Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24917

 1                           Tuesday, 8 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Sainovic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good afternoon, everyone.  We shall resume this

 7     afternoon the evidence of Dragan Zivaljevic.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good afternoon, Mr. Zivaljevic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Cross-examination by the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis,

12     will continue in a moment.  Please bear in mind that the solemn

13     declaration to speak the truth which you gave at the very beginning of

14     your evidence continues to apply to your evidence today until it's

15     complete.

16             Mr. Hannis.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN ZIVALJEVIC [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

21        Q.   Welcome back, Colonel.  Last week, you spoke of an action that

22     some of your units engaged in in the Podujevo, area or actually in the

23     Palatna village area in May of 1999.  We looked at an order that provided

24     tasking for some of those units, and you pointed out to us that there was

25     a reference in that order to JSO, but you thought that was a mistake

Page 24918

 1     because you believed it was the SAJ that took part in that action.  You

 2     recall that?

 3        A.   Yes, I recall that.  I think it had to do with the SAJ rather

 4     than the JSO, and that was the mistake.

 5        Q.   Yes.  And I would have you take a look now at Exhibit 5D1070.  I

 6     can hand you a hard copy.  This is a combat report dated the 25th of May

 7     from Colonel Gergar about that action in the general area of Palatna, and

 8     he says that his brigade units were engaged in providing support to MUP

 9     and SAJ forces.  So that seems to be consistent with your memory that it

10     was the SAJ rather than the JSO that was engaged there and then?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   And do you recall who the commander of the SAJ forces engaged in

13     that action was?

14        A.   Commander of the SAJ forces was Zivko Trajkovic; however, I don't

15     remember.  He was injured by a mine near the village of Bradas.  I don't

16     remember now whether he had been injured before -- before.  I can't

17     remember who the commander then, though, who stood in for him in that

18     unit.

19        Q.   Okay.  Do you know who his deputy was in 1999?

20        A.   In 1999, a gentleman by the name of Stalovic [phoen], as far as I

21     can, remember was the deputy, and there was an assistant commander, Zoran

22     Simovic.  I assume that it was one of the two who was in the area.

23     That's my assumption.  I cannot make any assertions.

24        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let me move then to another document.  You

25     were asked about this last week, it's Exhibit 5D506, and I'll trade you

Page 24919

 1     hard copies with the help of the usher.  This is another VJ combat

 2     report, and this one is from the commander of the 354th.  It's dated the

 3     27th of April, and you were asked about this one.

 4             There's a reference to -- I think it's in paragraph 3(b), where

 5     it says:  "The redeployed units of PJP are in our unit's zone of

 6     responsibility and they are not complying with the orders and decisions

 7     of the Podujevo Crisis Staff."

 8             And you said, at page 24832, last week you thought this comment

 9     was arbitrary, but I want to ask you a specific question:  Do you know

10     what orders and decisions of the Podujevo Crisis Staff that refers to?

11     Do you know what kind of orders or decisions the Podujevo Crisis Staff

12     was issuing around April 1999?

13        A.   I can talk about the time after that.  It was afterwards that I

14     found out.  This document was signed by Radosavljevic.  I barely know the

15     gentleman.  Perhaps I met him only once or twice in the area.  I know

16     Mihajlo Gergar better who was the commander of another combat unit.

17     Later on, I heard that, in the municipality of Podujevo, they had set up

18     some kind of a Crisis Staff after the state of war was declared.  So I'm

19     aware of that detail, yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you some of these questions first.  So were you

21     aware in April 1999 that there was a Crisis Staff in Podujevo?

22        A.   You see, sometime in mid-April or around the 20th of April, there

23     was resubordination, and then the army took upon itself a more organized

24     role.  I assume that it was then that they established the Crisis Staff

25     too.  Of course, I joined in these activities.  Everything that the army

Page 24920

 1     ordered I implemented directly.

 2        Q.   Do you know who was on the Crisis Staff in Podujevo?  Do you know

 3     any of the people by name or by position?

 4        A.   I assume - well, I am not aware of the exact list - but I perhaps

 5     heard that it was Gergar Mihajlo; I assume that this Mr. Radosavljevic

 6     was there, too; and some members of the municipal administration.

 7        Q.   Did you attend any meetings of the Crisis Staff?

 8        A.   I showed up later at one of the meetings, but I did not know that

 9     that had been established at first.  But, later on, I showed up at one of

10     the meetings and we discussed the civilians, who at that time were

11     supposed to be deployed, or rather, to be sent back to the places that

12     they had fled from.  So it is in relation to these activities that I

13     joined in; and, later on, I saw these people more often?

14        Q.   Okay.  The meeting that you attended, do you recall when that

15     was, approximately?

16        A.   Well, I would have to link this meeting to the return of

17     civilians, after the civilians were on the move, when we talked about the

18     return of civilians to Podujevo.  So it is only that date that I could

19     link it up to.  If you allow me, I can find it somewhere.  In my

20     statement, I can find that date.

21        Q.   Well, let me move on to something else, and then maybe we'll come

22     back to it or Mr. Lukic will address it with you.  The return of

23     civilians, are you talking about Kosovo Albanians or Serbians or both?

24        A.   You see, Podujevo, for the most part, was populated by a majority

25     Albanian population.  There were few percentage points of non-Albanians.

Page 24921

 1     I believe that the Albanian people were a majority there.

 2        Q.   In an earlier answer today, you talked about, I guess, after the

 3     20th of April, you said:  "Everything that the army ordered I implemented

 4     directly."

 5             Why did you do that?  Did someone tell you that you were now

 6     subordinated to the army and you should do what they ordered?

 7        A.   Well, you see, since excerpts from the map were done by the army

 8     and I came there to implement the tasks that were envisaged in these

 9     excerpts, I carried out those tasks that had been envisaged there, in

10     those documents.

11        Q.   I'll come back to that in a little bit, Colonel, but let me

12     continue on following my notes for now.  Let me see if I can find another

13     exhibit.  This is 5D436, and in a minute I'll hand you a hard copy, but

14     I'll tell you that this is another VJ document.  It's a report about an

15     inspection tour, and let me hand you this hard copy in exchange for that

16     one.

17             I think you were shown this when you testified last week, and

18     it's a report by General Velickovic about his tour of the 354th Brigade.

19     And if you could look at item number -- well, it's heading number 3 and

20     then it's item number 9 under number 3.  It's on page 5 of the English

21     but I'm not sure what page it is in your B/C/S.  I didn't mark that.

22             Do you find that?

23        A.   I think I found it.  Point 9, page 4 in Serbian.

24        Q.   Yes, it says:  "There's no single command in the zone of

25     responsibility of the brigade."

Page 24922

 1             Is that the first sentence?

 2        A.    "In the zone of responsibility of the brigade, there is no

 3     singleness of command."  Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   My question had to do with the next sentence.  It said the

 5     brigade commander had dissatisfaction with the conduct of the PJP which

 6     didn't respect agreed times and axes of engagement.  Were you aware of

 7     any problem or failure on the part of the PJP to not respect agreed times

 8     and axes of engagement with the 354th Brigade?

 9        A.   My answer has to be a bit extensive.  On that previous day, I

10     gave an answer to that question.  I don't know who put it.  This is

11     completely incorrect.  I had barely seen this gentleman, perhaps once or

12     twice down there, and I had very little cooperation with him.  For the

13     most part, I cooperated with Mihajlo Gergar, Colonel Gergar; and, also,

14     there is a reference here to the PJP often resorting to looting, which is

15     totally improper.  Also, there is a reference to the great

16     dissatisfaction of soldiers over the fact that the MUP units are better

17     equipped.  Look at the argument he provides in relation to their units,

18     the equipment with communications and protection commitment.

19             Well, look, if he did notice that some crimes were being

20     committed, he should either have taken measures or told me about it.  He

21     shouldn't have concealed it, not reporting a crime is a crime in our

22     country, in Serbia, and we did take many measures against policemen who

23     had abused their positions.  I think that these arguments are completely

24     out of order and wrong.

25        Q.   That was a long answer.  Let me ask you a few questions to follow

Page 24923

 1     up.  Do you know were there, other than your PJP units from the 122nd,

 2     were there other PJP units that worked with the 354th Brigade during the

 3     war prior to late May 1999.  Is it possible he might be referring to some

 4     units other than yours?

 5        A.   In that area, the SAJ unit was engaged; and, at one point, facing

 6     Bajgora the JSO was involved.  And in view of the fact that the area of

 7     Podujevo is near Serbia, we had incursions by smaller groups from Serbia

 8     that took advantage of the fact that they were so nearby; and they would

 9     engage in crime, looting, et cetera, so we had sears problems with that.

10        Q.   But he seems to be talking particularly about the PJP, not about

11     the SAJ or the JSO.  Were there any other PJP units that were engaged

12     with the 354th, or was it exclusively personnel from your 122nd?

13        A.   Podujevo is an area that belongs to the broader area of

14     metropolitan Pristina.  There was a PJP unit there, the 124th; and from

15     time to time, they were engaged for some work.  I don't have a list of

16     such engagements, though.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, you also took issue with this complaint about

18     looting, and I know last week you were also shown a document that was

19     written by General Lazarevic in late May 1999, where he was complaining

20     about the MUP committing crimes, not just looting but more serious crimes

21     as well.  You can't speak for all police personnel, right?  You only have

22     knowledge about your units and those people that you were working side by

23     side with, right?

24        A.   Likewise, I state with full responsibility that there is even a

25     mention there of murders and rapes.  So I claim with full responsibility

Page 24924

 1     that, as for my knowledge, I was not aware of any murder or any rape.  As

 2     for some serious crimes, we did take measures and these persons were

 3     brought into custody.  These were policemen that we brought to justice.

 4        Q.   Yeah, I think you told us last week that you prosecuted -- your

 5     command prosecuted over 70 cases of abuse.  What were most of those 70

 6     cases, if you remember?

 7        A.   Well, I gave the figure of 70 as an approximate figure.  I'm not

 8     sure whether it's 67, 68, 72, 75, et cetera; however, in paragraph 18 of

 9     my statement, I describe a few cases when we filed crime -- criminal

10     reports against regular policemen from our unit who used their official

11     position as policemen and robbed an Albanian family.  I can give you --

12        Q.   Yeah, we have the statement.  Thank you.  Let me ask you about

13     call-signs.  You mentioned that you think your radio call-sign in 1999

14     was Lazar; is that right?

15        A.   That's right.  That's right.

16        Q.   When you were in Kosovo in 1998, do you recall what call-sign

17     your unit had?

18        A.   When we came, I think it was Bor and then another one, and then,

19     ultimately, it was Lazar.  I cannot say with any certainty when it was

20     that these changes took place.  It's been such a long time, too long a

21     time for me to be able to state anything specific now.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You were asked about your participation in an

23     action called Drenica 1.  I think that's the one that's reflected in

24     Exhibit 6D712.  You said you didn't personally participate in that one

25     but that your deputy Nikolic did.  You remember that?

Page 24925

 1        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 2        Q.   And when you returned to your location, he told you about a

 3     problem that had occurred.  He complained about the way he had been

 4     treated, I guess, by the VJ.  Where were you on that occasion?  Why

 5     weren't you involved in that action?  Where were you and what were you

 6     doing?

 7        A.   I was in the area of Podujevo.  A smaller unit was supposed to

 8     provide assistance in that area at that time, Drenica 1; and my deputy

 9     went there with two companies, I believe.  He reported to the army combat

10     group there, and he joined in the task that he was assigned to carry out.

11        Q.   Yes.  I think you told us last week, at page 24840, that Nikolic

12     complained when he got there with the two companies the army wanted to

13     assign him to two different axes, and it was difficult.  He couldn't do

14     that, and so there was a problem.  Did you write any report about what

15     had happened to Nikolic after that?  Did you write any report up the

16     chain to complain about that?

17        A.   When Nikolic came back from that area, as I've already

18     explained - if necessary, I can repeat it - I think that a military

19     combat group had not shown up, the 37th, I believe; and, therefore, he

20     was supposed to be deployed in an area that was too wide for him and his

21     forces.  So he complained about their attitude.  He carried out all the

22     tasks there in accordance with the command of the military commander who

23     was there.  At this moment, I don't know which military commander this

24     was.

25             I think that, in relation to this I complained, but orally, to

Page 24926

 1     Obrad Stevanovic when I saw him.  So it wasn't on those days but the days

 2     after that.  When I came across him, I complained about this attitude.  I

 3     said that this was not fair, and that such things should be avoided in

 4     the future.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Was that the first extent of your complaint about this,

 6     then, was the oral complaint you made to Obrad Stevanovic?  You didn't

 7     complain to anybody else, either orally or in writing?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, it was topical then, and that is when I

 9     stated that to General Stevanovic.  I do not recall anything else in

10     relation to that.  I do not remember having complained to anyone else.

11        Q.   With regard to reporting, Judge Bonomy had asked you a question

12     last week, at page 24843.  He said:  "When you were asked when the action

13     was over, did you write a report to the Joint Command or something?"

14             Then you said:  "We just filed a report."

15             "Now, where did you file it?"

16             You said:  "Not to the Joint Command.  When all activities were

17     completed, I filed a report to the police administration to the MUP in

18     Belgrade."

19             Do you know where that report would be now?

20        A.   I don't know with any certainty.  I wrote a brief report, a

21     summary of what it was that I was doing.  It is possible that in that

22     report I partly described the problem that you mentioned a while ago, and

23     I sent it to the first administration of the police; that is, an

24     organizational unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.  I don't know

25     whether it's still there.  I really cannot say.

Page 24927

 1        Q.   Do you remember did you also copy anyone else on that report,

 2     like a SUP chief or the MUP staff or anyone else?

 3        A.   No, no, no.  I did that in Belgrade.  The MUP staff remained in

 4     Pristina; that is to say, I couldn't have sent anything to them and I did

 5     not have an obligation to send that to the staff.

 6        Q.   You mention reporting to Obrad Stevanovic when you would see him.

 7     When and how often did you see him in 1999, during the time that you were

 8     there?  Would you see him once a week?  Every day?

 9        A.   Very seldom.  As far as I can remember, I attended perhaps one or

10     two meetings; and he, well, I don't dare say anything specific now, but I

11     don't think that he saw me more than twice in that area of Podujevo.  But

12     I did hear that he was on the move from time to time in certain locations

13     in Kosovo.

14        Q.   When Obrad Stevanovic was not around, who did you report to or

15     did you simply not report to anybody?

16        A.   I did not report to anybody.  I did not send reports.  On this

17     occasion, I said this to Obrad Stevanovic orally, as I said, because I

18     hoped that he would pass that on to the military officers at a higher

19     level.

20        Q.   So why did you not report?  You and your units were engaged in

21     actions in 1999.  Were you relying on the VJ to report about what your

22     MUP units had done in those actions or was nobody interested?  I don't

23     understand.

24        A.   Well, frankly, I wouldn't like to talk about the shortcomings of

25     the organizational aspect of all of this, but I know for sure about the

Page 24928

 1     army - they showed this to me - where they submitted reports, documents,

 2     to their command.  We were not duty-bound, we did not have that

 3     obligation; and, on the other hand, we had problems in terms of our

 4     capacity to communicate.  Soon the bombing started and the communications

 5     were severely impaired; and it was very difficult to communicate,

 6     especially towards the staff, the MUP, and some other services.

 7        Q.   You mentioned Friday - and we looked at the dispatch that sent

 8     you to Kosovo in March of 1999, and I think that was Exhibit 6D291 - and

 9     you've told us that prior to being sent down there in March 1999, you had

10     been there in January 1999.  But I think you told us you didn't have a

11     copy of that dispatch that sent you in January 1999, right?

12        A.   As for January, this is a period that was not included in this

13     dispatch; that is, the period when our forces were reduced in terms of

14     our presence down there.  In Decani, I was attached to the SUP to carry

15     out their regular tasks and duties with a small unit.

16        Q.   And -- but you don't have the document reflecting that dispatch,

17     right?  I think you told us you don't have a copy of that one.

18        A.   I certainly don't.

19        Q.   Who sent you that time, was that also General Djordjevic in

20     January 1999?

21        A.   The January task is something I took over from another person.  I

22     think there had been a unit in Decani as early as November and December

23     in shifts.  I came there for some 20 to 25 days as part of a shift to

24     work in the background of Decani and the monastery that is there, to

25     assist the SUP of Pec and Decani.  There was a dispatch which covered

Page 24929

 1     several shifts.

 2        Q.   My question is:  Do you recall, did that dispatch originate from

 3     Vlastimir Djordjevic?

 4        A.   I suppose that Vlastimir Djordjevic sent it to my chief of

 5     secretariat, who then conveyed the task to me, or he may have sent it

 6     directly; but I do believe that it came from the sector chief.

 7        Q.   Now, what about July 1998, you told us that you were sent down to

 8     Kosovo in July 1998.  Do you have a copy of whatever dispatch or document

 9     sent you there at that time?

10        A.   I'm sorry, I don't.

11        Q.   Do you know who that one came from?

12        A.   I think the basic rule is that the sector chief appoints and

13     sends people out.  As to whether he authorised anyone to draft that

14     dispatch, I don't know, but I was told by my secretariat chief to go and

15     attend to this task.

16        Q.   All right.  There was -- there were a few questions to you about

17     who your commander was in 1998 and 1999, and you mentioned that you knew

18     until 1997 that Obrad Stevanovic was the commander of the PJP, but you

19     seemed somewhat uncertain about whether he was still in that position in

20     1998 and 1999 because you mentioned that he had become an assistant

21     minister during that time-period, right?

22             If it was not Obrad Stevanovic, who was it?  Who else could it

23     have been?

24        A.   I said that, until 1977 [as interpreted], that he was appointed

25     as commander; later on, he was appointed assistant minister.  I don't

Page 24930

 1     know whether he retained his commanding position, since as the assistant

 2     minister, he was in charge of all uniformed police affairs in Serbia,

 3     which is one level up.

 4        Q.   Okay.  My question is:  Do you know who would have been in the

 5     level in between his position as an assistant minister and your position

 6     as commander of the 122nd Intervention Brigade?  Do you know?

 7        A.   Let me tell you, I think the staff was subordinate to that level

 8     of control as regards the sector chief and the chief of police affairs;

 9     however, I had no obligations towards the staff in the sense of command.

10     It was a consultative or a service sort of relationship in terms of

11     taking care of the wounded, notifying the families of those who had been

12     killed, and so on and so forth, or perhaps forwarding documents.

13        Q.   There's just one little error in the transcript I want to clear

14     up with you.  It has you down as saying:  "I said that, until 1977"

15     Stevanovic was appointed as commander; and later on ..."

16             It was 1997, I think, you told us before; not 1977, but 1997.  Is

17     that right?

18        A.   1997.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20              MR. HANNIS:  Yeah, if we could take a look at Exhibit 5D1418.

21        Q.   This is one that Mr. Bakrac, the lawyer for General Lazarevic,

22     showed you.  5D1418.

23             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go I think to the second page.  I don't

24     have it in English.

25        Q.   Do you remember looking at this one before?  I think there were a

Page 24931

 1     pair of telegrams, one from you and then one back to you.  Do you

 2     remember this?

 3        A.   I do.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to the next page in B/C/S, I think my

 5     question pertains to that one.

 6        Q.   And if I remember correctly, this was on the 26th of May 1999.

 7     You told us that this related to a humanitarian action regarding the

 8     return of civilians, but doesn't that say in there something about

 9     arresting all the men of military age?  Is that right?

10        A.   Not in this part; but if that was your question --

11        Q.   Was that on the previous page?  Did I get my pages mixed up?

12        A.   As far as I recall, there was a sentence like that; but, however,

13     I can still reply.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   As a part of the correspondence, when my radio man sent it out,

16     we received a reply.  I stated that there were some 150 armed combatants

17     of the KLA escorting the refugee groups in front or at the back from

18     Podujevo.  We had an exchange of correspondence to see where the refugees

19     should be returned to.  The fact that there were around 150 combatants

20     was also mentioned.

21             When we tried to approach the group, fire was opened on my

22     policemen.  We couldn't react since we could not open fire at the

23     civilians.  Those 150 were not arrested.  We had no possibility to do so.

24     They either discarded their weapons and mingled with the civilians or

25     they fled, and this is something we had to live with.

Page 24932

 1        Q.   So, on that occasion, did you then not arrest anybody, any

 2     military-aged men or otherwise?

 3        A.   No.  No one was arrested.  We transported a few families, some

 4     wounded, there was a woman about to deliver and our assistance was

 5     requested to take them to Podujevo.

 6        Q.   I would next like to show you an exhibit.  That's Exhibit P3130,

 7     and I'll hand you a hard copy.  This is the minutes of a meeting of the

 8     ministry staff for Kosovo held on the 2nd of November, 1998.  Am I right,

 9     you were not in Kosovo in November 1998; is that right?

10        A.   That is right.

11        Q.   I will ask you a couple questions anyway, just to see if you were

12     aware of this or heard about it either when you returned to Kosovo or in

13     conversations with colleagues in the PJP, because this meeting indicates

14     that the commanders of all the detachments attended.

15             On I think it's the second page of the document you have -- well,

16     wait a second.  On the first page you have, let me ask you first about

17     item number 6.  It's armoured vehicles and weapons of a calibre greater

18     than 7.9 millimetres must not be moved, engaged, or used without

19     agreement and permission from the staff.

20             Now, prior to this, when you were in Kosovo in July for two or

21     two and a half months, were there any limitations on your use in the PJP

22     of armoured vehicles or weapons of a calibre larger than 7.9 millimetres?

23        A.   Well, the PJP did not have -- I can tell you this:  There was a

24     police brigade as part of the SUP in brigade, and it had only one

25     armoured combat vehicle.  They also had a so-called TAB; I don't know how

Page 24933

 1     to explain that.  It was inoperative most of the time, and I think they

 2     had a Praga dating before World War II, a very old piece.  There were

 3     very few such pieces at the disposal of the PJP.  Save for the regular

 4     infantry weapons, we had the odd mortar or so, and that was the only

 5     thing that we could have at the time.

 6        Q.   How about when you returned in -- either in January 1999 or later

 7     in March 1999, did your PJP units have any armoured vehicles or weapons

 8     larger than 7.9 millimetres?

 9        A.   In that period before March we did not have any, for sure, except

10     for the handgun, the official handgun, it was 9 millimetres in calibre.

11     Later on, perhaps during the spring, we received several armoured

12     vehicles from the army.  I don't have that list with me; therefore, I

13     cannot be any more specific.

14        Q.   When you came back to Kosovo in January 1999 and then again in

15     March 1999, did you in your PJP unit have any dealings with members of

16     the KVM, the OSCE mission?

17        A.   Certainly.  In January, we had cooperation.  We had frequent

18     contacts.  There was also an incident of sorts in Decani.  When there was

19     a shift of policemen, they wouldn't take my word for it, and I asked them

20     to accompany us to see that there was a shift about to take place.  As it

21     happened, the Siptar terrorist forces opened fire at the column, and two

22     men from the OSCE were injured on that occasion.  I think it was the 14th

23     or the 15th of January in Decani.

24        Q.   If you could turn to the next page, I think it's the following

25     page for you.

Page 24934

 1             MR. HANNIS:  In English, I'm still on page 3 of the document, and

 2     I think it's page 4 of the B/C/S in e-court.

 3        Q.   Item number 8, do you see that?  It talks about:  "In villages

 4     with Serbian inhabitants, take additional protection measures ..."

 5             Then go down to the next sentence, where it says:  "Make sure

 6     that Serbs and members of the RPO," translated here as reserve police

 7     squads, "do not misuse weapons, let off guns at weddings, et cetera, do

 8     not carry weapons or show them in public in the presence of members of

 9     the mission."

10             It goes on:  "When on guard duty, use one weapon and prevent

11     individuals from bringing in the weapon they have been issued.  Tell them

12     not to state the fact that Serbs are armed and to explain this fact, if

13     they must, using the excuse that it is only members of the guard who are

14     armed."

15             Now, when you were back in Kosovo in January and then in March

16     1999, were you aware of this, that you should try and take steps not to

17     let the KVM mission know that Serbs, and I take this means Serbs other

18     than the VJ and the active-duty police, were armed?  Did you know about

19     that?

20        A.   I cannot tell you anything about the RPO.  I'm not familiar with

21     that area, and I have no knowledge of it.  While I was in Decani, there

22     were no Serbs in its environs, except for the monastery and the people

23     there.  In March when I arrived in Podujevo, there was several Serb

24     houses in Podujevo town itself, not outside.

25        Q.   The last thing I want to ask you about on this document is item

Page 24935

 1     number 10, which says:  "The MUP staff in Pristina will now take on the

 2     role of planning, and the secretariats will have greater independence in

 3     carrying out their regular actions or regular duties, tasks, and

 4     obligations ..."

 5             Then the last sentence says:  "Commanders and deputy-commanders

 6     will take command of the dispatched units - 'A' units of the PJP - and

 7     all units come under the secretariats."

 8             What was the situation when you came back to Kosovo in January

 9     1999 and then in March 1999 in terms of the relationship between the PJP

10     and the SUPs?  Were the PJPs independent or did they report to the SUPs?

11     How did that work?

12        A.   In January, whenever I could, I attended the collegium meetings

13     of the SUPs of Pec and Decani.  Daily, I visited the Decani OUP.  I had

14     immediate contact with them since we carried out our regular police

15     duties.  There were no actions at that time.  In March, we had certain

16     things planned but could not see them through, because soon we saw the

17     commencement of air-strikes and we changed our work mode as well as

18     launched different actions.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let me move on then to another meeting.  This

20     is --

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Hannis.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  This is quite an extensive cross-examination.  The

24     law of diminishing returns does appear to be setting in.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I think I --

Page 24936

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  I mean, the last couple of answers really weren't

 2     answers that were of any assistance to us at all.  The statements are

 3     clear in the documents.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I have about six additional documents I

 5     wanted to ask him about.  I'll try and be done in 15, 20 minutes.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.  Thank you.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   The next one I want to ask you about, Colonel, is Exhibit P1990.

 9     This is a MUP staff meeting on the 17th of February.  I can hand you a

10     hard copy of this one as well.  Do you recall, were you still in Kosovo

11     at this time, in February of 1999?

12        A.   No.  I was there in January and returned by that time.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   I don't recall being at this meeting.

15        Q.   All right.  Then let me show you Exhibit P1989, and this one I

16     believe you will be familiar with.  I'll hand you a hard copy of this

17     one.  This is from the 4th of April, 1999.  This is a meeting of the

18     senior police officials in Kosovo and Metohija with the chiefs of the

19     SUPs and the detachment commanders, and it also lists the SAJ and JSO

20     commanders, General Stevanovic and General Lukic.

21             Do you recall this meeting?  You're mentioned on page 3 as having

22     spoken.

23        A.   That's right.  I remember being at that meeting.

24        Q.   And you see on page 3 - that's page 3 of the English and page 3

25     of the B/C/S - you mention that the task has been fully completed.  The

Page 24937

 1     territory is under control.  You say refugees were going towards

 2     Medvedja?  Where is Medvedja?  I couldn't find that on my map.  Is that

 3     in Serbia or is that in Kosovo?

 4        A.   Medvedja is in the direction of Serbia towards Vranje.  That

 5     would be it more or less.

 6        Q.   Is it actually in Serbia?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   And were these refugees you're referring to, are those Serbian

 9     refugees or Kosovo Albanians or both?

10        A.   I can't say with any degree of certainty, but I think they were

11     Albanians.

12        Q.   Okay.  You see, right below, there's an entry for Zivko Trajkovic

13     as the SAJ commander; and, below him, Radislav Staljevic the SAJ

14     commander in Pristina; below that, there's an entry translated in English

15     as Milorad Jankovic, JSO commander.  Do you remember a JSO commander

16     being at this meeting?

17        A.   I cannot remember him being there, but I do see there is an

18     error.  JSO commander is not Jankovic, as stated here, but Lukovic.

19        Q.   And we've heard other evidence about the JSO commander being the

20     man that we have called by the nickname Legija.  Is that the same person

21     you're talking about?

22        A.   I suppose so; although, there may have been a Milorad Jankovic

23     standing in, but his name was Milorad Lukovic, a.k.a. Legija.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall if Legija was at this meeting?

25        A.   I saw him during that year on several occasions; but if it is in

Page 24938

 1     the document, I suppose it's true.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm just trying to figure out if this is a typographical

 3     error and it should say Milorad Lukovic, or if there really was somebody

 4     named Milorad Jankovic in the JSO that attended this meeting, if you

 5     know?

 6        A.   I know Milorad Lukovic, a.k.a. Legija.  I don't know any Milorad

 7     Jankovic, and I suppose it was a typo.

 8        Q.   Let me ask you next about Exhibit P2011.  This is from the 20th

 9     of May, 1999, and it's from the Pristina Corps command signed by Colonel

10     Kotur.  This is an order for an operation called Sekac.  Have you seen

11     this document before coming here to testify?

12        A.   I don't remember having seen this document.

13        Q.   Okay.  If you could look at item number 5.1, I think it's on page

14     4 of the English and I think it's on page 4 of the B/C/S as well.  It's

15     task for units, and item 5.1 is for the 122nd MUP Detachment of a

16     strength of three PJP companies.  Did you find that?

17        A.   I did.

18        Q.   Do you remember this action and whether or not parts of your

19     122nd took part in it?

20        A.   I have to add something.  In that area, it was Bosko Buha who

21     commanded that part of the detachment, and there was his assistant

22     Vladimir Ilic.  I wasn't there.  This is quite remote from Podujevo, and

23     I have no insight of these activities.

24        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Then I just have two final documents I want to

25     ask you about.  The first one is Exhibit number 6D1023.  I'll hand you a

Page 24939

 1     hard copy.  This is entitled:  "Joint forces engagement plan."  Military

 2     secret attachment number 2, Pristina Corps command 25 April 1999.  Did

 3     you see this document before coming into court to testify?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I know it's a technical point and I know the

 7     Prosecution did supplement their list for cross-examination I believe

 8     just this morning, but this document was neither on the original list nor

 9     on the supplemental list, to my knowledge.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, it was on a supplemental list I

11     received from the Defence as one they were going to use in their direct

12     examination.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I stand corrected then.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

15             Please continue, Mr. Hannis.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

17        Q.   I'm sorry, Colonel, did you hear my question?  Did you have a

18     chance to see this document before you came into court to testify?

19        A.   I've never seen this document.

20        Q.   Okay.  You'll see there are three headings across the top:

21     Combined operations unit, which list what appear to be VJ units; then

22     there's a column called reinforcements, which have primarily what appear

23     to be either border guard units or military district units and deployed

24     volunteers; and the third column says resubordinated forces executing

25     tasks.

Page 24940

 1             Do you see that third column?  You'll see, under item number 1

 2     with the 125th Motorised Brigade, that the 122nd Intervention Brigade is

 3     listed.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   I see it in item 1, the third column.

 5        Q.   Yes, yes.  Do you recall, in or around the 25th of April, 1999,

 6     whether some parts of your 122nd Intervention Brigade were executing

 7     tasks with the 125th Motorised Brigade?

 8        A.   No, no.  It was probably the part of the detachment that had to

 9     do with Pec, Bosko Buha, because this is something that I'm totally

10     unfamiliar with.

11        Q.   Okay.  If you could go to the second page, then, there in the

12     third column, there are four additional references to the 122nd

13     Intervention Brigade.  You'll see, item number 7, the 252nd Armoured

14     Brigade.  Do you recall, in late April 1999, were elements of the 122nd

15     engaged in tasks with the 252nd?

16        A.   No.  But in item 10, with the 211th, perhaps I could find

17     activities of the detachment that I was in.

18        Q.   And how about under item number 9, with the 15th Armoured

19     Brigade, or item number 12, with the 354th?

20        A.   Under number 9, I don't see the 354th.  I don't see that written

21     anywhere, and I don't recognise these other units under number 9.

22        Q.   Under number 9, the 15th Armoured Brigade, is the VJ unit.

23        A.   No, no.  I'm unfamiliar with that, too, that which is under

24     number 9.

25        Q.   But number 12, the 354th, that you told us before was a unit that

Page 24941

 1     you did have some engagement with, right, because we saw that document

 2     where there were complaints about the PJP from the commander in the

 3     354th?

 4        A.   That's right.  I've already answered that question, and then

 5     there's the 211th Armoured Brigade that I cooperated with.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Did you know Goran Guri Radosavljevic?

 7        A.   I knew him.  I knew him.  I knew Mr. Radosavljevic.

 8        Q.   What was his position or what was his job, first of all, in July

 9     of 1998, do you know?

10        A.   As far as I can remember, he was appointed as member of the staff

11     for training, the training of PJP units.

12        Q.   Okay.  And how about in 1999, do you know what his position was?

13        A.   I think that he continued with those activities, as far as I

14     know, but I saw him very seldom.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.

16             MR. HANNIS:  I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

19             Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I would

21     have some additional questions based on the cross-examination by

22     Mr. Hannis.  It only has to do with two topics:  The topic of

23     resubordination that was dealt with today and this other topic that I

24     think you were surprised by, too; I mean the answer that was provided on

25     Thursday in relation to that particular order of the Pristina Corps that

Page 24942

 1     allegedly the witness received through the MUP staff.  So one or two

 2     questions respectively with regard to these two subjects.

 3     Resubordination, today we heard something completely different.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  These arise only if you say that something the

 5     witness has said in this cross-examination has adversely affected the

 6     case for your Defence; is that the position?

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That is what I

 8     say with regard to both matters.  They adversely affect our Defence case

 9     because it was my understanding that today on page 1 -- on page 5, lines

10     1 through 5, the witness said --

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  Please continue and let's see what emerges.

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zivaljevic, if you remember on Thursday,

15     during my examination and on transcript page 24858, lines 19 through 21,

16     I asked you whether Colonel Gergar had command over you.  Your answer was

17     that you would not call that command, that he did not command you, that

18     you only cooperated with him.

19             Immediately after, that on page 24859, lines 1 -- lines 2, 3, 4,

20     I asked you whether at any point in time, in 1998 or in 1999, you were

21     resubordinated to the army and to Colonel Gergar.  You said no, quite

22     literally, "no, I only cooperated with him and I listened to his

23     opinions."

24             Today you said to us, on page 5/1, that you came to Kosovo on

25     orders; and when these maps were issued, you were resubordinated to the

Page 24943

 1     Army of Yugoslavia.  When was it that you were not telling the truth, on

 2     Thursday or today?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I object to the form of the question.  If he's going

 4     to ask a question, he's going to have to ask a legitimate question, not

 5     in that type of form where he's essentially making arguments.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, this sort of additional

 7     cross-examination should be confined to a very pointed question.  Now,

 8     what is the question you want to ask?  We don't want to hear your

 9     arguments at this stage.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

11        Q.   My question is whether at any point of time you were

12     resubordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia or the commander of the 211th

13     Armoured Brigade?

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just one second.  Your quotation from today's

15     evidence was that he said he was resubordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia

16     on page 5, line 1.  Now, let's look at page 5, line 1.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Up until 5, Your Honour.  Your

18     Honour, it's line 3 -- or rather, 1 through 3, sorry, and 4 and 5 --

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Give us a moment.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]  -- or rather, 4 and 5.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, this isn't a suitable area for further

23     cross-examination by you.  The answers that the witness has given we will

24     look at in the overall context and evaluate his evidence.  You don't,

25     just because he says something slightly different or in any way different

Page 24944

 1     from earlier, automatically have the right to re-cross-examine.  That

 2     would mean that we would be going back and forward across the courtroom

 3     forever.

 4             Now, let's hear what your next matter is, but I suspect none of

 5     them are appropriate for further cross-examination.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  I will

 7     try, and I hope this will be more appropriate.

 8        Q.   Mr. Zivaljevic, on Thursday, you said to us that you received

 9     plans --

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  This isn't the way to go about this.  If you have

11     a specific question you want to put that requires to be answered so that

12     you can avoid prejudice, then put it; but don't let's have a narrative of

13     the competing versions of the evidence and then an assertion by you that

14     one or other must be right and the other wrong.  That's not the way to do

15     this.  It doesn't sound to me as though you are doing anything other than

16     trying to argue a case at this stage, rather than seek answers that will

17     help us to come to an accurate determination of the evidence.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to show a

19     document and put one single question; after that, I will have no further

20     questions.  The document is 6D291.  It's a dispatch of the assistant

21     minister, chief of the public security sector, Vlastimir Djordjevic.  On

22     several occasions today and earlier on, the witness said that he'd like

23     to have this before him, so I would like to have it displayed to the

24     witness on the screen, and he can tell me then --

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  The witness had it before him on Thursday, didn't

Page 24945

 1     he, and that's the dispatch sending him to Kosovo?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And after that,

 3     during the cross-examination by Mr. Hannis on Thursday - that's what I

 4     was trying to explain to you - he said that he received orders and maps

 5     in an envelope from the MUP staff and that he worked on the basis of this

 6     dispatch.  He acted on the basis of the dispatch that was sent -- that

 7     sent him to Kosovo.

 8             So my question is for him to have a look at the dispatch and tell

 9     us where there are instructions by the assistant minister telling him

10     that he should act in accordance with military plans.  That's my only

11     question, nothing further.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, this is a situation where the document

14     was available to the Defence of Mr. Lazarevic.  I think they even

15     introduced the document or had it on their list.  It was used with the

16     witness, and they clearly had an opportunity to present their

17     cross-examination at that point in time.  It would appear that they're

18     trying to basically sideline the regular procedures in this case and have

19     a second bite at the apple.  I don't think they're permitted.

20             Secondly, if they're going to rely on representations about what

21     the witness did or didn't say in order to try and have a second bite at

22     this apple, I would request that they give precise quotations to the

23     record of all their assertions, as the prior assertion in this case, the

24     transcript page that showed, did not say what they perhaps thought it to

25     say.

Page 24946

 1             So I think we should have a full picture if, in fact, they have a

 2     grounds for asking further questions at this stage, but I submit they do

 3     not insofar as the document was available to them, and this is clearly

 4     not something new that has come up to them.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  More importantly than any of that, the document is

 7     there for us to read and to draw our own inferences from the document.

 8     So we will not allow further cross-examination on that basis, Mr. Bakrac.

 9             Now, Mr. Ivetic, is there re-examination?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, there is, Your Honour.  We still have -- we're

11     going until quarter to in this session; is that correct?

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

15        Q.   Mr. Zivaljevic, I do have some questions arising from your

16     cross-examination these past few days, to clarify some things.  First of

17     all, last week, when my colleague Mr. Bakrac asked you about uniforms,

18     this is at the 11th page of that transcript from Thursday, lines 9

19     through 19, it is recorded as follows.

20             The question was:  "Mr. Zivaljevic, could you please be so kind

21     as to tell me the members of your detachments wore what kind of uniforms?

22             "A.  Well, it depended on the period, the time-period in which

23     they took part.  As far as I can remember, in the period of 1998, for the

24     most part they wore camouflage uniforms for urban actions; that is, the

25     grey-blue camouflage.  Towards the end of that year when these uniforms

Page 24947

 1     could be issued, then green camouflage uniforms were issued.  These were

 2     uniforms that were used subsequently after that in 1999.

 3             "Q.  So you had grey camouflage as well?

 4             "A.  Before that during 1999, sometime up until the autumn, I

 5     cannot say with certainty that it was grey camouflage uniforms."

 6             And at paragraph 8 of your statement, you described the uniforms

 7     that are worn, and the question I have for you is:  What did you

 8     precisely mean with the reference to grey-blue camouflage uniforms and

 9     grey camouflage uniforms in this exchange with Mr. Bakrac that is

10     recorded in the transcript?

11        A.   Please, I meant blue-grey camouflage uniforms.  I probably said

12     grey-blue, but it doesn't really make a difference.  Blue-grey camouflage

13     uniforms, definitely.  Blue-grey camouflage uniforms.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, one other matter came up.  Actually, Mr. Hannis also

15     made reference to it.  If I was smart, I would have put down the updated

16     translate pages, and inserted lines from the ones that are on my version

17     of LiveNote.

18             But at page 47, at lines 5 through 10, the questioning from the

19     honourable Judge Bonomy, you were asked about the reports, and you said

20     you filed a report to the police administration in the MUP building.  The

21     question I have for you is:  When did you file this report that you

22     mentioned in response to the Judge's question?

23        A.   After all these activities, we submitted a brief report to the

24     police administration.

25        Q.   Would that have been -- would that have been in the course of the

Page 24948

 1     war, before or after the withdrawal?  Can you pin it down any more

 2     specifically in terms of the time-period?

 3        A.   After returning to Belgrade, since we did not have the right

 4     conditions, we didn't have an office out in the field, we didn't have the

 5     necessary facilities, we went back to Belgrade, we wrote that up, and

 6     submitted it.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  That still doesn't answer when, does it?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I agree, it does not, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Can you -- well, let me try and direct it this way.  If we focus

11     on the end of the war, June of 1999, do you know whether this report was

12     authored by you before or after the end of the war?

13        A.   Well, I assume - I don't know the exact date - but I assume that

14     it's in June, the end of June, or perhaps the beginning of July 1999.

15        Q.   Okay.  Today, Mr. Hannis asked you about Exhibit P3130 and the

16     statement relating to movements of armoured vehicles with guns in excess

17     of 7.9 millimetres.

18             Are you at all familiar with the types of vehicles foreseen for

19     police patrols by the Byrnes-Djordjevic agreement for the time period

20     when the KVM was in Kosovo and Metohija?

21        A.   If I'm not mistaken, this is the period from October 1998 until

22     March; is that right?  As far as I can remember, since I did spend a

23     shift in Decani, in Kosovo --

24        Q.   Hang on.  Stay close to my question.  My question is very

25     specific.  Are you familiar with the types of vehicles foreseen by -- for

Page 24949

 1     police patrols by the so-called Byrnes-Djordjevic agreement for the

 2     time-period during the KVM mission in Kosovo and Metohija?

 3        A.   I think I am aware of that.

 4        Q.   And --

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Is that agreement exhibited?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  It is, Your Honour.  I just don't have the exhibit

 7     number.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  So do you need to ask the witness if your point is

 9     consistency?

10             MR. IVETIC:  To find out the witness's knowledge so that I can

11     perhaps ask the next --

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Does his knowledge matter?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Well, as far as the Prosecution asked him what his

14     knowledge was of this particular -- or these particular facts, I think it

15     does matter.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  But what he told you was that the detachment from

17     Belgrade was so ill-equipped that it didn't have these vehicles and

18     equipment anyway.  However --

19             MR. IVETIC:  And if that is the only inference that is presented

20     by the Prosecution from this document, then I don't have any questions,

21     but I suspect it's not.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.  Continue.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Do you know the role of Mr. Mijatovic from the MUP staff in

25     Pristina vis-a-vis the Kosovo Verification Mission during the time-period

Page 24950

 1     it was on the ground over there?

 2        A.   Well, I cannot give you any comments on that.  I am not very

 3     familiar with what it was that he was doing.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at -- today, at page 19, lines 1 through 4, you

 5     were responding to a question posed by Mr. Hannis of whether PJPs were

 6     independent or did they report to the SUPs.

 7             You said in lines -- page 19, lines 1 through 4:  "There were no

 8     actions at that time.  In March, we had certain things planned but could

 9     not see them through, because soon we saw the commencement of air-strikes

10     and changed our work mode as well as launched different actions."

11             When you say you launched different actions, what actions are you

12     referring to?

13        A.   When I came to Podujevo, an excerpt from the map was waiting for

14     me there, telling me what it was that I was supposed to do there.

15     Actions started, therefore, and I got involved in my work in relation to

16     that task.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Now, at -- last week, on Thursday, Mr. Bakrac showed you Exhibit

20     P1990, minutes of a meeting at the MUP staff dated the 17th of February,

21     1999, and he asked you to read the portion of that, wherein it states

22     that the staff is planning to carry out or plans to carry out once

23     ordered actions in the region of Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica.

24             I'd like to take a look at two documents in this regard.

25             MR. IVETIC:  First off, if we can have Exhibit Number 4D365.

Page 24951

 1        Q.   As you will see, this is a document from the command of the 3rd

 2     Army dated the 1st of February, 1999.  If we look at item number 5 on the

 3     second page, you could read that entire portion to us, so that we're on

 4     the --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah, it should be the second page of both copies I

 6     believe.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, there must be a purpose in this, Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  There is, indeed.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Is this a document the witness is familiar with?

10             MR. IVETIC:  It refers to regions that I'm hoping that the

11     witness is familiar with, since the Prosecution asked him about a meeting

12     that he was not present -- pardon me, that Mr. Bakrac asked him about a

13     meeting he was not present for and asked him about actions in a

14     particular area.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I'm trying to figure out whether the witness has any

17     knowledge of the areas listed in this document because I believe there's

18     a connection I'm about to show.

19        Q.   Mr. Zivaljevic, looking at item 5, we have it both on the screen

20     in Serbian and English, so you don't need to read it out loud, but please

21     review it for yourself.  We see that the Pristina Corps command is

22     responsible to draft a plan and to ensure coordination with units of the

23     Republic of Serbia MUP for the region Drenica, Lab, and Malisevo.

24             How does this geographical region compare to the area that was

25     the cited in the minutes of the meeting of the MUP staff, which again

Page 24952

 1     from the testimony -- from the documents shown to you by Mr. Bakrac has

 2     Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica?

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.  This is a

 4     leading question.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  We'll repel that objection.  It's not a leading

 7     question.  It's a question designed to clarify what may otherwise remain

 8     unclear.

 9             So you may answer the question, Mr. Zivaljevic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Briefly, the command of the

11     Pristina Corps will draft a plan, and it has to do with the areas of

12     Drenica, Lab, and Malisevo.  Lab is Malo Kosovo above Podujevo, except

13     that the name is called differently in one way of speaking and

14     differently in this other way of speaking.  There is no further comment

15     that I can make.  So I got involved in these tasks in accordance with

16     this.

17             May I add something?  I beg your pardon.  When I arrived, that

18     task was waiting for me there, and I was carrying out directly work

19     envisaged under this task in the area of Lab or Malo Kosovo.  Let me be

20     specific on that.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   If we can then move, we see from this document --

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can we relate that to what is also described as

24     Dragobilje?  Does that mean anything to you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not Dragobilje.  Malo

Page 24953

 1     Kosovo, Malo Kosovo.  Lab or Malo Kosovo, that's the area.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Do you know what region Dragobilje is?  Is there another name for

 6     the region Dragobilje, if you know?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I really don't know that.

 8        Q.   If we can have -- you see that the dead-line for this planning by

 9     the Pristina Corps command is the 15th of February, 1999, and if we can

10     look at another document P2808.

11        A.   I see it now.  I saw it just now.  I beg your pardon.

12        Q.   Sorry.  You just saw what now?

13        A.   The dead-line, that's what you asked me about again.

14        Q.   And looking at this document from the Pristina Corps command

15     dated the 16th of February, 1999, for breaking up and destroying the STS

16     in the region of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo; and, again, I ask

17     you to take a -- we have the same -- if we could take a closer look at

18     page 5 of the Serbian, paragraph 5.1, this is the assignments for units.

19             Do you recognise any of the assignments listed herein?

20        A.   I do.  I recognise the unit and that part of the task.

21        Q.   You say you recognise the unit and the part of the task.  Do you

22     recognise these as being tasks of a particular unit?

23        A.   Yes.  5/1 TT 211 from the area of deployment, that pertains to

24     the unit -- excuse me, the unit commanded by Mihajlo Gergar.  Kursumlija

25     is the southern-most town in Serbia proper in the direction of Podujevo.

Page 24954

 1     Palatna, Kursumlijska, Banja, and so forth, and Luzane, Donja Lapastica,

 2     Donja Obranca, that's above Podujevo.  I participated in that part

 3     according to the task I had.  In the second part, where it says "task,"

 4     it says:  "Together, with the forces of the 22nd Detachment of the PJP

 5     and the SAJ of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, carry out an attack,"

 6     and so on and so forth.

 7        Q.   No need for you to read any further.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, we're at the break.  I apologise

 9     for overriding.  I still have a handful of questions, but it will be

10     brief within ten, 15 minutes or so after the break.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  When you say your instructions were awaiting you

12     when you arrived in Podujevo, who did these instructions come from?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a map excerpt.  When I

14     met with the military group commander Gergar, he explained the task

15     professionally to me, and that was the initial part.  After that, I began

16     working on that task directly.  I was engaged in that part of the task

17     directly, the task that was envisaged.  It is this task that we have on

18     the screen.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Who did you actually receive the map excerpt from?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My courier came back with it.  I

22     suppose it came through the staff.  My courier went there and brought the

23     excerpt back.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

25             We need to have a break again at this stage, Mr. Zivaljevic, that

Page 24955

 1     will be for 20 minutes.  Could you leave the courtroom and we will resume

 2     at ten past 4.00.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Hannis, you wanted to raise something in the

 7     absence of the witness?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  I did, Your Honour.  Thank you.  It pertains to a

 9     matter that's been discussed just recently on the re-direct.  It relates

10     to Exhibit P2808, which is the Pristina Corps command document from

11     General Lazarevic dated the 16th of February, 1999, regarding operations

12     in the area of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo.  There is a related

13     document.  What I'd like is either a brief application asking you if I

14     can ask the witness five questions or suggesting to the Court that you

15     may want to ask him a question about the document.

16             I'm afraid that this witness is in a unique position to address

17     something about this document based on an answer he gave Thursday, when

18     Mr. Bakrac asked him at page 24856, line 21, and for those who don't have

19     the updated it was page 60, line 7 on Thursday.

20             Mr. Bakrac said:  "So in March you had documentation pertaining

21     to all the actions all the way until the end of June, right, is that what

22     you're trying to tell us?"

23             The answer was:  "I want to tell you that I knew about an action

24     which was of a broader spectre, three larger actions pertaining to Malo

25     Kosovo, Drenica, and another action that I can't remember just now.  This

Page 24956

 1     activity was carried out by the Pristina Corps.  They prepared the

 2     documentation.  I read that documentation."

 3             There's another exhibit 6D716.  Which was on the notification I

 4     received for the 65 ter notification for the witness Adamovic, the next

 5     witness to come.  I think Friday we asked to get the English translation,

 6     because in e-court it was listed as denied for us, not through any fault

 7     of the Defence, but apparently there was some glitch, and we were only

 8     able to receive it this morning.  It is a document dated the 19th of

 9     February, 1999, entitled:  "MUP staff," unsigned, just listed as the

10     commander, but it is an order to break up and destroy forces of the STS

11     in the sector of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo with specific tasks

12     for specific MUP units.

13             I think this might be the document that this witness said:  "I

14     read this documentation."  I would either like to ask him that question

15     or ask the Court to show him that document and ask him:  Is that the

16     document you read?  That's my application, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Why was it you didn't raise P2808 in your

18     cross-examination?

19             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I didn't think that was what he had

20     seen, because I read 2808 as mostly talking about tasks for VJ units, and

21     I -- I didn't do a very good job of analysing that.  I didn't ask him

22     about that.  I did get the translation of this this morning, but I didn't

23     make the connection to what he said about having read that documentation

24     until this discussion took place.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  I maybe misunderstood what you're saying here.

Page 24957

 1     You're not asking for an opportunity to ask more questions about P2808?

 2             MR. HANNIS:  No.  I think he's been answering questions about

 3     that.  I just want to ask him about 6D716.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  If I can give some assistance on 6D716.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I note now, pulling this up, I'm surprised to hear

 7     Mr. Hannis mention it was entitled "the MUP staff."  And pulling up the

 8     English translation, it appears that that's what the English translation

 9     says.  It says the Serbian however, says "komanda MUPa," which I think

10     even for those who don't speak Serbian is the "command of the MUP" or

11     "the MUP command."  So I think that should be clear, if, indeed, that is

12     an issue.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Do you object in the circumstances to Mr. Hannis

14     having an opportunity to ask about 6D716?

15             MR. IVETIC:  It's going to open up a whole new area of

16     questioning for me.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we interrupt your examination for that

18     purpose.  Do you object to that?

19             MR. IVETIC:  No.  I mean, I don't know what grounds I would have

20     to object, apart from the fact that he's already had an opportunity to do

21     so and he did have that exhibit.  That was one of the exhibits that was

22     on the amended notification for cross-examination.  So they had the

23     exhibit, they had the witness, and they didn't ask questions about it.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, he is saying that he couldn't open that, and

25     it was intimated in relation to the next witness.

Page 24958

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And that he was able to open it this morning with

 2     the translation, so they've had time.  I mean, I --

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Bakrac, do you oppose Mr. Hannis having the

 4     opportunity to ask about 6D716?

 5             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do not, Your Honour, given that it

 6     is a MUP document.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  In light of what's developed here, I shall ask the

10     witness about 6D716.  So he may now return to the court, and while he's

11     returning put 6D716 on the screen, please.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13                           Questioned by the Court:

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Zivaljevic, on Thursday, when you were being

15     questioned by Mr. Bakrac, the issue arose of the documentation available

16     to you in March, and he asked you whether you had documentation

17     pertaining to all the actions all the way until the end of June.

18             Your answer was that you knew about an action that was of a

19     broader nature, three larger actions, pertaining to Malo Kosovo, Drenica,

20     and another action that you said you couldn't remember.

21             Now, I want you to look at the document which is in front of you

22     on the screen now, and tell me if that is in any way connected with that

23     answer that you gave on Thursday.

24        A.   In this order, this is a document I cannot -- the header says

25     "MUP command," and it is an order to break-up and destroy forces of

Page 24959

 1     Albanian terrorists in the sector of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo.

 2     I recognise the parts referred to.  Malo Kosovo is north of Kosovo, and

 3     then Drenica and Malisevo.  But I'm confused by the heading saying "MUP

 4     command."  I am not familiar with that.

 5             The Malo Kosovo action, when I came, that is something I took

 6     part in as well.  I worked in accordance with the map excerpt that I

 7     received via the courier, and the commander of the combat group who

 8     awaited me there met me to explain to me the task itself.  Following the

 9     order he had, I implemented the task.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you now look, please, at paragraph 5.1,

11     which is on page 4 of the English.  Do you recognise that task?

12        A.   Yes, I can recognise it.  The 22nd Detachment of the PJP, this

13     being the detachment I commanded, from the area of deployment to be

14     brought to the line next to villages Donja Repa, Prepolac, and Donja

15     Lapastica.  I recognise the villages mentioned in this task.  I also

16     recognise BG 211, the combat group.  It says, a pincer attack or

17     enveloping attack should be executed along the axis, so on and so forth.

18     I recognise that detail, as well as the villages referred to.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can you remember in what form you received your

20     instructions to undertake that task?

21        A.   I received the map excerpt on which the axes of units were

22     marked.  Mr. Gergar explained, based on the document when I arrived

23     there, all of the axes of movement and the way the task was to be

24     executed.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  So when you said on Thursday that you knew about

Page 24960

 1     three larger actions and that you read the documentation, can I take it

 2     from your answers it wasn't this particular document which is on the

 3     screen at the moment?

 4        A.   I recognised the actions, but I did not recognise the detail I

 5     referred to from the header of the document, at the very beginning of the

 6     document.  I'm not familiar with that.  However, as for the text, I do

 7     recognise that these were the actions I had in mind.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Hannis, do you want to prompt me to ask

 9     anything else?

10             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, only perhaps to inquire when he said he

11     read the documentation, whether he was referring only to maps or did he

12     read something additional, if not this document some other document.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can you help us with that, Mr. Zivaljevic?

14        A.   Definitely so.  I received the map excerpt.  The document that

15     the commander of the combat group had had a body of text describing the

16     task.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  That doesn't quite answer the question.  In

18     addition to the map, did you actually receive a document with a body of

19     text on it?

20        A.   As far as I recall, when I arrived in Podujevo, I received a

21     written notification on where the meeting was to be held with the

22     military commander, this being Mr. Mihajlo Gergar and the combat group

23     211.  He organized the briefing at which he explained the task with the

24     details as set out in this document.  Now that you have shown me this

25     document, I can tell you that I agree with this part concerning the

Page 24961

 1     engagement of forces in item 5, and I recognise all the details.

 2     However, I do not recognise the header of the document; that is a

 3     discrepancy.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 5             Now, Mr. Bakrac, does that raise any issues for you?

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Ivetic.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:  [Continued]

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  You've already asked the

11     witness my first question relating to this document.

12             First of all, I'd like to have the usher's assistance.  Maybe

13     this will short-circuit the cross-examination.  I'd like to show the

14     witness a copy of P2808 and 6D716 side by side.  I have hard copies of

15     those two exhibits.  Maybe if we can put one on the ELMO, except that

16     they're in Serbian.  Well, that way we can have one on e-court and one on

17     the ELMO for the rest of the persons in the courtroom following.

18        Q.   My question is going to be very simple, sir, for the first

19     question at least.  The Prosecution has shown you this Exhibit 6D716

20     purportedly from the MUP command.  If we can have you compare the first

21     page of this exhibit with P2808, the order from the Pristina Corps, and

22     if I could just have you make any comment on whether, in fact, the

23     introductory text for these two exhibits --

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.  Objection,

25     Your Honour.  We can compare the documents ourselves.  The issue at hand

Page 24962

 1     is whether the witness ever saw this document and what it is that he can

 2     tell us about it.  He's not an expert to compare.  We can do that for

 3     ourselves.  We have both the documents in the system.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  There seems to be force in that, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Well, the point being, though, that in Serbian it

 6     may be true; but in English, when translations of two documents are done

 7     by two different translators, sometimes there are slight nuances in it.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, that's a matter that should be submitted

 9     again to CLSS; and if you wish us to do that, we'll do it now.  You're

10     concerned about the heading in 6D716?

11             MR. IVETIC:  Aside from that, I'm talking about the text of the

12     first page itself.  It's our submission that the text is identical to

13     both the Pristina Corps command and this other document.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we will note the submission --

15             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- and take it into account in due course.  Please

17     proceed with questions --

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you then --

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- that the witness can assist us with from his

20     personal knowledge.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   You mentioned, sir, that you were unfamiliar with the title of

23     this document, 6D716, which I hope you have in front of you.  Did, in

24     fact, any formation or entity ever entitled the MUP command exist --

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  He doesn't have it in front of him at the moment,

Page 24963

 1     because we're relying on the screen and it's a different document that's

 2     on the screen.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  He has a hard copy.  It should be

 4     6D716 on the screen for purposes of --

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Sorry.  I didn't realize he had the hard copy

 6     there.  Sorry.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Did, in fact, any entity or formation entitled the MUP command

 9     exist within the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, to your knowledge, in

10     1999 or any time?

11             You can answer the question, sir.

12        A.   I don't know that such a command existed, and I never saw such a

13     heading as this one.  I'm a bit confused.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. IVETIC:  If I can ask for P1613 to be called up, the only

16     other document I know of that has the title MUP command, that's dated the

17     27th of August, 1999, for an action in Dobrodeljane.  Can we have both.

18     There we go.  We have both the English and the Serb up.

19        Q.   We see this is an order dated the 27th of August, 1998 [sic], for

20     an action in Dobrodeljane, labelled military secret.  If we can look at

21     the last page of the document, we see a stamp and signature that I think

22     speaks for itself.

23             My question relates to item number 7 on this page.  With respect

24     to item number 7, we see that the command is supposed to be operated from

25     the IKM in the region of Djakovica sector through brigade commanders.

Page 24964

 1     Did you ever hear of any such organ within the MUP of the Republic of

 2     Serbia known as the IKM in the Djakovica sector?

 3        A.   I never heard of it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move on, then.  You were shown --

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  On just a more broader basis, have you never heard

 6     reference in any context, either army or police, to a forward command

 7     post in Djakovica?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I have never heard of it.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  If we can move on.

12        Q.   You were shown a document by Mr. Bakrac, 5D1418, a telegram that

13     you sent to the MUP staff and a response telegram received.

14             MR. IVETIC:  If we could look at the first page of the same, I

15     think it's the first page, I'll see in a second.  I guess it's the second

16     page of the exhibit, Your Honours, I apologise.

17        Q.   This second page of the exhibit which is the telegram back to

18     you, does this document specify what particular person or individual at

19     the MUP staff would have signed this telegram and sent it back to you?

20        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

21        Q.   Does -- does this document, this telegram, evident who signed or

22     prepared this telegram on behalf of the MUP staff and sent it to you?  Is

23     there an author identified in this document, an individual author?

24        A.   I don't recognise anyone from this document.

25        Q.   Thank you.  One final question, I believe.  Do you know of any

Page 24965

 1     other person being named in 1997 to replace Obrad Stevanovic as commander

 2     of all PJP units, yes or no?

 3        A.   I'm not familiar with that.

 4        Q.   Thank you for your testimony.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I have no questions for the witness, Your Honour;

 6     although, I do have a request.  In reviewing the transcript during the

 7     break, we believe that there was an issue on -- that the transcript

 8     didn't reflect everything that was said at paragraph -- pardon me, page

 9     13, line 23, through page 14, line 6.

10             I suggest that the audio track be reviewed, and that's probably

11     the easiest way to deal with that issue, since it was a lengthy response.

12     I think that would -- I would request that that be undertaken.  Thank

13     you.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  We agree that that answer relates to a matter of

16     some importance, and we shall, therefore, ask CLSS to review the B/C/S

17     tape and to provide us with a formal translation of page 13, line 23 to

18     page 14, line 6 of today's transcript.

19             Mr. Zivaljevic, that completes your evidence here.  Thank you for

20     coming to The Hague to give evidence.  You may now leave the courtroom

21     with the usher.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             MR. IVETIC:  Our next witness, Your Honour, is Mr. Adamovic, who

24     is being handled by my colleague, Mr. Lukic.

25             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

Page 24966

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  Would you please make the solemn declaration to

 5     speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to

 6     you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  You will now be examined by Mr. Lukic.

12             Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll need help from the

14     usher, please.

15                           WITNESS:  DUSKO ADAMOVIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   Could you please be so kind as to open that binder, the one

21     that's in front of you.  On the top, there is a statement.  Could you

22     please take a look at it.  Are those your signatures on this statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is that the statement that you gave to the Defence of Mr. Sreten

25     Lukic?

Page 24967

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Today, if you were to be asked the same questions, would you give

 3     the same answers that you gave when we took this statement?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Adamovic.  Those are all the questions that we

 6     have for the time being; our Defence, that is.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just kindly ask the Trial Chamber

 8     to have Mr. Adamovic's statement admitted into evidence as 6D1613.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Fila.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.  Actually, I have

13     one single, very brief question for you.

14             Do you remember the meeting that was held at the MUP staff on the

15     22nd of July, 1998, where you attended?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Yes?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'd like to ask you the following:  At that meeting, let me jog

20     your memory.  You remember the participants, Sreten Lukic and so on.  I

21     don't want to show you the document because we've shown it hundreds of

22     times.  It is P -- 6D798, the meeting at the MUP staff on the 22nd of

23     July, 1998.  It was displayed several times.

24             Anyway, do you remember, at that meeting, did General Obrad or

25     General Rodja mention the establishment of some kind of a Joint Command

Page 24968

 1     headed by a civilian?  Was there any reference to that kind of thing?

 2        A.   I remember no such thing.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  That's all I had.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ackerman.

 6             MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.

 9        A.   Good afternoon.

10        Q.   My name is John Ackerman, and I represent General Pavkovic in

11     these proceedings.  I have a few questions I want to ask you.  I

12     understand from your statement that you left Kosovo on the 29th of March,

13     1999?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   That was like the fourth day after the bombing started, or the

16     fifth day?

17        A.   The fifth day probably.

18        Q.   And I understand that was because you were wounded, is that -- am

19     I right about that?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   Now, you will recall - and I assume you have your statement there

22     in front of you - but you recall, in your statement, you talk at length

23     about the proposition that neither the MUP staff nor any MUP units were

24     involved in planning anti-terrorist activities, that the planning was

25     done by the Pristina Corps.  That's your position, is it not?

Page 24969

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   And I take it your knowledge about that extends through the 29th,

 3     when you left, and not after; fair statement, isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I want to imagine with you a hypothetical situation so we don't

 6     get bogged down or try not to get bogged down.  I think your position is

 7     that MUP units would be provided with maps that were created by the VJ;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So a PJP unit, for instance, provided with a map that shows the

11     ground upon which an action is going to take place and the location of

12     various units involved in that, who provided the orders to the PJP for

13     exactly what it was that they were to do?

14        A.   No special orders were issued; only excerpts from maps were

15     provided that had been drawn up by the Pristina Corps.

16        Q.   Now, I understand you are a -- you have attended the military

17     academy, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you know how the system of command and orders and things of

20     that nature work in the military because of that training, don't you?

21        A.   Well, it can be put that way, generally speaking, that I do know

22     but at a lower level, because I was trained at a lower level as far as

23     the military is concerned.

24        Q.   That's kind of where we're going anyhow, so that's perfect.

25     Would you agree with me that the hierarchy in the order process for

Page 24970

 1     carrying out an action in the military is kind of like this:  That there

 2     is an order that is drafted by the commander of the corps, in this case

 3     we're talking about the Pristina Corps; then that order goes down to the

 4     brigades and the command of the brigade then draws an order which he

 5     sends out to his battle groups that are going to be involved in carrying

 6     out that action; and then the battle group commander drafts an order

 7     which he sends out to the battle group commanders that are going to be

 8     involved in that; and, finally, there is a map of that more detailed

 9     order along with a coded map.  That's the process of putting together an

10     operation, isn't it?

11        A.   That is probably the case as far as the army is concerned.

12        Q.   And no unit commander in the army, or I suggest to you in the MUP

13     either or the PJP, would even think about carrying out an action of the

14     complexity of the kind of actions we're talking about here just based on

15     a map that somebody drew, would it?  You just can't do it based on a map,

16     can you?

17        A.   Well, I know what I did; that is to say, that I received from the

18     Pristina Corps excerpts of maps and such excerpts were sent to

19     commanders.  I assume that, in the field, they did encounter military

20     commanders where they would discuss in greater detail the tasks that

21     awaited them.

22        Q.   Well, isn't it the case that the commanders of the MUP units

23     would actually draft the orders necessary to carry out these operations?

24     It couldn't have been done any other way, could it?

25        A.   Well, I cannot claim what it was that they did out in the field

Page 24971

 1     because I was in the staff in Pristina, and I did not go out into the

 2     field; that is to say, as I've already said, they received excerpts from

 3     orders.  What they did with their subordinate officers, I don't know.

 4        Q.   Did you see these maps that you claim were provided by the

 5     Pristina Corps, these excerpts?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I did see them since I went to the Pristina Corps, and

 7     I took these excerpts and I submitted them to commanders.

 8        Q.   Did you see any of those maps in preparation for your testimony

 9     here?

10        A.   I did, some.

11        Q.   I'm going to have you look at a map and ask you if this is maybe

12     one of those ones you saw.

13             MR. ACKERMAN:  6D01619, please.

14        Q.   I'm not at all interested in the action that this deals with.

15     I'm just interested in whether this is the kind of map you're talking

16     about.  It is, isn't it?

17        A.   Well, they were like this, for the most part.

18        Q.   I think it -- I don't read Serbian all that well, but why don't

19     you read for us that little block down there in the lower left-hand

20     corner, and we'll get it translated.  It starts with "odluka."  I kind of

21     know what that means.  Just read it out loud so the translators can

22     translate it for us, please.

23        A.    "Decision of the commander for destroying DTS in the area of

24     Kosmac, excerpt for" and I assume that this is "company of the PJP."  If

25     I can see this right, it seems to be "Prizren, coded map Drim."  That's

Page 24972

 1     what it says here.

 2        Q.   After "izvod za" there, those characters are written there in

 3     Cyrillic, and I think it's the name of MUP detachment, isn't it?

 4        A.   Well, obviously, it's not a detachment; it's one company on this

 5     excerpt.

 6        Q.   That's fine.  Then underneath that --

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just on moment, Mr. Ackerman.

 8             Mr. Lukic, has this been submitted for translation?

 9             MR. ACKERMAN:  Your Honour, I think, as a matter of fact, they

10     have withdrawn this from their 65 ter request, but it's still sitting in

11     e-court and I wanted to ask the witness about it.  So it may be admitted

12     as an --

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, you will have to submit it for translation,

14     if you wish to rely on it, Mr. Ackerman.

15             MR. ACKERMAN:  I'll be happy to do that.  That's not a problem.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Very well.

17             MR. ACKERMAN:

18        Q.   Right underneath, then, the last line, read that last line for

19     us, then, will you?

20        A.    "Coded map, Drim."

21        Q.   All right.  Now, this is a map that's known in military circles

22     as a code map, isn't it?

23        A.   As far as I see, that's what's written here.

24        Q.   Well, even if it wasn't written there, I suggest you would know

25     that because it has all these little circles on it with numbers in them.

Page 24973

 1     Do you see all those little circles with numbers all over that map?

 2        A.   Yes, I see that.

 3        Q.   And those little circles with numbers are code numbers, so that

 4     when unit a reporting by radio from the field its location, it can report

 5     its location in relation to one of those numbers without disclosing to

 6     the enemy exactly where they are.  That's all that's all about, isn't it?

 7        A.   Obviously, one can see that these code numbers are there for

 8     units to communicate, those that are in action, to find their way in the

 9     area, to communicate amongst themselves, and to report to one another on

10     the problems, rather, that they may encounter.

11        Q.   Now, well, I'm not going to ask you that question.  I've changed

12     my mind.

13             Well, let me ask you this:  Did you ever see any actual written

14     orders crafted by the Pristina Corps directing any MUP units as to what

15     they were supposed to do, an actual written order for a MUP unit, or did

16     you just see the maps?

17        A.   During the preparations here, I did see some orders, certain

18     orders.

19        Q.   And those were orders that would be orders for a unit of the MUP

20     to carry out that had been drafted, in your view, by the VJ, the Pristina

21     Corps, or somebody?

22        A.   Yes.  At least in terms of what I saw, orders were made by the

23     Pristina Corps only.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, in as much as the MUP was never actually

25     resubordinated to the VJ, I take it somebody in MUP was responsible for

Page 24974

 1     approving these orders that were drafted by the VJ.  Somebody had to say,

 2     "Yes, I agree.  I order this PJP unit to carry out this task."  Somebody

 3     had to approve that since they were not obligated to carry out any VJ

 4     orders unless it was approved by somebody at command level in MUP.  Isn't

 5     that true?

 6        A.   Well, it cannot be said that there was approval by the MUP

 7     because I was in contact with the representatives of the Pristina Corps.

 8     I took these excerpts from maps, and I would submit them to officers in

 9     the field.  So there was no special approval in the MUP staff.

10        Q.   Well, if you are submitting those maps to commanders in the

11     field, it must be you that is approving those orders and telling them to

12     carry them out.  Actually, you're ordering that they be carried out by

13     giving those maps, didn't you?  Even if you don't say the word "order,"

14     that's what you were doing.  If you didn't think they ought to be doing

15     it, you wouldn't give them the map, right?

16        A.   Well, it cannot be put that way, that I was issuing orders,

17     because, indeed, I was not issuing orders.  So the basis for police

18     action was the plan that had been adopted for carrying out anti-terrorist

19     actions.

20        Q.   Well, if I'm a commander of a PJP unit and you hand me a map like

21     this, who is it that's ordering me to carry out the instructions that

22     might be contained on that map?  I mean, how am I supposed to know what

23     to do if somebody isn't telling me, "You are ordered by this organization

24     to carry out this activity"?  It just can't happen any other way, can it?

25        A.   Well, previously, I don't remember the exact date, but before

Page 24975

 1     actions would start, meetings would be held at the staff, and then the

 2     plan would be discussed for carrying out anti-terrorist actions; that is

 3     to say, the Army of Yugoslavia and the police.  That was the basis for

 4     further action on the part of all officers who were already out in the

 5     field and who had been engaged for that, if I can put it that way.

 6        Q.   Yeah, well, that starts to make sense.  So what you're saying is

 7     that these actions would be discussed before in the MUP staff; the MUP

 8     staff headed by General Lukic would approve the action; and then when you

 9     received the map that basically was permission for you to go ahead and

10     pass it on down to the commander.  So it really was a planning process

11     that took place in the MUP staff, wasn't it?

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I have to object, Your Honour, because the question

14     starts with, "so what you are saying is that," and the witness is not

15     saying this.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ackerman, in your own interests, this needs

17     either to be broken down or left for the words of the witness to some

18     extent.  It's not clear --

19             MR. ACKERMAN:  Judge --

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- who would be involved in these discussions, for

21     example.

22             MR. ACKERMAN:  You're very right about that, but he certainly

23     said that meetings would be held at the staff --

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes --

25             MR. ACKERMAN:  -- and the plan would be discussed for carrying

Page 24976

 1     out anti-terrorist actions.  So at least Mr. Lukic's objection is not

 2     well-founded, I don't think, in that regard, but I will ask it in a

 3     little bit different way.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 5             MR. ACKERMAN:

 6        Q.   These meetings at the MUP staff, who would be in attendance at

 7     these meetings where you would discuss these actions?

 8        A.   These meetings were usually attended by commanders of detachments

 9     and chiefs of secretariats; most often, that is.  I'm speaking in general

10     terms about meetings that were held at the staff.

11        Q.   And, of course, members of the staff would be there?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   And why would you have these meetings?  What did you talk about?

14        A.   Well, it depends on the period that we're talking about.  If

15     we're talking about the period before the anti-terrorist actions started,

16     there were -- well, I cannot tell you exactly whether there was one or

17     two meetings --

18        Q.   Well, I want to talk about the period where you say that orders

19     and maps and things of that nature are being prepared by the Pristina

20     Corps and passed along to you, and that you are handing maps to

21     commanders.  You just told us there were meetings where these things were

22     discussed.  You told us who was at the meetings.  I want to know what you

23     talked about.  What did you talk about at those meetings?

24        A.   Well, meetings were not held for carrying out each and every

25     anti-terrorist action.  Meetings were held only at the beginning.  If

Page 24977

 1     we're talking about the implementation of actions and a plan, before an

 2     action would start, there would be a meeting that would be attended by

 3     officers from the Pristina Corps.  At that meeting, all the attendees

 4     would be familiarized with the plan for carrying out anti-terrorist

 5     actions and -- now, whether all of that happened on the same day or

 6     within one or two days.  There would be a meeting with the commanders of

 7     the detachments and the chiefs of the SUPs where the assistant ministers,

 8     generals - that is to say, General Djordjevic and General Obrad

 9     Stevanovic - told the officers about the tasks that were to follow.

10        Q.   How many of those meetings do you think there were while you were

11     there?  Let's just take that little bit of time between the 22nd and the

12     29th, that week, how many meetings were there that week that you

13     remember?

14        A.   It is difficult for me to tell you how many.  I know there was a

15     meeting with representatives of the Pristina Corps, whether it was at

16     that meeting or a day later.  In any case, there was a meeting at which

17     the generals acquainted the officers with the plan to carry out

18     anti-terrorist actions.  As far as I remember, in those few days, even

19     the minister may have been there, once the actions commenced, of course.

20     A lot of time has passed, and it is difficult for me to recall

21     everything, especially the dates.

22        Q.   All right.  We'll go back now to where we started this.  You are

23     a -- at the time, you were an officer in the MUP.  You had subordinates

24     under you, you had superiors above you, you had come up through a chain

25     obviously, and you certainly wouldn't do anything unless you had gotten

Page 24978

 1     approval to do it from your superiors in.

 2             Some form.  Now, from whom did you get approval to pass these

 3     maps to the units that were supposed to carry out an action?  Who gave

 4     you approval to do that?

 5        A.   Separate approvals were not needed.  I was in contact with

 6     representatives of the Pristina Corps.  I would take the map excerpts and

 7     distribute them to the officers in the field.

 8        Q.   Who approved you doing that?  Blanket approval, specific

 9     approval, I don't care which, what made it okay with your superiors for

10     you to pass those maps along to your units?  Who approved you doing that?

11     I don't think that's a difficult question.  Somebody told you it was okay

12     for you to do that.  Who was it?

13        A.   To repeat yet again, special approval could not come from just

14     anyone.  I was appointed on behalf of the staff before the actions

15     commenced to contact the Pristina Corps and to distribute it further on

16     in the field what I get from them.  Of course, the leader or the head of

17     the staff knew about those actions being planned.

18        Q.   And you were appointed by who to do that?

19        A.   I think it was the leader of the staff who appointed me on behalf

20     of the staff to have contacts with the Pristina Corps.

21        Q.   The leader of the staff was General Lukic; is that who we're

22     talking about?

23        A.   As far as I recall, he told me that.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, I take it, if you're standing there - I just

25     want to picture you standing there - you've been handed a map.  Who

Page 24979

 1     handed it to you?  Where did you get it from?  Who brought it to you?

 2        A.   I was in contact, for the most part, with Colonel Djakovic.

 3        Q.   Now --

 4        A.   He was the officer with whom I had most frequent contacts.

 5        Q.   When you would get this map then, it's been handed to you, I

 6     guess you would look at it, and I guess that you would make some

 7     determinations about it like what units you should pass it to, like

 8     whether or not the things depicted on it were possible for your units to

 9     carry out.  I assume you would make some kind of judgements about it like

10     that, for no other reason just for the protection of your own forces.  Am

11     I right?

12        A.   As far as I'm concerned, I made no decisions regarding that

13     issue.  I was a member of the staff who would go to the Pristina Corps

14     and forward information on the units in the area or in the territory.

15     The Pristina Corps knew of that.  I didn't go into any analysis of the

16     maps and excerpts.  There was no need for me to do so.  I was not

17     authorised to do that.

18        Q.   So you were just basically a post office box.  They would come

19     stick the map in you, and somebody would come fish it out of you and walk

20     away with it.  You had absolutely no authority at all; is that what

21     you're saying?

22        A.   Well, I'm not saying it quite that way.  I'm merely telling you

23     what I was doing.  I explained how I established contacts and what it was

24     that I told Colonel Djakovic.  The outlines of the maps would most

25     frequently be done before my arrival.

Page 24980

 1        Q.   What was your rank at this point?  Were you a colonel or what

 2     were you?

 3        A.   I was lieutenant-colonel.

 4        Q.   Why didn't they just have a sergeant or somebody doing that?

 5     This wasn't something that required a high-paid, high-level officer since

 6     you had no -- you didn't even bother to look at the maps, right?

 7        A.   I really don't know why it was me who did that.  It is obvious

 8     that people at lower levels could have performed the same duty that I did

 9     when it comes to these tasks.

10        Q.   So a courier, instead of bringing the map to you or General

11     Djakovic, instead of bringing it to you, could have just sent it off to

12     those units and skip you completely, but you were getting paid the big

13     bucks as lieutenant-colonel.  I don't understand what you were doing

14     there, do you?

15        A.   When it comes to implementing the tasks, my role was an auxiliary

16     one.  I was on the sidelines.

17        Q.   Well, did you know anything about the status of the field?  When

18     I say that, did you know, for instance, in a particular village how many

19     KLA troops were believed to be stationed there?  Did you know things like

20     that?

21        A.   No, not even those things.  I wasn't included and I didn't know

22     them.

23        Q.   Well, who would look at these maps and say, "Well, let's see,

24     that PJP unit is being asked to attack a particular area, and there are a

25     hundred of them and there are a thousand KLA there, that's ridiculous"?

Page 24981

 1     Who would look at a map and make a determination like that?  Who from the

 2     MUP staff would make those kind of determinations before they would send

 3     their troops into a situation where they could all be killed, for

 4     instance?  Didn't somebody exercise some kind of authority over this

 5     situation?

 6        A.   As far as I know, no one made such assessments in the staff.  It

 7     is obvious that the Pristina Corps had information on the forces in the

 8     area.  I suppose, based on that information, they made maps; and the Army

 9     of Yugoslavia would be included, as well as the PJP, on the maps.

10        Q.   Well, let's just get really practical about this.  You say that

11     you were handed a map without doing anything beyond having kind of a

12     general authority to hand it over.  You gave it to a unit, and let's just

13     say, for instance, that that unit was completely wiped out, killed by

14     KLA, the whole unit, because they were attacking a vastly superior force.

15     Who in the MUP is responsible for that?  Who takes the hit for that,

16     because somebody's going to be in trouble for sending that unit against

17     such a vast force.  Who is that going to be?  Who in the MUP chain of

18     command gets in trouble for that?  You?

19        A.   Well, obviously, it would be the minister or the sector chief

20     since they deployed the forces in the field.  To repeat again, the staff

21     did not participate in the planning and execution of anti-terrorist

22     actions.  It was done by the Pristina Corps.

23        Q.   I just don't understand why the minister of the interior would

24     send a whole bunch of high-ranking police officers and create an

25     organization in Kosovo called the MUP staff and then not give them any

Page 24982

 1     authority to do anything.  How does that make any sense?  It just seems

 2     like a huge waste of people and money and everything else.  I mean, did

 3     somebody just tell you that you needed to come here and say those things,

 4     or was that the way it really was?

 5        A.   The real situation was the way I'm describing it.  At the MUP

 6     staff, we had very few officers.  In order to deal with such issues in a

 7     more serious manner, there should have been many more officers who would

 8     participate in these activities.

 9        Q.   Well, I suggest to you that Kosovo with bombs falling on it is

10     not a very good place to go for a rest, is it?

11        A.   That is correct.

12        Q.   I want to refer you to paragraph 31 of your statement.  First of

13     all, you begin with the language:  "During my stay at the staff," which

14     we've already established was about five days.  You say that:  "During my

15     stay at the staff, the Pristina Corps planned all big operations."

16     Correct?

17        A.   All actions that included both the army and the police were

18     planned by the Pristina Corps.

19        Q.   Well, the words you used, I think in your statement, are "big

20     operations," right?  That's what I asked you.  Is that correct?

21        A.   It is correct that I use the word "bigger" actions.  What I had

22     in mind were the actions in which the army and police participated.

23        Q.   And the other side of that, I guess, is that the MUP planned

24     smaller actions, right?

25        A.   Well, the MUP planned smaller actions if there was a need to do

Page 24983

 1     so.  While the anti-terrorist actions were being executed, the plans were

 2     being made by the Pristina Corps.  These were priorities, and those

 3     actions were the ones to be implemented.

 4        Q.   Now, you said that only once now, but that's not my question.  My

 5     question was:  When you say that the big actions were planned by the

 6     Pristina Corps, the other side of that is the smaller operations must

 7     have been planned by the MUP.  And that's just follows, doesn't it?  It

 8     makes sense, right?

 9        A.   Yes.  It does make sense; however, I'm telling you that while the

10     anti-terrorist planned actions were being under way, including both the

11     army and the police, they were focused on.  If there were smaller

12     anti-terrorist actions, if there is something happening in the territory

13     of a given secretariat, and if the secretariat with its own forces could

14     see the task through, they did.  This doesn't require many members of the

15     police.

16        Q.   I'm going to have you take a look in a minute at P1505.  While

17     we're waiting for that to come up, I want to ask you in -- during the

18     time you were in Kosovo and even before that, Vlajko Stojiljkovic was the

19     minister of the interior, was he not?

20        A.   Yes.  At the time, it was Vlajko Stojiljkovic.  Before him, there

21     were other ministers.

22        Q.   Yeah.  I take it that the minister of the interior has the

23     authority to create an organization like the MUP staff and has the

24     authority to determine what its tasks will be and what its authority will

25     be, doesn't it?

Page 24984

 1        A.   It should be like that.

 2        Q.   Well, it actually was like that, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Well, judging by the documents I saw here, one wouldn't be able

 4     to say so.

 5        Q.   Well, let's look where you may be talking about.  The one we're

 6     getting ready to look at is P1505.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can we look at it after the break?

 8             MR. ACKERMAN:  Oh, are we there already?

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Time flies when you're enjoying yourself,

10     Mr. Ackerman.

11             MR. ACKERMAN:  It does, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Adamovic, we have to have a break at this

13     stage for half an hour.  Would you please leave the courtroom with the

14     usher, and we'll see you again at 6.00.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ackerman.

20             MR. ACKERMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, when we were interrupted by the break, we were

22     looking at an exhibit designated P1505, and I want you to look --

23             MR. ACKERMAN:  We'll have to go to the next page in B/C/S.

24        Q.   I want you to look at paragraph 2 of that document.

25             MR. ACKERMAN:  There we go, perfect.

Page 24985

 1        Q.   Now, you see paragraph 2 there?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   You're a professional policeman.  What does that mean to you?  If

 4     you had gotten such a document, what would that mean to you to read that?

 5     What does it tell you to do?

 6        A.   I would conclude that I was to go about the tasks set out in the

 7     document.

 8        Q.   Like planning, organizing, and managing the activities and use of

 9     the organizational units of the ministry?

10        A.   That's what is stated in the document.

11        Q.   That is not only to the those that are attached to you -- sorry.

12        A.   However, the reality looked differently.

13        Q.   We may get into that.  That reply is not only to the units that

14     are attached to your staff but those that have been sent, I guess, from

15     Serbia to assist, right?

16        A.   That's what it says.

17        Q.   And all to do with suppressing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija,

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Then the second paragraph, as near as I can tell, says basically

21     the same thing; to plan, organize, direct, and coordinate the activities

22     of the police units in Kosovo in carrying out complex, big operations,

23     security operations; right?

24        A.   That's what it says, too.

25        Q.   All right.  Look at paragraph 3.

Page 24986

 1        A.   I see it.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, I have to interrupt at this point.

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  In the question, it says "police units."  In the

 5     document, it says "organizational units," I think, in paragraph 2 of

 6     paragraph 2.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  We can't assume that that's organizational units

 8     within the police?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but SUPs, OUPs, and things like that, but not

10     PJP units.

11             MR. ACKERMAN:  Well, I accept that.  I wasn't trying to limit it,

12     Your Honour.  It's just a poor choice of words on my part, I guess, but I

13     don't think I need to take it any further.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Are you saying, Mr. Lukic, that the PJP is not an

15     organizational unit of the ministry?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not an expert, but I think it's not.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, that's, no doubt, a matter for submission in

18     due course, in light of various rules and other regulations we have to

19     consider.

20             Mr. Ackerman.

21             MR. ACKERMAN:

22        Q.   Well, let me ask you, is the minister of the interior superior to

23     the PJP?

24        A.   The minister of internal affairs is superior to all members of

25     the Ministry of the Interior.

Page 24987

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, we were looking at paragraph 3, and I think that

 2     you've read that.  What does that mean to you?

 3        A.   Well, it says that the head of the staff is answerable for the

 4     work of the staff on the security situation to the minister; and, of

 5     course, he's supposed to inform him on all security-related events.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, the absolute number one person in charge of the

 7     police - and when I say "police," I mean all organizations of the

 8     Ministry of the Interior - the person absolutely number one in charge of

 9     all those organizations is the person who signed this document, Vlajko

10     Stojiljkovic.  That's true, isn't it?

11        A.   Well, the minister heads the ministry.

12        Q.   Why would he -- why would he order these kinds of things that are

13     contained in paragraph 2 and 3?  Why would he sign a document with those

14     two paragraphs in it if he didn't mean it?  Was it just some kind of a

15     game he was playing?  Was he just kidding or do you know?

16        A.   It is difficult for me to comment what the minister had in mind.

17     If we have a look at this, and if we compared that with the practice, it

18     is obvious that these tasks are not good.  Whether he was aware of it at

19     the time or not, whether he knew what and how things would develop in

20     Kosovo, I don't know.  I really cannot comment on what the minister had

21     in mind.

22        Q.   Well, I wasn't there, and so there's a lot of things I don't

23     know; and you were there, and there's probably a lot of things you do

24     know.  Was there kind of a general sense that the minister was not

25     competent and not able to do his job properly?  Was that kind of what

Page 24988

 1     everybody was feeling about Stojiljkovic at that point and just kind of

 2     laughing at the stuff he was doing?

 3        A.   One couldn't say so, particularly since I never saw this

 4     document.  I wasn't familiar with what is stated therein.  However, it is

 5     clear that it does not correspond to the situation in the field, the

 6     facts that were in existence in the field and how things were being done.

 7        Q.   Do I understand that you think it's important to say that the

 8     document doesn't correspond to what was going on in the field, and you've

 9     now said it three times and you probably don't need to say it again, and

10     maybe what you can do is concentrate on the questions I ask you.

11             So, as far as you know, the minister was competent and able to do

12     his job during this period of time; correct?

13        A.   It should be correct.  We know who he was appointed by.  I cannot

14     go into analysing the minister and his orders.

15        Q.   Well, I take it, if you had been the head of this staff that this

16     decision is directed to, that you would have taken those two paragraphs

17     seriously and would have treated them seriously, and attempted the best

18     way you could, as a professional officer, to carry out the tasks set out

19     there, wouldn't you?

20        A.   Well, it can be put that way; however, this document, now when it

21     was written, was it the minister's idea to really have the staff do this,

22     as written here?  I really don't know that.  But, obviously, in terms of

23     what was happening in the field, as the situation grew more complex, as

24     there was larger-scale terrorism, quite simply it was impossible for the

25     staff to do all of this with the number of people that were there on the

Page 24989

 1     staff; that is to say, that this requires a large number of people to be

 2     involved in all of this, professional, well-trained, so that this could

 3     function and that this work could be done.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  You said a moment ago that we know who he was

 5     appointed by, referring to Stojiljkovic.  Who was he appointed by?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that goes into the sphere of

 7     politics.  I think he was appointed by the Assembly.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  No.  What do you mean by:  "We all know who he was

 9     appointed by," please?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we're talking about the

11     minister, as a reference was made to the minister, his qualities, and so

12     on.  I'm saying that the police does not decide who the minister is going

13     to be.  When Mr. Vlajko was in that position, not before that, not after

14     that, it is only natural that the police has its own impressions about

15     the minister, if I can put it that way; but we have no say, no one asks

16     us.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just out of the blue, you made this statement:

18     "We know who he was appointed by ..."

19             Now, I would like you to give me a frank answer as to what that

20     refers to and who it refers to.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not that I had any

22     special intentions when I said that.  The questions persisted on the

23     minister's qualities, whether he is capable of doing the job and so on

24     and so forth.  So then I said that we from the police quite simply do not

25     take part in such matters.

Page 24990

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Bearing that in mind that there was some

 2     dissatisfaction according to you with his performance, you seem to be

 3     pointing in the direction of an appointment by somebody that might

 4     explain that.  So who was the somebody?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't mean anyone

 6     specifically, anyone in particular.  I'm saying that this belongs to the

 7     sphere of politics.  As a professional, I tried to stay away from

 8     politics, as far away as possible.  That's why I put it that way.  When

 9     the office is set up, too, when the -- or rather, when a cabinet is being

10     proposed by a prime minister designate, whatever, I don't even know how

11     that goes.  I try to be a professional and to leave politics aside.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  You appear to be doing precisely the opposite by

13     yourself introducing this reference which was not called for by anyone.

14     So I ask you again:  Who were you referring to?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really did not mean anyone

16     specifically.  How consultations develop in the sphere of politics, I

17     really don't know.  It is possible that I misspoke, if I can put it that

18     way, but the essence is what I've been saying so far.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ackerman.

20             MR. ACKERMAN:

21        Q.   I wonder - again, you know, I wasn't there and you were so you

22     know a lot more about this - I wonder if there was some kind of a culture

23     that had grown up in the police ranks that basically called for ignoring

24     anything that police ministers did, ministers of the interior did, that

25     they could simply be ignored and you could just go about doing things the

Page 24991

 1     way you wanted to?  Is that what happened, they just become figureheads

 2     with no power?

 3        A.   Well, you cannot say that the police ever ignored orders they

 4     received from their leadership.  The police acted in accordance with the

 5     law and the powers they had.  When speaking of this particular matter,

 6     anti-terrorist actions, for us it was the decision of the state organs

 7     that was of significance; namely, that the police had to carry out

 8     certain tasks regardless of whether somebody liked that or not.  That is

 9     the price to be paid by this professional.

10        Q.   I want to go talk about something else now because we've kind of

11     taken up too much time, I think.  You're familiar with groups called

12     RPOs, reserve police branches or stations, aren't you?

13        A.   Yes.  I heard of reserve police branches or stations, "odelenja."

14        Q.   Well, they existed during the time that you were active in

15     Kosovo, did they not?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you know that they were organized and armed by the police?

18        A.   Not only by the police, they were armed by the army and police as

19     far as I know; although, I was not involved with reserve police branches

20     or stations.

21        Q.   Who's Ljubinko Cvetic?

22        A.   Ljubinko Cvetic, at that time, he was chief of the secretariat in

23     Kosovska Mitrovica.

24        Q.   I didn't want to do this, but I'm going to have to have you look

25     at P1114.  And I'll just tell you, without having to go to the last page,

Page 24992

 1     that this is a document from Ljubinko Cvetic.

 2             MR. ACKERMAN:  And if we can just go to page -- just as an

 3     example go to page 2.

 4        Q.   This is a document that talks about the creation of all of those

 5     RPOs in Kosovska Mitrovica secretariat.  And if you look about halfway

 6     down that page - it's the bottom of the B/C/S that you're looking at - it

 7     talks about the numbers of rifles that have been delivered to various RPO

 8     members, doesn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And, then, if we look at P2804.

11             MR. ACKERMAN:  And we need to go I think to the second page in

12     the B/C/S.  This is just the cover page we have there.  Yeah, it's hard

13     to read though.

14        Q.   You should see a paragraph that begins with:  "Organize defence

15     of the villages with the newly formed reserve police stations, and with

16     that aim in mind build defence fortifications ..."

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   I see that.

19        Q.   And that document is signed by General Lukic, is it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then it says, I think:  "For each RPO, make a dossier," maybe

22     "containing security assessment of the threat for the RP O, the task of

23     the RPO, a training plan, a defence plan, a communications plan, and

24     ammunition replenishment plan, a control plan."  Right?

25        A.   That's what's written here.

Page 24993

 1        Q.   All right.  Let's look now at 6D808.  This is dated 1 April 1999;

 2     and, of course, that's after you left Kosovo, but I'm just going to rely

 3     on your knowledge as a police officer, senior police officer, as to the

 4     meaning basically.  The -- what we see at the top is it was delivered to

 5     the secretariats of the interior in all these locations; Pristina, Pec,

 6     Djakovica, Prizren, Urosevac, Gnjilane maybe, right, yes?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, that first paragraph interests me because it talks about the

 9     new situation caused by NATO bombardment, and it says:  "It's necessary

10     that you submit a daily summary of important incidents and events from

11     0600 hours to 0600 hours to the staff of the ministry of the Republic of

12     Serbia for the autonomous province of Kosovo.  Send it by fax by 0700

13     hours the next day."

14             The question I have about that -- this is ordered by General

15     Lukic.  The question I have about that was:  Why?  To what purpose?

16     Since the staff had no real control over anything, what difference did it

17     make whether that was sent to them or not?  Why would he order that?  Why

18     does that make sense?

19        A.   Well, even before that probably, and in that period, the staff

20     submitted reports to the Ministry of the Interior about security-related

21     incidents in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.  What I know is that

22     these reports were all brought together for the entire territory of the

23     province, and they were submitted to the Ministry of the Interior.  I

24     think they were also submitted to the secretariats in Kosovo so that they

25     would be aware of what was going on.

Page 24994

 1        Q.   If you look at subparagraph, there's a list there starting with

 2     the number 1 as to what he wants included in this summary.  If you look

 3     at number 3, he wants information about serious crimes committed.  He

 4     wants to know the time, the place, the manner, the perpetrator, the

 5     victims, the result, the degree of the crime, murder, robbery, theft,

 6     looting, and rape, and the measures that were taken.

 7             Does that indicate to you that at that point, on the 1st of

 8     April, that General Lukic was aware that such crimes were, in fact, being

 9     committed and that he wanted a report on them?

10        A.   No, no.  It does not mean that he knows that crimes were

11     committed.  If I can put it this way, these are incidents that are of

12     interest; and if they happened, they should be recorded and this kind of

13     a compiled report should be sent to the ministry, as in the previous two

14     points.  So, if there are such crimes, of course, they are going to

15     submit information; and if there are no crimes, then there is no

16     submission of information.  At least that is what this document seems to

17     say.

18        Q.   So I guess it was just drafting what he meant to say was if

19     serious crimes were committed, rather than telling about the serious

20     crimes committed, right?  That's your analysis of it at least, right?

21        A.   Well, naturally, something that is committed is one thing and

22     suspicion that something was committed then you wouldn't write this way.

23     This is information that preceded what happened in Kosovo, if I can put

24     it that way.  This belongs to the domain of reporting that is only

25     natural on the part of all secretariats, regardless of the area involved,

Page 24995

 1     regardless of whether it's Kosovo or outside Kosovo; that is to say, such

 2     information is provided to the ministry.  Prosecution is a different

 3     matter, but these are incidents in terms of whether they happened or not.

 4        Q.   All right.  So maybe we can say he expected those kinds of things

 5     to be happening, so he wanted to know about them when they do; fair?

 6        A.   Well, I don't think that the wording is right, that it is

 7     expected to happen.  That is police work.  Everything that the police

 8     knows and everything that is noteworthy has to go through the system of

 9     reporting.  Even in these situations, since these are serious crimes,

10     these are rules of action which require urgent reporting on such matters.

11     So that is what the -- what was valid in Kosovo and outside Kosovo.

12        Q.   So these things would have been reported to him even if he hadn't

13     issued this document, because just normal police procedure would require

14     that; correct?

15        A.   Well, it can be put that way, but I assume that this is yet

16     another reminder of such matters.  I don't know how else to interpret

17     this; that is to say that, this is what I see.

18        Q.   On two or three occasions now, when I've asked you a question,

19     you have said:  "It can be put that way."  I'm taking those answers to

20     mean:  Yes, that's a way to look at it; you're right.  Is that what those

21     answers mean, that I'm correct in that assertion?

22        A.   Well, I am presenting one assertion; that is to say, that the

23     members of the Ministry of the Interior always had to act in accordance

24     with the law and bylaws that regulate certain rules of how members of the

25     service should act.

Page 24996

 1        Q.   They had to follow orders when they received them, didn't they?

 2        A.   To carry out orders, yes, except for those that constitute a

 3     crime.  Members of the service cannot and should not carry out such

 4     orders.

 5        Q.   It's not a crime to engage in planning activities, anti-terrorist

 6     activities, as Minister Stojiljkovic ordered, is it --

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  You don't need to answer that question.

 8             Mr. Ackerman, we're going to have to strike some sort of balance

 9     in this cross-examination because I understand there are perhaps more

10     extensive than normal requests.  So can we --

11             MR. ACKERMAN:  Judge, I've gone at least a half-hour longer than

12     I've expected this to take.

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Okay.

14             MR. ACKERMAN:  And it's had to do with the length of the answers

15     and the sidetracks that the answers have created.  I don't know what to

16     do.  I've got about six more documents I would like to discuss with him

17     and some of them will be awfully fast.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, no.  This is an important witness and,

19     therefore, we're happy to trust your judgement, but we're showing signs

20     at the moment of getting bogged down in something that wasn't really

21     advancing our knowledge of matters very much.

22             MR. ACKERMAN:  I've done that before, as you've observed, but

23     I'll do my best.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Very rarely.

25             MR. ACKERMAN:

Page 24997

 1        Q.   All right.  Let's go to P1989.  This is the minutes of a meeting

 2     of senior police officials in Kosovo-Metohija on the 4th of April, 1999,

 3     like ten days into the war.  General Stevanovic is there; Major Lukic is

 4     there; the chiefs of all the secretariats are there; the PJP commanders

 5     are there, SAJ, RDB, JSO, the whole gang.  Right?

 6        A.   I don't see the RDB -- actually, just a moment, please.  Yes,

 7     yes, I see it on there underneath the agenda -- no, no, no.  Commander of

 8     the JSO RDB; not the chief of the RDB.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let's move over to paragraph 2 in the document.

10             MR. ACKERMAN:  It's on page 3 in the English.  It's probably

11     close to that in Serbian, too.

12        Q.   It's a paragraph entitled:  "Forthcoming tasks."

13             MR. ACKERMAN:  Whoops.  We have the Serbian now on the right-hand

14     side, but we've lost the English.  We've got the Serbian on both sides.

15     There we go.  Now we got it.

16        Q.   These are tasks that are being assigned apparently by General

17     Lukic, head of the staff of the ministry.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And, oh, one, two, three, four, five, six, it looks like the

20     seventh bullet point, he says:  "Take rigorous measures towards

21     paramilitary units ..."

22             Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And, then, if we go to the bottom, right before the Assistant

25     Minister Stevanovic speaks, he again makes it clear that the secretariat

Page 24998

 1     chiefs and the unit commanders must report to the MUP staff.

 2             Now, I want you to look at the next page, I think it is in B/C/S

 3     and English, and we see Obrad Stevanovic, assistant minister, and his

 4     instructions.

 5             In the very last one, it says, to the heads of all these

 6     organizations that are working in the field and dealing with terrorists:

 7     "Conduct cooperation with the VJ through the commander on the ground and

 8     inform the staff of any problems."

 9             Now, the way I read that is the process of dealing with

10     cooperation in activities with the army are to be worked out with the

11     ground commander from the VJ and the ground commander from the MUP, just

12     between themselves on the ground, rather than at some higher level; is

13     that what that says?  Does that make sense in that context?

14        A.   What is written is that cooperation with the army should be

15     carried out through the commanders on the ground -- the commander on the

16     ground.  The commander of the army and the commander of the police, that

17     is the reference that is made, that they should cooperate.

18        Q.   Let's go quickly to 6D778.  It's a one-page document.  We should

19     get through it rather quickly.  You'll see that this is a document from

20     General Lukic to all the secretariats and some separate police units,

21     detachments 21st to 87th.  In it, he speaks about an order that was

22     entered on the 5th of April, to prevent civilians from leaving their

23     places of residence and to ensure their safety and take measures to

24     protect the population.

25             He says it's come to his attention that some people are not

Page 24999

 1     obeying that order, as they should have been, and he makes it very clear

 2     that that order must be obeyed and that persons who failed to do so would

 3     be held accountable.

 4             Now, if there is a plan to expel the population from Albania, why

 5     would anybody sign and circulate such an order?  It doesn't make sense,

 6     does it?

 7        A.   A plan to expel the Albanian population, as far as I know, did

 8     not exist.  This pertains to the period during which I was not with the

 9     staff.  Always, or frequently, at all meetings that were held, both

10     secretariat chiefs, as well as detachment commanders, were told to act

11     lawfully when implementing tasks, in particular to protect civilians in

12     all situations.  That is what I know.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's move now quickly to 6D874.  This one now we're up to

14     the 6th of May.  This is another document from General Lukic directed to

15     the chiefs of all the SUPs in Kosovo and Metohija.

16             He says that because of the NATO aggression crimes and other

17     unlawful acts have been committed in a new way in the area of Kosovo and

18     Metohija, properties being unlawfully appropriated, things of that

19     nature.  Then, in a few paragraphs down, he says:  "In order to disrupt

20     and eliminate all adverse developments in the security situation and

21     to ... prevent the perpetration of the most serious crimes and ... to

22     arrest the perpetrators, particularly ... murders, rapes, and various

23     types of ill-treatment, theft, aggravated theft, arson and ... damage to

24     private property, it's necessary to" do certain things:  Collect a bunch

25     of information and establish cooperation with state security and the

Page 25000

 1     army, cooperation with public prosecutors ..." --

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, Mr. Ackerman, what's the question?

 3             MR. ACKERMAN:

 4        Q.   The question is:  This is the kind of an order to try to get

 5     control of and prevent and punish crime that commanders are required to

 6     do under the law, isn't it?

 7        A.   First of all, as you said, this concerned crimes; however, I do

 8     not see that in this circular.  What I see is that people are being

 9     reminded of their obligations in terms of their conduct when it comes to

10     individuals who were committing illegal acts.  What is requested is that

11     people act lawfully and that people should be prosecuted if information

12     is acquired that they had participated in the commission of certain

13     crimes, irrespective of whether they were policemen or else.

14        Q.   Well, that's exactly my question.  My question exactly is that.

15     You know that the law requires a commander to take steps to prevent or

16     punish crime, and that's just what General Lukic is doing here.  It's

17     what a commander is supposed to do, right?

18        A.   Commander, or rather, not the commander, but the leader or the

19     head of the staff did not have the authority to undertake specific

20     measures against such individuals.  If they were criminally liable, we

21     know what should have happened and we know what the police was supposed

22     to do.  If there were disciplinary breaches, again it wasn't up to the

23     commander -- excuse me, the head of the staff to do anything.

24        Q.   So this is another one of those orders like that first one we

25     looked at from Stojiljkovic, where it really wasn't serious, nobody

Page 25001

 1     needed to pay attention to it.  Is that what you're saying?  He had no

 2     power to issue the order, so people would just ignore him; is that your

 3     point?

 4        A.   I don't fully understand the question.

 5        Q.   Well, I'm not even going to try to repeat it?

 6             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, the question is very simple.  What is the

 7     point of this if the person sending it has got no authority to deal

 8     with or do anything about the information he gets?  We're in a war with

 9     little time to spare, if any, and the suggestion is this is a pointless

10     document.  So what do you say was the point of this?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've said something of the

12     sort already.  The role of the staff, among its other roles, was --

13             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just answer the question.  What's the point of

14     this document?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, that the secretariats are

16     reminded of their obligations.  I didn't carefully go through the whole

17     document, so as to be able to say exactly what I think of it.  If we look

18     into it, it is requested that urgent measures be taken in terms of

19     prosecuting crimes.  All perpetrators should be prosecuted in case they

20     violated the authority of the police and the laws pertaining to that

21     issue.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Ackerman.

23             MR. ACKERMAN:

24        Q.   Let's go to another document, 6D773, a very short document.  Can

25     you shed any light on what this document is, from who to who, things of

Page 25002

 1     that nature?

 2        A.   One can see from the document that the MUP staff is sending it to

 3     the secretariat in Pec and Djakovica.

 4        Q.   All right.  Then it says:  "Send the civilians from," what's

 5     Djurdjevdan?  Do you know what that is?

 6        A.   I don't, I don't, since I wasn't in Kosovo then.

 7        Q.   The Djurdjevdan operation, so there must have been some kind of

 8     operation, but it says maybe a code-name, you think?

 9        A.   I don't know.  According to this, it was the name of an action.

10        Q.   And, so, it is ordering that the civilians from that operation

11     should be sent back to their places of residence and that they should

12     undertake all security measures, right?

13        A.   Obviously, one concludes that, after certain actions, civilians

14     moved to safer areas.  Once the actions were completed, as we can see,

15     the intention was -- or rather, the tendency was to see the population

16     back to their places of residence, to their homes, and that the police

17     should undertake all security measures.  This should mean that it

18     shouldn't be allowed for some irresponsible individuals to be able to do

19     something that would be contrary to the law and to the rules of conduct

20     in any situation.

21        Q.   Well --

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  That's fine, please.

23             MR. ACKERMAN:

24        Q.   On whose authority would this have been sent?  Who had the

25     authority to issue this order in the MUP staff?

Page 25003

 1        A.   The intention was to retain the population in the territory of

 2     Kosovo and Metohija --

 3             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Adamovic --

 4             MR. ACKERMAN:  That's not the question.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  -- the question is:  Who had authority to send

 6     this?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see -- actually, there is no

 8     signature, I've just noticed.  The head of the staff should have been

 9     familiar with this dispatch that was sent -- rather, I don't really know

10     whether he was informed of that.

11             MR. ACKERMAN:

12        Q.   That's still not an answer to the question.  Who in the MUP staff

13     had or would have the authority to issue such a document?  Who in the MUP

14     staff could do this?

15        A.   The head of the staff.

16        Q.   Right.  That's all I have.

17             MR. ACKERMAN:  I have no more questions, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Cepic, do you have cross-examination?

21             MR. CEPIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we don't need you to start this evening, but

23     how long are you likely to take?

24             MR. CEPIC:  Roughly two hours, Your Honour, but I will check one

25     more time my questions and maybe I will cut.

Page 25004

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes.  Well, there is certainly no point in

 2     repeating the areas that have already been dealt with.  We would be

 3     grateful if you can look again at what's necessary in the circumstances.

 4             MR. CEPIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Adamovic, we need to bring today's proceedings

 6     to an end and adjourn until tomorrow.  That means you need to come back

 7     here to continue your evidence at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.  Meanwhile,

 8     it's a strict rule that we have that you should have no communication of

 9     any kind with anyone at all about any aspect of the evidence in this

10     case.  So please bear that in mind.

11             Please leave the courtroom now with the usher and we will see you

12     again tomorrow at 2.15.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of

16                           April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.