1 Friday, 11 April 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Sainovic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 We shall now continue with the evidence of Mr. Bogunovic.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE BONOMY: Your evidence will continue in a moment. Please
12 bear in mind that the solemn declaration which you gave yesterday that
13 you would speak the truth continues to apply to your evidence today.
14 WITNESS: NEBOJSA BOGUNOVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you have your statement in front of you?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you look, please, at paragraph 65.
20 A. I have had a look.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: You refer to Albanian political leaders calling on
22 Albanian civilians to leave Kosovo, distributing flyers. Are you
23 referring there to political leaders in Albania?
24 A. No, Your Honour. It pertains to Albanians in the area of Kosovo
25 and Metohija or, more specifically, in the area of the SUP of Kosovska
1 Mitrovica. Since --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: That's fine --
3 A. -- in Kosovska Mitrovica policemen --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: I will now ask you any supplementary question I
5 wish. I don't suppose -- do you have an example of such a flyer?
6 A. I don't have one on me but I have seen one. If necessary, I can
7 explain what it looked like.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you identify the political leaders who were
9 responsible for this?
10 A. The leaders did not sign that flyer, but it was a red flyer with
11 a two-headed black eagle on it and there was something written in
12 Albanian. I don't know Albanian but my colleagues translated it for me
13 so I can roughly tell you what the content of the flyer was but I cannot
14 say very specifically because I don't understand Albanian myself.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: So these were anonymous documents with no
16 indication of their source, other than the fact that they were written in
18 A. In Albanian and with Albanian emblems. That is what led me to
19 believe that it was written by Albanians.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you now have before you paragraph 54.
21 You've quoted a number of examples there of proceedings -- criminal
22 proceedings being taken against police officers and also disciplinary
23 proceedings. Do you know the outcome of any of these cases?
24 A. As for these examples that I gave, they were processed as far as
25 the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica was concerned and they were handed over to
1 the prosecutor's office in charge, and that belonged then to their
2 province of work. I was not a person who could go into the work of the
3 prosecutor's office and the judiciary. One more thing that I can add,
4 after I left Kosovska Mitrovica I returned to my home secretariat and I
5 worked in the area of the SUP of Novi Sad so I wasn't really very
6 interested in this because my work geared me towards other things that I
7 was authorised to do at the time.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Lukic, any re-examination?
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you, but I'm afraid it would
11 be a bit longer than I promised yesterday because I had the whole night
12 to go through the testimony. So probably I will finish in 15, 20
14 JUDGE BONOMY: That's all right. Thank you.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.
17 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.
18 Q. You remember that my learned friend the Prosecutor said that the
19 OTP here in The Hague
20 that you were appointed deputy chief of the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica
21 either by Miroslav Mijatovic or Sreten Lukic?
22 A. Of course I remember that, it happened only yesterday, I know
24 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions only in relation to that.
25 So we're talking about 1998. First of all, who was it that appointed you
1 deputy chief of SUP in Djakovica?
2 A. I wrote in my statement that it was the chief of the public
3 security sector that appointed me.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. STAMP: That last question was asked and answered before. In
6 any case, what I had indicated yesterday was that it was Mr. Mijatovic
7 and General Lukic who communicated to Mr. Cvetic that the witness was
8 being transferred to Kosovska Mitrovica, not that they appointed him.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I think that may be the case, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] In order to do away with any doubt I'm going to
12 ask you the following --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there interpretation at the moment, Mr. Fila?
14 MR. FILA: [Interpretation] Yes, there is now but yesterday what
15 was interpreted was wrong, it wasn't the way Mr. Stamp said it because I
16 listened to the Serbian interpretation and what we heard was that
17 Ljubinko Cvetic said that he was appointed either by Mijatovic or Lukic,
18 and actually Mr. Stamp said what he said right now. That is why we have
19 this problem now. Thank you and sorry about that.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] As I said, in order to do away any doubt due to
24 the interpretation that you received, was there a possibility in 1998 for
25 you to be appointed deputy chief of SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica by either
1 Miroslav Mijatovic or Sreten Lukic?
2 A. No, since they did not have the authority to do so. High
3 officers were appointed by the chief of the sector and all lower-ranking
4 officers and employees in the secretariat, once approval is received, are
5 appointed by the chief of the secretariat.
6 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to move on to something that my
7 colleague Mr. Stamp asked you, too, that was page 67, line 21. What he
8 put to you was that Mr. Cvetic testified before this Court to the effect
9 that members of the reserve police squads were there during the war and
10 that while he was in Kosovska Mitrovica they expelled people from their
12 I'm going to ask you the following: Do you remember whether with
13 regard to this problem there was any discussion in the morning at
14 collegium meetings of the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica? So were members of
15 the RPOs expelling people from their homes in Kosovska Mitrovica?
16 A. Never did anyone at a single collegium state in my presence the
17 words that you just uttered, that Albanians or anyone else was being
18 expelled from the SUP of Djakovica or the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica
19 areas. It's not only Chief Cvetic but all the officers as far as I know
20 through my attendance, and I attended quite a few places.
21 Q. When talking to your then-chief, Ljubinko Cvetic, did you ever
22 hear that he criticised this kind of behaviour of the RPO, the members of
23 the RPO?
24 A. With Mr. Cvetic I spent even my free time because we were staying
25 at the same place and I never heard of any such thing from Mr. Cvetic,
1 and once again may I said and I never heard of anything like that from
2 anyone else either.
3 Q. Did you ever hear from Mr. Ljubinko Cvetic that he proposed
4 taking certain measures due to such conduct on the part of members of
5 reserve police squads?
6 A. No, never.
7 Q. Thank you. My colleague Mr. Cepic asked you yesterday what the
8 activity plan of police action was supposed to contain, and you explained
9 that. In relation to that I'm going to ask you the following: With
10 regard to the implementation of activities such as the arrest of
11 terrorists or any other activities, did you ever draw on maps what these
12 activities would be?
13 A. As for drawing on maps, the Ministry of the Interior does not do
14 that on maps. That is done on sketches. There is a problem there
15 obviously. We officers who graduated from military academies, when we
16 joined the ranks of the Ministry of the Interior we wished to transfer to
17 the police some of our military terminology too; however, military and
18 police vocabulary and lexicon is not one and the same thing. So there is
19 a bit of a misunderstanding. Certain officers like myself probably used
20 a bit more military vocabulary and we used them in our documents, but for
21 the most part police officers who were above us corrected us because we
22 compiled plans of activity for given activities that were supposed to be
23 taken by the Ministry of the Interior or certain individuals. In the
24 military this is termed differently.
25 Also, we always drew sketches of the scene which always
1 accompanied the criminal report or the letter or whatever was sent to the
2 public prosecutor, or rather, to the court afterwards that could be used
3 in proceedings before courts of law. The sketch was always on a very
4 accurate scale due to the work that was done by the Ministry of the
6 Q. What did you make these sketches on?
7 A. Clean paper, a sheet of paper. We did not have topographic maps.
8 I see that maps are referred to, topographic maps, but obviously just to
9 mark a particular place where something happened, but the Court is
10 certainly aware that with regard to any incident one has to know the
11 exact place where it occurred. With the exception of us who graduated
12 from military academies, no other members of the Ministry of the Interior
13 can read maps or are professionally well-versed in dealing with maps.
14 Q. My colleague Mr. Cepic also showed you a document, 5D1428, so
15 could we please call up in e-court page 3 of this document.
16 A. I don't have the document in front of me.
17 Q. Can you see what this is about?
18 A. This is a document that was written in the Pristina SUP,
19 information about the activities of the Ministry of the Interior --
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in the area of Kosovska
22 Mitrovica --
23 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I'm not mistaken I
24 think that I did not display this document to this witness, I showed it
25 to the previous witness, Lieutenant-Colonel Adamovic, if I'm not
1 mistaken, if I'm not mistaken. My assistant is looking it up right now.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, I have no note of it in your
3 cross-examination of this witness.
4 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So, Mr. Lukic --
6 MR. LUKIC: I think obviously I did the search and didn't check
7 who answered.
8 Q. [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you without a document.
9 MR. LUKIC: Could I ask for this document to be removed from the
11 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember being asked about what you
12 planned and how you planned it? Do you remember that in Kosovska
13 Mitrovica you planned actions in Bair and Tamnik?
14 A. Activities were planned in those parts of town, Kosovska
15 Mitrovica, as far as I can remember.
16 Q. Do you remember who it was that compiled a plan for these actions
17 and who otherwise does compile an action plan in your SUP?
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic?
19 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at one moment I had the
20 impression that this is not based on cross-examination. Thank you.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, how does this arise from
23 MR. LUKIC: I think that we discussed planning with this witness,
24 Your Honour, and planning of his SUP.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this in the cross-examination by Mr. Cepic?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, he tried to show that document from Pec and then
2 he continued inquiring about planning. And he, Mr. Bogunovic, explained
3 how they planned actions, but he didn't explain who planned the actions,
4 who signed it, so that's what I would like to explore.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Cepic.
6 MR. CEPIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we got
7 clear, concise, and accurate answers to these questions. The witness
8 clearly explained who approved this in the SUP and who did it.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: That's precisely why re-examination is
11 Mr. Lukic, you may continue to pursue this line.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. [Interpretation] So could you tell us, please, Mr. Bogunovic, who
14 is it that compiles a plan, who approves a plan, what happens, how does
15 this process evolve so that I could ask you my next question?
16 A. As far as planning of activities is concerned, not actions,
17 activities, you're asking me this again. I'm telling you, the SUP plans
18 activities; the SUP never planned actions. The SUP has actions of an
19 ongoing nature, but those are not the subject of our deliberations here.
20 As for the Ministry of the Interior within the secretariats, as
21 far as specific occurrences are concerned they were planned by the
22 commander together with the chief of the police department and
23 information obtained in terms of where terrorists were and so on that was
24 received from the OKP, and then they compiled the plan. This plan was
25 invariably approved by someone, someone would agree to that, and that
1 would always be on the last page stated quite clearly. And everybody had
2 to be there, there had to be three signatures, of the person who agrees,
3 that is to say the chief of the secretariat; the person who approved,
4 that is either the chief of the OKP or the chief of police; and the
5 person who compiled the plan himself, this was usually the commander of
6 the police station or an operative who knew the terrain the best where
7 the activities were being planned for.
8 Q. The plans for these activities, were they sent to the MUP staff
9 for their approval, do you remember?
10 A. Not a single plan that pertained to activities in the territory
11 of the secretariat never had to be sent to higher instances as far as one
12 secretariat is concerned. If it has to do with several secretariats then
13 it was sent to the administrations in Belgrade.
14 Q. I asked you about actions, Bair and Tamnik specifically right
15 now, the time is the end of 1998. Did you inform anyone to the effect
16 that these actions should be monitored?
17 A. Since this was the time when the verification mission was present
18 in the area of Kosovo and Metohija and in the area of Mitrovica itself,
19 every day I reported to the mission about personnel movements in the
20 territory of the secretariat, every day at 7.30 the contact person came
21 to see me and each and every one of my movements. When I say my
22 movements I mean the members of the Ministry of the Interior of the SUP
23 of Kosovska Mitrovica, I mean the mission received the specific time,
24 place, number, and everything else that was done on that day by the
25 members of the SUP of Kosovska Mitrovica. We did not send such
1 information to anyone else.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: What were the activities in Bair and Tamnik?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that in my written
5 statement as well. It has to do with capturing the perpetrators of the
6 attack from hand-held rocket-launchers against an official vehicle in
7 which the commander of the police station of Srbica was.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Lukic, which paragraph is that?
9 MR. LUKIC: One moment, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you find it in your statement, Mr. Bogunovic,
11 which paragraph? Perhaps someone else will be looking for it while we
13 Please continue, Mr. Lukic, unless you want to explore this any
15 MR. LUKIC: We can't find the word. Probably it's somewhere
16 hidden in these 6D614 numbers. Paragraph number 30 Tamnik is mentioned,
17 3-0, 21st November 1998.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bogunovic, is that one of the two activities?
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Just a moment, please. Could you please look at paragraph 30.
21 The Judge is asking you about your statement. Is that it?
22 A. This has to do with the seizure of vehicles, Tamnik, Sipolje,
23 Bair, and the rest, that is an area when you leave Kosovska Mitrovica
24 going towards Srbica. That is a locality that is above the bus station
25 where the Albanian terrorists used a tunnel and attacked the civilian
1 population every day regardless of whether they were Albanians, Serbs,
2 Roma --
3 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it that's a different matter. We just want
4 to find the reference to the two that you mentioned before, and if we
5 can't do that quickly it can be done later.
6 You can continue with your other questions, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It's also mentioned in
8 paragraph number 96, but I don't think it's that one either, Tamnik. But
9 it's from 1999 --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
11 MR. LUKIC: -- it's not the period the witness mentioned.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, let us move on. At page 77, line 14, a part of
15 your answer was missing. You were trying to explain how it was that you
16 knew that Mr. Hajrizi was against the KLA.
17 A. I answered that already when examined by the Prosecution. I told
18 you that I never spoke to the man, but at the collegium meetings held by
19 the chiefs of secretariats his name frequently was mentioned in a
20 positive context. He was always mentioned very positively by those
22 Q. Thank you. And the last thing I wanted to ask you is this: His
23 Honour Judge Bonomy asked you something about the murder of Mr. Hajrizi.
24 He asked you whether you directly participated in the work carried out in
25 order to discover the perpetrator of the murder. Tell us, what is it
1 that you are familiar with, did you only read the report or do you know
2 something else about that? What was your role in the process?
3 A. As the deputy chief of the Kosovska Mitrovica SUP, I participated
4 in the activities concerning this case. I assembled a group of people
5 who worked on the detection of crimes, in particular murder and sexual
6 assaults, as members of the OKP. We drew up a plan in order to try and
7 shed light on that crime. We tried to establish what the motive was and
8 who the perpetrator was of the crime.
9 Q. Did you participate actively in any other cases that were
10 processed by your secretariat in terms of crimes?
11 A. One of the duties of a deputy commander is to control the work of
12 departments and squads, and I actively participated. I came from
13 Vojvodina and I worked there on some serious crimes. I was familiar with
14 the topic, therefore my contribution was a full one at both Djakovica and
15 Kosovska Mitrovica SUPs.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic, that would be all and I thank you for
17 your testimony.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Bogunovic, that completes your evidence.
20 Thank you for coming here to give evidence to the Tribunal. You may now
21 leave the courtroom with the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, are you taking the next witness?
25 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And is that the witness Fazliji?
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it is, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there's an issue been drawn to the attention
4 of the Chamber. The Prosecution wish to raise a matter in relation to
6 Mr. Hannis.
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I did have an objection I
8 wanted to raise before the witness came in concerning his statement.
9 There are portions of it, Your Honour, I don't think are appropriate for
10 submission in the written statement from this witness. In particular I
11 point to paragraphs 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 12 to 14, 16, 17, and 21. In some
12 ways it's as though he's offering evidence as some kind of quasi expert
13 on the KLA and the history of Kosovo and something he refers to as the
14 Irredentist Movement. In some of those paragraphs he flatly states "I
15 know," but it's not clear whether he's speaking of personal experience or
16 he's talking about second- or third-hand hearsay as his source for
17 knowing about those things. I realize that's something that I can
18 address in cross-examination, but this is the kind of issue that's been
19 raised by both sides in conjunction with written statements in the past
20 so I wanted to bring it out now and ask at least if you don't accept my
21 objection at this time you don't admit the statement until you have heard
22 the cross-examination.
23 I would also note, Your Honour, that his name on the statement in
24 my English translation is listed as Shaban Fazliji, F-a-z-l-i-j-i, on the
25 cover sheet. In paragraph 1 on page 2 it's Fazlii, F-a-z-l-i-i, and his
1 son's name in paragraph 20 on page 6 is also spelled that way I just
2 mentioned. But when he testified in the Milosevic case and on the
3 witness sheet here, he was named Fazliu. So I'm not sure what that is,
4 but that is another matter I thought I should bring to your attention.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
6 [Trial Chamber confer]
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, all of these paragraphs, with the
8 exception of the first one mentioned by Mr. Hannis, paragraph 3, relate
9 to matters where it is possible that the witness has information. In a
10 number of instances the source is not stated and therefore unless that's
11 clarified the evidence will be of little value, and I'm sure you
12 appreciate that. And the only one I think to which the fundamental
13 objection goes is paragraph 3. This is a man who has elementary school
14 education and was a forester who is giving a historical analysis of the
15 Irredentist Movement, and it's not easy to see what his qualifications
16 are for doing that or that this is anything other than a purported
17 expert -- piece of expert evidence.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would point out, though, that his
19 brother was a member of the movement and was convicted as such and he
20 does cite to him throughout along with other family members who were part
21 of the KLA, and indeed in paragraph 6 he says his brother Ekrem Fazliji
22 was in the movement and was convicted and several other people.
23 Paragraph 9 talks about the KLA leaders in the area and the cooperators
24 among them --
25 JUDGE BONOMY: These -- I'm not --I think these are specific
1 examples where his evidence could be of some value once it's entirely
2 clear what the source is, but paragraph 3 is a historical study of the
3 matter, and that's the only one that really concerns us at the moment on
4 this preliminary issue.
5 MR. IVETIC: Well, I'd be more than happy examining it with him.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry?
7 MR. IVETIC: I'd be more than happy to spend time examining it
8 with him. I can ask him to give us his --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it may be that that will lead to us telling
10 you that we don't think it's appropriate for him to give this evidence
11 because if it's supposedly hearsay expert evidence, then it's quite
12 inappropriate evidence in this form, that's the problem. But if you wish
13 to try you may do so and then we shall make a final judgement in the
14 light of what you lead from him.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And as a -- since we're still on
16 procedural matters with the last witness, Mr. Bogunovic, we used his
17 statement -- we used in his statement Exhibit 3D181, which was that
18 multi-hundred-page book and there was only one or two pages that we
19 needed from it.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: One.
21 MR. IVETIC: One. Your Honours had yesterday directed for us to
22 scan it into e-court, and we have that. It's 6D1626 is the exhibit
23 number for that excerpt on that.
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Can it not just go in with the same number in
25 place of the book, which is --
1 MR. IVETIC: It can't because we're not 3D, so we cannot --
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, I see.
3 MR. IVETIC: It has to come in as a new 6D number because of the
4 technicalities of the e-court.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my mistake
6 yesterday. So we need to clarify this with Mr. 3D Visnjic.
7 There was a reference in yesterday's statement or the statement
8 introduced yesterday through the last witness, Mr. Bogunovic, to one of
9 your exhibits which I wrongly attributed to Mr. Lukic's Defence and
10 instructed them to take certain steps in regard to it. Now, what they've
11 done is the bit that they can do, which is scan in the page. We really
12 wish to remove from the record material which is not actually part of the
13 material that we will be considering. So now that that's been done, can
14 3D18 -- is it 181? I've lost the number.
15 MR. IVETIC: That's what I have written down, Your Honour, 3D181.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Can that you be removed, Mr. Visnjic, the one --
17 or are you using it for some other reason?
18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I recall it
19 was the collection from the Federal Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I think
20 I saw that document yesterday during the hearing. I didn't quite
21 understand what your order would be to --
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, what will happen is that we will read
25 yesterday's 92 ter statement of Bogunovic as referring in that paragraph
1 to 6D1626 and not to 3D181. 3D181 has in fact not been admitted in any
2 earlier -- at any earlier stage of the trial. So the end result of that
3 is that as we admit the new exhibit, 6D1626, we confine what's admitted
4 to one page of that book and the cover page. And hopefully this note
5 will be sufficient to alert anyone reading the statement of Bogunovic to
6 realize the relationship between the two.
7 Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. Sorry to have troubled you on that.
8 Now, we can have the witness Shaban Fazliji, please.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry.
11 MR. HANNIS: -- there were a couple of other procedural matters
12 that we would like to address --
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, but we can deal with those as and when we
14 need to, Mr. Hannis. Is there some reason why these need to be dealt
15 with at this stage?
16 MR. HANNIS: No, but if we could deal with them today because
17 they relate to scheduling for next week.
18 JUDGE BONOMY: Indeed, yes.
19 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Fazliji.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Good afternoon, Mr. Fazliji.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE BONOMY: Would you please make the solemn declaration to
1 speak the truth by reading aloud the document now being shown to you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Please be seated.
5 You will now be examined by Mr. Ivetic on behalf of Mr. Lukic.
6 Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours, and while the usher is on
8 his feet maybe I can save him a second trip. Since we will be making
9 reference to a written statement I would like to have a copy in the
10 Serbian language provided to the witness.
11 WITNESS: SHABAN FAZLIJI
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
14 Q. Good day, Mr. Fazliji.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Mr. Fazliji, did you write -- did you give a written statement to
17 the members of the Defence team of Sreten Lukic for this case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you should have in front of you 6D1629, a hard copy of the
20 statement, and then we can have a copy up on e-court for everyone else,
21 and I would ask you to review the same and tell us if in fact this is the
22 written statement that you gave to the Lukic Defence team for these
24 A. Yes, that is accurate.
25 Q. And if I could direct your attention to paragraph 15 of the
1 statement first of all, and in the English it will be between pages 4 and
2 5. Do you have any corrections or revisions to make to the text of any
3 of the persons named in paragraph 15?
4 A. Only one of the names is not accurate. Instead of being Nefail,
5 it is written here Nefair and that is the only mistake.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 Now, if I can direct your attention to the third paragraph, which
8 would be on the second page of the exhibit as a whole. In that paragraph
9 you provide a variety of information relating to KLA -- pardon me,
10 relating to activities in Kosovo and Metohija from -- covering a several
11 years' time-period. Could you provide us details about how it is that
12 you -- how it is that you know this information, upon what is this
13 information based?
14 A. This information came from what I was able to see and what I
15 myself went through because, as you know, I was a forester, which means
16 that I was on the move all the time. So everything that is in there
17 comes through me seeing things and hearing about things.
18 Q. When you say "hearing about things, "could you be a bit more
19 specific about the source of any of this information in paragraph 3?
20 A. The source is as old and dates as far back as 1977, forgive me
21 for saying it in truncated 1977. They started this verbally and through
22 the organization of rallies, whilst in the 1990s, in the 1990s, they
23 began through the withdrawal of labour, i.e., forcing people from their
24 jobs. And so the order arrived for everybody to leave their jobs;
25 unfortunately, that came to pass. A number amongst us, however, who did
1 not agree to that decision from the -- from 1994/1995 were systematically
2 being killed, and the -- something called the Black Hand was being
3 publicised among the people to the extent that Serbia was killing these
4 people. So they came with this message through different kinds of
5 activities, the burial of people, at weddings, in groups of three, and
6 especially in the territory of Kosovo-Metohija and beginning from
7 1995/1996 and extending up until the end of the war.
8 Q. Okay, if I could just -- if I could just try to break this down
9 somewhat. You stated that the order arrived for everyone to leave their
10 jobs, at line 12, page 20, of the transcript. Did you yourself --
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. -- receive such an order?
13 A. That's right, I did, personally receive an order.
14 Q. And how was that order communicated to you, by what means?
15 A. The order was given orally. One of them was my brother, Ekrem
16 Fazliji, was a member of the KLA committee.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: What year are we discussing now?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the order?
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order dates back to 1996, 1997,
21 1998, up until the eve of the bombing. They used that order and they
22 enforced it through killing, beating, abductions --
23 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, the question relates to the order you
24 received to leave your employment. Did that happen on more than one --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1991.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: And you say the order was given orally and one of
2 them was your brother who was a member of the KLA committee. Now, what
3 period are you referring to there?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a member of the KLA from
5 1990. In 1979 he had a conviction.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. And with respect to -- with respect to this paragraph you also
9 state that, "The irredentists and the leaders issued their orders orally
10 because this type of communication was very developed in conjunction with
11 the semi-tribal nature of the Siptar people. I know that terrorists
12 kidnapped those Siptars who didn't abide by their oral orders."
13 Upon what is your knowledge of the kidnappings based? Do you
14 have personal knowledge or is this just things that you ...
15 A. Forgive me, because I was very brief. There is a lot to tell
16 here, a lot of truths to be told. In one of those instances was the
17 abduction of 26 people in a village in Kacanik, one of them was Idriz
18 Idrizi -- Agim Idrizi. After he was able to flee as they were escorting
19 him from the village of Kotline
20 towards Drenica where the big headquarters were sighted, the KLA
21 headquarters. And from there onwards, en route to Albania, there was a
22 battle en route during which he was able to flee and this happened in the
23 course of the night. And he came back and he had been mistreated, beaten
24 up, a lot of blood on his body. He came and reported the crime at the
25 SUP headquarters, telling who had abducted him because amongst the public
1 it was being said that Serbia
2 of uniforms, first and foremost it was a black uniform with balaclavas,
3 and then uniforms of the police, and all kinds of uniforms.
4 Q. If I can direct your attention to paragraph 10 of the statement,
5 is this the -- is this the incident from 1998 and the abduction of 26
6 persons that you are talking about and Agim Idrizi?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Okay. And is your information about this event -- well, what --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- connection -- what connection did you have to Agim Idrizi?
11 A. Agim Idrizi was a hard-working man who worked as a forester, he
12 owned a piece of land on a mountain. I was one of the guards who gave
13 the permission for everybody who came to collect timber in a legitimate
15 Q. And --
16 A. Nothing else.
17 Q. And after he escaped from the persons that were holding him, that
18 at paragraph 10 you say are the KLA, did he have contact with you after
19 he escaped from the custody of these persons?
20 A. When he gave the statement to the police, because Kacanik and
21 Ferizaj are at some distance from each other, he then came to me because
22 he dared not go to his own village because he feared that he'd be beaten
23 up a second time, given that those areas were under the control of the
24 KLA. Police and others were not able to get into there -- into that part
25 of territory. He stayed with me for three months in a row until the end.
1 Q. Thank you. If I can ask you also about this paragraph, you
2 mention that 26 other persons were abducted and killed by the KLA that
3 did not escape. Could you tell us --
4 A. They -- unfortunately, all of them were killed, they were all
5 killed. There are many others who were killed as well and they were part
6 of that first group.
7 Q. With respect to the first -- with respect to these 26 persons,
8 did you find out any information --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- from Mr. Idrizi as to who abducted them and what the reason --
11 did he identify specific individuals and what the reasons for the
13 A. They were kidnapped because they did not want to implement their
14 orders and nothing else. One of them was one of the -- Agim's relatives,
15 i.e., from the group of the KLA people that kidnapped them. He gave all
16 the names; unfortunately, I wasn't aware of this because I could have
17 taken all those names and now a long time has elapsed and I cannot
18 mention all these names. I know the main ones, though. If need be I can
19 mention them, from amongst the KLA, that is.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. And if I can -- well, if you can give us some names of these
23 individuals I think it would be helpful for us to get a fuller picture of
24 this -- of this event.
25 A. I can. The main one amongst them was Hajdin Abazi, a colleague
1 of mine at primary school at the Tefik Canga school in Ferizaj. Shukri
2 Buja was there amongst the main ones and there were lots of other named
3 individuals who were connected to Jakup Krasniqi, Ramush Haradinaj, Agim
4 Ceku, and so on and so forth.
5 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you about -- strike that.
6 Is -- is your recounting in paragraph 3 of your statement based
7 upon these events and the other events that you have identified as
8 specific incidents including kidnappings of your own family members in
9 the rest of your statement? Is that the -- is that what we are to take
10 the extent of paragraph number 3 to be?
11 A. That's true.
12 Q. Okay. Apart from -- apart from the specific incidents that you
13 have enumerated in your statement, do you have any additional events
14 or -- events or incidents that you can recall that relate to the items
15 that you have set forth in paragraph 3 of your statement?
16 A. There are a lot, I have a lot to say here, but I know that before
17 a court of law you have to focus and mention only the main points. They
18 kidnapped Serbs, Roma people, and many, many others. And there was a lot
19 of killing because we in Kosova have a tradition to take revenge, and
20 unfortunately in the years of 1973, when I was a little child there were
21 a lot of Serbs who were deprived of their land.
22 Q. Okay. We'll get to each of these points. I'm trying to keep us
23 on some course with the time-period that we have for your testimony.
24 Apart from the -- getting back to your written statement, apart from the
25 correction to the name of Mr. Shabani Nefair --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If I were to ask you about the same topics today under oath would
3 your answers be the same as reflected in this written statement subject
4 to just the corrections and explanations that you have given to us?
5 A. The answers should be the same with the exception that I have
6 been very brief and there is a lot more to be mentioned. From 1995 they
7 worked --
8 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
9 A. -- unceasingly and I cannot compress five years into five
10 minutes. I need a lot of time to be able to relate everything that
11 happened in Kosova and everything that is occurring to this day.
12 Q. Well, let me -- let me try and assist you in that by going to
13 some specific points mentioned. You also mentioned in paragraph --
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Just before you -- you've now completed paragraph
15 3 and you've asked the appropriate questions in relation to his adoption
16 of the statement. We can now deal with the objection that was taken.
17 Is there anything else to be said on it, Mr. Hannis?
18 MR. HANNIS: No, not concerning paragraph 3.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Well, on any other paragraph we've
20 already indicated it's --
21 MR. HANNIS: I'd raise the question about the spelling of the
22 name, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Yeah, I think that's a matter for
25 MR. HANNIS: All right.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, the witness relies on his own personal
3 experience, both direct and hearsay, for the contents of paragraph 3 as
4 we understand the evidence; and therefore, we shall treat it that way and
5 we shall admit the statement in its entirety.
6 Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Fazliji, if you could look at paragraph 11 of your
9 statement, in that paragraph you make a statement about the killing of
10 your colleague Islam from the village of Belince
11 Upon what is your -- that is to say, how did you come to know of the
12 killing of forester Islam and what is his ethnicity or nationality?
13 A. He's of Albanian ethnicity. In the first instance his son of 16
14 or 17 years of age was kidnapped and they sent news that your son is with
15 us in the forest and should you wish to come and rescue him you're
16 welcome to do so. And because he was at -- and in a lot of pain because
17 of his son he did go there, and so they released the son and kept him.
18 And they told him this is what we're going to do to your father. So they
19 tied him to a tree trunk and they tortured him to death. So the son came
20 to a village of Kosare
21 mention his name here, but I was told this by the son who was relating
22 what had happened to his father.
23 Then there is another case, that of my uncle --
24 Q. Before we -- before we get to your uncle I want to focus for an
25 instance on this particular incident. Did the son tell you why his
1 father had been targeted by the KLA?
2 A. Of course he did, just because he was a forester and did not
3 accept their orders, just like me.
4 Q. When you say did not accept their orders, could you be a bit more
5 specific what those orders were?
6 A. The order to obey them, to abandon jobs, not to speak to the
7 Serbs, and to fight against the Serbs.
8 Q. Now, do you know the fates of any other persons who refused to
9 leave their employment, for example, any persons of ethnic Albanian or
10 Siptar nationality who stayed to work in the Serbian police? Do you know
11 who their fate is today of any specific persons?
12 A. There were many cases, and a number of people worked with the
13 Serbs, not only policemen but ordinary workers or workers employed in
14 agricultural companies and other companies and those who worked in the
15 police until recently. But those who were captured, they were killed.
16 They started killing them from 1995, but here I'm only speaking of those
17 that I know, those that were my colleagues, but there are many, many
18 other cases.
19 Q. Okay. You -- you started telling us about your uncle, and if I
20 can direct your attention to page -- to item number 21 of your statement,
21 I believe you --
22 A. I know everything by heart. Just let me find it.
23 Q. I appreciate that. If you could look at paragraph 21 and you
24 described there the various actions of the group known as the Black Hand
25 or Crna Ruka against ethnic Siptars, and you describe that amongst the
1 population it was originally thought that these were Serbs but that
2 actually it was the KLA. How do you know this to be the case? How do
3 you know that the Black Hand was actually part of the KLA?
4 A. They kidnapped my uncle, Fazli Fazliji, who was a forester, a
5 gardener, and he was kept for a week at gunpoint and a colleague of his
6 was also taken. And after he was released he had to go to the police and
7 report the case, and then he told me who they were and it was confirmed
8 that they were Albanians. But the ordinary people didn't know who they
9 were because they worked secretly in the forest and in hidden areas, but
10 later on cases were discovered.
11 Q. Okay, Mr. Fazliji. You've given us some details relating to the
12 stuff that -- to the items that you've mentioned in your statement, and I
13 believe your statement goes into details of other incidents relating to
14 family members and/or colleagues and/or acquaintances. I, however, have
15 no further questions for you and I thank you for your time and testimony.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
18 Mr. Fazliu, you'll now be cross-examined by the Prosecutor,
19 Mr. Hannis.
20 Mr. Hannis.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:
23 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you tell us how you spell your name.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. Could you spell your last name for us, please.
1 A. My last name, Fazliji.
2 Q. Please --
3 A. F-a-z-l-i-j-i.
4 Q. The reason I ask, sir, is that when you were here previously and
5 testified in the Milosevic case in 19 -- in 2005, your name was recorded
6 as Fazliu, spelled F-a-z-l-i-u. Were you aware of that?
7 A. Yes, that is true because in my documents, in the identification
8 document and in my passport, it is Fazliji, because in 1980, 1981, and
9 1983 I lived in Macedonia
10 it should be Fazlia in the Serbian language while in the Albanian Fazliu.
11 Q. You worked as a forester. Can you tell me how long you worked in
12 that job?
13 A. From 1988 until 1999, when the war ended.
14 Q. And what does a -- what did a forester do in Kosovo during that
15 time-period? What was the nature of your job?
16 A. You guard the mountain so that people don't steal timber.
17 Q. Did you wear any kind of uniform?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. Where do you live now? I don't need a specific address, just a
21 A. In the state of Serbia
22 Q. And you've lived in Serbia
23 A. Not all the time. In early 1999 I went to Serbia for ten days
24 when we left Kosovo because of the KLA and the NATO forces. Then I went
25 to Macedonia
1 went to Germany
3 Q. And when you testified in the Slobodan Milosevic case you talked
4 about the fact that you had a prior conviction arising from something
5 that happened in, what, 1991; is that right?
6 A. That happened in 1991. As I said earlier, I have many things to
7 say here, things that I've been through. In 1991 --
8 Q. Let me cut you off there. From your prior testimony here you
9 understand that the Rules of Procedure that the lawyers ask a question
10 and then you answer the question, right, you understand that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about your description of that crime
13 from your Milosevic testimony, and it's at page 42798, and you mentioned
14 that you'd had some disagreement with some other Albanians about speaking
15 to Serbs, working with Serbs. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. At line 16 in that transcript - and we've had the testimony
18 marked as Exhibit P3138, Your Honours - you said: "The next day in the
19 morning when I woke up to work in my fields along with a friend of mine,
20 an Albanian, a father and three men -- a father and three men went there
21 and beat me up. At that time I was in an illegal possession of a weapon
22 and then they stopped me and one of them who attacked me and then I
23 wounded him. I shot at him three times."
24 That's what you said then, right?
25 A. No. What I said was that their intention was to beat me. They
1 did not beat me. I had the weapon with me and I fired it so that they
2 would not beat me or kill me. I don't know what their intentions were.
3 They didn't beat me, but they just wanted to attack me.
4 Q. Well, I didn't say that they beat you. I read that -- well, you
5 did say they beat me. You said: "A father and three men went there and
6 beat me up ..."
7 So was that a mistake when you said that back in 2005?
8 A. No, no, that is not true. I did not say they beat me. The truth
9 is the following: This father with his sons, three sons, came out to
10 beat me. They did not beat me. I had the weapon with me and I didn't
11 let them beat me, that's why I fired it.
12 Q. And you shot one of them three times, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What kind of weapon was that?
15 A. 7.65-millimetre, it was a small weapon.
16 Q. Okay. And two pages on in your transcript from Milosevic at page
17 42800 --
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, perhaps this is the time for the break.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, it would help if you can complete this or is
20 it going to take long?
21 MR. HANNIS: It will take three or four minutes.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Complete it and we can adjust the break.
23 MR. HANNIS:
24 Q. You said: "I wanted to say that nationalism began with my case
25 and the courts were working for justice and I was brought before a court
1 and tried even though I was not guilty. As a person I had the right to
2 help whoever I wanted whenever I wanted; however, the court sentenced
4 What do you mean that nationalism began with your case?
5 A. Down there in Kosova the Albanian justice system was in force.
6 This is what I meant. Everywhere 95 per cent of the institutions were
7 held by the Albanians until they abandoned them. Unfortunately at that
8 time I was an Albanian and it was through TV an order not to commit
9 killings in revenge because as I explained earlier, there is a tradition
10 in Kosova to take revenge.
11 Q. And the last thing I wanted to ask you about this right now, in
12 paragraph 24 of your written statement, Exhibit 6D1629 you say: "During
13 1991 four members of the Ramadani family," you name then, "tried to beat
14 me. They came with hoes in front of my house. I was there with my
15 little son who was 4 years old at the time. Out of fear for my life and
16 that of my son, in self-defense I used fire weapon and wounded Hajrulah.
17 I was on sentenced on four years in prison in Dubrava where I served two
18 and a half years."
19 How come you didn't mention the presence of your 4-year-old son
20 when you testified in Milosevic in 2005?
21 A. Whenever I appear in court I try to be brief because at that time
22 they did not allow me to talk broadly on events, they just asked me to
23 answer with yes or no.
24 Q. Isn't it true you added the bit about your 4-year-old son in your
25 statement now to make it sound better than it actually was?
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I object to the question, it seems to
2 be meant to --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a moment.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- add that, that is true, that he
6 was with me.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, there have been a number of questions
8 of this type put in this case. It's consistent with the practice of
9 adversarial procedure and the witness should answer the question.
10 Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: I think he did answer, Your Honour, and now would be
12 an appropriate time for me to break.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fazliji, we need to have a break at this
14 stage, that will be for 20 minutes. While we have the break would you
15 please leave the courtroom with the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE BONOMY: And we shall resume at ten past 4.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis.
22 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Fazliji, we talked about that conviction from 1991, and in
24 your testimony in Milosevic you talked about that you had, indeed, had
25 that weapon illegally and you said at page 42853 you said: "I was in
1 possession of it even later on."
2 What did you mean by that? Did you continue to possess that
3 illegal weapon after you were convicted? What do you mean "later on"?
4 A. It is a tradition amongst us in Kosova, especially amongst the
5 Albanians, to always bear arms.
6 Q. Now, in paragraph 8 of your statement you say: "In the Milosevic
7 case I have been asked am I a police collaborator. My answer was that I
8 reported every irregularity on the territory where I worked because my
9 faith ordered me, which is what I've said before."
10 But you didn't report your own illegal possession of a weapon,
11 did you?
12 A. I told everyone who asked that I was in possession of an illegal
13 weapon. I abhor lies even in a court of law when they ask me to tell
14 them, I only tell the truth. I also owned a weapon legally, but I always
15 kept the one that I possessed illegally for use out of hours, when I was
16 not in uniform.
17 Q. Well, you said you told anybody who asked you, but in your
18 statement you say you reported every irregularity. You didn't report to
19 anybody that you had an illegal weapon, did you? Yes or no?
20 A. Sir --
21 Q. Can you answer that yes or no, please --
22 A. -- amongst us --
23 Q. -- did you or did you not report it?
24 A. I did not report without being asked.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. However, when asked --
2 Q. Thank you. Stop.
3 A. -- I did report it.
4 Q. All right. You know an individual named Bajram Bakaliu, who
5 lived in Urosevac municipality?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. He was one of the Kosovo Albanians who didn't follow the order to
8 leave his job, right, because he continued to work up through 1999 at the
9 railroad station, right?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Regarding this allegation that you were a police collaborator in
12 your testimony in the Milosevic case, the Prosecutor there, Mr. Saxon,
13 asked you about an event involving a traffic policeman named Boban
14 Krstic. Do you remember that?
15 A. You are insulting me when you term me a Serbian collaborator. I
16 was not a Serbian collaborator. I was a worker with the Serbia Shuma,
17 forestry company. I worked for myself. I was -- I received my salary
18 from the doctorate of the Serbia Shuma, and I do know Boban Krstic.
19 Q. And you were asked in the Milosevic case about an occasion where
20 you had provided some information to policeman Krstic about an individual
21 whom Krstic set up some sort of ambush on. Do you recall that?
22 A. I did not give information with named people to anyone else.
23 [Microphone not activated].
24 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone for the witness has gone.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. And you were present when that policeman, Mr. Krstic, stopped or
2 attempted to stop the car in which this suspect in several rapes was
3 travelling, and there was a shoot-out during that event in which a
4 7-year-old boy who was a passenger in the car was killed, right?
5 A. I was at my place of work which was in between two villages, that
6 is where I ambushed the people who stole the timber because that's where
7 they used to pass in their lorries, in complete violation of the law
8 especially in recent years. The man who was being sought after was Avdyl
9 Krstena, a man who had raped and stolen a lot, and there were quite a few
10 other people with Boban Krstic too.
11 Q. In paragraph -- well, let me ask you this: Are you aware that
12 after you testified in the Milosevic case your son contacted the ICTY or
13 the OTP field office and he was quoted in the media a day or two after
14 you testified in Milosevic. I want to refer to Exhibit P3137, which is
15 an open-source document, a Just Watch archive report of an HINA Croatian
16 news agency story on 21 August 2005
17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have an objection with respect to
19 this document on several grounds. First of all, this appears to be some
20 sort of compilation --
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Just a second.
22 There's a point of law arisen here, Mr. Fazliji. While we deal
23 with it, I'm afraid you will need to leave the courtroom, that will be
24 only briefly, but could you please leave the courtroom with the usher
25 while we deal with this issue.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 The exhibit that the -- I don't know if we have it on the screen
5 now, it wasn't coming up earlier but I have a hard copy, there it is now.
6 As you can see, this is not even an original article, this is some sort
7 of compilation. This is not an original from JustWatch. I just happen
8 to know JustWatch is the acronym for Justice Watch, a list server from
9 the University of Buffalo
10 send in their comments and their articles, et cetera. I was a member
11 many years of T-Watch, Tribunal Watch, another list server at the
12 University of Buffalo
13 they are not original articles, and in any event we have had problems
14 with newspaper articles coming in in the past where essentially they are
15 being used to try and show the truth of any matter that is asserted, et
17 The particular items that we have here are from three -- it looks
18 like two different news sources. We don't have the original information,
19 we don't have any background on the same, and as for at least the items
20 relating to the daughter, I would point to paragraph 18 which provides
21 additional information that shows, in fact, that the newspaper article --
22 well, at least the information that was available to the reporter giving
23 the -- it's not even a newspaper, it's a SENSE news agency, which is the
24 Prosecution's own news agency I believe here at the Tribunal, so I think
25 that would be highly improper to use that as a -- as a -- as a source of
1 evidence in this case.
2 MR. HANNIS: First of all, Your Honour, I should indicate SENSE
3 is not the Prosecution's news agency. They are an independent body.
4 MR. IVETIC: I'll stand corrected on that. I do know that their
5 coverage of even what happens in this courtroom sometimes leaves me to
6 wonder if I'm in the same courtroom that they're watching, but --
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that's a true news agency, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: I agree, I agree, and that is the problem that we
9 have with news reports that oftentimes what is reported is either half
10 true, not true, or sometimes they even get the truth. But the problem we
11 have here is these are not even the original articles, these are a
12 compilation that someone has put together, I suppose it's someone at the
13 Prosecutor's office since they have gone through the trouble of digesting
14 these what would have been e-mail archives, Justice Watch from the
15 University of Buffalo
16 where people send in e-mails of their own and those get transmitted to
17 hundreds or thousands of persons who are subscribers of the list.
18 Justice Watch is a little bit smaller since it's a moderated group that
19 not everyone from the general public can become a member of. Again, I
20 just happen to know those things from my own past.
21 But I maintain submitting this type of information based on these
22 news articles that are not even news articles, and I don't know if the
23 Croatian news agency news article was actually done in the Croatian
24 language first and if this is a translation, it might even be a
25 translation of a translation, we don't know that because what the
1 Prosecution is doing here is presenting an exhibit that they have created
2 rather than the original source, so as to even have it qualify as open
3 source. Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE BONOMY: As in other instances where this has occurred, we
6 shall allow a media source to be used as a basis for a question in
7 cross-examination, always making it clear, as we have in the past, that
8 it's the witness's answer that matters. We're not persuaded in any way
9 by the content of any such document unless its content is adopted by the
10 witness in answer to the questions. That limits Mr. Hannis's ability to
11 present this evidence to what the witness is prepared to agree to. So we
12 shall allow the line to be pursued.
13 Please bring the witness back.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fazliji, we've dealt with that matter and the
16 questions will now continue.
17 Mr. Hannis.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Fazliji, have you heard that a day or two after you testified
20 in Milosevic your son Faruk contacted the ICTY and told them that what
21 you had testified to in the Milosevic trial was untrue? Did you hear
22 about that?
23 A. I am glad that you are now dealing with theories that suggest
24 that my son was --
25 Q. Please, sir.
1 A. Let me take my time.
2 Q. My question was: Did you -- have you heard about that? You can
3 start with yes or no and then we may have some other questions. Have you
4 heard about that?
5 A. Yes, but let me --
6 Q. No.
7 A. -- speak a bit more about it, how he was forced to say what he
8 had to.
9 Q. That lawyer over there will have another chance to ask you
10 questions. Thank you. And have you heard that he said you were a paid
11 collaborator of the Serbian police? Did you know that, yes or no?
12 A. No. All I know is that he was forced to.
13 Q. Okay. And did you know that he also said your account of your
14 daughter being abducted was not true, yes or no?
15 A. He did say it, he was forced to say so.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. My daughter was --
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. -- kept for six months in Kline near Peje.
20 Q. Let me ask you about 25 in your statement, the last paragraph.
21 You said the proof that you were not a member or a collaborator of the
22 police is in the fact that in 2005 you were in Belgrade investigation
23 prison for eight months and ten days. From when to when were you in the
25 of the year?
1 A. I can't recall the date, but I can say that it was in 2005.
2 Q. Well, it's interesting that you testified here --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The fifth month, in
5 MR. HANNIS:
6 Q. You said you were there for a total of eight months and ten days,
7 starting from when in 2005?
8 A. The fifth month, in May. I can't recall the exact date.
9 Q. So you started your eight months and ten days in May?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were you released from prison to come here and testify in the
12 Milosevic case?
13 A. No, they did not release me, but justice was on my side. I was
14 not guilty.
15 Q. When were you --
16 A. And today I'm suing the government for that.
17 Q. When were you released from the Belgrade prison for this event
18 you talk about in paragraph 25 of your statement? Was that before or
19 after you testified in the Milosevic case?
20 A. Before.
21 Q. Okay. So eight months and ten days in 2005 would take us to
22 August [sic] 10th, seven or eight days before you testified for
23 Mr. Milosevic, right?
24 A. On the 18th of February; however, I cannot recall the exact date
25 given I don't have this in writing, but I know that I was released from
1 prison on February the 18th.
2 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions for this witness, Your
3 Honour. Thank you.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Fazliji, when you were being interviewed for
6 the statement which you have confirmed today in your evidence and you
7 were speaking with Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Dunder, what language were you
9 A. Serbian and Albanian.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: How much of the interview was conducted in
12 A. They asked me for two days.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not sure I follow you. In -- if you mean that
14 you were interviewed for two days, how much of the time was spent using
15 the Albanian language?
16 A. It was done in designated hours, like two or three hours of
18 JUDGE BONOMY: And were there periods when the two or three hours
19 were exclusively in Albanian?
20 A. In Serbian because one of them spoke both Albanian and Serbian,
21 so we used both languages.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Ivetic, re-examination?
24 MR. IVETIC: With respect to -- yes, indeed.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
1 Q. With respect to, first of all -- with respect to your son, first
2 of all, sir, where does he -- where did he live in August of 2005 when
3 you said -- if I can find -- when you heard that he had -- he was forced
4 to say -- when he was --
5 A. In Ferizaj.
6 Q. And you indicated -- actually, maybe I should go into --
7 MR. IVETIC: Upon reflection, Your Honour, I think I should go
8 into private session to protect the identity and/or circumstances of a
9 third party since I don't know what answer I'll be getting for the
10 questions that I'll be asking, but I do have a belief that they might
11 tend to put someone in jeopardy.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Any problem with that, Mr. Hannis?
13 MR. HANNIS: No.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BONOMY: We shall go into private session to protect the
16 security of any persons referred to in the next passage of evidence.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 25227-25236 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
7 Mr. Fazliji, that completes your evidence. Thank you for coming
8 again to the Tribunal to give evidence. You are now free to leave the
9 courtroom with the usher.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Hannis, you intimated that there were two
13 other issues you would wish to raise.
14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, regarding scheduling for next
15 week, one of the things we noted on the notification that the last
16 witness expected to be called next week is the Defence police expert.
17 I'm curious as to whether or not this is the last witness in the Lukic
18 case because in our notifications, the monthly notifications we received
19 for March and April, and the notification for the months of April and May
20 listed this witness as the last witness in terms of the order in which
21 they intended to present him. So he was number 29 on that list, he now
22 moved up to position 9 for this month. That advancement of 20, given the
23 fact that he's the expert, he's scheduled to testify for three hours, he
24 has five pages of exhibits or so listed on his notification, we just
25 wanted to alert the Court that we may request additional time to prepare
1 for his cross-examination, given the nature of him being an expert
2 witness and the short notice.
3 And related to that, two witnesses for this week who we haven't
4 gotten to yet, the witness Zlatkovic and Witness 6D-2, we have received
5 65 ter summaries for those and I had sent an e-mail to the case manager
6 at the beginning of the week asking the Defence if they could expand a
7 little bit on the 65 ter in regard to two sentences for Zlatkovic. There
8 was an indication that he will: "Contradict to prior testimony of
9 Prosecutor witnesses regarding events on the territory of SUP
10 not naming any of those witnesses and no further details.
11 And for 6D-2 he will: "Comment the testimony of OTP witnesses
12 relevant to his area."
13 Again, that's not very helpful in our preparations. Now, I
14 realize they're both 92 ter witnesses and I assume that when we get the
15 statements it would clarify which witnesses of the Prosecution they're
16 referring to, but we don't have any yet. These are fairly substantial
17 witnesses and I think the Defence probably knows which Prosecution
18 witnesses these Defence witnesses are going to address and I just ask as
19 a courtesy that the 65 ter could be expanded to at least identify who
20 those individuals are.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Dealing with that matter first, can that be done
23 MR. IVETIC: That can be done at least with respect to one of
24 the -- the first witness that I am dealing with. I can have my -- I can
25 have an e-mail sent over as soon as we finish if I can get it back -- get
1 word back to my office to send that, that will be done.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: It would be helpful if it will be done with both
4 MR. IVETIC: I will make sure my colleague does the same as well
5 with his witness. That's the second thing I was going to say.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: On the question of your expert witness.
7 MR. IVETIC: On the question of the expert witness, we don't know
8 at this point whether he's the last witness. We have -- there are
9 issues, as Your Honours know, about another individual, 6 -- that we had
10 proposed to be 6D-1 and there are some other witnesses who we are in
11 contact with. We are trying to get witnesses who are available here and
12 he was one that was available to come here and that we brought for
13 purposes of keeping the case moving along at a steady pace.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: You won't be faulted by us for doing that,
15 Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that.
17 JUDGE BONOMY: But is that an indication then that the list that
18 exists at the moment is to be substantially revised?
19 MR. IVETIC: I think given the number of hours we have left
20 obviously that's a given.
21 JUDGE BONOMY: Okay.
22 So who's our next witness -- sorry, Mr. Hannis.
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think in connection with that I think
24 we all need some intimation of how close we are to the end because then
25 we may have to make arrangements for the joint experts and when they
1 might be coming to testify.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: I think we already indicated you might even get
3 them in April, but that prospect as been receding as April progresses.
4 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: So unless something unexpected happens I think
6 you're looking at May for the joint experts.
7 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Thank you.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Is that reasonable, Mr. Ivetic?
9 MR. IVETIC: I think so, but obviously if anything changes in the
10 next couple of days we'll let everyone know if anything --
11 JUDGE BONOMY: I think if you were to anticipate a much earlier
12 finish for your case, a significantly earlier finish, like sometime next
13 week you should notify; but if it's later than that --
14 MR. IVETIC: Right, there's no possibility --
15 JUDGE BONOMY: -- I don't now see the point in having joint
16 experts here.
17 So I think the position in relation to them will be clear by the
18 middle of the week, but even now it looks like May.
19 Mr. Visnjic.
20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me just say that
21 if the -- if Mr. Ivetic's case finishes earlier we need at least five
22 days to organize other witnesses. This is just by way of information.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
24 Now, your next witness, Mr. Ivetic?
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think we had one procedural matter
1 that we needed to go into private session for regarding an issue of a
2 third party that Mr. Haider had advised me about that we should probably
3 do in private session.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, you mean you wish to raise a matter in private
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I wish to raise a matter.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes, very well.
8 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE BONOMY: Anything else you want to add, Mr. Ivetic?
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, at this stage for the reasons that we
17 stated in private session we are -- we have no further witnesses for
18 today and would ask that -- that the matter -- that the proceedings be
19 adjourned until our next court date, which I believe is Monday in the
20 morning I believe it is scheduled, at which time we will have a witness
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, if Mr. Kovacevic is not available, then the
23 two witnesses following him I think are listed as 92 ter witnesses and
24 there are at the moment no statements for either of them, so --
25 MR. IVETIC: We're expecting to have them this evening is what I
1 was promised, but we've been having -- like I said, we've tried to get
2 the assistance of our in-house translator in Belgrade to assist with some
3 of these to get draft translations for some of these so that the parties
4 had the adequate notice with the 48 hours prior to the date of the
5 testimony, and we've been trying to adhere to that and we'll do our best
6 on our side to get those out to everyone on e-mail as soon as we get them
8 JUDGE BONOMY: And what about the availability of Simonovic, is
9 he going to be here on Monday?
10 MR. IVETIC: Just a moment, Simonovic, I think he might be. I
11 don't know. He's -- he will be -- he's here, but I don't know whether --
12 yeah, I -- I don't know. That -- that is -- that was not a possibility
13 that I had foreseen. I guess I ought to have.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, you just need to keep every possibility in
15 mind. Mr. Hannis, no doubt, feels even more uncomfortable at that
16 prospect but it's not absolutely essential that the cross-examination
17 follows the examination-in-chief immediately.
18 In any event, as long as you have all the possibilities in mind,
19 then that would re-assure us.
20 MR. IVETIC: I will do my best, Your Honour.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Obviously in a moment we shall have no alternative
23 but to adjourn; however, we underline, Mr. Ivetic, that next week was a
24 week where we had planned lengthier sittings. We've not been able to
25 adhere to the idea of alternate days as we were able to in a previous
1 period because of the number of cases in the various courts and the
2 demands of these other cases. So we have to make use of the time when we
3 can find it, and therefore you should be conscious of the fact that there
4 is extra time next week, there are only four witnesses listed. So we
5 hope that anything you can do to ensure that the time will be usefully
6 occupied will be done.
7 We shall adjourn now until Monday at 9.00 in Court I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.17 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of
10 April, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.