1 Friday, 13 July 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Good morning to you, Mr. Harland.
12 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I establish that Mr. Mladic is not present in the
14 courtroom. The first item on the agenda, and also to some extent it also
15 affects you, Mr. Harland, is the health situation of the accused.
16 The Chamber was summarily and orally briefed by Mr. Petrov, the
17 representative of the Registry, before it decided yesterday to adjourn.
18 In the afternoon, the Presiding Judge had two brief telephone
19 conversations yesterday with Mr. Petrov. In the first conversation I
20 sought information about the time further medical tests for Mr. Mladic
21 would take and about the scope of the report the Chamber would receive.
22 In the second conversation Mr. Petrov informed me that one of the further
23 tests conducted would require the presence of Mr. Mladic for 24 hours and
24 that he, therefore, would not be able to attend court today, this
1 Meanwhile, the Chamber has received a courtesy copy of a medical
2 report and I would just like to inquire whether the parties have received
3 such a courtesy copy as well.
4 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution has as well, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And I see, Mr. Lukic, you are nodding yes, so you
6 have received that as well.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: There is no need further to discuss it at this
10 Which brings me to the following point, is that as matters stand
11 now the Chamber expects that we would not hear any evidence today but
12 that we would -- we would like to continue on Monday, which of course --
13 if we would continue the cross-examination of Mr. Harland we would have
14 to know whether you are available, Mr. Harland. I can imagine that you
15 are a bit surprised by the events, but you will understand that the
16 Chamber has hardly any influence on it.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have an obligation in
18 Geneva that runs from Monday afternoon to Tuesday evening, so in
19 principle I'm in extremis. I would be available if the Court were
20 meeting on the Monday morning session and then I would be available from
21 Wednesday to Friday, but after that I will be travelling in Africa, in
23 JUDGE ORIE: Which means you would be available Monday morning
24 you would say?
25 THE WITNESS: Monday morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You could then travel to your destination Monday
2 afternoon and possibly be back on Wednesday?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know that our court -- morning court
5 sessions usually go until 1.45 p.m.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's a matter to be further discussed.
8 I'm raising this matter, Mr. Groome, because you have informed us
9 about the availability of other witnesses next week. And it -- the
10 present situation might require a rescheduling of witnesses anyhow
11 because the Chamber is not much inclined to stop halfway the testimony of
12 one witness then to start with another one and then to revisit the
13 previous one. That is not what the Chamber would preferably want to
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do appreciate that. I guess one
16 question I would have, it seems to me - and this is just a rough
17 calculation - that based on the time that I believe Mr. Harland's going
18 to be cross-examined it does not appear that that would conclude
19 Monday --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think the Chamber instructed the Defence
21 that it should finish, as matters stood yesterday, within that morning
22 session, the cross-examination. I think we had close to one hour of
23 cross-examination which would mean at the end of Monday morning that
24 there would be one hour left and that of course depends on how many
25 questions there are in re-examination and how many questions there are
1 from the Judges. I would not exclude the possibility that we would be
2 able to finish on Monday. At the same time, I would agree with you that
3 there's no guarantee.
4 MR. GROOME: Well, having said that then, the witness scheduled
5 for Tuesday, Ms. Schmitz, it was very difficult to arrange her arrival.
6 I believe it's completely inflexible. So it may be that we have to go
7 and check and see whether she can be rescheduled.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Why would she need to be rescheduled? If she could
9 arrive on Tuesday, you said she could arrive on Tuesday.
10 MR. GROOME: Yes, I'm sorry, I'm thinking on my feet. Maybe that
11 would be okay, and it would seem to me that General Dannatt then would
12 have to be postponed until after the summer recess.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do see that we have problems in hearing the
14 evidence of Mr. Dannatt.
15 MR. GROOME: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give it some thought, and preliminarily I
17 would then -- for continuing the cross-examination of Mr. Harland to be
18 concluded one hour before the end of the morning session and then to see
19 whether we can -- whether re-examination and Chamber questions, if there
20 are any.
21 MR. GROOME: Yes. And, Your Honour, then if I could then request
22 that it seems from paragraph 5 and 6 - and I won't refer to it because
23 it's a confidential filing - it seems that there may be some information
24 that is confirmed later today, I would ask that this all depends on it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Everything depends on whether any
1 information to be received later of this day would be an obstacle to
2 proceeding as we now tentatively schedule.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Any comments on this, Mr. Lukic? If not, then I
5 think, Mr. Harland, as far as you are concerned, there's nothing to be
6 further discussed. Therefore, I'd like to give you the same instruction
7 as I gave to you before, that is, not to speak or communicate with anyone
8 about your testimony, whether already given or still to be given. And
9 it's unfortunate for you that it takes this course, but we can't change
10 it. We would like to see you back on Monday morning.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If there are any other developments, you will be
13 kept informed about any changes scheduled. And perhaps it's good that
14 your communications with the Prosecution -- no, not the Prosecution
15 because they are not at this moment in a position to contact you anymore,
16 but VWS is arranged in such a way that you don't miss messages and are
17 here on Monday morning for nothing.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you are excused, although only until
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic and Mr. Groome, we could deal with a few
24 procedural matters in the absence of Mr. Mladic, but of course it's part
25 of the proceedings, we have no waiver not to attend. Let me be clear to
1 you, it would be possibly discussions on associated documents to exchange
2 by the parties any objections. It could be about the position of the
3 Defence on admission of the map binder if -- and the other matter I could
4 imagine we would deal with is a short putting on the record a few matters
5 in relation to 92 bis filings.
6 I would like to hear from you whether there's any objection
7 against proceeding on this very limited agenda of procedural matters.
8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we didn't anticipate that we would do
9 anything today, so we are not ready for -- to respond to this associated
10 exhibits letter we received from the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think -- okay, that's the associated
12 documents. Admission of the map binder, is that a matter on which the
13 Defence has developed any thoughts and whether it could, in the present
14 situation, submit those -- that position?
15 MR. LUKIC: My colleague who is not with us is actually in charge
16 of those maps --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then the only matter remaining is to put on the
18 record a few matters in relation to 92 bis filings, and that's -- I think
19 we can do because it's just putting on the record. It has been done out
20 of court. And leave all the rest until you have prepared for it and
21 until your team member -- I see there are five, but apparently it's the
22 sixth one who is dealing with the matter.
23 Mr. Groome, before I put a few matters on the record, anything
24 you would like to raise at this moment?
25 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I state the following: On the
2 10th of November, 2011, the Chamber provided guidance to the parties in
3 relation to the filing of Rule 92 bis motions. I refer the parties to
4 transcript page 108, and I quote:
5 "Each Rule 92 bis motion should deal with no more than five to
6 ten witnesses each. The motions should be filed at least two to three
7 weeks apart in order to give the other party sufficient time to respond.
8 The first Rule 92 bis motion of the Prosecution should be filed as early
9 as possible and no later than one week after the filing of the
10 Prosecution's witness list."
11 The Chamber notes that the Prosecution intends to present a large
12 number of witnesses' evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis and also notes,
13 with some concern, that it has received only two Rule 92 bis motions, one
14 of which was subsequently withdrawn.
15 Mr. Groome, could you inform the Chamber on the timetable the
16 Prosecution has in mind for the filing of its Rule 92 bis motions?
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the filing of 92 bis motions is very
18 much related to our analysis on adjudicated facts. Our initial analysis
19 of adjudicated facts is that we may not be applying for many of these
20 92 bis, so rather than give them to the Chamber and withdraw them, we are
21 busily analysing the adjudicated facts and identifying which ones. There
22 are some that are in progress, and I hope that we will in the very near
23 future begin a regular process of filing these, but there is a very
24 strong relationship between the adjudicated facts and our reliance on
25 them and the 92 bis witnesses.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any chance that you'd file the first one
2 before the summer recess?
3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll not further insist at this moment
5 for further information.
6 If there's nothing else to be raised at this moment, we adjourn
7 and we'll resume on Monday, the 16th of July, 9.00 in the morning in this
8 same courtroom, I.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.32 a.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of
11 July, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.