1 Tuesday, 8 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Sainovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone. We shall resume this
7 afternoon the evidence of Dragan Zivaljevic.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Zivaljevic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Cross-examination by the Prosecutor, Mr. Hannis,
12 will continue in a moment. Please bear in mind that the solemn
13 declaration to speak the truth which you gave at the very beginning of
14 your evidence continues to apply to your evidence today until it's
16 Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: DRAGAN ZIVALJEVIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
21 Q. Welcome back, Colonel. Last week, you spoke of an action that
22 some of your units engaged in in the Podujevo, area or actually in the
23 Palatna village area in May of 1999. We looked at an order that provided
24 tasking for some of those units, and you pointed out to us that there was
25 a reference in that order to JSO, but you thought that was a mistake
1 because you believed it was the SAJ that took part in that action. You
2 recall that?
3 A. Yes, I recall that. I think it had to do with the SAJ rather
4 than the JSO, and that was the mistake.
5 Q. Yes. And I would have you take a look now at Exhibit 5D1070. I
6 can hand you a hard copy. This is a combat report dated the 25th of May
7 from Colonel Gergar about that action in the general area of Palatna, and
8 he says that his brigade units were engaged in providing support to MUP
9 and SAJ forces. So that seems to be consistent with your memory that it
10 was the SAJ rather than the JSO that was engaged there and then?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And do you recall who the commander of the SAJ forces engaged in
13 that action was?
14 A. Commander of the SAJ forces was Zivko Trajkovic; however, I don't
15 remember. He was injured by a mine near the village of Bradas
16 remember now whether he had been injured before -- before. I can't
17 remember who the commander then, though, who stood in for him in that
19 Q. Okay. Do you know who his deputy was in 1999?
20 A. In 1999, a gentleman by the name of Stalovic [phoen], as far as I
21 can, remember was the deputy, and there was an assistant commander, Zoran
22 Simovic. I assume that it was one of the two who was in the area.
23 That's my assumption. I cannot make any assertions.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me move then to another document. You
25 were asked about this last week, it's Exhibit 5D506, and I'll trade you
1 hard copies with the help of the usher. This is another VJ combat
2 report, and this one is from the commander of the 354th. It's dated the
3 27th of April, and you were asked about this one.
4 There's a reference to -- I think it's in paragraph 3(b), where
5 it says: "The redeployed units of PJP are in our unit's zone of
6 responsibility and they are not complying with the orders and decisions
7 of the Podujevo Crisis Staff."
8 And you said, at page 24832, last week you thought this comment
9 was arbitrary, but I want to ask you a specific question: Do you know
10 what orders and decisions of the Podujevo Crisis Staff that refers to?
11 Do you know what kind of orders or decisions the Podujevo Crisis Staff
12 was issuing around April 1999?
13 A. I can talk about the time after that. It was afterwards that I
14 found out. This document was signed by Radosavljevic. I barely know the
15 gentleman. Perhaps I met him only once or twice in the area. I know
16 Mihajlo Gergar better who was the commander of another combat unit.
17 Later on, I heard that, in the municipality of Podujevo
18 some kind of a Crisis Staff after the state of war was declared. So I'm
19 aware of that detail, yes.
20 Q. Okay. Let me ask you some of these questions first. So were you
21 aware in April 1999 that there was a Crisis Staff in Podujevo?
22 A. You see, sometime in mid-April or around the 20th of April, there
23 was resubordination, and then the army took upon itself a more organized
24 role. I assume that it was then that they established the Crisis Staff
25 too. Of course, I joined in these activities. Everything that the army
1 ordered I implemented directly.
2 Q. Do you know who was on the Crisis Staff in Podujevo? Do you know
3 any of the people by name or by position?
4 A. I assume - well, I am not aware of the exact list - but I perhaps
5 heard that it was Gergar Mihajlo; I assume that this Mr. Radosavljevic
6 was there, too; and some members of the municipal administration.
7 Q. Did you attend any meetings of the Crisis Staff?
8 A. I showed up later at one of the meetings, but I did not know that
9 that had been established at first. But, later on, I showed up at one of
10 the meetings and we discussed the civilians, who at that time were
11 supposed to be deployed, or rather, to be sent back to the places that
12 they had fled from. So it is in relation to these activities that I
13 joined in; and, later on, I saw these people more often?
14 Q. Okay. The meeting that you attended, do you recall when that
15 was, approximately?
16 A. Well, I would have to link this meeting to the return of
17 civilians, after the civilians were on the move, when we talked about the
18 return of civilians to Podujevo. So it is only that date that I could
19 link it up to. If you allow me, I can find it somewhere. In my
20 statement, I can find that date.
21 Q. Well, let me move on to something else, and then maybe we'll come
22 back to it or Mr. Lukic will address it with you. The return of
23 civilians, are you talking about Kosovo Albanians or Serbians or both?
24 A. You see, Podujevo, for the most part, was populated by a majority
25 Albanian population. There were few percentage points of non-Albanians.
1 I believe that the Albanian people were a majority there.
2 Q. In an earlier answer today, you talked about, I guess, after the
3 20th of April, you said: "Everything that the army ordered I implemented
5 Why did you do that? Did someone tell you that you were now
6 subordinated to the army and you should do what they ordered?
7 A. Well, you see, since excerpts from the map were done by the army
8 and I came there to implement the tasks that were envisaged in these
9 excerpts, I carried out those tasks that had been envisaged there, in
10 those documents.
11 Q. I'll come back to that in a little bit, Colonel, but let me
12 continue on following my notes for now. Let me see if I can find another
13 exhibit. This is 5D436, and in a minute I'll hand you a hard copy, but
14 I'll tell you that this is another VJ document. It's a report about an
15 inspection tour, and let me hand you this hard copy in exchange for that
17 I think you were shown this when you testified last week, and
18 it's a report by General Velickovic about his tour of the 354th Brigade.
19 And if you could look at item number -- well, it's heading number 3 and
20 then it's item number 9 under number 3. It's on page 5 of the English
21 but I'm not sure what page it is in your B/C/S. I didn't mark that.
22 Do you find that?
23 A. I think I found it. Point 9, page 4 in Serbian.
24 Q. Yes, it says: "There's no single command in the zone of
25 responsibility of the brigade."
1 Is that the first sentence?
2 A. "In the zone of responsibility of the brigade, there is no
3 singleness of command." Yes, that's right.
4 Q. My question had to do with the next sentence. It said the
5 brigade commander had dissatisfaction with the conduct of the PJP which
6 didn't respect agreed times and axes of engagement. Were you aware of
7 any problem or failure on the part of the PJP to not respect agreed times
8 and axes of engagement with the 354th Brigade?
9 A. My answer has to be a bit extensive. On that previous day, I
10 gave an answer to that question. I don't know who put it. This is
11 completely incorrect. I had barely seen this gentleman, perhaps once or
12 twice down there, and I had very little cooperation with him. For the
13 most part, I cooperated with Mihajlo Gergar, Colonel Gergar; and, also,
14 there is a reference here to the PJP often resorting to looting, which is
15 totally improper. Also, there is a reference to the great
16 dissatisfaction of soldiers over the fact that the MUP units are better
17 equipped. Look at the argument he provides in relation to their units,
18 the equipment with communications and protection commitment.
19 Well, look, if he did notice that some crimes were being
20 committed, he should either have taken measures or told me about it. He
21 shouldn't have concealed it, not reporting a crime is a crime in our
22 country, in Serbia
23 had abused their positions. I think that these arguments are completely
24 out of order and wrong.
25 Q. That was a long answer. Let me ask you a few questions to follow
1 up. Do you know were there, other than your PJP units from the 122nd,
2 were there other PJP units that worked with the 354th Brigade during the
3 war prior to late May 1999. Is it possible he might be referring to some
4 units other than yours?
5 A. In that area, the SAJ unit was engaged; and, at one point, facing
6 Bajgora the JSO was involved. And in view of the fact that the area of
7 Podujevo is near Serbia
8 that took advantage of the fact that they were so nearby; and they would
9 engage in crime, looting, et cetera, so we had sears problems with that.
10 Q. But he seems to be talking particularly about the PJP, not about
11 the SAJ or the JSO. Were there any other PJP units that were engaged
12 with the 354th, or was it exclusively personnel from your 122nd?
13 A. Podujevo is an area that belongs to the broader area of
14 metropolitan Pristina. There was a PJP unit there, the 124th; and from
15 time to time, they were engaged for some work. I don't have a list of
16 such engagements, though.
17 Q. Okay. Now, you also took issue with this complaint about
18 looting, and I know last week you were also shown a document that was
19 written by General Lazarevic in late May 1999, where he was complaining
20 about the MUP committing crimes, not just looting but more serious crimes
21 as well. You can't speak for all police personnel, right? You only have
22 knowledge about your units and those people that you were working side by
23 side with, right?
24 A. Likewise, I state with full responsibility that there is even a
25 mention there of murders and rapes. So I claim with full responsibility
1 that, as for my knowledge, I was not aware of any murder or any rape. As
2 for some serious crimes, we did take measures and these persons were
3 brought into custody. These were policemen that we brought to justice.
4 Q. Yeah, I think you told us last week that you prosecuted -- your
5 command prosecuted over 70 cases of abuse. What were most of those 70
6 cases, if you remember?
7 A. Well, I gave the figure of 70 as an approximate figure. I'm not
8 sure whether it's 67, 68, 72, 75, et cetera; however, in paragraph 18 of
9 my statement, I describe a few cases when we filed crime -- criminal
10 reports against regular policemen from our unit who used their official
11 position as policemen and robbed an Albanian family. I can give you --
12 Q. Yeah, we have the statement. Thank you. Let me ask you about
13 call-signs. You mentioned that you think your radio call-sign in 1999
14 was Lazar; is that right?
15 A. That's right. That's right.
16 Q. When you were in Kosovo in 1998, do you recall what call-sign
17 your unit had?
18 A. When we came, I think it was Bor and then another one, and then,
19 ultimately, it was Lazar. I cannot say with any certainty when it was
20 that these changes took place. It's been such a long time, too long a
21 time for me to be able to state anything specific now.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. You were asked about your participation in an
23 action called Drenica 1. I think that's the one that's reflected in
24 Exhibit 6D712. You said you didn't personally participate in that one
25 but that your deputy Nikolic did. You remember that?
1 A. Yes, I remember that.
2 Q. And when you returned to your location, he told you about a
3 problem that had occurred. He complained about the way he had been
4 treated, I guess, by the VJ. Where were you on that occasion? Why
5 weren't you involved in that action? Where were you and what were you
7 A. I was in the area of Podujevo. A smaller unit was supposed to
8 provide assistance in that area at that time, Drenica 1; and my deputy
9 went there with two companies, I believe. He reported to the army combat
10 group there, and he joined in the task that he was assigned to carry out.
11 Q. Yes. I think you told us last week, at page 24840, that Nikolic
12 complained when he got there with the two companies the army wanted to
13 assign him to two different axes, and it was difficult. He couldn't do
14 that, and so there was a problem. Did you write any report about what
15 had happened to Nikolic after that? Did you write any report up the
16 chain to complain about that?
17 A. When Nikolic came back from that area, as I've already
18 explained - if necessary, I can repeat it - I think that a military
19 combat group had not shown up, the 37th, I believe; and, therefore, he
20 was supposed to be deployed in an area that was too wide for him and his
21 forces. So he complained about their attitude. He carried out all the
22 tasks there in accordance with the command of the military commander who
23 was there. At this moment, I don't know which military commander this
25 I think that, in relation to this I complained, but orally, to
1 Obrad Stevanovic when I saw him. So it wasn't on those days but the days
2 after that. When I came across him, I complained about this attitude. I
3 said that this was not fair, and that such things should be avoided in
4 the future.
5 Q. Okay. Was that the first extent of your complaint about this,
6 then, was the oral complaint you made to Obrad Stevanovic? You didn't
7 complain to anybody else, either orally or in writing?
8 A. As far as I can remember, it was topical then, and that is when I
9 stated that to General Stevanovic. I do not recall anything else in
10 relation to that. I do not remember having complained to anyone else.
11 Q. With regard to reporting, Judge Bonomy had asked you a question
12 last week, at page 24843. He said: "When you were asked when the action
13 was over, did you write a report to the Joint Command or something?"
14 Then you said: "We just filed a report."
15 "Now, where did you file it?"
16 You said: "Not to the Joint Command. When all activities were
17 completed, I filed a report to the police administration to the MUP in
19 Do you know where that report would be now?
20 A. I don't know with any certainty. I wrote a brief report, a
21 summary of what it was that I was doing. It is possible that in that
22 report I partly described the problem that you mentioned a while ago, and
23 I sent it to the first administration of the police; that is, an
24 organizational unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
25 whether it's still there. I really cannot say.
1 Q. Do you remember did you also copy anyone else on that report,
2 like a SUP chief or the MUP staff or anyone else?
3 A. No, no, no. I did that in Belgrade
4 Pristina; that is to say, I couldn't have sent anything to them and I did
5 not have an obligation to send that to the staff.
6 Q. You mention reporting to Obrad Stevanovic when you would see him.
7 When and how often did you see him in 1999, during the time that you were
8 there? Would you see him once a week? Every day?
9 A. Very seldom. As far as I can remember, I attended perhaps one or
10 two meetings; and he, well, I don't dare say anything specific now, but I
11 don't think that he saw me more than twice in that area of Podujevo. But
12 I did hear that he was on the move from time to time in certain locations
13 in Kosovo.
14 Q. When Obrad Stevanovic was not around, who did you report to or
15 did you simply not report to anybody?
16 A. I did not report to anybody. I did not send reports. On this
17 occasion, I said this to Obrad Stevanovic orally, as I said, because I
18 hoped that he would pass that on to the military officers at a higher
20 Q. So why did you not report? You and your units were engaged in
21 actions in 1999. Were you relying on the VJ to report about what your
22 MUP units had done in those actions or was nobody interested? I don't
24 A. Well, frankly, I wouldn't like to talk about the shortcomings of
25 the organizational aspect of all of this, but I know for sure about the
1 army - they showed this to me - where they submitted reports, documents,
2 to their command. We were not duty-bound, we did not have that
3 obligation; and, on the other hand, we had problems in terms of our
4 capacity to communicate. Soon the bombing started and the communications
5 were severely impaired; and it was very difficult to communicate,
6 especially towards the staff, the MUP, and some other services.
7 Q. You mentioned Friday - and we looked at the dispatch that sent
8 you to Kosovo in March of 1999, and I think that was Exhibit 6D291 - and
9 you've told us that prior to being sent down there in March 1999, you had
10 been there in January 1999. But I think you told us you didn't have a
11 copy of that dispatch that sent you in January 1999, right?
12 A. As for January, this is a period that was not included in this
13 dispatch; that is, the period when our forces were reduced in terms of
14 our presence down there. In Decani, I was attached to the SUP to carry
15 out their regular tasks and duties with a small unit.
16 Q. And -- but you don't have the document reflecting that dispatch,
17 right? I think you told us you don't have a copy of that one.
18 A. I certainly don't.
19 Q. Who sent you that time, was that also General Djordjevic in
20 January 1999?
21 A. The January task is something I took over from another person. I
22 think there had been a unit in Decani as early as November and December
23 in shifts. I came there for some 20 to 25 days as part of a shift to
24 work in the background of Decani and the monastery that is there, to
25 assist the SUP of Pec and Decani. There was a dispatch which covered
1 several shifts.
2 Q. My question is: Do you recall, did that dispatch originate from
3 Vlastimir Djordjevic?
4 A. I suppose that Vlastimir Djordjevic sent it to my chief of
5 secretariat, who then conveyed the task to me, or he may have sent it
6 directly; but I do believe that it came from the sector chief.
7 Q. Now, what about July 1998, you told us that you were sent down to
8 Kosovo in July 1998. Do you have a copy of whatever dispatch or document
9 sent you there at that time?
10 A. I'm sorry, I don't.
11 Q. Do you know who that one came from?
12 A. I think the basic rule is that the sector chief appoints and
13 sends people out. As to whether he authorised anyone to draft that
14 dispatch, I don't know, but I was told by my secretariat chief to go and
15 attend to this task.
16 Q. All right. There was -- there were a few questions to you about
17 who your commander was in 1998 and 1999, and you mentioned that you knew
18 until 1997 that Obrad Stevanovic was the commander of the PJP, but you
19 seemed somewhat uncertain about whether he was still in that position in
20 1998 and 1999 because you mentioned that he had become an assistant
21 minister during that time-period, right?
22 If it was not Obrad Stevanovic, who was it? Who else could it
23 have been?
24 A. I said that, until 1977 [as interpreted], that he was appointed
25 as commander; later on, he was appointed assistant minister. I don't
1 know whether he retained his commanding position, since as the assistant
2 minister, he was in charge of all uniformed police affairs in Serbia
3 which is one level up.
4 Q. Okay. My question is: Do you know who would have been in the
5 level in between his position as an assistant minister and your position
6 as commander of the 122nd Intervention Brigade? Do you know?
7 A. Let me tell you, I think the staff was subordinate to that level
8 of control as regards the sector chief and the chief of police affairs;
9 however, I had no obligations towards the staff in the sense of command.
10 It was a consultative or a service sort of relationship in terms of
11 taking care of the wounded, notifying the families of those who had been
12 killed, and so on and so forth, or perhaps forwarding documents.
13 Q. There's just one little error in the transcript I want to clear
14 up with you. It has you down as saying: "I said that, until 1977"
15 Stevanovic was appointed as commander; and later on ..."
16 It was 1997, I think, you told us before; not 1977, but 1997. Is
17 that right?
18 A. 1997.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, if we could take a look at Exhibit 5D1418.
21 Q. This is one that Mr. Bakrac, the lawyer for General Lazarevic,
22 showed you. 5D1418.
23 MR. HANNIS: If we could go I think to the second page. I don't
24 have it in English.
25 Q. Do you remember looking at this one before? I think there were a
1 pair of telegrams, one from you and then one back to you. Do you
2 remember this?
3 A. I do.
4 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the next page in B/C/S, I think my
5 question pertains to that one.
6 Q. And if I remember correctly, this was on the 26th of May 1999.
7 You told us that this related to a humanitarian action regarding the
8 return of civilians, but doesn't that say in there something about
9 arresting all the men of military age? Is that right?
10 A. Not in this part; but if that was your question --
11 Q. Was that on the previous page? Did I get my pages mixed up?
12 A. As far as I recall, there was a sentence like that; but, however,
13 I can still reply.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. As a part of the correspondence, when my radio man sent it out,
16 we received a reply. I stated that there were some 150 armed combatants
17 of the KLA escorting the refugee groups in front or at the back from
18 Podujevo. We had an exchange of correspondence to see where the refugees
19 should be returned to. The fact that there were around 150 combatants
20 was also mentioned.
21 When we tried to approach the group, fire was opened on my
22 policemen. We couldn't react since we could not open fire at the
23 civilians. Those 150 were not arrested. We had no possibility to do so.
24 They either discarded their weapons and mingled with the civilians or
25 they fled, and this is something we had to live with.
1 Q. So, on that occasion, did you then not arrest anybody, any
2 military-aged men or otherwise?
3 A. No. No one was arrested. We transported a few families, some
4 wounded, there was a woman about to deliver and our assistance was
5 requested to take them to Podujevo.
6 Q. I would next like to show you an exhibit. That's Exhibit P3130,
7 and I'll hand you a hard copy. This is the minutes of a meeting of the
8 ministry staff for Kosovo held on the 2nd of November, 1998. Am I right,
9 you were not in Kosovo in November 1998; is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. I will ask you a couple questions anyway, just to see if you were
12 aware of this or heard about it either when you returned to Kosovo or in
13 conversations with colleagues in the PJP, because this meeting indicates
14 that the commanders of all the detachments attended.
15 On I think it's the second page of the document you have -- well,
16 wait a second. On the first page you have, let me ask you first about
17 item number 6. It's armoured vehicles and weapons of a calibre greater
18 than 7.9 millimetres must not be moved, engaged, or used without
19 agreement and permission from the staff.
20 Now, prior to this, when you were in Kosovo in July for two or
21 two and a half months, were there any limitations on your use in the PJP
22 of armoured vehicles or weapons of a calibre larger than 7.9 millimetres?
23 A. Well, the PJP did not have -- I can tell you this: There was a
24 police brigade as part of the SUP in brigade, and it had only one
25 armoured combat vehicle. They also had a so-called TAB; I don't know how
1 to explain that. It was inoperative most of the time, and I think they
2 had a Praga dating before World War II, a very old piece. There were
3 very few such pieces at the disposal of the PJP. Save for the regular
4 infantry weapons, we had the odd mortar or so, and that was the only
5 thing that we could have at the time.
6 Q. How about when you returned in -- either in January 1999 or later
7 in March 1999, did your PJP units have any armoured vehicles or weapons
8 larger than 7.9 millimetres?
9 A. In that period before March we did not have any, for sure, except
10 for the handgun, the official handgun, it was 9 millimetres in calibre.
11 Later on, perhaps during the spring, we received several armoured
12 vehicles from the army. I don't have that list with me; therefore, I
13 cannot be any more specific.
14 Q. When you came back to Kosovo in January 1999 and then again in
15 March 1999, did you in your PJP unit have any dealings with members of
16 the KVM, the OSCE mission?
17 A. Certainly. In January, we had cooperation. We had frequent
18 contacts. There was also an incident of sorts in Decani. When there was
19 a shift of policemen, they wouldn't take my word for it, and I asked them
20 to accompany us to see that there was a shift about to take place. As it
21 happened, the Siptar terrorist forces opened fire at the column, and two
22 men from the OSCE were injured on that occasion. I think it was the 14th
23 or the 15th of January in Decani.
24 Q. If you could turn to the next page, I think it's the following
25 page for you.
1 MR. HANNIS: In English, I'm still on page 3 of the document, and
2 I think it's page 4 of the B/C/S in e-court.
3 Q. Item number 8, do you see that? It talks about: "In villages
4 with Serbian inhabitants, take additional protection measures ..."
5 Then go down to the next sentence, where it says: "Make sure
6 that Serbs and members of the RPO," translated here as reserve police
7 squads, "do not misuse weapons, let off guns at weddings, et cetera, do
8 not carry weapons or show them in public in the presence of members of
9 the mission."
10 It goes on: "When on guard duty, use one weapon and prevent
11 individuals from bringing in the weapon they have been issued. Tell them
12 not to state the fact that Serbs are armed and to explain this fact, if
13 they must, using the excuse that it is only members of the guard who are
15 Now, when you were back in Kosovo in January and then in March
16 1999, were you aware of this, that you should try and take steps not to
17 let the KVM mission know that Serbs, and I take this means Serbs other
18 than the VJ and the active-duty police, were armed? Did you know about
20 A. I cannot tell you anything about the RPO. I'm not familiar with
21 that area, and I have no knowledge of it. While I was in Decani, there
22 were no Serbs in its environs, except for the monastery and the people
23 there. In March when I arrived in Podujevo, there was several Serb
24 houses in Podujevo town itself, not outside.
25 Q. The last thing I want to ask you about on this document is item
1 number 10, which says: "The MUP staff in Pristina will now take on the
2 role of planning, and the secretariats will have greater independence in
3 carrying out their regular actions or regular duties, tasks, and
4 obligations ..."
5 Then the last sentence says: "Commanders and deputy-commanders
6 will take command of the dispatched units - 'A' units of the PJP - and
7 all units come under the secretariats."
8 What was the situation when you came back to Kosovo in January
9 1999 and then in March 1999 in terms of the relationship between the PJP
10 and the SUPs? Were the PJPs independent or did they report to the SUPs?
11 How did that work?
12 A. In January, whenever I could, I attended the collegium meetings
13 of the SUPs of Pec and Decani. Daily, I visited the Decani OUP. I had
14 immediate contact with them since we carried out our regular police
15 duties. There were no actions at that time. In March, we had certain
16 things planned but could not see them through, because soon we saw the
17 commencement of air-strikes and we changed our work mode as well as
18 launched different actions.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me move on then to another meeting. This
20 is --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
22 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: This is quite an extensive cross-examination. The
24 law of diminishing returns does appear to be setting in.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think I --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I mean, the last couple of answers really weren't
2 answers that were of any assistance to us at all. The statements are
3 clear in the documents.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have about six additional documents I
5 wanted to ask him about. I'll try and be done in 15, 20 minutes.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
8 Q. The next one I want to ask you about, Colonel, is Exhibit P1990.
9 This is a MUP staff meeting on the 17th of February. I can hand you a
10 hard copy of this one as well. Do you recall, were you still in Kosovo
11 at this time, in February of 1999?
12 A. No. I was there in January and returned by that time.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I don't recall being at this meeting.
15 Q. All right. Then let me show you Exhibit P1989, and this one I
16 believe you will be familiar with. I'll hand you a hard copy of this
17 one. This is from the 4th of April, 1999. This is a meeting of the
18 senior police officials in Kosovo and Metohija with the chiefs of the
19 SUPs and the detachment commanders, and it also lists the SAJ and JSO
20 commanders, General Stevanovic and General Lukic.
21 Do you recall this meeting? You're mentioned on page 3 as having
23 A. That's right. I remember being at that meeting.
24 Q. And you see on page 3 - that's page 3 of the English and page 3
25 of the B/C/S - you mention that the task has been fully completed. The
1 territory is under control. You say refugees were going towards
2 Medvedja? Where is Medvedja? I couldn't find that on my map. Is that
3 in Serbia
4 A. Medvedja is in the direction of Serbia towards Vranje. That
5 would be it more or less.
6 Q. Is it actually in Serbia
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And were these refugees you're referring to, are those Serbian
9 refugees or Kosovo Albanians or both?
10 A. I can't say with any degree of certainty, but I think they were
12 Q. Okay. You see, right below, there's an entry for Zivko Trajkovic
13 as the SAJ commander; and, below him, Radislav Staljevic the SAJ
14 commander in Pristina; below that, there's an entry translated in English
15 as Milorad Jankovic, JSO commander. Do you remember a JSO commander
16 being at this meeting?
17 A. I cannot remember him being there, but I do see there is an
18 error. JSO commander is not Jankovic, as stated here, but Lukovic.
19 Q. And we've heard other evidence about the JSO commander being the
20 man that we have called by the nickname Legija. Is that the same person
21 you're talking about?
22 A. I suppose so; although, there may have been a Milorad Jankovic
23 standing in, but his name was Milorad Lukovic, a.k.a. Legija.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you recall if Legija was at this meeting?
25 A. I saw him during that year on several occasions; but if it is in
1 the document, I suppose it's true.
2 Q. Well, I'm just trying to figure out if this is a typographical
3 error and it should say Milorad Lukovic, or if there really was somebody
4 named Milorad Jankovic in the JSO that attended this meeting, if you
6 A. I know Milorad Lukovic, a.k.a. Legija. I don't know any Milorad
7 Jankovic, and I suppose it was a typo.
8 Q. Let me ask you next about Exhibit P2011. This is from the 20th
9 of May, 1999, and it's from the Pristina Corps command signed by Colonel
10 Kotur. This is an order for an operation called Sekac. Have you seen
11 this document before coming here to testify?
12 A. I don't remember having seen this document.
13 Q. Okay. If you could look at item number 5.1, I think it's on page
14 4 of the English and I think it's on page 4 of the B/C/S as well. It's
15 task for units, and item 5.1 is for the 122nd MUP Detachment of a
16 strength of three PJP companies. Did you find that?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Do you remember this action and whether or not parts of your
19 122nd took part in it?
20 A. I have to add something. In that area, it was Bosko Buha who
21 commanded that part of the detachment, and there was his assistant
23 I have no insight of these activities.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Then I just have two final documents I want to
25 ask you about. The first one is Exhibit number 6D1023. I'll hand you a
1 hard copy. This is entitled: "Joint forces engagement plan." Military
2 secret attachment number 2, Pristina Corps command 25 April 1999. Did
3 you see this document before coming into court to testify?
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: I know it's a technical point and I know the
7 Prosecution did supplement their list for cross-examination I believe
8 just this morning, but this document was neither on the original list nor
9 on the supplemental list, to my knowledge.
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it was on a supplemental list I
11 received from the Defence as one they were going to use in their direct
13 MR. IVETIC: I stand corrected then.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
15 Please continue, Mr. Hannis.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
17 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel, did you hear my question? Did you have a
18 chance to see this document before you came into court to testify?
19 A. I've never seen this document.
20 Q. Okay. You'll see there are three headings across the top:
21 Combined operations unit, which list what appear to be VJ units; then
22 there's a column called reinforcements, which have primarily what appear
23 to be either border guard units or military district units and deployed
24 volunteers; and the third column says resubordinated forces executing
1 Do you see that third column? You'll see, under item number 1
2 with the 125th Motorised Brigade, that the 122nd Intervention Brigade is
3 listed. Do you see that?
4 A. I see it in item 1, the third column.
5 Q. Yes, yes. Do you recall, in or around the 25th of April, 1999
6 whether some parts of your 122nd Intervention Brigade were executing
7 tasks with the 125th Motorised Brigade?
8 A. No, no. It was probably the part of the detachment that had to
9 do with Pec, Bosko Buha, because this is something that I'm totally
10 unfamiliar with.
11 Q. Okay. If you could go to the second page, then, there in the
12 third column, there are four additional references to the 122nd
13 Intervention Brigade. You'll see, item number 7, the 252nd Armoured
14 Brigade. Do you recall, in late April 1999, were elements of the 122nd
15 engaged in tasks with the 252nd?
16 A. No. But in item 10, with the 211th, perhaps I could find
17 activities of the detachment that I was in.
18 Q. And how about under item number 9, with the 15th Armoured
19 Brigade, or item number 12, with the 354th?
20 A. Under number 9, I don't see the 354th. I don't see that written
21 anywhere, and I don't recognise these other units under number 9.
22 Q. Under number 9, the 15th Armoured Brigade, is the VJ unit.
23 A. No, no. I'm unfamiliar with that, too, that which is under
24 number 9.
25 Q. But number 12, the 354th, that you told us before was a unit that
1 you did have some engagement with, right, because we saw that document
2 where there were complaints about the PJP from the commander in the
4 A. That's right. I've already answered that question, and then
5 there's the 211th Armoured Brigade that I cooperated with.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you know Goran Guri Radosavljevic?
7 A. I knew him. I knew him. I knew Mr. Radosavljevic.
8 Q. What was his position or what was his job, first of all, in July
9 of 1998, do you know?
10 A. As far as I can remember, he was appointed as member of the staff
11 for training, the training of PJP units.
12 Q. Okay. And how about in 1999, do you know what his position was?
13 A. I think that he continued with those activities, as far as I
14 know, but I saw him very seldom.
15 Q. All right. Thank you, sir.
16 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
19 Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I would
21 have some additional questions based on the cross-examination by
22 Mr. Hannis. It only has to do with two topics: The topic of
23 resubordination that was dealt with today and this other topic that I
24 think you were surprised by, too; I mean the answer that was provided on
25 Thursday in relation to that particular order of the Pristina Corps that
1 allegedly the witness received through the MUP staff. So one or two
2 questions respectively with regard to these two subjects.
3 Resubordination, today we heard something completely different.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: These arise only if you say that something the
5 witness has said in this cross-examination has adversely affected the
6 case for your Defence; is that the position?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That is what I
8 say with regard to both matters. They adversely affect our Defence case
9 because it was my understanding that today on page 1 -- on page 5, lines
10 1 through 5, the witness said --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue and let's see what emerges.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zivaljevic, if you remember on Thursday,
15 during my examination and on transcript page 24858, lines 19 through 21,
16 I asked you whether Colonel Gergar had command over you. Your answer was
17 that you would not call that command, that he did not command you, that
18 you only cooperated with him.
19 Immediately after, that on page 24859, lines 1 -- lines 2, 3, 4,
20 I asked you whether at any point in time, in 1998 or in 1999, you were
21 resubordinated to the army and to Colonel Gergar. You said no, quite
22 literally, "no, I only cooperated with him and I listened to his
24 Today you said to us, on page 5/1, that you came to Kosovo on
25 orders; and when these maps were issued, you were resubordinated to the
1 Army of Yugoslavia
2 Thursday or today?
3 MR. IVETIC: I object to the form of the question. If he's going
4 to ask a question, he's going to have to ask a legitimate question, not
5 in that type of form where he's essentially making arguments.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, this sort of additional
7 cross-examination should be confined to a very pointed question. Now,
8 what is the question you want to ask? We don't want to hear your
9 arguments at this stage.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. My question is whether at any point of time you were
12 resubordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia or the commander of the 211th
13 Armoured Brigade?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just one second. Your quotation from today's
15 evidence was that he said he was resubordinated to the Army of Yugoslavia
16 on page 5, line 1. Now, let's look at page 5, line 1.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Up until 5, Your Honour. Your
18 Honour, it's line 3 -- or rather, 1 through 3, sorry, and 4 and 5 --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Give us a moment.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] -- or rather, 4 and 5.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, this isn't a suitable area for further
23 cross-examination by you. The answers that the witness has given we will
24 look at in the overall context and evaluate his evidence. You don't,
25 just because he says something slightly different or in any way different
1 from earlier, automatically have the right to re-cross-examine. That
2 would mean that we would be going back and forward across the courtroom
4 Now, let's hear what your next matter is, but I suspect none of
5 them are appropriate for further cross-examination.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I will
7 try, and I hope this will be more appropriate.
8 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, on Thursday, you said to us that you received
9 plans --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: This isn't the way to go about this. If you have
11 a specific question you want to put that requires to be answered so that
12 you can avoid prejudice, then put it; but don't let's have a narrative of
13 the competing versions of the evidence and then an assertion by you that
14 one or other must be right and the other wrong. That's not the way to do
15 this. It doesn't sound to me as though you are doing anything other than
16 trying to argue a case at this stage, rather than seek answers that will
17 help us to come to an accurate determination of the evidence.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to show a
19 document and put one single question; after that, I will have no further
20 questions. The document is 6D291. It's a dispatch of the assistant
21 minister, chief of the public security sector, Vlastimir Djordjevic. On
22 several occasions today and earlier on, the witness said that he'd like
23 to have this before him, so I would like to have it displayed to the
24 witness on the screen, and he can tell me then --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: The witness had it before him on Thursday, didn't
1 he, and that's the dispatch sending him to Kosovo?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And after that,
3 during the cross-examination by Mr. Hannis on Thursday - that's what I
4 was trying to explain to you - he said that he received orders and maps
5 in an envelope from the MUP staff and that he worked on the basis of this
6 dispatch. He acted on the basis of the dispatch that was sent -- that
7 sent him to Kosovo.
8 So my question is for him to have a look at the dispatch and tell
9 us where there are instructions by the assistant minister telling him
10 that he should act in accordance with military plans. That's my only
11 question, nothing further.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, this is a situation where the document
14 was available to the Defence of Mr. Lazarevic. I think they even
15 introduced the document or had it on their list. It was used with the
16 witness, and they clearly had an opportunity to present their
17 cross-examination at that point in time. It would appear that they're
18 trying to basically sideline the regular procedures in this case and have
19 a second bite at the apple. I don't think they're permitted.
20 Secondly, if they're going to rely on representations about what
21 the witness did or didn't say in order to try and have a second bite at
22 this apple, I would request that they give precise quotations to the
23 record of all their assertions, as the prior assertion in this case, the
24 transcript page that showed, did not say what they perhaps thought it to
1 So I think we should have a full picture if, in fact, they have a
2 grounds for asking further questions at this stage, but I submit they do
3 not insofar as the document was available to them, and this is clearly
4 not something new that has come up to them.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: More importantly than any of that, the document is
7 there for us to read and to draw our own inferences from the document.
8 So we will not allow further cross-examination on that basis, Mr. Bakrac.
9 Now, Mr. Ivetic, is there re-examination?
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes, there is, Your Honour. We still have -- we're
11 going until quarter to in this session; is that correct?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
15 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, I do have some questions arising from your
16 cross-examination these past few days, to clarify some things. First of
17 all, last week, when my colleague Mr. Bakrac asked you about uniforms,
18 this is at the 11th page of that transcript from Thursday, lines 9
19 through 19, it is recorded as follows.
20 The question was: "Mr. Zivaljevic, could you please be so kind
21 as to tell me the members of your detachments wore what kind of uniforms?
22 "A. Well, it depended on the period, the time-period in which
23 they took part. As far as I can remember, in the period of 1998, for the
24 most part they wore camouflage uniforms for urban actions; that is, the
25 grey-blue camouflage. Towards the end of that year when these uniforms
1 could be issued, then green camouflage uniforms were issued. These were
2 uniforms that were used subsequently after that in 1999.
3 "Q. So you had grey camouflage as well?
4 "A. Before that during 1999, sometime up until the autumn, I
5 cannot say with certainty that it was grey camouflage uniforms."
6 And at paragraph 8 of your statement, you described the uniforms
7 that are worn, and the question I have for you is: What did you
8 precisely mean with the reference to grey-blue camouflage uniforms and
9 grey camouflage uniforms in this exchange with Mr. Bakrac that is
10 recorded in the transcript?
11 A. Please, I meant blue-grey camouflage uniforms. I probably said
12 grey-blue, but it doesn't really make a difference. Blue-grey camouflage
13 uniforms, definitely. Blue-grey camouflage uniforms.
14 Q. Okay. Now, one other matter came up. Actually, Mr. Hannis also
15 made reference to it. If I was smart, I would have put down the updated
16 translate pages, and inserted lines from the ones that are on my version
17 of LiveNote.
18 But at page 47, at lines 5 through 10, the questioning from the
19 honourable Judge Bonomy, you were asked about the reports, and you said
20 you filed a report to the police administration in the MUP building. The
21 question I have for you is: When did you file this report that you
22 mentioned in response to the Judge's question?
23 A. After all these activities, we submitted a brief report to the
24 police administration.
25 Q. Would that have been -- would that have been in the course of the
1 war, before or after the withdrawal? Can you pin it down any more
2 specifically in terms of the time-period?
3 A. After returning to Belgrade
4 conditions, we didn't have an office out in the field, we didn't have the
5 necessary facilities, we went back to Belgrade, we wrote that up, and
6 submitted it.
7 Q. Okay.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: That still doesn't answer when, does it?
9 MR. IVETIC: I agree, it does not, Your Honour.
10 Q. Can you -- well, let me try and direct it this way. If we focus
11 on the end of the war, June of 1999, do you know whether this report was
12 authored by you before or after the end of the war?
13 A. Well, I assume - I don't know the exact date - but I assume that
14 it's in June, the end of June, or perhaps the beginning of July 1999.
15 Q. Okay. Today, Mr. Hannis asked you about Exhibit P3130 and the
16 statement relating to movements of armoured vehicles with guns in excess
17 of 7.9 millimetres.
18 Are you at all familiar with the types of vehicles foreseen for
19 police patrols by the Byrnes-Djordjevic agreement for the time period
20 when the KVM was in Kosovo and Metohija?
21 A. If I'm not mistaken, this is the period from October 1998 until
22 March; is that right? As far as I can remember, since I did spend a
23 shift in Decani, in Kosovo --
24 Q. Hang on. Stay close to my question. My question is very
25 specific. Are you familiar with the types of vehicles foreseen by -- for
1 police patrols by the so-called Byrnes-Djordjevic agreement for the
2 time-period during the KVM mission in Kosovo and Metohija?
3 A. I think I am aware of that.
4 Q. And --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that agreement exhibited?
6 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour. I just don't have the exhibit
8 JUDGE BONOMY: So do you need to ask the witness if your point is
10 MR. IVETIC: To find out the witness's knowledge so that I can
11 perhaps ask the next --
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Does his knowledge matter?
13 MR. IVETIC: Well, as far as the Prosecution asked him what his
14 knowledge was of this particular -- or these particular facts, I think it
15 does matter.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: But what he told you was that the detachment from
18 equipment anyway. However --
19 MR. IVETIC: And if that is the only inference that is presented
20 by the Prosecution from this document, then I don't have any questions,
21 but I suspect it's not.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Continue.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Do you know the role of Mr. Mijatovic from the MUP staff in
25 Pristina vis-a-vis the Kosovo Verification Mission during the time-period
1 it was on the ground over there?
2 A. Well, I cannot give you any comments on that. I am not very
3 familiar with what it was that he was doing.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, at -- today, at page 19, lines 1 through 4, you
5 were responding to a question posed by Mr. Hannis of whether PJPs were
6 independent or did they report to the SUPs.
7 You said in lines -- page 19, lines 1 through 4: "There were no
8 actions at that time. In March, we had certain things planned but could
9 not see them through, because soon we saw the commencement of air-strikes
10 and changed our work mode as well as launched different actions."
11 When you say you launched different actions, what actions are you
12 referring to?
13 A. When I came to Podujevo, an excerpt from the map was waiting for
14 me there, telling me what it was that I was supposed to do there.
15 Actions started, therefore, and I got involved in my work in relation to
16 that task.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Now, at -- last week, on Thursday, Mr. Bakrac showed you Exhibit
20 P1990, minutes of a meeting at the MUP staff dated the 17th of February,
21 1999, and he asked you to read the portion of that, wherein it states
22 that the staff is planning to carry out or plans to carry out once
23 ordered actions in the region of Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica.
24 I'd like to take a look at two documents in this regard.
25 MR. IVETIC: First off, if we can have Exhibit Number 4D365.
1 Q. As you will see, this is a document from the command of the 3rd
2 Army dated the 1st of February, 1999. If we look at item number 5 on the
3 second page, you could read that entire portion to us, so that we're on
4 the --
5 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, it should be the second page of both copies I
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, there must be a purpose in this, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: There is, indeed.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a document the witness is familiar with?
10 MR. IVETIC: It refers to regions that I'm hoping that the
11 witness is familiar with, since the Prosecution asked him about a meeting
12 that he was not present -- pardon me, that Mr. Bakrac asked him about a
13 meeting he was not present for and asked him about actions in a
14 particular area.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
16 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to figure out whether the witness has any
17 knowledge of the areas listed in this document because I believe there's
18 a connection I'm about to show.
19 Q. Mr. Zivaljevic, looking at item 5, we have it both on the screen
20 in Serbian and English, so you don't need to read it out loud, but please
21 review it for yourself. We see that the Pristina Corps command is
22 responsible to draft a plan and to ensure coordination with units of the
23 Republic of Serbia MUP for the region Drenica, Lab, and Malisevo.
24 How does this geographical region compare to the area that was
25 the cited in the minutes of the meeting of the MUP staff, which again
1 from the testimony -- from the documents shown to you by Mr. Bakrac has
2 Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. This is a
4 leading question.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll repel that objection. It's not a leading
7 question. It's a question designed to clarify what may otherwise remain
9 So you may answer the question, Mr. Zivaljevic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Briefly, the command of the
11 Pristina Corps will draft a plan, and it has to do with the areas of
12 Drenica, Lab, and Malisevo. Lab is Malo Kosovo above Podujevo, except
13 that the name is called differently in one way of speaking and
14 differently in this other way of speaking. There is no further comment
15 that I can make. So I got involved in these tasks in accordance with
17 May I add something? I beg your pardon. When I arrived, that
18 task was waiting for me there, and I was carrying out directly work
19 envisaged under this task in the area of Lab or Malo Kosovo. Let me be
20 specific on that.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. If we can then move, we see from this document --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we relate that to what is also described as
24 Dragobilje? Does that mean anything to you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not Dragobilje. Malo
1 Kosovo, Malo Kosovo. Lab or Malo Kosovo, that's the area.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Do you know what region Dragobilje is? Is there another name for
6 the region Dragobilje, if you know?
7 A. I don't know. I really don't know that.
8 Q. If we can have -- you see that the dead-line for this planning by
9 the Pristina Corps command is the 15th of February, 1999, and if we can
10 look at another document P2808.
11 A. I see it now. I saw it just now. I beg your pardon.
12 Q. Sorry. You just saw what now?
13 A. The dead-line, that's what you asked me about again.
14 Q. And looking at this document from the Pristina Corps command
15 dated the 16th of February, 1999, for breaking up and destroying the STS
16 in the region of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo; and, again, I ask
17 you to take a -- we have the same -- if we could take a closer look at
18 page 5 of the Serbian, paragraph 5.1, this is the assignments for units.
19 Do you recognise any of the assignments listed herein?
20 A. I do. I recognise the unit and that part of the task.
21 Q. You say you recognise the unit and the part of the task. Do you
22 recognise these as being tasks of a particular unit?
23 A. Yes. 5/1 TT 211 from the area of deployment, that pertains to
24 the unit -- excuse me, the unit commanded by Mihajlo Gergar. Kursumlija
25 is the southern-most town in Serbia
1 Palatna, Kursumlijska, Banja, and so forth, and Luzane, Donja Lapastica,
2 Donja Obranca, that's above Podujevo. I participated in that part
3 according to the task I had. In the second part, where it says "task,"
4 it says: "Together, with the forces of the 22nd Detachment of the PJP
5 and the SAJ of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
6 and so on and so forth.
7 Q. No need for you to read any further.
8 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, we're at the break. I apologise
9 for overriding. I still have a handful of questions, but it will be
10 brief within ten, 15 minutes or so after the break.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: When you say your instructions were awaiting you
12 when you arrived in Podujevo, who did these instructions come from?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a map excerpt. When I
14 met with the military group commander Gergar, he explained the task
15 professionally to me, and that was the initial part. After that, I began
16 working on that task directly. I was engaged in that part of the task
17 directly, the task that was envisaged. It is this task that we have on
18 the screen.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Who did you actually receive the map excerpt from?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My courier came back with it. I
22 suppose it came through the staff. My courier went there and brought the
23 excerpt back.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 We need to have a break again at this stage, Mr. Zivaljevic, that
1 will be for 20 minutes. Could you leave the courtroom and we will resume
2 at ten past 4.00.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you wanted to raise something in the
7 absence of the witness?
8 MR. HANNIS: I did, Your Honour. Thank you. It pertains to a
9 matter that's been discussed just recently on the re-direct. It relates
10 to Exhibit P2808, which is the Pristina Corps command document from
11 General Lazarevic dated the 16th of February, 1999, regarding operations
12 in the area of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo. There is a related
13 document. What I'd like is either a brief application asking you if I
14 can ask the witness five questions or suggesting to the Court that you
15 may want to ask him a question about the document.
16 I'm afraid that this witness is in a unique position to address
17 something about this document based on an answer he gave Thursday, when
18 Mr. Bakrac asked him at page 24856, line 21, and for those who don't have
19 the updated it was page 60, line 7 on Thursday.
20 Mr. Bakrac said: "So in March you had documentation pertaining
21 to all the actions all the way until the end of June, right, is that what
22 you're trying to tell us?"
23 The answer was: "I want to tell you that I knew about an action
24 which was of a broader spectre, three larger actions pertaining to Malo
25 Kosovo, Drenica, and another action that I can't remember just now. This
1 activity was carried out by the Pristina Corps. They prepared the
2 documentation. I read that documentation."
3 There's another exhibit 6D716. Which was on the notification I
4 received for the 65 ter notification for the witness Adamovic, the next
5 witness to come. I think Friday we asked to get the English translation,
6 because in e-court it was listed as denied for us, not through any fault
7 of the Defence, but apparently there was some glitch, and we were only
8 able to receive it this morning. It is a document dated the 19th of
9 February, 1999, entitled: "MUP staff," unsigned, just listed as the
10 commander, but it is an order to break up and destroy forces of the STS
11 in the sector of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo with specific tasks
12 for specific MUP units.
13 I think this might be the document that this witness said: "I
14 read this documentation." I would either like to ask him that question
15 or ask the Court to show him that document and ask him: Is that the
16 document you read? That's my application, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Why was it you didn't raise P2808 in your
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I didn't think that was what he had
20 seen, because I read 2808 as mostly talking about tasks for VJ units, and
21 I -- I didn't do a very good job of analysing that. I didn't ask him
22 about that. I did get the translation of this this morning, but I didn't
23 make the connection to what he said about having read that documentation
24 until this discussion took place.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: I maybe misunderstood what you're saying here.
1 You're not asking for an opportunity to ask more questions about P2808?
2 MR. HANNIS: No. I think he's been answering questions about
3 that. I just want to ask him about 6D716.
4 MR. IVETIC: If I can give some assistance on 6D716.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 MR. IVETIC: I note now, pulling this up, I'm surprised to hear
7 Mr. Hannis mention it was entitled "the MUP staff." And pulling up the
8 English translation, it appears that that's what the English translation
9 says. It says the Serbian however, says "komanda MUPa," which I think
10 even for those who don't speak Serbian is the "command of the MUP" or
11 "the MUP command." So I think that should be clear, if, indeed, that is
12 an issue.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you object in the circumstances to Mr. Hannis
14 having an opportunity to ask about 6D716?
15 MR. IVETIC: It's going to open up a whole new area of
16 questioning for me.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we interrupt your examination for that
18 purpose. Do you object to that?
19 MR. IVETIC: No. I mean, I don't know what grounds I would have
20 to object, apart from the fact that he's already had an opportunity to do
21 so and he did have that exhibit. That was one of the exhibits that was
22 on the amended notification for cross-examination. So they had the
23 exhibit, they had the witness, and they didn't ask questions about it.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he is saying that he couldn't open that, and
25 it was intimated in relation to the next witness.
1 MR. IVETIC: And that he was able to open it this morning with
2 the translation, so they've had time. I mean, I --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bakrac, do you oppose Mr. Hannis having the
4 opportunity to ask about 6D716?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do not, Your Honour, given that it
6 is a MUP document.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: In light of what's developed here, I shall ask the
10 witness about 6D716. So he may now return to the court, and while he's
11 returning put 6D716 on the screen, please.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Zivaljevic, on Thursday, when you were being
15 questioned by Mr. Bakrac, the issue arose of the documentation available
16 to you in March, and he asked you whether you had documentation
17 pertaining to all the actions all the way until the end of June.
18 Your answer was that you knew about an action that was of a
19 broader nature, three larger actions, pertaining to Malo Kosovo, Drenica,
20 and another action that you said you couldn't remember.
21 Now, I want you to look at the document which is in front of you
22 on the screen now, and tell me if that is in any way connected with that
23 answer that you gave on Thursday.
24 A. In this order, this is a document I cannot -- the header says
25 "MUP command," and it is an order to break-up and destroy forces of
1 Albanian terrorists in the sector of Malo Kosovo, Drenica, and Malisevo.
2 I recognise the parts referred to. Malo Kosovo is north of Kosovo, and
3 then Drenica and Malisevo. But I'm confused by the heading saying "MUP
4 command." I am not familiar with that.
5 The Malo Kosovo action, when I came, that is something I took
6 part in as well. I worked in accordance with the map excerpt that I
7 received via the courier, and the commander of the combat group who
8 awaited me there met me to explain to me the task itself. Following the
9 order he had, I implemented the task.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you now look, please, at paragraph 5.1,
11 which is on page 4 of the English. Do you recognise that task?
12 A. Yes, I can recognise it. The 22nd Detachment of the PJP, this
13 being the detachment I commanded, from the area of deployment to be
14 brought to the line next to villages Donja Repa, Prepolac, and Donja
15 Lapastica. I recognise the villages mentioned in this task. I also
16 recognise BG 211, the combat group. It says, a pincer attack or
17 enveloping attack should be executed along the axis, so on and so forth.
18 I recognise that detail, as well as the villages referred to.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you remember in what form you received your
20 instructions to undertake that task?
21 A. I received the map excerpt on which the axes of units were
22 marked. Mr. Gergar explained, based on the document when I arrived
23 there, all of the axes of movement and the way the task was to be
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you said on Thursday that you knew about
1 three larger actions and that you read the documentation, can I take it
2 from your answers it wasn't this particular document which is on the
3 screen at the moment?
4 A. I recognised the actions, but I did not recognise the detail I
5 referred to from the header of the document, at the very beginning of the
6 document. I'm not familiar with that. However, as for the text, I do
7 recognise that these were the actions I had in mind.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, do you want to prompt me to ask
9 anything else?
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, only perhaps to inquire when he said he
11 read the documentation, whether he was referring only to maps or did he
12 read something additional, if not this document some other document.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you help us with that, Mr. Zivaljevic?
14 A. Definitely so. I received the map excerpt. The document that
15 the commander of the combat group had had a body of text describing the
17 JUDGE BONOMY: That doesn't quite answer the question. In
18 addition to the map, did you actually receive a document with a body of
19 text on it?
20 A. As far as I recall, when I arrived in Podujevo, I received a
21 written notification on where the meeting was to be held with the
22 military commander, this being Mr. Mihajlo Gergar and the combat group
23 211. He organized the briefing at which he explained the task with the
24 details as set out in this document. Now that you have shown me this
25 document, I can tell you that I agree with this part concerning the
1 engagement of forces in item 5, and I recognise all the details.
2 However, I do not recognise the header of the document; that is a
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 Now, Mr. Bakrac, does that raise any issues for you?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
8 Mr. Ivetic.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. You've already asked the
11 witness my first question relating to this document.
12 First of all, I'd like to have the usher's assistance. Maybe
13 this will short-circuit the cross-examination. I'd like to show the
14 witness a copy of P2808 and 6D716 side by side. I have hard copies of
15 those two exhibits. Maybe if we can put one on the ELMO, except that
16 they're in Serbian. Well, that way we can have one on e-court and one on
17 the ELMO for the rest of the persons in the courtroom following.
18 Q. My question is going to be very simple, sir, for the first
19 question at least. The Prosecution has shown you this Exhibit 6D716
20 purportedly from the MUP command. If we can have you compare the first
21 page of this exhibit with P2808, the order from the Pristina Corps, and
22 if I could just have you make any comment on whether, in fact, the
23 introductory text for these two exhibits --
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. Objection,
25 Your Honour. We can compare the documents ourselves. The issue at hand
1 is whether the witness ever saw this document and what it is that he can
2 tell us about it. He's not an expert to compare. We can do that for
3 ourselves. We have both the documents in the system.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: There seems to be force in that, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Well, the point being, though, that in Serbian it
6 may be true; but in English, when translations of two documents are done
7 by two different translators, sometimes there are slight nuances in it.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a matter that should be submitted
9 again to CLSS; and if you wish us to do that, we'll do it now. You're
10 concerned about the heading in 6D716?
11 MR. IVETIC: Aside from that, I'm talking about the text of the
12 first page itself. It's our submission that the text is identical to
13 both the Pristina Corps command and this other document.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we will note the submission --
15 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: -- and take it into account in due course. Please
17 proceed with questions --
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you then --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: -- that the witness can assist us with from his
20 personal knowledge.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. You mentioned, sir, that you were unfamiliar with the title of
23 this document, 6D716, which I hope you have in front of you. Did, in
24 fact, any formation or entity ever entitled the MUP command exist --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: He doesn't have it in front of him at the moment,
1 because we're relying on the screen and it's a different document that's
2 on the screen.
3 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. He has a hard copy. It should be
4 6D716 on the screen for purposes of --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. I didn't realize he had the hard copy
6 there. Sorry.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Did, in fact, any entity or formation entitled the MUP command
9 exist within the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
10 1999 or any time?
11 You can answer the question, sir.
12 A. I don't know that such a command existed, and I never saw such a
13 heading as this one. I'm a bit confused.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. IVETIC: If I can ask for P1613 to be called up, the only
16 other document I know of that has the title MUP command, that's dated the
17 27th of August, 1999, for an action in Dobrodeljane. Can we have both.
18 There we go. We have both the English and the Serb up.
19 Q. We see this is an order dated the 27th of August, 1998 [sic], for
20 an action in Dobrodeljane, labelled military secret. If we can look at
21 the last page of the document, we see a stamp and signature that I think
22 speaks for itself.
23 My question relates to item number 7 on this page. With respect
24 to item number 7, we see that the command is supposed to be operated from
25 the IKM in the region of Djakovica sector through brigade commanders.
1 Did you ever hear of any such organ within the MUP of the Republic of
3 A. I never heard of it.
4 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on, then. You were shown --
5 JUDGE BONOMY: On just a more broader basis, have you never heard
6 reference in any context, either army or police, to a forward command
7 post in Djakovica?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have never heard of it.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: If we can move on.
12 Q. You were shown a document by Mr. Bakrac, 5D1418, a telegram that
13 you sent to the MUP staff and a response telegram received.
14 MR. IVETIC: If we could look at the first page of the same, I
15 think it's the first page, I'll see in a second. I guess it's the second
16 page of the exhibit, Your Honours, I apologise.
17 Q. This second page of the exhibit which is the telegram back to
18 you, does this document specify what particular person or individual at
19 the MUP staff would have signed this telegram and sent it back to you?
20 A. Could you please repeat your question.
21 Q. Does -- does this document, this telegram, evident who signed or
22 prepared this telegram on behalf of the MUP staff and sent it to you? Is
23 there an author identified in this document, an individual author?
24 A. I don't recognise anyone from this document.
25 Q. Thank you. One final question, I believe. Do you know of any
1 other person being named in 1997 to replace Obrad Stevanovic as commander
2 of all PJP units, yes or no?
3 A. I'm not familiar with that.
4 Q. Thank you for your testimony.
5 MR. IVETIC: I have no questions for the witness, Your Honour;
6 although, I do have a request. In reviewing the transcript during the
7 break, we believe that there was an issue on -- that the transcript
8 didn't reflect everything that was said at paragraph -- pardon me, page
9 13, line 23, through page 14, line 6.
10 I suggest that the audio track be reviewed, and that's probably
11 the easiest way to deal with that issue, since it was a lengthy response.
12 I think that would -- I would request that that be undertaken. Thank
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: We agree that that answer relates to a matter of
16 some importance, and we shall, therefore, ask CLSS to review the B/C/S
17 tape and to provide us with a formal translation of page 13, line 23 to
18 page 14, line 6 of today's transcript.
19 Mr. Zivaljevic, that completes your evidence here. Thank you for
20 coming to The Hague
21 with the usher.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 MR. IVETIC: Our next witness, Your Honour, is Mr. Adamovic, who
24 is being handled by my colleague, Mr. Lukic.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
5 speak the truth by reading aloud the document which will now be shown to
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: You will now be examined by Mr. Lukic.
12 Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll need help from the
14 usher, please.
15 WITNESS: DUSKO ADAMOVIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Could you please be so kind as to open that binder, the one
21 that's in front of you. On the top, there is a statement. Could you
22 please take a look at it. Are those your signatures on this statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that the statement that you gave to the Defence of Mr. Sreten
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Today, if you were to be asked the same questions, would you give
3 the same answers that you gave when we took this statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Adamovic. Those are all the questions that we
6 have for the time being; our Defence, that is.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just kindly ask the Trial Chamber
8 to have Mr. Adamovic's statement admitted into evidence as 6D1613.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
10 Mr. Fila.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic. Actually, I have
13 one single, very brief question for you.
14 Do you remember the meeting that was held at the MUP staff on the
15 22nd of July, 1998, where you attended?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'd like to ask you the following: At that meeting, let me jog
20 your memory. You remember the participants, Sreten Lukic and so on. I
21 don't want to show you the document because we've shown it hundreds of
22 times. It is P -- 6D798, the meeting at the MUP staff on the 22nd of
23 July, 1998. It was displayed several times.
24 Anyway, do you remember, at that meeting, did General Obrad or
25 General Rodja mention the establishment of some kind of a Joint Command
1 headed by a civilian? Was there any reference to that kind of thing?
2 A. I remember no such thing.
3 Q. Thank you. That's all I had.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. My name is John Ackerman, and I represent General Pavkovic in
11 these proceedings. I have a few questions I want to ask you. I
12 understand from your statement that you left Kosovo on the 29th of March,
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. That was like the fourth day after the bombing started, or the
16 fifth day?
17 A. The fifth day probably.
18 Q. And I understand that was because you were wounded, is that -- am
19 I right about that?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Now, you will recall - and I assume you have your statement there
22 in front of you - but you recall, in your statement, you talk at length
23 about the proposition that neither the MUP staff nor any MUP units were
24 involved in planning anti-terrorist activities, that the planning was
25 done by the Pristina Corps. That's your position, is it not?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And I take it your knowledge about that extends through the 29th,
3 when you left, and not after; fair statement, isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I want to imagine with you a hypothetical situation so we don't
6 get bogged down or try not to get bogged down. I think your position is
7 that MUP units would be provided with maps that were created by the VJ;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So a PJP unit, for instance, provided with a map that shows the
11 ground upon which an action is going to take place and the location of
12 various units involved in that, who provided the orders to the PJP for
13 exactly what it was that they were to do?
14 A. No special orders were issued; only excerpts from maps were
15 provided that had been drawn up by the Pristina Corps.
16 Q. Now, I understand you are a -- you have attended the military
17 academy, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you know how the system of command and orders and things of
20 that nature work in the military because of that training, don't you?
21 A. Well, it can be put that way, generally speaking, that I do know
22 but at a lower level, because I was trained at a lower level as far as
23 the military is concerned.
24 Q. That's kind of where we're going anyhow, so that's perfect.
25 Would you agree with me that the hierarchy in the order process for
1 carrying out an action in the military is kind of like this: That there
2 is an order that is drafted by the commander of the corps, in this case
3 we're talking about the Pristina Corps; then that order goes down to the
4 brigades and the command of the brigade then draws an order which he
5 sends out to his battle groups that are going to be involved in carrying
6 out that action; and then the battle group commander drafts an order
7 which he sends out to the battle group commanders that are going to be
8 involved in that; and, finally, there is a map of that more detailed
9 order along with a coded map. That's the process of putting together an
10 operation, isn't it?
11 A. That is probably the case as far as the army is concerned.
12 Q. And no unit commander in the army, or I suggest to you in the MUP
13 either or the PJP, would even think about carrying out an action of the
14 complexity of the kind of actions we're talking about here just based on
15 a map that somebody drew, would it? You just can't do it based on a map,
16 can you?
17 A. Well, I know what I did; that is to say, that I received from the
18 Pristina Corps excerpts of maps and such excerpts were sent to
19 commanders. I assume that, in the field, they did encounter military
20 commanders where they would discuss in greater detail the tasks that
21 awaited them.
22 Q. Well, isn't it the case that the commanders of the MUP units
23 would actually draft the orders necessary to carry out these operations?
24 It couldn't have been done any other way, could it?
25 A. Well, I cannot claim what it was that they did out in the field
1 because I was in the staff in Pristina, and I did not go out into the
2 field; that is to say, as I've already said, they received excerpts from
3 orders. What they did with their subordinate officers, I don't know.
4 Q. Did you see these maps that you claim were provided by the
5 Pristina Corps, these excerpts?
6 A. Yes, yes. I did see them since I went to the Pristina Corps, and
7 I took these excerpts and I submitted them to commanders.
8 Q. Did you see any of those maps in preparation for your testimony
10 A. I did, some.
11 Q. I'm going to have you look at a map and ask you if this is maybe
12 one of those ones you saw.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: 6D01619, please.
14 Q. I'm not at all interested in the action that this deals with.
15 I'm just interested in whether this is the kind of map you're talking
16 about. It is, isn't it?
17 A. Well, they were like this, for the most part.
18 Q. I think it -- I don't read Serbian all that well, but why don't
19 you read for us that little block down there in the lower left-hand
20 corner, and we'll get it translated. It starts with "odluka." I kind of
21 know what that means. Just read it out loud so the translators can
22 translate it for us, please.
23 A. "Decision of the commander for destroying DTS in the area of
24 Kosmac, excerpt for" and I assume that this is "company of the PJP." If
25 I can see this right, it seems to be "Prizren, coded map Drim." That's
1 what it says here.
2 Q. After "izvod za" there, those characters are written there in
3 Cyrillic, and I think it's the name of MUP detachment, isn't it?
4 A. Well, obviously, it's not a detachment; it's one company on this
6 Q. That's fine. Then underneath that --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Just on moment, Mr. Ackerman.
8 Mr. Lukic, has this been submitted for translation?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think, as a matter of fact, they
10 have withdrawn this from their 65 ter request, but it's still sitting in
11 e-court and I wanted to ask the witness about it. So it may be admitted
12 as an --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you will have to submit it for translation,
14 if you wish to rely on it, Mr. Ackerman.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll be happy to do that. That's not a problem.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well.
17 MR. ACKERMAN:
18 Q. Right underneath, then, the last line, read that last line for
19 us, then, will you?
20 A. "Coded map, Drim."
21 Q. All right. Now, this is a map that's known in military circles
22 as a code map, isn't it?
23 A. As far as I see, that's what's written here.
24 Q. Well, even if it wasn't written there, I suggest you would know
25 that because it has all these little circles on it with numbers in them.
1 Do you see all those little circles with numbers all over that map?
2 A. Yes, I see that.
3 Q. And those little circles with numbers are code numbers, so that
4 when unit a reporting by radio from the field its location, it can report
5 its location in relation to one of those numbers without disclosing to
6 the enemy exactly where they are. That's all that's all about, isn't it?
7 A. Obviously, one can see that these code numbers are there for
8 units to communicate, those that are in action, to find their way in the
9 area, to communicate amongst themselves, and to report to one another on
10 the problems, rather, that they may encounter.
11 Q. Now, well, I'm not going to ask you that question. I've changed
12 my mind.
13 Well, let me ask you this: Did you ever see any actual written
14 orders crafted by the Pristina Corps directing any MUP units as to what
15 they were supposed to do, an actual written order for a MUP unit, or did
16 you just see the maps?
17 A. During the preparations here, I did see some orders, certain
19 Q. And those were orders that would be orders for a unit of the MUP
20 to carry out that had been drafted, in your view, by the VJ, the Pristina
21 Corps, or somebody?
22 A. Yes. At least in terms of what I saw, orders were made by the
23 Pristina Corps only.
24 Q. All right. Now, in as much as the MUP was never actually
25 resubordinated to the VJ, I take it somebody in MUP was responsible for
1 approving these orders that were drafted by the VJ. Somebody had to say,
2 "Yes, I agree. I order this PJP unit to carry out this task." Somebody
3 had to approve that since they were not obligated to carry out any VJ
4 orders unless it was approved by somebody at command level in MUP. Isn't
5 that true?
6 A. Well, it cannot be said that there was approval by the MUP
7 because I was in contact with the representatives of the Pristina Corps.
8 I took these excerpts from maps, and I would submit them to officers in
9 the field. So there was no special approval in the MUP staff.
10 Q. Well, if you are submitting those maps to commanders in the
11 field, it must be you that is approving those orders and telling them to
12 carry them out. Actually, you're ordering that they be carried out by
13 giving those maps, didn't you? Even if you don't say the word "order,"
14 that's what you were doing. If you didn't think they ought to be doing
15 it, you wouldn't give them the map, right?
16 A. Well, it cannot be put that way, that I was issuing orders,
17 because, indeed, I was not issuing orders. So the basis for police
18 action was the plan that had been adopted for carrying out anti-terrorist
20 Q. Well, if I'm a commander of a PJP unit and you hand me a map like
21 this, who is it that's ordering me to carry out the instructions that
22 might be contained on that map? I mean, how am I supposed to know what
23 to do if somebody isn't telling me, "You are ordered by this organization
24 to carry out this activity"? It just can't happen any other way, can it?
25 A. Well, previously, I don't remember the exact date, but before
1 actions would start, meetings would be held at the staff, and then the
2 plan would be discussed for carrying out anti-terrorist actions; that is
3 to say, the Army of Yugoslavia and the police. That was the basis for
4 further action on the part of all officers who were already out in the
5 field and who had been engaged for that, if I can put it that way.
6 Q. Yeah, well, that starts to make sense. So what you're saying is
7 that these actions would be discussed before in the MUP staff; the MUP
8 staff headed by General Lukic would approve the action; and then when you
9 received the map that basically was permission for you to go ahead and
10 pass it on down to the commander. So it really was a planning process
11 that took place in the MUP staff, wasn't it?
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: I have to object, Your Honour, because the question
14 starts with, "so what you are saying is that," and the witness is not
15 saying this.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman, in your own interests, this needs
17 either to be broken down or left for the words of the witness to some
18 extent. It's not clear --
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: -- who would be involved in these discussions, for
22 MR. ACKERMAN: You're very right about that, but he certainly
23 said that meetings would be held at the staff --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: -- and the plan would be discussed for carrying
1 out anti-terrorist actions. So at least Mr. Lukic's objection is not
2 well-founded, I don't think, in that regard, but I will ask it in a
3 little bit different way.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 MR. ACKERMAN:
6 Q. These meetings at the MUP staff, who would be in attendance at
7 these meetings where you would discuss these actions?
8 A. These meetings were usually attended by commanders of detachments
9 and chiefs of secretariats; most often, that is. I'm speaking in general
10 terms about meetings that were held at the staff.
11 Q. And, of course, members of the staff would be there?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And why would you have these meetings? What did you talk about?
14 A. Well, it depends on the period that we're talking about. If
15 we're talking about the period before the anti-terrorist actions started,
16 there were -- well, I cannot tell you exactly whether there was one or
17 two meetings --
18 Q. Well, I want to talk about the period where you say that orders
19 and maps and things of that nature are being prepared by the Pristina
20 Corps and passed along to you, and that you are handing maps to
21 commanders. You just told us there were meetings where these things were
22 discussed. You told us who was at the meetings. I want to know what you
23 talked about. What did you talk about at those meetings?
24 A. Well, meetings were not held for carrying out each and every
25 anti-terrorist action. Meetings were held only at the beginning. If
1 we're talking about the implementation of actions and a plan, before an
2 action would start, there would be a meeting that would be attended by
3 officers from the Pristina Corps. At that meeting, all the attendees
4 would be familiarized with the plan for carrying out anti-terrorist
5 actions and -- now, whether all of that happened on the same day or
6 within one or two days. There would be a meeting with the commanders of
7 the detachments and the chiefs of the SUPs where the assistant ministers,
8 generals - that is to say, General Djordjevic and General Obrad
9 Stevanovic - told the officers about the tasks that were to follow.
10 Q. How many of those meetings do you think there were while you were
11 there? Let's just take that little bit of time between the 22nd and the
12 29th, that week, how many meetings were there that week that you
14 A. It is difficult for me to tell you how many. I know there was a
15 meeting with representatives of the Pristina Corps, whether it was at
16 that meeting or a day later. In any case, there was a meeting at which
17 the generals acquainted the officers with the plan to carry out
18 anti-terrorist actions. As far as I remember, in those few days, even
19 the minister may have been there, once the actions commenced, of course.
20 A lot of time has passed, and it is difficult for me to recall
21 everything, especially the dates.
22 Q. All right. We'll go back now to where we started this. You are
23 a -- at the time, you were an officer in the MUP. You had subordinates
24 under you, you had superiors above you, you had come up through a chain
25 obviously, and you certainly wouldn't do anything unless you had gotten
1 approval to do it from your superiors in.
2 Some form. Now, from whom did you get approval to pass these
3 maps to the units that were supposed to carry out an action? Who gave
4 you approval to do that?
5 A. Separate approvals were not needed. I was in contact with
6 representatives of the Pristina Corps. I would take the map excerpts and
7 distribute them to the officers in the field.
8 Q. Who approved you doing that? Blanket approval, specific
9 approval, I don't care which, what made it okay with your superiors for
10 you to pass those maps along to your units? Who approved you doing that?
11 I don't think that's a difficult question. Somebody told you it was okay
12 for you to do that. Who was it?
13 A. To repeat yet again, special approval could not come from just
14 anyone. I was appointed on behalf of the staff before the actions
15 commenced to contact the Pristina Corps and to distribute it further on
16 in the field what I get from them. Of course, the leader or the head of
17 the staff knew about those actions being planned.
18 Q. And you were appointed by who to do that?
19 A. I think it was the leader of the staff who appointed me on behalf
20 of the staff to have contacts with the Pristina Corps.
21 Q. The leader of the staff was General Lukic; is that who we're
22 talking about?
23 A. As far as I recall, he told me that.
24 Q. All right. Now, I take it, if you're standing there - I just
25 want to picture you standing there - you've been handed a map. Who
1 handed it to you? Where did you get it from? Who brought it to you?
2 A. I was in contact, for the most part, with Colonel Djakovic.
3 Q. Now --
4 A. He was the officer with whom I had most frequent contacts.
5 Q. When you would get this map then, it's been handed to you, I
6 guess you would look at it, and I guess that you would make some
7 determinations about it like what units you should pass it to, like
8 whether or not the things depicted on it were possible for your units to
9 carry out. I assume you would make some kind of judgements about it like
10 that, for no other reason just for the protection of your own forces. Am
11 I right?
12 A. As far as I'm concerned, I made no decisions regarding that
13 issue. I was a member of the staff who would go to the Pristina Corps
14 and forward information on the units in the area or in the territory.
15 The Pristina Corps knew of that. I didn't go into any analysis of the
16 maps and excerpts. There was no need for me to do so. I was not
17 authorised to do that.
18 Q. So you were just basically a post office box. They would come
19 stick the map in you, and somebody would come fish it out of you and walk
20 away with it. You had absolutely no authority at all; is that what
21 you're saying?
22 A. Well, I'm not saying it quite that way. I'm merely telling you
23 what I was doing. I explained how I established contacts and what it was
24 that I told Colonel Djakovic. The outlines of the maps would most
25 frequently be done before my arrival.
1 Q. What was your rank at this point? Were you a colonel or what
2 were you?
3 A. I was lieutenant-colonel.
4 Q. Why didn't they just have a sergeant or somebody doing that?
5 This wasn't something that required a high-paid, high-level officer since
6 you had no -- you didn't even bother to look at the maps, right?
7 A. I really don't know why it was me who did that. It is obvious
8 that people at lower levels could have performed the same duty that I did
9 when it comes to these tasks.
10 Q. So a courier, instead of bringing the map to you or General
11 Djakovic, instead of bringing it to you, could have just sent it off to
12 those units and skip you completely, but you were getting paid the big
13 bucks as lieutenant-colonel. I don't understand what you were doing
14 there, do you?
15 A. When it comes to implementing the tasks, my role was an auxiliary
16 one. I was on the sidelines.
17 Q. Well, did you know anything about the status of the field? When
18 I say that, did you know, for instance, in a particular village how many
19 KLA troops were believed to be stationed there? Did you know things like
21 A. No, not even those things. I wasn't included and I didn't know
23 Q. Well, who would look at these maps and say, "Well, let's see,
24 that PJP unit is being asked to attack a particular area, and there are a
25 hundred of them and there are a thousand KLA there, that's ridiculous"?
1 Who would look at a map and make a determination like that? Who from the
2 MUP staff would make those kind of determinations before they would send
3 their troops into a situation where they could all be killed, for
4 instance? Didn't somebody exercise some kind of authority over this
6 A. As far as I know, no one made such assessments in the staff. It
7 is obvious that the Pristina Corps had information on the forces in the
8 area. I suppose, based on that information, they made maps; and the Army
9 of Yugoslavia
10 Q. Well, let's just get really practical about this. You say that
11 you were handed a map without doing anything beyond having kind of a
12 general authority to hand it over. You gave it to a unit, and let's just
13 say, for instance, that that unit was completely wiped out, killed by
14 KLA, the whole unit, because they were attacking a vastly superior force.
15 Who in the MUP is responsible for that? Who takes the hit for that,
16 because somebody's going to be in trouble for sending that unit against
17 such a vast force. Who is that going to be? Who in the MUP chain of
18 command gets in trouble for that? You?
19 A. Well, obviously, it would be the minister or the sector chief
20 since they deployed the forces in the field. To repeat again, the staff
21 did not participate in the planning and execution of anti-terrorist
22 actions. It was done by the Pristina Corps.
23 Q. I just don't understand why the minister of the interior would
24 send a whole bunch of high-ranking police officers and create an
25 organization in Kosovo called the MUP staff and then not give them any
1 authority to do anything. How does that make any sense? It just seems
2 like a huge waste of people and money and everything else. I mean, did
3 somebody just tell you that you needed to come here and say those things,
4 or was that the way it really was?
5 A. The real situation was the way I'm describing it. At the MUP
6 staff, we had very few officers. In order to deal with such issues in a
7 more serious manner, there should have been many more officers who would
8 participate in these activities.
9 Q. Well, I suggest to you that Kosovo with bombs falling on it is
10 not a very good place to go for a rest, is it?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. I want to refer you to paragraph 31 of your statement. First of
13 all, you begin with the language: "During my stay at the staff," which
14 we've already established was about five days. You say that: "During my
15 stay at the staff, the Pristina Corps planned all big operations."
17 A. All actions that included both the army and the police were
18 planned by the Pristina Corps.
19 Q. Well, the words you used, I think in your statement, are "big
20 operations," right? That's what I asked you. Is that correct?
21 A. It is correct that I use the word "bigger" actions. What I had
22 in mind were the actions in which the army and police participated.
23 Q. And the other side of that, I guess, is that the MUP planned
24 smaller actions, right?
25 A. Well, the MUP planned smaller actions if there was a need to do
1 so. While the anti-terrorist actions were being executed, the plans were
2 being made by the Pristina Corps. These were priorities, and those
3 actions were the ones to be implemented.
4 Q. Now, you said that only once now, but that's not my question. My
5 question was: When you say that the big actions were planned by the
6 Pristina Corps, the other side of that is the smaller operations must
7 have been planned by the MUP. And that's just follows, doesn't it? It
8 makes sense, right?
9 A. Yes. It does make sense; however, I'm telling you that while the
10 anti-terrorist planned actions were being under way, including both the
11 army and the police, they were focused on. If there were smaller
12 anti-terrorist actions, if there is something happening in the territory
13 of a given secretariat, and if the secretariat with its own forces could
14 see the task through, they did. This doesn't require many members of the
16 Q. I'm going to have you take a look in a minute at P1505. While
17 we're waiting for that to come up, I want to ask you in -- during the
18 time you were in Kosovo and even before that, Vlajko Stojiljkovic was the
19 minister of the interior, was he not?
20 A. Yes. At the time, it was Vlajko Stojiljkovic. Before him, there
21 were other ministers.
22 Q. Yeah. I take it that the minister of the interior has the
23 authority to create an organization like the MUP staff and has the
24 authority to determine what its tasks will be and what its authority will
25 be, doesn't it?
1 A. It should be like that.
2 Q. Well, it actually was like that, wasn't it?
3 A. Well, judging by the documents I saw here, one wouldn't be able
4 to say so.
5 Q. Well, let's look where you may be talking about. The one we're
6 getting ready to look at is P1505.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we look at it after the break?
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Oh, are we there already?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Time flies when you're enjoying yourself,
10 Mr. Ackerman.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: It does, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, we have to have a break at this
13 stage for half an hour. Would you please leave the courtroom with the
14 usher, and we'll see you again at 6.00.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, when we were interrupted by the break, we were
22 looking at an exhibit designated P1505, and I want you to look --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: We'll have to go to the next page in B/C/S.
24 Q. I want you to look at paragraph 2 of that document.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: There we go, perfect.
1 Q. Now, you see paragraph 2 there?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. You're a professional policeman. What does that mean to you? If
4 you had gotten such a document, what would that mean to you to read that?
5 What does it tell you to do?
6 A. I would conclude that I was to go about the tasks set out in the
8 Q. Like planning, organizing, and managing the activities and use of
9 the organizational units of the ministry?
10 A. That's what is stated in the document.
11 Q. That is not only to the those that are attached to you -- sorry.
12 A. However, the reality looked differently.
13 Q. We may get into that. That reply is not only to the units that
14 are attached to your staff but those that have been sent, I guess, from
16 A. That's what it says.
17 Q. And all to do with suppressing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija,
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Then the second paragraph, as near as I can tell, says basically
21 the same thing; to plan, organize, direct, and coordinate the activities
22 of the police units in Kosovo in carrying out complex, big operations,
23 security operations; right?
24 A. That's what it says, too.
25 Q. All right. Look at paragraph 3.
1 A. I see it.
2 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, I have to interrupt at this point.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: In the question, it says "police units." In the
5 document, it says "organizational units," I think, in paragraph 2 of
6 paragraph 2.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: We can't assume that that's organizational units
8 within the police?
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but SUPs, OUPs, and things like that, but not
10 PJP units.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I accept that. I wasn't trying to limit it,
12 Your Honour. It's just a poor choice of words on my part, I guess, but I
13 don't think I need to take it any further.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying, Mr. Lukic, that the PJP is not an
15 organizational unit of the ministry?
16 MR. LUKIC: I'm not an expert, but I think it's not.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's, no doubt, a matter for submission in
18 due course, in light of various rules and other regulations we have to
20 Mr. Ackerman.
21 MR. ACKERMAN:
22 Q. Well, let me ask you, is the minister of the interior superior to
23 the PJP?
24 A. The minister of internal affairs is superior to all members of
25 the Ministry of the Interior.
1 Q. Okay. Now, we were looking at paragraph 3, and I think that
2 you've read that. What does that mean to you?
3 A. Well, it says that the head of the staff is answerable for the
4 work of the staff on the security situation to the minister; and, of
5 course, he's supposed to inform him on all security-related events.
6 Q. All right. Now, the absolute number one person in charge of the
7 police - and when I say "police," I mean all organizations of the
8 Ministry of the Interior - the person absolutely number one in charge of
9 all those organizations is the person who signed this document, Vlajko
10 Stojiljkovic. That's true, isn't it?
11 A. Well, the minister heads the ministry.
12 Q. Why would he -- why would he order these kinds of things that are
13 contained in paragraph 2 and 3? Why would he sign a document with those
14 two paragraphs in it if he didn't mean it? Was it just some kind of a
15 game he was playing? Was he just kidding or do you know?
16 A. It is difficult for me to comment what the minister had in mind.
17 If we have a look at this, and if we compared that with the practice, it
18 is obvious that these tasks are not good. Whether he was aware of it at
19 the time or not, whether he knew what and how things would develop in
20 Kosovo, I don't know. I really cannot comment on what the minister had
21 in mind.
22 Q. Well, I wasn't there, and so there's a lot of things I don't
23 know; and you were there, and there's probably a lot of things you do
24 know. Was there kind of a general sense that the minister was not
25 competent and not able to do his job properly? Was that kind of what
1 everybody was feeling about Stojiljkovic at that point and just kind of
2 laughing at the stuff he was doing?
3 A. One couldn't say so, particularly since I never saw this
4 document. I wasn't familiar with what is stated therein. However, it is
5 clear that it does not correspond to the situation in the field, the
6 facts that were in existence in the field and how things were being done.
7 Q. Do I understand that you think it's important to say that the
8 document doesn't correspond to what was going on in the field, and you've
9 now said it three times and you probably don't need to say it again, and
10 maybe what you can do is concentrate on the questions I ask you.
11 So, as far as you know, the minister was competent and able to do
12 his job during this period of time; correct?
13 A. It should be correct. We know who he was appointed by. I cannot
14 go into analysing the minister and his orders.
15 Q. Well, I take it, if you had been the head of this staff that this
16 decision is directed to, that you would have taken those two paragraphs
17 seriously and would have treated them seriously, and attempted the best
18 way you could, as a professional officer, to carry out the tasks set out
19 there, wouldn't you?
20 A. Well, it can be put that way; however, this document, now when it
21 was written, was it the minister's idea to really have the staff do this,
22 as written here? I really don't know that. But, obviously, in terms of
23 what was happening in the field, as the situation grew more complex, as
24 there was larger-scale terrorism, quite simply it was impossible for the
25 staff to do all of this with the number of people that were there on the
1 staff; that is to say, that this requires a large number of people to be
2 involved in all of this, professional, well-trained, so that this could
3 function and that this work could be done.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: You said a moment ago that we know who he was
5 appointed by, referring to Stojiljkovic. Who was he appointed by?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that goes into the sphere of
7 politics. I think he was appointed by the Assembly.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: No. What do you mean by: "We all know who he was
9 appointed by," please?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we're talking about the
11 minister, as a reference was made to the minister, his qualities, and so
12 on. I'm saying that the police does not decide who the minister is going
13 to be. When Mr. Vlajko was in that position, not before that, not after
14 that, it is only natural that the police has its own impressions about
15 the minister, if I can put it that way; but we have no say, no one asks
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Just out of the blue, you made this statement:
18 "We know who he was appointed by ..."
19 Now, I would like you to give me a frank answer as to what that
20 refers to and who it refers to.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not that I had any
22 special intentions when I said that. The questions persisted on the
23 minister's qualities, whether he is capable of doing the job and so on
24 and so forth. So then I said that we from the police quite simply do not
25 take part in such matters.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Bearing that in mind that there was some
2 dissatisfaction according to you with his performance, you seem to be
3 pointing in the direction of an appointment by somebody that might
4 explain that. So who was the somebody?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't mean anyone
6 specifically, anyone in particular. I'm saying that this belongs to the
7 sphere of politics. As a professional, I tried to stay away from
8 politics, as far away as possible. That's why I put it that way. When
9 the office is set up, too, when the -- or rather, when a cabinet is being
10 proposed by a prime minister designate, whatever, I don't even know how
11 that goes. I try to be a professional and to leave politics aside.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You appear to be doing precisely the opposite by
13 yourself introducing this reference which was not called for by anyone.
14 So I ask you again: Who were you referring to?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really did not mean anyone
16 specifically. How consultations develop in the sphere of politics, I
17 really don't know. It is possible that I misspoke, if I can put it that
18 way, but the essence is what I've been saying so far.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN:
21 Q. I wonder - again, you know, I wasn't there and you were so you
22 know a lot more about this - I wonder if there was some kind of a culture
23 that had grown up in the police ranks that basically called for ignoring
24 anything that police ministers did, ministers of the interior did, that
25 they could simply be ignored and you could just go about doing things the
1 way you wanted to? Is that what happened, they just become figureheads
2 with no power?
3 A. Well, you cannot say that the police ever ignored orders they
4 received from their leadership. The police acted in accordance with the
5 law and the powers they had. When speaking of this particular matter,
6 anti-terrorist actions, for us it was the decision of the state organs
7 that was of significance; namely, that the police had to carry out
8 certain tasks regardless of whether somebody liked that or not. That is
9 the price to be paid by this professional.
10 Q. I want to go talk about something else now because we've kind of
11 taken up too much time, I think. You're familiar with groups called
12 RPOs, reserve police branches or stations, aren't you?
13 A. Yes. I heard of reserve police branches or stations, "odelenja."
14 Q. Well, they existed during the time that you were active in
15 Kosovo, did they not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you know that they were organized and armed by the police?
18 A. Not only by the police, they were armed by the army and police as
19 far as I know; although, I was not involved with reserve police branches
20 or stations.
21 Q. Who's Ljubinko Cvetic?
22 A. Ljubinko Cvetic, at that time, he was chief of the secretariat in
23 Kosovska Mitrovica.
24 Q. I didn't want to do this, but I'm going to have to have you look
25 at P1114. And I'll just tell you, without having to go to the last page,
1 that this is a document from Ljubinko Cvetic.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: And if we can just go to page -- just as an
3 example go to page 2.
4 Q. This is a document that talks about the creation of all of those
5 RPOs in Kosovska Mitrovica secretariat. And if you look about halfway
6 down that page - it's the bottom of the B/C/S that you're looking at - it
7 talks about the numbers of rifles that have been delivered to various RPO
8 members, doesn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, then, if we look at P2804.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: And we need to go I think to the second page in
12 the B/C/S. This is just the cover page we have there. Yeah, it's hard
13 to read though.
14 Q. You should see a paragraph that begins with: "Organize defence
15 of the villages with the newly formed reserve police stations, and with
16 that aim in mind build defence fortifications ..."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. I see that.
19 Q. And that document is signed by General Lukic, is it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then it says, I think: "For each RPO, make a dossier," maybe
22 "containing security assessment of the threat for the RP O, the task of
23 the RPO, a training plan, a defence plan, a communications plan, and
24 ammunition replenishment plan, a control plan." Right?
25 A. That's what's written here.
1 Q. All right. Let's look now at 6D808. This is dated 1 April 1999;
2 and, of course, that's after you left Kosovo, but I'm just going to rely
3 on your knowledge as a police officer, senior police officer, as to the
4 meaning basically. The -- what we see at the top is it was delivered to
5 the secretariats of the interior in all these locations; Pristina, Pec,
6 Djakovica, Prizren, Urosevac, Gnjilane maybe, right, yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, that first paragraph interests me because it talks about the
9 new situation caused by NATO bombardment, and it says: "It's necessary
10 that you submit a daily summary of important incidents and events from
11 0600 hours to 0600 hours to the staff of the ministry of the Republic of
13 hours the next day."
14 The question I have about that -- this is ordered by General
15 Lukic. The question I have about that was: Why? To what purpose?
16 Since the staff had no real control over anything, what difference did it
17 make whether that was sent to them or not? Why would he order that? Why
18 does that make sense?
19 A. Well, even before that probably, and in that period, the staff
20 submitted reports to the Ministry of the Interior about security-related
21 incidents in the territory of Kosovo
22 these reports were all brought together for the entire territory of the
23 province, and they were submitted to the Ministry of the Interior. I
24 think they were also submitted to the secretariats in Kosovo so that they
25 would be aware of what was going on.
1 Q. If you look at subparagraph, there's a list there starting with
2 the number 1 as to what he wants included in this summary. If you look
3 at number 3, he wants information about serious crimes committed. He
4 wants to know the time, the place, the manner, the perpetrator, the
5 victims, the result, the degree of the crime, murder, robbery, theft,
6 looting, and rape, and the measures that were taken.
7 Does that indicate to you that at that point, on the 1st of
8 April, that General Lukic was aware that such crimes were, in fact, being
9 committed and that he wanted a report on them?
10 A. No, no. It does not mean that he knows that crimes were
11 committed. If I can put it this way, these are incidents that are of
12 interest; and if they happened, they should be recorded and this kind of
13 a compiled report should be sent to the ministry, as in the previous two
14 points. So, if there are such crimes, of course, they are going to
15 submit information; and if there are no crimes, then there is no
16 submission of information. At least that is what this document seems to
18 Q. So I guess it was just drafting what he meant to say was if
19 serious crimes were committed, rather than telling about the serious
20 crimes committed, right? That's your analysis of it at least, right?
21 A. Well, naturally, something that is committed is one thing and
22 suspicion that something was committed then you wouldn't write this way.
23 This is information that preceded what happened in Kosovo, if I can put
24 it that way. This belongs to the domain of reporting that is only
25 natural on the part of all secretariats, regardless of the area involved,
1 regardless of whether it's Kosovo or outside Kosovo; that is to say, such
2 information is provided to the ministry. Prosecution is a different
3 matter, but these are incidents in terms of whether they happened or not.
4 Q. All right. So maybe we can say he expected those kinds of things
5 to be happening, so he wanted to know about them when they do; fair?
6 A. Well, I don't think that the wording is right, that it is
7 expected to happen. That is police work. Everything that the police
8 knows and everything that is noteworthy has to go through the system of
9 reporting. Even in these situations, since these are serious crimes,
10 these are rules of action which require urgent reporting on such matters.
11 So that is what the -- what was valid in Kosovo and outside Kosovo.
12 Q. So these things would have been reported to him even if he hadn't
13 issued this document, because just normal police procedure would require
14 that; correct?
15 A. Well, it can be put that way, but I assume that this is yet
16 another reminder of such matters. I don't know how else to interpret
17 this; that is to say that, this is what I see.
18 Q. On two or three occasions now, when I've asked you a question,
19 you have said: "It can be put that way." I'm taking those answers to
20 mean: Yes, that's a way to look at it; you're right. Is that what those
21 answers mean, that I'm correct in that assertion?
22 A. Well, I am presenting one assertion; that is to say, that the
23 members of the Ministry of the Interior always had to act in accordance
24 with the law and bylaws that regulate certain rules of how members of the
25 service should act.
1 Q. They had to follow orders when they received them, didn't they?
2 A. To carry out orders, yes, except for those that constitute a
3 crime. Members of the service cannot and should not carry out such
5 Q. It's not a crime to engage in planning activities, anti-terrorist
6 activities, as Minister Stojiljkovic ordered, is it --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't need to answer that question.
8 Mr. Ackerman, we're going to have to strike some sort of balance
9 in this cross-examination because I understand there are perhaps more
10 extensive than normal requests. So can we --
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, I've gone at least a half-hour longer than
12 I've expected this to take.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: And it's had to do with the length of the answers
15 and the sidetracks that the answers have created. I don't know what to
16 do. I've got about six more documents I would like to discuss with him
17 and some of them will be awfully fast.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. This is an important witness and,
19 therefore, we're happy to trust your judgement, but we're showing signs
20 at the moment of getting bogged down in something that wasn't really
21 advancing our knowledge of matters very much.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: I've done that before, as you've observed, but
23 I'll do my best.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Very rarely.
25 MR. ACKERMAN:
1 Q. All right. Let's go to P1989. This is the minutes of a meeting
2 of senior police officials in Kosovo-Metohija on the 4th of April, 1999
3 like ten days into the war. General Stevanovic is there; Major Lukic is
4 there; the chiefs of all the secretariats are there; the PJP commanders
5 are there, SAJ, RDB, JSO, the whole gang. Right?
6 A. I don't see the RDB -- actually, just a moment, please. Yes,
7 yes, I see it on there underneath the agenda -- no, no, no. Commander of
8 the JSO RDB; not the chief of the RDB.
9 Q. Okay. Let's move over to paragraph 2 in the document.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: It's on page 3 in the English. It's probably
11 close to that in Serbian, too.
12 Q. It's a paragraph entitled: "Forthcoming tasks."
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Whoops. We have the Serbian now on the right-hand
14 side, but we've lost the English. We've got the Serbian on both sides.
15 There we go. Now we got it.
16 Q. These are tasks that are being assigned apparently by General
17 Lukic, head of the staff of the ministry. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, oh, one, two, three, four, five, six, it looks like the
20 seventh bullet point, he says: "Take rigorous measures towards
21 paramilitary units ..."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And, then, if we go to the bottom, right before the Assistant
25 Minister Stevanovic speaks, he again makes it clear that the secretariat
1 chiefs and the unit commanders must report to the MUP staff.
2 Now, I want you to look at the next page, I think it is in B/C/S
3 and English, and we see Obrad Stevanovic, assistant minister, and his
5 In the very last one, it says, to the heads of all these
6 organizations that are working in the field and dealing with terrorists:
7 "Conduct cooperation with the VJ through the commander on the ground and
8 inform the staff of any problems."
9 Now, the way I read that is the process of dealing with
10 cooperation in activities with the army are to be worked out with the
11 ground commander from the VJ and the ground commander from the MUP, just
12 between themselves on the ground, rather than at some higher level; is
13 that what that says? Does that make sense in that context?
14 A. What is written is that cooperation with the army should be
15 carried out through the commanders on the ground -- the commander on the
16 ground. The commander of the army and the commander of the police, that
17 is the reference that is made, that they should cooperate.
18 Q. Let's go quickly to 6D778. It's a one-page document. We should
19 get through it rather quickly. You'll see that this is a document from
20 General Lukic to all the secretariats and some separate police units,
21 detachments 21st to 87th. In it, he speaks about an order that was
22 entered on the 5th of April, to prevent civilians from leaving their
23 places of residence and to ensure their safety and take measures to
24 protect the population.
25 He says it's come to his attention that some people are not
1 obeying that order, as they should have been, and he makes it very clear
2 that that order must be obeyed and that persons who failed to do so would
3 be held accountable.
4 Now, if there is a plan to expel the population from Albania
5 would anybody sign and circulate such an order? It doesn't make sense,
6 does it?
7 A. A plan to expel the Albanian population, as far as I know, did
8 not exist. This pertains to the period during which I was not with the
9 staff. Always, or frequently, at all meetings that were held, both
10 secretariat chiefs, as well as detachment commanders, were told to act
11 lawfully when implementing tasks, in particular to protect civilians in
12 all situations. That is what I know.
13 Q. Okay. Let's move now quickly to 6D874. This one now we're up to
14 the 6th of May. This is another document from General Lukic directed to
15 the chiefs of all the SUPs in Kosovo and Metohija.
16 He says that because of the NATO aggression crimes and other
17 unlawful acts have been committed in a new way in the area of Kosovo and
18 Metohija, properties being unlawfully appropriated, things of that
19 nature. Then, in a few paragraphs down, he says: "In order to disrupt
20 and eliminate all adverse developments in the security situation and
21 to ... prevent the perpetration of the most serious crimes and ... to
22 arrest the perpetrators, particularly ... murders, rapes, and various
23 types of ill-treatment, theft, aggravated theft, arson and ... damage to
24 private property, it's necessary to" do certain things: Collect a bunch
25 of information and establish cooperation with state security and the
1 army, cooperation with public prosecutors ..." --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Ackerman, what's the question?
3 MR. ACKERMAN:
4 Q. The question is: This is the kind of an order to try to get
5 control of and prevent and punish crime that commanders are required to
6 do under the law, isn't it?
7 A. First of all, as you said, this concerned crimes; however, I do
8 not see that in this circular. What I see is that people are being
9 reminded of their obligations in terms of their conduct when it comes to
10 individuals who were committing illegal acts. What is requested is that
11 people act lawfully and that people should be prosecuted if information
12 is acquired that they had participated in the commission of certain
13 crimes, irrespective of whether they were policemen or else.
14 Q. Well, that's exactly my question. My question exactly is that.
15 You know that the law requires a commander to take steps to prevent or
16 punish crime, and that's just what General Lukic is doing here. It's
17 what a commander is supposed to do, right?
18 A. Commander, or rather, not the commander, but the leader or the
19 head of the staff did not have the authority to undertake specific
20 measures against such individuals. If they were criminally liable, we
21 know what should have happened and we know what the police was supposed
22 to do. If there were disciplinary breaches, again it wasn't up to the
23 commander -- excuse me, the head of the staff to do anything.
24 Q. So this is another one of those orders like that first one we
25 looked at from Stojiljkovic, where it really wasn't serious, nobody
1 needed to pay attention to it. Is that what you're saying? He had no
2 power to issue the order, so people would just ignore him; is that your
4 A. I don't fully understand the question.
5 Q. Well, I'm not even going to try to repeat it?
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, the question is very simple. What is the
7 point of this if the person sending it has got no authority to deal
8 with or do anything about the information he gets? We're in a war with
9 little time to spare, if any, and the suggestion is this is a pointless
10 document. So what do you say was the point of this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've said something of the
12 sort already. The role of the staff, among its other roles, was --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Just answer the question. What's the point of
14 this document?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, that the secretariats are
16 reminded of their obligations. I didn't carefully go through the whole
17 document, so as to be able to say exactly what I think of it. If we look
18 into it, it is requested that urgent measures be taken in terms of
19 prosecuting crimes. All perpetrators should be prosecuted in case they
20 violated the authority of the police and the laws pertaining to that
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ackerman.
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. Let's go to another document, 6D773, a very short document. Can
25 you shed any light on what this document is, from who to who, things of
1 that nature?
2 A. One can see from the document that the MUP staff is sending it to
3 the secretariat in Pec and Djakovica.
4 Q. All right. Then it says: "Send the civilians from," what's
5 Djurdjevdan? Do you know what that is?
6 A. I don't, I don't, since I wasn't in Kosovo then.
7 Q. The Djurdjevdan operation, so there must have been some kind of
8 operation, but it says maybe a code-name, you think?
9 A. I don't know. According to this, it was the name of an action.
10 Q. And, so, it is ordering that the civilians from that operation
11 should be sent back to their places of residence and that they should
12 undertake all security measures, right?
13 A. Obviously, one concludes that, after certain actions, civilians
14 moved to safer areas. Once the actions were completed, as we can see,
15 the intention was -- or rather, the tendency was to see the population
16 back to their places of residence, to their homes, and that the police
17 should undertake all security measures. This should mean that it
18 shouldn't be allowed for some irresponsible individuals to be able to do
19 something that would be contrary to the law and to the rules of conduct
20 in any situation.
21 Q. Well --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine, please.
23 MR. ACKERMAN:
24 Q. On whose authority would this have been sent? Who had the
25 authority to issue this order in the MUP staff?
1 A. The intention was to retain the population in the territory of
2 Kosovo and Metohija --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's not the question.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: -- the question is: Who had authority to send
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see -- actually, there is no
8 signature, I've just noticed. The head of the staff should have been
9 familiar with this dispatch that was sent -- rather, I don't really know
10 whether he was informed of that.
11 MR. ACKERMAN:
12 Q. That's still not an answer to the question. Who in the MUP staff
13 had or would have the authority to issue such a document? Who in the MUP
14 staff could do this?
15 A. The head of the staff.
16 Q. Right. That's all I have.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no more questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, do you have cross-examination?
21 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we don't need you to start this evening, but
23 how long are you likely to take?
24 MR. CEPIC: Roughly two hours, Your Honour, but I will check one
25 more time my questions and maybe I will cut.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. Well, there is certainly no point in
2 repeating the areas that have already been dealt with. We would be
3 grateful if you can look again at what's necessary in the circumstances.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, we need to bring today's proceedings
6 to an end and adjourn until tomorrow. That means you need to come back
7 here to continue your evidence at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon. Meanwhile,
8 it's a strict rule that we have that you should have no communication of
9 any kind with anyone at all about any aspect of the evidence in this
10 case. So please bear that in mind.
11 Please leave the courtroom now with the usher and we will see you
12 again tomorrow at 2.15.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of
16 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.