Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23001

1 Friday, 22 February 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, everyone.

6 Before we start, I'd asked the witness be kept out for a moment.

7 The reason for that is something we didn't reach yesterday but I intended

8 to deal with when we reached it or if we reached it. There is a rule here

9 which is in terms that possibly are not familiar to most domestic

10 jurisdictions, and that's Rule 90(E), that: A witness may object to

11 making any statement which might tend to incriminate him but the Chamber

12 may compel the him to answer, but any answer in these circumstances can't

13 be used against him in subsequent prosecution.

14 Now, Mr. Hannis, is there going to come a point in this

15 examination when it's put to the witness that he committed a crime?

16 MR. HANNIS: Absolutely.


18 Mr. Ivetic, it's unlikely he's aware of this rule unless there was

19 some discussion in proofing.

20 MR. IVETIC: There was not to my knowledge.


22 Now, do you consider that when the stage comes where any answers

23 could incriminate him that he should be given a warning about his right?

24 MR. IVETIC: Well, I think every witness is entitled to have

25 knowledge of their rights, so I would think yes. Based upon the knowledge

Page 23002

1 I have, I don't think he can incriminate himself on anything, but

2 definitely he can be given the notice of his rights.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: The danger is that if he's not, an answer might be

4 compelled in a way that doesn't comport with the rule, and that might

5 deprive him of protection. On the other hand, this sort of situation can

6 prejudice the way in which evidence is given in your favour; that's my

7 concern. But I think you're thinking along the same lines as the Trial

8 Chamber. When the stage arises, if you do want to make any other comment,

9 then you should make it at that stage.

10 Mr. Hannis, do you want to comment on this?

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I was looking at that rule and wondering

12 when and how it should be raised. You know, in my domestic jurisdiction

13 in similar situations oftentimes we even go to the extent of appointing a

14 separate counsel for the witness to advise him about whether or not he can

15 or should answer and the consequences of doing so and not doing so when

16 and if ordered by the Court, et cetera. I don't want to delay the

17 proceedings, but I just mention that for Your Honours' consideration.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: We will deal with the matter from here, but do you

19 agree that the appropriate course is to advise him of his position one way

20 or another?

21 MR. HANNIS: Yes, that's what I would want if I were sitting in

22 the witness chair.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay. Well, if you can indicate when you come to

24 that stage, we'll deal with it.

25 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour.

Page 23003

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, is your next witness here at the

3 moment?

4 MR. IVETIC: No, he's scheduled to be here at 10.00.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Hannis, we'll continue with the

6 cross-examination to the point that this issue is going to arise. The

7 view is to follow the course that you suggest, and that is have him

8 advised independently of his position. If that turns out to be something

9 that's going to take time, then we'll proceed with the next witness and

10 revert to the cross-examination at a later stage in the day. And we'll

11 now set in train efforts to arrange for that to be done.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have the witness back --

14 MR. HANNIS: Before he comes in, Your Honour, if I may. One, I

15 apologise for not having the foresight last night to have brought this to

16 your attention; but secondly, there's a --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one moment --

18 MR. HANNIS: There's a photograph that my intern who's assisting

19 me discovered last night that I had not put on the notification regarding

20 this witness. I believe it's a photograph of him and four of his

21 companions. I propose if I'm given permission to do so to show it to him,

22 just to ask him if that's him, if that's his colleagues, if he knows when

23 and where it was taken and by whom it was taken. I've advised Mr. Ivetic

24 of that a few minutes before we started, and I'm in your hands.

25 And it has been put into e-court -- I'm sorry. It has been put

Page 23004

1 into e-court, it has the Exhibit P3094, if Mr. Ivetic wants to have a look

2 at the photograph before he makes any objection.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, do you have a comment on the

4 photograph?

5 MR. IVETIC: Once I get my computer up and running. It's been

6 down since this morning, so I did get a brief look at it on my colleague's

7 computer. I have not seen the photograph before. It's not one that's

8 been disclosed to us ever previously. So I am a little disturbed by the

9 fact that the Prosecution did have it in their possession and never

10 disclosed it.

11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I should indicate my records indicate it

12 was disclosed to the Defence as part of the package with a potential

13 witness Ivan Balan. He did not testify but we've already used some

14 photographs of Mr. Balan with colonel -- or General Delic when he was here

15 to testify including Exhibit P3039, which was identified by Colonel Delic

16 as containing a picture of Colonel Mitrovic from the PJP and P3045, which

17 was a picture of Ivan Balan, another Russian volunteer, and General

18 Delic. This photograph was part of the package that was included with

19 Mr. Balan's statement which was disclosed I think in November last year,

20 28th of November. But it was only through the work of my intern who's

21 helping me today, Mr. Stuart O'Brien on my far right, that I became aware

22 of it last night.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Have you seen this photograph yet, Mr. Ivetic?

24 MR. IVETIC: I just saw it briefly before my colleague started

25 working on it. My computer's just now -- there we go. It's not a -- it

Page 23005

1 might have been disclosed then. I was not the one preparing for General

2 Delic, so -- but again, we asked for -- back in January, I believe,

3 January the 15th of this year, we asked for any and all statements or

4 other documents that they had in their possession that they believed

5 related directly to any of our witnesses that are listed on the list and

6 we received no response.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may. I believe I

8 have before me the disclosure where the Prosecutor is -- which the

9 Prosecutor is mentioning, but I don't believe this picture is there.

10 Three, six -- there are seven photographs disclosed. None of them is the

11 one. I may be mistaken, but as far as I can see, this is it.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 JUDGE BONOMY: What's your response to that, Mr. Hannis?

14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, Mr. Reid is checking. I don't have any

15 additional information at this point. Perhaps I could just --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: How much cross do you have without touching on

17 either that or --

18 MR. HANNIS: I think I have enough to get to 10.00 without

19 touching on either of those.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think then we should start on that aspect of the

21 cross-examination, ensure that the next witness is available if it turns

22 out to be appropriate to interpose that witness, depending on what other

23 arrangements we can make. We will try to avoid doing that.

24 MR. IVETIC: We are trying to contact VWS and --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Just to make sure that the arrangement that is made

Page 23006

1 is going to be adhered to and there's no anticipation that perhaps this

2 witness would take longer than until 10.00.

3 And can we now have the witness, please.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Good morning, Mr. Milenkovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis will continue in a

8 moment. Please bear in mind that the solemn declaration to speak the

9 truth that you gave yesterday at the beginning of your evidence continues

10 to apply to that evidence today.

11 Mr. Hannis.

12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

16 Q. Mr. Milenkovic, you told us about when on the 18th of July a part

17 of your company was tasked with liberating the town of Orahovac, and you

18 described how you arrived on trucks. When you got to the settlement of

19 Zrze you were informed by members of other units that Orahovac was under

20 control of the terrorists. Who was your company commander at this time?

21 A. The company commander at that time was Mr. Nenad Stojkovic.

22 Q. And do you recall now who were these members of other units or

23 what units were these people from that told you Orahovac was under control

24 of the terrorists?

25 A. Those were the other members of my detachment, the Nis company,

Page 23007

1 the Krusevac company, Pirot company, Vranje company, Prokuplje company of

2 the PJP as well as part of the unit from Prizren.

3 Q. Okay. So other members of the 37th Detachment plus some from the

4 Prizren PJP, correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You went on to say at what was then page 60, line 12, that: "When

7 we reached the entry point into town we heard intense firing taking place

8 in the down-town area as well as in the area populated exclusively by

9 Serbs."

10 Had you ever been to Orahovac before this date, on the 18th of

11 July?

12 A. Yes, with the regular shift providing assistance to the

13 secretariat in Orahovac.

14 Q. And when had that been?

15 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I don't remember the date.

16 Q. Was it a few days, a few weeks, a few months before this?

17 A. I believe it was a few months before.

18 Q. You told us that: "At the very entry point into Orahovac I

19 noticed several tanks of the army which were not active at that point in

20 time." How many is several?

21 A. As far as I can remember, three or four tanks were standing at the

22 entry point to Orahovac before the connecting trenches that had already

23 been there. They were made by the KLA.

24 Q. You said they weren't active at that time when you came to the

25 entry point, but were they active later during the action in Orahovac on

Page 23008

1 and after 18 July 1998?

2 A. I as member of the reconnaissance squad with my comrades set out

3 towards the centre of town, to recon the situation and the centre is a

4 kilometre, maybe a kilometre and a half away from the entry into

5 Orahovac. So I wasn't able to hear any fire from the tanks, if any.

6 Q. And how long did it take before Orahovac was retaken or liberated

7 by you and your comrades?

8 A. I cannot tell you exactly how many hours it lasted, but certainly

9 until late afternoon. It was already dark in any case when the unit came

10 to Vran Stena, it was already night.

11 Q. Did you see any VJ personnel or units in and around Orahovac

12 during that action other than the tanks you told us about?

13 A. In the centre of town itself, I didn't notice any army.

14 Q. Okay. Did you notice any anywhere else in or around Orahovac on

15 July 18th?

16 A. No. I saw the army only later when Orahovac was liberated from

17 Siptar terrorists.

18 Q. What did you do in 1998 in Kosovo after this Orahovac action in

19 July? Were you in Kosovo that whole time?

20 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question, especially the last

21 part. Could you clarify?

22 Q. After 18 July 1998, were you in Kosovo the rest of the year during

23 1998?

24 A. Yes, doing stints.

25 Q. And when you say "doing stints," what do you mean? Does that

Page 23009

1 include anti-terrorist actions?

2 A. When I said I was doing stints, that means we were working in

3 shifts. One shift lasted 30 to 40 days, I'm not able to tell you exactly

4 now. After a completed shift a unit would go back home or work in their

5 normal secretariat where they were employed.

6 Q. Okay. And how much time did you have back home or doing normal

7 work between shifts?

8 A. The same amount of time that we spent in the parts of Kosovo where

9 we did our stints, that's a month or 40 days perhaps.

10 Q. So if I understand correctly, you would do a stint or a shift of

11 30 to 40 days, and then you would have 30 or 40 days off to go home or

12 doing normal work, right?

13 A. Quite so.

14 Q. So during those 30- to 40-day shifts that you did in Kosovo during

15 the remainder of 1998, you were involved in anti-terrorist actions, were

16 you not?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Do you know where the Bajgora area is in Kosovo?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Well, in your answer at page 63, line 22, you said: "I claim with

21 full responsibility that I did not take part in any actions in Bajgora."

22 Now, from your earlier answer I take it that you did engage in

23 anti-terrorist operations or actions in Kosovo during shifts in 1998 after

24 July. So how can you say you didn't engage in an action in Bajgora when

25 you don't know where it is?

Page 23010

1 A. Each of our activities in a certain area of Kosovo was accompanied

2 by a briefing, we were pointed out the area where we were supposed to go.

3 So I can say that I have never been to Bajgora and I was never involved in

4 any anti-terrorist operations in that area.

5 Q. Did you ever go to an area called Stari Trg where there's a large

6 mine?

7 A. No. At the time -- strike that, at the time. I was never at

8 Stari Trg.

9 Q. You know where it is?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: My understanding of that answer is the witness

12 wanted to delete the words "at the time" and that he simply said "I was

13 never at Stari Trg."

14 MR. HANNIS: That's what I understand. Thank you.

15 Q. What kind of -- well, let me ask you this. In one of your answers

16 at page 64, line 6, you said: "I claim with full responsibility that we

17 were explicitly ordered under penalty to strictly abide by the Geneva

18 Conventions as well as other legislation that pertains to wartime."

19 Who explicitly ordered you to strictly abide by the Geneva

20 Conventions?

21 A. At the beginning of each action, we had an improvised meeting

22 wherever we found ourselves, be it in the woods or in a population

23 centre. And the platoon commander or the company commander, through their

24 commanding officers, held brief meetings where he warned them of possible

25 consequences, if any, of the company members should do anything that is

Page 23011

1 contrary to the Geneva Convention on warfare or other legislation that

2 were communicated to us loud and clear verbally. I learned of all these

3 orders from the squad Commander Zoran Markovic, because I was not always

4 able to attend those short meetings that the company commander held with

5 squad -- sorry, with platoon commanders.

6 Q. Well, did you attend some of those meetings where the company

7 commander - and I understand that's Nenad Stojkovic - purportedly gave

8 these instructions? Did you attend any where he said that?

9 A. Yes, I attended a couple of meetings with him where he told us

10 this explicitly. Generally speaking, he was a very strict man, especially

11 with regard to this law that we were to abide by, the convention on

12 warfare, and he strictly ordered us to take care of the civilian

13 population. And in the course of our actions there arose some situations

14 where Siptar terrorists, after realizing --

15 Q. Let me stop you. You've answered my question. Are you aware -

16 and please don't mention any names here - but in preparing for your

17 testimony or otherwise, did you ever become aware that at least two of

18 your colleagues in the 37th PJP have made allegations that Nenad Stojkovic

19 killed Albanian civilians in 1998 and/or 1999? Did you know about that?

20 First of all, did you know that those claims had been made?

21 A. No, I claim with full responsibility that I did not hear of these

22 stories.

23 Q. Okay. And Zoran Markovic, was he the commander of your squad?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I understand he's dead now; is that correct?

Page 23012

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know where he is if he's still alive?

3 A. He lives in Leskovac. I don't know the exact address of his

4 residence.

5 Q. Is he still active in the police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you aware whether he had a brother who was in the military

8 police during the war?

9 A. I know that he has two brothers. Now, whether one of them was in

10 the military police is something that I don't know.

11 Q. Okay. After the war, isn't it correct that Nenad Stojkovic became

12 chief of the SUP in Leskovac for a while?

13 A. Nenad Stojkovic became chief of the branch police station, not of

14 the SUP of Leskovac. Later on he was appointed chief of the secretariat.

15 Q. Okay. And then I think in approximately November 2006 was he not

16 removed or did he step down from that position?

17 A. I don't know if he was removed, but I do know that he handed over

18 his duty of chief of secretariat to Mr. Sakic. So he was not chief of the

19 secretariat. I really cannot say to you now whether he was removed or

20 not.

21 Q. And do you know whether or not he's under investigation for

22 alleged war crimes in Kosovo in 1999?

23 A. In addition to us making statements in Belgrade to the deputy

24 prosecutor for war crimes - and we were there together at this

25 interrogation for -- well, I don't know about any other trials against

Page 23013

1 him.

2 Q. You told us about your conversation with the prosecutor and we'll

3 come to that later on, but I did want to ask you: The prosecutor has not

4 told you that there will not be any charges filed against you, has he?

5 A. The prosecutor did not say that he would initiate proceedings

6 against me. I was called for an interview. I gave a written statement,

7 and I have a copy of this statement at my home in Vlasotince, and that's

8 the only thing I got from them.

9 Q. Okay. I think you answered the other side of my question. You

10 said in your answer just now that the prosecutor did not say he would

11 initiate proceedings, but neither did he tell you that he would not

12 initiate proceedings, right?

13 A. Absolutely nothing was said to me. I wasn't told that proceedings

14 would be initiated or that they would not be initiated or that they would

15 be initiated.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. You were asked some questions about code words

17 on the radio. You personally weren't using the radio for communications

18 during your anti-terrorist actions, were you? That was your platoon or

19 your squad commander and higher-ups who were actually talking on the

20 radio, right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And much of the time, as I understand it, you in the

23 reconnaissance squad were separate and out front of the main portion of

24 the 4th Company. Isn't that the nature of what your role was?

25 A. Yes. That is tactical conduct on the part of our squad; however,

Page 23014

1 we were not so far away that we could not have visual contact with the

2 other members of the company, especially with the commander of the

3 company. That is to say that we were about 50 metres away, or rather, we

4 were at a place where we were safe. So we had visual contact with the

5 other members of my company.

6 Q. Okay. You described that there were several or frequently you had

7 situations where the Siptar terrorists, when they realized that they were

8 losing a fight with you, would desert their positions, discard their

9 weapons and parts of uniforms, and then intermingle with columns of

10 civilians and that you were instructed by your superiors not to open fire

11 on such columns of refugees. Did you not try to stop these columns and

12 sort out the military-aged men from the women, children, and old people?

13 Did you never do that?

14 A. Could we, although we realized that they were mixed with the

15 civilian population, actually open fire. If we were to shoot at them,

16 there would have been thousands of dead people. There were quite a few

17 situations when we ourselves saw them joining columns; however, due to

18 security considerations and due to the safety of others, too, the safety

19 of other members, or rather, the other people on the column who would have

20 been jeopardized by our activity, we did not take such measures. We found

21 their weapons, we would take it away and hand them over to certain

22 structures that later handed them over to secretariats.

23 Q. Well, I'm not sure that's a complete answer to my question. I

24 understand that you didn't fire on them, but did you not try and stop the

25 people and separate the women, children, and elderly so that the

Page 23015

1 military-aged men could be detained and questioned and whatever else was

2 appropriate? You never did that, did you?

3 A. I claim with full responsibility that we didn't do that precisely

4 because this was a small number of people who had thrown away their

5 weapons and uniforms and they were mixed with civilians, and sometimes

6 there would be 20 or 30.000 civilian persons. How would we find these

7 10-odd people who were within these masses of thousands of people? How

8 could we do that? We didn't even try.

9 Q. Was that true in 1999 as well?

10 A. Absolutely true.

11 Q. And can you tell me how many times in 1999 you ran into this

12 situation where 10 or so KLA hid themselves in a mass of 20 to 30.000

13 civilians? How many times did that happen?

14 A. Well, I cannot tell you for sure how many times it happened, but I

15 do remember that it happened once or twice.

16 Q. You mentioned seizing some of these abandoned weapons. Did you

17 personally take or keep any of those weapons as a souvenir, for example?

18 A. No. I had an automatic rifle of theirs that I personally handed

19 over to the command of my company. Later on it was probably handed over

20 to the Prizren SUP.

21 Q. All right. Moving to another topic, you mentioned the 2nd

22 Armoured Mechanised Squad. What did that consist of? How many people

23 were in that and what kind of equipment was in that squad?

24 A. The 2nd Armoured Mechanised Squad was an integral part of the 5th

25 Platoon, and it consisted of one combat vehicle, a TAM-110, that was

Page 23016

1 armoured. It had metal sheeting and bars. Part of it was covered with

2 rubber bands that were probably obtained at the nearby mines. In addition

3 to this truck that we possessed, we had two mortars on this truck and the

4 calibre was 60-millimetres and 82-millimetres respectively. These weapons

5 had been issued to the members of that squad who had been trained to use

6 these weapons.

7 Q. And there was only one such TAM-110? You didn't have any others

8 that were mounted with a machine-gun?

9 A. No. We just had this 110.

10 Q. Okay. And you said this was part of the 5th Platoon, and the 5th

11 Platoon was part of what, part of the 4th Company?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: There's a translation oddity there, that part of it

14 was covered with rubber bands, which were probably obtained at nearby

15 mines. What was you said about these, Mr. Milenkovic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say that part of the

17 truck was covered with these pieces of rubber because they were very

18 convenient for repelling shells or mines if any were thrown at the truck

19 in order to destroy them. By virtue of that fact, these rubber bands

20 protected the vehicle.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.


23 Q. You mentioned your company had some activities in the village of

24 Ljubizda, close to Prizren. That was in April of 1999, wasn't it?

25 A. That's right.

Page 23017

1 Q. And I think you told us that -- yes, at page 70 from yesterday

2 that you had received information there was a strong terrorist group

3 stronghold in that village, but after you got out -- got out there and in

4 that village you discovered otherwise and that's where you met up with

5 Colonel Tomislav Mitic. Can you tell me who was he? Was he a member of

6 the VJ or the MUP or the military district? What organization did he

7 belong to?

8 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I know Mr. Mitic. I told you when I

9 met him personally. I had only heard of Mitic in the previous period of

10 time when I was in my town of Vlasotince, but I heard that he was one of

11 the commanders of the military department that had been relocated from

12 Prizren to that village. And of course he was in military uniform.

13 Q. And what kind of uniform, was it a camouflage or what?

14 A. Well, as far as I can remember, I think it was a green camouflage

15 uniform.

16 Q. Okay. And you -- your evidence is that your company was only in

17 that village for about six hours; is that right?

18 A. Absolutely right.

19 Q. You said at page 72 that the population of this village was mixed,

20 it was Serbian, Montenegrin, and Albanian, and then you said: "But I saw

21 myself when we entered the village, people were disturbed or got agitated

22 in a way. Most probably from what I heard from them, they were afraid of

23 the bombing of NATO aeroplanes and because of the activities of a large

24 group of Siptar terrorists who were in the immediate vicinity and they

25 were leaving their houses and going in a column."

Page 23018

1 Do you recall approximately when this was? I think my first

2 question I suggested it was April 1999. Do you remember the approximate

3 date that you were there and met Mr. Mitic?

4 A. No, I cannot tell you exactly what date it was.

5 Q. This column of people you saw leaving their houses, NATO bombing

6 had been going on for at least a couple weeks by now, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there anything particular about that that would have caused

9 them to form a column and leave on this day when you were there?

10 A. According to the information that I received then from my

11 colleagues, I think that they were fleeing only for two reasons. The

12 first reason why they were leaving the village was fear from bombing by

13 NATO aircraft, since shells were falling in the immediate vicinity of

14 their village; and the barracks of the army at that time was at the very

15 entrance into Prizren. Ljubizda is a few kilometres away from Prizren.

16 The second example in terms of the reasons that I heard of why they were

17 leaving the village was that they were afraid of fighting between the

18 forces of the Siptar terrorists that were fortified, well-equipped,

19 well-armed between the villages of Ljubizda and Korisa, and they were

20 afraid of fighting.

21 We were trying to persuade them that everything would be fine,

22 that they should stay at their homes; however, I think that we were not

23 successful in that effort and they continued towards the main road and

24 joined the rest of the column that was on its way from Suva Reka.

25 Q. Which of the three ethnic groups you described were in this

Page 23019

1 column? Was it Serbs, Montenegrins, Albanians, some combination or all

2 three?

3 A. I cannot be sure whether it was only Albanians, but I think it was

4 mostly Albanians. It is possible that there were some people of other

5 ethnic backgrounds among them, too, perhaps some Serbs, Montenegrins.

6 Q. You -- are you aware, sir, that, again without mentioning names,

7 that there were two colleagues from the PJP who said that they were given

8 orders to go around Ljubizda and tell the civilians to leave and tell them

9 to go - I'm talking about Kosovo Albanians - and tell them to go to

10 Albania? You're not aware of that?

11 A. I was not aware of that. Had there been such an order, the

12 company commander would have only ordered the guys from the reconnaissance

13 squad to do that, but truly there was no such order nor was I aware of any

14 colleague being on that kind of mission.

15 Q. Well, how is it or why do you say the company commander would have

16 only ordered the reconnaissance squad to do that? Is that a special kind

17 of work that you did and others in the PJP couldn't do?

18 A. No, that is not right. Every member of the other platoons and

19 squads had separate special assignments. So he could not call a member of

20 the 3rd Squad of the 3rd Platoon who perhaps had a completely different

21 kind of assignment and have that kind of person carry out such orders for

22 him. But I claim to you with full responsibility that there were no such

23 orders and no -- none of us did that, and I guarantee that there was no

24 need for anything like that to be done.

25 Q. Well, as the reconnaissance squad, weren't you sent on ahead from

Page 23020

1 Ljubizda toward Korisa?

2 A. Yes, we did go there, but I pointed out in my previous answers to

3 these questions that we were about 50 metres away, approximately, where we

4 had constant visual contact with the other members of the company

5 precisely for reasons of safety and security.

6 Q. And how many members were there in the entire company?

7 A. I cannot give you the exact number, but the company consisted of

8 five platoons. Some platoon would have 25 members, another one 26

9 members, but generally it was between 25 and 30 men. The company was

10 approximately 135 to 145 members strong.

11 Q. And don't you allow for the possibility that the company commander

12 could have directed some of those 135 to 145 men to remove people from the

13 village of Ljubizda while you and the rest went on ahead toward Korisa?

14 That's possible, isn't it?

15 A. That is not possible, knowing my company commander so very well, I

16 believe that he never could have issued such an order independently or was

17 there any need to issue orders like that.

18 Q. You know him so very well that you don't know about the alleged

19 murders of civilians that at least two other members of your detachment

20 have accused him of?

21 A. As for that, I also state to you with full responsibility that

22 even if something like that had happened, I did not take part in all

23 actions and I cannot say with full certainty that perhaps something like

24 that did not happen, but I'm convinced that things like that were not

25 possible, especially in the case of a man who is an academic person,

Page 23021

1 young, married, has a family, who's a wonderful man, a wonderful human

2 being, and a wonderful leader to the extent to which I know him as my

3 leader.

4 Q. What about Colonel Mitrovic, did you ever meet him?

5 A. Colonel Mitrovic I know, well, for the most part by his voice that

6 I heard over the radio when I was close to the commander of the company.

7 I saw him a few times out in the field, but I personally do not know him.

8 Q. So you can't vouch for his character the same way you can for

9 Nenad Stojkovic, right?

10 A. That is absolutely right.

11 Q. How about -- did you know a Srdjan Nikolic?

12 A. I did not know Dr. Srdjan Nikolic.

13 Q. Did you know somebody named Srdjan Nikolic in your 37th

14 Detachment? Maybe I'm not pronouncing the first name correctly.

15 A. Yes, I know Srdjan Nikolic, who was an ordinary member of the

16 company. I don't know which platoon in particular.

17 Q. Are you aware of any allegations by other members of the 37th

18 Detachment against him for killing civilians in 1999?

19 A. I cannot give you an answer to that question because I do not

20 know.

21 Q. How about do you know an individual named Nenad Ilic in the 37th?

22 A. Of course I do. I know the man personally. He was my squad

23 commander of the police while I was helping out in Grdelica, he was

24 commander of that squad.

25 Q. And in 1999 he was a member of the 37th Detachment in Kosovo,

Page 23022

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know an individual in the 37th Detachment who was known by

4 the nickname Honda?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know his full name?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you tell it, please.

9 A. I would, his name is Zoran Nikolic.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that perhaps the person you were asking about,

11 Mr. Hannis, or is that someone different, if you go back to line 19 of

12 page 21 or line 15.

13 MR. HANNIS: No, I think -- well, I can ask the witness, but I

14 think it's a different individual.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.


17 Q. That's not the same as Srdjan Nikolic, right? Zoran is a

18 different person than the one you mentioned earlier?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. HANNIS: Could we look at Exhibit P2627.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: This is under seal apparently.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't think it needs to be with this

24 witness.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. It must be the connection --

Page 23023

1 MR. HANNIS: I think that's -- yes.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: -- Riaz, and therefore the individual item I think

3 does not need to be under seal.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's just have it not exhibited outwith the

6 courtroom, Mr. Hannis, and avoid any complications.

7 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

8 Q. Mr. Milenkovic, can you see that photo on your screen?

9 A. Yes, yes, I can.

10 Q. Have you seen that before today?

11 A. Yes, that photo was shown to me in the district court, or rather,

12 in the department for war crimes in Belgrade. I had never seen it before

13 that.

14 Q. Is that one of the five photographs you say you were shown on that

15 occasion?

16 A. No. I think this was the sixth or seventh photograph I was shown

17 this.

18 Q. Okay. Can you tell us who the man is standing up leaning against

19 the tank in what appears to be a police uniform?

20 A. Your Honours, may we zoom in a little bit? I can't see very well

21 who this is.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I think so.

23 Does that help you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's so fuzzy that I can't

25 really tell. Could the contrast be sharpened a little bit? I have an

Page 23024

1 idea who it might be, but I can't be a hundred per cent certain.


3 Q. Let me ask the question this way. I think we have evidence from

4 another witness that that's Nenad Stojkovic. Would you disagree?

5 A. Well, I agree, but it's difficult to tell looking at this

6 photograph. It's very fuzzy. It does look as if it might be

7 Mr. Stojkovic, yes.

8 Q. And that's who you had in mind earlier when you said you thought

9 you might know who it was just now?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And the person sitting in the foreground on the right, do you

12 recognise him as somebody from the 37th Detachment?

13 A. Judging by the face, I would say he's a man from the 37th

14 Detachment, his name was Bojic and he was known as Bilder, but it's very

15 hard to say because his face is fuzzy too.

16 Q. Did you -- is it possible that this may be a man who had the

17 nickname Sajko, S-a-j-k-o?

18 A. No, no. This man's nickname was Bilder. He was a man who was

19 engaged in bodybuilding, his hobby was bodybuilding, and he had a very

20 well-developed body, that's why his nickname was Bilder.

21 Q. Did you know an individual named Bojan Zlatkovic, who was in the

22 37th?

23 A. Yes, I did know him.

24 Q. And are you saying that's not him sitting on the rock in the right

25 front foreground?

Page 23025

1 A. No, no. I'm certain it wasn't him. I said that this was a person

2 called Bojan Ilic, also known as Bilder.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't know if you wanted to do

5 something when we got to the 10.00 mark or if I should just keep going.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: You go as far as you can before we deal with the

7 two issues that are outstanding.

8 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Thank you.

9 Q. With regard to the tank, isn't it correct that certain VJ tanks

10 were assigned to the PJP during these anti-terrorist actions?

11 A. I can't speak about that and I don't know, but I don't think so.

12 I don't think a single tank was assigned to our unit.

13 Q. Do you know why other members of the 37th Detachment would have

14 told us that each company was assigned three tanks and -- well, one or two

15 tanks and two or three Pragas?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the question as phrased I think is

18 asking for him to speculate why other persons might have said something.

19 That sounds like speculation.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: I think the question can be put differently,

21 Mr. Hannis. Simply confront him with the evidence. You don't need to

22 know why others would be saying so.


24 Q. We've had evidence in this case --

25 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, it's transcript from the 2nd or

Page 23026

1 1st of February of 2007 at page 9614.

2 Q. -- that one or two tanks and two or three Pragas were assigned to

3 the PJP 4th Company. You didn't know about that? You weren't aware of

4 that in the reconnaissance squad?

5 A. I didn't know about that.

6 Q. How many men were in your reconnaissance squad?

7 A. To begin with, when the unit was established there were nine

8 members of the reconnaissance squad; of those nine lads, three were killed

9 in the village of Prilep near Djakovica and six remained. After that,

10 after I was transferred to the A unit, as I had a strong wish because it's

11 in my nature to be part of that squad, I was received gladly.

12 Q. And can you name us the other members of the reconnaissance squad

13 in 1999?

14 A. Are you referring to the part where I was there or previously?

15 Q. No, when you were there.

16 A. The squad leader was Mr. Zoran Markovic, and the other members

17 were Dejan Mihajlovic, Dejan Dimitrijevic, Bojan Ilic, Bojan Zlatkovic, I,

18 Dragan Milenkovic, and a person nicknamed Guta; his name was Srdjan but I

19 can't remember his last name. For a while there was also Dejan Djordjic.

20 Q. And where was the detachment headquarter located during 1999, if

21 you know?

22 A. I don't know that, but I assume that the detachment headquarters

23 moved depending on the situation on the ground. It was never located in a

24 single place.

25 Q. In the fall of 1998, were you present when parts of the 4th

Page 23027

1 Company and parts of the 37th Detachment were engaged in the area of Donje

2 and Gornje Obrinje?

3 A. I can't remember that. I don't think I was part of that unit at

4 that time. Because I've heard of the village of Gornje Obrinje, I heard

5 about it later, but I really don't know where it is or in what part of

6 Kosovo it is.

7 Q. When and how did you hear about it later, under what

8 circumstances?

9 A. I don't understand your question. Could you clarify, please?

10 Q. Well, in your answer you said: "I heard about the village of

11 Gornje Obrinje ... later." Can you tell us in what circumstances you

12 heard about it, when, where, how did it come up, what was said about it?

13 A. The only thing I can tell you about it is that I heard that this

14 village was a stronghold of the Siptar terrorists, that they were very

15 well armed and very well fortified, and I even heard that they had a

16 headquarters in that village or hamlet or whatever it was.

17 Q. And you never heard about an alleged massacre of civilians in

18 Donje Obrinje around the end of September 1998? There was international

19 media attention about this. Are you saying you never heard about it

20 before now?

21 A. No. I'm telling you now, I never heard about any massacre of

22 civilians.

23 Q. Anywhere, any time, or are you just talking about Obrinje right

24 now?

25 A. I'm talking about Obrinje right now because that was your

Page 23028

1 question.

2 Q. We have evidence in this case from a member of the 37th PJP that

3 between Donje and Gornje Obrinje elements of the 37th came across a group

4 of about 5 to 6.000 civilian Albanian -- Kosovo Albanian refugees and that

5 the reconnaissance section began to rob the refugees of their personal

6 belongings. Were you not present in the reconnaissance section that did

7 that on that occasion?

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I believe -- I'm trying to scroll up on

10 the transcript, but I believe he's already said that he was not in Gornje

11 Obrinje, so this question would therefore be without foundation.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

13 MR. HANNIS: This question regards the area between Donje and

14 Gornje Obrinje, on the road between Pristina and Pec, to be more precise.

15 I may not have mentioned that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer this question

17 because I really don't know anything about it.


19 Q. Well, does that mean you don't know whether you were there and

20 robbing people or not?

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, we haven't made a decision on this

22 yet. That question has been answered.

23 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And the witness has twice now said he knows nothing

25 about this, so let's move on to something else.

Page 23029


2 Q. Were you present in the fall of 1998 when the 4th Company was in

3 action and holding ground in the area of Lausa near Srbica?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you ever meet Frenki Simatovic or Milorad Lukovic, known as

6 Legija?

7 A. I never met them.

8 Q. Did you ever come across members of the special operations unit,

9 the JSO, in the field in Kosovo in either 1998 or 1999?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. When was that?

12 A. I think the first time was in 1998, in the Nora Motel near Pec. I

13 saw those lads and those men perhaps for only a few minutes. I recognised

14 them by their red berets, but I didn't meet or get to know their

15 commanders personally. The second time I didn't actually see them but I

16 heard that they had been in the village of Budakovo near Suva Reka in the

17 direction of Papaz, towards the mountains, and that's all I learned about

18 those men from the JSO.

19 Q. And you said that was the -- those were the only two times then

20 that you came across them?

21 A. I said that I came across them in the Nora Motel near Pec and that

22 in the village of Budakovo I only heard they were there but didn't see

23 them.

24 Q. And did you not hear about Dejan Mihajlovic killing two unarmed

25 Albanians in Glogovac?

Page 23030

1 A. No, no, I didn't hear about that. I wasn't in that unit at the

2 time when our company was in Glogovac.

3 Q. Were you in the unit on the 24th and 25th of March, 1999, right

4 after the NATO bombing started?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you aware or did you hear about Nenad Ilic and Ivan Popovic

7 killing two Albanian men in Dobrodeljane on the 24th or 25th of March?

8 A. I have to tell you that I know Nenad Ilic, but Ivan Popovic is a

9 name totally unfamiliar to me --

10 Q. Did you hear about either of them killing Albanian men on the

11 24th?

12 A. No, I did not hear about it, and I don't know Ivan Popovic. He

13 was not a member of our company.

14 Q. Did you hear about Srdjan Nikolic allegedly killing an 80-year-old

15 man in Pagarusa on or about the 25th of March, 1999?

16 A. I really can't answer this question because Srdjan Nikolic was a

17 member -- I can't tell you exactly whether of the 2nd or the 3rd Platoon,

18 and they had special tasks within the company. I already told you at the

19 outset where I was, who I belonged to, and where I was located. So I'm

20 not sure. Even if he did kill someone, I didn't hear about it.

21 Q. My earlier question I think I misspoke and I asked you about an

22 Ivan Popovic. Do you know a Dragan Popovic who was in the 37 Detachment?

23 A. Yes, yes, that's a different matter. Dragan Popovic was a member

24 of our unit, may God forgive his soul, he's deceased now.

25 Q. And you did not hear anything about him killing any Albanian

Page 23031

1 civilians on the 24th or 25th of March, 1999?

2 A. Are you referring to Dragan Popovic now?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No, no, I didn't hear about that.

5 Q. You were with the unit on or about the 20th of April, 1999, in the

6 Budakovo area, weren't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And parts of the 37th ran into strong resistance and needed help

9 from the JSO on that occasion, didn't they?

10 A. No, that's not correct. I don't know about that. I only know

11 that -- may I go on?

12 Q. And you're not aware that Nenad Stojkovic killed two young unarmed

13 Albanian men before that attack on Budakovo, around the 20th of April,

14 1999, you didn't know about that either?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And you said -- well, isn't it true that you and members of the

17 37th Detachment throughout the entire war from the 24th of March until

18 about the middle of June when you left never took a single prisoner, at

19 least not one you kept for more than a few hours. Isn't that right?

20 Don't look over there. Who are you looking at over there?

21 A. It was an accident. I was listening to the interpretation and I

22 just happened to look in that direction. I can say that it's not correct

23 we didn't have prisoners. I'll give you an example. On the 18th or when

24 Orahovac was liberated, when part of my unit went out to an area called

25 Vran Stena from where Siptar terrorists had been active and when the

Page 23032

1 terrorists withdrew from that place in the direction of Dragobilje and

2 Ostrozub, a part of the company remained behind to stand guard in case the

3 Albanian terrorists came back and struck at us again. I don't remember

4 what day it was. It may have been the 22nd or the 23rd. An Albanian

5 carrying a gun -- a rifle came across two guards standing sentry next to

6 an improvised dug-out we had made ourselves. This person was arrested and

7 we informed the company commander of the 87th Detachment of B formation,

8 Mr. Vladan Jovic. Probably Vladan Jovic contacted the commander of the

9 87th Detachment, the late Mr. Zoran Arandjelovic and he probably ordered

10 him that this person should be escorted to Orahovac and then on to

11 Prizren. This person who had been detained and disarmed on the spot, I

12 think he had a PAP rifle and several hand-grenades on him. He was

13 handcuffed and taken on foot to the SUP. I think it was the Orahovac SUP.

14 And later on he was handed over to the competent judicial authorities in

15 Prizren. The persons who escorted this person, I can tell you --

16 Q. Let me stop you there because I think you're talking about July

17 1998 and my question was from the 24th of March, 1999, to the 12th or the

18 middle of June, 1999. So do you have an example of any prisoners taken by

19 the 37th during that time-period?

20 A. I really don't know whether we came across such persons and

21 whether we had prisoners or not. I don't think we did.

22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, now I'm coming to the point where I need

23 to talk about the matters that probably touch on what we raised at the

24 beginning of the session.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 23033

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milenkovic, this is a rather complicated

2 procedural situation we are in. We have a rule in our system which

3 requires that you have a discussion with a lawyer, if you wish to have

4 that discussion, and we would be failing in our duty under the rules if we

5 did not allow this opportunity. I can't explain any more to you than that

6 at the moment. It's just one of our administrative legal procedures.

7 So what we're going to do is make arrangements for a lawyer who's

8 completely independent of this case to meet with you and have a brief

9 discussion to explain the position. The trouble for us is that we can't

10 make that arrangement until 1.00 at the earliest. So what we're going to

11 have to do is interrupt your evidence at this stage, give you that

12 opportunity to be advised fully of the rule that we have and how the Court

13 should deal with it, and then resume your evidence, and hopefully that

14 would be later today so that the evidence will be completed at some stage

15 in the course of today.

16 So I have to ask you now to leave the courtroom and you'll be

17 shown where you can pass the time until 1.00 -- if the arrangement can be

18 made more quickly, it will be made more quickly, because we're anxious to

19 resume and hear the rest of your account of matters as soon as possible so

20 that we can hear as much as possible of your evidence together. So we're

21 aiming at completing today as soon as possible.

22 Could you now please leave the courtroom with the usher. We'll

23 see you later in the day.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 23034

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Visnjic.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for the record,

3 because I said at the beginning regarding the photograph the Prosecutor

4 has shown, I checked and it was indeed published on the 28th of November,

5 2007, in a set of 34 photographs. It had a different ERN number. I have

6 already informed the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So it was effectively disclosed but not intimated

8 for the purpose of this cross-examination.

9 Now, Mr. Ivetic, have you anything further to say on that?

10 MR. IVETIC: I've already said everything I have on that point.

11 We did also advise once we found out that there was another disclosure

12 package, not the one that has been cited by the Prosecution, a different

13 one with the same date relating to Mr. Delic.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but the real issue for you is that the

15 Prosecution should have been alert to this and notified you?

16 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

17 [Trial Chamber confers].

18 JUDGE BONOMY: In similar situations we have tended to allow the

19 use of this sort of material. It's not a document that requires digestion

20 or any particular length of time to consider. On the other hand, if

21 allowing this to become a part of the cross-examination exercise with this

22 witness causes any prejudice or difficulty for you, Mr. Ivetic, then

23 obviously we would consider an application for relief. But we will allow

24 the Prosecution as so advised to use the photograph in cross-examination.

25 The wise thing I think might be to have the break now and to

Page 23035

1 resume with your witness, is that Mr. Lukic's witness, the next one, and

2 he is available and ready to start?

3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 So we will resume at ten past 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

8 [The Accused Milutinovic not present]

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, your next witness.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Our next witness is

11 Mr. Radovan Vucurevic.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vucurevic, good morning.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

17 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

18 you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Lukic.

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 23036


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vucurevic.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. For your information, lest you spend too much time thinking about

7 it, I put the documentation in order. You know that there had been some

8 errors. Would you please introduce yourself for the record and tell us

9 about your career and your occupation.

10 A. My name is Radovan Vucurevic. I was born on the 18th of March,

11 1961. I got a law degree in Novi Sad in 1983. In 1985 I found employment

12 with the Ministry of the Interior SUP Novi Sad, the department for foreign

13 nationals. From 1991 until 1992 I was employed with the state security

14 sector. In 1992 I was assigned to the position of chief of department for

15 foreign nationals. From end March 1998 until end March 1999 I worked in

16 Pristina at the MUP staff of the Republic of Serbia. From 2005 I was

17 assigned to become chief of the department for administrative affairs.

18 I'm married, I have three children, and I live in Novi Sad.

19 Q. Thank you. Just one clarification, please. You said you were

20 assigned to the position of chief of the department for foreign

21 nationals. At which level?

22 A. At the level of the secretariat of internal affairs, SUP Novi Sad.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court 6D1048.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Your current position as chief of the department

25 for administrative affairs, is that in Novi Sad?

Page 23037

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also in the SUP of Novi Sad.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just repeat the number?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. 6D1048. Would you please tell us what kind of document is this.

6 A. This is a decision to send me to Kosovo and Metohija.

7 Q. Issued by whom?

8 A. The state security sector [as interpreted], Ministry of the

9 Interior of the Republic of Serbia.

10 Q. When?

11 A. On the 9th of March, 1998.

12 Q. What is written in the first paragraph after the

13 heading "decision"?

14 A. Radovan Vucurevic, employee of the Ministry of the Interior, the

15 secretariat of the interior, in Novi Sad.

16 Q. So according to this decision whose employee do you continue to be

17 even after being sent to Kosovo and Metohija?

18 A. The SUP of Novi Sad.

19 Q. According to this decision, were you sent or assigned and what is

20 the difference?

21 A. I was sent to the staff of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, the

22 difference being that the MUP staff of the Republic of Serbia is not an

23 organizational unit of the Ministry of the Interior. If it were an

24 organizational unit, I would be assigned to a specific vacancy that would

25 be in the system and it would have a number.

Page 23038

1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm sorry to intervene. Maybe my

2 B/C/S-speaking friends across the way can help, but at line 18 of page 37

3 the answer was: "The state security sector," and shouldn't that be public

4 security?

5 MR. LUKIC: For one year he spent in state security sector as

6 well.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: The question, Mr. Lukic, relates to the source of

8 this order or decision, rather, and the question was that -- who issued

9 it. So perhaps you should clarify that.

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes, my colleague is right. It should be public

11 security sector.

12 MR. HANNIS: Can we confirm that with the witness because I don't

13 know if it was a translation issue or --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Let's have that clarified by asking the witness

15 again, please, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vucurevic, would you look at the decision

18 again and tell us who issued it?

19 A. The public security sector.

20 Q. From paragraph 3 which deals with the remuneration you are

21 supposed to receive, can we see whose employee you are?

22 A. Yes. In paragraph 3 as well it is written that I will have the

23 same salary I had in SUP Novi Sad, increased by 50 per cent, which means

24 that I keep the salary I had in my work position.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 6D1049.

Page 23039

1 Q. What kind of document is this, Mr. Vucurevic?

2 A. It's decision discontinuing my engagement in Kosovo and Metohija.

3 Q. Issued by whom?

4 A. The Ministry of the Interior, the public security sector.

5 Q. When?

6 A. The 1st April 1999.

7 Q. In the first paragraph what can we read?

8 A. "Major Radovan Vucurevic, employee of the Ministry of the Interior

9 secretariat in Novi Sad shall, with effect from the 1st of April, 1999,

10 cease to perform the duties and tasks of assistant head of the Ministry of

11 the Interior staff for the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija

12 based in Pristina to which he was assigned on the 1st of April, 1998."

13 Q. When was your work in Kosovo and Metohija discontinued?

14 A. The 29th of March, 1999.

15 Q. That is a few days before then -- before the date indicated in

16 this decision?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. What is stated as the reason in this decision?

19 A. In the statement of reasons in the second paragraph it says that I

20 had performed the duties and tasks for which I was sent there on the 29th

21 of March, 1999, I was injured during the air-strikes on the building of

22 the Pristina SUP, and that's the reason why I went back.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call Exhibit 6D262.

25 Q. You have the document before you?

Page 23040

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who sent it?

3 A. This document was sent by the Ministry of the Interior.

4 Q. When?

5 A. 18 June 1998.

6 Q. What were all these recipients informed of?

7 A. The way to proceed with representatives of international

8 humanitarian organizations and diplomatic and consular missions.

9 Q. Can we see from this document how the Red Cross and Red Crescent

10 status is regulated?

11 A. Yes, by the Vienna Convention and the agreement that the federal

12 government had concluded with these organizations.

13 Q. And how is the status of other humanitarian organizations

14 regulated?

15 A. By the Law on the Movement and Residence of Foreign Nationals.

16 Q. Can you now turn to page 2 in B/C/S. We see it now in English as

17 well. The first paragraph in B/C/S. I believe it's the first paragraph

18 below the translation of the stamp, the first full paragraph on the

19 English page. What does this document issued by the Ministry of the

20 Interior stipulate regarding the movement of members of international

21 humanitarian organizations?

22 A. This document instructs all employees of the police to respect the

23 full freedom of movement enjoyed by representatives of diplomatic and

24 consular missions and representatives of international organizations in

25 the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

Page 23041

1 Q. Does it also say that their diplomatic immunity has to be

2 respected?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. We'll skip the next paragraph. Could you now, please, look at

5 paragraph 3 on this page? What were your instructions regarding the

6 safety of movement of the representatives of these organizations?

7 A. We were instructed to caution them that in certain areas there was

8 a possibility of incidents and the police had the duty to warn them that

9 movement along those routes is not safe, but not to hinder their movement

10 if they still want to go forward on their own responsibility.

11 Q. Next paragraph. Did representatives of these organizations have

12 access to crisis areas?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the penultimate paragraph is it stipulated how representatives

15 of international organizations that do not have the status of diplomatic

16 missions should proceed?

17 A. Yes, it is stipulated. They are to regulate their status before

18 the competent authorities.

19 Q. What was your primary line of work in Kosovo and Metohija?

20 A. When I arrived there, I first tried to familiarize myself with all

21 the sectors in my line of work, and I toured all the secretariats of

22 internal affairs. My primary line of work was to maintain contacts with

23 international humanitarian organizations, the UNHCR, the International Red

24 Cross Committee, Pharmacists Without Borders, Doctors Without Borders, the

25 European Humanitarian Bureau, Oxfam, and some others whom I didn't

Page 23042

1 remember because I didn't have so many contacts with them. They would

2 inform me about the founders of their organization and their goals and

3 objectives. They would also familiarize me with their projects and

4 intentions in Kosovo and Metohija.

5 Q. You told us that you toured all the secretariats of internal

6 affairs. Did you contact with certain sectors or branch offices or

7 sections of these SUPs?

8 A. I only toured the departments that were involved in my line of

9 work. I wanted to see how they were operating and what their work

10 conditions were.

11 Q. What was the name of those departments in your line of work?

12 A. They were called at that time sections for foreign nationals.

13 Q. Thank you. Did representatives of international organizations

14 inform you where they intended to go?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Would you occasionally prohibit their travel to certain areas?

17 A. No, we did not. We just warned them that in certain areas we

18 could not guarantee their safety.

19 Q. How did you get information as to where the situation was unsafe?

20 A. Based on all the daily reports we received from all secretariats

21 of internal affairs.

22 Q. Did it sometimes happen that these representatives did not listen

23 to you and went to the area you had told them was unsafe in spite of your

24 warning?

25 A. Yes, I know that they went to such areas on their own risk and at

Page 23043

1 their own risk, and I remember, I cannot say precisely when this happened,

2 whether it was in August or September 1998, there were two occasions when

3 their vehicles came across anti-tank mines. And in one of these cases it

4 was an embassy vehicle, the vehicle of a diplomatic consular

5 representative office, in the other instance it was a Red Cross vehicle.

6 I think one person was killed in one such instance.

7 Q. Were you in charge of contacts with the Kosovo Verification

8 Mission?

9 A. No, I was not in charge of contacts with the KVM, that was not my

10 task, this was the task of Mr. Mijatovic. I just did technical jobs. I

11 attended some meetings and kept minutes.

12 Q. To go back to page 1 of the document you have before you, that's

13 6D262, I would like to know among the recipients, was this dispatch sent

14 only to the SUPs in Kosovo and Metohija or to all the SUPs in Serbia?

15 A. This dispatch was sent to all the SUPs on the territory of the

16 Republic of Serbia.

17 Q. Was it also sent to all the organizational units of the CRDB?

18 A. Yes, it was sent to all of them.

19 Q. Thank you. Who did you have contacts with most often?

20 A. Most frequently I had contacts with High Commissioner's Office for

21 Refugees and representatives of the International Committee of the Red

22 Cross. I even remember their names. Mr. Thomas Vargas [phoen] and

23 Ms. Beatrice Weber.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you have contacts with foreign journalists and

25 diplomats?

Page 23044

1 A. As regards foreign journalists and diplomats, no, I didn't have

2 any contact with them.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have in e-court document

4 6D689, please.

5 Q. You have the document before you, do you?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Would you tell us what sort of document this is, what the date is?

8 A. This is a document issued by the ministry staff and forwarded to

9 the Ministry of the Interior, to the office of the minister.

10 Q. On what date?

11 A. The date is the 14th of September, 1998.

12 Q. Do you remember the event described in this document, what is this

13 about?

14 A. Well, a case is described here of inappropriate behaviour by a

15 lady member of the international organization, the ICRC.

16 Q. In paragraph 3, right?

17 A. Yes, paragraph 3.

18 Q. Well, what happened on that occasion and how did you learn about

19 this?

20 A. Well, we received a report from the SUP of the territory where

21 this occurred. It says here that some policemen called on representatives

22 of the Siptar minority to return to their houses and the lady

23 representative of the International Committee of the Red Cross tried to

24 dissuade them from this. And on the 28th of July, 1998, when the vehicle

25 of the ICRC was being checked, five fixed radio stations were found for

Page 23045

1 which they did not have -- five stationary radio sets were found for which

2 they did not have the appropriate documentation, and it was established

3 they had been using the Pec SUP's working channel. The chief of their

4 office in Pristina, Beatrice Weber, was informed of all this.

5 Q. Was this part of their activities or did it go beyond their

6 official activities?

7 A. Well, this went beyond their sphere of activity, which is why this

8 document was compiled and forwarded to the ministry. And then through

9 other ministries appropriate steps could be taken.

10 Q. Did this report go through your line of work?

11 A. Yes, yes, it did.

12 Q. I seem to have omitted something in the case of document 6D262, so

13 could we have it back on the screen, please.

14 We have again before us a document issued by the Ministry of the

15 Interior on the 18th of June, 1998. Is this dispatch of an instructory

16 [as interpreted] nature?

17 A. Yes, it is. It says how employees of the police should behave and

18 how they should conduct themselves with respect to representatives of

19 international organizations.

20 Q. And at the end of the document on page 3 it's signed by Minister

21 Vlajko Stojiljkovic. Could the minister issue such instructory dispatches

22 to you along your line of work?

23 A. Yes, the minister could do that.

24 Q. While you were in Kosovo and Metohija as a member of the staff,

25 were you within the line of management in the administration for foreign

Page 23046

1 nationals [as interpreted]?

2 A. While I was engaged in these tasks, I was not in the line of

3 management of the border police administration.

4 Q. And did the border police stations inform you of anything; and if

5 so, what did they inform you about?

6 A. I received daily reports from the border police stations about the

7 flow of passengers on the border posts and the same reports were sent to

8 the border police administration. So these reports were sent to me for

9 information.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I wonder if there's a difficulty in the transcript,

11 the border police administration sprang from nowhere, 46, 11 and 12, were

12 you in the line of management in the -- now, what was your question,

13 Mr. Lukic?

14 MR. LUKIC: I'll clarify that with the witness rather than me

15 testifying.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. What was the name of the administration which was in charge of the

19 border police stations and where was it located?

20 A. This administration was called the border police administration,

21 and its headquarters was in Belgrade.

22 Q. What was the name of the part of the Novi Sad SUP from which you

23 went to Kosovo and Metohija?

24 A. That was the border police department for foreign nationals,

25 passports, and weapons. If I may clarify. As it's a long name, we used

Page 23047

1 an abbreviated form of the name. So the administration was referred to as

2 the border police administration and the departments were called either

3 the department for foreign nationals or the department of border police.

4 Q. And the border police administration and your department of border

5 police in the Novi Sad SUP and the border police station, were they all in

6 the same line of work in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia?

7 A. We all belonged to the same line of work, but the border police

8 department belonged to the Novi Sad SUP, whereas the border police

9 stations belonged directly to the border police administration and they

10 belonged directly to it. So that the border police department did not

11 have any authority over the border police stations.

12 Q. Novi Sad is in Vojvodina. While you were working in the border

13 police department in Novi Sad, did your department in Novi Sad have any

14 powers or authority over the border police stations in Vojvodina?

15 A. The department I worked in had no authority over the border police

16 stations in Vojvodina.

17 Q. In the MUP staff along that line of work, apart from you, was

18 there anybody else?

19 A. In the MUP of the Republic of Serbia [as interpreted], there was

20 no one else, apart from me, dealing with that line of work.

21 Q. I think you described it, but to clarify for the record let me ask

22 you the following. As a member of the staff could you issue binding

23 orders to the border police stations?

24 A. No, I could not issue binding orders to the border police

25 stations. That was done by the administration.

Page 23048

1 JUDGE BONOMY: There is another I think inaccuracy there. You

2 were asked in the MUP staff, apart from you, was there anyone else in that

3 line of work. And your answer was: "There was no one else, apart from

4 me, dealing with that line of work in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia."

5 Now, did you mean to state your unique position so broadly as

6 that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably the interpreters

8 misunderstood me. I said in the staff of the MUP of the Republic of

9 Serbia.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: So this isn't confined to the staff in Pristina or

11 in Novi Sad, this is -- you are the only one in the MUP dealing with this.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand your question.

13 Could you repeat it, please, or make it shorter.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you understand my confusion, Mr. Lukic?

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I do, because --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you assist, please.

17 MR. LUKIC: -- Serbian is clear. I can --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you assist, then please.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Just give us the name of the body where you were the only member

21 dealing with that line of work.

22 A. That was the staff of the Ministry of the Interior. I was the

23 only one there dealing with that line of work.

24 Q. In what place was the staff you're referring to?

25 A. The staff was in Pristina.

Page 23049

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now I understand. Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

3 Q. [Interpretation] What then was your role in the MUP staff?

4 A. Well, as I have already stated, my fundamental role consisted in

5 contacts with representatives of international organizations. As I have

6 already said, I received reports from the border police stations and

7 informed the staff leader or manager of any security-related events.

8 Q. I would now like to move on to your work in both parts of the

9 Ministry of the Interior, in the state security where, if I understand you

10 correctly, you worked for only a year. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, only a year.

12 Q. Is it possible that within the Ministry of the Interior one side

13 might issue binding orders to the other side?

14 A. No, that was not possible. These were two entirely separate

15 organizational units of the Ministry of the Interior. The only thing they

16 had in common was the minister of the interior, who was superior to both.

17 Q. Did these two sectors cooperate; and if so, on what basis?

18 A. Well, these two sectors did cooperate in terms of exchanging

19 information.

20 Q. Thank you. You've already told us about the line of work of the

21 border police stations, and you told us that they received their

22 orders, "nalog," from the administration for border affairs. What was the

23 relationship like between the border police stations in Kosovo and

24 Metohija in 1998 and 1999 with the SUPs on whose territory they were?

25 A. Well, in Kosovo and Metohija the organization was the same like

Page 23050

1 throughout the territory of the Republic of Serbia, that is to say that

2 all border police stations, not only in Kosovo and Metohija but in the

3 other parts of the Republic of Serbia as well, are directly linked to the

4 administration of the border police. Territorially, they are in the area

5 of a secretariat of the interior, but they are independent organizational

6 units.

7 Q. What is the role of the departments for border affairs or foreign

8 nationals within the respective SUPs?

9 A. The departments of border police dealt with status-related

10 questions pertaining to foreign nationals, then the issuance of passports

11 to the citizens of the Republic of Serbia, then the issuing of personal

12 identity cards, then questions related to weapons, issuing weapons

13 permits, and registering weapons. Also questions related to nationality

14 in the sense of statehood and other such affairs. There was a broad range

15 of work that these divisions and departments carried out.

16 Q. That cannot be seen from this abbreviated name, but if we look at

17 the full name of these departments we see that they are in charge of all

18 of these affairs?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember now, we didn't really work on this, what the full

21 name of these departments is?

22 A. It changed several times, but I think it's the department of the

23 border police for foreign nationals, passports or travel documents, and

24 weapons.

25 Q. Is it also for administrative matters, because you did refer to

Page 23051

1 personal identity cards as well?

2 A. Yes, for administrative matters too.

3 Q. Who headed the border police administration in 1998 and 1999, so

4 the administration in Belgrade?

5 A. In 1998 in the administration there was no chief of the

6 administration, there was an active -- acting chief. So it was a deputy

7 chief who was acting chief, and that was Mr. Petar Dujkovic.

8 Q. Tell us, please, who adopts the documents regulating the work of

9 the border police administration?

10 A. As I've already mentioned, this administration uses many

11 regulations, the bylaws are adopted by the minister, such as the rules and

12 instructions involved. Lower-ranking documents, like instructive

13 dispatches and orders, "nalog," are adopted by the chief of the

14 administration or the chief of the public security sector.

15 Q. Perhaps the transcript is not very clear. These instructions and

16 orders, "nalog," were they adopted or passed by the chief of the

17 administration or the chief of the public security sector?

18 A. Well, as I've already said, the instructive dispatches, this is a

19 term that is used, are adopted or passed by the chief of the

20 administration. However, if this deals with a more important question, as

21 we've already seen, then it can be done by the chief of section himself?

22 Q. It wasn't that I was not satisfied with your answer. We just

23 needed to clarify something for the sake of the record.

24 Were organizational units duty-bound to adopt plans of work?

25 A. Yes, they were. Plans -- organs -- all organizational units pass

Page 23052

1 an annual and monthly plan of work.

2 Q. The MUP staff in Kosovo, while you were its member, did it ever

3 pass an organizational plan for any MUP unit?

4 A. I'm not aware of any such thing. As for my line of work, and I

5 don't think that this was not done and I did not see it done for any other

6 line of work.

7 Q. What regulation regulates information and reporting within the

8 MUP?

9 A. May I answer? This field is regulated by the instruction on

10 information and reporting.

11 Q. Types of information in this instruction?

12 A. According to this information, there is urgent information and

13 regular information. Regular information involves the writing of daily

14 bulletins of events, monthly reports on work, and annual reports on work.

15 Sometimes biannual and trimesteral reports are written as well. It

16 depends on what the urgent matters are going to be that the ministry

17 should be informed of, that is to say that every organizational unit knows

18 what it is about which it has to be -- it has to send an urgent report to

19 the administration within the ministry that is involved for such matters.

20 Q. Since this document is not translated, I need to say for the sake

21 of the record that we need to look at 6D1323.

22 Mr. Vucurevic, I would like to ask you something else now, what

23 was the role of the staff and what was your personal role in daily

24 reporting?

25 A. Every day from all the secretariats of the interior in the

Page 23053

1 territory of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija we received

2 reports about the state of security in their respective areas. These

3 reports were reviewed by us and we also wrote a report that we sent to the

4 Ministry of the Interior. However, I wish to point out that these

5 secretariats along parallel lines sent these same reports to the Ministry

6 of the Interior.

7 Q. Within the staff was this information analysed, this information

8 that was received from the SUPs?

9 A. Yes. Analytical processing did take place, as far as I know,

10 since the ministry received the same reports only the most important

11 events would be included in these reports, that is to say major crimes,

12 terrorist attacks, and terrorist provocations.

13 Q. And you personally, what kind of data did you receive and did you

14 bring together some reports or some data that you received?

15 A. When the Kosovo Verification Mission was established, the staff

16 did receive reports about which police employees had contacts with the

17 Kosovo Verification Mission. These reports arrived in the staff, and then

18 we would write an aggregated report and then we would send it to the

19 Ministry of the Interior.

20 Q. Let us just go back to the reports that you received from the

21 border police stations. What was the nature of these reports that you got

22 from them?

23 A. These are regular reports that are written by all border police

24 stations, that is to say about the exit and entry into the country, the

25 number of persons involved in that, how many vehicles went out and came in

Page 23054

1 to the country.

2 Q. What I want to ask you is: Were these statistical reports or did

3 they go beyond that, the ones that you received regularly?

4 A. These were statistical reports.

5 Q. What legal regulations did you apply during the course of your

6 work, if you can remember now?

7 A. I've already said that we did indeed use many laws, first of all,

8 the Law on the Personal Identity Card, then the Law on Domicile and

9 Residence, the Law on Travel Documents, the Law on Citizenship, then the

10 Law on the Movement and Stay of Citizens -- Foreign Citizens, then the Law

11 on Weapons and Ammunition, the Law on Crossing the State Border and

12 Movement in the Border Area, then the Law on Associations of Citizens, and

13 I think that I have enumerated all of them. Perhaps I omitted some.

14 Q. That will do. Thank you.

15 Now I would like to call up in e-court a Prosecution document,

16 P1505.

17 Mr. Vucurevic, you have before you a decision on the establishment

18 of the staff of the ministry dated the 16th of June, 1998. First of all I

19 would like to ask you the following. Before you were sent out to Kosovo

20 and Metohija, did the MUP staff exist, the MUP staff for Kosovo and

21 Metohija?

22 A. As far as I know, it did exist.

23 Q. When were you sent to the MUP staff in Kosovo and Metohija we saw

24 that --

25 A. I received that decision on my sending there in March 1998, and I

Page 23055

1 started working there on the 1st of April, 1998.

2 Q. Who was head of staff then when you arrived?

3 A. The head of staff then was Mr. Aco Vesovic.

4 Q. From which administration was Mr. Vesovic?

5 A. Mr. Vesovic worked in the administration of traffic police.

6 Q. Now let us have a look at this decision dated the 16th of June,

7 1998. Some persons are referred to here. Can you tell us, you can leaf

8 through this document, can you tell us who the members of the staff were

9 from the 16th of April -- rather --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. -- 16th of June, 1998.

13 A. First and foremost, the head of the staff was Mr. Sreten Lukic.

14 Then Radislav Djinovic worked on the staff. I cannot remember exactly,

15 but I think that briefly, soon after this date, that's to say the end of

16 June, he left the staff, then Goran Radosavljevic, Novica Zdravkovic, and

17 later on Desimir Slovic came and Dusko Adamovic. Also, there were persons

18 there who were working at the Pristina SUP, such as Milorad Rajicic, Rasko

19 Milenkovic, and Dr. Dobrasin Krdzic and Milutin Vukovic. I think that he

20 also worked in the Pristina SUP. I just omitted Mr. Milan Cankovic. I

21 don't know where exactly he worked, but I know that he was sent to the

22 territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

23 Q. [Microphone not activated].

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Mr. Lukic.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, no microphone I think.

Page 23056

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

2 Q. We see in this decision that there is a reference to some names

3 that you had not mentioned as being the staff members. So now I'm going

4 to ask you about them. David Gajic, was he a member of the staff after

5 the 16th of June, 1998, or perhaps before that, too, because you were on

6 the staff before that as well?

7 A. No, David Gajic was not a member of the staff. When I came he

8 wasn't and he wasn't later either.

9 Q. Who was the deputy head of staff, the deputy head of the MUP staff

10 for Kosovo and Metohija?

11 A. The deputy head was Mr. Miroslav Mijatovic.

12 Q. Thank you. We see Milorad Lukovic being referred to as assistant

13 head of staff. Was Milorad Lukovic a member of this staff while you were

14 a member of this staff?

15 A. No, he was not a member of the staff.

16 Q. We also see Zivko Trajkovic referred to here. Was he a member of

17 the staff?

18 A. No, he wasn't either.

19 Q. What about the members of the staff who were not at the same time

20 employed with the Pristina SUP, did they have offices at the staff?

21 A. All of us who were sent to the staff of the MUP of the Republic of

22 Serbia had offices there in the building of the Pristina SUP. So it was

23 not a separate building housing the MUP staff. We were together with the

24 other employees of the SUP Pristina.

25 Q. What about the members of the staff who had simultaneous duties in

Page 23057

1 the SUP of Pristina, where were they seated?

2 A. They performed their regular duties in their own offices with the

3 Pristina SUP.

4 Q. Could you now turn to page 2. We can see that after these names

5 listed there is a reference to an expanded composition of the staff, and

6 it says that members of the staff in its expanded composition include

7 heads of secretariats. Were heads of secretariats of the interior from

8 Kosovo and Metohija indeed members of the staff and what kind of expanded

9 composition is this?

10 A. I don't know what this term, expanded staff, means, but I can tell

11 you that chiefs of secretariats were not members of the staff and I can

12 explain in greater detail why I don't think they were. Chiefs of

13 secretariats of internal affairs did not come to meetings at the staff on

14 a daily basis, nor did we have daily contact with them. I too attended

15 some meetings, four or five, at the MUP staff of the Republic of Serbia in

16 Pristina. They performed their regular jobs.

17 Q. In this same paragraph it says that chiefs of centres and sectors,

18 or rather, sections --

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 58, line 5, if

20 you allow me for the record --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: There must be something missing from there.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there is something missing.

23 The witness said that chiefs of secretariats attended those four or five

24 meetings, whereas it seems for the record -- from the record that he was

25 the only one who attended them. He plus the chiefs of secretariats.

Page 23058

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you happy with that interpretation, Mr. Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: I'll have to clarify it with the witness. I would

3 rather do that.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

6 Q. [Interpretation] You were telling us about chiefs of SUPs.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell us, for the record, repeat your answer. How often did they

9 come?

10 A. Well, I told you, I didn't see them every day in the building

11 which housed the staff. I saw them perhaps four or five times at the

12 staff when some meetings were held, but those were not staff meetings.

13 Those were meetings attended either by the minister of the interior or the

14 chief of the public security sector or perhaps the president of the

15 Republic of Serbia, Mr. Milutinovic. I forgot to mention him earlier.

16 That's why I said I thought there were not members of the staff.

17 Q. In your view, were chiefs of centres and sections of state

18 security in the area of Kosovo and Metohija members of the staff?

19 A. No, they were not members of the staff either, as far as I know.

20 I did not have any contact with them and I didn't see them at all. I can

21 only add the same thing that I said about chiefs of SUPs. When some

22 high-ranking state officials visited, they would come, but I didn't

23 otherwise see them and I didn't even know them.

24 Q. Did members of the staff come regularly to those offices from

25 which they worked, or almost every day?

Page 23059

1 A. We came to work every day like all the other employees of the

2 Ministry of the Interior.

3 Q. Do you know whether Goran Radosavljevic was in command of some

4 units?

5 A. Not that I know. As far as I know, his work was in training. As

6 far as I know, he graduated from the school of physical education at the

7 university and his job was to train policemen.

8 Q. We saw that decision to send you to Kosovo and Metohija, 6D1048,

9 and the decision terminating your engagement, which was 6D1049. So in

10 that connection I'd like to ask you, was the head of the staff able to

11 appoint members?

12 A. As far as I know, he was not.

13 Q. Could the head of staff dismiss any member of the staff?

14 A. No, he could not, because he was not the one who made decisions on

15 appointment or termination.

16 Q. Did the MUP staff -- could the MUP staff or its head appoint or

17 replace or recall policemen in Kosovo and Metohija?

18 A. No.

19 Q. We are still with this decision to establish the MUP staff of the

20 16th of June. Now, on page 2 could you please focus on paragraph marked

21 with the Roman numeral II, in English it's not a Roman numeral, but it

22 deals with the tasks of the staff. It says: "The staff is tasked with

23 planning, organizing, and managing the activities and employment of the

24 organizational units of the ministry, including the units sent and

25 seconded and suppressing terrorism in the autonomous province of Kosovo

Page 23060

1 and Metohija."

2 We have discussed plans already, but I'm going to ask you again in

3 view of this decision. Did the MUP staff plan the work of MUP

4 organizational units in Kosovo and Metohija?

5 A. No, the MUP staff did not plan the work of organizational units in

6 the territory of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija.

7 Q. Did it organize the work of these organizational units?

8 A. The staff did not.

9 Q. Who organizes the staff of organizational units?

10 A. Could you repeat that question?

11 Q. Who organizes the work of organizational units, do you know?

12 A. The chief of secretariat, the chief of SUP, that is, the

13 secretariat for internal affairs.

14 Q. What about the level of OUPs?

15 A. The chief of the OUP.

16 Q. Did the staff supervise the work and employment of organizational

17 units?

18 A. No, it did not supervise the work and employment of organizational

19 units.

20 Q. Did the MUP staff organize and supervise anti-terrorist actions,

21 as far as you know?

22 A. To the best of my knowledge, the staff did not do that.

23 Q. Therefore, this decision to establish the staff in the period

24 while you were on it, did it ever work in practice?

25 A. Not in my opinion.

Page 23061

1 Q. There's a document that I did not announce, it's 6D798, so I'm not

2 going to show it to you but it is a record -- the minutes of a meeting

3 held at the staff on the 22nd of July, 1998. This document is already an

4 exhibit in this case. I'm told that Mr. Petrovic did announce it for the

5 cross-examination of this witness and it was also announced by the

6 Prosecution.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the Chamber give me leave to use

8 it myself or shall I continue without using the document?

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there any objection to it being used?

10 MR. HANNIS: No.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue -- yes, you may use it.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. [Interpretation] I don't think you have it either, so could you

14 please look at it on the screen.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 6D798 in e-court, please.

16 Q. First of all, do you see yourself among those who attended this

17 meeting?

18 A. Yes, I was there.

19 Q. Concerning the agenda of that meeting, and the problem with this

20 document is that it is incomplete so that on the following page we have

21 only one paragraph and we don't see everything that was done at the

22 meeting from these minutes. But from the portion we can see I would like

23 to ask you if the agenda included what is indicated in item 3, what is

24 written there.

25 A. Item 3 reads: "Defining or identifying tasks connected with the

Page 23062

1 implementation of the general [as interpreted] plan and the follow-up

2 task."

3 Q. In the course of that meeting, was there, indeed, discussion about

4 that general [as interpreted] plan and what was said?

5 A. I cannot remember all the details, but from what I remember that

6 was the first time I heard of such a plan. That plan was essentially

7 about taking an action to suppress terrorism in the territory of the

8 autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, because as far as I remember

9 at that time many roads were blocked and normal movement along those roads

10 was impossible. Those roads were held by members of the KLA. So it was

11 the first time I ever heard of such a plan.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I rise to raise an issue about

13 translation. The translation of that paragraph 3 in court today has

14 been "general plan" where the document says "global plan," and maybe no

15 one else does, but I see a difference between those two terms, between

16 "global" and "general."

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Interestingly, I think the Serb word used

18 was "global" in the question, and I was somewhat surprised at the

19 translation and I was about to raise it.

20 So let's ask the interpreter to consider again what is the correct

21 translation of the expression that both Mr. Lukic and the witness used to

22 describe the plan.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is purely my opinion

24 that the word "general" corresponds better to the actual meaning because

25 the word "global" in English means "world." But I may be wrong.

Page 23063

1 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a situation which I think is best dealt with

2 following reflection, and therefore we shall invite CLSS to review this

3 particular sentence, that's the sentence number 3 in the first page of

4 these minutes, and we'll proceed conscious of the potential difficulty of

5 accurately interpreting this reference.

6 Please continue, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. At this meeting we see a list of the other people who attended,

9 they are listed here, but tell us if they were really present, General

10 Vlastimir Djordjevic and General Obrad Stevanovic.

11 A. Yes, I believe they were there.

12 Q. Who in fact informed you of this plan and the tasks?

13 A. I cannot remember exactly now whether it was Mr. Vlastimir

14 Djordjevic or perhaps Obrad Stevanovic.

15 Q. But it was one of the two?

16 A. Yes, one of the two.

17 Q. What did one of the two tell you about that plan, if you remember?

18 A. Well, after all this time it's difficult to remember everything

19 that went on at a meeting, but I believe it was said that because of the

20 very difficult situation in the area of the autonomous province of Kosovo

21 and Metohija, the state leadership or somebody else, but I think the word

22 state leadership was mentioned, adopted that plan to prevent terrorism.

23 And as far as I remember, it was said that the plan would involve the

24 participation of the units of the VJ, the Army of Yugoslavia, and police

25 units.

Page 23064

1 Q. We have seen that General Djordjevic and General Stevanovic were

2 in Kosovo and Metohija at the time. Did they stay after the meeting and

3 until when?

4 A. To the best of my recollection, they did stay but I cannot tell

5 you until when, until September I believe or end October. They stayed in

6 Pristina.

7 Q. You said until end September or end October, so when these actions

8 were finished they left Kosovo; is that correct?

9 A. To the best of my recollection, that's correct.

10 Q. Do you remember after the departure of the KVM which left on the

11 20th of March, 1999, before the air-strikes did General Obrad Stevanovic

12 again come to Kosovo and Metohija?

13 A. Yes, I think he did and I think he was in Pristina.

14 Q. I now wish to move on to another topic.

15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if it's a suitable time, I would like to

16 make a break now.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: We have to break for lunch at this stage,

18 Mr. Vucurevic, that will be for an hour. Could you please leave the

19 courtroom with the usher and we will see you again at 1.45.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Arrangements have been made OLAD to enable the

23 previous witness to have the opportunity of legal advice before answering

24 any further questions. The lawyer who will be available for consultation

25 with him is Jelena Nikolic, she is presently involved in matters at the

Page 23065

1 UNDU and cannot be here until 1.00 at the earliest. But so that she may

2 make use of the time available when she does arrive and before we resume,

3 I will say now what I would have said in her presence and this can be

4 shown to her when she does arrive, that what the Chamber wishes is that

5 she should meet with the witness, advise him that the Chamber have

6 assigned her as a lawyer from whom he may take advice on his rights under

7 Rule 90(E) before continuing with his evidence. And if he indicates that

8 he wishes advice from her, then she should provide the advice he

9 requires. And then we would hear from her before the evidence resumes

10 that she's satisfied that she's complied with that undertaking and that he

11 understands the position before we continue.

12 Now, does any counsel want to add anything that should be drawn to

13 her attention?

14 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour, I think that I just learned

15 something from my colleagues, that she was appointed to represent

16 Mr. Djordjevic, Vlastimir Djordjevic, for the initial appearance, duty

17 counsel at that time. I don't know if it can raise any problems. And for

18 Pantic, she was in Belgrade even more, yeah.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, Mr. Lukic?

20 MR. LUKIC: For Mr. Pantic she was present in Belgrade during

21 his -- Momir Pantic.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you see as the problem there? She does not

23 act for Djordjevic, she did appear for his initial appearance. She's not

24 directly involved in that case in a capacity that could cause a conflict

25 of interest so far as I'm aware.

Page 23066

1 MR. HANNIS: In my dealings with her in connection with that brief

2 representation, I understand she had actually very little communication

3 with Mr. Djordjevic because I think he didn't want her. And so there

4 wasn't a lot of substantive contact, from my knowledge.

5 MR. LUKIC: We are not objecting, just to be clear just for Your

6 Honours.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. I'm more concerned to know if there's

8 anything that should be added to what I've just indicated. I don't think

9 it's right to be any more specific about the circumstances of the

10 questioning. The witness is in midstream and there is no need for the

11 details to be discussed, but it's open to him to raise with her any issues

12 that he thinks might fall under the rule and to seek advice. It's not for

13 us to guide any further on this I think.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think -- I think your remarks

15 instructed her to advise him of the contents of the rule, but I'm not

16 certain about that. I think that's probably important that she read the

17 rule to him or let him understand the rule, because otherwise he may have

18 no idea what's going on.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I'm very reluctant to try to tell my -- I've

20 got to watch what I say here. There's a terrible English expression which

21 I won't use. But I have to be careful not to try to tell someone her

22 job. There are certain basic things that I think we can assume she will

23 address, and we are dealing with an experienced attorney who will be able

24 I think very readily to give the necessary advice.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 23067

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Apparently she has sought more information about

2 the circumstances. I don't want to prevent necessary disclosure, and I

3 would be I think assisted by counsel considering any request for further

4 information and hopefully reaching agreement on what should be provided.

5 If she feels unhappy about dealing with the job without further

6 information, then hopefully among counsel agreement can be reached on what

7 further information she should be given. If there is any difficulty, then

8 we will have to resume at 1.45 with her in court and we can deal openly

9 with what she requires.

10 So we'll resume at 1.45.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.51 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, we'll continue with this witness for

14 half an hour and hope that by that time we can deal with Mr. Milenkovic.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry for the delay, Mr. Vucurevic. Technical

18 problems prevented us starting any quicker.

19 Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you again, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vucurevic, we will now move on to the

22 relations between the MUP staff, although we've already spoken about this,

23 but we'll go into it deeper, and the organizational units of the MUP in

24 Kosovo and Metohija. So please let's have on e-court Exhibit 6D266. You

25 have the document before you?

Page 23068

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Who sent this document and who are the recipients?

3 A. This document was sent out by the MUP of the Republic of Serbia,

4 the public security sector, and it was addressed to the secretariats of

5 the interior in Pristina, Kosovska Mitrovica, Pec, Djakovica, Prizren,

6 Urosevac, Gnjilane, Vranje, Leskovac, Prokuplje, Kraljevo, and Novi Pazar.

7 Q. Let me just interrupt you here for a minute. Are these the

8 secretariats of the interior in Kosovo and Metohija and some from Serbia

9 proper?

10 A. Yes. First there is a list of the secretariats on the territory

11 of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija and then some

12 secretariats on the territory of Serbia. If I need to, I can tell you

13 which ones they are.

14 Q. Well, we know which ones are not in Kosovo. Who else is the

15 recipient of this document?

16 A. The ministry staff in Pristina, the border police stations, do I

17 need to read them all out?

18 Q. Just tell us whether they are all in Kosovo.

19 A. No, they're not all in Kosovo. Prohor Pcinjski and Presevo are

20 not in Kosovo.

21 Q. And who else is an addressee?

22 A. The police administration as it says here, that means the

23 headquarters of the ministry, the crime police administration, the traffic

24 police administration, and the border police administration and OC,

25 operations centre. These last five organizational units were in the

Page 23069

1 ministry headquarters.

2 Q. The dispatch we see before us, is it one that issues orders?

3 A. Yes, it's a dispatch issuing orders as to certain measures to be

4 taken.

5 Q. While you were in Kosovo and Metohija, who issued orders in full

6 and directly to the units in Kosovo and Metohija?

7 A. It was the Ministry of the Interior, and most often it said public

8 security sector in the heading or a subordinate administration if it

9 referred strictly to one line of work.

10 Q. Is this document in accordance with what you say about this?

11 A. Yes, because all the secretariats are listed as addressees.

12 Q. The line of issuing orders and reporting orders, meaning "nalog,"

13 while you were in Kosovo and Metohija as a member of the staff between the

14 headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior and the secretariats of the

15 interior remain unchanged -- did it remain unchanged regardless of the

16 existence of the staff?

17 A. Yes, it remained intact, so the secretariats of the interior

18 briefed the Ministry of the Interior directly.

19 Q. And with regard to orders, "nalog"?

20 A. They arrived directly from the ministry, directly to the

21 secretariats, and they were sent to the staff for information only.

22 Q. The fact that they were sent to the staff for information, was

23 this done simultaneously, at the same time, as when the "nalog" was sent

24 to the secretariats of the interior?

25 A. Yes, this was done in parallel, as can be seen from this document.

Page 23070

1 Q. Did the secretariats of the interior automatically carried out the

2 orders, the "nalog," that they received from the secretariat of the

3 interior in Belgrade or the ministry?

4 A. Yes, they carried out these orders independently.

5 Q. And whose orders did the lower organizational units of the

6 Ministry of the Interior carry out in the public security sector? For

7 example, the police stations and branch police stations?

8 A. When the secretariat of the interior received a certain

9 order, "nalog," from the Ministry of the Interior, then it would issue the

10 same "nalog" to its lower organizational units, such as the departments of

11 the interior or the police stations.

12 Q. Did the MUP staff have the ability to change something in an order

13 arriving from the Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade?

14 A. No, the MUP staff did not change these orders, these "nalog."

15 Q. But did it have the power to change it?

16 A. No, because it did not issue them. So as you can see from this

17 document, the ministry sending an order directly to the organizational

18 units on the territory of the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija.

19 Q. Tell us now what the line was how the regular tasks within the MUP

20 were carried out.

21 A. Can show you this -- I can illustrate it by explaining the line of

22 work I did. So when the border police administration issues a "nalog," an

23 order, it is sent on to the secretariat of the interior, to the department

24 carrying or the section carrying out those tasks. And then this

25 department - I'm talking about my line of work now - these were

Page 23071

1 territorial organizational units and they would have employees dealing

2 with my line of work. And then my department would send the same order to

3 them, we would forward the ministry order to them.

4 Q. And when you say "my department," are you referring to when you

5 were in the SUP or in the staff?

6 A. I'm referring to when I'm in the SUP.

7 Q. Did the MUP staff or its manager have the power to take

8 disciplinary measures for failure to carry out tasks within the SUPs?

9 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, no. The head of the staff or the

10 Chief of Staff could not do that.

11 Q. As a member of the staff, were you able to take measures linked to

12 responsibility for failure to carry out tasks having to do with the

13 departments and sectors for the border and foreign nationals?

14 A. No, I was not.

15 Q. Was the MUP staff or its head responsible to the minister for the

16 work of the secretariat of the interior?

17 A. No, it was not responsible for the work of the secretariats, to

18 the best of my knowledge.

19 Q. Were you as a member of the staff responsible for the work of the

20 departments and sectors within the SUPs, for foreign nationals and the

21 border, or for the work of the border police stations?

22 A. No, I was not responsible. As I have already stated, from the

23 border police stations they were directly responsible to the

24 administration and the sectors and departments were directly responsible

25 to the Ministry of the Interior within which they were operating --

Page 23072

1 secretariat.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not the ministry but

3 the secretariats.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Was the MUP staff or its leader possessed of any authority as

6 regards commendations, promotions, or dismissals of members of the

7 organizational units of the Ministry of the Interior in Kosovo and

8 Metohija?

9 A. I'm not aware that he had such powers.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have on e-court -- have

11 6D262.

12 Q. We've already seen this document in a different context. So now,

13 in this particular context I'll ask you the following. Is this an example

14 where from the public security sector the secretariats of the interior and

15 the border police stations are being issued with direct orders -- I

16 apologise, I misspoke, that the minister sends direct orders, "nalog," to

17 the bodies I have mentioned.

18 A. Yes. This is an example of that because it says in the

19 heading "Ministry of the Interior" and it doesn't say which organizational

20 unit within the ministry is sending this document. And at the end of the

21 document we see that it was signed by the minister, Vlajko Stojiljkovic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have in e-court document

23 6D267.

24 Q. You see the document. From which part of the ministry was this

25 document sent?

Page 23073

1 A. Well, the copy is barely legible, but I see it says "RJB," public

2 security sector.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn to the last page,

4 please.

5 Q. And could you tell us who the signatory is?

6 A. Assistant to the minister, chief of the public security sector,

7 Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic.

8 Q. Now, please tell us the date of the document.

9 A. Well, it's not very clear here, but I think the date is the 3rd of

10 November, 1998.

11 Q. What does this document refer to?

12 A. This document refers to the arrival of the Kosovo Verification

13 Mission and it prescribes the obligations of police employees, where the

14 mission would be located and how their status issues were to be

15 regulated. And also, who was tasked with contacts with representatives of

16 the verification mission.

17 Q. On page 2, last paragraph, is the chief of the sector designating

18 a person who is in charge of contacts with the KVM?

19 A. Yes. On behalf of the MUP staff in Pristina it was Colonel

20 Miroslav Mijatovic, and in the headquarters of the secretariat the chiefs

21 of the secretariats. And in other municipalities, the chiefs of the

22 departments of the interior and the police station commanders.

23 Q. And does this dispatch have the nature of a "nalog"?

24 A. Yes, yes, it does.

25 Q. Is this an example where a "nalog" is sent directly from the

Page 23074

1 public security sector to the secretariats and the border police stations?

2 A. Yes, because we see it was sent directly to the secretariats of

3 the interior and to the border police stations, all of them -- all the

4 ones, rather, on the territory of the Republic of Serbia.

5 Q. We see that one of the recipients is RDB. Was something issued to

6 them as a "nalog," or was this for information only?

7 A. Well, it says here that it was sent to them for information only.

8 Q. Thank you. In order to clarify the everyday operations and work,

9 I'll ask you about the SUPs first. Did the SUPs need any kind of "nalog"

10 from the MUP staff to act on information, for example, that a crime had

11 been committed or in connection with any other security-related event?

12 A. No. The secretariats, not only on the territory of the autonomous

13 province of Kosovo and Metohija, but throughout the territory of the

14 Republic of Serbia were independent in their work. An annual and a

15 monthly work-plan would be adopted, and they were duty-bound to act

16 pursuant to those plans. Whenever a security-related event occurred such

17 as a crime, the secretariats would act independently and they would inform

18 the ministry of what action they had taken.

19 Q. In connection with your line of work, did the ministry, or was the

20 ministry staff supposed to regulate the functioning of the departments and

21 sectors for the border and foreign nationals within the secretariat of the

22 interior or was it supposed to regulate the work of the border police

23 stations?

24 A. No. I as a member of the staff dealing with that line of work did

25 not do that, and I can explain why not. When I spoke about the

Page 23075

1 administration of the border police, the administration had more than one

2 organizational unit and these were also divided within that line of work

3 according to the lines of work. And there were several persons able to

4 monitor and control the work of the sectors and departments within the

5 secretariat of the interior. I did not have the wherewithal to do that.

6 Q. When you say I did not have time and I could not do that, were you

7 authorised to do something like that?

8 A. No, I was not authorised.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 6D269 called up

10 in e-court.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: While that's happening, can I just check one

12 thing. Was there someone in the Pristina SUP office who dealt with the

13 same sort of things as you dealt with in Novi Sad?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the Pristina SUP there is

15 also a border police department. If you allow me, I will explain. In the

16 territory of the Republic of Serbia, in every secretariat there is an

17 organizational unit that is involved in the kind of work that I was

18 involved in. In larger secretariats, like the SUP of Nis, SUP of

19 Pristina, SUP of Kragujevac, and SUP of Novi Sad, these organizational

20 units are called departments. In smaller secretariats they are called

21 divisions. While I was in Pristina, this department functioned absolutely

22 normally and the department had its own head and had employees who were

23 subordinated to him.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 Mr. Lukic.

Page 23076

1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. You have before you 6D269?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What kind of a document is this, please? Could you please tell us

5 what kind of a document it is, who sent it, and when it was sent.

6 A. This is a document of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. It was

7 sent on the 18th of February, 1999. And in this document it is stated

8 what should be done due to the complexity of the situation in the

9 then-Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in relation to the attacks by NATO

10 forces.

11 Q. In the first paragraph is a fear expressed that there will be

12 larger-scale movements of the population?

13 A. Yes. What is stated there, or rather, what is envisioned is that

14 there may be larger-scale population movements from the border area

15 further into the territory. I assume that the assessment was like that

16 because an aggression was expected to be carried out by NATO forces, and

17 it was expected that these forces would enter from the Republic of

18 Macedonia and the Republic of Albania.

19 Q. Can we see anywhere in this document an assessment to the effect

20 that the population might leave the country?

21 A. No, I see no such assessment here.

22 Q. You were in Kosovo only a few days into the bombing, but while you

23 were still in Kosovo were you informed about documents being taken away

24 from civilians?

25 A. As far as I can remember, no one informed me about that.

Page 23077

1 Q. While you were in Kosovo and later on, did you ever hear that

2 anyone ordered that documents be taken away?

3 A. Also as far as I can remember, no one issued that kind of an

4 order, "nalog," to me.

5 Q. Seizing and destroying documents, would there be any point in that

6 in terms of annulling citizens' status?

7 A. Well, in my view, seizing documents would be pointless. I can

8 show this by resorting to the example of the personal identity card. For

9 example, sometimes citizens used [as interpreted] their personal IDs.

10 That doesn't mean that they no longer live where they live and it doesn't

11 mean that they are not citizens of Serbia any longer. They lose their

12 IDs, and that's it. For example, a photograph of a person to whom a

13 personal ID is issued has that photograph both on the ID itself and also

14 on a document that is kept in the file. Also, there is a finger-print of

15 the right index finger. And then also as requests are received for

16 issuing personal IDs, they are registered in certain logs and these logs

17 are kept on a permanent basis. So we can always check to who a personal

18 ID card was issued and when.

19 In addition to that, there are ledgers with birth certificates and

20 also books of citizens, nationals, and there are double copies at that.

21 For example, if there is to be -- if there is a fire or any kind of

22 accident, there is always another copy of that kind of birth register. So

23 in my view, someone's existence cannot be simply annulled.

24 MR. LUKIC: Just for the record, on page 78, line 3 [In English]

25 We can see the word "used" should be "losed" so it's not --

Page 23078

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Lose, lose.

2 MR. LUKIC: It's that somebody lost his ID.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 JUDGE CHOWHAN: Well, I'm sorry, I have a little request to make

5 to clarify a position. Of course when documents are lost within a country

6 and someone can approach the concern establishments for purposes of

7 procuring its duplicates on the basis of proof, but what happens when

8 somebody is to cross the border and he's gone; how will he come in without

9 the documents? Can he get a duplicate in a foreign country? Now, that's

10 a little clarification you'll have to add to what you have already said.

11 Thank you very much.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If a citizen of the Federal Republic

13 of Yugoslavia loses his documents abroad, the duplicates of such documents

14 cannot be issued to him. He is duty-bound to come to a diplomatic or a

15 consular office of our country that issues him with a lesse passe in order

16 to return to the country. So he is duty-bound to give truthful and

17 accurate information about himself, and then these details are checked in

18 the country. Of course say if this person says that he lives in Novi Sad,

19 then the information is checked in Novi Sad, and then he gets a lesse

20 passe in order to enter the country and then it is his duty to get

21 duplicate documents in the country, he does it himself for all the

22 documents that he had lost.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zecevic.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, page 78, line 16, I believe

25 the witness says: In my view, someone's existence cannot be simply

Page 23079

1 annulled by seizing the identification documents.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: By seizing his documents, yeah. Thank you.

3 Now, Mr. Lukic, is this a suitable time to interrupt?

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's fine.


6 MR. LUKIC: We are aware of the situation, so we would rather have

7 this witness finish if he wants to continue. We don't know what the

8 position is --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: So you would rather finish with Mr. Milenkovic?

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, indeed.

12 Mr. Vucurevic, we were in the middle of the evidence of

13 Mr. Milenkovic when we brought you in. There was another issue to be

14 dealt with. We're now in a position I think to return to his evidence, so

15 we will interrupt your evidence at this stage, regrettably. Whatever we

16 had done today, you are going to be back here on Monday in any event.

17 However, meanwhile would you please leave the courtroom with the usher and

18 stay in this building. I will speak to you again at some stage before you

19 leave for the evening or possibly you may be back in the witness box

20 continuing your evidence. At the moment the position is not clear, but we

21 will speak to you a bit later on this afternoon. Now please leave the

22 courtroom with the usher.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 MR. LUKIC: Maybe you should warn this witness about contacts.

Page 23080

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?

2 MR. LUKIC: I thought maybe you should warn this witness about his

3 duty not to contact anybody.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that will be before he leaves -- he won't be

6 leaving until later this afternoon.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Ms. Nikolic.

9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that following the request made by the

11 Trial Chamber the Tribunal registry arranged for you to meet with

12 Mr. Milenkovic to advise him of his rights in terms of Rule 90(E) of the

13 Tribunal's Rules. Can you confirm that?

14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you confirm to us that you have fully advised

16 him of his rights under the rule?

17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, fully.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Does he understand them?

19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, fully.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Do you consider it necessary that you should remain here?

22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. By your leave, I

23 should like to withdraw.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Give us one moment, please.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 23081

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milenkovic, are you satisfied that you have

2 received appropriate advice of your rights under Rule 90(E) of the

3 Tribunal's Rules from Ms. Nikolic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: And are you now content to proceed to give further

6 evidence in her absence? She may now leave the courtroom?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am fully prepared to do so, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

10 We are extremely grateful to you, Ms. Nikolic, for the assistance

11 you've afforded at very short notice and you may now leave the courtroom.

12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milenkovic, you will appreciate your

14 entitlement to refuse to answer any question where you consider that the

15 answer may incriminate you; should that situation arise, you should draw

16 that to my attention.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell me --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Tell me if you consider you do not wish to answer a

21 question. You understand?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully understand you and I'm going

23 to reply to each and every one of your questions.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, of course it should be made clear to you that

25 you are also absolutely entitled to answer any question you wish to

Page 23082

1 answer.

2 Mr. Hannis, you may now continue with the cross-examination.

3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Milenkovic, I'd like to start by showing you a photograph that

5 is Exhibit P2629. I can give you a hard copy. It will be on the screen

6 as well. Now, I understand that you've seen this photograph before when

7 you spoke with the war crimes prosecutor, and I believe that's

8 Mr. Stankovic, correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. You told us that was in March of 2007. Did you not see this

11 photograph prior to that date?

12 A. No, I had never seen it.

13 Q. You didn't see the version that was in the media in the Danas

14 article at the end of January 2007 which is the same picture except with a

15 black bar over part of your face? You didn't see that one?

16 A. Your Honours, I read the newspapers very often but only sports

17 newspapers. I heard of that picture that was published in the newspaper

18 called Danas and I made quite a bit of effort in order to get a copy of

19 that newspaper and I did see that picture.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. Well, sometime towards the end of January, something like that,

22 roughly, I cannot give you the exact date, but I think it was after the

23 25th of January, 2007.

24 Q. So that was the first time you saw this photograph then, in

25 January 2007?

Page 23083

1 A. I think that that would be right as far as I can remember.

2 Q. You realize that photograph was taken by one of your colleagues

3 from the 37th Detachment of the PJP? Please don't name any name, but

4 you're aware of that, aren't you?

5 A. I don't know who took this photograph.

6 Q. Well, at the time of that event there was nobody else within

7 camera range to take such photograph, was there, other than your

8 colleagues from the 37th?

9 A. In that action that we took part in there were six of us taking

10 part. So I really could not see or did I expect any one of us to have a

11 camera on him and take pictures of what he did.

12 Q. Okay. You mentioned that when you met with the war crimes

13 prosecutor he showed you five photographs. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I want to show you two other photographs, Exhibit P2630, which is

16 a picture of the wounded man that's in the one you currently have before

17 you; and then P2628, which is of another individual. We'll look at 2630

18 first. That photograph of the man who's in the picture where you appear,

19 is that another one of the photographs the war crimes prosecutor showed

20 you?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. And the third one of another wounded terrorist or KLA person, and

23 it's 2629, I believe, is that another one that was shown to you by the

24 prosecutor Stankovic?

25 A. As far as I can remember, I think it is.

Page 23084

1 Q. Do you recall what the other two photographs were of?

2 A. I think it was one person who was on a blanket or on a -- or on a

3 tarpaulin. I don't remember the rest because it was really over a year

4 ago.

5 Q. Okay. P2628 is a picture of a person on a blanket. Did you see

6 additional pictures of him?

7 A. No, I did not see any other photograph. I'm not sure. That's the

8 way it seems to be, but I'm not sure.

9 Q. Well, I'm not clear now. I thought you told us you saw five

10 photographs when you talked with Prosecutor Stankovic. Is that correct or

11 incorrect?

12 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. I think that I was shown five

13 photographs, but I'm not sure whether all five involved these persons or

14 whether there was yet another photograph as well.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: We had earlier evidence, Mr. Hannis, of the

16 photograph of the men on and around the tank as being one of the

17 photographs shown to him by the prosecutor.

18 MR. HANNIS: Yes, but I think he indicated that was not one of the

19 five that he was shown.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: That's I think correct, just to ensure there's no

21 confusion. Thank you.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

23 Q. Now, those other two photographs you -- are you saying they were

24 of some different individuals than the two wounded KLA persons we see in

25 those three that you have on the desk in front of you?

Page 23085

1 A. Well, I think that they were only photographs that can be -- of

2 the persons that can be seen here in these photographs that are in front

3 of me. There was even one, I can't remember which one it was exactly,

4 with the tank that you showed me before this break.

5 Q. Okay. When you talked about this before, I understood that on

6 this occasion you found only two living wounded KLA members or terrorists

7 after that initial fighting which you said lasted about two hours,

8 correct? There weren't any other living or surviving fighters in that

9 location, were there?

10 A. In addition to these two wounded persons, there weren't any others

11 there at that location except for those who had escaped into the forests.

12 Q. Yeah, apart from some that had fled beyond your reach, the only

13 ones you had found were some dead ones and then these two that you

14 captured, correct?

15 A. Yes, exactly.

16 Q. Okay. I want to go through the sequence with you again to be sure

17 I understand. At page 22975, line 24, you said: "We combed the terrain

18 crawling, trying to avoid being seen from the terrorists hiding in the

19 vineyards, trying to avoid getting killed, and at one point we heard

20 somebody moaning from inside a connecting trench."

21 Is that right so far?

22 A. Yes, for the most part you got it right, but the fire that was

23 opened at us was the moment when we were crawling to this place where

24 their connection trenches were, where they were fortified. Fire was

25 opened from the thicket nearby, which we saw when a few of them escaped.

Page 23086

1 As for the moans, we heard them, or rather, I heard it when I got close to

2 the communication trench, when I crawled close to their trenches that had

3 been dug before that.

4 Q. And I understood your answer yesterday you said: "We heard

5 somebody moaning from inside a connecting trench."

6 The moaning you heard was coming from a trench, correct?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. And you went on to say that Dejan Mihajlovic and Zoran the

9 commander were the first to go in, that you weren't far from there, and

10 you heard from them there were people wounded inside. You then say: "I

11 came out from behind a bush holding my rifle in the combat posture that I

12 learned during training, and that's the posture you see on the photograph

13 as I'm standing over this seriously wounded man who was gasping for breath

14 and there came a wheezing sound from his throat so he was -- he was so

15 badly wounded."

16 Now, I took it from that description yesterday that that

17 photograph of you standing over the man is when you came out from behind

18 the bush, right, that's the first moment you came upon him, right?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Is that inside a trench? The photograph doesn't look like it's

21 inside a trench that I'm familiar with.

22 A. I really cannot answer that question, but I believe this is right

23 next to that trench.

24 Q. Okay. And you told us that --

25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we're going to have questions on a

Page 23087

1 picture, I think we should have that picture up on the screen. I think we

2 have the other picture up on the screen from my --

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, the witness has the picture in front of him I

4 think, Mr. Hannis, is that correct?

5 MR. HANNIS: He does, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: But we should all see it on the screen. Thank you,

7 Mr. Ivetic.


9 Q. Well, now I need to move to another picture for the next

10 question. You told us that this seriously wounded man had a throat wound,

11 is that correct, or a neck wound? Didn't you tell us that the other day?

12 A. I don't think that's what I said. I said that he had blood on his

13 face, but his wounds were to the arm and his knee.

14 MR. HANNIS: Can we look at the photograph P2630 right now.

15 Q. Can you tell us where his arm wound was? I can see in general

16 where the leg wound might be, but on this photograph I can't see an arm

17 wound.

18 A. I have to show you if you want to look at me. His wound was here,

19 in this part.

20 Q. You're pointing to the underside of your left bicep, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But it wasn't so bad that he wasn't able to extend both of his

23 arms up toward you where we saw in the earlier photograph where you're

24 standing over him, right? Which is P2629 for the record. You see that?

25 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you please repeat.

Page 23088

1 Q. The wound to his left arm was not so bad that he was not able to

2 raise and extend both of his arms up toward you as you were standing over

3 him, right?

4 A. I only saw that he was wounded in the arm and bleeding from that

5 wound. Now, how serious that wound was, I wasn't in a position to assess.

6 Q. And there was a tourniquet on his leg but there was no tourniquet

7 on his arm wound, was there?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. You told us yesterday that you did not have your finger on the

10 trigger. I would ask you to look again at that photograph. Isn't your

11 index finger extended through the trigger housing?

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have the photograph on the screen then,

13 Mr. Hannis.

14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, P2629 should be on the screen now, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you hear the question?

16 Could you repeat it please, Mr. Hannis.

17 MR. HANNIS: Okay.

18 Q. And there was a tourniquet on his leg but there was no tourniquet

19 on his arm wound, correct?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: You asked that. It's the next one.

21 MR. HANNIS: Oh, I'm sorry.

22 Q. Your finger, your index finger, is extended through the trigger

23 housing, is it not, on your right hand?

24 A. I think my finger is next to the trigger, not on the trigger,

25 because the training that I completed before I became a member of my unit

Page 23089

1 included clear instructions and the drill that in the combat posture my

2 finger should always be close to the trigger, not on the trigger, and I

3 believe I followed that drill in this situation as well.

4 Q. Okay. And you told us about the second injured man. You said his

5 wound was in the arm, in his thigh, and there was blood all over his head,

6 right?

7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: I believe that misrepresents the testimony. If he

10 could cite to the precise testimony.

11 MR. HANNIS: Page 22976, line 10: "Nearby there was another

12 wounded person. His wound was in the arm and his thigh and there was

13 blood all over his head."

14 That's what it says in the transcript.

15 Q. That's what you said, isn't it?

16 A. I really cannot remember what I said yesterday, but I know that he

17 was wounded. He too was wounded rather seriously, but only slightly less

18 seriously than the first one.

19 MR. HANNIS: Let's put on the screen a photograph, P2628, just to

20 make sure who we're talking about.

21 Q. That's the second man you were referring to, right?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Can you point to us on that photograph, and the usher will help

24 you use a marker, if you can indicate where was the thigh wound that you

25 noticed.

Page 23090

1 A. I cannot show it to you here because it's not visible here because

2 this is a picture taken once this person had already been brought to our

3 improvised headquarters where the company commander was. So I cannot see

4 clearly where it was and I cannot show it to you.

5 Q. So you're saying it's on a part of his leg that's out of sight in

6 this photograph?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the arm wound, which arm was his wound in?

9 A. I really can't remember. It was many years ago. I believe it was

10 on the left arm.

11 Q. Which fortunately is not one that we can see in this photograph as

12 well, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Where's the blood that was all over his head? I don't see any in

15 this photograph. Do you?

16 A. You don't see the blood because it was in his hair and on his head

17 but the other side, on the back of his head.

18 Q. From all these bleeding wounds, we don't see any pool of blood on

19 the ground or the blanket around him, do we?

20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.

22 MR. IVETIC: I would object to this line of questioning. I think

23 that counsel's drawing conclusions that can be drawn different ways by

24 different people looking at this image. For one, we see items that could

25 be blood. I don't know, I'm not an expert. Maybe counsel is. If he is,

Page 23091

1 he should qualify himself as one for examining photographs and for

2 examining evidence of such matters. But I think it's really going into an

3 area that we're not able to handle.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: That's that ship sunk, Mr. Hannis.

5 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm not so --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's one of these objections that has

7 actually gone to the content of the evidence. In any event, I think it's

8 neither here nor there. I think the point Mr. Ivetic makes is right, but

9 I equally think that the witness should have an opportunity if he wishes

10 to say where he thinks there might be blood shown on the photograph.

11 Can you help us with that? Do you see any sign of any

12 accumulation or pool of blood in that photograph?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see. I believe those are

14 blood stains on the trousers, but you have to know that this person had

15 been carried some 600 metres from the site of the incident, as I said a

16 moment ago, to that improvised headquarters where my company commander was

17 waiting along with other members of the unit. The person on the blanket

18 was very seriously wounded but still compared to the first one it was a

19 shade less serious than the first one.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

22 Q. You told us that when these men were discovered, Mr. Markovic, I'm

23 reading from 22976 at line 22: "Mr. Markovic, our commander, took that

24 little bag from the man's shoulders. We thought it was one of their

25 commanding officers. He opened the bag and found inside a telephone and

Page 23092

1 then he found a notebook and some pens and some list of names."

2 What was the colour of that bag, do you recall?

3 A. First of all, I have to correct you. Mr. Markovic was not the

4 commander. He was the commanding officer of the reconnaissance squad that

5 was part of the 5th Platoon. As far as I can remember, I was several

6 metres away from that person. The bag was the colour of chocolate and it

7 looked like an officer's bag.

8 Q. And that bag was taken from the wounded person who we see on the

9 blanket near the vehicle wheel, right, in Exhibit 2628? Right, that's the

10 one who had the bag?

11 A. Yes, that person had a bag that was still hanging on his shoulder

12 at the moment when he was found by Markovic and another person

13 accompanying Markovic. That was Dejan Mihajlovic.

14 MR. HANNIS: Could we go back now on the screen at look again at

15 P2629.

16 Q. And for you, sir, that's the one where you're standing over the

17 other wounded man. What's that brown bag you have that you're carrying?

18 A. That brown bag is not really a regular bag. It's either a part of

19 the blanket that was really indispensable when it was cold and we had to

20 spend nights in the woods. We needed it in order not to freeze and it was

21 part of our regular set of equipment. Instead of the -- in addition to

22 the canvass sheet that I had in the rucksack on my back.

23 Q. Is that the blanket that was used to carry the other man back to

24 where your vehicle was located?

25 A. No, no, it's not that blanket. That blanket was found next to the

Page 23093

1 corpses we found in their trench.

2 Q. And that we see in the picture is not the bag that was taken from

3 the second wounded man?

4 A. Absolutely not.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that a bag that we see in the photograph?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not a bag or maybe it's a

7 bag containing a blanket or maybe the rolled blanket, but I don't think

8 it's a bag because I had nowhere to get a bag nor did I need one.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


11 Q. Well, the reason I ask the question is because I suggest to you,

12 sir, that's the bag that was taken from the second wounded man, isn't it?

13 A. I assert with full responsibility that it is not. That bag was

14 turned over to the deputy company commander, Mr. Velickovic, together with

15 all the effects found inside it.

16 Q. And it's your testimony that you never carried that bag or you

17 never had that bag in your possession during part of this event depicted

18 in these photographs; is that right?

19 A. I don't remember carrying that bag. I had too many other things

20 on my mind. I was thinking about carrying this wounded man and the combat

21 posture that I had to assume when I was protecting the people who were

22 carrying the wounded man.

23 Q. You don't want to remember carrying that bag because that messes

24 up the story you told us before when you said this was the first man you

25 saw, and if you've got the bag that was on the second man, that means what

Page 23094

1 you told us before is not correct. Isn't that true?

2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object at this point to the question.

3 He's answered it. There's no foundation for this question, there's no

4 evidence that this is a bag, there -- I mean, it's -- Mr. Hannis can pick

5 what he wants out of pictures. I think it's quite interesting that he did

6 not notice the -- well, something that I'll have in direct in the other

7 picture but I'd rather not be accused of leading the witness. But this is

8 really starting to go out of the bounds of a proper cross-examination

9 based upon the evidence that's been given.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE BONOMY: We're all satisfied this was a perfectly legitimate

12 question, so you may seek an answer, Mr. Hannis.


14 Q. Mr. Milenkovic, you just said you -- you said: "I don't remember

15 carrying that bag ..."

16 And I suggested to you that you don't want to remember carrying

17 that bag, although you did, and the problem it creates for you is that

18 means your earlier account of this being the first man you came upon is

19 not correct and that's why you don't want to remember carrying the bag,

20 right?

21 A. No, that's not correct. I say with full responsibility that the

22 bag found on the person together with all the effects, the notebook, et

23 cetera, was not carried by me.

24 Q. And are you aware that there have been allegations by other

25 members of the 37th Detachment that you shot and killed that man? Are you

Page 23095

1 aware that there's such allegations?

2 A. I don't know that, except that I heard from the war crimes

3 prosecutor in Belgrade the same thing and it's recorded in my statement.

4 But I believe there are other statements of other members of the

5 reconnaissance squad who had been to Belgrade and who had given statements

6 about that incident.

7 Q. As a matter of fact, you did shoot and kill him, didn't you?

8 A. With full responsibility, no.

9 Q. And the second man who we saw on the blanket back by the vehicle,

10 he was shot and killed by another member of your squad, was he not?

11 A. I don't know about that. I told you before -- may I continue?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I have already answered this question once before. Yesterday in

14 my testimony I said that our task was to bring that person over so that he

15 can be given medical assistance and so that he can be saved from imminent

16 death. We meant to turn him over to the company commander. The company

17 commander, in view of the fact that there was still sporadic fire going

18 on, ordered us to take up positions to create a circular defence, and we

19 the scouts did that. So that I don't know whether that person was killed

20 there or not. What I do know is that several hours later when it was

21 already dark, one of us went back there to fetch water or food, but I

22 don't think it was water because there was barely any in the truck. And

23 when that man came back to us, he told us that the wounded person lying

24 next to the truck was already dead.

25 Q. Isn't it true Dejan Mihajlovic killed that man we see in the

Page 23096

1 photograph by the truck after he'd been questioned by your commander,

2 Stojkovic?

3 A. I claim with full responsibility that Dejan Mihajlovic was in that

4 circular defence next to me and it's not possible that Dejan killed him.

5 Q. The photograph of the man we see --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, I take it we're just not going to

7 finish this witness today. If that's the position, that's got to be the

8 position. You are conscious that that's what we were trying --

9 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, I will stop in two more questions,

10 if I may.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: But I thought there was also a photograph to deal

12 with or is that --

13 MR. HANNIS: There is that additional photograph. You're right,

14 Your Honour, I forgot about that one. I don't --

15 MR. LUKIC: If I may interrupt only for one second.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: Regarding the transcript. In transcript we can see

18 line that the witness answered already died and in Serbian it's

19 distinction in between killed and died and he used term "died."

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you give me the line, please?

21 MR. LUKIC: Here we see already dead, so it doesn't clarify. It's

22 line 15, page 96, said, we received the message that he died.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Had died.

24 MR. LUKIC: Had died. But -- yeah. And all the time this witness

25 is using term "torbica." In Serbian it's a small bag, and the translation

Page 23097

1 we are getting is "bag." So that can create the confusion with the

2 witness and with the Prosecutor. That's all I had.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm certainly clear from yesterday's evidence that

4 it was a small bag.

5 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: There's no doubt that that was the position

7 yesterday.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.


11 Q. It's your position then, sir, that both of these men died from the

12 injuries that we see in these photographs and that no additional harm was

13 inflicted on them by you or any other members of the 37th Detachment after

14 these photographs were taken; is that your evidence?

15 A. Based on the appearance of that man as I was standing over him and

16 based on the injuries on him that I saw, I'm sure that he died from his

17 injuries. As for the other man lying next to the wheel of that truck, I

18 don't know whether he died of natural causes or he was killed. Because as

19 I told you, on orders of the company commander I was standing in that

20 circular defence defending the other people who were standing around the

21 truck during that incident.

22 Q. Was Honda in that circle of defence with you?

23 A. No. I'm telling you again, the complete reconnaissance squad, all

24 six of us, had taken up our positions in the circular defence.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 23098

1 A. Honda had remained down there next to the --

2 Q. So if that man was shot and killed he could have been killed by

3 Honda, as far as you know?

4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it's pure speculation and it's

5 speculation that is improper at this point in time and I must profess my

6 objection at this question.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You've established the fact, Mr. Hannis, that he

8 wasn't with the witness. There's really nothing more the witness can tell

9 us.

10 MR. HANNIS: You're right, Your Honour, but I do have a good-faith

11 basis for asking the question. We have evidence about that from a witness

12 in this case.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.

15 Your Honour, then the last thing I wanted to do was show him that

16 additional photograph, Exhibit P3094. If we could have that on the

17 screen.

18 Q. Do you recall being in an action in the area of Budakovo in 1999

19 during the war?

20 A. Yes, yes, I was.

21 Q. Do you see the photograph on the screen, is that not you in this

22 picture --

23 A. Absolutely, yes, it's me.

24 Q. And can you tell us who those other four individuals are in the

25 photograph?

Page 23099

1 A. To the right, the person to the right, is Mr. Zoran Markovic, the

2 reconnaissance squad leader; the person standing behind the tree with his

3 head sticking out is Mr. Bojan Ilic; the person in the front of the

4 picture next to the tree is Mr. Goran Velickovic.

5 Q. And behind him?

6 A. And the person behind him, I've already said, behind the tree

7 where you can see only his head, that's Mr. Bojan Ilic. And the person

8 leaning against Mr. Velickovic, I can't be certain who that is.

9 Q. And you recall the person taking this photograph was a Russian

10 named Demjan Bala?

11 A. Certainly not, no.

12 Q. Who took this photograph then?

13 A. I think, as he's not in the picture, it was Bojan Zlatkovic, known

14 as Sajko, who took the picture.

15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions

16 for this witness.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milenkovic, why was it that you joined the PJP?

20 A. Your Honours, I told you yesterday, it was an honour and a

21 pleasure to be part of a unit which in the village we all came from was

22 considered to be an honourable and elite unit. My desire to join the

23 reconnaissance of that unit stemmed from the fact that I was on very good

24 terms with the other members of the reconnaissance squad. For example,

25 the squad leader --

Page 23100

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you initially offer your services to become a

2 member of the PJP or were you selected without offering to become part of

3 the PJP?

4 A. The establishing of a PJP unit was done in 1993 and I was not a

5 member. I became a member only in 1997, after I had completed all the

6 moral characteristics I needed to have in order to become a member of that

7 unit. I said that I joined that unit in March 1997 I think it was, and by

8 your leave, Your Honour, one of the reasons I wanted to enter that squad

9 was that I wanted to be together with Mr. Markovic, as we had worked

10 previously in the same police station, resided in the same residential

11 building, our children were friends, our wives were friends, and we were

12 on visiting terms. We were very good friends. That's why I wanted to be

13 in that squad, and my wish was granted and I do not regret to this day

14 joining that squad.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 Re-examination, Mr. Ivetic.

17 MR. IVETIC: No questions for this witness, Your Honour, although

18 with the caveat that since Mr. Hannis was allowed to comment on what he

19 believed he saw in the picture, I submit that P2630 shows the trench at

20 the left corner of the picture that Mr. Hannis couldn't see.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

22 Can we see 2630 again, please. The question may have little

23 value, Mr. Ivetic. It's perhaps something that you ought to have asked a

24 question about if you wanted to get some indication from the witness.

25 MR. IVETIC: Well, I think my comment is just as baseless in terms

Page 23101

1 of evidence as Mr. Hannis's comment of what he sees or does not see in

2 pictures. That was my point. I did not intend to lead evidence. I think

3 the witness was rather clear in his testimony, and that's the evidence.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BONOMY: I had one other question which I think since we

6 just have a minute or so, I might ask you. You told us a number of times

7 about being instructed to strictly abide by the Geneva Conventions and

8 other laws of war. What did that actually mean to you?

9 A. It meant that we should adhere strictly to the principle and the

10 standpoints the commander or the squad leader told us to, which meant

11 taking care of prisoners of war and the civilian population and so on.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Anything arise from that for you, Mr. Ivetic?

13 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

15 Mr. Milenkovic, that completes your evidence. Thank you for

16 coming to the Tribunal to assist us. You can now leave the courtroom.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Don't get too comfortable, Mr. Vucurevic. It was

22 impossible to judge how long we would be with the previous witness. We've

23 exhausted the remainder of today's sitting time, so we have to conclude

24 our sitting at this stage, which means that as I indicated earlier you

25 will require to come back here on Monday, so that will be at 9.00 on

Page 23102

1 Monday morning in this courtroom.

2 The main reason, though, that we've brought you back into court is

3 to explain that there is an important rule that applies. Over the weekend

4 between now and coming back here, you must have no communication with

5 anyone at all about the evidence in this case, and that means any part of

6 the evidence of any witness or any material before the Court. You can

7 talk about whatever you like with whoever you like, as long as you have

8 absolutely no communication with anyone about the evidence.

9 Now could you please again leave the courtroom, you're free to

10 leave the building, and we'll see you again on Monday at 9.00.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

12 [The witness stands down].

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.35 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

15 February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.