1 Wednesday, 9 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Sainovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone. We would like briefly
7 to deal with a matter in private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 25006-25010 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: We had a few matters to deal with prior to
4 commencing your evidence again. I'm sorry we kept you waiting, but your
5 cross-examination by Mr. Cepic will now commence. Please bear in mind
6 that the solemn declaration to speak the truth which you gave at the
7 outset continues to apply to your evidence today.
8 Mr. Cepic.
9 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: DUSKO ADAMOVIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. Have you had a bit of a rest? I have a few questions for you and
16 I will start with paragraph 8 of your statement. Do you have it in front
17 of you?
18 A. Let me take a look.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones
20 please be switched off except for the speaker's. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I'm interested in paragraph 8 you were explaining the appointment
24 of Radoslav Djinovic. According to this decision, as far as I can see,
25 he was appointed deputy head of staff of the MUP for the area of Kosovo.
1 Is there a decision appointing you assistant head of the MUP staff?
2 A. I don't have it, but there must have been one.
3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, according to that decision and by the very
4 nature of these activities, what was your exact duty in the MUP staff?
5 A. Well, one can say that it was police work. That is what it would
6 really correspond to, what I did.
7 Q. What was your exact job description, what was your job called?
8 A. I don't have the decision on my appointment. As far as I can
9 remember it arrived after I got to Pristina. Now, was it for operative
10 work, police work, is that what it read? I cannot say with any degree of
11 certainty but it certainly should be in the Ministry of the Interior.
12 Q. Would you agree with me that perhaps it could be assistant head
13 of the staff for interventions and operative planning?
14 A. I would not agree. It's certainly not the case.
15 Q. Can you define your job more specifically because in this
16 decision on the establishment of the staff I see that every assistant
17 head has his activity exactly set out. 1505 is the number, P1505.
18 Can we please see this document, P1505, on our screens.
19 A. In paragraph 28 I said briefly what it was that I dealt with,
20 paragraph in my statement.
21 Q. I think that my question was very specific, but I see in this
22 document, for instance, the assistant head for special operations, for
23 police, et cetera. I'm interested in your exact duty. What was it
25 A. When we look at these decisions on appointment, during my
1 preparations I saw a few. As far as the members of the staff are
2 concerned, obviously the ministry did not do this in a uniform manner as
3 regards the job descriptions of the members of the staff, what it was
4 that they were supposed to do.
5 Q. I'm just asking you whether you can tell me specifically what
6 this was or not. If you can't, let's move on. Just one sentence, one
7 word, assistant head of staff --
8 A. Assistant head of staff, what I did primarily related to
9 logistics, what I did, if that is what we are talking about.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you know, Mr. Adamovic, who you replaced from
11 this list?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who it was that I
13 replaced. I arrived on the 5th of July, 1998, and I did not find anyone
14 who would hand this duty over to me and instruct me in terms of the work
15 that he had been doing until then.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you possibly consider yourself to be number
17 two in the staff under General Lukic?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I could not consider myself
19 number two because I know who number two was.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Maybe I will clarify with
22 the next document.
23 Could we have P1071, please. Could we have second page, please.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Have you seen the first page, Mr. Adamovic, have
25 you seen the first page?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, the bottom -- on the bottom of the page - could we please
3 see it in English as well - we have the call-signs for radio link users
4 for the MUP staff. Tell me, in terms of the numbers we see here what
5 Kosava number would you be?
6 A. I really don't know because I did not use these communications
8 Q. So how was it that you communicated with the commanders of the
9 PJP units?
10 A. With the commanders of the units I communicated if they would
11 call from the field or if they would stop by the staff because they were
12 not duty-bound to call me and I wasn't duty-bound to call them either.
13 Q. What equipment did you use for communication?
14 A. Telephone links most of the time if they called the staff --
15 MR. LUKIC: I would kindly ask my colleague to specify time,
16 before the war, summer, wartime, because this was unit was different over
17 different times.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
19 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you do that?
21 MR. CEPIC: Yeah, yeah, of course.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Specifically I'm referring to the summer of 1998, Mr. Adamovic.
25 All these questions pertain to that period because I know that later you
1 were injured and that you were recovering through most of the war. So in
2 the summer of 1998 when anti-terrorist actions took place, am I right if
3 I say that you were using Motorolas radio communication in order to
4 communicate from time to time with the officers from the PJP units?
5 A. No, I did not communicate with them in that way or was there any
6 need for me to communicate in that way.
7 Q. Up until the 28th, or rather, the 29th of March, 1999, you
8 carried out your duties at the staff. Am I right if I say that
9 Lieutenant-Colonel Arsenijevic replaced you in those duties?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Am I right if I say that Lieutenant-Colonel Arsenijevic is also a
12 graduate of the military academy?
13 A. That's right.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have on our screens
15 6D773 on the right-hand side and on the left-hand side 5D1418, the last
16 page. Thank you. I need both documents in B/C/S. Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Adamovic, if we look at this document on the right-hand side
18 of the screen, 150 are the last numbers that are printed there, Colonel
19 Mijatovic confirmed to me that the signature down here was his, Colonel
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. My colleague asked Colonel Zivaljevic and Colonel Zivaljevic
23 allowed for the possibility that this is Arsenijevic's signature. We see
24 that signature and we see it on this document. You will agree with me
25 that this is actually Lieutenant-Colonel Arsenijevic's signature?
1 A. I don't know how he signs his name, but it says Arsa or something
2 like that. You can see A-r-s, that is quite obvious. I assume that it's
3 him, but I'm not sure.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Adamovic, your statement is in front of
5 you and can we have a look at paragraph 17. You claim here that the
6 staff was not involved in any way in the planning or organization or
7 direction of anti-terrorist operations. Even if it had been envisaged
8 that the staff should plan anti-terrorist actions this was rendered
9 invalid by the adoption of the plan to fight terrorism which was drawn up
10 at the level of the state, and so on and so forth. Are you saying that
11 in this way the document dated June 1998, P1505, became invalid,
13 A. I'm not saying that the staff no longer existed because we were
14 still down there, but what we did is a well-known thing.
15 Q. Was this decision that I quoted a few moments ago still in force?
16 A. As far as I know, I did not see another one. During the
17 operations here I saw these decisions. Whether there was some other one,
18 I really don't know.
19 Q. On the basis of what are you saying that planning anti-terrorist
20 activity was -- became invalid, was suspended?
21 A. Well, that is an assertion in relation to what the staff did. I
22 know what the staff did, and I'm just saying that by way of an assertion
23 that the staff did not plan anti-terrorist actions.
24 Q. Thank you. We'll look at minutes from a staff meeting, P3121 is
25 what I'd like to have displayed now. This is a record of the staff
1 meeting dated the 29th of July, 1998.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page, please.
3 Another page, please.
4 Q. Mr. Adamovic, you attended this meeting. We can see that here,
5 it's stated in the introductory part.
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we just see the bottom of the
8 first page.
9 Q. Please take a look at these words. General Lukic is speaking,
10 it's the sixth line from the end. It says: "The second stage of the
11 global plan was carried out."
12 A. I see that.
13 Q. Can you read that.
14 A. "The second stage of the global plan has been carried out in
15 accordance with the established schedule with ten detachments. Actions
16 were carried out in coordination with the Army of Yugoslavia (he gave a
17 detailed explanation about the locations at which actions had been
18 carried out and what had been achieved showing axes of action and other
19 things on a topographic map). He stressed that the next task was to
20 liberate and capture Drenica."
21 Q. Thank you. So this is seven days after the 22nd of July, and you
22 said that any kind of staff planning was derogated then.
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the next page.
24 Q. While we're waiting for the following page --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, you understood what was meant by the
1 global plan?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's a plan that was
3 explained to us, disclosed to us, in a meeting. It was said that a plan
4 had been adopted for carrying out anti-terrorist actions in whose
5 implementation the army and police were to participate.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Cepic.
8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] We can see that ten detachments have been
10 mentioned, ten police detachments. Can you tell me, please, what kind of
11 designations did they have, single-digit or two-digit designations in
12 that summer?
13 A. When it comes to detachment designations, they had their own
14 designations, if I may call them that, when they were in the territory of
16 during the preparations for carrying out actions in contact with the
17 Pristina Corps, these figures were reformulated so that from then on we
18 had both single-digit and two-digit designations but we always knew
19 exactly which detachments those were.
20 Q. Mr. Adamovic, in this courtroom we saw a document sending the
21 forces to the territory of Kosmet
22 clearly indicated on the 21st or 22nd of March, and it says there from
23 the 21st to 87th Detachment.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And this document was signed at the Ministry of the Interior?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And there is no mention of the army whatsoever, no mention of the
3 army either specifying these numbers or sending the forces?
4 A. In this document there can only be numerical designations that
5 the detachments had, and this is how these units were recognised in
7 Q. Who identified or who set those designations?
8 A. Colonel Djakovic when I provided the information. I don't know
9 why this was reformulated into numbers 1 to 10, but I know that both
10 myself and Colonel Djakovic knew exactly what that meant.
11 Q. Is there a decision on setting these designations, numbers of
13 A. I don't know about the Pristina Corps creating a plan for
14 carrying out actions.
15 Q. Would you look at page 2 of this document. Would you look at the
16 top of the page and read the last sentence in the first paragraph where
17 it says: "We need at least 2.000 more policemen ..."
18 Would you please read out that sentence.
19 A. "We need at least another 2.000 policemen, especially if possible
20 volunteers from the reserve police forces. Minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic
21 says this is a correction of the main plan."
22 Q. Read the next sentence, please.
23 A. "Major-General Sreten Lukic responded with a yes."
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Adamovic, do you stand by the position that after
25 the 22nd of June, 1998, the Main Staff -- the 22nd of July, 1998, the
1 Main Staff did not plan, organize, prepare any anti-terrorist actions?
2 A. When it comes to anti-terrorist actions in which --
3 Q. Would you please give us brief answers. Yes or no, do you stand
4 by your position presented in the statement or not? Just give us a yes
5 or no.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. We can see your name at the bottom, and here you
8 mention ammunition for 82-, 60-, and 120-millimetre mortars. Did all
9 detachments have all three types of mortars?
10 A. I'm not sure. I don't think so. I don't think they did. 82 and
11 60, yes, they had that, but not 120.
12 Q. At one of the meetings at the staff Colonel Zivaljevic pointed
13 out the problem of lacking ammunition for 20- and 30-millimetre calibre
14 weapons, for PATs, which is anti-aircraft gun. What kind of ammunition
15 is that, for what kind of a weapon?
16 A. Well, this is an acronym, and since I didn't study this at the
17 academy I think it stands for anti-aircraft gun.
18 Q. Would I be right in saying that this 20-millimetre ammunition
19 that Colonel Zivaljevic requested is the ammunition for anti-aircraft
20 guns on armoured vehicles known as BOV and BVP which were part of his
22 A. I really don't know what he needed the ammunition for since I
23 didn't go out in the field and I wasn't fully familiar with what kind of
24 weapons of that nature existed in the units. However, it is certain that
25 before the arrival the police did not have such equipment.
1 Q. Why is he then asking for ammunition, Colonel Zivaljevic?
2 A. I said before arrival in Kosovo, before arriving in Kosovo.
3 Q. You will agree with me, won't you, that within 122nd and 124th
4 Intervention Brigades in the territory of Kosovo
5 vehicles known as BOV and BVP?
6 A. The armoured vehicles existed within the establishment units of
7 the police from a previous period of time. They were used as armoured
8 vehicles intended for transporting policemen from one location to another
9 location in case where they could come under fire.
10 Q. And in those tasks these brigades, 122nd and 124th, were the
11 prominent ones, correct?
12 A. Yes, although the 122nd one had very few, I don't know exactly
13 how many, but very few pieces of such equipment, they were quite old and
14 basically almost could not be used anymore.
15 Q. The 124th had many more armoured pieces of equipment, correct?
16 A. Yes, it had more.
17 Q. Thank you. Colonel Zivaljevic also mentioned 30-millimetre
18 ammunition, saying that he needed that as well. You will agree with me,
19 won't you, that the 30-millimetre ammunition is needed for Praga; is that
21 A. I don't even know what Praga looks like.
22 Q. Mr. Adamovic, you say that you don't even know what Praga looks
23 like, and you completed military academy. You have just told us that you
24 dealt with logistics and now I'm all confused.
25 A. These pieces of equipment were not routinely used by police
1 units. I did graduate from the military academy, but I don't remember
2 encountering such equipment while at the academy. I don't think we even
3 studied that equipment within the infantry.
4 Q. Mr. Adamovic, at this meeting your words are quoted here. Would
5 you please look at this. It says here: "Wheel sets for armoured
6 vehicles," you mentioned BOV vehicles and then you say that you don't
7 know what these types of equipment looked like.
8 A. BOV and Praga are two different things. Here at the meeting I'm
9 mentioning the requests that had come from the field. It's not like I
10 was out in the field requesting this equipment.
11 Q. So you can still discern between a BOV and a Praga?
12 A. Yes, since I know what a BOV is.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 A. But it's questionable whether I would be able to recognise a BOV
15 because there are several model -- several types of these armoured
17 Q. We had a question here dealing with command and control.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page of
19 this document, please. It's on the screens in front of us. We need the
20 words uttered by Minister Stojiljkovic. Fifth line from the bottom.
21 Q. Would you please read that sentence.
22 A. "Commanding is better."
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Adamovic. Now, let's look at a brief
24 video excerpt.
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Defence Exhibit
1 5D1455, which is a videotape dating 10th of June, 1998.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "A visit was organized today for
4 foreign journalists accredited in Belgrade to the places that have
5 recently been subjected to increased activity by Siptar terrorist
6 gangs" --
7 MR. CEPIC: Unfortunately we have some technical problem and we
8 hope that my assistant will solve that in a short period of time.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In Belgrade a visit was organized
11 today for foreign journalists accredited to the places that have recently
12 been subjected to increased activity by Siptar terrorist acts. Police
13 General Sreten Lukic and the chief of the State Security Service for
14 Kosovo and Metohija, David Gajic, briefed the reporters on the current
15 situation in the territory of Decani
16 been particularly subjected to terrorist attacks. Gajic said that the
17 terrorists' objective was to take full control of the area, cleanse it
18 ethnically, and thus make it possible for terrorist gangs from Albania
19 infiltrate and bring in weapons. The terrorists' targets in the attacks
20 were houses of Serbs and Montenegrins, but also those owned by Albanians
21 loyal to Serbia
22 about Serbian and Montenegrin civilian casualties.
23 "The terrorists have committed a series of crimes against the
24 Serbian population. 73 Serbian families have been moved out without the
25 right to take anything from their houses with them. 200 Serbs and
1 Montenegrins who wanted to return from Montenegro were not allowed to do
2 so. During this short period of time, eight Serbs were killed, eight
3 were abducted and their whereabouts remain unknown and eight people were
4 wounded. During this period there were also several attacks on convoys
5 and police patrols that were bringing food to refugees and civilians.
6 "About 70 foreign journalists visited Decani, Crnobreg, and
7 Prilep to see firsthand what the objectives of the renegade terrorist
8 gangs made up of members of the Albanian ethnic minority were. The
9 attacks from these locations, real bunkers were synchronised, General
10 Lukic stressed, and the journalists could see it for themselves, that
11 only the houses from which Siptar terrorists had fired on the police and
12 civilians were damaged during the operation."
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Adamovic, we have just seen this video excerpt dated 10th of
15 June, 1998, and this is a report on legitimate anti-terrorist actions in
16 the territory of Decani municipality as carried out by police forces, and
17 in this excerpt we saw General Lukic explaining on the map the movement
18 of units --
19 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me. I haven't seen General Lukic showing
20 movement of the units on the map, I haven't seen it, maybe somebody else
21 saw it in this courtroom.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the
24 footage was clear enough. If necessary, we can show it again.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: You can ask the witness what he saw General Lukic
1 doing and you can proceed with your question.
2 MR. LUKIC: I saw General Lukic standing in front --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, we'll ask the witness, Mr. Lukic, please,
4 rather than prompting, as has caused us a great deal of concern with the
5 objections. The objection is legitimate but not the supplementary --
6 MR. LUKIC: I apologise.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
8 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] I'm afraid that the witness has now been
10 suggested what his answer should be, but nevertheless I will put my
11 question to him. Mr. Adamovic, what kind of the map could we see behind
12 General Lukic and generally what kind of maps existed in the map on which
13 General Lukic showed the movement of units as we can see in the document
14 that we just read dated the 29th --
15 MR. LUKIC: Objection, has it been establish that this is a
16 meeting of the MUP staff, I don't know that.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what this relates to is a visit for foreign
18 journalists, and somewhere or other I've got the date the 10th of June,
19 1998. Now, the location, I'm not sure about.
20 MR. CEPIC: Decani.
21 MR. LUKIC: Sorry.
22 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] By your leave I would now ask the
23 witness about the video footage that we have seen, but I see that
24 Mr. Hannis is on his feet.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
1 MR. HANNIS: I do have an objection regarding foundation, Your
2 Honour. The 10th of June, 1998, is the date I think we heard from
3 Mr. Cepic, not from the witness. This witness, as I understand, did not
4 come to Kosovo until July of 1998. So I'm not sure whether he can assist
5 us with this at all.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. What's your response to that?
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a very brief
10 period of time, only 20 days, and the witness probably knows about this.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: On what basis?
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Membership on the staff.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: But he wasn't there on the 10th of June.
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Possibly later on in July he had
15 knowledge of the actions carried out by the MUP in June in the area of
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if that's your question I don't know what we
18 were looking at a video for. Let's hear what your question is and
19 then --
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, has be established whether Sreten Lukic
21 was member of the MUP staff at that time also. It has to be established
22 the location, many things, before something is proposed to this witness.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, let's hear what the question is, first of
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Adamovic, I assume that you had knowledge about independent
2 police actions that were carried out in the month of June just before you
3 arrived in Kosmet, right?
4 A. I had knowledge only of the complex situation, if I can put it
5 that way, and on the intensified activity of the Siptar terrorist forces.
6 Q. Thank you. On this video footage we saw a map, a topographic
7 map. What kind of maps did you use in the staff?
8 A. Geography maps for the most part and topographic maps of the area
9 of Kosovo.
10 Q. Thank you. Who drew the axes of movement of MUP units for
11 independent MUP actions on these maps?
12 A. I have no knowledge of whether this was drawn and whether they
13 had topographic maps out in the field. The police practically does not
14 have topographic maps in its regular work.
15 Q. Mr. Adamovic, let's not go back to the document. On the 29th of
16 July, the meeting, General Lukic indicated on a topographic map the axes
17 of activity of the PJP detachments. Who drew the axes of PJP activity --
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, just before you answer that.
19 Mr. Lukic has already objected to the formulation of that
20 question, but his objection is to the part that is narrative which any of
21 us can assess for ourselves. Your question is simply: Who drew the axes
22 of PJP activity. Now, how do you expect this witness to know that when
23 he wasn't there?
24 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked him now about
25 the meeting on the 29th of July, 1998, in the wish to save time so that
1 we don't open yet again the document that we looked at a few moments ago
2 but --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, I thought we were looking at the same
4 material, so it's my mistake. Please continue.
5 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I have to doubt, Mr. Cepic, what the point of that
7 video was now in showing it and --
8 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I expected the witness to provide
9 more information.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I think you should focus your cross-examination
11 and finish it by the break.
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Adamovic, we saw at this meeting that you attended on the
14 29th of July that General Lukic gave more detailed explanation on a
15 topographic map regarding the axes of activity of the PJP. Who was it
16 that drew these axes on the map for the independent actions of the PJP?
17 A. First of all, the axes of activity were not drawn on that map and
18 they were not on that map in the first place. This was purely a
19 topographic map on which General Lukic indicated with his own hand what
20 the axes were. So it was not a map that had been drawn on. These were
21 anti-terrorist actions that were already underway.
22 Q. Can you tell me who drew maps for the detachments themselves for
23 their independent actions?
24 A. No one from the staff drew maps for the detachments. I don't
25 even know to which extent the detachments took part in these independent
1 actions. They don't really --
2 Q. Is it your testimony that the detachments did not take part in
3 independent actions?
4 A. Could I just explain so that it's clearer to all?
5 Q. You've just said that.
6 A. If we talk about anti-terrorist actions --
7 Q. I'm asking you specifically, Mr. Adamovic. Please let us move
8 through my questions faster. I'm putting them very simply and I'm saying
9 in terms of independent actions of PJP detachments, who drew their maps
10 for them --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.
12 Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: It first has to be established whether there were
14 independent actions of MUP detachments, and time.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Why don't you give an example, Mr. Cepic --
16 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: -- that might assist?
18 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour. With your leave, I will start with
19 another topic and I will catch also this one.
20 [Interpretation] P1991, could we have that on our screens,
21 please, and 1990 as well, please. So -- actually, I made a mistake. I'm
22 asking for 1990.
23 Q. Mr. Adamovic, the 17th of February, 1999, meeting at the MUP
24 staff. You attended that meeting, didn't you? It says here all members
25 of the staff.
1 A. Well, the answer is probably yes then.
2 Q. Thank you. Please look at the bottom of the first page. A plan
3 was elaborated. Could you please read that sentence out to me.
4 A. "A plan of the RJB was elaborated in order to prevent and thwart
5 entry of NATO troops into our territory."
6 Q. Next sentence.
7 A. "The staff planned to carry out, when so ordered, three actions
8 of cleansing the area of terrorists in the Podujevo, Dragobilje, and
9 Drenica areas and police forces were prepared for that of around 4.000
10 policemen" --
11 Q. Fine. That will do. What does RJB mean?
12 A. Public security sector.
13 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] 5D1428, could we have that on our
14 screens now, please. Unfortunately we don't have a translation of this
15 document, so could we please have a look at page 3.
16 Q. Mr. Adamovic, we don't have a translation of this document, so
17 could you please read the header.
18 A. "The Republic of Serbia, the Ministry of the Interior, staff of
19 the ministry, 12A number, the 25th of January, 1999, Pristina."
20 Q. And what is the heading, what does the title say?
21 A. "Information on the activities of the Ministry of the Interior of
22 the Republic of Serbia in combatting terrorism in the area of Kosovo and
23 Metohija in the period from the 27th of October, 1998, until the 25th of
24 January, 1999."
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 5 on e-court now,
3 Q. Mr. Adamovic, we don't have a translation of this document, so
4 could you please read the fourth paragraph from the top.
5 A. "In addition to increased engagement of the police in the
6 implementation of all tasks, several planned actions were carried out
7 involving a larger number of participants (the 15th, 16th, and 17th of
8 December in Kapasnica and other neighbourhoods in Pec; on the 14th of
9 December in Donja Lapastica; on the 17th of December in Glodjane; on the
10 25th and 26th of December in the neighbourhoods of Bajir and Tamnik in
11 Kosovska Mitrovica; on the 27th of December in Obrandza; on the 9th of
12 January in Perani; on the 14th through the 16th of January in the area of
13 the village of Dasinovac; on the 15th and 17th --
14 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Please try and focus this.
16 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Adamovic, you will agree with me that
18 several independent police actions were enumerated here with the dates of
19 their implementation; is that right?
20 A. That is what is written here.
21 Q. Who drew the maps for the implementation of these independent
22 actions by the MUP, a few were enumerated here right now.
23 A. I really cannot say whether any were drawn and if so by who.
24 Obviously this has to do with police actions that had been planned by the
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying, Mr. Adamovic, that in your
2 experience you have never seen a map relating to an action that was
3 prepared by a member of the MUP?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I claim that with full
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
7 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] At the meeting of the 17th of February we saw
9 that there was a plan of the RJB. Could you please read out the next
11 A. I'm sorry --
12 Q. The next paragraph, it starts with the words: "With a view to
13 the more efficient ..."
14 A. "With a view to the more efficient implementation of tasks an
15 action plan was drawn up in case NATO tries to enter the territory of
16 Kosovo and Metohija from Macedonia
17 submitted to all secretariats in Kosovo and Metohija and to border police
18 stations in order for them to become familiar with it."
19 Q. Thank you. How many days is this before the 17th of February,
20 this document?
21 A. I don't remember what the day was.
22 Q. The 25th of January, the 25th of January, that's what the heading
24 A. Yes. I don't understand your question.
25 Q. How many days is this before that meeting that was held on the
1 17th of February?
2 A. If my math is right, it's 22 days.
3 Q. It's excellent.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at 6D716 again,
6 Could we please call up 6D716 in e-court.
7 Q. Mr. Adamovic, you gave your comments in respect of this document
8 in your statement. Do you have it before you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you see it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This order of the MUP command dated the 19th of February, 1999
13 who does it issue orders to, tasks to who, only the Ministry of the
14 Interior --
15 MR. LUKIC: Objection.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: MUP command. We have had testimony from other
18 witnesses that there is no such a body. Yesterday we showed that this
19 document has never been produced inside the MUP. It first has to be
20 established what kind of document, then proposing that there is some kind
21 of MUP command.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a matter for us to consider in due course.
23 We're looking at the moment at a document which clearly makes -- refers
24 to MUP command and questions about it are perfectly legitimate and we'll
25 decide in due course what weight if any to give the document and the
1 answers that are given to questions relating to it. So we repel that
3 Please continue, Mr. Cepic.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, may I call you Colonel, do you mind?
6 A. I don't understand.
7 Q. Are you a colonel or a general, you were retired with what rank?
8 A. Colonel.
9 Q. General would have been a nicer rank, do you think you think, but
10 I'm going to address you as colonel.
11 A. That would be right.
12 Q. You will agree with me that in paragraph 5 tasks are issued only
13 to the units of the Ministry of the Interior?
14 A. No. Tasks are issued to the units of the ministry as well as to
15 the units of the army.
16 Q. If you say so.
17 A. The document says so.
18 Q. Why don't you turn to page 4, page 4 in e-court, item 5, 5.1,
19 please. Let us now see, this is Zivaljevic's unit. Doesn't it say here
20 that this is the task only for the 22nd Detachment of PJP?
21 A. But it says with the support of BG 211th and so on.
22 Q. But the task is issued exclusively to the 22nd Detachment; isn't
23 that right?
24 A. No, that's not what it says here.
25 Q. Why don't you read this out, tell us what it says there. Please
1 start with 5.1. It says here: "22nd Detachment of PJP without the 5th
2 and the 6th" --
3 A. It says here: "The 22nd Detachment of the PJP without the 5th
4 and 6th Company of the PJP ... from the deployment sector to be brought
5 to the following line: Donja Repa, Prepolac, village of Donja Lopastica
6 Still no task and then the task. Starting from a semiflexible position
7 along the Krpimej village - Prepolac - Donja Lopastica village, Obrandza
8 village, and with the support by BG 211 carry out a comprehensive attack
9 along the axes" -- should I read on?
10 Q. No. Why don't you read 5.2 to us, item 5.2.
11 A. "5th Detachment of the PJP from the deployment sector to be
12 brought to the following line: Glavnik village - Sibovac village.
13 "Task: With the support of BG 15-1, carry out attack along the
14 following axis."
15 Q. Thank you. Why don't you read item 5.4 to us, please.
16 A. "The SAJ to be sent from their deployment sector to the sector of
17 Gornja Pak astica village and Kraljevci village.
18 "Task: During the night the unit shall on D-1 get into the
19 broader sector of Kodralija village, Rekalija village, Krs trig point
20 1103, and shall prevent the withdrawal of Siptar terrorist forces from
21 the areas of Bradas village, Bajcina village, Dobroin village, and then
22 withdrawing to the sector of Bajgora."
23 Q. All right. We don't need to read all of it. It's all part of
24 the evidence now.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's part of the evidence anyway by you
1 drawing attention to it but you haven't asked a question.
2 Mr. Adamovic, are you actually saying that in 5.1 and 5.2 there
3 are tasks issued to anybody other than the PJP?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One can see there that there are
5 also tasks given to some other forces; however, this order as a whole
6 looks suspicious or questionable to me and I can explain if needed.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: That's not what you're being asked. You're being
8 asked whether it bears to issue tasks to any forces other than the PJP.
9 Now, what's the answer to that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there are tasks.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Very well. Well, that's interesting because there
12 are many more VJ documents written in similar language referring to the
13 MUP and to other bodies such as the armed non-Siptar population, so your
14 evidence will assist us in interpreting these.
15 Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Adamovic, have you graduated from the military academy?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you read orders, are you able to?
20 A. I'm not a soldier in the true sense of the word. I graduated
21 from the military academy 18 years before the events in Kosovo. It is
22 possible that I do not have the best observation when it comes to certain
23 issues. These are my interpretations. Now, as to whether they are
24 correct or not I can't tell you because I haven't dealt with these issues
25 for 18 years. I just told you about what I read in the documents, what
1 the documents say.
2 Q. You will agree with me that the 22nd PJP Detachment could not
3 command a combat group of the Army of Yugoslavia?
4 A. I will repeat once again. The 22nd Detachment cannot be expected
5 to command a combat group; however, if all of this pertains to an
6 anti-terrorist action where broader forces are participating then it is
7 the Pristina Corps that draws up plans.
8 Q. Mr. Adamovic, I'm not asking you who draws up a plan. I just
9 asked you to read out what it says here. You read this out and you gave
10 a completely different interpretation, unlike all other witnesses who
11 came here.
12 A. Well, it is possible that I'm just ignorant when it comes to
13 these issues.
14 Q. Thank you. Now let us please look at item 866, the last page in
15 the B/C/S version, I suppose it's the same in English.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Item 866, what do you mean by that?
17 MR. CEPIC: 8.6.6, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, on this document. Thank you.
19 MR. CEPIC: Yeah, yeah, precisely, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 Could we have the last page in B/C/S, please.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adamovic, who was at the head of the PJP
22 command in Pristina?
23 A. The PJP command was not engaged at all in Kosovo.
24 Q. And who was supposed to be there?
25 A. It should have been both the commander and the command if it was
1 operational at all.
2 Q. Thank you. This document is from the 19th of February?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Could we now look at P1990, which are the minutes of the meeting
5 on the 17th of February. The meeting was held two days before this
6 document was drafted, the document that we just looked at, Mr. Adamovic;
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You read the bottom part and I will ask you to read that again
10 and also the following sentence in its entirety. Could we now see the
11 bottom part, please.
12 Please look -- start reading from the following sentence: "The
13 staff planned ..."
14 A. "... once it was ordered to carry out three operations cleansing
15 the terrain from the terrorists in the Podujevo" --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Just stop.
17 What's the question?
18 MR. CEPIC: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't want you reading things for the sake of
20 having them in the transcript, and you've been tending to do.
21 MR. CEPIC: With your leave, the next sentence is very important
22 and I need the context of both sentences.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Please continue.
24 MR. CEPIC: Could the witness continue.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adamovic, could you please continue.
1 A. "... in the sectors of Podujevo, Dragobilje, and Drenica and the
2 police forces numbering about 4.000 members, about 70 policemen from an
3 OPG group, and about 900 police reservists were planned for that."
4 Q. Now the following sentence.
5 A. "On Saturday, 20 February 1999, a meeting will be held at the
6 staff with all commanders of police unit detachments for further
7 consultations and their engagement."
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what's your question?
10 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Adamovic, we see that the day after this MUP staff order was
12 issued a meeting was scheduled for all commanders of PJP detachments.
13 Who chaired the meeting?
14 A. I don't remember that meeting, I truly don't. That was nine
15 years ago after all. Perhaps if you have a document that could refresh
16 my memory about what was discussed then I could perhaps remember some
17 things if this meeting was held at all.
18 Q. Could you perhaps have an idea who should have chaired that
19 meeting that was held in February of 1999?
20 A. Well, that depends on the topic. Looking at this it's hard to
21 say. I would have to speculate; that's not something I would do gladly
22 because I can't make conclusions on the basis of what is stated here.
23 Q. All PJP commanders were invited?
24 A. Yes, but without a topic that was to be discussed at the meeting
25 it would be hard for me to analyse it further.
1 Q. You read out the previous sentence where it says that the staff
2 planned three actions, and then the follow-up question is that a meeting
3 was scheduled on the 20th of February?
4 A. If that's what you have in mind, then the meeting was definitely
5 not scheduled on that account because such meetings were not held.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following you. It says a meeting will be
7 held. So what are you saying about that meeting?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I don't know
9 whether the meeting was held; and if it was, then what was the reason for
10 it. The question put to me was whether this meeting pertained to the
11 action mentioned in the document, and I know that we did not hold
12 meetings with detachment commanders on account of this action on any --
13 or any other action. So it does not say in this document what the topic
14 of this meeting was supposed to be.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: It says clearly what it was. It says that a
16 plan's been worked out to prevent and thwart the entry of NATO troops,
17 the staff plans when it is ordered to carry out three mopping-up
18 operations using a large force of men that's described. On Saturday,
19 20th February, a meeting of the staff will be held with all police unit
20 detachment commanders for further consultations and their engagement was
21 the translation we got a moment ago. Are you saying that's a meeting
22 about something else?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have simply no information. I
24 just don't remember whether this meeting was held at all. We can see
25 here that there was a meeting on the 17th of February and then this
1 following was allegedly scheduled for the 20th. I simply don't remember
2 whether it was held; and if so, what was discussed, what attended it, and
3 so on. I simply don't have any recollections about it, not enough to be
4 able to give any comment.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: But you've said something else. You've said that:
6 "We did not hold meetings with detachment commanders on account of this
7 action or any other action."
8 So you a moment ago said you do remember that there was no such
9 meeting. Now, which is it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I apologise. Perhaps it
11 was misinterpreted. I did not say that this meeting on the 20th of
12 February was held. It says here that it is supposed to be held, but I
13 simply don't remember whether it was held or not.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: We will ask CLSS to give us a revised translation
15 of page 37, 5 to 11.
16 Mr. Cepic, what else do you have to ask about?
17 MR. CEPIC: A couple of questions in relation to -- in relation
18 to MUP staff and some document from 1993.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you do that in ten minutes after the break?
20 MR. CEPIC: I will try to do my best, Your Honour, but this
21 witness is so important it's very important so --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: We appreciate he's important, but we also feel
23 that you've asked a number of things that really didn't focus the issues
24 of importance. So it may emerge that we're wrong about that, of course,
25 and that you have actually identified the ones that really matter. I --
1 we will be very reluctant to exceed another 15 minutes, Mr. Cepic. So
2 please bring your mind to bear over the break and what you really need to
3 ask in that time. Thank you.
4 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: We need to have a break at this stage,
6 Mr. Adamovic, that will be for 20 minutes. So please again leave the
7 courtroom with the usher. We'll see you again at ten minutes past 4.00.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adamovic, it's me again.
15 A. Please go ahead.
16 Q. In your statement and during your testimony you mentioned that
17 from the corps you were in contact with then-Colonel Djakovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know that Colonel Djakovic in the beginning of 1999 left
20 the corps and went to another duty?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you find it necessary to have contact with
23 representatives of the Pristina Corps afterwards?
24 A. Well, I'm not sure, I said that --
25 Q. Very well. Thank you.
1 Now I'm going to ask you something about reserve police stations
2 or branches. Yesterday you said to my colleague Mr. Ackerman that RPO
3 were armed by the MUP and by the Army of Yugoslavia. Am I right if I say
4 that for its own needs the MUP temporarily engaged within the RPO
5 military conscripts from the Army of Yugoslavia as well who had their own
6 weapons that had been issued to them?
7 A. Since this was not exactly my line of work, as far as I know, in
8 these RPOs there were reserve policemen and reserve soldiers too. How
9 the actual arming took place I really don't know.
10 Q. Yesterday you said to my colleague Mr. Ackerman that your role in
11 terms of implementing tasks within the MUP was a totally unimportant one
12 and that you were not aware of the situation concerning the so-called KLA
13 in the field, what their strength was, and so on. At meetings of the MUP
14 staff was there any discussion about terrorist forces in the territory of
16 A. There was information when the chiefs of secretariats were
17 present and when they said what it was that was happening in their
18 respective areas, but with that exception the staff never discussed these
20 Q. However, I assume that the staff did have information to the
21 effect that the KLA was preparing a spring offensive?
22 A. It is certain that there was a link, if I can put it that way, in
23 this kind of mutual exchange of information with the RDB, with the
24 Pristina Corps, and so on; however, I did not take part in that.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: That really isn't an answer to that question. I
1 mean, did you have information that the KLA was preparing a spring
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information, if I can put it
4 that way, is something that we did receive and if we can put it this way,
5 the head of the staff in a way transmitted this to us and also such
6 information was coming in from the field that quite simply this spring
7 offensive was being prepared for these -- and that these units were being
8 additionally armed and so on and so forth.
9 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] P3122 is what I'd like to have called
10 up now, please. Page 3, please, in B/C/S.
11 Q. Colonel, we see that you were present at that meeting as well.
12 In all fairness, at that time it was Lieutenant-Colonel Dusko Adamovic?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Let's just look at the last page in B/C/S, or rather, the fourth
15 one, the one-but-last in B/C/S. Could we please see the page before this
16 in English. It's the second bullet point in English. Do you see at the
17 top of the page in Serbian: "The Siptar terrorists are organizing and
18 setting out in a decisive offensive in the spring ..."
19 Do you remember these words?
20 A. Well, I cannot say that I remember these exact words now, but if
21 that is what is recorded in the minutes then that was certainly discussed
22 and that was certainly said. There is no reason for me to doubt, well,
23 I've already said this, that we had this kind of knowledge.
24 Q. Thank you. When you talked about the global plan and the combat
25 against terrorism, you actually meant the period from July to September
1 1998, right?
2 A. Well, when I talked about these things in general I was just
3 referring to what it was that the police did and what it was that the
4 police and army did. It is best perhaps to separate these two segments
5 that way.
6 Q. You meant the implementation of this plan in the July to
7 September period, right?
8 A. I've never seen that plan so I don't know what period it referred
9 to and what it said actually. It was said what it was that the police
10 and the army were supposed to do.
11 Q. Thank you, Colonel. No further questions for you.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Cepic.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, you'll now be cross-examined by the
15 Prosecutor, Mr. Stamp -- sorry, my mistake. Mr. Hannis.
16 MR. HANNIS: No problem. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not wishful thinking.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. I'll start with asking you some
20 questions --
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. -- about your witness statement, Exhibit 6D1613. In paragraph 2
23 you tell us that you were assigned to Kosovo from the 5th of July, 1998,
24 until the time that you were injured and left on the 29th of March, 1999
25 Can you tell us how you came to be assigned to Kosovo? How did you first
1 find out about it? Did you receive a written document or did someone
2 come in and tell you? How did that happen?
3 A. My superior told me about that, my superior in the organizational
4 unit that I worked in and that is the secretariat in Belgrade, the police
6 Q. What was his name?
7 A. Ivan Maksimovic.
8 Q. And do you recall approximately when that was?
9 A. I really cannot remember how many days that was before I was
10 actually sent there, but it wasn't more than seven days before I was sent
11 there, perhaps it was even less.
12 Q. That seems like pretty short notice. Did he tell you why you
13 were being picked for that?
14 A. Well, he didn't tell me and I didn't ask. As a professional even
15 until then I went out on different assignments.
16 Q. And I think you told us earlier that you don't have a copy of the
17 document that made that assignment, right?
18 A. That's right, I don't.
19 Q. But did you see a copy of that document at some point in time?
20 A. I think that the document reached Pristina while I was already
21 down there.
22 Q. And did you see it then down there sometime in 1998?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And I take it that's the only way we know that you were a member
25 of the MUP staff was because it said so on that document?
1 A. Well, that's what's written in the document, my document, my
2 individual document.
3 Q. And who signed that document, do you remember?
4 A. I think, I think, it was signed by the chief of the public
5 security sector, that's what I think.
6 Q. General Djordjevic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you told us in your statement in paragraph 6 about who the
9 staff members were when you arrived on the 5th of July, 1998. Did you
10 ever see a document naming all those people of -- as members of the MUP
12 A. I saw it here during my preparations.
13 Q. You saw a document naming these people in item number 6, that is,
14 Lukic, Mijatovic, Zdravkovic, et cetera, or --
15 A. I saw several documents here pertaining to the membership on the
16 staff, and there are different persons mentioned in the documents I saw.
17 So not all of these people are mentioned in one single document.
18 Q. All right. Well, that's what I'm curious about. I -- we here
19 have all seen Exhibit P1505 which is that 16 June 1998 document creating
20 a MUP staff for the suppression of terrorism. Do you need to see that
21 one again? Would it help you if I showed it to you?
22 A. It depends on what the question is.
23 Q. Well, just for convenience let me give you a copy. I can hand
24 you a hard copy. Now, you saw that one before, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And this is one that's signed by Minister Stojiljkovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you see on there that the deputy head in this document is
4 listed as David Gajic not Miroslav Mijatovic, right?
5 A. That's what it says in the document, but that's not the way it
7 Q. Did you personally ever see a document that named Miroslav
8 Mijatovic as deputy head of staff?
9 A. I do not recall having seen him -- well, only the decision, his
10 decision, but I did not see him but I saw the decision referring to him
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that P1505 that's on the screen here?
13 MR. HANNIS: No. That's -- that looks like the witness's
14 statement that's on the screen.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, sorry.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. Well, let me ask you if you remember because you talked about
18 seeing the -- your own decision that made you a member of the staff.
19 Have you ever seen the document since that time? You don't have a copy
20 of your own; is that right?
21 A. I don't have a copy of my own.
22 Q. And it's been confusing to some of us, or at least to me, because
23 I've seen some other documents about a MUP staff in Kosovo and it's just
24 basically called a ministerial staff in Kosovo. But this document,
25 P1505, talks about a ministerial staff for the suppression of terrorism,
1 a very specific name. And I just wondered, do you remember now what your
2 personal appointment document said? Did it say you were a member of the
3 MUP staff in Kosovo or did it say you were a member of the MUP staff for
4 the suppression of terrorism or something else?
5 A. It is hard for me to answer that question because I really do not
6 remember. I think that usually the formulation was the MUP staff, but
7 I'm not making any assertions.
8 Q. That's perfectly understandable to me. It was a long time ago.
9 What about the appointment document for Mr. Mijatovic, do you remember
10 what it said?
11 A. I don't remember because I never saw his document.
12 Q. Now, I want to ask you in your preparation for testifying here
13 did you see or did anyone show you a document creating a MUP staff in the
14 end of May or the beginning of June 1999? Do you recall if you were
15 shown that document?
16 A. I don't remember having seen it. Maybe I did see it because
17 there were many documents, but I don't remember, I really don't.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Going back just briefly to the video-clip you
19 viewed earlier, did you see David Gajic in that video?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see that.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 Mr. Hannis.
23 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
24 Q. And did you see David Gajic in Kosovo after you arrived in July
25 1998 during the -- did you see him during that second half of the year in
1 1998 in Pristina?
2 A. Yes, for a while he was there but when he exactly returned I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Okay. You mentioned in paragraphs 7 through 9 Mr. Gajic, Legija,
5 Zivko Trajkovic, Radoslav Djinovic, and Misa Vilotic, and in paragraph 10
6 of your statement you say you didn't hear from the colleagues who had
7 come to the staff before you that those persons were ever involved in the
8 work of the staff. But you didn't ask them about that, did you, you
9 wouldn't have any reason to ask them if Gajic and Djinovic and those
10 others ever did any work on the staff, right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And if I understood correctly you never saw this document, P1505,
13 until you came here to prepare to testify; is that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 12 of your statement you mention
16 that the head of staff wasn't authorised to appoint or dismiss members
17 but that he could make recommendations. And you say that before
18 candidates or staff members were selected consultations about this were
19 held with each line of work at the MUP head office. Now, do you mean the
20 consultations were held at the MUP headquarters in Belgrade about
21 candidates for MUP staff in Kosovo?
22 A. Not at the MUP command but in the MUP that is a regular thing, a
23 usual thing. If an officer who has a particular line of work, now is it
24 police, is it crime prevention or other jobs, it is only natural to have
25 consultations within that administration. And it usually makes a
1 proposal as to who it is that could do that particular job.
2 Q. Well, I mean, that sounds logical to me and I understand that's a
3 good way to proceed, but how do you know that? Do you know personally
4 that that was done in this situation in June of 1998 and July of 1998
5 when you were appointed?
6 A. Well, I cannot make any assertions specifically about this staff,
7 but my experience from the previous period, because for a while I worked
8 in the ministry, leads me to draw that conclusion. In this case I cannot
9 confirm this fully but it's the usual thing, at least that's the way it
10 was in the ministry while I was there.
11 Q. Okay. I want to move to paragraph 16 where you say the staff was
12 not involved in any way in the planning, organization, and leadership of
13 the MUP organizational units in Kosovo and Metohija. My first question
14 is: What was your understanding about the definition of that term
15 "organizational units" in Kosovo? What would those have been?
16 A. When it comes to MUP organizational units, both in Kosovo and
17 outside of Kosovo, there is a document within the ministry about
18 organization, how the ministry 's organized, what its organizational
19 units are. Secretariats of the interior were established in Kosovo, a
20 total of seven of them, as organizational units of the ministry. The
21 same principle was applied as in other parts of Serbia when it comes to
22 the way the ministry was organized.
23 Q. Okay. So in addition to SUPs were there any other organizational
24 units in Kosovo in 1998 and 1999?
25 A. Do you mean those that were sent there or the ones existing in
1 Kosovo? There were border police stations outside of SUPs or in addition
2 to SUPs, and they were directly linked to the -- to their administration
3 within the seat of the ministry, which means they were not part of the
4 Kosovo secretariat.
5 Q. But were border police considered organizational units?
6 A. Yes. That was an organizational unit, or rather, those were
7 parts of the border police administration which existed within the
8 ministry seat and they had stations that existed for controlling how the
9 state border is crossed both in the territory of Kosovo
10 Kosovo, and all of those units belonged to the border police
12 Q. And the border police administration was considered an
13 organizational unit of the MUP, right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. What about the PJP?
16 A. Well, when it comes to PJPs they were not organizational units.
17 Why? In addition to the document on organization defining these units as
18 I've described to you, there is also a document on how staffing
19 requirements are resolved so that within each organizational unit jobs
20 would be defined and number of people needed to perform those jobs. When
21 it comes to PJPs, members of the police who were members of PJPs were
22 organized or assigned to secretariats and they performed regular police
23 duties. That is to say they were not a separate organizational unit. If
24 needed, I can additionally explain.
25 Q. Well, let me ask you a question first and then maybe I'll ask you
1 to do that. Then if I understand, isn't it correct that every individual
2 who was a member of the PJP was also a member of some secretariat?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Okay. And the secretariats were organizational units, right?
5 A. Of the ministry, correct.
6 Q. Okay. Do you have Exhibit 1505 in front of you still, that MUP
7 staff decision?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. If you would look at -- I'm not sure what page it is for
10 you, I think it might be page 2, it's item number 2 right after the
11 sentence about other members of the ministry may be appointed to the
12 staff on request to the head. Do you see that item number 2? It says:
13 "The staff is tasked with planning ..."
14 A. I'm looking at the decision that I have, the document on the
16 Q. Yeah, do you see item number 2: "The staff is tasked with
17 planning, organizing, and managing the activities and use of the
18 organizational units of the ministry, both the sent and attached
19 units ..."
20 Can you give me an example of a sent organizational unit in
21 Kosovo in 1998 or 1999?
22 A. PJP units can be considered as units that were sent, any one of
23 them can be considered.
24 Q. Right. But from what you answered before I understood that PJP
25 weren't considered organizational units.
1 A. No, they were not considered that. I said that members of a PJP
2 belonged to a secretariat, and a secretariat is an organizational unit of
3 the ministry.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: The difference between organizational unit and unit,
6 so maybe it causes confusion but it's -- those are two different things.
7 MR. HANNIS: Well, my first question was: What was a sent
8 organizational unit.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, Mr. Lukic's point is that the word "sent"
10 may not relate to an organizational unit but just a unit. That's a
11 question of interpretation of the document, Mr. Hannis.
12 What we're looking for, Mr. Adamovic, is an example if you can
13 think of one of a sent organizational unit.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An organizational unit cannot be
15 sent. Let me just explain this to you. In the seat of the ministry
16 there are organizational units called administrations and they exist
17 within all police specialty affairs. And outside of those organizational
18 units there are also branch organizational units, as we used to call
19 them, or in other words units that exist outside of the seat of the
20 ministry. Those units are called secretariats of the interior, and in
22 JUDGE BONOMY: We understand all that. But in that case give us
23 an example, please, of a sent unit.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say secretariats let me just
25 say that all kinds of police work is performed within a secretariat --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Just deal with my question. Give me an example of
2 a sent unit.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 35th Detachment of PJP, but
4 that's not an organizational unit.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it may not matter, Mr. Hannis, whether it's
6 an organizational unit or a unit. If it's a sent unit and it's under the
7 auspices of the staff, does it matter?
8 MR. HANNIS: Well, I'm not sure, but I had an indication that
9 perhaps there's some error in the translation in the document and maybe I
10 need to ask the witness to read out item number 2.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. Colonel, could you read out item number 2 and we'll see if the
14 translation we hear now is the same that's written in my English version.
15 A. "The task of the staff is to plan, organize, and direct the work
16 and engagement of organizational units of the ministry as well as sent
17 and attached units aimed at suppressing terrorism in the territory of
18 autonomous province of Kosovo
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. That clears it up a little bit for me.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it makes Mr. Lukic's point, I think. We
21 shall require CLSS to revise the translation of paragraph 2, and I think
22 we should have the whole of paragraph 2 revised.
23 MR. HANNIS: Yeah, I'm --
24 Q. While we're there --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, this is not a CLSS translation.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh.
2 Who translated this, Mr. Hannis?
3 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my understanding of how these were
4 done, this looks like a CLSS translation, but I stand to be corrected.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Even if it's not, that would be even better reason
6 for having it done now. So we shall require it to be done.
7 Mr. Hannis, you should remit this document to CLSS to translate
8 paragraph 2 of the decision.
9 MR. HANNIS: We will.
10 Q. And while we're hear, Colonel, could I just have you read the
11 next sentence then in case there's something I want to ask you about that
12 while we're here.
13 A. "In addition to that, the staff has a task also to plan,
14 organize, direct, and combine the work of organizational units of the
15 ministry in Kosovo and Metohija in carrying out more complex special
16 security tasks."
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. With regard to paragraph 16 in your statement
18 and planning I would like to show you Exhibit P3130. This is a -- these
19 are conclusions from a meeting of secretariat chiefs and police
20 detachment commanders from a meeting on the 2nd of November, 1998. And
21 I'd like to go to item number 10, I think it's page 3 of the English and
22 it's the last page in the B/C/S, I think it's the fourth page in the
23 B/C/S -- I'm sorry, it's page 3 of the English.
24 Can you see item number 10 on your screen? It says: "The MUP
25 staff in Pristina will now take on the role of planning and the
1 secretariats will have greater independence in carrying out their regular
2 duties ..."
3 Were you aware of this meeting and this conclusion that came out
4 of it?
5 A. Whether I attended this meeting is something you can see in the
6 minutes. I truly don't remember it myself. As for the conclusions,
7 since I attended the meeting, whether I read them out there at the
8 meeting or not, I really don't remember that. I suppose that I did.
9 Q. Well, do you know how things changed from November 1998 in terms
10 of the MUP staff taking on the role of planning from the secretariats?
11 A. This formulation is not clear to me. I don't know what planning
12 they have in mind because it says here that secretariats have greater
13 autonomy in carrying out regular tasks. So based on that I can't
14 conclude on the basis of what the analyst formulated this conclusion.
15 Q. Just to orient you in time this meeting would have been about a
16 week or ten days after the October Agreements were signed, you know,
17 after discussions between Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Holbrooke and General
18 Clark and General Naumann came and the OSCE-KVM mission was set up. Do
19 you recall -- look at item number 8 and it talks about: "In villages
20 with Serbian inhabitants, taking additional protection measures ..."
21 And the next sentence says: "Make sure that Serbs and members of
22 the reserve police squads don't misuse weapons," that they don't carry
23 weapons or show them in public in the presence of members of the mission.
24 And skipping one more sentence: "Tell them not to state the fact
25 that Serbs are armed and to explain this fact, if they must, using the
1 excuse that it's only members of the guard who are armed."
2 Did you know of this conclusion in this effort to keep the
3 mission from knowing about the arming of Serbs in Kosovo? Did you know
4 about that?
5 A. I did not know about that because the contact was a daily one and
6 members of the mission were present throughout the territory of Kosovo
7 and they had contact with secretariats, OUPs, and police stations.
8 Q. Let me move to a different item. You mention in paragraph 17
9 about being informed about the adoption of the plan to fight terrorism.
10 If you would have a look at Exhibit 6D798. I'll hand you a copy -- I can
11 hand you a hard copy if you don't have it. You'll see this is from a
12 meeting at the Pristina MUP on the 22nd of July, 1998, and I seem to
13 recall you said you were at this meeting -- yeah, I see your name in the
14 list of those present. Item number 3 on the agenda is: "Defining tasks
15 in the implementation of the Global Plan ..."
16 Is this where you first heard about the plan to fight terrorism,
17 at this meeting?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you see that General Djordjevic, General Stevanovic, and
20 General Lukic are all there. I understand from other evidence in this
21 case that there had been a meeting in Belgrade a couple of days earlier
22 where they -- those generals learned about this plan. Is that consistent
23 with what you knew about it or what you heard about it?
24 A. I don't have that information. When the generals arrived,
25 Generals Stevanovic and Djordjevic, we were informed to the extent
1 necessary that such a plan had been adopted and that it was to be
2 implemented by the police and the army. It was the plan for carrying out
3 anti-terrorist actions, and that it was adopted at the level of the
4 president of the country.
5 Q. Okay. That was my next question. This document seems to end
6 sort of in the middle. Three of the SUP chiefs speak and then there's
7 nothing further. Do you know why this document appears to be incomplete?
8 If you can look on the back of that page you will see it ends after the
9 Prizren SUP chief speaks and there's nothing further.
10 A. It is clear that it is incomplete, but I don't know what
12 Q. Okay. Do you know who normally took the minutes of those
14 A. While I was down there it was mostly Desimir Slovic, who was also
15 an analyst.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. In paragraph 18 of your statement you mention
17 seeing a VJ document, Exhibit P2808, which is dated the 16th of February,
18 1999, that talks about propose anti-terrorist actions in the same areas
19 that are set forth in the document 6D716 that you I think looked at
20 earlier which is dated the 19th of February, 1999, and on the heading it
21 says "MUP command." Do you remember looking at both those documents?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I think when you were on direct testimony Mr. Ivetic asked
24 you about that term "MUP command," you told us and you tell us in your
25 statement that as far as you know there was never any body, any group or
1 any body called the MUP command; is that correct?
2 A. I don't know that I spoke about that.
3 Q. In your statement you say, in paragraph 18: "A body called the
4 MUP command has never existed ..."
5 A. All right, all right, we did not understand each other.
6 Q. Okay. Could we look at Exhibit P1613. You refer to this in your
7 statement. I don't know if you have a copy of it there. I think
8 Mr. Ivetic showed you a copy. If you don't have it, I can give you one.
9 A. I do.
10 Q. And this is a document that is titled "MUP command." It has a
11 strictly confidential number 880-207 and it's dated 27th August 1998 and
12 we see that it's signed by General Pavkovic, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And this action called for in the Dobrodeljane sector involves
15 the 549th Motorised Brigade supporting the 10th MUP Squad or I'm not sure
16 if that's a correct pronunciation, and also the 1/9th MUP OD. Do you see
17 that in item number 5.1?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Do you know why the VJ General Pavkovic would be using the term
20 "MUP command" in an order in August 1998?
21 A. I cannot explain that. All I know is that the term MUP command
22 is something that I have never heard us use for as long as I've been in
24 Q. Well, let me ask you if in 1998 or 1999 while you were in Kosovo
25 if you ever saw or heard the term Joint Command or Joint Command for
1 Kosovo and Metohija?
2 A. In 1998 and 1999 while I was in Kosovo I did not see such a
4 Q. You never saw a document with the word "Joint Command" on it; is
5 that your testimony?
6 A. I don't remember seeing such a document.
7 Q. And you never heard the term used by anybody in 1998 or 1999 in
9 A. As for the term, I did hear about it but I never saw a document
10 using that term.
11 Q. Okay. Tell us when and how you heard of the term Joint Command.
12 A. Well, it's hard for me to pin-point the time. Even if I heard
13 the term and when I heard the term, that term didn't have any particular
14 meaning to me within my work at the staff nor in my contacts. I know
15 that I contacted the Pristina Corps. So this is the term that had no
16 weight as far as I was concerned and I wasn't interested in it.
17 Q. Well, if you can't pin-point the time can you pin-point the
18 circumstances, where you were and who you heard saying it?
19 A. It's hard to answer that question. It is possible that I heard
20 it when I went to visit people at the Pristina Corps, but I can't claim
21 with any certainty from whom I heard that term.
22 Q. And I was a little confused yesterday when Mr. Ackerman was
23 asking you about your involvement in conveying the VJ maps, map extracts,
24 regarding joint actions. That's work that you did not only during the
25 few days of the war while you were there, but you also did that in --
1 earlier in 1999 and in 1998, right?
2 A. I apologise. Perhaps I wasn't focused.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I didn't quite catch your question.
5 Q. Okay. The work you did in -- with Colonel Djakovic, you told us
6 was your main contact at the VJ. In receiving maps and map extracts
7 regarding joint anti-terrorist actions which you then passed along to the
8 MUP units that were going to be involved, you did that not only in 1999
9 during the war before you got injured, but you also did it earlier in
10 1999 and in 1998, right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. And is it your evidence that the only thing you received from the
13 VJ were extracts or maps and map extracts; you didn't have any orders,
14 any textual orders?
15 A. Yes, I received extracts.
16 Q. And no textual orders? You'll have to answer out loud.
17 A. No, not the textual part, no.
18 Q. Do you recall seeing whether any of those map extracts had the
19 word "Joint Command" on them?
20 A. I do not recall having seen that. I remember that in the left
21 corner it said either who approved this or whatever, and in the right one
22 there was again somebody's signature.
23 Q. Did you have occasion to follow the trial of Mr. Milosevic that
24 took place here and the Kosovo portion of that trial? Did you read about
25 it or watch it on TV?
1 A. I did not follow that trial at all.
2 Q. How about this trial, before coming here today did you read about
3 it or watch any of it?
4 A. I haven't been following this trial either.
5 Q. Before coming to testify did you have any conversation with
6 Colonel Mijatovic or Colonel Vucurevic or any of your former colleagues
7 from the MUP staff in 1998 and 1999?
8 A. I saw Colonel Mijatovic only once. As for Mr. Vucurevic, I never
9 saw him, never spoke to him.
10 Q. Did -- and did you have a chance to read General Lukic's
11 interview that he gave to the OTP investigators in May of 2002? Did you
12 see that before coming to testify?
13 A. No, I did not see that.
14 Q. So is your evidence that you were not aware that the issue of the
15 existence or not of a Joint Command in Kosovo and Metohija in 1998 and
16 1999 is something that's been a strongly contested issue in this case?
17 You didn't know about that? Nobody told you that?
18 A. I heard about that during the preparations.
19 Q. We've had some evidence in this case indicating that General
20 Lukic attended more than 50-some meetings of the Joint Command in Kosovo
21 in 1998 between July 22nd and the end of October of 1998. Were you not
22 aware that your boss was going to Joint Command meetings two or three
23 times a week, on average?
24 A. I knew that General Lukic went to some meetings. Now, what
25 meetings these were and what their content was, that's not something I
1 asked him about and he did not talk to me about that.
2 Q. Did you know who he was meeting with?
3 A. Well, the information I have is -- well, again I'm saying as far
4 as I know, that he went to some meetings. Was it to the Pristina Corps
5 or wherever, I don't know, where there were representatives of the army
6 and - if I can put it that way - representatives of some other state
8 Q. And you weren't aware that David Gajic from the DB was also
9 attending Joint Command meetings in Pristina in July and August of 1998?
10 A. No, I did not have that information.
11 Q. With regard to your job of forwarding the maps and excerpts to
12 MUP from the VJ, when did you first start doing that job? Was that
13 shortly after you arrived in July 1998?
14 A. No. That was certainly after the 22nd after that meeting that we
16 Q. Do you recall who assigned you to do that task?
17 A. As far as I can remember, the head of the staff.
18 Q. And did General Lukic tell you why you were chosen for that job?
19 A. Well, no, he didn't. There was no need for him to explain to me
20 why he had chosen me because there weren't that many of us on the staff.
21 Q. What instructions did he give you?
22 A. To go from time to time to Colonel Djakovic and to submit
23 information about the units that were in the territory of Kosovo
24 Metohija, all with a view to planning the implementation of
25 anti-terrorist actions.
1 Q. And you've told us I think that your primary contact in the VJ
2 was Colonel Djakovic, but you mention a second individual and I can't
3 recall his name now. Who else from the VJ did you sometimes deal with on
4 this matter?
5 A. I think, I think that his rank was that of lieutenant-colonel, it
6 was Lieutenant-Colonel Tesevic, they were in the same area, in the same
7 office, so I would see him there as well.
8 Q. Okay. Were you the only guy from MUP who was doing this job?
9 A. Well, I cannot say for sure whether somebody else perhaps went
10 sometimes. Sometimes I would go home to see my family, so I cannot say
11 whether in the meantime it was necessary for someone else to go.
12 Q. Okay. But between late July 1999 and March 29th -- late July
13 1998 and March 29th, 1999
14 work this was your job and nobody else was doing it, right? You were the
15 one who was picking up those map and map extracts and passing them on?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Did you keep any kind of a log or record book of what you
18 received and passed on?
19 A. No, no, records were not kept with regard to that matter, none
21 Q. Okay. So there was no tracking system in case something got
22 lost, there was no way to go back and see when you had received it and
23 when you had passed it off; is that right?
24 A. No, really, we did not keep any records of that.
25 Q. One of the questions I think Mr. Ackerman asked you and that I'm
1 curious about too is if the Pristina Corps -- if the VJ is writing these
2 orders and drawing up these maps for these joint actions, how did they
3 know which MUP units to put in the map and the extract? How did they
4 know what PJP detachment or whether the SAJ was available or whether it
5 was going to be some PJP company from Pristina? How did the VJ get that
6 information to incorporate in their plans and their maps?
7 A. Well, it was precisely my task to submit that kind of
8 information. My first contact with Djakovic had to do with me having
9 already given information about the units that were in the field on the
10 detachments, since the detachments were mostly in the same locations. So
11 Colonel Djakovic was kept abreast, and in a specific action I would just
12 go to confirm whether it was that detachment, or rather, if the Pristina
13 Corps had planned on more forces, then we would see who else could become
14 involved as well.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: When you say that you kept no record or log-book,
16 did you keep a copy of the extract map which you had passed on?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not copies either. From the
18 Pristina Corps we got excerpts from maps in an envelope for the units
19 that were supposed to take part in that activity.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: And did you open the envelope?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no need for that because
22 we were not involved in that.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
24 MR. HANNIS:
25 Q. So how did you know to whom to deliver what was in the envelope?
1 A. On the envelope it says who the envelope was supposed to go to,
2 what unit, that is.
3 Q. So was there a separate envelope with a separate map for each MUP
4 unit that was going to be engaged in an action? Is that how it worked?
5 A. If it is a broader action, then the unit would only get an
6 excerpt for its own area, the area that it is supposed to take part in,
7 because the map as a whole is bigger and several units are involved in
8 the action. So a unit only gets its own excerpt for its own part.
9 Q. Well, for example -- sorry --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: On you go, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS:
12 Q. For example, we've seen some VJ or Joint Command orders for
13 rather large actions or operations that sometimes involved many units of
14 both VJ and MUP. I don't have one right at hand, but some that would
15 involve perhaps ten or more separate MUP units. And are you saying that
16 there would be ten separate envelopes for each of those ten separate
17 units regarding that one action and MUP did not receive an overall map
18 showing where all its units were going to be involved, you only got ten
19 separate little extracts. Is that right?
20 A. We would only get excerpts for the units that took part in the
21 action. I think that in practice there weren't that many units involved,
22 but I don't know the exact number. There were those involving larger and
23 smaller number of participants.
24 Q. Colonel --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you pursuing that? No.
1 MR. HANNIS: I'm going to a related area, but if you want to
2 touch on that --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: No.
4 You will remember yesterday we saw one of these maps with little
5 markings on the map which were said to be ways of identifying the
6 location of any unit at any time. If the MUP staff didn't have a copy of
7 the map how would you know when reference was made to these numbers and
8 indications on the map the location of the particular units of the PJP?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These maps probably pertained to
10 the time when I was not down there. While I was there, there were no
11 such maps.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, we've heard evidence that one important
13 function of the MUP staff was to provide emergency assistance when
14 required, and identifying where that assistance might be required seemed
15 to be of some importance. How would you be able to do that if you didn't
16 have a copy of the map being used in the particular action?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the staff did not participate
18 in these activities regarding the implementation of actions. It is
19 correct that at the time when actions were being implemented out in the
20 field General Djordjevic was usually there or Obrad Stevanovic, both of
21 them or one of the two. Now, what it was that they were doing there is
22 something that I'm really not aware of.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
24 MR. HANNIS:
25 Q. And regarding General Stevanovic and General Djordjevic, what way
1 would they have of knowing where the various MUP units were deployed in
2 these joint actions or would they have any way of knowing?
3 A. Well, if I can put it this way, they did not have to report to me
4 how it was that they received their knowledge about all of this. I
5 really do not know who they were in contact with. That is to say that
6 that is beyond me since these are higher-ranking officers.
7 Q. Fair enough. Let me read you something that Colonel Mijatovic
8 said when he was here and I'll ask you if that is correct. This is from
9 the transcript at page 22441 through 442, and he said: "Depending on the
10 area in which an anti-terrorist activity was being carried out, he," and
11 he was referring to you, Adamovic, "provided information as to which MUP
12 units were in the area so they might be reckoned with and become part of
13 the plan. There was no need to take any decisions. There was no special
14 need to have any decisions because the unit was there, was in the area,
15 and the unit would now be involved."
16 And then I asked him: "Well, did it work then that the VJ first
17 told Adamovic, I need 300 men? And Adamovic said, These 300 are
18 available. Is that how it worked?"
19 And he said: "In principle, yes. They didn't say later on it
20 has to be this or that detachment, but they said Dusko Adamovic says we
21 can have this or that unit in the area that can get involved, and they,"
22 meaning the army, "can go on with planning."
23 And I asked him if that's how it worked in reality and he said:
25 Is that correct, would you agree with that?
1 A. Well, the essence is that when I went to the Pristina Corps that
2 I gave information about the units that were in the area and that could
3 take part in activities.
4 Q. How did that work when you went to the Pristina Corps? Did they
5 show you on the map where they were planning to engage in some activity
6 and you had -- you had some map or some book of your own where you could
7 look and say, Oh, the 37th Detachment is right there, you can use them?
8 How did it work or did you know in your head where everybody was? How
9 did that work?
10 A. When I'd come to the corps the map was already there, or rather,
11 the map was already being worked on, so I knew where the units were since
12 there weren't that many locations there. So already in advance I know
13 where it is that these units are, I mean in global terms the area where
14 they are. And then the Pristina Corps would continue its activities in
15 terms of rounding off this job, if I can put it that way, and then when I
16 come again the map excerpt had already been made and forwarded further.
17 Q. Well, I've seen in some of the orders that there's maybe a pretty
18 small MUP contingent tasked for a job, for example, a company, maybe a
19 company. How would the VJ know which company of a particular detachment
20 was available for the job? You might have three or four companies in a
21 detachment, right, and how would the VJ know which one was taking a rest
22 or depleted from the previous action, et cetera? Do you understand that
24 A. I understand you. I never gave information about a specific
25 company from a specific detachment. The only thing that could happen was
1 that within the implementation of certain actions the Pristina Corps
2 would suggest that a company be involved of the 124th Intervention
3 Brigade; and in every secretariat there was one respectively except for
4 Pristina where there were two. So these were the companies, but Colonel
5 Djakovic knew that as well.
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, is this an appropriate time for the
8 JUDGE BONOMY: It is.
9 This has been a lengthy cross-examination because of the
10 questions to be asked by other counsel. Some of that must have been of
11 assistance to you, Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: It was, Your Honour, and I've tried to eliminate the
13 matters that Mr. Ackerman and Mr. Cepic covered that were originally on
14 my list, but I still have substantial amount of materials I think this
15 witness is in the best position to help --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you to get to the end today?
17 MR. HANNIS: I'm going to do my best.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
19 Mr. Adamovic, we need another break at this stage for half an
20 hour. Could you again leave the courtroom with the usher and we'll see
21 you at 6.00.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Colonel, I'd like to show you an exhibit and I don't think you
4 have a copy, I'll give you a hard copy of this one, this is P1428, it's a
5 Pristina Corps command decision from the 14th of August, 1998, on
6 breaking up Siptar terrorists in the Slup and Voksa villages sector.
7 You'll see under item number 1 -- I'm sorry, item number 2, point 1 on
8 the first page, task for units, the battle group 15-3 is to support the
9 attack of the 8th MUP Detachment in the Djakovica PJP company. How
10 would -- how would the VJ know about the availability of the Djakovica
11 PJP company to assist in an action like this? Would that information
12 come from you?
13 A. As for the carrying out of actions, officers of the police and
14 the army out in the field had daily contact and in this particular case
15 when it comes to the 8th Detachment and the Djakovica PJP company it is
16 certain that the military commanders received documents via their own
17 chain, documents pertaining to the action, because they took part in the
18 action just like the police units did.
19 Q. Okay. But I think that's true for all the joint actions,
20 correct? All the joint --
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. All the joint ones. The Army of Yugoslavia would receive it down
24 their own chain of command and then the police would receive it as I have
25 explained to you.
1 Q. Well -- so how would the VJ know to send through you an excerpt
2 map to the Djakovica PJP company? Wouldn't they have had to receive
3 information from you beforehand that that company was available for the
4 planned action?
5 A. Well, prior to that I gave information to the Pristina Corps and
6 then the documents were drafted.
7 Q. You don't remember this one specifically, do you?
8 A. I don't remember, I really don't, since I didn't take part in the
9 planning, not in a single segment of it except for what I did.
10 Q. If you would go to the last page and it's page 3 of the English
11 and the last page in B/C/S, item number 6 is command and communications.
12 It says: "Combat operations will be commanded by the Joint Command for
13 Kosovo and Metohija."
14 I take it from your earlier answer then that you never saw this
15 document in 1998 where it has a reference to the Joint Command; is that
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And on the last page we see this order signed by Colonel Vladimir
19 Lazarevic, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let me give you another -- a related document from August 1998,
22 with the help of the usher I'll trade you. This is Exhibit P1427 from a
23 few days earlier, the 10th of August, 1998, signed on the last page,
24 you'll see this one's signed by General Pavkovic. It's a decision on the
25 joint engagement of MUP and VJ forces, and item number 2.1 and 2.2 make
1 reference to the SAJ. Did you also have the knowledge and information
2 about where SAJ units were located for making determinations about what
3 MUP units were available to assist in areas where actions were planned by
4 the VJ?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what was your source of that information? How did you know
8 A. SAJ, just like the police detachments, was sent to Kosovo and
9 Metohija in order to carry out anti-terrorist actions.
10 Q. I understand that, but how did you know where they were? Did you
11 get that information from Colonel Trajkovic or where did you get that
12 information from?
13 A. The movement of units was monitored.
14 Q. By whom? By you personally?
15 A. Since planned actions were carried out, it was known which unit
16 takes part in which action. Normally when an action was over or after
17 some time another one would start, that's how it was.
18 Q. Yeah, but on a day or a couple days before August 10th, when this
19 decision was made for this action to include SAJ units, how did you know
20 where the SAJ was in order to be able to advise the VJ that the SAJ is in
21 that area and you could use them ? How would you know that?
22 A. It was known where the SAJ was stationed whenever it was not
23 involved in an action. Just like all other units, once they complete a
24 task in a certain area, they withdraw, if we may call it that, to the
25 location where they were before.
1 Q. Well, you say it was known. My question is: How did you know
2 that? Did you receive a daily report? Where were you getting that
3 information from and able to -- in order to be able to tell the VJ?
4 A. I did not have a specific information and I didn't need it. This
5 activity was underway from the 25th of July and it went on.
6 Q. So when this activity began on the 25th of July, I take it you
7 know where the SAJ was; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And between the 25th of July and the 10th of August, I gather
10 that they participated in some other actions. How did you know where
11 they were between the 25th of July and the 10th of August? You must have
12 received some sort of updated information from someone.
13 A. Updated information was not needed. I'm not saying that from
14 time to time certain officers wouldn't stop by the staff or establish
15 some sort of contact, but if the SAJ was stationed in Pristina, say when
16 not involved in an action, whenever the action was over say in Podujevo
17 or elsewhere, they would go back to Pristina.
18 Q. Okay. You --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: So are you saying then that immediately before the
20 10th of August they were in Pristina?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't claim for this specific
22 case that they were in Pristina, I can't remember, but there were cases
23 when actions continued. So I'm not claiming that they were in Pristina
24 on that particular occasion, I just don't remember.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: So if they were not in Pristina, how would you
1 find out where they actually were?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could have been either in
3 their base or out there performing an action. If they were carrying out
4 a planned action, then it was known where they were; that is to say they
5 did not have some other tasks.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: And if they were carrying out a planned action,
7 how was it known that they would be available for this action?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Pristina Corps kept track of
9 actions underway, both because of the police forces and the army forces
10 because those forces could not be at two different places at the same
12 JUDGE BONOMY: So in the end of the day you're saying that your
13 input into identifying the location and availability of the SAJ was zero?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said. I repeat,
15 they were located in Kosovo and Metohija and they had been sent there in
16 order to carry out anti-terrorist actions. If, for example, at the
17 Pristina Corps it was requested that the SAJ should participate, then
18 they would, and in that case I would provide information and in that case
19 in the Pristina Corps they would include them in their plans just like
20 all other units participating in any other action.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: And what is the information that you would
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would provide information only
24 about units which were located in a certain area, that is to say that I
25 did not propose that, for example, SAJ should be sent to Pec.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand. So you would tell the Colonel
2 Djakovic where particular parts of the SAJ were? Have I understood that
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: How did you find out where they were?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that they were either out
7 there performing a task or they were in their base.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I ask you the question again: How did you
9 find out where they were? Just please answer the question.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once an activity was over in a
11 certain area the secretariats would inform the staff or sometimes it
12 happened that officers of -- from the units would occasionally contact,
13 make contact.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's taken us five minutes to get to that
15 and that's the question you were asked by Mr. Hannis. Please try to
16 answer the questions you're being asked.
17 Mr. Hannis.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I lost my place. I think that was my
19 last question about that one.
20 Q. Would you look on the last page and tell us to whom that document
21 was sent. Well, let me speed it up. The second one --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Just give us a moment, Mr. Hannis.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 Mr. Hannis.
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
1 Q. Colonel, I would tell you that item number 6 of this one also
2 indicates that combat operations will be commanded by the Joint Command,
3 and it's sent to -- at the very end you'll see it's sent to the Pristina
4 Corps command and to the Republic of Serbia MUP PJP command. Do you know
5 who that would be in August 1998? Who would be the PJP command?
6 A. What I know is that the command of the PJP of the MUP of Serbia
7 did not exist in Kosovo. I see that this document was drafted in
8 Djakovica. I had no occasion to see it before and it would be difficult
9 for me to comment.
10 Q. Well, let me ask you if you were at the MUP staff and this
11 document came in from the VJ addressed to the MUP PJP command, who would
12 you pass it on to?
13 A. It's a difficult question. The command of the PJP of the MUP was
14 envisioned once the -- once PJP units of the MUP were planned. So it
15 existed in plans as a command, but it was never made operational, it
16 never started functioning. At one point in time there existed also a
17 commander of the PJP; that's why it's difficult for me to give you a --
18 an opinion as to whether they planned to deliver this to somebody and
19 when and how.
20 Q. Well, you were a member of the MUP staff in Kosovo in 1998 and
21 you were involved in sort of passing on orders or decision maps regarding
22 joint actions involving PJP. There must be somebody that you would have
23 gone to see about this. Who was the highest-ranking person in Kosovo
24 dealing with PJP in 1998?
25 A. I can't say that there was a specific person in Kosovo that was
1 in charge of dealing with the PJP. I told you what -- who the people
2 were who were located in Kosovo, both members of the staff and those who
3 were not. When it comes to this logistical support we, people from the
4 staff, got involved in it. And when there were events taking place on
5 the ground, I don't have full information as to how that transpired.
6 Q. Okay. Let me read you something from the OTP interview of
7 General Lukic related to this question. This is Exhibit P948. This is
8 the combined B/C/S, English version of that interview at page 53, and the
9 preceding question from the investigator to General Lukic was: "Were you
10 controlling the PJP?"
11 And he said: "All police units which were there had a primary
12 role, primary task, which was curbing terrorism. The task of the staff,
13 the headquarters, was to coordinate the work of these units."
14 Would you agree with that, was that the task of the MUP staff to
15 coordinate the work of those units combatting terrorism?
16 A. I don't know whether that would be an appropriate term to
17 describe what the staff did, if we take into account all the things that
18 we enumerated, all the things that the staff did then one could say that
19 this is correct, that that's how it was.
20 Q. And that's consistent with part of item number 2 in Exhibit
21 P1505, that order or decision establishing a MUP staff to combat
22 terrorism, 16 June 1998
23 staff was to do was to coordinate those units in complex security
24 actions, right?
25 A. We didn't coordinate that activity in that manner.
1 Q. Okay. Let me continue on with this answer. General Lukic says:
2 "And speaking of this, the special police units, PJP, had dual
3 responsibility, one was to the commander of the PJP units and the other
4 one was to the Chief of Staff."
5 And the investigator said: "And who had primacy over what they
6 did, was it something that you," General Lukic, "you had to agree
7 together or was Stevanovic able to instruct them or were you able to
8 instruct them?"
9 And the answer was: "As of mid-July," this is 1998, "until the
10 end of September, beginning of October that year, I was in more or less
11 permanent company of Mr. Djordjevic and Mr. Stevanovic, they were always
12 with me, in the hierarchy structure they are by all means above the Chief
13 of Staff because they are ministers. That is why I say that they had
14 parallel responsibility in performing their task."
15 Would you agree with General Lukic in that description about his
16 role and General Stevanovic's role vis-a-vis the PJP in 1998? Would you
17 agree or would you disagree?
18 A. I didn't listen to this attentively all the way until the end,
19 but let me say this: Generals Stevanovic and Djordjevic were both in
20 Kosovo, and as I have told you, they would frequently go to locations
21 where the units were. We from the staff were less on the move, if I may
22 say so, were less mobile or we didn't really go out in the field or we
23 went seldom.
24 Q. The transcript is on the screen in front of you in both English
25 and B/C/S. Did you not understand my question was: Did you agree with
1 General Lukic where he's saying in essence that the PJP had dual
2 responsibility, one was to the commander of the PJP units and the other
3 was to the Chief of Staff? And I take that to mean Stevanovic and Lukic.
4 Would you agree with that or not?
5 A. Who do you have in mind when you say "Chief of Staff"? Because
6 to my knowledge we did not have a Chief of Staff. When it comes to PJP
7 units it is true that commanders of detachments were responsible for the
8 tasks --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, Mr. Hannis put his question on the
10 basis that that is a reference to General Lukic. Just accept that for
11 the moment. We'll determine in due course whether it is. Accepting
12 that, do you agree with the statement?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can just read this.
14 It's hard for me to formulate this. At any rate, Obrad
15 Stevanovic covered PJP units or in other words, he was the commander of
16 PJP units until 1997, and it is certain that he did have contact with
17 officers on the ground, more so than General Lukic who was in the staff
18 in Pristina. I hope that this answer is to your satisfaction.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. Well, it's not to my satisfaction. I asked you if you agreed or
21 disagreed. Can you not answer it or do you just not want to answer it?
22 A. It's not whether I want to or do not want to. Can you please put
23 shorter questions to me so that I can give you very specific answers
24 because I presented to you the essence. So it's difficult for me to
25 answer in this manner. When it comes to hierarchy, now that I'm looking
1 at this text, in the sense of hierarchy they are above the head of staff
2 given the roles that they have, chief of the sector and assistant
4 Q. Well, let me ask you one that may be easier. Would you agree
5 that General Lukic in 1998 was in a better position than you to know what
6 his relationship as Chief of Staff or head of the MUP staff with the PJP
8 A. Well, it is only natural that he knows better what it was like.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Before we leave this document, P1427, I have
10 one last question. Item 2.1 and 2.2 make reference to the 2nd MUP
11 Detachment and the 9th MUP Detachment. You told us how the units that
12 came from Serbia
13 came to Kosovo in 1998 Colonel Djakovic sort of re-assigned them
14 designators and they got digits 1 through 10. And as I understand, you
15 and Colonel Djakovic knew the code or the key as to which one was which.
16 Is that right so far?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember now what was the designator for the 2nd MUP
19 Detachment in Kosovo? What was its two-digit designator in Serbia
20 outside of Kosovo?
21 A. The 2nd Detachment I think that was the 36th Detachment.
22 Q. And the 9th, if you know?
23 A. The 9th I think was the 37th.
24 Q. Was that written down in a document somewhere that you had?
25 A. I do not know whether I saw that.
1 Q. Okay. Now, let me go back to your work in passing along the VJ
2 orders to MUP units. Colonel Mijatovic told us that in late April
3 1999 - and I'm reading from the transcript at page 22196 - he said:
4 "After the order on subordination was received, in addition to these
5 excerpts from maps we got the textual part of the task in the form of
7 I guess you were gone by then, so you wouldn't have seen any of
8 those; is that right? You were gone from Kosovo by late April 1999,
10 A. I left at the end of March, yes, yes, I didn't see that.
11 Q. Okay. And Colonel Zivaljevic was here and testified about how he
12 received maps, and he said there were a couple of ways. From the
13 transcript page 24903 he said: "When the conditions allowed I would stop
14 by the Pristina staff, they would prepare in envelopes documents for me,
15 and this is how I would take those documents sometimes. And sometimes
16 when I wasn't able to go I would send a courier and the courier would go
17 and bring back the envelope that was intended for me."
18 And he said that you were the one who distributed documents. Is
19 that right, do you recall distributing some of these map or map excerpts
20 to Colonel Zivaljevic in person and by courier?
21 A. Well, I cannot say anything specific about Colonel Zivaljevic,
22 but in principle I did that.
23 Q. Okay. And Colonel Mijatovic told us regarding the maps that were
24 received from the VJ at page 22196, he said: "In 1998 for every
25 anti-terrorist action that had been planned the staff received excerpts
1 from maps where there were markings."
2 Now, I understood your earlier answer to say that you received
3 these things already in the envelopes. How would Colonel Mijatovic know
4 that there were markings on the map if you just got envelopes with the
5 maps inside?
6 A. So I went to the Pristina Corps and when I took the maps of
7 course I saw them during the preparation while they were working on them,
8 and primarily it was the excerpt and it said what unit this related to.
9 Q. Okay. So then you went back to MUP and you prepared envelopes
10 with the addressee MUP units on them and put the maps inside the
11 envelopes; is that how it worked?
12 A. No. As far as I can remember, already on the envelopes it was
13 written what unit this related to.
14 Q. Okay. And that was done at the VJ, at the Pristina Corps
15 command? You will have to answer out loud.
16 A. Yes, yes, yes.
17 Q. And did you write those addresses on the envelope or did Djakovic
18 or somebody from the VJ do it?
19 A. As far as I can remember, it was already written who it was for,
20 for what unit I mean, not on an individual basis.
21 Q. You said when Mr. Ackerman was asking you some questions, he
22 tried to suggest that in your passing on these orders that you were in
23 essence ordering subordinate units of the MUP. And you said at page
24 24974 you said: "It cannot be put that way. I was not issuing orders.
25 The basis for police action was the plan that had been adopted for
1 carrying out anti-terrorist actions."
2 Now, you're referring to the global plan that we saw referred to
3 in that 22 July meeting; is that the basis?
4 A. Well, that plan was the basis for carrying out anti-terrorist
5 actions and other orders, instructions.
6 Q. Did you ever see a written version of that plan?
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
8 MR. LUKIC: I think that the answer was not finished because the
9 answer was: And other orders and instructions were not issued by me.
10 So -- and it can be checked on the tape.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: We would like a revised translation --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Perhaps the witness can
13 repeat his answer because he did trail off at the end.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but it's much more important that we get the
15 spontaneous original answer so we will ask for a revised translation of
16 page 82, 4 and 5.
17 Please continue, Mr. Hannis.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
19 Q. At page 24979 Mr. Ackerman suggested that you were basically a
20 post office box in your description of how you were passing these on, and
21 you said: "I explained how I established contacts and what it was that I
22 told Colonel Djakovic. The outlines of the maps would most frequently be
23 done before my arrival."
24 I wasn't clear on what you -- what it was that you told Djakovic.
25 Are you referring to giving him information about what MUP units were
1 available in particular areas? Is that what you meant there?
2 A. I meant the units that were in these areas, of course before
3 being involved in that particular task so that he could involve them in
4 his plan.
5 Q. You said, also to Mr. Ackerman I think, in discussing that
6 exhibit, P1505, the decision to establish a MUP staff for suppression of
7 terrorism and item number 2 about planning and organizing and managing
8 the activities and use of organizational units you said: "The reality
9 looked differently."
10 How was the reality different in Kosovo in 1998 from what's
11 described in that exhibit we looked at earlier?
12 A. As far as organizational units are concerned of the ministry, or
13 rather, the secretariats that were in Kosovo, if I can put it this way
14 they retained all their functions and carried out all their other tasks
15 like other secretariats, like fighting crime and everything else.
16 Q. Okay. Related to that, Mr. Ackerman asked you about: "Why would
17 the minister order these kinds of things that were contained in paragraph
18 2 and 3 of that decision if he didn't mean it?"
19 And you said: "It was difficult to comment. And if we compare
20 that with the practice it's obvious that these tasks are not good."
21 Why were these tasks not good? What was the problem with these
22 tasks listed in paragraph 2 and 3 of this exhibit? What do you mean?
23 A. Well, I don't understand that the minister put in that document
24 the obligation of the staff to organize and plan and direct the work of
25 the secretariats. I don't know what he meant, how the staff could do
1 that, take over the role of the secretariats. Would that be it? I mean,
2 that would not be possible. The staff did not have the capacity to take
3 over the directing of these secretariats and that they would be some kind
4 of organizational unit of the staff and when we know that the staff was
5 not an organizational unit in its own right so it is hard for me to
6 understand that, at least for me it's hard.
7 Q. Well, you said that before, that there seemed to be a problem
8 with shortage of staff to do what's described here, but in this document
9 right above item number 2 it says: "Other members of the ministry may be
10 appointed to the staff on the request of the head of staff."
11 Did you or other members of the staff suggest to General Lukic
12 that he should request more staff and order to carry out the task
13 contemplated for MUP staff? You didn't do that, did you?
14 A. I'm not aware that we talked about that and that that was
16 Q. Now, I think you were asked a couple questions about the reserve
17 police stations. You were aware of the creation of those things in
18 Kosovo in 1998?
19 A. I heard about the creation, but I did not work on that, another
20 officer did.
21 Q. Was that Captain Pesic?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And I think there was somebody else sent down from Belgrade
24 assist on that. Was there a Colonel Stanojevic or ...
25 A. Well, he was down there, he was not a colonel, and -- he was a
1 general, rather, General Momcilo Stojanovic, but as far as I know he was
2 sent on some other assignments, of course apart from the staff, not in
3 the staff.
4 Q. You're not aware of him assisting with matters regarding the
5 reserve police stations?
6 A. Well, I don't know what he was assisting with and his role was
7 not fully clear, to me at least, because he dealt with the procurement of
8 apartments, not the actual allocation of apartments but procurement.
9 Q. Well, let me hand you another document, this is Exhibit P3121.
10 These are the minutes of a meeting on the 28th of July at the MUP in
11 Pristina, and Minister Stojiljkovic attended along with the head of his
12 office, General Markovic, General Lukic, and other members of the staff,
13 I see you're listed here. I think you told us you recall attending this
14 meeting and as a matter of fact you were listed as speaking on page 4 of
15 the English, I think it's page 4 in the B/C/S. Mr. Cepic asked you some
16 of these questions about the armoured vehicles, et cetera. I have a
17 question for you on that. You say: "We equipped police units with
18 infantry weapons and weapons systems."
19 What kind of weapons were you talking about there?
20 A. If we're talking about small arms, as we called them, these are
21 smaller calibres up to 7.9 millimetres, if it can be put that way and --
22 Q. Okay -- I'm sorry, did you have something else to say?
23 A. And when referring to artillery pieces then it's the mortars.
24 Q. Okay. If you could go to page 8 in your B/C/S, it's page 7 of
25 the English, and if you could find for me, Colonel, about a little bit
1 more than half way down Captain Pesic is speaking at this meeting. Do
2 you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. He says: "We formed 243 reserve police stations. Weapons have
5 been issued to 54.683 persons, MUP issued some 12.000, Yugoslav Army
6 issued weapons to 34.000, and when all of this is finished about 60.000
7 persons will have been issued weapons."
8 Do you remember that being discussed at this meeting, you were
9 aware of the arming of these reserve police stations and individuals?
10 A. Well, I don't remember whether this was mentioned at that
11 meeting, but obviously this activity lasted --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last word.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you repeat the end of your answer there,
14 please, Mr. Adamovic, it was not picked up by the interpreter.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that it was obvious that
16 this activity had taken place earlier on as well.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. Thank you. If you could read at the very bottom of your page,
19 and it's on page 8 of the English, where General Lukic is speaking he
20 says: "We are arming citizens in towns and plans for defending towns
21 have been drawn up. Chiefs of secretariats have the duty to organize the
22 defence of towns in agreement with the Yugoslav Army, reserve police
23 stations, and other bodies."
24 Did you have any knowledge of or role in drawing up these plans
25 for defending towns?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And where General Lukic says that the chiefs of the secretariats
3 have a duty to organize defence and agreement with the army reserve
4 police stations and other bodies, do you know what the other bodies
5 refers to there?
6 A. If what is meant here are plans that were made, that are made,
7 defence plans as we call them, then what is envisaged are possible
8 situations and, if we can put it that way, forces that are required.
9 These are the so-called war plans that are made in all the secretariats
10 and at all levels. That's how it was done, if I can put it that way, in
11 the days of the former Yugoslavia
12 Q. Okay. I'm not sure you answered my question, though. Do you
13 know what other bodies he was referring to? We've heard talk about civil
14 protection, civil defence, we've seen a reference to some -- we've seen a
15 reference in some VJ combat orders to armed non-Siptar population. Do
16 you know what he's referring to here when he says "other bodies"?
17 A. Well, I -- other structures. I don't understand, unless it's the
18 local self government. I don't know. I wouldn't want to guess.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other structures are obviously some
22 organs, not individuals.
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I know I said I would do my best to
24 finish by 7.00, but I think I have about 20 minutes more after 7.00.
25 It's taken me longer to get some answers than I anticipated.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, see what you can do in your five minutes,
3 Mr. Hannis.
4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And we'll look at the position tomorrow.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
7 Q. And on the last page of that document, Colonel, Mr. Cepic asked
8 you about the remark of Minister Stojiljkovic about commanding is better.
9 I want you to pick up from there. It says: "Lieutenant-General Rade
10 Markovic will be in Prizren to help."
11 In this time-period, July 1998, do you know what General Rade
12 Markovic's position was in the MUP?
13 A. He was the chief of the state security sector.
14 Q. Had he already replaced Mr. Stanisic that early? I thought that
15 didn't take place until later.
16 A. I cannot say for sure. I think that he had already become that
17 by then.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: What was the position he held before he was chief
19 of the state security?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, I think he
21 came from the position of the chief of the secretariat in Belgrade
22 think that's the way it was.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
24 MR. HANNIS:
25 Q. And then Minister Stojiljkovic goes on to say: "You should plan
1 activities of the PJP in advance with chiefs of SUPs and hold a meeting
2 on this."
3 Who is he addressing there? He must be addressing you on the MUP
4 staff, right?
5 A. He's addressing all the attendees.
6 Q. Okay. Well, apart from the minister and his head of office,
7 General Markovic, General Lukic, we see you and other staff members and
8 we see, I think, one, two, three, four SUP chiefs. So that must mean
9 General Lukic and the rest of you on the staff, right?
10 A. I don't think so.
11 Q. Okay. And he says: "You should make somebody at the staff level
12 responsible for dealing with discipline of police members."
13 Who he's talking to there?
14 A. Obviously the staff or the head of staff or -- he's addressing
15 everyone, but this seems to show that it's the staff that's supposed to
16 do that.
17 Q. And after this meeting in July 1998 do you know what steps were
18 taken to have somebody at the staff level responsible for the discipline
19 of police officers or police members?
20 A. Well, I don't know which one of us was in charge of that
21 specifically. At any rate, I know that at all meetings that were
22 organized at the staff this was discussed and orders were issued as far
23 as discipline was concerned, professionalism, lawfulness on the part of
24 the members of the police.
25 Q. Okay. And Judge Bonomy asked you earlier about did you possibly
1 consider yourself to be number two in the staff under General Lukic. And
2 you said you could not consider yourself number two because you knew who
3 number two was. Who was number two during the time you were there in
4 your view?
5 A. As for number two, at that time there wasn't one since Mijatovic
6 came a few days after that.
7 Q. So is he the one you considered number two during the time you
8 were there?
9 A. No, no. I didn't pay attention to these ten days or whatever, so
10 I considered Mijatovic to be this number two. That is why there was this
11 slip of the tongue.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, is this an appropriate time to break?
14 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be if I understood that answer. Perhaps
15 someone will clarify it later, but it's -- you would expect from the
16 previous answer that the question you asked would get a one-word answer,
17 Mr. Hannis but --
18 MR. HANNIS: Yeah.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Hopes exist simply to be dashed.
20 All right. We have to finish our session for the day at this
21 stage. Mr. Adamovic, I'm afraid you'll have to return again tomorrow to
22 hopefully complete your evidence at that stage; that will be in this
23 courtroom at 2.15 tomorrow. Please again bear in mind what I said about
24 lack of communication with anyone about the evidence in this case and
25 return here ready to resume at 2.15 tomorrow. Now please leave the
1 courtroom with the usher.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
5 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.