1                          Monday, 28 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, your next witness?

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you, Your

 7    Honour.  Our next witness is Sasa Antic.

 8                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, Mr. Antic.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you please make the solemn declaration to

13    speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

14    you.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please be seated, and make yourself as

18    comfortable as you can; we appreciate that special arrangements are

19    necessary to ensure that.  It doesn't look very comfortable from here,

20    but ...

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot make myself more

22    comfortable than this.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  [Previous translation continues] ...  on behalf of

24    Mr. Lazarevic.

25            Mr. Bakrac.

 1            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                          WITNESS:  SASA ANTIC

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                          Examination by Mr. Bakrac:

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Antic, good morning.

 6       A.   Good morning.

 7       Q.   Would you please state your full name for the record, your date

 8    and place of birth for the record.

 9       A.   My name is Sasa Antic.  I was born 3rd July 1970 in Gnjilane.

10       Q.   Mr. Antic, did you give a statement to this Defence team on the

11    5th of January, 2008?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Did you have occasion to review this statement, to read it, and

14    sign it?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Does it reflect everything that you stated to the Defence team of

17    General Lazarevic?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   If we were to ask you the same questions today, would you provide

20    the same answers?

21       A.   Yes, of course.

22       Q.   Mr. Antic, this Court and the Office of the Prosecutor and my

23    colleagues from other Defence teams are in possession of your statement;

24    therefore, it would not be necessary to repeat what is contained in it.  I

25    would only like to ask you some additional questions, or rather, to
 1    clarify certain points.

 2            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Before that I would kindly request

 3    that this statement, which is Defence Exhibit 5D1398 be admitted into

 4    evidence.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Mr. Antic, you said you were born in Gnjilane.  Gnjilane is in the

 8    province of Kosovo and Metohija, correct?

 9       A.   Yes, in the eastern part of Kosovo and Metohija.

10       Q.   In paragraph 14 you stated that together with some civilians of

11    Albanian ethnicity you discussed the reasons why they were leaving their

12    places of residence, and some of them told you that they would go either

13    to Macedonia or to Gnjilane.  Did you have occasion during the war before

14    and during the NATO air-strikes to go to Gnjilane; and if so, how often?

15       A.   Yes, certainly.  My entire family lives in the broader area of

16    Gnjilane, more precisely in a village which is around 15 kilometres away

17    from Gnjilane itself.  Before the war, as often as I was able to, I went

18    to visit my family; and during the war, I believe I was able to visit

19    three times.

20       Q.   In Gnjilane and around it, were there any civilians before and

21    during the NATO air-strikes and were there more during the air-strikes?

22       A.   You could observe in the streets that there were many more

23    civilians than resided there before the war began.

24       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Antic.  In paragraphs 15 and 16 of your statement,

25    you said something about the losses of the battalion where you served.

 1    Could you tell me, if you know, how many men were killed from your

 2    battalion during the war and how many were wounded?

 3       A.   In my battalion, specifically in my company, because they were all

 4    members of my company, a total of 15 men were killed, 13 soldiers, one

 5    NCO, and one officer.  And there was certainly more than 20 members of the

 6    battalion who were wounded.  I cannot give you the exact number, but it's

 7    certainly over 20, between 20 and 30.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 16, you described an incident on the road

 9    from Klina to Djakovica where part of the unit of the 52nd Military Police

10    Battalion was bombed.  You said five soldiers were killed as well as NCO

11    Boban Milic.  Do you know if an officer from the command of the Pristina

12    Corps was killed on that occasion as well?

13       A.   Yes.  On that occasion in a combat vehicle of the infantry there

14    was Lieutenant-Colonel Simovic from the command of the Pristina Corps, but

15    I cannot tell exactly which position he occupied in the command.  He was

16    killed together with those five soldiers and with my second lieutenant,

17    Milic, who was also deputy commander of my company.

18       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Antic.  In paragraph 22, you described an

19    assignment on the 27th and 28th of April in a valley called Caragoj or

20    Reka valley.  You said that you had received an assignment to move your

21    forces on the 27th and 28th of April, including a part of your company, in

22    order to prevent a spillover of terrorists from across the border.  My

23    question is:  Do you recall from whom you received this assignment?

24       A.   In the period you mentioned, the company that I commanded at the

25    time was resubordinated to the 125th Motorised Brigade.  Sometime on the

 1    26th I was told - I don't remember if it was the commander of the 125th or

 2    its Chief of Staff - to report to the forward command post in Djakovica to

 3    receive an assignment.  After that, I went to Djakovica and I reported to

 4    that forward command post.  The forward command post -- and I must say, I

 5    don't know Djakovica very well although I went there more than once.  The

 6    forward command post was located somewhere behind the main post office.

 7    Those were two buildings, the entrance was between them, and there was

 8    something like a cafe or a restaurant in the same building where the

 9    forward command post was, but I don't know what it was called.

10            When I arrived, I was of course stopped, in keeping with the

11    procedure, outside the building.  I was asked what my business was.  I

12    introduced myself.  They contacted their superiors and allowed me to

13    proceed into the lobby on the ground floor, where I was again stopped by

14    another guard from the security detail of the forward command post to whom

15    I had to introduce myself again and to state my business.

16            I was told to wait, the time it takes someone to come downstairs

17    from the premises of the forward command post and to escort me upstairs.

18    Somebody from the forward command post came down; I don't recall who it

19    was and I didn't know all of them who worked there, and took me into a

20    room.  I said I was there to receive an assignment; however, at that time,

21    if I remember well, the Chief of Staff of the corps was not there, so I

22    had to wait for a while.  I can't tell you how long.  Anyway, I was

23    waiting in that room, and after a while the Chief of Staff arrived and it

24    was he who gave me that assignment for the dates that you mentioned.

25       Q.   When you say, Mr. Antic, that you received that assignment, was it

 1    a written decision or an order in writing for this action?

 2       A.   No.  The assignment was given me verbally, and I can tell you what

 3    it was.

 4       Q.   We have that in your statement.  Let's not waste time.

 5       A.   Anyway, it was given me verbally.

 6       Q.   Did you receive a map of a decision of some kind?

 7       A.   No, no.  As I said, it was a verbal assignment.  I didn't receive

 8    any documents from the Chief of Staff of the forward command post.  He

 9    just told me what the assignment was, where I was supposed to move and

10    what my destination was, the length of the route, from which point to

11    which point, what had to be done.

12       Q.   You say the route you were supposed to move on.  Of course you

13    were told which route, but how were you able to locate that route?

14       A.   Well, every officer, especially a company commander as well as

15    platoon commanders, have their own topographic maps.  It's usually a

16    large-scale map, 1:50.000 or 1:10.000 [as interpreted].  From the

17    beginning of the war from when I began to work at the Pristina Corps from

18    1993, that is, I had my own map that I was issued with.  And on that map I

19    sized up the situation and realized what I was asked to do.  Of course, if

20    you'll excuse me, if you are working on a certain segment of the

21    territory, because we were in the zone of responsibility of the 125th

22    Motorised Brigade, sometimes you are given large-scale maps for the

23    specific territory where the unit is located but it's a blank map without

24    any markings, classic, topographic, military map.

25       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Antic.  I'll move on now to paragraph 26 where you

 1    described in detail the conflict you had, the clash you had, with members

 2    of the KLA, and when sunrise came you say on the spot from which the

 3    terrorists fired you found a dead terrorist dressed in a camouflage

 4    uniform.  Did you find anything else on that spot where you found that

 5    body and around that place perhaps?

 6       A.   In addition to what I stated in my statement and what the

 7    terrorist had with him, that is, his personal weapon, an automatic rifle,

 8    a hand-held launcher, and a couple of hand-grenades; on the spot from

 9    which the terrorists fired at us, at sunrise we found some bloodstains or

10    pools of blood or -- and parts of discarded military equipment, the

11    military vest they used, some ammunition, some parts of military

12    equipment.  I can't remember exactly after all this time, but we found

13    bloodstains and military equipment.

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Two matters just I think at this stage.  If you

15    look at line -- or page 6, line 17, you said that you usually had a

16    large-scale map, 1:50.000 or 1 in -- what was the other possible scale?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 25.000.  We say a large map in the

18    army, 1:50.000 and 1:25.000 are large maps and they are used for basic

19    units at the level of platoon, company, and such.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  And the other matter is in the paragraph 26 where

21    you refer to arresting three inhabitants of Ramoc, are these the same

22    three people as you had told to stay behind to secure their own houses, or

23    are these different people?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the same three persons

25    from Ramoc.  They stayed back, but these are the same persons.
 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 2            Mr. Bakrac.

 3            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   Mr. Antic, in paragraph 27 you state how far your unit got.  This

 5    is what I want to know:  You say your mission was completed about 200 or

 6    300 metres north of Korenica village.  Did you get as far as Meja village?

 7       A.   No.  Meja was not along my axis of operations at all.  As far as I

 8    remember, in relation to my final destination, Meja was maybe 2 or more

 9    kilometres off to the south-east, I mean from the place where I completed

10    my mission.

11       Q.   Mr. Antic, we read your statement and you're telling us today that

12    some components of military police battalion, the component of which you

13    were in command, had been resubordinated at one point to the 125th

14    Motorised Brigade, whereas the remaining components stayed behind to

15    perform security tasks and other tasks that the military police battalion

16    was in charge of.  Do you know anything about the fact that at the time

17    you were given this mission and during the actual mission the corps

18    commander, General Lazarevic, was in fact staying in Djakovica?

19       A.   No.  I never knew that General Lazarevic, corps commander, ever

20    stayed in that sector or in Djakovica specifically.

21       Q.   I have another question left for you, Mr. Antic.  Before you were

22    subordinated to the 125th during the fighting at Kosare, you had been

23    involved in securing the corps command.  Can you tell us your impressions

24    of General Lazarevic as a commander.  How did he go about issues related

25    to discipline and was he held in high esteem among his soldiers?  Tell us

 1    if you know, please.

 2       A.   The corps commander, General Lazarevic, in my opinion was an

 3    exceptional officer, a very fair person and a conscientious professional

 4    as well as a model military officer who was always working in keeping with

 5    all the military regulations.  Since that was the nature of my job, I used

 6    to meet quite many generals before the war.  I was working in the Pristina

 7    Corps territory, and I was performing security tasks there.  I know that

 8    in terms of cooperation, in terms of how he treated his inferiors, his

 9    subordinates, General Lazarevic was the epitome of a professional soldier

10    and he always put service first.  I think he even paid more attention than

11    anyone else in his shoes would have to his men, his subordinates and to

12    everything that he was in charge of.

13       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Antic.

14            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

15    questions.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

17            Mr. Ivetic -- sorry, Mr. Ackerman.

18            MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

20       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Antic.

21       A.   Good morning.

22       Q.   My name is John Ackerman.  I am one of the lawyers for

23    General Pavkovic in this case.  I understand that during your proofing

24    with regard to your testimony that you had an opportunity to observe a

25    video that I think came from the Kosovska Junaci barracks.  Is that
 1    correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  Over the previous days, I was shown a video clip.

 3       Q.   Just so we have it properly identified in the courtroom and so

 4    that you can advise the Chamber that this is the same video that you

 5    witnessed, I would like to now play what is 4D18 for you.

 6  (redacted)

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10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

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24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

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10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12            You can continue with playing the video, Mr. Ackerman.

13                          [Videotape played]

14            MR. ACKERMAN:  I think that completes the video, Your Honours.  I

15    don't know that there's any need to stay in private session.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  We shall return to open session.

17                          [Open session]

18            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

20            MR. ACKERMAN:

21       Q.   Captain Antic, that video that was just displayed here in court,

22    was that the one that you have previously seen?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   The legend on the video indicates that it was from Kosovska Junaci

25    barracks on the 18th of March, 1999.  Were you present at that time?

 1       A.   Yes, I was.

 2       Q.   And did you hear the remarks that were made by General Pavkovic

 3    during his visit to the barracks on that day?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

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10  (redacted)

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24  (redacted)

25    said.  In the recording, though, I do recognise one of my officers,
 1    Lieutenant-Colonel Tegeltija, commander of the 2nd Platoon.  He was seated

 2    somewhere in that recording.

 3       Q.   All right.  Do you know if at that time, mid-March of 1999, there

 4    was some concern among the ranks of the VJ that there might be a ground

 5    attack coming across the border in the near future?  Was that something

 6    that they were preparing for and concerned about?

 7       A.   There was certain indications that there would be an attack coming

 8    soon.  Any officer, any military man would feel a certain concern.

 9       Q.   Would it be an additional concern if you were in a military unit

10    that was facing that border trying to prepare to repel an attack of that

11    nature that there might be KLA units operating behind your units that

12    could attack you from the rear?  Would that also be a concern?

13       A.   That would definitely be a concern.  Whenever you have the enemy

14    behind your back - I'm referring to what you said about the KLA units -

15    this can always be a problem in terms of you being successful in defending

16    the state border.  It can interfere with your tasks, with your defence

17    plans.  If indeed it is the case that you have a unit such as a KLA unit

18    behind the back of a unit which happens to be defending the state border.

19       Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.

20            MR. ACKERMAN:  I have no further questions.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

22                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic.

24            MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 1       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Antic, sir.  My name is Dan Ivetic, and as

 2    counsel for Mr. Sreten Lukic I will have just a handful of questions to

 3    pose for you today, and they will be dealing with the paragraph 22 of your

 4    statement wherein you describe the activities of the 27th and the 28th of

 5    April, 1999, in the anti-terrorist action Reka.  And I see that the usher

 6    has left us.  I was going to ask for P615 to be called up, page 21 in

 7    e-court, and if possible we could have someone in court assist you to make

 8    it more accessible for you to view and perhaps mark on the map that will

 9    come up some of the things that I will be asking you so that we can move

10    through this quickly.  And for purposes of the map if we could zoom in

11    from the second quadrant on the top on the right side, that is the part

12    that I will be focusing on.  Page 21 in e-court.  If you can zoom in on

13    the second -- right there, if you could zoom in just a little bit more on

14    that first -- that one square right there all the way to the right.

15    Perfect.

16            Sir, looking at this portion of the map, do you recognise this as

17    being the Reka or Caragoj valley that you mention in paragraph 22 of your

18    statement?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Thank you, sir.  And I would please beg your indulgence, if you

21    could, to using a red pen which the usher I think will now provide for

22    you, if you could illustrate for us the axis of operations, or [B/C/S

23    spoken], that you describe which you follow-- which was followed by your

24    unit as you say from Dobros to just outside Korenica.

25       A.   [Marks]
 1       Q.   Thank you, sir.  And could you mark at the beginning of that line

 2    the number 52 to denote -- the number of your unit to denote -- because I

 3    will be asking for the other participants to be marked according to your

 4    knowledge.

 5       A.   [Marks]

 6       Q.   Thank you, sir.  And again, I would beg your indulgence if you

 7    could in the same manner depict the direction and the axis of operations

 8    of your left neighbouring friendly force, the elements of the 63rd

 9    Parachute Brigade.  Also marking at that origin point the 63 to denote to

10    differentiate their line from the other lines you will be drawing.

11       A.   [Marks]

12       Q.   Thank you.  And now with the assistance of the usher I would ask

13    that the colour be changed to blue if it's available so you could depict

14    the same direction and path of -- or axis of operations of your right-hand

15    neighbouring friendly force, the PJP of the Serbian MUP.

16       A.   [Marks]

17       Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you.  Now, we've heard testimony here and

18    from General Zivanovic regarding his 125th Motorised Brigade, and you have

19    also mentioned the 125th.  Are you familiar with and are you able to draw

20    in for us the area of blockade that this -- that this unit held during

21    this action I believe from Smonica to Berjan and Nivokaz as

22    General Zivanovic said; are you in a position to be able to mark that on

23    the map in red and with a denotation for 125 to differentiate from the

24    other forces depicted.

25       A.   As for the unit carrying out the blockade, I wasn't given a

 1    precise definition of who would be doing what and where.  I was only told

 2    at the forward command post that some elements from my unit, the 549th and

 3    the 125th, those units that were busy securing the state unit would use a

 4    minor part of their forces to carry out the blockade west of the

 5    Molic-Brovina-Popovac-Sisman road, the road that continues in that general

 6    direction.  I'm not really able to draw for you with any degree of

 7    accuracy what was going on, and I don't know how many men were involved in

 8    that particular mission.

 9       Q.   That's fine.  If we can have -- one moment, please.  And I presume

10    just for the sake of clarity what you have just told me would apply also

11    to the units that were located on Cabrat and the elements of the 549th

12    Motorised Brigade as well; is that correct?  That you would not be able to

13    accurately depict those on the map and their areas of blockade?

14       A.   Everything that applies to your previous question applies to this

15    one too.

16            MR. IVETIC:  If we can have this marked as the next available IC

17    number, I can move on with questions.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be IC172, Your Honours.

20            MR. IVETIC:

21       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Antic, and I thank you for your indulgence in

22    depicting this force.  It makes it easier for us to situate ourselves

23    since we were not on the ground there.  Now, am I correct, as you have

24    depicted on the map that the forces that were clearing the terrain, your

25    unit, the elements of the 63rd Brigade, as well as the MUP advanced in a

 1    line, careful not to intersect their axis of movement during the entire

 2    action in the Reka or Caragoj valley?

 3       A.   I don't think you're right in at least one way.  We weren't

 4    clearing the terrain.  My mission was to use my forces in order to search

 5    the terrain and prevent any spillover of the KLA forces that were

 6    operating in the Caragoj or Reka area along my axis of operations only to

 7    prevent any spillover by those forces towards the border and any link-up

 8    between those forces and those terrorist forces that were operating from

 9    Albania into our territory.

10       Q.   Let me try and clarify -- we are at the end -- I apologise, I

11    cannot have the transcript and the map up at the same time due to

12    technical difficulties, that's why I had to pause -- strike back and

13    forth.

14            Would you agree with me that essentially the three elements or

15    forces that are depicted on this map that you've drawn in, these advance

16    of units, if you will, had the same basic assignment just in a particular

17    assigned direction or axis of operation, as I think you called it?

18       A.   I know about my unit and about my mission.  I had my own axis of

19    operations which had been assigned to me.  This was an axis along which I

20    was to perform my mission.  As for what the MUP units involved in this had

21    or my left-hand neighbour, I can only say that I wasn't privy to the

22    detail of their mission.

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12       Q.   Mr. Antic, just a couple more questions for you.  First of all,

13    with respect to the advancing units that you have drawn in for us on the

14    map, which I again thank you for.  During the course of the two days of

15    this action did you have knowledge of any fire being opened up or any

16    combat engagement on the direction of the 63rd Parachute Brigade elements?

17       A.   Do you mean from my left flank or did the KLA take action against

18    the 63rd Parachute Brigade?

19       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

20       A.   I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think that there were some

21    skirmishes, as mentioned in my case, I think that they had similar cases.

22  (redacted)

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 8  (redacted)

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  I don't understand exactly what that answer amounts

10    to.

11            Are you saying that you could not see Korenica?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Korenica, as for all of Korenica,

13    from the position where our task ended we could not see Korenica because

14    we were quite literally in the forest, about 300 metres - just a moment,

15    please - about 300 metres to the north-west of Korenica.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

17            Mr. Ivetic.

18            MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

19       Q.   Mr. Antic, I would indulge one more question.  You mentioned

20    a "vod" or squad in your testimony.  Could you tell us the usual numerical

21    strength of a military police "vod," or squad, since I don't think that

22    the denotation has been previously utilised in court?

23       A.   I cannot tell you what is customary, but I can tell you what it is

24    in terms of establishment.  In terms of establishment a platoon, "vod,"

25    I'm talking about military police units, one platoon has three squads and

 1    one squad, "odeljenje," consists of ten men.  However, however, if you're

 2    asking me specifically about this particular mission, these platoons that

 3    I had, or rather, my engaged personnel were incomplete because we had

 4    sustained major losses before that in the area of Karaula, Kosare, and

 5    Morina, or rather, Rasa and Kosare, so we were insufficiently manned.  We

 6    did not have enough personnel.  We did not have the personnel strength

 7    required by establishment.

 8       Q.   Thank you for your time, and I apologise for any inconvenience it

 9    caused you.  You I have no further questions for you, Mr. Antic.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

11            Mr. Antic, you will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

12    Mr. Stamp.

13            Mr. Stamp.

14            MR. STAMP:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                          Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

16       Q.   Good morning, Mr. Antic.

17       A.   Good morning.

18       Q.   If I could get straight to one of the last things you were saying,

19    and I will try to be very brief with this examination.  You were saying

20    that you were about 300 metres from Korenica in a forest.  If the village

21    was, in fact, burning, couldn't someone see it from 300 metres?  Couldn't

22    someone see the smoke?

23       A.   Maybe someone could see smoke, but there was no smoke.  I didn't

24    see any smoke.  If there was no smoke, if I did not see any smoke; I don't

25    know if I would have seen it had it been there.
 1       Q.   You described in your statement the chain of command down to the

 2    basic units in your company, and you also said that they were

 3    resubordinated to the 125th Brigade in early April.  Did you, from time to

 4    time, notwithstanding the resubordination, receive commands from

 5    Major Kopanja, the battalion commander?  Or if I could rephrase that.  Did

 6    the resubordinated company receive commands from time to time from the

 7    battalion commander?

 8       A.   While I was there, and I was there two or three times, I cannot

 9    say exactly how many days or weeks that was, I did not receive a single

10    order from the --

11       Q.   I'm afraid I'm not getting translation.  Thanks.

12            Yes, could you repeat what you just said.  I'm sorry.

13       A.   While I was there in that area, that is to say with that company

14    that was attached to the 125th, or rather, resubordinated to the 125th

15    Motorised Brigade, I did not receive any orders from the establishment

16    commander of the battalion, that is to say Major Kopanja.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Where is the reference to the resubordination,

18    Mr. Stamp?

19            MR. STAMP:  I think it's at paragraph 15 is --

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  And is that the only reference?

21            MR. STAMP:  There is an allusion to paragraph 17, I think.

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.  Thank you.

23            MR. STAMP:

24       Q.   Did you -- did the resubordinated battalion -- resubordinated

25    company receive any tasks from the head of security, that is,

 1    Lieutenant-Colonel, I think it is, Stojanovic, while they were

 2    resubordinated to the 125th Brigade?

 3       A.   While I was there Colonel Stojanovic, I think he was

 4    Colonel Stojanovic, he was a colonel during the war I think, he did not

 5    come and see my unit.  I did not receive any orders from him.  I already

 6    told you that we had these shifts in the personnel that was resubordinated

 7    to the 125th Brigade.  I cannot say whether he came there while somebody

 8    else commanded that unit.  However, I don't think that Colonel Stojanovic

 9    could issue orders.  He could only convey an order of the corps commander,

10    convey an order of the corps commander.  I really don't ...

11       Q.   Wouldn't it be contrary to the procedure in respect of the chain

12    of command for orders to a resubordinated unit, like the company that were

13    resubordinated to the 125th Brigade, to be sent directly to the company

14    from the corps commander?

15       A.   Of course that would not be done directly to the company

16    commander.  It would go with the approval of the 125th Motorised Brigade,

17    Colonel Zivanovic; that is to say no one would come directly to the area

18    of deployment of the company that was resubordinated to the 125th and say,

19    Now you're going to do this and that.  No, it can't be done that way.  One

20    goes to Colonel Zivanovic or to the Chief of Staff, if Colonel Zivanovic

21    is absent, and then together with him -- well, the procedure is that only

22    after that can an order be conveyed with the knowledge and approval of the

23    brigade commander; that is to say the commander of the brigade to which

24    the unit had been attached.

25       Q.   Yes, that is my understanding as well.  Could we look at P2297.

 1    This is the war diary of the 57th -- of the 52nd Military Police

 2    Battalion, and if we quickly take a look at page 6 thereof in English; it

 3    is page 9 in B/C/S.  On the entry of the 13th of February, 1999, and the

 4    reference here is -- that I want to take your attention to is the -- is

 5    that it states:  "On arrival in the Morina border post sector, we were

 6    tasked with the" --

 7            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the 13th of February is

10    stated in the translation, question to the witness.  In the B/C/S we have

11    the 5th, 6th, and 7th of April, and in English you have the 20th and the

12    21st of April.  Now we have three completely different things and the

13    interpretation of the question said February.

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Stamp, can you clarify this?

15            MR. STAMP:  Yes, probably I said February, but when I was reading

16    I think I said the 13th of April, 1999.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, let's have the entries for the 13th of April

18    on both sides of the screen, please.

19            MR. STAMP;  page 6 in English, page 9 in B/C/S.

20       Q.   And it states quite clear there that the unit was tasked by the

21    chief of the security department to capture the border post and that the

22    task was carried out.  So you would agree with me, Mr. Antic, that there

23    were occasions when the normal chain of command was bypassed by senior

24    officials or officers in the company -- sorry, in the military police?

25       A.   I could not agree with you because I did not receive such orders.

 1    As for this, can I clarify it concerning the 13th?

 2       Q.   Go on.

 3       A.   This is not the company that I'm talking about.  This is a company

 4    that had a one-day task, that is to say a task that lasted less than 24

 5    hours, that was sent to the state border at the moment when the

 6    terrorists, the terrorist forces, amounting to about 1.000 men, penetrated

 7    the first defence line of the state border.  So they were urgently sent

 8    there as a reinforcement to the units on the first defence line.

 9            As for this company, the deputy commander of the battalion, Zeljko

10    Gavrilovic, captain first class, went with this unit, and that's why I

11    leave the possibility -- I allow for the possibility that

12    Colonel Stojanovic conveyed the order to him, that is to say the deputy

13    battalion commander, the deputy of Major Kopanja due to the importance of

14    this mission was sent together with this company to accomplish that task;

15    and that task lasted for less than 24 hours.  After that, this unit

16    returned to Pristina and another unit that had already been ready, that

17    had already been ready in the area of disposition of the battalion was

18    sent there and resubordinated to the 125th Motorised Brigade, that is to

19    say at this time and for this unit -- as for the 13th of April, it was not

20    the one that was resubordinated.  I allow for the possibility that the

21    order was conveyed to this company because it would be insane to think

22    that even a chief of security would issue an order to a unit without

23    approval and without the knowledge of the corps commander, I mean.

24       Q.   But --

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  So the answer is:  This company wasn't

 1    resubordinated to the 125th or is there more to the answer than that?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This that pertains to the 13th of

 3    April that is stated in the diary, that company was not resubordinated to

 4    the 125th Motorised Brigade --

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Stop there.  I can't see why we've heard all this

 6    other material unless perhaps someone can clarify it.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  No.

 9            MR. STAMP:  No.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Not at the moment.

11            Please, Mr. Stamp.

12            MR. STAMP:

13       Q.   Yeah, you have said, however, that Colonel Stojanovic did not have

14    command over the 52nd, he could not task them, but he could only propose

15    the use of the unit, the corps commander, yet we see here --

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  That's not my understanding of this, Mr. Stamp.

17            MR. STAMP:  At paragraph 7 of his statement.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, I see what you're referring to.  Thank you.

19            MR. STAMP:

20       Q.   So all I want to know is -- and I think that is your answer.

21    There may be occasions, perhaps emergency situations, when a normal

22    commanding chain may be bypassed, as you described now in emergency

23    situation.

24       A.   If you are trying to tell me that Colonel Stojanovic, or rather,

25    the chief of security sidestepped the corps command or the corps commander

 1    and only on his own responsibility engaged these people and issued a task

 2    to them, I could not agree with that.  He conveyed an order to this unit;

 3    that is to say he proposed, that is what is stated in that paragraph of

 4    mine.  He can make a proposal to the corps commander to the effect that

 5    this unit should be used because he is professionally capable of doing

 6    that.  He makes a proposal, the corps commander approves it, and then

 7    Colonel Stojanovic gets that order of the corps commander and he conveys

 8    it to Captain Zeljko Gavrilovic, deputy battalion commander, who came with

 9    that unit to the actual spot.

10       Q.   Very well.  So it was possible then for senior officers like

11    Colonel Stojanovic and Major Kopanja, the battalion commander, to convey

12    orders from the Pristina Corps command to units that were in the field?

13       A.   In the field, yes, but -- but, please, if they are not

14    resubordinated to another unit -- this unit on the 13th of April was not

15    resubordinated.  I told you that during the night another company was sent

16    to be resubordinated to the 125th Motorised Brigade.  Yes.  That is to

17    say, if a unit goes out on mission independently, then its task is issued

18    to it by the battalion commander or the deputy battalion commander, and

19    this is an order of the corps commander that is conveyed.  And if it is

20    resubordinated, then it gets orders from --

21       Q.   Can we try to keep the answers responsive to the questions that

22    I'm asking and as precise as possible.

23            When the unit was resubordinated to the 125th, was this done in

24    writing?  Was there a written order?

25       A.   I'm a company commander.  I cannot know that.  In most cases I get

 1    oral orders, verbal orders, from my commander and certainly there were

 2    written orders from the corps command that had arrived to the battalion

 3    command, to my commander; however, I as a company commander did not get

 4    orders in writing, or rather, before me it was only --

 5       Q.   This is a very simple question, and I want to keep this short.

 6    Was the resubordinate in writing --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  The answer is I don't know.

 8            Please try to confine what you're saying to the particular

 9    question that's being asked, and if you don't know the answer to that

10    question there's no point in telling us all sorts of other things.

11            Mr. Stamp.

12            MR. STAMP:

13       Q.   Did you see Major Kopanja at any time after you were assigned to

14    the resubordinated company?  Do you understand what I'm asking?  Perhaps

15    we could -- did you see him after the 21st of April, 1999, at any time?

16       A.   I think I didn't.  I think I didn't.

17       Q.   So do you know whether or not he visited any of the units that

18    were in the Kosare-Morina area?

19       A.   At the time when I was -- well, as you said, from the 21st

20    Commander Kopanja did not come to the area.

21       Q.   Before that, before the 21st, while the units were there, do you

22    know if he visited the area?

23       A.   Well, at that time I was in the broader area of Pristina and my

24    task was to secure the corps command, so I don't know whether he went

25    there.

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5       Q.   That was engaged before the 21st in the Morina-Kosare sector; is

 6    that so?

 7       A.   It was engaged -- well, don't take my word for it, on the 17th,

 8    18th, 19th, those three days.  It had intensive combat up there at Kosare.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Stamp, that's the significance of the 21st?

10            MR. STAMP:  The 21st in paragraph 17 of his statement he is saying

11    that is when he, the witness, Mr. Antic, was transferred, as it were, to

12    the area of the Kosare border post.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.  Thank you.

14            MR. STAMP:

15       Q.   So this follows but I'll ask you anyway.  I take it, therefore,

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21       A.   I confirm what I said a few moments ago; namely, I know that from

22    the 21st onwards when I took over the command Kopanja did not come.  As

23    for the period before that, I don't know.

24       Q.   Thank you.  During the operation or the action in the Caragoj

25    valley, you said that you had in your custody four persons that you handed

 1    over to the MUP at some point in time.  Were you required at any point in

 2    time to make any formal reports to the MUP about the circumstances of

 3    their capture or did you merely hand them over and move on?

 4       A.   I turned over the four said civilians to the commander of the PJP

 5    unit of the MUP, and I told him why I'm turning them over, the reasons why

 6    I intercepted them and detained them, and why I'm turning them over for

 7    further processing.

 8       Q.   So you were not required to follow-up on that, to make any formal

 9    report, whether within the army or within the -- or to the MUP?

10       A.   Upon completion of the assignment, I informed my superior about

11    the entire assignment, including what I had done with those four.

12       Q.   Orally or in writing?

13       A.   Orally.

14       Q.   Who was that superior?

15       A.   I told you, for that period it was 125th Motorised Brigade; I was

16    resubordinated to them, I informed them, and they passed the report on.

17       Q.   Was it a person that you informed?

18       A.   I think it was the Chief of Staff of 125th.

19       Q.   The three people that you describe in your statement as the heads

20    of three groups of houses located in the hamlet, were these the patriarchs

21    of three family compounds?

22       A.   They were the elders.  You could say patriarchs of the families,

23    although I don't really know; but they were the elders who talked to me

24    and who accepted what I suggested and stayed.

25       Q.   And you suspected that these people were involved in the terrorist

 1    action?

 2       A.   Since some fire had come from the direction of the houses, that

 3    is, from east of the houses, part of the fire directed at us during the

 4    night, I suspected that in some way either they fired themselves or they

 5    informed KLA members that our positions were there.  Anyway, I suspected

 6    that somehow they were involved in these events.

 7       Q.   Now, was that -- and this is Ramus?

 8       A.   Ramoc, R-a-m-o-c.

 9       Q.   Thanks.  Was that the only village that you went to that you

10    encountered civilians as you came down the mountain?

11       A.   In the course of carrying out this task on the 27th, apart from

12    that one civilian whom we found hiding in the forest, it was my first

13    contact with civilians outside of the village of Ramoc, to the north of

14    the village.

15       Q.   Well, it was your first contact, but were there -- what I'm

16    asking:  Were there any other villages or places that your unit passed

17    through that you had contact with civilians?

18       A.   We had no other contacts with civilians, and my unit moved through

19    an extremely wooded area where there were no houses.  It was only outside

20    Ramoc that we came across clusters of houses, two or three in a group,

21    small hamlets you could say.

22       Q.   Now, I think you said in your statement that -- and you also drew

23    it on the map today, that the MUP units were your neighbours to the right

24    and you heard on both days that they were engaged in fighting.  Did you

25    see or notice anything to indicate that houses or property was burning in

 1    the area to your right?

 2       A.   I had not succeeded in establishing either visual or radio contact

 3    with the units of the MUP, so I could hear fire from that direction; but I

 4    couldn't see what was going on, and I was unable to find out.  I did not

 5    see smoke coming from the house.

 6       Q.   Apart from -- I'm not sure if I understand what you mean when you

 7    say you did not see smoke from the house --

 8            MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I can intervene, as the transcripts

 9    going, at lines 14 and 15 I believe the witness said - and you can ask him

10    to verify that - that he did not see smoke or houses ablaze.

11            MR. STAMP:

12       Q.   I see you are nodding.  Is that what you're saying, you saw -- the

13    only fire you know of --

14       A.   I said I did not see houses ablaze and I did not see smoke.

15       Q.   So the only fire you know of during that action was the barn and

16    the haystack outside -- around Ramoc?

17       A.   One haystack caught fire and the fire moved easily to the adjacent

18    part of the structure so that eventually one part of the house also caught

19    fire.

20       Q.   And that is the only structure you knew of that burnt in the two

21    days that you were involved in this action; is that what you are saying?

22       A.   That is what I saw and what I know.  I did not see or know

23    anything else.

24       Q.   How was this action coordinated?  Was there a command post at any

25    place for the VJ units?

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Was there a command post at any place for the MUP units?

 3       A.   I don't know that.

 4       Q.   Did you meet with the commanders of the VJ unit to your left and

 5    the MUP units to your right before this action started?

 6       A.   I had no contact whatsoever with MUP units before the action

 7    started all the way until that date, the 28th, and I first met up with the

 8    commander of the VJ unit that morning before the action started; and after

 9    that, we no longer had any visual contact.

10       Q.   Could we look quickly at IC172.

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you mean on the 28th or do you mean the 27th?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the 27th, I had no

13    contact with the MUP; and on the 28th, in the morning, just before the

14    assignment started, I met up with the commander of the unit, which was my

15    neighbour on the left.  And on the 28th --

16            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters seems to have got this wrong.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 27th in the morning just

18    before the assignment started, I met up with the commander which was my

19    left neighbour and then on the 28th in the morning --

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, this is very unclear.  Let's start again.

21            You have told us in your statement that the 28th was when you

22    handed over the four persons to the PJP.  What you're being asked about

23    just now is when you had discussion to coordinate your work with the PJP.

24    Now, when was that?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This discussion about coordination

 1    of the assignment with PJP did not happen.  My first contact with the PJP

 2    was around 10.00, 11.00 a.m. On the morning of the 28th.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Stamp.

 4            MR. STAMP:  Could we have a look at IC172.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean this map?

 6            MR. STAMP:

 7       Q.   The border to Albania is a broken line to the west of this map,

 8    that is, the left, the line that transects on the letter H, is there --

 9    oh, you can't hear?

10       A.   [In English] Okay.

11       Q.   Yes, I just wanted to identify the Albanian border.

12       A.   [Interpretation] Yes, I see.

13       Q.   All three units, according to you, were moving down the valley

14    towards Korenica and Meja -- well, your unit was moving towards Korenica.

15    Do I have that correct?

16       A.   My unit went along the route of Dobros-Ramoc towards Korenica but

17    not up to Korenica, towards Korenica.

18       Q.   Yes.  And the -- so I take it, looking at this map, that these

19    three units had a role of pushing terrorists towards Korenica and not

20    blocking the movement to the left or to the west towards Albania; is that

21    correct?

22       A.   Our assignment was to move and search in order to find any

23    terrorists that may be there, and if we find any to arrest them and kill

24    them.  So it was not a blockade.  It was supposed to be a movement and

25    search of the terrain to find any terrorists in that part of the terrain

 1    and to neutralize them.

 2       Q.   And -- well, what, you searched the forests?  Is that all you

 3    searched while you came down the valley?  Or did you search any village or

 4    hamlet or settlement?

 5       A.   I told you that on my axis of advance -- look where I am, south of

 6    Dobros.  On my axis of advance up to Ramoc there were no houses.  So I

 7    have a certain width, I go along that route, and I try to avoid at all

 8    costs -- in this case there weren't any, but if there is no fire from

 9    houses you don't perform any detailed search of houses.

10       Q.   Are you aware that there were convoys or -- let me withdraw the

11    word "convoys" - is that there were groups of civilians moving down the

12    mountain away from your advance towards Korenica?

13       A.   I've already said this.  My first contact with civilians was

14    outside Ramoc village.  I didn't see any civilians before or after that.

15       Q.   Yes, but you were in an operation or an action and you were in

16    radio contact.  I'm just asking:  Did it come to your attention that apart

17    from the civilians who left Ramoc there were convoys of civilians moving

18    away from your advance towards Korenica and Meja?  Did you become aware of

19    that?

20       A.   No, nobody informed me about that.

21       Q.   Did you become aware or did you know that there were police

22    check-points in the vicinity of Korenica and Meja through which these

23    convoys had to pass?

24       A.   No, no, I had no information about that.

25       Q.   So as you came down the mountain or came down the valley - and I'm

 1    speaking of all three units - were you not told what was the plan in

 2    respect to any KLA that would be fleeing in front of you?

 3       A.   The plan was to search the terrain, to find, and to neutralize

 4    terrorist forces; that was the plan for my unit, in direct contact, find

 5    and neutralize enemy terrorist forces.

 6       Q.   And when you stopped at Korenica, were you not told of any plans

 7    for any KLA forces that might have been fleeing in advance of your units

 8    and the MUP units?

 9       A.   No.  I reached my destination, as envisaged in my assignment, I

10    communicated by radio that I had reached my objective and there was

11    nothing further.  I was told to return to my prior area of deployment.

12       Q.   About what time on the 28th did you disengage from Korenica or the

13    outskirts of Korenica?

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, maybe I jumped before Mr. Stamp

16    corrected himself, disengaged Korenica, meaning the outskirts.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was around 3.00, maybe 2.00 p.m.

18    In the afternoon.  I can't tell you exactly.  At any rate, in the

19    afternoon.

20            MR. STAMP:

21       Q.   Can I move on to just ask you a couple of questions about the

22    video you saw.  Do you know what events were occurring at the barracks

23    before that video that you saw -- just saw was created?

24       A.   Before that incident on the video, part of my unit and other parts

25    of the 52nd Battalion of the military police had performed a tactical

 1    demonstration exercise.

 2       Q.   And do you know how long General Pavkovic remained in the barracks

 3    that day?

 4       A.   I cannot tell you exactly.

 5       Q.   So while you were in his presence, did you take notes or take a

 6    record of everything that he said?

 7       A.   No, I did not.  There was no need -- I didn't take any notes.

 8            MR. STAMP:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  I have nothing

 9    further for this witness.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Stamp.

11            Mr. Bakrac, you have re-examination?

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will have a few

13    questions, but I believe it's time for the break now and the witness does

14    need a rest because of his leg.  I'll be very brief after the break.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just before we have our break.

16                          Questioned by the Court:

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Antic, have you ever heard of a unit called the

18    14th Counter-Intelligence Group?

19       A.   No, never.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

21            Well, we need to have a break at this stage and that break will

22    last for about half an hour.  Just you remain where you are at the moment

23    until we've left the bench, and the usher will show you where you can wait

24    and make yourself comfortable while we have this break.

25            We will resume at 11.15.

 1                          --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                          Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

 6       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Antic, I only have three more questions for

 7    you, so I shan't be too long, additional ones.  Can we please have Exhibit

 8    IC172 brought up on our screens.

 9            Mr. Antic, you drew the route along which you were moving and part

10    of the 63rd as well.  First of all, let me ask you this:  How strong was

11    this component of the 63rd Parachute Brigade?

12       A.   There was a component of the 63rd Parachute Brigade that was about

13    as strong as my own forces.  I can't say precisely, but I don't think it

14    was more than 30 or 40 men.

15       Q.   Thank you.  Where were they to complete their mission?  How far

16    were they supposed to get on the 28th, if you could please point that out

17    to us, that's why I'm asking.

18       A.   As far as I know, their mission was to be completed approximately

19    where I drew this line near Ripaj-Madanaj, give or take a hundred metres,

20    but it was in that belt.

21       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Antic, I have another question.

22    Mr. Stamp asked you about when these persons surrendered or were

23    surrendered, and he asked you about some documents.

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we didn't know that

25    this issue would be raised on the cross, and I found during the break the

 1    methods on the combat use of the military police.

 2       Q.   Are you familiar with that textbook?

 3       A.   Yes.  This is a book that is used for training ordinary soldiers

 4    and officers of the military police.

 5       Q.   Is there anything there that envisages the manner in which

 6    non-military persons are surrendered when the situation is of military

 7    interest?

 8       A.   This is something that is envisaged under the heading:  Bringing

 9    persons in, so these civilian persons, non-military persons, are to be

10    handed over to bodies of the MUP.

11       Q.   I will read out a sentence very briefly, and you tell me whether

12    this is one of the methods described in the book.  "Non-military persons

13    or foreigners" --

14            MR. STAMP:  Is this an exhibit and this is quite leading as well.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, is it an exhibit?

16            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I just found this.

17    I was prompted to do this by Mr. Stamp's question on cross-examination,

18    but I will be tendering this as a bar table exhibit at a later stage,

19    these methods.  We didn't realize that this would be raised or challenged.

20    Just a single sentence for the witness to confirm whether this is, indeed,

21    a sentence from that book, not -- or perhaps I should let the witness read

22    this for us.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, it's a pointless exercise, Mr. Bakrac.  It

24    would be a leading question at this stage.  The witness has told us what

25    he did, and what you want to do is demonstrate that this is consistent

 1    with the practice set down in this book, well you can do that by tendering

 2    it at the bar table.  There's no need to ask any questions.  Move to

 3    something else.

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be tendering

 5    this as a bar table exhibit.  I agree with you.  Thank you very much.

 6       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Antic.  I have no further questions for you.

 7            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my

 8    re-examination.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

10            Mr. Antic, that completes your evidence.  Thank you for coming

11    here to the Tribunal to give evidence.  You may now leave the courtroom.

12    The usher will show you where you can now go.

13                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14                          [The witness withdrew]

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24            MR. STAMP:  Indeed, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  And to ensure that that is effective, the statement

 1    itself should be admitted under seal for the moment.  So you would have to

 2    consider not only the transcript but the statement, and you should make

 3    your position clear on that by the end of this week.

 4            MR. STAMP:  Very well, Your Honour, that will be done.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, Mr. Bakrac, who is the next witness?

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next witness is

 7    Pavle Gavrilovic.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Do similar issues arise in relation to his

 9    evidence?

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)
 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  So how do you suggest we deal with Gavrilovic?

14            MS. CARTER:  The safest measure is to take it completely in

15    private; however, I know that the Court is loathed to do that so we just

16    have to monitor.  We can talk about general operations, but to the extent

17    that we are going to talk about any comparison of testimony, that has to

18    be going into private session.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  If and when the statement is admitted, then you

20    suggest it should be on the basis that paragraphs 15, 18, and 20 are

21    redacted?

22            MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  That's correct?

24            MS. CARTER:  That is correct, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  And we should start on the basis that we are
 1    hearing the evidence in public and counsel should draw our attention to

 2    the situation, should it be likely that references would lead to the

 3    identity of any of the protected witnesses who have given evidence on

 4    these subjects.  Is that the position?

 5            MS. CARTER:  It is, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah.

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, that sounds sensible.  Do you agree?

11            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree too.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  You will be cautious and alert us should there be

13    any need to go into private session.

14            We shall now return to open session.

15                          [Open session]

16            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  And you have just confirmed to us, Mr. Bakrac, that

18    the next witness will be Pavle Gavrilovic.

19            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next witness for

20    the Lazarevic Defence is Pavle Gavrilovic.

21                          [The witness entered court]

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  Good morning, Mr. Gavrilovic.

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you please make the solemn declaration to

25    speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

 1    you.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 3    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please take a seat.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  You will now be examined by Mr. Bakrac on behalf of

 7    Mr. Lazarevic.

 8            Mr. Bakrac.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10                          WITNESS:  PAVLE GAVRILOVIC

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                          Examination by Mr. Bakrac:

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gavrilovic, good morning.  Please state your

14    full name for the record, tell us your date and year of birth and your

15    place of birth.

16       A.   My name is Pavle Gavrilovic.  I was born on the 31st of January,

17    1965, in Pirot.

18       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, you will have to make a pause for me to ask you a

19    question, that gets interpreted, and then you start answering; and please

20    slow down so the interpreters can interpret accurately what you are

21    saying.

22            Mr. Gavrilovic, did you not make a statement to the Lazarevic

23    Defence team on the 9th of January, 2008?

24       A.   Yes, I did.

25       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to read that statement and sign it?
 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Is the statement an accurate reflection of what you told the

 3    Lazarevic Defence team?

 4       A.   Yes, it is.

 5       Q.   Were I to ask you the same questions today about all the topics

 6    that you covered in your statement, would you still provide the same

 7    answers, sir?

 8       A.   Yes, I would.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

10       Q.   Or rather, Mr. Gavrilovic, we all have your statement in front of

11    us.  We have the opportunity to familiarise ourselves with its substance

12    and there is no need to repeat any of this.  I will be asking you one

13    thing, though.  We shall try to furnish some additional clarifications for

14    the benefit of the Chamber.

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a couple of

16    questions and these are questions about the evidence given by these

17    witnesses, or rather, I apologise, just before I go there.  I didn't give

18    you the exhibit number for the statement and I did not move that it be

19    admitted.  This is 5D1397.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

21            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can it please be admitted into

22    evidence.

23            MS. CARTER:  The Prosecution requests that this be under seal

24    until a redacted version is provided.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  You're not content that we simply have the three

 1    paragraphs under seal that you identified?

 2            MS. CARTER:  That is fine --

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Oh, yes, I see what you're suggesting, that that's

 4    the practical way of doing it.  Yes, you're quite right.

 5            Mr. Bakrac.

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me just check if

 7    we're in private session now.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, we are in open session.  Do you want to go into

 9    private session?  Yes.  Very well.

10 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

11            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)  Were

16    any of the combat groups stationed in a village and were any of the combat

17    groups stationed in the village of Damjane?

18       A.   There was a combat group that was stationed in Damjane, not in the

19    village itself but rather near the village.  I was the commander of the

20    logistics battalion and there was a component of my unit that was in that

21    combat group, that was part of that combat group.  I visited them several

22    times then and other combat groups that were deployed across these

23    sectors.  But none of the components were in the actual village, they were

24    in the village, around the village, if you like.  My own component was in

25    the tents and food was prepared in the open air.  I'm not sure if that's

 1    what your question was about.

 2       Q.   I'll interrupt you now because we're using up too much time for

 3    explanations that are not strictly necessary.

 4       A.   Fine.

 5       Q.   Were there any civilians in that village?  Did they remain or did

 6    the soldiers drive them out and didn't they tell them to go to their

 7    homes?

 8       A.   The civilians stayed there and nobody ever told them to go or drag

 9    them out.

10       Q.   Since you were the commander of that battalion, say you appointed

11    someone to be the driver of a particular combat group, would this person

12    not be in charge of distributing food and other necessities to other

13    combat groups as well?

14       A.   No.  If I may just explain briefly.  This person would have been

15    in charge of that specific combat group and his only responsibility would

16    be to furnish supplies for that unit, food and water specifically.  He

17    would not have been able to bring supplies to any other combat group but

18    his own.

19       Q.   This witness also said that in 1998 he was ordered to take the

20    lorries that were still road-worthy and to seize them for military

21    purposes.

22       A.   No, that never occurred.

23       Q.   Did you seize any lorries back in 1998 when the war broke out?

24       A.   No, none.

25       Q.   Did you have any civilian lorries?

 1       A.   There were some vehicles that had been left behind, abandoned, but

 2    this wasn't the case in my unit.

 3       Q.   Did you have any vehicles that had been mobilised for your

 4    purposes?

 5       A.   Yes, we had a number of vehicles that had been mobilised, but

 6    those came together with drivers.

 7       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, this same witness also gives evidence about an

 8    action early in March 1999 in Jeskovo village.  You were the commander of

 9    the logistics battalion, were you not?  In your capacity as commander of

10    that battalion, did you know that any component from your unit took part,

11    took an active part, in the action in the village of Jeskovo in March

12    1999?

13       A.   No, definitely not.  Perhaps in the sense of providing the

14    logistic, but certainly not in any active role.

15       Q.   When you say in terms of providing logistics, what exactly do you

16    mean?

17       A.   I mean supplying food and drinking-water.

18       Q.   Assume there is an action that is supposed to last maybe one or

19    two days, what is the procedure regarding food and water?

20       A.   If it takes no more than one or two days, then there is no need

21    for these supplies to be provided.  Each soldier would have been expected

22    to carry their rations on them and whatever the amount of water was that

23    they were likely to be using up as well as their ammunition.  There is no

24    need to provide any additional supplies and my unit was not called upon.

25       Q.   And when supplies were necessary, how many soldiers would normally

 1    be required and how would they get there?

 2       A.   When supplies were required, no matter if food or water, normally

 3    there would be a vehicle with a driver and an officer in it.

 4       Q.   Were they authorised to leave the vehicle, to leave the vehicle

 5    behind, and enter an area of combat operations?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   You're providing very brief answers now.  This is going well

 8    somehow, but I asked you to make a pause for my question to be interpreted

 9    first.  Now we're getting along just fine because the answers are brief,

10    but if they get any longer we might be facing some interpretation trouble.

11            Mr. Gavrilovic, you were the commander of the logistics battalion.

12    Was it ever the case that a water tanker was found at the head of a combat

13    column just behind a tank?

14       A.   No, that would have been impossible.

15            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, at this point I'm not clear where in the

16    65 ter summary or in the statement that these subjects are being

17    discussed.  I think we've gone outside of the summaries.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

19            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think this

20    exceeds the context of the summary.  This witness is telling us about the

21    evidence given by two other witnesses in relation to a particular

22    incident.  We're in closed session, in Trnje village, and he's supposed to

23    say something about the evidence of these two witnesses,(redacted); and they

24   talk about this detail, I mean Jeskovo, in their respective statements.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  Where is the reference to Jeskovo in his statement?

 1            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] There is none in his statement, but I

 2    think there is mention of the fact that he would be commenting on the

 3    evidence of (redacted).  That's in the 65 ter.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, I'm looking at your 65 ter statement and I

 5    don't think I see that, but it's in the statement -- it's in his statement

 6    that he will be commenting on the evidence of (redacted), but also the 65

 7    ter statement doesn't appear to refer to Jeskovo either.

 8            MS. CARTER:  And respectfully, Your Honour, when he is supposed to

 9    be commenting on the other two witnesses' materials, that he's very

10    specific in regards to it's the March incidents and just generally

11    rebutting specific statements made by the witnesses, as opposed to some

12    general overview.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  In any event, you've -- the question that you did

14    ask has been answered, Mr. Bakrac.  Now, please continue but confine

15    yourself to what you've given notice of raising.

16            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Sir, Mr. Gavrilovic, this same witness, (redacted), speaking of the

18    blockade above Jeskovo village, says that among others the soldiers who

19    entered Trnje village in order to conduct a search of that village, there

20    was also Private Dejan Milosevic.  Do you know Private Dejan Milosevic?

21       A.   Private Dejan Milosevic is familiar to me.  I know him because he

22    wasn't entirely fit for military service, but he still joined the ranks.

23    He was with the technicians, he worked there as a mechanic.  He had some

24    trouble walking, he wasn't properly able to walk, and I am entirely

25    certain that he was certainly not away from this unit.  This is entirely

 1    impossible that he would have gone anywhere like that because he wasn't

 2    entirely able --

 3            MS. CARTER:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to walk.  I know him, I know his

 5    name, this is a soldier from Pristina who --

 6            MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, again we are falling in

 7    the same trap, that is that I don't see anywhere in the 65 ter summary or

 8    within the statement itself with regards to (redacted) that begins at paragraph

 9    20, and there's no mention whatsoever of this incident, this person, or

10    this topic.

11            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it certainly was

12    mentioned, and in chief the witness testifies about that.  According to

13    (redacted), Dejan Milosevic did take part in the action in the village of Trnje.

14    You have that on page 3 of his statement in B/C/S --

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, I understand that, Mr. Bakrac.  The objection

16    is that you haven't given notice that this witness would be specifically

17    dealing with these matters.

18            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, in 65 ter we did

19    give a more general picture -- rather, a warning, an indication that we

20    would be dealing with the testimonies of these witnesses regarding the

21    village of Trnje.  That is precisely what I am talking about now.  Clearly

22    in relation to all the things that these witnesses said about the incident

23    in Trnje --

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, please show me in the 65 ter summary where

25    you refer to it.

 1            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is paragraph 5,

 2    paragraph 5, that's the action of deblocking the road between Suva Reka

 3    and Prizren.  We did announce that, the activities of the 549th Motorised

 4    Brigade in destroying Siptar terrorist forces in the deblockade of

 5    Retimlje and the Suva Reka-Orahovac road.  This is an action that went on

 6    for four days, and that is what these two witnesses testified about.  As a

 7    matter of fact, what was shown to them were these analyses, they were

 8    shown to them by the OTP regarding the command of the Pristina Corps.  It

 9    is a Prosecution exhibit, and it specifically has to do with this

10    particular blockade or rather the participation of this witness in that,

11    in that action.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Carter, both these witnesses identified or made

13    reference to this witness in the course of their evidence.  Although the

14    65 ter lacks specification, it's not necessary that it should be specific

15    to the points that you raise unless they were discreet points, and here

16    there is notice that he will be dealing with that particular action.  So

17    we shall allow this questioning to continue.

18            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, I think that you have answered my previous

20    question.  At any rate, tell me, you described in detail in your statement

21    your participation in blocking the terrain in the action on deblocking

22    this road.  Private Dejan Milosevic, to the best of your recollection, was

23    he involved in this blockade at all during those four days?

24       A.   He certainly wasn't; I've already said that.  Private

25    Dejan Milosevic, I remember him, I have an excellent recollection of him,

 1    he is a soldier from Pristina, and he had a hip problem, due to which he

 2    could not walk properly.  So he was partially unfit for military service.

 3    He worked in a workshop.  He certainly didn't do anything there.

 4       Q.   In your battalion did you have another person by the name of

 5    Dejan Milosevic?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, or rather, this same witness with respect to this

 8    same action, talking about their descent into the village of Trnje, he

 9    says that the members of your battalion threw hand-grenades into houses.

10    The members of the logistics battalion, did they have hand-grenades at

11    all?

12       A.   They did not have hand-grenades; that is to say that was

13    impossible that any one of these men had them.

14       Q.   Are you talking about this action or are you talking about this in

15    general throughout the war?

16       A.   I'm saying in general.  Soldiers did not have hand-grenades.  It

17    is impossible that any one of them had them.

18       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, could we please have a look at P1995.  I have the

19    second page of this document in B/C/S.

20            Mr. Gavrilovic, under paragraph 2 in the first subparagraph and in

21    the first bullet point we see BG-1 and further on.  It says:  "VJ forces

22    were engaged."

23            Is the logistics battalion included in the engaged forces there or

24    part of the logistics battalion for that matter?

25       A.   No, no, the logistics battalion is not there or not even part of

 1    it.  Simply because we were not the engaged forces, we were the blockade

 2    forces.

 3       Q.   Now let us have a look, perhaps it will be easier for us to have a

 4    look from the bottom of the page, the first, second, third, fourth

 5    paragraph, and the last sentence there.  Could you read it out and could

 6    you tell us whether these forces in the blockade refer to your unit or to

 7    part of your unit?

 8            MS. CARTER:  Can I get a page reference in the English, please.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In English it is the next page, Your

11    Honours, page 3 -- no, sorry, 4.

12            If I may assist my colleague, in English it's towards the bottom

13    of the page, it's a bit lower than this.  It is the last sentence.  I am

14    sorry.  Let me just have a look.  I guess it's on page 5, as a matter of

15    fact.  It starts with the following words:  "During the course of the

16    third day ..."

17            Yes.

18            Your Honour -- well, yes, for the Court and for my colleague it is

19    the second paragraph, the first, second, third, fourth, fifth line, that's

20    where it says:  "The villages of Trnje and Lesane, the forces under the

21    blockade ..."

22            We can go back to the B/C/S version.  I hope that I have assisted

23    the Trial Chamber and my colleague.

24       Q.   Could you please read the last sentence?

25       A.   Yes.

 1       Q.   And tell us, does this refer to your part of the unit?

 2       A.   "The forces under the blockade along the asphalt road and in the

 3    area of Siroko, Smac, and Donja Srbica were still in their positions."

 4            This precisely refers to the part of the unit that was there.

 5       Q.   Did you have any movements during these four days?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, Witness (redacted) said that part of your battalion, or

 8    rather, that, or rather, that part of your battalion did find a local

 9    Albanian in the area of deployment of the technical company of that

10    battalion and that he was interviewed and then executed, shot.  Can you

11    remember any such incident?

12       A.   I can exactly remember this particular incident because it was

13    just that one and only incident.  It was the only such person found in the

14    area of deployment of my unit and in general.

15       Q.   Let us now look at 5D228, that's a combat report of --

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Is that all that's to be asked on that?

17            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  You're still on the same subject.  Thank you.

19            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, of course.  I'd

20    like us to have a look at this and then I'm going to put two or three

21    other questions in relation to that.

22       Q.   Look at 1.2:  "Activities of the STS" and then we have paragraph

23    2.  Could you read this second paragraph, or rather, subparagraph: "Guards

24    of the support battalion, or rather, logistics battalion ..."

25       A.   This precisely pertains to that.  This is what it says:  "Guards

 1    of the logistics battalion of the 549th Motorised Brigade" --

 2       Q.   Do slow down.

 3       A.   " ...  captured terrorist Gashi Shukri who was under cover around

 4    the redeployment area of the unit.  Before that he discarded an automatic

 5    rifle with three clips of ammunition and a knife marked KLA.  He confessed

 6    to being a member of the KLA terrorist organization.  He is being

 7    processed by the security organ and the military police."

 8       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic --

 9            MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, I'm wondering if there's a

10    translation issue.  5D228 is in regards to combat operations that took

11    place on 22 May of 1999.  It's my understanding that we were discussing

12    March of 1999.  So either there's a translation problem, or I'm not clear

13    how these two items are related.

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know.  I didn't

16    manage to follow these documents and the translation, we're not talking

17    about March at all.  I asked about the war period, and now I'm going to

18    ask him further about the war period, whether there were other such

19    incidents.  I wasn't talking about March.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  You were talking about a specific allegation made

21    by (redacted).  Now, what period did that relate to?

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the war period, and in

23    the statement of this witness there is no time specified.  He says:  "One

24    day somebody was shooting at the army, and as a consequence of that we

25    found ..."

 1            "As a consequence of that we found a local Albanian.  I'm sure

 2    that he wasn't the one shooting at us, but he was interviewed and

 3    executed."

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Gavrilovic, the person you have just referred

 5    to as having been arrested, how did he die?

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person -- well, I don't know

 9    whether he lost his life or not, but he certainly wasn't executed by a

10    firing squad or something like that.  He was handed over to the organs of

11    the military police, and as far as I know, charges were brought against

12    this person.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you know that?

14            THE WITNESS:  [No verbal response]

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  What were the charges?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact details now,

17    but I do now how this incident occurred, I remember that, because it was

18    characteristic case.  With your permission I may explain.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, I would just like to know what happened

20    afterwards, but you don't know anything about the proceedings that were

21    taken against him?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know of the proceedings -- this is

23    the procedure.  This person was handed over to the organs of the military

24    police --

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  But do you know what actually happened to him after

 1    that?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I know that criminal

 3    charges were brought against him and now later whether he was convicted or

 4    not --

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  What were the criminal charges then if you know

 6    about them?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, this is the way it

 8    was.  This person had weapons on him, a rifle and ammunition and a knife

 9    that was found on the site where the person himself was found, so --

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  You've told us all that.  Just tell me if you know

11    what the criminal charges were.  They're in a document normally.  Now, do

12    you know what this document charging him -- or do you even know that there

13    was a document on which he was charged before a military court?

14            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this kind of document when I

16    spoke to the lawyer, Mr. Bakrac, that's why I know it exists, but ...

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  In relation to this particular person?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely in relation to that

19    person.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  What's his name?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gashi, Shukri Gashi.

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

23            Mr. Bakrac.

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, can we now have a look at 5D903, please.

 1            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to draw the attention of

 2    the honourable Trial Chamber to the fact that in this combat report of the

 3    command of the Pristina Corps that we looked at a few moments ago, because

 4    we cannot have both documents on the screen at the same time, in the

 5    combat report it says:  "Shukri Gashi, son of Dervish," that is what is

 6    included in that report; the father's name is included as well.

 7       Q.   Is this a criminal report from the 22nd of May, 1999, and also the

 8    combat report pertains to the 22nd of May, 1999, criminal report, filed to

 9    the military prosecutor against Shukri Gashi, father's name Dervish?

10       A.   Yes.  That is precisely the criminal report.

11       Q.   To move along faster, does it say in the criminal report that the

12    authorised officer of the military police says:  "When I was taking over

13    Gashi Shukri, I told Sergeant first class Ljubisa Stojanovic to search the

14    place where the detainee who was arrested at sunrise."

15            Who is this sergeant first class Sergeant Stojanovic?

16       A.   He was a squad commander and on that day he was the duty officer.

17    As for Shukri Gashi, he was stopped by security guards near the technical

18    school where this unit was stationed at 2 after midnight.

19       Q.   So if I understood you correctly, he was not executed; he was

20    turned over to the military police and later to the military prosecution

21    office?

22       A.   Yes, correct.  I don't know whether he was convicted or not.

23       Q.   Apart from this incident involving this person, was there any

24    member of your logistical platoon who had occasion to arrest a KLA member

25    or a civilian?

 1       A.   No, no.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, do you also have documents to show what

 3    happened as the result of this report?

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not for the time being.

 5    I have charged someone with reviewing whether there are any documents in

 6    the files for terrorist activity and related charges.  I expect to find

 7    out what the further procedure was like.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, I have just one more question, and that is -- it

11    has to do with you.  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted) We

14    talked, and as far as I understood there was a plan to drive out Albanian

15    civilians from Kosovo."

16            First of all, it says "during NATO air-strikes."  During NATO

17    air-strikes before and after the war, who was your driver?

18       A.   That soldier, (redacted) whatever, certainly wasn't my driver.  My

19    driver was recruit Goran Stefanovic, a man from around Leskovac who still

20    lives there.  So it was certainly not that soldier.

21       Q.   Did (redacted) ever drive your car?

22       A.   No, certainly not.

23            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, those were all my

24    questions for this witness.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

 1            Mr. Ackerman.

 2            MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                          Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

 4       Q.   Mr. Gavrilovic, I just have a question or two.  I'm John Ackerman;

 5    I represent General Pavkovic.  At the beginning of your testimony you

 6    talked about the village of Damjane --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Can we, by the way, go into open session for your

 8    cross-examination or --

 9            MR. ACKERMAN:  Sure.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  -- is that dangerous?

11            MR. ACKERMAN:  I don't think it's dangerous at all.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.  Let's go into open session now.

13                          [Open session]

14            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Please continue, Mr. Ackerman.

16            MR. ACKERMAN:

17       Q.   During your examination you talked about this village Damjane and

18    you mentioned there was civilians there who remained there.  First of all,

19    do you have any idea the number of civilians that were in that village,

20    how many?

21       A.   I cannot tell you the exact number of civilians now, but it's a

22    normal village.

23       Q.   About how many houses would you say are in the village?

24       A.   I really cannot tell you how many houses there were, but certainly

25    around 50, maybe more, because I practically didn't go into the village

 1    when I toured part of my unit because my unit was in the broader area of

 2    that village, not inside.

 3       Q.   Do you know if those civilians remained in that village throughout

 4    the entire 78 days of the NATO campaign or do you not know that?

 5       A.   I don't know that.  I think they did, they did stay.

 6       Q.   Was there any NATO bombing that you know of that village or any

 7    NATO bombing in the vicinity of that village?

 8       A.   I really couldn't tell you now.  I don't remember.

 9       Q.   All right.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, Mr. Bakrac, we're about, obviously, to have

11    cross-examination from the Prosecutor; that raises the possibility I think

12    that you will reach another witness in the course of today, and I see

13    concern has been expressed about the short notice given of the statement

14    of the next witness that you propose to lead.  Are you going to alter the

15    order of witnesses?

16            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I dealt with the three

17    previous and two current ones, a total of five; my colleague, Mr. Cepic,

18    should handle the next four, and I believe he had problems with getting

19    translations from the CLSS.  He knows more about it because he

20    communicated with the CLSS.  I'm not sure if he's ready to report, but

21    I'll ask my helper to call Mr. Cepic to clarify this and to inform you

22    because he will do that better.  But I believe the order of witnesses has

23    not been altered.  I believe it's the same one that was announced by the

24    case manager to the Prosecution.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Hannis.

 1            MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, in addition to what I raised regarding

 2    the timing, in going through the statement this morning I discovered that

 3    the first 20 paragraphs, the English translation is quite --

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  It's incomprehensible.

 5            MR. HANNIS:  Yes, yes.  After that it seems to be translated by

 6    someone else and that's much more understandable, but I would request a

 7    further translation of those first 20 paragraphs because otherwise I can't

 8    deal with it.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  But as far as the timing is concerned, your

10    position is that you will not be in a position to deal with him until

11    Wednesday; is that right?

12            MR. HANNIS:  Well, yes, Your Honour, but I don't want to force

13    myself by my own petard by moving him to later and then having Vukovic

14    advance, for example, who is in my estimation a more significant witness

15    who I would rather have some additional time to prepare for.  So if I

16    don't have to start my cross-examination of this witness until tomorrow

17    afternoon, I'll probably be ready to do it if we can do something about

18    the first 20 paragraphs.

19            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, who translated the first part of the

20    statement?  Or do you not know?

21            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm in the in a position to tell you

22    now, Your Honour, because Mr. Cepic was looking for possibilities over the

23    weekend because he found out from the CLSS on Friday that they cannot

24    manage a translation by then.  I was working in the meantime with the

25    current witnesses.  I have to find out from him or bring him here to

 1    inform you.

 2            MR. HANNIS:  The concern I have about that, Your Honour, is the

 3    statement was taken on the 27th and 28th of December.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, well that's what makes it odd, yes, I agree.

 5    It's not one of these statements prepared at the last minute.

 6            Mr. Cepic will have to be here later today should we get to the

 7    stage of possibly calling that witness, and he should also be asked

 8    meanwhile to explore the possibility of advancing someone else but that

 9    would be someone other than Vukovic.

10            Now, we will continue with the examination.

11            You will now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Ms. Carter.

12            Ms. Carter.

13            MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                          Cross-examination by Ms. Carter:

15       Q.   Good afternoon, Lieutenant-Colonel.  My name is April Carter, and

16    I am here on behalf of the Office of the Prosecution and I have some

17    questions for you with regards to the operations your units were engaged

18    in in 1999.  The first thing that I would like to do is call up P3078.

19            THE INTERPRETER:  The Prosecutor is kindly asked to slow down.

20    Thank you.

21            MS. CARTER:

22       Q.   Sir, the primary feature in your statement is the operation that

23    took place on or about 24 March of 1999 on your place near the village of

24    Trnje.  I am showing you a map of those villages, and I would ask the

25    court to draw down to the very middle sector just to the left of

 1    Suva Reka, which is where the engagement took place.

 2            Sir, do you see the village of Trnje?

 3       A.   [In English] I don't see -- [Interpretation] I don't.

 4       Q.   Okay.

 5       A.   It's not clear at all.

 6       Q.   Do you see the village of Prizren to the bottom of the screen?

 7       A.   Yes, yes.

 8       Q.   Okay.  If you look to the line, the straight grid line to its

 9    right and go immediately up to the second graphic you should be able to

10    see it almost right on that line.  Do you see it now?

11       A.   Yes.

12            MS. CARTER:  Perhaps we can further blow up that portion of the

13    map.  Okay.  And a little further.  All right.

14       Q.   And now the Trnje village is actually to the far right-hand of the

15    screen.  Do you still see it, in the middle sector?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 8 of your statement, you indicate that 30 of

18    your men took a position on that hill on 25 March of 1999; is that

19    correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And specifically, that hill was between Mamusa and Trnje, and

22    that's about 500 metres off Trnje; is that correct?

23       A.   Correct, 500 to 1.000 metres.

24            MS. CARTER:  And for ease of reference if we can have the witness

25    mark exactly where those 30 men were deployed on the map.

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot mark it exactly on

 2    the map, but roughly it's around here.

 3            MS. CARTER:

 4       Q.   All right.  And if you could mark that with an A, please.

 5       A.   [Marks]

 6       Q.   Now, you've indicated to the Court that the blockade lasted four

 7    days and your people never moved off that position; is that correct?

 8       A.   Correct.

 9       Q.   What was your line of sight like between your position and the

10    village of Trnje?

11       A.   I emphasised in my statement that the weather was very bad, and

12    from the place where we were, we were able to see only a couple of houses,

13    two or three houses.

14       Q.   So outside of the weather itself, there was nothing to block your

15    line of sight between your position and Trnje village; is that correct?

16       A.   Yes, we were on the hill.

17       Q.   Now, you've indicated in your statement that you did not see or

18    hear any movement within Trnje village; is that correct?

19       A.   I didn't quite understand.  In what sense I did not see?

20       Q.   In paragraph 12 of your statement you specifically state that: "I

21    did not observe any movement or combat in the village."

22            Is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   And is that true for all four days that you were deployed on that

25    hilltop?

 1       A.   Correct.

 2       Q.   Now -- but you have indicated that you did hear combat operations

 3    in surrounding areas.  Can you please identify for the Court which

 4    positions that you do believe combat took place over those four days.

 5       A.   When I gave that statement, I didn't mean specific positions

 6    because it's impossible to determine the exact position.  We heard

 7    sporadic fire.  I don't know from which direction it came.  I cannot

 8    determine from here or from there.  I didn't see anyone shooting, so I

 9    cannot tell you from where the fire came, but gun-fire was heard.

10       Q.   The gun-fire that you did hear, do you believe that it was further

11    away from you than where Trnje village featured?

12       A.   Roughly, yes.

13            MS. CARTER:  That's all I'll need off this exhibit, if I can have

14    an IC number, please.

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be IC173, Your Honours.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

18            MS. CARTER:  I'd now like to call up P1995 and looking at page 5

19    in the English, the first full paragraph, and page 2, the fourth paragraph

20    from the bottom in the B/C/S.

21       Q.   Sir, the reason I was asking you questions about where you were

22    located as well as where there was combat operations is because you've

23    indicated that while you were on that hill you were not seeing anything in

24    Trnje, yet if you look to the fourth paragraph from the bottom where you

25    had cited that:  "The forces under the blockade line along the asphalt

 1    road in the area of Siroko, Smac, and Donja Srbica were still in their

 2    positions."

 3            I would actually direct you just above to where it says:

 4            "A part of the STS forces attempted to pull out along the creek to

 5    the villages of Trnje and Lesane," and then going down further to the

 6    fourth day operations, it indicates that:  "Over that night, the STS, they

 7    had pulled out of the villages of Trnje and Lesane during the night were

 8    also routed and crushed."

 9            What I'm asking you is:  How did you miss the fact that there was

10    clearly an operation occurring in Trnje village pursuant to the combat

11    report that you yourself cited in your statement?

12       A.   I have already said at the beginning that I was able to see only

13    two or three houses of that village from where I was.  The village itself

14    was in a depression.  I was able to see two or three houses only, so I

15    didn't misspeak.  I just heard gun-fire.  I couldn't determine whether it

16    was from left to the village, from right to the village, from behind, or

17    from where.

18       Q.   But, sir, from paragraph 12 in your statement you indicate that

19    you did not observe any movement or combat in the village.  So again I ask

20    you, how do you explain that in your statement you're placing no combat

21    activity whatsoever in that village, yet there very clearly was an

22    operation over the night of the third day going into the fourth morning

23    500 metres from you?

24       A.   You see, I did not see that operation that you are referring to

25    and I didn't participate in it and my part of the unit did not take part

 1    in it.  That's what I meant when I said that in the statement.  I don't

 2    know which passage from my statement that you're referring to.

 3            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I propose that the

 4    usher hand a copy of Mr. Gavrilovic's statement to the witness so he can

 5    follow.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Certainly.

 7            Ms. Carter.

 8            MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   Sir, if you can just read through paragraph 12 of your statement

10    and then I'll further ask some questions about it.  Once you've finished

11    reading it, if you can let me know.

12       A.   "Since it was the end of winter and the beginning of spring, the

13    weather was cold and foggy all the four days and we were barely able to

14    glimpse" --

15       Q.   Sir, we can all read paragraph 12 of your statement.  What I'm

16    more concerned about is that again you note:  "I did not observe any

17    movement or combat in the village."

18            The sentence does go on:  "But we did hear the place where we were

19    located that there was combat in the wide sector" --

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Slow down when reading, please.

21            MS. CARTER:

22       Q.   "There was combat in the wide sector ahead of us in the course of

23    those four days."

24            I asked you previously when marking the map if the operations that

25    you did hear were within Trnje or if they were in further placements.  You

 1    indicated that they were actually further than Trnje village.  I'm asking

 2    you now for a third time:  How does that correspond with P1995 that says

 3    there was, in fact, an operation ongoing 500 metres from you in Trnje

 4    village?  Are you now conceding that there was, in fact, an operation

 5    going on there and that you did, in fact, observe it?

 6            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment.

 8            Mr. Bakrac, just please let this question be answered.

 9            MS. CARTER:

10       Q.   Will you please answer my question.

11       A.   I did not understand the question, but if the question was -- I

12    wrote clearly that I had not observed any movement or combat from my

13    position, because from where I was, I couldn't see the village.  But it

14    was audible in the broader area around us, so I cannot determine whether

15    it was from a distance of 1 kilometre on my right or 500 metres on my

16    left.  I already explained.  Sporadic gun-fire was heard throughout the

17    four days, not only during the night.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

19            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would appreciate a

20    reference from Ms. Carter that combat was going on.  Where it says part of

21    the STS tried along the brook to pull out towards Lesane and Trnje, it

22    doesn't say that combat was going on there.  It says "had pulled out into

23    the villages of Trnje and Lesane."

24            I would just like a reference.

25            MS. CARTER:  I would invite counsel to look at the following

 1    paragraph that speaks to:  "In the course of the fourth day," the final

 2    sentence in which:  "The STS had pulled out into the villages of Trnje and

 3    Lesane during the night were also routed and crushed."

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Is that good enough, Mr. Bakrac?

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but attention was

 6    drawn to the third day and the withdrawal, and here we see when it is

 7    happening, the fourth day, and at what time.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  The question related to the whole period.

 9            Please continue, Ms. Carter.

10            MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

11       Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, I would direct your attention to the answer

12    that you actually had given previously on page 66 of today's transcript

13    when we were going over where combat operations were actually taking

14    place.  You had indicated that you could not be specific, but the question

15    I finally asked you is that the gun-fire that you did hear, do you believe

16    that was further away from you than where Trnje village featured and you

17    indicated roughly, yes.  Throughout that entire exchange you held on to

18    the position that nothing occurred in Trnje village.  And I want to know

19    from you, given that P1995 indicates that terrorists were being routed and

20    crushed 500 metres from you:  Either, 1, were you not that observant; or

21    2, were you telling the Court an inaccuracy?

22            MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour --

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. --

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say anything to the Court

25    about --

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Hold on.

 2            Mr. Ackerman.

 3            MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I maybe shouldn't have stood up, but

 4    the -- I think the questions are decidedly unfair --

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  I think we can judge when we read them in light of

 6    what's been said and what answer is given; but I don't think -- they may

 7    be difficult but they're not, on the face of it, unfair.

 8            MR. ACKERMAN:  Well, Your Honour, she's taken the position that

 9    the forces were in the village of Trnje and Lesane and action took place

10    there, and that paragraph about the third day says they attempted to pull

11    out along the creek to those villages but it never says that they actually

12    went to those villages, that they just attempted to go there.  And

13    attempted to go there probably means they didn't ever make it.  So for her

14    to suggest that there was a battle going on in those villages is just not

15    supported by this document.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  The fourth paragraph, last sentence, rather

17    undermines that proposition I think, and it is a matter of interpretation

18    in the end of the day for us to deal with.

19            Mr. Zecevic.

20            MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, actually Mr. Ackerman is right.

21    The translation of this document is not good.  It doesn't --

22            JUDGE BONOMY:  I don't think that's what he was saying,

23    Mr. Zecevic.

24            MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry?

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  I don't think that's what he's saying.
 1            MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, my understanding of the -- of the -- of the

 2    paragraph referring to the fourth day, it does -- the Serbian text is

 3    different from the actual English translation.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. --

 5            MR. ZECEVIC:  Maybe --

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  -- Gavrilovic, would you look at the paragraph

 7    dealing with the fourth day and would you read the last sentence, that's

 8    the last sentence only of that paragraph, and read it out to us.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Also, the Siptar terrorist forces

10    that had pulled out into the villages of Trnje and Lesane under the cover

11    of the night were routed and crushed."

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Is that wrong, Mr. Zecevic?

13            MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it would -- the way how it's translated, Your

14    Honour, it would suggest that there was a clash, and that they were routed

15    and crushed in the vicinity of these villages; but that is not what the

16    Serbian text says.  The Serbian text says they were routed and crushed and

17    then they pulled out towards the villages of Trnje and Lesane.  So --

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  But you can't -- I mean, that's rather illogical.

19            MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't know why?  They're informing in this combat

20    report that there has been a clash with the terrorist forces.  They were

21    routed and crushed, and then they pulled out; the terrorist forces pulled

22    out towards the village of Trnje and Lesane.  That is what it says in the

23    Serbian text.  I mean, I -- I don't want to really put the pressure on the

24    interpreters or anything, but I -- that is at least my understanding of

25    the Serbian.  I don't know if I'm correctly expressing myself in English,

 1    but that's the gist of it.  Thank you very much.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we'll try one final time in light of your

 3    comments, Mr. Zecevic.

 4            Could you please, Mr. Gavrilovic, read aloud that sentence again.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the last sentence?

 6            "Also what was carried out was the crushing and destroying of the

 7    Siptar terrorist forces, STS, which under the cover of night got out into

 8    the village of Trnje and Lesane."

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  A very literal translation.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, Ms. Carter, I doubt if there's any more to be

11    gained by further cross-examination on this particular point, and we shall

12    ask CLSS for a formal retranslation of that whole paragraph beginning:

13            "In the course of the fourth day ..."

14            MS. CARTER:  Certainly, Your Honour.  And the next topic I would

15    like to cover needs to be taken in private session.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.  We shall go into private session.

17            MS. CARTER:

18       Q.   Sir, you have --

19 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

20            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

21            MS. CARTER:

22       Q.   Sir, throughout your statement you have indicated that (redacted)

23    (redacted)were mistaken in their arguments that they were actually involved

24    in operations in and near Trnje village; is that correct?

25       A.   I didn't understand what it was that you asked me.  What was the

 1    mistake?  What was this mistake that was made?

 2       Q.   No.  I'm asking you -- you've indicated in our previous

 3    conversation that you were always on the hilltop, and while there may or

 4    may not have been anything going on near Trnje village, you were

 5    indicating that none of your men were involved in any sort of activity

 6    outside of standing guard on that hilltop; is that correct?

 7       A.   That is absolutely correct.  However, I didn't understand the last

 8    point --

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness to the

10    end.  Could other microphones please be switched off while he is speaking.

11    Thank you.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the question

13    refers to.

14            MS. CARTER:

15       Q.   I'm simply trying to confirm that it seems that there may have

16    been a mistaken with regards to what was going on in Trnje village.  I'm

17    just trying to determine how far that mistake may have gone.  You are now

18    saying that there may have been something going in -- in or near Trnje,

19    but your units most certainly were not involved in it.  Is that correct?

20       A.   As I've already said, my soldiers did not participate in anything;

21    that is to say we were going downhill.  Now, whether something was going

22    on in the village or not, I really don't know about that because I was at

23    a relatively far away distance; and I saw only two or three houses in the

24   village from the position where I was.

25  Q.   Sir, you have had the opportunity to read the statement of (redacted) and

 1    you were commenting on it within your own statement; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Within that statement, which is (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7    (redacted)in which some MUP reports were provided, they

 8    were P2305 and P2304, they are a part of that statement.

 9         Sir, both (redacted) as well as the exhibits P2305 and P2304 place four

10    civilians being shot at that same creek bed about 500 metres from Trnje in

11    the direction of Mamusa, which is directly on your position.  Can you

12  please explain how both (redacted) as well as the MUP were able to determine that

13    civilians were being killed near Trnje in your area of operation, yet you

14    believe none of your men were involved.

15       A.   If I understood you correctly, you said towards Mamusa, that is to

16    the left, that is not towards Trnje.  But certainly no one participated,

17    none of the men that I was with there.

18       Q.   Sir, to be specific, the bodies were found 500 to 800 metres from

19    Trnje in the direction of Mamusa, where you have described in paragraph 9

20    that the hill in which you were placed was between Mamusa and Trnje about

21    500 metres until you get to Trnje.  It's the exact same place or within a

22    couple of hundred metres.  Can you please explain if not your people, as

23    (redacted) alleges, then who were killing the civilians that the MUP found and

24    provided reports on?

25       A.   I really don't know what civilians this is about.  If we

 1    understand each other correctly, you're referring to a creek, and I'm

 2    saying that part of my unit was up on a hill that's far away.  In front of

 3    me there was a big meadow and then there was a brook or a creek in that

 4    field, so it's very far away from the place where I was with my men.  I

 5    really don't know who could have ...

 6            MS. CARTER:  Can we bring back the IC exhibit number --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  137, is it?

 8            MS. CARTER:  -- 137, please.

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry, yes, 173.

10            MS. CARTER:

11       Q.   Sir, throughout this area where your hilltop is, there are any

12    number of creeks and streams.  And (redacted) was quite specific where he had

13    indicated that he was deployed, and he was actually a part of the group

14    who eventually killed a number of civilians on that spot.  If you could

15    see Trnje or at least a few houses of it, how is it you were able to miss

16    the creek beds?

17       A.   Are you understanding me right?  I said that there was a field or

18    meadow in front of me and that there was a creek or brook in the middle of

19    that field.  I'm not saying that I did not see a creek at all.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Carter, is this a convenient time to interrupt

21    you?

22            MS. CARTER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Gavrilovic, we interrupt now for a break for an

24    hour.  Could you please leave the courtroom with the usher.

25                          [The witness stands down]

 1            MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I'm trying to be --

 2    I'm trying to be useful.  I don't know English very well, but on page 74,

 3    line 19, please take a look at it at the break.  I think that the answer

 4    is not there.  I think that the interpreters said that they didn't

 5    understand him.  If this is important, well and fine; if it's not, then I

 6    apologise for taking up your time.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  I think the witness went on to deal with it,

 8    Mr. Fila, when he said:  "I don't know what the question refers to," and

 9    then Ms. Carter asked it again.  So I don't know any harm has been done in

10    the end of the day.  Thank you.

11            We shall resume at 1.45.

12                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.47 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

14                          [The witness takes the stand]

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Carter.

16            MS. CARTER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17       Q.   Sir, when you were testifying on direct examination it appeared

18    that you were saying that the logistics battalion at all times was only

19    involved in supporting the units and was never involved in any sort of

20    combat operations.  Is that a correct understanding of your evidence?

21       A.   Yes, yes.

22       Q.   And is this a true statement throughout the war time?

23       A.   That's right.

24            MS. CARTER:  I'd like to bring up P3081, which was Milosevic

25    Exhibit 925, it's the war diary of the 549th, it's going to be page 115 in

 1    the English and page 167 in the B/C/S.

 2       Q.   Sir, within your units did you have a man by the name of Sergeant

 3    First Class Fezik?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Was there another logistics battalion for the 549th?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   I would direct you to the assignment, this is from May 29th of

 8    1999, where it's indicating an assignment for the logistics battalion.

 9    And in fact it goes on to say that:  "30 soldiers were sent on an

10    assignment in the area around," an illegible word, "that was the Prizren

11    military department in battle with the STS with members of the MUP and the

12    VJ and seven terrorists were killed."

13            Can you tell me then how you differentiate this assignment for the

14    logistics battalion if they're in operations and seven people are getting

15    killed, how is that not a combat operation?

16       A.   In my statement I already wrote and said that we directly took

17    part -- we did not take part in any combat operations directly -- well, a

18    few times we did, part of the unit, as I wrote in my statement; and in

19    this case about 30 men who were used only to prevent spillovers of

20    terrorists, or rather, to get them out of their positions.  As for this

21    particular mission, I don't know what this is about exactly.  It says

22    Fejzic here, Sergeant Fejzic, he was indeed a member of the logistics

23    battalion, whereas I heard a different name, Fe something in the

24    interpretation.

25       Q.   But, sir, my very first question to you was that when you were

 1    testifying on direct examination it appeared that you were saying that the

 2    logistics battalion at all times was only involved in supporting the units

 3    and was never involved in any sort of combat operations and you said --

 4            MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour --

 5            MS. CARTER:

 6       Q.   -- Yes, yes --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

 8            MR. ACKERMAN:  I rise again to protest fairness.  If you look at

 9    the document it's so clear that first of all you have logistics battalion:

10    And describes what it wants to describe with regards to logistics

11    battalion, which ends with 30 men being sent on an assignment, doesn't say

12    combat assignment, doesn't say to attack anybody.  And then the next

13    section deals with the Prizren military department, where there's a colon,

14    and describes what they did which has to do with what she's trying to lay

15    on this logistics battalion.  Just anybody could read that and figure out

16    that that's what it's about.  It's very clear.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Carter.

18            MS. CARTER:  That interpretation is available; however, the

19    witness at page 79, starting at line 1 specifically says:  "In my

20    statement I already wrote and said that we directly took part -- we did

21    not take part in the combat operations directly.  Well, a few times we did

22    a part of the unit, as I wrote in the statement."

23            There becomes a discrepancy because the witness very clearly on

24    direct examination and at the beginning of this examination was quick to

25    remove himself and any portion of his unit from combat operations, yet

 1    he's already conceding at page 79 that he in fact was, or at least

 2    portions of it were part of combat operations, and I'd like to explore

 3    that topic.  So while interpretation may be wrong, I think that we

 4    stumbled across the truth one way or another.

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just one moment.

 7            You spent considerable time examining the witnesses about the part

 8    the unit played in the blockade at Trnje.

 9            MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour; however, this is actually moving on

10    more to the May period --

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, but you can't possibly interpret his evidence

12    as being to the effect that they never participated in any form of combat.

13            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, during direct examination -- and

14    actually at page 79 starting at line 1 that is what he went on to say --

15    this unit only provide the logistics, I think there was one comment at the

16    very beginning of his testimony --

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, I've got that, but you're telling us that in

18    direct examination he said that they did not participate in any way in

19    combat, and that's not right.  This statement is part of his direct

20    examination.

21            MS. CARTER:  Yes, Your Honour but what they always say that they

22    were only a part of the blockade line in fact it went on -- I think it

23    went on with regards to a water truck, did you ever see a water truck in

24    the beginning.  So there was always the impression given that the only

25    thing this unit was doing was either providing a blockade line or

 1    providing support to the units that were in combat, and that's why I began

 2    asking at page 79 --

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Being part of a blockade is obviously involvement

 4    in some capacity in a combat operation; however, the particular point

 5    that's being made here is that what you presented was a misrepresentation

 6    of the war diary.  Now, I take it you accept that?

 7            MS. CARTER:  I believe they're -- when I was originally reading it

 8    to be quite frank, Your Honour, I didn't -- the semi-colon was lost upon

 9    me on the second -- so it is conceivable that Mr. Ackerman's assessment of

10    this is correct.  However, I would rely on line 79 -- sorry page 79, at

11    line 1, to begin asking questions about the combat -- direct

12    involvement --

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, there is no objection to you asking these

14    questions.  The only objection is to you characterizing the entry in the

15    war diary as indicative of combat.  So please proceed but without

16    reference to the war diary.

17            MS. CARTER:  Certainly.

18       Q.   Sir, you've now indicated to the Court that portions of your unit

19    did, in fact, become involved in direct combat operations.  When did that

20    occur?

21       A.   I did not say that they participated in direct combat operations.

22    I have to repeat that once again or you misunderstood me.

23       Q.   Sir, I'm quoting from your answer.

24            "In my statement, I already wrote and said that we directly took

25    part -- we did not take part in any combat operations directly -- well, a

 1    few times we did, part of the unit, as I wrote in my statement.  And in

 2    this case about 30 men who were used only to prevent spillovers of

 3    terrorists, or rather, to get them out of their positions."

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, what is that other than saying we participated

 5    in a blockade?

 6            MS. CARTER:  Your Honours, according to this witness, that the

 7    blockade is that they never left that hilltop and that that is the only

 8    thing they were doing.  (redacted)are much more in line with this

 9    description, that they did, in fact, go down and they were a part of

10    removing the terrorists --

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  That may be so, but you're accusing the witness of

12    saying something different from what he said already, and I'm having

13    difficulty identifying what the difference is.

14            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, I'm saying that --

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  And that's the second objection taken to your

16    cross-examination as being unfair to the witness, and that's a rather

17    strong accusation to make.  So can you point to me -- point out to me the

18    contradiction you say that exists in this evidence?

19            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, this witness is clearly saying that

20    there is a difference between direct involvement in combat operations and

21    the indirect involvement.  I'm trying to determine what was the direct --

22    when and if was there direct involvement, which is much more in line with

23    what (redacted)--

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Where does he say so far that there was -- that his

25    battalion was involved in direct combat operations?  Where does he say

 1    that?

 2            MS. CARTER:  At page 79, beginning at line 1, there appears to be

 3    a differentiation.  Mr. Ackerman then objected shortly thereafter, and I

 4    was not able to fully explore that --

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  It says here clearly:  "We did not take part in any

 6    combat operations directly," and then he goes on to explain that they did

 7    participate in a blockade.

 8            MS. CARTER:  It says "a few times," that does not isolate itself

 9    to one single incident, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  And you already have evidence from another witness

11    today about much more direct involvement, but in any event if you wish to

12    pursue this please do but based on appropriate questions and not unfair

13    representations of what the witness has said or what the war diary says.

14            MS. CARTER:  If Your Honour finds that there was better evidence

15    given to today --

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Not previous to today, we've had another witness

17    dealing with the same area today.

18            MS. CARTER:  Okay.

19       Q.   Sir, I would like to move on to P1981 in the English -- I'm sorry,

20    in the B/C/S it's page 6, section G; and in the English it's page 8 in the

21    first line, specifically drawing your attention to 8.7, subsection G

22    calling for the logistical support.  Sir, the witnesses (redacted)had

23    indicated that after the operation took place that was referred to in

24    P1995 that they were, in fact, involved in some sort of clean-up

25    operation.  However, in paragraph 13 of your statement you indicated that

 1    you never entered that village whatsoever but rather moved directly on to

 2    Prizren.  What I'm trying to determine is if the order that was coming

 3    from your superior command indicates that you were to clear up the

 4    battle-field by engaging your own forces and equipment and once the combat

 5    group -- I'm sorry, once the combat operations are over in cooperation

 6    with organs in the territory.  That seems consistent with their testimony.

 7    Are you telling me that every other member of the 549th was sent out to

 8    clean up this territory, but you however was not?

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, is my colleague

11    suggesting that the entire 549th Brigade went to clear or clean up the

12    battle-field?  I don't see where it pertains to the logistics battalion.

13    Where does it refer to the logistics battalion?  This is an order of the

14    commander of the entire 549th Brigade, and one cannot see who it is that

15    is exactly involved in the clean-up.

16            MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, if there is a combat

17    operation taking place 500 metres from this unit - and there's been

18    testimony from previous witnesses that they in fact were a part of that

19    clean-up - I'm trying to determine how this witness can somehow disengage

20    himself from that provision.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  This -- your question depends on an assumption that

22    the order from his superior indicates that he was to clear up the

23    battle-field.  Now, where do we see that?

24            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, this goes to -- well, first off it's

25    under logistical support is what begins 8.7 and the logistical support

 1    goes on -- talks about technical support, quarter-master support, medical

 2    support, it's going through, and it appears to give logistical tasks --

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yeah, but is it issued to the logistics battalion?

 4    It seems to be issued to Battle Groups 5, 6, 7, 1, and 2 of the 549th

 5    Motorised Brigade or am I misreading that?

 6            MS. CARTER:  That is what the receipt list indicates; however,

 7    this is the order that P1995, which is the combat report that we have been

 8    talking about quite exclusively in which this witness clearly says it is

 9    speaking about his unit and it placement.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  You should start this exercise again.  Your

11    question was really incomprehensible, Ms. Carter.  You need to make this

12    much simpler or much clearer, or it's going to be all wasted.

13            MS. CARTER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

14       Q.   When the combat operations were over after the fourth day as

15    described in P1995, what did your unit do?

16       A.   If you're referring to this concrete case that we were talking

17    about, that we have talked about already, I wrote about that in my

18    statement.  I had nothing to do with combat operations.  Once the task was

19    completed, my unit withdrew to Prizren.  We didn't do anything, no

20    clean-up, no clearing up of the terrain, nothing.

21       Q.   If there was, in fact, an operation that took place 500 metres

22    from you, who was then responsible for the clean-up of Trnje?

23       A.   I don't understand what clean-up of Trnje?  I had a specific task

24    and that's what I carried out.  I did not receive any other tasks nor did

25    I carry out any other tasks.

 1       Q.   Sir, if there was a mopping-up operation that took place in Trnje,

 2    would you agree with me that that would have provided some deaths or some

 3    other destruction to Trnje village?

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Don't answer that question.

 5            First of all, what is your basis for saying that there was a

 6    mopping-up operation in Trnje?  Let's put that to the witness so that he's

 7    got the factual basis.

 8            MS. CARTER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

 9       Q.   That would be P1995, the fourth day the last sentence that we've

10    been exploring quite frequently in this case where it says that:  "The STS

11    had pulled out" --

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, let's see it on the screen.

13            MS. CARTER:  Okay.

14            MR. BAKRAC:  [Microphone not activated]

15            JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment, Mr. Bakrac.  Let us see.

16            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It hasn't been announced, Your

17    Honour.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry, what has not been announced?

19            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The interpretation I got was document

20    1995.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  And there it is, hopefully.

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It hadn't been part of a notice at

23    all.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Let's enlarge the part that relates to the fourth

25    day.  It's the middle of the page, roughly.  Thank you.

 1                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, please proceed with your question.

 3            MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

 4       Q.   Sir, I would direct you to the final sentence where it says:

 5            "The STS had pulled out into the villages of Trnje and Lesane

 6    during the night, they were routed and crushed" --

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, you see, this is where we had a dispute about

 8    the translation, and the translation that Mr. Zecevic suggested was that

 9    they pulled out towards the villages of Trnje and Lesane after they had

10    been routed and crushed, and we asked for a formal translation from CLSS.

11    So I find it difficult to see how productive your questioning can be.

12            MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, we're only dealing with a

13    matter of metres.  If we look at --

14            JUDGE BONOMY:  Oh, I agree -- I understand that, but where is the

15    suggestion that Trnje was actually cleansed or mopped up or whatever the

16    word is?

17            MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, if you look at what occurred on the

18    third day as well as what occurred on the fourth day, the third day it

19    says:  "The STS forces attempted to pull out along the creek to the

20    villages of Trnje and Lesane," and then you look to that final sentence

21    where it says they had pulled out.  One says they were trying to and one

22    says they did do that into the villages of Trnje and Lesane during the

23    night, and they were also routed and crushed.  So if you look at the two

24    statements taken together, one is saying this was about to happen one said

25    it did in fact happen, and they were routed and crushed.  Thus, I believe

 1    that my questioning on this point is within the confines of P1995.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, your questioning depends on that being an

 3    accurate statement of what this document says.

 4            MS. CARTER:  Then in the event --

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Which is in issue at the moment.  But please

 6    proceed and see what answer you get.

 7            MS. CARTER:

 8       Q.   Sir, if there appears to be some sort of routing and crushing,

 9    either directly in Trnje or just near Trnje, who would be the group

10    responsible for cleaning up the battle-field?

11       A.   Well, I don't know in what sense you mean clean-up or mop-up of

12    the terrain.  I did not receive such an assignment.  I did not carry out

13    such an assignment; therefore, I don't know what group received such an

14    assignment.

15       Q.   It's found in 8.7, logistical support, in the original order from

16    the 549th.  So if you are the logistics battalion yet you are not assigned

17    to that type of support, what is the group that is?

18       A.   I don't understand, what group?  What does this question refer to,

19    what group?

20       Q.   We have heard evidence in this case from (redacted) that after

21    the Trnje operation, they actually went down into Trnje and were cleaning

22    up that area, and specifically that's where you get the testimony about

23    the truck being seized at Hygijena and other items.  What I am asking is

24    that if they are, in fact, lying and they weren't any sort of any clear-up

25    operation, who would be the group in this area that would have been

 1    responsible for that clean up?

 2       A.   I don't know that, what group was responsible for any kind of

 3    clean up.

 4            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Gavrilovic, we constantly see in this courtroom

 5    orders directing a unit or other -- or units to clear up the

 6    battle-field, "asanacija" I think is the word that's used; is that a

 7    concept you're not familiar with?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have heard of that, but it's

 9    not that I got any task related to "asanacija," cleaning up the

10    battle-field, or did I see any such thing ordered here.

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  It tends to happen where there has been a battle

12    and somebody has been routed and crushed, which seems to have happened

13    here.  Can you not help us with who had the task of clearing up at Trnje

14    or in the area surrounding Trnje?  You were only 500 metres away, after

15    all.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't know of anyone having

17    the attack -- the task to carry out the clean up of that terrain.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Carter.

19            MS. CARTER:

20       Q.   The final topic I'd like to speak with you about is in regards to

21    some criminal reports and investigations that actually name you as a

22    defendant.  I want to pull up P982 at page 23 of the English and page 6 of

23    the B/C/S, it's entry number 82.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, is he a defendant in current criminal

25    proceedings?

 1            MS. CARTER:  This is what I'm trying to determine.  It's blank in

 2    with regards to the final disposition on this.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac.

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the number is

 5    correct, the P number mentioned in the transcript, 982, I don't have it on

 6    my list of exhibits for this witness.

 7            MS. CARTER:  And respectfully that is correct because it is 962, I

 8    apologise, it is the list of filed criminal reports against perpetrators

 9    in the 549th.  I misspoke.

10            It appears we have the correct page in the English and not in the

11    B/C/S.  It's going to be entry 82, it's page 6 of the B/C/S.

12       Q.   Sir, entry 82 lists actually a Major Pavle Gavrilovic of military

13    post 4445/12.  It does appear that this is a misidentification of your

14    rank; however, that is your military post, is that correct, or was at the

15    time?

16       A.   That's right.  If it pertains to the year 2000, I was a major by

17    then, or rather, 1999 too.  I was a major already then too.

18       Q.   So the rank is correct.  Now, according to this, you were charged

19    under Article 174 for abuse of office.  That is actually codified within

20    the FRY criminal code which is at P1736.  It indicates that you were being

21    charged with abuse of office.  Article 174 indicates that -- it's a charge

22    against an official who by abusing his office or authority exceeding the

23    limits of his official authority or failing to perform his official duties

24    obtains a benefit for himself or another, causes damage to another, or

25    seriously violates the rights of another.  It goes on to give the

 1    punishment range.

 2            What occurred that you were being charged or being investigated

 3    under Article 174, abuse of office?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which specific case

 5    you're talking about.  The only time I ever went to court, the only time I

 6    gave an affidavit in court - and it can't be anything else what you're

 7    talking about, there was just that one time that is categorised here or

 8    described as abuse of office and so on and so forth; so what was this

 9    about?  During NATO aggression there was this van that was found in an

10    area covered by my unit, a vehicle, a van.  After that, some documents

11    were drawn up that were necessary under the regulations, the documents

12    that were required.  So whether anyone thought they saw something or

13    anybody reported theft that the van had been stolen or something like

14    that, well the only thing that matter is in 1999 or 2000 I had to go to

15    court back at our place, I showed my documents, the documents that I was

16    in possession of, and the case was thrown out.  I was never punished nor

17    indeed had I ever done anything, and I committed absolutely no abuse of

18    office.

19       Q.   Sir, why would you have been charged under the FRY code, which

20    would be criminal offences against official duty by federal officials, as

21    opposed to to being charged under the Serbian criminal code which tends to

22    be where you find things such as theft, murder, and other common-law

23    crimes.  Why were you being charged under the FRY code?

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

25            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, let the witness answer the question.

 1    You may have the explanation, but it's for him to deal with this.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  I'm not even

 3    familiar with the provisions of this law.  I'm not even sure that we're

 4    talking about the same thing because there was just this one time that I

 5    had to go to court about anything at all, and that's the time I told you

 6    about, and I have no idea about this criminal code or anything.  I really

 7    don't know.

 8            MS. CARTER:

 9       Q.   Okay.  Now, you've said repeatedly that you've only been charged

10    once and nothing ever occurred of it.  I'd like to direct your attention

11    to P3080, this is a report on the work of the judicial organs from 18 May

12    1999.  In this, it indicates that you were actually -- a criminal report

13    was filed against you in this case based on a violation of equality of

14    citizens, which is what's codified under Article 186 of the FRY criminal

15    code and specifically it reads that:

16            "An official who on grounds of difference, nationality, race,

17    religion, political or other beliefs, ethnicity, gender, language,

18    education, or social position denies or restricts the rights of citizens

19    laid down by the constitution, the law or any other regulation or general

20    enactment or ratified international treaty or who on grounds of this

21    difference grants citizens privileges or advantages."

22            And it indicates that there shall be a punishment range.  Sir, if

23    this criminal report was filed against you, how is this involving a van

24    and what took place when you were charged under 186?

25       A.   I don't know.  I've never seen this before.  No one has ever told

 1    me about anything like this, no one has ever accused me of anything.  This

 2    is the first I see of it, and you're the first one to tell me about it.

 3       Q.   So you --

 4            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Sorry I'm interrupting.  I'm here, Witness.

 5            Please tell me you went to court, there must be a subpoena or a

 6    summons calling you to court, what were the allegations, were you charged,

 7    were you not charged, you have to tell us that.  Because saying that you

 8    just walked into the court, it was not a courtesy call.  They do not call

 9    people for a little explanation, this is the simple reaction where this

10    may have happened; but this is a court calling you, so what really what

11    happened?  What was the charge?

12                          [Trial Chamber confers]

13            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  We have not got reply even about the first one,

14    this may not be true.  But tell us, you admit that you have been once to

15    the court, what was the charge?  What happened?   What the judge tell you,

16    what you told the judge?  What were the allegations, so we find out?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I misphrased my first

18    answer.  I wasn't standing before a court in the sense of being tried.  I

19    had to go and see an investigating judge who was investigating certain

20    allegations.  The allegations that I explained, and then I came up with

21    some documents which I showed to the investigating magistrate, and the

22    case was thrown out, or rather, the investigation was terminated, whatever

23    the correct expression is, it was dropped.

24            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Thank you.

25            MS. CARTER:

 1       Q.   Sir, I would now like to direct your attention to P3079, in

 2    subsection 2, that it indicated that:  The military prosecutor's office

 3    submitted 28 requests for investigation to competent military courts, one

 4    of them was against you, this time we have a charge listed under 176 of

 5    the FRY Criminal Code.  176 is fraud in the discharge of office,

 6    specifically:

 7            "An official who in the discharge of his duties and with intent to

 8    obtain unlawful material benefit for himself or for another submits false

 9    statements of account or otherwise deceives an authorised person into

10    making an unlawful disbursement," and then it gives the punishment ranges.

11            Do you know anything about this investigation against you?

12       A.   I don't know about this investigation that was launched, but I see

13    this is obviously the same thing that I have been talking about; it was

14    about this van that was found in the deployment area of my unit.  Someone

15    or other may have reported a case of theft, I really don't know, but it

16    can't possibly be in reference to anything else simply because I'm totally

17    clueless about any other reports or investigations or anything like that.

18       Q.   Okay.  So this one may or may not be what you're talking about;

19    however, you have no indication about any charges that were levied against

20    you under Article 174, abuse of office or power, or under 186 violation of

21    equality of citizens.  You have no knowledge of either of these two

22    charges?

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, he does.  He's told you -- he's dealt with

24    the 174 and he has no knowledge of the 186, as I understand it.

25            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, there's three, 174 is listed in P982 --

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, that's the -- 962 is the correct number.

 2            MS. CARTER:  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE BONOMY:  And that's the one where he was charged with abuse

 4    of office, it was investigated by an investigating judge, he produced the

 5    records according to him, and that was it.  Have I misunderstood that?

 6            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, there are two separate articles.  He's

 7    indicated that that is this van as well as the charge under 176, which is

 8    3079, that that --

 9            JUDGE BONOMY:  All he's saying is he thinks it may be the same.

10            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, this is two completely different

11    criminal codes.  I'm trying to determine which if any of these is the van

12    and what explanation if any he has for the other two.

13            JUDGE BONOMY:  But one is -- one is an abuse of office, the other

14    is fraud in discharge of office, and he says he's only been involved in a

15    court investigation on one occasion.  So what more do you expect to get

16    from him?

17            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, given that we have heard much evidence

18    about the functioning of the military courts, how once these reports get

19    filed they were properly investigated, they went to an investigative

20    judge, et cetera, et cetera, it appears that this witness is contradicting

21    what that procedure actually took place on the ground.  So I want to

22    develop that a little bit further.  Obviously this witness -- he's

23    indicating that he's only aware of one charge, yet we have documents from

24    the military that he, in fact, has been charged under three separate codes

25    and most concerning of all is the violation of equality of citizens.  I'm
 1    not clear how that has anything to do with the matter.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Ms. Carter, two of your documents are requests for

 3    investigation and no more than that, and the one which goes further he has

 4    dealt with.  Now, you're perfectly entitled to pursue these, but please

 5    don't misrepresent what you've got in front of you.

 6            MS. CARTER:  Your Honour, one is actually a request for

 7    investigation one is a criminal report --

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Which one is the criminal report?

 9            MS. CARTER:  The criminal report is P3080.  It says:  "The

10    military prosecutor's office received 59 criminal reports for processing,"

11    and it enumerates these.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.  My apologies, but that's a criminal

13    report and that's as far as you seem to have got it at the moment.

14    However, please continue with appropriate questions.

15            MS. CARTER:

16       Q.   Sir, when a complaint is levied against an officer within the VJ,

17    is it commonplace for the person to at minimum be questioned about the

18    criminal report?

19       A.   Of course, yes.  Or at least I think so.

20       Q.   All right.  Yet in this case you said you were only questioned

21    once.  Can you tell me what time-period you were actually being questioned

22    or what the approximate date of the offence was?

23       A.   I really can't remember when that was, but I do know that it

24    was -- I don't know.  Certainly -- I can't remember the exact date.  I

25    know that I did see an investigating judge.  I made a statement, I showed

 1    him the documents about that van, what I told you about before, and that

 2    was the only and that is the only report that I am aware of nor did anyone

 3    question me on any other occasion.  I don't think charges were pressed

 4    ever because I never faced a court.

 5       Q.   Are you at least given notice that -- when charges -- or when a

 6    complaint is filed against you?

 7       A.   No.

 8                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9            MS. CARTER:  As it appears that this witness can't enlighten us

10    any further as regards the work of the legal affairs organ, I pass the

11    witness.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Ms. Carter.

13            Mr. Bakrac, and can you tell us whether we can go into open

14    session or not.

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I believe we can.

16    I have a single question about a particular document.

17                          [Open session]

18            THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19                          Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Gavrilovic, a single question for you.

21            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit P1981.

22                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, this exhibit is under seal, so we will

24    not --

25            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

 1            JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we can still have the evidence in open

 2    session, but the exhibit will not be published beyond the courtroom.

 3            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That's fine.  I

 4    just need the last page of this document, the last page to see who it was

 5    delivered to.

 6       Q.   So my learned friend Ms. Carter showed you paragraph G about the

 7    clean up of the battle-field.  Please look at the very bottom of the

 8    document, the left-hand corner, you don't have to read this back to us, we

 9    can see who it was delivered to.  But my question is:  Was this order at

10    all delivered to your logistics battalion?

11       A.   No, I said so, didn't I, a while ago, I mean ...

12       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Gavrilovic.

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

14    witness, Your Honour.

15            MS. CARTER:  Respectfully, Your Honour, with regards to P1981 the

16    reason it was under seal is because it came in with one of the protected

17    witnesses.  We saw no reason for the document to remain under seal.

18            JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.  We shall lift the seal on that

19    document.

20            Just before we finish, could you look at paragraph 5.6 of that

21    document, please.

22            Can you magnify that.

23                          Questioned by the Court:

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Could you read aloud, please, paragraph -- well,

25    the first two lines of paragraph 5.6.

 1       A.   "Blockade at the line.  TT 357 Trnje village," probably "Jezero

 2    facility, Mistra facility TT 330, Smac village TT 316, Donja Srbica

 3    village.  Ceramija [phoen] carried out by parts of the logistics

 4    battalion, signals company HAD and parts of SART PVO."

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  What does HAD mean?

 6       A.   SART PVO self-propelled rocket artillery battalion of the

 7    anti-aircraft defence.

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  And what does SART PVO stand for?

 9       A.   That's it, SART PVO.  That's what I said.  I don't know what the

10    interpretation was, but I'm looking at the Serbian.

11            JUDGE BONOMY:  No, the interpretation was something rather

12    different, but it all relates to the one unit.  Thank you very much.

13            Mr. Gavrilovic, that completes your evidence.  Thank you for

14    coming to give evidence.  You may now leave the courtroom with the usher.

15                          [The witness withdrew]

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic.

17            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Our next witness is

18    Mr. Radomir Mladenovic.  In the meanwhile we informed OTP and other lawyer

19    and subject of colleagues that Mr. Mladenovic will testify live one hour.

20            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

21                          [The witness entered court]

22            MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I need to be excused for about three

23    minutes and there's no reason you can't go forward without me, I think.

24            JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.  Thank you very much.

25            Good afternoon, Mr. Mladenovic.

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  Could you please make the solemn declaration to

 3    speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

 4    you.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

 6    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please take a seat.

 8            You will now be examined by Mr. Cepic on behalf of Mr. Lazarevic.

 9            Mr. Cepic.

10            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                          WITNESS:  RADOMIR MLADENOVIC

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                          Examination by Mr. Cepic:

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

15       A.   Good afternoon.

16       Q.   Esteemed colleague, for the benefit of the transcript, please

17    state your full name.

18       A.   Radomir Mladenovic.

19       Q.   Thank you.  When and where were you born?

20       A.   I was born on 10th of July, 1960, in the village of Srezovce,

21    which is in Kosovo and Metohija, Republic of Serbia.

22       Q.   Thank you.

23       A.   I am a national of Serbia.

24       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, tell us about your educational background.

25       A.   I graduated from the law faculty in Sarajevo, and then I took the
 1    bar exam in Belgrade after that, the top schools.

 2       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, what do you do today?

 3       A.   Since May 2005 I have been working as a district judge in Nis.  I

 4    still hold the same post.

 5       Q.   That judicial system works in a different way and there are

 6    several different kinds of judges.  What exactly do you do in your

 7    capacity as district judge?

 8       A.   I am the president of the so-called trial chamber, I preside over

 9    a trial chamber that rules on any charges submitted by the district

10    prosecutor in Nis.

11       Q.   What kind of law are we talking about?

12       A.   Criminal law.

13       Q.   I will ask you one thing, sir.  When I ask a question and you

14    start your answer, please make a short pause before your answer so that

15    everything may be entered into the transcript accurately.

16            Mr. Mladenovic, which post were you holding back in 1998 and 1999?

17       A.   In 1998 and all the way up to the beginning of the war, I was a

18    judge with the military court in Nis.

19       Q.   When the war broke out and during the war, what was your

20    responsibility?

21       A.   When a state of war was declared, I was assigned to Pristina.

22    During the war I worked as president of the military court that was

23    attached to the Pristina Corps command.

24       Q.   Do you perhaps remember on which date you took up your duty there?

25       A.   On the 25th of March when a state of emergency was declared I

 1    reported to Pristina.  At first there had been a decree to appoint me the

 2    president of the military court of the commands of the Pristina Military

 3    District.  On the 25th I reported and we set up this court, I mean the

 4    military district court.  And then on the 27th of March, three days later,

 5    I was informed that by presidential decree, federal presidential decree, I

 6    had been appointed president of the military court of the Pristina Corps

 7    command.  I took up my post on that day.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  During the war, how many military courts were there in

 9    Kosovo and Metohija?

10       A.   There were two that were operating, the one where I served as

11    president, the one that was attached to the Pristina Corps command; and

12    there was another one attached to the Pristina Military District command,

13    so those were the two.

14       Q.   In terms of jurisdiction, over what persons did you have

15    jurisdiction?

16       A.   I can tell you about the military court that was attached to the

17    Pristina Corps command, although I do know what the other one had

18    jurisdiction over as well.  According to the rules governing the work of

19    military courts in a state of war, the courts that were set up and were

20    attached to certain commands - in this specific case the Pristina Corps

21    command had jurisdiction over criminal matters when crimes were committed

22    by military persons who were members of the corps, and also in relation to

23    some crimes committed by civilians against the Army of Yugoslavia.

24       Q.   The court attached to the command of the military district has

25    what jurisdiction?

 1       A.   That court also had jurisdiction over all members of the district,

 2    military personnel, that is, and civilians who committed crimes against

 3    the Army of Yugoslavia or its members.

 4       Q.   In the territory of Kosovo and Metohija during the war there were

 5    other units as well, including units of air force and anti-aircraft

 6    defence.  These two courts that you mentioned, did they have jurisdiction

 7    over the members of air force and anti-aircraft defence?

 8       A.   No.  Those were under the jurisdiction over a court attached to

 9    the command of air force and anti-aircraft defence.  However, for purposes

10    of expediency and efficiency, it was possible for a higher court, the

11    supreme military court, to send a delegation of our corps court to

12    adjudicate such matters, but only along the principles of delegation at

13    the proposal of the prosecutor.

14       Q.   I will dwell a bit longer on jurisdiction.  You said that the

15    military court had jurisdiction over any crime against the Army of

16    Yugoslavia.  If, for example, a civilian had admitted a criminal act

17    against a member of the Army of Yugoslavia who was not on duty at the

18    moment, which court had the jurisdiction?

19       A.   In that case, a regular civilian court would have jurisdiction.

20    The military court would have jurisdiction only if the crime was committed

21    against the member of the Army of Yugoslavia on duty.  In every other

22    case, the civilian court would be in charge.

23       Q.   What about members of the MUP?

24       A.   Well, members of the Ministry of the Interior, the police, are not

25    military personnel, and the law governing the military courts stipulates

 1    that military courts have jurisdiction over military personnel,

 2    enumerating them by category.  Policemen are not listed there.  Therefore,

 3    the court that I presided over did not try members of the MUP.

 4       Q.   Who was in charge of them?

 5       A.   Regular courts in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

 6            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  I just wanted to learn something.  Kindly tell me

 7    if a case like a sabotage had taken place or something against the state

 8    which attracts military law and there's a civilian with a military person,

 9    will such a case also go to a civilian court?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the criminal act of sabotage is

11    involved targeting military installations or military personnel, then the

12    military court would have jurisdiction.  If other facilities are involved,

13    then the military court is not in charge.

14            MR. CEPIC:  Your Honour, may I continue?

15            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Thank you.

16            JUDGE NOSWORTHY:  There's a question that I wish to ask just to

17    follow-up on that one.

18            What if in the event a member of the police had committed an

19    offence against a member of the military, would the military court have

20    jurisdiction in that case?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that kind of case, military court

22    has exclusive jurisdiction because the military court has jurisdiction in

23    all cases where the injured party is a military person; however, only if

24    that person was on duty.  If he got into a brawl with a soldier somewhere

25    in a bar, then the military court would have nothing to do with it because

 1    the soldier was not on duty.

 2            JUDGE NOSWORTHY:  So just when he's acting in the course of his

 3    duties but not in a personal capacity, thank you.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry to keep you back, Mr. Cepic.

 6            I don't think you answered one aspect of Judge Chowhan's question,

 7    which was:  If you have a military person who is serving at the time, on

 8    duty, commits -- committing a crime along with a civilian against a

 9    civilian, is it the military court or the civilian court which has

10    jurisdiction?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That depends on the mode of

12    complicity.  If they are accomplices, then the military court has some

13    jurisdiction considering that one of the perpetrators is a military

14    person, if they are co-perpetrators; and the military court remains in

15    charge always in such cases.  If they committed a crime against civilians

16    as co-perpetrators, then the military court also tries the civilian.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you very much.

18            Mr. Cepic.

19            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20       Q.   [Interpretation] Now, again about jurisdiction, did civilian

21    courts operate during the war?

22       A.   Yes, of course.  I know that in Kosovo and Metohija during the

23    state of war there were five district courts and 19 municipal courts, and

24    they all operated.

25       Q.   I know it is very difficult to express this in figures or in a

 1    ratio, the relationship between military and civilian courts in terms of

 2    actual or personal jurisdiction, but can you try?

 3       A.   If we bear in mind that these two courts in the territory of

 4    Kosovo and Metohija, figuratively speaking, were supposed to try members

 5    of the Pristina Corps, I don't know what the strength of the Pristina

 6    Corps was at the time, let's say 50 to 60.000, and if we take it that

 7    there were certainly over a million citizens of age in Kosovo and Metohija

 8    in total, then you can use it for purposes of comparison.

 9       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, during this trial it was emphasised that there was

10    a request to resubordinate MUP forces to the army, and it was not

11    implemented.  Several witnesses stressed that.  Legally speaking, if

12    resubordination had happened, would officers of the army have been able to

13    discipline members of the MUP?

14       A.   I don't think so because disciplinary liability in the army is

15    governed by the Rules of Service and the Rule of Military discipline.

16    Members of the MUP and their disciplinary liability is regulated by the

17    Law on Internal Affairs.  And during the war there was a decree governing

18    disciplinary liability.  Second, as far as military personnel is

19    concerned, a soldier can be punished by detention; an officer can be

20    convicted to two months in military prison by a military disciplinary

21    court, whereas these sanctions were not applicable to members of the MUP.

22    That's why I believe it would be incompatible.

23       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mladenovic.  Very briefly, let's try to clarify one

24    point that perhaps remained unclear in prior testimony.  Which laws

25    governed substantial criminal law?

 1       A.   At the level of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, there was the

 2    criminal law, the penal code of the FRY, and each republic, Serbia and

 3    Montenegro, had their own penal codes.  The federal penal code stipulated

 4    such things as basic criminal acts, criminal liability, and sanctions, but

 5    republics also -- for instance, the federal law dealt with crimes against

 6    military personnel, and the federal law also dealt with crimes in federal

 7    authorities, whereas republican laws dealt with criminal acts against

 8    persons acting in an official capacity.

 9       Q.   In federal and in republican laws, both, we find the same criminal

10    acts.  If a military person commits a crime prescribed by these two laws,

11    which law applies, the federal or the republic law?

12       A.   In the federal law we don't have classic crimes against property.

13    We have laws that deal with property offences that are very grave and

14    concern official property.  Republic laws regulate theft, property, et

15    cetera.  For instance, if you have the crime of abuse of official

16    authority that results in embezzlement and things like that, then that is

17    regulated by the federal law; but that is a criminal act which has

18    property feature.

19       Q.   Abuse of official authority is also governed by a republic law,

20    right?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   But if a military person commits such a crime, which law applies?

23       A.   The federal law should apply because that military person is at

24    the same time an authorised officer in a federal agency because the Army

25    of Yugoslavia is a federal agency, a federal institution, and that's why

 1    the federal law would apply.

 2       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, who had the authority to file criminal reports?

 3       A.   In principle, anybody.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  If an officer of the army reports a crime, where does

 5    his obligation stop in relation to further processing of that crime?

 6       A.   It ends with the act of reporting it.  It would even be

 7    inappropriate for him to try to inquire any further or to try to influence

 8    the process any further because the matter is from that point on in the

 9    hands of the competent authorities such as the military courts.

10       Q.   To make this absolutely clear because we are coming from a

11    different judicial system, could you explain various phases of proceedings

12    that precede the indictment?

13       A.   According to our Law on Criminal Procedure, we are talking now

14    about the relevant period of the indictment, year 1999, it is the

15    prosecutor that receives criminal reports.  When he receives a criminal

16    report with various appendices, the prosecutor has to evaluate whether

17    there is a well-grounded suspicion that the allegations are true.  And if

18    the prosecutor decides that there is a prima facie case then he will ask

19    the competent investigative judge to conduct an investigation; and the

20    investigation already falls into the category of pre-criminal proceedings.

21       Q.   So how many stages are there?

22       A.   Before the indictment, there is the so-called pre-criminal phase

23    that the investigative judge conducts with the police and other

24    authorities.  Then there is the preliminary proceedings, which is already

25    in the category of court proceedings.  After that, if the evidence is

 1    sufficient, the prosecutor issues an indictment which is subject to

 2    verification by three judges, in case there are any objections.  When the

 3    indictment enters into force, the trial can proceed and those were the

 4    stages at the time we are discussing.

 5       Q.   In response to my previous question you said that the judicial

 6    authorities were independent in their work and free of any influence from

 7    outside.  I would like to know whether there were any attempts to

 8    influence your work and the work of the judges of the Pristina Corps.

 9       A.   I was judge of the military court in Nis for 11 years.  It never

10    ever happened that anyone attempted to or had any influence on our work.

11    It was more likely to have a wink-and-a-nod kind of suggestion to help one

12    accused or the another.

13                          [Defence counsel confer]

14            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   I don't think we have proper interpretation of your previous

16    answer.  I'll ask you a brief question and you give me a brief answer,

17    please.  Did anyone during the war try to influence you or other judges of

18    the Pristina Corps?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   Thank you.

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  I think we'll have a formal translation by CLSS --

22            MR. CEPIC:  Yes, thank you.

23            JUDGE BONOMY:  -- of page 109, lines 8 -- sorry -- yes, line 22 to

24    25.

25            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  I'm sorry, there's a little more I just want to

 1    learn about your system.  How were the cases assigned if there were more

 2    than one court, who did it and what was the criteria?  And secondly, did

 3    anybody ask you for a progress report?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cases were assigned depending on

 5    when the criminal reports reached the appropriate office.  I'm not sure if

 6    you can hear me.  I'm not sure what reports you have in mind.  Our duty

 7    was to inform the superior court.

 8            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  The entrustment of cases if there are more judges,

 9    who would entrust case to which one I mean, who was in charge of

10    entrustment or marking of cases to a court?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the state of war, the

12    Pristina Corps court had three investigating judges and four of those who

13    tried the actual cases.  I was one of those four because I was the

14    president of that court.  Cases were assigned on the following basis:  A

15    sequence would be established in terms of when they got there, when they

16    reached the registry of the court.  I was given one case as the president

17    and then the next judge and then the next judge, one by one; so that was

18    the system that we used.  What I'm trying to say is this, there was no

19    particular sequence.  It's not that cases were selected specially in order

20    to be assigned to someone.  This is exactly what the rules say, too, that

21    cases should be assigned and tried in the order in which they are

22    received.  My apologies.  Just another additional explanation.

23            As for investigations, it really depended on who the investigative

24    judge happened to be who was on a certain case [as interpreted].

25            JUDGE CHOWHAN:  Thank you.

 1            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I continue?  Thank you.

 2       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mladenovic, how many cases did you handle

 3    personally during the war?

 4       A.   I do remember because I continued to work for the military court

 5    in Nis after the war, immediately after the state of war was declared

 6    over.  I drafted reports for myself and for the supreme military court,

 7    and I know that during the war we conducted investigations of about 8.000

 8    [as interpreted] persons, over 900 of those being indicted eventually.

 9            MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, page 111, 12; I believe the

10    witness says:  It depended on who of the investigative judges happened to

11    be on duty.

12            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On duty.

14            MR. CEPIC:  And one more error in transcript, page 111, line 20,

15    investigation about 8.000, it is not 8.000, witness said 1.000.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

17            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you.

18       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mladenovic, if you were dealing with crimes

19    that potentially constituted violations of the international laws of war,

20    how many indictments like that did you have?  I know that you can't be all

21    that specific.

22       A.   About 230 over a total of these 900 that I mentioned.

23       Q.   What kind of crimes predominantly?

24       A.   Various forms of murder, robbery, theft, aggravated theft,

25    vehicles being seized, crimes against personal dignity and morale,

 1    sex-related offences.

 2       Q.   Do you perhaps remember how many officers were prosecuted for such

 3    crimes, not ordinary soldiers, officers?

 4       A.   If you look at both these military courts a total of about 40

 5    military officers.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mladenovic, we heard evidence several days ago in

 7    this courtroom about a major of the VJ Dragisa Petrovic, more specifically

 8    it was said that along with another two soldiers, he committed murder.

 9    Are you perhaps familiar with this case?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Do you perhaps know what the conviction was by the Supreme Court?

12       A.   Major Dragisa Petrovic got nine years and the two soldiers got

13    seven each.  They are all now serving their sentence at the correctional

14    penal institute in Nis.

15       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mladenovic, were there any crimes that were

16    discovered after the war?

17       A.   Indeed.  After the war when the peacetime military court in Nis

18    had already started operating, to call it that, requests for

19    investigations started arriving about crimes such as the ones that we have

20    been discussing.

21       Q.   Are you familiar with the Mancic case?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Were any rape cases tried later on?

24       A.   No, not later on.  There was a rape case involving three soldiers

25    who were indicted during the war, sometime in May 1999, I believe.  They

 1    were accused of having raped three young ladies.  They were on remand at

 2    the time.  I was the one who went forward with this indictment, and I am

 3    privy to its detail.  If you want to know more, just say so.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mladenovic, what about after the war, were there

 5    any problems in terms of gathering evidence for trials?

 6       A.   Yes.  If I may, I would like to refer once more to the case that

 7    we discussed a minute ago, the rape case.  Those young ladies who were

 8    victims could not be interviewed while we were still in Kosovo and

 9    Metohija.  As president of that chamber, I appealed to the international

10    authorities and the local authorities in Kosovo and Metohija, as well as

11    the civilian courts, to try to interview those young ladies or maybe to

12    have them escorted to the military court in Nis so that I might be given a

13    chance to interview them.  Unfortunately, all of our appeals were turned

14    down.  And after the military court in Nis was abolished, the case was

15    forwarded to another civilian court.

16       Q.   What about other investigations, did the same problems occur in

17    relation to the gathering of evidence in any other investigations?

18       A.   Yes, especially during the first two or three years after the war.

19    It was always risky to try to get anything at all from Kosovo and

20    Metohija.  Secondly, the postal system was not operating properly and the

21    communications system; therefore, it was very difficult to handle these

22    cases before the military court in Nis.

23       Q.   Did you submit any requests within your own administration system,

24    requests for assistance?

25       A.   Yes, both in the case that we mentioned a while ago and in the

 1    Mancic case.

 2            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Exhibit 3D1061.

 3    Thank you.

 4                          [Defence counsel confer]

 5            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, there's a part

 6    of my question that wasn't recorded.  May I please repeat the question

 7    just in order to clarify?

 8            JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

 9            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, did you submit requests to the UNMIK

11    administration and the legal authorities in Kosovo and Metohija for

12    assistance in these cases?

13       A.   In the rape case the answer is yes; as for the more recent one, I

14    appealed to the district court in Prizren for assistance.

15       Q.   What sort of cooperation did you have?

16       A.   Sometime in July last year I sent them a letter in order to

17    continue to go on with the trial all the way up until December last year.

18    I never received anything in return, so the trial was deferred until March

19    because I believe that they might, given more time, forward the documents

20    that we had requested.

21       Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at the document that is on our

22    screens.

23       A.   Yes, I have looked at it.

24       Q.   During your -- before I proofed you, had you ever seen this

25    document?

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Is this the sort of information that affected any proceedings or

 3    is this the kind of information that you ever received that was delivered

 4    to you?

 5       A.   No, this sort of information was never delivered to us, and I

 6    don't think they could have affected proceedings in any way, especially as

 7    far as this was concerned, the proceedings that were underway before the

 8    military court in Nis.

 9       Q.   The English translation is not really crystal clear, but there's a

10    reference here to the fact that there were suspicions that members of the

11    TG 2 or members of the Lipljan MUP had committed this crime, and the

12    village mentioned there is Mali Alas.  Are you familiar with that village,

13    sir?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What can you tell me about this village?

16       A.   I learned everything that I learned in my official capacity as the

17    president of the court that was attached to the corps.  I learned that the

18    military prosecutor, who was also attached to the corps command, having

19    learned of this incident went to the area to carry out an on-site

20    investigation.  And he requested the court to launch an investigation in

21    order to shed light on the circumstances under which these civilians had

22    come to grief.  They thought that maybe during the investigation they

23    might track down the perpetrators, or rather, that was the purpose of the

24    steps that were taken.  And then we pressed on.  Our forensic team, a team

25    of experts from the military medical academy, was sent to the site.  There

 1    was an investigating judge who was in charge of the team that carried out

 2    the exhumation work, and this was something that was handled during the

 3    war and later by the military court in Nis.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have Defence Exhibit

 6    5D1313.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Before you move on, Mr. Cepic, is that translation

 8    accurate at line 18 of page 115, "this sort of information was never

 9    delivered to us and I don't think they could have affected

10    proceedings ..."

11            What's being said here, is it inappropriate for the military

12    prosecutor to forward this material?  If the interpretation's accurate,

13    then I will ask some questions myself, but ...

14            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is a judge

15    and not a prosecutor, and the interpretation is correct because a judge is

16    not the same thing as a prosecutor and they are independent.

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Mladenovic, looking again at the document again

18    on the screen, why would you never receive this sort of information?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said was that I did not

20    receive this information specifically --

21            JUDGE BONOMY:  I understand that, but the translation says: "This

22    sort of information was never delivered to us ..."

23            So you're confining that answer to this information in this

24    particular case?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm talking about this specific

 1    case.

 2            JUDGE BONOMY:  That clarifies it.  Thank you very much.

 3            Mr. Cepic.

 4            MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I apologise for a little bit

 5    wrong explanation and clarification of this material.

 6            Could we have 5D1313, please.

 7       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mladenovic, what is this document, the one

 8    that we're looking at?

 9       A.   It is precisely what I was talking about.  A forensic examination

10    was carried out on the bodies of those people who had been killed, and

11    minutes were drawn up or a report was drawn up.

12            MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ...

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mladenovic, this is page 2, we see the date,

14    we see the time, we see the name of Major Ivica Milosavljevic,

15    Milos Kostov, and all the other ones.  Okay now, if you can please explain

16    about this person Zoran Saveljic.  Who was he?

17       A.   This was a judge of the military court attached to the Pristina

18    Corps command, and he ordered for this explanation to go ahead.

19       Q.   Thank you.  In addition to this location, was there another

20    location that was found nearby?

21       A.   Yes, I remember a place that I think was called Slovinje.

22       Q.   Thank you.

23            MR. CEPIC:  Could we have 5D1315.  Could we have the second page

24    of this document.

25       Q.   [Interpretation] Did you ever receive this letter, Mr. Mladenovic?

 1       A.   Yes, I received it in my Pristina office, and there were

 2    photographs attached to it.

 3            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the sake of

 4    expedience, there is an attachment to this document containing the

 5    photographs and the technical details.

 6            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 7            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, the final question:  Are you aware whether any of

 9    the perpetrators of this crime were eventually found?

10       A.   It wasn't until later when I worked with -- at the Nis military

11    court that I found out through the media that a prosecutor was pressing

12    charges against some local Serbs from that village.

13            MR. CEPIC:  [Previous translation continues] ...  5D1366, please.

14    We miss one word on page 118, line 25 -- actually, the next line, 119,

15    line 1, UN mission, UNMIK prosecutor.

16            JUDGE BONOMY:  Instead of media -- sorry, from the media that an

17    UNMIK prosecutor was pressing charges.  Thank you.

18            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   As far as charges being pressed against, what did you hear at the

20    time?

21       A.   Some local Serbs.

22       Q.   Mr. Mladenovic, what about this document that's in front of you,

23    does it not appear to confirm what you heard?  I showed it to you during

24    proofing.

25       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

 1       Q.   I don't know whether you were involved in their work, but during

 2    the proofing?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            JUDGE BONOMY:  What's the exhibit number for that document?

 6            MR. CEPIC:  5D1366.

 7            JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 8            MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be a good

 9    time.  I see that my learned friends are getting a little restless.

10            JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Mladenovic, we have to terminate our

11    proceedings for today at this stage, which means that you will have to

12    come back tomorrow to complete your evidence.  That will be at 2.15

13    tomorrow in courtroom number 3.  So please be back in time ready to resume

14    your evidence at that stage.  You can now leave the courtroom with the

15    usher.

16                          [The witness stands down]

17            JUDGE BONOMY:  Until tomorrow at 2.15.

18                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.33 p.m.,

19                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of

20                          January, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.