Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 922

 1                           Tuesday, 17 July 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, yesterday in my absence there

12     was a short discussion about scheduling.  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is still

13     considering whether or not to adapt in whatever way our schedule, but

14     unfortunately not for today but -- and of course on the longer term we

15     might have further discussions on the matter.  But for today we stick to

16     the usual schedule.

17             Then if there are no preliminaries, is the Prosecution ready to

18     call its next witness?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Good morning, everyone.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.  And that would be Ms. Schmitz?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while we're waiting for that, there is

24     a short matter that I can report to the Chamber, if it pleases the Court,

25     now.

Page 923

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so if we can deal with it.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, yesterday 65 ter 10822 was marked as

 3     P15 and marked for identification because the Defence objected to the

 4     admission of this document as an exhibit because it is in English yet

 5     purports to be authored by General Dragomir Milosevic.  Mr. Lukic was

 6     correct in raising this objection.  Having investigated the matter, I

 7     have some idea about the possible explanation for why this is.  I think

 8     it is most appropriate to lead evidence on it with an upcoming witness.

 9     So at this stage the Prosecution will not move forward with the tendering

10     but will lead additional evidence to explain the circumstances as to why

11     it's in English.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will then wait for that witness to appear

13     and P15 remains marked for identification.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

16             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Schmitz, I take it.  Ms. Schmitz, before you

18     give evidence the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that

19     you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20     The text is now handed out to you by the usher.  May I invite you to make

21     that solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

23     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Schmitz.  Please be seated.

25             You'll first be examined by the Prosecution.

Page 924

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           WITNESS: CHRISTINE SCHMITZ

 3                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 4        Q.   Good morning.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us your name, please.

 7        A.   My name is Christine Schmitz.

 8        Q.   And you recently testified in the Karadzic case?

 9        A.   Yes, I did, end of March.

10        Q.   And you've had a chance to look at your -- what we've referred to

11     and is marked as the amalgamated statement for this case?

12        A.   I did.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, that is 65 ter 28321.

14        Q.   And is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?

15        A.   It is true and correct.

16        Q.   And if you were asked about that information, would you be giving

17     the same answers related to that information?

18        A.   Yes, I would.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that statement into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Petrusic will cross-examine this

23     witness so --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  He will deal with the rest of --

Page 925

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections against the statement --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.  No objections.

 4             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10638 becomes Exhibit P27, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P27 is admitted into evidence.

 7             You may proceed.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second.  That's the wrong --

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The number is wrong.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The number is wrong.  Madam Registrar, would you

13     please.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  The number -- document number --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  -- 10638 becomes Exhibit P27, Your Honours.  No.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's supposed to be document 28321.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document -- I apologise, Your Honours.  Document

19     28321 becomes Exhibit P27.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P27 is now for the third time admitted into

22     evidence.  It is undated, the amalgamated statement of Ms. Schmitz.

23             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now I'll read a summary of that statement for

25     everyone.

Page 926

 1             Christine Schmitz is a qualified nurse.  She first began her work

 2     with the NGO Doctors Without Borders, known as MSF, in 1991.  In her work

 3     as a nurse for MSF, she's worked around the world in places as Somalia,

 4     Iraq, Liberia, Sudan, and Chechnya.  On June 24th, 1995, Ms. Schmitz

 5     arrived in Srebrenica in the enclave belong with her MSF colleague,

 6     Dr. Daniel O'Brien.  Ms. Schmitz took up the post of field co-ordinator

 7     for the MSF project in the Srebrenica enclave, basically in charge of

 8     that project.

 9             The project had been up and running and was centred upon offering

10     medical care to the population of the enclave.  Ms. Schmitz monitored the

11     MSF medical programme in Srebrenica and supervised the local staff.

12     Along with her medical duties, Ms. Schmitz had responsibility for

13     security issues, liaison with local authorities, other NGOs, and the

14     Dutch Battalion, known as DutchBat.  She made regular reports via telex

15     to MSF in Belgrade.  She lived in a house next to the hospital near the

16     centre of Srebrenica town.

17             After her arrival, Ms. Schmitz was informed by UNHCR and the

18     local authorities that there was a shortage of food in the enclave and

19     that some people were suffering from starvation.  MSF in Belgrade had

20     informed her that the Bosnian Serbs were refusing to allow regular food

21     and medical convoys to the enclave.  On July 6th there was a definite

22     change in the situation in Srebrenica and she was awakened by heavy

23     shelling that sounded close to the town but not in the town itself.  She

24     moved to the bunker under the hospital.  During the following days, a

25     pattern developed of periods of heavy shelling in and around the town

Page 927

 1     interspersed with periods of quiet.  Due to the shelling, an increased

 2     number of shelling victims were brought to the hospital for treatment.

 3             By 10 July the hospital was so full of wounded that the doctors

 4     had difficulty coping.  On the 10th, shells began landing in town,

 5     including right across the street from the hospital.  The population of

 6     Srebrenica was extremely frightened and seeking protection with the UN

 7     forces.  The local Muslim medical staff feared for the patients and

 8     wanted to evacuate them and spoke of atrocities at the Vukovar Hospital

 9     earlier in the war.  On 11 July the local population left towards the

10     Dutch base in Potocari.  The local doctors at the hospital decided to

11     evacuate the patients and move everyone to Potocari due to the increasing

12     danger, and Ms. Schmitz and Dr. O'Brien accepted that.

13             Ms. Schmitz and others joined a large number of Muslims walking

14     up the road to Potocari.  She could hear shells exploding close to the

15     road as they walked.  She reached the UN compound in Potocari that

16     afternoon and by the evening of 11 July estimated about 20.000 Muslims

17     had assembled in the area around the UN base.  As she walked through the

18     crowd of Muslims that evening, she noticed shells frequently exploding in

19     the vicinity and people were sitting in the open air shivering with fear

20     and begging her to take them inside the UN enclave.

21             On 12 July she supervised the set-up of medical treatment tents

22     by DutchBat across the street from the UN compound.  While arranging this

23     she met briefly with the local Muslim logistics officer named Meho.  She

24     implored him to come to the compound with her for his personal safety and

25     to assist in the sanitation system.  But he refused in order to stay with

Page 928

 1     his family and she's not seen him since that time.  At about noon

 2     Ms. Schmitz was informed by DutchBat that General Mladic wanted to begin

 3     evacuating the sick and wounded Muslims.  She objected to this as the

 4     patients were her responsibility and she did not think it was right to

 5     turn them over to the Bosnian Serbs for transport.  She sought out

 6     General Mladic and found him just outside the compound gates where she

 7     spoke to him briefly on the matter.

 8             During the day she drove up and down the main road looking for

 9     patients.  During this time she noticed mainly women and children and

10     some old men being loaded onto buses and she was told people were being

11     separated, though she did not see this at this point.  She did notice

12     that people were exhausted and frightened and desperate to leave.  That

13     evening, sometime before 9.00 p.m., she continued to drive along the road

14     seeking out patients.  At this point she again encountered General Mladic

15     and sought his permission to continue her search and the General agreed

16     she could.

17             On the 13th of July, the transportation of the local population

18     continued.  A Muslim man followed by a Serb soldier with a rifle

19     approached Ms. Schmitz and handed her his baby.  The man was crying and

20     very frightened.  Ms. Schmitz also witnessed that day the beating of a

21     Muslim man by Bosnian Serb soldiers.  From the 14th to the 17th, much of

22     her time was spent negotiating for the evacuation of MSF patients and

23     their local staff.  MSF had seven local male workers and one local female

24     interpreter working for them.  On 17 July, the MSF patients were

25     evacuated safely by the ICRC from the enclave.  On 21 July Ms. Schmitz,

Page 929

 1     Dr. O'Brien, and eight local staff and five of their relatives, along

 2     with two patients, were allowed to leave the enclave and travel to

 3     Zagreb.

 4        Q.   Is that a correct summary of some of what you have told us in

 5     your statement?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, two observations.  First, the

 8     summary, three full pages, the Chamber had in mind close to one page.  So

 9     it's a very extensive summary.  Could you please keep that in mind.

10     Second, it's just for the public, so whether the summary is accurate or

11     not of course is not for the witness because the summary is not evidence.

12     The evidence is the statement, nothing more, nothing less.  Please

13     proceed.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

15        Q.   If we can go over a couple of the points that were brought up

16     just to provide some context and some clarification.  When you mention

17     that on 10 July the hospital was so full of wounded that there was

18     difficulty coping, can you give us a rough estimate of, you know, how

19     many wounded or injured people there were in the hospital at that point?

20        A.   Well, I think the hospital was not totally full yet at that time.

21     It had not been full at all before the bombing started.  I think the main

22     issue about not coping was that we did only have one national surgeon who

23     was totally overworked.  We were not allowed to have an international

24     surgeon who would have been very helpful at this time, so he was only

25     able to operate on one patient at a time assisted by another general

Page 930

 1     practitioner.

 2             So patients being brought in, for example, suffering of shrapnel

 3     wounds could not be taken care of in case they needed an operation

 4     because he was only able to work on one patient.  So they were laying

 5     patients everywhere in the corridors.  There was one truck who was still

 6     functioning and did have fuel, so -- this truck had a special horn, and

 7     when we did hear the horn - and we did hear that often - then we knew

 8     more patients were coming in.  The hospital was totally full but also

 9     with relatives and friends who were worried about the wounded.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Schmitz, sorry to interrupt, but would you

11     please focus your answer on the question because you have now explained

12     why there was only one doctor.  The simple question was whether you give

13     an estimate of the number of wounded.

14             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Sorry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And injured people in the hospital, and we are

16     limited in our time.

17             Yes, please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Yes, roughly how many people was that, if you recall?  Just your

20     best estimate.

21        A.   My best estimate would be 50 to 60 patients.

22        Q.   And who were these folks?  Were they -- were there able-bodied

23     men among them?  Were there any women and children?  Just can you give us

24     a description of who they were and what kind of injuries they had?  Just

25     very briefly.

Page 931

 1        A.   There were women and children among the patients, but the bigger

 2     part were young men who were being brought from the centre and the

 3     surrounding.

 4        Q.   And what were their injuries, basically?

 5        A.   Most of the injuries were results from the bombings, so shrapnel

 6     wounds, yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And you had told us in your statement that the doctor, the

 8     local doctors, were afraid and wanted to move the patients out and

 9     mentioned something about Vukovar Hospital.  What were your understanding

10     of what this reference to Vukovar hospital was?

11        A.   Well, I didn't know all the details, but I had understood or I

12     just knew that in Vukovar years earlier, some 200 patients had been just

13     killed in the hospital beds and this is what local doctors wanted to

14     avoid and therefore bring them to Potocari.

15        Q.   Was there any knowledge with you at the time on who allegedly had

16     killed the patients of the Vukovar Hospital?

17        A.   No, not exactly.

18        Q.   Do you know which side, which army, if anyone, or was it just

19     unknown?

20        A.   No, that was not known to me.

21        Q.   Okay.  All right.  And as you were going up towards Potocari with

22     the crowd, you said you could hear shells exploding close to the road.

23     Can you describe that briefly and what you made of those shells exploding

24     close to the road?

25        A.   Well, it -- to me it appeared as if the shells were supposed to

Page 932

 1     fall like this, that the crowd did stay on the road and did not try --

 2     the people did not try to escape, but that was my feeling.  I understood

 3     it like this, we should stay on the road and nobody was supposed to

 4     escape.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us how you got that feeling?  That's hard to

 6     imagine.

 7        A.   It's -- okay.  Difficult to explain.  And it was not so that the

 8     shell was exploding right close to a person but maybe 5 to 10 metres

 9     further, exactly.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now you also said that when you were walking around the

11     compound, the local Muslims were shivering with fear.  What do you mean

12     by that?  Can you just describe that?  Try to put us there briefly.

13        A.   Well, that was the time of the 11th and 12th, 11th especially, in

14     the evening when all the displaced had arrived in Potocari.  They were

15     just sitting and shivering with fear when the shells were falling and

16     very afraid and trembling and very -- also in apathetic state, they were

17     basically shocked not knowing what was going to happen, so they were very

18     desperate.

19        Q.   And where were these shells falling at this point, as far as you

20     could make out?

21        A.   Again, certainly shells were falling around Potocari, around the

22     compound, around the place, outside the UN compound where the displaced

23     were just sitting on the ground.  Given that I was then in Potocari, I

24     don't know if more shells were falling in Srebrenica itself.

25        Q.   Now let's --

Page 933

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, could I seek clarification of one of

 2     the previous answers.

 3             You said: "It was not that the shell was exploding right close to

 4     a person but maybe 5 to 10 metres further, exactly."  Do I understand

 5     that the persons you refer to were persons on the road --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and that the shells fell within 5 to 10 metres,

 8     so immediately next to the road?  Is that -- 5 to 10 metres -- 5 metres

 9     is the distance between you and me at this moment.  Was it that close?

10             THE WITNESS:  It was that close, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  None of the shells hit the road ever?

12             THE WITNESS:  Not when I was present and on the road with the

13     population.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How many shells did you see falling within such a

15     short distance from the road?  Was it one or ten or 50, approximately?

16             THE WITNESS:  That is difficult to say because I was not always

17     watching when the shells were falling, but just rather trying to look

18     ahead because we were driving behind a walking population.  I did more

19     hear them.  So on the way down to Potocari -- it's difficult for me to

20     say if it were two or 20.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it by sound that you determined that they were

22     falling within 5 or 10 metres or did you -- I mean, if a shell falls at

23     such a short distance, you would expect more than just to hear the sound

24     but also to see something, dust -- well, you may be better aware of how

25     an explosion looks but ...

Page 934

 1             THE WITNESS:  It was mostly by hearing.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next day, on the 12th of July, that's

 6     a day when the Bosnian Serb army arrived.  And you mentioned that you

 7     sought out General Mladic to speak to him about what you'd heard was his

 8     plan, to remove your patients.  And what time -- roughly what time of day

 9     did you search out General Mladic?

10        A.   That was around noon.

11        Q.   And did you find him?

12        A.   Yes, I did -- well, I did not go on my own, but I did go with one

13     of the UN liaison team, whose name I don't remember or maybe even never

14     knew, and he was just outside the compound on the street.

15        Q.   Sorry, who was?

16        A.   Ratko Mladic, together with his interpreter, was outside of the

17     UN compound just on the street.

18        Q.   And can you describe the scene at that time that you saw

19     General Mladic?

20        A.   It was very crowded, very hot.  He was walking down towards me,

21     although not on purpose I believe towards me but just that direction, so

22     I went to see him.

23        Q.   Did he have anyone with him?

24        A.   Yeah, he did have an interpreter with him, a young guy.

25        Q.   And what was he wearing?

Page 935

 1        A.   Mr. Mladic was wearing camouflage, so a uniform.

 2        Q.   And what happened?

 3        A.   Well, I did go up to him and introduced myself, who we were, what

 4     our work was in Srebrenica, and I did also explain to him that we would

 5     be also working on -- in other areas, supporting Serbian population.  And

 6     then I said that I had heard that he had wanted to evacuate the patients

 7     and that I would strongly object against it, that I would feel it would

 8     be the responsibility of MSF to organise the evacuation and not the BSA.

 9        Q.   And what was his response, if any?

10        A.   Well, I do not know what his response was because he did speak in

11     Serbo-Croatian, but his translator, his interpreter, just told me that I

12     should go and do my job and that was it.

13        Q.   Do you recall the General's physical expression, attitude towards

14     you?

15        A.   I had the feeling that I was disturbing him.  He wasn't

16     interested in what I had to say.

17        Q.   What gave you that feeling?

18        A.   He did not really react on what I said.

19        Q.   And how were you able to conclude this was General Mladic?

20        A.   I knew him from before from different media broadcasts.

21        Q.   All right.  And when did the -- did the patients actually get

22     evacuated first, as you heard was going to happen?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   All right.  And just remind us, when did the -- your patients

25     actually get evacuated?

Page 936

 1        A.   On the 17th of July, in the evening, by ICRC.

 2        Q.   All right.  And did you again see General Mladic that evening?

 3        A.   Yes, I did see General Mladic on the 12th of July, in the

 4     evening, around 9.00, when I was again outside among the displaced

 5     looking for patients.  I saw him and I had the feeling that there was a

 6     question in his face like:  What is she doing here?  And so together with

 7     my female interpreter, Amira, I went up to him and requested to be

 8     allowed to pick up sick and wounded and he agreed.

 9        Q.   And could we go to 65 ter 28323.  Do you recall making a rough

10     sketch of the Potocari area, the UN compound?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  That was 1999.

12        Q.   And that should hopefully come up on the screen.  Is this your

13     sketch?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   And there should also be -- I believe there's a translation of

16     it, though it's pretty clear.  We see "Bratunac" in the top.  I don't

17     know if we catch the whole bottom of that.  Maybe we make it a little

18     smaller because I think there's Srebrenica in the arrow towards the

19     bottom.  And DutchBat compound, is that the rough triangle to the right

20     of the picture?

21        A.   That's a kind of square, different -- there were different

22     buildings, so it's really a rough sketch.

23        Q.   Okay.  And these parallel lines in the middle, what is that?

24        A.   The one going up to Bratunac is the street that was Tarmac, and

25     horizontal to that didn't mean anything.  That was on the right side but

Page 937

 1     also some on the left side where the big groups of displaced people just

 2     sitting on the ground.

 3        Q.   All right.  And the -- there's a triangles and I think you've

 4     marked tents there for your -- that's where you set up your medical area?

 5        A.   Yes -- well, that was the beginning.  We didn't use them at all

 6     in the end because -- yeah, we did not.

 7        Q.   Okay and --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Tents where, Mr. McCloskey?  I can't read the

 9     writing here, it's too small.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   There's a pen, she'll show you -- someone will show you how to

12     write, and if you could circle the area of the tents.

13        A.   So opposite the Dutch compound I had requested some UN soldiers

14     to put up some tents which I had wanted to use for triage, to see

15     patients, so these were three tents from the UNPROFOR who set it up.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we see, for the record, she's circled that

18     area.

19        Q.   And I know this is not -- this is not to scale, but can you see

20     about the area where you first had that brief meeting with General Mladic

21     about the transport of the patients?  And if you could put an M there if

22     you can identify where you first ran into him.

23        A.   It's here.

24        Q.   All right.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right, I'd offer this exhibit into evidence.

Page 938

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic, no.  One second, please.

 2     If you want to discuss anything with counsel, it's better -- your voice

 3     is very loud if your earphones are still in.  We can even hear through

 4     our -- yes, you would like to consult for a second with Mr. Lukic.

 5     Please do so.

 6                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, can we continue?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we can.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             First I would like to seek one clarification of one of the

11     answers and then we'll deal with the marked sketch.

12             Ms. Schmitz, you told us about the first encounter you had with

13     Mr. Mladic.  Then you were asked when did your patients actually get

14     evacuated?  You said on the 17th of July in the evening by the ICRC.

15     Then the next question was:

16             "All right.  And did you again see General Mladic that evening?"

17             Your answer was:

18             "Yes, I did see General Mladic on the 12th of July in the

19     evening."

20             Mr. McCloskey was not entirely clear whether that evening was the

21     evening of the 12th of July or of the 17th of July.  Did I understand

22     your testimony well that you did again see Mr. Mladic in the evening of

23     the 12th of July but not on the 17th of July?

24             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 939

 1             THE WITNESS:  I met him twice on the 12th of July.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. McCloskey, "that evening" is asking for confusion.  It has

 4     been clarified.

 5             Any objection against the admission into evidence of the sketch?

 6             May I take it you would be happy with the sketch as marked by the

 7     witness or do you need two versions?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think just one marked is fine.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Petrusic, no objections?

11             MR PETRUSIC:  [No interpretation].

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28323, marked by the witness, becomes

14     Exhibit P28, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P28 is admitted.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, we can see that you've got a binder of things in

19     front of you that you've glanced at a bit.  Can you tell us what that is?

20        A.   These are mainly all the Telexes.  Most of them I had sent to our

21     team in Belgrade and there are a few whom I received back.  I didn't

22     rescue all of them, but the ones I wrote I have them with me here.

23        Q.   All right.  And if you need to take a look at those to refresh

24     your recollection or help answer a question, just let us know and I think

25     that should be fine.

Page 940

 1             In fact, now I just want to go over a few of those to give us a

 2     feeling about the kind of things you were reporting.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So could we go to 65 ter 19814.

 4        Q.   And we'll see there is an original -- that is not what I've got.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, it's page 3 in e-court -- in the English

 6     and 1 in B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Now, you can see from this that we have somehow got a copy that

 8     has a marking on it over the -- over certain part of it.  Do you have --

 9     can you, first of all, tell us what this is?

10        A.   This is the first Telex which I wrote on the 6th of July.

11        Q.   And we don't see the 6th of July written anywhere there.  Where

12     would the -- is that written on that document somewhere?

13        A.   You mean on my document?

14        Q.   So the one on the screen.  Good question.

15        A.   Well, it's under the mark.

16        Q.   All right.  And what time of day is it from the document itself?

17     Can we tell?

18        A.   It's 4.52 in the morning.

19        Q.   All right.  And we see that on the Telex.  All right.  And this

20     is where you say that:

21             "... since 45 minutes heavy shelling of the surrounding of the

22     town, not in the town itself."

23             Is that a true and correct communication to Belgrade?

24        A.   That is my true communication, but of course it was judging by

25     hearing where the shells were falling.  I couldn't get any more

Page 941

 1     confirmation on that.

 2        Q.   And when you say that you're dismantling the radio and will go to

 3     the shelter, what do you mean by that?

 4        A.   Well, that means that in -- that's the security who were with

 5     MSF, if there's bombing, you should seek protection in a bunker so -- and

 6     the radio, we did need to keep up the communication with Belgrade.  So I

 7     took the radio and Daniel and myself went into the bunker.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that document into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, before we further discuss this

11     document, this document is in e-court 1 out of 75 pages.  You just want

12     this page?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I've decided just to take a

14     few examples and not have the entire collection unless --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this should be newly uploaded.  We can't just

16     admit 1 out of 75 pages into evidence.  A new upload exercise has to be

17     done.  This brings me to my second point.  The witness said that the date

18     is under the marking.

19             Now, I do understand, first of all, the marking does not appear

20     at all in the B/C/S translation.  It's just as if it says "UTC Vri jeme"

21     and then gives the time.  Now if you carefully look at it, the last two

22     digits of what seems to be under the marking seems to be 06, which would

23     be perhaps in accordance with the date the witness gave us.  Is there any

24     version where by copying -- any version where the original can be looked

25     at so that we know what is under the marking?  Because that usually

Page 942

 1     disappears if you start colouring or marking.  Is there any better

 2     version of it?  Perhaps the witness would know.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I asked that same question of the OTP and the

 4     answer was no, but I did not go to the witness for that, so perhaps --

 5             THE WITNESS:  The originals are with me and they are not marked,

 6     but they are not here in The Hague.  They are in Berlin.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any way that you could provide even

 8     copies of the unmarked versions would reveal the date again.  Is there

 9     any way that -- for example, that this one, perhaps you write down which

10     one it is --

11             THE WITNESS:  Sure.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- be sent to the Office of the Prosecution.

13             THE WITNESS:  Could I have a pen?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if we -- if the witness has a piece of paper

15     and a pen so that she can write down.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you so much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. McCloskey, please keep this in your mind.

18     We can't mark it identification because then we'll have had the whole 75

19     pages, so please reorganise your exhibits in such a way that we later can

20     discuss the -- either the marking for identification or admission into

21     evidence of this document.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ms. Stewart's got me on -- in control on that

23     right now, so we should be there soon.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll hear from you.  Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 943

 1        Q.   Let's go to another one.  65 ter 19814, it should be page 5 in

 2     e-court.  It's English page 5 and B/C/S page 2.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's another wrong -- mistake.  19814, we've just

 4     finished with.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- again, that's now page 5 out of the 75

 7     pages?  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, these are all from the same 65 ter number,

 9     which was -- created a bit of the issue before.  So I'll just go to the

10     e-court page and sort this out.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And there's no problem with it -- the date.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   Now, do you recognise this?

15        A.   Sure, I do.

16        Q.   And what is it?

17        A.   Well, it's one of my next Telexes on the 6th of July after the

18     security meeting which usually was taking place in Srebrenica at 10.00.

19     So usually after the meeting I went home and sent to the team in Belgrade

20     the key issues.  So if you read security:  5th of July, indicators of the

21     attack, et cetera, that were not my information but this information came

22     from the security meeting.

23        Q.   And can you tell us, was this security meeting a regular meeting?

24        A.   Yes, it was a daily meeting in the P TT meeting opposite the

25     hospital.

Page 944

 1        Q.   And who took part in these regular meetings?

 2        A.   So one person of DutchBat usually took part; one or two UNMOs,

 3     United Nations Military Observers; sometimes the national staff of ICRC;

 4     sometimes the national staff of UNHCR; and myself.

 5        Q.   All right.  And in looking at this we see:  "6/7 0.30 a.m. six

 6     rockets at UNPROFOR compound (two exploded)."  Can you tell us what that

 7     6/7 means, if you recall?

 8        A.   That's the date.  That happened in that morning, according to the

 9     security meeting.

10        Q.   And I sometimes confuse dates.  Can you just confirm what this --

11     what actual dates these are?

12        A.   It does mean 6th of -- the information from the security meeting

13     was that on the same day, 6th of July, 30 minutes after midnight, six

14     rockets at UNPROFOR compound.

15        Q.   Now, do you know or recall which UNPROFOR compound received these

16     rockets?

17        A.   It was the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari.

18        Q.   And is there another UNPROFOR compound?

19        A.   There was a much smaller one called Bravo Company, which was

20     approximately 1 kilometre further from the hospital towards the north.

21     So between Potocari and the hospital there was Bravo Company.  If they

22     would have fallen there, we would have heard them.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I will also be offering this exhibit.

24        Q.   Could we go to another one of your documents.  This is e-court

25     page 22, the same 65 ter number, page 7 in the B/C/S.  We can again see

Page 945

 1     this is from you.  Is this another one of your Telexes, this time dated

 2     the 10th of July?

 3        A.   I still haven't found it, 10.55.  Yes, I did find it and indeed

 4     it's a Telex of myself to UNPROFOR.

 5        Q.   And that is UNPROFOR in the enclave, DutchBat UNPROFOR; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes, at Potocari.

 8        Q.   And we see that you conclude here -- well you say in the first

 9     sentence that:

10             "... now the surrounding of the hospital and our house are being

11     targeted by the shells."

12             Can you tell us upon which -- what observations or information

13     you made that conclusion?

14        A.   Well, this Telex was triggered by the fact that one shell fell

15     and exploded right across the hospital which -- or towards our bunker, so

16     it was extremely close.  And in general the bombing had concentrated on

17     the centre, so the danger of the shells falling came closer towards us.

18     But the most - how to say? - impressive or shocking was the shell across

19     the hospital and I was -- after it had exploded I ran there to see if

20     people were wounded, which were not, but I could see the crater of it and

21     the windows were broken in the hospital from this explosion.

22        Q.   Can you tell us how you were first aware of the explosion?  Which

23     of your senses caught this explosion?

24        A.   I was in the bunker and I heard an enormous noise - that was the

25     explosion.  And my first thought was:  This could have been just in front

Page 946

 1     of the bunker and I would be trapped, so it shocked me and I was

 2     trembling with fear a second.  So -- but then I realised I could still go

 3     outside and --

 4        Q.   And when did you go outside?

 5        A.   Maybe a minute after.

 6        Q.   And what did you see?

 7        A.   I did run outside and did see the crater opposite the road -- no,

 8     not opposite the road, opposite the hospital, opposite our bunker where

 9     the shell had exploded.

10        Q.   Can you give us again your best estimate in metres how far this

11     crater was from the hospital?

12        A.   Maybe 10 to 15 metres.

13        Q.   Again, you can use the courtroom.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what, in your estimate, is the

15     width of this courtroom?

16             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I'm just trying.  Well, if I would be where

17     the person is sitting until the wall there, is that 15 metres

18     approximately?  That was approximately the distance.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now there are many persons seated there.  May I

20     take it --

21             THE WITNESS:  The first person to me --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the lady -- the lady closest to you, and then --

23             THE WITNESS:  There is only one lady.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the --

25             THE WITNESS:  The first lady.

Page 947

 1             JUDGE ORIE: -- the second row in the courtroom on the Defence

 2     side, 15 metres.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Now can we go to one more of the communications.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, perhaps one question.

 8             The hospital was not hit; is that correctly understood.

 9             THE WITNESS:  The hospital was not hit itself.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   I'd like to go to -- I have 19832, it's page 1 in e-court in

13     English.  And we'll see a date of this - to help you - it should be the

14     10th of July.  And this is, according to the document, to you and Daniel,

15     and we see:

16             "From Bene, Pitou, and Stef."

17             Can you tell us what this is, this document to you?

18        A.   This is a Telex from the team in Belgrade.  Bene was the

19     administrator, Pitou the logistician, and Stefan the head of mission.

20     And they tried to cheer us up a bit.

21        Q.   I can see that.  Now, you note that -- or, excuse me, they note

22     that:

23             "As we said on the radio, we agree with your analysis on your

24     security conditions ..."

25             What is this reference to the radio?  Can you explain to us your

Page 948

 1     communication ability on radio?

 2        A.   I do not remember on what these exactly was the response.  I can

 3     only imagine.  I mean we spoke every day.  At the time of the 10th of

 4     July, we tried to stay as much in the bunker, but in quiet times Daniel

 5     went into the hospital to help.  I did go to the security meetings.

 6     Sometimes we went to the house to have a shower.  Also security --

 7        Q.   Sorry, just -- sorry for interrupting.

 8        A.   Okay.

 9        Q.   But just the radio, what kind of radio communications did you

10     have?  This is the first we've seen a reference to communication by

11     radio.

12        A.   I never know the name in English for what we use in German.  I

13     know only the name "radio."  Maybe Mr. Fluegge can help.

14     "Ein Funkgeraet."  I don't know if there is any other expression in

15     English for that.

16        Q.   That's fine.  We'll work with that.  But was it a two-way radio?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And where were you able to use it from?  Did it -- operate it out

19     of the bunker or did you have to go somewhere else?

20        A.   We could operate from the bunker, it was possible.  We had --

21     earlier we had used it in the house, there was an antenna, and we could

22     operate it in the bunker.  And later on in Potocari we did have a radio

23     in the car, so we were able to use it there only in the car because

24     nothing was installed in Potocari.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 949

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, before you continue, may I ask you

 2     for a clarification, Ms. Schmitz.  On page 26, lines 3 and 4, you told us

 3     who these three people are, Bene, Pitou, and Stef, but it was not

 4     correctly recorded.  Bene was the administrator; is that correct?

 5        A.   Benedict was her real name.  She was the administrator in

 6     Belgrade.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And who was Pitou?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Pitou was a nickname of Eric, who was the

 9     logistician.  And Stef was the abbreviation of Stefan who was the head of

10     mission in Belgrade, so basically my superior.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   All right.  Just looking briefly --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm very sorry, "the head of mission" instead

14     of "liaison."  It should read "head of mission" in line 17 of page 27.

15             Is that correct, head of mission?

16             THE WITNESS:  Head of mission, yes.  Not liaison.  I haven't said

17     that at all.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have it now.  Thanks.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And just taking a look at paragraph 4 here, I won't read it all

21     out, but there's a mention that they believe it's important that you

22     agree with UNPROFOR to have regular contact and that they go on to say

23     that it would be good to ask them if they would be ready to come and pick

24     you up.  Did that ever happen, where UNPROFOR actually agreed to come

25     pick you up?

Page 950

 1        A.   They did agree to pick us up but it was not necessary.

 2        Q.   You walked?

 3        A.   No, we -- we took three of our -- well, we took all of our cars,

 4     which were three.

 5        Q.   All right.  And --

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll also be offering that as well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a one-page document.  No objections.  19832.

 8             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19832 becomes Exhibit P29, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P29 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Could we now go to 65 ter 28064 -- sorry that should be 65.  I

14     misread that.  So it's 28065, sorry.

15             Can you just tell us -- I mean, we see what it says this is, but

16     in your experience did you see any cards like this?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  This is a typical old ID card of MSF, old because it

18     did have the former logo on it, the cross, whilst nowadays we have a

19     human being as a logo.

20        Q.   And do you recognise this person?

21        A.   It's difficult to say because the last time when I was here I saw

22     that ID card as well, and I know who the person is, Meho, but also last

23     time I did say I would not have recognised him if I would just have seen

24     it out of the blue.  I did not know Meho well, I saw him only very

25     briefly only twice in the time I was in Srebrenica.

Page 951

 1        Q.   All right.  And has someone told you that this picture is Meho?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And is that the Meho that you refer to in your statement, the

 4     person that you implored to get -- to come into the base but he stayed

 5     with his family?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this exhibit into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, may I ask you for what purposes, to

 9     give us an example of an ID card or to give us Meho?  Because the witness

10     said that she was unable to see whether this was him and that she was

11     told it was him, so for that purposes I would be hesitant to accept it as

12     evidence but -- or is it just to give an example of an ID card; and then,

13     of course, what's the relevance of knowing -- does it play any role

14     anywhere else?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can ask one more question and then perhaps that

16     will answer and I can also answer your question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Have you received information of where -- if Meho's remains were

20     ever recovered?

21        A.   Yes, I understood that Meho had been killed and found in a mass

22     grave and then the ID card was also found.  So --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that already in the statement, Mr. ...

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You know, I can't remember.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was.

Page 952

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe it is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not -- okay, but -- okay, even having heard the

 3     answer to that question, what is the probative value of this document?

 4     Is it about identity cards or is it about a person being recognised by

 5     the witness, where the witness said, I would not have recognised him but

 6     I was told that it was him?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if we -- you will hear or there

 8     will be part of the record evidence of the exhumation of this man and

 9     this was recovered in the exhumation.  It will help with proof of death,

10     it will help build context and tie into her testimony.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That clarifies everything for me.  It is an ID card

12     of which you'll later prove it was found with a certain person in a mass

13     grave.  Is that --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Any objections against admission?

16             If not, Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28065 becomes Exhibit P30, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And the last subject I want to ask you briefly about is you

21     mention in your statement that you spent some time before leaving the

22     enclave and negotiating for the evacuation of the wounded and your local

23     staff.  Can you tell us how many local staff you had working for you at

24     the time in the enclave?

25        A.   Well, we did have 13 local staff working for us, so drivers,

Page 953

 1     interpreters, cooks, cleaners, staff, which was not having anything to do

 2     medical programme.  Eight of these staff were staying with us in the UN

 3     compound.  Meho we just spoke about, and the remaining staff did choose

 4     their own way to leave Srebrenica.

 5        Q.   All right.  And could we go to 65 ter number 21103D.  It should

 6     be e-court page 1 in the English.  And this is, as you have been told, an

 7     intercept conversation that the Bosnian army intercepted, according to

 8     the Prosecution this is from -- intercept between VRS participants.  And

 9     I just want to ask you if you recognise any of the names on this

10     intercept.  The first page we see a Djurdjic, a Colonel Djurdjic, does

11     that name ring any bells for you?

12        A.   Not at all.

13        Q.   And Jankovic, does that mean anything for you?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And as we go to the bottom of the page, we see there's the name

16     clearly "Kristina" and then "(SSmit?)" meaning that it's not clear

17     exactly what word that is, and then we see below that also a question

18     mark "Daniel O'Brien."  I take it that those names are familiar to you?

19        A.   Yes, I think it's myself and Daniel.

20        Q.   All right.  And let's go to the next page if we can.  And again,

21     I'm really interested in the content at this point, but we do see a

22     reference in the middle of the page to the Koljevic government.  Does

23     this name "Koljevic" mean anything to you?

24        A.   Well, I understood that this was a professor in Pale where my

25     head of mission in Belgrade did have contact with.

Page 954

 1        Q.   All right.  And do you recall any contact that your head of

 2     office had at this time-period, this July, this intercept is from 19 July

 3     1995, as we can see from the original, the B/C/S version?

 4        A.   No, I do not recall any contact.

 5        Q.   All right.  And if we look down the intercepts, we see names

 6     Abdulah Kurtovic, Ibrahim Ibrahimovic and others.  Do any of those

 7     names -- do you remember any of those names?

 8        A.   Yes, very well.  Abdulah Kurtovic was our cook; Ibrahim, our

 9     house keeper; Muhidin, the assistant logistician; Muhamed the

10     logistician; Sahim [phoen], assistant logistician; and three drivers.

11        Q.   And were those all males?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Within the ages of 18 to 60?

14        A.   Yes, and it's seven.  It's the seven male staff being with us.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence, though of

16     course there will be more evidence on intercepts.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

18             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 21103D becomes Exhibit P31,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  You're talking about

22     an intercept.  Would the audio be included?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, just the transcript.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  This is one of the large collections of

Page 955

 1     Srebrenica intercepts where there is not audios.  There are some but --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for me to know.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   All right.  And lastly I'd like to go to 65 ter number 05817 and

 5     this has been under seal, so if we could just not broadcast it.  I

 6     believe the original is in B/C/S on your left and we have an English

 7     translation.  We see here --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, there's no need to go into private

 9     session for -- if it's under seal, then of course the testimony itself

10     could also reveal -- I do not know exactly why it is under seal, but

11     please think about it carefully, and I expect you to ask for private

12     session if you think that apart from the document, also the questions and

13     answer could reveal anything which should not be revealed to the public.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I think we're going to be able to have this

15     unsealed.  This had slipped through the cracks of the document, but out

16     of an abundance of caution we'll take care.

17        Q.   Have you seen this document before?  It's dated 19 July, the same

18     date as that intercept?

19        A.   I think I saw it before when I was here in March but I do not

20     have it.

21        Q.   All right.  And could you just take a look at those names and if

22     we could just briefly allow her to go through that to see the names.

23        A.   Well, it's basically our Belgium office who is sending a list of

24     the national staff to the 2nd Corps of the army.

25        Q.   And are those the same people you just saw mentioned in that

Page 956

 1     intercept?

 2        A.   Yes.  I -- so far I do see only four --

 3        Q.   If we could get on to the next --

 4        A.   -- but I believe there must come more.  So until number 8 it's

 5     the national staff.  Number 10 is the wife of our logistician, number 11

 6     the son of our logistician.  I believe number 9 is the mother of our

 7     logistician, number 12 is the son of our driver, number 13 is the son of

 8     our driver, and then 14, 15 are the two old patients who had been found

 9     later after the 13th of July and we were requested to take them, so we

10     did.

11        Q.   Did you have anything to do with the drafting of the receipt of

12     this particular letter?

13        A.   Not at all -- well, I did forward all the names to Belgrade, so

14     the information basically came from Srebrenica from MSF.

15        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever give any of these names of the staff to the

16     Bosnian Serb army folks?

17        A.   Yes, we did give a list of the staff.  I would have to consult my

18     own papers when we did that exactly, to whom.  On top of my head, I don't

19     remember that.

20        Q.   All right.  If perhaps you could do that at the break and tell

21     that to us.  And I also forgot to mention, do you still work for MSF?

22        A.   No, I don't.  I stopped in 2007.

23        Q.   And where do you work now?

24        A.   I'm working in mobile palliative care.  I now work as a volunteer

25     with the Jesuit Refugee Service.

Page 957

 1        Q.   And where is that?

 2        A.   That's in Berlin.

 3        Q.   So no Syria, no Libya anymore?

 4        A.   I would love to, but at present I do have family reasons why I

 5     have to stay, and I must say I'm exhausted after 15 different projects

 6     with MSF in acute war situations, so I need a rest.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, I have nothing further though I

 9     would like to offer this into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the -- under seal.

11             Any objection against the letter containing a list of names?

12             Madam Registrar, the number would be ... ?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05817 becomes Exhibit P32, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

15             Mr. Petrusic, I'm wondering, we could either take an early break

16     and then start cross-examination after the break or you could start now,

17     have another 12 to 13 minutes, and then continue after the break.  What's

18     your preference?

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, General Mladic would

20     prefer to have the break now for health reasons I've been told.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as far as health reasons are concerned, at

22     this moment there's nothing on our desk which supports that apart from

23     what Mr. Mladic feels.  Now, I have no problem in taking the break at

24     this very moment, but if you'd think that there is a health problem, then

25     that break should be used also to verify that to the extent possible.

Page 958

 1     Could you or Mr. Lukic then inform Madam Registrar whether there's

 2     anything which would need medical attention because then it should be

 3     done immediately and without delay.

 4             We take a break and we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start the cross-examination, could I hear

 9     from the -- from you, Mr. McCloskey, whether 19814, the various

10     documents, one starting at page 3, one starting at page 5, one starting

11     at page 7, whether they have been uploaded as separate documents, and

12     could you then provide the 65 ter numbers.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have not gotten that far

14     yet --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- but we will pull them out individually and get

17     them numbers.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll hear from you.  Please report once

19     that's done, when they are uploaded and released.

20             Then, Mr. Petrusic, if the witness comes in are you ready to

21     cross-examine the witness?

22             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just one thing I wanted to mention, Ms. Schmitz'

24     statement that came into evidence, it - as you'll see from looking at it,

25     it was done for the Karadzic case and the references to documents are --

Page 959

 1     have Karadzic 65 ter numbers.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So we put on the last page in e-court a legend,

 4     so where we have Mladic 65 ter numbers we provide those for anyone

 5     reading that that wants to look to see what she's referenced.  So I just

 6     spoke to Mr. Lukic about that and -- so that would be helpful, but that

 7     last page is an OTP product that we added on as a legend.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me see.  I have in front of me a list

 9     comparing the previous testimony, page numbers 40772 and 40773.  Is that

10     what you are referring to?  In which I find 65 ter numbers for both

11     cases.  That's the one?

12             Mr. Lukic, Mr. Petrusic, no problem with that I take it?

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Then the witness has entered the courtroom again.

16             Mr. Petrusic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

17             Ms. Schmitz, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic.

18     Mr. Petrusic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             Please proceed.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Ms. Schmitz, first of all, could you tell us

22     what you did before you joined Medecins Sans Frontieres?

23        A.   Well, I did my examination as a general nurse in 1984 and worked

24     then in different hospitals until 1989, when I left with a German NGO

25     called Kapagnenmor [phoen] to South Sudan.  There I got to know MSF and

Page 960

 1     so I switched to MSF and started with MSF beginning April 1991.

 2        Q.   From 1989 through 1995 you were involved only with work for the

 3     MSF?

 4        A.   No.  Between missions I did also work as a nurse and I did also

 5     work in the office of MSF in Bonn partly.

 6        Q.   When did you arrive in the area of the former Yugoslavia for the

 7     first time as a nurse?

 8        A.   I did work in Croatia from March until June 1991 with MSF at the

 9     Dalmatian coast, and then I arrived on the 6th of June, 1995, in Belgrade

10     in order to be deployed in Srebrenica.

11        Q.   Before June 6th, between these two missions in Srebrenica and

12     Dalmatia, were you in any other areas in the former Bosnia -- in Bosnia

13     and Herzegovina, any other areas that were under threat?

14        A.   I was not in any other areas of the former Yugoslavia.  I was in

15     other countries.

16        Q.   We will get to that a little later.  In one of the contacts that

17     you describe as a meeting with General Mladic on the 12th of July - and

18     you will remind me if I'm mistaken - but you said that you told

19     General Mladic that you had helped Serbs in Zenica.  I just want to jog

20     your memory.  Is this something that you actually said and did you ever

21     go to Zenica?

22        A.   Well, I haven't said it correctly like this.  What I did is I

23     informed Mr. Mladic that MSF is working in other areas supporting Serbian

24     population, and I never mentioned the place Zenica.  Personally I have

25     not been in any other areas of the former Yugoslavia, but colleagues.

Page 961

 1        Q.   In paragraph 12 of your statement dated the 21st of March of this

 2     year, you say that there were two kinds of personnel that was necessary

 3     for the work of the MSF.  Could you please tell us what personnel that

 4     was, personnel of the MSF, and were there any -- was there any medical

 5     staff there, local or people who worked for the Ministry of Health of the

 6     former Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Could you tell us something about that?

 7        A.   Yes.  So the national MSF staff were 13 people who were employed

 8     by us and getting a salary and were needed to have a running mission.

 9     So, for example, a cook or a driver or a translator.  Then the second

10     category of national staff was the Ministry of Health's staff.  I don't

11     remember the exact figure, more than hundred medical staff employed by

12     the Ministry of Health, who did work with us together and who got some

13     incentive like hygienic products or some similar things like this.  They

14     did not get a salary from us because they were not MSF staff.  That's a

15     difference for us.  They were supposed to receive their salary from the

16     Bosnian Ministry of Health.

17        Q.   In the Srebrenica hospital, how many people of the medical staff

18     had higher education; in other words, who were doctors, surgeons, war

19     surgeons, and so on?  What was the professional expertise of the staff

20     there?

21        A.   I -- there were five medical doctors, amongst them one surgeon,

22     Ilijaz Pilav, but I do not know the level of education because Ilijaz,

23     for example, who was the key person in the hospital, had learned most of

24     his techniques, his surgical techniques, by working together with the

25     international surgeons of MSF.  So I don't know what degree of

Page 962

 1     specialised education he had, but certainly there were five doctors who

 2     were studied medical doctors.  And then there were lots of general nurses

 3     and paramedical staff and helpers and cleaners and auxiliaries.

 4        Q.   How was the hospital equipped?  What kind of equipment did they

 5     have?

 6        A.   What would you mean?  Are you speaking about beds?  Are you

 7     speaking about an X-ray?  Are you speaking about the ICU?  We didn't have

 8     breathing machines.  There was one area which was called "ICU" but

 9     certainly not as equipped as an ICU here or, for example, in DutchBat.

10        Q.   Well, compared to the hospitals that you've been to throughout

11     your career since 1989, visiting various crisis areas throughout the

12     world, where would you place this hospital in terms of their

13     technological equipment and also medical supplies and medicines?

14        A.   I would place the hospital on more or less the same level in any

15     other war area, like Somalia or Chechnya, where I have been working in

16     the hospital in Chechnya even in the OT.  So there wasn't much equipment

17     and often it had to be improvised.  In terms of medical supplies, it was

18     MSF supplying the hospital with the basics --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber wonders relevance of these

20     matters.  So could you -- if it is relevant - I'm not saying it's

21     not - could you please come to your point as quickly as possible so that

22     we also understand what the relevance is.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm done.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And what is the probative value of knowing

25     comparison with other war hospitals, where we have got no knowledge about

Page 963

 1     so we can't even verify that?  Would you please focus, first of all, on

 2     the most relevant issues because spontaneously all three Judges raised

 3     that same question.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I shall accept your

 5     suggestion.

 6        Q.   At the meetings that you speak about in paragraph 13, in addition

 7     to the members of the UNHCR, ICRC, UNPROFOR, et cetera - these meetings

 8     were held at the post office - did you see any representatives of the

 9     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, the 28th Division?

10        A.   I never saw any representative in one of these meetings.

11        Q.   Also you said that during the first few days of your stay in

12     Srebrenica - that is paragraph 14 - you said it was relatively calm but

13     you had the feeling that the town was an open-air prison.  What did you

14     mean by that?

15        A.   It meant to me that I felt that there was no freedom of movement.

16     The population had to stay in Srebrenica.  It was an enclave.  People

17     were not allowed simply to travel to Sarajevo.  And I remember that the

18     nearby enclave Zepa, our medical doctor carried secretly an examination

19     table there, but they had to do that very secretly because they were not

20     allowed to leave the enclave.

21        Q.   Do you know that these two enclaves were separated, and according

22     to the demilitarisation agreement no communication was allowed between

23     the two enclaves?

24        A.   I knew that these were two separate enclaves.

25        Q.   Did you know that these enclaves were supposed to be

Page 964

 1     demilitarised?

 2        A.   Yes, I did know that.

 3        Q.   Did you know whether they had indeed been demilitarised?

 4        A.   I certainly don't know anything about Zepa.  In Srebrenica, first

 5     of all, I'm not completely clear about the definition of

 6     "demilitarisation" and -- so that's the first point.  The second point,

 7     of course, I can imagine something about the definition.  I did not know,

 8     not until the last day, how many weapons there were in the enclave, how

 9     many soldiers, how many fighters.  That was all beyond my knowledge.

10        Q.   Further on in paragraph 16 you say that the local authorities and

11     the UNHCR informed you that there was a food shortage in the enclave and

12     that people were starving.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

14     65 ter 25214.

15        Q.   Please take a look at this, paragraph 1.  Have you had a look?

16        A.   Yes, I did, and that's probably --

17        Q.   I have to say that this document dates back to four days before

18     you arrived there, but will you agree with me that this convoy includes

19     food supplies and also other supplies that were meant for keeping the

20     hygiene of the population --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, if the witness knows anything about

22     these convoys, we can ask her whether she has any -- if you want her to

23     confirm that 6 tonnes of salt, 11 tonnes of beans, that that's food, then

24     the Chamber -- the Judges of the Chamber can read and it's obvious that

25     powdered milk, beans, biscuits, that that's food.  So there's no need to

Page 965

 1     ask the witness unless she has any personal knowledge about it, but to

 2     ask her to explain to us whether this document is about food is -- well,

 3     is - to say the least - superfluous, if not worse.  Please proceed.

 4             Do you have any personal knowledge about these convoys,

 5     Ms. Schmitz?

 6             THE WITNESS:  My knowledge is that on 27 of June one convoy of

 7     UNHCR with food did arrive in Srebrenica.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and whether that's the same as described here

 9     you wouldn't know?

10             THE WITNESS:  No, I wouldn't know that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you proceed, may I ask, Mr. Petrusic, you

13     said in page 42, lines 21 and 22, this document dates back to four days

14     before you arrived there.  I see the date of this document is 20th of

15     June, 1995.  The witness testified that she arrived on the 6th of June.

16     Please clarify that.

17             Ms. Schmitz.

18             THE WITNESS:  Well, I arrived on 6th of June in Belgrade.  I

19     arrived 24 June in Srebrenica only --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS:  -- because negotiations took that much time.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This is a very good clarification.

23             Mr. Petrusic.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now that we're on the topic of humanitarian aid, do you know that

Page 966

 1     this humanitarian aid that arrived through the UNHCR had been abused?  Do

 2     you have any knowledge about that?

 3        A.   If it has been abused?

 4        Q.   Had there been any abuse as far as the distribution of

 5     humanitarian aid was concerned?  I mean, I seem to be leading now, but

 6     I'm saying:  Was all of this aid sent to the civilian population or was

 7     some of it given to the military?  Did you have any knowledge about that?

 8        A.   No, not at all.  I believe UNHCR is in a much better position to

 9     explain.  We did not monitor the distribution, which we sometimes do in

10     other countries, but here we did not.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court

12     65 ter 1D00076.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document under this number is not available in

14     e-court.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 04638611 is the ERN number, so can

16     you find it that way?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can barely hear the

18     speaker, Mr. Petrusic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the interpreters have difficulties in

20     hearing you, so could you please speak perhaps a bit more loudly.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The document is 04638611.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for that, Mr. Petrusic, 25214, the

23     document we looked at a minute ago, do you intend to tender that?  If so,

24     we could deal with it right away.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I thought I'd do it at the end,

Page 967

 1     but I will accept that if you think it should be tendered now, then I am

 2     going to tender it now.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Petrusic please

 4     speak into the microphone.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you are again invited to speak into the

 6     microphone, Mr. Petrusic, by the interpreters.

 7             Madam Registrar, 25214 -- no objections, Mr. McCloskey?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D11, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D11 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, please, did you know that this convoy had arrived in

15     Srebrenica on the 4th of July, 1995?

16        A.   No.  I would have to check again -- actually, I'm sure there was

17     a convoy 27th June and there was a convoy arriving 13th July when all the

18     population was gone.  4th July I do not remember at all, but I'm happy to

19     check once more.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, is this a different convoy or is it

21     the same?

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a different convoy, the

23     4th of July.  The previous one was on the 28th of June.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So this convoy now refers to the one on the

25     screen.

Page 968

 1             Put your next question to the witness, please.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness answered

 3     this.

 4        Q.   So did you know that this convoy had arrived?

 5        A.   No.  Did the convoy arrive in Srebrenica on the 4th?  Because I

 6     should have known and I know only about the one on the 27th and on the

 7     13th.  The NGO community in Srebrenica was very small, so the UNHCR

 8     representative was living in our house.  Therefore, I would be very

 9     surprised if the convoy did arrive and I didn't know.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I shall tender this document.  The

11     number is ...

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 1D00076.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, do I understand since the witness says

16     she doesn't know anything about this, that you asked about the convoy

17     arriving.  May I then take it that you want to bar table this document?

18     Is that how we have to understand you tendering it?

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] All right.  The Defence will

20     tender it that way.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could I ask you the following.  In your

22     questions you suggested that it arrived in Srebrenica, this convoy.

23     Apparently you are seeking to establish that.  I tried to go through the

24     document very quickly.  What I see -- it seems to be a report by an

25     infantry brigade on the 4th of July, the Zvornik Infantry Brigade - I do

Page 969

 1     not know from where they report this - but it's a report on passage of

 2     teams and convoys.  Do we know exactly from where this report was sent, I

 3     mean passage where exactly?  Is there anything in the report that

 4     clarifies?

 5             I mean, if I travel from Germany to Spain, I pass through

 6     Luxembourg and France perhaps.  It doesn't mean that I arrive in Spain,

 7     so therefore that was suggested in your question and therefore I'm

 8     wondering what exactly you think the Judges could read from this

 9     document?  And I would not have asked -- I would not have asked if you

10     would not have put the question to the witness whether she was aware that

11     this arrived in Srebrenica on the 4th of July.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a convoy, or rather, this

13     is a report of the Zvornik Brigade.  The Zvornik Brigade at the border

14     between Serbia and Republika Srpska in a place called Karakaj had a

15     check-point, and through this check-point they allowed all convoys

16     through, those that were going to the enclaves, that is to say.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now could I just -- I'm trying to refresh my

18     own topographical memory.  Karakaj is north of Zvornik; is that well

19     understood?

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Karakaj is a suburb of Zvornik and

21     it is to the west of Zvornik.  You enter Zvornik going through Karakaj.

22     As soon as you cross the Drina River, as soon as you cross the border,

23     you enter Karakaj.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I -- it's not at Karakaj that you

25     enter the enclave of Srebrenica, isn't it?  That's still at a distance.

Page 970

 1             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right.  But that is

 2     where the check-point is for the convoys.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's exactly what is my -- the issue I wanted to

 4     raise.  If you want to bar table this and if there's any suggestion that

 5     crossing this check-point would mean that the convoy arrives in

 6     Srebrenica, that is not supported by your explanation or our

 7     understanding of this document.  It says that apparently at Karakaj that

 8     this convoy passed.  If that is -- I'm trying to understand the probative

 9     value you want to attach to this document.

10             Mr. McCloskey, any objections?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If Mr. Petrusic would agree that the -- after

12     Zvornik it still has to get the roughly 40 to 50 kilometres to Bratunac

13     and through Bratunac to get to the check-point into Srebrenica, I would

14     have no objection because then it would make some sense.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so there -- this -- there may be some probative

16     value that a convoy arrived in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina at a

17     certain point in time?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D0076 becomes Exhibit D12,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D12 is admitted into evidence.

23             Mr. Petrusic, this intervention may also serve the Defence to

24     understand that this Chamber is not interested in receiving piles of

25     paper but is primarily interested in if it receives any paperwork to

Page 971

 1     understand what it actually says, and perhaps you could have

 2     spontaneously drawn our attention to the relevance and probative value of

 3     this document.  You may proceed.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one of the

 5     paragraphs in the indictment refers specifically to preventing

 6     humanitarian aid from reaching the enclaves, so my intention is aimed in

 7     that direction.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That was clear, but you suggested in your question

 9     to the witness that this arrived on the 4th of July, whereas the

10     document -- it may well have arrived, I do not know.  But the document is

11     not about arrival in Srebrenica.  The document is about passing a

12     check-point at certainly a considerable distance still from Srebrenica.

13     Please proceed.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In your first report which regrettably doesn't have a legible

16     date, and this is a document that the Prosecutor had put to you, you say

17     that the shelling started and went on for 45 minutes.  Do you remember

18     that?  That's what you said.

19        A.   Yes, and I'm a hundred per cent sure that the date is the 6th of

20     July.

21        Q.   Do you know that this attack came from the south of the enclave;

22     that is to say, beyond the boundaries of the enclave itself?

23        A.   No, I don't know the exact location the attack came from.

24        Q.   Do you know that it was aimed at the military positions of the

25     28th Division?

Page 972

 1        A.   No, I don't know.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have document

 3     65 ter 19814, page 4.

 4        Q.   In this report that you were sending to Lieutenant Boering in the

 5     Dutch Battalion, you are asking for technical assistance and you are not

 6     referring to shelling at all.

 7        A.   Is this a question or this is -- it's a fact --

 8        Q.   You do not refer to the shelling at all?

 9        A.   No, because in that moment I did need technical assistance by

10     moving the CAPSAT down to the base -- down to the bunker, and for me it

11     was safe understanding that it was because of the shelling.  So in that

12     moment I did not want to draw attention of Mr. Boering on the shelling,

13     but that we need help, technical assistance, because we didn't have a

14     logistician.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you are on your feet.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we don't -- we didn't have the English up so

17     I don't know what she was able to see, but I'm hoping this is now up.

18     Yes, this does appear to be closer to the Serbian.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What we have on the screen is not what the witness

20     has just been talking about.  It's something new now.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the previous one was a short request for

22     technical assistance.  I don't know why that disappeared from our screen

23     when we were still discussing it.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not sure which she was looking for, but the

25     Serbian was clearly a different document and I don't know if she could

Page 973

 1     read that tiny print to know that she was talking about it or not.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we go back to the document we had on our

 3     screen a minute ago, that is a short document in which Ms. Schmitz

 4     requests Mr. Boering to provide -- to provide --

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It's page 4.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have it back on our screen.  The last thing

 7     I think Ms. Schmitz was asking is whether -- a question was put to her

 8     and she explained that she felt no need to explain that shelling may have

 9     caused this request for technical assistance.

10             By the way, it is the same document used by the -- it's page 4

11     and it is in English and let me just check ... and there is a B/C/S

12     translation in e-court, so ...

13             Yes, but that's the wrong one.  It's -- it is for the B/C/S.  It

14     is page 1 out of 19, apparently.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I am told we do not have a B/C/S

16     for that.  We did not translate all of these, only the ones that -- well,

17     mostly the ones I used.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's then -- then we have no -- we only have

19     an English version, because I see that the 75 pages in translation cover

20     only 19 pages, so that's a very selective translation.

21             Mr. Petrusic, if for the time being you can work with the English

22     version only, we would not stop you, but a B/C/S translation of course

23     should be prepared before we finally admit this document if you want to

24     tender it.  But let's now go back to where we were, and that is what

25     question are you asking further in relation to this document from the

Page 974

 1     witness?

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] When sending this telegram, did

 3     Ms. Schmitz have any other contact, either by phone or any other way,

 4     with captain, or rather, Lieutenant Boering to do with the military

 5     situation and the situation on the ground?

 6        A.   Well, the contact with the UNPROFOR, not necessarily Mr. Boering,

 7     did take place every day in person because we had a security meeting at

 8     10.00.  So when I wrote this Telex I considered, of course, Mr. Boering

 9     as well informed as I was about the security situation.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to page 11 of

11     this document 19814, page 11, please.

12             In the third paragraph, beginning with the words "UNHCR," it

13     reads:

14             "UNHCR asked ..."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We do have B/C/S on page 4.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We have B/C/S.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The UNHCR asked the president

19     whether they should send the request for evacuation on the population and

20     he answered that it was not necessary as yet, and there were rumours

21     going around that villages were getting burnt down.

22        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, could you tell us what president you're referring to

23     in this Telex message?

24        A.   That was the president -- well, I do not recall anymore the exact

25     terms of positions.  There was a president in Srebrenica, then there was

Page 975

 1     the mayor, so it was one of the key authorities in Srebrenica.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, could we move up the B/C/S

 3     version which is now presented to us as the translation of the document.

 4     In the English the -- it starts with:

 5             "OUT.958, page 1."

 6             In the B/C/S it starts with:

 7             "OUT.526 ..."

 8             There seems to be some similarity, but it certainly is not a

 9     literal translation of the original.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think it's a -- just a typo of the number.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a typo of the number.  Then if that's the only

12     thing, then I'm -- that should be corrected, and that's apparently then

13     what it is.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to -- may I just interrupt.  Maybe we

17     might get an explanation here, too.

18             Madam Schmitz, I just want to find out from you whether this

19     document was written by you.  I see the name, if this is the name, of

20     person at the bottom is "Xtina."  Is that you?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's mine.  So the Telex has been written by

22     me.  My real name is Christine, my nickname was Christina, and sometimes

23     you can shorten it by "Xtina."

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 976

 1        Q.   The president, whether he was the president of the municipality

 2     or the chief of the municipality, did he have the authority, the powers,

 3     to decide on the evacuation of the population?

 4        A.   I don't know if I can answer that question because would he have

 5     the power or wouldn't -- would it be the population itself who would need

 6     to decide if they want to be evacuated or not?  That depends on the way

 7     of deciding within a community.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any specific knowledge on

 9     competence of these matters of evacuation?

10             THE WITNESS:  No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's move on, Mr. Petrusic.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   But at that point in time on the 9th of July around 1900 hours

14     when the enclave still existed, were people thinking about evacuating the

15     population according to your report?

16        A.   I do not recall any discussion about seriously evacuating the

17     population because nobody also really knew what was going to happen and

18     who should have done that?  But then I'm of course not aware about all

19     negotiations who went on.

20        Q.   Who did you get this information from?

21        A.   Again, I do not recall exactly, but since I do rely on my

22     documents and if I say it was UNHCR, then it was the national

23     representative called Elmir, and he must have told me because we

24     exchanged a lot of information.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 33 of the same

Page 977

 1     document, please.  I believe we don't have a translation for this either.

 2        Q.   Madam, you are talking to Franken here, the deputy commander of

 3     the DutchBat; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Where you say that the objective is taking the medical stock,

 6     checking for the 97 patients of the social centre, and picking up more

 7     people who couldn't leave today.  We find those words in paragraph 2.

 8     Could you tell us what this is a reference to?

 9        A.   Well, given that the UNPROFOR was still in a combat situation and

10     couldn't provide us with as much drugs and medical material we actually

11     needed for the patients, he had proposed that I would go back into

12     Srebrenica with the objectives you have note -- you have listed -- you

13     have quoted, taking medical stock, checking for the 97 patients, and so

14     on.  So it did not materialise until the 13th of July, when I went back

15     into Srebrenica.

16        Q.   Where were you at the time?

17        A.   At which time?

18        Q.   Well, on the 11th of July at 2255 hours?

19        A.   I was at Potocari, the UN base.

20        Q.   And you sent this Telex via some other CAPSAT; correct?

21        A.   Yes, I did.  We did not install our CAPSAT in Potocari, but we

22     used the one of the UNMOs.

23        Q.   You go on to say Commander Mladic is in Bratunac, he's offering

24     food and medicine, and he's asking the UN to organise buses for

25     evacuation.  Who did you get this information from?

Page 978

 1        A.   It was from Deputy Commander Robert Franken.

 2        Q.   Did Mr. Franken also convey to you that perhaps an hour earlier a

 3     meeting had ended between General Mladic and Colonel Karremans and his

 4     two aides?

 5        A.   No, I did not know at this time about this meeting.

 6        Q.   Did you receive any information about the deputy commander,

 7     Mr. Franken, having any direct contacts with Mr. Mladic, and where did he

 8     get this information from?

 9        A.   Oh, I did not check that with him and I didn't know his relation

10     with General Mladic.  If there was a direct contact or if it was through

11     the liaison person of UN, I do not know.

12        Q.   Further down in your report, the next line starts with the word

13     "UNPROFOR" and then it says:

14             "Water:  7.000 litres per day available, less than a litre per

15     person per day for the people ... inside."

16             Tell me, please, who provided this water, these 7.000 litres of

17     water?

18        A.   That was provided by UNPROFOR to the displaced who were inside

19     the UN building.

20        Q.   And do you know that at Potocari where the refugees were, the

21     Muslim refugees, that Potocari had a water-supply system?  There was a

22     town water-supply system?

23        A.   Yes, I knew that but there was some rumour that the plant was not

24     functioning, but that I would have to check again in the documents.  On

25     top of my head, I don't remember the exact details; however, the

Page 979

 1     displaced outside did not have on that day access to water except what

 2     they had brought with them which was very little.

 3        Q.   You say that you received some medicines.  Could you tell us who

 4     you got this small amount of medicines from?

 5        A.   Well, I'm mentioning the name of Jan, he was the head of the old

 6     medical team.  There was the two medical -- the new medical team of UN

 7     had just arrived before the bombing started, so there were two teams at

 8     the time.  We had very good contact with Jan, so he basically smuggled

 9     some small amount he could spare to Daniel in makeshift hospital.

10        Q.   Did you know that through the International Red Cross and the

11     UNHCR, medicines were being brought into Srebrenica, area of Srebrenica?

12        A.   Could you please specify the time and the recipients?

13        Q.   Well, the time is from the 8th of May, 1993, when the safe -- the

14     area was established and the convoys organised up until the time we're

15     discussing here.  The UNHCR convoys and convoys of the

16     International Red Cross provided the necessary medicines for the

17     Srebrenica hospital -- well, we don't have to talk about the UNHCR and

18     the provisions they provided for the civilians, but did you have this

19     information?

20        A.   No.  I mean, I should have had it because we were the ones

21     supplying the hospital and MSF has very close contact with ICRC wherever

22     we work together.  So if they did provide medical material and drugs to

23     the hospital recently - speaking about this period - I would have known.

24     So I find that difficult to believe.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  At least you had no knowledge.

Page 980

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   We have before us document 65 ter 1980 -- 1814, page 35.  So it's

 4     the 12th of July, 1995, it is 10.21, another telegram sent by you, and I

 5     assume that it was sent to Belgrade again; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   You explain the situation and you say:  I don't see any

 8     dehydrated children, there are no cases of diarrhea.  Apparently no one

 9     was struck by a shell.  There were no wounded coming in.  My question:

10     When you say apparently no one was hit by a shell -- my question is, was

11     there any shelling going on?

12        A.   Not on the 12th anymore.

13        Q.   You also say no wounded were coming in.  Where were you supposed

14     to receive these wounded?  Where would you accommodate them?

15        A.   There was a makeshift hospital in a corridor in the factory the

16     UN was based in, and there we were able to admit patients coming in.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, may I take you back to your last

18     question.  You said to the witness:  You explain the situation and you

19     say:  I don't see any dehydrated children, there are no cases of

20     diarrhea.  Apparently no one was struck by a shell.  That is your

21     observation.  That is not in the report.  Is that correctly understood?

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, maybe I'm not getting the

23     right translation or interpretation, but I believe it is correct.  It

24     should be -- you should find that -- well, it begins with the word:  "The

25     situation outside."

Page 981

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now I see the "dehydrated children."  I see "no

 2     diarrhea."  But I do not see anything about --

 3             THE WITNESS:  It's the sentence afterwards.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look -- oh, yes, it seems I --

 5     yes.  It seems then apparently -- yes.  Now it's -- it's clear to me now.

 6             Yes, it's clear to me.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, could the record reflect also.

 8     Correctly, it says "I cannot see severe dehydrated children."  I think

 9     that's a significant different meaning than the quote we have.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is -- I take it, Mr. Petrusic, you would

11     agree that that's what the document says.

12             You may proceed.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Then you describe the situation inside and you are addressing

15     your staff in Belgrade and asking them:  Tell me again what information

16     you want more and I can try to do my best to inform you.  Did your staff,

17     the headquarters in Belgrade, did they actually pose some questions to

18     you and wanted some answers to be provided by you, or did you just report

19     on all of the events in those days?

20        A.   No, it was not a one-way communication.  I did respond -- I did

21     receive regular answers on my Telexes with comments and questions and

22     advice, but we don't -- Mr. McCloskey showed one this morning, but I --

23     we don't have them all here because I didn't rescue them all.  It wasn't

24     a one-way communication.  But here I wanted to signal I have strength

25     enough to get more information for you if you need, because Belgrade then

Page 982

 1     send it further to Belgium and Paris and they used the information, for

 2     example, for a press release.

 3        Q.   You also say that there is no information - and that's two lines

 4     below - there is no information on possibly wounded persons.  Is this a

 5     reference to the civilians in the compound?

 6        A.   It's both.  It's the population in the compound and the displaced

 7     population outside of the compound.

 8        Q.   And at the end it is -- you say:  It is my impression that the UN

 9     is trying to leave, and indeed you also indicate here that this is only

10     your feeling.  Now, were there any other indications other than your

11     sense of it that the UN was trying to leave?

12        A.   No, it was definitely my feeling.  In the contact with some

13     soldiers, I felt people wanted to leave this place, which was probably

14     true as well, but I did not see them packing up or whatever.  The UN

15     would have decided, probably Franken would have informed me about such a

16     crucial decision.  However maybe one example comes to my mind:  When the

17     two UNMOs left Srebrenica to Potocari during the days of bombing, they

18     didn't inform us, so we were a bit surprised about that.

19        Q.   Let us briefly go back to the 10th of July, document 19814,

20     page 23.  In the third paragraph beginning with the words "the hospital,"

21     can you see that?

22        A.   Sure.

23        Q.   It says:

24             "The hospital was full with armed soldiers and we don't manage to

25     get them out ...  I remember Chechnya - at this stage they won't leave."

Page 983

 1             Tell me, please, how is it that armed soldiers were in the

 2     hospital?

 3        A.   Well, they did bring their wounded colleagues, some were wounded

 4     themselves, and they wanted to stay with them.  That was the reason why

 5     they were in the hospital.  I asked several times that they would leave

 6     because the hospital was supposed to be a neutral zone and no uniforms

 7     and no arms are supposed to be inside, but it didn't have much effect.

 8     And I experienced exactly the same just a few months before in Chechnya,

 9     therefore I was mentioning it.

10        Q.   Can you tell us how many armed soldiers there were in the

11     hospital?

12        A.   No, I cannot.  I definitely cannot.  I have no idea.

13        Q.   What do you mean by "a lot"?  More than a hundred?  Less than a

14     hundred?  More than 50?  Less than 50?

15        A.   I would rather say maybe 20.  For me already one soldier with an

16     arm in a hospital is a big problem, so 20 is really a lot.

17        Q.   Why was that a problem for you?  Were you afraid that the

18     hospital would become a target because of the armed members of the

19     BH Army?

20        A.   Exactly, that was my fear.

21        Q.   The same document but page 38, please.  The time is the 12th of

22     July, 1630 hours, and you're asking Stefan whether:

23             "UNPROFOR is asking if MSF plus UNMO can go back into Srebrenica

24     to pick up the rest of the patients in the hospital (6) and the social

25     centre (10 - 20).  What is your opinion?"

Page 984

 1             Madam?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I thought you were still reading.  I'm sorry, again

 3     what is the question?  Because "what is your opinion," that is written in

 4     the Telex and my question was post to my head of mission.

 5        Q.   Allow me to finish.  I quoted from the document and now I started

 6     putting a question to you.  Madam, which six patients are they?  Were

 7     these military patients - if we can call them that?  Were they civilian

 8     patients, the rest of the patients from the hospital?

 9        A.   Well, I did go back to the hospital on the 13th of July in the

10     afternoon and then I found three elderly --

11        Q.   Madam, I do apologise for interrupting.  You will have an

12     opportunity of answering about the 13th, but I am interested in the 12th

13     of July and this Telex.  I really do apologise for interrupting you, but

14     did you know then who these patients were?

15        A.   I did know that on the 11th of July we left behind a few elderly

16     patients.  I wasn't aware that there were six and I wasn't aware of any

17     young men, soldiers, or whatever who were left behind.

18        Q.   Can we therefore conclude that these were elderly civilians

19     conditionally speaking?

20        A.   Possibly.  Here the information does come from UNPROFOR and maybe

21     UNPROFOR did have a different information than what I have, but I suppose

22     these were elderly patients.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Page 40, please, of this same

24     document.

25        Q.   After exchanging greetings with Stefan in the first sentence, you

Page 985

 1     say:

 2             "UN starting with the evacuation of the wounded with trucks to

 3     Tuzla."

 4             Tell me, is this your direct knowledge or did you receive this

 5     information from someone else?

 6        A.   That information I got from my colleague, Daniel, who was mainly

 7     occupied with the care of the patients.

 8        Q.   So this information that follows, namely how they would be

 9     transported, that is something you also heard from your colleague; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Towards the very end of this dispatch -- this telegram, rather,

12     you mention deportation, as you call it, for the very first time.  You

13     say:

14             "One-quarter of the refugees outside have been deported to

15     Kladanj ..."

16             Who did you receive this information from?

17        A.   That was my judgement from seeing the situation outside.  I had

18     assessed approximately 20.000 in the evening of the 11th of July, and so

19     I judged that approximately one-quarter were not there anymore.

20        Q.   During your testimony you've been using the term "deportation."

21     This is almost exclusively a legal term I should say.  You have no legal

22     training; you're not a lawyer yourself.  Can you tell us why it is that

23     you use this term, this notion?

24        A.   From my understanding - although I'm not a legal person -

25     "deportation" is the evacuation under force.  So therefore I used

Page 986

 1     "deportation."

 2        Q.   Are you aware of the content there, since you said that this

 3     involves the use of force?  Do you know the meeting that was held on the

 4     evening of the 11th of July around 10.00 p.m. between General Mladic and

 5     the commander of the Dutch Battalion, Karremans?

 6        A.   You did ask me before.  No, I was not aware about this meeting.

 7     I heard it last time in March when I was here testifying, but I wasn't

 8     aware then about that meeting and the outcome.

 9        Q.   And when you testified in March, did you hear that

10     Colonel Karremans had suggested that the refugee issue be resolved that

11     way?  The decision was made in accordance with what his superiors also

12     had to say that the refugees, the refugee population, leave the enclave?

13        A.   No, I didn't know and I didn't hear it then either.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, if you refer to an earlier testimony

15     and then asked what the witness heard there, what you're interested in is

16     what the witness knows and what the witness observed, nothing else.

17               And in that respect, I would like to ask you one question in

18     relation to this document.  You said one-quarter of the refugees outside

19     have been deported and you explained to us what you understand when you

20     use the word "deportation."  At the same time you told us that you had

21     observed 20.000 people being there and one-quarter not being there

22     anymore.  Did you personally observe under what circumstances they left?

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did.  I did -- I mean, most of my time in

24     the day -- or I don't even know, maybe 60 per cent of the time I spent

25     outside the UN compound and I checked for patients and I observed the

Page 987

 1     situation.  And so I did observe that people were being put on buses,

 2     trucks, and it is true that people wanted to leave.  So that sounds like

 3     a contradiction but it wasn't a contradiction because in the first place

 4     people were in a situation they had been forced into, and of course they

 5     wanted to leave Potocari but they had not wanted to leave Srebrenica.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What force did you see to be exercised upon

 7     those who were boarding the buses?

 8             THE WITNESS:  I did not see physical force.  There were chains of

 9     BSA soldiers along the buses where the people had to walk along and they

10     were being shown in which bus to get in.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic, although I would like to take a

13     break within the next couple of minutes.  So if you find a suitable

14     moment, either here or after one or more questions, please let us know.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly.  Let me finish with

16     this document.

17        Q.   Now that you mentioned that there were chains there, are you

18     referring to physical barriers?  I don't really understand this.  What

19     were these chains all about?

20        A.   If I speak about chains here, then I mean a human chain, that

21     soldiers were standing there and the displaced walked along them into the

22     buses.

23        Q.   At the end of this document you say:

24             "35 men were being guarded in one house and treated well."

25             Did you personally have this information or, yet again, did you

Page 988

 1     receive it from your colleague or someone else?

 2        A.   No, I -- when I heard information about that house, I went to

 3     Franken and Franken said that they were being treated well, deputy

 4     commander of the UNPROFOR.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we take the

 6     break now?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just one clarification.  In the document I can

11     read they were guarded in one house.  What kind of house was it?

12             THE WITNESS:  It was a normal one-family house.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Located where?

14             THE WITNESS:  It's -- you can see it on the sketch --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, can you just describe it briefly.

16             THE WITNESS:  It's -- on the other side, then the UN factory.  On

17     the other side, a bit south.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

20     We'll have a break and we would like to see you back in half an hour.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, Mr. Petrusic, are you on track as far as

23     time is concerned?

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think so.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need after the break?

Page 989

 1     You've used until now in total it was one and a half hours since the

 2     cross-examination started, a little bit less.  Would that mean that a

 3     half an hour, a little bit over half an hour after the break would do?

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps a bit more, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  40 minutes, would that do?

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there will remain sufficient time for

 8     re-examination, if there is any need to re-examine the witness.

 9             We take a break and we'll resume at quarter to 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             Mr. Groome, would you have new information about P18?

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  I can address that, but I think

16     it may take a bit longer than the time it takes for the witness --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's rather wait until we have concluded the

18     testimony of this witness.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Could we please have 19814, page 41.

23        Q.   This is a document that you sent.  The date is the 12th of July.

24     The time is 2010 [as interpreted], and in the second sentence:

25             "Of course everybody wants to leave and Daniel feels very bad

Page 990

 1     about selecting which I did not quite understand [as interpreted]."

 2             Can you tell me, Madam, what kind of selection this is all about?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Petrusic, I have a problem.  I see a

 4     different language in the fourth line of the document.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The sentence is the second one

 6     from the beginning of the document, that is.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we found it.  Please proceed.

 8             THE WITNESS:  So may I repeat what I understood what concerns the

 9     question?  You are asking what the selection was about .

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, I think Mr. Petrusic is using a

12     translation which does not conform with the document.  In fact, it was --

13     my understanding was the opposite of what the document said.  And so as

14     she hears the question, it's a bit confusing.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know whether Mr. Petrusic is using a

16     translation.

17             First of all, is there a translation in e-court for this page?

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes -- we don't have an

19     official one.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, we heard that she -- this statement

21     said "which I do not understand," and of course the document says "I can

22     perfectly understand."  So that's what I wanted to get to the bottom of.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's read the line on which questions will be

24     put to you reads as follows:

25             "Of course everyone wants to leave and Daniel feels very bad

Page 991

 1     about selecting which I can perfectly understand."

 2             That's the line Mr. Petrusic is addressing.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, obviously my mistake.  I

 5     apologise to the witness and to the Trial Chamber.

 6        Q.   Madam, can you tell me what kind of selection this was?  The time

 7     is 2110.

 8        A.   I have it in front of me.  It was basically selecting the

 9     patients who were supposed to go with the first medical convoy out of

10     Srebrenica.  So not all of the patients were able to go due to space, and

11     so difficult to say:  You can go and you cannot go.  That was like -- I

12     understand Daniel that that was very difficult for him.

13        Q.   Who was it who carried out this selection, the medical staff?

14        A.   It was Daniel as a medical doctor.

15        Q.   Further on in the next paragraph you say that you briefly spoke

16     to Mladic and you say that you requested that you could pick up the sick

17     and you say he agreed.  This report of yours, does it correspond to the

18     actual situation as it was on the 12th of July?

19        A.   Yes, it does.

20        Q.   Further on you say:

21             "BSA is shooting in the air."

22             Do you know what the reasons were for the BSA to be shooting in

23     the air?

24        A.   No, I don't know the reason.

25        Q.   Would you agree with me if I were to say to you that that is the

Page 992

 1     way in which people celebrate victories in that part of the world?  Also

 2     on the occasion of religious holidays as well there is this kind of

 3     gun-fire, and that is precisely the 12th of July.  Among the Serb people

 4     this is one of the major religious holidays.  It's called

 5     St. Peter's Day.  Would you agree with me --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

 7     sentence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreter did not hear the end of your

 9     sentence, Mr. Petrusic.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Would you agree with me that that is why people opened gun-fire,

12     and on that day it was a religious holiday, St. Peter's Day?

13        A.   Well, I would not agree with you on the point that that was the

14     reason for the shooting because I just didn't know and I wasn't also

15     aware that there was a religious holiday on that day.  So I don't know

16     the reason for shooting into the air.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, the witness is not here to be taught

18     about what may be possible explanations of what she observed.  The

19     witness is here to tell us what she observed.  If a witness says, when

20     asked, I don't know the reasons why, then we move on even if you might

21     have in the back of your mind an explanation for that.  And you can raise

22     that matter with another witness who might be more knowledgeable about

23     it.  You can raise the matter in oral argument at a later stage, but it's

24     of no use then to explain to the witness what the possible explanation is

25     and then ask the witness whether the witness agrees.  That is not the way

Page 993

 1     of proceeding.  Therefore, put your next question to the witness, please.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Further on you say in your report that there are two water trucks

 4     from Bratunac, and if the translation is right you say that people have

 5     enough clean water and you say that there are no queues.  Did you observe

 6     that personally --

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   -- or did you hear about that from someone?

 9        A.   I apologise for interrupting.  Yes, I did observe that myself and

10     I tried the water myself.

11        Q.   Did you see for yourself that there was enough food too?  You

12     refer to that in your next sentence.

13        A.   Yeah, I observed myself that people had brought small amounts of

14     food with them, so I did not have the feeling on the spot that people

15     were starving and hungry.

16        Q.   Did you know that during that day, the 12th of July, food aid had

17     started arriving from Bratunac, primarily bread and so on and so forth?

18     Did you know about this, just that?

19        A.   I knew that some food had arrived, but I didn't know the

20     quantities and I didn't know how it was being distributed to whom.

21        Q.   When you say further on that there are a few nurses from Bratunac

22     outside, are these nurses from the hospital in Bratunac?

23        A.   I don't know.  And I personally did not speak to any of them nor

24     they spoke to me.

25        Q.   Do you know what it was that they were doing there?

Page 994

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Page 42 on the same document, please.  This is a document of

 3     13th July.  The hour is 2100 -- at 1.52, and it says:  We moved 33

 4     patients who had to return from -- who had to come back from Bratunac,

 5     nobody knows the reason.  Now, where did you receive the news from?

 6        A.   I don't remember who woke me up, it must have been somebody from

 7     the UN, because I was sleeping.  And so I went to the makeshift hospital

 8     and received the patients and prepared some kind of bedding and so on.

 9        Q.   And you learned from Karremans and Franken personally that they,

10     and I quote:  "They are sure that the BSA cannot enter.  They are very

11     sure that none of the men was killed."  Did they tell you that?

12        A.   Yes, they did, but I have to admit that having been reading this

13     in the recent days it doesn't really make sense to me because BSA had

14     entered already the enclave.  So not quite sure why I wrote it like this.

15     I can't say.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- it may be a translation issue, but I read in

17     English the literal line:

18             "They are very sure that nobody of the men gets killed,"

19     et cetera.

20             That is what it literally says.  Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Yes.  At this time on the 13th of July you were in the Potocari

23     compound?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could we have page 43, please, the same document.

Page 995

 1             Please take a look at paragraph 1.

 2             "UNHCR convoy with 20.000 combat rations, and then 15.000 litres

 3     of water, 36.000 litres of diesel fuel ... arriving this afternoon.

 4     Mladic assured us that the convoy would be acceptable so there should be

 5     no problem at the Yellow Bridge."

 6             Tell us, please, who did you receive this information from or is

 7     this something that you learned yourself?

 8        A.   No.  As I wrote above, I'm just copying the info of UNMO.  I had

 9     seen or I was given - I don't know anymore - I had seen that information

10     from UNMO which they had sent to their superiors, and so I did copy that

11     and send it to my superiors in Belgrade.

12        Q.   You did not verify that further?  You didn't try to verify it?

13        A.   Well, the convoy did arrive.  I did not verify what exactly was

14     on it, but the convoy of UNHCR did arrive in Potocari, for sure, in that

15     afternoon.

16        Q.   Then in paragraph 2 it says:

17             "The UN medical convoy with our patients is moving towards Tuzla

18     with a special escort of BSA personnel with personal instructions from

19     Mladic personally [as interpreted]."

20             So this information, too, was conveyed and that was information

21     from UNMO?

22        A.   Yes, it's until -- I'm writing -- until I write "voila Stef,"

23     that is the whole info from the UNMO.

24        Q.   So you had reason to believe the information that you were

25     receiving from UN observers; correct?

Page 996

 1        A.   Well, if you go further down then I'm writing:

 2             "This is UNMO saying and sending out.

 3             "Maybe the figure of the refugees still here is a bit high."

 4             But then I'm not referring anymore to that Telex.

 5        Q.   Yes, and then in paragraph 4 you also refer to this source, the

 6     same source, the UNMO.  And you say that he, Mladic, also asked the

 7     UNPROFOR commander to contact the BiH and inform them that it was not the

 8     intention of the General to kill anymore soldiers, BH soldiers.  They

 9     only have to surrender and hand their weapons in.  Do you know that this

10     was a position that was also stated at one of the meetings, the second

11     meeting, between representatives of -- with the representatives of the

12     DutchBat and civilians in Bratunac?

13        A.   No, no, I don't know that.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to page 55, please.  When you say:

15             "Andrei in Bratunac wants to evacuate patients by helicopter to

16     Sarajevo.  He needs an extensive list with all data which will take more

17     than two hours to compile."

18             Now, tell me, who can decide on the evacuation of patients?

19        A.   Well, I think the decision -- the different decisions which were

20     being taken in these different days were co-ordinated among the different

21     NGOs, among the different UNPROFOR members.  I don't know exactly who all

22     were involved.  At a certain time I believe there were seven institutions

23     who had wanted to evacuate the patients.  So if you refer to this

24     paragraph and if you ask me if Andrei was in the position to decide to

25     evacuate the patients by helicopter to Sarajevo, I just don't know.

Page 997

 1        Q.   Then you say:

 2             "Franken just informed me that among the wounded in Bratunac

 3     there are several BH soldiers with a good record from the past."

 4             Did Mr. Franken explain to you what kind of records these were,

 5     past records, of the BH soldiers?

 6        A.   No, he did not otherwise I would have noted it down.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Schmitz, may I ask you, a quote was read to you

 8     but in English there was more than what you did write down.  The report

 9     says:

10             "He needs an extensive list with all data which will take more

11     than two hours."

12             Did you intend to write that it would take more than two hours to

13     compile such a list or was it a reference to anything else that would

14     take more than two hours?

15             THE WITNESS:  Well, in fact I do not remember anymore if -- or

16     let me say differently:  I do not remember anymore - and I think it was

17     not that he wanted to evacuate the patients in Potocari, but the ones in

18     Bratunac.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But my question was about the two hours, what would

20     take two hours, to compile the list or anything else?

21             THE WITNESS:  To compile the list.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because that's not in the English version but

23     we do understand now --

24             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that that's what you intended to write.

Page 998

 1             No need to apologise.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have one additional question.  Can you tell me

 3     who is Andrei?

 4             THE WITNESS:  He was the anesthetist of the UNPROFOR.  There was

 5     also an UNMO called Andrei, but this very Andrei was the anesthetist from

 6     UNPROFOR.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Franken also told you that Mladic was not there, or rather, that

10     he would not come until the problem is resolved.

11        A.   I'm sorry.  What is the question?

12        Q.   Did Franken relate this to you?

13        A.   Yes, he did.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter 04469,

15     please.

16        Q.   In paragraph 1 of this document in the third line it says --

17     actually, the third sentence:

18             "The wounded had to be checked before they would be transported.

19     UNMOs and an ICRC representative should be present during the check and

20     they were.  The check was very polite and nothing that could scare the

21     refugees happened.  The BSA officers," that's the Army of Bosnian Serbs,

22     "even left their weapons behind during this check."

23             Madam, we don't see your name appearing in this document, so let

24     me ask you:  Did -- are you the one who drafted this document?

25        A.   For sure not.  I don't even know and I cannot see immediately who

Page 999

 1     did.

 2        Q.   It is signed with "Team A," dated the 17th of July, so I would

 3     like to know:  Do you know what that is a reference to?  Who is team A?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could she be given a chance to see the whole

 6     document.  We only have part on the screen and maybe it will help her

 7     figure it out.  If we see it says "sitrep" at the top.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and perhaps also page 2 of the document which

 9     gives the reference too.

10             THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't know hundred per cent.  I can only

11     imagine that it was from DutchBat, and I did not know the division of the

12     different teams, so whatever the A team means, I don't know.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   But are you aware, did you know about this situation with the

15     wounded, as described in this document?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, then you should give the witness an

17     opportunity to read what is on the document and -- of course we ask

18     ourselves -- we'd like to know what the witness can tell us, whether that

19     fully corresponds with this document, yes or no, may not be -- well, it

20     may be relevant, it may be irrelevant, but at least then we also could

21     compare the content.  Are you exclusively dealing with paragraph 1 of the

22     document, where you are seeking an answer of the witness?

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am going to be dealing with the

24     entire document, but at this point I'm just asking about paragraph 1.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we first give an opportunity to the witness to

Page 1000

 1     read the first paragraph.

 2             Would you please, Ms. Schmitz, read paragraph 1 starting with:

 3             "This morning the UNMO team and DCO of DutchBat ..."

 4             Can you read it or?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I can.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please tell us when you are finished.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I'm [indiscernible] reading.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now please formulate a precise question,

 9     Mr. Petrusic, because the first paragraph, of course, does not only deal

10     with the patients.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Well, I'm just interested in the situation with the patients.

13     Are you aware -- did you know of this, where it said the wounded had to

14     be checked before they would be transported and the portion ending with

15     the BSA even left their weapons behind during the check?

16        A.   I was aware about the checking and the different discussions.

17     Initially they were supposed to be checked individually in a tent, but in

18     the end we ended up in the hospital all together.  So I was present and

19     Nikolic as well.  About the weapons, I do not remember.  I do not recall

20     if they had the weapons on them or not, and besides Major Nikolic - I

21     don't know if that's the correct title - I also don't remember if there

22     were more BSA representatives.  But I do remember very well the checking

23     being guarded by the blue -- the special blue helmets.

24        Q.   Paragraph 2 beginning with:

25             "Around 1745 hours the wounded were transported to Bratunac and

Page 1001

 1     seven men, wounded men, were taken to the hospital ..."

 2             Do you know how these wounded were treated?

 3        A.   I do know that these seven young men were chosen in Potocari not

 4     being allowed to be evacuated by ICRC further than Bratunac.  They had to

 5     stay in the Dom Zdravlja in Bratunac.

 6        Q.   Do you know anything about this situation, that the UNMO team

 7     escorted these seven wounded men and made sure that they were treated

 8     well?

 9        A.   I do know that they were transported from Potocari with a UN

10     vehicle.  I don't remember if it was accompanied by UNMO, but they were

11     transported in a UN vehicle from Potocari to Bratunac.  I don't know how

12     well they were treated.

13        Q.   We have another 65 ter document 04471.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you intend to tender the previous document,

15     Mr. Petrusic?

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04469 becomes Exhibit D13, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D13 admitted into evidence.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, would you please take a look at paragraph 2 of this

24     document dated 18th July 1995.

25        A.   Yeah, I have seen paragraph 2.

Page 1002

 1        Q.   Do you know anything about this yourself?

 2        A.   I knew that there were patients in Bratunac from Srebrenica.

 3     Difficults -- were often difficult to have really exact -- I heard about

 4     the war criminal and I knew that ICRC was allowed to have access, and I

 5     believe here the Dutch surgeon - maybe that is mistaken or I am mistaken

 6     and mix it up with the Dutch anesthetist.  Anyway, a Dutch medical doctor

 7     was still there with the patients.  I knew that as well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, unnecessary, I take it, to remind you

 9     that you've still got seven minutes left.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

11     document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objection.

13             Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04471 becomes Exhibit D14, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And finally, Madam, the 55 wounded - and if I'm mistaken in the

19     number please let me know - but were all 55 of them evacuated from the

20     area?

21        A.   On the 17th of July, yes.

22        Q.   I just have a few short questions left.  Now, when you went to

23     Srebrenica on the 24th of June, when you arrived there, did you go

24     through the town itself?

25        A.   Yes, but only through the main centre because we weren't supposed

Page 1003

 1     to move much and we didn't have much time either.

 2        Q.   And that down-town area, the small centre, that was a very small

 3     area perhaps as large as this courtroom or maybe a bit bigger.  And there

 4     were refugees milling about in this area, in the centre itself, on the

 5     10th of July moving towards the --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what company in

 7     Srebrenica.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the name of the company you

 9     just mentioned in Srebrenica.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   That is the Bravo Company.  They had their compound in

12     Srebrenica.

13        A.   Well, on the 10th of July, quite a number of population assembled

14     around the hospital and the medical staff came to us in our bunker and

15     asked for help.  Of course it was not possible that they all slept at

16     that place, and so the authorities of Srebrenica convinced the people to

17     either stay at the hospital compound and sleep somewhere there or go back

18     to their houses.  I'm not aware that somebody did go to Bravo Company but

19     it could be possible, and I'm not aware that in that evening people left

20     for Potocari, but again it also could be possible.

21        Q.   Madam, my question, or rather, I'm putting it to you that from

22     the southern part of the enclave through this narrow street in the centre

23     of the town there were columns of people moving towards -- to get out of

24     Srebrenica.  In order to get out of Srebrenica, did they have to take

25     this street, this main street?

Page 1004

 1        A.   Yes, they did and that happened on the 11th of July.

 2        Q.   And I put it to you that where it -- where the shells -- had the

 3     shells been falling in such a small restricted area as you describe it,

 4     there would have been thousands of casualties; would you agree?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You're seeking an opinion of the witness and not to

 6     agree with any fact you put to her.  We are focusing not on logic but on

 7     facts.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You said that hundreds of shells landed in this area; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   I did say that there was constant shelling on that day of 11th

12     and that it was relatively close to the street people used to walk down

13     to Potocari.  The shells did not hit the people.  The people kept to the

14     road, and so during that flight the -- shells did not hit people.

15        Q.   Were you in Srebrenica on the 13th?  Did you go through the town

16     itself?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  On 13th I asked a Serbian escort and one of the

18     UNMOs, and we did go back because I knew that there had been patients

19     left in the hospital and in the social centre so we did pick them up.

20        Q.   Can you tell us whether you observed anything while moving

21     through the town.  Did you see any damages?

22        A.   It was relatively empty, the town.  I did see people looting and

23     going with different transport possibilities, like a wheelbarrow or

24     whatever down to Bratunac.  There were BSA soldiers present, but nothing

25     more than that.  But then it was a short exercise.  The Serbian escort

Page 1005

 1     was very nervous so we had to be very fast.

 2        Q.   You didn't see any dead people on the streets?

 3        A.   I did not.  I had heard this much later, but myself, I did not

 4     see dead bodies laying.  But then I have also to say I was driving

 5     myself, so I concentrated on driving and on the road.

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

 7     Your Honour.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

 9             Mr. McCloskey, any need to re-examine the witness?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, briefly.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, but perhaps I would like to ask

12     one very short question directly in relation to the statement.

13                           Questioned by the Court:

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I read to you paragraph 44, the relevant portion.

15     It is about the confrontation with Mladic.  I read to you:

16             "I spoke to MSF Belgrade about this," and that was about the plan

17     to evacuate the sick and the wounded Muslims.  So:

18             "I spoke to MSF Belgrade about this and was advised to introduce

19     myself to Mladic and to voice my objections to the proposal."

20             And then the next line reads:

21             "I objected to this because the patients were my responsibility

22     and I did not think ..."

23             May I take it that where you say "I objected to this," that you

24     did not object to the proposal but rather to the plans, the plans being

25     evacuation.  The proposal immediately preceding is that you would

Page 1006

 1     introduce yourself to Mladic and to voice your objections; I take it that

 2     that proposal, you agreed with that?

 3        A.   Immediately, yes, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The language is not perfectly clear here.  Thank you

 5     for that answer.

 6             Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have 65 ter number 14441.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 9        Q.   And this is on the topic of the -- we saw a Zvornik Brigade

10     document that referred to a convoy heading towards the direction of

11     Srebrenica on the 4th of July, and I want to show you what is a report

12     from the 28th Division of the Bosnian Muslim army on the 5th of July.

13     And just briefly want -- I don't need to get into the part about "the

14     aggressor," which is what they refer to the Bosnian Serb Army as.  But

15     just get down to the bottom of the humanitarian situation --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, is it true that the 65 ter number you

17     mentioned, that meanwhile the document was admitted into evidence or is

18     that one of the documents without translation?  Is it the same document?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a new document that I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, the one you referred to earlier.  I'm just

21     trying to find my --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is the first time I've referred to this

23     document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Then I may have misunderstood you.  You

25     introduced -- you started by saying about the -- let me see --

Page 1007

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think I see the -- I

 2     referred to the Zvornik Brigade document --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the one --

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  But in order to save time I've just skipped over

 5     that and --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  But if there is a P or a D number to

 7     it, then I can do it myself and that will not --

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was D12.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D12.  Thank you.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   Just to look and see what the Bosnian army said on this topic on

13     the 5th --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection raised by

16     the Defence.  The witness said that she didn't know anything about this

17     document, about UNHCR convoys; and therefore, there is no basis for

18     introducing a new document by the Prosecution now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you nevertheless wanted this document to be

20     admitted into evidence, isn't it, the previous one, D12?  So if you --

21     even where the witness was not able to say anything about it, you raised

22     the matter, you tendered the document, it was admitted.  Under those

23     circumstances, the Prosecution may address this matter in re-examination.

24             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 1008

 1        Q.   Yes, as I recall you said you needed to check on the UNHCR,

 2     whether or not there was a convoy that day, that you did not recall one

 3     or something to that effect.  And I just want to show you the Muslim

 4     recording of -- on the 5th, and it says:

 5             "A UNHCR convoy yesterday brought 1 kilogramme of flour per

 6     person ..."

 7             Were you aware of the -- does this help you refresh any

 8     recollection or help the situation at all?

 9        A.   No, it does -- I mean, I never heard about this convoy, and even

10     if I read that it -- of course it's possible that it did happen, and this

11     one confirms that it happened.  But here, if you write that 40.000 kilo

12     of flour did come in, that's a very small amount.  Certainly it doesn't

13     correspond with what was being said earlier, so that might have slipped

14     my knowledge.  Anyway, no, I don't know about that.

15        Q.   Well, that's my next question.  It says:

16             "1 kilogramme of flour per person ...," and then it says, "which

17     is an extremely modest amount and can alleviate hunger for only a day or

18     two."

19             Do you agree with that, is that a modest amount that can

20     alleviate hunger for only a day or two?

21        A.   Yes, I think everybody can.

22        Q.   And then it goes on to say:

23             "We request that constant efforts be made to deblock the

24     humanitarian corridor to Srebrenica ..."

25             Does that fit with your understanding that there was a blockage

Page 1009

 1     of the humanitarian corridor to Srebrenica?

 2        A.   Yes, definitely.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this document into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 6             Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14441 becomes Exhibit D33 [sic],

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P --

10             THE REGISTRAR:  P33, Your Honours, I apologise.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P33 is admitted into evidence.

12             Any further questions?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   I would like to go back to a couple of the Telexes where you were

15     questioned by Mr. Petrusic, 65 ter 19814, in this case page 41.  This, I

16     believe, is where you make a reference to men in a house and -- I'm

17     sorry, one moment.  Yes, in the middle of the document we see that you

18     state:

19             "All men have to registrate in a house where a part are being

20     kept, BSA is shooting in the air."

21             First of all, what house?  Is this a house you've spoken of

22     before that these men are being kept?  Do you know what -- do you

23     remember what house you're referring to.

24        A.   Yes, it's the house on the sketch.

25        Q.   Okay.  We'll -- I think we'll clarify that in a minute.  And what

Page 1010

 1     did you mean by "all men have to registrate" in a house?

 2        A.   Maybe the English is not correct, register.  But again, the fact

 3     that men had to register was an information I got from the UN.  It's

 4     something which I did not observe myself and I have never been in that

 5     house myself for security reasons.

 6        Q.   And when you say "UN," UNMO, UNPROFOR, someone else?

 7        A.   Probably Franken because he was the key information source for

 8     me, but I don't remember exactly.

 9        Q.   And what do you mean by "register"?

10        A.   Noting down name, address, date of birth.

11        Q.   Were you --

12        A.   But that's an assumption of myself.

13        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever see any such list of any men?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15        Q.   All right.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.  I believe from

17     my discussions that Mr. Petrusic was going to offer these as well but he

18     had the same problem I had initially so I'm not sure.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think we'll have to briefly discuss how to

20     deal with untranslated documents, et cetera, once we have concluded the

21     testimony of this witness.

22             Any further questions?  I'm also looking at the clock,

23     Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, just a couple more brief --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Keep it very brief, please.

Page 1011

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   You mentioned at page 42 in one of the Telexes that the women

 3     were continuing delivering.  Can you just clarify what you meant when you

 4     said up to four in 24 hours?

 5        A.   No -- we did have seven deliveries during this period, and I

 6     believe that it was mainly the stress of the flight and the situation

 7     which let women earlier deliver.  So they delivered without any privacy

 8     in this makeshift hospital in the UN compound.  Other people were

 9     watching, not much hygiene.

10        Q.   And you're talking babies?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Also on page 43 there was a mention when Mr. Petrusic was

13     asking you about something General Mladic was saying, he also mentioned

14     that there were many bodies of BiH soldiers in the Bandera Triangle.  Can

15     you tell us, have you heard of this Bandera Triangle?

16        A.   No, I never heard that before.

17        Q.   All right.

18        A.   And that's the part of the fax or the Telex of UNMO, so ...

19        Q.   All right.  And there was also on 65 ter 4469 on one of the

20     sitreps a reference to a Major Nikolic.  Now, we saw a reference in

21     the -- in D12 to a Borislav Nikolic.  Can you tell us who this

22     Major Nikolic was, if you know?

23        A.   He was from Bratunac and had been a few times in Potocari.  He

24     was present when the patients were being checked on the 17th.  He was in

25     one of the meetings -- one minute - on the 15th of July, on the 17th of

Page 1012

 1     July, here I'm calling him Commander Nikolic.

 2        Q.   So --

 3        A.   I didn't know his surname.

 4        Q.   Do you know what organisation he was a part of?

 5        A.   I believe he belonged to the BSA.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And lastly, if we could have the sketch up on the board

 7     just to circle that house you were talking about.  It's P28.  Will she be

 8     allowed to work on a document she's already done or should we start with

 9     the original?  I don't know.  Whatever is easiest.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all -- but I see only one house on

11     the document which is clearly recognisable as a house.

12             Is that the house?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President, that works.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             No further questions?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Is that the house that Judge Fluegge was asking you about as

20     well?

21        A.   Yeah.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing further.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Petrusic, any need for further questions?  No need for

Page 1013

 1     further questions.

 2             This means, Ms. Schmitz, that this concludes your testimony in

 3     this court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 4     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

 5     and by the Judges.  You'll now be escorted out of the courtroom by the

 6     usher.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I will very briefly deal with a few other matters.

 9             First on the 9th of July, 2012, the Defence has filed a motion

10     seeking the postponement of Witness Dannatt's testimony for 90 days.

11     Considering that Witness Dannatt's testimony has been postponed and he's

12     currently not scheduled to testify, the Chamber declares the Defence

13     motion moot at this moment.

14             Mr. Groome, at a later moment we'll hear from you further

15     submissions on P18, which as you said would take a bit more time.

16             Mr. McCloskey, associated exhibits, I think we've dealt with all

17     of them so there's no need to have a special category of associated

18     exhibits.  What I would like the parties to do - and that is both for

19     you, Mr. McCloskey, and for you, Mr. Petrusic - is that you make a short

20     list in which you give the 65 ter numbers as now newly uploaded, the

21     separate documents of this 75-page document.  For you, Mr. Petrusic, in

22     which you list and perhaps extract from that same document all those

23     pages of reports, documents you would like to tender, upload them,

24     release them, and then make a list also with the 65 ter numbers or the

25     doc identification numbers.  You give that to Madam Registrar.  She will

Page 1014

 1     provisionally assign numbers to those documents, although some of them

 2     may not be ready yet to be admitted because translation is not yet there.

 3     And, Mr. Petrusic, it's an urgent matter for you then to seek those new

 4     documents to be translated.  Are my instructions clear?

 5             If so, then we will adjourn for the day, and we will resume

 6     tomorrow, Wednesday, the 18th of July at 9.00 in the morning in this same

 7     courtroom, I.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

10                           July, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.