1 Wednesday, 22 August 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic, we are -- we are in Court. Please
6 take ...
7 Mr. Mladic.
8 THE ACCUSED: Yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sit down.
10 Mr. Lukic, may you please make sure that you control your client.
11 Madam Registrar, would you please -- Mr. Mladic.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom. I'm sorry
16 about all the confusion at the beginning.
17 And thank you, Madam Registrar, for calling the case.
18 I am made to understand that there is a new member of staff on
19 the side of the Defence, and for that reason I'm going to ask just for
20 the parties to state their appearances for the day, starting with you,
21 Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution, I
23 am Dermot Groome. I am with Edward Jeremy and we're being assisted today
24 by Ms. Janet Stewart and Ms. Bojana Vuleta.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And on the Defence side.
1 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic,
2 Miodrag Stojanovic, Milos Saljic, Sasa Lukic, and Dan Ivetic will be --
3 is with us, sorry, but on the wrong place.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 Before we call the witness, I believe that the parties have --
6 well, the Prosecution has an issue to raise, so does the Chamber, but
7 let's hear you first, Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Your Honours, yesterday evening we received notice of the
10 documents the Defence intends to put to Mr. van Lynden. Many of these
11 documents are original B/C/S documents for which there is no English
12 translation in e-court nor has one been provided by other means by the
13 Defence. Out of the approximately 40 documents, over 30 we are unable to
14 find English translations for. So prior to the continuation of the
15 cross-examination, the Prosecution request that Mr. Lukic state how he
16 intends to use these documents with the witness, particularly in light of
17 the evidence provided by the witness yesterday that he does not speak
19 Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: To be honest with you, Your Honours, I didn't know
22 that we have that many untranslated documents, especially since all of
23 them were acquired through Tribunal's electronic systems and were
24 actually found either on EDS or among our documents. So I'm really not
25 aware. We'll see if I'm going to use any of untranslated documents,
1 because we enumerated much more documents that we are going really to use
2 with this witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's -- that may very well be so, Mr. Lukic,
4 but, you know, it is your responsibility as a cross-examining counsel to
5 make sure that whatever documents you are going to use are available in
6 the official languages of the Tribunal, particularly because you do know
7 that you opposite number and the witness do not speak Serbo-Croatian.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I will do my best to avoid using
9 documents that are not translated.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much. The Chamber
11 appreciates that, Mr. Lukic.
12 May the Chamber may then move into discussing what it has as its
13 own issues.
14 Yesterday in court, the Chamber put on the record its instruction
15 of 30th May 2012 for the Prosecution to review its 92 bis motion for
16 Witness RM057 in light of a number of adjudicated facts. The Chamber
17 also sought an update from the Prosecution on that matter. The
18 Prosecution indicated informally that it may be able to provide this
19 update today.
20 Mr. Groome, is the Prosecution in a position to do so?
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]... hear you.
23 MR. GROOME: Yesterday evening, Your Honour, I reviewed this
24 issue with respect to RM057. The bulk of the evidence this witness would
25 be able to provide this Chamber, should his evidence be adduced, is in
1 fact covered by the Trial Chamber having taken judicial notice of
2 previously adjudicated facts.
3 The Prosecution is still in the process of assessing whether this
4 witness's evidence related to the identification of victims is necessary
5 to meet our burden with respect to establishing the death of specific
6 witnesses. This assessment can only be completed once an expert we have
7 retained completes her work. In light of this, the Prosecution will be
8 filing this week an application to withdraw the applications now pending
9 before the Chamber with respect to RM057 and will, at the appropriate
10 time in the future, file a notice that we will either not adduce this
11 evidence or the evidence of this witness in reliance on adjudicated facts
12 or should it be necessary an application to adduce that portion of the
13 witness's evidence that is necessary or remains necessary to establish
14 proof of death under Rule 92 bis. And that will be filed before the end
15 of the week, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Groome.
17 Next, again, yesterday, the Chamber asked for an update in
18 relation to MFIs D27 to D37 tendered through Witness Schmitz for which a
19 B/C/S translation is missing. The Defence submitted it could not
20 approach CLSS for a B/C/S translation. The Prosecution submitted it may
21 have B/C/S translations of some of these exhibits and that it would
22 further discuss this matter with the Defence.
23 Mr. Groome, are you able to update us on whether you have had any
24 discussions with the Defence and, if so, what the outcome of them are.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, on behalf of the Prosecution,
1 Ms. Stewart, I believe, met with Mr. Lukic prior to the Court or the
2 Chamber entering today, and I will defer to my colleague to maybe update
3 the Chamber on this matter.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: What I can say, Your Honours, is that Ms. Stewart was
6 surprised, the same way as we are, that we cannot ask translation into
7 B/C/S from CLSS since their explanation is --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber is equally surprised.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Since the official languages of this Tribunal
10 are English and French and they don't want to translate into B/C/S.
11 Unless they changed their policy in last two, three weeks.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. -- Mr. Lukic, I'm going to ask you to please
14 advise Mr. Mladic we are in court and that if he does have anything to
15 talk to you about or to anyone of your team, he must do so as softly and
16 quietly as possible and in an unintrusive manner. Please keep him under
17 control. Okay.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome, I saw you standing up. I don't know
20 whether you had any contribution to make on this issue.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, simply to observe in the ten years I've
22 been practicing before this Tribunal this is the first I have ever become
23 aware that CLSS would not translate a document. Perhaps it might be
24 worth the Chamber making inquiry with CLSS to see has there been some
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. That's what Judge Fluegge and I were just
2 talking about right now as you stood up, because we are equally surprised
3 by this kind of conduct.
4 Be that as it may, are there any strong objections from the
5 Prosecution for admission of these documents.
6 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I believe you're tending them for
9 MR. LUKIC: I think so. We did tender them --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: They are so admitted.
11 MR. LUKIC: Okay, okay.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 We now may call the witness into the courtroom.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. van Lynden.
17 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hope you had a restful night yesterday.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Before I turn you over to Mr. Lukic
21 may the record once again, Madam Registrar, please show that the Chamber
22 continues to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis for the same reasons as were
23 mentioned yesterday.
24 And secondly to you, Mr. van Lynden, to remind you - I know that
25 you do not need any reminding but I do so. I'm obliged to do so - that
1 you're still bound by the declaration made at the beginning of your
2 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
4 WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed]
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the witness is yours.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, good morning, Mr. van Lynden.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Do you have your statement before you?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. We left off at paragraph 26 yesterday.
14 You say you had never seen with your own eyes anybody killed by a
15 sniper but you saw civilians die soon after they were shot by a sniper,
16 and you describe a case involving two men and one woman, all dressed in
17 civilian clothing.
18 Could we agree that in the time described here there were a lot
19 of armed people wearing civilian clothes in Sarajevo?
20 A. There were armed people wearing civilian clothes in Sarajevo in
21 July 1992, but there were also uniformed. And at that particular scene,
22 what I remember were actually people in police uniforms.
23 Q. Thank you. Could we also agree that you do not know the
24 ethnicity of the wounded people or the identity of those who shot them?
25 A. Ethnicity, you actually mean the religion.
1 Q. [In English] Yes.
2 A. Because ethnicity, everybody in Bosnia, as far as I am aware, was
3 a Slav. No, I don't. When we -- we -- we followed them to the -- they
4 were taken -- two men as I recall, were taken to the morgue of the
5 Kosevo hospital, the academic hospital of Sarajevo, and I do not recall
6 that they had papers on them identifying who they were.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll now move to paragraph 29 of
8 your statement.
9 You said during the periods I stayed in Pale there was
10 electricity cuts. There were electricity cuts at time but there was
11 always running water.
12 Pale is a small place so I'd like you to compare the situation in
13 the parts of Sarajevo held by the Serbs regarding electricity, for
15 A. I didn't stay in the areas of Sarajevo held by the Serbs. I was
16 brought there only during the day, but I stayed at night in Pale. These
17 were day visits. And whether they had electricity or not, I -- I cannot
18 now recall. I didn't stay there in a house. And we were taken to
19 military positions there.
20 Q. So you don't know what the situation was like with water either
21 in those parts of town.
22 A. During my visits there, I do not recall that those who
23 accompanied me from the Bosnian Serb government, because we were always
24 accompanied, made any references to the lack of water or electricity in
25 those parts of Sarajevo held by the Bosnian Serbs.
1 Q. That doesn't mean there was electricity or running water;
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now paragraph 30. You talk about nutrition in war and how it
5 affects the population. You talk about food supplies.
6 You personally were not able to make any inquiries; correct?
7 A. No. We made inquiries with the UNHCR and with the Bosnian
8 government as to food supplies. This was in Sarajevo, the parts of
9 Sarajevo held by the Bosnian government, and we spoke to experts at the
10 academic hospital, also at the former military hospital, people who were
11 experts in -- in nutrition. I think I mention in my statement also the
12 head of the maternity part of the Kosevo hospital who gave us figures on,
13 for instance, still-born babies and that the babies that were born were
14 of less weight than was normally, and therefore they thought those were
15 the consequences, the direct consequences of the civilian population not
16 having the same nutrition as they had done in peacetime.
17 Q. What was the situation in the Serbian parts of Sarajevo?
18 A. Again, we were not in a position to do the same research there.
19 We spent -- specifically the research that I mention here in this
20 paragraph, Your Honours, was done in November, December, 1992.
21 In September 1992 when I worked from Pale, we did ask and we
22 actually saw the distribution of, for instance, money to pensioners, and
23 we filmed this, and also that there were certain shops open for the
24 civilian population. I would immediately say that the amount of pension
25 that pensioners could get was very small, that their situation was very
1 difficult but we saw, for instance, in one particular shop in Grbavica
2 that there were oranges on sale, and this was absolutely not the case in
3 the other side of the front lines in Sarajevo.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I do not want to interfere with your
5 cross-examination, but just for the Chamber's understanding of your
6 cross-examination, is it your case that there's a distinction to be made
7 between Serb civilians and non-Serb civilians, or is it your case that
8 civilians were in want, on the one hand, and at the expense of or because
9 of the conduct of the armies, either army, whatever the army may be?
10 My question really is: Does it matter whether they are Serbs, or
11 does it -- or what --
12 MR. LUKIC: Exactly Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: What matters is it not that they are civilian.
14 MR. LUKIC: Our position is that division shouldn't have been
15 done or both parts should be examined and compared. But obviously it
16 wasn't done at that time. That's -- that's what we want to point out to
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In the same paragraph as you mentioned, you say you visited the
21 head of the maternity word in the Kosevo hospital. I'd like to ask you:
22 Did you seek the same information on the Serbian side? Were you
23 interested at all in the position of the civilian population in the parts
24 of town held by the Army of Republika Srpska?
25 A. We did. We asked in Pale. The -- we were taken to one hospital,
1 not within Sarajevo, but -- I have to try to recall the name. I think it
2 was called Sokolac. This was a -- had been a mental institution but
3 there was a new wing built that was turned into a hospital and we were
4 taken there and we spoke to the doctors there. But from what we gathered
5 there, and what we saw, the wounded that were being treated there were
6 all Bosnian Serb military.
7 Q. Precisely. What about the civilians in Sarajevo? You did not do
8 any research into their situation, did you, in the parts of town held by
9 the Army of Republika Srpska?
10 A. I have just said that we had requested but that this request was
11 not fulfilled by the authorities in Pale.
12 Q. I know it's been a long time, but do you know from whom you made
13 this request? Was it in writing? Could we locate that letter in your
14 correspondence? Or did you make a verbal request?
15 A. We didn't make any requests in writing. The requests were made
16 in conversations that my field producer and I had with Mr. Karadzic at --
17 at his headquarters in Pale. We had various meetings -- they were not
18 official interviews, they were just meetings, and there we put our
19 requests as to what we wanted to see and who we wanted to meet and what
20 was possible. And some of those requests were met, including the
21 interview that we had with Mr. Mladic, and certain requests were not met.
22 And although we were taken into Grbavica, we had asked specifically to
23 look into also the plight of the civilian population, and that was not a
24 request that was met.
25 Q. Now paragraph 31 of your statement, please.
1 You say in May 1992:
2 "On my second or third day in Sarajevo, I went with my cameraman
3 to what had been the former JNA hospital ..."
4 Was there any damage to the facade of the hospital when you just
6 A. As I say in my statement, it was very badly shot up.
7 Q. Did you hear it was shot at while it was occupied by members of
8 the JNA?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. The hospital where you stayed, the former military or
11 State Hospital which is its alternative name, was in the vicinity of the
12 Marsal Tito barracks in Sarajevo; correct?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And it was close to the front line near Grbavica; right?
15 A. Yes. I would judge the front lines to have been about 500 metres
17 Q. Now paragraph 33 of your statement:
18 "While I was at the State Hospital, I never saw any evidence that
19 Bosnian snipers fired from there."
20 You do not know whether snipers fired from there when you were
21 not at the hospital, to begin with; right?
22 A. Well, clearly, I don't know for concern, no. We did ask
23 repeatedly. As I mentioned to the Court yesterday, I was responsible
24 also for the welfare of the television crew I brought with me, and
25 bringing them to a location that was also used by the military would
1 obviously put their lives under a greater threat than they already were
2 than being in a war zone, and I, at no time, was told that those
3 buildings were used by snipers of the Bosnian army. And we also checked
4 for any kind of evidence in the form of spent cartridges to see, and we
5 never found any evidence of any sort.
6 Q. Is it your evidence today that you inspected the entire hospital
7 to make sure? And how often did you do that?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where does that come from, Mr. Lukic?
9 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, Your Honour, what? Where does it come from.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Inspection. The witness has never spoken about
11 inspection. He says he just checked for casings of cartridges.
12 MR. LUKIC: I'm asking him how often and where. Where he
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can ask that question. But to say, Is it your
15 evidence today that you made inspections, you're suggesting that that is
16 the evidence he has made, he has given.
17 Line 24 of page 12. "Is it your evidence today that you
18 inspected the entire hospital to make sure?"
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is not the evidence that he has given.
21 MR. LUKIC: Okay. I'll --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Rephrase the question.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Tell us, then, how you checked that
25 hospital building and how often. Which floors did you inspect; which
1 wards; who did the inspection?
2 A. During the periods that I was in Sarajevo, specifically in 1992,
3 we were in the hospital practically every single -- from late afternoon
4 onwards and then throughout the night.
5 We made our base, as I have testified yesterday, right on the top
6 floor of the building where there was no one else. There were -- the
7 wards were empty. Indeed, the wards on all the top floors of the
8 hospital were empty. They were no longer being used. Only the lower
9 floors were in use.
10 On the top floor, of course, we looked around, because we -- we
11 were working on both sides of the building. We, of course, also entered
12 at casualty every day and saw the situation there. I didn't go on an
13 inspection. This is a war zone, and I was working, but we did check the
14 building. I did check the building on several occasions. Also, the
15 parts of the building that are not the main building that we were in but
16 other parts sometimes because we wanted to film damage that had been done
17 by shelling. Sometimes because we were meeting certain doctors as, for
18 instance, the nutritional specialists that we talked about earlier, they
19 were in another part of the building with laboratories there, and we
20 talked to them. And I always made a point of asking everyone I met and
21 who worked in the building. And throughout the war, there were Muslims,
22 Catholics and Orthodox working within the former military hospital,
23 whether it had been used for military purposes. I had to, also, because
24 I was responsible for my crew and had to keep them as safe as possible in
25 that war zone.
1 Q. Was there any sniper fire, fire from tanks or mortars from the
2 Marsal Tito barracks, which was very close to the hospital?
3 A. I never witnessed any fire from tanks or mortars. From the
4 Marsal Tito barracks?
5 Q. [In English] Yes.
6 A. I never saw tank fire or mortar fire from the Marsal Tito
7 barracks. You're referring to the period after they had been evacuated
8 by the Bosnian army -- Bosnian Serb army.
9 I did on one occasion see not sniper fire but machine-gun fire
10 emanating from one window of the Marsal Tito barracks. This is in -- in
11 reference to the incident that we have actually already talked about in
12 paragraph 26. And I actually say there, I then heard shots coming from
13 the Marsal Tito barracks and I could see gun smoke from a weapon being
14 fired from that.
15 It was not a sniper. It was a machine-gun. And on that
16 occasion, I think it was giving covering fire for those trying to recover
17 the bodies in the street.
18 But back to your original question, no, I did not see tank or
19 mortar fire from the Marsal Tito barracks.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Did you see a tank firing from behind
21 Marsal Tito barracks, between the barracks and the railway station?
22 A. No. And if we had, we would have filmed it. So that my answer
23 is no.
24 Q. There is military documentation about that, but I'm not going to
25 show it because you've never seen these documents.
1 At any rate, we can agree that nobody ever made any reports to
2 you about the points in the city of Sarajevo where the soldiers of the
3 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fired from.
4 A. No. That's -- we can't agree on that because I was actually
5 taken to certain front lines by the Bosnian army at certain parts of --
6 of Sarajevo. Obviously not everywhere, but I was taken, on certain
7 occasions, to certain front lines where we did film. For instance --
8 Q. Thank you. I beg your pardon. Just a moment, please. Perhaps I
9 wasn't clear enough in putting my question. Perhaps I did not put it
11 You did not receive information, daily information, that would
12 make it possible for you to know where the members of the army in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina were shooting from. Do you know all the positions in
14 town from which the members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were
16 A. No. But you would never know that in any war on either side. I
17 wouldn't know that from the Bosnian Serb side either. I wouldn't have
18 known that in Beirut on either side of the green line. One doesn't get
19 that kind of information from any army.
20 Q. Precisely. Thank you.
21 Multiple rocket-launchers are quite easily noticeable. Did you
22 see any in Sarajevo; and did you see any, say, in Grancevica? One was
23 there. Did you see any firing at Serb positions?
24 A. During my time in Sarajevo, I never saw a multiple
25 rocket-launcher. Again, if we had done, we would have filmed it.
1 Q. While you were in hospital, you say that that is where your crew
2 was, and you say that you were responsible for them. You consider that
3 hospital to be safe, right, that's the explanation you gave us,
4 especially the upper floors?
5 A. No. It's a building in a war zone, so nowhere is safe.
6 My principal interest in being there is that we could work as
7 effectively as possible from that building because it afforded as a view,
8 as I described yesterday in court.
9 The other reason why it was for us a relatively comfortable place
10 to work is because it was a hospital. There was water and electricity
11 there. I personally believe that working on the top floor, as I think I
12 also explained to the Court yesterday, was, I believe, relatively safe
13 because if that building was going to be targeted, people would aim at
14 the middle rather than at the top floor.
15 Q. And were any of your crew members ever wounded? Were you
16 personally wounded in that hospital?
17 A. None of my crew members nor I were ever wounded in the hospital,
19 Q. Thank God.
20 Also, in paragraph 35. 35. You said that from the area around
21 Sarajevo multiple rocket-launcher fire came from the top of the mountains
22 around Sarajevo and falling very close to the hospital --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we did not hear the end of
24 the question.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, the interpreters did not hear the end
1 of the question.
2 MR. LUKIC: Sorry --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The interpreters did not hear the end of the
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mm-hm.
6 Q. My question was: The hospital was never hit from these artillery
7 pieces; right?
8 A. Whilst I was in the building, I am not aware of the hospital ever
9 being hit by multiple rocket fire. No. The only thing - and I do
10 mention this - that there was in November 1992 a large explosion and one
11 of the lift shafts was hit. I can't verify what it was hit by, but
12 others told us that they thought that this was a tank shell. But I
13 didn't personally see that. I was in the building.
14 Q. From these upper floors of the hospital, did you see that the
15 launchers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were positioned behind the
16 Marsal Tito barracks and were firing from there for quite a while?
17 A. Well, you would have to be more precise as to the dates that this
18 occurred. And, no, again, I think I have already answered this question.
19 No, they didn't. And if they had while we were there, we would have been
20 able to film it, and we were never able to film something like that.
21 So it didn't occur at least in the periods in Sarajevo when I was
23 MR. LUKIC: Just a second.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You said:
2 "In my opinion, it was probably a tank shell because the local
3 people who saw it fall on the hospital said that it fell directly which
4 is characteristic for -- for tank shells."
5 First of all, if there was a trajectory, you did not see it
6 yourself. You heard about it from others; right?
7 A. I've already stated that, yes.
8 Q. We can also agree that you are not a military expert, although
9 you did your military service for all of two years. You were never a
10 member of a tank crew. So these are two questions: You are not a
11 military expert; right? And you were never a member of a tank crew; is
12 that right?
13 A. Depends how you define military expert. I spent 23 years going
14 to war zones watching militias, guerillas, and armies fighting wars. I
15 have never been a member of a tank crew. But I have been with tanks when
16 they fired, during the Iran-Iraq war and again during the first Gulf War,
17 all of which preceded the war in Bosnia.
18 Q. Very well. Let's go back to this now.
19 Do you consider yourself to be a military expert, qualified
20 enough to testify in an expert manner about military matters?
21 A. I would call myself a war correspondent with a lot of experience
22 in war, but to say that I was a military expert with expertise on every
23 single kind of weaponry, no, I wouldn't.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van Lynden, have you been called here as an
25 expert witness, as a military expert?
1 THE WITNESS: No -- not to my knowledge, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Paragraph 36 now, please.
5 You say that you crossed the front line. That was allowed by
6 both sides, wasn't it, by the Army of Republika Srpska and the
7 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. It was.
9 Q. Could civilians move about that way?
10 A. By that stage of the war, not as far as I'm aware, and I did not
11 witness that, apart from on one occasion, which is --
12 Q. You heard about that. Thank you.
13 Could the Serbs leave Sarajevo?
14 A. Those Serbs living in Grbavica and the territory held by the
15 Bosnian Serbs, yes. Those within the part of Sarajevo held by the
16 Bosnians, not immediately, although I am aware of certain exchanges being
17 made, and we, in fact, even filmed one of a Muslim woman crossing over
18 from Grbavica into Sarajevo proper. And I am aware of others, including
19 certain members of -- who became senior members of Mr. Karadzic's staff
20 who had initially been in Sarajevo and in the June, July, August were
21 able to leave.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry. Mr. Lukic, may I interrupt here.
23 Mr. van Lynden, at page 19, line 25, you're giving an answer to a
24 question which said, the question was:
25 "Could civilians move about that way?"
1 And you give an answer by saying:
2 "By that stage of the war, not as far as I am aware, and I did
3 not witness that, apart from on one occasion which is --"
4 And then you were interrupted by Mr. Lukic who said:
5 "You heard about that. Thank you. "
6 And I don't see anything that suggests that you heard anything
7 from your answer. So I think, for that reason, I would like to make sure
8 that you complete your answer.
9 Can you answer that question, please, fully.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. What I was going to say was that
11 when in September 1992 we were taken to Grbavica, we actually witnessed
12 and were able to film a Bosnian Muslim woman. We were told -- didn't
13 actually personally meet her, but she was crossing from Grbavica on a
14 small bridge to the other side, over -- across the river Miljacka into
15 the other side of Sarajevo. That is one occasion.
16 We were told by the Bosnian Serb soldiers that we were with that
17 this had been arranged. I imagine that more of such instances did occur
18 but that we were obviously not always there to film them.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: What had been arranged, the crossing.
20 THE WITNESS: That this one women, a quite elderly women as I
21 recall, would be allowed to leave the Bosnian Serb-held territory and
22 cross over into the territory held by the Bosnian government.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: That completes your answer.
24 THE WITNESS: That completes my answer, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] My question, once again, probably had not been
4 put well enough, because this is what I wanted to ask you.
5 I wanted to ask you whether thousands of Serbs who were in the
6 territory that was held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were able to
7 leave that part of the Sarajevo and go to the territory that was held by
8 the Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. I do not know the precise numbers that were able to leave. I am
10 aware, as I already said, that certain people, including people who
11 became senior staff members of Mr. Karadzic were able to leave Sarajevo.
12 The precise manner of their leaving, I am not aware of. Whether they had
13 do this by night or whether there was agreement between the two sides
14 that certain people could leave and other people could enter. I don't
15 know how many people left. I am aware that later on in the war quite a
16 lot of the civilians living in Sarajevo tried to get out by crossing the
17 airport, which was then under UN control and getting out of Sarajevo in
18 that manner. But, again, I don't have figures as to how many people
19 tried or managed that.
20 Q. You were in Sarajevo for a long time. Did you hear who it was
21 that was preventing civilians from leaving Sarajevo, regardless of
22 whether these were Serbs or Croats or Muslims? Were they prevented from
23 doing so by Croats, Serbs, or the Muslim authorities?
24 Do you have any knowledge about that?
25 A. Well, it was a war zone. It's a front line of a besieged city.
1 You can't just cross that on foot.
2 As I also testified yesterday, just crossing initially in a car,
3 later on, we had armoured Land Rovers because every time we crossed front
4 lines we were shot at as well. It's a basic rule in any war: You don't
5 cross front lines. And for civilians caught up in the situation, it was
6 obviously very, very difficult. And no, I'm not -- if -- if there were
7 certain deals done I am aware of that but the precise nature of the deals
8 were not revealed to me by either sides in the conflict.
9 Q. As you've testified yourself there were periods when there were
10 cease-fires. Actually, I'm going to be specific on this.
11 Do you know that the Muslim authorities in Sarajevo did not allow
12 civilians to leave the city of Sarajevo, irrespective of their ethnicity?
13 A. No, I don't know that because -- I know of civilians who were
14 allowed to leave Sarajevo.
15 Q. You are speaking of a few civilians, but I'm talking about tens
16 of thousands of civilians who wanted to leave Sarajevo and were not
17 allowed to do so. If you know about it, please tell us about it; if you
18 do not, we're just going to move on.
19 A. In that case, I would suggest that you move on.
20 Q. [In English] Thank you.
21 [Interpretation] You were in Srebrenica, too. Did you hear about
22 that from civilians there, that the authorities from Sarajevo would not
23 allow civilians from Srebrenica to leave Srebrenica?
24 A. Your Honours, I was in Srebrenica one day, if I'm right in
25 November 1992, with the first UN aid convoy. We were allowed to enter.
1 We were there for a number of hours. We did speak to some of the
2 civilians there. These were all people who had fled to Srebrenica
3 because they had been hounded out of the other towns and villages of
4 Eastern Bosnia. They had sought refuge there. I didn't meet anyone in
5 Srebrenica who said that the Bosnian authorities wouldn't let them leave.
6 They were surrounded by what they considered to be their enemies. And,
7 therefore, I'm sure that if they could have got out of their situation
8 living in a besieged enclave with too little food and very, very little
9 medical supplies at all - there was no hospital in Srebrenica just a
10 clinic - they would have wanted to leave. But I have never heard, at
11 that stage, from any of them that this was the Bosnian authorities that
12 were stopping them from doing so.
13 Q. In Bosnia, you hadn't heard of overcrowded UNPROFOR buses and
14 trucks that civilians from Srebrenica were trying to get onto in order to
15 leave Srebrenica. Also, you did not hear that such convoys, were,
16 afterwards, banned by the Sarajevo authorities. Also, did you not hear
17 that they had no problem whatsoever with the Serb army and Serb
18 authorities, that that they would allow them to leave Srebrenica. You
19 never heard of any of that?
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: A number of questions in that, Mr. Lukic. I'm not
21 quite sure which one you want the witness to answer.
22 Could you take them one by one, please. Start with the
23 overcrowded UNPROFOR buses.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did you hear of civilians from Srebrenica being taken out of
1 Srebrenica by UNPROFOR on trucks and they were so overcrowded that some
2 persons even died in the process?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, is it possible to get a time-frame
5 about when we are speaking.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 [Interpretation] During 1993, the spring of 1993.
9 THE WITNESS: My first comment would be is you asked me if I had
10 been to Srebrenica and I answered that I had went in with the very first
11 UN convoy that was allowed after being held up repeatedly by the Bosnian
12 Serb army into Srebrenica. There was no case on that occasion of any
13 civilian getting on any truck. Absolutely not. The convoy came in.
14 They unloaded. They only had flour with them, as I recall, and then they
15 drove back to -- back to Zvornik, if I --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: What year was that, Mr. van Lynden?
17 THE WITNESS: Late 1992, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Not 1993 that the question is about.
19 THE WITNESS: The first question I was asked by Mr. Lukic was
20 that I had been, myself, to Srebrenica.
21 In relation to the events of 1993 [Realtime transcript read in
22 error "1992"], I was not in Srebrenica in 1993 [Realtime transcript read
23 in error "1992"]. I did manage to go to Gorazde. I was not in a
24 position because we were ourselves in the field reporting --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, Mr. van Lynden. I'm going to -- the
1 transcription on the record says:
2 In relation to 1992. I was not in Srebrenica in 1992."
3 I thought I heard something different.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, in 1992, I did enter Srebrenica. In 1993 I
5 did not.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: This sentence in relation to 1990 [sic] we were
7 talking about 1993, right?
8 THE WITNESS: 1993, yes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. That's what I'm trying to correct
10 because the record is 1992 when you're talking 1993.
11 So you are saying in relation to 1993, you were not in Srebrenica
12 in 1993?
13 THE WITNESS: Correct, Your Honour.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'm asking you as a war correspondent whether you heard about
16 that and whether you reported on it, if you had heard about it.
17 A. We did hear about it. But I heard about it after the fact
18 because I was elsewhere reporting on other matters.
19 As far as I am aware, a television crew and I think a British
20 television crew was in Srebrenica at the time and those pictures were
21 shown. But, as I said, I was not in a position to watch them because I
22 was in another part of the country where there was no electricity and no
23 television to watch.
24 So we were aware of it but later, at a later stage.
25 Q. Since you heard that they were leaving, did you also hear that
1 civilians were forbidden from leaving Srebrenica and that it was the
2 Muslim authorities in Sarajevo that had forbidden them to do that?
3 A. As far as I am aware - but, again, I didn't cover this
4 personally - civilians were allowed to leave at a certain stage and
5 whether they were later forbidden to and whom they were forbidden by, I
6 am not aware. But I would add here that I was in another enclave,
7 Gorazde, at just about the same period that you are referring to in 1993,
8 and there I personally witnessed every single night civilians from within
9 the Gorazde enclave walking through the Serbs' lines, besieging them to
10 their own lines, and they were allowed to do that. Most of those
11 civilians did that to get food and then returned the following night.
12 But many, specifically the older and the young, were then taken by the
13 Bosnian army to refugee camps in Central Bosnia.
14 As far as I am aware that was never stopped. I never saw anyone
15 from the Bosnian authorities stopping them doing that.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I see that the time for the first break
18 is upon us. Before the Chamber does rise, I would ask -- the next
19 witness is on stand by. It would be appreciated if the Prosecution could
20 have some indication of how long the examination of this witness is
21 likely to be and when the Chamber would like to have the next witness in
22 the waiting-room ready to take the stand.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, are you able to help us?
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. When I was calculating how much
25 time I needed for this witness, my rough calculation was 14 hours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] 14 hours.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes. So I used two and a half hours by now.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is what the Chamber has sort of guesstimated
4 as cross-examining period for a witness that was taken for 90 minutes by
5 the Prosecution.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. LUKIC: We don't have actually strict guidance, as you know,
8 at least yet. So before -- half an hour we were supposed to have two and
9 a half hours of cross-examination. This gentleman has a lot of videos,
10 and we really cannot cover all this pretty long statement.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But if -- for 30 minutes, you have two and
12 a half hours, you wouldn't have 14 hours for 90 minutes.
13 MR. LUKIC: We would have seven and a half hours, but ...
14 I ask for your leave to cross this witness longer than it was
15 supposed to be.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you ask Mr. Mladic to understand that we are
17 in court.
18 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know, if he doesn't understand, the Chamber,
20 at some stage is going to get him out of the court. May he please
21 understand that, because we are in court. We demand order in court,
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please try to tell him that during the break.
25 We're going to take a break, and we will come to decide on this
1 issue when we come back.
2 We'll come back at 20 past.
3 Court adjourned.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Recess taken at 10.03 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may, before the witness comes in.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mm-hm.
10 MR. LUKIC: If we can go to a private session for a while.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 1407-1408 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
5 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: At the end of the previous session, Your Honours, you
7 asked me why do we need more time for cross of this witness. And, first
8 of all, this witness was scheduled for hour and a half in direct, apart
9 from his statement, and, actually, he spend two hours in that direct.
10 And two and a half hours were envisaged if five documents were introduced
11 through the witness, and if the Prosecution spends half an hour leading
12 that witness.
13 We have, with this witness, I -- because we had several lists,
14 but I think that we have around 20 or more exhibits, mostly videos with
15 this witness, introduced through him, and the Prosecution spent two hours
16 leading him. So we are not even with only our calculations, we are not
17 on seven and a half but at ten hours, since it's four times more than the
18 original ones. Plus extra evidence introduced through the witness.
19 So I would kindly ask Your Honours to have this in mind when
20 deciding how much time you will allocate to our team to cross-examine
21 this witness.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: First of all, let me say to you I'm not quite sure
23 how you come to ten hours. If we use the mathematical calculation that
24 you used --
25 MR. LUKIC: Two hours and four times more than half an hour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Two hours, times four; I understand that. But you
2 also understand that this is not a hard and fast rule. This is a case by
3 case situation.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you have to look at how the cross-examination
6 is going. You spent quite a bit of time yesterday cross-examining this
7 witness about the war in Afghanistan, the relevance of which the Chamber
8 did ask you about, and you indicated that you wanted to show the
9 relationship between the witness and the Mujahedin, which we never saw,
10 okay? Today, you're asking him questions about whether he is a military
11 expert. Again, he is not called as a military expert, and I don't know
12 where you're going with those kind of questions.
13 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted him to say: No I'm not. Then he
14 elaborated --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You know he is not called as a military expert.
16 MR. LUKIC: But he acts as one. He wants to explain us many
17 military issues, so I just wanted to establish that he is not, and
18 tomorrow when we address his testimony we have clearly that even he knows
19 he is [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you can tell him. If you cross-examine in a
21 focussed manner, you tell him: You are not an expert -- a military
22 expert, are you not? And that disposes of the question. You don't waste
23 time on that, okay?
24 I'm not quite sure whether it is your intention, Mr. Lukic, to go
25 paragraph by paragraph through this lengthy statement, and are you saying
1 that you are disputing every little paragraph or are you saying there are
2 issues that you dispute and that you are going to go into and look at.
3 You've just gone by paragraph by paragraph with this witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: Because he is addressing many issues, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that he may be addressing many
6 issues. But are they all issues that you take issue -- on a paragraph --
7 MR. LUKIC: Not all of them, of course. Not all of them.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're going through the paragraphs seriatim.
9 MR. LUKIC: I don't know how else should I go through them,
10 unless that --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you would go through the points that you
12 differ with or those points that you would like to elucidate or those
13 points that you dispute.
14 Anyway, the Chamber will give you the next two sessions.
15 MR. LUKIC: Cross of this witness?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: It's not possible, Your Honour. Trust me.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You go ahead, and let's see how you go.
19 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be called in.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you carry on, Mr. Lukic, something has just
24 been brought to the attention of the Chamber, which I would like to make
25 you aware of.
1 It's a -- it's -- it's a note written to the Registrar here. It
3 "As I'm sure you are already aware, the accused has again made
4 comments about the witness and even though the witness is coping well
5 with this, he informed me that he feels it quite inappropriate that a
6 witness is subjected to comments and accusations by the accused in the
7 courtroom and he wishes the Chamber to be aware of his feelings on this
9 Now, both of Judge Fluegge and I do not understand
10 Serbo-Croatian. This is a remark that comes from now -- I think this is
11 from Victims and Witness Section. This is a -- I'm asking you to attend
12 to this, as you understand the language better than we do, and, again,
13 warn your client that he must desist from making comments about the
14 witness, particularly in the courtroom while the case is going on.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 You may proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Can we look at document 1D137 in e-court,
21 And before we get the document, you told us that in early
22 June 1992, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was not an army in the
23 proper sense of that word.
24 Can we have an English version of this document, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: English version of document is not available in
1 e-court, Your Honours. It looks like it's not released.
2 MR. LUKIC: We can find it in ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: That means that it is not released. You can open
4 it, but we cannot.
5 MR. LUKIC: Maybe that's why we cannot see translations, and
6 maybe that's why the Prosecution objected. I don't know. We loaded
7 English translations as well.
8 But I can read from English version, so we can --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, but --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you just should release the document so
11 that it is available for the Prosecution and the Chamber.
12 MR. LUKIC: We cannot release. There are two parts of releasing
13 the documents.
14 First, our Case Manager releases it; and then ITSS, the
15 electronics, the Tribunal electronics system has to release it, then
16 [indiscernible] as well, so only after those two steps we can see --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You indicated earlier, Mr. Lukic, earlier before
18 the break that you are going to try to keep away from documents that are
19 not translated. You're going to keep documents that have an English
20 translation. How do we deal with this? We can't -- we don't know what
21 is written here. We've got to have --
22 MR. LUKIC: We had a lot of problems last week. On Friday, they
23 promised they will solve the problem. Obviously they haven't. It is
24 absolutely not our fault.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But I'm talking about what you told us this
1 morning, that you were not going to use documents that have no
3 MR. LUKIC: This one does. And we have it.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Give us the translation. Give us the translation.
5 If it is it there, give it to us. If we can't see it here, then we don't
6 have it. To say it's there, it doesn't help us because we can't access
8 Yes, Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that until the technical
10 problem is resolved that Mr. Lukic ask one of his staff to print hard
11 copies of it so that we can follow along in that manner.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: At least that can be done. I mean that's an
13 obvious step -- solution.
14 MR. LUKIC: We will send a message to our staff to do
15 photocopy --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't you have hard copies of the document here?
17 MR. LUKIC: I have it for me. Your Honour, I did not know that
18 it is not released. I don't deal with the technical side of this matter.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, once again, to upload the document is
20 the first step and the second is to release it to the other party, to the
21 opposing party, and to the Chamber. And it's the responsibility of the
22 party to do that.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes. But when we release it, then the electronic
24 system of the Tribunal run by the Tribunal employees have to release it
25 also, further.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah. But have you released it?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes we have. We can see it on our screen.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's on your screens?
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But you must take care of this process. It is
6 your responsibility to make available the translation to the --
7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours [overlapping speakers] the Tribunal are
8 not my responsibility. My responsibility are people from my team, not
9 people from the Tribunal.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You --
11 MR. LUKIC: So they haven't done their job.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are in contact with those who are in charge
13 of these matters, not the Chamber, not the Prosecution.
14 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. They promised us that everything would be
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The problem here is, Mr. Lukic, that you may very
17 well not be responsible for Tribunal staff but you are responsible for
18 seeing that the evidence you want to present to the Court is available to
19 the Court when you want it to be presented to the Court. And if you
20 realise that the staff of the Tribunal has not done so, you make sure
21 that they follow up and do so before you call your witness or before you
22 call the document. So the responsibility is still yours to make sure
23 that when you come into court, you are able to communicate with the
24 Chamber in a language that the Chamber understands, and the official
25 language of the Chamber is either English or French.
1 MR. LUKIC: I can move on and return to these documents, if I
2 have a time.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do that, sir.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Just to clarify something. Yesterday you were saying how
6 General Mladic took, grabbed you in the face. Can you tell us if there
7 is any kind of video record or any photograph of that, please.
8 A. No. As I also mentioned to the Court yesterday, this occurred
9 while both the cameraman of Sky News and the cameraman of the BBC were in
10 the room where the upper military council, or whatever the name may have
11 been of the Bosnian Serbs, was meeting. All the other members of that
12 group were already in the room. That's where the two cameramen and the
13 two producers were. The person who was with me, the other outsider, if
14 you like, was John Simpson of the BBC. I am aware that John has actually
15 reported about this incident a year ago, at the time that Mr. Mladic was
16 brought to The Hague.
17 Q. The name of this John, please?
18 A. John Simpson. He's the senior foreign correspondent of the BBC.
19 Q. Thank you. And you say the producers were there as well. Was
20 one of your producers also present? Which one, if so?
21 A. What I said was that the producers were with the cameramen in a
22 separate room. The producer who was working with me at the time was
23 Jaksic Cekic, who was our Belgrade bureau chief at that time.
24 Q. Thank you. I'm trying to cut things short now.
25 Paragraph 53, you say:
1 "In another story, also broadcast in earlier June, I said that I
2 believed that Sarajevo was being deliberately obliterated because of what
3 we were seeing."
4 Has Sarajevo been obliterated? Can we agree that it was not?
5 A. Sarajevo was very severely shelled. Obliterated in the sense
6 that it was completely wiped off the map, no, it was not.
7 Q. So it was more of a journalistic literally -- literary
8 expression; is that correct?
9 A. It was the expression that came to mind at that time, after I had
10 witnessed those events.
11 Q. And, again, in the same paragraph, you say:
12 "No particular spot was being targeted; these projectiles were
13 hitting right across the city. I felt that the whole city was being
15 And about this, I want to ask you: Again, you didn't know the
16 disposition of the forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina within
17 Sarajevo from where they opened fire at Serb positions; is that correct?
18 A. At that time I had been taken to a number of front line positions
19 but I was not aware of all the positions of the Bosnian army within
20 Sarajevo, no; indeed, at no point throughout the war. And that is
21 situation, really, with any armed forces in any conflict.
22 Q. Thank you. After the JNA left the Marsal Tito barracks, who
23 moved in? And did anyone move in?
24 A. I imagine that, although we didn't actually film them moving in,
25 that members of the Bosnian army moved in. We were told that military
1 equipment had been left there, and in one of the stories that was shown
2 to the Court yesterday, we filmed and showed in that story people running
3 out of the Marsal Tito barracks after its evacuation. So those were some
4 of those people who went in.
5 Q. Do you know if any other barracks in Sarajevo and its environs
6 were transferred or got into the hands of the Bosnian army?
7 A. I was never taken to another barracks within Sarajevo by the
8 Bosnian army. I am aware that there were other barracks and that those
9 must have been taken over by the Bosnian army.
10 The manner in which they used them, I don't know, because I did
11 not actually personally witness that.
12 Q. Thank you. You were in the hospital, which is very close to the
13 barracks. Do you know what happened to the soldiers who were guarding
14 that hospital? Do you know that they were killed, all the members of the
15 JNA who were guarding the army when the hospital was taken over by the
16 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
17 A. I am not aware that the hospital was ever taken over by the
18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Whilst I was there, it was run by the same
19 people who had been running it before then, and that included
20 Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, senior surgeons. The director of the
21 hospital when I arrived was Bakir Nakas. And I had been told that he was
22 the director previously. And when I arrived in Sarajevo, there were no
23 guards guarding the hospital and I was not made aware of what -- what you
24 suggest. The only thing I am aware of is when I arrived in May 1992,
25 there was at least one soldier of the JNA who had been wounded who was
1 being taken care of in that hospital. One soldier wounded in the
2 Marsal Tito barracks.
3 Q. And you're saying that the same people worked in the hospital as
4 they did before the war. Is that this case everywhere in Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina because no side wanted to give up their doctors? The doctors
6 are needed more in war time. So did you go to other hospitals and did
7 you see that the same cadre remained before the war, that people were
8 simply not leaving?
9 A. I think there was a difference between the former military
10 hospital and, for instance, the Kosevo hospital which is actually the
11 main academic hospital of Sarajevo, that their people did leave, doctors.
12 I didn't personally see them leave. But we were informed that some of
13 the staff that had been there previously had left that hospital. I'm
14 aware that in other parts of Bosnia that I visited, for instance,
15 Gorazde, doctors were sent in from Sarajevo to man that hospital,
16 including at least two doctors from the former military hospital because
17 I had met them there before, and then encountered them again when I went
18 into Gorazde.
19 The doctors that I met at the one hospital that was run by the
20 Bosnian Serbs that I mentioned earlier this morning, if I remember
21 correctly at Sokolac, they had come from various places, including
22 Sarajevo, and they had clearly made a conscious choice to leave Sarajevo
23 and then work there.
24 Q. Paragraph 55 of your statement, please.
25 I'd like to ask you: Were you in Sarajevo when the JNA left the
1 Marsal Tito barracks? What date was it? Can you remember?
2 A. I was there. And we actually filmed the first buses, as I
3 remember, with soldiers at the end of the afternoon - there was a long
4 day of negotiation - leaving the barracks.
5 Q. Is that the end of May or the beginning of June?
6 A. No, it -- the beginning of June.
7 We had a night with the a lot of artillery -- a lot of shelling.
8 And the next day was strange for us because it was suddenly completely
9 silent, and we were actually able to walk along streets where we would
10 not have dared walk the previous day, and the negotiations actually took
11 place by the front gate, and we were able to film that prior to the
12 departure of the buses.
13 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 58. You told us you were not an artillery
14 man. You had the training in handling the mortar, and during the
15 Desert Storm you spent a lot of time with American artillery units.
16 Could we agree that the American artillery and the Serbian
17 artillery at the time did not act in the same way. First of all, the
18 Serbs don't have satellites to guide their rockets or missiles or shells,
19 and they don't have the machinery and the precision of fire that the
20 Americans had; correct?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I object to whether this is within the
23 scope of the witness's ability to answer the question. I'm not sure
24 there's been any basis established for what American military hardware
25 consisted of or Serbian military hardware consists of.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: Then we cannot use paragraph 58 or any of his
3 estimates and comparisons. If the Prosecution is willing to strike the
4 paragraphs that deal with these matters in this statement. We are happy
5 to continue without them.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is nothing in that
8 paragraph about satellite capability and satellite guided missiles. It
9 is very concrete observations of what the witness saw in his time in Iraq
10 and his time in Bosnia and I submit that he is confident to talk about
11 his own personal observations in the context of his own personal training
12 but he is certainly not within -- that I'm aware of, his scope of
13 knowledge, these broader questions about sophisticated equipment that the
14 Americans may or may not have.
15 MR. LUKIC: I'll formulate my question according to the statement
16 the Prosecutor just gave.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, you are not qualified enough, as
18 the Prosecutor suggests, to know how the American army operates; correct?
19 A. I am --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why -- you -- you read paragraph 58 of his
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why don't you stick to that information and ask
25 the witness about the content of his statement? Now is a very broad
1 question again, if he knows the American army -- how the American army
2 operates. What is that, how the American army operates? Can you please
3 focus on what he is giving in his statement and put a precise question to
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 In his statement the witness says:
7 "The senior officers commanding these units explained to me then
8 exactly how such an artillery battery operates and what its purpose is."
9 If the witness knows precisely what kind of artillery battery is
10 operating, then he should be able to answer exactly how it operates,
11 whether satellites are used, whether laser guidance is used because he
12 knows exactly how the unit operates. I'm asking him if he knows. And my
13 question was only about the usage of satellites, lasers, and such.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, I don't agree with you. The quotation
15 you have put on the records shows "the senior officers commanding these
16 units explained to me."
17 This is absolutely different from his personal knowledge. He is
18 testifying about what others told him. You should be very precise in
19 putting questions to him.
20 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation]
21 Q. [Interpretation] What did US commanders explain to you? How does
22 it work? What kind of technology were they using?
23 A. It -- it wasn't about the technology. It was about the use of
24 where the shells landed in a military context. They didn't explain the
25 precise technology involved - and I wouldn't really expect military
1 officers to do that - but what its function was in any operation, either
2 defensive or offensive. And that's what I'm referring to in -- in this
3 paragraph. And there they explained about -- which I knew because with
4 mortars it's the same thing about shells landing too long or too short
5 when you are trying to find a target until a target is found and then
6 there is sustained fire. That sustained fire can be for different
7 reasons, either to stop an opponent that is attacking you or because you
8 want to prepare the ground for an attack by your own ground forces. That
9 is what I'm referring to in this statement.
10 What I saw and witnessed in early June 1992 in Sarajevo was that
11 the Bosnian Serb army was absolutely capable of directing very sustained
12 and accurate fire on one particular target. On that occasion, it was the
13 Marsal Tito barracks. That was sustained fire across two days and they
14 hit that target again and again once they had found their range, which
15 was also shown in -- in the story shown to the Court yesterday. That is
16 what I'm referring to in the story in this -- in this paragraph.
17 Q. Did you have the same sort of interviews about the use of
18 artillery weapons with Serb artillery men and commanders?
19 A. In October and November 1991, I spent a considerable amount of
20 time with the forces of the Yugoslav Army around Vukovar, including quite
21 a lot of time with artillery officers, and we filmed them actually firing
22 those weapons and that -- as I recall, that was very much what they said
23 as well, that they were giving sustained fire on certain parts of Vukovar
24 because their own troops were engaged on the ground in Vukovar. They
25 were there in conjunction with what those forces were doing on the
2 Q. Do you remember any names of any officer who explained to you how
3 his unit operates?
4 A. No, Mr. Lukic. I met an awful lot of military officers in the
5 former Yugoslavia. To remember all the names, no.
6 Q. All right. Thank you.
7 What about the terrain in the US where you received the
8 explanations? Was it anything like the terrain in Sarajevo? I don't
9 think so ...
10 A. I wasn't giving an explanation of the terrain in the
11 United States. This was in Saudi Arabia where I met these American
13 The terrain is different. The terrain is different in
14 practically every war zone that I have been in. But the basis, as it was
15 explained to me and as I have seen it used in various war zones of why
16 you have artillery, that is basically the same. It can be much more
17 complicated, of course, in mountainous terrain to observe directly the
18 fire as it lands and therefore to make the corrections. But the basis
19 is -- is, as far as I am aware, the same.
20 Q. You say that the Serb artillery targeted various points in the
21 city. You said that it was not the confrontation of front lines that
22 were targeted. You say it was behind the lines.
23 Is it true that artillery weapons are not kept on front lines,
24 they are kept behind the lines, and that one cannot find a tank on the
25 forward lines or a 120-millimetre mortar on the front line? They are to
1 be found behind the lines; is that correct?
2 A. Artillery weapons, would, indeed, usually be kept further from
3 the front line. Tanks, however, I have absolutely seen close to the
4 front lines, very, very close; usually behind some kind of a building but
5 very, very close. And 120-millimetre mortars or smaller mortars can
6 absolutely also be found on the front lines. It depends on the war zone,
7 but I have seen them. Artillery, I would agree with you, is usually
8 further back.
9 Q. You spoke to us and showed us film 65 ter 22460E about the
10 Unis towers. We don't have time to show them again. But you remember
11 what I'm talking about; right?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. You described it as the symbol of modern Sarajevo?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. As far as I remember, those towers were described as a failed
16 investment. But I want to ask you: Is it true that they were not
17 inhabited. Nobody was living there, and there was no offices inside.
18 Nobody either worked or lived there. They just stood there uncompleted,
20 A. I'm not aware of people living in the Unis towers. I did, as I
21 also testified to the Court yesterday, enter the Unis towers before they
22 were hit and burnt, but I didn't -- I'm not aware whether all the offices
23 were used or were not used. I am not aware whether it was or was not a
24 failed investment. The Unis towers seemed to me a symbol of a new
25 building and of a new time in Sarajevo, and that's why I came up with the
1 phrase they were the symbol of modern Sarajevo.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van Lynden, when you did enter the towers, did
3 you notice that they were occupied by any businesses, offices, or
4 something like that?
5 THE WITNESS: By that stage, Your Honour, the war had already
6 gone on for a while, and businesses had closed down, and, therefore, we
7 didn't go into offices to check whether people were working there or not.
8 Apart from that, their position, it was very exposed, as you could see in
9 the film yesterday, and, therefore, anyone who did have a business in
10 there would, I would imagine, have moved it by the stage when I was in
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: At page 47, line 1, you say:
13 "I did, as I also testified to the Court yesterday, enter the
14 Unis towers before they were hit and burnt."
15 And I ask you the question again: When you did enter them before
16 they were hit and burnt, did you notice that any business was taking
17 place in there or did you find any offices that simply -- I understand
18 that you say people didn't live there but I want to know whether was this
19 building occupied for business purposes?
20 THE WITNESS: We didn't actually see that, as I recall. We did
21 meet certain people there when we arrived at the building and they took
22 us upstairs, but whether there were any businesses still working there,
23 I'm not aware of that, no.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. van Lynden.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. van Lynden, you said you entered one, if I remember well.
2 Did you notice that in one of those towers the headquarters of the
3 Territorial Defence was housed, of the Muslim forces? That it was the
4 only group of people staying in these buildings?
5 A. At that period, the headquarters of the Territorial Defence
6 forces, as they were, indeed, still called, I'm aware of at a different
7 location in Sarajevo, and we actually were taken to that location.
8 The people that I encountered when we went to the Unis towers
9 included at least two women who I don't think were members of the
10 Territorial Defence forces. We didn't meet members of the
11 Territorial Defence forces when I went there.
12 Q. Why do you think that women could not be members of the
13 Territorial Defence?
14 A. They were not dressed in military uniforms. They did not carry
15 any kind of weaponry, nor did they tell us that they were members of the
16 Territorial Defence forces. So I concluded that they were not. I am not
17 saying that women cannot be in the military.
18 Q. Just to inform you, we received an answer from the ITSS and they
19 confirmed that all our documents have been released. They say they are
20 in e-court. The ITSS can see them, and they have no idea why we don't
21 have them here in the courtroom.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you for the response. Are we able to see
23 them now on e-court, as and when you are ready to go back to those
25 MR. LUKIC: Try again. 1D137, please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours. The original document is there
2 for the translation. It says: Denied. Usually it means that Defence
3 released document box was not ticked.
4 Can you double-check if for the translation itself that box is
5 ticked? It's not available in ...
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We must continue then without the
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 [Interpretation] Let's see if 1D110 is in our system.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Only B/C/S version, Your Honours.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Let us focus now on your meeting with Juka Prazina; paragraph 63
14 [as interpreted] of your statement.
15 A. Paragraph 63 of the statement I have in front of me refers to my
16 visit to Kula prison.
17 Q. [In English] 61. I said 61. Sorry.
18 [Interpretation] As we know, Juka Prazina was a man who was
19 popular in Sarajevo at the time. He was actively involved in the
20 fighting. He was a criminal, as you reported.
21 Did you know, apart from what we've seen, what kind of weaponry
22 Juka Prazina had in his units?
23 A. Yes, to a degree. Some of his units of had heavy machine-guns.
24 They also had Heckler & Koch submachine-guns, and those are the two
25 things that immediately come to mind at this moment.
1 Q. He drove you around in a regular police vehicle with a police
2 siren and the rotating light on the roof?
3 A. Yes, with a rotating light on the roof and with a siren, indeed.
4 I don't think it was a regular police vehicle though.
5 Q. The footage was from inside, so we can't see it.
6 A. American -- it was an American car, as I recall. I don't think
7 it was a regular police vehicle. But, absolutely, with a light, and with
8 a siren. It was a pretty strange experience.
9 Q. Did you know that he was, in fact, a member of the police force
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. That is not something that he told me at that time. What we were
12 given to understand was that he commanded a separate unit that was linked
13 to the Bosnian army, and in the end, the Bosnian army tried to bring it
14 under their total control, as I understand. But he didn't tell me that
15 he was a member of the police force, no. Not that I recall.
16 Q. Do you know that, later on, he became a member of the
17 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and got the rank of general?
18 A. I am aware that the Bosnian government wanted such units to come
19 under the control of the Bosnian army. I am not aware that he got the
20 rank of general, but then I never met him again after July 1992, and I
21 imagine that's the period you're referring to.
22 Q. [In English] Yes.
23 [Interpretation] Do you know that there had been proposals to
24 demilitarise the city of Sarajevo? And who was against demilitarisation?
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I'm sorry, we have to consult as we go. I asked you if you were
3 aware of the demilitarisation of Sarajevo, that there had been proposals
4 to that effect, whether you knew about them?
5 A. I'm aware that throughout much of the war there were negotiations
6 and discussions led by various mediators about the demilitarisation of
7 Sarajevo, yes.
8 Q. Do you know who opposed it? Which side? I will tell you. For
9 instance, do you know that the Muslim side opposed the demilitarisation
10 of Sarajevo?
11 A. I wasn't an actual witness to the negotiations, and, therefore,
12 one gets various versions of those negotiations afterwards from all those
13 involved, and I am aware that the allegation was made that it was the
14 Bosnian government that opposed this. I'm also aware of allegations that
15 it was the Bosnian Serb government that opposed this. But I wasn't
16 there. You would have to ask someone who was actually present at those
18 Q. Thank you. Do you know who held Mount Igman from the beginning
19 to the end of the war in Bosnia?
20 A. During the periods that I was in Bosnia, Mount Igman was held by
21 the Bosnian army.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. LUKIC: Is it time for the -- our break, Your Honour?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is time, indeed, Mr. Lukic.
1 Mr. van Lynden, you may stand down. We'll come back at 20 to
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just -- just before we take the break, for your
7 information, Mr. Lukic, the Registrar just tells me now that D137 is now
8 available for when we come back.
9 We'll take a break at come back at 20 to 12.00.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 11.21 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be brought into court.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that we take a look at a
19 video, 1D165. It is Otes.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 "... Otes burns. Four days after the Serbs launched their
22 offensive, Sarajevo's western suburb falls into their hands. For months
23 the defenders of Sarajevo have tried to break the siege. Now it's been
24 turned up a notch. By morning, only small pockets of resistance remain
25 yet the shelling continues unchanged incessant. Those who can, escape;
1 those who can't face almost certain death. For the UN's forces here and
2 for the politicians who sent them, the latest fighting marks yet another
3 humiliation, making a mockery of their peace-making efforts. For a
4 change they admit as much."
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. van Lynden, at the time of this fighting, you were not in
7 Otes; isn't that right?
8 A. That's correct. I was in Sarajevo.
9 Q. Also, your cameraman was not there, or any other crew member; is
10 that correct?
11 A. My cameraman and other members of the crew were with me.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you should indicate for the record
13 which part of the video was played. I was -- I took a note it was going
14 from 0:12 seconds to 0:56 seconds. But I think for the future it is
15 necessary to have it clear on the record which part of the video was
17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, the video that was played, we made. We
18 created -- actually, we took the whole part of that Otes video and
19 created a new one so this number I gave, 1D165, stands only for this
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. At the time -- do you know, rather, that at that time a broad
24 offensive was being launched by the Muslim forces against different
25 positions of the Serb army?
1 A. Throughout much of the time I was in Sarajevo, I am aware that a
2 variety of operations were launched by the Bosnian army to try and break
3 the siege of Sarajevo.
4 Q. Thank you. So you know that actually the Muslim forces were
5 trying to break through the Serb lines on this occasion as well, and the
6 Serb forces took Otes in a counter-attack. Are you aware of that?
7 Since, in the Karadzic case, you saw the military documents dated the
8 1st of December, up until the 6th of December that report about attacks
9 of Muslim forces against Serb portions.
10 Do you remember that?
11 A. I am aware that Mr. Karadzic showed me various documents which I
12 had never seen before and which I am not the right person to make any
13 comment on. I cannot judge whether those documents are real or not, and
14 I was not privy to that information at the time when I made that report.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, just so that I can follow, this clip we
17 watched now, you said it's an attack on Otes, and -- and Mr. van Lynden
18 says at the time of this attack he was in Sarajevo.
19 Where is Otes in relation to Sarajevo?
20 MR. LUKIC: I don't know, Your Honour. That was presented to us
21 as Otes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now why --
23 MR. LUKIC: I don't know if --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: How -- how is Mr. van Lynden connected to Otes --
25 Mr. Mladic, what's your problem? Mr. Mladic says -- can somebody
1 finds out what he wants, please.
2 MR. LUKIC: Otes is the western part of Sarajevo. It's a one --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, Mr. Mladic.
4 MR. LUKIC: He cannot hear.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are either going to talk softly when you do
6 talk to your team or we will have to do something about that, okay?
7 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, [Interpretation] As we established with
8 the witness that he had not been in Otes during the fighting and that
9 this video-clip has nothing to do with that fighting, we are not going to
10 tender it into evidence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I understand that. I'm just wanting to
12 understand why he is being asked about an incident which he didn't
13 witness. He was in Sarajevo when Otes was under attack. I'm just trying
14 to find out what is it that you want from him, as the Defence.
15 MR. LUKIC: The OTP disclosed this video to the Defence, alleging
16 that it is Otes fightings on this day.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
18 MR. LUKIC: And that he was there.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. They said he was there, yes, but he says he
20 was not. Okay. Thank you so much.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Go ahead.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In December 1992, you no longer crossed over to the Serb side;
1 A. No, I did. I left Sarajevo by car, and we crossed over to the
2 Serb side and we drove to Belgrade via Pale.
3 Q. But you no longer reported from the Serb side in
5 A. Not in December 1992. I did in February 1994.
6 Q. Between December 1992 and February 1994, you no longer reported
7 from territory that was under the control of the Army of
8 Republika Srpska; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Thank you. You said that everything that you recorded went to
11 London and was edited there; that is to say, changed. Was all this
12 editing done in your absence and without your consent?
13 A. I am not aware that I've ever said that everything was edited in
14 London. It wasn't edited in London. The only report that I'm aware of
15 that was edited in London was a half-hour look-back on the year 1992
16 which was voiced by me in Sarajevo and edited in London. All the other
17 stories were edited by the picture editor who was with me in the field.
18 Apart from during the period in May, June 1992 when, as I've already
19 explained to the Court, the editor together with the satellite dish was
20 in Pale while I was in Sarajevo.
21 Q. Then I misunderstood. I do apologise, but you've explained it to
22 us now, and I think that that will do.
23 Can we also agree that in Sarajevo, like anywhere else in any
24 other war zone, opposing forces did not provide you with specific
25 locations where their forces were stationed or specifically where the
1 front lines were?
2 A. On the whole, I would agree. But we were taken, both by the
3 Bosnian Serbs to certain front line positions, and by the Bosnian army to
4 certain front line positions, but they didn't disclose to us a complete
5 list of, These are our front line positions, and these are where our
6 forces held. No, they did not.
7 Q. Thank you. Yesterday we briefly touched upon Mount Trebevic.
8 Have you heard of the 10th Mountain Brigade of the
9 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was headed by Musan Topalovic, nicknamed
11 A. I heard of his name, but I don't recall hearing of the 10th
12 Mountain Brigade, no.
13 Q. So you did not hear of this 10th Mountain Brigade of the
14 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina being stationed in Mount Trebevic?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Thank you. Just briefly, the Green Berets. I allow for the
17 possibility that you were not informed, but do you allow for the
18 possibility that were not properly informed when you claim that the
19 Green Berets were a figment of the imagination of the Serbs in Bosnia?
20 A. Throughout my time in the war in Bosnia, I never encountered the
21 Green Berets.
22 Q. When you say that, do you mean that you never saw people wearing
23 green berets, or that you did not see members of the Green Berets who did
24 not necessarily have to wear green berets on their heads?
25 A. I realise that they didn't necessarily have to wear green berets
1 on their heads. The point is that we asked. We were told that they
2 existed. We asked. We looked. I was in various sectors with the
3 Bosnian army and I did not encounter any unit bearing that name, nor when
4 we asked did anybody confirm. Only on the Bosnian Serb side did they say
5 they were the Green Berets. I encountered other special units of the
6 Bosnian army, for instance the Black Swans, but the Green Berets, I did
7 not encounter.
8 Q. I'm not going to dwell on that any longer, but the Green Berets
9 are not a special unit, like a special unit of the US army would be. The
10 Green Berets are a name borne by a very broad front of the armed
11 population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Sounds to me a bit like Mr. Lukic is beginning to
14 provide evidence himself, which I wonder whether that is appropriate.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, indeed.
16 Mr. Lukic, are you trying to testify?
17 MR. LUKIC: I'm trying to cut short my examination. Obviously I
18 will have to stick with the rules.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, I would like to
21 say that the existence of the Green Berets, for instance, was registered
22 in a Judgement of this Tribunal, Celebici, in paragraph 119 of the
23 Trial Judgement.
24 However, we shall move on.
25 Q. During your stay there, did you ever go to the Evropa Hotel to
1 Stari Grad, and Zagreb? Because our information is that the Green Berets
2 had their headquarters at these hotels.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say, Mr. Lukic, in Zagreb? And by Zagreb
4 do you mean Zagreb the town in Croatia?
5 MR. LUKIC: Zagreb hotel, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's a hotel.
7 MR. LUKIC: It's a hotel.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
9 THE WITNESS: If my memory serves me correctly, when I arrived in
10 Sarajevo in May 1992, we passed by the Evropa Hotel and it had been
11 burnt. Precisely what had happened, I do not know. As far as the other
12 two hotels are concerned, I have no recollection of going to either of
13 them during my stays in Sarajevo.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. The information that we have is from the 20th of April, 1992?
16 A. I was not in Sarajevo in April 1992.
17 Q. The Evropa Hotel, is it close to the front line? If so, how
18 close? [In English] 100 metres?
19 A. Oh, I can't -- I mean, we drove past it. It was pointed out to
20 us, but I -- I can't give a judgement on that.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 [Interpretation] Did you have the opportunity to meet -- or to
23 see reports of the subcommittee for Iran of the US Congress that talks
24 about the smuggling of weapons from Iran to the Muslim government in
1 A. I haven't met any members of Congress, nor have I seen these
3 Q. Thank you. Since you've moved around a lot in diplomatic
4 circles, I thought that perhaps there was a possibility that you
5 discussed this as well.
6 At any meetings that you had with other foreign leaders, did you
7 ever discuss these reports?
8 A. No. Not that I'm -- no.
9 Q. And now paragraph 67. You talk about reporting from Pale, and
10 you say in order to film and have talks there, it was important to have
11 their co-operation.
12 Did they co-operate at Pale; and when did they co-operate; and
13 when did they not co-operate, according to you?
14 A. When we first arrived there in May 1992, I moved into Sarajevo
15 almost immediately, but when we came out of Sarajevo in June, we tried
16 for a number of days to work from Pale, and what we found was that every
17 time we basically left the Pension [phoen] Olympic at a check-point half
18 an hour or 40 minutes away, we would be stopped and would be -- not
19 arrested, that is the wrong word, but we would be sent back to Pale. And
20 as I explained to the Court yesterday that led us to the conviction that
21 I had to have conversations with Mr. Karadzic to see to it that I had his
22 personal co-operation so that I would be able to move around. We
23 accepted, as is often the case in many war zones, that there would be
24 someone from the Bosnian Serb government with us wherever we went, and
25 that either in the form of a minder, or, as it turned out, in the form of
1 two military policemen. We didn't specifically ask for military
2 policemen but we were then given co-operation in September 1992 and
3 that's why we returned there and worked there.
4 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 74. I'm trying to skip everything that is
6 You say the Pale television always broadcast distorted news,
7 warped news. "If a death of a Serb was mentioned, they would say that he
8 had died at the hands of Islamic, mad, fundamentalist crazy hordes."
9 At that time in Bosnia were there any Mujahedin present; and, if
10 so, how many? Do you know?
11 A. By "Mujahedin," are you referring to Afghans?
12 Q. Any who were not from Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 A. Throughout my time in Bosnia, I never encountered - never
14 encountered - foreign fighters of whatever nationality, apart from on one
15 occasion in Grbavica when I encountered a number of Russians and one
16 Japanese gentleman who described himself - and it's his words, not mine -
17 as a Japanese Chetnik. But I never encountered what you call the
18 Mujahedin. I am aware of the allegations. We -- I looked as far as we
19 were able to, given the limitations of any journalist in a war zone, and
20 I never encountered these people, no.
21 Q. You say that you heard accusations to the effect that they were
22 there. Did you try to check with the Muslim authorities whether they had
23 any Mujahedin among their own ranks, and, if you asked, what did they
24 tell you? But then if you didn't ask, you didn't ask.
25 A. I said that we checked, so, yes, we asked.
1 Specifically we heard allegations about the 3rd Corps of the
2 Bosnian army. I met with the commander of the 3rd Corps on a number of
3 occasions. We asked him, and we asked lower officers within the
4 3rd Corps, and they all denied that that was the case. And I didn't see
5 them. That's ...
6 Q. If they did exist, then they didn't tell you the truth, if they
7 did exist; right? I mean, it's a hypothetical question.
8 A. All a journalist can do is ask the question. And whether we are
9 always told the truth or not, I doubt that we were always told the truth
10 by politicians from any side, Mr. Lukic.
11 Q. [In English] Thank you, Mr. van Lynden.
12 [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now look at paragraph 82 of
13 your statement.
14 Here you're talking about an artillery position --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could the document be brought up on the screen.
16 That would be helpful.
17 MR. LUKIC: The statement of the gentleman?
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The statement, of course.
19 Now it's on the screen. Thank you.
20 MR. LUKIC: It's P66. Paragraph 82.
21 Q. [Interpretation] You have the hard copy in front of you. And,
22 here, you say:
23 "I do not believe that the Bosnians had the artillery to fire
24 back at this position."
25 This is an assumption of yours; right? Since you didn't know
1 what the Muslims had exactly in their arsenal?
2 A. Firstly, we asked whether they had artillery to fire back at such
3 a position, and we were told they didn't. Were we told the truth, there
4 we could argue. And I never saw fired returned onto that position
5 throughout the time that I was in Sarajevo. And we are talking about
6 this period of 1992. Whether later in the war the Bosnian army had the
7 artillery capability within Sarajevo, I'm not aware. But I'm talking
8 specifically about this period in the summer of 1992.
9 Q. Since we're on that topic, I would now like to look at this
10 document, 1D137, that we tried before.
11 In this document, which is a report of the Sarajevo-Romanija
12 Command of the 8th of June, 1992, one of the offensives is discussed by
13 the Muslim forces. And it states - let me just count the lines - in
14 line 8 -- actually, line 7 it states:
15 [In English] "Attacks on all other parts of the front were
16 unsuccessful. Vraca, Vojkovici, Nedzarici, Ilidza, Rajlovac and the
17 firing positions of the corps artillery group were fired on with
18 artillery and mortars."
19 [Interpretation] On the second page of the same document under 7,
20 and it's second page in the English version and it's on the same page in
21 the B/C/S version, under 7 it states:
22 [In English] "In the course of the day, we had eight dead and 62
23 injured. Two tanks and five APCs were damaged."
24 [Interpretation] And it can be seen from this document that the
25 artillery positions of the Serbian army in early June 1992 received
1 artillery fire from weapons of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2 I allow for the possibility that you didn't know about this, but
3 I'm asking you: Can you see on the basis of this document that the
4 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina did have artillery weapons which it could
5 use to fire at Serb positions?
6 A. There's no way that I can say anything about this document. I
7 have never seen this document before. I don't know the veracity of this
8 document. All I can say is what I personally witnessed while I was in
9 Sarajevo, and I did not witness artillery fire from Bosnian positions
10 hitting that one particular position throughout the time that I was in
11 Sarajevo. Whether this document is correct or not, I can't say. There
12 is no way that I -- I think even can be expected to make a comment about
13 a document of this nature.
14 Q. Thank you. Well, this comes from one --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document? 1D137.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: How do we do that, Mr. Lukic, when the witness
18 says he has no knowledge of the document?
19 MR. LUKIC: But it has to do with his testimony, that there were
20 no --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. But can you tender it through a witness who
22 has knowledge about its provenance and its veracity. This witness knows
23 nothing about this document.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 MR. LUKIC: Then we withdrew --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
3 MR. LUKIC: -- our request.
4 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 87, if you would be kind enough to
5 look at that, please, you say that you visited specialist sniper
6 positions where they had radios and where they said that they were in
7 touch with observers elsewhere who, via the radio, would tell them about
8 the acquisition of targets. Does a sniper need a radio communication to
9 know if he hit a target or not?
10 A. I'm simply quoting the people that we met there. I should add,
11 we didn't ask to be taken to sniper positions. We were simply taken to
12 front line positions. We encountered these people, and we asked them
13 questions. This is what they told us.
14 Q. Why I'm asking you this, in my opinion, if somebody told you
15 this, then they don't know what a sniper is. Would you agree with that?
16 A sniper, when he has a hit, he knows that he got a hit --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Once again, Mr. Lukic, you are now attempting to
18 testify. Not only testify but you're also giving opinion evidence.
19 Could you ask questions and not tell the witness what your
20 opinions are.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did you see sniper rifles at Serb positions? Did they have optic
1 A. Yes, we did. We actually -- the cameraman even took one shot
2 through the optic sights in one of the stories. We were showing them.
3 We didn't -- I must repeat again. We didn't ask to see that
4 position. We were taken there.
5 Q. [In English] I understand that.
6 [Interpretation] As a war correspondent, did you see anywhere
7 that a sniper would require a radio link with the target that he was
8 aiming at, in order to know whether he hit the target or not?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, I must ask you a question, Mr. Lukic.
10 Earlier you said with observers. Now you say with a target.
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you look at page 64 --
13 MR. LUKIC: No. I thought with the observers --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- line 25, it talks of observers, not targets.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Obviously the target is probably dead by that
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 MR. LUKIC: This was evidently a badly phrased question.
21 Q. As a war correspondent, did you ever encounter a situation in
22 which the snipers had to have a radio connection with the observers, in
23 order to know whether they hit the target or not?
24 A. What we were told was about the acquisition of targets, that
25 there was a certain target that the observers passed that information on
1 by radio. That is what we were told in Grbavica, in September 1992.
2 As I explained to the Court yesterday, I was warned very early on
3 in my career as a war correspondent that to go with snipers is a
4 dangerous business that can lead to morally very uncertain ground, and
5 therefore I never did. And therefore I have no great experience saying
6 whether other snipers also used radios and other observers or not. I am
7 merely reporting what we encountered in September 1992 in Grbavica and
8 what these soldiers told us.
9 Q. I would just like to clarify one thing. This, what you have just
10 said now, is not in your statement. In your statement it states:
11 "I visited specialist sniper positions where they had radios and
12 where they said that they were in touch with observers elsewhere in other
13 positions who, via the radio, would tell them about the acquisition of
15 A. That is what I encountered.
16 Q. And today you are telling us that they were supposed to tell them
17 how to determine a target, not whether they had hit a target or not. So
18 my question was whether a sniper would need an observer to tell them
19 whether they hit a target or not. But if you cannot help us, that's all
20 right. It's not really that important.
21 A. I don't remember that we -- that it was mentioned at all in our
22 conversations about whether the target had been hit. It was about the
23 acquisition. They said that they would be informed by radio that there
24 was a certain target for them to shoot at. I cannot recall in any of
25 those conversations having a conversation as who would know whether the
1 target had or had not been hit.
2 Q. Perhaps there's an error in the translation. In English it says
4 A. Of targets.
5 Q. And in the Serbian, it says that they would report back whether
6 they hit the target or not.
7 Well, never mind. Let's go to paragraph 89 of your statement.
8 A. I did make the statement in English, Mr. Lukic, not in
10 Q. [In English] Yeah, I know.
11 [Interpretation] You say that:
12 "At some of these positions, we were told by the local military
13 commanders that they did not want to have us there and that they did not
14 care what anyone in Pale said about that."
15 Was this customary in the ranks of the Army of Republika Srpska
16 for there to be instances of willfulness and disregard of orders?
17 A. That would be too broad a statement, and I did not spend enough
18 time with that army to be able to make such a statement.
19 What I'm saying here, what I say in my statement is that we
20 encountered it on a number of occasions that military commanders said,
21 No, we don't want foreign press here. Without giving, as I recall, any
22 further explanation.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 94, you talk about sniper positions in
24 Grbavica. These positions that you visited, they were on the
25 confrontation line; is that right? You also say that in paragraph 100 of
1 your statement.
2 Can we confirm that the locations that you visited were on the
3 line of confrontation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Can we briefly look at paragraph 128 of your
6 statement. We're talking about 23rd of February in Gorazde.
7 You say that there was a supply line. Was there a supply line
8 for the town of Gorazde? Did that exist? Which was organised by the
9 government in Sarajevo.
10 A. The -- the -- the trail led into the entire enclave of Gorazde.
11 The enclave was bigger than just the town. It is quite a big enclave, in
12 fact. What I witnessed was that civilians living in -- within the
13 enclave would come out to an army camp on the other side of the lines.
14 There, they would receive usually 10 kilos of flour, sometimes of pasta
15 and that the following night they would return.
16 There was also a part of the operation that was run by the
17 Bosnian army, which was more organised with pack ponies. Precisely what
18 these ponies carried, we did not always see. I saw some with food. That
19 we were shown. If they were also carrying anything else, we did not see.
20 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 133, you said that you saw -- or visited
21 some Serb prisoners while in Gorazde. Did you tape this?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. Is that part of the evidence that was tendered through you -- was
24 that something that the Prosecution showed you?
25 A. As far as I'm aware, the Prosecution has those tapes, yes.
1 Q. And this hamlet in the area of Gorazde, this Serb hamlet under
2 the control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was that recorded?
3 A. Yes, we did film there.
4 Q. And you also gave that material to the OTP; correct?
5 A. As far as I'm aware, yes. But it is not something that I have
6 looked at recently or discussed with the Prosecution.
7 MR. LUKIC: Just one second, please.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. LUKIC: I apologise.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Paragraph 149 of your statement you say that
11 many soldiers were recruits. They were not professionals. Were there
12 any professional soldiers in the Army of Republika Srpska?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that the witness be asked
15 the basis, does he even have the capacity to answer a question as
16 far-reaching as to whether there were any professional soldiers in the
17 Army of Republika Srpska.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The basis would be paragraph 149 of
20 Mr. van Lynden's statement where he says:
21 "Based on the visits I made to the troops and discussions with
22 the soldiers and officers I made some conclusions about the level of
23 discipline of the Bosnian Serb army."
24 And then he goes on to say that, also, many of the normal
25 soldiers were conscripts. They were not professionals.
1 If Mr. van Lynden is not able to comment on this, we accept that.
2 We don't have any problem with that.
3 THE WITNESS: I'm willing, Your Honour, as I said in the
4 statement, the officers, most of them told us also were professional
5 officers in the former JNA in the Yugoslav Army. A lot of the soldiers
6 told us that they were not professionals and that they had been
8 That is what I am reporting in this statement.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. van Lynden.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I would like to ask you the following in relation to that: The
12 soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, did they also belong to
13 the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army? The officers of the Army of Bosnia
14 and Herzegovina, were they also officers from the Yugoslav People's Army?
15 A. Some of the officers of the Bosnian army had been officers in the
16 Yugoslav national army. Atif Dudakovic, Mustafa Hajrulahovic are two
17 names that come to mind. I also met other officers who had not been
18 professional officers in the Yugoslav army. Many of the soldiers had,
19 because the Yugoslav army had been an army of conscription, had done
20 their military service.
21 Q. I am receiving a message. Well, let's just go back to Gorazde
23 You say that you filmed these people who were captured. Were
24 there any captured women in Gorazde?
25 A. Wherever we went in Bosnia, and whichever side we were with, we
1 asked to visit the prisons. On the Bosnian Serb side, we were taken to
2 Kula in September 1992. And in both during my visit in Gorazde in
3 February 1993 and my visit to Bihac in November 1994 we were given access
4 to prisoners held by the Bosnian army.
5 I should add one thing here for the Court. On all these
6 occasions, we asked to speak separately to the prisoners without their
7 guards being present, and on all three occasions that was allowed, both
8 on the Bosnian Serb side and on the Bosnian side. On all occasions we
9 made a list or asked the prisoners to make a list for us of all those
10 that they knew that were held there. Those lists we later passed on to
11 the International Committee of the Red Cross. It's not really a part of
12 the journalism that we do, but it is part of what we think is our duty
13 also in war zone.
14 The only ones that I met in the two Bosnian army prisons that I
15 visited in Gorazde and Bihac, they all said that they were soldiers, and
16 they were all male.
17 Q. I would now like to look at paragraph 152 where you talk about
18 weekend soldiers.
19 In paragraph 152, you say that:
20 "I heard stories that men were coming from Serbia on weekends
21 purely for the fun of shooting into Sarajevo. This information was also
22 common knowledge in Belgrade amongst international and Serbian
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Slow down, Mr. Lukic. The interpreter is trying
25 desperately to keep pace with you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So we are talking about international and Serbian journalists in
3 Belgrade. Which journalists gave you this information? Do you recall
4 their names perhaps?
5 A. This was generally talked about in Belgrade. I don't have any
6 specific names who told us about this. I mean, this was -- journalists
7 meet each other when they are away from the front lines. I didn't in
8 Sarajevo, but when I was in Belgrade we would also meet a lot of Serb
9 journalists. During 1991 we had been based at Belgrade television. I
10 knew a lot of people there. During various meetings, this is what we
11 were told.
12 Q. As a military correspondent - I have to go back to Gorazde
13 briefly once more - did you hear that the sister of --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long are you going to be on that point?
15 MR. LUKIC: One minute.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Did you hear that the sister of General Baucal
17 was -- general of the JNA, Dimitri Baucal, was captured by members of the
18 Bosnian army or the Muslim side? She lived in Gorazde actually.
19 A. I cannot recall being told of that or being aware of that.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's past 20 to, Mr. Lukic. Would that be a
22 convenient time?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes. If you allow me more time to conclude my
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I -- if I don't, then you don't want us to take
1 a break.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: We will take a break. Mr. van Lynden, you can
4 stand down. We'll come back at 1.00.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome, are you going to need any time for
7 re-examination; and, if so, how much.
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Approximately 10 minutes.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
10 We'll take a break and come back at 1.00.
11 Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.44 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic. I beg your pardon.
15 May the witness please be brought in.
16 Yes, Mr. Groome.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may I take these few moments to
18 introduce the Chamber to Ms. Lorna Bolton, another member of the
19 Prosecution team who will be leading the evidence of the next witness.
20 She has entered the courtroom.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Welcome, Madam Bolton.
22 MS. BOLTON: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, do you think you can wrap up by half
4 MR. LUKIC: By.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Half past.
6 MR. LUKIC: I will do my best.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. van Lynden, it is not going to take very long. In
10 paragraph 156 you talk about arming, and you say that:
11 "There was a definite predominance on the Bosnian Serb side.
12 This is true for all the weaponry, including, sniping and infantry
14 In your view, does this go for 1994 or 1995 as well or did the
15 balance change? Was it then in the favour -- in favour of the
16 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. No. I would say that where there was balance in the favour of
18 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was in terms of manpower. Numbers of
19 soldiers that they could deploy in the field.
20 As far as I personally witnessed, in 1994 and 1995, prior to the
21 Croatian Storm operation, the Bosnian army did not have the heavy
22 weaponry, could not match the heavy weaponry of the Bosnian Serb army.
23 After August -- the August offensive by the Croats, at least as
24 far as the 5th Corps was concerned, there the weaponry had changed.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 5th Corps of which army?
1 THE WITNESS: The Bosnian army, Your Honour. My apologies.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. We have part of your statement that has to do with
4 cease-fires and a meeting with General Mladic. As a military
5 correspondent, a war correspondent in Sarajevo, did you come to learn
6 that the Serb side was making offers non-stop for a lasting cease-fires
7 and cessation of hostilities?
8 A. That is not something that Mr. Mladic told me during the
9 interview. I am aware, as I have said previously today to this Court,
10 that there were ongoing negotiations mediated by various parties
11 throughout the war, trying to bring the war to an end. I was not privy
12 to those meetings myself. No journalist was. And each side has its own
13 view of what happened at those meetings and what it offered and what its
14 opponents offered.
15 Q. Thank you. Now paragraph 162 of your statement. This is what
16 you say there:
17 "In Sarajevo, soldiers were generally positioned on the front
18 lines. I am not aware of any major barracks. All soldiers in Sarajevo
19 slept at their own homes."
20 Is that correct? Or the vast that majority, at any rate.
21 A. Where do I say that? Or is that your question?
22 Q. [In English] That's my question, the last part.
23 [Interpretation] Your statement is:
24 "In Sarajevo, soldiers were generally positioned on the front
25 lines. I am not aware of any major barracks."
1 Is it correct that soldiers from the front line went to spend the
2 night at their own homes in different parts of Sarajevo? I'm referring
3 to soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 A. As far as I'm aware, the soldiers who were on the front lines
5 were there for a period of time and then would be given a period of time
6 off. And then, I imagine, that they did, indeed, go back to their
7 apartments. But some -- as I also say in this paragraph, some were
8 refugees from outside of Sarajevo, and precisely where they lived, I
9 don't know.
10 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 164, you say:
11 "The Bosnian Serbs often claimed to me that the Bosnian forces
12 had fired at their own people. For instance, after the bread line
13 shelling in May 1992."
14 You say further on:
15 "I did not accept these claims?"
16 You, yourself, decide which information and which claim you would
17 accept and which one would you not accept; isn't that correct?
18 A. No. I was never shown evidence, which is also what I say in this
19 paragraph. I was never -- I never saw any evidence that proved those
21 Q. Thank you. You heard of the killing of General Sefer Halilovic's
22 wife and her brother; right?
23 A. I have heard of the incident but I was not in Sarajevo at the
25 Q. Sefer Halilovic, at the time, was the commander-in-chief of the
1 Muslim forces; isn't that right?
2 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
3 Q. His wife and her brother were killed in an area that was under
4 the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
5 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
6 Q. They were killed in an explosion, and it was established that
7 they had not been killed by the Serbs but, rather, by someone who
8 belonged to the Muslim people; is that correct?
9 A. When I heard about this incident, that is what I was, indeed,
10 told: They had not been killed by the Serbs.
11 Q. Just briefly. We are not going to show it, but in 65 ter 22457B,
12 that is a video, you speak about the separatist Serb government. At the
13 time, who was actually a separatist? The Muslims or the Serbs, in your
15 A. Are you showing me the video or ...
16 Q. [In English] No. I told you that I'm not going to show you the
18 A. Oh, sorry. I beg your pardon. My personal view was that there
19 was a legitimate government in Sarajevo.
20 Q. Okay. [Interpretation] Now I'd like to show you a video,
21 65 ter 22458B. Three minutes long.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "... all of Sarajevo. The Dobrinja corridor a few hundred yards
24 of road lined by anti-tank traps, cars that haven't made it, that leads
25 to Sarajevo's otherwise surrounded western suburb. A place of newly
1 built apartment blocks, where some 30.000 Muslims, Croats and Serbs live
2 but every day some also die.
3 "Mohammed Arapovic and Mustafa Sipovac caught minutes earlier by
4 a solitary mortar bomb outside the shelter of their homes which they left
5 for a rare, if fatal, breath of fresh air. In a warehouse transformed
6 into Dobrinja's solitary hospital, they struggle to keep the two elderly
7 civilians alive. And unequal struggle that is lost after they are
8 bundled into makeshift ambulances for the drive into Sarajevo proper. In
9 the 24 hours we stayed in Dobrinja, eight others would suffer a similar
10 fate. Yet all, those we met, called it a quiet day.
11 "Even so, with the front lines never far away, few wonder ..."
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This man in black uniform, do you know which unit he belonged to?
14 A. He was under the command of Juka Prazina.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, at some stage I would like you to go
17 back to the beginning of this clip, because the transcript -- I'd like to
18 get it where it talks about 30.000 Muslims, Croats, da da da. I would
19 like to get that part on the record because I think there's a word
20 missing there.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And we should put on the record that you stopped
22 the video at 10 minutes, 20 seconds, so that we know which person was
23 [indiscernible] in this still. And you started with it at 9 minutes, 7
24 seconds. You should put it on the record.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 [Interpretation] The next clip we should stop at 10 minutes, 24
3 [Video-clip played]
4 "Close to cover --"
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. These armed men in civilian clothes, who did they belong to? You
8 A. That I can't remember. I mean, we were -- this is a story I did
9 from the western suburb of Dobrinja which was specifically build for the
10 1984 Sarajevo Winter Olympics. We were taken there by -- in two cars by
11 people of -- under the command of Juka Prazina. As I recall, the man on
12 the left in -- in the shot where you've stopped it was one of Prazina's
13 people there living in Dobrinja. We met others in Dobrinja who were not
14 with Juka Prazina, and these three -- I don't know. I can't remember.
15 Q. Thank you. 10.44 that is the point where we should stop again.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "It's a war now essentially fought by snipers, leaving some
18 unmoved, eyes barely willing to move from a book offering temporary
19 distraction. Yet others tense, eyes fixed on Serb positions just
20 20 metres away."
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. As we heard, the separation lines here were about 20 metres away
23 from one another; isn't that right?
24 A. That's what we were told.
25 Q. This heavy machine-gun that we see here on the screen, that is
1 also from these positions in Dobrinja; isn't that right?
2 A. That was in Dobrinja, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. This is a weapon that belonged to the Muslim forces;
5 A. The Bosnian army. This was not a -- the soldier manning this was
6 not one of Juka Prazina's people and came under the -- the Bosnian army.
7 MR. LUKIC: Let us go on.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "So close, that in the home converted into machine-gun
10 emplacements, the militia men talk in whispers. The siege of Dobrinje is
11 now in its third month and no one here expects it to end soon. Instead
12 both the civilians and the fighters have accustomed themselves to the
13 idea on living through a long, slow war of attrition.
14 "In the home of Dobrinja's commander they watch the amateur video
15 of the event that opened the Dobrinja corridor, their life-line to the
16 outside world."
17 MR. LUKIC:
18 Q. So the members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina engaged in
19 combat and offensive activity they broke the encirclement around
20 Dobrinja, right?
21 A. This was prior to my visit, Your Honours. This is Mojmilo hill
22 and that made it possible for that one track to be opened through which I
23 was driven in to Dobrinja. I should add that other cars tried it that
24 day and all those other cars were hit by rifle fire.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the record we stopped at 11:14.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "van Lynden: It happened three weeks ago when the Serb armoured
3 cars on Mojmilo hill were destroyed and the Serb noose cut at one vital
5 "Dobrinja can never survive under these conditions for as long as
6 we want.
7 "If there is Western military intervention, this war will be
8 finished in a short time, without it this war will last longer.
9 "van Lynden: For the habitants of Dobrinja intervention of a
10 sort of tantalizingly near. Much of the airport the UN now controls,
11 just a hundred yards away. But while the men can watch the convoys of
12 aid snake lazily across the runway, none has yet entered Dobrinja, the
13 one place in Sarajevo where medicine and food are needed most. Where
14 even burying the dead ..."
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Off point is -- 12 minutes 4 seconds.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Here, you reported about persons who were not
18 buried properly due to the war operations. There are crosses on the
19 graves. You know that the Muslims do not mark their graves by crosses;
21 A. I am aware of that. I'm also aware, as I said at the beginning
22 of this story, there were Serbs, Croats and Muslims living in Dobrinja.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 "... had to be done softly in twilight and
25 by the roadside."
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. We see here that all the graves are marked by crosses. That is
3 at least what we see on your footage. 12:09 would be the reference.
4 Do you know at all who were these people were and how they lost
5 their lives? I assume that you do not know?
6 A. Well, we asked, of course, who they were. We were told these
7 were people who had died in the fighting that took place in Dobrinja, and
8 that it had not been able to, given the sick circumstances there, bury
9 them anywhere else but at night by the roadside. That is what we show
11 Do I have the names of all these people, no I did not.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. van Lynden, if you do know, do you know how
13 the Croats mark their graves?
14 THE WITNESS: In the same manner as any other Christian because
15 they are Catholic.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. van Lynden, may I ask an additional question.
18 Do you know that all the graves in that area were marked by
20 THE WITNESS: In my recollection, that was not the case. It may
21 be that in this short section in the video that that's the case. But,
22 no, I remember other graves that were not marked at all.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: Just one second.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In 2246A [as interpreted] that the Prosecutor showed you during
3 the direct examination, you say -- let me remind you of this because we
4 don't have time to play the video.
5 You talk about officer's families and officers, about a thousand
6 of them, who are detained in the Marsal Tito barracks and you say,
7 concerning the barracks, that [In English] "Prime sniper route."
8 [Interpretation] What did you mean by that? Who was it that was
9 targeting the barracks?
10 A. Can I please see a written transcript with.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it 2246A or is it 22460A.
12 MR. LUKIC: 22460A.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: While you're waiting, Mr. Lukic, can I just ask a
16 question. What do you intend to do with 22458B?
17 MR. LUKIC: We don't intend to ask for admission, Your Honour.
18 We just wanted to refresh this gentleman's memory.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know who was it that fired at the Marsal Tito barracks?
22 A. Firstly, I don't think I ever said that there were only officers
23 and their families in the Marsal Tito barracks about a thousand of them.
24 I think I was talking about a thousand soldiers, including officers.
25 Q. [In English] Yes, yes.
1 A. That's the first point.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. What I was saying was that around the Marsal Tito barracks there
4 was shooting going on from both sides.
5 Q. [Interpretation] It is only Muslims that are firing at the
6 barracks; isn't that right?
7 A. It would be the Bosnian army that would be fighting -- shooting
8 at the barracks, but there was also a fire emanating from the barracks.
9 The main road in Sarajevo goes past the barracks and was at that time
10 unusable. It was too dangerous to go there.
11 Q. I think that would be it. Thank you for having answered my
13 MR. LUKIC: I think I complied with your order, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Lukic. The Chamber
15 appreciates that.
16 Mr. Groome, re-examination?
17 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Groome:
19 Q. Mr. van Lynden, today at transcript page 13 and 14 you said that
20 the top floors of the State Hospital where you were working at the time
21 were not being used while you were working there. My question to you is:
22 Do you know why those top floors were not in use?
23 A. They were not being used because the people running the hospital
24 did not believe it was safe to put patients there. Therefore all the
25 patients had been moved to lower floors which were deemed safe.
1 Q. Do you recall how many of the floors were not in use? If you
2 don't, that's fine.
3 A. I -- as -- to the best that I can remember, it was the -- the
4 ground floor, the first, second, third floor that were used but no floors
5 above that. Although doctors did still use some of their offices on
6 higher floors.
7 Q. And why was it -- or do you know why it was that those lower
8 floors were considered safe?
9 A. Because they could not be directly hit.
10 Q. Now in the English language the word "shot" can be used in
11 different ways and I want to ask you to clarify your use of it today just
12 to be sure that there is no misapprehension of your evidence here.
13 Today you said the following :
14 "The cameraman even took one shot through the optic sites in one
15 of the stories."
16 Did you mean a camera shot?
17 A. Yes, I meant a camera shot. It's an unfortunate bit of
18 television language that we ...
19 Q. Just -- I just wanted to make sure that there was no confusion
20 about that.
21 Now, during your examination today at temporary transcript
22 page 45, Mr. Lukic asked you a number of questions regarding the use of
23 artillery and mortars in warfare. In response to one of his questions
24 you said -- and the word "it," I believe, is referring to artillery:
25 "I have seen it used in various war zones of why you have
1 artillery that is basically the same. It can be much more complicated,
2 of course, in mountainous terrain to observe directly the fire as it
3 lands and therefore to make corrections."
4 Can I ask you to explain what you meant by "it can be more
5 complicated in mountainous terrain"?
6 A. Simply that for an artillery unit there is nearly always an
7 observer unit as well to monitor whether the fire is accurately coming
8 down on a certain target. In mountainous terrain it may be more
9 difficult for those observers to be able to see that.
10 Q. Now, in paragraphs 87 to 90 of P66 which is your statement, you
11 describe your visit to several Bosnian Serb positions around Sarajevo.
12 Did this include visits to elevated positions in the hills and mountains
13 around Sarajevo?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you able to tell us from your own observations whether there
16 was a direct line of sight from these positions to the city below?
17 A. Yes, there was.
18 Q. Today at transcript 48 you were asked about the Unis towers. P74
19 in evidence is your report and which includes videos in which one of the
20 towers is seen visibly burning. Are you able to tell us whether the
21 particular tower we see burning in the video is a tower you and your team
23 A. As far as I recall, yes, it was that tower.
24 Q. Today at temporary transcript page T62, 63, Mr. Lukic asked you
25 about your evidence that the Bosnian government forces did not have the
1 ability to fire back at the position which Mladic brought you to.
2 My question to you is the following: We can see for ourselves
3 from your report now in evidence as P76 the demeanour of the people at
4 that location, including yourself. Did you observe Mladic or any of the
5 VRS personnel take precautions against incoming fire at the time you were
6 at that location?
7 A. Absolutely not.
8 Q. Did you see anything that indicated to you that they felt
9 vulnerable to incoming fire?
10 A. No. Nor were we warned that there could be incoming fire.
11 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, during Mr. Lukic's cross-examination of you
12 yesterday and today, he explored the possibility that you may have
13 possessed a bias, that it may have impacted your reporting. Among the
14 exhibits that the Prosecution will tender are three reports that you
15 filed from Bosnian Serb-held areas of Sarajevo. One report, 65
16 ter 22457F is referred to in paragraph 101 of your statement. In another
17 report, 65 ter 22457G referred to in paragraph 1413 of your statement,
18 you report from a funeral of 28 VRS soldiers in Vlasenica and note the
19 gruesome nature of the killing or death of those soldiers. Should the
20 Chamber admit these videos they will be able to view them themselves.
21 However, I would like to show you one of your reports from the
22 Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation lines in Sarajevo, a report you
23 filed on the living conditions of civilians in Grbavica and which you
24 refer to in paragraphs 101 and 104 of your statement?
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time I would now ask
1 Ms. Stewart to play 65 ter 22457C and I will ask her to play the entire
3 [Video-clip played]
4 "Reporter: The Serb position is a commanding one. They have the
5 whole of Sarajevo in their sights with tree-tops shorn to provide better
6 fields of fire. The slopes are practically unsurmountable to direct
7 attack and the lines of sturdy log cabins, some already being prepared
8 for winter have an air of permanence. For the moment, the Serb guardians
9 of these hilltop strongholds appear relaxed. They are adamant that
10 anything won in the battle cannot be surrendered in negotiation.
11 "Unidentified soldier: Giving any territory away would be a
12 great treason against the Serb people and a Serb capitulation.
13 "Reporter: In Grbavica, the only district of central Sarajevo
14 the Serbs control, that opinion was shared by all the soldiers. Even if
15 many of these elderly civilian congregating to collect their pensions are
16 Muslims. The war, having halted earlier, now they receive allotted share
17 for April and May. It's meager, between three and eight pounds per
18 person, which cannot buy a lot in an adjacent shop, plentiful by Sarajevo
19 standards. Then, the calm of the morning is shattered by a sniper's
20 bullet. A woman is hit and a 20-millimetre gun of an APC fires a
21 concerted riposte. The threat of the snipers forces any approach to the
22 front lines to be made crouched and at speed. Here, the guns are seldom
24 "Neither the London Conference with all its stated promises and
25 principles, nor the continuing talks in Geneva would appear to have made
1 one jot of difference here. The shooting and the siege continue, just as
2 they have done for the past five months. Much of the front line that
3 divides Grbavica from the rest of Sarajevo is a natural one: The river
4 Miljacka, its bridges, watch continually from apartment block machine-gun
5 nest, not all of them real. One gun manned by an obese decoy. Here, as
6 on the hillside, the mood is an uncompromising one.
7 "We are against it, we are against any concessions.
8 "It could have been resolved politically before but not anymore.
9 Now -- only militarily until victory.
10 "Reporter: Yet, at rare times, even here, there is a compassion.
11 A solitary Muslim woman allowed to cross the river in safety. Freeing
12 her from Serb control, leaving her in a city besieged by them.
13 Aernout van Lynden, Sky News, Sarajevo."
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. Mr. van Lynden, to be clear, this report was filmed in
16 Serb-controlled territory in the Grbavica area; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And again, so the record is clear, when you report that a woman
19 in Grbavica was hit by sniper fire, was this woman also a civilian in the
20 Serb-held part of Grbavica?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And, lastly, the elderly woman we see crossing the bridge, was
23 this the same elderly woman that you referred to in your testimony
24 earlier today?
25 A. It is.
1 Q. Mr. van Lynden, you have given evidence about those occasions,
2 several occasions, when you sought but were refused access to
3 Serb-controlled areas. Had you been given access, are you able to say
4 whether it would have been likely that you would have filed additional
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. Yesterday Mr. Lukic suggested to you that Rupert Murdoch and his
8 company may have influenced your reporting.
9 Am I correct that you taped the narrative of your reports and --
10 and the video excerpts that we saw yesterday, and that these recorded
11 narratives and the video footage was then sent to the editor who put the
12 narrative of your voice plus the video together.
13 Is that a correct understanding of how it worked?
14 A. Usually how it works is that I will work directly with the
15 editor. When he is putting the report together I will be sitting next to
16 him. In that one period between would work with the director I in that
17 one period between the end of May and early June 1992, then I put my
18 voice down on tape and there was a separate tape with the pictures and
19 then it was the editor that did it in Pale. But at nearly every other
20 occasion I would always be sitting next to the picture editor when the
21 report is being put together.
22 Q. Was there ever an occasion when your taped narrative of your
23 report that you filed was ever edited by anyone in Sky News at any
24 location in any way that you believed altered the meaning of the report
25 as you filed it?
1 A. Not that I am aware of, no.
2 Q. Would you have tolerated any attempt to change or influence the
3 reports that you filed?
4 A. I suspect I would not.
5 Q. And let me put to you directly what Mr. Lukic has suggested to
6 you: Were you biased in your reporting of the events in Bosnia?
7 A. I do not believe that I was.
8 Q. Did you endeavor to be impartial?
9 A. Absolutely, that is our job.
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
13 Mr. van Lynden, that brings us to the end of your testimony. The
14 Chamber takes this opportunity to thank you very much for coming to the
15 Tribunal to testify. You are now excused. You may stand down and travel
16 well back home.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I see you're on your feet, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm standing to deal with the matters
23 of the associated exhibits, if the Chamber believes that is something
24 that we can productively do at this time.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
1 MR. GROOME: Before I deal with them, there is the matter of P67
2 which has been marked for identification. That was the panoramic view of
3 Sarajevo and Mr. Lukic asked to defer his submissions on that until after
4 the witness concluded the testimony, so I will --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much for that. That's the point
6 the Chamber was going to raise. Mr. Lukic, what do you have to say about
7 P67, MFI?
8 MR. LUKIC: No objections Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 Madam Registrar, P67 MFI is now admitted and you can remove the
11 MFI status.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there are ten associated videos which
13 are discussed in the statement that the Prosecution at this time tenders
14 as associated exhibits. I will be guided by the Chamber. I can simply
15 list each one or we can deal with each one individually. I will be
16 guided by whatever the Chamber thinks to be more efficient.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Given the time remaining before we are supposed to
18 retire for the day, I would suggest that you make a globular tendering
19 and let's hear what Mr. Lukic has to say.
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution tenders and the
21 following are all 65 ter numbers: 07742A; 22457A; 22457C; 22457F;
22 22457G; 22458B, and I note that is the particular video that Mr. Lukic
23 asked the witness about; 22459B; 2249C -- sorry. 22459C; 22459D; and
25 And those are the ten exhibits, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, are you able to make a globular
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, very briefly.
4 We object. Why we showed this 22458B is exactly to show that
5 it's not in the video what was represented to us. And Otes video we --
6 we cut ourselves was also different from what was represented to us, that
7 it shows and that represents.
8 So if we want to see -- to have videos in evidence we have to ask
9 creator what does it mean and what's depicted inside or what was taped.
10 So we object to all of these associated exhibits.
11 And one of the documents is the diary of Radovan Karadzic, so ...
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you made a globular objection to all of
13 them, but I hear you in your address talking about two clips. The Otes
14 clip and the clip that you showed, another one, that the 22458B.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure how we stand for time ...
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Judge Fluegge is sitting in this court in half an
19 hour, in this courtroom. I am inclined, therefore, to postpone this
20 objection and deal with it in the next session. Okay.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Groome you stood up when Mr. Lukic talked
23 about what we called the Karadzic notebook. Is that what -- you're going
24 to respond to that?
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'm happy to do it tomorrow
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you sure about that?
3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] put on the record whatever
5 you want to say.
6 MR. GROOME: It's okay, Your Honour, I appreciate the time
7 pressure that we are under.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00
9 in the morning, in the same courtroom.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of
13 August, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.