Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24141

1 Wednesday, 12 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, your next witness.

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, our next witness is Mr. Vojnovic,

7 Milos.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 Mr. Vojnovic, good afternoon.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to

13 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

14 you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Lukic.

20 Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Before I start I have to inform Your Honours that this witness

23 has poor eyesight due to diabetes and we had to re-arrange his testimony

24 completely because he couldn't follow the documents and we changed a lot

25 of -- we made a lot of changes. So he has a statement and I think that

Page 24142

1 we owe Your Honours and the Prosecutor some corrections, and we received

2 an e-mail from Prosecutor, they complained about paragraphs 27, 28, and

3 29 from his statement.

4 Paragraph 27 they are right, it cannot be Exhibit Number 6D614,

5 but rather 6D787. In paragraph 28, the page was wrong, it's 648 instead

6 of 647, point is correct. Paragraph 29, this exhibit just has to be

7 removed, we don't have exhibit on this issue.

8 We also found another mistake in paragraph 33, this exhibit has

9 to be removed as well, it doesn't respond to this paragraph, it's 6D604.

10 We couldn't find proof for paragraph 48, so we would kindly ask Your

11 Honours to allow us to remove this paragraph from the statement of this

12 witness. And we -- there is a mistake in paragraph 52, the last one.

13 This was discovered by the witness. He warned me that the last sentence

14 should be: "When the war started these departments virtually ceased to

15 exist because the members of the RPO, reserve police departments, were VJ

16 and police," should be added, "reservists who were mobilised and attached

17 to military units and engaged as police reservists after declaration of a

18 state of war."

19 And that's it.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you should now start the examination and

21 we'll deal with these once you've presented the exhibit.

22 Mr. Hannis.

23 MR. HANNIS: Two things, Your Honour. One of them relates to

24 paragraph 28 where I understood Mr. Lukic to say that the reference

25 should be to 6D614, page 648.

Page 24143

1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

2 MR. HANNIS: But I could use some assistance on where that is in

3 the English translation. In e-court the English document is only 500 and

4 some pages and I don't know where to find page 648, item 366.

5 MR. LUKIC: We don't have it in English yet. I think we are

6 close to this page with the translation, but it's not uploaded yet.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: So not available yet, Mr. Hannis.

8 MR. HANNIS: And the second one is, Your Honour, in paragraph 27

9 I was told that reference to 6D614 should be changed to 6D787, but I

10 don't believe 6D787 was on the notification for this witness.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: No doubt that's because it was 6D614. You're

12 going to cope with that one, are you?

13 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'll do my best, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's get started, Mr. Lukic.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you for my learned

16 friend.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, good afternoon.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. As you could hear, we had some corrections in relation to your

23 statement. I will now commence the part of your testimony that is live,

24 and then we will go back to your statement which is Exhibit 6D1532.

25 MR. LUKIC: Actually, I need one instruction from Your Honours.

Page 24144

1 Should I ask the witness now about if he's accepting this corrected

2 statement or to deal with it afterwards?

3 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should ask him the usual questions you

4 ask about the statement and ask him if he heard the alterations being

5 made and whether these are appropriate, and then invite us to admit the

6 statement.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, we will, therefore, go back to your statement. As

11 you have heard, you and I discussed these amendments this morning,

12 especially the last paragraph, about the reservists. If you were to

13 testify today on this topic, would you provide the same statement as the

14 one that is provided here to the Court with all its amendments?

15 A. I don't have it before me. Can I take it out of my bag?

16 Q. Yes, you can.

17 A. Will you please let me know which page I should look at.

18 Q. First page 7, paragraph 27, all we changed here is the number of

19 the exhibit. These numbers mean nothing to you. There was a mistake and

20 we changed the number of the exhibit. It's not 6D614, rather, 6D787.

21 The only alteration that concerns you is in the last paragraph, 55,

22 because everything else relates to numbers. Paragraph 52 on the last

23 page, this is the paragraph where we changed some text, reservists of RPO

24 it says here were reservists of the army, and then we made a correction

25 saying that they were reservists of the army and police due to which they

Page 24145

1 were included in the units. And then we added that those units were also

2 of police; is that all right?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Can you now confirm that this statement is accurate and do you

5 accept it as your own?

6 A. I do.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we hereby tender

8 Mr. Vojnovic's statement as 6D1532.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, anything remaining?

10 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.

12 That shall be admitted, Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, can we now begin with your live

15 testimony?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us who told you that you were to become chief of SUP

18 in Prizren and were you given any reasons for that?

19 A. Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic told me that I was being sent to

20 Prizren to the post of chief of secretariat because the chief of that

21 particular secretariat was to retire.

22 Q. And who signed the decision appointing you and sending you there?

23 A. Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic.

24 Q. The decision sending you there, did it say that you were a member

25 of the MUP staff of the expanded MUP staff?

Page 24146

1 A. That decision on sending me there did not state that I was a

2 member of the expanded MUP staff.

3 Q. Did that decision also define your obligations in relation to the

4 MUP staff?

5 A. There was nothing in the decision concerning the MUP staff.

6 Q. Your predecessor, when handing the post over to you, did he

7 perhaps say that you were a member of the staff?

8 A. I failed to tell you that I was sent there -- actually, the

9 decision said that I was appointed as of the 1st of January; however, I

10 went to Prizren on the 11th of January with Zekavica, who was prior to me

11 chief of secretariat. He retired as of the 31st of December, 1998, the

12 previous year. We went there together and we worked together for two or

13 three days in Prizren. We toured all organizational units, we carried

14 out the hand-over of duty. He did not give me any instructions

15 concerning the MUP staff in Pristina.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we bring up P1505, please, in

17 e-court.

18 Q. Can you find that document in your binder, please, P1505.

19 A. I have found it.

20 Q. Did you receive this decision as part of the hand-over when you

21 became chief of SUP?

22 A. No, I did not receive this decision -- in fact, I never received

23 this decision.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see in e-court P1811 --

25 Q. Which is the next document in your binder. Do you see this

Page 24147

1 document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So the previous decision was the one on establishing the staff

4 dated 16th of June, 1998, and this decision is the decision on

5 establishment of the staff dated 31st of May, 1999. Were you aware at

6 the time that by way of this decision you were designated as a member of

7 the expanded MUP staff?

8 A. No, I wasn't aware of that nor did I ever receive this decision.

9 Q. Thank you. Now to go back to P1505, the previous document. Do

10 you see here that David Gajic is listed as deputy head of staff?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you were in Kosovo and Metohija, was David Gajic deputy head

13 of the staff?

14 A. I know David Gajic personally. I did not see him in Pristina and

15 I know that he was not head -- deputy head of the staff, naturally, while

16 I was in Prizren, that is.

17 Q. He was replaced by Misa Vilotic in the state security sector,

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. His full name is Milisav Vilotic, correct?

21 A. I know the last name, Vilotic.

22 Q. While you were in Kosovo and Metohija in 1999, did you snow that

23 Milisav Vilotic was deputy head of staff of MUP in Kosovo and Metohija?

24 A. I did not know that.

25 Q. Do you know who was deputy head of the staff from the 1st of

Page 24148

1 January until the 14th of June, 1999, when you left Kosovo?

2 A. Miroslav Mijatovic, a colonel from police administration - and I

3 think towards the end, sometime in May - he was replaced, that is to say

4 he returned to Belgrade and a man with a last name Bozovic, I believe his

5 first name was Dragan, was sent to replace him.

6 Q. We see here Milorad Lukovic listed as assistant head of staff,

7 that's the fourth name in the list of members. Did you ever know, did

8 you ever learn, directly or indirectly, that Milorad Lukovic, nicknamed

9 Legija, was a member of the MUP staff?

10 A. I did not know that Miroslav Lukovic was a member of the MUP

11 staff.

12 Q. The next name listed is Zivko Trajkovic. While you were in

13 Kosovo, did you ever hear that Zivko Trajkovic was a member of the MUP

14 staff?

15 A. I did not hear that Zivko Trajkovic was a member of the MUP

16 staff.

17 Q. Is it regulated anywhere, is it prescribed that you as chief of

18 Prizren SUP are responsible for your work to the head of the MUP staff?

19 A. I'm not aware of such a legal position. As far as I know, that

20 is not the case.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now bring up P1044.

22 Q. And that's in the previous binder, sir. This is a document of

23 the Ministry of the Interior, public security sector, dated 19th of

24 April, 1996.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 3 in B/C/S, item 5.

Page 24149

1 Q. What kind of obligation is set up by way of item 5 in relation to

2 SUPs in Kosovo and Metohija?

3 A. This document of the Ministry of the Interior envisages that SUPs

4 from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, when reporting MUP, need to

5 also report, or rather, send reports to the MUP staff in Pristina.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. In addition to this obligation, is there any other document or

10 regulation setting forth some other obligations for chiefs of SUP or any

11 heads of various professional departments within SUP in relation to the

12 staff?

13 A. As far as I know, no.

14 Q. Did you have a duty to seek any kind of an approval or consent

15 from the MUP staff in order to engage your own units or units that were

16 sent to Prizren SUP in order to carry out tasks in the territory covered

17 by your SUP?

18 A. Practically speaking, there was no need for me to contact staff

19 in relation to that.

20 Q. You as head of the Prizren secretariat, in order to do anything,

21 did you have to receive an order from the staff?

22 A. No, I did not have to receive any order from the staff. I mostly

23 organized work and tasks within the competence of MUP based on powers

24 prescribed by law, by legislation.

25 Q. Let us take an example. In order to arrest perpetrators of a

Page 24150

1 crime, be they policemen, civilians, or soldiers, did you have to wait

2 for an order from the staff?

3 A. No, I did not have to wait for an order from the staff because

4 these tasks are regulated by legislation, and I simply acted in

5 accordance with the law, that is to say the secretariat in Prizren acted

6 in accordance with the law.

7 Q. What about a policeman who comes across a perpetrator who catches

8 somebody committing a crime, does that policeman have to wait for an

9 order?

10 A. I have to tell you that that's quite a complex issue. All

11 authorised officials, including policemen, act in accordance with the

12 law. Based on what I know, unfortunately, there are over 200 regulations

13 in force mandating or setting forth some duties concerning policemen in

14 Serbia. So policemen simply acted in accordance with their legal

15 authorities. The Law on Internal Affairs sets forth that a policeman off

16 duty also has to act in accordance with the law in order to carry out his

17 duties. For example, violation of law and order in great extent and so

18 on and similar cases.

19 Q. Do you know that in the territory of your SUP there was an

20 antiterrorist activity carried out under the control of the staff?

21 A. No, I'm not aware. As for anti-terrorist activities, we in SUP

22 were in charge of that and PJPs.

23 Q. Let me now turn to the meetings at the staff in 1999. Would you

24 please turn to D1990 [as interpreted].

25 A. I have found it.

Page 24151

1 Q. Would you please read the heading.

2 A. "Minutes from the meeting held at the MUP staff in Pristina on

3 17th of February, 1999."

4 MR. LUKIC: Can we have this exhibit on the screen, please,

5 P1990 -- oh, it's there. Thanks.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Is this a minutes of a meeting of the MUP staff

7 or of a meeting held at the staff of the MUP?

8 A. These are minutes of a meeting held at the staff of the MUP, or

9 better yet it is a minutes of a collegium meeting -- a meeting of the

10 minister at the staff of the MUP.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vojnovic, would you read the heading, please,

12 where it says: "Minutes" and then what is immediately under that. Just

13 read it aloud, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Republic of Serbia, Ministry

15 of the Interior, staff of the ministry, the 17th of February, 1999,

16 Pristina.

17 "Minutes of a meeting held at the MUP staff in Pristina on the

18 17th of February, 1999."

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That's sufficient.

20 Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: So I think that we have discrepancy in English

22 translation of the document.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: It has been dealt with by the witness reading it.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: That was the reason for asking him to read it.

Page 24152

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Please read out the first paragraph, what attended the meeting?

3 A. The meeting was attended by: Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic;

4 public security department chief Colonel-General Vlastimir Djordjevic;

5 chief of the RDB, General Rade Markovic; Assistant Minister

6 Lieutenant-General Obrad Stevanovic; all members of the Pristina MUP

7 staff; Milisav Vilotic, coordinator of the RDB in contacts -- for KiM;

8 all chiefs of SUPs in KiM and SAJ detachment commanders and the state

9 security department centre chiefs in Kosovo and Metohija.

10 Q. It says here "all members of the MUP staff in Pristina." After

11 that we see the name of Milosav Vilotic. What conclusion do you draw

12 from that, that Milosav Vilotic was a member of the MUP staff in

13 Pristina; in that case would his name have been stated here separately?

14 A. I don't think so. It says here all MUP staff members in

15 Pristina, then separately we see Milosav Vilotic as the coordinator for

16 the RDB in Kosovo and Metohija.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vojnovic, if a person were to read these

18 minutes and want to know the identities of the members of the Pristina

19 MUP staff, as it says, where would that person go to find the identities

20 of the Pristina MUP staff?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably I would guess at the head

22 of the staff, he was the best person to know who the members of his staff

23 were. This is my interpretation since I don't see that his deputy is

24 mentioned anywhere.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Why would you not invite such a person to go and

Page 24153

1 read the decision establishing the MUP staff?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I did not understand.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if you want to find out the identity of the

4 persons who form any unit of the ministry, whether it be an

5 organizational unit or an ancillary unit, would you not normally go to

6 the decision establishing that body to find out who its members are?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not so sure about it since I

8 don't think it was very up-to-date at the time; however, I do agree with

9 you that that would be the best course.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

11 Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Further down in the text we see that apart from

14 all of the staff members mentioned we see the chiefs of all SUPs in the

15 territory of Kosovo and Metohija. Reading the document would you say

16 that chiefs of SUPs were members of the staff?

17 A. In my view and judging by the text, that would not be my

18 conclusion, they would not be members of the Pristina MUP staff.

19 Q. It concludes with CRDB chiefs in KiM. The question is the same:

20 When reading this paragraph would you say that state security sector

21 centre chiefs in Kosovo and Metohija were members of the staff?

22 A. Members of the CRDB in KiM were not members of the staff, at

23 least not according to what I know.

24 Q. Please go to page 3 of the document now. It says, and it's

25 easier for me to read than it is for you: "Carefully approach and engage

Page 24154

1 volunteers and conduct that through the reserve forces of the police when

2 we deem that to be necessary."

3 The date in question is the 17th of February, 1999. These words

4 are attributed to Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic. First of all, I'd like

5 to ask you the following: In your area, that is, in the area of Prizren

6 SUP, were there any volunteers with the police forces?

7 A. In Prizren SUP there were no volunteers.

8 Q. The minister says: "... when we deem that to be necessary."

9 I realize that I'm asking you to interpret, but what is your

10 interpretation of that phrase when we were preparing ourselves for your

11 testimony, who did you think the minister had in mind?

12 A. My conclusion of course was that he meant himself and the leaders

13 from the MUP who attended the meeting at the staff.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: There may be another interpretation issue here.

15 Could you please read aloud the sentence to which your attention has been

16 drawn, the one referring to volunteers.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Approach with a degree of

18 sensitivity and engage volunteers linking their engagement through the

19 reserve police forces when we deem that to be necessary."

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Cvetic, who was one of the witnesses of the

24 Prosecution, in his testimony said that Sreten Lukic said that; however,

25 that he uttered those words precisely one month later, which was the 17th

Page 24155

1 of March, 1999. Do you recall or did you attend any meetings at the

2 staff at which you heard Sreten Lukic saying this or something like this?

3 A. I cannot recall the 17th of March precisely. Concerning the

4 question you put, perhaps it would help for me to see a minutes, if it

5 was a meeting at the MUP staff where chiefs were in attendance, then I

6 might be able to interpret. However, I didn't hear of such a thing, not

7 on the 17th of March, but rather I never heard Sreten Lukic saying

8 anything like it at all or any of the meetings I attended. That is all I

9 can say.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. I think -- well, now it sort of rings a bell. Cvetic was the

12 chief in Kosovska Mitrovica I think. I think he had certain problems. I

13 think he was removed, although I'm not sure.

14 Q. Thank you. Let us go to page 1 of the document, please, towards

15 the bottom of the page it says: "The staff planned to carry out, once

16 ordered, three mopping-up operations in the areas of Podujevo,

17 Dragobilje, and Drenica to clear them of terrorists ..."

18 Dragobilje was within your area, was it not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is your understanding of this sentence, that the MUP make

21 plans for this action?

22 A. My understanding was that we were to do that in the following

23 period. As for Dragobilje, I am certain of it since I had data at my

24 disposal that in that part not only Dragobilje, as we call it nowadays,

25 but there are a number of settlements there. In that area a great many

Page 24156

1 of Siptar terrorists were there, and of course they didn't stay put, they

2 committed crimes. It was my understanding that we who were in charge of

3 that were supposed to plan and take measures, activities, aimed at

4 preventing such terrorist acts.

5 Q. Thank you. Let us move to P1989. It is a meeting with the

6 various police leaders in Kosovo and Metohija. The heading says that, or

7 rather, in the first paragraph it says that the meeting was held with the

8 ministry staff. Please read out the first paragraph.

9 A. "On the 4th of April, 1999, beginning at 900 hours, a meeting

10 was held with the chiefs of secretariats in the territory of the

11 autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija and detachment commanders of

12 the PJP and SAJ as well as JSO with the following agenda."

13 Q. Thank you. Can we see from this whether the meeting was attended

14 by any MUP staff members if we read the first and the third paragraph,

15 can we see if there was anyone present from the MUP staff?

16 A. We can see here that only General Sreten Lukic was there on

17 behalf of the staff.

18 Q. Was this a meeting of the MUP staff then?

19 A. No, it was a meeting of the chiefs of SUPs in the area of the

20 autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija, as well as detachment

21 commanders of the PJP, SAJ, and JSO.

22 Q. Who was the most senior official at this meeting according to

23 rank and position?

24 A. As far as I can tell, Lieutenant-General Obrad Stevanovic.

25 Q. When preparing you for the testimony, we went through the entire

Page 24157

1 document. I wanted to ask you the following. Since the chiefs of SUPs

2 briefed on the situation in their respective areas, can you tell us

3 whether there were some chiefs who did not report on any crime

4 perpetrators apprehended during the previous period. What can we see

5 from these minutes?

6 A. Yes. To go back to what I said a minute ago, in my assessment

7 this is what contributed to Cvetic being removed from the position of the

8 chief of SUP in Kosovska Mitrovica. Of course there must have been other

9 reasons as well; however, I am not familiar with those.

10 Q. Why are you mentioning Cvetic in relation to my previous question

11 when I asked you whether there were any chiefs who had no arrested

12 persons in their territory?

13 A. Well, I'm mentioning him because it was my impression that he was

14 dissatisfied with such a decision. So perhaps that was one more reason

15 for him to act in that way. I am not fully certain, but as far as I

16 remember he was not only removed from office but I think that he also

17 left MUP. I'm not certain of that.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. I can't put leading questions to you.

19 When this briefing was held, did Ljubinko Cvetic report on the number of

20 the arrested persons in the territory of his secretariat of Kosovska

21 Mitrovica?

22 A. Well, all of us briefed on that, but he had nothing to brief on,

23 nothing to report, because he had none, as far as I know, nothing was

24 recorded and it seemed somewhat irresponsible.

25 Q. Thank you. Would you now turn to page 3. And read the last

Page 24158

1 sentence in this page, the last asterisk.

2 A. "Mandatory reporting of chief of secretariats and unit

3 commanders to staff."

4 Q. Do you remember what triggered this request? This is now the 4th

5 of April, 1999.

6 A. NATO bombing was already underway. The war was on. It was very

7 difficult to report to the staff, to get in contact with them. Some

8 officers and some heads probably failed to report, so this was a good

9 occasion for us to get in touch to see that we were all alive and fine.

10 I think that in addition to such -- despite such an order, I was not in

11 the position to fully abide by it in Prizren, not because I didn't want

12 to but because very seldom we had the conditions necessary for this. I

13 think, but I'm not fully certain, that at the time the Pristina SUP, the

14 building of the Pristina SUP, had already been bombed. I'm not sure, it

15 was on the 3rd or 4th or 5th, and then following that everything became

16 much more difficult in terms of communications, radio contact and so on.

17 Q. Are you aware that they were mandatory dispatches containing

18 orders arriving from the ministry at the time?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. In item 2 it says: "Upcoming tasks." By uttering these words,

21 by saying so, what is it that Sreten Lukic is actually doing?

22 A. He's practically reminding us of our duties, both legal ones and

23 those contained in dispatches of the minister or chief of a sector.

24 Q. Now, fourth asterisk from the bottom, would you please read it on

25 that same page.

Page 24159

1 A. "Undertake strict measures in relation to paramilitary units."

2 Q. What does this mean to undertake strict or vigorous measures?

3 A. To fully abide by the law and prevent any such phenomenon.

4 However, I have to tell you that the Prizren SUP did not have such

5 problems, at least I had no such information.

6 Q. Did such orders also arrive from the chief of the public security

7 sector?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, can we please turn to 6D269.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Were you aware, Mr. Vojnovic, of where the

11 problems with paramilitary units had arisen?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I can't

13 remember just now whether there were any in the territory of Kosovo and

14 Metohija, but when paramilitary units were mentioned I know that such

15 problems existed in other parts of the former Yugoslavia. I wouldn't

16 like to burden you with that now, but Bosnia and the like.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: In 1999?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, during the events in those

19 areas.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, please concentrate on my question.

21 I'm anxious to know which areas had a problem with paramilitaries in

22 Kosovo to give rise to this particular provision in the document.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not have such

24 information and I can confirm that by telling you that I arrived on the

25 11th of January, 1999, and stayed there until the 14th of June. And as a

Page 24160

1 person in charge of Prizren I can tell you that I did not have such

2 problems. I am more referring to, or rather, I think that this order,

3 "nalog," had a preventive aim, at least that's how I took it.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. [Interpretation] So now we're dealing with 6D269 which is a

8 dispatch, signed by chief of public security sector. Would you please

9 turn to page 2, item 7, and read it out to us. Would you be able to read

10 this?

11 A. "By way of intensified operative work and by undertaking other

12 measures and actions, conduct all necessary checks, record and put under

13 control voluntary units -- paramilitary units and volunteers and their

14 members."

15 Q. When it says here "compile records," what does it actually mean,

16 record or compile records? Who else is recorded?

17 A. In the secretariats of the interior, or rather, in the Ministry

18 of the Interior there is an instruction on how records are kept in police

19 stations. And by way of that instruction, the minister specified exactly

20 what records need to be kept and what needs to be recorded, starting from

21 daily chronology and recording thereof to various events. Let me just

22 give you an example of a record. For example, a diary or a log-book of

23 the duty service at the police station, and there are many records of

24 this nature.

25 Q. Are perpetrators of crime recorded or listed as well?

Page 24161

1 A. All events of importance, all persons who were apprehended, as we

2 say in police, and by this I mean perpetrators of crimes, of

3 misdemeanours, people who are listed as wanted, and so on, all of that is

4 recorded.

5 Q. Now, please turn to 6D238. We need item 5 on page 2. It's

6 difficult to read this and I will read it, therefore.

7 A. I can't read this.

8 Q. I will read it. Item 5 reads: "Record or list and put under

9 control volunteers and paramilitary units and their members in order for

10 them to be possibly engaged."

11 What is the meaning of this? Was it intended that they be

12 recorded and engaged or was there another meaning behind this?

13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object to the leading form of this.

14 I think he could have stopped with his first question without going on

15 and hinting at the answer.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that must be true, Mr. Lukic. Could we

17 not just confine you to the first part of the question.

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I can. I can even make it shorter. Thank you.

19 Q. [Interpretation] What is the essence of this text? How do you

20 understand this?

21 A. As I have already said, this is how I understood this, namely,

22 that in accordance with the instruction we were to keep accurate records

23 of all sorts when it comes to these persons who are reporting to our

24 units voluntarily. To tell you the truth, I did not have such cases and

25 I did not pay any special attention to this provision. Perhaps the

Page 24162

1 author of this provision thought that if, God forbid, such people should

2 appear, we may include them. However, we did not have such cases in the

3 territory of the Prizren SUP.

4 Q. On the first page we can see that this dispatch was sent to all

5 SUPs, 1 through 33. What does this mean? To what territory did this

6 dispatch apply?

7 A. Yes, I can see that now. This is the dispatch of the minister,

8 Vlajko Stojiljkovic, and he sent it to all secretariats, and there were a

9 total of 33 of them in the territory of the entire state.

10 Q. Now, P1989, please. Now, these are the minutes from the meeting

11 with senior officials of the police. This is dated 4th of April, 1999.

12 We need page 3. We need sixth asterisk from the bottom or maybe the

13 fifth -- or from the top. It reads: "Ammunition and MES ..."

14 What is MES, please? Would you please read the whole sentence?

15 A. I think that MES stands for mines and explosives.

16 "Ammunition and MES to be used rationally and commanders of RPO

17 are to be reminded of that."

18 Q. This is the 4th of April, 1999, and commanders of RPOs are

19 mentioned here. What is your interpretation of this sentence?

20 A. Before giving you a direct answer, I have to say that reserve

21 police squads or RPOs were disbanded sometime in mid-March just before

22 the war began. And what we explained in the statement that was given was

23 meant to say that members of these reserve police squads or RPOs were

24 mostly mobilised. Some of them joined the Army of Yugoslavia because

25 that was their wartime assignment and some of them went to MUP because

Page 24163

1 this is where they had again wartime assignments in reserve forces. Most

2 likely this here implied that a small number of members of RPOs remained

3 because I'm not sure that all of them were mobilised for a number of

4 reasons, one of the reasons being that perhaps they were not fit for

5 military service, they were not considered as potential conscripts, and

6 the other reason being that it was difficult to do all that under the

7 circumstances at the time.

8 Q. All right. Could you now please go to the following page of that

9 document --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, before you do, let's try to be rational

11 about this, Mr. Vojnovic. You say that the reservists -- sorry, the

12 reserve police units had been disbanded by this time?

13 MR. LUKIC: Reserve police detachments I think that we use in

14 this trial for this formation.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we used -- units was being used yesterday.

16 We know what it means. You say that these reserve police groupings were

17 disbanded in March?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, the question is: Why in April is Mr. Lukic

20 telling the RPO commanders or asking for them to be told that ammunition

21 and mines and explosives have to be used very rationally?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've said, most likely General

23 Lukic thought or had information that not all members of RPOs had been

24 mobilised. As regards the use of ammunition and mines and explosives, it

25 was our position at the secretariats and with the leadership of the MUP

Page 24164

1 to use those rationally. At the beginning of the war there were some

2 people wearing uniforms, although they were not supposed to. They had

3 their own reasons, maybe they liked it. As the chief of SUP, I was

4 ordered not to wear a uniform.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You've lost me now. What has the wearing of a

6 uniform got to do with the rational use of ammunition?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the same meeting I think

8 uniforms were discussed, or rather, the wearing of uniforms by people who

9 had no right to --

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's concentrate on the ammunition and the

11 mines and the explosives. Either the RPOs were disbanded or they

12 weren't; now, which is it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth is that they had been

14 disbanded by way of mobilisation.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: So you just don't understand this instruction at

16 all; is that your position?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to explain and to be

18 clear.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: We don't want you to speculate. We want you to

20 tell us what you know as a matter of fact.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no information whether they

22 had any mines or explosives; however, I do know that they had infantry

23 weapons as well as combat kits of ammunition.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: And when you say "they," you're referring to

25 people who had not been mobilised?

Page 24165

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean all members of RPOs when

2 they were being established.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Did you go to the last, fourth, page of this

7 document? The seventh bullet from the top, command and control. Please

8 read it out loud and tell us what it means. This is attributed to Obrad

9 Stevanovic, assistant minister.

10 A. In this sentence --

11 Q. Please read it out.

12 A. "Control and command of units in the area of a secretariat is

13 done by the chiefs. In the area of the secretariat we had the reserve

14 police forces within the secretariat" --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- "the police forces, regular

17 police forces, as well as the PJP within the secretariat in Prizren and

18 sent units. These are the units he had in mind when conducting regular

19 tasks and assignments. Those assignments were within the purview of the

20 MUP and they came by way of daily assignments of the secretariat."

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In order to be clear about this, did he have in mind the

23 engagement of units in combat operations?

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I object. That calls for speculation

25 on the part of this witness. How can he know what the minister had in

Page 24166

1 mind?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Let us go to P1996, please. It is the 7th of May, 1999. In the

7 heading we have the ministry staff. Please read out the title.

8 A. "Minutes of a meeting held at the MUP staff of Kosovo and

9 Metohija in Pristina on the 7th of May, 1999, which began at 1100 hours."

10 Q. Can you see on the front page how many people from the staff

11 attended the meeting?

12 A. As far as I can see, it was only General Lukic -- no, sorry.

13 Under number 1, assistant MUP staff head, Colonel Stevanovic [as

14 interpreted]; and Blagojevic Tomislav as well as Pesic Blagoje,

15 assistants.

16 Q. Please read out --

17 MR. LUKIC: It's page 26, line 12, it says Colonel Stevanovic,

18 should be Colonel Mijatovic. It would cause a great confusion if we

19 leave it this way.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second.

21 Yes, thank you.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Please read out paragraph 2 as well as 3, in the course of work,

24 as well as items 1 and 2.

25 A. "In the course of the meeting MUP generals, the MUP of Serbia,

Page 24167

1 that is, participated. Lieutenant-Colonel Stevanovic, Obrad, who's

2 assistant minister; and under 2, chief of the MUP UKP Major-General

3 Dragan Ilic, with his associates: Chief of the KTC, Vladimir Aleksic and

4 head of the department in the UKP Sinisa Spanovic."

5 Q. Please tell us what KTC means.

6 A. Crime forensic centre, which fell under the -- under the MUP. It

7 was one of the organizational units of the MUP.

8 Q. Page 7 of the document, please. General Dragan Ilic is recorded

9 there as taking part -- excuse me, it is page 8. In preparing you for

10 the testimony we read what General Ilic had said. Do you recall from

11 that time, and what was your understanding of General Dragan Ilic's stay

12 in Kosovo and Metohija with his associates around the 7th of May, 1999?

13 A. General Ilic was the chief of the crime police administration at

14 the seat of the ministry. He is the leader of one of the most important

15 or maybe the most important professional areas dealing with crime. I

16 believe before this meeting with us he had another meeting with heads of

17 crime police departments at the seat of the secretariat as territorial

18 MUP units, whereby they discussed problems that had to do with crime and

19 other issues they had.

20 Q. In one of the items he says: "In order to clear the terrain a

21 plan had been devised distributed to all secretariats and crime police

22 departments defining tasks."

23 Who created that plan in your understanding?

24 A. In my understanding the plan of sanitization was made by the

25 administration in charge of crime police.

Page 24168

1 Q. Thank you. In page 6 you are mentioned as taking part in the

2 discussion in item 5. Item 5, the sixth bullet from the top, you say:

3 "61 persons were taken before competent courts; however, disproportionate

4 sentences have been handed down. Out of ten judgements, nine were

5 probation and one person was acquitted."

6 I wanted to ask you this: Why did you discuss this issue at that

7 very meeting?

8 A. I raised this issue because I had occasion to mention that

9 problem in front of the most important person in the domain of fighting

10 crime. Of course I wished that there were less such cases and I was

11 hoping that in cooperation with the Ministry of Justice he would deal or

12 at least reduce the number of such occurrences.

13 Q. In this document go to page 9, please. We need the first bullet

14 on page 9. Here it says that Sreten Lukic said: "The number of 27

15 crimes of murder seems small, since there is information that there were

16 more on-site investigations that had been carried out and that there were

17 more criminal reports that had been submitted for those crimes."

18 MR. LUKIC: It's page 10 in the English version.

19 Q. [Interpretation] What was your understanding of these words

20 uttered by Sreten Lukic?

21 A. My understanding was that he wanted to remind us of our

22 obligation to keep orderly files and registers. It seems that the

23 registers on the number of crimes did not tally, or rather, were not

24 up-to-date in terms of the number of crimes and the number of on-site

25 investigations and criminal reports submitted to the prosecutor.

Page 24169

1 Q. Thank you. Two bullets down it says: "In cases of arson and

2 murder, do not wait; the suspects must be handed over immediately to the

3 competent judge with a criminal report and you must ask for a sentence to

4 be pronounced immediately. These sorts of problems have still not been

5 cleared up, especially in Kosovo Polje and Podujevo, as well as Prizren

6 and Djakovica, while Gnjilane seems to have resolved certain problems."

7 What was the thrust of this part of Sreten Lukic's presentation?

8 What was your understanding of it?

9 A. In my understanding, in a way he wanted to draw our attention to

10 how we should conduct our work. In his presentation he cited the good

11 example of Gnjilane.

12 Q. Page 10, please, paragraph 3 -- I believe we'll have to resume

13 after the break. It is time I think.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this your last reference to this document?

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just finish with this document and then

17 we'll break.

18 MR. LUKIC: Okay.

19 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 3, the second bullet point, these

20 should be the words of Sreten Lukic, who says: "I mention in particular

21 that in the work of OPG, the chief of SUP gives permission for certain

22 actions and informs the head of staff."

23 What was your understanding of Sreten Lukic's words?

24 A. First and foremost, members of the OPG were regular forces of the

25 secretariat and of the PJP. It was about a dozen or ten policemen who

Page 24170

1 were trained to carry out the more difficult tasks and assignments, and

2 in my assessment and understanding, General Lukic was concerned about the

3 fate of those people. He didn't want to see any harm come to them.

4 Q. Did the staff command and use OPGs?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. I think it is time for the break.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

8 Mr. Vojnovic, we have to have a break at this stage, that will be

9 for 20 minutes; while we have that break, could you leave the courtroom,

10 please, with the usher.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at five minutes past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Judge Nosworthy is again unwell, and we will

16 continue in her absence. Later in the final session Judge Chowhan will

17 not be with us because of urgent personal reasons, again we will

18 continue. We consider it to be in the interests of justice that we

19 continue in the absence of the two Judges, who will have a chance to read

20 the transcript and will miss hopefully only a short part of the trial.

21 [The witness takes the stand]

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Can we continue?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24171

1 Q. I said that the last item I was going to ask you from document

2 P1996, but that was the last one and now I'm going to ask you something

3 else. In the next bullet it says: "Establish urgently control of police

4 wearing uniforms. Uniforms may only be worn by members of the police

5 with a P status and the reserve police when they are engaged."

6 What does this P status mean?

7 A. Uniformed policemen or police, short.

8 Q. Did you as members of SUP fall into that category?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. "Green uniform is worn only in anti-terrorist actions. All other

11 members who are not entitled to wear uniform, they need to return their

12 uniforms in order to work in civilian clothes starting from chief of SUP

13 down to the lowest rank of employees."

14 Were there policemen who wore a blue camouflage uniform in combat

15 activities in 1999?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you something about

18 anti-terrorist activities before the war. In the territory of your SUP

19 we used to refer to these actions as anti-terrorist actions before the

20 war and you corrected me by saying that those were anti-terrorist

21 activities. Tell me, please, why do you think that it's more accurate to

22 say "anti-terrorist activity"?

23 A. In the police sense of the word, when it comes to terrorists,

24 they are considered as perpetrators of crimes because these are citizens,

25 nationals, of the Republic of Serbia. And in that sense the police has

Page 24172

1 an obligation to prevent commission of such crimes through a number of

2 measures or through a number of activities. For example, by detecting,

3 apprehending, detaining, taking in to see competent authorities, and so

4 on.

5 Q. Therefore, in the territory of your SUP were any anti-terrorist

6 activities carried out before the beginning of bombing; and if so, which?

7 A. Practically speaking, in 1999 when I arrived, as far as I

8 remember, sometime in March we had a number of anti-terrorist activities.

9 As the beginning of bombing approached we used to call it the D-Day, the

10 security situation became more complex, especially in the areas that were

11 of interest due to security reasons, such as populated areas between

12 Prizren municipality and those of Orahovac and Suva Reka. And then in

13 the villages above Prizren travelling towards Brezovica mount, such as

14 Jeskovo, Kabas, and so on.

15 Q. Did members of the Army of Yugoslavia and PJP sometimes stop by

16 your office?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was planning and coordination carried out in your office between

19 the commander of 549th Brigade of the Army of Yugoslavia and commander of

20 the 37th Detachment of PJP and commander of your company?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Going back slightly, were members of the PJP from

23 your area trained in the provisions of international humanitarian law?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it comes to the curriculum for

25 training of PJP I truly can't say anything because I wasn't involved in

Page 24173

1 it. While I was in the Prizren secretariat, I don't have any information

2 about them being trained; however, if this is not too extensive I can

3 tell you that I personally completed a seminar in the International Red

4 Cross Committee in Serbia on the topic of humanitarian law and so on.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: And what sort of circumstances were envisaged in

6 which you would need to apply international humanitarian law?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly state of war.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: With whom?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, the reference is to

10 NATO forces.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: So the only reason you're aware of for training in

12 international humanitarian law is for the engagement with NATO?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you understood me

14 well. International Committee of Red Cross, in agreement with the

15 Ministry of the Interior, organized a seminar on the topic with a number

16 of senior officials from MUP secretariat and teachers teaching at police

17 schools.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: But what I want to be clear on is that had nothing

19 to do with your treatment of Albanian terrorists; it was to do with

20 potential treatment of NATO protagonists?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time when I attended

22 training, it wasn't related or I didn't understand it to be related

23 either to members of the Albanian minority or members of NATO forces.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 24174

1 Q. Does police use laws of war in its work or laws in force in its

2 state?

3 A. In accordance with the existing regulations, police carries out

4 regular duties and tasks from the competence of MUP. Regular duties and

5 tasks from the competence of MUP are regulated by the current legislation

6 of the state, legislation and regulations.

7 Q. We spoke about actions carried out in your jurisdiction before

8 the war. Did you ever see a plan for engaging police units, for example,

9 the 37th Detachment and your company, in the two actions that you

10 mentioned, in Jeskovo and Kabas?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. Did you participate in drafting of the plan?

13 A. I didn't.

14 Q. Did you inform anyone about these two actions?

15 A. I was duty-bound, in accordance with the instruction on mandatory

16 information, to inform the MUP and the MUP staff on a 24-hour basis and I

17 did so. I think that at the time when there was activity aimed at

18 preventing terrorist action in Jeskovo and Kabas, we also had a mission

19 of observers there; and we invariably informed them of all complex

20 activities related to anti-terrorist activities regularly and it was

21 mostly myself who did that.

22 Q. Do you remember whether representatives of KVM had any complaints

23 about how these two actions were carried out?

24 A. As far as I was able to communicate with the representative of

25 the mission of observers, there were no complaints. I can tell you that

Page 24175

1 we carried out an on-site investigation together.

2 Q. Do you remember whether during that on-site investigation,

3 whether there were any dead bodies found of people who were killed?

4 A. If you're referring to Jeskovo, I think that we had information

5 to the effect that there was a camp, an Albanian camp, where they trained

6 Albanian terrorists. And one of the reasons for organizing that activity

7 was to detain members of that anti-terrorist group. Naturally, that was

8 not the only reason for organizing it. We also had information to the

9 effect that they moved out residents of several Albanian villages. There

10 were people who were killed, and I couldn't really give you a number. It

11 was recorded, people were prosecuted, and you can verify this

12 information.

13 Q. Thank you. Was anybody's approval required in order for MUP

14 units to be used? I'm referring to PJP detachment and your company.

15 A. Not to my knowledge.

16 Q. When PJP detachments were sent to Kosovo and Metohija, was their

17 role known in advance?

18 A. Yes, their role was known, and practically by mere fact that they

19 were recruited or mobilised, their task was made clear to them.

20 Q. And what was their task?

21 A. Based on my understanding, they had several tasks. One of them

22 was to carry out regular duties and tasks in the territory of the MUP

23 where they were sent together with other people working in that MUP in

24 accordance with the daily schedule of work. In case of some large-scale

25 activities or where the entire establishment group was sent, they carried

Page 24176

1 out various tasks aimed at prevention of terrorist acts.

2 Q. Was there any need to issue some special sorts of order to engage

3 PJP units prior to each individual action?

4 A. As far as I know, there was no need to do that; however, the PJP

5 company of the Prizren SUP needed to get in touch with its command, which

6 was I think located in Pristina.

7 Q. Could you please be more specific about this command located in

8 Pristina?

9 A. That's the intervention brigade of PJP in Pristina.

10 Q. Do you know the number of the brigade? If you don't know, that's

11 fine.

12 A. I think it was 127th or 124th, but I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you see any special map relating to one of these

14 two activities which only had the tasks of the police marked on it?

15 A. Before the activities were carried out, I would receive a map

16 normally from the commander of the PJP company from Prizren or from the

17 commander of the PJP detachment, Colonel Mitrovic. However, what this

18 map meant for me was that I could potentially assist my company and

19 naturally others if needed. So I didn't see that map as some sort of a

20 combat map because I wasn't qualified for that sort of thing.

21 Q. What kind of a map did you receive, do you know?

22 A. It was on A4 format, hard copy, grey colour.

23 Q. Does it have a name, that sort of a map that you would normally

24 receive?

25 A. Right now it escapes me, truly.

Page 24177

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I clarify the distinction with what you dealt

2 with earlier. You were earlier asked if you ever saw a plan for engaging

3 police units, for example, the 37th Detachment and your company in the

4 two actions that you mentioned in Jeskovo and Kabas, and you did that you

5 did not see such a plan. Are we now talking about a different type of

6 plan?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said that I saw no plan, I

8 was referring to written plans, because together with the map I received

9 nothing else. I would receive just a map.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. That's what I asked you, about the name of the map and what it

13 had marked on it, were there any circles or what was there?

14 A. I can't remember right now. This map was, or rather, there were

15 some marks marking certain locations. If I can explain, I can explain

16 how I understood it, but I can't remember the exact name of the map. For

17 example, if I was told that in a certain location there was a wounded

18 person, then it was easy for me to send assistance.

19 Q. Was the map coded?

20 A. Yes, it was. It was the coded map. I apologise.

21 Q. If I may have a moment.

22 [Defence counsel confer]

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us see P2015 in e-court now,

24 please.

25 Q. Do you have 2015 in your binder?

Page 24178

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Did you see the order at the time?

3 A. I did not.

4 Q. Did you know that as of the 25th of March, 1999, there was an

5 action carried out in the area of Orahovac and Suva Reka?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There were anti-terrorist activities, were there not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who notified you of that action, do you remember?

10 A. I cannot tell you exactly. They didn't need to inform me, since

11 almost daily General Delic, myself, the commander of the 37th Detachment

12 saw each other and we spent time together. There were no secrets among

13 us, at least I think. Daily we talked, discussing this and other topics.

14 Q. Do you know who made the plan of this action?

15 A. I do now, since it is mentioned here; however, I had no occasion

16 to see that before and I wasn't informed.

17 Q. Did you participate in the coordination between Commander Delic

18 and MUP officials who participated in the planning of this action?

19 A. It is difficult for me to grasp the concept of coordination. If

20 I was there, they would never excuse themselves. They didn't hide any of

21 their conversations from me; however, I did not participate in the

22 creation of this plan. I didn't decide on when activities were to be

23 undertaken. And as the head of secretariat I wasn't present in the

24 territory where these units carried out those activities at that time of

25 course.

Page 24179

1 Q. P1981, please. We see this order of the 549th Motorised Brigade

2 dated the 23rd of March, 1999.

3 A. I cannot find it.

4 Q. You can see it on the screen in front of you, if you can follow.

5 A. I can see it.

6 Q. Do you remember concerning this action whether coordination was

7 planned and carried out in your presence, in your office?

8 A. As I said, it wasn't carried out in my office. Mostly we met in

9 the barracks, within the perimeter of the barracks in Prizren at the PJP

10 commander's office, Mr. Mitrovic. It would usually take place in the

11 afternoon. We were on such good terms that, practically speaking, we

12 didn't hold formal meetings, strictly speaking.

13 Q. What did you discuss when you were together?

14 A. Of course we discussed the activities of members of the Siptar

15 terrorist forces. We also discussed, of course, our duties and

16 obligations concerning the carrying out of joint patrols, joint

17 check-points. We discussed those taken into custody and other things. I

18 cannot recall all of them. We discussed problems in units, the

19 obligations of the secretariat in terms of logistics, its obligations

20 concerning conscripts who failed to respond to draft calls and similar

21 things.

22 Q. Based on this document of the 549th Brigade we can see that your

23 PJP company participated as well. I want to ask you again what sort of

24 uniform was worn by the members of your PJP company?

25 A. Green uniforms -- excuse me, excuse me, blue uniforms.

Page 24180

1 Q. Members of your company green or camouflage green, members of

2 your PJP company when going into combat?

3 A. They wore blue camouflage uniforms.

4 Q. In combat activities in 1999?

5 A. Let's take it slowly. I need some time to focus. I apologise,

6 Your Honours.

7 Q. You said green. I just wanted you to tell me what sort of green.

8 A. Camouflage green. You confused me.

9 Q. Can you keep going? You told me that you tire easily, but can we

10 keep going?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the last answer was blue, but he did say

14 green somewhere along the way just in case there's any doubt in your mind

15 over it.

16 MR. LUKIC: I just need the next question.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

18 MR. LUKIC: He already said before.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Members of your PJP company or PJP detachment, did they wear

22 black uniforms?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In the town of Prizren as well as other towns in your area, did

25 you have joint patrols with the VJ or joint check-points?

Page 24181

1 A. Both, patrols and check-points.

2 Q. Can you tell us where you had joint check-points, for example, in

3 the territory of your SUP?

4 A. Along the main roads to Zur going from Prizren, that is, towards

5 the Albanian border, then in the outskirts of Prizren and in the village

6 of Zur which is some 7 or 8 kilometres away; then towards Dusanovo, which

7 is an outskirts of Prizren towards Orahovac and Djakovica. Then on the

8 same road at the location called Zrze; next in the outskirts of Orahovac

9 entering and leaving Orahovac, that is; then at the entrance and exit

10 point of Suva Reka going from Prizren.

11 Q. Do you recall what military units were there in your area?

12 A. I find the terminology difficult. I hope you won't hold it

13 against me, but there were members of the VJ from the garrison or

14 barracks in Prizren. The 500 and something, I forgot the number, I

15 didn't even try to memorise it. Then there were members of the army who

16 came from Serbia proper, Kraljevo, Krusevac.

17 Q. Very well. Were there any army members in the town of Prizren

18 itself?

19 A. There was both police and army in the town of Prizren.

20 Q. Did you see any units of the Ministry of Defence, such as

21 civilian protection units in Prizren?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Concerning disciplinary measures, can you tell us whether you

24 held any positions which had to do with disciplinary responsibility of

25 policemen?

Page 24182

1 A. I worked at the disciplinary court of the MUP of Serbia, the

2 first -- the basic and the first-instance court, as well as the next

3 level up. Of course that was not my permanent position.

4 Q. What sort of positions did you hold?

5 A. I was the prosecutor, a member of the chamber, and the president

6 of the court, and I worked in the first-instance court.

7 Q. Can you tell us what the relationship is between the disciplinary

8 misdemeanour and criminal proceedings, do they overlap? Are they

9 exclusive of each other?

10 A. These or such proceedings are independent and separate, although

11 they can take place simultaneously.

12 Q. I just wanted to go through certain counts of indictment -- of

13 the indictment with you, such as Count 72 of the indictment speaks of

14 deportation. Did you know that on the 25th of March of 1999 or were you

15 informed that the forces of the FRY surrounded the town of Suva Reka and

16 that many houses were set on fire, the police drove women, the elderly,

17 and children away, and that a number of forces from Serbia killed a

18 number of males found there? Did you know that at the time?

19 A. I did not receive such information.

20 Q. Did you know that on the 31st of March, 1999, that some 80.000

21 Kosovar Albanians gathered in the municipality of Suva Reka, that they

22 hailed from that municipality and they gathered at Belanica and that the

23 next day the forces of Serbia and Yugoslavia shelled the village, forcing

24 the displaced persons to flee?

25 A. I did not have such information at my disposal.

Page 24183

1 Q. Have you ever been informed concerning item 75 of the count of

2 murder, 75(b), that in the morning hours of the 24th of March, 1999, the

3 forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded a part or a territory around the

4 Berisha family housing compound, whereby at least 44 civilians were

5 killed?

6 A. I had no such information at my disposal. Concerning the

7 event ... I learned of that event when Colonel Mitrovic was arrested. I

8 also heard further details of the case concerning -- before the special

9 court in Belgrade for war crimes, where I appeared as a witness.

10 Q. Concerning Bela Crkva, item 75(b), the 25th of March, 1999, or

11 around that date, the forces of FRY and Serbia surrounded and attacked

12 the village of Bela Crkva. It is alleged that they killed at least 12

13 persons and that they opened fire later killing some 65 Kosovar

14 Albanians. Did you know that at the time?

15 A. I didn't have that information at the time.

16 Q. Did you at the time know that, as alleged in the indictment under

17 (c) that in Mala Krusa on the 25th of March, 1999, the village of Mala

18 Krusa was attacked and around 105 Kosovar Albanians were killed?

19 A. I didn't have that piece of information.

20 Q. Concerning item 72(a), did you know that in the morning of the

21 25th of March, 1999, the forces of the FRY and Serbia surrounded the

22 village of Celina by using tanks and armoured vehicles and shelled the

23 village, they expelled the population from Celina?

24 A. I didn't have that information.

25 Q. Did you hear that on that same day, on the 25th of March, the

Page 24184

1 people were deported from the village of Pirane?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you hear that on the 28th of March, 1999, the police went

4 house to house in Prizren, forcing people to leave the town of Prizren?

5 A. No, I didn't.

6 Q. During the war and immediately before the war in 1999, were

7 houses burned in Prizren?

8 A. While I was in Prizren just one house burned down.

9 Q. Did NATO shell Prizren, the town itself?

10 A. I think that there are records of that. I don't know exactly how

11 many times a day they did it, but they definitely did it every day. They

12 shelled populated areas, facilities, civilians, and naturally police and

13 the army, that goes without saying.

14 Q. Well, we did your proofing, is it true that you had some trouble

15 remembering people and places, their names, because you stayed in Kosovo

16 for a very brief period of time and we were unable to talk about specific

17 details and specific crimes?

18 A. Yes, naturally. I spent a very brief period of time there under

19 very difficult circumstances, and also by nature I'm such that I

20 unintentionally forget certain things, figures, names, and so on.

21 Q. Let me ask you this: After the withdrawal of Serb forces, were

22 houses in Prizren set on fire?

23 A. I have to tell you, after they relocated, I think that the entire

24 Serbian settlement was on fire, I think that settlement was called

25 Podkaljaja. I think as we were moving out it was on fire, and

Page 24185

1 subsequently I heard that it had burned down.

2 Q. Is that a part of the town of Prizren?

3 A. Yes, it's almost in the centre of it.

4 Q. Thank you. That's all I have for the time being.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

6 Mr. Fila.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vojnovic, I'll be very

9 brief.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. I'd like for you to turn to document P1989.

12 A. It just happens to be open right in front of me.

13 Q. Fine. Did you attend this meeting held as you can see on that

14 particular date?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. As you can see, was Sainovic present at the meeting?

17 A. He was.

18 Q. If you look at the introductory part you can see that he's not

19 mentioned in the list of attendees in the very beginning; however, if you

20 turn to page 4 of your document --

21 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could we please bring up page 4.

22 Q. -- we can see that Sainovic joined the gathering, that he joined

23 the work of the people attending?

24 A. He came to that meeting just before the meeting ended, and as far

25 as I remember, although it's been quite a long time, he addressed us with

Page 24186

1 a couple of sentences, he greeted us, encouraged us a bit, and then left.

2 Q. Thank you. During the state of war, was it typical for high

3 officials coming from Serbia and Yugoslavia to come and visit the army

4 and the police, to address them with words of encouragement and so on?

5 A. Yes, it was, and I can give you some examples. Mr. Seselj came

6 on one occasion; and then minister of health at the time, I can't

7 remember his name -- oh, it was Mr. Bojic; and then once there were also

8 some visits from people from political parties, first of all, the SPS, I

9 remember, say, Mr. Suvakovic, I don't remember his position.

10 Q. And did they all have a need to say something, to give a

11 political statement, to get information about the events?

12 A. The ones I mentioned, they came to the town of Prizren. Normally

13 they went to see the chief of the Prizren district or they went to see

14 people who were members of the local establishment. I usually attended

15 those meetings myself.

16 Q. In other words, sir, I'm trying to ask you this: Was it typical

17 or atypical for politicians at the republic level or high level to come

18 and visit everybody because the country was at war?

19 A. Yes, it was and those were our politicians, and also people came

20 from abroad. Daniel Schaefer, I don't know what he was in international

21 organizations, he came to Prizren during the war and he was even wounded.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, would you please look at the document that has

23 already been shown to you, it's P1996, which is a meeting held at the MUP

24 staff in Pristina on the 7th of May, 1999, you have it in your binder.

25 Could you please find it.

Page 24187

1 A. I have found it.

2 Q. As you can see, in the first sentence it says that vice prime

3 minister of the federal cabinet of FRY, Mr. Sainovic, took part in the

4 meeting. Do you see this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember that meeting, were you there?

7 A. I was.

8 Q. Did he remain until the end, and while he was there what did he

9 say?

10 A. As far as I remember, he did not remain until the end. I think

11 that at the very beginning and immediately when he came, he greeted us.

12 He spoke about the situation, the war situation. I think he even drove

13 our attention to the issue of abiding by the rule of law and abiding by

14 professional rules of police, especially when it comes to perpetrators of

15 crime, and I don't remember some other details. That's what I remember

16 because this came within the sphere of work of our policemen.

17 Q. You might remember and you might not, but was there a communique

18 submitted to you from the MUP staff with an excerpt from some daily?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Fila please speak into the

20 microphone. The interpreters can't hear him.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he spoke something

22 about the communique or announcement that we had received earlier, it was

23 from some papers, and this had been sent to us by the staff.

24 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Could we see 5D1280 [as interpreted].

25 Q. And would you please continue once you see this document.

Page 24188

1 5D1289, 5D1289. You don't have it yet. Would you please look at page 1.

2 Is this the information that you received concerning that article?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] And could we now turn to page -- to

5 the next page.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So this is the article that Sainovic spoke about on that

9 occasion, and you had already known about it because you had received it

10 previously?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. These two meetings where you had occasion to hear

13 Sainovic, during these meetings did he convey to you some directives of

14 the supreme commander or any other commander or anything of the sort?

15 A. I did not understand him to convey anybody's directives to us,

16 and there was no legal ground for that as far as I am aware of

17 legislation in force.

18 Q. His presence and his words uttered at those two meetings, except

19 for political meaning, as you said, did they have any other meaning, did

20 they convey any order, any military content or what?

21 A. I saw him as a high state official politician, that's how I

22 perceived him.

23 Q. He was a federal official. You saw that it said there that he

24 was vice prime minister of the federal government, and as far as I know

25 you are a lawyer. Tell us, did federal government have any authority

Page 24189

1 over MUP in 1998 or did MUP exist at the level of the republic and then

2 you'll tell me the same thing concerning 1999.

3 A. The federal MUP had no authority and it acted in accordance with

4 the federal Law on Internal Affairs, whereas we at the republic level

5 worked in accordance with the republic Law on Internal Affairs. So these

6 are two separate organs of the interior, one at the federal level, one at

7 the republic level.

8 Q. Would that mean, perhaps, that the federal cabinet had no

9 authority over the work of the republic MUP, either in 1998 or in 1999?

10 A. Precisely so.

11 Q. I apologise.

12 You were shown a document a bit earlier and it mentions something

13 like Joint Command in the heading. Let me ask you this: In that brief

14 period of time in 1999 from the 11th of January or was it May or June

15 that you stayed there in Prizren SUP, you were able to see within your

16 chain of command in your contacts with colleagues above you, below you,

17 at the same level as you, did you see the presence of anything known as

18 the Joint Command, did you see it in a document? Did you hear about it ?

19 Did you attend it? Did you participate in it in any way in 1999 while

20 you were there?

21 A. When it comes to the Joint Command, I didn't hear anything about

22 the topic. For a while and in the beginning of the war it was said that

23 there would be subordination of the police to the army; however, I didn't

24 see that or experience it.

25 Q. My last question has to do with Cvetic again. At the MUP staff

Page 24190

1 did you ever see a document that had come in with a heading of Joint

2 Command in 1999?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's all.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.

7 Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, I'm Mihajlo Bakrac,

11 attorney-at-law, I'm counsel for General Lazarevic, and I have just one

12 question for certain; and depending on your answer I might have another

13 one.

14 Mr. Lukic asked you something about planning and you explained

15 that you hadn't seen it, hadn't been involved in it.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we now see Exhibit P1505 that

17 you have already seen, page 1, please.

18 Q. You made a comment in examination-in-chief with Mr. Lukic about

19 these persons who are listed here but actually did not take part in the

20 work of the staff. I'm interested in this, under item 3, Radislav

21 Djinovic, lieutenant-colonel, is mentioned. Was he in the staff?

22 A. It's a very difficult question for me because I really spent only

23 as much time at the staff as I needed for the meetings. I as a member of

24 the MUP, I don't remember, and I know that Djinovic after leaving his

25 post as chief of department in Serbia came to Pristina and worked there

Page 24191

1 for a while. Now, as to whether he was a member of the staff in Pristina

2 while I was there, I really wouldn't be able to tell you. I'm afraid I

3 would make a mistake.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vojnovic. Just one more question. In this

5 decision on establishing the staff, it says here that he was assistant

6 head of staff for interventions and operations planning. Can you explain

7 to us what operations planning means?

8 A. I can give you my opinion, but I didn't socialise with Djinovic

9 nor was I present when he planned anything. And if you want my

10 understanding of this, then I took it that he probably had some

11 information from the terrain, had some data that was of relevance for

12 operations, but I remain by my initial answer.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Vojnovic.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

15 questions.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

18 Mr. Vojnovic, you'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,

19 Mr. Hannis.

20 Mr. Hannis.

21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:

23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vojnovic. First, can I ask you to spell your

24 last name for us. We've seen it spelled two or three different ways in

25 various documents. I want to be sure we have it correctly on the record.

Page 24192

1 A. It is written correctly on the statement that I signed, and I can

2 show that to you, but I can also spell it letter by letter.

3 Q. No, I --

4 A. V --

5 Q. Go ahead.

6 A. V-o-j-n-o-v-i-c.

7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what work you were doing in the MUP

8 between 1990 and 1998 before you were sent to Kosovo in January 1999?

9 A. In 1990 I was assigned to work as commander of police station in

10 the municipality of Savski Venac, Belgrade secretariat of the interior,

11 where I remained for some two, two and a half years. After that I

12 practically left the MUP, or rather, after that I went to the seat of the

13 MUP to the police administration where I became chief of division for

14 applying rule of law in work and training of members of police force, and

15 I spent there less than a year, following which I was assigned to work in

16 the post-secondary school of the interior as assistant chief for

17 education administration. I spent there some two, two and a half years.

18 Subsequently, I was appointed assistant chief of police administration in

19 the seat of MUP.

20 Q. And was that the position you held when Minister Stojiljkovic

21 told you you were going to be going to Prizren as the SUP chief, you were

22 the assistant chief of police administration?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what were your duties as the assistant chief of police

25 administration?

Page 24193

1 A. Since I came to that post from the higher school of internal

2 affairs, post-secondary school of internal affairs, my main task was to

3 train and educate members of the police force.

4 Q. On what kinds of topics?

5 A. When new employees are brought into service to the position of

6 policeman, my work dealt with their applications and through the whole

7 process until the moment they are sent to police courses and the

8 curriculum at those courses and seminars or training sessions.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you. When you were the commander of the police

10 station - and I can't pronounce the name - Savski Venac, how big a

11 station was that? How many men did you have under you?

12 A. Up to 140 policemen. It is a police station covering one part of

13 Belgrade. In addition to Savski Venac and Vracar it is a central part of

14 Belgrade, it fell under the department of the interior, Savski Venac.

15 Q. Thank you. You said you left that position after about two or

16 two and a half years; was that at your request?

17 A. We agreed on that.

18 Q. When Minister Stojiljkovic told you about being sent to Prizren,

19 was that at your request or were you picked for the job?

20 A. I was sent there without asking to be.

21 Q. Did he tell you why you were chosen for that job?

22 A. I didn't dare ask him. He told me that my predecessor or the

23 chief of the Prizren SUP is about to retire.

24 Q. In your personal view, was this a promotion or a lateral transfer

25 or a demotion? How did you view it?

Page 24194

1 A. There was very little time on my hands for me to ponder, but I

2 certainly did not view that as a promotion. However, it wasn't to my

3 detriment either. When we compare that to my previous post, it's about

4 the same.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. When was the first time you were aware of the

6 existence of a body or a unit called the MUP staff of -- for Kosovo?

7 When was the first time you ever heard of that?

8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, this is a very difficult question for me. I can

9 approximate, or rather, guess. In 1991 I was sent to Pristina. In 1992

10 I was appointed the head of the police course that was conducted in

11 Vucitrn. Around that time there was a staff in existence, I don't know

12 what kind of a staff it was, of a detachment or something else, but I

13 cannot be any more precise now. I apologise.

14 Q. No, that's all right. I thank you for that. We have heard some

15 other evidence in this trial about a MUP staff in Kosovo from the early

16 1990s. The reason I ask, though, is that that document that you were

17 shown on direct testimony, that's Exhibit P1505, which is the 16 June

18 1998 decision of Minister Stojiljkovic establishing a staff. And I

19 wanted to point out to you that that is to establish a ministerial staff

20 for the suppression of terrorism, which is a longer name, a more specific

21 name, than we've seen evidence about the earlier MUP staff.

22 So did you notice that? Were you aware of that, that in 1998

23 this staff that was being created was specifically for the suppression of

24 terrorism? Had you ever heard that term before or were you aware that

25 that's how it was being referred to? Because I know you told us you

Page 24195

1 didn't see the document before.

2 A. I don't know if you'll be able to understand, but there was no

3 need for me to know the full or the real name. For me it was a staff.

4 What its full name was I truly cannot tell you precisely, as I don't

5 know.

6 Q. And your early testimony today at page 9, line 13, you were asked

7 if you had a duty to seek any kind of approval or consent from the MUP

8 staff in order to engage your own units or units sent to the Prizren SUP

9 to carry out tasks in your territory. Your answer was: "Practically

10 speaking, there was no need for me to contact staff in relation to that."

11 Even though there was no need to, did you, for whatever reason,

12 contact the MUP staff about such things, about the engagement of units in

13 your territory?

14 A. I said that the sent units of the PJP, or rather, the detachment

15 of the PJP that was sent there as well as the Prizren PJP company carried

16 out regular tasks and assignments. It was done in agreement among the

17 various lines of work at the ministry of the secretariat and the

18 commander of the PJP. When I say "lines of work," I mean the chiefs of

19 various departments, the police and other, including their deputies.

20 When it comes to activities in which the PJP participated in terms of

21 formations, a PJP company could be mobilised only pursuant to their own

22 command's order, that is, the command of the intervention brigade from

23 Pristina. As for the 37th PJP Detachment, it was mobilised, as far as I

24 know, from or by the ministry itself, the MUP. There was a dispatch that

25 came from MUP, I believe, and to be more specific it was probably done by

Page 24196

1 the police administration.

2 Q. You were asked about a document or showing a meeting on the 4th

3 of April, 1999, the MUP staff in Pristina, that's Exhibit P1989, and you

4 were asked about a reference about mandatory reporting of chiefs of

5 secretariats and unit commanders to staff. Did you -- I'm not clear, did

6 you report regularly to MUP staff in Pristina after this 4th of April

7 meeting where this mandatory reporting was brought up?

8 A. I was appointed chief of the secretariat in January, as I've

9 already told you. Practically speaking, there was no need for me to

10 change anything by way of informing. Informing was in keeping with the

11 guide-lines on informing and the circular which I believe was an annex to

12 that information. I have to tell you that frequently we had no

13 possibility to inform the MUP or the MUP staff since we had serious

14 difficulties with communications, including the courier service. I think

15 there were also other problems in terms of vehicles, fuel, and secure

16 movement along the roads to Pristina and so on and so forth. As I

17 usually say, most of it were extraordinary circumstances.

18 Q. Okay. You were asked about volunteers. Were you not aware of

19 the presence of any Russian or Ukrainian volunteers in your area during

20 the war?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You --

23 A. You have to understand, I was a chief of a secretariat. I mostly

24 frequented the urban part of Prizren and the locations that were as they

25 were. There I couldn't meet anything of the sort, and believe me when I

Page 24197

1 say that I had no such information.

2 Q. You weren't aware of the existence of some sort of intervention

3 unit that fought alongside elements of the 549th Motorised Brigade from

4 the VJ and the 37th Detachment of the PJP that included Russian and

5 Ukrainian volunteers? You didn't know about that?

6 A. I didn't know about that. I had no such information.

7 Q. We had a discussion with you earlier today about the reserve

8 police squads, and it wasn't clear to me at the end. You said in your

9 statement that not -- that those were practically disbanded because

10 during the war most of those people were mobilised either into the VJ or

11 the MUP. But what about the ones who did not get mobilised into the VJ

12 or the MUP, weren't they still around in late March or early April 1999

13 with the weapons they had been issued?

14 A. Again, I have to stress that in practice while heading the

15 secretariat I had no such problems or information of that nature. If I

16 were to say anything it would be guess-work. I cannot tell you that they

17 were without me knowing. In terms of the information I had, such people

18 did not exist in the secretariat territory. When you say that some must

19 have still been around, my guess is that General Lukic may have had

20 certain information; but as for Prizren, the secretariat of the interior

21 did not have such problems.

22 Q. You mention in your statement at paragraph 29 that: "Not a

23 single mosque was damaged in Prizren itself."

24 I take it you're talking about the town of Prizren itself,

25 correct?

Page 24198

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many mosques were there in Prizren town?

3 A. I don't know whether you will accept my answer and I cannot be

4 precise, but over 15.

5 Q. And you were aware that there were mosques in the municipality

6 outside the town that were destroyed during the war, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you know about the one that was destroyed in Landovica?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I'm about to move onto another topic.

11 I don't know if this is a convenient time for our recess.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It will be, Mr. Hannis.

13 Mr. Vojnovic, we need a break at this stage, that for half an

14 hour. While we have the break, would you please leave the courtroom with

15 the usher.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at 6.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 Mr. Hannis.

22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, when you first got sent to Kosovo you told us you

24 went down and met with your predecessor and spent a few days with him

25 going over what your job would be like; correct?

Page 24199

1 A. My predecessor was also sent from Belgrade. We left Belgrade

2 together, that is what I said. He spent some time with me, two or three

3 days.

4 Q. Let me --

5 A. He was awaiting his retirement, handed over some things, and went

6 back.

7 Q. And that was Gradimir Zekavica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did he tell you that in the Prizren SUP they had adopted a plan

10 to combat terrorism and that it was being implemented?

11 A. No. If I may, I will repeat. I toured the various regional

12 organizational units with him, and that was more or less it.

13 Q. Okay. Now, I wanted to ask you about the -- a couple more things

14 in your statement before I move on to something else. With regard to the

15 reporting regime that you described in your statement, you mentioned

16 there were three kinds of reporting, there was urgent reporting, daily

17 reporting, and periodic reporting. Which of those reports, if any, went

18 to the MUP staff during your time there in 1999?

19 A. Whenever it was possible to send a daily report to the MUP, we

20 would also send it to the MUP staff in Pristina. It is an overview of

21 events and occurrences with statistics.

22 Q. I will tell you, in order to try and save time, we have an

23 exhibit in evidence here, it's Exhibit P1693. You don't have it in your

24 folder, but it's a report or a summary dated the 1st of May, 1999, from

25 the MUP staff to the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Belgrade. And it

Page 24200

1 reports on the events in the area. And included within it at page 6 of

2 the English and pages 3 and 4 of the B/C/S, there's a report about an

3 event on the 30th of April, 1999, where members of the Prizren SUP had

4 arrested -- I'm sorry, let me find it. I think I've got the wrong page

5 reference. Sorry, it's page 8 of the English. On April 30th, officers

6 of the Prizren SUP arrested and filed a criminal report against certain

7 individuals for stealing a vehicle, et cetera.

8 So it appears that at least on April 30th you were able to report

9 to the MUP staff about a criminal arrest and report that had been filed

10 in Prizren, and that's the kind of thing you would typically do; correct?

11 A. It was on the 30th of April. At this moment I cannot recall the

12 event. If it was registered, it must have happened, but as I said, when

13 the war began - and we tied that to the beginning of air-strikes - at

14 least concerning organization, it was difficult to function. As to the

15 people who were drafting those reports and where they were sitting

16 physically, I don't know. We used to call those locations wartime

17 locations and we usually had contact at the level of leaders, leadership,

18 and there was no direct communication between people who were supposed to

19 do that as such.

20 Q. The last thing I wanted to ask you about from your statement is

21 paragraph 43, you say: "I remember a case when some Albanians, several

22 thousand of them withdrew to the mountains above Prizren during the

23 bombing. When they decided to go to Albania, the representatives came to

24 see me through the manager of the cinema and asked me to ensure safe

25 passage for them to Albania. I told them there was no need for them to

Page 24201

1 leave their homes and they should feel free to return. After this

2 conversation, none of them showed up again."

3 So you don't know what happened to those several thousand people?

4 A. I don't know exactly what happened with them. It was just prior

5 to the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement. I don't think any harm came

6 their way.

7 Q. You --

8 A. I apologise. I truly don't know.

9 Q. Okay. You were asked about anti-terrorist activity in the

10 territory of your SUP and whether that was carried out under the control

11 of the MUP staff. Your answer at page 10, line 20 today was: "As for

12 anti-terrorist activities, we in SUP were in charge of that and PJPs."

13 And then later on you said something else that left me somewhat

14 unclear about who was in charge of those activities. You were asked

15 about: "Was anybody's approval required in order for MUP units to be

16 used?"

17 And Mr. Lukic said: "I'm referring to PJP detachment and your

18 company."

19 And you said: "Not to my knowledge."

20 The next question: "Was there any need to issue some special

21 sorts of order to engage PJP units prior to each individual action?"

22 And your answer was: "As far as I know, there was no need to do

23 that; however, the PJP company of the Prizren SUP needed to get in touch

24 with its command which was, I think, located in Pristina."

25 So what was your role then as the chief of SUP in connection with

Page 24202

1 the PJP units and anti-terrorist actions in 1999? Did you have any role?

2 A. In the sense of control of PJP units, when they were involved in

3 activities aimed at prevention of terrorist acts, I had no authorities

4 there. However, when they were not involved in those tasks and duties

5 but when they were doing their regular tasks and duties, then through a

6 daily schedule of work they were assigned to regular duties, through

7 regular modes of organization, which is check-points, patrols, beat

8 policemen, and similar activities, detaining persons in town involving

9 OPGs and so on.

10 Q. How did that work on a daily basis then? I mean, I suppose you

11 wanted to have your men go out and do something in connection with the

12 ordinary task of law enforcement, et cetera, and they didn't want to do

13 that. Suppose they said, Oh, we can't do that today, boss, we have to go

14 do some anti-terrorist action. How did you know whether that was real?

15 Did someone from Pristina tell you, Oh, we need your PJP guys today for

16 an anti-terrorist action, so please let them go? How did that work?

17 A. That mostly functioned through the said senior officials of PJP,

18 Colonel Mitrovic, Radenkovic, who was commander of the PJP in the Prizren

19 SUP. Naturally there was certain problems in that area because if they

20 were unable to perform regular duties and tasks, then that was additional

21 strain for the remaining policemen who were not members of those units.

22 Let me just mention an example of the type of additional strain or

23 burden. They worked in two shifts, so instead of working for six hours

24 and rest for 18 or 24 hours, they used to work for 12 hours and then rest

25 for 12 hours.

Page 24203

1 Q. So between you and Colonel Mitrovic, then who had the higher

2 authority or say about how those PJP personnel were going to be used? I

3 mean, who decided whether they were going to be used for anti-terrorist

4 actions and when and where and how? Who made that decision? Was that

5 Colonel Mitrovic or somebody higher up?

6 A. As chief of secretariat of the interior, I was unable to order

7 anything to Colonel Mitrovic, and the same applied to him, he couldn't

8 order anything to me. So he was the one who made decisions about his

9 unit and I was in charge of the secretariat in Prizren.

10 Q. Did you and he ever have any conflict during 1999 about how

11 individual members of the PJP were going to be used? I mean, was there

12 ever a time when you really needed them to do some of your SUP work and

13 he wanted to take them off on some anti-terrorist activity? Did that

14 ever happen?

15 A. I don't remember that Mitrovic and I had any sort of a conflict

16 at any point in time on any topic.

17 Q. What about the 5th PJP Company, was that -- the PJP 5th Company

18 from Prizren, was that under you or under Colonel Mitrovic or under

19 somebody in Pristina in the brigade?

20 A. When it comes to tasks aimed at prevention of terrorist acts,

21 that company was under the command of Veljko Radenovic, its commander.

22 Naturally I couldn't command it under those circumstances or in those

23 cases. And I already told you that he had his superiors in the

24 intervention brigade, the 124th one which was headquartered in Pristina.

25 Q. You mentioned at page 36 today that before activities were

Page 24204

1 carried out, you would receive a map normally from the commander of the

2 PJP company from Prizren or from Colonel Mitrovic. How far in advance of

3 the planned activities would you receive a map, would it be a day or two

4 ahead of time or the same day, do you recall?

5 A. I think a day, perhaps two days, prior to that, not earlier than

6 that.

7 Q. Do you ever recall seeing on any of those maps you received the

8 word "Joint Command"?

9 A. I truly don't remember seeing anything of that sort, and I have

10 already said that when it comes to those coded maps and markings on them,

11 it was important for me to the extent that it indicated whether I had any

12 duties when it comes to logistics and assistance that was needed on the

13 ground in that sense.

14 Q. You mentioned today at page 36 that you -- "almost daily General

15 Delic, myself, the commander of the 37th Detachment saw each other and

16 spent time together." And you were asked about coordination. You said:

17 "It's difficult for me to grasp the concept of coordination. They didn't

18 hide any of their conversations from me. I did not participate in the

19 creation of this plan. I didn't decide on when activities were to be

20 undertaken."

21 And you told us that mostly you met in the barracks, within the

22 barracks in Prizren at the PJP commander's office. General Delic, I

23 guess he was then Colonel Delic, testified in this trial on the 29th of

24 November. And at page 19344 of the transcript he was asked this question

25 by Mr. Cepic: "Who did you cooperate with most frequently from the MUP?"

Page 24205

1 And his answer was: "On the territory of Prizren municipality

2 there is a secretariat of the interior and I cooperated usually with the

3 chief of the secretariat, in 1998 that was Colonel Zekavica, in 1999 that

4 was Colonel Milos Vojinovic" is how he said it, but I'm sure he meant

5 you, Vojnovic, corrected? Even though in the transcript they had it

6 spelled as Vojinovic, but there was only one colonel in charge of the

7 SUP, that was you, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then he said: "They were my counterparts more or less when

10 we were carrying out coordination the commander of the 37th Detachment,

11 Colonel Mitrovic, would be called to the secretariat in Prizren, and in

12 the secretariat we would meet. On the maps we would specify how both

13 sets of forces were to act."

14 Now, that's different than what you told us. Do you disagree

15 with Colonel Delic, that you -- the three of you met in the secretariat

16 to discuss these maps and how the forces would act?

17 A. I have said that when there was opportunity for us to meet, we

18 would meet on a daily basis, and I'm mostly referring to the time before

19 the bombing began. As I said, most often we would meet in the barracks

20 because the command of the 37th Detachment of PJP was headquartered in

21 the barracks as well as the command of the Army of Yugoslavia. On those

22 occasions we discussed many duties and obligations, and everything

23 functioned well among us. We were like brothers. All of us knew our own

24 obligations.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 24206

1 A. I didn't know nor was I duty-bound to know --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: The question is: Where did you meet? And

3 Mr. Hannis asked you if you disagreed, if you disputed the evidence given

4 by Delic, that's all.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. If

6 possible I wanted to explain this in greater detail, the situation. As I

7 said, most often in the barracks, but we would also meet in my offices

8 and also in the premises of the municipality and so on.


10 Q. And do you disagree with him that you would discuss on the maps

11 how both sets of forces were going to act? That's what the three of you

12 did, right?

13 A. The three of us didn't do that. I was in charge of the

14 secretariat in Prizren in charge of regular duties and tasks. Prevention

15 of terrorist acts is not a regular task, nor was it performed by regular

16 police forces, except when they were forced to do that, when they were

17 attacked. So I wasn't able to participate in the drafting of the plan

18 because I didn't know how to do that, but naturally we talked. I had

19 many other tasks in relation to that.

20 Q. You answered my question. You said at page 39, line 12 today:

21 "Of course we discussed the activities of the Siptar terrorist forces, we

22 discussed our duties and obligations concerning carrying out joint

23 patrols and joint check-points, we discussed those taken into custody and

24 other things."

25 During those joint VJ/MUP anti-terrorist activities, do you

Page 24207

1 recall any prisoners actually having been taken by units of the 549th and

2 the 37th PJP Detachment? Can you recall any?

3 A. This is a difficult question for me. You have to allow me to

4 give an explanation. The term "prisoner" is not clear to me as a

5 policeman. The police could only have detained persons and the police

6 did have them --

7 Q. Well, let me stop you there. Did -- after any of these joint VJ

8 and MUP anti-terrorist activities, did they bring in anybody alive?

9 A. Naturally.

10 Q. And can you tell --

11 A. I just remembered, I think that one person wearing a uniform of a

12 Siptar terrorist group was brought in, I'm not sure about the date, but

13 it was the action in Jeskovo, not that I think, I'm sure about that

14 because I was informed about that by my subordinates from the service

15 where that person was detained and later charges were filed and he was

16 handed over to competent authorities.

17 Q. If I'm not mistaken, if that was the action in Jeskovo village

18 sector, that took place on or about the 11th of March, 1999, correct?

19 A. Yes, that was in March.

20 Q. Okay. Could we take a look at Exhibit P1998, and I can give you

21 a hard copy, Mr. Vojnovic. This is a --

22 A. Thank you.

23 Q. I doubt that you've seen this before. This is a report by

24 Colonel Delic, an after-action report on the joint anti-terrorist

25 activity in Jeskovo village sector that took place on the 11th of March.

Page 24208

1 It's dated 12 March 1999, and among the things he reports it's -- at the

2 top of page 2 of the English and it's near the bottom of page 1 for you,

3 I think I've highlighted it in pink. And he gives his estimate of the

4 Siptar terrorist losses. He indicates: "Nine killed, no one was

5 captured."

6 Now, having read that, does that refresh your memory that perhaps

7 you're mistaken about when a captured terrorist was brought in after

8 anti-terrorist activities?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I apologise to you, but I wouldn't consider

10 myself entitled to interpret the regulations and documents of the Army of

11 Yugoslavia. I don't know what kind of terms they use and I don't want to

12 speculate. I can tell you about the Law on Internal Affairs and I can

13 tell you about the Law on Criminal Procedure which regulate in great

14 detail these topics. So what exactly General Delic wrote in this

15 particular case is something you need to ask him.

16 Q. Well, really, and we did. But, Mr. Vojnovic, there's nothing

17 complicated about that language. It says: "Nine killed, no one was

18 captured."

19 What is it about that that you can't understand? That means no

20 prisoners were taken, right? Prisoners, detainees, capturees, whatever

21 you want to call them, no one was brought in alive, right?

22 A. No, that's not how it was. Now you're reminding me of some other

23 things. Since this activity was carried out in daylight, throughout the

24 day, and we knew that there were persons who were killed, together with

25 the observers of the OSCE we secured that entire area or the majority of

Page 24209

1 that area. And together with them on the following day we conducted an

2 on-site investigation. I can't really remember the exact number. I know

3 that persons were killed, but there's no need for me to speculate because

4 there is the record of the investigation conducted on site and I suppose

5 that there are also members of that mission who were there on site. I

6 even remember that there was a policeman from the German police who had

7 been sent and who took part in that on-site investigation so --

8 Q. Let me stop you there. You're not answering my question. Let's

9 move on to something else. If you would go down from that paragraph

10 under item number 2 it talks about the forces engaged in this operation,

11 and you'll see it identifies the MUP forces as being the 5th PJP Company

12 of Prizren and the 37th PJP Detachment of a strength of about 300 men.

13 And you don't have any disagreement with that, right, you knew those

14 forces from Prizren were involved in this anti-terrorist action, right?

15 A. With your permission, prior to the beginning of bombing the

16 entire --

17 Q. Are you --

18 A. -- PJP detachment from Nis --

19 Q. Excuse me, sir, are you trying to answer my question?

20 A. I don't know how many there were. I apologise, but I cannot

21 confirm this figure.

22 Q. Okay. But although you may not be able to confirm the figure,

23 you can confirm the units, that parts of the 5th PJP Company and the 37th

24 PJP Detachment took place in this joint activity, anti-terrorist

25 activity, with the VJ on the 11th of March in the Jeskovo village sector,

Page 24210

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And while we're at it let me show you one more related document,

4 this is P1999, and with the usher's help I'll trade you documents. This

5 is dated the 18th of March, 1999, also from Colonel Delic of the 549th,

6 and it's reporting on the activities on the 17th of March in the Kabas

7 village sector, which I think you mentioned earlier in your testimony.

8 You'll see near the bottom of your page 1, and for us in English it's

9 on -- near the top of page 2. We'll scroll down to the bottom for you in

10 a second. There's an estimate of the number of losses of the Siptar

11 terrorists, and here it says 11 were killed and no one was captured.

12 And further down in item 2 regarding the forces involved, you'll

13 see it mentions MUP forces engaged were the 5th PJP Company of Prizren

14 and the 37th PJP Detachment of Nis, here this time with a strength of

15 about 350 men. Now, I understand you may not be able to confirm the

16 number of men, but you were aware that those two units were engaged in

17 this anti-terrorist action with the 549th on the 17th of March in the

18 Kabas village sector, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On both of these occasions, the 11th and 17th of March actions,

21 had you seen a copy of the map regarding those proposed actions before

22 they took place?

23 A. Except for what I mentioned earlier, the coded maps, I did not

24 see it on A4 format, hard copy. I apologise. I remember these events

25 well. I was in the town of Prizren throughout that whole time.

Page 24211

1 Q. Okay. I wasn't clear from your testimony. I understand --

2 MR. LUKIC: I apologise for a second.

3 MR. HANNIS: Yes.

4 MR. LUKIC: I think that the witness said that he did see it on

5 the A4 format, not that he didn't see it on the A4 format.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps you should check that with the witness,

7 Mr. Hannis.

8 Thank you, Mr. Lukic.


10 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, did you hear that and can you tell us which it was,

11 did you or did you not see the map on A4 format?

12 A. I saw the map in A4 format.

13 Q. For both of those actions in Jeskovo and Kabas? I guess was it

14 two separate maps or did -- that you saw on two separate occasions?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Let me move onto something different for the moment.

17 I'd like to show you Exhibit P1723. I don't know if you will have seen

18 this document before or not because it's another VJ document. It's dated

19 the 24th of May, 1999. With the usher's help I'll trade you. This is a

20 report from Colonel Lazarevic, and I'm showing it to you in connection to

21 your answer about joint patrols and joint check-points. You indicated

22 that in Prizren and other towns in your area you had both joint patrols

23 and check-points. First of all, is that correct, in 1999 did you have

24 joint patrols and check-points with the VJ?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24212

1 Q. And that also included during the war after the bombing started?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I want to ask you about paragraph -- I think it's the sixth

4 paragraph, and for you I think it's the second one from the bottom on the

5 screen in front of you now. I'll read from my English translation. It

6 says: "The work of mixed check-points of the MUP and the military police

7 units is fraught with problems and salient issues since the MUP tolerates

8 criminal activities of its members against the Siptar civilian

9 population - murder, rape, looting, robbery, aggravated theft ..."

10 Did anybody in the army or outside the army complain to you about

11 these kind of problems at joint check-points with the VJ prior to the

12 24th of May, 1999?

13 A. As far as I remember, no.

14 Q. Thank you. With regard to the 5th PJP Company, where did they --

15 where were they housed or where did they stay when they were not engaged

16 in activities in the field? Were they at the SUP or at the barracks or

17 where were they?

18 A. I apologise, what do you mean where were they? Can you explain

19 that? While they were working or what?

20 Q. Where were they housed? Was there a place where they stayed or

21 were these just regular policemen who went home at the end of the day?

22 Did they have some kind of compound or barracks or housing unit?

23 A. Precisely what you said. After work they would go home.

24 Q. I understood the 37th PJP Detachment was housed at the barracks

25 where the 549th was, is that correct, for them?

Page 24213

1 A. You mean members of PJP in Prizren?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. I apologise.

4 Q. Member -- PJP members of the 37th Detachment.

5 A. They were billeted in the barracks until the commencement of

6 air-strikes, when they left the location, as we all did.

7 Q. Okay. And after that where were they housed when they weren't in

8 action? Did they have a single location or did they move around from

9 place to place because of the bombing?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it is difficult for me to tell you where they

11 were, maybe out in the open. I truly don't know.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. For me they were somewhere in the field.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. You told us earlier today that you worked at

15 the disciplinary court of the MUP of Serbia, first at the first-instance

16 court and then the next level up; and you also worked as a prosecutor and

17 a member of the chamber and president of the court. But during what

18 time-period was all that? Was that throughout your career or just a

19 certain time-period?

20 A. Throughout my career. When I entered the service and until one

21 or two months prior to my retirement.

22 Q. Did you engage in any of that activity in 1999?

23 A. I apologise. I wasn't always at this highest position, I was

24 also a member of chambers.

25 Q. I understand. Did you do any work with the disciplinary court in

Page 24214

1 any one of those roles in 1999?

2 A. Since I was appointed chief of the SUP and by the virtue of that

3 fact alone I was a part of the disciplinary procedure.

4 Q. Let me ask you about a few of the MUP meetings that you attended

5 during your time as SUP chief. The first one I wanted to ask you about

6 is Exhibit P1990, a meeting on the 17th of February, 1999. I can hand

7 you a hard copy. You talked about this before, and I think I only had

8 one question for you on this meeting. Do you recall attending this one

9 where Minister Stojiljkovic attended and addressed the group?

10 A. I do recall.

11 Q. And on page 3 of the B/C/S, I'm not sure -- I may have marked

12 it --

13 MR. HANNIS: And that's page 5 of the English, Your Honours, and

14 my learned friends.

15 Q. -- Stojiljkovic says: "We are counting on phases of pressure.

16 Within two or three days of an attack we have to put our plans in motion

17 and use the time to mop up the territory from terrorists."

18 Do you remember him talking about that? I'm sorry if -- I think

19 it's on page 3 of the B/C/S and it's right above -- there's a series of

20 bullet points. It's the paragraph right before the bullet points start.

21 I don't know if the usher can assist.

22 A. I found it.

23 Q. Okay. Yeah.

24 A. If I may.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 24215

1 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

2 Q. Do you recall him saying these words or words to this effect,

3 about: We have to put our plans in motion and use the time to mop up the

4 territories from the terrorists within two or three days of being

5 attacked, and I can tell you from the earlier he's talking about NATO.

6 Do you recall that?

7 A. To be honest, I don't remember that.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Knowing the minister, though, I would say these were his words.

10 Q. Okay. Isn't it correct that there was a plan that if NATO

11 attacked you all were going to try to destroy or get rid of as many KLA

12 as possible during that time before a NATO ground invasion took place?

13 Wasn't that part of the general plan, if you know?

14 A. I don't know that we had such a plan, at least I didn't see it.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me then ask you about a meeting on the 4th

16 of April, 1999, this is in Exhibit P1989 and I can give you a hard copy

17 of this one. I think you were shown this one before as well. You

18 attended the meeting and we see you speaking at page 2 of both the

19 English and the B/C/S. Do you find that, where you're speaking, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You mentioned 19 persons being taken in custody, problems with

22 Muslims and Turks leaving, and unburied bodies in the zone of

23 anti-terrorist activities. How big a problem was that for you? How many

24 unburied bodies were you talking about here, five or six or dozens or

25 what?

Page 24216

1 A. I cannot answer precisely; however, as the chief of SUP I did

2 have certain problems with corpses. There were cattle, corpses of

3 people. There was a problem that was particularly acute. In Pusto Selo,

4 which was within the territory of our SUP, we had information that a

5 number of corpses had been buried there. Since we were duty-bound to

6 investigate, we needed to check the information; however, it proved to be

7 very difficult if I remember correctly. We went there once; however, we

8 didn't manage to arrive at the destination due to Siptar terrorist

9 activities. We went out for a second time and I believe it was with the

10 assistance of certain VJ units --

11 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir. I was just asking about the

12 numbers if you could tell us. Also on that page could you go down where

13 you see a reference to Radislav Mitrovic, the PJP 37th Detachment

14 commander. He notes in the second point that: "Situation in units is

15 good as well as cooperation with the VJ and the secretariat."

16 And I think you agreed with that; you told us that you in the

17 secretariat had good cooperation with the 37th PJP, right?

18 A. That is right.

19 Q. And I think two last things I want to ask you about on this

20 document, if you could go to the last page. And we have Obrad Stevanovic

21 speaking. You see the last bullet point under him is: "Conduct

22 cooperation with the VJ through the commander on the ground and inform

23 the staff of any problems."

24 You were doing that, right? You were cooperating with the VJ

25 through the commander, Colonel Delic, and you didn't have any problems

Page 24217

1 that you needed to report to the staff, did you?

2 A. I don't remember. I don't think I had any problems with Colonel

3 Delic.

4 Q. And from that one that we just read can you go up one, two, three

5 bullet points. There's one that says: "Control and command of units in

6 the area of a secretariat is done by the chiefs."

7 Can you explain to us what that means in light of what you've

8 said about the PJPs and how they were directed in the area of your

9 secretariat? Those two things don't seem to match up, what you told us

10 before and what Stevanovic is saying here.

11 A. Excuse me, which bullet point?

12 Q. Well, from the one that we just read, if you went up three above

13 it or if you started at the top of the page under Stevanovic and went

14 down one, two, three, four -- six --

15 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: I think this is asked and answered during the direct

18 examination.

19 MR. HANNIS: Well --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. That doesn't matter. It's still

21 within Mr. Hannis's province if he wishes to cross-examine on that.

22 Mr. Hannis.

23 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I would.

24 Q. Did you find it, Mr. Vojnovic?

25 A. I did.

Page 24218

1 Q. Okay. And my question was: This is coming from General

2 Stevanovic, who I understood was sort of the ministry guy in charge of

3 PJPs, and he's saying: "Control and command of units in the area of a

4 secretariat is done by the chiefs."

5 That seems to be in conflict with what you told us about how the

6 PJPs were commanded in the area of your secretariat. Can you explain

7 that for us?

8 A. I said several times today that I controlled the units of the

9 police from the regular, from among the regular forces and when they

10 performed regular tasks. In this case General Obrad Stevanovic had that

11 in mind in particular. This order of his did not authorise me to

12 undertake any control over PJP units.

13 Q. What was General Stevanovic's job in the ministry at this time,

14 do you know?

15 A. As far as I know, General Stevanovic was assistant minister. I

16 believe he also was at the position of the police administration chief at

17 the seat of the ministry.

18 Q. Was there anybody at the ministry other than the minister himself

19 who had greater control over PJP units in the Republic of Serbia than

20 General Stevanovic, if you know?

21 A. As far as I know, minister and sector chiefs were General

22 Stevanovic's superiors.

23 Q. With regard to the PJP?

24 A. Excuse me. I don't know their relationships.

25 Q. Well, other than Minister Stojiljkovic and General Djordjevic, as

Page 24219

1 head of the public security sector, was there anybody between them and

2 General Stevanovic in terms of a chain of command over the PJP units in

3 the Republic of Serbia in 1999; and if so, who was that person?

4 A. I don't think there was such a person.

5 Q. Thank you. Then I need to go to P1996, which is a meeting of the

6 7th of May and this is one that I think you were shown earlier as well.

7 This is a long one. I'll hand you a hard copy.

8 A. I found it.

9 Q. Oh, okay. You have it. That's fine if you have it. I want to

10 take you first to page 6 of the B/C/S, and it's page 7 in the English.

11 This is where you are speaking, and you talked a little bit about this.

12 If you could go down -- well, go down six bullet points, where you're

13 talking about 61 persons were brought into the court but inaccurate

14 sentences were pronounced. Do you find that? I think you told us about

15 that before.

16 A. I found it.

17 Q. And right below that you say: "A judge was detained; however, he

18 was released from detention because he purportedly received call-up

19 papers and was supposed to go to the front."

20 Do you recall what that judge was detained for?

21 A. I think he was a judge with the municipal court in Prizren. His

22 name is Bakic or something that sounds like it. I don't know what his

23 first name is. As far as I recall, he was found committing the act of

24 illicit trade together with some other people. I don't know exactly, but

25 I think there was a criminal report filed against him and others and you

Page 24220

1 can verify that. That's what I can recall offhand. As for his call-up

2 papers, it was merely a story. I think he was in detention, but he

3 disappeared. He hailed from Montenegro and the rumour had it that he

4 left for Montenegro. Another rumour would have us believe that he was on

5 a different task. As far as I remember, while I was in Prizren I did not

6 manage to establish his whereabouts.

7 Q. Okay. Let me ask you one more question before we break for the

8 evening then -- well, two questions. One, it sounds like you think there

9 was something shady or perhaps improper about his being released; is that

10 correct?

11 A. I have to tell you that at that time I was also in the capacity

12 of a policeman of sorts and I had my reasons to suspect that.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. However, I had no proof.

15 Q. I understand --

16 A. Had I had it, I would have brought him back.

17 Q. The very next bullet point it says: "In connection with this a

18 meeting with the judges was held and they were warned about such

19 conduct."

20 First of all, who met with the judges, was that you?

21 A. I think this is imprecise or maybe I was imprecise when speaking,

22 with the representatives of the court and the prosecutor's office, this

23 is who I met with, the president of the court and the prosecutor, that

24 is.

25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, if I may take two more minutes to

Page 24221

1 finish this point.

2 Q. And what was the warning that was given to the judges? What was

3 the nature of the warning?

4 A. It is certain that I had no right to warn because courts are

5 supposed to be independent. I asked them. Maybe when reporting I used

6 the word to warn or it was merely the recorder who noted that down. If

7 you're interested in the relation between the SUP and the prosecutor's

8 office, we are in no position to issue orders to each other.

9 Q. I understand --

10 A. And I never did.

11 Q. Let me stop there then.

12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, may we break there for the evening.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Vojnovic, we have to break there for this

14 evening and resume tomorrow. You will, I'm afraid, require to return

15 here to complete your evidence tomorrow afternoon at 2.00 -- sorry, 2.15.

16 Between now and then it is a strict rule that you should have no

17 communication with anyone, anyone at all, about the evidence in this case

18 or any aspect of the evidence in this case.

19 Now could you please leave the courtroom with the usher and we'll

20 see you again tomorrow at 2.15.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

24 March, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.