1 Monday, 27 August 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Unless there are any preliminaries, is the Prosecution ready to
12 call its next witness, which, we do understand, is Witness RM115.
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution is. And may I
14 take this opportunity to introduce the Chamber to Rachel Hochhauser.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome into the courtroom, Ms. Hochhauser.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Good morning, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how to pronounce it, Hochhauser or
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Either will do, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 If you are ready, then could the witness be escorted into the
22 courtroom. Protective measures are there. Face distortion, voice
23 distortion, pseudonym Witness RM115. And may I remind the parties that
24 to the extent necessary to protect the identity of the witness, that they
25 should apply for closed session.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, as the witness is being brought
2 in, if I could just note that on Friday P99 was marked for identification
3 pending translation. It is has now been translated and is uploaded into
4 e-court, so we would ask that it be admitted.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against the admission of P99?
6 No objections.
7 P99 the document is admitted into evidence.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Witness RM115.
10 Good morning, Witness RM115. Can you hear me in a
11 language you understand?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require
14 that you make a solemn declaration, that you'll speak the truth, the
15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 Now, first of all, the screens will be up and I explain to you
17 that you testify under protective measures, which means we are not using
18 your name, your face will not be shown to the outside world, your voice,
19 your own voice, will not be heard by the outside world, and to the extent
20 the content of your testimony would be at risk to reveal your identity,
21 then the parties are instructed to ask for closed session.
22 Is that clear, Witness RM115?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, could I invite you to make a solemn
25 declaration. If you would prefer to remain seated, no problem, there's
1 no formal rule which requires you to stand.
2 Could you please make the solemn declaration that you'll speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The usher will
4 hand out the text to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, Witness RM115, do solemnly
6 declare that I shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
7 the truth. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
9 Mr. Groome.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just in an abundance of caution, I
11 know that there has been technological updates in this court, but
12 typically when witnesses have had voice distortion we've seen another
13 microphone on the podium. I do not see that now. I'm just inquiring
14 whether it's no longer necessary or has there been an omission.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think my microphone was switched off already
16 automatically a couple of times, but may I remind everyone: If the
17 witness speaks, please switch off your ...
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that a new technology allows for
20 using one microphone even when voice is in place.
21 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, this is just confirmed to me by the
24 Ms. Hochhauser, if you're ready, please proceed.
25 Witness RM115, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.
1 Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the Prosecution. Listen carefully to her
2 questions and please answer them.
3 Ms. Hochhauser.
4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 WITNESS: RM115
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
8 Q. Good morning, Witness.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. Can I please ask to begin with that the Court Usher show this
11 witness the pseudonym sheet which has been marked with 65 ter number
13 And, Witness, are you able to see what's on the monitor in front
14 of you?
15 A. I see this thing here. It's not in Bosnian. It's in English.
16 And then I see this other thing there, and that's my last name.
17 Q. Okay. Does -- does what is in front of you on the monitor, does
18 it list your name and your date of birth? Or, I'm sorry, I'm actually
19 looking at what is up on the monitor. Does it correctly list just your
21 A. There should be another diacritic above the letter C.
22 Q. And with that exception, does that correctly list your name, with
23 the exception of the missing diacritic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would ask that the pseudonym
2 sheet be tendered into evidence. Under seal.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28344 becomes Exhibit P101,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P101 is admitted under seal.
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.
9 Q. Witness, did you give a statement in 2008 and sign the English
10 version of that statement; do you recall that?
11 A. I signed it, but this gentleman said that I should sign this
12 proof that he had read it out to me in Bosnian.
13 Q. Okay. And in 2010, were you shown an actual Bosnian -- B/C/S
14 version of that same statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'd ask, please, if the usher could put 65 ter
17 number 28345 in the B/C/S version, please, on the monitor but not to be
18 broadcast outside of the courtroom. And it's a statement dated 4 of
19 November 2008.
20 Q. Okay. Do you recognise what's on the monitor in front of you?
21 A. I recognise my signature. I see ...
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And to be clear, can we actually see page 5 in
23 e-court, the last page of this exhibit, shown to the witness.
24 Q. And do you recognise your signature on that page?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. And, ma'am, the B/C/S version of your 2008 statement was signed
2 by you in -- on April 22nd of 2010; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, at that time, in 2010, when you were shown the Bosnian --
5 the B/C/S version of your statement, did you also the chance to make
6 corrections to the statement?
7 A. Well, there were some corrections, but right now I do not see
8 them displayed.
9 Q. Okay. Now, I'd ask the usher, please, to place on the monitor -
10 also not to be broadcast outside of the courtroom - 65 ter 28346.
11 And, ma'am, do you recognise what is on the monitor in front of
12 you? Do you see your signature on that addendum?
13 A. I see my signature here. That is my signature. But I do not see
14 the text itself. The print is a bit small.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Is there a way to enlarge the print, please, for
16 the witness?
17 Q. Are you able now to see it?
18 A. I can read it now.
19 Q. Now, did you have the opportunity -- well, withdraw.
20 Let me first ask. Do you recognise the text as well now?
21 A. Yes. But this thing here, Cicin Han -- well, yes. It's right
22 now. Before it was different, but now it's right. Yes, that is the
23 correction made.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I do not receive translation at this moment, but ...
25 Yes, yes. Now I see there was the -- the plug was not -- was
1 moved slightly.
2 I read from the transcript what the witness said.
3 Please proceed.
4 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
5 Q. Witness, did you have the opportunity last Wednesday to look for
6 the first time at a B/C/S translation of this addendum before you that's
7 on the monitor now? To look at the B/C/S version for the first time.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And are there any corrections that you would make to that
10 addendum, having now read it in B/C/S?
11 A. I haven't read it yet. I do apologise. Just give me another
13 Q. Take as much time as you need.
14 A. It says here "pucajte," but he actually said "tucite Velusice,"
15 fired Velusici.
16 Q. And so the -- I'm sorry, can you repeat, please. What should the
17 addendum in front of you say accurately so that it accurately reflects
18 what you said?
19 A. This is what it should say in the fourth paragraph: Mladic said
20 "tucite Velusice." That is what he said. Over here what is written is
21 "pucajte." It should be "tucite."
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: If the interpreters could give us the --
23 THE INTERPRETER: T-u-c-i-t-e, and the interpretation is the one
24 provided, fired at Velusice.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
1 Q. Ma'am, are you make a distinction between the two words used in
2 the B/C/S language in that sentence that's in quotations "at Velusice,"
3 the word that comes before, whether it's "fire" or "hit"?
4 A. Yes, there is a difference. "Pucajte" is one thing, you can
5 shoot and fire, but "tucite" to my mind means kill everyone. That's how
6 I see it.
7 Q. And just to be clear, what is it that the statement -- which word
8 should it say in order to accurately reflect your testimony, your
10 A. Instead of "pucajte" it should say "tucite."
11 Q. So -- except for the change that you've just told the Chamber
12 that you would make to that addendum that you've just explained, do both
13 of these documents that you've seen now today, 65 ter 28345 and 28346, do
14 those two statements together contain an accurate account of your
16 A. Yes, except for that one word. It's different in relation to
17 what I had said.
18 Q. Now, if you were asked the same questions today that you were
19 asked when you gave those statements, would you give the same answers?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And now that you've taken the solemn declaration before this
22 Chamber, do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of these statements?
23 A. Yes. But that one word that was changed. Well, as for the rest,
24 it's all right and I have nothing to add to that. It's all the way I
25 said it the first time.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution
2 tenders 65 ter 28345 and 28346, respectively the 4 November 2008
3 statement and its addendum dated 22 April 2010, along with the associated
4 exhibits into evidence. And in light of the protective measures ordered
5 by this Chamber, we would ask that they be placed under seal.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I am looking at the Defence. No objections.
7 Madam Registrar, do we have a full list of the associated
8 exhibits or are there just the two?
9 THE REGISTRAR: I can assign numbers for two documents used now
10 and later file a memo with the associated exhibits.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's the most practical thing. How many
12 numbers should be reserved? Are there two? Is this 49965 and 9965.1?
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour, it is just the two -- the two
14 exhibits. That's correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Just the two exhibits. Perhaps we assign numbers to
16 all of them first.
17 The 4th of November 2008 statement, although signed on the
18 22nd of April, 2010, would receive number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: So document 28345 will receive -- becomes
20 Exhibit P102, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
22 The next one is the addendum to the statement dated the 22nd of
23 April, 2010, and signed on that same day.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28346 becomes Exhibit P103,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal. Then we have 65 ter number
2 9965, a medical record.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P104, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal. Then 65 ter 9965.1, newspaper
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, I'm sorry. I apologise, Your Honour, if I
7 may. But the next one the people -- the Prosecution is offering is
9 JUDGE ORIE: 28057 --
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- is recorded in partial transcript of media
12 broadcast. Is that, Ms. Hochhauser, what you're referring to?
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour. On the exhibit list provided
14 it's the two non-shaded exhibits that are actually being offered.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that -- 28057, Madam Registrar, receives?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P105, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P105. Any need to have it under seal.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, 28057 should not be under seal, but P104
19 should be.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think P104. Now I'm a bit ...
21 Yes, P104 is admitted into evidence under seal. P105 is admitted
22 into evidence. Please proceed.
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 If we may go into private session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
9 Q. Witness, on the night of 28th May, 1992, into the morning hours
10 of 29th May, 1992, were you in the hospital in Sarajevo in the Marin Dvor
12 A. Yes. That was the former military hospital, and I was at work
14 Q. When you say it's the former military hospital, of which
16 A. Of the Army of the former Yugoslavia. It was a military
17 hospital. I worked in that hospital as a civilian.
18 Q. Now, in your -- actually, let me ask. On the -- at the time
19 time-period that we're talking in May of 1992, was there -- was there any
20 military use or military personnel in that hospital?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you explain that?
23 A. There were military personnel in the hospital. Then they
24 requested to leave and go to the other side, whoever wanted to leave,
25 left. And whoever didn't want to leave remained in the hospital.
1 However, when they left the hospital, they subsequently shelled the
2 hospital and targeted everyone else mercilessly because they had remained
3 in the hospital.
4 Q. And, ma'am, those -- those people that you're describing as
5 having stayed, they were members -- they remained although they were
6 members of which military?
7 A. The people who stayed, stayed there to work. The soldiers
8 weren't there, they left. They remained there to stay and work in the
9 hospital as hospital staff, medical staff.
10 Q. So are you -- are you speaking of doctors and nurses and other --
11 other people doing medical work in the hospital?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So in May of 1992, were there any armed soldiers or ammunition
14 stores or anything like that? Any active military use of the hospital
15 that you were aware of.
16 A. I know nothing about that. All I know is that we treated the
17 wounded, the treatment was provided, but as for weapons and military
18 purpose, I know nothing about that. There were porters, of course, who
19 were just standing outside because every hospital had such porters. But
20 I know nothing about these operations that you have mentioned.
21 Q. And the -- the employees of the hospital who remained to continue
22 their medical work, were they both Serb and -- were they both Bosnian
23 Serb and other ethnicities?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Now, in your 2008 statement, at paragraph 4, you describe hearing
1 Mr. Mladic on the radio the night before you were injured.
2 Can you tell the Chamber whether there is a reason that this
3 radio broadcast stood out in your mind?
4 A. Well, that night was a fatal one for me, and I will never forget
5 it, for as long as I am alive.
6 Q. And how do you know that the voice on the radio was Mr. Mladic?
7 A. Well, we had previously seen him on television. He was in
8 command, and he had a very recognisable voice. Even a small child could
9 recognise his voice because that man really issued orders for shelling
10 and so on and so forth. There was no doubt about that.
11 Q. Now, have you had the opportunity to hear again the -- the whole
12 radio broadcast that you describe in your statement?
13 A. Yes. Later, it was shown on television, and when we have the
14 anniversary at the hospital it's also broadcast. It was a terrible day
15 for us victims and for the hospital. This is something that cannot be
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would now ask Ms. Stewart to play just two
18 short segments of what's been marked now as P105, and she will be playing
19 it in sanction. So that is the introduction from 7 minutes, 30 seconds
20 to 8 minutes, 58 seconds, and then intercept 11 from 17.15 to 18.17. The
21 accompanying transcript should be visible on the screen while it plays.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 [Technical difficulty]
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I don't know if anyone else is hearing anything?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear anything.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We have obtained a recording from
6 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Territorial Defence Staff of an
7 order for attack on Sarajevo from General Ratko Mladic and
8 Colonel Mirko Vukasinovic. You will hear, viewers and listeners, because
9 our news program will be rebroadcast later by Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina,
10 how targets in Sarajevo, Bascarsija, Pofalici, Velesici, Marin Dvor,
11 Didzikovac, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency, and vital
12 facilities in our city are selected. All types of weapons are being used
13 to fire. 82 and 122-millimetre mortar shells, 155-millimetre gun shells
14 and rockets. Officers are given orders in code, and Muslims -- and
15 Muslim names such as Fadil, Zijo, and Mustafa are usually used. The
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina Territorial Defence Staff has discovered that
17 Mustafa is in fact Veljko Stojanovic, a Colonel of Lukavica, who shells
18 the Aerodrom estate, the airport estate, and
19 Dobrinja. And Zijo is Lieutenant-Colonel Ivan Milosev, the commander of
20 the Vrace battery, and his assistant, Dragan Petkovic. These are names
21 that shall be remembered by today's inhabitants of Sarajevo and it's
22 future generations.
23 "Just a second. Okay."
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would ask that when intercept, which is
25 coming next, is actually played, that the interpreters not interpret it
1 so that we can hear the voices of the actual speakers. And the
2 transcript should be still running with it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The first one is to be played without
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. And that's the -- that is intercept 11,
6 at 17.15 to 18.17.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We will first listen to that.
8 Is there any agreement between the parties whether the transcript
9 and the translation, as it appears on our screens, accurately reflects
10 what was said? Is there any dispute about this?
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I'm not aware of a dispute.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No dispute.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No dispute about the accuracy of the text of the
14 transcript and the translation of it. Thank you for that.
15 Now, the problem is that the speaker who says no dispute is not
16 identified on the transcript.
17 Could you again confirm.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel
19 Miodrag Stojanovic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have a complete record of the agreement
21 between the parties in this respect. And intercept 11 may be played.
22 [Intercept played]
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
24 Q. Witness --
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: Just a moment please.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
4 respect, I've been informed that the first couple of questions weren't
5 heard by my client.
6 Could the first few interventions, sentences of this intercept be
7 played again.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we play the whole of intercept 11
10 Mr. Mladic, be attentive. It will start soon.
11 [Intercept played]
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Now, Witness, you've told us that you've heard the entire radio
15 broadcast containing many more intercepts than the one that was just --
16 the small excerpt that was just played for you. But the one that we've
17 just heard, is that what -- is that what you specifically describe in
18 paragraph 4, when you talk about hearing him talk about Velesici? And
19 excuse my mispronunciation.
20 A. Yes. Fire on Velesici.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, may we
22 go into private session, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 1659-1661 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone
14 not activated] We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I hear that someone apologises because of problems.
16 But I don't know. Are we -- we are now back into open session.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue, could you give us an
20 indication as to how much time you would need for your cross-examination.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
22 We believe our cross-examination won't take up more than about 40
23 minutes. But I do believe that the witness was addressing us so I will
24 let her say what she has to say.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Witness RM115, we are about to start with the cross-examination,
2 but perhaps it would be better to take a break first. If there's
3 anything you would like to say before we take a break, please do.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like that break,
5 Your Honours, because I really need to go and some other things.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take a break of 20 minutes and
7 we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00. But the witness first be escorted
8 out of the -- no, that's okay. But the witness first to leave the
9 courtroom before we adjourn.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break now.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM115, you'll now be cross-examined by
17 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll
18 find him to your left.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Once again, good morning,
21 Your Honour. Thank you.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Ma'am, before I proceed in private session, I
24 want to express, on behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, to express
25 our sincere regret for what has happened to you and for the permanent
1 consequences you are suffering. But please understand that in doing our
2 job we have to ask you a few questions. It is it our obligation. Thank
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could, Your Honours, I
5 would like to go into private session for the first couple of questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Page 1665 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Ma'am, you told us that you had been given a room to live in, and
18 it was on the second floor of the hospital; do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Will you tell us, would it be correct to say that the windows of
21 your room faced north?
22 A. I never made such an analysis. I don't know what side the rooms
23 were facing. They were closed. And we put up mattresses against the
25 Q. Would I be right in saying that the windows were facing Vogosca
1 and Kosevo, and those parts of Sarajevo?
2 A. I am not that kind of expert that you could question about what
3 side the windows were facing. I was doing my job, and I never dealt with
4 that sort of thing. There are other institutions that would be better
5 placed to answer that.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I now ask the Registrar,
7 the legal officer, to call up 65 ter 28316, page 24, and this is already
8 an exhibit; P3. It is that collection of photographs and maps,
9 Your Honours. Maps of Sarajevo...
10 Q. I will ask the witness - when the exhibit is displayed - to try
11 to recognise these buildings. Can you see them on the screen?
12 A. I see them, but I'm not so good with sketches.
13 Q. In the central part, can you recognise this yellow building?
14 A. I can't, because I always walked in the street. I never
15 photographed anything from above. I cannot explain this.
16 Q. I will ask you about something closer. Can you recognise the
17 buildings of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Executive Council,
18 and Marin Dvor?
19 A. If I were walking through Marin Dvor, I could recognise it, but I
20 have never seen an aerial photograph. Nothing seen from above. I
22 Q. Then I will finish with this question and this photograph.
23 In the right upper corner of this photograph, can you see a
24 building, a white many-storeys building. And would that be the hospital
25 you were talking about?
1 A. I don't know with these pictures taken from above. I told you.
2 I'm not good with these sketches taken from above. I never photographed
4 Q. Thank you. Then I will move on and take a different approach.
5 You have no understanding of artillery weapons used in such combat, in
6 war operations, do you?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: Okay. Okay.
10 Q. [Interpretation] To this day, you do not know from which position
11 that artillery shell could have come from, the one that hit the hospital.
12 A. No, I'm not that kind of expert that could be questioned about
13 that. I could say nothing about that.
14 Q. Do you remember any time before you were wounded in the night
15 between the 28th and 29th of May when an artillery unit of the Army of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina was observed in the vicinity of the hospital?
17 A. No. We were hiding in basements. I didn't see the outside
18 world. I had no contact. I can't say anything about that.
19 Q. And after you were injured, you spent all your time in Sarajevo,
20 in the building of the hospital, until November 1993?
1 A. I don't know. Various people showed up and finally they told me
2 I had to leave. In 1997, when the reintegration happened, I went back
3 into my own apartment in Grbavica where everything was destroyed,
4 damaged. It was a miserable sight. I was never interested in taking
5 other people's property. I was only forced to go into that apartment.
6 Q. Is it the case that in 1995, too, you returned to that apartment?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. What about your husband? Was he at any time engaged by the BH
9 army as a soldier?
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if we could go into private session
14 for one second.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would just --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Wait until we are in private session,
18 Ms. Hochhauser.
19 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Now I shall move onto another topic because we're in public
9 session. Madam, can you remember when you heard this alleged
10 conversation of General Mladic's before the wounding?
11 A. Well, I cannot remember. Nobody was doing any counting, but it
12 was heard, before and afterwards.
13 Q. Can you tell us tentatively at least how many days before your
14 wounding you heard this conversation on Radio BH?
15 A. I cannot give you any accurate information. I wasn't doing any
16 counting. I didn't know what would happen. We were seeking shelter from
17 shells, detonations, we were hiding. It wouldn't cross your mind to do
18 any counting.
19 Q. Before that, before listening to this intercept, you did not have
20 an opportunity of meeting General Mladic personally?
21 A. Well, we saw him on television. Even small children knew him.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, in the context of the testimony of
23 this witness, the last question really is a surprising and, at first
24 sight, a very superfluous one.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You did not know in any way where General Mladic could have been
3 at the moment when that conversation was taped.
4 A. Well, he said from Hresa. So everybody knew who held Hresa, and
5 they were targeting different parts of town. Those parts of town where
6 they thought the population was non-Serb. And there were different
7 ethnicities all over town. Whoever didn't want to get their hands dirty
8 stayed, and others left.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we, once
10 again, look at the transcript of the conversation that we heard a moment
11 ago, 65 ter 20815.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think a conversation that was admitted
13 meanwhile is P105; isn't it, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 Do you have any page on your mind -- yes.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Madam, can you please tell the Court in your own words where, in
17 relation to the hospital, the area of Hresa is?
18 A. The area of Hresa is opposite the hospital, on a hill that was
19 held by the Serb side.
20 Q. Could you tell the Court where, in relation to the hospital, the
21 area called Pofalici is?
22 A. Again, I'm telling you, I never made any sketches. I never had
23 an opportunity of counting which side is which, where they were. It
24 never crossed my mind. It's a well known thing where Pofalici is,
25 Velesici. He said Velusici.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, has any attempt been made to agree
2 with the Prosecution on where Pofalici is, which seems to be a very
3 clearly identified geographical area. I mean, why bother the witness
4 with apparently is not what she is best at. That is, geography. I mean,
5 is there any dispute about where Pofalici is?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think
7 there is any dispute between us and the Prosecution where Pofalici is.
8 That is a fact that cannot be in dispute. It is the way it is. The aim
9 of these questions was, before I was in a position to receive this answer
10 from the witness, to see what her orientation is in time and space, to
11 show to the Trial Chamber what the content of this conversation is and
12 where the positions are as referred to in the conversation. However, I'm
13 dealing with this very briefly. I'm going to move onto the -- to a
14 different question now --
15 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the end of the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What the Chamber would expect you to do is
18 under those circumstances to clearly identify where it is. We had a
19 Court binder, which you opposed to. I take it that somewhere we'll find
20 exactly there where Pofalici is. Agree with the Prosecution on the
21 matter and do not waste time on it in court. Please proceed.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Madam, I'm going to ask you in the following way.
24 Will you agree with me that the area of Velesici is to the
25 north-west in relation to your hospital and that it is more than 1
1 kilometre, at least?
2 A. Believe me, I do not know about these things like north-west,
3 whatever. I came here because of my wounding. As for this geography,
4 I'd kindly ask you to spare me all of that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, apparently you have not understood
6 my comments. Where these areas are, you can still agree on that with the
7 Prosecution and inform the Chamber about it.
8 The witness has now told us several times that north, north-west,
9 south, et cetera, that's not -- why continue? Please proceed in a
10 meaningful way.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall
12 move on.
13 Could we now please take a look at document 65 ter 20828.
14 While we're waiting for this to appear in e-court, I would like
15 to say that this is a document that represents an alleged conversation --
16 alleged transcript of an alleged conversation between Ratko Mladic and a
17 person called Potpara and Baros.
18 Could we please take a look at page 2.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before you ask the witness any questions about this
20 document, Mr. Stojanovic, would you first establish whether there is any
21 reason to expect that the witness would have any personal knowledge about
22 the matters you are about to ask her. Because if not, you should move
23 on. If she has any specific knowledge about the matters you'd like to
24 put to her in relation to this document, then, of course, you may
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, precisely.
2 That is my task.
3 Q. Madam, can you read this text? And can I then ask you whether
4 you remember this recording; and did you hear this conversation on
5 Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina at any point in time?
6 A. Which recording?
7 Q. I would kindly ask you to look at the text in front of you.
8 That's a transcript of this intercepted conversation.
9 And when you read it, could you answer my question: Whether you
10 remember having heard this conversation at any point in time on
11 Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 A. This is not written in Bosnian. I cannot read it now.
13 Q. You should have the B/C/S version in front of you as well.
14 The reading of this text, does it jog your memory? Does it
15 remind you of having heard this on the radio?
16 A. Believe me, I didn't remember any of that. I didn't write it
17 down. Different things were being said.
18 What I remember is that I was wounded. We worked at work. We
19 did not have time to sit around. We had many things to do, so ...
20 Q. You said to us here in the courtroom --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before you continue, we've seen only
22 page 2. It was apparently suggested in your question that this was
23 broadcasted. Is that suggestion based on anything?
24 And, second, could you tell us at what time - apart from the
25 day - this conversation could be located?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to
2 our information and our investigation, this conversation took place on
3 the 29th of May, 1992, as is stated here, and it is in the morning hours.
4 This does correspond, in terms of time, to all the events that
5 the witness spoke about.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What -- morning hours extends to 12 hours, from
7 midnight until midday. Could you be more specific?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to
9 the information I have, this conversation took place at 10.55.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I don't think you have already answered my
11 first question, whether it was broadcasted.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to our information,
13 yes, Your Honour. And that is why my question was whether the witness
14 had heard this. If she hadn't heard it, then I shall proceed.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you -- if you carefully listen to
16 the testimony of this witness, it -- one could understand it as being
17 that she was wounded during the night hours, from the night of the 28th
18 of May until the 29th of May, and that she was in a coma. Now, is there
19 any reason to believe that she only came -- went into coma after 10.55 in
20 the morning, or are you asking the witness whether she was listening
21 radio while being in coma? I'm just inquiring into the line of
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due
24 respect, I am fully aware of the fact that that would have been
25 impossible then.
1 Several times today, this witness spoke about this intercepted
2 conversation, and she said that she heard it many times after the war.
3 So I don't think that the witness could have heard it on the 29th at
4 10.55. It is quite logical.
5 My question was: Whether at any point in time, afterwards, she
6 had the opportunity of familiarizing herself with this conversation. And
7 that is the only thing that I wish to ask her.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, your question should have been
9 more clear in that respect.
10 Second, Witness, having read at least the beginning of all this,
11 do you have any recollection of after the war or after you had left
12 hospital that you ever heard any such conversation?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was broadcast several times
14 in the media. And that will not be erased. That will remain in the
15 memory of all citizens.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now referring to the original portion that
17 was read to you about -- or are you talking about this part, that is, a
18 conversation between Mr. Mladic and Mr. Potpara. Is that what you heard
19 several times; or was it the other one; or both?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying for sure that the fire
21 at Velusici was uttered before my wounding a bit. I was wounded at night
22 at ten past 12.00, and I don't remember anything after that. But
23 afterwards it was broadcast and it will always be broadcast, what his
24 instructions were, and that's that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apart from that broadcast which you heard at
1 the time and you've heard again after the war, Mr. Stojanovic was asking
2 you about another conversation of which he showed you the text.
3 Do you have any recollection about that other conversation of
4 which you saw the text a minute ago and which was not about the attack?
5 Not the conversation which you heard before you were wounded but a
6 totally different conversation. Do you have any recollection that you
7 have heard this after the war?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we heard different
9 conversations. I cannot identify this precisely which conversation this
10 was. I mean, who could have followed all of that? Nobody was writing it
11 down. Also different statements were being given. I mean, I cannot say.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Monster.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 By your leave, I'm just going to try to put something from this
16 document. Page 4. Page 5 in B/C/S. I would just like to put a
17 paragraph to the witness, and if that does not jog her memory when it was
18 that she heard it, I am going to stop asking her about this intercept and
19 I'll use it some other time.
20 Q. So, madam, I would like to ask us that we take a look together.
21 We will get the B/C/S version as well.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4. 3363. And it says that
23 the alleged participants in this -- participant in this conversation,
24 Ratko Mladic, says, inter alia:
25 "Me, too. If they want peace, they have it. Last night I
1 ordered -- as soon as I arrived, there was a massive attack not only
2 against the units but also against you. This shooting, somehow I managed
3 to calm people down here, to get them under control, to stop them from
4 firing. This thing that they are doing now, they probably have some good
5 mimes or some good impressionists who can probably imitate our voices
6 successfully, mine, yours, everybody's."
7 Q. And I'm asking you now whether this part of the alleged
8 intercepted conversation can remind you of ever hearing it after the war,
9 after you returned to the country. Yes or no?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It was broadcast in the media as well, wasn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you, madam. And I'm not going to deal with this document
14 any longer.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this
17 intercept be admitted into evidence. It's a 65 ter document, 20828, and
18 I think it would be number 39, if I'm not mistaken.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: None.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, at the same time, the relevant part
22 of it has been read into the record. All the rest is left without any
23 attention, so the Chamber, before admitting these kind of documents,
24 wonders what the evidentiary purposes of it is. I mean, through this
25 witness. Perhaps it's something to be bar tabled or ...
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am certain
2 that certain documents can be tendered without using this witness. The
3 other matters in the intercept that are of importance and, therefore, if
4 the Chamber agrees I would suggest that this intercept be admitted.
5 Perhaps we could just have the relevant page of the intercept admitted
6 into evidence through this witness.
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I was just going to add to that
8 that while I don't have an objection to the entirety being admitted, I
9 would have an objection to just the -- the portion read to the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 208828 becomes Exhibit P39,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted --
16 THE REGISTRAR: D39.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D39 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Madam, with regard to May 1992, do you know that the Marsal Tito
20 barracks, which is in the vicinity of the hospital, was surrounded by
21 ABiH members at that point in time?
22 A. The former Marsal Tito barracks was completely destroyed by
23 Serbian units.
24 Q. In that case, my question is as follows. When did that happen?
25 A. Well, I didn't note the dates. People note down such things.
1 History will be written, but that wasn't something that I was responsible
2 for. We were at war. We were fighting simply to survive. We weren't in
3 a position to reach for our diaries and take pens or pencils and note
4 these things down. I do apologise, but these issues I'm not familiar
6 Q. I'll try and remind you once more, and this will be my question.
7 If I say to you that the Marsal Tito barracks, that men moved out in the
8 first week of June 1992 from the Marsal Tito barracks, would that remind
9 you of the fact that in May 1992 the barracks were surrounded?
10 A. Everyone left the barracks on a voluntarily basis. No --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting, but
13 at this point I was going to object. Again, the witness has said
14 repeatedly that she doesn't have knowledge of these things, and now she
15 is being reminded -- supposedly reminded of things that occurred while
16 she was in a coma in order to get an answer and so I would object.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the witness said that she doesn't
18 have any knowledge. "I do apologise," she said, "but these issues I'm
19 not familiar with." And you nevertheless continue to ask questions about
20 matters she says she is not familiar with. The witness is here to
21 testify about what she observed personally, not to be taught what, in
22 your view, may have been reality.
23 Please proceed. And I think you used, until now, 45 minutes.
24 How much time would you still need, Mr. Stojanovic?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have several
1 more questions. I need another five minutes. And with all due respect,
2 I would just like to remind you of the fact that this witness said
3 that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there's nothing needed to remind me
5 of at this very moment. If there's a real mistake made by me, you can
6 deal with it in the absence of the witness. You have your five minutes.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Your Honours, could we briefly move into private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Madam, I just have a few more questions that you can answer very
7 We are claiming that up until the point in time when you were
8 wounded, in the part of Sarajevo under the control of the ABiH, there
9 were numerous places you could see from where you were, and numerous
10 places where the ABiH was present and from where they used various
11 weapons to target the territory under the control of the Army of the
12 Republic of Serbia. Would you agree with that or not?
13 A. Mr. Stojanovic, we were in cellars. We had no access to the
14 windows and we couldn't observe these places. I know nothing about this.
15 It wasn't my responsibility.
16 Q. Thank you. We're also claiming, madam, that there was sniper
17 emplacements and machine-gun emplacements at the time you were where you
18 were before you were wounded, and from those emplacements part of
19 Sarajevo, under the control of the Army of the Republic of Serbia, were
20 fired on: The Bristal hotel was targeted, the Elektroprivreda building
21 was targeted, the Executive Council building, the pension fund building
22 was targeted, the Loras building was also targeted --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, and then you are going to ask the
24 witness whether she would agree with that. The witness has said she was
25 in cellars. She has no knowledge about all these kind of things. And
1 then you put one of the most complex and composite questions to the
2 witness one could even think of. Please, a clear and simple question.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Madam, were you in a position to see these buildings when you
5 were working in the building that you have already mentioned?
6 A. I have already told you that I wasn't in a position to see
7 anything. Well, we didn't go outside. We had no access to the streets.
8 So I do apologise, but I wouldn't go into those issues anymore. Thank
10 Q. Madam, thank you. I have no further questions for you, and I
11 apologise if I put any questions that may have upset you.
12 A. Not at all. That is your official right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, any need for re-examination?
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Just one question if I could, Your Honour, to
15 clarify something that was said on cross-examination.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
17 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
18 Q. Witness, at transcript page 16, line 23, around there, you
19 described being in the corridor listening to -- listening to the radio
20 programme and the intercepts, the conversations that were played with the
21 radio programme.
22 Can you tell the Chamber when, in relation to listening to that
23 programme, was it that you were injured?
24 A. Thank you. I was injured after that. It was the night between
25 the 28th and 29th at 12.10. That's when I was injured. I don't remember
1 anything else. I was in a coma for a long time and my situation was
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
6 May I take it that the question in re-examination has not
7 triggered the need for any further cross-examination. The Chamber also
8 has no questions to you. Therefore, Witness RM115, the Chamber would
9 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague, and especially in
10 your health condition. We understand that that is not easy for you. We
11 therefore thank you, and we wish you a safe return home again.
12 You are excused and may be escorted out of the courtroom.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to thank you for
14 allowing me to come here. It was difficult but the truth must be known.
15 That's all I would like to say. And I hope there will never be a war
16 again and that everyone can leave in peace and everyone can be free.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Although the blinds are down, we are officially
20 still in open session.
21 We take a break, and we resume at quarter past 12.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
25 I do understand that we'll hear his testimony in closed session.
1 MS. BOLTON: That's correct, Your Honour. If we could go into
2 closed session, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Bolton, we will. And could, as soon as
4 we're in closed session, the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 Meanwhile, I take the opportunity to urge the parties, and I'm
6 specifically addressing, at this moment, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, before the break, in relation to one of the
8 intercepts, I think it was the last one, you referred us to page 4 in the
9 English. Now, it turned out to be page 5. It happens now and then that
10 the e-court numbering is not fully congruent with the hard copy page
11 numbering. I don't know whether that explains it. But whenever you
12 refer to any page, it should always be that page in e-court.
13 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. Your Honours, while the witness is being
14 brought in, perhaps I could indicate the adjudicated facts that the
15 Prosecution will be relying on in relation to this witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. Although I think I have a list
17 of them. That's our own list. Then I would rather listen to your list,
18 Ms. Bolton.
19 MS. BOLTON: My list would be adjudicated facts -- I'm sorry, are
20 we in closed session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are in closed session, yes.
22 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. BOLTON: Nine --
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
1 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1687-1723 redacted. Closed session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 It appears that no one is watching from the public gallery.
2 Therefore, we adjourn until tomorrow, Tuesday, the 28th of
3 August, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.
4 We stand adjourned.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
7 August, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.