1 Tuesday, 17 July 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, yesterday in my absence there
12 was a short discussion about scheduling. Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is still
13 considering whether or not to adapt in whatever way our schedule, but
14 unfortunately not for today but -- and of course on the longer term we
15 might have further discussions on the matter. But for today we stick to
16 the usual schedule.
17 Then if there are no preliminaries, is the Prosecution ready to
18 call its next witness?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Good morning, everyone.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. And that would be Ms. Schmitz?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting for that, there is
24 a short matter that I can report to the Chamber, if it pleases the Court,
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so if we can deal with it.
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, yesterday 65 ter 10822 was marked as
3 P15 and marked for identification because the Defence objected to the
4 admission of this document as an exhibit because it is in English yet
5 purports to be authored by General Dragomir Milosevic. Mr. Lukic was
6 correct in raising this objection. Having investigated the matter, I
7 have some idea about the possible explanation for why this is. I think
8 it is most appropriate to lead evidence on it with an upcoming witness.
9 So at this stage the Prosecution will not move forward with the tendering
10 but will lead additional evidence to explain the circumstances as to why
11 it's in English.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will then wait for that witness to appear
13 and P15 remains marked for identification.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Schmitz, I take it. Ms. Schmitz, before you
18 give evidence the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration that
19 you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 The text is now handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you to make
21 that solemn declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
23 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Schmitz. Please be seated.
25 You'll first be examined by the Prosecution.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 WITNESS: CHRISTINE SCHMITZ
3 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
4 Q. Good morning.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Can you tell us your name, please.
7 A. My name is Christine Schmitz.
8 Q. And you recently testified in the Karadzic case?
9 A. Yes, I did, end of March.
10 Q. And you've had a chance to look at your -- what we've referred to
11 and is marked as the amalgamated statement for this case?
12 A. I did.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, that is 65 ter 28321.
14 Q. And is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge?
15 A. It is true and correct.
16 Q. And if you were asked about that information, would you be giving
17 the same answers related to that information?
18 A. Yes, I would.
19 Q. All right. Thank you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer that statement into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, Mr. Petrusic will cross-examine this
23 witness so --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: He will deal with the rest of --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections against the statement --
2 MR. LUKIC: No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. No objections.
4 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10638 becomes Exhibit P27, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P27 is admitted into evidence.
7 You may proceed.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a second. That's the wrong --
11 THE REGISTRAR: The number is wrong.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The number is wrong. Madam Registrar, would you
14 THE REGISTRAR: The number -- document number --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: -- 10638 becomes Exhibit P27, Your Honours. No.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's supposed to be document 28321.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- I apologise, Your Honours. Document
19 28321 becomes Exhibit P27.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P27 is now for the third time admitted into
22 evidence. It is undated, the amalgamated statement of Ms. Schmitz.
23 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And now I'll read a summary of that statement for
1 Christine Schmitz is a qualified nurse. She first began her work
2 with the NGO Doctors Without Borders, known as MSF, in 1991. In her work
3 as a nurse for MSF, she's worked around the world in places as Somalia,
4 Iraq, Liberia, Sudan, and Chechnya. On June 24th, 1995, Ms. Schmitz
5 arrived in Srebrenica in the enclave belong with her MSF colleague,
6 Dr. Daniel O'Brien. Ms. Schmitz took up the post of field co-ordinator
7 for the MSF project in the Srebrenica enclave, basically in charge of
8 that project.
9 The project had been up and running and was centred upon offering
10 medical care to the population of the enclave. Ms. Schmitz monitored the
11 MSF medical programme in Srebrenica and supervised the local staff.
12 Along with her medical duties, Ms. Schmitz had responsibility for
13 security issues, liaison with local authorities, other NGOs, and the
14 Dutch Battalion, known as DutchBat. She made regular reports via telex
15 to MSF in Belgrade. She lived in a house next to the hospital near the
16 centre of Srebrenica town.
17 After her arrival, Ms. Schmitz was informed by UNHCR and the
18 local authorities that there was a shortage of food in the enclave and
19 that some people were suffering from starvation. MSF in Belgrade had
20 informed her that the Bosnian Serbs were refusing to allow regular food
21 and medical convoys to the enclave. On July 6th there was a definite
22 change in the situation in Srebrenica and she was awakened by heavy
23 shelling that sounded close to the town but not in the town itself. She
24 moved to the bunker under the hospital. During the following days, a
25 pattern developed of periods of heavy shelling in and around the town
1 interspersed with periods of quiet. Due to the shelling, an increased
2 number of shelling victims were brought to the hospital for treatment.
3 By 10 July the hospital was so full of wounded that the doctors
4 had difficulty coping. On the 10th, shells began landing in town,
5 including right across the street from the hospital. The population of
6 Srebrenica was extremely frightened and seeking protection with the UN
7 forces. The local Muslim medical staff feared for the patients and
8 wanted to evacuate them and spoke of atrocities at the Vukovar Hospital
9 earlier in the war. On 11 July the local population left towards the
10 Dutch base in Potocari. The local doctors at the hospital decided to
11 evacuate the patients and move everyone to Potocari due to the increasing
12 danger, and Ms. Schmitz and Dr. O'Brien accepted that.
13 Ms. Schmitz and others joined a large number of Muslims walking
14 up the road to Potocari. She could hear shells exploding close to the
15 road as they walked. She reached the UN compound in Potocari that
16 afternoon and by the evening of 11 July estimated about 20.000 Muslims
17 had assembled in the area around the UN base. As she walked through the
18 crowd of Muslims that evening, she noticed shells frequently exploding in
19 the vicinity and people were sitting in the open air shivering with fear
20 and begging her to take them inside the UN enclave.
21 On 12 July she supervised the set-up of medical treatment tents
22 by DutchBat across the street from the UN compound. While arranging this
23 she met briefly with the local Muslim logistics officer named Meho. She
24 implored him to come to the compound with her for his personal safety and
25 to assist in the sanitation system. But he refused in order to stay with
1 his family and she's not seen him since that time. At about noon
2 Ms. Schmitz was informed by DutchBat that General Mladic wanted to begin
3 evacuating the sick and wounded Muslims. She objected to this as the
4 patients were her responsibility and she did not think it was right to
5 turn them over to the Bosnian Serbs for transport. She sought out
6 General Mladic and found him just outside the compound gates where she
7 spoke to him briefly on the matter.
8 During the day she drove up and down the main road looking for
9 patients. During this time she noticed mainly women and children and
10 some old men being loaded onto buses and she was told people were being
11 separated, though she did not see this at this point. She did notice
12 that people were exhausted and frightened and desperate to leave. That
13 evening, sometime before 9.00 p.m., she continued to drive along the road
14 seeking out patients. At this point she again encountered General Mladic
15 and sought his permission to continue her search and the General agreed
16 she could.
17 On the 13th of July, the transportation of the local population
18 continued. A Muslim man followed by a Serb soldier with a rifle
19 approached Ms. Schmitz and handed her his baby. The man was crying and
20 very frightened. Ms. Schmitz also witnessed that day the beating of a
21 Muslim man by Bosnian Serb soldiers. From the 14th to the 17th, much of
22 her time was spent negotiating for the evacuation of MSF patients and
23 their local staff. MSF had seven local male workers and one local female
24 interpreter working for them. On 17 July, the MSF patients were
25 evacuated safely by the ICRC from the enclave. On 21 July Ms. Schmitz,
1 Dr. O'Brien, and eight local staff and five of their relatives, along
2 with two patients, were allowed to leave the enclave and travel to
4 Q. Is that a correct summary of some of what you have told us in
5 your statement?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, two observations. First, the
8 summary, three full pages, the Chamber had in mind close to one page. So
9 it's a very extensive summary. Could you please keep that in mind.
10 Second, it's just for the public, so whether the summary is accurate or
11 not of course is not for the witness because the summary is not evidence.
12 The evidence is the statement, nothing more, nothing less. Please
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
15 Q. If we can go over a couple of the points that were brought up
16 just to provide some context and some clarification. When you mention
17 that on 10 July the hospital was so full of wounded that there was
18 difficulty coping, can you give us a rough estimate of, you know, how
19 many wounded or injured people there were in the hospital at that point?
20 A. Well, I think the hospital was not totally full yet at that time.
21 It had not been full at all before the bombing started. I think the main
22 issue about not coping was that we did only have one national surgeon who
23 was totally overworked. We were not allowed to have an international
24 surgeon who would have been very helpful at this time, so he was only
25 able to operate on one patient at a time assisted by another general
2 So patients being brought in, for example, suffering of shrapnel
3 wounds could not be taken care of in case they needed an operation
4 because he was only able to work on one patient. So they were laying
5 patients everywhere in the corridors. There was one truck who was still
6 functioning and did have fuel, so -- this truck had a special horn, and
7 when we did hear the horn - and we did hear that often - then we knew
8 more patients were coming in. The hospital was totally full but also
9 with relatives and friends who were worried about the wounded.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Schmitz, sorry to interrupt, but would you
11 please focus your answer on the question because you have now explained
12 why there was only one doctor. The simple question was whether you give
13 an estimate of the number of wounded.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And injured people in the hospital, and we are
16 limited in our time.
17 Yes, please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Yes, roughly how many people was that, if you recall? Just your
20 best estimate.
21 A. My best estimate would be 50 to 60 patients.
22 Q. And who were these folks? Were they -- were there able-bodied
23 men among them? Were there any women and children? Just can you give us
24 a description of who they were and what kind of injuries they had? Just
25 very briefly.
1 A. There were women and children among the patients, but the bigger
2 part were young men who were being brought from the centre and the
4 Q. And what were their injuries, basically?
5 A. Most of the injuries were results from the bombings, so shrapnel
6 wounds, yes.
7 Q. Okay. And you had told us in your statement that the doctor, the
8 local doctors, were afraid and wanted to move the patients out and
9 mentioned something about Vukovar Hospital. What were your understanding
10 of what this reference to Vukovar hospital was?
11 A. Well, I didn't know all the details, but I had understood or I
12 just knew that in Vukovar years earlier, some 200 patients had been just
13 killed in the hospital beds and this is what local doctors wanted to
14 avoid and therefore bring them to Potocari.
15 Q. Was there any knowledge with you at the time on who allegedly had
16 killed the patients of the Vukovar Hospital?
17 A. No, not exactly.
18 Q. Do you know which side, which army, if anyone, or was it just
20 A. No, that was not known to me.
21 Q. Okay. All right. And as you were going up towards Potocari with
22 the crowd, you said you could hear shells exploding close to the road.
23 Can you describe that briefly and what you made of those shells exploding
24 close to the road?
25 A. Well, it -- to me it appeared as if the shells were supposed to
1 fall like this, that the crowd did stay on the road and did not try --
2 the people did not try to escape, but that was my feeling. I understood
3 it like this, we should stay on the road and nobody was supposed to
5 Q. Can you tell us how you got that feeling? That's hard to
7 A. It's -- okay. Difficult to explain. And it was not so that the
8 shell was exploding right close to a person but maybe 5 to 10 metres
9 further, exactly.
10 Q. Okay. Now you also said that when you were walking around the
11 compound, the local Muslims were shivering with fear. What do you mean
12 by that? Can you just describe that? Try to put us there briefly.
13 A. Well, that was the time of the 11th and 12th, 11th especially, in
14 the evening when all the displaced had arrived in Potocari. They were
15 just sitting and shivering with fear when the shells were falling and
16 very afraid and trembling and very -- also in apathetic state, they were
17 basically shocked not knowing what was going to happen, so they were very
19 Q. And where were these shells falling at this point, as far as you
20 could make out?
21 A. Again, certainly shells were falling around Potocari, around the
22 compound, around the place, outside the UN compound where the displaced
23 were just sitting on the ground. Given that I was then in Potocari, I
24 don't know if more shells were falling in Srebrenica itself.
25 Q. Now let's --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could I seek clarification of one of
2 the previous answers.
3 You said: "It was not that the shell was exploding right close to
4 a person but maybe 5 to 10 metres further, exactly." Do I understand
5 that the persons you refer to were persons on the road --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- and that the shells fell within 5 to 10 metres,
8 so immediately next to the road? Is that -- 5 to 10 metres -- 5 metres
9 is the distance between you and me at this moment. Was it that close?
10 THE WITNESS: It was that close, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: None of the shells hit the road ever?
12 THE WITNESS: Not when I was present and on the road with the
14 JUDGE ORIE: How many shells did you see falling within such a
15 short distance from the road? Was it one or ten or 50, approximately?
16 THE WITNESS: That is difficult to say because I was not always
17 watching when the shells were falling, but just rather trying to look
18 ahead because we were driving behind a walking population. I did more
19 hear them. So on the way down to Potocari -- it's difficult for me to
20 say if it were two or 20.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Was it by sound that you determined that they were
22 falling within 5 or 10 metres or did you -- I mean, if a shell falls at
23 such a short distance, you would expect more than just to hear the sound
24 but also to see something, dust -- well, you may be better aware of how
25 an explosion looks but ...
1 THE WITNESS: It was mostly by hearing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next day, on the 12th of July, that's
6 a day when the Bosnian Serb army arrived. And you mentioned that you
7 sought out General Mladic to speak to him about what you'd heard was his
8 plan, to remove your patients. And what time -- roughly what time of day
9 did you search out General Mladic?
10 A. That was around noon.
11 Q. And did you find him?
12 A. Yes, I did -- well, I did not go on my own, but I did go with one
13 of the UN liaison team, whose name I don't remember or maybe even never
14 knew, and he was just outside the compound on the street.
15 Q. Sorry, who was?
16 A. Ratko Mladic, together with his interpreter, was outside of the
17 UN compound just on the street.
18 Q. And can you describe the scene at that time that you saw
19 General Mladic?
20 A. It was very crowded, very hot. He was walking down towards me,
21 although not on purpose I believe towards me but just that direction, so
22 I went to see him.
23 Q. Did he have anyone with him?
24 A. Yeah, he did have an interpreter with him, a young guy.
25 Q. And what was he wearing?
1 A. Mr. Mladic was wearing camouflage, so a uniform.
2 Q. And what happened?
3 A. Well, I did go up to him and introduced myself, who we were, what
4 our work was in Srebrenica, and I did also explain to him that we would
5 be also working on -- in other areas, supporting Serbian population. And
6 then I said that I had heard that he had wanted to evacuate the patients
7 and that I would strongly object against it, that I would feel it would
8 be the responsibility of MSF to organise the evacuation and not the BSA.
9 Q. And what was his response, if any?
10 A. Well, I do not know what his response was because he did speak in
11 Serbo-Croatian, but his translator, his interpreter, just told me that I
12 should go and do my job and that was it.
13 Q. Do you recall the General's physical expression, attitude towards
15 A. I had the feeling that I was disturbing him. He wasn't
16 interested in what I had to say.
17 Q. What gave you that feeling?
18 A. He did not really react on what I said.
19 Q. And how were you able to conclude this was General Mladic?
20 A. I knew him from before from different media broadcasts.
21 Q. All right. And when did the -- did the patients actually get
22 evacuated first, as you heard was going to happen?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. And just remind us, when did the -- your patients
25 actually get evacuated?
1 A. On the 17th of July, in the evening, by ICRC.
2 Q. All right. And did you again see General Mladic that evening?
3 A. Yes, I did see General Mladic on the 12th of July, in the
4 evening, around 9.00, when I was again outside among the displaced
5 looking for patients. I saw him and I had the feeling that there was a
6 question in his face like: What is she doing here? And so together with
7 my female interpreter, Amira, I went up to him and requested to be
8 allowed to pick up sick and wounded and he agreed.
9 Q. And could we go to 65 ter 28323. Do you recall making a rough
10 sketch of the Potocari area, the UN compound?
11 A. Yes, I do. That was 1999.
12 Q. And that should hopefully come up on the screen. Is this your
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And there should also be -- I believe there's a translation of
16 it, though it's pretty clear. We see "Bratunac" in the top. I don't
17 know if we catch the whole bottom of that. Maybe we make it a little
18 smaller because I think there's Srebrenica in the arrow towards the
19 bottom. And DutchBat compound, is that the rough triangle to the right
20 of the picture?
21 A. That's a kind of square, different -- there were different
22 buildings, so it's really a rough sketch.
23 Q. Okay. And these parallel lines in the middle, what is that?
24 A. The one going up to Bratunac is the street that was Tarmac, and
25 horizontal to that didn't mean anything. That was on the right side but
1 also some on the left side where the big groups of displaced people just
2 sitting on the ground.
3 Q. All right. And the -- there's a triangles and I think you've
4 marked tents there for your -- that's where you set up your medical area?
5 A. Yes -- well, that was the beginning. We didn't use them at all
6 in the end because -- yeah, we did not.
7 Q. Okay and --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Tents where, Mr. McCloskey? I can't read the
9 writing here, it's too small.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. There's a pen, she'll show you -- someone will show you how to
12 write, and if you could circle the area of the tents.
13 A. So opposite the Dutch compound I had requested some UN soldiers
14 to put up some tents which I had wanted to use for triage, to see
15 patients, so these were three tents from the UNPROFOR who set it up.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we see, for the record, she's circled that
19 Q. And I know this is not -- this is not to scale, but can you see
20 about the area where you first had that brief meeting with General Mladic
21 about the transport of the patients? And if you could put an M there if
22 you can identify where you first ran into him.
23 A. It's here.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, I'd offer this exhibit into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, no. One second, please.
2 If you want to discuss anything with counsel, it's better -- your voice
3 is very loud if your earphones are still in. We can even hear through
4 our -- yes, you would like to consult for a second with Mr. Lukic.
5 Please do so.
6 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, can we continue?
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we can.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 First I would like to seek one clarification of one of the
11 answers and then we'll deal with the marked sketch.
12 Ms. Schmitz, you told us about the first encounter you had with
13 Mr. Mladic. Then you were asked when did your patients actually get
14 evacuated? You said on the 17th of July in the evening by the ICRC.
15 Then the next question was:
16 "All right. And did you again see General Mladic that evening?"
17 Your answer was:
18 "Yes, I did see General Mladic on the 12th of July in the
20 Mr. McCloskey was not entirely clear whether that evening was the
21 evening of the 12th of July or of the 17th of July. Did I understand
22 your testimony well that you did again see Mr. Mladic in the evening of
23 the 12th of July but not on the 17th of July?
24 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: I met him twice on the 12th of July.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. McCloskey, "that evening" is asking for confusion. It has
4 been clarified.
5 Any objection against the admission into evidence of the sketch?
6 May I take it you would be happy with the sketch as marked by the
7 witness or do you need two versions?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think just one marked is fine.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Petrusic, no objections?
11 MR PETRUSIC: [No interpretation].
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28323, marked by the witness, becomes
14 Exhibit P28, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P28 is admitted.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Ms. Schmitz, we can see that you've got a binder of things in
19 front of you that you've glanced at a bit. Can you tell us what that is?
20 A. These are mainly all the Telexes. Most of them I had sent to our
21 team in Belgrade and there are a few whom I received back. I didn't
22 rescue all of them, but the ones I wrote I have them with me here.
23 Q. All right. And if you need to take a look at those to refresh
24 your recollection or help answer a question, just let us know and I think
25 that should be fine.
1 In fact, now I just want to go over a few of those to give us a
2 feeling about the kind of things you were reporting.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: So could we go to 65 ter 19814.
4 Q. And we'll see there is an original -- that is not what I've got.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, it's page 3 in e-court -- in the English
6 and 1 in B/C/S.
7 Q. Now, you can see from this that we have somehow got a copy that
8 has a marking on it over the -- over certain part of it. Do you have --
9 can you, first of all, tell us what this is?
10 A. This is the first Telex which I wrote on the 6th of July.
11 Q. And we don't see the 6th of July written anywhere there. Where
12 would the -- is that written on that document somewhere?
13 A. You mean on my document?
14 Q. So the one on the screen. Good question.
15 A. Well, it's under the mark.
16 Q. All right. And what time of day is it from the document itself?
17 Can we tell?
18 A. It's 4.52 in the morning.
19 Q. All right. And we see that on the Telex. All right. And this
20 is where you say that:
21 "... since 45 minutes heavy shelling of the surrounding of the
22 town, not in the town itself."
23 Is that a true and correct communication to Belgrade?
24 A. That is my true communication, but of course it was judging by
25 hearing where the shells were falling. I couldn't get any more
1 confirmation on that.
2 Q. And when you say that you're dismantling the radio and will go to
3 the shelter, what do you mean by that?
4 A. Well, that means that in -- that's the security who were with
5 MSF, if there's bombing, you should seek protection in a bunker so -- and
6 the radio, we did need to keep up the communication with Belgrade. So I
7 took the radio and Daniel and myself went into the bunker.
8 Q. All right.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer that document into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, before we further discuss this
11 document, this document is in e-court 1 out of 75 pages. You just want
12 this page?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I've decided just to take a
14 few examples and not have the entire collection unless --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then this should be newly uploaded. We can't just
16 admit 1 out of 75 pages into evidence. A new upload exercise has to be
17 done. This brings me to my second point. The witness said that the date
18 is under the marking.
19 Now, I do understand, first of all, the marking does not appear
20 at all in the B/C/S translation. It's just as if it says "UTC Vri jeme"
21 and then gives the time. Now if you carefully look at it, the last two
22 digits of what seems to be under the marking seems to be 06, which would
23 be perhaps in accordance with the date the witness gave us. Is there any
24 version where by copying -- any version where the original can be looked
25 at so that we know what is under the marking? Because that usually
1 disappears if you start colouring or marking. Is there any better
2 version of it? Perhaps the witness would know.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I asked that same question of the OTP and the
4 answer was no, but I did not go to the witness for that, so perhaps --
5 THE WITNESS: The originals are with me and they are not marked,
6 but they are not here in The Hague. They are in Berlin.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any way that you could provide even
8 copies of the unmarked versions would reveal the date again. Is there
9 any way that -- for example, that this one, perhaps you write down which
10 one it is --
11 THE WITNESS: Sure.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- be sent to the Office of the Prosecution.
13 THE WITNESS: Could I have a pen?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if we -- if the witness has a piece of paper
15 and a pen so that she can write down.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you so much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. McCloskey, please keep this in your mind.
18 We can't mark it identification because then we'll have had the whole 75
19 pages, so please reorganise your exhibits in such a way that we later can
20 discuss the -- either the marking for identification or admission into
21 evidence of this document.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Ms. Stewart's got me on -- in control on that
23 right now, so we should be there soon.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear from you. Please proceed.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Let's go to another one. 65 ter 19814, it should be page 5 in
2 e-court. It's English page 5 and B/C/S page 2.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's another wrong -- mistake. 19814, we've just
4 finished with.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- again, that's now page 5 out of the 75
7 pages? Thank you.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, these are all from the same 65 ter number,
9 which was -- created a bit of the issue before. So I'll just go to the
10 e-court page and sort this out.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there's no problem with it -- the date.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Now, do you recognise this?
15 A. Sure, I do.
16 Q. And what is it?
17 A. Well, it's one of my next Telexes on the 6th of July after the
18 security meeting which usually was taking place in Srebrenica at 10.00.
19 So usually after the meeting I went home and sent to the team in Belgrade
20 the key issues. So if you read security: 5th of July, indicators of the
21 attack, et cetera, that were not my information but this information came
22 from the security meeting.
23 Q. And can you tell us, was this security meeting a regular meeting?
24 A. Yes, it was a daily meeting in the P TT meeting opposite the
1 Q. And who took part in these regular meetings?
2 A. So one person of DutchBat usually took part; one or two UNMOs,
3 United Nations Military Observers; sometimes the national staff of ICRC;
4 sometimes the national staff of UNHCR; and myself.
5 Q. All right. And in looking at this we see: "6/7 0.30 a.m. six
6 rockets at UNPROFOR compound (two exploded)." Can you tell us what that
7 6/7 means, if you recall?
8 A. That's the date. That happened in that morning, according to the
9 security meeting.
10 Q. And I sometimes confuse dates. Can you just confirm what this --
11 what actual dates these are?
12 A. It does mean 6th of -- the information from the security meeting
13 was that on the same day, 6th of July, 30 minutes after midnight, six
14 rockets at UNPROFOR compound.
15 Q. Now, do you know or recall which UNPROFOR compound received these
17 A. It was the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari.
18 Q. And is there another UNPROFOR compound?
19 A. There was a much smaller one called Bravo Company, which was
20 approximately 1 kilometre further from the hospital towards the north.
21 So between Potocari and the hospital there was Bravo Company. If they
22 would have fallen there, we would have heard them.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I will also be offering this exhibit.
24 Q. Could we go to another one of your documents. This is e-court
25 page 22, the same 65 ter number, page 7 in the B/C/S. We can again see
1 this is from you. Is this another one of your Telexes, this time dated
2 the 10th of July?
3 A. I still haven't found it, 10.55. Yes, I did find it and indeed
4 it's a Telex of myself to UNPROFOR.
5 Q. And that is UNPROFOR in the enclave, DutchBat UNPROFOR; is that
7 A. Yes, at Potocari.
8 Q. And we see that you conclude here -- well you say in the first
9 sentence that:
10 "... now the surrounding of the hospital and our house are being
11 targeted by the shells."
12 Can you tell us upon which -- what observations or information
13 you made that conclusion?
14 A. Well, this Telex was triggered by the fact that one shell fell
15 and exploded right across the hospital which -- or towards our bunker, so
16 it was extremely close. And in general the bombing had concentrated on
17 the centre, so the danger of the shells falling came closer towards us.
18 But the most - how to say? - impressive or shocking was the shell across
19 the hospital and I was -- after it had exploded I ran there to see if
20 people were wounded, which were not, but I could see the crater of it and
21 the windows were broken in the hospital from this explosion.
22 Q. Can you tell us how you were first aware of the explosion? Which
23 of your senses caught this explosion?
24 A. I was in the bunker and I heard an enormous noise - that was the
25 explosion. And my first thought was: This could have been just in front
1 of the bunker and I would be trapped, so it shocked me and I was
2 trembling with fear a second. So -- but then I realised I could still go
3 outside and --
4 Q. And when did you go outside?
5 A. Maybe a minute after.
6 Q. And what did you see?
7 A. I did run outside and did see the crater opposite the road -- no,
8 not opposite the road, opposite the hospital, opposite our bunker where
9 the shell had exploded.
10 Q. Can you give us again your best estimate in metres how far this
11 crater was from the hospital?
12 A. Maybe 10 to 15 metres.
13 Q. Again, you can use the courtroom.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what, in your estimate, is the
15 width of this courtroom?
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm just trying. Well, if I would be where
17 the person is sitting until the wall there, is that 15 metres
18 approximately? That was approximately the distance.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now there are many persons seated there. May I
20 take it --
21 THE WITNESS: The first person to me --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- the lady -- the lady closest to you, and then --
23 THE WITNESS: There is only one lady.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the --
25 THE WITNESS: The first lady.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- the second row in the courtroom on the Defence
2 side, 15 metres.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. Now can we go to one more of the communications.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, perhaps one question.
8 The hospital was not hit; is that correctly understood.
9 THE WITNESS: The hospital was not hit itself.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. I'd like to go to -- I have 19832, it's page 1 in e-court in
13 English. And we'll see a date of this - to help you - it should be the
14 10th of July. And this is, according to the document, to you and Daniel,
15 and we see:
16 "From Bene, Pitou, and Stef."
17 Can you tell us what this is, this document to you?
18 A. This is a Telex from the team in Belgrade. Bene was the
19 administrator, Pitou the logistician, and Stefan the head of mission.
20 And they tried to cheer us up a bit.
21 Q. I can see that. Now, you note that -- or, excuse me, they note
23 "As we said on the radio, we agree with your analysis on your
24 security conditions ..."
25 What is this reference to the radio? Can you explain to us your
1 communication ability on radio?
2 A. I do not remember on what these exactly was the response. I can
3 only imagine. I mean we spoke every day. At the time of the 10th of
4 July, we tried to stay as much in the bunker, but in quiet times Daniel
5 went into the hospital to help. I did go to the security meetings.
6 Sometimes we went to the house to have a shower. Also security --
7 Q. Sorry, just -- sorry for interrupting.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. But just the radio, what kind of radio communications did you
10 have? This is the first we've seen a reference to communication by
12 A. I never know the name in English for what we use in German. I
13 know only the name "radio." Maybe Mr. Fluegge can help.
14 "Ein Funkgeraet." I don't know if there is any other expression in
15 English for that.
16 Q. That's fine. We'll work with that. But was it a two-way radio?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And where were you able to use it from? Did it -- operate it out
19 of the bunker or did you have to go somewhere else?
20 A. We could operate from the bunker, it was possible. We had --
21 earlier we had used it in the house, there was an antenna, and we could
22 operate it in the bunker. And later on in Potocari we did have a radio
23 in the car, so we were able to use it there only in the car because
24 nothing was installed in Potocari.
25 Q. Okay.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, before you continue, may I ask you
2 for a clarification, Ms. Schmitz. On page 26, lines 3 and 4, you told us
3 who these three people are, Bene, Pitou, and Stef, but it was not
4 correctly recorded. Bene was the administrator; is that correct?
5 A. Benedict was her real name. She was the administrator in
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And who was Pitou?
8 THE WITNESS: Pitou was a nickname of Eric, who was the
9 logistician. And Stef was the abbreviation of Stefan who was the head of
10 mission in Belgrade, so basically my superior.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. All right. Just looking briefly --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, I'm very sorry, "the head of mission" instead
14 of "liaison." It should read "head of mission" in line 17 of page 27.
15 Is that correct, head of mission?
16 THE WITNESS: Head of mission, yes. Not liaison. I haven't said
17 that at all.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have it now. Thanks.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And just taking a look at paragraph 4 here, I won't read it all
21 out, but there's a mention that they believe it's important that you
22 agree with UNPROFOR to have regular contact and that they go on to say
23 that it would be good to ask them if they would be ready to come and pick
24 you up. Did that ever happen, where UNPROFOR actually agreed to come
25 pick you up?
1 A. They did agree to pick us up but it was not necessary.
2 Q. You walked?
3 A. No, we -- we took three of our -- well, we took all of our cars,
4 which were three.
5 Q. All right. And --
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll also be offering that as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's a one-page document. No objections. 19832.
8 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19832 becomes Exhibit P29, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P29 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
13 Q. Could we now go to 65 ter 28064 -- sorry that should be 65. I
14 misread that. So it's 28065, sorry.
15 Can you just tell us -- I mean, we see what it says this is, but
16 in your experience did you see any cards like this?
17 A. Yes, I did. This is a typical old ID card of MSF, old because it
18 did have the former logo on it, the cross, whilst nowadays we have a
19 human being as a logo.
20 Q. And do you recognise this person?
21 A. It's difficult to say because the last time when I was here I saw
22 that ID card as well, and I know who the person is, Meho, but also last
23 time I did say I would not have recognised him if I would just have seen
24 it out of the blue. I did not know Meho well, I saw him only very
25 briefly only twice in the time I was in Srebrenica.
1 Q. All right. And has someone told you that this picture is Meho?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is that the Meho that you refer to in your statement, the
4 person that you implored to get -- to come into the base but he stayed
5 with his family?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this exhibit into evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, may I ask you for what purposes, to
9 give us an example of an ID card or to give us Meho? Because the witness
10 said that she was unable to see whether this was him and that she was
11 told it was him, so for that purposes I would be hesitant to accept it as
12 evidence but -- or is it just to give an example of an ID card; and then,
13 of course, what's the relevance of knowing -- does it play any role
14 anywhere else?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can ask one more question and then perhaps that
16 will answer and I can also answer your question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Have you received information of where -- if Meho's remains were
20 ever recovered?
21 A. Yes, I understood that Meho had been killed and found in a mass
22 grave and then the ID card was also found. So --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is that already in the statement, Mr. ...
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: You know, I can't remember.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe it is.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's not -- okay, but -- okay, even having heard the
3 answer to that question, what is the probative value of this document?
4 Is it about identity cards or is it about a person being recognised by
5 the witness, where the witness said, I would not have recognised him but
6 I was told that it was him?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if we -- you will hear or there
8 will be part of the record evidence of the exhumation of this man and
9 this was recovered in the exhumation. It will help with proof of death,
10 it will help build context and tie into her testimony.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies everything for me. It is an ID card
12 of which you'll later prove it was found with a certain person in a mass
13 grave. Is that --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Any objections against admission?
16 If not, Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28065 becomes Exhibit P30, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And the last subject I want to ask you briefly about is you
21 mention in your statement that you spent some time before leaving the
22 enclave and negotiating for the evacuation of the wounded and your local
23 staff. Can you tell us how many local staff you had working for you at
24 the time in the enclave?
25 A. Well, we did have 13 local staff working for us, so drivers,
1 interpreters, cooks, cleaners, staff, which was not having anything to do
2 medical programme. Eight of these staff were staying with us in the UN
3 compound. Meho we just spoke about, and the remaining staff did choose
4 their own way to leave Srebrenica.
5 Q. All right. And could we go to 65 ter number 21103D. It should
6 be e-court page 1 in the English. And this is, as you have been told, an
7 intercept conversation that the Bosnian army intercepted, according to
8 the Prosecution this is from -- intercept between VRS participants. And
9 I just want to ask you if you recognise any of the names on this
10 intercept. The first page we see a Djurdjic, a Colonel Djurdjic, does
11 that name ring any bells for you?
12 A. Not at all.
13 Q. And Jankovic, does that mean anything for you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And as we go to the bottom of the page, we see there's the name
16 clearly "Kristina" and then "(SSmit?)" meaning that it's not clear
17 exactly what word that is, and then we see below that also a question
18 mark "Daniel O'Brien." I take it that those names are familiar to you?
19 A. Yes, I think it's myself and Daniel.
20 Q. All right. And let's go to the next page if we can. And again,
21 I'm really interested in the content at this point, but we do see a
22 reference in the middle of the page to the Koljevic government. Does
23 this name "Koljevic" mean anything to you?
24 A. Well, I understood that this was a professor in Pale where my
25 head of mission in Belgrade did have contact with.
1 Q. All right. And do you recall any contact that your head of
2 office had at this time-period, this July, this intercept is from 19 July
3 1995, as we can see from the original, the B/C/S version?
4 A. No, I do not recall any contact.
5 Q. All right. And if we look down the intercepts, we see names
6 Abdulah Kurtovic, Ibrahim Ibrahimovic and others. Do any of those
7 names -- do you remember any of those names?
8 A. Yes, very well. Abdulah Kurtovic was our cook; Ibrahim, our
9 house keeper; Muhidin, the assistant logistician; Muhamed the
10 logistician; Sahim [phoen], assistant logistician; and three drivers.
11 Q. And were those all males?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Within the ages of 18 to 60?
14 A. Yes, and it's seven. It's the seven male staff being with us.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence, though of
16 course there will be more evidence on intercepts.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
18 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 21103D becomes Exhibit P31,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. You're talking about
22 an intercept. Would the audio be included?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, just the transcript.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This is one of the large collections of
1 Srebrenica intercepts where there is not audios. There are some but --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Just for me to know. Please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. All right. And lastly I'd like to go to 65 ter number 05817 and
5 this has been under seal, so if we could just not broadcast it. I
6 believe the original is in B/C/S on your left and we have an English
7 translation. We see here --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, there's no need to go into private
9 session for -- if it's under seal, then of course the testimony itself
10 could also reveal -- I do not know exactly why it is under seal, but
11 please think about it carefully, and I expect you to ask for private
12 session if you think that apart from the document, also the questions and
13 answer could reveal anything which should not be revealed to the public.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think we're going to be able to have this
15 unsealed. This had slipped through the cracks of the document, but out
16 of an abundance of caution we'll take care.
17 Q. Have you seen this document before? It's dated 19 July, the same
18 date as that intercept?
19 A. I think I saw it before when I was here in March but I do not
20 have it.
21 Q. All right. And could you just take a look at those names and if
22 we could just briefly allow her to go through that to see the names.
23 A. Well, it's basically our Belgium office who is sending a list of
24 the national staff to the 2nd Corps of the army.
25 Q. And are those the same people you just saw mentioned in that
2 A. Yes. I -- so far I do see only four --
3 Q. If we could get on to the next --
4 A. -- but I believe there must come more. So until number 8 it's
5 the national staff. Number 10 is the wife of our logistician, number 11
6 the son of our logistician. I believe number 9 is the mother of our
7 logistician, number 12 is the son of our driver, number 13 is the son of
8 our driver, and then 14, 15 are the two old patients who had been found
9 later after the 13th of July and we were requested to take them, so we
11 Q. Did you have anything to do with the drafting of the receipt of
12 this particular letter?
13 A. Not at all -- well, I did forward all the names to Belgrade, so
14 the information basically came from Srebrenica from MSF.
15 Q. Okay. Did you ever give any of these names of the staff to the
16 Bosnian Serb army folks?
17 A. Yes, we did give a list of the staff. I would have to consult my
18 own papers when we did that exactly, to whom. On top of my head, I don't
19 remember that.
20 Q. All right. If perhaps you could do that at the break and tell
21 that to us. And I also forgot to mention, do you still work for MSF?
22 A. No, I don't. I stopped in 2007.
23 Q. And where do you work now?
24 A. I'm working in mobile palliative care. I now work as a volunteer
25 with the Jesuit Refugee Service.
1 Q. And where is that?
2 A. That's in Berlin.
3 Q. So no Syria, no Libya anymore?
4 A. I would love to, but at present I do have family reasons why I
5 have to stay, and I must say I'm exhausted after 15 different projects
6 with MSF in acute war situations, so I need a rest.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I have nothing further though I
9 would like to offer this into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the -- under seal.
11 Any objection against the letter containing a list of names?
12 Madam Registrar, the number would be ... ?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05817 becomes Exhibit P32, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
15 Mr. Petrusic, I'm wondering, we could either take an early break
16 and then start cross-examination after the break or you could start now,
17 have another 12 to 13 minutes, and then continue after the break. What's
18 your preference?
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, General Mladic would
20 prefer to have the break now for health reasons I've been told.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as far as health reasons are concerned, at
22 this moment there's nothing on our desk which supports that apart from
23 what Mr. Mladic feels. Now, I have no problem in taking the break at
24 this very moment, but if you'd think that there is a health problem, then
25 that break should be used also to verify that to the extent possible.
1 Could you or Mr. Lukic then inform Madam Registrar whether there's
2 anything which would need medical attention because then it should be
3 done immediately and without delay.
4 We take a break and we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start the cross-examination, could I hear
9 from the -- from you, Mr. McCloskey, whether 19814, the various
10 documents, one starting at page 3, one starting at page 5, one starting
11 at page 7, whether they have been uploaded as separate documents, and
12 could you then provide the 65 ter numbers.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have not gotten that far
14 yet --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- but we will pull them out individually and get
17 them numbers.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear from you. Please report once
19 that's done, when they are uploaded and released.
20 Then, Mr. Petrusic, if the witness comes in are you ready to
21 cross-examine the witness?
22 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one thing I wanted to mention, Ms. Schmitz'
24 statement that came into evidence, it - as you'll see from looking at it,
25 it was done for the Karadzic case and the references to documents are --
1 have Karadzic 65 ter numbers.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: So we put on the last page in e-court a legend,
4 so where we have Mladic 65 ter numbers we provide those for anyone
5 reading that that wants to look to see what she's referenced. So I just
6 spoke to Mr. Lukic about that and -- so that would be helpful, but that
7 last page is an OTP product that we added on as a legend.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me see. I have in front of me a list
9 comparing the previous testimony, page numbers 40772 and 40773. Is that
10 what you are referring to? In which I find 65 ter numbers for both
11 cases. That's the one?
12 Mr. Lukic, Mr. Petrusic, no problem with that I take it?
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, sir.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Then the witness has entered the courtroom again.
16 Mr. Petrusic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
17 Ms. Schmitz, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic.
18 Mr. Petrusic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
19 Please proceed.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Schmitz, first of all, could you tell us
22 what you did before you joined Medecins Sans Frontieres?
23 A. Well, I did my examination as a general nurse in 1984 and worked
24 then in different hospitals until 1989, when I left with a German NGO
25 called Kapagnenmor [phoen] to South Sudan. There I got to know MSF and
1 so I switched to MSF and started with MSF beginning April 1991.
2 Q. From 1989 through 1995 you were involved only with work for the
4 A. No. Between missions I did also work as a nurse and I did also
5 work in the office of MSF in Bonn partly.
6 Q. When did you arrive in the area of the former Yugoslavia for the
7 first time as a nurse?
8 A. I did work in Croatia from March until June 1991 with MSF at the
9 Dalmatian coast, and then I arrived on the 6th of June, 1995, in Belgrade
10 in order to be deployed in Srebrenica.
11 Q. Before June 6th, between these two missions in Srebrenica and
12 Dalmatia, were you in any other areas in the former Bosnia -- in Bosnia
13 and Herzegovina, any other areas that were under threat?
14 A. I was not in any other areas of the former Yugoslavia. I was in
15 other countries.
16 Q. We will get to that a little later. In one of the contacts that
17 you describe as a meeting with General Mladic on the 12th of July - and
18 you will remind me if I'm mistaken - but you said that you told
19 General Mladic that you had helped Serbs in Zenica. I just want to jog
20 your memory. Is this something that you actually said and did you ever
21 go to Zenica?
22 A. Well, I haven't said it correctly like this. What I did is I
23 informed Mr. Mladic that MSF is working in other areas supporting Serbian
24 population, and I never mentioned the place Zenica. Personally I have
25 not been in any other areas of the former Yugoslavia, but colleagues.
1 Q. In paragraph 12 of your statement dated the 21st of March of this
2 year, you say that there were two kinds of personnel that was necessary
3 for the work of the MSF. Could you please tell us what personnel that
4 was, personnel of the MSF, and were there any -- was there any medical
5 staff there, local or people who worked for the Ministry of Health of the
6 former Bosnia and Herzegovina. Could you tell us something about that?
7 A. Yes. So the national MSF staff were 13 people who were employed
8 by us and getting a salary and were needed to have a running mission.
9 So, for example, a cook or a driver or a translator. Then the second
10 category of national staff was the Ministry of Health's staff. I don't
11 remember the exact figure, more than hundred medical staff employed by
12 the Ministry of Health, who did work with us together and who got some
13 incentive like hygienic products or some similar things like this. They
14 did not get a salary from us because they were not MSF staff. That's a
15 difference for us. They were supposed to receive their salary from the
16 Bosnian Ministry of Health.
17 Q. In the Srebrenica hospital, how many people of the medical staff
18 had higher education; in other words, who were doctors, surgeons, war
19 surgeons, and so on? What was the professional expertise of the staff
21 A. I -- there were five medical doctors, amongst them one surgeon,
22 Ilijaz Pilav, but I do not know the level of education because Ilijaz,
23 for example, who was the key person in the hospital, had learned most of
24 his techniques, his surgical techniques, by working together with the
25 international surgeons of MSF. So I don't know what degree of
1 specialised education he had, but certainly there were five doctors who
2 were studied medical doctors. And then there were lots of general nurses
3 and paramedical staff and helpers and cleaners and auxiliaries.
4 Q. How was the hospital equipped? What kind of equipment did they
6 A. What would you mean? Are you speaking about beds? Are you
7 speaking about an X-ray? Are you speaking about the ICU? We didn't have
8 breathing machines. There was one area which was called "ICU" but
9 certainly not as equipped as an ICU here or, for example, in DutchBat.
10 Q. Well, compared to the hospitals that you've been to throughout
11 your career since 1989, visiting various crisis areas throughout the
12 world, where would you place this hospital in terms of their
13 technological equipment and also medical supplies and medicines?
14 A. I would place the hospital on more or less the same level in any
15 other war area, like Somalia or Chechnya, where I have been working in
16 the hospital in Chechnya even in the OT. So there wasn't much equipment
17 and often it had to be improvised. In terms of medical supplies, it was
18 MSF supplying the hospital with the basics --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber wonders relevance of these
20 matters. So could you -- if it is relevant - I'm not saying it's
21 not - could you please come to your point as quickly as possible so that
22 we also understand what the relevance is.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm done.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And what is the probative value of knowing
25 comparison with other war hospitals, where we have got no knowledge about
1 so we can't even verify that? Would you please focus, first of all, on
2 the most relevant issues because spontaneously all three Judges raised
3 that same question. Please proceed.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall accept your
6 Q. At the meetings that you speak about in paragraph 13, in addition
7 to the members of the UNHCR, ICRC, UNPROFOR, et cetera - these meetings
8 were held at the post office - did you see any representatives of the
9 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, the 28th Division?
10 A. I never saw any representative in one of these meetings.
11 Q. Also you said that during the first few days of your stay in
12 Srebrenica - that is paragraph 14 - you said it was relatively calm but
13 you had the feeling that the town was an open-air prison. What did you
14 mean by that?
15 A. It meant to me that I felt that there was no freedom of movement.
16 The population had to stay in Srebrenica. It was an enclave. People
17 were not allowed simply to travel to Sarajevo. And I remember that the
18 nearby enclave Zepa, our medical doctor carried secretly an examination
19 table there, but they had to do that very secretly because they were not
20 allowed to leave the enclave.
21 Q. Do you know that these two enclaves were separated, and according
22 to the demilitarisation agreement no communication was allowed between
23 the two enclaves?
24 A. I knew that these were two separate enclaves.
25 Q. Did you know that these enclaves were supposed to be
2 A. Yes, I did know that.
3 Q. Did you know whether they had indeed been demilitarised?
4 A. I certainly don't know anything about Zepa. In Srebrenica, first
5 of all, I'm not completely clear about the definition of
6 "demilitarisation" and -- so that's the first point. The second point,
7 of course, I can imagine something about the definition. I did not know,
8 not until the last day, how many weapons there were in the enclave, how
9 many soldiers, how many fighters. That was all beyond my knowledge.
10 Q. Further on in paragraph 16 you say that the local authorities and
11 the UNHCR informed you that there was a food shortage in the enclave and
12 that people were starving.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
14 65 ter 25214.
15 Q. Please take a look at this, paragraph 1. Have you had a look?
16 A. Yes, I did, and that's probably --
17 Q. I have to say that this document dates back to four days before
18 you arrived there, but will you agree with me that this convoy includes
19 food supplies and also other supplies that were meant for keeping the
20 hygiene of the population --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, if the witness knows anything about
22 these convoys, we can ask her whether she has any -- if you want her to
23 confirm that 6 tonnes of salt, 11 tonnes of beans, that that's food, then
24 the Chamber -- the Judges of the Chamber can read and it's obvious that
25 powdered milk, beans, biscuits, that that's food. So there's no need to
1 ask the witness unless she has any personal knowledge about it, but to
2 ask her to explain to us whether this document is about food is -- well,
3 is - to say the least - superfluous, if not worse. Please proceed.
4 Do you have any personal knowledge about these convoys,
5 Ms. Schmitz?
6 THE WITNESS: My knowledge is that on 27 of June one convoy of
7 UNHCR with food did arrive in Srebrenica.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and whether that's the same as described here
9 you wouldn't know?
10 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't know that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you proceed, may I ask, Mr. Petrusic, you
13 said in page 42, lines 21 and 22, this document dates back to four days
14 before you arrived there. I see the date of this document is 20th of
15 June, 1995. The witness testified that she arrived on the 6th of June.
16 Please clarify that.
17 Ms. Schmitz.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, I arrived on 6th of June in Belgrade. I
19 arrived 24 June in Srebrenica only --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: -- because negotiations took that much time.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This is a very good clarification.
23 Mr. Petrusic.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Now that we're on the topic of humanitarian aid, do you know that
1 this humanitarian aid that arrived through the UNHCR had been abused? Do
2 you have any knowledge about that?
3 A. If it has been abused?
4 Q. Had there been any abuse as far as the distribution of
5 humanitarian aid was concerned? I mean, I seem to be leading now, but
6 I'm saying: Was all of this aid sent to the civilian population or was
7 some of it given to the military? Did you have any knowledge about that?
8 A. No, not at all. I believe UNHCR is in a much better position to
9 explain. We did not monitor the distribution, which we sometimes do in
10 other countries, but here we did not.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court
12 65 ter 1D00076.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document under this number is not available in
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 04638611 is the ERN number, so can
16 you find it that way?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the
18 speaker, Mr. Petrusic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the interpreters have difficulties in
20 hearing you, so could you please speak perhaps a bit more loudly.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The document is 04638611.
22 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that, Mr. Petrusic, 25214, the
23 document we looked at a minute ago, do you intend to tender that? If so,
24 we could deal with it right away.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I thought I'd do it at the end,
1 but I will accept that if you think it should be tendered now, then I am
2 going to tender it now.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Petrusic please
4 speak into the microphone. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And you are again invited to speak into the
6 microphone, Mr. Petrusic, by the interpreters.
7 Madam Registrar, 25214 -- no objections, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
10 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be D11, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D11 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Ms. Schmitz, please, did you know that this convoy had arrived in
15 Srebrenica on the 4th of July, 1995?
16 A. No. I would have to check again -- actually, I'm sure there was
17 a convoy 27th June and there was a convoy arriving 13th July when all the
18 population was gone. 4th July I do not remember at all, but I'm happy to
19 check once more.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, is this a different convoy or is it
21 the same?
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a different convoy, the
23 4th of July. The previous one was on the 28th of June.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So this convoy now refers to the one on the
1 Put your next question to the witness, please.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness answered
4 Q. So did you know that this convoy had arrived?
5 A. No. Did the convoy arrive in Srebrenica on the 4th? Because I
6 should have known and I know only about the one on the 27th and on the
7 13th. The NGO community in Srebrenica was very small, so the UNHCR
8 representative was living in our house. Therefore, I would be very
9 surprised if the convoy did arrive and I didn't know.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I shall tender this document. The
11 number is ...
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 1D00076.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, do I understand since the witness says
16 she doesn't know anything about this, that you asked about the convoy
17 arriving. May I then take it that you want to bar table this document?
18 Is that how we have to understand you tendering it?
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] All right. The Defence will
20 tender it that way.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then could I ask you the following. In your
22 questions you suggested that it arrived in Srebrenica, this convoy.
23 Apparently you are seeking to establish that. I tried to go through the
24 document very quickly. What I see -- it seems to be a report by an
25 infantry brigade on the 4th of July, the Zvornik Infantry Brigade - I do
1 not know from where they report this - but it's a report on passage of
2 teams and convoys. Do we know exactly from where this report was sent, I
3 mean passage where exactly? Is there anything in the report that
5 I mean, if I travel from Germany to Spain, I pass through
6 Luxembourg and France perhaps. It doesn't mean that I arrive in Spain,
7 so therefore that was suggested in your question and therefore I'm
8 wondering what exactly you think the Judges could read from this
9 document? And I would not have asked -- I would not have asked if you
10 would not have put the question to the witness whether she was aware that
11 this arrived in Srebrenica on the 4th of July.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a convoy, or rather, this
13 is a report of the Zvornik Brigade. The Zvornik Brigade at the border
14 between Serbia and Republika Srpska in a place called Karakaj had a
15 check-point, and through this check-point they allowed all convoys
16 through, those that were going to the enclaves, that is to say.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now could I just -- I'm trying to refresh my
18 own topographical memory. Karakaj is north of Zvornik; is that well
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Karakaj is a suburb of Zvornik and
21 it is to the west of Zvornik. You enter Zvornik going through Karakaj.
22 As soon as you cross the Drina River, as soon as you cross the border,
23 you enter Karakaj.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I -- it's not at Karakaj that you
25 enter the enclave of Srebrenica, isn't it? That's still at a distance.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right. But that is
2 where the check-point is for the convoys.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly what is my -- the issue I wanted to
4 raise. If you want to bar table this and if there's any suggestion that
5 crossing this check-point would mean that the convoy arrives in
6 Srebrenica, that is not supported by your explanation or our
7 understanding of this document. It says that apparently at Karakaj that
8 this convoy passed. If that is -- I'm trying to understand the probative
9 value you want to attach to this document.
10 Mr. McCloskey, any objections?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If Mr. Petrusic would agree that the -- after
12 Zvornik it still has to get the roughly 40 to 50 kilometres to Bratunac
13 and through Bratunac to get to the check-point into Srebrenica, I would
14 have no objection because then it would make some sense.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so there -- this -- there may be some probative
16 value that a convoy arrived in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina at a
17 certain point in time?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D0076 becomes Exhibit D12,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D12 is admitted into evidence.
23 Mr. Petrusic, this intervention may also serve the Defence to
24 understand that this Chamber is not interested in receiving piles of
25 paper but is primarily interested in if it receives any paperwork to
1 understand what it actually says, and perhaps you could have
2 spontaneously drawn our attention to the relevance and probative value of
3 this document. You may proceed.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one of the
5 paragraphs in the indictment refers specifically to preventing
6 humanitarian aid from reaching the enclaves, so my intention is aimed in
7 that direction.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That was clear, but you suggested in your question
9 to the witness that this arrived on the 4th of July, whereas the
10 document -- it may well have arrived, I do not know. But the document is
11 not about arrival in Srebrenica. The document is about passing a
12 check-point at certainly a considerable distance still from Srebrenica.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. In your first report which regrettably doesn't have a legible
16 date, and this is a document that the Prosecutor had put to you, you say
17 that the shelling started and went on for 45 minutes. Do you remember
18 that? That's what you said.
19 A. Yes, and I'm a hundred per cent sure that the date is the 6th of
21 Q. Do you know that this attack came from the south of the enclave;
22 that is to say, beyond the boundaries of the enclave itself?
23 A. No, I don't know the exact location the attack came from.
24 Q. Do you know that it was aimed at the military positions of the
25 28th Division?
1 A. No, I don't know.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have document
3 65 ter 19814, page 4.
4 Q. In this report that you were sending to Lieutenant Boering in the
5 Dutch Battalion, you are asking for technical assistance and you are not
6 referring to shelling at all.
7 A. Is this a question or this is -- it's a fact --
8 Q. You do not refer to the shelling at all?
9 A. No, because in that moment I did need technical assistance by
10 moving the CAPSAT down to the base -- down to the bunker, and for me it
11 was safe understanding that it was because of the shelling. So in that
12 moment I did not want to draw attention of Mr. Boering on the shelling,
13 but that we need help, technical assistance, because we didn't have a
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you are on your feet.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we don't -- we didn't have the English up so
17 I don't know what she was able to see, but I'm hoping this is now up.
18 Yes, this does appear to be closer to the Serbian.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What we have on the screen is not what the witness
20 has just been talking about. It's something new now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the previous one was a short request for
22 technical assistance. I don't know why that disappeared from our screen
23 when we were still discussing it.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure which she was looking for, but the
25 Serbian was clearly a different document and I don't know if she could
1 read that tiny print to know that she was talking about it or not.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go back to the document we had on our
3 screen a minute ago, that is a short document in which Ms. Schmitz
4 requests Mr. Boering to provide -- to provide --
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It's page 4.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have it back on our screen. The last thing
7 I think Ms. Schmitz was asking is whether -- a question was put to her
8 and she explained that she felt no need to explain that shelling may have
9 caused this request for technical assistance.
10 By the way, it is the same document used by the -- it's page 4
11 and it is in English and let me just check ... and there is a B/C/S
12 translation in e-court, so ...
13 Yes, but that's the wrong one. It's -- it is for the B/C/S. It
14 is page 1 out of 19, apparently.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I am told we do not have a B/C/S
16 for that. We did not translate all of these, only the ones that -- well,
17 mostly the ones I used.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's then -- then we have no -- we only have
19 an English version, because I see that the 75 pages in translation cover
20 only 19 pages, so that's a very selective translation.
21 Mr. Petrusic, if for the time being you can work with the English
22 version only, we would not stop you, but a B/C/S translation of course
23 should be prepared before we finally admit this document if you want to
24 tender it. But let's now go back to where we were, and that is what
25 question are you asking further in relation to this document from the
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] When sending this telegram, did
3 Ms. Schmitz have any other contact, either by phone or any other way,
4 with captain, or rather, Lieutenant Boering to do with the military
5 situation and the situation on the ground?
6 A. Well, the contact with the UNPROFOR, not necessarily Mr. Boering,
7 did take place every day in person because we had a security meeting at
8 10.00. So when I wrote this Telex I considered, of course, Mr. Boering
9 as well informed as I was about the security situation.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to page 11 of
11 this document 19814, page 11, please.
12 In the third paragraph, beginning with the words "UNHCR," it
14 "UNHCR asked ..."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: We do have B/C/S on page 4.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We have B/C/S.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The UNHCR asked the president
19 whether they should send the request for evacuation on the population and
20 he answered that it was not necessary as yet, and there were rumours
21 going around that villages were getting burnt down.
22 Q. Ms. Schmitz, could you tell us what president you're referring to
23 in this Telex message?
24 A. That was the president -- well, I do not recall anymore the exact
25 terms of positions. There was a president in Srebrenica, then there was
1 the mayor, so it was one of the key authorities in Srebrenica.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, could we move up the B/C/S
3 version which is now presented to us as the translation of the document.
4 In the English the -- it starts with:
5 "OUT.958, page 1."
6 In the B/C/S it starts with:
7 "OUT.526 ..."
8 There seems to be some similarity, but it certainly is not a
9 literal translation of the original.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's a -- just a typo of the number.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's a typo of the number. Then if that's the only
12 thing, then I'm -- that should be corrected, and that's apparently then
13 what it is.
14 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to -- may I just interrupt. Maybe we
17 might get an explanation here, too.
18 Madam Schmitz, I just want to find out from you whether this
19 document was written by you. I see the name, if this is the name, of
20 person at the bottom is "Xtina." Is that you?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's mine. So the Telex has been written by
22 me. My real name is Christine, my nickname was Christina, and sometimes
23 you can shorten it by "Xtina."
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. The president, whether he was the president of the municipality
2 or the chief of the municipality, did he have the authority, the powers,
3 to decide on the evacuation of the population?
4 A. I don't know if I can answer that question because would he have
5 the power or wouldn't -- would it be the population itself who would need
6 to decide if they want to be evacuated or not? That depends on the way
7 of deciding within a community.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any specific knowledge on
9 competence of these matters of evacuation?
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's move on, Mr. Petrusic.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. But at that point in time on the 9th of July around 1900 hours
14 when the enclave still existed, were people thinking about evacuating the
15 population according to your report?
16 A. I do not recall any discussion about seriously evacuating the
17 population because nobody also really knew what was going to happen and
18 who should have done that? But then I'm of course not aware about all
19 negotiations who went on.
20 Q. Who did you get this information from?
21 A. Again, I do not recall exactly, but since I do rely on my
22 documents and if I say it was UNHCR, then it was the national
23 representative called Elmir, and he must have told me because we
24 exchanged a lot of information.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 33 of the same
1 document, please. I believe we don't have a translation for this either.
2 Q. Madam, you are talking to Franken here, the deputy commander of
3 the DutchBat; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where you say that the objective is taking the medical stock,
6 checking for the 97 patients of the social centre, and picking up more
7 people who couldn't leave today. We find those words in paragraph 2.
8 Could you tell us what this is a reference to?
9 A. Well, given that the UNPROFOR was still in a combat situation and
10 couldn't provide us with as much drugs and medical material we actually
11 needed for the patients, he had proposed that I would go back into
12 Srebrenica with the objectives you have note -- you have listed -- you
13 have quoted, taking medical stock, checking for the 97 patients, and so
14 on. So it did not materialise until the 13th of July, when I went back
15 into Srebrenica.
16 Q. Where were you at the time?
17 A. At which time?
18 Q. Well, on the 11th of July at 2255 hours?
19 A. I was at Potocari, the UN base.
20 Q. And you sent this Telex via some other CAPSAT; correct?
21 A. Yes, I did. We did not install our CAPSAT in Potocari, but we
22 used the one of the UNMOs.
23 Q. You go on to say Commander Mladic is in Bratunac, he's offering
24 food and medicine, and he's asking the UN to organise buses for
25 evacuation. Who did you get this information from?
1 A. It was from Deputy Commander Robert Franken.
2 Q. Did Mr. Franken also convey to you that perhaps an hour earlier a
3 meeting had ended between General Mladic and Colonel Karremans and his
4 two aides?
5 A. No, I did not know at this time about this meeting.
6 Q. Did you receive any information about the deputy commander,
7 Mr. Franken, having any direct contacts with Mr. Mladic, and where did he
8 get this information from?
9 A. Oh, I did not check that with him and I didn't know his relation
10 with General Mladic. If there was a direct contact or if it was through
11 the liaison person of UN, I do not know.
12 Q. Further down in your report, the next line starts with the word
13 "UNPROFOR" and then it says:
14 "Water: 7.000 litres per day available, less than a litre per
15 person per day for the people ... inside."
16 Tell me, please, who provided this water, these 7.000 litres of
18 A. That was provided by UNPROFOR to the displaced who were inside
19 the UN building.
20 Q. And do you know that at Potocari where the refugees were, the
21 Muslim refugees, that Potocari had a water-supply system? There was a
22 town water-supply system?
23 A. Yes, I knew that but there was some rumour that the plant was not
24 functioning, but that I would have to check again in the documents. On
25 top of my head, I don't remember the exact details; however, the
1 displaced outside did not have on that day access to water except what
2 they had brought with them which was very little.
3 Q. You say that you received some medicines. Could you tell us who
4 you got this small amount of medicines from?
5 A. Well, I'm mentioning the name of Jan, he was the head of the old
6 medical team. There was the two medical -- the new medical team of UN
7 had just arrived before the bombing started, so there were two teams at
8 the time. We had very good contact with Jan, so he basically smuggled
9 some small amount he could spare to Daniel in makeshift hospital.
10 Q. Did you know that through the International Red Cross and the
11 UNHCR, medicines were being brought into Srebrenica, area of Srebrenica?
12 A. Could you please specify the time and the recipients?
13 Q. Well, the time is from the 8th of May, 1993, when the safe -- the
14 area was established and the convoys organised up until the time we're
15 discussing here. The UNHCR convoys and convoys of the
16 International Red Cross provided the necessary medicines for the
17 Srebrenica hospital -- well, we don't have to talk about the UNHCR and
18 the provisions they provided for the civilians, but did you have this
20 A. No. I mean, I should have had it because we were the ones
21 supplying the hospital and MSF has very close contact with ICRC wherever
22 we work together. So if they did provide medical material and drugs to
23 the hospital recently - speaking about this period - I would have known.
24 So I find that difficult to believe.
25 JUDGE ORIE: At least you had no knowledge.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We have before us document 65 ter 1980 -- 1814, page 35. So it's
4 the 12th of July, 1995, it is 10.21, another telegram sent by you, and I
5 assume that it was sent to Belgrade again; correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. You explain the situation and you say: I don't see any
8 dehydrated children, there are no cases of diarrhea. Apparently no one
9 was struck by a shell. There were no wounded coming in. My question:
10 When you say apparently no one was hit by a shell -- my question is, was
11 there any shelling going on?
12 A. Not on the 12th anymore.
13 Q. You also say no wounded were coming in. Where were you supposed
14 to receive these wounded? Where would you accommodate them?
15 A. There was a makeshift hospital in a corridor in the factory the
16 UN was based in, and there we were able to admit patients coming in.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, may I take you back to your last
18 question. You said to the witness: You explain the situation and you
19 say: I don't see any dehydrated children, there are no cases of
20 diarrhea. Apparently no one was struck by a shell. That is your
21 observation. That is not in the report. Is that correctly understood?
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, maybe I'm not getting the
23 right translation or interpretation, but I believe it is correct. It
24 should be -- you should find that -- well, it begins with the word: "The
25 situation outside."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I see the "dehydrated children." I see "no
2 diarrhea." But I do not see anything about --
3 THE WITNESS: It's the sentence afterwards.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look -- oh, yes, it seems I --
5 yes. It seems then apparently -- yes. Now it's -- it's clear to me now.
6 Yes, it's clear to me. Please proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, could the record reflect also.
8 Correctly, it says "I cannot see severe dehydrated children." I think
9 that's a significant different meaning than the quote we have.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is -- I take it, Mr. Petrusic, you would
11 agree that that's what the document says.
12 You may proceed.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Then you describe the situation inside and you are addressing
15 your staff in Belgrade and asking them: Tell me again what information
16 you want more and I can try to do my best to inform you. Did your staff,
17 the headquarters in Belgrade, did they actually pose some questions to
18 you and wanted some answers to be provided by you, or did you just report
19 on all of the events in those days?
20 A. No, it was not a one-way communication. I did respond -- I did
21 receive regular answers on my Telexes with comments and questions and
22 advice, but we don't -- Mr. McCloskey showed one this morning, but I --
23 we don't have them all here because I didn't rescue them all. It wasn't
24 a one-way communication. But here I wanted to signal I have strength
25 enough to get more information for you if you need, because Belgrade then
1 send it further to Belgium and Paris and they used the information, for
2 example, for a press release.
3 Q. You also say that there is no information - and that's two lines
4 below - there is no information on possibly wounded persons. Is this a
5 reference to the civilians in the compound?
6 A. It's both. It's the population in the compound and the displaced
7 population outside of the compound.
8 Q. And at the end it is -- you say: It is my impression that the UN
9 is trying to leave, and indeed you also indicate here that this is only
10 your feeling. Now, were there any other indications other than your
11 sense of it that the UN was trying to leave?
12 A. No, it was definitely my feeling. In the contact with some
13 soldiers, I felt people wanted to leave this place, which was probably
14 true as well, but I did not see them packing up or whatever. The UN
15 would have decided, probably Franken would have informed me about such a
16 crucial decision. However maybe one example comes to my mind: When the
17 two UNMOs left Srebrenica to Potocari during the days of bombing, they
18 didn't inform us, so we were a bit surprised about that.
19 Q. Let us briefly go back to the 10th of July, document 19814,
20 page 23. In the third paragraph beginning with the words "the hospital,"
21 can you see that?
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. It says:
24 "The hospital was full with armed soldiers and we don't manage to
25 get them out ... I remember Chechnya - at this stage they won't leave."
1 Tell me, please, how is it that armed soldiers were in the
3 A. Well, they did bring their wounded colleagues, some were wounded
4 themselves, and they wanted to stay with them. That was the reason why
5 they were in the hospital. I asked several times that they would leave
6 because the hospital was supposed to be a neutral zone and no uniforms
7 and no arms are supposed to be inside, but it didn't have much effect.
8 And I experienced exactly the same just a few months before in Chechnya,
9 therefore I was mentioning it.
10 Q. Can you tell us how many armed soldiers there were in the
12 A. No, I cannot. I definitely cannot. I have no idea.
13 Q. What do you mean by "a lot"? More than a hundred? Less than a
14 hundred? More than 50? Less than 50?
15 A. I would rather say maybe 20. For me already one soldier with an
16 arm in a hospital is a big problem, so 20 is really a lot.
17 Q. Why was that a problem for you? Were you afraid that the
18 hospital would become a target because of the armed members of the
19 BH Army?
20 A. Exactly, that was my fear.
21 Q. The same document but page 38, please. The time is the 12th of
22 July, 1630 hours, and you're asking Stefan whether:
23 "UNPROFOR is asking if MSF plus UNMO can go back into Srebrenica
24 to pick up the rest of the patients in the hospital (6) and the social
25 centre (10 - 20). What is your opinion?"
2 A. I'm sorry, I thought you were still reading. I'm sorry, again
3 what is the question? Because "what is your opinion," that is written in
4 the Telex and my question was post to my head of mission.
5 Q. Allow me to finish. I quoted from the document and now I started
6 putting a question to you. Madam, which six patients are they? Were
7 these military patients - if we can call them that? Were they civilian
8 patients, the rest of the patients from the hospital?
9 A. Well, I did go back to the hospital on the 13th of July in the
10 afternoon and then I found three elderly --
11 Q. Madam, I do apologise for interrupting. You will have an
12 opportunity of answering about the 13th, but I am interested in the 12th
13 of July and this Telex. I really do apologise for interrupting you, but
14 did you know then who these patients were?
15 A. I did know that on the 11th of July we left behind a few elderly
16 patients. I wasn't aware that there were six and I wasn't aware of any
17 young men, soldiers, or whatever who were left behind.
18 Q. Can we therefore conclude that these were elderly civilians
19 conditionally speaking?
20 A. Possibly. Here the information does come from UNPROFOR and maybe
21 UNPROFOR did have a different information than what I have, but I suppose
22 these were elderly patients.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Page 40, please, of this same
25 Q. After exchanging greetings with Stefan in the first sentence, you
2 "UN starting with the evacuation of the wounded with trucks to
4 Tell me, is this your direct knowledge or did you receive this
5 information from someone else?
6 A. That information I got from my colleague, Daniel, who was mainly
7 occupied with the care of the patients.
8 Q. So this information that follows, namely how they would be
9 transported, that is something you also heard from your colleague; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Towards the very end of this dispatch -- this telegram, rather,
12 you mention deportation, as you call it, for the very first time. You
14 "One-quarter of the refugees outside have been deported to
15 Kladanj ..."
16 Who did you receive this information from?
17 A. That was my judgement from seeing the situation outside. I had
18 assessed approximately 20.000 in the evening of the 11th of July, and so
19 I judged that approximately one-quarter were not there anymore.
20 Q. During your testimony you've been using the term "deportation."
21 This is almost exclusively a legal term I should say. You have no legal
22 training; you're not a lawyer yourself. Can you tell us why it is that
23 you use this term, this notion?
24 A. From my understanding - although I'm not a legal person -
25 "deportation" is the evacuation under force. So therefore I used
2 Q. Are you aware of the content there, since you said that this
3 involves the use of force? Do you know the meeting that was held on the
4 evening of the 11th of July around 10.00 p.m. between General Mladic and
5 the commander of the Dutch Battalion, Karremans?
6 A. You did ask me before. No, I was not aware about this meeting.
7 I heard it last time in March when I was here testifying, but I wasn't
8 aware then about that meeting and the outcome.
9 Q. And when you testified in March, did you hear that
10 Colonel Karremans had suggested that the refugee issue be resolved that
11 way? The decision was made in accordance with what his superiors also
12 had to say that the refugees, the refugee population, leave the enclave?
13 A. No, I didn't know and I didn't hear it then either.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, if you refer to an earlier testimony
15 and then asked what the witness heard there, what you're interested in is
16 what the witness knows and what the witness observed, nothing else.
17 And in that respect, I would like to ask you one question in
18 relation to this document. You said one-quarter of the refugees outside
19 have been deported and you explained to us what you understand when you
20 use the word "deportation." At the same time you told us that you had
21 observed 20.000 people being there and one-quarter not being there
22 anymore. Did you personally observe under what circumstances they left?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I did -- I mean, most of my time in
24 the day -- or I don't even know, maybe 60 per cent of the time I spent
25 outside the UN compound and I checked for patients and I observed the
1 situation. And so I did observe that people were being put on buses,
2 trucks, and it is true that people wanted to leave. So that sounds like
3 a contradiction but it wasn't a contradiction because in the first place
4 people were in a situation they had been forced into, and of course they
5 wanted to leave Potocari but they had not wanted to leave Srebrenica.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What force did you see to be exercised upon
7 those who were boarding the buses?
8 THE WITNESS: I did not see physical force. There were chains of
9 BSA soldiers along the buses where the people had to walk along and they
10 were being shown in which bus to get in.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic, although I would like to take a
13 break within the next couple of minutes. So if you find a suitable
14 moment, either here or after one or more questions, please let us know.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly. Let me finish with
16 this document.
17 Q. Now that you mentioned that there were chains there, are you
18 referring to physical barriers? I don't really understand this. What
19 were these chains all about?
20 A. If I speak about chains here, then I mean a human chain, that
21 soldiers were standing there and the displaced walked along them into the
23 Q. At the end of this document you say:
24 "35 men were being guarded in one house and treated well."
25 Did you personally have this information or, yet again, did you
1 receive it from your colleague or someone else?
2 A. No, I -- when I heard information about that house, I went to
3 Franken and Franken said that they were being treated well, deputy
4 commander of the UNPROFOR.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we take the
6 break now?
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take the break now --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just one clarification. In the document I can
11 read they were guarded in one house. What kind of house was it?
12 THE WITNESS: It was a normal one-family house.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Located where?
14 THE WITNESS: It's -- you can see it on the sketch --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, can you just describe it briefly.
16 THE WITNESS: It's -- on the other side, then the UN factory. On
17 the other side, a bit south.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
20 We'll have a break and we would like to see you back in half an hour.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, Mr. Petrusic, are you on track as far as
23 time is concerned?
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think so.
25 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need after the break?
1 You've used until now in total it was one and a half hours since the
2 cross-examination started, a little bit less. Would that mean that a
3 half an hour, a little bit over half an hour after the break would do?
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps a bit more, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 40 minutes, would that do?
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then there will remain sufficient time for
8 re-examination, if there is any need to re-examine the witness.
9 We take a break and we'll resume at quarter to 1.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 Mr. Groome, would you have new information about P18?
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I can address that, but I think
16 it may take a bit longer than the time it takes for the witness --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's rather wait until we have concluded the
18 testimony of this witness.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Could we please have 19814, page 41.
23 Q. This is a document that you sent. The date is the 12th of July.
24 The time is 2010 [as interpreted], and in the second sentence:
25 "Of course everybody wants to leave and Daniel feels very bad
1 about selecting which I did not quite understand [as interpreted]."
2 Can you tell me, Madam, what kind of selection this is all about?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Petrusic, I have a problem. I see a
4 different language in the fourth line of the document.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The sentence is the second one
6 from the beginning of the document, that is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think we found it. Please proceed.
8 THE WITNESS: So may I repeat what I understood what concerns the
9 question? You are asking what the selection was about .
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I think Mr. Petrusic is using a
12 translation which does not conform with the document. In fact, it was --
13 my understanding was the opposite of what the document said. And so as
14 she hears the question, it's a bit confusing.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know whether Mr. Petrusic is using a
17 First of all, is there a translation in e-court for this page?
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes -- we don't have an
19 official one.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, we heard that she -- this statement
21 said "which I do not understand," and of course the document says "I can
22 perfectly understand." So that's what I wanted to get to the bottom of.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's read the line on which questions will be
24 put to you reads as follows:
25 "Of course everyone wants to leave and Daniel feels very bad
1 about selecting which I can perfectly understand."
2 That's the line Mr. Petrusic is addressing.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, obviously my mistake. I
5 apologise to the witness and to the Trial Chamber.
6 Q. Madam, can you tell me what kind of selection this was? The time
7 is 2110.
8 A. I have it in front of me. It was basically selecting the
9 patients who were supposed to go with the first medical convoy out of
10 Srebrenica. So not all of the patients were able to go due to space, and
11 so difficult to say: You can go and you cannot go. That was like -- I
12 understand Daniel that that was very difficult for him.
13 Q. Who was it who carried out this selection, the medical staff?
14 A. It was Daniel as a medical doctor.
15 Q. Further on in the next paragraph you say that you briefly spoke
16 to Mladic and you say that you requested that you could pick up the sick
17 and you say he agreed. This report of yours, does it correspond to the
18 actual situation as it was on the 12th of July?
19 A. Yes, it does.
20 Q. Further on you say:
21 "BSA is shooting in the air."
22 Do you know what the reasons were for the BSA to be shooting in
23 the air?
24 A. No, I don't know the reason.
25 Q. Would you agree with me if I were to say to you that that is the
1 way in which people celebrate victories in that part of the world? Also
2 on the occasion of religious holidays as well there is this kind of
3 gun-fire, and that is precisely the 12th of July. Among the Serb people
4 this is one of the major religious holidays. It's called
5 St. Peter's Day. Would you agree with me --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
8 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreter did not hear the end of your
9 sentence, Mr. Petrusic.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Would you agree with me that that is why people opened gun-fire,
12 and on that day it was a religious holiday, St. Peter's Day?
13 A. Well, I would not agree with you on the point that that was the
14 reason for the shooting because I just didn't know and I wasn't also
15 aware that there was a religious holiday on that day. So I don't know
16 the reason for shooting into the air.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the witness is not here to be taught
18 about what may be possible explanations of what she observed. The
19 witness is here to tell us what she observed. If a witness says, when
20 asked, I don't know the reasons why, then we move on even if you might
21 have in the back of your mind an explanation for that. And you can raise
22 that matter with another witness who might be more knowledgeable about
23 it. You can raise the matter in oral argument at a later stage, but it's
24 of no use then to explain to the witness what the possible explanation is
25 and then ask the witness whether the witness agrees. That is not the way
1 of proceeding. Therefore, put your next question to the witness, please.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Further on you say in your report that there are two water trucks
4 from Bratunac, and if the translation is right you say that people have
5 enough clean water and you say that there are no queues. Did you observe
6 that personally --
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. -- or did you hear about that from someone?
9 A. I apologise for interrupting. Yes, I did observe that myself and
10 I tried the water myself.
11 Q. Did you see for yourself that there was enough food too? You
12 refer to that in your next sentence.
13 A. Yeah, I observed myself that people had brought small amounts of
14 food with them, so I did not have the feeling on the spot that people
15 were starving and hungry.
16 Q. Did you know that during that day, the 12th of July, food aid had
17 started arriving from Bratunac, primarily bread and so on and so forth?
18 Did you know about this, just that?
19 A. I knew that some food had arrived, but I didn't know the
20 quantities and I didn't know how it was being distributed to whom.
21 Q. When you say further on that there are a few nurses from Bratunac
22 outside, are these nurses from the hospital in Bratunac?
23 A. I don't know. And I personally did not speak to any of them nor
24 they spoke to me.
25 Q. Do you know what it was that they were doing there?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Page 42 on the same document, please. This is a document of
3 13th July. The hour is 2100 -- at 1.52, and it says: We moved 33
4 patients who had to return from -- who had to come back from Bratunac,
5 nobody knows the reason. Now, where did you receive the news from?
6 A. I don't remember who woke me up, it must have been somebody from
7 the UN, because I was sleeping. And so I went to the makeshift hospital
8 and received the patients and prepared some kind of bedding and so on.
9 Q. And you learned from Karremans and Franken personally that they,
10 and I quote: "They are sure that the BSA cannot enter. They are very
11 sure that none of the men was killed." Did they tell you that?
12 A. Yes, they did, but I have to admit that having been reading this
13 in the recent days it doesn't really make sense to me because BSA had
14 entered already the enclave. So not quite sure why I wrote it like this.
15 I can't say.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- it may be a translation issue, but I read in
17 English the literal line:
18 "They are very sure that nobody of the men gets killed,"
19 et cetera.
20 That is what it literally says. Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Yes. At this time on the 13th of July you were in the Potocari
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could we have page 43, please, the same document.
1 Please take a look at paragraph 1.
2 "UNHCR convoy with 20.000 combat rations, and then 15.000 litres
3 of water, 36.000 litres of diesel fuel ... arriving this afternoon.
4 Mladic assured us that the convoy would be acceptable so there should be
5 no problem at the Yellow Bridge."
6 Tell us, please, who did you receive this information from or is
7 this something that you learned yourself?
8 A. No. As I wrote above, I'm just copying the info of UNMO. I had
9 seen or I was given - I don't know anymore - I had seen that information
10 from UNMO which they had sent to their superiors, and so I did copy that
11 and send it to my superiors in Belgrade.
12 Q. You did not verify that further? You didn't try to verify it?
13 A. Well, the convoy did arrive. I did not verify what exactly was
14 on it, but the convoy of UNHCR did arrive in Potocari, for sure, in that
16 Q. Then in paragraph 2 it says:
17 "The UN medical convoy with our patients is moving towards Tuzla
18 with a special escort of BSA personnel with personal instructions from
19 Mladic personally [as interpreted]."
20 So this information, too, was conveyed and that was information
21 from UNMO?
22 A. Yes, it's until -- I'm writing -- until I write "voila Stef,"
23 that is the whole info from the UNMO.
24 Q. So you had reason to believe the information that you were
25 receiving from UN observers; correct?
1 A. Well, if you go further down then I'm writing:
2 "This is UNMO saying and sending out.
3 "Maybe the figure of the refugees still here is a bit high."
4 But then I'm not referring anymore to that Telex.
5 Q. Yes, and then in paragraph 4 you also refer to this source, the
6 same source, the UNMO. And you say that he, Mladic, also asked the
7 UNPROFOR commander to contact the BiH and inform them that it was not the
8 intention of the General to kill anymore soldiers, BH soldiers. They
9 only have to surrender and hand their weapons in. Do you know that this
10 was a position that was also stated at one of the meetings, the second
11 meeting, between representatives of -- with the representatives of the
12 DutchBat and civilians in Bratunac?
13 A. No, no, I don't know that.
14 Q. All right. Let's move on to page 55, please. When you say:
15 "Andrei in Bratunac wants to evacuate patients by helicopter to
16 Sarajevo. He needs an extensive list with all data which will take more
17 than two hours to compile."
18 Now, tell me, who can decide on the evacuation of patients?
19 A. Well, I think the decision -- the different decisions which were
20 being taken in these different days were co-ordinated among the different
21 NGOs, among the different UNPROFOR members. I don't know exactly who all
22 were involved. At a certain time I believe there were seven institutions
23 who had wanted to evacuate the patients. So if you refer to this
24 paragraph and if you ask me if Andrei was in the position to decide to
25 evacuate the patients by helicopter to Sarajevo, I just don't know.
1 Q. Then you say:
2 "Franken just informed me that among the wounded in Bratunac
3 there are several BH soldiers with a good record from the past."
4 Did Mr. Franken explain to you what kind of records these were,
5 past records, of the BH soldiers?
6 A. No, he did not otherwise I would have noted it down.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Schmitz, may I ask you, a quote was read to you
8 but in English there was more than what you did write down. The report
10 "He needs an extensive list with all data which will take more
11 than two hours."
12 Did you intend to write that it would take more than two hours to
13 compile such a list or was it a reference to anything else that would
14 take more than two hours?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, in fact I do not remember anymore if -- or
16 let me say differently: I do not remember anymore - and I think it was
17 not that he wanted to evacuate the patients in Potocari, but the ones in
19 JUDGE ORIE: But my question was about the two hours, what would
20 take two hours, to compile the list or anything else?
21 THE WITNESS: To compile the list.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because that's not in the English version but
23 we do understand now --
24 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- that that's what you intended to write.
1 No need to apologise.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have one additional question. Can you tell me
3 who is Andrei?
4 THE WITNESS: He was the anesthetist of the UNPROFOR. There was
5 also an UNMO called Andrei, but this very Andrei was the anesthetist from
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Franken also told you that Mladic was not there, or rather, that
10 he would not come until the problem is resolved.
11 A. I'm sorry. What is the question?
12 Q. Did Franken relate this to you?
13 A. Yes, he did.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter 04469,
16 Q. In paragraph 1 of this document in the third line it says --
17 actually, the third sentence:
18 "The wounded had to be checked before they would be transported.
19 UNMOs and an ICRC representative should be present during the check and
20 they were. The check was very polite and nothing that could scare the
21 refugees happened. The BSA officers," that's the Army of Bosnian Serbs,
22 "even left their weapons behind during this check."
23 Madam, we don't see your name appearing in this document, so let
24 me ask you: Did -- are you the one who drafted this document?
25 A. For sure not. I don't even know and I cannot see immediately who
2 Q. It is signed with "Team A," dated the 17th of July, so I would
3 like to know: Do you know what that is a reference to? Who is team A?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could she be given a chance to see the whole
6 document. We only have part on the screen and maybe it will help her
7 figure it out. If we see it says "sitrep" at the top.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps also page 2 of the document which
9 gives the reference too.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know hundred per cent. I can only
11 imagine that it was from DutchBat, and I did not know the division of the
12 different teams, so whatever the A team means, I don't know.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. But are you aware, did you know about this situation with the
15 wounded, as described in this document?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, then you should give the witness an
17 opportunity to read what is on the document and -- of course we ask
18 ourselves -- we'd like to know what the witness can tell us, whether that
19 fully corresponds with this document, yes or no, may not be -- well, it
20 may be relevant, it may be irrelevant, but at least then we also could
21 compare the content. Are you exclusively dealing with paragraph 1 of the
22 document, where you are seeking an answer of the witness?
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am going to be dealing with the
24 entire document, but at this point I'm just asking about paragraph 1.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we first give an opportunity to the witness to
1 read the first paragraph.
2 Would you please, Ms. Schmitz, read paragraph 1 starting with:
3 "This morning the UNMO team and DCO of DutchBat ..."
4 Can you read it or?
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please tell us when you are finished.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm [indiscernible] reading.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now please formulate a precise question,
9 Mr. Petrusic, because the first paragraph, of course, does not only deal
10 with the patients.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Well, I'm just interested in the situation with the patients.
13 Are you aware -- did you know of this, where it said the wounded had to
14 be checked before they would be transported and the portion ending with
15 the BSA even left their weapons behind during the check?
16 A. I was aware about the checking and the different discussions.
17 Initially they were supposed to be checked individually in a tent, but in
18 the end we ended up in the hospital all together. So I was present and
19 Nikolic as well. About the weapons, I do not remember. I do not recall
20 if they had the weapons on them or not, and besides Major Nikolic - I
21 don't know if that's the correct title - I also don't remember if there
22 were more BSA representatives. But I do remember very well the checking
23 being guarded by the blue -- the special blue helmets.
24 Q. Paragraph 2 beginning with:
25 "Around 1745 hours the wounded were transported to Bratunac and
1 seven men, wounded men, were taken to the hospital ..."
2 Do you know how these wounded were treated?
3 A. I do know that these seven young men were chosen in Potocari not
4 being allowed to be evacuated by ICRC further than Bratunac. They had to
5 stay in the Dom Zdravlja in Bratunac.
6 Q. Do you know anything about this situation, that the UNMO team
7 escorted these seven wounded men and made sure that they were treated
9 A. I do know that they were transported from Potocari with a UN
10 vehicle. I don't remember if it was accompanied by UNMO, but they were
11 transported in a UN vehicle from Potocari to Bratunac. I don't know how
12 well they were treated.
13 Q. We have another 65 ter document 04471.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you intend to tender the previous document,
15 Mr. Petrusic?
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04469 becomes Exhibit D13, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D13 admitted into evidence.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Ms. Schmitz, would you please take a look at paragraph 2 of this
24 document dated 18th July 1995.
25 A. Yeah, I have seen paragraph 2.
1 Q. Do you know anything about this yourself?
2 A. I knew that there were patients in Bratunac from Srebrenica.
3 Difficults -- were often difficult to have really exact -- I heard about
4 the war criminal and I knew that ICRC was allowed to have access, and I
5 believe here the Dutch surgeon - maybe that is mistaken or I am mistaken
6 and mix it up with the Dutch anesthetist. Anyway, a Dutch medical doctor
7 was still there with the patients. I knew that as well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, unnecessary, I take it, to remind you
9 that you've still got seven minutes left.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
12 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objection.
13 Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04471 becomes Exhibit D14, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And finally, Madam, the 55 wounded - and if I'm mistaken in the
19 number please let me know - but were all 55 of them evacuated from the
21 A. On the 17th of July, yes.
22 Q. I just have a few short questions left. Now, when you went to
23 Srebrenica on the 24th of June, when you arrived there, did you go
24 through the town itself?
25 A. Yes, but only through the main centre because we weren't supposed
1 to move much and we didn't have much time either.
2 Q. And that down-town area, the small centre, that was a very small
3 area perhaps as large as this courtroom or maybe a bit bigger. And there
4 were refugees milling about in this area, in the centre itself, on the
5 10th of July moving towards the --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what company in
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name of the company you
9 just mentioned in Srebrenica.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. That is the Bravo Company. They had their compound in
13 A. Well, on the 10th of July, quite a number of population assembled
14 around the hospital and the medical staff came to us in our bunker and
15 asked for help. Of course it was not possible that they all slept at
16 that place, and so the authorities of Srebrenica convinced the people to
17 either stay at the hospital compound and sleep somewhere there or go back
18 to their houses. I'm not aware that somebody did go to Bravo Company but
19 it could be possible, and I'm not aware that in that evening people left
20 for Potocari, but again it also could be possible.
21 Q. Madam, my question, or rather, I'm putting it to you that from
22 the southern part of the enclave through this narrow street in the centre
23 of the town there were columns of people moving towards -- to get out of
24 Srebrenica. In order to get out of Srebrenica, did they have to take
25 this street, this main street?
1 A. Yes, they did and that happened on the 11th of July.
2 Q. And I put it to you that where it -- where the shells -- had the
3 shells been falling in such a small restricted area as you describe it,
4 there would have been thousands of casualties; would you agree?
5 JUDGE ORIE: You're seeking an opinion of the witness and not to
6 agree with any fact you put to her. We are focusing not on logic but on
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You said that hundreds of shells landed in this area; is that
11 A. I did say that there was constant shelling on that day of 11th
12 and that it was relatively close to the street people used to walk down
13 to Potocari. The shells did not hit the people. The people kept to the
14 road, and so during that flight the -- shells did not hit people.
15 Q. Were you in Srebrenica on the 13th? Did you go through the town
17 A. Yes, I did. On 13th I asked a Serbian escort and one of the
18 UNMOs, and we did go back because I knew that there had been patients
19 left in the hospital and in the social centre so we did pick them up.
20 Q. Can you tell us whether you observed anything while moving
21 through the town. Did you see any damages?
22 A. It was relatively empty, the town. I did see people looting and
23 going with different transport possibilities, like a wheelbarrow or
24 whatever down to Bratunac. There were BSA soldiers present, but nothing
25 more than that. But then it was a short exercise. The Serbian escort
1 was very nervous so we had to be very fast.
2 Q. You didn't see any dead people on the streets?
3 A. I did not. I had heard this much later, but myself, I did not
4 see dead bodies laying. But then I have also to say I was driving
5 myself, so I concentrated on driving and on the road.
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
7 Your Honour. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
9 Mr. McCloskey, any need to re-examine the witness?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, briefly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, but perhaps I would like to ask
12 one very short question directly in relation to the statement.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE ORIE: I read to you paragraph 44, the relevant portion.
15 It is about the confrontation with Mladic. I read to you:
16 "I spoke to MSF Belgrade about this," and that was about the plan
17 to evacuate the sick and the wounded Muslims. So:
18 "I spoke to MSF Belgrade about this and was advised to introduce
19 myself to Mladic and to voice my objections to the proposal."
20 And then the next line reads:
21 "I objected to this because the patients were my responsibility
22 and I did not think ..."
23 May I take it that where you say "I objected to this," that you
24 did not object to the proposal but rather to the plans, the plans being
25 evacuation. The proposal immediately preceding is that you would
1 introduce yourself to Mladic and to voice your objections; I take it that
2 that proposal, you agreed with that?
3 A. Immediately, yes, yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The language is not perfectly clear here. Thank you
5 for that answer.
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have 65 ter number 14441.
8 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
9 Q. And this is on the topic of the -- we saw a Zvornik Brigade
10 document that referred to a convoy heading towards the direction of
11 Srebrenica on the 4th of July, and I want to show you what is a report
12 from the 28th Division of the Bosnian Muslim army on the 5th of July.
13 And just briefly want -- I don't need to get into the part about "the
14 aggressor," which is what they refer to the Bosnian Serb Army as. But
15 just get down to the bottom of the humanitarian situation --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, is it true that the 65 ter number you
17 mentioned, that meanwhile the document was admitted into evidence or is
18 that one of the documents without translation? Is it the same document?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a new document that I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, the one you referred to earlier. I'm just
21 trying to find my --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is the first time I've referred to this
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Then I may have misunderstood you. You
25 introduced -- you started by saying about the -- let me see --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think I see the -- I
2 referred to the Zvornik Brigade document --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the one --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: But in order to save time I've just skipped over
5 that and --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. But if there is a P or a D number to
7 it, then I can do it myself and that will not --
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was D12.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D12. Thank you.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Just to look and see what the Bosnian army said on this topic on
13 the 5th --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrusic.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection raised by
16 the Defence. The witness said that she didn't know anything about this
17 document, about UNHCR convoys; and therefore, there is no basis for
18 introducing a new document by the Prosecution now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you nevertheless wanted this document to be
20 admitted into evidence, isn't it, the previous one, D12? So if you --
21 even where the witness was not able to say anything about it, you raised
22 the matter, you tendered the document, it was admitted. Under those
23 circumstances, the Prosecution may address this matter in re-examination.
24 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Yes, as I recall you said you needed to check on the UNHCR,
2 whether or not there was a convoy that day, that you did not recall one
3 or something to that effect. And I just want to show you the Muslim
4 recording of -- on the 5th, and it says:
5 "A UNHCR convoy yesterday brought 1 kilogramme of flour per
6 person ..."
7 Were you aware of the -- does this help you refresh any
8 recollection or help the situation at all?
9 A. No, it does -- I mean, I never heard about this convoy, and even
10 if I read that it -- of course it's possible that it did happen, and this
11 one confirms that it happened. But here, if you write that 40.000 kilo
12 of flour did come in, that's a very small amount. Certainly it doesn't
13 correspond with what was being said earlier, so that might have slipped
14 my knowledge. Anyway, no, I don't know about that.
15 Q. Well, that's my next question. It says:
16 "1 kilogramme of flour per person ...," and then it says, "which
17 is an extremely modest amount and can alleviate hunger for only a day or
19 Do you agree with that, is that a modest amount that can
20 alleviate hunger for only a day or two?
21 A. Yes, I think everybody can.
22 Q. And then it goes on to say:
23 "We request that constant efforts be made to deblock the
24 humanitarian corridor to Srebrenica ..."
25 Does that fit with your understanding that there was a blockage
1 of the humanitarian corridor to Srebrenica?
2 A. Yes, definitely.
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14441 becomes Exhibit D33 [sic],
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P --
10 THE REGISTRAR: P33, Your Honours, I apologise.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P33 is admitted into evidence.
12 Any further questions?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. I would like to go back to a couple of the Telexes where you were
15 questioned by Mr. Petrusic, 65 ter 19814, in this case page 41. This, I
16 believe, is where you make a reference to men in a house and -- I'm
17 sorry, one moment. Yes, in the middle of the document we see that you
19 "All men have to registrate in a house where a part are being
20 kept, BSA is shooting in the air."
21 First of all, what house? Is this a house you've spoken of
22 before that these men are being kept? Do you know what -- do you
23 remember what house you're referring to.
24 A. Yes, it's the house on the sketch.
25 Q. Okay. We'll -- I think we'll clarify that in a minute. And what
1 did you mean by "all men have to registrate" in a house?
2 A. Maybe the English is not correct, register. But again, the fact
3 that men had to register was an information I got from the UN. It's
4 something which I did not observe myself and I have never been in that
5 house myself for security reasons.
6 Q. And when you say "UN," UNMO, UNPROFOR, someone else?
7 A. Probably Franken because he was the key information source for
8 me, but I don't remember exactly.
9 Q. And what do you mean by "register"?
10 A. Noting down name, address, date of birth.
11 Q. Were you --
12 A. But that's an assumption of myself.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever see any such list of any men?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. All right.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence. I believe from
17 my discussions that Mr. Petrusic was going to offer these as well but he
18 had the same problem I had initially so I'm not sure.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we'll have to briefly discuss how to
20 deal with untranslated documents, et cetera, once we have concluded the
21 testimony of this witness.
22 Any further questions? I'm also looking at the clock,
23 Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just a couple more brief --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Keep it very brief, please.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, sir.
2 Q. You mentioned at page 42 in one of the Telexes that the women
3 were continuing delivering. Can you just clarify what you meant when you
4 said up to four in 24 hours?
5 A. No -- we did have seven deliveries during this period, and I
6 believe that it was mainly the stress of the flight and the situation
7 which let women earlier deliver. So they delivered without any privacy
8 in this makeshift hospital in the UN compound. Other people were
9 watching, not much hygiene.
10 Q. And you're talking babies?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Also on page 43 there was a mention when Mr. Petrusic was
13 asking you about something General Mladic was saying, he also mentioned
14 that there were many bodies of BiH soldiers in the Bandera Triangle. Can
15 you tell us, have you heard of this Bandera Triangle?
16 A. No, I never heard that before.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. And that's the part of the fax or the Telex of UNMO, so ...
19 Q. All right. And there was also on 65 ter 4469 on one of the
20 sitreps a reference to a Major Nikolic. Now, we saw a reference in
21 the -- in D12 to a Borislav Nikolic. Can you tell us who this
22 Major Nikolic was, if you know?
23 A. He was from Bratunac and had been a few times in Potocari. He
24 was present when the patients were being checked on the 17th. He was in
25 one of the meetings -- one minute - on the 15th of July, on the 17th of
1 July, here I'm calling him Commander Nikolic.
2 Q. So --
3 A. I didn't know his surname.
4 Q. Do you know what organisation he was a part of?
5 A. I believe he belonged to the BSA.
6 Q. Okay. And lastly, if we could have the sketch up on the board
7 just to circle that house you were talking about. It's P28. Will she be
8 allowed to work on a document she's already done or should we start with
9 the original? I don't know. Whatever is easiest.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all -- but I see only one house on
11 the document which is clearly recognisable as a house.
12 Is that the house?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, that works.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 No further questions?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Is that the house that Judge Fluegge was asking you about as
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Petrusic, any need for further questions? No need for
1 further questions.
2 This means, Ms. Schmitz, that this concludes your testimony in
3 this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
4 for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties
5 and by the Judges. You'll now be escorted out of the courtroom by the
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I will very briefly deal with a few other matters.
9 First on the 9th of July, 2012, the Defence has filed a motion
10 seeking the postponement of Witness Dannatt's testimony for 90 days.
11 Considering that Witness Dannatt's testimony has been postponed and he's
12 currently not scheduled to testify, the Chamber declares the Defence
13 motion moot at this moment.
14 Mr. Groome, at a later moment we'll hear from you further
15 submissions on P18, which as you said would take a bit more time.
16 Mr. McCloskey, associated exhibits, I think we've dealt with all
17 of them so there's no need to have a special category of associated
18 exhibits. What I would like the parties to do - and that is both for
19 you, Mr. McCloskey, and for you, Mr. Petrusic - is that you make a short
20 list in which you give the 65 ter numbers as now newly uploaded, the
21 separate documents of this 75-page document. For you, Mr. Petrusic, in
22 which you list and perhaps extract from that same document all those
23 pages of reports, documents you would like to tender, upload them,
24 release them, and then make a list also with the 65 ter numbers or the
25 doc identification numbers. You give that to Madam Registrar. She will
1 provisionally assign numbers to those documents, although some of them
2 may not be ready yet to be admitted because translation is not yet there.
3 And, Mr. Petrusic, it's an urgent matter for you then to seek those new
4 documents to be translated. Are my instructions clear?
5 If so, then we will adjourn for the day, and we will resume
6 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 18th of July at 9.00 in the morning in this same
7 courtroom, I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
10 July, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.