1 Thursday, 10 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Sainovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm sorry we're late,
7 but the earlier case had to continue a little longer to complete its
8 business. We can now continue with the cross-examination of
9 Mr. Adamovic.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: As I said to you yesterday, the solemn declaration
14 that you gave at the beginning of your evidence continues to apply until
15 your evidence is completed.
16 Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: DUSKO ADAMOVIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
21 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. There were --
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. -- a couple of things from yesterday I wanted to try and clear up
24 with you. One of them had to do with the map excerpts that you would get
25 from the Pristina Corps command for further distribution. Yesterday at
1 page 25067 Judge Bonomy had asked you a question about whether you opened
2 the envelopes that you got at the Pristina Corps, and you said: "No need
3 for that."
4 And then about 20 pages later at 25085 I had asked you how it was
5 that Colonel Mijatovic knew to say that there were markings on the maps
6 if you were receiving them in closed envelopes. And you explained that
7 you saw the maps at the Pristina Corps during their preparation. My
8 question is: When you were at the Pristina Corps did you have any input
9 in the process of those maps being prepared before they went into the
11 A. I was not involved in the drafting of the maps, if I may say so.
12 There was a large map on which the units were shown movements of
13 activities and so on and excerpts were made from that map, that is to say
14 copies were made for the units that were to participate in that activity.
15 Q. And who physically put the map excerpts inside the envelopes, was
16 that you or somebody from Pristina Corps?
17 A. Once I gave information about the units that were to participate
18 I would go back to the staff; then later on when maps were completed,
19 when excerpts were completed, they would invite me to come over and take
21 Q. Okay. So I take it from that that somebody at Pristina Corps
22 must have put them into the envelopes, right?
23 A. That's correct. They had already been prepared. They were
24 copied there later after the documents were produced.
25 Q. So did Mijatovic know about the markings on the map because you
1 told him about it?
2 A. I'm not sure what markings you have in mind.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, could you start your answer again,
5 please, the interpreter did not catch it.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Mr. Mijatovic,
7 and if so on which occasion, was able to see one of those maps since
8 there were a number of actions and one would come to an end and another
9 one would begin subsequently, so ...
10 MR. HANNIS:
11 Q. A related question I have to the maps is yesterday I think at
12 page 25073 you told us that the officers in the field from both the MUP
13 and the VJ had daily contact, and we understood that the VJ commanders in
14 the field were receiving their copies of the map excerpts. Wouldn't it
15 have been just as simple for the VJ commanders to provide copies of the
16 map excerpts to their MUP colleagues in the field rather than having them
17 distributed through you?
18 A. Well, I don't know why this was done in this way.
19 Q. I have a few questions for you just following up about the Joint
20 Command. You mentioned you hadn't seen any --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, I hope this isn't in addition to what
22 you had planned for today because your 20 minutes is rigid.
23 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: So you decide on your priorities.
25 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour.
1 Q. You mentioned having heard the word Joint Command. On the 5th of
2 November, 1998, there was a meeting at the ministry staff in Pristina
3 where President Milutinovic spoke and you're listed as attending that
4 meeting. I will tell you that in that meeting he spoke of a meeting that
5 had occurred a few days before and he said: "With regard to the Yugoslav
6 Army and police everything will stay the same as it has been up until
7 now, a Joint Command, VJ units will not withdraw, and police forces have
8 only been reduced by the number already withdrawn."
9 Do you recall hearing President Milutinovic mention the Joint
10 Command at that meeting you attended in November 1998?
11 A. First of all, I have to say that you said that I had heard for
12 the first time the word on the 5th of November; however --
13 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Fila.
14 MR. FILA: [Microphone not activated].
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I would like to see where was it
17 recorded that the witness said that he heard about the Joint Command for
18 the first time on the 5th of November from Milutinovic. Where was it
19 that the witness said that? If Mr. Hannis could please point us in the
20 right direction I would be really grateful. Please check your question.
21 MR. HANNIS: I did not say that he heard it for the first time at
22 that meeting.
23 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] That's how it was translated to us,
24 that you said that he had heard this term Joint Command for the first
25 time. This is how it was translated to us.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not there in English, Mr. Fila --
2 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] I see, but that's what the witness is
3 hearing. He hears the interpretation into Serbian and that's how he's
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And you've clarified it and the witness now knows
6 that he doesn't need to deal with that. He can now go directly to the
8 Do you recall hearing President Milutinovic mention the Joint
9 Command at the meeting you attended on the 5th of November, 1998?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember whether he
11 mentioned it, I can't remember details from that period of time. If
12 that's what it says in the minutes then perhaps he did utter that, but I
13 cannot claim that he did say that because I don't remember that.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. In paragraph 51 of your statement you tell us that Minister
16 Stojiljkovic always had an extremely intolerant attitude to Sreten Lukic
17 and did not hesitate to show it. Can you give us an example of this
18 intolerant attitude that the minister had toward General Lukic?
19 A. Well, perhaps one of the example was the fact that he was not
20 appointed chief of secretariat, which would have been a normal course in
21 the professional development of an officer. I think he was major-general
22 at the time, and a colonel was appointed to the top position of the
23 secretariat in Belgrade
24 much lower position prior to that. That was an illogical thing to do.
25 Q. Is that the only example you have?
1 A. Well, I remember that example well, since I was employed at that
2 secretariat myself. I wasn't trying to remember any other examples.
3 Q. Okay --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, your statement is a very broad
5 statement that the minister always had an extremely intolerant attitude,
6 so it would help to have another few examples.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't see that I used the
8 term always -- oh, no, no, no, I see it here, yes, always.
9 MR. HANNIS:
10 Q. If you can't think of another example, I --
11 A. Well, I can't think of one because it's been a long time.
12 Q. Let me move on. I have limited time. Let's have a look at
13 Exhibit 1D680. I don't know if you might have seen this in the course of
14 your preparation for testifying. It's a draft of a letter from Minister
15 Stojiljkovic concerning a proposed promotion of General Lukic dated the
16 11th of May, 1999. Did you have a chance to see this prior to your
17 coming here to testify?
18 A. I don't remember seeing it.
19 Q. Okay. If you'll look at the last paragraph above the signature,
20 the English translation says: "In the past year Lukic has excelled in
21 successful command and control of the MUP units engaged in the prevention
22 of terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija. The highly positive results
23 achieved in this field in the past period which are largely owed to
24 Major-General Lukic are the best recommendation for promoting him."
25 That doesn't seem to show an intolerant attitude of the minister
1 towards General Lukic, does it?
2 A. On the basis of this example one can see perhaps that views or
3 positions changed. We saw the previous example.
4 Q. Well, you said he always had an intolerant attitude, so your
5 statement's not correct, is it?
6 A. Well, I analysed it on the basis of this example, that I am well
7 familiar with and it was enough for me to make my conclusions. I don't
8 know whether my conclusions are correct or not.
9 Q. And having read this now, does that change your mind?
10 A. Well, it was customary to have these promotions in our service.
11 For example, officers would be promoted when they met certain
12 requirements, having spent sufficient time in the lower rank and having
13 done certain things, and it is on the basis of that context that I made
14 my conclusion.
15 Q. Okay. Let me move to the last topic I want to cover with you and
16 show you Exhibit P1064. This is a document dated the 28th of July, 1998
17 from Petar Ilic, chief of the defence administration, to defence
18 departments. The subject is: Instructions for the defence of inhabited
19 areas. The first paragraph says: "The Joint Command for Kosovo and
20 Metohija has issued instructions for the defence of inhabited areas ..."
21 And my question relates to the second paragraph. It says: "In
22 addition to the resubordination of conscripts from SMO units," which I
23 believe is Federal Ministry of Defence units, "formed and mobilised by
24 defence departments and sections to the MUP. These instructions focus on
25 the engagement of the civil protection."
1 You were aware, were you not, that federal defence units had been
2 resubordinated to the MUP in the summer of 1998?
3 A. I see this documented for the first time. I don't quite
4 understand it since I had no contact and I had no information. When it
5 comes to contacts with police and these activities concerning civilian --
6 civil protection and the Ministry of Defence, I simply don't know
7 anything about it.
8 Q. Okay. I realized yesterday that we showed you a portion of a
9 meeting from the 29th of July, 1998, that you attended where General
10 Lukic spoke and said: "We're also arming citizens in towns and plans for
11 defending towns have been drawn up."
12 Do you remember that?
13 A. Partially, yes.
14 Q. And I now want to show you a related exhibit to this cover
15 letter, P2086, please. This is a lengthy document so I think it will
16 help if I can hand you a hard copy with the help from the usher. And I
17 would tell you I believe this is the attachment to that cover letter we
18 just looked at. These are the instructions for the defence of inhabited
19 places, and the first item I would have you look at - and it's on page 2
20 for you near the bottom, page 2 of the English - the instructions are
21 intended for staffs responsible for commanding and controlling the
22 defence of inhabited areas. And it says: "Given the different
23 organizational and establishment structures of police units that defend
24 towns and the purpose and capabilities of individual towns, the
25 provisions of these instructions must be flexibly applied."
1 Did you have no dealings with these defence plans that General
2 Lukic talked about being drawn up at the end of July 1998?
3 A. I had nothing to do with these plans. This is the first time
4 that I see such a document. I don't know whether it was intended for
5 that period of time or some future period of time. I simply don't
6 understand it.
7 Q. Okay. If you could go to page 4 in your B/C/S version, and it's
8 page 3 of the English. I'd like you to look at item number 2, which is
9 entitled: "Forces for the defence of towns and their purpose."
10 The first paragraph says: "In the specific conditions, the
11 forces for the defence of cities and other inhabited areas are the MUP
12 units, which unify all the forces in the inhabited area and organize,
13 lead, and perform combat operations. They change their composition
14 depending on the size and significance of the town."
15 That's how it worked, wasn't it? MUP was responsible for leading
16 the defence of inhabited areas, right?
17 A. This document is really not clear to me. I don't understand it,
18 given that we know how the police forces functioned and I see here that
19 combat activities are mentioned here as well. This is not something that
20 the police does, at least not these units, the way I see it.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. So it's simply not clear to me what this is about.
23 Q. Would you go to the next page of your document, and I'm
24 continuing on the bottom of page 3 at the very bottom it says: "MUP
25 reserve units in the cities also include members of civil protection and
1 monitoring and reporting systems. The civil protection as an element of
2 the MUP reserve composition operates primarily in the municipality."
3 And then I skip a sentence and I'm on page 4 of the English:
4 "Under the current conditions the civil protection units are not
5 activated, but they are part of the unified system of the MUP reserve and
6 they participate in combat operations during defence against attacks by
7 terrorist forces."
8 You didn't know that that's how the defence of towns was supposed
9 to be accomplished in July of 1998?
10 A. [Microphone not activated].
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll need to -- I'm afraid, Mr. Adamovic, you'll
13 need to start that answer again, please. There was a microphone problem.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my information, civil
15 protection even before 1998 and after 1998 was never part of the MUP,
16 that's what I know. MUP had a reserve police force and there is a
17 well-established procedure as to how that is done when it comes to
18 reserve police force, both in Kosovo and outside of Kosovo. This is why
19 I find it so difficult to interpret this document because it is not clear
20 to me, I can't give you my position regarding it, because what I know
21 from that field is simply different. I question, or rather, I can't
22 question this document because somebody drafted it, but I just can't
23 explain the text of the document.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, who's the author of this?
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this is the attachment that goes with
1 the cover letter from Petar Ilic in Exhibit P1064. He was the chief of
2 the defence administration, and we saw in that letter that conscripts
3 from the Ministry of Defence were resubordinated.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, and who was P1064 issued to?
5 MR. HANNIS: This is from Petar Ilic and it's going to the
6 defence department sections.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: And who are they?
8 MR. HANNIS: They're under the Ministry of Defence
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Right. Thank you.
11 MR. HANNIS: And I know my 20 minutes are up, Your Honour, but
12 I'd like to finish this topic, if I may.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
14 MR. HANNIS: I'll be as quick as possible.
15 Q. Sir, could you go to page 9 of your document. I'm looking for
16 item 5 which is entitled: "Commanding," and it's found on page 7 of the
17 English. And I have a question about my English translation, so if you
18 could read the first sentence under item number 5 for me I would
19 appreciate it.
20 A. "Command and control is an activity undertaken by the staff which
21 organizes the defence of the town. The commander of the unit organizing
22 the defence is a police officer and he commands the forces that are
23 engaged. The commander is responsible for executing the tasks assigned
24 to them."
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the English translation says: "Command
2 and contrast." I think control makes more sense. I can submit it for --
3 this is a revised translation from CLSS. I can submit it or with
4 agreement of the parties maybe we can all agree right now that that
5 should be "control."
6 JUDGE BONOMY: There's no challenge to the interpretation today
7 so we'll accept the translation that we've just heard.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
9 Q. And the next paragraph, sir, says: "The staff functionally ties
10 together and unites all the defence structures (the VJ reserve, the MUP,
11 the CZ," civil protection, "enterprises and citizens) as 'the MUP
13 So according to this it seems that in the defence of towns the
14 commander is going to be a police officer and all those defence
15 structures in the town include the VJ reserve, the MUP, the civil
16 protection, enterprises, and citizens. You weren't aware that that's how
17 the defence of towns was being organized?
18 A. I think that this does not correspond to what was done on the
19 ground. As far as I know there is no organ of this type in charge of the
20 police in Kosovo. I know that the secretariats carried out the same
21 tasks just like before 1998, so I don't know what this document is,
22 whether it was somebody's wishful thinking or what. In practice this is
23 not how it functioned.
24 Q. We know you disagree with the document. Can you please -- thank
25 you. One last item I want to ask you about, if you could go to item
1 number 7, I'm not sure what page that is in the B/C/S, page number 8 in
2 the English, and that item is headed: "Fighting with sabotage and other
3 special terrorist groups."
4 Do you find that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Could you go to the very end of that item, the last
7 paragraph above item number 8. I want to ask you about a comment there.
8 We have to go to page 9 of the English now and I think we probably have
9 to go to the next page in the B/C/S in e-court. The third line in that
10 last paragraph says: "Destruction is attempted whenever possible, before
11 they enter into an action. Achieving surprise is an important condition
12 in the combat against these forces and operations are undertaken swiftly,
13 boldly, and decisively, with the engagement of the population and other
14 defence forces."
15 Sir, this seems consistent with what we saw in some of the joint
16 activity orders of VJ and MUP in anti-terrorist operations where it talks
17 about using the armed non-Siptar population. And one of the meetings
18 that you attended, you were present when Captain Pesic talked about some
19 almost 60.000 people being armed in conjunction with the reserve police
20 offices. Isn't that part of the overall defence plan, was to include not
21 only the regular VJ and MUP forces and their reserve forces but the
22 population, basically the non-Siptar population, right?
23 A. As far as I know, we never discussed these things at the staff.
24 Whether this is some sort of a plan from the previous period of time that
25 was just copied down, that's just not clear to me. I am not familiar
1 with this plan and I don't think that it is consistent with the situation
2 on the ground because it mentions all structures, companies, enterprises,
3 civilians, police, which is a very wide spectrum.
4 Q. And the last thing I have in conjunction with this is another
5 document, P1135, if I can hand you a copy, there's one paragraph I want
6 to ask you about. This is from the 14th of July, 1998, it's a regular
7 operative report from the military district command in Pristina, item
8 number 14 is: "Main task." It says: "Providing expert assistance to
9 the MUP organs in preparing Serbian villages for defence. Conducting the
10 training of citizens titled weapons and target practice and tactical
11 training titled defence of populated areas."
12 Were you not aware that the military district command was
13 assisting the MUP in preparing Serbian villages for defence, particularly
14 tactical training called defence of populated areas? You didn't know
15 about that either?
16 A. I didn't know about that. What I knew is what I said earlier on,
17 that a certain number of members of the reserve force of the military and
18 the MUP had had weapons issued to them. So I haven't dealt with this
19 subject and I'm unfamiliar with these documents. But - how should I put
20 this? - the army carries out training. This was written by military
21 officers. I don't know. I simply don't understand these documents.
22 Q. I think you've answered my question.
23 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honours. Thank
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I have just one matter I want to ask you about,
3 Mr. Adamovic. Who was it during your time at the staff who commanded
5 A. OPGs involved members of special police units from the
6 secretariats in Kosovo and Metohija, that is to say that there were eight
7 companies. Every secretariat had one respectively, Pristina had two
8 companies, and within these companies there were say ten members in the
10 JUDGE BONOMY: And who commanded them when they were operating as
11 an OPG?
12 A. As far as I know, they were within companies. I was not out in
13 the field so I don't know whether the plan was changed or not, but that
14 means if there is ten from Djakovica, ten from Kosovska Mitrovica, and so
15 on and so forth, then they were in those companies, yes, in those
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And never brought together as an elite group?
18 A. I don't know. I am not abreast of that.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, re-examination?
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, just a short one.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Adamovic.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Let's just deal with what cropped up today regarding
25 resubordination of units of the civilian protection to the MUP.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up P1064.
2 Q. Do you see this document? The Prosecutor showed it to you as
4 A. I see it.
5 Q. You said that you had never seen this document. I would like to
6 ask you about the organ sending this document. Is it a republican or a
7 federal organ?
8 A. It says it's federal, that's what's written here.
9 Q. And the organ of the Ministry of the Interior?
10 A. Republican.
11 Q. Who was this letter sent to? Can you see at the bottom of the
13 A. I can see it.
14 Q. Or rather, my question is: Does this document reflect whether it
15 was ever sent to anyone in the MUP?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. In relation to this document, document P2086 was
18 shown to you so I'd like to have that called up in e-court as well,
19 please. I need the last page, please. The first one will do as well.
20 Let's see the first one first -- oh, now we have the last one. We're
21 looking at the last page.
22 Can it be seen whether this document was signed or stamped by
24 A. If page 13, the one on the screen, is the last one then there is
25 nothing on it, nothing of the sort.
1 Q. Thank you. Now let us deal with the items that the prosecutor
2 dealt with. Could we please have page 4 in B/C/S, 2(a), units and tasks
3 of the civilian protection in the reporting and observation system, page
4 4, so I guess we need page 5 in e-court.
5 A. I don't have the fifth page.
6 Q. Now we're going to have page 4 displayed to you.
7 MR. LUKIC: Page with number 4 in B/C/S. Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] We have it now, page 4 of the document with a
9 number 4. Could you please read paragraphs 1 and 2 for us. What are the
10 tasks of the civilian protection?
11 A. "1. General purpose CZ units: Administer first aid, rescue
12 people from ruins, extinguish initial and smaller fires, clear
13 barricades, organize the washing of streets, and so on."
14 Q. What about paragraph 2?
15 A. "Specialised units of the CZ perform larger-scale and
16 professionally more complex tasks and rescues: Rescue from ruins (they
17 can be construction, road, and fire-fighting units), administering first
18 aid, destroying unexploded ordnance, clearing the terrain, maintaining
19 order, and so on. They are organized in the same way as civil protection
20 units for general purposes."
21 Q. Please read on. Could we have the next paragraph as well.
22 A. "This means that after undertaking combat operations these units
23 are engaged in the implementation of these tasks without a special order
24 (activation in case of imminent threat of war)."
25 Q. This last sentence that you read out to us, does it show whether
1 they were activated in July 1998 which is the date that we have on this
3 A. Well, this shows that at that time they could not have been
4 activated and that this document is probably on the basis of documents
5 that are done in advance, and it depends what period this refers to.
6 Perhaps it was first written many years ago and then it's just copied
7 time and again.
8 Q. At the time when you were in Kosovo and Metohija - and we have
9 seen what the tasks of these units are - have you ever heard of these
10 civil protection units being subordinated to the MUP of the Republic of
12 A. This is the first time I hear of that, right here and now.
13 Q. As for this document it was suggested to you by my colleague
14 Mr. Hannis that the police commanded the reserve units of the Army of
16 ever have occasion to see the police commanding reserve units of the Army
17 of Yugoslavia
18 A. I think that quite simply that is not possible in terms of the
19 establishment we have in our area.
20 Q. Thank you. That will do as far as this subject is concerned. I
21 would just like to go back quickly to a document that my colleague
22 Mr. Ackerman showed you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in e-court
25 Q. Maybe I made a mistake. Maybe it wasn't Mr. Ackerman, but that's
1 what I've written down here. At any rate, the document was shown to you.
2 And we need the last page of this document. This is a document that says
3 in its heading that it was issued by the MUP command. I'm going to ask
4 you about the initials at the end of the document on the last page. Do
5 you see them?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you please read out the first initials?
8 A. MDJ.
9 Q. Think about this a bit, on the MUP staff while you were on the
10 MUP staff was there a person there with those initials, MDJ?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Can you remember whether in the Pristina Corps there was a man
13 with the initials MDJ?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] It's too late now, but I think this
18 was a leading question. Thank you.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, I'm sorry, I was asleep at that point I'm
20 afraid, Mr. Cepic.
21 It was indeed, Mr. Lukic. Please be careful with your leading
23 MR. LUKIC: I don't know how else I could put this question. If
24 he knows somebody in Pristina of course with these initials.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: [Microphone not activated].
1 MR. LUKIC: I can't hear.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Why not ask him if he knows of anyone elsewhere
3 with such initials or in any other organization with such initials or in
4 some other position with such initials. Do you want me to go on?
5 MR. LUKIC: No, thank you.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Please.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Tell us, please, at the time while you were in Pristina, how many
9 people did you know with these initials and please tell us the names of
10 the persons whose initials were MDJ?
11 A. Well, I remember Colonel Milan Djakovic. I can try to remember
12 whether there is someone else I know. Quite simply, right this moment I
13 cannot remember whether I knew anyone else with these initials.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Adamovic. Thank you for having come and
15 testified. Thank you.
16 A. Thank you.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Adamovic, that completes your evidence. Thank
18 you for coming here to give evidence. You may now leave the courtroom
19 with the usher.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, who is your next witness?
22 MR. LUKIC: The next witness is Mr. Nebojsa Bogunovic, Your
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
4 speak the truth by reading aloud the document now shown to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: You'll now be examined by Mr. Lukic.
10 Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: NEBOJSA BOGUNOVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic. Your statement
16 is going to be shown to you now so could you please have a look at it.
17 Mr. Bogunovic, do you recognise the statement that is before you?
18 A. Before me is the statement that I gave to you as Defence counsel,
19 and it is authentic, it reflects my statement.
20 Q. Is your signature on this statement?
21 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 Q. If you were to testify today would you answer the same questions
23 in the same way?
24 A. I don't think I could add or take away anything from what this
25 statement contains.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could Mr. Bogunovic's
3 statement be admitted into evidence as 6D1614.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. That is all we have for you at this point in time.
7 Now probably some of my colleagues from the Defence will have some
8 questions for you and then the Prosecutor.
9 A. Thank you too.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Fila:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.
12 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Fila.
13 Q. In order to move on faster and to make it easier I would like to
14 call up in e-court document 6D798. You're going to see it on the screen
15 now and I'm going to ask you about that.
16 A. I still don't have anything.
17 Q. It will come up. Sir, Mr. Bogunovic, you did not attend this
18 meeting, but the chiefs of secretariats attended it. Do you know that
19 this meeting was held on the 22nd of July, 1998, in the staff of the
21 A. I can see that my superior, Colonel Adamovic, attended the
22 meeting. I suppose that this is authentic.
23 Q. Upon his return from the meeting did he perhaps hold a meeting
24 with you to brief you about the meeting that he had attended?
25 A. Whenever my superior went anywhere, upon his return he would
1 always hold a meeting with us, his subordinates, and he would inform us
2 about what had happened at that meeting and what our tasks were.
3 Q. Upon his return from this particular meeting did he mention to
4 you that one of the two generals that you see there, one is Obrad and the
5 other one is Rodja, mentioned that some kind of a Joint Command was
6 established for Kosovo and Metohija comprising civilians or noncivilians
7 or anything of the sort?
8 A. This is the first time I encounter this term, Joint Command,
9 except in 1981 when there existed a Joint Command at the level of the
10 former Yugoslavia
11 Q. During that time you were in Djakovica when this meeting was held
12 if I understood it correctly, right?
13 A. This is the time when I was in the territory of the Djakovica
15 Q. And then at some point later you were transferred to the Kosovska
16 Mitrovica SUP where Mr. Cvetic was the chief?
17 A. In November I was transferred pursuant to the decision of the
18 chief of the sector, General Djordjevic, to Kosovska Mitrovica, where my
19 superior was Mr. Cvetic.
20 Q. During your stay with Mr. Cvetic while you served together with
21 Mr. Cvetic, did Mr. Cvetic mention to you that there was some sort of a
22 Joint Command mentioned at this meeting or did he tell you anything about
23 the existence of this Joint Command?
24 A. Given that I came to a new area that was not familiar to me,
25 Cvetic informed me with the tasks, with my tasks, and with the situation
1 on the ground in the territory of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP. Once
2 again, I never heard this term nor did I ever see a document mentioning
3 combined command.
4 Q. Joint Command?
5 A. Or Joint Command.
6 Q. During your service did you see somebody interfering in the MUP
7 chain of command?
8 A. As far as I'm concerned, I received orders from my officers, in
9 this case from Colonel Adamovic and Colonel Cvetic --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: From my superior
12 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I see based on your statement that you are familiar with what
14 Mr. Cvetic said in his statement about policemen and so on, and I'm not
15 going to go into that. But since he was replaced, as far as I know, at
16 some point in time can you tell us what kind of an officer he was as
17 chief of SUP, what was he like?
18 A. It's a bit uncomfortable to talk about a person who is not here,
19 but since I took an oath to tell the truth I have nothing else that I can
20 do but give you my perception of Mr. Cvetic as my first, immediate
21 superior in Kosovska Mitrovica. One of the reasons why I was sent to
22 Kosovska Mitrovica is this person called Cvetic who did -- who was not in
23 charge of the situation on the ground in the territory of the Kosovska
24 Mitrovica SUP. He enclosed himself in the premises, in several rooms of
25 the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP. He hid there from his officers, avoiding to
1 carry out his duties. And after going to meetings --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bogunovic, we have all this in the statement.
3 Mr. Fila must be wanting more information or different information.
4 Perhaps you could focus it better, Mr. Fila.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours.
6 MR. FILA: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Could you then tell us what kind of a man he was?
8 A. If I could choose, I would never select him as my superior or my
10 Q. So to cut the story short, he was a bad superior officer and as a
11 person he was even worse than that, would you agree with me?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. That's all I had for you.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Fila.
15 Mr. Cepic.
16 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: How long do you envisage?
18 MR. CEPIC: Less than one hour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Hopefully significantly less. We'll leave it to
20 you to do your best. Please continue.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do my best.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Cepic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, good afternoon.
24 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Cepic.
25 Q. My name is Djuro Cepic, as you have heard, I'm Defence counsel
1 for Mr. Lazarevic. I will try to focus on specific questions, and
2 therefore would you please take your statement. I'm interested in
3 paragraphs 10 and 11.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Cepic repeat the paragraphs, we may
5 have misheard him.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you see this in front of you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You see that there were joint actions of the MUP and the police,
10 you also mention that in paragraph 12. I'm interested whether you were a
11 member of the command structure or a member of the PJP units.
12 A. I was not a member of a PJP unit.
13 Q. Thank you. Would I be right in saying that you did not see the
14 plans for joint actions of the MUP and the army?
15 A. I did not see the plans for actions, either those of the MUP or
16 those of the army, since MUP made exclusively plans for erecting
17 obstacles and so on --
18 Q. All right. So you didn't see any plans for joint actions?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Thank you. Now in paragraph 8 of your statement you say that in
21 the territory of Kosovska Mitrovica SUP there were the 35th and 85th
22 Detachment. Could we see document 5D1417 in e-court, please.
23 While we're waiting for the document to come up, was Colonel
24 Branko Prljevic the commander of the 35th Detachment, do you remember
1 A. Yes, I remember, he was a classmate of mine.
2 Q. Thank you. He has also completed the military academy, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We see the document here, we see the document of the Kosovska
5 Mitrovica SUP --
6 MR. LUKIC: I think we agreed that this -- that this document
7 should be either replaced or not used because of this handwriting on the
8 right-hand side.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: What's your recollection, Mr. Cepic?
10 MR. CEPIC: With your leave, we already have in the system a copy
11 of this document without those handwritings on it.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: So can we find it? Ah, there we are. Thank you.
13 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have the other copies withdrawn or are they
15 to remain there, Mr. Haider?
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Please continue, Mr. Cepic.
18 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, secretariat in Mitrovica, 35th
20 and 85th Detachment, are these the detachments that we mentioned?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Thank you. The next question has to do --
23 A. Sir, if I may explain. This document is something that I haven't
24 seen before. I see it for the first time --
25 Q. No, I just wanted to ask you whether it was these units in that
2 A. I see that it says the 35th and so on -- I apologise.
3 Q. We see the 35th and the 85th Detachment, these are the
4 detachments that were in the territory of Mitrovica
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogunovic, the 21st paragraph of your statement,
7 RPOs. Could we see 4D521, please, in the meantime.
8 While we're waiting for the document to come up, tell us this:
9 You probably knew that a number of members of the RPOs came from the
10 reserve military units. You knew that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We see the document now. It is from the summer of 1998, and in
13 this document the military district command addresses the MUP of Serbia
14 due to a problem whereby military conscripts were assigned to the RPO
15 units without there being a prior consent from the military. Were you
16 familiar with this problem?
17 A. No, I wasn't, since I spent very little time working in this
18 area, in Kosovska Mitrovica, and at this time I was in Djakovica where
19 there were very few RPOs, if I'm not mistaken just seven of them.
20 Q. Thank you. I have a document here from the wartime confirming
21 the existence of RPOs during the war, and in order to speed this up would
22 you agree with me that it is possible that RPOs existed during wartime
23 without you knowing about it?
24 A. During the war, as far as I know, reserve police squads were
25 disbanded, reserve policemen became members of the police force, whereas
1 military conscripts went to their assignments in units according to their
2 wartime assignments. It is possible that there was an individual or two
3 that remained, but they were neither members of the MUP or the army or
4 any other formation.
5 Q. I suppose that you didn't have insight into the entire area of
6 Kosovo and Metohija, but rather just the territory of your own SUP?
7 A. Since I'm under oath I can speak only about those things that I
8 know of and things that happened where I was.
9 Q. Could we see 6D802. Mr. Bogunovic, these are conclusions from
10 the meetings of the 7th and 11th of May, 1999, of the MUP of Serbia and
11 could we see item 19, please.
12 Could you please read item 19, please.
13 A. I can't see it. The letters are too small.
14 Q. They will zoom in now.
15 A. "Members of the RPO may not wear police and military uniforms if
16 they have not been mobilised and engaged in reserve formations of the MUP
17 and the Army of Yugoslavia
18 Q. Did you personally receive conclusions from these meetings?
19 A. I do not receive conclusions. It is the person who attends the
20 meetings that receives conclusions.
21 Q. Oh, all right. Thank you. Would you please look at paragraph 56
22 of your statement.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Before you do, paragraph 19 there suggests that
24 you're wrong about the reserve police squads. What do you have to say
25 about that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that reserve police
2 squads were disbanded and that they did not exist at that time.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: But this document indicates that they did exist;
4 how could that be?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not attend the meeting. As
6 far as I know in the territory of Kosovska Mitrovica police squads were
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that the extent of your knowledge, confined to
9 Kosovska Mitrovica?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can only speak
11 about places where I was. At that time I was in the territory of
12 Kosovska Mitrovica, and it is my position that police RPOs did not exist,
13 that the members who had been activated --
14 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, paragraph 56 of your statement, would you please
16 take a look at that. Have you found it?
17 A. Yes, Mr. Cepic.
18 Q. I have carefully looked at the document that you refer to and I
19 see that it has to do with the accused person Sasa Radojcic due to murder
20 of a member of the Army of Yugoslavia. You probably know, or rather, do
21 you know that these proceedings were further dealt with by the military
23 A. As for this, I can only say that I always had good cooperation
24 with members of the army and that there were exchanges of information
25 going both ways and that we did everything in accordance with the law as
1 far as the prosecution, or rather, the implementation of any case we were
2 working on was concerned.
3 Q. This was murder, it was a Serb killing a Serb if I can put it
4 that way.
5 A. I know.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Your Honours, in
7 the document, 5D955, this incident is described under number 1, the one
8 that was just referred to.
9 [In English] P955, not 5D, page number 13 in e-court system.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: The transcript's not recording the number you
12 MR. CEPIC: I will repeat. P955, page 13 in e-court system.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
14 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, you said that exchanges of
16 information went both ways. I'm going to show you a document now.
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in e-court
18 5D991, please, the 13th of May, 1999.
19 Q. Please take a look at the last paragraph of this document, the
20 180th Detachment of the military territorial defence in the territory of
21 Kosovska Mitrovica. We see down here that arrest was carried out and --
22 of a civilian who was engaged in arson, who was setting houses on fire,
23 and that he be handed over to MUP organs.
24 A. As for this particular case, I knew about that.
25 Q. I'm sorry. Were there other such cases when the army would
1 arrest some civilians and they would catch committing a crime and then
2 hand them over to you and then you would deal with them?
3 A. That's what I said a few moments ago that I had an exceptionally
4 good cooperation with the members of the Army of Yugoslavia. As for all
5 information we had regarding any crime regarding any crime that took
6 place in my area, we exchanged information on that and we took
7 appropriate measures. I in my own chain and the gentlemen from the
8 military in their own.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a suitable time to interrupt you,
11 Mr. Cepic?
12 MR. CEPIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bogunovic, we have to have a break at this
14 stage for 20 minutes. While we have that break, could you please leave
15 the courtroom with the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall resume at five minutes past 4.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
21 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, in your statement in paragraph 67
23 you refer to the Bajgora action. I would be interested in what preceded
24 that action. Was this area a powerful terrorist stronghold and did
25 terrorists often attack from that area?
1 A. Our intelligence was - and we exchanged that intelligence with
2 the army - that this was one of the major KLA strongholds in the area of
3 Kosovska Mitrovica along with a few others that I wouldn't want to refer
4 to now.
5 Q. Is one of them the area of Drenica or Srbica?
6 A. I would agree with you.
7 Q. In that area, before the bombing started, were there frequent
8 terrorist attacks in February/March 1999?
9 A. I think that in my statement I did say that, that this was a
10 hotbed and the MUP practically never went there. It was only after the
11 activities carried out by the MUP and the army, and very briefly at that,
12 and it was afterwards.
13 Q. In a few documents you described that in late April and in May
14 there was fighting in that area with the terrorist forces. This fighting
15 involved independent operations on the part of the army; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. [No interpretation]
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear Mr. Cepic.
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You will agree with me that all these military documents that you
21 refer to in your statement were documents that you first saw during your
22 proofing, right?
23 A. I first saw them when General Lukic's Defence showed them to me.
24 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 83, the on-site investigation in the
25 village of Izbica. This on-site investigation was carried out by a team
1 from the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP; isn't that right?
2 A. The on-site investigation was carried out on the basis of an
3 order issued by the judge of the district court of Kosovska Mitrovica.
4 Q. Thank you. You personally did not attend, am I right if I say
5 that, you were not at the on-site investigation yourself?
6 A. You are right. In addition to the persons mentioned here, my
7 immediate superior was there, the chief of the secretariat, Vucina
8 Janicijevic, he was on the spot.
9 Q. You will agree with me that with regard to the investigation and
10 with regard to the autopsy that followed, all of this was done at the
11 request of the investigating judge of the district court in Kosovska
12 Mitrovica and the district public attorney?
13 A. We do that only in accordance with instructions issued by the
15 Q. Here in the lower part of this paragraph you say that experts
16 from the military medical academy carried out the external examinations
17 and exhumations. You must have misspoken because exhumations are carried
18 out by the court and examinations can be carried out by anyone, military
19 doctors or a doctor from any civilian institution.
20 A. I see that it is a mistake.
21 Q. These experts from the VMA, they work on orders from the district
22 court, right?
23 A. The court was looking for the right people to do that and that's
24 what they found.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bogunovic, paragraph 89 of your statement,
1 check-points. You probably know that military organs at their separate
2 check-points and at mixed check-points were only in charge of the members
3 of the Army of Yugoslavia, whereas the members of the MUP at their own
4 check-points and at mixed check-points were in charge of all other
6 A. That is why there were these joint check-points, so as to have
7 clear-cut authority. The MUP is in charge of civilians and everyone, and
8 the army is in charge of people in uniform from the Army of Yugoslavia or
10 Q. Thank you. At that moment it was the Army of Yugoslavia; it
11 became the Army of Serbia later?
12 A. I agree.
13 Q. You mentioned Lieutenant-Colonel Dikovic, that was his rank at
14 the time, this is paragraph 90, his criticism of military check-points.
15 A document is referred to here, one of his documents. In all fairness,
16 it's a document from the corps and you said that you did not see that.
17 Do you know that Colonel Dikovic in that period of time, that is to say
18 in April/May 1999, was in the area of Glogovac?
19 A. As for Mr. Dikovic, Lieutenant-Colonel Dikovic, I know him
20 personally. [Microphone not activated].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, something went wrong,
24 At that time I assume that he was in the territory of my
25 municipality because it borders on Glogovac and that is the municipality
1 of Srbica.
2 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Petar Damjanac from the Glogovac SUP testified here and he
4 confirmed that Colonel Dikovic was in his territory, the territory of the
5 SUP of Glogovac.
6 A. He personally, that is possible, but I assume that part of his
7 unit was in my area too.
8 Q. If he were to address anyone it would be logical for him to
9 address your colleagues at the Glogovac SUP, right?
10 A. I agree.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: Just one correction, it's not SUP Glogovac, it's
13 OUP --
14 MR. CEPIC: Okay.
15 MR. LUKIC: -- and it's different capabilities of OUPs and SUPs.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Under which SUP was the OUP of Glogovac? Let's clarify that.
19 A. Not mine.
20 Q. The SUP of Pristina then?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 91 of your statement, Mr. Bogunovic, you
23 say that members of the VJ were in towns and you mention those towns. Do
24 you know whether the forces of the Pristina Corps -- well, you were in
25 Kosovska Mitrovica, weren't you, and they left the barracks in Kosovska
1 Mitrovica and the town itself before the bombing started and they took up
2 areas of deployment outside built-up areas?
3 A. I know that the barracks in Mitrovica was evacuated by the
4 military and the police, or rather, that they vacated the premises.
5 Q. And you probably know that these military forces left the town
6 together with materiel and equipment for the most part?
7 A. I'd rather not discuss issues that I'm not hundred per cent
8 certain of because I'm under oath and I don't want to say something that
9 wouldn't be truthful.
10 Q. Thank you. These uniformed persons that you saw in town, or
11 rather, in towns you mostly saw people moving about unarmed mostly going
12 from their units home or back to their units?
13 A. I can say that I'm a person who spent a lot of time out there in
14 the territory because the first person in our SUP didn't do that himself,
15 and while doing so I met a lot of persons wearing the Army of Yugoslavia
16 uniforms. In most cases those were old uniforms. It's either uniforms
17 known under number 57 or 75, I'm not sure, and that there were fewer
18 camouflage military uniforms.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you perhaps know that these old uniforms that you
20 mentioned were mostly worn by the members of civilian defence?
21 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
22 Q. Paragraph 92 of your statement. Could we now see 6D1027, please.
23 You stated here that there were some attempts to implement
24 resubordination, that that did not occur, you mentioned Colonel Savic.
25 We will now take a look at one of his documents. Could we see the second
1 page of the said document.
2 You see that this is dated 3rd of June, 1999?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the bottom of the page.
5 Q. Sir, this is his attempt to issue tasks to the MUP forces and it
6 remained at the level of an attempt; correct?
7 A. As for Colonel Savic, I can say that I had frequent contact with
8 him, and I were to choose the person I would like to work with it would
9 be him. As for this document, I have never seen it and I talked to him
10 about resubordination. Since I wasn't competent to decide on this and
11 since I am not the kind of person who exclusively dealt with actions, and
12 as far as I can remember that was the sole reason for resubordination and
13 the tasks that I performed within the ministry, they were identical both
14 in peacetime and in wartime, which means that those were issuing of
15 passports, ensuring law and order, apprehending perpetrators of crimes,
16 and other tasks as specified by law.
17 Q. Thank you. At any rate, there was no resubordination to Colonel
19 A. As far as the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP is concerned, there was
21 Q. Thank you. You have just mentioned to us the tasks that you
22 performed in peacetime and in wartime. You will agree with me that in
23 wartime in Kosovska Mitrovica there were no Crisis Staffs, that the
24 courts, the prosecutor's office, and the municipality operated normally
25 just like all other civilian authorities?
1 A. As for the secretariat where I was, we followed routine
2 principles and regulations in force at the time. As for the Crisis
3 Staff, I heard that term somewhere.
4 Q. But there was none in practice?
5 A. All I can say about that is that the equipment and materiel that
6 we came across out there in the field, we turned it over to the
7 municipality and its services. Now, I can't really tell you anything
8 about anything else because I'm not certain of it.
9 Q. So to conclude, the court, the prosecutor's office, civilian
10 prosecutor, that is, and the municipality functioned during wartime?
11 A. Correct.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: In what context did you hear reference to the
13 Crisis Staff?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not from that area and I didn't
15 know people from Kosovska Mitrovica or Djakovica, so I mostly dealt on --
16 dealt with the issues within the secretariat, people who hailed from
17 these OUPs and police stations, the local ones, they maintained contact
18 with people from the local self government.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Let me ask you the question again in case you
20 didn't understand it. In what context did you hear reference to the
21 Crisis Staff?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The body that is charged with
23 taking over property from citizens that remained unclaimed or
24 unprotected. It was in that context that I heard of it. Representatives
25 of the local government, inspection services, and so on were involved in
1 these issues in other organs.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: So do we take it from that answer that there was a
3 Crisis Staff?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't claim that
5 because I'm not 100 per cent certain and I would rather not say anything
6 that I'm not 100 per cent certain of.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Who spoke of it to you?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that when talking to my
9 subordinates, when property items were turned over, and I mentioned that
10 in the written statement given to you.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry, can you help me with that, Mr. Cepic,
12 where is it --
13 MR. LUKIC: It's paragraph 93 --
14 MR. CEPIC: 93.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's staff not Crisis Staff.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, we're talking about Crisis Staff.
17 MR. CEPIC: Maybe I made a mistake with my question, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: You got the answer from him that he had heard
19 reference to a Crisis Staff.
20 MR. CEPIC: Maybe it was in my question, I'm not sure.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: No, his answer was: "As for the secretariat where
22 I was, we followed routine principles and regulations in force at the
23 time. As for the Crisis Staff, I heard that term somewhere," and I just
24 want to know where he heard it, but it's become a bit more complex than
25 that because it looks as though there might have been one. So it's -- it
1 would be helpful to know a little more about the context in which it was
2 referred -- it was mentioned to him.
3 You've told us that subordinates talked about the Crisis Staff
4 when property items were turned over. Were they turning over property to
5 the Crisis Staff?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, was that question
7 directed to me?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
11 Mr. Cepic.
12 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, I'm a bit confused now because
14 you say Crisis Staff now and in your statement it says just staff.
15 A. A slip of the tongue.
16 Q. So what do you have in mind, just the staff or the Crisis Staff?
17 A. The Crisis Staff.
18 Q. And a bit earlier you told me that all structures functioned,
19 that is to say the municipality, the court, the prosecutor's office, the
20 inspection services?
21 A. According to the regulation in force at the time, this SUP was
22 not duty-bound to take care of the property --
23 Q. Well, I'm asking you about this. You said that all kinds of
24 authorities in town functioned.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And we can see it in the document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. We see in the statement that you mentioned the staff and now you
4 told us the Crisis Staff. Do you have any direct knowledge of it, did
5 you ever go there?
6 A. I never went to any staffs, and I have already explained that.
7 As for the Crisis Staff, people from the prosecutor's office, judiciary,
8 were not members of that staff, people from the municipality were, people
9 who dealt with inspection services, all kinds of inspection services. I
10 don't want to enumerate all of them.
11 Q. So it was exclusively people who were employed in the Kosovska
12 Mitrovica municipality?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 96 of your statement you speak of the
15 Kosovska Mitrovica municipality and its territory, and then you mention
16 5D985. You explained the situation with the wounded members of the army
17 in the Bair region.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 5D985, please. Could we
19 have the second page.
20 Q. We can see now in the middle of the page the description of the
21 event. You will agree with me, won't you, that these soldiers who were
22 injured were at that point in time on duty securing the military
23 warehouse in the Bair facility?
24 A. Yes, I would agree with me since I know that part of the
25 barracks, that is to say warehouses where ammunition was stored, are
1 located there. I know that the army held that part under its control.
2 Q. Thank you. I want to cover something else very briefly.
3 Mr. Bogunovic, who was the chief of the secretariat in Pec, do you
4 remember that by any chance?
5 A. It was Mr. -- I know him but the name escapes me.
6 Q. Can I say that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it Vojislav -- Borislav Vlahovic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know Blagoje Djordjevic from the Pec SUP?
11 A. I've heard of him.
12 Q. All right. You started telling us something and then I asked you
13 about the preceding paragraphs about planning of activities and you spoke
14 about erecting barricades, raids, and so on, and other activities of the
15 SUP. So now let us look at the plan so that we can see what those
16 activities looked like in the Pec SUP?
17 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 5D1422.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I would object at this point.
19 Mr. Paponjak was here testifying about the area of SUP Pec. I don't know
20 why should this witness testify about Pec municipality when he emphasized
21 several times that he's testifying only about events in his municipality,
22 so Djakovica and Kosovska Mitrovica.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic, what knowledge does this witness have
24 of events in Pec?
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] I'm not speaking about direct
1 knowledge in the Pec municipality. It's just that the witness when
2 prompted by me said that the SUPs normally planned the erection of
3 barricades and raids, so I was interested whether indeed it was the case
4 in the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP where this witness worked.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he's told you that but --
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] So could I discuss it with him on the
7 basis of this document? I just need to put two questions to him.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary, Your Honours, I can
9 explain to you how SUPs work. The SUP where I --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: No, just let us determine what to do about this.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: There's a risk of the position in Pec being
13 misunderstood should this evidence be presented in the light of a
14 document which has no bearing on the area with which this witness is
15 familiar, Kosovska Mitrovica. So if you want to ask questions, ask them
16 directly of the witness, but please do not refer to circumstances in Pec.
17 In your submissions if you see a similarity, you can no doubt draw our
18 attention to that similarity.
19 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, if the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP
21 were to find it necessary to conduct a blockade and a search in its
22 territory, then that would need to be done in writing, correct?
23 A. Everything that is done in the Ministry of the Interior must
24 leave a trace, which means that it has to be in writing.
25 Q. This plan of blockade and search in writing should contain the
1 place of commission, the time of commission, the objective, the way in
2 which this was carried out, material and technical resources, equipment
3 and weapons for the execution of the task, the preparation for the
4 execution, and ultimately information and reporting as well as a
5 recapitulation of the manpower and equipment used. Isn't that right?
6 A. With regard to every activity, a plan should contain all the
7 things that you referred to and other things that I would like to add
8 because this was not complete. A plan of activities that would be
9 carried out by a member of the Ministry of the Interior that I was in
10 charge of.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. I point out, though, that this is a plan of activities, a plan of
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what is that? Because we've just heard a lot
16 of evidence from the last witness about things that were done without any
17 trace being kept.
18 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Well, I have one in my hands, Your
19 Honour, so I wanted to show that to the witness to ask him whether that
20 was the form that they used at the time.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: You can ask the witness to describe what his plan
22 of activities was. What the plan in Pec was, bearing in mind what the
23 last witness has told us about the situation in the MUP staff, may be
24 completely different.
25 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] By your leave I would like to show
1 the witness this document, and then he can say whether they worked
2 differently in Kosovska Mitrovica at that SUP as compared to the Pec SUP.
3 Perhaps we would gain time in that way.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: No, we have decided that matter, Mr. Cepic. I
5 think you have run your course. I think we should bring your
6 cross-examination to an end.
7 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, who is it that drafts this plan
9 within the secretariats itself?
10 A. It depends on the activity that is supposed to be carried out.
11 Q. For what activities to you plan these actions and activities?
12 A. Well, if I were to speak about this it would take a while,
13 searching apartments, catching perpetrators, and so on and so forth. Let
14 us not tire the honourable Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: These sound to me like guide-lines on how to do it
16 rather than a plan for particular activities that you know you are going
17 to undertake.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your
19 question, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: These sound like general guide-lines. They do not
21 sound like a specific plan for a specific activity such as a search.
22 Now, am I misunderstanding the position?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you're right, Your Honour.
24 That is part of what a plan should contain for an activity that is
25 carried out by the members of the Ministry of the Interior.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Cepic, if you have a particular point to
2 make about something that happened in Kosovska Mitrovica that's
3 inconsistent with the plan or has something to do about the plan, you
4 better make it quickly because your cross-examination must now come to an
6 MR. CEPIC: I'm almost at the end, Your Honour. Just a couple of
7 questions in relation to the planning from the secretariat of internal
8 affairs. May I?
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
10 MR. CEPIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, very simply, the SUP of Kosovska
12 Mitrovica is supposed to carry out a blockade and search, they are trying
13 to capture some terrorists, four or five terrorists in the area of the
14 SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica, who assesses the situation and who makes the
16 A. First of all, in order to do anything there has to be information
17 about that. After information is received, then people who a competent
18 for this meet, members of the OKP, the police, and the immediate
19 superior, and that is the chief of SUP, or rather, an officer authorised
20 by him. A plan of activity is made, and after that the dangerous
21 perpetrators of the crime are captured, either terrorists or persons who
22 are drug pushers or whatever else.
23 Q. Just a moment. Who specifically draws up this plan?
24 A. The authorised official, authorised by the chief of the
25 secretariat, and in this kind of a situation it would be the head of the
1 police department together with the chief of the OKP. And all persons
2 who took part in drawing up this plan would sign this plan, meaning that
3 they had drawn up the plan, plan approved by, and I agree. That is what
4 the last page would look like.
5 Q. You're right, Mr. Bogunovic, I have that kind of a plan from the
6 SUP of Pec and that is what the last page looks like.
7 A. These are regular documents that we -- well, not to say every
8 day, but certainly once a week we have such documents created.
9 Q. Just one more document at the end. You mentioned the concept of
10 a Joint Command existing in 1981. Let me just ask you one question with
11 regard to that and then we'll be done.
12 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up P1508.
13 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, can you see this document from 1993 before you?
14 A. Yes, but it is not the Joint Command in the sense of "zdruzena
15 komanda, zdruzena komanda," those were members from all the republics of
16 the former Yugoslavia
17 JUDGE BONOMY: How is this going to help us, Mr. Cepic, to
18 analyse the situation in 1998 and 1999?
19 MR. CEPIC: With your leave if we see the third page they mention
20 Joint Command in this document.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: So what? No, please remove it. That's the end of
22 your cross-examination.
23 MR. CEPIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: You have to prioritize what you're doing and give
25 us material that directly impinges on the real issues in the case. We're
1 not hear to explore the history of the use of the expression Joint
2 Command in the former Yugoslavia
3 Thank you.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bogunovic, you will now be cross-examined by
6 the Prosecutor, Mr. Stamp.
7 Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. --
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. When you were appointed to the -- to be deputy chief of SUP
13 Kosovska Mitrovica, did you receive a written letter of appointment?
14 A. I received a decision on my appointment.
15 Q. Do you have it?
16 A. I'm not a person who collects decisions --
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
18 A. -- pertaining to him. There were quite a few of them and it all
19 exists in my dossier or file.
20 Q. Who gave you that decision?
21 A. It was handed over to me by my chief of secretariat, Ljubinko
22 Cvetic. The decision was signed by Vlastimir Djordjevic, chief of the
24 Q. So that is when you arrived in Kosovska Mitrovica in November
25 1998 that Mr. Cvetic handed over to you a decision?
1 A. That's right, sir.
2 Q. Who told you to go down to Kosovska Mitrovica?
3 A. My superior, Colonel Adamovic, chief of the secretariat of the
4 Djakovica SUP.
5 Q. Did you discuss your appointment to Kosovska Mitrovica in
6 November 1998 with anybody in the MUP staff for Kosovo?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When you met with Mr. Cvetic in November and you say that he
9 handed over to you a document, did he tell you who it was who told him
10 that you were to be appointed as a deputy in Kosovska Mitrovica?
11 A. I don't know who had told him. I told you who sent me to
12 Kosovska Mitrovica, so I really can't say. The man was here, perhaps you
13 should have addressed that question to him.
14 Q. Well, unhappily it wasn't brought to our attention that you would
15 say what you have when he was here, but I suggest to you that he did not
16 give you any writing about your appointment.
17 A. I don't know on the basis of what you are claiming that since you
18 were not there. I was there and I signed that in the presence of my
19 chief of secretariat.
20 Q. Well --
21 A. I'm under oath, I can only tell the truth.
22 Q. Did you at any time -- well, I suggest to you also that it was
23 Mr. Lukic, General Lukic, and Mr. Mijatovic who told him that you were to
24 be appointed to -- as a deputy in Kosovska Mitrovica. Do you know of
25 that --
1 MR. LUKIC: Objection. Objection. This is too much.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your objection?
3 MR. LUKIC: We want -- if he is suggesting, we want the source.
4 Where is the source for this claim?
5 MR. STAMP: Well --
6 MR. LUKIC: Quotation, please.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, counsel can help you if he wishes, but he
8 doesn't need to disclose a source for putting the question. All that
9 matters is the answer. The question is immaterial unless the witness
10 accepts it and answers it. But if he wishes to assist you, then he will.
11 Mr. Stamp.
12 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honours. As you know, Mr. Cvetic was here
13 and these questions were not asked of him, but since we have received
14 this statement we have had to get instructions from Mr. Cvetic in respect
15 to what this witness is now alleging. And I put the question to him on
16 the basis of those instructions. In any case, as indicated by the Court,
17 I don't think I need to tell him that.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: If this is represented as Mr. Cvetic's testimony, we
20 want him back to cross him on this issue.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: It's not being represented as his testimony. You
22 misunderstand the situation. It's the source of a question. And what
23 becomes testimony depends on the answer. This is a real problem in this
24 case because the Defence have failed constantly to put to witnesses
25 points that will turn out to be controversial when the Defence witnesses
1 come here; and therefore the Prosecution are put in the invidious
2 position of having to go back to witnesses to check up and see if what's
3 being said by a subsequent witness is true or not because it was never
4 put and never challenged at the time of the original witness's evidence.
5 MR. LUKIC: There was nothing to be challenged on this matter at
6 that time. Cvetic never testified about it. Why should I challenge
7 something he never testified about?
8 JUDGE BONOMY: If you know that you're going to lead evidence
9 about the point, don't you think it's fair to give the person who's going
10 to be criticised an opportunity to comment?
11 MR. LUKIC: How am I going to know two years ago? What should I
12 have done? At that time I have never met Mr. Bogunovic.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: This is one of the problems of this case, that the
14 preparations aren't done at the right time, but that's something we're
15 going to have to cope with as we go along. But there's nothing improper
16 about further investigations in these circumstances being carried out by
17 the Prosecution and the Prosecution putting the results of these
18 investigations to witnesses for witnesses to comment. That's perfectly
19 proper. So that objection is repelled.
20 Mr. Stamp.
21 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. When you went to Kosovska Mitrovica in November 1998, did
23 Mr. Cvetic not indicate to you that it was General Lukic and
24 Mr. Mijatovic who had directed him that you were coming there to assist?
25 A. I really don't know who told Mr. Cvetic to hand in the decision.
1 I was already in Kosovska Mitrovica when my decision arrived, that is to
2 say that I had spent several days in Kosovska Mitrovica without the
3 decision. And then following that --
4 Q. I take it that your answer is that you did not hear from
5 Mr. Cvetic that it was Mr. Mijatovic and General Lukic who told him that
6 you were going to be assigned there as his deputy?
7 A. I truly wasn't present and nobody told me who had told him.
8 Q. While you were there there was another deputy, deputy chief of
9 the SUP for Kosovska Mitrovica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You went there and joined him?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were responsible for police activities or police matters
14 and duties in the field or to assist in that regard?
15 A. I worked in accordance with the regulations in force at the time
16 and in accordance with the job description of the deputy chief of
17 Kosovska Mitrovica SUP.
18 Q. Yes --
19 A. If necessary, I may -- I can explain.
20 Q. Were you told that you were there to assist in respect to police
21 activities out in the field, that was your responsibility, prime
22 responsibility, as deputy chief of the SUP?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What were your responsibilities when you went there? What were
25 you told that you were supposed to be doing down there?
1 A. My duty was to stand in for the chief of the secretariat when he
2 wasn't there and to work in accordance with instructions and tasks issued
3 to me by him. If necessary, I can enumerate everything written in the
4 documents and regulations that can be found in the ministry, but this is
5 in brief what I did.
6 Q. Were you involved in -- okay. Very well.
7 You said that General Stevanovic visited the SUP on one occasion
8 and he told you to accompany him out to the field where there was some
9 action going on. I think that's at paragraph 67 of your statement,
10 that's anti-terrorist action at Bajgora at the end of April, beginning of
11 May. What was your role when you accompanied General Stevanovic out
12 there into the field? In other words, what did he ask you to go with him
13 to do?
14 A. I received this order from my superior to go and accompany
15 General Obrad Stevanovic to the location where there was a joint activity
16 of the police and the army. As far as I was told, there was information
17 that in the Bara and Bajgora area there was a stronghold, a hospital, and
18 headquarters, and General Obrad wanted to go there to the location and I
19 accompanied him. General Obrad met up with the members of the Ministry
20 of the Interior there --
21 Q. I just --
22 A. -- the personnel that was involved in that activity.
23 Q. I just wanted to know what was your role, do you know what
24 General Obradovic [sic] expected of you?
25 A. There is no General Obradovic, but General Obrad Stevanovic
1 wanted me to take him safely there.
2 Q. Very well.
3 A. To take him safely to the location where he wanted to go, given
4 that he was not familiar with the area --
5 Q. So you were escorting --
6 A. -- and I was somebody who had spent quite some time in the area
7 at that point.
8 Q. So you were acting as the escort of General Stevanovic?
9 A. It is a custom to have one of the officers of the Ministry of the
10 Interior meet or welcome high officials of the MUP and to remain with
11 them for as long as they stay in that territory.
12 Q. Now, was this the first or the only time that you escorted
13 General Stevanovic around?
14 A. That was not the first time, but it was the first and only time
15 in the territory of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP.
16 Q. Now, if we could return to the earlier part of your statement you
17 said, I think, in paragraph 5 of your statement that there's no need for
18 the -- as far as you knew, for the SUPs to get the permission or the
19 agreement of the MUP staff to carry out tasks. Weren't there -- or
20 without showing you a document are you willing to allow that there were
21 some extraordinary tasks where the plans of the SUPs would have to be
22 submitted to the MUP staff in Pristina for approval?
23 A. I don't know that a document was sent to the MUP staff because we
24 didn't draw up any plans, or rather, we draw up plans, nothing else. A
25 secretariat draws up a plan of activities for certain activities that
1 need to be done. I explained that when Mr. Cepic put questions to me.
2 Q. Did you not have to submit plans for anti-terrorist action to the
3 MUP staff of Kosovo for approval? Now, you might not know. If you don't
4 know, say you don't know, you were deputy chief.
5 A. I don't know. I really don't know whether that was our duty; and
6 if it was, then the chief of secretariat knew about that because I worked
7 exclusively on the basis of his instructions. I wasn't the
8 decision-maker. I was somebody who made suggestions. Now, whether my
9 suggestions would be accepted or not, that was up to the person above me.
10 Q. And you would not be aware that at various meetings at the MUP
11 staff both General Stevanovic and General Lukic instructed the chiefs of
12 the SUPs and the various PJP detachments that they should submit plans to
13 the MUP staff for Kosovo for approval?
14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, we need to distinguish between activities aimed
15 at terrorism and regular activities within the secretariat where I
16 served. When it comes to regular activities within the ministry, we had
17 no duty to provide any plans except in our own specialty departments. As
18 for the plans and activities carried out by PJPs, I can't say anything
19 about that because I was not a member of a PJP.
20 Q. I see. So therefore that section of your statement at paragraph
21 5, when you said there was no need or obligation of the chief of the
22 secretariat and his subordinates to have the agreement and permission of
23 the MUP Pristina prior to carrying out their duties, you're talking about
24 the regular duties and tasks?
25 A. Correct. As for the rest, I can't say anything because I wasn't
1 a participant. I can speculate and I can give some arbitrary answers --
2 Q. Very well.
3 A. -- which is not in the -- which is not going to assist the Court.
4 Q. Very well. Also at paragraphs 4 and 79 you speak about reporting
5 to the MUP staff. At one stage you said that you were required to report
6 to the MUP staff in paragraph 4 but then you said that during the war it
7 was impossible to communicate with the staff in paragraph 79. Well, let
8 us look at the last sentence of paragraph 79. Are you saying in this
9 sentence that it was impossible to communicate with the staff by a mobile
10 telephone but it was possible to communicate otherwise?
11 A. When it comes to mobile phones, at that time we had no mobile
12 phones and everything else had been destroyed by NATO. So there was no
13 communication either with the MUP or with any other institution within
14 the Ministry of the Interior. We only had radio stations and those
15 worked under -- with great difficulty, since there was no electricity and
16 we couldn't charge batteries in order to use them and also due to a very
17 limited range of these radio stations.
18 Q. Oh, I see. So -- but you could communicate with other agencies
19 and units of the MUP as well as the MUP staff Pristina by courier and by
20 special telephone lines, couldn't you?
21 A. No. Special telephones were also connected to the regular
22 telephone lines of PTT. As for the other services of the ministry which
23 were in the territory of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, we had only courier
24 contact with them. We know that the SUP building was hit and that all
25 units were dislocated throughout the entire town of Kosovska Mitrovica
1 The conditions were extremely difficult. We had numerous problems in
2 work and coordination. All of us officers in all units had problems.
3 When I say "units," I mean organizational units, you have to bear in mind
4 that I have military education.
5 Q. During the bombing how did you communicate with the MUP staff in
6 Pristina? How were the reports sent?
7 A. I did not send any reports to the MUP staff either during the
8 bombing, before the bombing, or after the bombing.
9 Q. Yes. How were the reports sent to the MUP staff during the war?
10 Whether or not you sent them, do you know how they were sent?
11 A. When necessary, given that we were duty-bound to send information
12 to the MUP staff in Belgrade
13 covered by couriers exclusively, as far as I know. I am not a signals
15 Q. So you would not know if special telephone lines were set up
16 after the PTT building was bombed, would you?
17 A. Had there been such lines, I think I would have known about it
18 because after all, I was person number two within the secretariat. They
19 attempted to fix something, but that was very difficult, and even if it
20 existed it lasted only for a short period of time because the relay in
21 the territory of Kosovska Mitrovica was bombed on a daily basis, the
22 repeater, and generally they were bombed frequently, all repeaters were.
23 Q. Are you aware of orders from General Lukic to the chiefs of the
24 SUPs and to the head of the detachments that they were obliged to report
25 all security-related incidents to the staff? And this is during the
2 A. This information never reached me.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And you were in your office every day, were you?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, how often were you in the office during the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war we did not have
8 offices --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Where were you?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- given that --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Where were you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every six to seven days we changed
13 the location of the chief of the secretariat, and I was there next to him
14 or in a place where he ordered me to be.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: So you were always with him throughout the war,
16 more or less?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wouldn't say next to him,
18 but we would meet up in the morning and he would tell me, Today you will
19 go and tour Zubin Potok or Leposavic --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I wish if you're not going to say something,
21 you wouldn't say it. I'm only quoting back your own words to you.
22 Anyway, you tell us you had no idea that these SUPs were supposed to
23 report to the MUP staff, that's your position, you had no idea about
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when it comes to
1 reporting, I wrote in my statement and I also said how the staff in
2 Pristina was informed and about what matters.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Just answer my question, please. You had no idea
4 that the SUP was supposed to report to the MUP staff; is that correct?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again the MUP staff
6 is something that exists in Belgrade
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm referring -- I'm sorry if I haven't made it
8 clear, I'm referring to the MUP staff in Pristina. You're saying you had
9 no idea that the SUP was supposed to report to the MUP staff in Pristina?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We obviously have not understood
11 each other. The MUP staff was informed, the one in Belgrade, and then
12 information only or on an only-information basis, that was the duty with
13 respect to the MUP staff in Pristina. That's what I wrote, and the
14 Prosecutor asked me how we sent the reports and I explained to him that
15 there were no telephone lines and that I was not a signals person and I
16 didn't know how this was sent. As far as I know, every report that was
17 sent either to Belgrade
18 bombing was sent via a courier --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I don't want to -- I'm not interested in
20 that part of the matter. I'm interested in what your obligations were,
21 and you should have understood that from the questions. Now tell me,
22 what was the point of the MUP staff in Pristina?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can't speak about
24 something that is not within my competence. The MUP staff did not fall
25 under Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, that was a body that was above me so I
1 can't say anything about that.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this time am I right in thinking you can't
3 think of any reason why there was a MUP staff in Pristina?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're correct.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP: Could we have P1989.
8 Q. Here we have the minutes of a meeting at the MUP staff on the
9 14th of April, 1999, that's Pristina MUP staff. You can see from the
10 first page that present was General Lukic --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, what's the point in asking a witness who
12 knows absolutely nothing about the MUP staff about the MUP staff?
13 MR. STAMP: I wasn't going to ask him about the MUP staff
14 directly, I was going to ask him about what I was asking him about
15 before, the obligation to report.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do we need this document? He's told you what
17 the obligation to report was. As far as he's concerned he didn't know
18 what any obligations were and he told you that they reported some
19 information and that's all they did. What more do you need to know?
20 MR. STAMP: The witness I think has gone further than that and is
21 suggesting that there was no obligation as far as he knew to report.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, he didn't know of an obligation is what he
24 MR. STAMP: And he also said as deputy chief he would know about
25 circumstances surrounding --
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, well, what more do you need? This is a man
2 who doesn't know he's supposed to report, we've got that much, but he did
3 report from time to time. What more do you need to --
4 MR. STAMP: Well, let me ask a specific question without showing
5 the document.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: All right.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. Do you know that General Lukic specifically commanded all of
9 these people you see here as present at this meeting except General
10 Obradovic [sic], who was a superior, to report all security-related
11 events to him? Do you know that?
12 General Obrad Stevanovic, I meant. Thank you very much, counsel.
13 Did Mr. Cvetic tell you that General Lukic ordered them to report
14 security-related matters to him and the staff; if so, your answer is yes,
15 if not it is no.
16 A. I've already said that Colonel Adamovic made me aware of that
17 while I was in Djakovica, yes, that I should inform the MUP in Belgrade
18 and --
19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Pristina...
20 A. -- CC the MUP in Pristina. That's what I said just now, that is
21 to say --
22 Q. Very well --
23 A. -- that when I arrived and when I was given the assignment of
24 reporting at the Djakovica SUP the then-chief of secretariat told me what
25 my duties and responsibilities were there, and he said to me that all
1 information pertaining to what happened in the territory of the
2 secretariat, as done in my home secretariat, should go to the DOC and
3 that we should also, by way of information, send this to the Pristina
4 staff as well.
5 Q. And apart from that, reporting, copying the Pristina staff, you
6 know of no other reporting to the Pristina staff; is that what you are
8 A. Obviously you and I are not understanding each other. There is
9 daily information, periodical information, monthly information, biannual
10 information, periodical information going to the MUP, that is what I CC'd
11 the staff in Pristina on. All other reports that we compiled within the
12 secretariats were sent only along the lines of work. We were not
13 duty-bound to send those reports to the MUP staff in Pristina in -- by
14 way of information or in any other way. If you have other questions I
15 may clarify, but it seems that we understand each other now.
16 Q. I'll just take your answer that you don't know.
17 Can we discuss briefly issue of the reserve police officers.
18 When the reserve police squads were being formed, did General Lukic and
19 the MUP staff issue a plan or plans in respect to their organization?
20 A. At that time I was not in the area of Kosovo and Metohija. I
21 arrived on the 20th of June --
22 Q. Very well --
23 A. -- in the area of the Djakovica SUP.
24 Q. When they were being formed, wherever you were, did General Lukic
25 not issue plans in respect to their organization?
1 A. My first encounter with reserve police squads was in the
2 Djakovica SUP, and that is what my chief told me about.
3 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, if you know if General Lukic issued plans in
4 respect to the organization of these reserve police squads, just tell me
5 yes; if you do not, say no. Do you know about that?
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. Okay. Now --
8 A. I do not know of General Lukic issuing such an order.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, we need to find a place to interrupt.
10 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could do so now, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: How much longer do you envisage being?
12 MR. STAMP: I think perhaps I could take the rest of the
13 session -- of the next session.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: We won't allow you to do that, I'm afraid. You
15 normally get an hour with a witness like this, who's presented on a 92
16 ter basis and you haven't suggested any reason why we should extend that.
17 You've had about 40 minutes so perhaps you would make a point of
18 completing within half an hour.
19 We'll resume at 6.00.
20 Mr. Bogunovic, we have to have a break at this stage for half an
21 hour. Please leave the courtroom with the usher.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 MR. STAMP: Your Honour, it was my understanding that you have
24 one hour of cross-examination with a witness who has given a 26-page 92
25 bis statement. I just want to know the Rules because I came here with a
1 different understanding.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: What was your understanding?
3 MR. STAMP: My understanding is that the time spent with a
4 witness with so much information was certainly in excess of one hour, I
5 can't give you a precise time, but I did not know there is a one-hour
6 limit. If there is, I am prepared to comply with it because it is the
7 responsibility of the Court to --
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's a guide-line that has been in operation
9 since the case began.
10 MR. STAMP: One hour for cross-examination?
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Where it's a 92 ter --
12 MR. STAMP: Very well.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: -- witness presented on that basis. We've always
14 said that if good reason was shown we would extend these periods. But so
15 far this cross-examination has been virtually unproductive and doesn't on
16 the face of it appear to be worth pursuing unless you can start focussing
17 on issues that really are going to increase our knowledge of the
19 MR. STAMP: Very well.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: And if you do that and you create interest and
21 demonstrate that there are issues that require to be explored the
22 position may be different, but that's not the message that's coming over
23 so far.
24 Anyway, we will resume at 6.00.
25 MR. STAMP: Well, perhaps before we close the issue I wish to
1 address the issue when we resume because there are issues which I wish to
2 cover in the half-hour --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we've wasted an awful lot of time on stuff
4 that's really been --
5 MR. STAMP: Well, that's a matter of your judgement, but perhaps
6 if that could be indicated at some point in the course of when I'm asking
7 the questions, then I could address you on it and I could tell you
8 exactly where I'm going.
9 Anyway, I don't want to get involved in any argument about this.
10 I should just express that I am surprised; however, I will abide by the
11 ruling in respect to the one hour, but I'm surprised about one hour.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: In the order which was made in relation to the use
13 of time in October 2006 what we said was that: "For witnesses whose
14 evidence primarily and in accordance with the practice of the Prosecution
15 followed in the trial so far is brought pursuant to Rule 92 ter, the
16 Prosecution shall have a maximum of 30 minutes to conduct both direct and
17 re-examination. The Defence collectively shall have a maximum of 60
18 minutes for cross-examination of such witnesses. The Defence shall
19 consult among themselves to decide on the apportionment of time," and
20 when we established the regime for the Defence case we said that would
21 apply mutatis mutandis; if it did, you wouldn't even have 60 minutes.
22 It's through our interpretation that it's only right the Prosecution
23 should have that 60-minute time that that has been the practice we've
24 followed so far without enforcing it rigidly. But I'm surprised that
25 you're not aware of that rule, Mr. Stamp.
1 MR. STAMP: Well, I'll have to refresh myself. Clearly, I had
2 forgotten. If it's one hour, it's one hour, as I indicated.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Unless there are good reasons for it being longer,
4 and we shall see if that situation develops.
5 We shall now resume at five past 6.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Are you aware, sir, that General Lukic issued orders for the
12 organization of the RPOs in 1998?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Are you aware that the RPO squad were available for use in plans
15 made by the MUP staff Pristina?
16 A. Could you please repeat that question.
17 Q. Are you aware that the RPOs, the reserve police squads, were
18 available for use in plans that were issued by the MUP staff Pristina?
19 A. I don't understand what you mean by "use." I don't know about
21 Q. For deployment -- okay. You don't know about that.
22 A. I can respond, if I may, why the RPO were established, if that is
23 what --
24 Q. You have already done that in your statement, sir. I have not
25 asked you that. Now, General -- sorry, not general, Mr. Cvetic told us
1 that the RPOs existed during the war while he was in Kosovska Mitrovica
2 and they participated in expelling people from their homes. You are
3 saying that all of them were disbanded. I would like us to look at
4 P1996, and I will ask you a couple of questions about that. P1996 is a
5 minute of the MUP staff meeting for the 7th of May, 1999. Do you have it
6 there? If we could scroll down on the B/C/S copy a little bit. Can you
7 see at number, well, you don't need to scroll down, at number 5 that you
8 were present as deputy chief for the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP?
9 A. I never attended a single meeting of the staff in Pristina except
10 for when I was promoted on the fast track, and I came towards the end of
11 the meeting when I was handed over a decision on appointment -- on an
12 extraordinary appointment to a higher rank.
13 Q. Well, that is not precisely what I was asking you, but I think I
14 need to explore that answer a little bit. When did you attend this
15 meeting of the MUP staff in Pristina where you were promoted, when, that
16 is date or approximate date?
17 A. I am of the view that this is the date when I was present but
18 only at the end.
19 Q. You mean the 7th of May?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Now, who handed over to you this decision on your appointment to
22 a higher rank at this meeting?
23 A. Obrad Stevanovic, General Obrad Stevanovic.
24 Q. What rank was that?
25 A. I was promoted from lieutenant-colonel to lieutenant-colonel. It
1 sounds a bit funny but that's the way it was. The reason was the
2 following: While I was in Kosovo and Metohija I had the rank of major.
3 My superiors who sent a proposal for my extraordinary promotion did not
4 know that I already had that rank.
5 Q. Oh, so you were --
6 A. And a rank is obtained on the basis of a particular job. You
7 could not get a higher rank unless you have a job providing for that
9 Q. So you were officially promoted to lieutenant-colonel at that
10 time. Was it normal for persons to receive documents in respect to their
11 promotion and appointments at MUP staff Pristina meetings?
12 A. As for extraordinary promotions, in the Ministry of the Interior
13 this was the first time that someone received an extraordinary promotion.
14 It was the three of us from the ministry that were promoted. That was
15 the first time as far as I know in the ministry that someone received
16 this fast track promotion.
17 Q. Well, do you know why it was done at a MUP staff Pristina
19 A. My assumption is that it was done because of the presence of high
20 officers from the Ministry of the Interior, that is to say the assistant
21 minister, Obrad Stevanovic, and the chief of the sector.
22 Q. Were the other two persons who received this fast track promotion
23 present at this meeting?
24 A. No, all three of us were down there at the restaurant, in a
25 restaurant, and after that we were invited to come in at the end.
1 Q. And that was your only role you played in that meeting, to
2 receive your promotion?
3 A. My only role at the staff meeting and my presence at any MUP
4 staff in Pristina was that.
5 Q. Very well. Let me get back to what I was asking you about. You
6 will see here at page 5 of the English at the bottom and page -- the top
7 of page 5 of the B/C/S that you gave a report at this meeting including
8 very detailed figures as to what was happening in your territory. Don't
9 you recall doing that, giving quite an elaborate report including precise
10 numbers as to what was happening in Kosovska Mitrovica?
11 A. I've already said to you that at this meeting I never spoke,
12 neither did I speak at any meetings at the staff. I think --
13 Q. So therefore --
14 A. -- and I don't know who kept minutes, but I think that since the
15 chiefs of SUPs were placed, the person who kept the minutes didn't know
16 the name of the chief of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP and seeing me there
17 he put my name into the minutes. As for the situation in the territory
18 of Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, I can give a comment concerning each item
19 individually because I attended meetings held by the chief of the SUP.
20 Q. I am not asking you about that. You are saying as explanation
21 that the person didn't know the name of the chief, so seeing you there,
22 he puts your name, but he describes it you look at it, deputy chief. You
23 don't recall making those representations at the meeting, sir?
24 A. It was only on that day that I received my promotion. I'm under
25 oath here and I state with full responsibility that I never spoke at any
1 staff meetings, I never uttered anything, I never took the floor.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Looking at what's recorded under your name, can
3 you confirm to us that the information recorded is accurate?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I haven't read this, could
5 this be zoomed in so that I can look at it and then tell you.
6 This information here is familiar.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp.
8 MR. STAMP:
9 Q. Is it correct?
10 A. As to the figures, I can't say they are fully correct, but in
11 general, yes.
12 Q. The other persons mentioned there as chiefs of SUPs in
13 Kosovo - if we could go back to the front page - did you know these
14 people, Colonel Bogoljub Janicevic, Colonel Vlahovic, Milan Stanojevic,
16 A. Some yes, some no.
17 Q. Do you recall seeing them at this meeting?
18 A. I came to that meeting where I was handed in the decision on my
19 promotion with my chief. I know some of the people, some I don't know.
20 I spoke to some of the people before the meeting and most of them
21 congratulated me on my extraordinary promotion, they did that after the
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind us who your chief was at that time.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vucina Janicijevic.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
1 Mr. Stamp.
2 MR. STAMP:
3 Q. Did you hear the reports and the instructions that were issued at
4 that meeting?
5 A. On the following day, yes, from my chief of the SUP because it is
6 customary, or rather, it is a practice to have the chief come to a
7 meeting and inform his associates about the tasks that need to be
9 Q. Well, your chief is not recorded as being present there. There
10 is a Janicevic, but that was Bogoljub from Pristina. Your chief was not
11 at that meeting.
12 A. Sir, I've already said once that I attended the meeting at the
13 very end when the decision on my promotion was given me. My chief,
14 Vucina Janicijevic, was present at the meeting and he presented the
15 information that you asked me about and I said that I know about that and
16 I can comment on that. But I myself did not make any representations.
17 Had I done that I see no reason why I wouldn't have mentioned that here.
18 Why would I comment on the information presented by my chief?
19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... answering my question
20 directly. If we could look at the last page of that document, please,
21 1996, you will see - and the last page of the English as well,
22 please - you will see that General Lukic in closing the meeting said:
23 "Members of the RPOs may not wear police uniforms and this must be
24 prohibited immediately."
25 Now, this indicates that RPOs existed at that time and that
1 General Lukic was aware of their existence. Did you hear that said by
2 General Lukic or did your superior tell you about that instruction in
3 respect to the RPOs?
4 A. I didn't hear that at the meeting because after the meeting was
5 over we who had been promoted on an extraordinary basis at the meeting
6 held in Kosovska Mitrovica, the chief, Vucina Janicijevic, told us that
7 we needed to check whether there was a single RPO that hadn't been
8 disbanded and whether there was a single uniform -- member wearing a
9 uniform in the populated area since we had already been conveyed this
10 information about the RPOs being disbanded.
11 Q. So you are now saying that you were told to check. So when you
12 checked were there -- well, did you find any RPOs in Kosovska Mitrovica
13 SUP area?
14 A. Sir, I'm not the person who could check all of that. At the
15 meeting chaired by the chief of the secretariat there were people in
16 attendance who had the area under their control. They provided
17 information, and as far as I know it was said that there was not a single
18 RPO out there except for some individual cases where a citizen may have
19 kept a part of the uniform that had been out of use by the Ministry of
20 the Interior. When I say --
21 Q. Very well --
22 A. -- "out of use," that means that it wasn't a valid uniform
23 anymore because uniforms had changed.
24 Q. If we could move on. You went in late April/early May with
25 General Stevanovic to the area where the Bajgora operation was being
1 conducted and you saw -- later on in the day you saw a convoy. Where was
2 it -- when I say a convoy I mean a troop, a group of refugees. Where was
3 it you saw these refugees first?
4 A. In my statement I said that I had been ordered to go to the town
5 of Vucitrn, which is an OUP within the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, because
6 there was a large group of people there who had left --
7 Q. Mr. Witness, just tell me where, that's a place, name the place
8 on the road where you saw this group of refugees.
9 A. That's precisely what I was about to tell you. It's an
10 intersection of roads, Vucitrn-Pristina and Samodreza-Pristina -- no, I
11 apologise, Vucitrn.
12 Q. How many refugees?
13 A. Many.
14 Q. Can you approximate?
15 A. Since I'm a person who provided security at many sports matches,
16 I would give you an estimate of 15 to 20.000.
17 Q. Now, there were members of the OUP, the O-U-P, Vucitrn that
18 accompanied them to the agricultural complex or persuaded them to go to
19 the agricultural complex. How were these members of the Vucitrn OUP
21 A. Members of the Vucitrn OUP wore a regular blue uniform.
22 Q. Well, what do you mean in paragraph 68 where you say you were the
23 only one who wore a blue uniform?
24 A. Paragraph 68 pertains to my stay in Bajgora with the members of a
25 PJP. If you read it carefully you'll see it.
1 Q. Now, you said you were ordered to reconnoitre and report on this
2 convoy. Who ordered you to do so?
3 A. Chief of the secretariat, Vucina Janicijevic, who was the only
4 one authorised to issue such an order.
5 Q. And how long did you remain with this convoy?
6 A. I started telling you about that and you interrupted me. I spent
7 about one hour with the refugees convincing them that they were safe --
8 Q. I just asked you how long now. You spent one hour with the
9 refugees in all?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you go to the -- the correctional facility, this Smrekovnica
12 correctional facility that day?
13 A. Not on that day, and I never went to Smrekovnica, to the prison
14 there, but on that day I passed by it because I went back to the SUP,
15 that is to say to the location where I was.
16 Q. No, you said that one of the reasons why you said that people
17 were mistreated or killed at that facility was because there was a
18 register of the persons who were arrested there. Do you know where that
19 register is or where that was kept?
20 MR. LUKIC: I would object at this point, Your Honour, because it
21 appears to my learned friend is suggesting that the witness said that
22 people were mistreated and killed.
23 MR. STAMP: Well, if that was the case perhaps I misspoke.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Where is this, Mr. Stamp?
25 MR. STAMP: This is line 13, clearly I misspoke.
1 Q. You are saying, sir, that there is a register of the persons who
2 were kept at the facility, and that is one of the reasons why you say
3 people were not mistreated and killed in the facility. Do you know where
4 the register is kept?
5 A. I work for the Ministry of the Interior. The prison belongs to a
6 different ministry, to the Ministry of Justice, I'm not sure exactly what
7 it's called.
8 Q. So you wouldn't know --
9 A. So that's who you need to direct your question at.
10 Q. So does your answer mean that you don't know where it's kept?
11 You can say I don't know, you know, you don't need to --
12 MR. LUKIC: The witness answered the question, it's not recorded,
13 but the witness said: You should address Ministry of Justice.
14 MR. STAMP: That's not an ...
15 Q. But your police officers -- I take it you mean you don't know
16 where it is kept. Your police officers or police officers from your SUP
17 were allowed to enter that correctional facility to interrogate
18 prisoners, weren't they?
19 A. Members of the OKP asked for approval from the court in order to
20 be able to talk to them. A patrol as we call them in the police was sent
21 consisting of members of the O KP and crime technicians with the prior
22 approval, and that was the only way for them to enter the premises of the
23 prison, not just this prison, any other prison.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, where is the reference to this
1 MR. STAMP: I think it was used, the word "register" was used as
2 a word but in a context that indicates that there was a register. It's
3 in paragraph 87.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, 87, I'm at 67, sorry. Please continue.
5 MR. STAMP:
6 Q. Did you know -- to move on, did you know Agim Hajrizi personally?
7 You spoke about him in paragraph 88 of your statement. Did you know him
9 A. I never communicated with the gentleman, but he was mentioned
10 quite often. His name was often mentioned at meetings that I attended,
11 these meetings that were chaired by the chief of SUP or somebody else,
12 and I always had -- I always heard good things about that man.
13 Q. You are saying that he was an opponent of the KLA. That view is
14 not based on your personal association with him?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Very well. Do you know a police -- time is limited --
17 A. [No interpretation].
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness.
19 MR. STAMP:
20 Q. Did you know a policeman in your SUP called Nenad Pavicevic,
21 P-a-v-i-c, with a full diacritic, e-v-i-c with a half diacritic,
23 A. SUP Mitrovica had about 2.000 policemen, so I cannot remember
24 that name, but if there is a particular incident involved perhaps you
25 could remind me and then I'll see.
1 Q. Do you know that he was convicted by the interim court set up by
2 the UN in Kosovo in 2000 in absentia for the murder of Mr. Hajrizi, one
3 of your -- one of the police officers associated with your SUP? Do you
4 know that?
5 A. I spent only seven, or rather, eight months in the Kosovska
6 Mitrovica SUP after I left --
7 Q. [Indiscernible].
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you. You also made various references to 101 references,
10 it is noted here, to 6D614, that's a document I think you were shown by
11 the Defence. Maybe I should refer you to where you have done it in your
12 statement. Maybe have a look at paragraph [sic] 57 of your statement and
13 the succeeding paragraph. You make various references to this document.
14 But before I ask you about these documents, at one of the references,
15 6D614, page 57, item 84, that you made it is stated here that in respect
16 to the killing on Lazar Street of Agim Hajrizi, the bodies were
17 identified as Agim Hajrizi, his wife Nazmija Hajrizi, and their child
18 Iljir Hajrizi. Were these the people who were killed?
19 A. I was not on the actual spot. The operatives from the criminal
20 police and the crime technicians were there. There's no reason for me
21 not to trust them because a record was compiled on the basis of which the
22 corpses were identified.
23 Q. Well, I'm just asking you about the record from 6D614 which you
24 have made many -- 101 references to --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Which paragraph is this in? I can't find it in
1 paragraph 57.
2 MR. STAMP: It's 6D614, page 57 in the English, paragraph 84.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And you say that's in paragraph 57 of this
5 MR. STAMP: No, Your Honour, this is in paragraph -- referred
6 to --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's what we have so far --
8 MR. STAMP: In paragraph 88 of statement.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: 88.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that in my statement.
11 MR. STAMP:
12 Q. No, no, you referred to a document in your statement and the
13 document is before you now, and you see at item 84 and I think the
14 wrong --
15 A. It's Pec.
16 Q. Wrong -- excuse me --
17 A. I'm not an employee of Pec.
18 Q. Excuse me. The -- this is not the corresponding item 84.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: We need page 57, paragraph 84. There's one -- the
20 English is Kosovska Mitrovica.
21 MR. STAMP: The English is correct, but this is not the -- and I
22 think now we have the correct B/C/S.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. I just want --
1 MR. LUKIC: One thing --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, you can tell me after we've finished the
4 MR. LUKIC: Translation issue.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, we'll come back it.
6 Please continue, Mr. Stamp.
7 MR. STAMP:
8 Q. Can you read the first paragraph of this item 84, please.
9 A. "On the 24th/25th of March, 1999, Skenderi Plana (civilian)
10 reported that in Tsar Lazar Street number 7 there are three corpses
11 identified as those of Hajrizi Agim, his wife, Hajrizi Nazmija, and their
12 child Hajrizi Iljir who had been killed" --
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated].
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
16 MR. LUKIC: What the witness read, it's not what the witness
17 read. It's different.
18 MR. STAMP: Can I ask the translator to translate on the basis of
19 what he said and not --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That is exactly what we
21 did on the basis of what he was reading.
22 MR. STAMP: Well --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your complaint, Mr. Lukic?
24 MR. LUKIC: Line 4 of the text says mother, not wife, in B/C/S.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Can the interpreter assist us on that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
2 THE INTERPRETER: His mother.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: So the interpretation was correct, the witness was
4 wrong, that's been established. It should be mother.
5 Let's continue, Mr. Stamp.
6 MR. STAMP: Thanks.
7 Q. Now, did you -- you said that you weren't involved in that
8 particular investigation. Did you write any official reports in respect
9 to these items that you have referred to from 6D614, from this document
10 that you were shown?
11 A. As far as I can see in this case the investigating judge was in
12 charge of the proceedings --
13 Q. No, no, stop --
14 A. -- and, and --
15 Q. I have to stop you there. You said enough about this case. I'm
16 just asking you, in respect to all of these references that you make to
17 this document that you were shown by the attorneys for Mr. Lukic, did you
18 write any reports for any of them that you referred to, any official
19 reports? Were you personally involved in these investigations?
20 A. I'm not an investigating organ and there is no need for me to
21 write up anything concerning the investigation.
22 Q. That means no, you weren't involved in these investigations?
23 A. I was not involved.
24 Q. Very well.
25 A. I always say that for that there is a field of work that is
1 covered by certain people.
2 Q. So basically --
3 A. I conduct analyses.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: So when you refer to 6D614 or sections from it in
5 your statement, is that simply because you've read them? That's the
6 source of your knowledge?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. My source is the fact
8 that I was on the spot, in Kosovska Mitrovica I mean, where my
9 subordinates wrote reports about the incidents that occurred on different
10 days, and on the basis of that I included that in my statement because I
11 remember about these incidents and I know. But in most cases I was not
12 present, I was not on the spot because had I gone to all the scenes I
13 would be -- I would have been a person who was only involved in on-site
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bogunovic, please listen to the questions and
16 just answer what you're asked. Does that mean that you know about these
17 incidents through reading the reports?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Stamp, now are you about finished?
20 MR. STAMP: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
22 Mr. Lukic, in paragraph 96 of this statement there is reference
23 to an exhibit 3D181, which I notice is produced in e-court as a whole
24 book although you're relying on only one page of that book.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we need only that one page.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, would you please scan the page and the cover
2 page of the book and substitute them for the whole book and withdraw the
3 book, and meanwhile that exhibit will be marked for identification.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, Mr. Bogunovic, what is your current
8 A. I am now employed in PP Zlatica AD Lazarevo, which is an
9 agricultural company.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Now, why did you leave the police?
11 A. Does that matter to this Court? If necessary, I can say what the
12 reason was, it is of an economic nature.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying it was your personal choice to
14 leave the police?
15 A. At my personal request I left on the 15th of February, 2005
16 is to say at my personal request.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Now, in paragraphs 18 to 20 of your
18 statement you tell us about the formation of local Albanian security
19 groups in villages. How many of these were actually formed?
20 A. I can say that as I arrived in the territory of the SUP of
21 Djakovica and since I knew certain persons of Albanian ethnicity who are
22 my friends, I managed through them to deal with quite a few people who
23 were involved in the local security. And thanks to the Catholic priest
24 who was a priest --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Please just answer my question. How many of these
1 village groups were actually formed?
2 A. About 56 in Djakovica, 56 or 57. There must be a report, but
3 let's not waste time now as I would leaf through this.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Did you mean the Djakovica town or do you mean the
6 A. Everything I'm saying, I'm saying at the level of the
7 secretariat, regardless of whether it's Mitrovica or Djakovica.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Now, could you have in front of you paragraph 42 of your
10 statement where you say: "It was necessary to engage a large number of
11 MUP members from Serbia
12 Kosovo, "in order to protect the population."
13 First of all, what period are you referring to?
14 A. The period of my stay in Kosovo and Metohija.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, this paragraph refers only to Kosovska
16 Mitrovica. Do you mean it to also cover Djakovica?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: And who were the large number of MUP members from
20 A. Could you please repeat your question.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Who were the large number of MUP members from
23 A. These were regular policemen who were employed in the
25 JUDGE BONOMY: And by that do you mean throughout the seven
1 secretariats in Kosovo?
2 A. I can speak only of the two where I was, yes.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: And how many police officers were imported from
4 across the Kosovo border into the two secretariats where you worked?
5 A. They were not brought in. They applied when there were job
6 vacancies that were publicised, and it is on the basis of these vacancy
7 announcements that they were employed in the Djakovica and Mitrovica SUPs
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, paragraph 42 doesn't make any sense if
10 that's what it's meant to mean. That's not what it says, Mr. Bogunovic.
11 It says that because the MUP forces regularly in Kosovska Mitrovica were
12 so heavily engaged in their work it was necessary to bring in
13 reinforcements. That's how it reads. Are you saying that's wrong?
14 A. No, no, no, fine, fine. I misspoke. This pertains to a group of
15 policemen, or rather, the policemen who came from the PJPs, that's what
16 it is about in paragraph 52, that came to the area of the secretariat.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it's paragraph 42 I'm looking at, not 52.
18 And if you make sure you've got the right page in front of you in your
19 statement. In Kosovska Mitrovica what do you mean by a large number of
20 MUP members? How many are you talking about?
21 A. In the area of the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica, a detachment was
22 engaged, a B variant detachment at that.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: How many men?
24 A. Between 400 and 600 men depending on what the personnel level is
25 when they arrive in the area.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And can you tell me where they came from, which
2 PJP group they were?
3 A. In the area of the SUP of Djakovica it was the Novi Sad
4 Detachment, and in Kosovska Mitrovica it was the Uzice Detachment, one
5 was the 8th and the other one was the 35th. Please don't take my word
6 for it, for the numbers, that is, I'm not a PJP member so I may be making
7 a mistake in terms of the numbers. But some came from the area of
8 Vojvodina and others came from the area of metropolitan Uzice.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: And when you say 4 to 600 men a detachment, you
10 mean 4 to 600 men in Djakovica and 4 to 600 men in Kosovska Mitrovica?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: We'll have to break there now because we've
13 reached the end of our time for today. I have a few more questions to
14 ask you which I shall complete tomorrow.
15 Mr. Lukic, can you give me an estimate of how long your
16 re-examination might be?
17 MR. LUKIC: Five minutes.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will resume the hearing tomorrow afternoon,
19 Mr. Bogunovic. Meanwhile, it's vital that you have no communication with
20 anyone, anyone at all, about any aspect of the evidence in this case, and
21 that means evidence given or evidence yet to come in the case, and you
22 should return here ready to continue your evidence at 2.15 tomorrow
24 Now would you please leave the courtroom with the usher.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will act in
1 accordance with your order.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of
5 April, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.