1 Friday, 24 August 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.53 a.m.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
12 Could we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,
13 please, for the day.
14 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Prosecution
15 today I am Dermot Groome, along with Lorna Bolton and Julia Lee, and we
16 are assisted by Ms. Janet Stewart and Ms. Bojana Vuleta.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And for the Defence.
18 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence this
19 morning are present Branko Lukic, Milos Saljic, Miodrag Stojanovic, and
20 Dan Ivetic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
22 As always, let's start off by placing on the record that the
23 Chamber continues to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis for the same reason as
24 we did yesterday.
25 The Chamber just wants to apologise to everybody for the late
1 start today. It's occasioned by the fact that the system -- our IT
2 system went down. It was a problem beyond anybody's control.
3 Yesterday the Prosecution brought to the attention of the Chamber
4 that it takes issue with the accused's misbehaviour in court. In
5 particular with incidents of insults directed by the accused to the
6 witnesses and his practice of shouting instructions to the Defence team.
7 The Defence asked for time, and we would like to hear from you,
8 Mr. Lukic, if you have any response.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we do. Thank you.
10 So we are ready to answer your questions in regard to shouting
11 incident by our client two days ago.
12 First of all, we want to thank you, Your Honours, for giving us
13 the time to investigate ourselves what happened on that occasion.
14 Secondly, we want to inform Your Honours that we are taking this
15 issue very seriously.
16 The whole team is aware of Mr. Mladic's poor health, and
17 according to medical documentation we have at this moment, and given his
18 history of having suffered three strokes, he is readily irritable and
19 easily agitated. This is the reason why we have more members of our team
20 in the courtroom so that we are able to consult, constantly communicate
21 with Mr. Mladic, and to try and soothe his anxiety.
22 As a pretext, Your Honours should know that the tone of voice
23 Mr. Mladic uses in court is considered normal when communicating with the
24 members of our team. We have to say that it is not alarming to us
25 anymore, but we do understand that the Court is not in the same position
1 to let -- to let it go unnoticed.
2 I will now address the conduct of each member of our team.
3 Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Ivetic were helping me with the documents
4 and with the exhibits and all three of us were mostly concentrated on the
5 witness. At the same time, both Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Ivetic stood up
6 many times to approach Mr. Mladic on that day and to calm him down, since
7 he was obviously very upset with the testimony of Mr. Van Lynden.
8 Mr. Saljic also stood up several times to take written messages from our
9 client and to talk to him.
10 I was completely unaware of any words or sentences pronounced by
11 Mr. Mladic. I did hear his voice in the background, and so I asked
12 Mr. Stojanovic on several occasions to talk to Mr. Mladic. This was only
13 if I noticed that Mr. Saljic, having both headphones on his ears, did not
14 hear Mr. Mladic at all.
15 Mr. Groome said that he tasked one of his members -- one of the
16 members of his team to follow what Mr. Mladic said in the courtroom, and
17 that is probably the only way to be able to hear what he said during the
18 cross-examination of the witness.
19 With regard to the proposal of the Prosecution that the
20 microphone of Mr. Mladic be kept on, respectfully, that would endanger
21 the right of the accused to communicate with counsel and assist counsel
22 in this case where he have already had to suffer a lot of handicaps that
23 prevent us from working with full efficiency and require us to need to
24 communicate in the courtroom more and would be doable time on tasks in
25 the courtroom, due to the fact we do not have a full pre-trial period
1 with the Prosecution documents which were only given to us late, just
2 before trial started and just after trial started.
3 To eliminate the ability to have counsel/client communications in
4 the courtroom would be a further blow to the rights of the accused and to
5 the fairness of the proceedings. We must urge the Chamber to consider
6 that also with the set-up of this courtroom, Mr. Mladic is further away
7 from counsel than in the other courtroom, which is another factor that
8 adds to the situation.
9 Mr. Mladic reacts due to a frustration with the process that has
10 seen whereby he has complained of serious health problems that prevent
11 his from sitting -- prevent him from sitting the number of hours and
12 morning hours that we are sitting. He is further frustrated by his
13 perception that the Prosecution, in his mind, hides documents and late
14 discloses them constantly. And when he then perceives witness are
15 telling untruths towards him to -- he overreacts, and often it is before
16 we can do anything about it.
17 We, on the Defence, are constantly trying to tell him to speak
18 more softly and not to make outbursts and even come over to him to try to
19 eliminate the amount of shouting that occurs.
20 So, however, this Court has to remember that Mr. Mladic is a man
21 who has had three strokes and is not 100 percent recovered. His health
22 is diminished and all these factors frustrate him, and his frustration
23 has caused him to overreact. He has already told you he is unable to
24 prepare breakfast to himself due to these early sitting hours and his
25 deteriorating mobility. He has already told you about problems with food
1 he is given and that he often goes without eating any of it. For a man
2 of his health to sit tired, sick, and hungry for so long and then listen
3 to emotional and heated evidence is just simply too much at times. We
4 also learned two days ago that if he doesn't eat, the medicine for his
5 high blood pressure wouldn't have any effect at all, so not only that he
6 has that high blood pressure but having had those medicines on empty
7 stomach does not do any good to him. But still we promise that we will
8 do our best in the future to talk to Mr. Mladic, to calm him down, and to
9 try to eliminate any outbursts in this courtroom. Of course, it would be
10 much easier for us in Courtroom I where we are much closer to our client
11 and we can communicate more swiftly and more often.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We've heard what you have said. You've told us
16 why Mr. Mladic gets irritable. You haven't told us why Mr. Mladic reacts
17 by insulting people. I would like to understand why he insults people.
18 We all have our ailments as we here. None of is 100 percent
19 healthy. We all have our irritations, but we still treat one another
20 with decency. I want to know why he insults people in court when they
21 are giving evidence and why you as the team, the Defence team, do not
22 control him and tell him not to insult people. And that he can be heard
23 by people on the Prosecution side and none of you on that side doesn't
24 hear -- doesn't hear him.
25 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I tried to explain, if I may --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm saying to you your explanation doesn't explain
2 the issues that I have just raised with you. You are not telling me why
3 in his irritation he reacts by insulting people. You're not telling me
4 why your team doesn't hear those insults.
5 MR. LUKIC: I tried to explain you that, that that tone is usual
6 tone to us, so we don't react with surprise when he shouts or yells. He
7 talks to us in the same way.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you -- that -- you're not answering my
9 question. Precisely because of that tone which is normal to you, you
10 should hear him and you should hear his insult and you should react to
11 it. And why don't you?
12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I think that you remember that I was
13 crossing the witness [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not saying you, Mr. Lukic. I'm saying your
15 team. Your entire team. There are four of you in court here.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's exactly why we have so many team members
17 in the courtroom.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. And none of you can hear him saying
19 insults and he can be heard by people on that side?
20 MR. LUKIC: If you -- we tried to explain that. Mr. Groome
21 employed one of his members to exactly follow what Mr. Mladic is saying.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You tell your client - I know he is listening, but
23 you tell him - that if he wants to stay in this court and listen to his
24 trial he must behave. If he doesn't behave, this Court has measures it
25 can take. Okay? And behaviour means he must sit quietly there. If he
1 has anything to say to you, he must write you a note, give it to you, and
2 if he has to talk to you, he must talk softly, and he must stop insulting
3 witnesses who come into this Court.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 Mr. Lukic, how much longer are you likely to be with this
8 MR. LUKIC: It's Mr. Ivetic again, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I anticipate finishing sometime in the
11 middle of the next session.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry for interrupting.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Can we go to a private session for one minute or two.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
17 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: I just want kindly to ask Your Honours to listen to
22 Mr. Mladic. If you want to hear explanation from him, maybe that would
23 be better -- the best. He just needs one or two minutes, why he shouted
24 at that time.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't think the Chamber is interested to hear
1 why he shouted. The Chamber would have wanted to know why he insults
2 people, and if he is not going to answer that, the Chamber is not
4 MR. LUKIC: Can I just briefly approach my client.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, approach him.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. LUKIC: Then can I communicate the message from
9 General Mladic to Your Honours?
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
11 MR. LUKIC: He is also telling me that he -- he feels sick. He's
12 sorry that he insulted anybody and he has no intention to insult anybody
13 in the future, and he wants to apologise to everybody who heard what he
14 said at that moment -- at that time.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a much better response.
18 May we move into open session now.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Madam Bolton, given what Mr. Ivetic mentions -- mentioned a few
25 minutes ago, that he will probably be done with the witness in the next
1 session, how does this impact on your witness scheduling?
2 MS. BOLTON: We think there will be time to perhaps deal well one
3 brief witness after, and that would be RM115 in today's session. And
4 then we will -- we've talked to the Defence. We would purport on Monday
5 to deal with RM147, and once that individual is done, RM128.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much.
7 May the witness please be brought in.
8 MS. BOLTON: Did Your Honours wish to hear the objection while
9 the witness is being brought in or a -- we had left off the session
10 yesterday with the issue of whether I had an objection to a question.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed, Madam Bolton. Thank you so much. Yeah,
12 can we hear you.
13 MS. BOLTON: Certainly. So first there was just an issue I
14 wanted to respond to with respect to the provenance of the document that
15 Mr. Ivetic had raised, indicating he didn't know the provenance of the
16 documents. I should just indicate that that information is available in
17 the EDS system, and if needed the Prosecution can assist him in locating
18 that, but the document in question he was asking about was the second
19 interview of Sefer Halilovic, and the provenance of that document is that
20 it was obtained from Brian Lapping Associates, which is a film and
21 production company. So if that assists my friend it was some kind of an
22 interview and that's a company that, as I understand it, produces
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you Madam Bolton.
25 MS. BOLTON: So with respect to the objection, Your Honour, it
1 had to do with a question that was page 1569 of the transcript. It
2 probably would assist Your Honours if you had that before you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
4 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 The question then was posed after my friend read a portion of
6 that Halilovic interview I just alluded to to the witness, and the
7 portion that was read to him is set on page 1569 at approximately lines 5
8 to 14, and my objection to the question is threefold. My primary
9 objection is the question -- the way the question is worded, it
10 presupposes facts not in evidence and that the witness wasn't given a
11 fair opportunity to respond to. And the second and third objections have
12 to do with the way the question was worded, that it misrepresented what
13 the actual document said.
14 So if I could deal with the issue of not giving the witness a
15 fair opportunity. The question as worded says -- and I'm looking at
16 lines, approximately, 16 and on:
17 "Did your monitors report to you of such a situation in the
18 municipalities, that is to say, where the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic League
19 of the SDA had established 98 municipal headquarters and had 80.000 men
20 under arms and 126.000 organised men ready to make war?"
21 And my problem with the wording of the question is that the last
22 part of the question, where he says: "Where the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic
23 League had ..." and continues on to state those facts, presupposes that
24 those are, in fact, true without ever having asked the witness, Do you
25 have any knowledge as to whether, in fact, what is indicated in
1 Mr. Halilovic's statement was or wasn't true. It just sort of skips that
2 step and now the witness has no opportunity to say, Well, I have no
3 knowledge of whether that's true or not. So whether it was reported to
4 me or not, is a separate issue.
5 Secondly, in terms of the way the question is worded, the first
6 paragraph alludes to the establishment of nine regional headquarters, and
7 my friend has indicated those are of the Bosnian Muslim Patriotic League
8 in his question. And that simply isn't included, that information in the
9 portion that was put to the witness. So he's added some information that
10 isn't actually in the statement that was read to him.
11 And, finally, he suggested that these headquarters and the 80.000
12 men were in the municipalities by the way he has worded his questions.
13 And, in fact, when I read the first paragraph that was quoted to the
14 witness, I don't read it as applying only to the municipalities. It
15 seems to be Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole. There's certain no indication
16 in that paragraph that we're talking about that number of men in the
18 So those are my objections, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Bolton.
20 Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, just briefly. I think as Your Honours
22 have seen with other documents that I've shown to the witness, I'm not
23 seeking to admit these documents or asserting them for the truth of the
24 matter asserted, I'm using them to -- I give a bases for questions and
25 inquiring of the witness what types of knowledge were or were not
1 available to his mission while he was a member of it.
2 I have therefore presented a quotation, I asked the question, the
3 witness is free to answer the question any way he has knowledge of it,
4 whether he does or does not. That's what I have been doing with the
5 other questions.
6 With respect to the municipalities issue, I don't know whether
7 counsel is aware, but Bosnia-Herzegovina only consists of municipalities
8 at that time. That was the entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 municipalities. The municipal opstina was the administrative unit that
10 comprised what would be the equivalent of counties or some other type of
11 geographic subdivision. So when I say "municipalities" I mean the
12 entirety of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I apologise if that was not clear from
13 the question, and I leave it to Your Honours whether we can have the
14 witness's assistance to find out the answer to the question.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the objection is going to be upheld,
17 Mr. Ivetic. I would -- in addition to Madam Bolton's arguments, your
18 questions are too compound. You're asking -- if you take them one fact
19 at a time, the witness will be able to understand exactly what it is
20 you're asking for and he will be able to answer your question. This kind
21 of objection would be obviated.
22 Thank you so much.
23 Good morning to you Mr. Doyle, and I'm sorry that you've been in
24 the courtroom for sometime and we're talking as if you are not here, and
25 that also that you waited outside for some time. We had technical
1 problems in the morning, that's why we started late.
2 Just to remind you that you are still bound by the declaration
3 you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the truth, the whole
4 truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Doyle.
7 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: COLM DOYLE [Resumed]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Good morning again, Colonel. I would like to break down the
13 question I asked and ask you sir: As part of the European Community
14 Monitoring Mission, did your organisation have any knowledge reported to
15 them about the SDA having 80.000 men under arms in the -- on the
16 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the relevant time-period?
17 A. No, it did not.
18 Q. Did your organisation have knowledge of the establishment of 98
19 municipal headquarters on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the SDA
20 at that time --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, do you want to know whether the
22 organisation had knowledge or whether the witness had knowledge.
23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. You're correct, Your Honour.
24 Q. Sir, did you have knowledge of the establishment of 98 municipal
25 headquarters by the SDA on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
2 MS. BOLTON: Yes, I'm sorry. The way the question is worded, I
3 still object to.
4 The question of whether he had knowledge is only relevant if, in
5 fact, the fact is true. So if, in fact, there were 80.000 men, then
6 whether or not he knew about it is relevant. But without asking him if
7 that's a fact that he knew to be true, then there's no relevance to
8 whether he knew something that may or may not have been true.
9 It may just be the way that it's worded. It may be that my
10 friend is actually trying to ask, Are you aware -- or, you know, is that
11 something that you can confirm or deny. But it's the way it's being
12 worded that I object to.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, any response?
14 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe I have been very clear and I
15 think that the question is proper, but I will be guided by Your Honours
16 in any way that you decide. Thank you.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Doyle, do you know of the strength of the Army
18 of the Bosnian -- the strength of the Bosnian army at the time that
19 Mr. Ivetic is asking about?
20 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I did not.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] You're welcome.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Sir, during your contacts with Serb personnel in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period that you were part of the
2 mission and part of Lord Carrington's separate negotiating team, did
3 these Serb personnel complain to you of the existence of SDA-sponsored
4 armed paramilitary groups?
5 A. No, not specifically.
6 Q. Based upon -- strike that.
7 Would you agree with me that whatever the number of these armed
8 Bosnian Muslim personnel on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that
9 they were paramilitary in nature? That is to say, illegal.
10 A. No. The monitor mission and I personally was aware that there
11 was a considerable amount of Bosnian Serbs that were not members of the
12 JNA but were termed by us to be paramilitary. The exact break down of
13 them we didn't have knowledge of. At that time there was a lot of people
14 moving about who were bearing arms. They didn't wear uniforms. So the
15 mission would have collectively referred to them as paramilitaries.
16 Q. And, sir, you have limited your answer to Bosnian Serbs. Would I
17 be correct that Bosnian Muslims who were not a part of the JNA at that
18 time walking around armed were also paramilitaries under that definition?
19 A. Yes, I would say there were. But the comparison in numbers was
20 extremely unequal.
21 Q. Would you agree with me that insofar as the assertions of
22 Mr. Halilovic were unknown to you at the time, that they would have to be
23 investigated in order to reach a full and accurate assessment, as in
24 paragraph 15 of your statement, as to which parties were armed - and I do
25 apologise -- oh, you do have your statement, paragraph 15 of your
1 statement - and the assessment that you made therein?
2 A. I would say the monitor mission at that time was not -- it wasn't
3 its role to actually ascertain numbers, figures, or armaments. As I
4 previously explained, it was important for us to hold our impartiality.
5 Therefore, we weren't in the area of investigating numbers or armaments
6 of that nature.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, the statement is P91.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Judge Fluegge.
9 Q. Colonel Doyle, would you agree with me that at that time that
10 we're talking about, let us say 1991 up through March of 1992 when you
11 were with the European Community Monitoring Mission, during that time the
12 JNA was the legitimate armed force of the socialist federated republic of
13 Yugoslavia, of which Bosnia-Herzegovina was still a member?
14 A. Yes, I agree.
15 Q. Sir, General Halilovic asserted the existence of diversionary
16 units on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Would you agree with me
17 that such units are usually clandestine in nature and utilise sabotage
18 and subterfuge to obtain mission objectives?
19 A. I'm not familiar with the term "diversionary units." I don't
20 know what they mean.
21 Q. Fair enough.
22 MR. IVETIC: If we can briefly turn to Prosecution 65 ter 10944.
23 And I apologise, let me just check to see if that one has a number.
24 That's P93. And once that comes up on the system, if we can look at the
25 first page in English.
1 And, sir, while that is coming up on the screen I can give you an
2 introduction. This report authored by you from March 1992 memorialises
3 several demands of the SDS that you were relaying as part of your report,
4 and it -- one of the demands is for disbandment of the, quote/unquote,
5 Green Berets who are identified as the special security for the SDA
6 party. And I wanted just verify with you, would this be the Bosnian
7 Muslim political party affiliated with Mr. Izetbegovic that we had
8 discussed yesterday?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
10 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, maybe I'm slow, I'm just not seeing the
11 reference to Green Berets on that page. Am I missing it? Oh, yes, no,
12 thank you. Sorry, it's the last line. My apologies.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 Q. Colonel Doyle, am I correct that the Green Berets were the
16 special security for the SDA party of Mr. Izetbegovic?
17 A. Yes, I'd say they were, but I'm -- the reference directly to
18 Izetbegovic I don't think is accurate. It was the special security for
19 the SDA, not necessarily the president. You referred to the SDA party,
20 and then you referred to President Izetbegovic. I would agree they were
21 part of the SDA party. Not necessarily -- you're saying that as if they
22 were personally his troops. That's not the reference I would --
23 Q. I apologise for a poorly worded question and I thank you for your
24 explanation, which answers what I was asking.
25 Now, I want to turn to paragraph 63 of your statement.
1 MR. IVETIC: And, if in the meantime, we pull up in e-court
2 Prosecution 65 ter number 10969. Sir, in this paragraph of your
3 statement you discuss the Croatian element in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'd
4 like to present to you this document and ask you to confirm whether, in
5 fact, this is also a report authored by you while part of the European
6 Community Monitoring Mission?
7 A. Yes, it was my report.
8 Q. Okay. And with respect to the first page of the report, and if
9 we can zoom in on the second half. It starts at the middle of the page
10 and goes down. We have here you have stated: "We have in territory Neum
11 a de facto invasion of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Croatian Army. There
12 are large numbers of Croatian soldiers involved, but they are described
13 by the Croatian Army as local defence forces, which the Croatian Army
14 cannot control. These local defence forces are (admitted by Croatian
15 Army) equipped, organised, and advised by the Croatian Army. They use
16 Croatian Army trucks with Croatian Army markings, have new rifles, new
17 uniforms, new steel helmets, and come to work every evening from the Neum
18 and Metkovic areas [sic]."
19 Sir, my first question in relation to this is would you agree
20 with me that these facts also need to be considered in regards to your
21 assessment at paragraph 15 of your report, that one side in Bosnia was
22 becoming armed, and would you agree with me now having been reminded of
23 the words in your report?
24 A. The report was made out after I paid a visit to the area of Neum
25 and expressed my surprise at the open way in which Croatian flags and
1 troops wearing -- Croatian uniforms were being worn, and I felt obliged
2 to bring the content of my findings both to the monitor mission and to
3 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. And would you agree with me that this information is relevant to
5 your assessment in paragraph 15 of your statement that only one side was
6 being armed in Bosnia-Herzegovina? To complete the picture and
7 supplement your assessment.
8 A. Yes, you could make that assertion all right.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you happen to know approximately how many
10 Croatian Army troops had crossed over into Bosnia-Herzegovina with new
11 rifles and new uniforms that are the subject of your report here that we
12 have in front of us?
13 A. No, I don't have any idea of the exact numbers. These are
14 reports that were given to me by people who lived in the area.
15 Q. If we can turn to the next page, I think we can then also talk
16 about some other matters that people in the area told you. On the next
17 page at the top -- starting at the top. I will not read the entire
18 section, but you are welcome to refer to any section there.
19 Sir, in this part of the report you talk about the ECMM
20 investigation that went and talked to villagers and found that contrary
21 to the complaints made by the mayor of Neum, the local villagers had no
22 problems with the JNA and that the JNA did not abuse them and was well
23 behaved but, in fact, the Croatian Army forces were threatening and
24 abusing villagers.
25 Is that -- does that comport with your recollection of what the
1 results of the ECMM investigation in this area revealed to you?
2 A. Well, if I can briefly explain here, the monitor mission in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not carry out any investigation. This would have
4 been done by the monitor mission in Croatia itself that would been of
5 covering those areas from where those troops may have come from. Now, as
6 I previously explained, communications between both sides of the monitor
7 mission were not open and clear at that stage, so I was basing this on
8 information I would have received and on reports that may have been given
9 by the monitor mission on the other side.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. And, sir, am I correct that despite the fact
11 that you reported up to your superiors the existence of these Croatian
12 troops on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that, in fact, there were
13 no public proclamations by the EC condemning the presence of these troops
14 on this territory?
15 A. I have no knowledge of whether there was not at that time. I
16 can't -- I can't say whether there was any pronouncement or not.
17 Q. Would you expect that any pronouncements that were made would
18 have been made and available to you, that you would know about them?
19 A. No, not necessarily. I had very little political contact
20 outside. I dealt strictly with my own chain of command.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, I believe from reviewing your other reports
22 and some of your testimony in, for instance, the Milosevic or Karadzic
23 cases, that you also have knowledge of two other groups, the ZNG and the
24 HOS. Is that accurate?
25 A. I was familiar with the phrase HOS. The ZNG I'm not familiar
2 Q. It might have been a report authored by one your colleagues, I
4 With respect to the HOS, would you agree that this was also an
5 armed group that could be coined a paramilitary operating within the
6 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time-period that you were part
7 of the ECMM mission?
8 A. Yes, I would accept that.
9 Q. And if you know, what ethnic political or national group were
10 behind the HOS?
11 A. Croats.
12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now move along to another topic, sir.
13 MR. IVETIC: First of all, Your Honours, this is, I believe,
14 already -- yeah, it's already an exhibit. I apologise.
15 Q. As part of your briefing --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which number, Mr. Ivetic?
17 MR. IVETIC: This is P93, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, P93 is already in. But you have been
19 handling 65 ter 10969. We'd like to know what you intend to do with
21 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honours. If I can find which one
22 that is.
23 969, Your Honours?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] was it 969 or 169? I'm
25 sorry, we have two different numbers with --
1 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. 10969 I would like to
2 tender that into evidence.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: 10969.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Previously it was recorded that you mentioned
5 10169. So that is a correction now.
6 MR. IVETIC: I apologise Your Honours, and thank you for that
8 MS. BOLTON: No objection, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
10 65 ter 10969 is admitted into evidence. May it please be given
11 an exhibit number, Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: 10969 becomes Exhibit D38, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Colonel, as part of your briefing in preparation for the
17 deployment to Yugoslavia, did the -- did you receive any primers on the
18 political platforms or policies of any of the political parties in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina such as the SDA?
20 A. No, beyond being briefed on the makeup and beyond being informed
21 that there were three main political parties, but we were given no
23 Q. Did you -- or were you aware of the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic had
24 republished an earlier book that he had written in 1990 shortly before
25 the ECMM became involved in -- or was deployed to the territory of
2 A. No.
3 Q. I would like to briefly just show you one page from 1D00172, and
4 it would be the 30th page in e-court in English and the 22nd page in
5 B/C/S. This is from the 1990 book of Mr. Izetbegovic, "The Islamic
7 MS. BOLTON: Yes, Your Honours. I'd have an objection to the
8 witness being questioned about this document. This is a book, as my
9 friend indicates, published in 1969 to 1970, originally. It is -- first
10 of all, I can indicate that the copy that is in e-court doesn't have a
11 publishing location or the name of the publisher. I can't tell if the
12 book -- if this is actually a true copy or a true translation of the
13 book. It just says "Sarajevo 1990."
14 And, secondly what on earth could this witness have to say about
15 a book that was written that does -- 1969/1970? It's not going to
16 contain any information about Mr. Doyle or his mission, because clearly
17 he wasn't there in 1969 or 1990. He didn't write -- he is not the author
18 of the book. He's just going to be asking him to comment on some
19 passages and it's an inappropriate line of questioning. He is not going
20 to have any facts, knowledge of this -- contents of his book or what --
21 and his opinion on whatever is said in the book isn't going to have any
22 relevance. He is not here as an expert.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, can I suggest that you wait until an
24 objectionable question is asked and then you object.
25 Thank you.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. And just for the record,
2 so I can already allay any fears, I'm not seeking to introduce this. I'm
3 just following the practice I've had, for the benefit of the translators
4 and the witness, of having items that I want to ask him about presented
5 on e-court. I will not be seeking to tender this because I do not
6 believe the witness can -- the witness to introduce this type of book
7 into evidence.
8 Q. Sir, I believe we have the relevant page, page 30 in the English
9 and page 22 in the B/C/S. And the brief selection I want to ask you
10 about starts off, I believe, in the middle of that page. And it says:
11 "First and foremost of these conclusions is certainly the incompatibility
12 of Islam with non-Islamic systems. There can be neither peace nor
13 co-existence between the Islamic religion and non-Islamic social and
14 political institutions."
15 And the question I wanted to have for you sir is: In the course
16 of your dealings and contacts with Mr. Izetbegovic, did he espouse such a
17 position that there could not be peaceful co-existence between Islamic
18 and non-Islam institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. No, he did not.
20 Q. Was the -- were the views expressed by Mr. Izetbegovic in this
21 book constantly causing concern for non-Islamic members of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina political leaders with whom you had contact as part of
23 the ECMM mission? Was this book constantly being raised as a fear on
24 behalf of Croat and Muslim political officials in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
25 A. Not to my knowledge.
1 Q. I apologise. I meant Croat and Serb. Did you understand my
2 question? Was it being -- [Overlapping speakers].
3 A. Yes, I understand your question. No, it wasn't.
4 Q. Thank you. Then I move on. In paragraphs 91 through 95 of your
5 statement, you discuss the incidents that occurred beginning of the
6 2nd of May 1992 when Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries, as you phrase it,
7 surrounded the JNA headquarters and the subsequent negotiations to try
8 and release this blockade to effectuate the withdrawal of the JNA, and
9 you briefly mention the attack person perpetrated by these Bosnian Muslim
10 paramilitaries upon the withdrawing JNA.
11 With that as a background, I'd like to show you a document
12 labelled 1D0011. And while we wait for that, sir, this is dated the 29th
13 of April, 1992, just a few days before this time-period when you say that
14 the paramilitaries surrounded the JNA, and while we're waiting for the
15 document, first --
16 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. Document 1D0011 is not in e-court.
17 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. Let me double-check the number.
18 I'm sorry, it's 1D00111. 111.
19 Q. And perhaps, sir, while we're waiting for that I can ask you in
20 the course of your dealings - there we go - in the course of your
21 dealings with personnel in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you ever have occasion
22 to hear the name or become familiar with an individual by name of
23 Hasan Efendic?
24 A. I'm not familiar with the name. If I knew what the appointment
25 was, I might have a recollection of -- of -- of who this person was.
1 But, offhand, no.
2 Q. Well, sir, perhaps this document can refresh your recollection.
3 This is a document that purports to the headquarter of the
4 Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's
5 signed by Commanding Officer Colonel Hasan Efendic. Does that refresh
6 your recollection?
7 A. No. Actually, I don't remember this officer.
8 Q. Fair enough. If we look at the items marked 1 through 4 in the
9 middle of this order, and first of all we see from the text it's an
10 order. This essentially orders that the units of the Republic of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina Territorial Defence blockade the roads, blockade the
12 JNA barracks, and orders the immediate planning and initiation of
13 military action throughout the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Do these orders appear to coincide with the facts that you witnessed and
15 testified about occurring in Sarajevo starting 2 March 1992?
16 A. Let me just explain this, if I may.
17 From that period of the start of May, I had no direct personal
18 involvement. When you refer, for example, to the events that took place
19 around the besieged headquarters, I was held as a hostage in Lukavica by
20 the JNA because in my negotiations to release the president, the
21 commander did not want to allow his daughter to accompany him. So the
22 agreement was I would stay behind as collateral, as it were. So I was
23 not accompanying the president or General McKenzie when they went to
24 exchange him, and therefore I did not see the military barracks that had
25 been besieged at that stage.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned -- I apologise. At paragraph 94
2 of your statement you identify that a certain number of JNA soldiers were
3 killed, and I believe you say approximately 170 soldiers were captured as
4 part of this withdrawal when they were attacked. Do you recall that, in
5 fact, that the number was 29 JNA personnel killed as part of this convoy?
6 A. I have no information as to the exact number who -- that were
7 killed. There were various figures being bandied about by all sides.
8 When I was held behind in Lukavica, there was a police officer
9 who was repeating information he claimed he was getting from the centre
10 of Sarajevo. Most of the information was totally exaggerated. I was
11 told that bodies were being burnt, that soldiers were being stripped
12 naked, so it was very difficult to know exactly. I was basing these
13 figures on the estimated number as given to me by the monitor mission.
14 Q. Fair enough, sir. You've anticipated my next question. Did the
15 monitoring mission also advise you that on that same time-period, that
16 same two-day-time period, that there were other attacks in other parts of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina upon JNA convoys that were withdrawing from barracks?
18 A. I did not have any information of that nature, no.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And may I just repeat that at that stage I was not a member of
21 the monitoring mission. I was a personal representative of
22 Lord Carrington and therefore would not have been seeking such
23 information from the monitor mission.
24 Q. Thank you. And you're absolutely correct in that clarification.
25 Yesterday you mentioned that during direct examination that the
1 ECMM monitors from Bosnia were not permitted to visit the 9th JNA Army
2 Corps due to General Mladic. Am I correct that the 9th Corps was based
3 not in Bosnia but rather on the territory of Republic of Croatia?
4 A. Yes, at that stage. Yes, I think its headquarters would have
5 been in Knin which is in Croatia.
6 Q. And am I correct, then, that there was a separate ECMM mission
7 with a Colonel Puhoz [phoen] that was in charge of liaising with those
8 units stationed in that part of the Republic of Croatia's boundaries?
9 A. I -- I simply don't know. I do know that there was a liaison
10 officer attached to our mission, a JNA officer. But what prevailed in
11 Croatia, I don't know.
12 Q. And did you know that Mr. Mladic only assumed command of the
13 9th Corps on the 26th of December 1991 and that prior to him it would
14 have been Colonel Vukovic who was the commanding officer of that unit?
15 General Vukovic.
16 A. I don't exactly when General Mladic was appointed to the
17 9th Corps. You do make a reference to General Vukovic, and I did know a
18 General Vukovic who had assumed command of the 5th Corps in Banja Luka in
19 succession to General Uzelac. But when General Mladic took over command
20 of the 9th Corps, I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you. Sir, at paragraph 58 of your statement --
22 MR. IVETIC: And we can -- we can leave this -- we can move this
23 document. I do not need to use it any further. I do not wish to seek it
24 through this witness.
25 Q. At paragraph 58 of your statement you talk with the withdrawal of
1 the referendum monitors and you talk about going through some barricades
2 on the way to the airport in a JNA-led convoy. Am I correct that this
3 was -- the approximately the 2nd of March?
4 A. Yes, that's correct, yes.
5 Q. Your statement talks only of intimidation from militant Serbs at
6 the barricades. Weren't there also SDA barricades manned by armed
7 Bosnian Muslims that you had to pass through as well?
8 A. Not on that occasion, no.
9 Q. Do you remember the name of the JNA colonel that you liaised with
10 in regards to that convoy and was it perhaps Colonel -- Lieutenant
11 Colonel Slobodan Dimitrijevic?
12 A. Correct.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we can have 1D00121 in e-court. And my focus is
14 on the first page in both languages.
15 Q. Sir, what we will be shown in a moment is a report dated the 2nd
16 of March, 1992. And it is made by the command of the 2nd Military
17 District of the JNA. It's not apparent on the first page but later when
18 we get to the second page I think you will see the sign by
19 Major General Aksentijevic and references at both Lieutenant
20 Slobodan Dimitrijevic and Franjo Patacko [phoen] of the JNA assisted
21 militarisation of the task. But looking on the first page, this is a
22 report about an escort of monitors and it recites that preparations began
23 before the Holiday Inn at 1800 hours to evacuate the referendum
24 observers, and the third bullet point identifies a JNA passenger car, a
25 EC car with you and Mr. Kogan, and two JNA buses. Does this comport with
1 your recollection of the convoy that you are talking about in
2 paragraph 58 of your statement?
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. If we can go to the fifth and sixth
5 paragraphs of this report and now I quote:
6 "At the very first barricade in the neighbourhood of Pofalici, we
7 encountered serious problems. Misunderstanding and mistrust from people
8 on the barricades. This was the case on all seven barricades on the road
9 to the airport, including three men by SDA, Party of Democratic Action,
10 members and three MUP, Ministry of Interior, check-points. The general
11 conclusion was that we went through the SDA barricades more easily
12 because of the presence of MUP representatives and Mr. Habib, while the
13 decisive arguments on the barricades held by Serbian civilians were the
14 authority of Admiral Brovet and the GS General Staff, whose order we
15 referred to, and lengthy persuasion to which it was stressed, that these
16 were eminent European and international officials."
17 Sir, does this report by Major-General Aksentijevic refresh your
18 recollection as to whether in fact you had to pass through three
19 barricades manned by Bosnian Muslim SDA members on the 2nd of March on
20 the way to the airport?
21 A. No, this report would not -- I would not agree with this report.
22 I had no knowledge that there were any SDA or MUP check-points. In fact,
23 I recalled that Mr. Habib was stopped at the first check-point and
24 ordered out of the convoy because I know it was Bosnian Serbs, and they
25 didn't particularly like him because he was an advisor to the Ministry of
1 the Interior. So Mr. Habib did not accompany us all the way to the
2 airport at all. He was told -- he was ordered off the convoy and he was
3 ordered out.
4 Q. Colonel, if I can -- if I could perhaps focus your answer.
5 Am I correct that Mr. Habib was not aloud into the airport and he
6 removed at the last check-point before the airport?
7 A. I -- my understanding was he -- he was removed earlier than that,
8 but that could be open to debate because I can't remember exactly which
9 but certainly he didn't get to the airport. He was removed.
10 Q. We agree on that point. Okay. Fair enough.
11 If -- in light of the witness's answers, then I don't think I can
12 admit this document through him so I will move onto another point.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed. Thank you so much.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. In paragraph 75 through 76 of your statement, sir, you talk about
16 the negotiations for resolving the issue of the Sarajevo television
17 building, and this is a topic that you have testified about in other
18 trials; in the Karadzic case, for instance. In your statement, you focus
19 on this being related to a division of assets. Is that -- am I
20 accurately reflecting what is in the statement at these two paragraphs?
21 A. When I refer to "assets," in relation to the demand of the
22 Bosnian Serbs, the assets were the structure of the building, parts of
23 the building, not necessarily what was agreed in the -- in the
24 cease-fire. During negotiations for the cease-fire, it was agreed that
25 the Bosnian Serbs would be allowed more access to television time.
1 However, when I went to the television station on the day in question,
2 the Bosnian Serbs said no, what was agreed is that we would be given the
3 assets of the station. In other words, we give them so many parts, the
4 building would get television, cars, reporters, and studios, et cetera.
5 That was not the understanding of the cease-fire agreement and therefore
6 the talks didn't lead anywhere. So when I mention "assets," I'm talking
7 about physical assets, yes.
8 Q. And when we are talking about more air time for the Bosnian
9 Serbs, would that entail having a channel that would be available to them
10 to present whatever programming that they wish to present?
11 A. Well, I don't know that it would be a channel but it certainly
12 would be more time for them to broadcast what they wished. I don't know
13 whether that would have been required a channel or not, but ...
14 Q. Fair enough.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. With respect to what I'm looking at now, sir, am I correct that
17 your understanding of the Muslim position as communicated to you was that
18 they were happy with the status quo and did not want any changes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I would like to show you a letter. It's number 1D0014 in
21 e-court. It is dated the 23rd of March, 1992 signed.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Not in e-court, Your Honours.
23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
25 Your Honours, I'm told that one hour has passed from when we
1 started. I apologise for not bringing that to the attention --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, I was going to draw your attention to it at
3 11.00 sharp. Indeed, you are right. Is this a convenient time?
4 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you can sort out 1D00114 in the meantime.
6 MR. LUKIC: That would be great, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Doyle, we've been an hour inside. We're going to take a
9 break for 20 minutes. Come back at 20 past 11.00, please.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please stand down.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 20 past 11.00.
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we continue, Mr. Ivetic --
18 Mr. Lukic, when you announced Mr. Mladic's apology, we were in
19 private session, and you said he's apologising to everybody, and I think
20 it's in the interests of both him and justice that it be in open session.
21 Then we'll order then that that private session, that confidential part
22 of the testimony be uplifted.
23 Madam Registrar, thank you so much.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be called in.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, 1D00114.
3 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours, and I see that we have
4 it up on the system. I thank the Madam Registrar for correcting my
5 misstatement of the number.
6 Q. Colonel, we have before us a letter signed by Harun Imamovic from
7 the SDA city board for Sarajevo, and the part that I would like to focus
8 on for purposes of my discussion with you is in the middle in both the
9 B/C/S and English and begins:
10 "The Sarajevo SDA city board believes that every division of
11 Sarajevo TV into ethnic channels is out of the question, as it would not
12 suit the interests of the Muslim people.
13 "In addition, we would like to say that in order to protect our
14 ethnic interests, it is imperative that the general manager of the RTV be
15 a Muslim as well as the editor-in-chief of the RTV.
16 "We deem this to be the minimum beneath which no talks should be
18 Now, sir, would you agree with me that the content of this letter
19 would indicate that the Muslim population were looking for an
20 unreasonable demand as to the TV negotiations?
21 A. Yes, I would agree.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Now if we can move to a related topic from
23 paragraph 77 of your statement. You mentioned the shelling of the TV
25 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to call up a document in e-court,
1 1D00175, and I do not intend to introduce the one that we have on the
2 screen, and again that's 1D00175.
3 Colonel the document that's coming up now, and shortly we'll have
4 the translation, is a report from the 17th Partisan Brigade of the JNA.
5 It is dated 23 April of 1992 and details the situation as reported by
6 this source in the Sarajevo TV building, and you can feel free to read
7 the English translation to yourself. I will summarise that it alleges
8 the presence of armed paramilitary formations in that building, and I
9 know that you already were questioned about this in the Karadzic case on
10 the 26th of May 2010 at transcript page 2718 and that you -- that your
11 testimony there was that you did not know about any alleged presence of
12 paramilitaries in that building.
13 I --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton.
15 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. I think if my friend wants to a put a
18 portion of his testimony from Karadzic to him, he should actually put the
19 actual excerpt. I don't think that's a fair statement of everything the
20 witness had to say on the topic.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: I'd be happy to do that. I was trying to save time,
23 Your Honours. It's in e-court. If we could perhaps leave the English
24 translation of this document on the screen and, on the other side, if we
25 could pull up 1D0018, page 29. That is the transcript reference that I
1 was hoping to -- to discuss with the witness. 1D00118. Did I do it
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yep.
4 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours.
5 Q. And while we're waiting for that, sir, if I was -- my finishing
6 remark was going to be that I have a different set of questions for you,
7 but let's, first of all, see this section. It's the 29th page in
9 And I believe it's at line 21, where you indicated that you have
10 no knowledge -- that you had no knowledge of this -- of this report or of
11 the alleges contained therein?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. And my question was going to be, just to be
14 clear, is there only one TV building; that is to say, is this -- would --
15 would the TV building that is being referenced here have to be the TV
16 building that is in paragraph 77 of your statement?
17 A. Yes, I would -- yes, I would say so, yes.
18 Q. Fair enough. With respect to -- with respect to the allegation
19 of there being paramilitaries in a location, would you agree with me that
20 to arrive at the truth one would have to look into and investigate those
21 claims and find out the full picture before assessing fault for any
22 military strike on a target?
23 A. Sorry, could you re-direct that? I didn't fully understand the
25 Q. Would you agree with me that before we assess fault for the
1 shelling of the TV building, someone would have to review and investigate
2 whether, in fact, there were armed paramilitaries operating in the
3 building that would affect the legitimacy of the decision to strike the
5 A. Yes, I would. However, it would probably, in my view, depend on
6 what the reason behind it is. Is it actually to attack such units if
7 they did exist or was it still a target to actually attack the television
8 station itself? I don't know.
9 Q. I agree with you, and I agree that we don't know at this stage
10 that since no investigation was performed of that. But, sir, the
11 question I have for you, as someone who has been trained by the
12 Irish Defence Forces, and in the recitation of your background you talked
13 about 30 years experience in the military, and you had several positions
14 after the Irish Defence Forces: Would you agree with me that if a
15 civilian building is being used by a hostile force to open fire upon
16 another combatant, that that combatant is entitled to shoot back onto
17 that location to neutralise the threat? Hypothetical, of course, but ...
18 A. Well, I understand it's hypothetical, and I think I would
19 probably need to have more information before I could give an answer on
20 that, but basically I think I understand what you're getting at.
21 On the one hand, you know, a -- a television station can be under
22 certain circumstances a military target. It depends on what's coming out
23 of the television station. On the other, it's a part of an institution
24 of a state. So I think it probably would depend on the circumstances.
25 Q. Fair enough.
1 A. So I think that's the best I can do for you on that one.
2 Q. That's okay, sir -- Colonel. That's exactly where I stand as
4 With respect to any military strikes, based upon your 30 years
5 experience, would you agree with me that all the care and technology in
6 the world cannot completely eliminate the prospect of civilian damage or
7 casualties that result from an otherwise legitimate military target being
9 A. I think I'm getting a little bit confused. Could you -- could
10 you just repeat that for me, please, until I give it some consideration.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: It looks like we're now in a legal discourse.
14 Don't we talk of collateral damage?
15 MR. IVETIC: Yes, we do with this.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And isn't that --
17 MR. IVETIC: That's what I'm asking, Your Honours. Yes, that's
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
20 Mr. Doyle.
21 THE WITNESS: One of the great focuses or one of the great
22 problems we have in the military is the whole issue of collateral damage,
23 and of course in recent years and in recent conflicts it's become more
24 and more to the fore. We only have to think of the collateral damage
25 done to a premises in Belgrade. However, that's why I find it just
1 difficult to -- to side one way or the other on an issue of this nature.
2 But I would agree that an order for an attack on a premises, one would
3 want to be fairly sure that you're going about it the right way and it's
4 for a legitimate reason and that it is a legitimate target.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Thank you. And if we can have just one more document that I
7 believe you -- I believe this one you haven't seen before.
8 MR. IVETIC: And this one -- the 17th Partisan Brigade document I
9 will not -- also not be seeking to tender as an exhibit at this time. If
10 we can call up, Madam Registrar, 1D00169.
11 Q. And, Colonel, as we wait for that to come up, I can preface my
12 remarks by saying that we will see that is a 11 May 1992 report of the
13 Ilidza police station, and if we go to the fourth page in the Serbian and
14 the second page in the English, I think we will see this selection that
15 also talks about the Sarajevo -- the RTV building. And Colonel, if I can
16 direct your attention to the part that begins, and I quote:
17 "We have acquired information that in the RTV Sarajevo building,
18 a large number of Green Berets are present daily; that is, there are 50
19 to 70 of them there at all times. They are led by Sejo Saric, who had
20 worked in the security services of this building previously. The
21 requisitor known as Boca is also one of the leaders and is also very
22 extreme. A group of the reserve police and Territorial Defence (TO) are
23 commanded by a certain Saban Sljem with the help of Bajrovic and some
24 Kasim. Among them are snipers Zeljko Jandric and Zoran Milovanovic,
25 specialists of the former MUP. They are armed with automatic weapons,
1 machine-guns, portable launchers, and bazookas. They carry a large
2 quantity of ammunition. During the attack on Svrakino Selo, 30 to 40
3 members of the Green Berets had arrived on the property of the TV
4 station. Portable launchers and bazookas are being placed on top of the
5 TV station by which they could fire at ranges up to 500 metres. We have
6 been told that their combat morale is not at a high level, which is
7 particularly visible prior to the bombing of the building."
8 And now, Colonel, first of all, the standard question: Am I
9 correct that this information was not known to you or available to you
10 prior to ...
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Bolton.
12 MR. IVETIC: Okay, I'll just ...
13 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Again, there is no relevance to whether
14 the information was known to him unless the information was true. So he
15 should be asking any knowledge that there were, in fact, Green Berets in
16 the building not -- not presupposing again that the information is true.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, what is wrong with the question was the
18 information -- the information was not available to you? That's the
19 question put to the witness.
20 MS. BOLTON: I think the question as worded -- it's ambiguous
21 whether he's asking -- if he answers "yes," it would be ambiguous on the
22 record as to whether he's saying -- sorry, if he answers "no," it would
23 be ambiguous on the record as to whether he's saying, No the information
24 was never conveyed to me, or he is not given an opportunity to say, Well,
25 in fact -- to disagree with the information that's being put to him if
1 that's the case.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether the -- whether counsel
3 intends to put the case to him, whether he disagrees with it. All he
4 wants to know is did you have this information at the time. And the
5 question [sic] is yes I did or no I did not. I don't think there can be
6 any ambiguity about that.
7 MS. BOLTON: Well, no, the answer -- the question as worded, Your
8 Honour, was was this information -- sorry. I think "conveyed" I think it
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question is -- let's read it as it was put:
11 "And now Colonel, first of all, the standard question, am I
12 correct that this information was not known to you or available to you
13 prior to ..."
14 And then you objected. Yes, it was not available to me; no, you
15 are wrong, it was available to me.
16 MS. BOLTON: All right. I -- I think the question is ambiguous
17 in my mind, Your Honour, but clearly you disagree and there is no point
18 in belabouring the point. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 Put the question, sir, exactly as it was put.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Sir, am I correct that this information was not available to you?
23 A. No, it was not available to me.
24 Q. And without getting into whether the matters asserted are
25 accurate and true or not, because neither you nor I can do that at this
1 point, I want to ask you: Would you agree with me that to reach an
2 accurate picture of the truth, these allegations of a building being used
3 to set up offensive weapons would have to be fully looked into before
4 assessing the legitimacy of a strike on a building?
5 A. Yes, they would. But I should state here that I was warned in
6 advance by Serbs that they were going to bomb the station if they did not
7 close it down. They did not say to me, We will bomb this station if this
8 or that. That was the specific. And I brought that personally to the
9 attention of Mr. Karadzic who assured me that it would not take place.
10 Q. And that's all in your statement in the paragraph that I
11 referenced --
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. -- at the beginning. Thank you, sir.
14 MR. IVETIC: I will also not be seeking to tender this,
15 Your Honour, so we can remove that from e-court for the time being.
16 Q. And sir, I wish to move onto another topic. In paragraph 79 of
17 your statement, you do talk about a battle that took place just outside
18 of your hotel which you eye-witnessed. Am I correct, first, that the --
19 that your hotel is near the area where the TV building we have been
20 talking about is located?
21 A. Well, it's not beside it. It would be some kilometres away.
22 Q. And this combat that you saw, I -- I -- strike that. I shouldn't
23 say combat. You refer to it as a battle. This battle that you saw on
24 the 22nd of April, 1992, am I correct that the armed Bosnian Muslim
25 forces were the antagonists; that is to say, the attacking or offensive
2 A. My assessment was that it was, yes.
3 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And one other clarification as
4 to this incident. In your statement, you mention that 13 persons were
5 killed. Do you recall if these were civilians or combatants?
6 A. Well, the information was given to me by a reporter from the BBC
7 who was on the ground. I saw some bodies. The ones that I saw were in
8 uniform -- sorry. They were in paramilitary uniform. They were in the
9 uniform that was worn by police. I understood them to be Serb police.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we go to one other item from your
11 statement. In paragraph 87, you mention a letter that, in fact, is
12 Annex 9 to your statement but which we here in the courtroom now know as
13 P94, I believe. 65 ter number 10980 and I believe it entered into court
14 as P94.
15 This is a letter written by the mayor of Sarajevo, and while we
16 wait for that to come up on the screen I would ask you: Do you recall
17 this letter?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And very briefly on this, and I will rest assured as I have done
20 all yesterday and today, I will give you a fair opportunity to get
21 everything that you've said about this letter in there. Can I first just
22 remind that you testified in the Milosevic case that in your opinion this
23 letter was probably overstated. Is that an accurate --
24 [Overlapping speakers].
25 A. Yes, it was my assessment that there were some exaggerations in
1 the letter.
2 Q. And to be fair to you, sir, I wish to also read the remainder of
3 what you said about this letter so that everything is out there, and this
4 is from the Milosevic -- the Slobodan Milosevic case, transcript page
5 25354, lines 14 to 21, and it's -- I believe you will be able to follow
6 along. It's brief.
7 "What I would say about that is that in lots of reports that I
8 got from all sides there was the general tendency to exaggerate and this,
9 in my view, was one of those. I do not in any way dispute the fact that
10 the situation was getting pretty desperate and that there was an urgent
11 need for corridors to be opened to get humanitarian aid into the city,
12 but from the experience I had in the former Yugoslavia over the 12
13 months, I would say that all the sides, from time to time, in my opinion,
14 seemed to exaggerate the situation."
15 And, sir, does that now complete your recollection on your stance
16 as to this letter as [Overlapping speakers].
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if I can move onto another topic. I want
19 to ask you about something that struck me in regards to the efforts of
20 the negotiators in Lisbon. And here I'm talking about May 1992.
21 Am I correct that you personally there Lisbon several days during
22 this time-period, and in particular when the 27 May bread queue massacre
24 A. I was, yes.
25 Q. And now, I believe you were only questioned about that in the
1 Slobodan Milosevic case. At least that's the only place where I found a
2 reference to this item. Otherwise, I would have called up reports. But
3 on the 26th of August --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone.
7 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, is it on now?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's on now.
9 MS. BOLTON: I don't know that the Slobodan Milosevic transcript
10 was included on my friend's document list.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: If I can refresh counsel's recollection, it's
13 included on their exhibit list and my list says I may use anything on the
14 Prosecution's exhibit list. It's listed under prior testimony,
15 Prosecutor versus Slobodan Milosevic, case number IT-02-54-T, 26 and 27
16 August 2003.
17 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.
19 Yes, Mr. Ivetic. You may continue.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Sir, I will read to you again, as I have, the entirety of what
22 you are recorded as having said there, and then I'll ask the questions
23 thereafter and you will be free to clarify, add to, or correct anything.
24 Again, this is the 26th of August 2003 at transcript page 25299,
25 line 19, going to transcript page 25300, line 10. And I begin with
1 your -- with -- with -- with what was there.
2 "A short time after that Radovan Karadzic was very anxious to
3 come in and talk with us, and we had a discussion about meeting with him.
4 So when he came in, immediately -- he immediately inferred that the
5 Bosnian Serbs were not responsible for that mortar. I recall
6 Ambassador Cutileiro saying to him, asking him how was he -- how did he
7 know that this attack could not be attributed to the Bosnian Serbs
8 because it was impossible to have contact with Sarajevo from Lisbon.
9 However, what was attempted by the conference, as a result of this, was
10 that Dr. Karadzic was informed that whether the Serbs were to blame or
11 not, they, the Serbs, were actually responsible for it or not, they
12 probably were going to be blamed, and, therefore, it would be the
13 interest of them to make a gesture to our conference. We had discussed
14 this previously to Dr. Karadzic coming in, and I suggested - I think it
15 was I; I may not be sure on that - but one of us suggested that maybe we
16 exploit this to be able to get an agreement on the airport. So after
17 some considerable time, Dr. Karadzic agreed that in certain circumstances
18 he would be willing to hand over control of Sarajevo airport to the
19 United Nations."
20 Colonel, have I accurately recited --
21 A. Yes, you have.
22 Q. Thank you. And the incident in question is the bread queue
23 explosion at Vasa Miskina street that is commonly referred to as the
24 first of the Markale attacks?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And am I correct that a forensic investigation later determined
2 that the Bosnian Muslim forces were likely responsible for this incident?
3 A. I have no knowledge of that. That's my understanding, that the
4 United Nations crater analysis was different.
5 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. I thought there was an issue with the
9 Q. Well, if you don't allow it, then I will move on. But the
10 question I have for you is is this --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Bolton is on her feet.
12 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise.
13 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]
14 MR. IVETIC: Microphone.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone. It's on.
16 MS. BOLTON: My notes actually do indicate that there may an
17 error on the transcript on that line as well, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which line?
19 MS. BOLTON: The answer:
20 "I have no knowledge of that. That's my understanding, that the
21 United Nations crater analysis was different."
22 I think the witness had said something close to that, but no, my
23 information was that the UN crater analysis -- sorry, was different. And
24 there's something missing.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I would happy to let the witness --
1 MS. BOLTON: Yes.
2 MR. IVETIC: -- re-answer that. I think that's the safest way.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't know personally what the definitive
4 decision on that was. I do know that the United Nations carried out a
5 crater analysis. But not being a member of the United Nations, I don't
6 know what that was. So I can't say for definite who fired that mortar.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Fair enough, sir.
9 Would this example from Lisbon, would it -- from this, can we --
10 can we conclude that in a desire to fulfil the mission objectives,
11 international negotiators from the European Community sometimes had to
12 operate in this manner to try to assess blame without knowing the full
13 answer yet to try and get some concessions from various parties in the
15 A. No, I would not agree with that.
16 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
17 And then I have one other area also related to the airport.
18 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to 1D00170.
19 Q. And, Colonel, when this comes up, if I can direct your attention
20 to the last paragraph of this document, and I will wait for it to come
22 And, again, sir, is this a document that you recognise as one
23 that you authored?
24 A. Well, I -- I haven't read it yet, but it bears my signature all
1 Q. If you want, we can have it returned to the first page. Would
2 that be --
3 A. That might assist.
4 MR. IVETIC: Madam Registrar, if we could have the first page,
6 Q. And, sir, when you've have had an opportunity to review, if you
7 could just confirm whether in fact this is a document that you recall
8 having been authored by you.
9 A. I can see where the document has my signature and authorisation,
10 but I actually don't -- I don't recall that -- that -- that actual
12 Could I -- could I just quickly see page 2?
13 Q. Definitely, sir.
14 MR. IVETIC: Madam Registrar, could we show the witness the
15 second page.
16 Q. And, sir, I'll give you some time to review that.
17 A. It bears my signature and I would have to say that I did sign it.
18 But I'm -- I'm a little bit -- I'm a little bit curious as to why it
19 refers to coming from Belgrade on the first page. I'm -- I'm just not
20 sure on that.
21 Q. Nor am I, sir. In any event, do you -- do you recognise the
22 subject matter of the -- [Overlapping speakers].
23 A. Generally speaking, yes I do. Yes.
24 Q. That's fair enough. I'm only interested in one aspect of this
25 and I will put it to you and you're free to comment on it, if it is or is
1 not something you recall authoring.
2 If I can look to the last paragraph of this document, the last --
3 actually, I'm not seeing the part that I'm looking for. One moment,
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you looking for the last paragraph on the
6 second page or on the first page?
7 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, the last -- the last -- it's supposed to
8 be the last paragraph on the last page, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: On the last page? Well, there is the last
10 paragraph: Kind regards.
11 MR. IVETIC: And that's not what I have written here. One
12 moment, Your Honours.
13 Q. Let me see if the witness recalls this text before we spend more
14 time looking for it.
15 Sir, I have listed here that in this document there is a
16 paragraph that begins as follows:
17 "There is a strong body of opinion to suggest" --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's first page.
19 MR. IVETIC: First page. I apologise then. The last
20 paragraph of the first page. That's it. Thank you, Judge Moloto.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome [Microphone not activated].
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Sir, here we can read along now:
24 "There is a strong body of opinion to suggest that the Muslims
25 would be happy if the airport was not made operational as this would
1 decrease the chances of they (the Muslims) achieving the objective of
2 getting some sort of military intervention. There seems to be a greater
3 determination on the part of the Serbs to open the airport."
4 Now, do you recall this specific portion of this correspondence
5 that was -- that is before you?
6 A. I -- I understand what the reason behind that paragraph would
7 have been, yes, my understanding. Because, at that time, the -- the
8 Muslims or the SDA were very -- at the Presidency, specifically the
9 president was very anxious to try and get military intervention in -- and
10 an indication that the situation might be somehow returning to normal
11 would be opening up the airport. So politically speaking this would have
12 been something that they would have preferred not to have happened. That
13 would have been my judgement and that's -- I would accept that's why I
14 would have put it down there.
15 Q. Thank you, sir, and that's how I understood it and I'm glad for
16 the added explanation.
17 If I can just ask a follow-up on that. Would you agree with me
18 that this overarching desire to try to seek military intervention from
19 the outside, i.e., from the United States or NATO, that this was
20 exhibited by the SDA leadership not only in regards to the airport but
21 with regards to other negotiations that you were a party to or have
22 knowledge of during the time-period that you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. I can't actually say that it was. But I do know that politically
24 the SDA wanted to have military intervention as a means of bringing the
25 war to a conclusion. That was my estimate.
1 Q. Thank you, Your Honour -- thank you, Colonel. I apologise.
2 MR. IVETIC: And one moment. Let me just check one thing,
3 Your Honours. I think I'm done with this witness.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. I'm sorry, Colonel, I do have one follow-up question. It's with
7 regard to the uniforms of the dead -- of the dead casualties that you saw
8 from the gun battle outside of your hotel in April of 1992. How -- could
9 you -- could you illuminate for us how it is that you were able to
10 determine the uniforms in question to identify them as being paramilitary
11 uniforms worn by the police?
12 A. Well, the -- when that, I suppose battle, or outbreak of fighting
13 occurred, when I looked out the window, the first thing I saw was a Serb
14 half-track coloured blue and white which was the colours, and the
15 uniforms were also blue, and they were the uniforms that were being worn
16 by the police at that stage. The fact that it was a Serb area, the fact
17 that Muslims had already had been moved out of the area was a clear
18 indication to me as to what was happening. And, therefore, it was my
19 assumption that the people who were defending the area were Serbs.
20 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
21 Colonel, I thank you for your time and your patience. I have no
22 further questions for you and I thank you for the answers that you have
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I pass the witness.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.
1 Madam Bolton.
2 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have a brief
3 re-examination of the witness. May I just have a moment to organise my
5 May I begin, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may, ma'am.
7 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
8 Re-examination by Ms. Bolton:
9 Can I have on the screen, please, 65 ter 10943.
10 Q. This is a document you were asked about yesterday by my friend.
11 In particular, you were asked about a note that appears at the end of the
12 document, which is -- will be the next page, where you express some
13 concerns about the legality of the referendum and, in particular, you
14 indicated there was some concerns about the legality of the assembly
15 being reconvened after it was closed by the assembly president and also
16 the authority of the president of the assembly to conclude the session
17 without a majority in the first place.
18 MS. BOLTON: I'm wondering if we could please go back to the
19 first page of this document.
20 Q. Under item 10, there's an indication, it says -- before the list
21 there's an indication most of the speakers during the debate were from
22 the SDS party, all of whom opposed the holding of a referendum with
23 various arguments of which the following were the main points.
24 And then point 10 is:
25 "Recommend that SDA/HDZ go ahead without SDS as they (SDS)
1 already had a plebescite on November 9th/10th."
2 And my question is: What are they referring "go ahead" without
3 the SDS?
4 A. Go ahead with the referendum.
5 Q. Now you told us yesterday that it was the position of the Bosnian
6 Serbs that the requirement for the referendum required that it be done in
7 order to have a legitimate vote on the referendum that required that
8 there be a consensus amongst all three ethnic groups and not just a
9 simple parliamentary majority is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you told us yesterday that after they provided that
12 information to you that you went and spoke to some judges at the supreme
13 court of Bosnia; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And was that in an informal manner or was this a formal court
16 case that you brought?
17 A. No, this was an initiative on my part.
18 Q. And to the best of your --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was an initiative on your part, Mr. Doyle, but
20 was it a formal or an informal initiative?
21 THE WITNESS: It followed a request I made. I was trying to
22 clarify this whole issue, so I asked if I could meet some of the more
23 legally qualified people of the state, and I was told, yes, this will
24 happen, and I was told where to go at what time and I met them.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The short answer is it was an informal --
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would have been. I beg your pardon,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, sir.
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, sir, did anyone from the SDS
6 or anyone associated with the Bosnian Serb people ever initiate an action
7 in the Bosnian supreme court to get a formal ruling from the court as to
8 the legality or illegality of that vote?
9 A. I think I can answer that best by explaining that when arrived
10 for that meeting, the deputy minister of justice, who was a Serb, asked
11 me what it was I wanted to address with these judges. And when I
12 mentioned I was trying to get an official legal interpretation of this
13 whole issue, and he said that's not open for discussion. So I waited
14 until he left, and then I had the discussion that I wanted. And what I
15 was told by one of the judges is, Mr. Doyle, you're looking for something
16 that is impossible to define, because we judges could from different
17 ethnic backgrounds, so what I will tell you, for example, as a member, as
18 a judge who is a Muslim will be different to what you will be told by a
19 judge who is a Serb.
20 So I left that meeting rather frustrated because I felt if I
21 couldn't get a definitive answer by the highest legal powers in the
22 state, if they couldn't themselves agree as to what was and what wasn't
23 constitutional or legal, then it was going to be very difficult to get a
24 definitive answer. So I recall that and that's why I put that in there.
25 Q. And your answer was just slightly different from my question
1 which was --
2 A. I'm sorry.
3 Q. Were you aware of whether there was ever any court proceeding
4 actually initiated by the SDS to get an actual ruling from the court, a
5 formal ruling?
6 A. Not -- not to my knowledge.
7 Q. If we could go to the second page of this document again, please.
8 And to the bottom of the page under: "Comments." There is an indication
9 under comment 1 that you remarked that the presence of the SDS at that
10 session was for cosmetic purposes. What you did you mean by that?
11 A. The impression that I got at the time was that the SDS members
12 were going to object regardless of what came up. Once it appears to me
13 that they had decided in advance that they will not vote anything towards
14 a referendum, and if they stick with that line, going on the basis of
15 consensus, then no decision could be made.
16 MS. BOLTON: That ends my questions on this document, Your
17 Honours, and I note that the witness has been asked extensively about it
18 in cross-examination and now by myself in re-examination, and I think it
19 should be tendered as an exhibit.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's admitted into evidence. May it please be
21 given an exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10943 becomes Exhibit P100,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
25 Yes, Madam Bolton.
1 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. At page 1560 of the transcript yesterday, Defence counsel
3 suggested to you that the only person you spoke to in the Bosnian
4 Presidency who expressed view -- the view that -- only -- that -- sorry.
5 If the referendum was successful that the Bosnian Serbs wouldn't be happy
6 but they'd come to accept it was President Izetbegovic. And I'm
7 wondering if you could refer to paragraph 54 of your statement where you
8 indicate that -- you were asked to approach the various party leaders and
9 that you spoke with President Izetbegovic, Vice-President Ganic, Foreign
10 Minister Silajdzic, and Radovan Karadzic.
11 And then you say:
12 "The members of the Bosnian Presidency all said the same thing.
13 They said they believed the Bosnian Serbs would not be happy with this
14 recognition but they would come around to accept it with time."
15 Does that refresh your memory as to whether it was just
16 President Izetbegovic who expressed that view?
17 A. Yes. Yes, I should explain here that the person who spoke to me
18 personally about it was President Izetbegovic, but at the time he did it
19 I was at a meeting in which -- which was also attended by
20 Haris Silajdzic, who's the foreign minister, and Ejup Ganic. So it was
21 actually the president who said the words of the opinion of the SDA. I
22 apologise if there was any confusion about that.
23 MS. BOLTON: May I have ID002148, please.
24 I understand it may come up under the number 1D00173.
25 And may I have page -- sorry.
1 Q. First you're looking at the first page, and you recognise this as
2 the witness statement Defence counsel referred to yesterday as being from
3 Mr. Halilovic. Sorry, do you remember being asked about this yesterday,
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 MS. BOLTON: And if we could go to page 26 in e-court, please.
7 When -- and if we could have the top of the page, please, the witness
8 statement portion.
9 Q. When you were being asked questions yesterday by Defence counsel,
10 he referred to this statement as the sworn statement of
11 General Sefer Halilovic, and I'd ask you to read the top portion of this
12 document under "Witness Statement," and then I will have a question for
13 you. Just read it to yourself.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Do you see any reference to the witness being administered an
16 oath before he provided this statement?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. And the witness is advised, however, that he may be assisted by
19 an attorney, if he so desires?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he is cautioned that:
22 "There's an investigation in progress into events in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina during which period of time he held command
24 responsibility within the Bosnian army and that the investigation may
25 subsequently bring out facts which might involve my own responsibility."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were you -- or are you aware of whether General Halilovic was
3 in fact ever indicted or tried by the ICTY?
4 A. I have no knowledge, no.
5 Q. If we could go to page 28 in this document in e-court, please.
6 There's a reference at the very first paragraph.
7 If we could go to the top of the page, please. Thank you.
8 To a meeting of 2nd December 1991. And you were asked ...
9 MS. BOLTON: Court's indulgence.
10 And then if we could scroll to the bottom of this same page,
12 Q. Another segment that was put you to was the very last
13 paragraph here which reads: "It was obvious that the war was
14 unavoidable." And it talks about their efforts to try to secure weapons
15 quickly at that time.
16 Do you have any personal knowledge of what efforts were being
17 made by the Bosnians to secure weapons at that time?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. It was suggested to you in questions yesterday that the Muslims
20 were buying weapons on the black market and that this was being done with
21 money being obtained from the Middle East. Do you have any knowledge as
22 to whether or not that was true?
23 A. No, I have no knowledge of that.
24 Q. Or whether they expended millions of dollars on such equipment?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And whether or not President Izetbegovic personally authorised
2 that work?
3 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
4 Q. And do you have any idea as to when those -- sorry, I withdraw
5 that question.
6 You were asked --
7 MS. BOLTON: I'm done with this document, thank you.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before the document leaves I would like -- can we
9 scroll up, please.
10 I would like to take particular note of the second paragraph from
11 the top and ask for your comment if you have any, Mr. Doyle, particularly
12 the sentence that says: "It," the national Defence committee, which was
13 the basis for the formation of the Patriotic League, "It consisted of an
14 alliance of all the Bosnian patriotic forces regardless of cultural,
15 ethnic, or religious origins." Do you have any comment to make on that
16 in the light of questions put to you yesterday about the ethnicity of the
17 membership of the league?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, it seems to be -- if we're talking about it
19 being under the control of the SDA, or Muslims, the sentence saying: "It
20 consisted of an allegiance of all Bosnian patriotic forces regardless of
21 cultural, ethnic, or religious origins," that seems to be -- to be a
22 contradiction in terms.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 The document may get off.
25 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. You were asked some questions today about the fact that that the
2 barracks in Sarajevo -- or at least one barracks in Sarajevo was
3 surrounded on May 2nd, 1992. You recall that line of questioning?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Do you have any information or knowledge as to what the purpose
6 was of surrounding the barracks?
7 A. I -- I don't have any detailed knowledge as to why it occurred,
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bolton, how much longer are you going to be?
10 MS. BOLTON: I think five minutes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
12 MS. BOLTON:
13 Q. You were asked today about a report from the area of -- I want to
14 pronounce it Neum, N-e-u-m, about Croatian forces on Bosnian soil. Other
15 than in that area, did you have any other reports of Croatian forces on
16 Bosnian soil?
17 A. No, all of the forces were confined to western Herzegovina.
18 Q. And in terms of -- you were asked about public proclamations by
19 the European Community condemning the presence of Croatian troops on the
20 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and you said you weren't aware of any.
21 Were you aware of whether the United Nations Security Council ever issued
22 any statements or resolutions in regards to the matter?
23 A. I'm not aware, no.
24 Q. You told us -- in response to some questions today, my friend
25 suggested -- had some questions about your conversation with
1 General Ninkovic when he relayed the message that you wouldn't be allowed
2 by General Mladic to the area of the 9th Corps. If I could refer you to
3 paragraph 37 of your statement, there's an indication there that you had
4 a meeting with General Ninkovic, and you -- I take it, at the 10th Corps
5 in Bihac on the 17th of January, 1992.
6 Do you recall whether the information about General Mladic not
7 allowing access was conveyed at that meeting or another meeting?
8 A. It was my understanding it was at that meeting.
9 Q. You were asked some questions today about paramilitary forces in
10 the TV building in Sarajevo. Did you have occasion to actually be inside
11 the TV building in Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes, I was frequently there.
13 Q. And when you were in the building, did you ever see signs of any
14 military installations?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. Paramilitary forces?
17 A. No, not to my knowledge. I did not see any armed forces in the
18 television building.
19 Q. Any weapons?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And where is the TV building relative to the PTT building?
22 A. It's -- it's pretty close. I can't remember exactly, but
23 certainly within half a kilometre. Could be even closer. I can't now
24 remember. But it was during the period that I used to visit the
25 United Nations who were based in the PTT building, so it wasn't very
1 hard -- it wasn't that far from the television station.
2 Q. When you were having the talks about the JNA withdrawal from the
3 barracks in May 1992, where were they held?
4 A. They were held in the PTT building.
5 Q. Okay. And did you ever hear any outgoing fire from -- or see any
6 outgoing fire from the TV building --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- during those talks?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Those are all my questions. I thank you very much, sir.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Bolton.
12 Mr. Doyle, thank you so much for coming to the Tribunal to
13 testify. We've now come to the conclusion of your testimony. You may
14 now stand down. You are released. And may you travel well back home.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
19 Yes, Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I realise we are approaching the time
21 for the break. I do have important information with respect to the next
22 witness, that's witness's ability to proceed this afternoon. If we have
23 a few moments, I can update the Chamber.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Please do.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just prior to the start of this
1 session, a representative of the victim and witnesses services asked to
2 speak with me and informed me that a chronic medical condition of RM115
3 had been exacerbated. Over the course of this session, we've now been
4 informed that it has become acute and the witness has been returned to
5 the hotel room.
6 I stepped out of the chamber around 11.30 to see if I could
7 organise or advance the witness -- one of the witnesses from next week,
8 and that is proving impossible. So it seems that there are no witnesses
9 that we can call to the stand this afternoon.
10 I apologise for that, but it is an unforeseen event.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Quite understandable. Thank you so much for that
13 In that event, can we stay a little longer so that we do some
14 housekeeping matters before we break for the day.
15 First of all, I just wanted to ask the Prosecution, I -- yes,
16 Madam Bolton, asking you, with respect to P99 MFI, have you been able to
17 get a B/C/S translation? It was MFI'd yesterday because of the
18 translation issue.
19 MS. BOLTON: I'm advised that it is not yet available but it
20 should be available later today.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Can you remember on Monday then, to make
22 sure that -- or ask whoever from you comes to court --
23 MS. BOLTON: Ms. Stewart will remember on Monday.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Stewart.
25 The next point, there is an oral decision that the Chamber would
1 like to render. Actually, it's not a decision. These are reasons for a
2 decision and a decision. I'm going to correct myself one more time.
3 They're reasons for a decision and a decision. Okay.
4 Reasons for decision on Prosecution motion for leave to file an
5 amended Rule 65 ter summary for Witness RM147 and decision on the
6 amendments to the Rule 65 ter summaries of Witnesses RM039 and RM078.
7 The Chamber will now deliver the reason for its decisions
8 granting the Prosecution motion for leave to file an amended Rule 65 ter
9 summary for Witness RM147 and denying the Defence request to postpone
10 hearing of this witness's testimony which was informally communicated to
11 the parties on 20 July 2012.
12 It will also deliver its decision with regard to the Rule 65 ter
13 summaries for Witnesses RM039 and RM078. In this respect, the Chamber
14 grants the Prosecution's request for leave to reply with regard to
15 Witness RM078 filed on the 22nd August 2012.
16 On the 11th of June, 2012, the Prosecution requested leave to
17 amend its Rule 65 ter witness summary for this witness so as to include
18 additional information arising from a proofing session held on the 2nd
19 and 3rd of June, 2012 concerning primarily the alleged shelling of
20 Sarajevo on the 28th and 29th May 1992, as described in
21 Scheduled Incident G1 of the indictment. The new information was set out
22 in a consolidated witness statement signed by the witness on 3 June and
23 disclosed to the Defence on the 8th of June, 2012.
24 The Prosecution submitted that the sought amendment to the
25 witness's Rule 65 ter summary would be consistent with the interests of
1 justice and would cause no prejudice to the accused, Mr. Mladic.
2 On the 25th of June, 2012, the Defence requested that the motion
3 be denied as the proposed amendments sought to change material aspects of
4 the witness's testimony and caused, as such, undue prejudice to the
5 Defence. In the alternative, requested that the testimony of
6 Witness RM147 be delayed by 90 days so as to allow adequate time for the
7 Defence to prepare for his testimony.
8 The Chamber emphasises that the purpose of Rule 65 ter witness
9 summaries is to notify the opposing party and the Chamber of the content
10 of evidence expected to be elicited from a witness. Such notice should
11 be given sufficiently in advance of a witness's testimony so as to enable
12 the opposing party to prepare for the witness's cross-examination. The
13 amendment sought for Witness RM147's Rule 65 ter summary concerned
14 information which was included in the consolidated witness statement that
15 was disclosed to the Defence on the 8th of June, 2012 and in the
16 Prosecution's 11th of June, 2012 motion. As such, the Chamber considered
17 that the Defence had been on notice of the Prosecution's intention to
18 lead the proposed additional evidence sufficiently in advance of the
19 witness's testimony which is scheduled for the week of the 27th of
20 August, 2012.
21 The Defence did not sufficiently demonstrate that the witness's
22 testimony would need to be delayed due to the additional information to
23 be elicited.
24 For similar reasons, the Chamber allows the requested amendments
25 to the Rule 65 ter summaries concerning Witnesses RM039 and RM078. The
1 requests, which specify the information sought to be added to the
2 relevance summaries, place the Defence sufficiently on notice of the
3 evidence the Prosecution intends to elicit from these witnesses.
4 As for the Defence submission that parts of the transcript of a
5 past testimony of Witness RM078 have not been disclosed by the
6 Prosecution, the Chamber notes that it appears that the relevant pages of
7 the transcript have been disclosed and, in any event, are publicly
8 available on the Tribunal's web site.
9 The Chamber would like to provide the parties with general
10 guidance with regard to amendments to the Rule 65 ter witness summaries.
11 It considers that, in principle, the parties do not need to seek leave to
12 amend these summaries. It is sufficient to provide the opposing party
13 and the Chamber with adequate notice of such amendments as soon as
14 possible, and, in any event, sufficiently in advance of the witness's
15 testimony. Should the opposing party consider that eliciting the new
16 information would cause undue prejudice, it may request the calling party
17 to reschedule the testimony of the witness concerned or seek any other
18 appropriate relief from the Chamber.
19 This concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision concerning
20 RM147 and its oral decision on the amendments to the Rule 65 ter
21 summaries of Witnesses RM039 and RM078.
22 Are there any housekeeping matter that any of the parties has?
23 Mr. Groome.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just -- the only housekeeping matter
1 that the Prosecution would seek to raise is -- or just ask the Chamber,
2 since RM147 is scheduled to testify next week, if we could have some
3 information when we might expect some decisions. There are a few pending
4 applications with respect to that witness.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sitting where I am, I can say as soon as possible.
6 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which is not very helpful, I understand.
8 MR. GROOME: I appreciate that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Thank you.
10 Mr. Lukic, anything?
11 MR. LUKIC: The Defence has nothing to raise at this point.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic. Well, in that
13 case ...
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your microphone is on.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We were, in any case, going to tell you what we
17 were saying.
18 Is the Prosecution in a position to tell the Chamber and the
19 Defence whether the witness who was not able to testify today will be
20 able to testify on Monday, or -- and/or if not, whether you are able to
21 have an alternative witness.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, RM147 was a witness that has some
23 restrictions on their availability, and that is the witness that we have
24 scheduled for Monday. So what we would propose to do is proceed on
25 Monday with RM147. The witness who became ill today, RM115, if that
1 witness returns to good health, then we would call that witness
2 immediately after that. And then proceed with Mr. Jordan after that.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Do I therefore understand
4 that you want these decisions before Monday? These pending decisions
5 with respect to RM147.
6 MR. GROOME: Or at least informal communication so we can prepare
7 the witness and can finalize our preparations, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll do our best.
9 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 In that event, we stand adjourned to Monday morning, 9.00 -- 9.30
12 in Courtroom I. Am I right? Thank you so much.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.36 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 27th day of August,
16 2012, at 9.30 a.m.