1 Friday, 20 July 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
11 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution calls Mr. Koster
12 to the stand, and may I introduce the Chamber to Mr. Rupert Elderkin who
13 will examine this witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rupert --
15 MR. GROOME: Elderkin.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Yes, Mr. Elderkin.
17 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. GROOME: Oh, I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, please.
22 MR. GROOME: While we're waiting for the witness, could I make
23 one short proposal with respect to the Srebrenica trial video and that's
24 65 ter 26123. The proposal is the following. Because of the length of
25 this video it's actually in four parts, and I'm concerned that unless we
1 identify which part the particular excerpt is that's being played, that
2 there may be confusion because each part time code starts once again at
3 0. If the Chamber were to look at the surrogate sheet 426123, the four
4 ERN numbers for each part are listed and they are listed in the order
5 that of -- of the video, so the Prosecution would submit or suggest that
6 with respect to ERN ending 14, that that's part 1; that part 2 be the ERN
7 ending in the number 35; part 3 the ERN ending in 16; and part 4 the ERN
8 ending in 67. And this way whoever is using the video, if they simply
9 say the part it, will be clear which video is being used, and Ms. Stewart
10 will upload a different surrogate sheet to reflect this. Thank you,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you at a later moment, Mr. Lukic.
13 Have you discussed this with Mr. Lukic before?
14 MR. GROOME: I didn't, Your Honour. To me it seemed to be -- to
15 make practical sense, I didn't think it would be, in light of --
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: If it's purely practical, we would like to hear you.
18 I apologise to you, Mr. Koster, I take it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
21 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration, the text of which is
22 handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you to make that
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 [In English] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
1 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Koster. Please be seated.
3 Mr. Koster, first a preliminary question, in which language would you
4 like to give your testimony?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to make my statement in
6 Dutch, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I take it that Dutch interpreters are
8 there. I see that there is a Dutch booth as well at this moment. Since
9 English and French are the official languages of this Tribunal, the
10 language -- the questions will be put either in these languages or in
11 B/C/S; you may answer the questions in Dutch.
12 Mr. Elderkin, are you ready to examine the witness?
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning. Yes, I
14 am ready.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Koster, you'll first be examined by Mr. Elderkin.
17 Mr. Elderkin is counsel for the Prosecution.
18 You may proceed.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 WITNESS: EELCO KOSTER
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
23 Q. Good morning to you, Colonel.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. First, could you please say your first and last name.
1 A. My first name is Eelco, my surname is Koster.
2 Q. Colonel Koster, do you recall being interviewed and providing a
3 witness statement to the ICTY on the 25th and 26th of September of 1995?
4 A. Yes, I remember that.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask please to see 65 ter 28314 on the screen.
6 Q. Colonel, this should be your statement coming up on the screen in
7 front of you. I'd ask please if we could just see the Dutch first. We
8 have three languages for this statement, so I'll show you the English and
9 B/C/S afterwards. I don't have a screen on yet, so I need to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for the Dutch version. We have it on our
12 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
13 Q. Colonel Koster, is the statement in front of you on the screen
14 the statement that you made in September of 1995?
15 A. Yes, that's the statement.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Please could we see the last page of that
18 Q. Colonel, looking at that final page of the statement, is that
19 your signature on the page?
20 A. Yes, that's my signature. Thank you.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: And could I also ask that we could be shown the
22 English and B/C/S briefly for those reading in those languages.
23 Q. Meanwhile, Colonel Koster, have you had the opportunity to read
24 the statement in the last few days?
25 A. Yes, I've had that opportunity.
1 Q. And does the statement truthfully and accurately reflect your
2 answers during that interview?
3 A. Yes, they accurately reflect that.
4 Q. And do they truthfully reflect that, those answers as well?
5 A. Yes, it's also truthful.
6 Q. Would you give the same answers and provide the same information
7 if you were examined here today and asked the same questions?
8 A. Yes, as far as I can remember them properly, and otherwise I
9 would refer to my statement.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd request the admission of the
11 witness's statement, 65 ter 28314, as his Rule 92 ter statement.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, you're the one in charge? Oh, Mr. Petrusic, yes.
14 I'm sorry. You changed places and -- no objections?
15 Madam Registrar, the number would be ... ?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28314 becomes Exhibit P57, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P57 is admitted into evidence.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: With Your Honour's permission, I'd now like to
20 read a short summary of the witness's evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Have you explained to Mr. Koster what the purpose of
22 this is?
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Indeed. I'll do so again to be clear --
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you have then we don't have to do it again. I
25 just wanted to know.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: Yes, I did.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: In 1995, Eelco Koster was a Dutch army lieutenant
4 who served as a DutchBat's logistics officer in the Srebrenica enclave.
5 On his arrival in January 1995, Koster was informed that there were
6 already logistical shortages including fuel and rations. During the
7 following months DutchBat faced fuel and food shortages. There was
8 limited electricity, as the generators required diesel fuel, and leave
9 requests were refused without reason. Throughout his time in Srebrenica,
10 Koster also observed the military situation around the enclave or was
11 informed about the situation during staff officers meetings.
12 On the 10th of July, 1995, Koster was among some 30 DutchBat
13 troops ordered to clear the approach route to the DutchBat compound for
14 the fleeing Muslim population and they made a hole in the compound's
15 perimeter fence. While waiting for the Muslims, Koster could hear firing
16 and shells landing close by. Koster and others carried one woman into
17 the compound who had shrapnel injuries. During the 11th to 13th of July,
18 Koster commanded a group of DutchBat soldiers outside the compound.
19 Koster saw the arrival of thousands of refugees, mostly women, children,
20 and elderly men. During those days, Koster saw scenes including Serbs
21 pushing Muslims towards buses. He saw some Muslim men sitting in a
22 greyish-white house to the west of the road with personal belongings
23 outside, and he saw DutchBat troops who had been disarmed.
24 On the 12th of July, Koster saw Serb soldiers arriving in
25 Potocari. Koster saw General Mladic arrive. Koster spoke with Mladic.
1 He watched Mladic walking around among the refugees, which was recorded
2 on video by the Serbs. Koster told Mladic that DutchBat commander
3 Karremans wanted to speak to him, but Mladic said that he did not care
4 about the UN and that he would do as he wanted and that he was now going
5 to evacuate. When Koster protested again, Mladic was becoming annoyed
6 and warned Koster, "If you oppose me, you will be in trouble." Later
7 Mladic came up to Koster again and asked if he had seen any Muslim
8 fighters or knew where they were, to which Koster said that he did not
9 know and if he had known he would not have told him.
10 On the 13th of July, Serb soldiers again loaded people onto
11 buses. It was a scorching day and there was chaos with people
12 collapsing, and everyone among the Muslim population looking out for
13 themselves. Koster investigated a rumour about bodies lying somewhere
14 and went to a location where there were nine bodies with gun-shot wounds
15 in the middle of their backs. That day Koster saw Mladic driving by in a
16 military jeep more than once. Koster heard that by about 1900 hours on
17 the 13th of July all the refugees had been taken away. Koster left
18 Srebrenica with DutchBat on the 21st of July and saw Mladic as the column
19 passed the iron bridge.
20 That concludes my summary, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
22 MR. ELDERKIN:
23 Q. Colonel Koster, I now have some additional questions for you.
24 First, please could you tell us briefly what was your current employment?
25 A. My current employment is with the Royal Dutch Military
1 Constabulary as deputy director of operations.
2 Q. What is your rank today?
3 A. My rank is colonel.
4 Q. I'd like to ask some background questions concerning the evidence
5 that I've just summarised and contained in your statement.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see, please, 65 ter 20005.
7 Q. What will be coming up on the screen, Colonel, is a map I'd like
8 to look at briefly to help put in context the evidence in your statement.
9 Here --
10 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could please zoom in towards the lower half
11 of the map. And just zoom out slightly so we capture the town at the top
12 of the screen right now, please. Thank you.
13 Q. So we can see Bratunac towards the top right of the screen, and
14 then along the road running southwards Yellow Bridge, UN Dutch compound,
15 and an arrow towards Srebrenica. Is this the area to which you were
16 deployed in 1995?
17 A. Yes, this is the area.
18 Q. Do you recall anything about the location marked as
19 "Yellow Bridge"?
20 A. As far as I can remember, Yellow Bridge is the entrance to the
21 enclave which was a check-point we had to pass upon entering and leaving
22 the enclave.
23 Q. Who held the territory to the north of the Yellow Bridge?
24 A. That was held by the Bosnian Serbian soldiers.
25 Q. And to the south of the Yellow Bridge?
1 A. The Muslim population was there.
2 Q. Can you explain on this map the route by which Muslims were
3 arriving at Potocari after the July 1995 attack on the Srebrenica
4 enclave. If you can do that just by description, that's fine; if you
5 need to use a marker pen, please say so.
6 A. I'll describe it in words. The Muslim population arrived from
7 the south from the direction of Srebrenica and went northward to Potocari
8 and Bratunac. They came from that direction.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, I'd request to tender this exhibit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 20005 becomes Exhibit P58, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P68 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
13 Mr. Elderkin -- oh, 58, yes, I misspoke. P58 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
15 Please could we see now 65 ter 17912.
16 Q. Colonel, we can see from the printed title that this is an
17 overview of Potocari. Do you recognise the locations here?
18 A. Yes, I recognise this location.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Elderkin, may I interrupt, please. I see
20 there are markings on this map. Were they made by this witness?
21 MR. ELDERKIN:
22 Q. Colonel, perhaps you could answer the question of the Judge.
23 A. Yes, these were my own notes that I made. I also signed the
24 notes. At the lower left, you'll see my signature.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 MR. ELDERKIN:
2 Q. Again, Colonel, if you can describe to us without needing to mark
3 anything further, could you indicate where is the DutchBat compound on
4 this image?
5 A. The compound is at the bottom centre of the photos, centre of the
6 photo is the DutchBat compound.
7 Q. To clarify, would that be the largest of the buildings we can see
8 along the left-hand side of the road as we see on the image now?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And in which direction along the road is Yellow Bridge and
12 A. Yellow Bridge and Bratunac are in the direction at the bottom of
13 the photograph.
14 Q. And the markings we can see on the image, could you tell us in
15 turn what they indicate. First, with the largest of the red boxes.
16 A. The marking with the largest red square indicates roughly where
17 the refugees were located; and next you'll see a small red marking on the
18 road, and that's the position where four armoured DutchBat vehicles were
20 Q. And that would be associated with the writing "4 X APC"; is that
22 A. Yes, that is indeed correct.
23 Q. And there is also a line heading from the road towards the right,
24 what does that represent?
25 A. That line is the route I worked with two fellow soldiers to
1 investigate whether at the site with the bushes to the right were nine
2 bodies, and we did indeed find them there.
3 Q. Do you recall where a location of a bus compound or bus depot was
4 when you look at this image?
5 A. Yes, as far as I remember the bus depot was in the large red
6 marked square.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd request to tender this image.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17912 becomes Exhibit P59, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P59 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: And may we see, please, 65 ter 5283.
12 Q. Now, I certainly have some trouble seeing the writing on here,
13 but this is clearly another marked image. Colonel, can you tell us
14 whether you can actually read and see the blue lines that appear on here?
15 If not, I'd suggest to proceed with a hard copy of the image.
16 A. I can see the blue lines easily.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, if they're clear enough to
18 yourselves and everyone else in the courtroom, I'd be happy to proceed
19 with the image on the screen obviously, since that stays in the trial
21 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
23 Q. Colonel, again for orientation, we can see a road running from
24 the top right to the centre bottom of this image. Can you tell us along
25 that road which direction is Yellow Bridge and Bratunac?
1 A. Along this road, Yellow Bridge and Bratunac would be at the top
2 end of the picture.
3 Q. And I'd like to ask you about the markings we can see on here,
4 starting with the circle towards the top, centre right, and that has the
5 words "white house" next to it. What is that location?
6 A. That location, as far as I can remember, is the white house where
7 the Muslim men were gathered.
8 Q. When you say where the Muslim men were gathered, who were these
9 Muslim men and over what period were they gathered there?
10 A. These Muslim men were the men taken from among the refugees, and
11 that happened around the 12th and 13th of July, as far as I can remember.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, before we proceed, I noticed that what
13 you are at this moment show to the witness is, as a matter of fact, a
14 picture which has been rotated, apparently by the usher, and that could
15 lead to confusion if we are talking about the top of the map or east
16 or -- so therefore I suggest that we look at the picture as it was
17 uploaded into e-court, and then we would have to understand, I think, the
18 first answer of the witness to be that Yellow Bridge and Bratunac would
19 be to the right of the map -- of the picture rather than to the top.
20 Mr. Koster, could you please look at it because if we start
21 rotating images then your testimony does not -- is not valid anymore.
22 Could you confirm that as shown now that Yellow Bridge and Bratunac is to
23 the right end of the picture.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can confirm that, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: And Your Honour, I think the reference to the
2 white house is clear enough since the wording appears next to that
3 marking --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: -- unless you would like me to confirm that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that is now at the right edge of this
7 picture. Please proceed.
8 MR. ELDERKIN:
9 Q. Colonel, could you tell us where the white house appears on this
10 image in relation to the DutchBat compound, the one that we saw in the
11 previous aerial image?
12 A. The white house is located -- well, let me put it differently.
13 The compound is at the lower right of the photograph with respect to the
14 white house.
15 Q. And there's a marking along the road where I see reference to
16 APCs, that's towards the left-hand edge of the screen as we see it along
17 the road. Could you tell us what that marking indicates?
18 A. Yes, absolutely. That's the position at which the four APCs are
20 Q. When were those APCs in position at that location?
21 A. They were positioned there on July 13th.
22 Q. Who positioned them there?
23 A. The APCs were positioned there at my request and the drivers
24 positioned them there.
25 Q. Why did you decide to position APCs at that location?
1 A. I decided to position the APCs there to facilitate security for
2 the Muslim population and to streamline it. I positioned the APCs there
3 as a type of barrier.
4 Q. Now, we can see some arrows going diagonally from close to the
5 APC marking towards the top right of the image. Please can you tell us
6 what do they represent?
7 A. The arrows mark the route I walked with two fellow soldiers to
8 the location where we suspected that nine bodies would be found.
9 Q. And indeed there is a marking, a line, and the word "bodies" up
10 towards the top right in the uniform green area. Can you please tell us
11 again what that marking specifically indicates.
12 A. That's the position where we found nine bodies.
13 Q. And close to that marking there is a cross in a circle and the
14 letter E. What does that represent?
15 A. That marks the spot where we left the road and entered the meadow
16 where the nine bodies were found, and the E means that I was there.
17 Q. Again, close to that letter E there is a line pointing towards an
18 X and the words "Serb soldier." Can you tell us what that represents?
19 A. Yes. When we left the meadow to report, we were found by a
20 Bosnian Serb soldier at roughly that position and then started speaking
21 on his radio.
22 Q. And there's also nearby an arrow that does a loop back on itself
23 and that's along what appears to be a roadway or a path heading
24 horizontally towards the right top hand of the screen. What does that
1 A. That line marks the route we selected after the Bosnian Serb
2 soldier saw us. We then assumed that this soldier, because he was
3 speaking into a radio, was reporting and that's why we used a different
4 route to return to the compound. When we walked onto that route we were
5 shot at and we returned, and then we walked back along the route marked
6 by arrows and went to the compound passed the APCs. Eventually I stopped
7 at the APCs and took on my duties.
8 Q. I'd like to leave this image on the screen while I briefly cover
9 some additional detail about the nine bodies that you describe in your
10 statement. Can you tell us what you saw when you arrived at these
11 bodies; for example, were they grouped together or spread apart? As best
12 you recall, what was the scene that you saw?
13 A. When we arrived there we saw nine bodies lying on their stomachs
14 and they were roughly in a line. The bodies had gun-shot wounds around
15 the middle of the back.
16 Q. Were the bodies all in the same orientation, the heads at the
17 same end, or mixed in both directions?
18 A. As far as I can remember, the bodies were roughly all in the same
19 orientation and also roughly in a row, yes.
20 Q. Again, apart from what you say in your statement, can you recall
21 any additional detail about how you assessed the bodies, specifically any
22 indication that you observed about how long ago they had been killed?
23 A. I remember once again that the bodies were on their stomachs and
24 were primarily dressed in men's clothes, I mean that they were wearing
25 trousers, and the bodies had gun-shot wounds around the middle of the
1 back and those injuries seemed recent to me because the blood hadn't
2 crusted yet. So it seemed like the bodies had laid there for at most a
3 half day or a few hours.
4 Q. Do you recall any smell?
5 A. No. I didn't smell any strange smell there.
6 Q. Were there any weapons nearby or any other indication that these
7 men could have been soldiers and not civilians?
8 A. I did not find any weapons there in those surroundings. There
9 were various documents on the ground, and as far as I can remember these
10 men, or at least their bodies, were dressed in civilian clothes.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd request to tender this document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 5283 becomes Exhibit P60, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P60 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: May we please see 65 ter 4820.
16 Q. The title here indicates the image shows Potocari on the 12th of
17 July of 1995 at around 1400 hours.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, you'll see there are some
19 indications on here added to the aerial image itself, including two large
20 arrows. These are not relevant to this witness. This is simply the
21 image that we have in e-court as it is, and I'd ask, with your
22 permission, that we could proceed. I'll ask the witness simply about the
23 image, not about those additions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. You may proceed as
25 suggested. By the way, here you say you have given it a date. Two
1 images back there was a date on it as well, but that was the 13th of July
2 apparently that -- yes, please proceed.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Colonel, again to orientate the Court to this image, can you see
5 any part of the DutchBat compound --
6 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Could I invite both the accused
7 and Defence counsel, if they want to communicate, to do it at such a
8 level of voice that it doesn't disturb the Chamber in hearing the
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. ELDERKIN:
12 Q. Colonel, to orientate us, can you see any part of the DutchBat
13 compound in this picture?
14 A. The DutchBat compound is at the lower right of the photograph.
15 Q. And again, which direction on this image is Bratunac and
16 Yellow Bridge?
17 A. Yellow Bridge and Bratunac are also situated at the lower right
18 of the photograph.
19 Q. Can you see the bus depot here?
20 A. Yes. The bus depot is at the centre and bottom left of the
22 Q. Now, can you please look along the road in the image. Do you
23 recall the general scene on that road when you were in Potocari on the
24 afternoon of 12th of July, 1995?
25 A. Yes. That's the road proceeding to the top left, it's the road
1 along which the refugees came in the direction of Potocari, that's that
2 road, yes.
3 Q. And where the indication in the centre of the image says
4 "People," can you tell us what you see on the road and particularly what
5 you recall seeing on that day in 1995?
6 A. That is the location where we sent the -- our red-and-white band
7 to mark the point up to where the civilian population could proceed
8 further on safety, and as far as I can see there are indeed a lot of
9 refugees around that point.
10 Q. Where were you personally positioned during the course of that
12 A. I was in various positions around the bus depot in the centre of
13 the photograph, but most of the time I was at the spot where I indicated
14 the red-and-white band was, where you see the "People" marking.
15 Q. And according to your statement, you had several encounters with
16 General Mladic on the 12th of July. Do you recall where those encounters
17 took place?
18 A. Yes, I recall that. That's at the position indicated and marked
19 as "People" and it was on the road, in that area.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd request to tender this exhibit,
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar -- oh, Mr. Petrusic, you're on your
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence does
25 not object to the admission of this document, but we wish to know who it
1 was that introduced changes --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters cannot here the speaker.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You -- the interpreters were unable to hear the last
4 part of what you said. You asked who made the changes and ...
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Precisely. That was my question,
6 this intervention, who introduced these changes as far as the photographs
7 are concerned?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean the markings "People," "Trucks," yes.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether I have to ask this to
11 Mr. Koster or -- Mr. Koster, if you know who made -- put the text into
12 this, if you know, please tell us; otherwise, we'll ask Mr. Elderkin.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea, Your Honour. In
14 any case, I didn't position them there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, the image was provided to us from a
17 Rule 70 provider with all of the text in -- the black text in the white
18 boxes is how we received the images. I understand, but I would have to
19 confirm if it's a point of contention, that the two arrows on the image
20 were added by one of the OTP investigators for purposes of presentation.
21 But as I said in the beginning --
22 JUDGE ORIE: But you said the Prosecution will not rely on the
23 red arrows. We have not heard what they mean. You received the document
24 in this format?
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Exactly -- as we have seen with the preceding
1 aerial image as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Petrusic, I also heard you say that there's no objection
4 against admission.
5 Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 4820 becomes Exhibit P61, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P61 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: If I may proceed?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: May we see, please, 65 ter 6189. This is similar
11 to the last image and again the title indicates that the image shows
12 Potocari, this time on the 13th of July, 1995, again at around 1400
14 Q. Again for orientation, Colonel, can you please tell us if you can
15 identify the DutchBat compound on this image?
16 A. The DutchBat compound is situated at the bottom left of the
18 Q. Again, looking along the road that we see in the image, does the
19 general scene portrayed here from the air correspond with what you
20 observed when you were present in Potocari on the 13th of July, 1995?
21 A. As far as I could see from my position, yes, it does correspond.
22 Q. Were there people present along the road on the 13th July 1995,
23 any crowds of people or groups of people, that you observed when you were
25 A. I saw a great many Muslim refugees along the road, and from the
1 barrier we set up with the four APCs they were proceeding to the buses,
2 and I also saw Bosnian Serb soldiers along the road as well.
3 Q. Can you identify the location of the barrier on the road on the
4 13th of July?
5 A. Yes, the barrier is located along the road at the upper end where
6 the vehicles on the road are located, and perhaps it might be convenient
7 if I indicated them with a marker.
8 Q. That would be very helpful.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: If I could ask for the court usher's assistance.
10 Can I ask that we have the markings set up in a red pen so that they are
11 distinct for this trial. Hopefully it may avoid some confusion.
12 JUDGE ORIE: In general, any markings made at the request of the
13 Prosecution will be marked in red, whereas any marking made at the
14 request of the Defence will be made in blue.
15 MR. ELDERKIN:
16 Q. Colonel, if I could ask you using the pen to first mark a line
17 where, as best you recall, there was a barrier across the road.
18 A. The barrier was about there and that was the barrier with the
20 Q. And that's the horizontal line you've drawn across the road; is
21 that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And if we could continue with the pen and ask for a further
24 marking which would be to identify if he can say where was the crowd of
25 people that you observed. Can you place a circle around the general
2 A. That's the area where I saw the people, both behind the barrier
3 and around the buses.
4 Q. And those are the only markings I'd ask from the witness for this
5 image. I'd ask if we could have that admitted as a marked in-court
6 exhibit, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6189 marked by the witness becomes
9 Exhibit P62, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P62 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. ELDERKIN:
12 Q. Colonel, was the barrier across the road in the same position on
13 the 13th of July as on the 12th of July?
14 A. I issued instructions on the morning of July 13th to take up
15 positions with the APCs there.
16 Q. I'm finished with that exhibit. I'd now like to start using some
17 short sections of the trial compilation video of Srebrenica. They're
18 very short --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, sorry for interrupting you. The
20 last question was not properly answered. You asked if the barrier was at
21 the same position as the day before; this is not answered. You should
22 ask the witness again.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Judge.
24 Q. Colonel, perhaps you could explain if the barrier was indeed in
25 the same position when you put it up on the 13th of July or was it in a
1 different position, as compared with the 12th of July.
2 A. As far as I can remember, on July 12th I didn't have such a
3 barrier involving vehicles set up, I had that done on July 13th. So on
4 July 12th, as far as I can remember, these vehicles were not yet in this
6 Q. And the location of the red-and-white tape across the road in the
7 12th compared to the position of the vehicles in the 13th, were those the
8 same positions or was the tape at a different location?
9 A. The red-and-white tape was at a different position.
10 Q. And was that closer towards the DutchBat compound compared to the
11 vehicles, as we see on the 13th, or further away from the DutchBat
13 A. No. The red-and-white tape was further away from the compound
14 and roughly at the top of the circle marking I placed on the photograph.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: I see we have perhaps five minutes left before the
17 first scheduled break and the first video clip I would play is less than
18 a minute long, so I'll proceed until we run out of time.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like to see from 65 ter 26123 and from part 1
21 of the compilation, which is ERN V0009014, a video starting at 14
22 minutes, 59 seconds, through to 15 minutes, 31 seconds.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. ELDERKIN:
25 Q. Colonel, do you recall scenes like this as we've just seen on
1 that sequence of video?
2 A. Yes, indeed. Such trucks completely loaded with refugees and
3 wounded refugees did pass my position.
4 Q. Where was your position around that time on the 11th of July?
5 A. At the time my position was outside the compound in the area of
6 the former bus station, and these vehicles rode passed this bus station
7 to reach the compound.
8 Q. Where were these people coming from?
9 A. These people came from the direction of Srebrenica.
10 Q. The next clip is from part 2 of the compilation and it's --
11 that's V0009035 from 17 minutes, 57 seconds, through to 19 minutes, 7
13 JUDGE ORIE: We can play it, but then we have no further time for
15 [Video-clip played]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, unless it would be one very short
17 question, but if there are more questions then we will -- they can be put
18 to the witness after the break.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: They can all wait until after.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you already follow the usher who will
21 escort you out of the courtroom. We will take a break of 20 minutes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, are you on track as far as time is
25 MR. ELDERKIN: I'll finish within the 90 minutes total that we
1 indicated for this witness, yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we take a break and we resume at 20
3 minutes passed 10.00, and could I invite everyone to be ready at 20
4 minutes passed 10.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.01 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.21 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, if you're ready, please proceed.
10 MR. ELDERKIN:
11 Q. Colonel, we finished just before the break with that short
12 section of video, showing scene around soldiers, crowd, some UN blue
13 helmets in Potocari. Were you in the area we saw in the video on the
14 12th of July?
15 A. Yes, I was in that area.
16 Q. Did you see these kinds of scenes?
17 A. Yes, I saw these scenes.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we please see from 19 minutes, 47 [Realtime
19 transcript read in error, "57"] seconds, and pausing at 19 minutes, 55
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, as it reads on the transcript you are
22 moving backwards in time.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: And it should read, Your Honour, 19 minutes, 47
24 seconds to 19.55.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you for observing that.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. ELDERKIN: And we're paused at 19 minutes, 55.1 according to
4 the counter.
5 Q. Can you identify the man in the blue helmet who has just walked
6 on to the centre of the screen?
7 A. Yes, I can. I'm that person.
8 Q. Could we please see from exactly 24 minutes and then pause at 24
9 minutes, 23 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. ELDERKIN: And we have paused at 24 minutes, 23.8 seconds
12 according to the counter on the screen.
13 Q. Colonel, can you identify the people on the screen, starting from
14 the blue helmet on the left?
15 A. Yes. The person wearing the blue helmet at the left of the
16 photograph is me, then the second person wearing a blue helmet is the
17 United Nations military observer, the UNMO. The gentleman -- I don't
18 recognise the gentleman in the centre wearing glasses, and the man at the
19 right of the photograph, I know him as Mladic.
20 Q. Do you recall what is going on here?
21 A. Yes. This is one of the moments that I'm talking to Mladic.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we carry on playing, please, through to 24
23 minutes and 50 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. ELDERKIN:
1 Q. Colonel, did you remain in the area while General Mladic was
2 talking to Muslims in the crowd at Potocari?
3 A. Yes, I remained at that location. I was not consistently close
4 to Mladic's position. Sometimes I reported about the position of
5 DutchBat and I tried to converse with Mladic at multiple occasions.
6 Q. What did you see General Mladic doing while you saw him around
7 the Muslims in Potocari on that day?
8 A. I saw him talking to the Muslims. I saw him soothing children by
9 touching them and patting them, and I saw him doing things like that.
10 Q. Who was with General Mladic when you saw him around Potocari?
11 A. There were -- there is Bosnian Serb soldiers around Mladic,
12 including one or two body-guards.
13 Q. Did you see the video cameraman who would have made this footage
14 or any other footage from Potocari?
15 A. Yes, I did indeed see camera people recording videos there.
16 Q. Do you recall that they were dressed as civilians or soldiers?
17 A. I apologise, I can't remember that.
18 Q. Did you see General Mladic speak to any of the Bosnian Serb
19 soldiers around him?
20 A. At the moment that I'm talking with General Mladic, I did see him
21 talking in the direction of Bosnian Serb soldiers.
22 Q. And just a reference to the previous aerial images we were
23 looking at, does the location we've seen in this sequence of video
24 correspond with the aerial image we saw of Potocari taken at around 1400
25 hours on the 12th of July?
1 A. As far as I'm concerned, yes, that was in the area of the
2 red-and-white tape.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we please now see part 3 of the compilation
4 video, which is ERN V0009016, and that's starting first extract at 2
5 minutes, 43 seconds, through to 3 minutes, 30 seconds, please.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. ELDERKIN:
8 Q. Colonel, do you recall seeing these kinds of scenes when you were
9 out on the road in Potocari on the 13th of July?
10 A. Yes, I do. I saw such scenes of Muslims at several points,
11 Muslims being directed to the vehicles.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we see, please, from 5 minutes, 42 seconds,
13 pausing at 5 minutes, 46 seconds.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. ELDERKIN:
16 Q. Colonel, did you see any instances of men being separated from
17 the rest of the crowd during either the 12th or the 13th of July in
19 A. Yes, I did indeed see that, and where we were able to prevent it
20 we tried get the Muslim men back in the flow of refugees, and I did so
21 myself as well.
22 Q. Do you recall any specific detail about your own attempts to try
23 to prevent separations?
24 A. Yes, at a certain point I respond to yelling by a young man, who
25 was being removed from the flow of refugees by two or three Bosnian Serb
1 soldiers. His mother was there and was protesting, and I went there and
2 tried to get the boy back into the flow of refugees. Together with his
3 mother at first I didn't succeed, but I continued urging and based on my
4 rank they let the boy go, they released him, and I was able to direct him
5 back into the flow of refugees so that he was able to board the buses and
7 Q. How old did he seem to be to you, if you recall?
8 A. I think that young man would have been about 15 or 16 years old,
9 around that age.
10 Q. Did you or any of the DutchBat soldiers under your command take
11 part in the process of separating men from the crowd?
12 A. No, we did not do that.
13 Q. Who was doing the separations?
14 A. As far as I was able to see, the men were separated from the
15 refugees by Bosnian Serb soldiers.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Please could we see from 6 minutes and 8 seconds,
17 pausing at 6 minutes and 16 seconds.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. ELDERKIN: We're paused at 6 minutes, 16.4 seconds according
20 to the counter on the screen.
21 Q. Can you tell us who is the man in the middle wearing the blue
22 flak jacket?
23 A. Yes, the man wearing the blue flak jacket, I recognise him as
24 Mickey, who together with the man at the left of the screen was basically
25 in command on site. They issued all kinds of instructions.
1 Q. Which organisation do you understand this man to be part of? Was
2 he DutchBat? Bosnian Muslim? Bosnian Serb?
3 A. No, the man wearing the blue flak jacket in the centre of the
4 photograph was part of the Bosnian Serb soldiers, as far as I'm concerned
5 [as interpreted].
6 Q. And the man in the beret on the right of the screen, who is he?
7 A. I recognise him as a fellow soldier, van Duijn of DutchBat.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we please carry on to 6 minutes, 31, and pause
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. ELDERKIN: And we're paused at 6 minutes, 31.3 seconds
12 according to the counter on the screen.
13 Q. This is to give us a clearer view of the man you mentioned to be
14 known to you as Mane. You confirm now seeing him face on the screen that
15 is the man you recall as Mane?
16 A. I do, indeed, recognise that man as being named Mane.
17 Q. And to be clear, again, which organisation was he part of?
18 A. He pertained to the Bosnian Serb soldiers.
19 Q. Final clip I'd like to show you, please, is from 10 minutes, 21
20 seconds, through to 10 minutes, 54 seconds.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. ELDERKIN:
23 Q. Colonel, do you recognise this location?
24 A. I recognise this location as the location I designated as the
25 white house where the Muslim men from the population were gathered.
1 Q. Did you see this location personally during the 12th or 13th of
3 A. Yes, I was there on one of the days, not at the actual house but
4 I was nearby. And at the time I saw men sitting on the ground against
5 the house.
6 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel. And in your statement you referred
7 to seeing Mladic in Potocari on the 13th of July. Can you tell us how
8 you saw him, where you saw him, if you recall?
9 A. As far as I recall, I saw Mladic riding passed there in a car
10 from the direction of Potocari to Srebrenica.
11 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel. I have no further questions for
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, at this time I've finished my direct
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge would like to put a short question to
18 the witness.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In relation to the white house, you told us that
20 you have been nearby the white house. Have you any idea how many people
21 were gathered in this white house at this point in time?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can tell you,
23 Your Honour, is that when I was nearby that white house I saw about ten
24 men sitting at the house at the time. I have no indication how many
25 people, how many men, were being detained at the white house.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, are you ready to start your
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Koster, you will now be cross-examined by
6 Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Petrusic is a member of the Mladic Defence team.
7 Please proceed.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, my first question is this: You arrived
10 in Srebrenica on the 21st of January, 1995, or rather, in Potocari.
11 Which rank did you have in the Dutch Battalion at the time?
12 A. At the time my rank was 1st Lieutenant.
13 Q. What was your duty in the DutchBat?
14 A. My duty when I arrived in the enclave was that of a logistics
15 lieutenant, that was my function.
16 Q. Does that mean that you were involved in providing supplies,
17 materiel, and all other necessities required by the battalion in order
18 for it to be operational during the mission?
19 A. I did indeed work for the logistics section that was involved in
20 supply of logistics and convoys of people on leave for the battalion.
21 Q. By reading your statement and listening to your evidence, my
22 conclusion is that on a number of occasions you went on patrol duty
23 inside the enclave?
24 A. That's correct.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see 1D00093 in
2 Q. Sir, can you see this document?
3 A. Yes, I can see it.
4 Q. Do you recognise it -- I withdraw this question.
5 The handwriting that you can see, can you acknowledge that this
6 is your handwriting?
7 A. I can confirm that that's my handwriting.
8 Q. If I understand it correctly, this is a questionnaire given to
9 you by the ICTY in order to give answers to the questions already asked;
10 is that correct?
11 A. I don't recall that.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to page 4 in English
13 and page 6 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. Colonel, this handwriting that you see in the upper and
15 right-hand portions of this page, is this your handwriting?
16 A. Yes, I recognise that as my handwriting.
17 Q. At the very beginning you were asked whether you had personally
18 witnessed inhumane and brutal treatment -- I withdraw this question.
19 Let me ask you this: Does this questionnaire relate to the
20 Srebrenica event that took place in July of 1995?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, isn't that very obvious? There's no
22 need to ask about matters which are obvious anyhow.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So, Colonel, on page 6 you can see that you provided answers by
25 encircling either a yes or no in response to the questions. Did you do
2 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
3 Q. Under item 5 it says:
4 "Wanton destruction or theft of private property ..."
5 And you encircled:
7 A. Yes, I saw that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Why not ask a question to the witness? I mean,
9 it's -- everyone can read that there's "yes" after this question. So
10 please develop so that we hear evidence which is relevant.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. If I were to ask you whether there was only wanton destruction in
13 Srebrenica, what would your answer be?
14 A. Whether I saw whether there was wanton destruction or theft, is
15 that what you're asking me?
16 Q. I'm asking you if I put a question to you that there was only
17 wanton destruction, which you of course should have seen, what would your
18 answer be?
19 JUDGE ORIE: The question is totally unclear to me.
20 Mr. Petrusic, I do not know what you are seeking. We see that the
21 witness filled in on this form at the question that he observed wanton
22 destruction or theft of private property, he said "yes." Now please put
23 a clear question to the witness.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I put the following question,
25 whether he had seen only wanton destruction.
1 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "only" in this respect? Whether
2 there was destruction which was not wanton or - that's not clear to
3 me - or whether he didn't see anything else. He may have seen vehicles,
4 he may have seen people. What do you mean by "only"? Or is your
5 question whether he saw any destruction which could not be considered to
6 be wanton destruction of private property; is that your question?
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No. My question is whether he saw
8 destruction that could be considered wanton. Obviously this is an
9 interpretation problem.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then rephrase the question in such a way that
12 everyone is able to understand your question.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So you in Srebrenica, did you see wanton destruction of the town?
15 A. In the period that I was in the enclave, I was in the city of
16 Srebrenica on some occasions and I saw the destruction of houses and the
17 destruction of various locations.
18 Q. Was that after the 11th of July, or rather, after the 6th of
19 July, 1995?
20 A. That was both before the 6th of July and after the 6th of July
21 and around the 11th of July, and in the final period I was primarily in
22 the area of Potocari and the reception area for the refugees. Before
23 that, I rode through Srebrenica and the enclave several times and
24 patrolled there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Koster, the word "destruction" may be not always
1 unambiguous. When you say "I saw destruction," did you mean that you saw
2 features that were destroyed or did you see the destruction going on? I
3 mean, if you see a house hit by a shell which may have hit a house a
4 couple of days before, then you see the destruction; but you do not see
5 the shell hitting the house and -- or destruction. When you use the word
6 "destruction," what do you mean? Destruction ongoing at that very moment
7 or the traces or the results of what -- the result being destruction of a
8 house or a feature or whatever?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, both cases are true.
10 In the period before July 11th I saw houses that had already been
11 destroyed, so I didn't see the process of destruction. In the period
12 around July 11th and afterwards, I also saw -- I also saw shells landing
13 and machine-gun fire between the houses and destroying them. I saw that
14 process at the time, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Yes, just one more question as regards this topic. Which houses
18 were in Potocari had been destroyed? Maybe my concept of destruction
19 does not coincide with yours, but you're an officer, you're a soldier,
20 and I think that you know what the real meaning of that concept is. So
21 which buildings in Potocari were destroyed?
22 A. I don't know whether we interpret the concepts the same way, but
23 what I saw is that around my position at around July 11th shells hit the
24 houses that were around my position, I saw that. And I'm describing that
25 as destructions.
1 Q. In your statement you said towards the end of January Muslim
2 fighters wanted you to stay away from part of the enclave. Can you tell
3 us which part of the enclave that was and why it was that they had asked
4 you to do that?
5 A. As far as I recall, that would have been the section described as
6 the Bandera Triangle. In that period we - in this case UNPROFOR, not me
7 personally - were denied access to that area.
8 Q. Can you tell us how many UNPROFOR soldiers and officers were
9 taken prisoner on that occasion?
10 A. As far as I recall that happened in stages, and in the end about
11 70 to 100 UNPROFOR soldiers were detained there. That's what I recall.
12 Q. What about Major Boering who went to negotiate after the first
13 prisoners were taken? Was he also arrested by the same group --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, I read:
15 "When this happened, Major Boering and van Alphen went to
16 negotiate and were also taken hostage by the BiH [indiscernible]."
17 So therefore that question seems to be answered in the statement.
18 Could you please focus on whatever we need in addition to the statement.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, I just wanted to lay that by
21 way of a foundation.
22 Q. So did your command protest? Did it lodge a protest with the
23 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo, or rather, did you protest with
24 the appropriate command of UNPROFOR north-east, in Sarajevo?
25 A. I don't recall that.
1 Q. So, quite simply, you never went to that zone again?
2 A. I don't know to what extent you can associate that, but I can't
3 recall that either.
4 Q. Did you ever try to disarm that part of the zone?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: It's not a direct objection, but the reference to
7 "you," as it comes across in English, is at least leading me to read
8 references to the witness personally, and it seems that the questions are
9 directed at DutchBat generally, and it may help for the record for that
10 to be specified.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 I take it, Mr. Petrusic, that you are not only talking about the
13 witness but also about other members of DutchBat. Then the question was
14 whether you ever tried - you or DutchBat people - tried to disarm that
15 part of the zone.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't recall that.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Further on you say that in the spring of 1995 you noticed troop
19 movements from Zvornik. These troops from Zvornik in the spring, that is
20 to say the time that you are speaking about, did they arrive in the area
21 of Srebrenica or did they carry out any kind of combat activity in the
22 area of Srebrenica? So we're talking about the early spring of 1995.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, it would assist the Chamber if you
24 would guide us to the relevant page of the statement.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, just a moment. It is page 4
1 in English and page 3 in Serbian -- oh, no, no, no. I've made a mistake.
2 All right, Mr. President, I'll go back to that later and now I
3 shall move on. What I quoted just now is on page 4 -- just a minute.
4 Page 4.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: I think Mr. Petrusic appears to refer to the first
7 paragraph, page 4, line 4 and 5:
8 "I also heard that there had been troop movements in Zvornik ..."
9 If that assists.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we had found it meanwhile, but thank you
12 Mr. Petrusic, next question, please.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So these troops, did they arrive in the protected area?
15 A. As far as I can recall, they were not in the protected area in
16 that period.
17 Q. So on the same page, page 4, in the English version it is
18 paragraph 4 and in the Serbian version it is page 3, you say that food
19 was running out. So you did not have enough food. Did I understand you
20 correctly, in that period you did not have enough food?
21 A. In that period we had food but we had to ration it. The normal
22 food -- the food supply was below what we would normally have had.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 1D0073 is the number of the
24 document that I'd like to have displayed now. Before I speak about this
25 document, Mr. President, I shall tender this statement which had been
1 put, or rather, this questionnaire, 1D00093, that is the number.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We hear of no objections.
3 Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D00093 becomes Exhibit D25,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D25 is admitted into evidence.
7 Mr. Petrusic, as general guidance, if you want to put a document
8 to the witness about things that were documented, better first ask the
9 witness whether he has any knowledge about it. That it's more
10 appropriate to find that out before a document is put to the witness than
11 after putting to the witness a document and then to hear from him that he
12 doesn't know anything about what's described in that document. Could you
13 please keep that in the back of your mind and you may now proceed.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Colonel, sir, were you aware of the situation in which your
16 command approved and provided supplies, that is to say both food and
17 fuel, to members of the 28th Division?
18 A. I can't remember that.
19 Q. So if I were to put a document to you, the one that's on the
20 screen, 1D00073, would that refresh your memory?
21 A. No, I'm sorry.
22 Q. Please, if I were to read the last paragraph out to you:
23 "We note that the above mentioned quantities have been separated
24 out of the humanitarian aid contingent which arrived in the area through
25 UNHCR while some of the food was obtained from the Dutch Battalion."
1 Who would be the person from the Dutch Battalion who could
2 approve these supplies?
3 A. That's difficult. I don't remember the situation properly or
4 don't remember it at all in fact, and in any case I don't recognise this
5 letter so that makes it difficult for me to indicate who would have
6 approved that and I'd like to leave it at that.
7 Q. A question of principle. I'm not saying that you approved it,
8 but the question of principle, supplies, logistics supplies, would you be
9 the person to approve that?
10 A. No. Ultimately it was the battalion's head of logistics, and I
11 was his deputy -- excuse me, I was his subordinate.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, perhaps I put one additional question.
13 Do you have any knowledge or are you aware of ever DutchBat
14 providing food to the defence -- the Muslim defence or the 28th I think
15 it was Battalion. But are you aware of ever having provided food to the
16 military, the Muslim military, in the area?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour I don't
18 remember that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You say you don't remember or you remember that it
20 did never happen?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Petrusic, I --
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- we are close to a break and I have a few
1 procedural matters I would like to deal with, therefore I suggest that
2 Mr. Koster takes the break already and that we briefly deal with these
3 procedural matters.
4 For you it would be approximately half an hour that we would like
5 to see you back.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The matters I would like to deal with, first about
8 scheduling post the summer recess.
9 On the 16th of July, the Chamber indicated to the parties a
10 possible schedule for the period between the summer and winter recess of
11 this year. On the 17th of July, 2012, the Defence made its submissions
12 on this matter. It stated that it did not object to the weeks of
13 adjournment identified by the Chamber, but proposed that the number of
14 sitting days per week be reduced to four. Further, the Defence proposed
15 that the daily start time should be moved from 9.00 a.m. to 10.00 a.m.
16 and that the Chamber sit for shorter sessions between breaks. The
17 Prosecution indicated that it would not make any submission on this
19 The Chamber notes that neither party objects to the weeks of
20 adjournment proposed by the Chamber. The Chamber therefore schedules
21 hearings in this case for all weeks between the summer and winter recess
22 with the exception of the weeks of the 13th of August, the 10th of
23 September, the 15th and the 22nd of October, and the 26th of November.
24 With regard to the proposed reduction from five to four court
25 days per week for reasons related to the health of the accused, the
1 Chamber considers that this is a measure affecting the overall scheduling
2 of the case, and therefore requires specific submissions by the parties,
3 accompanied by supporting medical documentation. Absent such submissions
4 and documentation, the Chamber at this stage denies the request.
5 The Chamber grants in part the remaining request by the Defence.
6 On the 21st, the 22nd, and 23rd of August, the hearing will start at 9.00
7 a.m.; however, as from the 24th of August, the hearing will start at 9.30
8 a.m. The daily court sessions will be divided into three one-hour
9 sessions and one session of 45 minutes, with always 20-minute breaks.
10 The daily court sessions therefore will conclude at 2.15 p.m.
11 I have a few other matters. One of them is that Mr. Groome made
12 a proposal in relation to adjudicated facts. He made this proposal in
13 court on the 18th of July, and the Chamber would like to know whether the
14 Defence wishes to respond to that.
15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I think that we haven't consulted fully
16 on this with the Prosecution, so --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait and we'll further hear from you.
18 The procedure with regard to agreed facts, Mr. Groome also made a
19 proposal on the 18th of July, and the Chamber wondered whether the
20 Defence has already made up its mind on this matter or whether there's
21 still conversations ongoing?
22 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, not only are the conversations still
23 ongoing, but we will probably decide what can we offer to the Prosecution
24 as we read more and more documents and witness statements in the future.
25 So I think it will be ongoing process.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think the proposal was not on the subject but
2 rather on the procedure. Would you disagree with the procedure as
3 proposed by the Prosecution?
4 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber will consider whether or not to
6 grant it, now knowing the position of the Defence.
7 Mr. Groome, you also would like to make a proposal with regard to
8 65 ter numbers. How much time would that take?
9 MR. GROOME: Just a minute, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the present practice that the
12 Prosecution is following concerns the following situation. A number of
13 the statements that the Prosecution will be tendering in this case were
14 specifically drafted for another case and they refer to 65 ter numbers
15 assigned to exhibits in that other case. Obviously, these exhibits have
16 different numbers in this case. The Prosecution has done with the
17 witnesses to date and proposes to continue to do is to attach to the back
18 of the statement a conversion chart that correlates the 65 ter number
19 mentioned in the statement with the 65 ter number assigned in this case.
20 The Prosecution proposes to actually attach it to the statement to ensure
21 it never becomes separated from the statement and thereby causing
23 Now, in discussions with the Legal Officer of the Chamber and
24 Mr. Lukic, there are some other concerns with respect to possible
25 confusion later in the trial, and we are actively exploring technical
1 solutions for that, but I would propose for the time being that we --
2 Prosecution be allowed to maintain this practice of attaching a
3 conversion chart to the back of any exhibit that so requires it.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Groome, of course for today the system
6 will not change, but of course the Chamber would very much like the
7 parties to seek a joint resolution as soon as possible.
8 And, Mr. Lukic, if you have already --
9 MR. LUKIC: One --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- anything to add to this, then please do so.
11 MR. LUKIC: -- sentence, Your Honour. I think that -- this is, I
12 think, the only system the Prosecution can utilise at this moment, but at
13 the end of this trial we will have complete chaos. It will be impossible
14 for everybody, Chambers, Prosecution, us to follow. After two, three
15 years, who would remember what happened with which witness and which
16 number was assigned to the wrong document. So if we search, we would
17 find the document but that document would be different in our case, so I
18 don't know -- we have -- we have to find a solution, but this is maybe
19 some kind of semi-solution but it's not a proper one.
20 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, for today we're not going to change it,
21 but I also urge that a solution to be found as quickly as possible. Of
22 course Chambers staff will assist the parties to the extent possible, but
23 I see the problems when in the documents themselves we're still working
24 with the old 65 ter numbers.
25 At least it's now clearly on the record that this problem should
1 be resolved as quickly as possible and we now first take a break and we
2 resume at ten minutes to 12.00. I'll then first read a short -- no, no,
3 I'm -- I apologise. No, 20 minutes to 12.00. I'll then first read a
4 short decision and then we'll complete the cross-examination of
5 Mr. Koster.
6 Mr. Petrusic, could you give us any indication as to how much
7 time you'd still need with Mr. Koster?
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Hopefully I shall finish by the
9 end of today.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber encourages you to be well
11 organised in the conduct of your cross-examination.
12 We take a break and we'll resume in 20 minutes.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.44 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, would you please not speak loudly when
16 the Chamber wants to proceed. You always can consult with counsel, but
17 please at a low volume if there's any need to do it during the sessions.
18 I'll start reading a decision and perhaps meanwhile the witness
19 could be -- remain stand-by, although the decision is quite a number of
21 The Chamber will now deliver its decision on the urgent Defence
22 motion seeking adjournment and continuance of trial or, in the
23 alternative, a reconsideration of the statement amending the guidance on
24 the tendering of evidence through Rule 92 ter of the Tribunal's Rules of
25 Procedure and Evidence, filed on the 9th of July, 2012.
1 On the 19th of June, the Chamber provided the parties with a
2 courtesy party of its additional clarification and amendment on the
3 guidance on the tendering and presentation of evidence, which was
4 subsequently on the 9th of July formally put on the record. Also on this
5 9th of July, 2012, the Defence filed a motion requesting that the Chamber
6 grant a six-month adjournment of the proceedings or, in the alternative,
7 that it reconsider its additional clarification and amendment to the
8 guidance. On the 10th of July, the Prosecution responded in court and
9 both parties then made further oral submissions.
10 The Defence submits that since the announcement of the guidance
11 in November 2011, it had organised all its preparations for the trial in
12 accordance with the relevant guide-lines therein, for which the Chamber
13 had repeatedly stressed its preference. It argues that this drastic and
14 unprecedented last-minute change threatens the integrity of the
15 proceedings and the accused's right to a fair trial. It further creates
16 additional hardship for the Defence which had already struggled to
17 recover from the Prosecution's lapse in compliance with its disclosure
18 obligations. Thus, a trial adjournment would allow the Defence to return
19 to the state of trial preparedness it would have been in, had the
20 guidance remained unchanged. The Defence lists five issues, which had
21 particularly affected its trial preparations, and they will be addressed
23 The Prosecution opposes the motion, arguing that the Defence has
24 mis-characterised the Chamber's clarification and amendment to the
25 guidance, and has not demonstrated that the changes had an impact on its
1 trial preparations, such that would justify a considerable adjournment in
2 the proceedings. It notes that it had not altered its Rule 92 ter
3 package and, thus, the Defence knew what the Prosecution would seek to
4 tender with the next witnesses for at least 30 days before their
5 respective testimony. It further submits that contrary to the Defence's
6 portrayal, the Chamber's guidance did not replace the Tribunal's Rules
7 but rather represents the Chamber's preference in respect of the
8 tendering and presentation of evidence which, in exceptional
9 circumstances, may be modified.
10 The Chamber will examine whether the extent of the allegedly
11 unforeseen latest modifications to the guidance justify the granting of a
12 six-month adjournment in the proceedings or, in the alternative, whether
13 a clear error of reasoning or the need to avoid injustice warrant a
14 reconsideration of the Chamber's additional clarification and amendment
15 of the guidance. The Chamber reiterates that its guidance is meant to
16 provide an indication to the parties of its strong preferences with
17 regard to the tendering and presentation of evidence during trial, with
18 the aim of achieving a streamlined presentation of evidence that is
19 concise and efficient.
20 The Chamber recalls that upon showing of good cause and on a
21 case-by-case basis, leave to depart from the guidance may be granted.
22 Therefore, in view of the nature of the guidance, the Chamber considers
23 that any potential burden on the Defence should primarily be assessed in
24 light of how the guidance is applied in practice. In this respect, the
25 Chamber notes that currently there are Rule 92 bis and quater motions
1 with regard to two witnesses pending before the Chamber, and that
2 Rule 92 ter motions filed by the Prosecution mainly relate to witnesses
3 who will be heard after the summer recess, that is, in at least a month's
5 Further, in relation to the Defence's concerns about the
6 last-minute changes to the guidance, the Chamber notes that the guidance,
7 due to its very nature, is subjected to developments and modifications.
8 The Chamber will now address the five issues raised by the
9 Defence in its motion. First, the Defence raises the issue of allowing
10 the Prosecution to tender additional supplementary witness statements or
11 statements on distinct subjects. As to the tendering of additional
12 supplementary statements, this modification was already introduced on the
13 24th of April, 2012, that is well before the adoption of the additional
14 clarification and amendment. But even taken together with the recent
15 modifications allowing additional statements on distinct subjects, in
16 light of the relatively low number of Rule 92 bis, ter, and quater
17 motions filed so far, the Chamber considers that these amendments do not
18 substantially affect the Defence's trial preparations.
19 Second, the Defence argues that the Prosecution would now be
20 permitted to present an unlimited number of associated exhibits. This is
21 not correct. In accordance with the Tribunal's jurisprudence, the
22 Chamber's additional clarification and amendment to the guidance allows
23 for the tendering of documents pursuant to Rules 92 bis to quater, if
24 they form an inseparable and indispensable part of a witness's testimony.
25 Further, the Chamber allows the parties to tender associated exhibits
1 without the witness commenting on them in court under certain
2 circumstances only, when they do not disturb the clarity of the
3 presentation of witnesses' evidence. This, as explained by the Chamber,
4 would apply to documents of a very specific type.
5 Furthermore, the guidance has not set any limitation on the
6 number of exhibits that can be introduced with Rule 92 ter witnesses, as
7 long as they are presented in court and commented on by the witness. The
8 Chamber therefore considers that the Defence's preparations in this
9 respect have not been substantially affected.
10 Third, the Defence addresses the increase and the Prosecution's
11 examination-in-chief time-limits and the lack of the corresponding
12 increase in the Defence's lengths in cross-examination. As explained in
13 the additional clarification and amendment, the Chamber had already
14 decided on the times for examination-in-chief prior to the 19th of June,
15 2012. Furthermore, although the additional clarification and amendment
16 to the guidance does not address the time-limits for cross-examination of
17 92 ter witnesses, the Chamber recalls that in its recent decisions on the
18 Prosecution's 92 ter witnesses, it stated that the exact amount of time
19 available for cross-examination depends on many factors and may also be
20 re-evaluated depending on how the cross-examination is conducted. These
21 relevant factors include, inter alia, the length of the
22 examination-in-chief or whether the witness is called viva voce or
23 pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
24 Fourth, the Defence protests against the use of transcripts from
25 other proceedings before the Tribunal, which in its view has now been
2 The Chamber recalls that its guidance of the 10th of November,
3 2011, indicated that transcripts of testimony a witness gave in other
4 cases would only be admitted into evidence in exceptional circumstances.
5 The additional guidance merely clarifies the Chamber's initial view by,
6 inter alia, explaining that while the Chamber will not always insist that
7 a statement be taken from witnesses who have not previously provided any,
8 it will carefully consider the party's reasons before deciding on the
9 admission of transcripts of testimony.
10 Fifth, the Defence claims that the tendering of exhibits during
11 re-examination presents an opportunity for the Prosecution to withhold
12 exhibits, preventing the Defence from addressing them in
13 cross-examination. The Chamber notes that this issue does not, as such,
14 arise from the additional clarification and amendment to the guidance.
15 It will nevertheless address the Defence's concerns. In this respect the
16 Chamber recalls that Rule 85 of the Rules provides the general sequence
17 as to the presentation of evidence and examination of witnesses, which
18 can only be varied in the interests of justice. The Chamber considers
19 that it is inevitable that the Prosecution limit the presentation of its
20 evidence during its examination-in-chief, in the interests of expediency
21 and efficiency. The parties should not flood the Chamber with material
22 during their case in chief, with a view to anticipating and pre-emptively
23 responding to all possible opposing evidence. Should the Prosecution, in
24 accordance with the guidance, introduce evidence during re-examination,
25 the Defence will have an opportunity to address this new evidence in
1 further cross-examination. The Chamber does not consider that this has
2 substantially affected the Defence's preparation for trial so far.
3 In view of the above, the Chamber is of the upon that the
4 additional clarification and amendment of the guidance introduced limited
5 modifications to the Chamber's guidance on the tendering and presentation
6 of evidence, as previously amended on the 24th of April, 2012. Further,
7 the Defence has failed to show that these modifications have indeed
8 impeded on its ability to effectively proceed with the trial to the
9 extent that would justify granting any adjournment in the proceedings.
10 As to the Defence's request for reconsideration, the Chamber
11 considers that the Defence has failed to demonstrate a clear error of
12 reasoning or the risk of injustice that would necessitate a
13 reconsideration of the impugned additional clarification and amendment of
14 the guidance. And the Chamber accordingly denies the motion.
15 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, you said you hoped that you would be
18 able to finish today your cross-examination. If some time would be left,
19 perhaps limited, I do not know how much time you need, Mr. Elderkin, but
20 for re-examination, of course it's difficult to assess at this very
21 moment, but if we could conclude the testimony of this witness today,
22 let's try to achieve that.
23 Welcome back, Mr. Koster. Mr. Petrusic will now continue his
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Colonel, on page 4 and page 4 in both versions of your statement,
2 you said that you met representatives of the civilian authorities twice,
3 and you say that the person involved was probably the mayor and that that
4 occurred probably sometime in mid-May. So I'm referring you to your
5 statement, page 4, paragraph 5 from the top.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the question for the witness?
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
8 Q. Mr. Koster, can you tell us what did the mayor request of you?
9 Did he make any requests or did he merely make some complaints?
10 A. During that visit we spoke about negotiations concerning
11 logistics supplies and their delivery. I don't remember exactly what he
12 asked or whether they were specifically complaints.
13 Q. Do I understand you correctly that he did ask you for some
15 A. We spoke about the negotiations for exchanging supplies for food
16 and other materials, but I -- unfortunately I don't remember the exact
18 Q. All right, thank you.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender into
20 evidence document 1D0073 [as interpreted], please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. That is, Mr. Petrusic -- let me just
22 have a look.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, we are talking about the
25 questionnaire? No.
1 Mr. Petrusic, what document because -- forgive me for not having
2 always all the numbers by heart.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's the document about --
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Which spoke about the delivery of
6 food --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the delivery of food, separating food from
8 UNHCR, that was not about delivery of food, but about separating and
9 obtaining. That was the language used in that document.
10 Any objections? Not.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D00073 becomes Exhibit D26,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Petrusic, it would assist the Chamber that if you refer to
16 documents or quote from documents, that you do it very precise and please
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Colonel, when you arrived on the 22nd January 1995, did you find
20 there at the location some other international organisations that were
21 headquartered in Potocari or Srebrenica?
22 A. As far as I can remember, I did meet other international
23 organisations but not on the 22nd.
24 Q. In other words, after your arrival, that was my question; and you
25 gave me an affirmative answer. Now, did you co-operate with the UNHCR?
1 A. I'm sorry, you mean UNHCR?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I recall that we did indeed contact UNHCR on a few occasions
4 after the period of 22nd January 1995.
5 Q. Do you know that the UNHCR fuel depot was also situated in
7 A. I can't determine the exact location of the fuel depot, but I do
8 know that UNHCR had a fuel depot in the enclave.
9 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Petrusic please repeat the question;
11 it was not entirely audible.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether your battalion often used UNHCR
15 A. I recall that at least once, but perhaps several times - I'm not
16 sure about that part - used UNHCR's fuel in consultation with UNHCR.
17 Q. You were acquainted with Lieutenant Rutten, a lieutenant of your
18 battalion. Correct me if I am wrong .
19 JUDGE ORIE: That appears from the statement, isn't it,
20 Mr. Petrusic? He's mentioned many, many times.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that he mentioned him,
22 but I would like to hear his answer. Anyway, it's all right --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, please next question and then it will
24 appear what the problem may be.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have document
2 Q. We are waiting for the document, and in the meantime I'm going to
3 tell you that that's the diary kept by Mr. Rutten as of January until
4 21st of July, 1995, while he was in Srebrenica. And the part that is
5 relevant for the Defence are pages 53 and 54. I'm talking about the
6 version in English. In English it's the bottom of page 53 and the
7 beginning of page 54.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And your question is, Mr. Petrusic?
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. My question is: Sir, do you see at the beginning of page 54 that
11 it is said by Mr. Rutten that there was enough fuel for the month of May?
12 A. Yes, I can read that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Your question, Mr. Petrusic.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Sir, bearing in mind all of this, was there enough fuel for your
16 units and your patrols to be able to carry out their mission; in other
17 words, to go on patrols around the enclave?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, a time-frame would that -- would you
19 focus on May or would you focus on any other point in time?
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I'm talking about the period from the time when the Dutch
22 Battalion arrived until the end of May 1995, bearing in mind of course
23 the previous document as well.
24 A. As far as I can recall in the period you're referring to, the
25 last diesel transport we received in the enclave was on 18 February; and
1 from that point we simply used our reserves and operationally we started
2 to minimise use of motorised transport or at least as far as diesel is
3 concerned. So we applied the stage of minimising diesel use in our
4 operations. I'm not sure whether this is what Lieutenant Rutten is
5 referring to, I can't determine that.
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the whole of the diary or this
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Only pages 53 and 54.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is there any other portion -- is there
12 any other portion you would like to rely on because you have read
13 literally I think what was in the diary:
14 "There is enough diesel for the month of May."
15 If that's the only quote, I wonder whether we would need -- if
16 there is no dispute about the fact that it was part of Mr. Rutten's
17 diary, whether we need the diary at this moment.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, there's no dispute that that quote
19 comes from Major Rutten's diary.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Then, Mr. Petrusic, do you still insist on -- or would you
22 refrain from tendering this?
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, no.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed and put your next question to
25 the witness.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Colonel, sir, please take a look at your statement, page 4, the
3 one-but-last paragraph. This is the English version and the fourth
4 paragraph in the Serbian version, the version in B/C/S.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Koster, do you feel comfortable with reading the
6 English version of your statement, where of course you signed the Dutch
7 one? I mean your knowledge of the English language is sufficient to
8 follow the question in English if you read it in English?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. Thank
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President, if
13 you allow me to address you, perhaps it would be faster if it would suit
14 Mr. Koster to have the English version of his statement in front of him.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If a hard copy is available, that could be provided
16 to Mr. Koster, preferably a non-annotated version.
17 Meanwhile you put your next question to the witness,
18 Mr. Petrusic.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. My question, Mr. Koster: Whose observation posts are you
21 referring to here?
22 A. I'm referring to the DutchBat observation posts.
23 Q. Could you have prevented in any way this kind of conduct of the
24 members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or members of the
25 28th Division?
1 A. I have a question about that. Do you mean me personally or do
2 you mean DutchBat?
3 Q. Sir, I do apologise to you for this lack of understanding, but
4 you are right. So was it the Dutch Battalion that could have stopped
5 this kind of thing from happening, such incidents, that is?
6 A. I think that enough protests were lodged to the Muslim fighters
7 in that period not to fire at the Serbs. Apparently that did,
8 nonetheless, instigate such incidents despite the protests.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to try and intervene here. It does look
10 as if there is miscommunication here. This paragraph you're referring
11 to, Mr. Petrusic, it seems to be saying that the observation posts and
12 patrols sometimes came under fire during this period. You asked the
13 witness whose observation posts these are, and he said they belonged to
14 the ABiH. Now, you can't then ask whether he can stop the ABiH from
15 doing what they are doing because it is -- they are supporting the --
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Looking at the paragraph you referred the witness
18 to, sir. I'm not looking at the following paragraph.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] You are quite right, Judge, but my
20 understanding was that during the night Muslim fighters would take up
21 position at the observation posts of the UN, the Dutch Battalion.
22 Q. Did I misunderstand your statement, Colonel?
23 A. In my statement I indicated that the Muslim fighters did indeed
24 take position at the observation post during the night to fire at the
25 Bosnian Serb side and the observation posts were DutchBat ones.
1 Q. Further on you said that you lodged protests with higher
2 commands. Did you try to disarm the members of the Muslim units?
3 A. You're still saying "you," and I wonder whether this is addressed
4 to me personally or is it about DutchBat? And I explained that we spoke
5 with the leadership of the Muslim fighters. I just indicated that we
6 protested and I don't know, or at least I can't recall, whether this was
7 the leadership of the Muslim fighters. So I don't know whether you mean
8 me or DutchBat in your question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Koster, if Mr. Petrusic puts a
10 question wherein he wants to refer to you as a person and not DutchBat,
11 then he'll clarify that; otherwise, you can understand "you" to refer to
12 you and DutchBat.
13 Please proceed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Could you please repeat the question one more time.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think that we have sufficiently
17 resolved this dilemma regarding the observation posts, so now I would
18 like to move on to my next question.
19 Q. In your statement on page 5, paragraphs 3 and 4 in the English
20 version, and page 4, the penultimate paragraph in the Serbian version,
21 are you referring to the removal of observation post E at the south of
22 the enclave? You do recall that, don't you?
23 A. Yes, I can recall that.
24 Q. After this movement -- actually, can you tell us how long this
25 combat lasted?
1 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall that.
2 Q. After this movement, I mean after the observation post was moved,
3 did the Drina Corps forces intend to move towards the enclave or did they
4 stop once the observation post was changed, as it were?
5 A. I don't know which unit took up observation post Echo. I do know
6 that at that point they didn't get beyond observation post Echo as far as
7 I can remember.
8 Q. So your command, did it have information to the effect that
9 before this observation post was taken Muslim armed forces left and went
10 to the area in front of this observation post, taking away property that
11 belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska?
12 A. I can't remember that.
13 Q. Please can we move on to page 7, paragraph 3 from the top of the
14 page in English, and page 6, paragraph 4, in the Serbian version. This
15 is already the time of the beginning of combat around Srebrenica. Sir,
16 that is what you refer to here. Would you agree with me that the day
17 referred to here is the 9th of July?
18 A. I'm referring to early July 1995. I don't recall the exact date,
19 I'm sorry.
20 Q. Do you remember when soldier Renssen lost his life? He was a
21 member of the Dutch Battalion.
22 A. Raviv was indeed a member of DutchBat.
23 Q. You don't know the date of his death?
24 A. I don't remember that date now, no.
25 Q. What about the other members of the Dutch Battalion, were they
1 aware of the fact that Private Renssen had lost his life?
2 A. You mean in that period from what I understand? Yes.
3 Q. Yes, in that period.
4 A. Well, it was indicated. I was in the operations room when that
5 report arrived, and later on it was confirmed to other members of
6 DutchBat that Raviv Renssen did unfortunately die.
7 Q. In the cited paragraph, you say that observation posts U and S
8 were taken and that your colleagues were given the choice of returning to
9 base or to drive into Serb territory, which would mean that they were
10 being taken as prisoners of war. So these two observation posts were
11 taken by members of the Drina Corps who were carrying out operations at
12 the time. Is that the way it was?
13 A. I recall that the observation posts Uniform and Sierra were taken
14 by Bosnian at the time, I just don't know what unit they were taken
15 from -- excuse me, they were taken from Bosnian Serbs at the time, I just
16 don't know what unit they were from.
17 Q. Sir, do you know that Private Renssen lost his life in the
18 following way, he was going back from his observation post, he was
19 returning to base in Potocari? He was in an APC.
20 A. Yes, I know that he was in an APC and was on the way back to the
21 enclave towards Srebrenica and Potocari, and that's where he was injured.
22 Q. Do you know that he was wounded by members of the Muslim armed
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, what does the statement clearly say in
25 this respect? Ten Muslim fighters said that the armoured vehicle could
1 not go any further, nevertheless they decided to carry on. One of the
2 Muslim fighters threw a hand-grenade -- that's evidence. Why is there
3 any need to repeat that? Please proceed.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Colonel, sir, these soldiers from the observation posts U and S
6 that were taken by the Serb forces on the following day, did they
7 surrender to the Army of Republika Srpska? Because they did not dare
8 return because of the threat of retaliation by the Muslim forces.
9 A. Yes, I understood that they opted to fall into the hands of the
10 Bosnian Serb army, and I can't speak on behalf of the choice of
11 Sergeant Bresser and van Eck because I didn't know them personally.
12 Q. You were Major Franken's deputy; right?
13 A. In the period that I was logistics lieutenant in the enclave, I
14 was the substitute of Major Franken, and when the combat started I was
15 commander of the quick reaction force instructed by the DutchBat
16 operations room. That was the situation.
17 Q. Do you know why it was that Major Franken had issued this order
18 of opening the encirclement, if you will, so that the Muslim population
19 could come in? Why not simply open the gate so that they could enter?
20 A. I received that order from Major Otter. As far as I recall, the
21 decision was to get the Muslim population that was fleeing the most
22 protected route possible to the compound, and the route along the road by
23 the gate was in full view and offered all kinds of opportunities to shoot
24 at the Muslim population.
25 Q. On that first day in the afternoon, that is to say the 10th of
1 July, did the refugee population arrive in your base?
2 A. As far as I recall in the afternoon of July 10th there was not
3 yet a massive flow of refugees outside. We did encounter several people
4 from the Muslim population?
5 Q. Now I would like to draw your attention to page 8 of the
6 statement. I think that it's the last paragraph on page 8 and the first
7 paragraph on page 9, the first and second paragraphs on page 9. In the
8 Serbian version it is page 7, paragraphs 2 and 3 from the bottom of the
10 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the question for the witness,
11 Mr. Petrusic?
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Colonel, sir, on whose orders did you carry out this mission?
14 A. At the time I was under the command of Major Otter.
15 Q. So on his order?
16 A. On Monday, July 10th, when we went outside and made a hole in the
17 gate and prepared to receive some refugees, I was under his command. I
18 was his group commander.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And the question of Mr. Petrusic was whether he gave
20 you the order to do that.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To go outside the compound and make
22 a hole in the fence, I was instructed by Major Otter to do that and to
23 get my people ready to receive the refugees, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, Mr. Petrusic.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Colonel, on whose order did you meet with one of the commanders
2 of the Muslim fighters of the northern part of the enclave, Mandzic? Do
3 you remember that meeting?
4 A. Excuse me. I remember that meeting.
5 Q. Can you tell us what the essence was, what the topic of that
6 meeting was, what the agenda was?
7 A. At the first meeting, we were asked what we were doing there as
8 DutchBat. Later that evening I had a second meeting and the Muslim
9 fighters asked about help and to what extent the UN would intervene.
10 Q. Colonel, sir, is that the same Mandzic from that part of the
11 enclave from which you had been banned, where you were not allowed
13 A. I don't know. The man I spoke with during the first meeting was
14 introduced to me as Mandzic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, I'm looking at the clock. It's time
16 for a break, but I'd first like to have the witness escorted out of the
18 We'll have a break of approximately about 20 minutes, Mr. Koster.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, how much time do you think you would
21 still need?
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, Judge, I need
23 more than the time that is left if I were to do all the things I had
24 planned to do. I have the 11th, I have Potocari, the 11th, 12th, 13th,
25 I'm talking to you about the topics that I have to deal with. Until now
1 I've been told I've used up 75 minutes. I don't know whether that is
2 correct or not, but --
3 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is not only looking at minutes but also
4 at the way in which the cross-examination is conducted. Let me just
5 confer with my colleagues.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber has carefully considered
8 the way in which the cross-examination was conducted. I once looked at
9 my screen and saw that for 30 seconds you did not put a question at all
10 to the witness. I had to invite you several times just to put a question
11 to the witness. Apart from that, the relevance and the fact that often
12 matters are obvious or already clearly in the statement. Having
13 considered all that, the Chamber has decided that you have half an hour
14 after the break to conclude your cross-examination.
15 We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes passed 1.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.46 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Witness, we're now going to move to page 14, paragraph 4 in
23 English, and page 12, paragraph 2 in B/C/S. In order to be as efficient
24 as possible, I'm going just to quote that you said that the bodies of the
25 victims were usually buried on the northern part. Do you remember saying
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is the last sentence of that paragraph, just
3 to assist the witness.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I stated at the time, then I
5 stand by that statement.
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you tell us how many bodies were buried at that location?
8 A. Unfortunately, I cannot remember that at this time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Approximate number, Mr. Koster? Was it 10? Was it
10 200? Can you give any indication?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, more likely fewer than
12 10 than something near 200.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Did you keep any records or lists of the burials?
16 A. I remember that DutchBat made a note of the position where
17 several bodies were believed to be buried.
18 Q. Do you know what was the cause of death of the persons buried
19 there and when did the death occur?
20 A. No, I can't tell you exactly what the cause of the deaths was. I
21 know that the time of death must have been around July 11th.
22 Q. Must have been or was it indeed?
23 A. As I recall, it was around that time.
24 Q. Did your command report the burials either to the local
25 authorities or to any of the international organisations?
1 A. I have no knowledge of that.
2 Q. Let's now move to the events of the 13th of July, when you and
3 another fellow officer of yours saw ten dead bodies near your compound,
4 and that's an page 15 of your statement, paragraph 1. Now, tell me
5 first, are you acquainted with Private or officer Dorst [as interpreted]?
6 A. Yes, I know the name of a fellow officer Dorst.
7 Q. Was he together with you on that occasion?
8 A. No. My fellow officer Dorst was not together with me in the
9 situation as it is described here.
10 Q. So these dead male bodies that you found positioned as you
11 described, you don't know if they were Serbs or Muslims, do you?
12 A. I wasn't able to determine that at the time, no.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Petrusic, you put to the witness that on page
14 15 of his statement that he was referring to ten dead people. In the
15 statement I see only the number of nine persons lying on their bellies
16 with their heads bent forward. Could you clarify it.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge. I'm sure I said
18 "nine bodies." It's probably a translation issue. We may listen to the
19 audio recording, but obviously we are talking about the people who are
20 described on this page.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That was only for the clarity of the
22 record. Please proceed.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Colonel, then you go on to say that they wore civilian clothes.
25 Can you tell me, how did you deduce that the wounds on their backs were
1 2 centimetres in diameter?
2 A. That was an estimate at the time. I walked among the bodies and
3 at the time examined the bodies close up, so that's how I made that
5 Q. But, sir, you can only see that visually if you remove the top
6 garment of the victim.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What was your question, Mr. Petrusic?
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Colonel, do you agree with me that the only way to see this is if
10 one removes the top garment of the victim and that it's impossible to see
11 how the wound looks like if you don't remove the clothes?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the clear factual question would be:
13 Did you, Mr. Koster, remove or change the position of the clothes of
14 those persons you saw?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The wounds were
16 visible through their clothes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Then you say that around the bodies you saw pieces of paper,
20 documents of a kind.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any question or are you just quoting from what the
22 statement already says, Mr. Petrusic?
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. From these documents, were you able to establish anything about
25 the identity of the individuals lying in that field?
1 A. No. Several documents looked like they were official documents.
2 I couldn't read them, but some of them bore stamps.
3 Q. Were there any photographs attached to these documents?
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. And then you went on to say that you threw away these documents
6 at the moment when you saw a soldier in the vicinity; is that correct?
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the statement says, Mr. Petrusic.
8 Please put a question to the witness.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So being afraid of the soldier that you saw, you threw away the
11 documents; right?
12 A. No, that's not true. We removed the documents after we had been
13 fired at and were going to return to the position where the Bosnian Serb
14 soldiers were taken away, the refugees, and we thought that a Bosnian
15 Serb soldier had reported on us. And we wanted to be free to issue our
16 report. So that's why we threw the documents away.
17 Q. On the evening of the 12th -- 11th and the morning of the 12th,
18 did you have any information about the fact that your commander,
19 Karremans, was holding meetings with General Mladic in Bratunac, as well
20 as with the Muslim civilian population? Do I need to repeat my question?
21 Did you know --
22 A. Thank you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The first part was inaudible of the answer.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Were you aware of such meetings being held.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that meetings were being
1 held between Karremans and Mladic, and I remember -- I don't remember
2 that meetings with representatives of the Muslim population.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. After the first meeting, did the commander or anyone else from
5 the command tell you that an agreement had been reached for the Muslim
6 population that had already been assembled in Potocari to be transferred
7 to Kladanj?
8 A. I know that it was at a certain point agreed that the Muslim
9 would be transferred, but unfortunately I don't remember the region
11 Q. This knowledge of yours, that the Muslims were going to be
12 transferred, does it pertain to the period prior to the arrival of the
14 A. No. I was aware of this after the period the buses arrived. As
15 far as I recall now, it was after that period.
16 Q. In one of the video-clips you identified two, as you say, Serb
17 soldiers named Mane and Mickey respectively. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes, I remember that.
19 Q. Were they present in the area on both the first and the second
21 A. What exactly do you mean by the first and the second day?
22 Q. Were they present in the area of Potocari inside and outside the
23 compound, or rather, beyond red-and-white tape that you put up after
24 midday 12th of July and after the morning of the 13th of July?
25 A. As far as I remember, I saw the two Serb soldiers I recognised as
1 Mane and Mickey. I met them on the evening of the -- of July 12th. I
2 did not see them on the compound personally to the extent I was there
3 because my duties were outside the compound with the refugees, and I
4 don't recall whether I saw them on July 13th at this time.
5 Q. Just a moment, please. These persons, Mickey and Mane, was he a
6 person of authority, as you put it?
7 A. Whether these were those persons, they were introduced to me as
8 the people who at that time were in charge on behalf of the Bosnian Serb
10 Q. Can you tell us who introduced you in that way -- who introduced
11 them to you in that way?
12 A. I'm sorry, at this time I don't recall.
13 Q. Sir, if I tell you that Mane and Mickey were representatives, or
14 rather, members of the unit called the special brigade of the MUP of
15 Republika Srpska commanded at the time by Ljubisa Borovcanin, would you
16 agree with me that this is a correct statement? Allow me, in accordance
17 with the suggestion my colleague gave me, to clarify that MUP stands for
18 the Ministry of the Interior or the police.
19 A. No. At the time they were introduced to me as the people who
20 were in charge on behalf of the Bosnian Serb military.
21 Q. All the people who were there - we even saw a frame showing
22 soldiers with K-9s, were all these soldiers uniformly dressed; in other
23 words, did they wear identical uniforms?
24 A. As far as I can recall, some of the uniforms varied. So to
25 answer your question as to whether all the uniforms were identical,
1 that's not how I remember it.
2 Q. Can you tell us, were the uniforms worn by Mane and Mickey
3 dominant in comparison with the uniforms worn by other people present?
4 A. I don't remember that properly. I didn't pay careful attention
5 as to whether all uniforms were about the same.
6 Q. When you speak about the separation of men, according to your
7 estimate did that include men of military age?
8 A. As far as I can remember and based on what I saw, I saw
9 middle-aged men at the white house, I saw young men, and yes, I -- I saw
10 some occasional middle-aged men.
11 Q. To the best of your recollection was there only one house that
12 you have just mentioned where the separated men were put up?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Previous response
14 ended with "men of military age."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether there were
16 multiple houses. All I remember is that the men that I described, I saw
17 them at what I've said was the white house.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. On the 13th of July, General Mladic did not enter the UN
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a question, Mr. Petrusic, or would you like
22 to hear from the witness whether he saw General Mladic entering the UN
23 compound on the 13th of July?
24 Could you answer that question, Mr. Koster.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. My question was: Did General Mladic enter the UN compound on the
2 13th of July?
3 A. I can't remember. I was working primarily outside the compound
4 to protect the refugees, so I don't remember and I wouldn't know.
5 Q. But you do remember that he went in the direction of Srebrenica,
6 in his vehicle?
7 A. I didn't hear the translation.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was whether you remember that he
9 went in the direction of Srebrenica in his vehicle.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember that, yes.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you remember that he did not get out of the vehicle?
13 A. When he was passing me, I remember that he did not get out of the
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have completed
16 the cross-examination.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. I even see that you did it
18 within the limits the Chamber said. It took less than half an hour we
19 granted to you.
20 Is there any need for -- yes. Before I give an opportunity to
21 Judge Fluegge to put questions to the witness, would you -- is there any
22 need to re-examine the witness?
23 MR. ELDERKIN: If I may have a couple of minutes on two points.
24 JUDGE ORIE: On a two points.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Very short.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll first -- Judge Fluegge will first put a
2 question to the witness.
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One additional question in relation to Mane and
5 Mickey, what was the colour of their uniforms, if you recall?
6 A. As far as I can remember, Your Honour, the colour of the uniforms
7 was mainly green. I don't remember clearly whether this was mixed with
8 camouflage green, but the person I described as Mickey was wearing a
9 light blue and light lilac jacket, flak jacket, bullet-proof jacket.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, you have an opportunity to re-examine
12 the witness.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
15 Q. Colonel, at page 59 of today's transcript you were questioned
16 about Muslim fighters taking up positions at night at the observation
17 posts, which were DutchBat observation posts. What did you mean when you
18 said the Muslim fighters took up positions at the observation posts?
19 A. By "position," I mean that they were in the area of the
20 observation post, and from the area of the observation post they fired at
21 the Bosnian Serb side, expecting to instigate return fire from that side,
22 from the Bosnian Serb side.
23 Q. And at page 67 of the transcript, you were asked about whether
24 you knew if the nine bodies you found in civilian dress were Serbs or
25 Muslims. First, was the area where you found those bodies within that of
1 the Srebrenica enclave?
2 A. Yes, indeed. That location was within the Srebrenica enclave
3 that the UNPROFOR DutchBat was responsible for.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, looking at that map, could there be
5 any doubt about it? It was 2- or 300 metres from the road.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: That was to set up the next question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: I only have a few more on this point, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. ELDERKIN:
11 Q. Colonel, did you ever see any males in civilian dress whom you
12 believed to be Bosnian Serbs within the area of the Srebrenica enclave up
13 to and including the 13th of July, 1995?
14 A. No. As far as I can remember, I did not see any Bosnian Serbs in
15 civilian dress or armed in the enclave. I didn't meet any.
16 Q. And did you see any Muslim fighters in Potocari or around the
17 area of the bodies after the time on the night of the 10th of July when
18 you had the meeting with the four ABiH fighters?
19 A. No. At the time I didn't see any Muslim fighters in the area of
20 the location where we found the nine bodies.
21 Q. That's all I have. Thank you very much, Colonel.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
24 Further Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one question for you triggered by one
1 of the questions by Mr. Elderkin. You said:
2 "As far as I can remember, I did not see any Bosnian Serb in
3 civilian dress or armed in the enclave."
4 If you would see a person just in passing, how would you know
5 whether he's a Serb or a Muslim?
6 A. I can't distinguish them.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore if you said I never saw a Serb civilian
8 in the enclave, if I understand your answer now well, that you say I
9 won't know whether I've ever seen any of them because I could not
10 distinguish between civilians being Muslim or Serb?
11 A. That's what I meant by that. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions triggered by those raised by
13 the Judge?
14 Mr. Petrusic, no further questions?
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Then, Mr. Koster, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to
18 thank you very much for coming to this courtroom and for having answered
19 all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,
20 and I'd like to -- you're excused and you may follow the usher.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber thinks it has dealt with all the
24 outstanding procedural matters at this moment, but, Mr. Lukic, you may
25 not agree with me.
1 MR. LUKIC: Unfortunately not, Your Honour. We have to inform
2 you about uploaded videos so if you -- it's actually pages from
3 65 ter Exhibit 19814, so if you want us to do it in written submission we
4 can inform.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't know how formal it is. If it is purely
6 practical then --
7 MR. LUKIC: It's purely practical.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- then an informal communication with Chambers
9 staff would do, of course to be copied to the Prosecution. And we don't
10 have to decide immediately on that at this moment, so then we leave it at
11 that --
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- and it's now on the record that we will receive
14 messages from you.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since we're still trying to find our way with these
17 videos, apart from sending messages to Chambers staff, both parties are
18 invited to communicate with the representative of the Registry, so as to
19 sort out what has now been uploaded so that Madam Registrar is able to
20 assign numbers to it which -- on which of course we'll then later decide
21 on admission.
22 Anything else? If not, I'd like to thank just now before the
23 summer recess all those who are assisting us in our work, that is,
24 security, translators, transcribers, everyone who plays a role in the
25 smooth continuation of these proceedings, and perhaps for today a special
1 thanks for our guest interpreters.
2 We adjourn and we will resume on Tuesday, the 21st of August, at
3 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom III. We stand adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of
6 August, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.