. You have two armies, two
21 belligerents fighting a war. Are you with me on this at the moment?
22 A. Yes, I can follow you, and I'm following you very carefully, in
24 Q. And you would agree that the purpose of each of those armies is to
25 defeat their opposite or their enemies. You agree with that?
1 A. I will agree with you partially. I will not agree with you when
2 you say that these are two armies, because this is not true. These were
3 not two armies. There was the Army of Yugoslavia and the Siptar
4 terrorists on the other side.
5 Q. Well, I was actually giving you a hypothetical situation, so let's
6 just stick with two -- two belligerents, two parties fighting against each
8 And in that situation, you would agree with me that if one party
9 has the opportunity to take out another member of that -- of their enemy
10 party, then it would be something that would be done and something that
11 would be advantageous to -- to the party firing the shot. Do you agree
12 with that?
13 A. I don't agree with that. You said a lot of things here, and I
14 have really followed you very closely, and I don't know what the question
15 is. You actually asked me several questions. I can answer each of them
16 in turn, if that's what you want me to do.
17 First of all, these are not two sides participating in combat,
18 because one side is not participating in combat at all, and that would be
19 the Army of Yugoslavia.
20 You have combat if you have simultaneous attacks. Yet the army is
21 not participating in this sense. It -- it is attacked by the terrorists,
22 and then it responds, using appropriate assets, to those terrorist
23 attacks. So this is something quite different to what you are trying to
24 put to me in your question. I -- I'm sorry.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva, we don't have the luxury of the time
1 here for a theoretical debate about the rights and wrongs of the means of
2 conflict between parties, the definition of their respective status,
3 depending on whether they're terrorists, freedom fighters, or a -- a
4 military organisation. And we found, I think, in general here that
5 hypothetical questions are not well received by the witnesses who appear
6 before us. They are generally suspicious of them and prefer to deal with
7 the facts of the situation.
8 So I wonder if you could concentrate more on dealing with
9 questions that deal with the facts that this witness can perhaps assist us
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President. I'm guided. I was actually
12 trying to get to my eventual question.
13 Q. Colonel, you told the Court that you yourself and your fellow
14 soldiers never fired a shot.
15 A. That's not correct. I didn't say "never." I just said "in the
16 course of the aggression." Up to the Kumanovo Agreement.
17 Q. And you also told the Court that during the conflict, there were
18 KLA establishments within Pristina, and you spoke about terrorist attacks
19 in Pristina. You remember that?
20 A. Could you please repeat your question.
21 Q. You gave evidence yesterday that there were KLA formations in the
22 area of Pristina and that there were allegedly terrorist attacks in
23 Pristina. You remember giving that evidence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it really your evidence, Colonel, that you and your other 100
1 soldiers that were armed never fired a shot at these KLA terrorists in
2 Pristina? Is that what you're telling the Court?
3 A. No. What I'm trying to tell the Court is what I want to tell the
4 Court, and what I'm trying to say is that up to the Kumanovo Agreement,
5 not a single member of the Kumanovo garrison [as interpreted] fired a
6 single bullet. This is the third or fourth time I've been repeating this.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: The term "Kumanovo garrison" has appeared in the
8 transcript. Was that the name of your garrison?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. What I was saying: Up
10 to the Kumanovo Agreement, that is, the 10th of June, 1999.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I appreciate entirely. And that also appears
12 in the transcript. But it goes on to say: "Not a single member of the
13 Kumanovo garrison fired a single bullet." I take it that wasn't a name
14 given to the Pristina garrison that you were in temporary command of.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's an error, an evident
17 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... For the
18 transcript. Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Sachdeva.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 MR. SACHDEVA:
22 Q. So what I understand is that from the onset of the conflict, when
23 NATO started its campaign, up until the 9th or 10th of June, in 1999, you
24 and your fellow soldiers never fired a single shot at KLA groups within
25 Pristina. Is that your evidence?
1 A. My evidence is that from the beginning of the NATO aggression, not
2 campaign, and air-strikes, up until the Kumanovo Agreement, not a single
3 member of the command of the garrison and the group I was in command of
4 fired a single bullet at anybody.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, you also told us yesterday that
6 there were almost daily attacks -- terrorist attacks in Pristina before
7 the aggression.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say that.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you also saying that none of your garrison
10 fired shots in connection with these attacks?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as you were able to see,
12 Your Honour, I became the garrison commander as of the 30th of March. The
13 aggression began on the 24th.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: So you can't speak to the earlier period.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can, but in a different
16 context, because I was not the garrison commander at the time.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please -- please don't -- please don't try to mess
18 us about, Mr. Filipovic. The question is about your personal knowledge of
19 the use of weapons prior to the 23rd of March. Now, forget your exact
20 status. What is your evidence about the use of weapons by members of that
21 garrison in connection with KLA attacks prior to the commencement of the
22 NATO aggression?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the NATO aggression began,
24 there were numerous attacks, both on civilians and on members of the army
25 in the general area of Pristina. For example, on the 15th of March, there
1 was an attack near Vranjevac --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, deal with the question. Tell me
3 whether or not the garrison fired shots in connection with any attack at
4 all. Yes or no?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware that anyone fired
6 from the garrison. I am not aware of that.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... It's
8 straightforward. I don't need any more detail. If I want more detail,
9 I'll ask for it.
10 Mr. Sachdeva.
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. So with the KLA that were in the town and these KLA groups, what
13 in fact did the army do with respect to these groups?
14 A. The terrorist groups in the general area of Pristina launched
15 attacks both on citizens and on members of the army in the general area.
16 In the town itself, I did not see a single terrorist carrying terrorist
17 insignia of any sort. They may have been terrorists, but we were unable
18 to recognize them in the town, because terrorists are terrorists,
19 according to what they do. But they did not wear any insignia in town.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, your evidence yesterday was that
21 there were daily attacks by terrorists in Pristina before the aggression.
22 You were able to tell us yesterday that terrorists were attacking. What
23 Mr. Sachdeva wants to hear is what the army did about it. Can you not
24 tell us that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nothing. For example, in
1 March, two policemen were killed in the Pristina neighbourhood of
2 Imsirovo. Four policemen were killed in the centre of Pristina. One was
3 of Siptar ethnicity, and he was wounded. And the army did nothing,
4 because it was not tasked with doing anything about that in town. It was
5 other structures that responded, but there was nothing they could do
6 because the terrorists were wearing civilian clothes and they fled the
7 scene of the crime. And there are many other similar examples.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.
9 MR. SACHDEVA:
10 Q. Colonel, I just want to talk to you briefly about your -- your
11 role in the garrison. I understand that you were in charge of matters
12 relating to housing and -- and personnel. Is that right?
13 A. Well, you see, my duty as the garrison commander is prescribed in
14 the Rules of Service of the Army of Yugoslavia. My duties are prescribed
15 for peacetime, and as a provision, in the Rules of Service, saying that in
16 wartime all the duties remain the same. I hope you have a copy of these
17 rules, and there you can see all the tasks. I can remember and enumerate
18 many of them, but I may not be able to do so in the exact order that
19 they're listed in the Rules of Service. If you need me to tell you, I
21 Q. Colonel, I think my question was relatively simple, but let me
22 just ask you this --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, again, experience tells us here that it is
24 very unwise to ask a question which has clearly been answered in a
25 straightforward way in the evidence in chief just to set the scene. It
1 doesn't work. So it's much better to get straight to the issue that you
2 want to ask about, and then you can go back and clarify the sort of formal
3 part, if it turns out to be necessary.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm guided, Mr. President.
5 Q. Colonel, the information with respect to the strength of the
6 Pristina Corps, in terms of personnel, I take it that you would regularly
7 brief or at least brief the commander, General -- General Lazarevic. Is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And I take it that you would do this at these meetings that you
11 spoke about, the collegium meetings, and also the meetings that you had
12 within the Pristina Corps during the conflict. Is that right?
13 A. I don't recall all those meetings in detail, but I remember many
14 things. I informed him of everything that was of interest. I did not
15 keep quiet about anything.
16 Q. With respect to the strength of the Pristina Corps in terms of
17 personnel and manpower, if General Lazarevic sought information, you would
18 be the person, you would be that point person; is that right?
19 A. Well, no. I'll tell you why. Because I was assistant commander
20 for personnel affairs. It was my task to inform him of professional
21 members. With respect to soldiers and conscripts, that was done by
22 another department, which was called Department for Mobilisation and
23 Replenishment, and it was Lieutenant-Colonel Simovic was at the head of
24 that. I had other information also, but my primary task was professional
25 members, which means officers, non-commissioned officers, and contract
2 Q. But in addition to those groups, you would also know the -- the
3 amount of nonprofessional officers and -- and other such volunteers; isn't
4 that right?
5 A. Yes, for the most part.
6 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for Prosecution Exhibit 2004 to be
7 brought up on the screen, please.
8 Q. Colonel, this is a document from the Pristina Corps Command dated
9 the 13th of April, 1999. And you'll see it's a report, a very urgent
10 report to the 3rd Army and the Supreme Staff Command. Do you see that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it has various subsections. And if I could ask you to go --
14 if I could ask to go to page 2 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.
15 And you'll see, General -- Colonel, at the bottom part of the
16 document you will see a section entitled "Effective manning level." Do
17 you see that there? It's under section 3.
18 A. I see.
19 Q. And you will see under 3.1 that it is reported to the 3rd Army and
20 to the Supreme Command Staff that the corps - and that is, I suggest, the
21 Pristina Corps - is manned by 61.892 men. Do you see that written there?
22 A. Yes, I see that.
23 Q. And you see further along that section that this figure is broken
24 down into subcategories; namely, the amount of officers, the amount of
25 non-commissioned officers, regular soldiers, and volunteers. Do you see
2 A. Yes, I see that too.
3 Q. So I take it that this means that the Pristina Corps had, in terms
4 of military personnel, had almost 62.000 men. Is that right?
5 A. That's right, with reinforcements.
6 Q. And does that figure in this document, does that, with respect to
7 your role within the Pristina Corps, does that figure appear to you to be
9 A. Well, to understand this better, the Pristina Corps, in terms of
10 war establishment, had 30 to 34 thousand members in total. This figure
11 here relates to the Pristina Corps with re-subordinated units. The corps
12 itself in the wartime establishment had between 30 and 35 thousand
14 Q. Well, you'll see it that says 54.106 soldiers. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes, I see that too.
16 Q. And those soldiers -- those soldiers are within the Pristina
17 Corps, aren't they?
18 A. But that also -- no, those soldiers were in the Pristina Corps
19 with the re-subordinated units. That would be the correct answer.
20 Q. Well, you don't see anything here about re-subordination, do you?
21 A. Well, it's not mentioned here, but it's implied.
22 Q. And it is reported by General Lazarevic to the 3rd Army and the
23 Supreme Command Staff that the Pristina Corps has 62.000 -- roughly 62.000
24 soldiers. Isn't that right?
25 A. Could I please see the signature, if that's possible, at the
1 bottom of this document.
2 Q. Yes, we can go to the last page, please.
3 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when this witness was
6 asked to establish the authenticity of another document by the same organ,
7 I was not allowed to do that, as it was not within the witness's sphere of
8 competence. That was the 3rd combat report of the Pristina Corps. And I
9 think the number of the exhibit was ... If you'll allow me.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: That was you trying to set the document up, was it
11 not? In this instance, Mr. Filipovic sounds suspicious of the document
12 and wants to see whether it's authentic. The situation is different.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't want so much to see whether
14 it was authentic as to see who compiled it, because this document was
15 compiled by the organ for recruitment and mobilisation, not the one headed
16 by me. That was the organ headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Simovic. That was
17 the reason I wanted to see what the initials were.
18 MR. SACHDEVA:
19 Q. Colonel, would you agree with me, though, that this is a report to
20 the 3rd Army and to the Supreme Command Staff about the effective manpower
21 of the Pristina Corps, irrespective of whether units have been
23 A. You can see that from the heading, to whom it's addressed and by
25 Q. I take it that you agree with my question.
1 A. I agree.
2 Q. And when I asked you earlier about this figure of 61.892 men, you
3 mentioned reinforcements. What do you mean by "reinforcements"?
4 A. Yes. I basically abide by that. These are figures expressing the
5 numbers of the Pristina Corps with the attached units, and these are the
6 following units: First of all, the units of the Pristina Military
7 District, the units of the 202nd Rear Base or logistics base, and some
8 other smaller units. These units and the war composition of the Pristina
9 Corps make up the numbers that can be seen in this document.
10 Q. Now, I'd like to go to Exhibit 5D00348, please.
11 Colonel, this is the exhibit that you -- you commented upon in
12 examination-in-chief, where it details your role and the role of the
13 garrison. You remember this document?
14 A. Yes, I remember.
15 Q. And in this document, it lists various departments that the
16 garrison would comprise of. Isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. There is nothing in this document that suggests that matters
19 related to procurement or supplies would be within the competence of the
20 garrison. Do you agree with that?
21 A. I can't agree with that, because this is an organisational
22 document. It gives only the framework and the composition of that group
23 as a whole; whereas, the tasks are formulated at a later stage.
24 Q. Sorry --
25 A. And not just that, but even before that. It's well known what
1 their tasks are, because that's provided for in many previous documents.
2 However, this document only deals with the organisation, what units will
3 enter into this group, into its composition.
4 Q. So you agree with me that in this document there is no mention of
5 procurement or supplies.
6 A. No, I can't. Many other jobs are not mentioned. Now one should
7 mention whether the orchestra is to play or not and what they are doing?
8 That would take us to extremes. This is an organisational document, and
9 the tasks follow from other previous documents and tasks and duties.
10 Q. I'm not interested in what kind of document this is. I'm simply
11 asking you to agree with me that there is no mention of procurement or
12 supplies in this document. Do you agree with that or not?
13 A. I'm sorry, but when you ask me like that, I cannot agree with you,
14 because it doesn't say here that they should have three meals a day but we
15 did have three meals a day. I apologise.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, the question is very simple. You
17 mustn't be suspicious of what complications might be created because you
18 answer a simple question with a simple answer. You're being asked whether
19 this document actually refers to procurement or supplies; yes or no?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this document [Realtime
21 transcript read in error "detention unit"] does not. The document itself.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 Mr. Sachdeva.
24 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Colonel, earlier on in your testimony you spoke about -- I see my
1 colleague is on his feet.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I believe the -- the transcript says
4 "detention unit" as I believe the witness says "document."
5 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
6 MR. SACHDEVA:
7 Q. Colonel, earlier on in your testimony you spoke about the military
8 court and the prosecutor's office. And we can see from this document that
9 it is contained within the garrison. You remember answering a question
10 about that?
11 A. Yes. I remember speaking about the military prosecutor's office
12 and the military court.
13 Q. And you also said that the work of the court and the prosecutor
14 was independent and that you wouldn't have been privy to the substantive
15 workings of that court. Is that right?
16 A. I said that the work of the court and the work of the military
17 prosecutor's office were independent in their work.
18 Q. And I take it that within your role in the garrison you weren't
19 aware of the details of any cases that would have been submitted to the
20 court. Is that right?
21 A. No, that's not right. I was aware of some cases. For example, I
22 was aware of a case because I was summoned to participate as a juror. It
23 had to do with theft.
24 Q. Was that the only case you were aware of, because you were
25 participating in it?
1 A. Well, a lot of time has elapsed. I think that was the only case
2 in which I played the role of a jury member. There may have been some
3 others. I can't recall exactly. But I do know that the members of the
4 garrison were very often summoned to participate as jury members in some
5 cases before the military court of the Pristina Corps.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 MR. SACHDEVA: May I ask just one more question?
8 Q. Let me put it this way. When cases --
9 A. Go ahead.
10 Q. Generally when cases were submitted to the court, in other words,
11 the evidence, the documents, it wouldn't be -- as a matter of course, you
12 wouldn't be reviewing those cases. Am I right?
13 A. No, no, no, no. I don't even know how many cases were filed
14 before the court or what the outcome was. This information was not
15 available to me, nor did I interfere in that, nor was that my task.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: We can take the break now, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: You've departed from the issue of the procurement
18 of supplies, have you?
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, actually not.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. That's fine. Thank you.
21 Mr. Filipovic, we need a break at this stage. That will be for 20
22 minutes. Could you leave the courtroom with the usher, please, and we'll
23 see you again at five minutes past 4.00.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Colonel, I take it that during the -- during the conflict, during
6 the war, you wouldn't know all the names of all the reserve officers that
7 were attached to the Pristina Corps Command. Am I right?
8 A. Well, this is what my answer is: I knew all the officers of the
9 command of the Pristina Corps. As for those who were assigned
10 temporarily, I did not know all of them and I did not know all of their
11 names. So, please, this is the category I'm talking about, temporarily
12 assigned to work there. That is so, strictly speaking.
13 Q. So when you say you knew all the officers of the command of the
14 Pristina Corps, I take it you would not know -- and you're answering my
15 question in the affirmative -- you would not know all the names of all the
16 reserve officers within that corps; is that right?
17 A. No, I certainly didn't know that.
18 Q. So then you would agree with the possibility -- that there is a
19 possibility that the reserve officer called Tijanic, you may not have
20 known whether that person existed. Is that right?
21 A. No. No. This is a question of the corps command. If we are
22 talking about the corps command, that is something different.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: We seem to have confused language here. The
24 witness is quite clear that he knows the identity of all officers in the
25 corps command except those temporarily assigned there, which is not
1 necessarily a reserve officer. I don't know where the concept of reserve
2 comes into this. That's quite distinct from claiming he knows everyone
3 within the Pristina Corps. And it's important that you make that
4 distinction when you're addressing him.
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I thought I made the distinction
6 with respect to the corps command, but let me ask you --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: No. If you look at line 23 and 24, you'll see why
8 the witness answered the way he did.
9 MR. SACHDEVA:
10 Q. So would you know the names of all the reserve officers within the
11 corps command?
12 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know -- well, as far as I
13 know, the corps command, well, from this distance -- I don't really think
14 that it had any reserve officers. I'm not quite certain of that, but I am
15 more certain that the command of the corps did not have reserve officers.
16 Q. Well, assuming that they did, you wouldn't know the names of all
17 the reserve officers. Yes or no?
18 A. Well, from this distance, I cannot give you a yes-or-no answer.
19 Then, at that time, I knew everybody. And I was supposed to know
20 everybody, at that.
21 Q. Where was the procurement and supply department? Where was it
23 A. Well, it should have been in the logistics organ, the corps
25 Q. And the logistics organ was located where? Is that the 202nd
1 logistics base?
2 A. No. No, no. The logistics organ existed in the command of the
3 Pristina Corps. The 202nd base is something separate. The corps command
4 had its own logistics organ.
5 Q. Who was the head of the procurement and supplies section during
6 the time of the conflict?
7 A. I don't know who was the head, and I don't know whether that is
8 exactly what it was called; however, Colonel Petkovic, Bratislav Petkovic,
9 headed the logistics organ.
10 Q. You don't know who was responsible for procurement and supplies
11 within the corps command. Is that what you're telling the Court?
12 A. Oh, I don't know. These are internal organisational duties.
13 Q. So I take it, then, that if there was somebody called Tijanic that
14 worked for the procurement and supplies section, you would not necessarily
15 know that person. Is that right?
16 A. Since my organ dealt with personnel matters, all documents
17 starting with dossiers ended up at my organ, so I knew all the first and
18 last names from the corps command.
19 Q. Please tell the Court who was the head of the procurement and
20 supplies section during the conflict.
21 A. I don't know that, and I don't know whether such an organ existed.
22 There was a logistics organ.
23 Q. Now, you said that you had meetings with members of the corps
24 command on a -- on a regular basis, and you also attended collegium
25 meetings. Just tell me, who were -- who was present at those meetings
1 when you attended?
2 A. Well, as I said yesterday, I attended collegium meetings, that is
3 to say, of the collegium of the corps commander, up until the 30th of
4 March. After that, from time to time, I went to the commander for
6 At those meetings where I was present, at the collegium of the
7 corps commander, all members of the collegium attended, all members of the
8 collegium of the corps commander.
9 Now, who were these members? That is established in a document,
10 very specifically. I can mention their names, but during -- over time,
11 the names changed, depending on who had what duty. But I know the
12 organisational entities, who the members of the collegium were, and I can
13 tell you that, if you're interested.
14 Q. Who were the members of the collegium? Yes. Please -- please
15 tell us that.
16 A. Well, as far as I can remember, in addition to the commander, the
17 members of the collegium were the other -- the following persons ex
18 officio: The Chief of Staff of the corps, the assistant commander of the
19 corps for information and morale, the assistant commander of the corps for
20 logistics, the assistant commander of the corps for security matters, the
21 assistant commander of the corps for personnel and housing affairs, and I
22 don't know. I may have omitted someone or maybe I've mentioned them all.
23 Those were the persons involved -- or rather, the persons who headed these
24 functions were members of the collegium.
25 Q. And from the 24th of March throughout the conflict, how often did
1 these meetings take place?
2 A. From the 24th of March, 1999 and onwards, I don't know how the
3 collegium meetings of the commander went, but I know that I had meetings
4 that I attended in order to present a briefing. Sometimes it was every
5 seven days, sometimes every ten days or so, and sometimes perhaps even
6 more often, depending on the needs involved.
7 Q. And you also talked about other meetings; in other words, not
8 collegium meetings, where you would brief the corps commander. Were these
9 meetings just between yourself and the corps commander, or were there
10 other members of the corps command present as well?
11 A. As far as I can remember, most often the commander would call me
12 to the command post to issue me an assignment or for me to brief him about
13 the state of affairs in the garrison command and in my group. Most often
14 I was the only person in attendance.
15 Perhaps it may have been somebody else too, but I didn't notice.
16 For the most part, it was only me.
17 Q. And you spoke about the people that would be attending the
18 collegium meetings. For example, the Chief of Staff and the assistant
19 commander for information and morale. What was the name of the assistant
20 commander for information and morale?
21 A. The assistant commander for information and morale was Colonel
22 Mirko Starcevic, and then Colonel Dragisa Marinkovic took over from him.
23 Colonel Starcevic went to a new duty; he became assistant commander for
24 morale in the 3rd Army.
25 Q. How about the assistant commander for security affairs? What
1 would his -- what was his name?
2 A. The assistant commander for security was Momir Stojanovic,
3 father's name Bogoljub.
4 Q. Now, at these meetings where you attended, I take it that each
5 person responsible for their department would brief General Lazarevic on
6 the situation within their department. Is that right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And I take it that General Lazarevic would in turn brief the corps
9 command about the state of the -- state of the war and the -- the
10 efficiency or the effectiveness of the Pristina Corps Command operations.
11 Is that also right?
12 A. Well, things developed along those lines.
13 Q. And you also said in evidence that at these meetings there would
14 be discussions or there would be reminders that international humanitarian
15 law should be adhered to. Am I right in that?
16 A. Yes, you are right.
17 Q. And you said that these reminders would come -- would be made
18 every day.
19 A. Well, very often. Very often. From this time distance, I cannot
20 say whether it was actually every day, but it was that often that it
21 seemed like every day.
22 Q. Was it at every occasion when the corps command met?
23 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly whether it was absolutely every
24 occasion, but it was very often.
25 Q. And you also said that there was foreign media and you were able
1 to through the foreign media establish what was happening within Pristina
2 and also within Kosovo. Is that right?
3 A. Well, it's not right. It is not right. We had our own system of
4 information in the corps command, and foreign media for the most part we
5 did not follow. We did not listen to that. Only sometimes if someone
6 would get some information from that. However, our system of information
7 was based on the system of information of the army and our state.
8 Q. When you had --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered, and in
11 my modest view, there was no foundation or basis for that kind of a
12 question to be put by the Prosecutor. Having listened to this witness's
13 testimony yesterday very carefully, I did not ever hear him say that his
14 information was based on the foreign media. But he has already responded,
15 so thank you.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
17 Mr. Sachdeva.
18 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 I just for the record would note that yesterday the witness did
20 talk about foreign correspondence criss-crossing.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
22 MR. SACHDEVA:
23 Q. Colonel, during these meetings, I take it that there were
24 discussions about allegations of crimes that may have been committed by
25 members of the VJ. Did those discussions ever take place?
1 A. I've already told you that I was a member of the collegium until
2 the 30th of March. It is possible that that was discussed too. From this
3 time distance, I cannot remember that. But for the most part, in view of
4 my functional duty, I focused on personnel matters. And that is what I
5 was most interested in and that is what I paid attention to; namely, what
6 my own tasks were from that point of view and what I was supposed to do
7 about that. The rest was very important, but it did not preoccupy my
9 Q. Yes. I didn't actually ask what was your focus, but you agree
10 that at the meetings, at some of the meetings that you attended,
11 allegations of crimes committed by the VJ were discussed within that
12 group. Is that right?
13 A. Possibly. From this time distance, I really cannot remember.
14 Q. And what kind of allegations were discussed? Do you remember
16 A. Well, for the most part, organisational problems were discussed.
17 Our tasks related to defence, related to the combat training of units, for
18 taking measures in relation to morale, discipline, and order, then various
19 personnel matters, and many other topical tasks.
20 Q. I appreciate what you're saying; however, I want to concentrate on
21 the discussion regarding allegations of crimes committed by the VJ. And
22 what I want to know is what kind of information, what kind of allegations
23 were discussed at the meetings or at a meeting that you attended?
24 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we have
2 already got a clear answer to this question. This is the second or third
3 time that the question is being repeated. Thank you.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you say to that?
5 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I respectfully disagree. My -- I
6 submit that I have a basis to ask a further question about the subject
7 matter of the allegations, considering the witness did say that -- that
8 these allegations were discussed or there was a possibility that these
9 allegations were discussed.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, that's as high as it goes, possibly. However,
11 questions of this nature often elicit further information, so please
12 proceed with this question. If it's unproductive, then move to something
14 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm guided, Mr. President.
15 Q. Colonel, leaving aside what was usually discussed at these
16 meetings, with respect, as you said, to -- to other measures related to
17 morale and discipline, I want you to cast your mind back to the
18 information that may have been discussed about allegations of crimes
19 committed by the VJ. Can you tell the Court what kind of information was
21 A. I do not remember anything like -- anything like that. I know
22 that many terrorist acts were discussed in which our units and members of
23 the corps sustained losses. But as for these allegations that you are
24 asking me about, I really cannot remember.
25 Q. Do you remember that there were reminders of -- reminders to
1 adhere to international humanitarian law. Why were these reminders made
2 at the meetings?
3 A. At those meetings -- now, this is my assumption, my conclusion --
4 the people were reminded so that it be always at the forefront of their
5 mind, so that the officers could inform their subordinates about that.
6 And the logic behind it was probably that if you keep drumming something
7 in, repeating something, then it tends to stick in people's minds more
8 than if you never discuss it.
9 Q. I suggest to you, Colonel, that these reminders were made because
10 in fact the VJ were indeed committing crimes throughout Pristina and
11 Kosovo. Isn't that right?
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is absolutely not true --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what the foundation is
17 for this claim that is now put to the witness.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: The foundation is the inference that could be drawn
19 from the regular reference to the obligation to comply with international
20 humanitarian law. There is a basis for the question. So please continue,
21 Mr. Sachdeva.
22 MR. SACHDEVA:
23 Q. Colonel, I don't think you answered my question, or at least it's
24 not recorded in the transcript. What is your answer to that question?
25 A. Could you please repeat it. I would kindly ask you.
1 Q. I'm suggesting to you that the reminders to adhere to
2 international humanitarian law were made because the VJ were indeed
3 committing crimes throughout Pristina and Kosovo and Metohija. What do
4 you say to that?
5 A. Well, I can say not only that I don't agree with that. I can say
6 that this is not so. Particularly when it comes to the town of Pristina.
7 And it is not correct if you look at the whole of this area.
8 Q. Your evidence is that there were no crimes, no violations of
9 international humanitarian law in Pristina during the conflict?
10 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that if crimes were
11 committed - and I don't know that they were, because I didn't hear about
12 that - they were not committed by the army. And in particular, not in the
13 town of Pristina. I mentioned Pristina because I am really familiar with
14 the situation there; I know it best.
15 Q. So your evidence is that no member of the Pristina Corps within
16 Pristina committed crimes.
17 A. I am claiming here that such crimes were not committed by the army
18 in Pristina and that I don't know of those crimes.
19 Q. What crimes are you talking about?
20 A. I don't know. I am not talking about crimes. You are talking
21 about crimes. Yesterday and today I spoke about the crimes committed by
22 the terrorists. And as to what crimes you're talking about, I don't know.
23 Please do ask me.
24 Q. Do you know of crimes that were committed in Pristina by either
25 members of the police or the army?
1 A. I don't know of any such crimes.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned yesterday that General Lazarevic -- you met
3 with General Lazarevic on the 27th of April, 1999. And you -- you said
4 that you had asked him to come and visit the garrison. You remember that?
5 A. I remember that.
6 Q. And you said that he was not able to come that evening because he
7 was busy. Do you know why he was busy?
8 A. Well, I really couldn't tell you that, because I didn't know that
9 at the time and I don't know it now. And the commander is not duty-bound
10 to tell his subordinates why he was busy, but of course if he wants to do
11 so, he can.
12 Q. And at some point you went with General Lazarevic to the Grand
13 Hotel. Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes, but that was on the 28th.
15 Q. And when you went there, who else was present in the Grand Hotel?
16 A. Well, I can't really remember all the persons who were there in
17 the Grand Hotel. I know that there was the chairwoman of the Kolo Srpskih
18 Sestara, Mrs. Pavlovic. I think -- I'm not sure, that there were some
19 people from the media. I think that Colonel Starcevic was also there.
20 Perhaps some other people too. But I didn't really try and remember that.
21 These are the people that I remember, and that would be it.
22 Q. How often would you go to the Grand Hotel during the conflict?
23 A. Well, during the conflict, apart from that one occasion, as far as
24 I can recall, never again.
25 Q. But parts of the Pristina Corps were located in the Grand Hotel,
1 weren't they?
2 A. No. Only those elements that I told you about were actually
3 stationed in the Grand Hotel, and that would be the information centre and
4 that was the place where mail was exchanged. And the other floors were
5 used by the Sloga hotel company from Pristina. It is possible that those
6 premises were used by some other companies that actually rented it from
7 Sloga, but I don't know about that.
8 Q. If we could go back to Exhibit 5D00348, please.
9 And, Colonel, this is the document with respect to your garrison,
10 which we discussed earlier. And at the bottom of the page, in the
11 penultimate paragraph, it says, and I'll read it:
12 "As necessitated and in keeping with the situation, accommodate
13 the group in the general area of -- of the Pristina municipality, the
14 municipal court, and the premises of the PrK command, including the Grand
16 And my question is: What part of the group that is listed here
17 was accommodated in the Grand Hotel?
18 A. Well, let me explain this to you. When --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you explain it, would you read that
20 paragraph, please. Could you read it aloud to us, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.
22 "The group is to be deployed according to the need and in
23 accordance with the situation in the broader sector of the Pristina
24 Municipal Assembly, the municipal court, and the building of the PrK
25 Command with the Grand Hotel."
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. And you were going to explain?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is an area that forms a
3 triangle. The corners are the municipal assembly, the municipal court,
4 and the Grand Hotel, the PrK Command. This is the way in which an area
5 for the deployment both of units and of commands is defined in the
6 military. So the command -- the commander gave me the task to, in this
7 area that is bordered by those -- those points, deploy my command; and
8 that's what I did. I did it in such a way that I really deployed them in
9 this triangle, but no elements were deployed in any of the buildings that
10 are used to define this triangular area; in other words, they were not
11 deployed in the Grand Hotel, in the municipal assembly, because they were
12 housed in a building adjacent to the municipal assembly and some were also
13 housed in a hut. So it was -- they were deployed in this area as it was
14 defined, not in the buildings themselves.
15 MR. SACHDEVA:
16 Q. So from these three subgroups, including the command group, the
17 military court, and the group of the operations centre with the department
18 for air space situation reporting, none of those groups were deployed in
19 the Grand Hotel. Is that what you're saying?
20 A. I'm saying that none of these groups, none of these elements were
21 in the Grand Hotel. Moreover, in accordance with this phrase "in
22 accordance with the need," that -- in accordance with the basic concept of
23 the commander, I deployed some elements to an -- to an area 50 metres away
24 from this area, in the basement of the sports centre Boro i Ramiz, close
25 to the corps command building but not in the buildings themselves. This
1 is close to the Pristina stadium, the football club Pristina. That was
2 the air surveillance element.
3 Q. And in addition to the Pristina Corps Command, there was also a
4 military battalion --
5 A. Not next to but ... No. No, no battalion. There was no battalion
7 Q. But there was a Military Police Battalion in Pristina, wasn't
9 A. The Military Police Battalion existed as a unit of the Pristina
10 Corps, and after the aggression started, in accordance with its own plan,
11 it was deployed in an area defined by those plans. And for the most part,
12 I was not aware of the location, but I do know that its task was inter
13 alia to secure the corps command post.
14 Q. And did the Military Battalion -- Military Police Battalion also
15 provide security to the garrison?
16 A. As far as I know, the garrison -- or as far as the garrison
17 facilities are concerned, no.
18 Q. And what was the strength of this Military Police Battalion, if
19 you know?
20 A. Well, as I sit here, I can say it was somewhere between 350 and
21 400 people.
22 Q. And I take it that all of these people were armed as well.
23 A. They were armed.
24 Q. Now, you remember yesterday we discussed -- or it was discussed
25 about the artillery from Vranjevac being fired at the village of Koljevac
1 [phoen]. Do you remember that?
2 A. The village of Kojlovica. That's what you were referring to.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I remember that it was discussed yesterday.
5 Q. And in relation to the town of Pristina, it's correct, isn't it,
6 that the -- these two villages, Vranjevac and Kojlovica are situated on an
7 elevated position.
8 A. Vranjevac itself is partly in the low grounds and some are in --
9 on the high ground. But Vranjevac as a whole is a residential area and --
10 between one and another house it is not more than 5 metres. The streets
11 are narrow, maybe 2 to 3 metres wide.
12 The village of Kojlovica is not on the high ground.
13 Q. But compared to the centre of town, it would be elevated, both
14 those places. Isn't that right?
15 A. Not -- not Kojlovica, no.
16 Q. And from the centre of town or from the area of -- of Pristina
17 town, it would be possible to -- to see the village of Vranjevac, would it
19 A. From the centre of Pristina -- well, depending on where you are in
20 the centre, because there are quite a few tall buildings in the centre.
21 It -- you have a line of sight to just parts of Vranjevac, not the whole
22 of Vranjevac.
23 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I actually would like to show the
24 witness a map that was marked by one of the witnesses in the Prosecution
25 case, and I ask leave to do that because it was not on my initial list.
1 And the reason why I had not put it on my list was that I did not
2 anticipate the detail that my learned friend would go into with respect to
3 the markings of where her house was.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection as a matter of
6 principle, because my humble opinion now is that an exception is becoming
7 a rule now.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that doesn't assist the Chamber. If you
9 would address the issue that's advanced that because you went into some
10 detail in this, it's only right that the evidence that we've heard about
11 the matter should be put to the witness. And as a general principle of
12 fairness, it's even a question of being fair to the -- the witness, as
13 well as to the interests of justice and to the witness who previously gave
14 evidence here. Now, what do you have to say to that point?
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I am not opposed to the map being
16 shown. My colleague gave me a map that was not announced earlier as an
17 exhibit, and I agree with him that it might be exhibited during the
18 testimony of witness Filipovic. I agreed to that. But this objection of
19 mine was submitted as a matter of principle, as I have already said. As
20 for this map, the map that I was given a hard copy of, I do not oppose
21 that because -- although it does not have an IC number at all.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: You're -- well, does it have a number and is it
23 already part of the process?
24 MR. SACHDEVA: The ICU map that I want to show is -- is indeed --
25 does have a number. It's IC 15.
1 But my learned friend is right that --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: No. Just -- just a second.
3 Now, the principle on which you're standing is what?
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're talking about two
5 maps, and I agreed that my colleague show a map that is unmarked and does
6 not have an IC number. That is what we agreed upon before he started and
7 I'm not opposed to that. I fully agree to any other proposals related to
8 Pristina maps, irrespective of when.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: So what is the objection in principle that you
11 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I withdraw any -- my objection, if
12 any. Maybe I misunderstood what was going on. Maybe Mr. Fila wishes to
13 answer something.
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will add only in one
15 sentence what the concern of the Defence is.
16 As you know, I never objected to any documents submitted by the
17 Prosecution. What concerns me and us is that your rule that when the oath
18 is taken, the documents have to be stated, the ones that are going to be
19 used in cross-examination have been -- has been subjected to many
20 exceptions. It's not the exceptions that I'm worried about, but by the
21 waste of time. If anybody's interested in time here - in addition to
22 yourself, Your Honour, of course - it is me; I hate wasting time. There
23 is this unnecessary discussion about every such document, translated, not
24 translated, is needed, is not needed, surprised, not surprised. Why are
25 we surprised by anything at this stage? I would only be surprised if they
1 were to give up on Sainovic altogether. I cannot be surprised by anything
2 else. We've been through everything so far. That is what I wanted to say
3 by way of a caution. That is what we discussed amongst ourselves. That
4 is what we talked to the colleagues. I don't really want to waste time.
5 And now you've wasted time on account of me, too. We've lost time on
6 account of that. Thank you.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that sounds to me more like a expression of
8 frustration rather than a carefully formulated legal objection.
9 Mr. Cepic would have a foundation for an objection in principle if
10 he could demonstrate to us that the Prosecution ought to have foreseen the
11 detailed exploration of the relative locations of Kojlovica and Vranjevac.
12 The Prosecution tell us that they could not foresee that from the notice
13 given and sought therefore, in fairness to all involved, to present the
14 map which was marked by an earlier witness on precisely this point.
15 Now, if there is no reason to object on that basis, then all our
16 time has been wasted by a frivolous objection based on a principle that I
17 am yet unable to -- to divine.
18 So we shall further avoid the waste of any further time and
19 proceed with the Prosecution putting this document to the witness.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Sachdeva.
21 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 If I could first ask for the ICU -- the -- the map that was marked
23 by the witness, which I recall was IC 148. If that could be brought up on
24 the screen, please.
25 Q. Colonel, yesterday you marked this map and -- and figure number 2
1 was -- was what you said was the location of Mrs. Bala's house. You
2 recall that?
3 A. What was the house?
4 Q. It's the house in Lapski Street, number 30 Lapski Street.
5 A. I marked Lapska Street; although, I -- I underline that once
6 again. I said yesterday that this is a very poor map for orientation.
7 For such a serious occasion -- I do apologise to the Trial Chamber, but
8 this is really a caricature of a map. I have some maps with me, I have
9 some topographic maps, too, and the rest. We'll try with this one.
10 There's no problem with that. I put all the circles there. That's true.
11 But it is a very poor map for this kind of orientation.
12 Q. And the evidence that the witness gave herself in court -- I'm
13 going to show you where she marked her house.
14 If I could have IC 15, please. Is it possible to have them
16 Now, you would agree, Witness, that the circle that Mrs. Bala had
17 marked as her residence is just above the -- the bazaar, the market? Do
18 you agree with that?
19 A. This circle that was drawn here was drawn here but not by the old
20 market. What is very important here is the old market. This is no old
21 market. This is the current market, before the aggression and during the
23 Q. Is --
24 A. It's a completely different market. The old market is a
25 completely different market. But never mind. Even if she lived there,
1 even from that place, she can see Vranjevac even less -- or rather, I beg
2 your pardon, Kojlovica. Even less. She can see Kojlovica even less from
4 Q. Do you agree with the possibility that if she was on the top of
5 her building, that being a five-storey building, that her view would be
6 enhanced with respect to Vranjevac?
7 A. From the top of the building, it is only logical that there is a
8 better view than from the ground level. However, irrespective of that,
9 one cannot see Kojlovica. The village of Kojlovica cannot be seen.
10 Q. My question was referring to Vranjevac.
11 And would you agree with me also, Colonel -- would you agree with
12 me also --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if your -- if your question does relate to
14 Vranjevac -- Vranjevac, we must have an answer to it.
15 So can you answer that, please, Mr. Filipovic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vranjevac can be seen. Not all of
17 it, though. Most parts of Vranjevac can be seen, because Vranjevac is on
18 some slopes. And on this elevation, to the north of the railroad between
19 Pristina and Podujevo. However, Lapska Street was Lapska during the time
20 of the aggression, where it was. It cannot be moved anywhere else. Where
21 the circle is, that is where Lapska Street never was.
22 I have a map here of the hotel as well, a map of Pristina from
23 that period of time. That is not where Lapska Street is. Lapska Street
24 goes from the area of the railroad towards the interior of the city.
25 MR. SACHDEVA:
1 Q. Witness, I -- I didn't ask you about Lapska Street. I'm simply
2 asking from that location that is marked on this map, marked by the
3 witness herself, there is a view --
4 A. From that location, one can see Vranjevac; or rather, most parts
5 of Vranjevac, but not Kojlovica.
6 Q. I take it you also agree that with binoculars the view would be
7 even further enhanced from the top of that building.
8 A. With binoculars, the view can be much better, but not Kojlovica.
9 Kojlovica cannot be seen even with astronomical binoculars.
10 Q. And you agree with me that from that location, from the top of her
11 building at that location, she would have been able to see into the centre
12 of town. Do you agree with that?
13 A. Parts of the centre of town, yes; those that are not overshadowed
14 by taller buildings. Because in Pristina there are even 15-storey
15 buildings and her building has only 5.
16 Q. Now, Witness, do you know of the -- the Jugopetrol warehouse in
18 A. I did not quite understand. Could you please repeat that.
19 Q. Wasn't there a Jugopetrol warehouse, a fuel depot in Pristina?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was it not located near the Pristina Corps Command?
22 A. Well, "nearby" is a relative thing. This is where it was: It was
23 near the Orthodox cemetery of Pristina. Well, it was about 150 to 200
24 metres away from that cemetery. It was about 100 metres away from the
25 main road going from Urosevac via Pristina to Kosovska Mitrovica. I think
1 that that's the depot that you're asking me about.
2 If it is that depot, then it is where I said.
3 Q. And this Jugopetrol warehouse, this fuel depot, are you able to
4 say how many fuel tankers it -- it consisted of or -- or how large the
5 complex was?
6 A. I cannot tell you exactly, because I really don't know that or was
7 that within the scope of my work. I used to know a person called Lalic
8 who was the director. That is what I can tell you about that depot.
9 Nothing else.
10 Q. And I take it that the military would -- would obtain its fuel
11 from that depot. Is that right?
12 A. I'm not aware of that, because that was not within the scope of my
13 work, but I do know that the army on the basis of contracts and plans of
14 the ministry got supplies according to a certain scheme from the territory
15 of the entire state. As for this warehouse, this depot, whether fuel was
16 obtained for the army from there, I don't know about that.
17 Q. But I take it -- I take it you agree that fuel was obviously
18 important for the running of the army, especially during the conflict.
19 A. Fuel was very important. And we did get fuel supplies from the
20 territory of our country. What else could we do but get supplies of fuel
21 in order to defend our country?
22 Q. And so it's likely that if there was a fuel depot such as what
23 we've been discussing, it's likely that the military would -- would be
24 taking fuel from that depot. Would you agree with that?
25 A. That is possible, but it had the legitimate right to get these
1 supplies. But whether it was precisely from there and whether that is
2 what the plans said, well, that is something that I don't know.
3 Q. If we could go back to Exhibit P2004, please.
4 Witness, this is a document that we're familiar with. If you look
5 down the bottom, it says that "On the night of the 12th and 13th of April,
6 the following installations in Pristina -- in the Pristina sector were
7 hit." And then there's a sentence that says: "The following civilian
8 targets were attacked in Pristina," and one of them is the Jugopetrol
9 warehouse. I suggest to you that the Jugopetrol warehouse was not a
10 civilian target.
11 A. I claim that the Jugopetrol depot or warehouse was a civilian
12 target. Well, the army drinks water too, so probably the waterworks
13 therefore become a military objective. Nearby Badovac, near Pristina,
14 that is where the waterworks were bombed. Probably these people were
15 guided by the fact that the military drink water too. If that logic were
16 to be applied, then there cannot be a single target that would not be hit.
17 Water was drunk by the military and by the population, Serbs, Siptars,
18 Turks, Roma, we all drank water. And then we're wondering why the
19 population was moving out, the Serb and the Siptar population. That would
20 be my answer.
21 Q. Witness, you must -- you must agree with me that a facility such
22 as this one --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: You've got his answer. I mean, we'll assess the
24 answer in the light of all the evidence. We need to move on here.
25 MR. SACHDEVA: If I could ask for Prosecution Exhibit 1996 to be
1 brought up, please.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue.
4 MR. SACHDEVA:
5 Q. Colonel, this is the -- this is the record of minutes at a meeting
6 held by the MUP staff in Kosovo and Metohija in Pristina on the 7th of
7 May, 1999. And as you will see from the front page, the Deputy Prime
8 Minister, Mr. Sainovic, attended the meeting, in addition -- in addition
9 to various officials from the MUP. And I'd like you -- I'd like to go to
10 page 5 of the English, please, and page 4 of the B/C/S.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fila.
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Well, I can see that he read "Sainovic"
13 for some reason. I mean, the Prosecutor. But I see no reason why this
14 document should be shown to the Pristina Corps commander, who is an
15 officer of the Yugoslav Army, except if you need confirmation for the
16 umpteenth time that Mr. Sainovic attended this meeting. I don't know why
17 we are honoured in this way. The witness is an officer of the Army of
18 Yugoslavia and he should be asked whether this meeting took place and how
19 and why, but what is the foundation for that? So I object to this.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you're being unduly sensitive, Mr. Fila,
21 because no question has yet been asked, and I don't at the moment know
22 what the purpose of this is, and there's certainly no evidence against
23 Mr. Fila [sic] contained in what's been said so far.
24 Mr. Cepic, you also wish to object?
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Only if you allow me, Your Honours.
1 As far as I can remember, my client, General Lazarevic, was not allowed to
2 explain this document in the course of his examination. Thank you very
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give me a --
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] The explanation was that he did not
6 attend this meeting.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain this.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- well, please be quiet for the moment, would
9 you, until we deal with the situation. There's been an objection taken.
10 They wish to prevent you answering, because they think it's unfair to
11 their client, so you mustn't intervene in that -- in that situation.
12 Can you give me a transcript reference, please.
13 MR. CEPIC: I will try to do my best. In next three minutes we
14 will have that reference, please, or earlier.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it needs to be now, because -- or as quickly
16 as you can, because you wish to oppose the question even being addressed,
17 which is ...
18 Well, perhaps we should hear what the question is, first of all,
19 and then you can let me know whether you insist on the objection.
20 Mr. Sachdeva, what is the question?
21 MR. SACHDEVA:
22 Q. You will see, Colonel, on this page that the -- the chief -- the
23 chief of the SUP in Pristina, Mr. Janicevic, is giving a report. And I
24 want you to look down at the middle of the page, or towards the latter
25 part of the page. Do you see where it says: "The military is not taking
1 sufficient measures and most crimes are being perpetrated by VJ members"?
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what is your purpose in relying on this
3 document to put your question? When you've had answers to this already.
4 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, I think it's an issue of
5 credibility. The witness who was -- who was in Pristina throughout the
6 whole war period has given evidence to the Court that he does not know of
7 any crimes that were committed in Pristina by VJ members.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah. So his evidence is clear. So what are you
9 now trying to do?
10 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm trying to show the witness that there is a
11 report that -- by the -- by the Ministry of the Interior that the VJ
12 members were committing crimes. I'm simply going to ask him whether that
13 causes him to reflect on his answer.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: No. He's already answered the matter clearly.
15 You're putting, yet again, a matter that's already been put. This system
16 does not allow for the putting to every witness of every document of any
17 nature in the case that might -- that might contradict his answer. You
18 will have an opportunity to make submissions about the value to be placed
19 on this in relation to his evidence and his evidence in relation to this
20 in due course. So please go to something else.
21 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm guided, Mr. President.
22 Q. Colonel, yesterday we -- we discussed this leaflet by the KLA.
23 You remember that? Allegedly by the KLA.
24 A. I remember.
25 Q. And do you remember that it appeared to emanate from the president
1 of the Republic of Kosovo, Mr. Ibrahim Rugova?
2 A. Well, I don't know who that originated from. I don't know that.
3 But the flyer was found there. And that was not the only one; there were
4 several. And secondly --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Just -- just one moment.
6 Please ask a question, because I think I've already explained to
7 you that this method, which we're all familiar with in -- in common-law
8 jurisdictions of establishing a basis for a question by asking witnesses
9 to confirm things, where the witness that we have -- the witnesses we've
10 experienced here want to answer and deal with all the nuances that
11 might -- might be behind the question, does not help us to make progress.
12 It helps in this system to get to the nub of the matter quickly. So
13 please ask the question.
14 We -- we took the same line with -- with a number of Defence
15 counsel questions in cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses earlier,
16 particularly in Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination. Again, you are coming
17 from a fairly similar jurisdictions and are familiar with an approach
18 which does not suit the type of evidence or the experience of -- of the
19 witnesses that we are dealing with.
20 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Colonel, you don't know who produced this document, do you?
22 A. I don't know that. I can only assume or speculate that it came
23 from the terrorist centres; but I don't know. I don't know who wrote
24 those leaflets that were thrown out of the plane. I really don't know
25 that. But they were not thrown from our planes. That's for sure.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you -- are you saying this document was thrown
2 from a plane?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, not this one.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was just one in the context of
6 the leaflets.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: You see how -- you see how easy it is to cause
8 confusion by not just concentrating on the question and answering the
9 question you're being asked.
10 Mr. Sachdeva.
11 MR. SACHDEVA:
12 Q. You don't know, Witness, do you, whether it was produced by the VJ
13 or from Belgrade? You don't know that, do you?
14 A. My army would never have done that. It never did that, and this I
15 rule out.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic, first of all.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please have a
18 reference for this interesting claim in order to make it easier for us.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please not overlap.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, the -- your objection is -- is far too
21 late. The witness had answered the question before you were getting to
22 your feet.
23 And had you done so, the answer might have been different, but the
24 question has been answered.
25 And I'm sure you're not unhappy with the answer.
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, not because of the answer, but
2 just so that I know for future reference. Maybe I have simply missed
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it wasn't based on -- on evidence. It's a --
5 it's a question which simply asked the witness to confirm that he doesn't
6 know a particular source. But I -- it certainly didn't strike me as a
7 suggestion that there was evidence to that effect.
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And I am -- yes.
10 Mr. Sachdeva, I -- if there had been objection taken to that
11 question, it would have been sustained. Please continue.
12 MR. SACHDEVA:
13 Q. Colonel, you told the Court that you were in Pristina, apart from
14 that one day, from the onset of the conflict until the end of the
15 conflict. That's right, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you've given evidence about KLA activities in Pristina and
18 also in the general area of Pristina, and you've given the Court a lot of
19 information about which positions in Pristina were hit by NATO. That's
20 right, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So it's fair to say that you are in a position to have known what
23 was taking place in Pristina during the conflict.
24 A. I was in a position to know everything that happened in Pristina,
25 things that I saw, things that I myself experienced, and things that were
1 within the purview of my job. Many things that were outside of my purview
2 were not something that I had to know and were not something that I could
3 know, but most of the things that were within my purview, well, I was
4 informed about them. I knew about them.
5 Q. I take it the -- the bakery shops were not within your purview.
6 Is that right?
7 A. Well, bakery shops were not within my purview, but that doesn't
8 mean that our families -- my family, for one, bought bread there to eat.
9 And during the war I was in contact with my family.
10 Q. I take it that also the -- the functioning of the -- the pension
11 office was not within your purview, as it related to civilians.
12 A. Well, yes, that relates to civilians, but many family members of
13 mine were pensioners, many of my friends, and I had many Siptar friends.
14 They received their pensions. There were retired officers, Siptars, my
15 very good friends, who received their pensions. There were those who
16 became renegades, who became terrorists. And I had some very good friends
17 and they told me about that and I saw them when they received their
18 pensions, because the cashiers' desks where they received the pensions
19 were very close to where I was at the Union Theatre, 100 metres away from
20 there, this is where makeshift offices were put up after NATO air-strikes.
21 And that's all I have to say about that.
22 Q. And you know that there were, if I'm right, two train stations
23 within the general area of Pristina. Yes?
24 A. Well, in the territory of the municipality of Pristina, there was
25 only one train station, not two.
1 Q. And given that you have a -- a fair amount of knowledge as to what
2 was going on in Pristina, you must have seen the hundreds of civilians
3 taking those trains away from Pristina. Isn't that right?
4 A. I did not see that.
5 Q. You must have known about it through other means. You must have
6 heard about the civilians that were leaving Pristina on the trains on a
7 regular basis during the conflict.
8 A. I didn't hear anything about people leaving Pristina on a regular
9 basis. I did hear about people leaving it by train, yes.
10 Q. And that's what my question was. So you heard that there were
11 hundreds of people -- I put it to you that you must have heard that there
12 were hundreds of people leaving by the train, leaving Pristina, on a
13 regular basis throughout the war. You agree with that.
14 A. I don't agree with the claim that they were leaving on a regular
15 basis, and I don't agree that I heard a figure, but I did hear that people
16 were moving out of Pristina by train, and I also know that they -- that
17 the inhabitants of Pristina left it by bus.
18 Q. And those inhabitants who were leaving by bus and by train, they
19 were Albanian civilians, weren't they?
20 A. That's not correct. Both Siptars and Serbs, and in fact Turks and
21 Roma left it too. I know that trains were used by Siptars more often than
22 by Serbs in order to flee NATO air-strikes, and buses were used more often
23 by Serbs. But one can conclude that all modes of traffic were used by the
24 population as it moved out of Pristina, and members of all ethnic groups
25 did so. That would be my response.
1 Q. Well, it's just an assumption on your part that they were leaving
2 because of NATO strikes, isn't it?
3 A. Well, it is not an assumption on my part. I personally know some
4 of these, and I participated in some elements.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... Do you really
6 want to ask that question at this stage in this examination when you've
7 heard already the witness's position on it? We know it's a controversial
8 issue. All the evidence will have to be assessed.
9 Have you got much more cross-examination?
10 MR. SACHDEVA: Not much more --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
12 MR. SACHDEVA: -- Mr. President, but --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: You've already dealt with fleeing to some extent,
14 but -- well, I suppose if you're not allowed to continue, then no doubt
15 there'll be re-examination. So perhaps you better continue with this and
16 clarify it.
17 MR. SACHDEVA:
18 Q. Witness, you did not speak to every single Albanian civilian that
19 was leaving by train or buses, did you?
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, there's a limit to how many -- I mean, some
21 questions are just silly. There comes a point really when we have the law
22 of diminishing returns in cross-examination. Do you really seriously
23 think that that's a reasonable question to ask in this trial?
24 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm just trying to establish the basis for his
25 knowledge, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you ask that question. Let's hear what the
2 answer is.
3 MR. SACHDEVA:
4 Q. What's the basis for your knowledge as --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. The question was: Did you speak to
6 every single Albanian civilian that was leaving by train or bus?
7 What's the answer to that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is elicirate [as
9 interpreted] to expect me to do so, even if I wanted to. Sometimes as I
10 passed by I would speak to some of them on this topic, asking them why
11 they were leaving, why they were leaving on -- in those columns, not
12 moving out. And I told you what the answer was I got from them. They
13 said, "I -- we don't know when -- where we're going." This is -- this
14 pertains to the columns that passed by my headquarters of my command.
15 Some other columns, some other people who were moving out were motivated
16 by other reasons. They would have given other explanations. I don't know
17 what these explanations were. I don't know nothing about that.
18 So I was only talking about those things that I know of. As
19 regards people moving out, I can tell you that I participated and I
20 assisted in the -- I assisted those people to move out. I am sorry that I
21 did so. I may have overstepped the boundaries of my powers, but in
22 accordance with the basic concept of the corps commander, indicating that
23 civilians should be assisted, when the manager of the public bus company,
24 Mrs. Murganic, I gave a certain amount of fuel when she said that citizens
25 want to move their women, their children, and their elderly urgently. And
1 I approved that some fuel could be dispensed in this way so that people
2 could move out to Nis and to other parts of Serbia in -- because people
3 wanted to protect their children, their women, and the elderly. And
4 that's what I did, and that's all I have to say.
5 MR. SACHDEVA:
6 Q. And those Albanian citizens that were leaving Pristina, they were
7 being escorted by members of the VJ, weren't they?
8 A. That is not correct. Or actually, I never saw that, and I was
9 never informed of any such thing.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Would this be a convenient time to interrupt?
11 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Then just before we rise, there's been
13 some indication, Mr. Ivetic, that you have a problem with tomorrow's
14 proposed schedule.
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. With the extent -- with the
16 extent it's sitting, although I don't know to what extent Mr. Delic will
17 start today, we have the possibility that we might be coming up for an
18 hour or so of cross-examination of Mr. Delic, who is another one of the
19 witnesses that I had to pick up for Mr. Lukic, and I don't know the status
20 of Mr. Lukic at present, but I suspect that will -- I've been preparing as
21 if I will have to handle this witness. It's the witness for which we have
22 14 days' worth of transcripts for Milosevic and a number of exhibits just
23 for purposes of the direct.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: If that's your -- if that's your concern, he is
25 scheduled for six hours, so there's little or no prospect that you would
1 have to cross-examine him tomorrow. Unless that were to change
3 And at that stage, if -- if we came to the end of his evidence in
4 chief, then would be the time to raise the concern.
5 MR. IVETIC: To raise it. I can -- I guess I can agree with that,
6 for the purposes of that aspect, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
8 Mr. -- yes, Mr. Ivetic -- sorry, Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, perhaps
10 the reason I'm going to mention is a far more banal one, but some of our
11 colleagues have already booked flights, and I think that Mr. Fila already
12 bought a ticket to fly to Belgrade tomorrow at 6.00, in order to use this
13 weekend to spend it at home with their families. Perhaps it's a much
14 simpler reason, but that would be the motive. Could our sitting hours be
15 at least half an hour shorter so that they could make it on time and catch
16 that flight? Even at the expense of the break, if necessary. Thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: The trouble is that we don't have that flexibility.
18 We can't not have these breaks, for reasons of interpretation, and we
19 can't get into the courtroom earlier than 2.15, unless something happens.
20 So -- now, if -- the reason we thought it would be possible to do
21 this is until yesterday, late yesterday -- and you must have thought we
22 were sitting tomorrow afternoon anyway. So I'm surprised that travel
23 arrangements have been made so quickly. But our court schedule was for
24 tomorrow afternoon. We were forced out of the morning to accommodate the
25 Prlic trial, which is dealing with a videolink.
1 I know that earlier it was in the morning, but it was changed to
2 the afternoon last week. So if -- if -- I mean, Mr. Fila, is this
3 something you've done since yesterday evening, made an arrangement since
5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you can see, there's
6 two of us. So I'm going to leave at any rate.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Yes, I -- so I think we will sit that day as
8 scheduled. I mean, I have a travel arrangement myself, which isn't far
9 away from that, and I anticipate making it. So we will sit according to
10 the schedule that was intimated tomorrow.
11 We'll rise now.
12 Mr. Filipovic, we need to break again, and we will resume at ten
13 past 6.00.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Sachdeva.
19 MR. SACHDEVA: Mr. President, that -- that's the
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Filipovic, you gave evidence about a -- the
24 lack of damage to religious buildings in Pristina. Are you familiar with
25 a mosque known as the Emperor's Mosque?
1 A. Yes. I am very familiar with that mosque. I finished high school
2 10 metres away from that mosque.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Was it burned on the 15th of June?
4 A. On the 15th of June? What year?
5 JUDGE BONOMY: 1999.
6 A. I'm not aware of that; although, I was in Pristina then.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: We've seen a photograph showing it burning and been
8 told that that was on the 15th of June, 1999.
9 A. That was even close to my command post. I would have had to see.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's look then at P1789 and at page 9.
11 Do you recognise that?
12 A. Well, I see that it's the mosque. It's probably that one.
13 Otherwise, I cannot tell by anything whether that's the mosque or whether
14 it's another mosque, but I see the minaret and the mosque. You can see
15 the mosque in the background, but I'm not sure that the part you can see
16 in front is the mosque. The mosque is the minaret and what is right next
17 to the minaret.
18 As for the right-hand part of the picture where the flames are,
19 that's not the mosque.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, is it the historical archive of the Islamic
22 A. Possibly. That's where a similar building was, and close to it is
23 Sahat Kula, the watch-tower. But it is not the mosque. It is a building,
24 but it is not the mosque.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: You say, though, that you -- were you were based
1 near there. You cannot tell me if this is the Islamic community's
2 historical archive?
3 A. Possibly. It may be that. I know some facilities individually,
4 but I don't know whether that was precisely the archive of the Islamic
5 community. I know that building very well. I remember it very well. 10
6 or 15 metres away from it is the Orthodox clock tower, Sahat Kula.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it possible you knew this building as the
8 Islamic library?
9 A. Well, I didn't know that, but I know the building. I know that it
10 was there, and I know that it was not used for residential purposes.
11 There was an institution there, but I really did not know at the
12 time what it was.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Just a brief question, with your
16 leave, Your Honours.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Cepic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, it's me again. You mentioned that the
19 military territorial detachments were re-subordinated to the Pristina
20 Corps. Do you know whether some brigades were also re-subordinated to the
21 Pristina Corps? Apart from the basic units.
22 A. In addition to the military district, the 202nd base, there were
23 brigades too. The 252nd Armoured Brigade from the 1st Army, the 211th
24 Armoured Brigade from the Nis Army, and some other brigades too, the
25 175th, and so on.
1 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much, Colonel. I have no further
2 questions for you.
3 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for these buildings, they were
6 guarded by English soldiers after KFOR got in. I'm sorry, I have to say
7 that. The mosque near my command post was secured by English soldiers.
8 They even had sandbags there. And there was this place behind the
9 sandbags, and that is where English soldiers from KFOR were on guard duty.
10 I personally saw that. They were about 50 metres away from this building.
11 As a matter of fact, close to that location, counting on the
12 reliability of the English soldiers from KFOR, one citizen near the
13 mosque, Dragan Lazic, left his car for them to take care of and his car
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it may be of some significance for you to
16 know that the evidence we have is that this happened that day shortly
17 before the arrival of KFOR.
18 Thank you. That completes your evidence, Mr. Filipovic. I thank
19 you for coming to give evidence. You may now leave the courtroom.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, and good evening to
21 all of you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, your next witness.
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness is
25 General Bozidar Delic.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Good evening, Mr. Delic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
5 speak to truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
10 WITNESS: BOZIDAR DELIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Cepic on behalf of
13 Mr. Lazarevic.
14 Mr. Cepic.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examination by Mr. Cepic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] General, good evening.
18 A. Good evening.
19 Q. Well, you -- it was a long wait, but we begin finally. Could you
20 please tell me for the record your full name.
21 A. I am retired General Bozidar Delic, father's name Nikola.
22 Q. General, could you please give me only the major posts that you
23 held during your military career.
24 A. During my military career, I performed all the command functions
25 from the platoon commander level to the corps commander level. At the end
1 of my military career, I was in the General Staff of the Army of Serbia
2 and Montenegro. I was the deputy chief of the operations administration,
3 and I was the chief of the operations administration at one point and I
4 retired from that post, in fact.
5 Q. What military schools did you graduate from?
6 A. I have all the military schools in the JNA: The military academy
7 of the ground forces in Belgrade and Sarajevo; the command and staff
8 school in Belgrade; and the National Defence School, the war college, in
10 Q. General, what is your present occupation?
11 A. I am a deputy, a member of parliament in the Serbian parliament or
12 assembly, and I am the deputy speaker of that assembly.
13 Q. Thank you, General. Could you please tell us, what duties did you
14 have in 1998 and 1999?
15 A. In 1998 and 1999, I was the commander of the 549th Motorised
17 Q. Sir, could you please tell us, what were the chief activities of
18 your brigade in 1998 and 1999, up until the beginning of the aggression
19 against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
20 A. The chief tasks of my brigade were as follows: First of all, to
21 train and educate soldiers. That was up until a time in 1998. Securing
22 military facilities and installations, securing the state border,
23 primarily the in-depth security of the state border, and ensuring that all
24 the roads in my area are passable.
25 What I said about the training of the soldiers, up until March of
1 1998 the basic training of the soldiers was done in my brigade, but as of
2 March 1998, up until the end of the aggression, we only carried out the
3 second stage of the training; the basic training was carried out in other
4 units outside of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.
5 Q. Thank you, General. You mentioned the securing of the state
6 border. I would like to know, what was the length of the border belt at
7 the state border that was secured by the units of your brigade?
8 A. The units of my brigade secured the larger or the largest part of
9 the border with the Republic of Albania and a part of the border with the
10 former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, as it is called. All in all, it
11 would be about 150 kilometres of state border.
12 Q. Thank you, General.
13 MR. CEPIC: Could we have in e-court system Exhibit number 5D877.
14 Q. [Interpretation] General, this document that you see in front of
15 you, is this a document that originated from your brigade?
16 A. Yes, this is a document dated February. It was drafted in my
18 Q. What are these dates here? So we start with the second passage.
19 Could you just please tell us very briefly.
20 A. Here where we have the dates, all the dates are in January. These
21 are the border incidents on the state border in my area of responsibility.
22 Q. We see that there is a substantial number of those in January.
23 Could you please tell us: As the aggression loomed near, did the number
24 of border incidents increase?
25 A. Yes. In 1999, despite the OSCE presence, virtually every day
1 there would be those border incidents. I can see that we have 13 of those
2 listed here. And they continued on in January and February, March, all
3 the way up to the beginning of the aggression.
4 Q. Thank you, General. Could you please explain to me very briefly
5 what was the procedure when a border incident occurred.
6 A. The border was secured by small units, seven to eight people
7 strong. There would be six to seven soldiers and one officer, commanding
9 The procedure was as follows: If it was apparent that these
10 people carried weapons, they would be stopped. If -- in fact, they would
11 be stopped if they carried weapons, they would be asked to drop [Realtime
12 transcript read in error "draw"] the weapons, to put their hands up, and
13 to surrender.
14 What I say here about them carrying weapons, I say that because if
15 they did not carry weapons, they would be violating the state border
16 regime and they would be treated in a different manner.
17 If they fired on the people securing the border, which would be
18 most often the case, fire would be returned in order to neutralise them,
19 capture them. In some situations the purpose would be to prevent them
20 from getting into our territory or, in the final analysis, to destroy such
21 a group.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment, Mr. Cepic. I assume that line 20
23 the word should be "asked to drop the weapons." Should it?
24 If you intercepted someone carrying a weapon, you would ask them
25 to do what with the weapon?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To drop their weapons.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order was to drop the weapons.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] General, if there was an incident, did the
8 investigative organs of the OSCE mission go to the site or anyone else, in
10 A. If you're talking -- if you're asking me about 1998, there is a
11 difference between 1998 and 1999 -- or rather, there is a difference
12 between what happened in 1998 until May and afterwards, for the rest of
14 When there was an incident, especially if there were any
15 casualties among the army troops or among the terrorists or those who
16 violated the state border regime, an investigative judge would visit the
17 scene. He was supposed to come from the Nis military garrison. Crime
18 scene technicians from my brigade would also go to the scene, and a local
19 mixed commission would also be summoned from our organs and also from
20 Albania. That was how it was until sometime in May.
21 After that, the contacts ceased and the local mixed commissions
22 from Albania refused to come to the scene of those incidents. And once
23 the OSCE mission was in place, it was notified of any -- of all such
24 incidents and they tried to visit all the scenes of such border incidents.
25 There were some problems, because there was a large number of such
1 border incidents, and it was a mountainous area in wintertime. So the
2 teams which were supposed to come from Prizren were sometimes unable to
3 arrive at the scene in the same day, because they had gone somewhere else
4 to verify some other incidents. So they would then come the next day.
5 Q. Thank you, General. We have seen some footage of a border
6 incident at Liken Mountain. We heard General Maisonneuve, who testified
7 about that. Now I would like to move on to something else related to
9 MR. CEPIC: Could we have in e-court system 5D683, please.
10 Actually, 863.
11 Q. [Interpretation] General, do you see this document that's in front
12 of you on the screen?
13 A. Yes. This is a document from 1998 originating from my brigade,
14 and I signed it.
15 Q. Thank you. We can see here in item 1 that prior to opening fire,
16 an assessment should be made whether there are any monitors from the
17 international community present there.
18 Now, my question to you is: What was your relationship with the
19 foreign monitors and observers?
20 A. It was a correct relationship on both sides, from our side, and in
21 most cases, from their side too. We were responsible for their security
22 and safety. In fact, our state was. And we, as the representatives of
23 the army, and also the representatives of the police, we were duty-bound
24 to ensure that within our areas they can move about and that they are
25 safe, lest there should be any unpleasant situations or lest the
1 worst-case scenario should come true, lest there should be any casualties.
2 And as far as I know, only two of the mission members were
3 wounded, because they activated a mine that had been laid by the
4 terrorists and they were wounded. As far as I know, throughout their
5 presence in Kosovo and Metohija, none of them were killed.
6 Q. General, what was the basis for this order that you issued?
7 A. This order was issued pursuant to an order from the Pristina
8 Corps, and this order is actually referenced here. The number is listed
9 here, and the date is the 10th of July.
10 Q. Thank you. General, we heard that you said that there was an
11 increase in border incidents. Were there any incidents in the hinterland
12 up until the beginning of the aggression?
13 A. Well, I and my brigade were in charge of the border most of all.
14 I referred to the situation at the border in that order. But throughout
15 Kosovo and Metohija, there was an increase of incidents in 1999. Most of
16 these incidents took place on the roads. Both civilian vehicles and
17 police vehicles, the latter in particular, and the army vehicles, came
18 under attack, came across mines, or were targeted by hand-held rocket
19 launchers, and so on. And something that is peculiar for this period: A
20 large number of Albanians, loyal citizens of the Republic of Serbia, were
21 killed in that period, as were Albanians who in late 1998, sometime in
22 September or October, surrendered their weapons to the army or the police.
23 The OSCE received daily reports and so did we, and bodies of those
24 Albanians were found in many locations throughout Kosovo and Metohija,
25 including my area.
1 Q. General, could you please clarify, where were you born and where
2 did you spend a substantial part of your life?
3 A. I was born in the vicinity of Djakovica, and that's where I lived
4 until I completed my secondary school. When I left to study at the
5 military academy, and up until 1995, I only went there to visit my parents
6 on my annual leave. And from 1995 onwards, from the 6th of February,
7 1995, I came to the Prizren garrison, to the 549th Brigade, where I was
8 first the Chief of Staff, and then from August of 1997, I was the
9 commander of that brigade.
10 Q. Thank you, General.
11 MR. CEPIC: Could we have Exhibit number 5D878, please.
12 Q. [Interpretation] While we're waiting for the document to appear on
13 our screens, before the war, was -- were there zones that were under the
14 control of the KLA?
15 A. Yes. In some territories, from the beginning of 1998, but
16 especially in February and March, there were a few territories that were
17 under the control of the terrorists.
18 Q. Could you just tell us briefly, in your own area of
19 responsibility, very briefly, which territories were under the control of
20 the KLA?
21 A. In my area of responsibility, especially the territory that is
22 near Djakovica, that is the territory that includes the villages of
23 Glodjane, Jablanica, Kraljane, Crmljane, Bec. Then another territory near
24 Orahovac, that is the territory that included the villages from Gornji and
25 Donji Potocani via Drenovac to the village of Zatrice and the village of
1 Petkovic. Then the entire territory around Malisevo. Then the territory,
2 sometime from June 1998, the territory of the villages of -- well, the
3 villages that are in the triangle of roads, so to speak: Zerze-Prizren,
4 Prizren-Suva Reka, Suva Reka-Orahovac, not to mention all of them
5 specifically. Gornje and Donje Ratimlje, Studencane, Samodreza, not to
6 mention all of them. Then Veljka Hoca, Mala Hoca, Celine, Brestovac,
7 Ratimlje, Nogovac. And a territory around Suva Reka, which is a territory
8 that had Budakovo in its central part, but it's Budakovo, Macitevo, it's
9 that mountainous area.
10 Q. Thank you, General.
11 What was the situation in 1999?
12 A. In 1999, as I've already said, from the beginning of 1999 the
13 terrorists, despite the presence of the OSCE mission, staged incidents
14 every day and they extended the territory that they kept under their
15 control in relation to the territory that they held sometime in July 1998.
16 So in my assessment, already by the month of February they held about 50
17 per cent of the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, especially in the
18 central part of that territory that they held, where the town of Malisevo
19 is and the region of Drenica, the Drenica Mountains, the mountain of
20 Milanovac. That's the area.
21 Q. Thank you, General. The document that we see right now on our
22 screens in front of us, is this a document of yours?
23 A. Yes, this is a document that I personally wrote to the corps
25 Q. Tell me, we see here a description of the roads, that some of them
1 were interrupted.
2 A. Yes. For me as commander, the major problem was precisely that,
3 the fact that roads from the territory of Metohija going to the territory
4 of Kosovo, towards Pristina -- already in the months of January and
5 February they were partly closed, and it was very risky to take these
6 roads in individual vehicles, quite impossible in military vehicles. When
7 convoys travelled down these roads, they had to have heavy security.
8 Q. General, would you please look at the eighth paragraph of this
9 document. I think that it's on page 1 of the English too. It says: "The
10 entire territory of Milanovac is under the control of the STS."
11 A. I've found it.
12 Q. Could you read it.
13 A. "The entire territory of Mount Milanovac, which is bordered by the
14 towns of Suva Reka, Orahovac, and Malisevo, is under the control of the
15 Siptar terrorist forces."
16 Q. Could you please read the next paragraph.
17 A. "According to our information as well (a reliable source), the
18 territory between Prizren, Suva Reka, and Orahovac has recently also been
19 taken almost entirely by the Siptar terrorist forces."
20 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Please.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know roughly from when this document is?
22 A. February 1999.
23 Q. Thank you, General.
24 MR. CEPIC: Could we have the second page, please. Count 4.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please look at the second paragraph, in
1 relation to paragraph 4.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The second paragraph.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could the OSCE carry out -- or rather, did their activity have any
6 effect on the KLA?
7 A. Although we expected that, obviously, judging by this large number
8 of incidents, the OSCE could not have any effect on the terrorist forces.
9 Q. Thank you. General, these KLA activities, did they lead to the
10 civilian population moving out?
11 A. As far as the Serb and Montenegrin population is concerned, most
12 of them moved out in 1998 already from those villages in my area where
13 there were only a few houses respectively. So in 1999, the Serb
14 population remained only in a few villages; that is, Velika Hoca, where
15 only Serbs live, and the village of Novake, where only Serbs live. Then
16 there were also Serbs in Smac, a few houses; in Zojic, a few houses; in
17 Rastane, a few houses; and in Musutiste, which is a big village, it has a
18 population of over 2.500. Half of the population were Serbs and the other
19 half were Albanians.
20 Q. Tell me, did both Serbs and Albanians move out?
21 A. As far as Albanians are concerned, I know that in 1998 and 1999
22 people were moving out. In 1998, especially in the month of July, when
23 this anti-terrorist action started. I had occasion several times on the
24 ground to see that when the police would show up or when the army would
25 show up, columns would be set up in villages consisting of tractors and
1 other vehicles and that they would start leaving the villages concerned.
2 Usually, the column would leave part of the village and move towards the
3 army and the police and another part of the column, or a different column,
4 would go in the opposite direction, if I can put it that way, towards the
5 woods, towards the mountains. Often, especially this other part of the
6 column, we could see that directly even with the naked eye, and sometimes
7 we used binoculars as well. Sometimes they were followed by these forces
8 of the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army, the UCK, that is.
9 As the OSCE came in, the population returned to their villages
10 within my area of responsibility, but I know that within the area of the
11 Drenica mountains, that is, the part of Kosovo and Metohija where Malisevo
12 is in the centre, I know that during the OSCE mission and up until the
13 beginning of the aggression part of the population was outside their
15 Q. Thank you, General.
16 As far as villages are concerned, what was the basic principle of
17 the KLA or UCK in relation to villages?
18 A. In 1998 and in 1999, very often terrorists attacked from the
19 villages themselves, because roads went through villages. However, what
20 would happen would be that sometimes the civilian population was not in
21 the village itself. They had been moved to another village beforehand.
22 Or if this attack would take place, say, against smaller units of the
23 police -- in most cases it happened to the police, attacks at individual
24 patrols. When there would be intervention by stronger forces, when they
25 would come to the aid of the attacked units, one could see that the
1 terrorists were using the population as a human shield, although they
2 believed and said that they were actually helping their population go to
3 some other areas, deeper into the mountains or into the woods.
4 There is also the term of "two villages" that is -- that exists in
5 military practices. I saw that in 1998 and 1999 as well. One village
6 would be in-depth as a logistics base, and the previous village that had
7 been emptied, so to speak, at a given point in time terrorist forces
8 appear there. They set up an ambush. They attack the military or the
9 police from these ambushes, causing losses in their ranks, and then they
10 would withdraw to the village that was their logistics base. Then again
11 they could change back into civilian clothes, and from there they can
12 either go to other safer areas or simply stay there.
13 Q. Thank you, General. We are now going to move on to the beginning
14 of the war. Could you please tell me -- actually, it's better if we have
15 the map on our screens before that.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Previous translation continues] ... 32, please.
17 5D1332, please.
18 Q. [Interpretation] General, is this your map?
19 A. Yes, this is my work map.
20 Q. I chose this one because, frankly, its quality is the best in
22 I'm going to ask you to explain and indicate on the map what area
23 of defence you took up.
24 MR. CEPIC: Could we zoom in, please. Zoom out, please.
25 Q. [Interpretation] General, would you like it to be zoomed out now,
1 or do you think it's right now?
2 A. Well, I'm going to deal with part of it, and then if you can
3 later --
4 Q. No, no. If you start your sketch on this format, we have to
6 A. Can the map be moved up and then we will see the area that I'm
7 trying to show. If the entire map can be scrolled up. Or if not, could
8 it be zoomed out.
9 MR. CEPIC: Could the map please be scrolled up a bit. Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] General, when did you take up -- or rather, what
11 was the area of defence that you took up?
12 A. Well, do you want me to draw that down the borderline?
13 Q. We can see that clearly on the map. We would like to see the
14 actual points, from where to where, and also locations in the interior.
15 A. I'd like to draw it along the borderline.
16 Q. Please go ahead.
17 A. [Marks]. That would be the borderline. Roughly, that would be
18 the direction of my zone.
19 Q. What is the length of the front line, General?
20 A. Along the line of the border, that's about 150 kilometres.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, what happened there? What -- what was
22 put on the map? Oh, sorry, I'm looking at one which is on the other side
23 of the screen. Sorry.
24 MR. CEPIC: I'm sorry.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, now I see it.
1 MR. CEPIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. Do I have to repeat any
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, that's okay. I can see it clearly now.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. General, you said 150 kilometres, that that was the length of the
6 front line.
7 A. Yes, that is the length down the borderline, along the front line,
8 as we say.
9 Q. What about in depth?
10 A. Up to 20 kilometres.
11 Q. All right. Perhaps this is my last question for today, because
12 our time seems to be up. Could you please tell me, for a motorised
13 brigade like your brigade was, how big should that area be?
14 A. According to the principles involved, it should be a manoeuvring
15 ground, 12 to 15 kilometres; in mountainous and hilly ground, 15 to 20
16 kilometres; and in mountainous ground like this one, it can be even up to
17 25 kilometres, in terms of the front line. And in depth, it can also be
18 20 to 25 kilometres.
19 Q. Thank you very much, General.
20 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Delic, is -- is this map one that was
22 originally drawn by you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is my work map.
24 One can see that this is the 9th of April, 1999. I originally ordered it
25 to be drawn, but I'm not the one who actually does the drawing. It's my
1 operations man, my operations officer who does that, an officer who was
2 specially trained to draw maps, but according to the elements that I give
3 him, according to the elements that I directly give him on the map. He
4 directly puts that on the map.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you arrange for Mr. Cepic and his team to get
6 this map?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I know that I had this map in
8 2005 when I was a witness at the trial of the late President Milosevic.
9 Perhaps this map dates back to that time and has been here since then.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And was it you that arranged to get the map for
11 your previous appearance as a witness here?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 2005? In 2005, the then-legal
13 advisors of President Milosevic provided a large number of maps. I
14 remember that. Among others, I think there were 15, 20 of them. One of
15 them is this map. I'm not sure, but perhaps this map was submitted to the
16 Office of the Prosecutor as far back as in 2002 through the investigator
17 in Belgrade, who asked for my work maps. And I think that all of those
18 that were there then in the archives were handed over to him. But I'm not
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, do you know the source of this map?
21 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We took this map in
22 the JDB electronic system. If you are asking specifically about our
23 Defence team, we took it from the Milosevic files, and that's why it's so
24 good in e-court. Unfortunately, our equipment is not that good.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, do you know the source of this map?
1 MR. HANNIS: No, I don't, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: If you can find out any more on that subject for
3 tomorrow, then I would be grateful.
4 MR. HANNIS: I will --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
6 MR. HANNIS: -- make my best efforts. Thank you.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 We have to interrupt your evidence there -- oh, I'm sorry.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. Can we
10 please have an IC number assigned to this map.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 149, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 Mr. Delic, we have to interrupt there for the day and resume
15 tomorrow. That will be at 9.00 tomorrow morning. I don't think in this
16 courtroom. I think -- Court III. So you need to be back ready to resume
17 at that time.
18 Meanwhile, as you know from your previous attendance here, it's
19 vital that you should have no communication with anyone at all, no matter
20 who, about the evidence in this case, and that means any part of the
22 Put what's going on to the back of your mind. Talk to people
23 about other things and come back here refreshed, ready to resume at 9.00
25 Now could you please leave the courtroom with the usher.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
5 November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.