Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1726

 1                           Tuesday, 28 August 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I'm not aware of any preliminaries.  Therefore, in order to hear

11     the remainder of the testimony of the witness, I'd like to move into

12     closed session.

13                           [Closed session]

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 1727











11 Pages 1727-1756 redacted. Closed session.















Page 1757

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             May I take it that the Prosecution is ready to call its next

10     witness after the break?

11             MR. GROOME:  It is, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be mister?

13             MR. GROOME:  John Jordan.  And the witness will be led by

14     Mr. Adam Weber.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Weber, and there are no protective

16     measures of any kind?

17             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break, and we resume at ten minutes

19     past 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness,

23     Mr. Weber?

24             MR. WEBER:  Good morning.  Adam Weber on behalf of the

25     Prosecution.  Yes, we are.  At this time, the Prosecution seeks leave to

Page 1758

 1     present the evidence of John Jordan.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  May the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 3             On the Defence side, will it be you, Mr. Ivetic, who is going to

 4     cross-examine the witness later?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the Chamber was informed that from the

 9     list of associated exhibits you're going to use six.  Is that well

10     understood?

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, pursuant to Rule 92 ter, we're going to

12     be tendering the statement of the witness and then five associated

13     exhibits.  At that time, I will be using associated exhibits but during

14     the course of the examination.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Jordan, I take it.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence the Rules require that you

20     make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth,

21     and nothing but the truth.  I'd like to invite you to make that

22     declaration.

23             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

24     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  JOHN JORDAN

Page 1759

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Jordan.

 2             Mr. Jordan, you will first be examined by Mr. Weber.  You will

 3     find him on your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

 4             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And could I invite you also, Mr. Jordan, to make a

 7     short pause between question and answer.  Mr. Weber will show you how to

 8     make a pause between answer and question so that the interprets are able

 9     to follow you what you saying.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  Thank you.

11                           Examination by Mr. Weber:

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Mr. Jordan, could you please introduce yourself to the Trial

14     Chamber?

15        A.   My name is John Jordan.  I'm from Garnet Lake, New York.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Court Officer please display page 1 of

17     65 ter 28347.  It's a statement of Mr. Jordan signed on the 24th of

18     August, 2006.

19        Q.   Mr. Jordan, once the document is on the screen, if you could

20     please look at it and verify whether or not your signature appears at the

21     bottom of the page.

22        A.   Yes, I see the document, and that is my signature.

23        Q.   Did you review this statement prior to coming to court today?

24        A.   Yes, sir, I did.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the lower portions

Page 1760

 1     of page 9 in the English and page 10 in the B/C/S.  Sorry, it's actually

 2     the middle portion of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Directing your attention to paragraph 45, where you describe an

 4     incident involving two men in a building in Grbavica, are there any

 5     corrections you would like to make to this paragraph?

 6        A.   Yeah.  One point I remembered it was actually surrey.

 7        Q.   Do you have any additional clarifications or corrections to the

 8     statement?

 9        A.   No, sir.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the last page of

11     the statement in both languages.

12        Q.   Mr. Jordan, does your signature appear on this page?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   If you were asked questions similar to those that you were asked

15     during the taking of this statement, would you provide the same answers,

16     in substance?

17        A.   Yes, sir.

18        Q.   Now that you have take the solemn declaration in this case, do

19     you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders the 2006

22     statement uploaded under 65 ter 28347 into evidence as a public exhibit.

23     The Prosecution also tenders at this time five associated exhibits.  For

24     the record, they are 65 ter 10064, 14090, 14096, 14097, and 65 ter 14108,

25     all the associated exhibits are also being tendered as public exhibits.

Page 1761

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  On behalf of the Defence no objection to the

 3     introduction of the statement, and as I had indicated to Mr. Weber

 4     earlier today, no objection to these associated exhibits being introduced

 5     with the statement.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the statement, the 2006 statement

 7     would receive number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28347 becomes Exhibit P126,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             Then we go to the associated exhibits.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10064 becomes Exhibit P127,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14090 becomes Exhibit P128,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14096 becomes Exhibit P129,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14097 becomes Exhibit P130,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the number?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14097 becomes Exhibit P130.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P130 is admitted.

Page 1762

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  And document 14108 becomes Exhibit P131,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P131 is admitted into evidence.

 4             You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution seeks leave to present a public

 6     summary of the witness's evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please present that summary.

 8             MR. WEBER:  John Jordan was one of several international

 9     volunteer fire fighters in Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995.  In 1992, the

10     witness was a volunteer fire-fighter in the United States.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please slowdown for the transcription.

12             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             He saw a news footage about the war in Sarajevo and started an

14     organisation with his own funds to assist the local fire-fighters in

15     Bosnia.  This organisation was called Global Operation Fire Rescue

16     Services, known also by the acronym GOFRS.

17             Mr. Jordan arrived in Sarajevo in November 1992.  The witness

18     describes his observations and experiences in Sarajevo between

19     November 1992 and September/October 1995.  During this time, members of

20     GOFRS worked alongside local Serb and Muslim fire-fighters and responded

21     to fires on both sides of the confrontation lines.  The vast majority of

22     these fires were in the area controlled by the Bosnian government

23     authorities.

24             Mr. Jordan personally attended between 250 and 300 fires during

25     the war in Sarajevo and assisted at least 200 civilians, the vast

Page 1763

 1     majority of whom were injured as -- the vast majority of whom were

 2     injured as a result of shelling and sniping attacks from Bosnian Serb

 3     forces.  The witness observed that civilians were caught up in such

 4     attacks while going about their daily lives.  Mr. Jordan describes

 5     incidents that took place in 1993 through 1995.  The witness and members

 6     of his organisation came under attack on multiple occasions.

 7             Several of the fire-fighters from GOFRS were present and

 8     witnessed sniping incident F12.  Mr. Jordan was informed of the

 9     circumstances related to the death of the victim in this incident along

10     with the wounding of his mother.

11             In light of the Trial Chamber's rulings on adjudicated facts, the

12     Prosecution does not intend to lead evidence that has been covered

13     extensively by adjudicated facts 1930 to 1932, 2018, 2045, 2047, 2053,

14     and 2054, 2056, 2065, 2143, 2154, and 2159.

15             That completes the public summary of the witness.

16        Q.   Mr. Jordan, in paragraph 2 of your statement which is now P126,

17     you mention that you were part of the United States marine corps as a

18     scout sniper.  Could you please tell us what years you served as a

19     marine?

20        A.   1973, September, till August 1978.

21        Q.   The Prosecution is now going to ask you to watch a series of

22     video-clips from the DVD that you provided in 2006.

23             MR. WEBER:  Which, for the record, Your Honours, is referenced on

24     page 3, paragraph 12 of the statement.

25        Q.   Mr. Jordan, after each clip, I will ask some questions for you to

Page 1764

 1     assist us with what is depicted in the video?

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I will now ask Ms. Stewart to please

 3     play 65 ter 22481A.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "Barely a day goes by without some part of Sarajevo bursting into

 6     flames.  Morning and night, it doesn't matter when or where.  There have

 7     been 300 major fires in five months.  These are not accidents.  This is

 8     arson on a massive scale, and there's a terrifying pattern to this

 9     pyromania.  First Serbian shells fired from the surrounding hills set a

10     building ablaze, then the gunners wait until the firemen arrive before

11     launching another barrage.  Anti-aircraft fire pounds into this towering

12     inferno.  The idea is keep the burnings blazing to burn as much of the

13     city as possible.  The firemen are not just fighting fires, they are

14     always under fire.

15             "An ambulance riddled with bullet-holes.  In Sarajevo, even the

16     men who try to save are targets.  The fire brigade is having to rely on

17     inexperienced young men to cope with an almost impossible task.  The

18     firemen are poorly equipped and undermanned.  In the last six months they

19     fought 300 major fires.  In peacetime, a serious fire would happen around

20     every five years.  But Sarajevo burns every day.  The men have no

21     breathing apparatus, no protective clothing.  They wear only their thin

22     uniforms.  The threat of snipers often prevents them from using

23     mechanical lifts, but their long hoses have all worn out through constant

24     use.  Now hoses will only reach up to five stories of an apartment block.

25     Anything above can't be --"

Page 1765

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Jordan, there appears to be two separate news broadcasts in

 3     the clip that we just watched.  Are these broadcasts similar to the ones

 4     you saw in 1992 before you went to Sarajevo?

 5        A.   They are, in fact, the ones I saw before I went to Sarajevo.

 6        Q.   Do you know the approximate date of each of these media reports?

 7        A.   I believe they were the summer of 1992.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Since you are speaking too quickly, especially also

 9     because what is heard on the video goes very quickly, you should -- after

10     having shown the video, you should wait with your first question until

11     the translation has been finished.

12             So please take care, because both B/C/S and French booth had

13     difficulties in following the speed of speech already before you started,

14     and you didn't make it any better.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, of course.  Thank you for the reminder.

16     I will do so.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Perhaps you -- in your first

18     question I think has been recorded approximate date of each of these

19     media reports, summer 1992.

20             Resume from there, please.

21             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Could you please tell us who these media reports were from?

23        A.   The first report was provided to us by Christiane Amanpour of

24     CNN.  The second one, which depicts the ambulance, is from Tony Bartley

25     who I believe was with ABC news at the time.

Page 1766

 1        Q.   With respect to that ambulance that we saw with a number of holes

 2     in it, do you recognise this ambulance?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Whose ambulance is it?

 5        A.   That ambulance was on the BiH side.  It was often at the

 6     State Hospital.

 7        Q.   In this video-clip there are individuals wearing yellow helmets

 8     who were attempting to extinguish firings.  Who are these fire-fighters?

 9        A.   They would be firemen from the Sarajevo fire department, BiH

10     side.  They were wearing their station uniforms, not fire-fighting

11     uniforms.

12             MR. WEBER:  At this time I will ask Ms. Stewart to please play

13     another video-clip.  It is 65 ter 22481C.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "On a night when half the city seems to be burning, they find out

16     first hand what it's like to battle fires while dodging Serbian bullets.

17     The gun-fire was coming from behind us and the fire was in front of us,

18     so we were trying to hide and it really wasn't working out.

19             "Get down, get down."

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Mr. Jordan, are you in this video?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When did you respond to this fire?

24        A.   I believe this fire was in October of 1993.

25        Q.   Where did this fire take place?

Page 1767

 1        A.   Near the -- near the Miljacka river at the juncture of the

 2     Grbavica salient and Skenderija.

 3        Q.   Could you please describe the building.  What type of building

 4     was it?

 5        A.   It was an industrial building.  We were told at the time that it

 6     might have been a furniture factory, and there was a lot of wood and

 7     furniture in it which is why it burned like it did.

 8        Q.   Was there anyone inside the building when you arrived?

 9        A.   No.  It was not a residential structure.

10             MR. WEBER:  If I could ask Ms. Stewart to please go back to 19

11     seconds into the video and pause the image.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13        Q.   And I see it's a little bit blurred.  If we could go forward just

14     a second.

15             Mr. Jordan, if you could look at the image before you, it is

16     paused at 20 seconds.  Do you recognise who is the person depicted at

17     this point in the video?

18        A.   That would be me.

19        Q.   After the initial comments by a news broadcaster, there was a

20     voice that stated:

21             "There was gun-fire that was coming from behind us and the fire

22     was in front of us."

23             Who was that person speaking and providing that description?

24        A.   That would be me.

25        Q.   In paragraph 31, you state:

Page 1768

 1             "The vast majority of fires I attended were in strictly civilian

 2     buildings."

 3             Between 1992 and 1995, how many times did you respond to a

 4     location of a fire that was a military target?

 5        A.   I think there were in the neighbourhood of a half-dozen occasions

 6     where we responded and found the burning structure to be strictly

 7     military, at which point we would leave.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Point of clarification, Your Honour.  I believe

 9     learned counsel is talking about paragraph 30 of that statement rather

10     than paragraph 31.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Mr. Weber, we had difficulties in finding your quote in 31.  So,

13     thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   Were there occasions where you responded to a fire and found

16     women and children inside the building?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   How often?

19        A.   The majority of the time.

20        Q.   In paragraph 27, you state:

21             "By far, the vast majority of the victims were civilians going

22     about their daily lives, trying to get food, trying to get water."

23             How often did you see civilians being shot at on the streets of

24     Sarajevo?

25        A.   On a daily basis, other than certain lulls that occurred, but it

Page 1769

 1     was like that all the time.  That was just daily life there.

 2        Q.   At this time, I will ask Ms. Stewart to please play another

 3     video-clip under 65 ter 22481B, as in Boy.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5              "I'm sorry, there's 350,000 people living in Sarajevo going

 6     about their business every day and then getting bombed and shelled doing

 7     it."

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Are you the person speaking in this video?

10        A.   Yes, sir.

11        Q.   When did you provide this interview?

12        A.   That interview was conducted at my home on, I believe, March 19th

13     in 1993.

14        Q.   In this video, there were people walking down a street.  Do you

15     recognise this location?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please tell us what it is.

18        A.   It's an east/west road we used to take.  We used to walk from the

19     fire house on Skenderija to PTT, UN headquarters, on a regular basis, and

20     that would be the high road that goes up behind the Holiday Inn.  The

21     picture depicts looking east.

22        Q.   While you were in Sarajevo, did you see civilians reacting to

23     gun-fire in a manner similar to those depicted in the video?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could Ms. Stewart please play video-clip 65 ter

Page 1770

 1     22481D, as in David.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Yes.  We received a call at about 4.30 local time from the

 4     Holiday Inn saying that they have been impacted by a number of either

 5     rocket-propelled grenades or mortars.  The Holiday Inn was shaken and

 6     then there was a fire reported.  We responded with two fire engines and

 7     an ambulance and arrived here and almost immediately started taking heavy

 8     sniper fire directed at us.  That's -- suspended the operation and the

 9     local brigade showed up about the same time.  Between the two of us, we

10     were able to extinguish the fire pretty much.  However, we are taking

11     heavy sniper fire at the time."

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Do you recognise the voice of the person speaking in the video?

14        A.   Yes.  That would be Mark Anderson, deputy chief at the time.

15        Q.   When did this fire occur at the Holiday Inn?

16        A.   I believe this one was in the fall of 1994.

17        Q.   There are a few vehicles depicted in this video.  The first one

18     was a truck with UN GOFRS in black lettering.  Could you please tell us

19     what this truck was.

20        A.   That was our fire truck, a -- a pumper truck with a thousand

21     gallons of water on it.

22        Q.   There was another white vehicle with blue sirens.

23        A.   That would be our armoured ambulance.

24        Q.   Who are the fire-fighters depicted in the video?

25        A.   Fire-fighter Mark Partello of Newport, Rhode Island is seen at

Page 1771

 1     the front of truck.  He was under fire at the time.  The gentleman moving

 2     about was Trevor Gibson.  He was not a fire-fighter.  He was a police

 3     officer from London that served with us.  He would be our liaison with

 4     the local cops and firemen.  In that video, Trevor was subsequently shot

 5     by a ricochet right after the video ended.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders 65

 7     ter 22481A through D into evidence as public exhibits.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No objection from the Defence, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 224 -- 2241A [sic] becomes Exhibit P132,

11     Your Honours.

12             Document 22481C becomes Exhibit P133, Your Honour.

13             Document 22481B becomes Exhibit P134, Your Honours.

14             Document 22481D becomes Exhibit P135, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  They are all admitted into evidence although the

16     record shows a wrong -- you may have misspoken, Madam Registrar.  The

17     first one was 22481A.  It has been corrected but I think it reflected

18     what you said.  All four are admitted as public exhibits.  Please

19     proceed.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I, just for the sake of the record, ask you

21     to repeat, Mr. Jordan, one of the last remarks.  On page 45, line 8, the

22     last sentence is recorded as in that video Trevor was shot, but I heard

23     that you said something different from that.  Could you please repeat

24     what you said.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Trevor was hit by a ricochet.  A bullet came

Page 1772

 1     off the ground and hit him.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that to be seen in the video.

 3             THE WITNESS:  No.  It happened only moments after that footage

 4     ended, sir.  But it was at that fire.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is what I heard you telling us earlier.

 6     Thank you very much.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   In paragraph 15 of your statement, you describe a process you

 9     followed when responding to a fire with local fire-fighters in Sarajevo.

10     You indicate that you provided grid references when you were fired upon

11     to the UN.  When did you begin this procedure?

12        A.   That procedure started in September 1993, after the UN signed the

13     protection order for firemen.

14        Q.   How did you determine the location where the shooting or shelling

15     was coming from in order to provide grid references?

16        A.   Visual observation.  We carried binoculars and night-vision gear.

17        Q.   Were the grid references from which the firing -- the fire was

18     coming located on Bosnian Serb army territory, or Bosnian government

19     territory, or both?

20        A.   I think all our reports wound up being on BSA territory.  We were

21     only engaged a couple of times from BiH territory.

22        Q.   In paragraphs 19 and 20 of your statement, you describe two

23     occasions where you were shot.

24             In paragraph 19, you describe being hit in the chest with a

25     bullet in November 1994, and you state:

Page 1773

 1             "We were fighting a fire at the time, right at the front -- front

 2     line, just north of Grbavica in Hero's Square."

 3             You continue to state:

 4             "I'm sure that the shot came from the Serb area of Grbavica."

 5             How is it that you are sure the shot came from Grbavica?

 6        A.   The structures we were fighting the fire in were residential but

 7     they had civilians on the inside facing the city and troops on the

 8     outside facing south, up towards the high ground.  We had to stretch hose

 9     from one structure to another and, at that point, I was exposed to open

10     ground that went uphill, and there was nothing between me and where the

11     shot came from above me.  It wasn't all that far away, and the way it hit

12     me, it drove me straight into the ground, and I heard the shot from above

13     and was looking in that direction but didn't see any muzzle flash or

14     anything like that.  It was -- I exposed myself for a moment and took a

15     bullet for it.

16        Q.   You've mentioned troops.  Were there any Bosnian government

17     troops in the area; and, if so, how are you able to rule out the

18     possibility that the shot came from those forces?

19        A.   At the time I was in the open stretching a hose, the hose did

20     have to cross a trench, but the troops were all under cover.  I don't

21     think there were any within 50 feet of me, and it was one well-aimed

22     shot.

23        Q.   Were you carrying a weapon on either of the occasions you were

24     shot in 1993 or 1994?

25        A.   No.

Page 1774

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordan, may I ask you one clarifying question:

 2     Whether you explained where the shot came from, do I understand you well

 3     that you were fighting the fire at such a short distance from the

 4     confrontation line that the fire coming from where you felt it came, that

 5     there was not much BiH territory left and it was so close to the --

 6             THE WITNESS:  There was nothing but open ground between me and

 7     where the shot came from.  There was nobody --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the closest structures from there were on

 9     the other side of the confrontation line?

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   In paragraphs 22 and 40, you mention your contacts with

15     Major Indic.  In paragraph 40, you state:

16             "Most of my dealings with the Serb forces were with Major Indic

17     and with Serb fire-fighters."

18             How often did you have contact with Major Indic?

19        A.   I saw Major Indic on a -- several times a week, up until the BSA

20     took his liaison office out of the PTT.  I would not always see him for

21     business, but I would see him when I was in PTT, and any dealings I had

22     referenced bringing equipment to Bosnian Serb firemen or visiting Pale,

23     all those meetings began with liaisoning with Major Indic first.  So he

24     was my first point of contact on any dealings with the BSA side or

25     bringing equipment into Sarajevo itself.

Page 1775

 1        Q.   When approximately was it that Major Indic took his liaison

 2     office out of the PTT?

 3        A.   I don't know exactly -- I don't remember exactly when the office

 4     left there.  I know he was there up until December of 1993.  So I would

 5     have to say after Christmas of 1993, some point the BSA forces no longer

 6     maintained a liaison office right in PTT.

 7        Q.   Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14106.

 8             Mr. Jordan, while this is coming up, in paragraph 13, you comment

 9     on this "Washington Post" clipping from 21 December 1993 and state:

10             "That was about a building which collapsed from shelling, and we

11     called Major Indic in Lukavica to have the shelling stopped while we

12     extracted a child trapped in the collapsed building.  He would get the

13     shelling stopped, and it did stop very soon thereafter."

14             Were you part of the GOFRS team that responded to this collapsed

15     building?

16        A.   Yes, I was the incident commander.

17        Q.   Where was this building located?

18        A.   Just north and slightly east of PTT.  Within sight of the PTT

19     building residential area.

20        Q.   Who was inside the building when you arrived?

21        A.   We were told three children were trapped in the building.  There

22     were numerous civilians going through the rubble, and there was us and a

23     number of local firemen.

24        Q.   How long after Major Indic was contacted did the shelling stop?

25        A.   Within minutes.  It was very prompt.  The shelling was going on.

Page 1776

 1     When we arrived, there was still shelling.  And we were informed the

 2     children were trapped.  And via UNHCR and PTT, we contacted Major Indic,

 3     and I assured him there was no military activity going on where we were,

 4     and the shelling stopped in moments.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 12 of your statement, with respect to the DVD you

 6     provided, you state:

 7             "There are videos of the Sarajevo Fire Brigade and GOFRS in

 8     action.  It includes a mother and son sniping incident in November 1994,

 9     during which the son was killed and the mother wounded.  I wasn't

10     physically present at the scene but some of my personnel were there."

11             You then state the names of three members of GOFRS who were at

12     the site.

13             How did you learn about the sniping involving the mother and son

14     in November 1994?

15        A.   Deputy Chief Mark Anderson contacted me in our office in

16     Washington and let me know.

17        Q.   Was this on the same day or a different day than the day the boy

18     was shot?

19        A.   I believe he called me as soon as he got back to the station.

20        Q.   Did you have a conversation with Todd Bayly about what happened

21     when the mother and boy were shot?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When did this conversation occur?

24        A.   When I gave my initial statement in August of 2006 - was it? -

25     excuse me.  I don't remember.

Page 1777

 1        Q.   Todd Bayly told you this -- did you have a conversation with Todd

 2     Bayly in 1994 about this incident, or did you only have a conversation

 3     with Todd Bayly about this incident in 2006?

 4        A.   It was 2006 that I called Todd for some clarification about the

 5     incident.

 6        Q.   Okay.  With respect to what you knew in 1994, what were you told

 7     about what happened the day the mother and boy were shot?

 8        A.   The mother and child had just visited the fire truck and our

 9     personnel.  It was a very active sniping day, so our personnel were

10     pre-positioned where people were being shot.  It was not their first

11     response of the day but it affected them.  The child had been asking for

12     candy, which the firemen used to give out, and right after doing so, him

13     and his mother were hit by a single bullet.

14             MR. WEBER:  At this time I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to please

15     play another video-clip.  It is 65 ter 22481E.  The Prosecution does want

16     to note for the record that there are graphic images of the victim of a

17     sniping incident in this video.  The Prosecution has notified the

18     victim's family that this video would be played today, and we also wanted

19     to alert the public to the fact that there are graphic images of the boy

20     in the video.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, your previous question, was that about

22     Scheduled Incident about F12.

23             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have adjudicated facts on that.

25             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

Page 1778

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You are aware of that.  What's the use, if

 2     apparently on the basis of more direct evidence this has been established

 3     by a previous Trial Chamber, to ask the witness what he heard from

 4     others, not being a personal observer of what happened.  So I'm a bit

 5     puzzled by that, also in view of the way in which you use your time in

 6     court.

 7             Mr. Jordan, this has got nothing to do with you.  It's just a

 8     matter of procedural rules.

 9             THE WITNESS:  No, worries, sir.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, of course I'm mindful of the two

11     adjudicated facts with respect to the incident.  I have not gone into

12     certain other details that he knows, and I was just trying to make it

13     clear what the foundation was for the witness, for his knowledge of this.

14     And I will, of course, be mindful of that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please proceed, and ...

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             "Go back.  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

18             "BSA ...

19             "She is hurt.

20             "Right now -- you're on his hands.  In the unit.  In the unit.

21     In the unit."

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Mr. Jordan, in the video, did you recognise the intersection

24     where the boy was laying?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1779

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us where that's located?

 2        A.   That's the zebra crossing on the 6th Proletariat Brigade

 3     Boulevard right by the museum.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us the names of the GOFRS fire-fighters who

 5     are in this video.

 6        A.   The first person you see is deputy chief Mark Anderson from

 7     Washington.  Then there is Trevor Gibson from Scotland, Todd Bayly from

 8     Canada, and Josh Wooding from Kansas.  And Randy Holliman [phoen] from

 9     Nevada.

10        Q.   During the video, the boy was turned over and then placed into an

11     ambulance.  Do you recognise this ambulance?

12        A.   Yes.  That was our former military ambulance that we got from

13     excess stocks in Europe.  It was unarmoured.  The first ambulance in the

14     video was our armoured ambulance, and the last one was our semi-armoured

15     Volkswagen ambulance.

16        Q.   I'm just going to ask you to clarify so the record is clear:

17     Which ambulance was the boy placed into?

18        A.   The unarmoured one.

19        Q.   A woman and a young girl were placed into a different vehicle.

20     Could you please tell us what vehicle that was?

21        A.   That would be a Volkswagen van that we had kind of self-armoured

22     on the inside ourselves.

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, can I please have just one moment.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

Page 1780

 1     the video-clip 65 ter 22481E into evidence as a public exhibit.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  22481E becomes Exhibit P136, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P136 is admitted into evidence.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Weber, what do you plan to do with 14106?

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you for catching that, Your Honour.  I see I

 8     missed that.  I was going to leave it as a housekeeping item to tender at

 9     the end of the examination.  I forgot to do so at the time.  With the

10     Chamber's leave, I would tender 65 ter 14106 as a public exhibit.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Also no objection.  That's one of the ones we had

12     discussed earlier.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14106 becomes Exhibit P137,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Mr. Jordan, in paragraph 29 of your statement, you state:

20             "From my visits to the Serb side, I could see mortar tubes well

21     dug in with their triangulation equipment and aiming stakes out.  There's

22     no doubt they were fixed positions with covers and corridors set up, and

23     there was no doubt they knew what they were aiming at."

24             Where did you see these mortars?

25        A.   When we would visit the Serb environment in Grbavica, we would

Page 1781

 1     have to go around the mountain via the airport, Lukavica, then up the

 2     back side and down into Lukavica.  So the ridge line above Sarajevo to

 3     the south was where many BSA gun positions were.  So we passed them on a

 4     regular basis.

 5        Q.   Approximately on how many occasions did you go to Lukavica and

 6     then continue down along the ridge line to the south of Sarajevo?

 7        A.   I'm sure we did that trip near a dozen times in the -- in the

 8     three years.

 9             MR. WEBER:  At this time, the Prosecution tenders the witness.

10             No further questions at this time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

12             Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I am, Your Honour, and I would --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just wondering, we'll take a break in six

15     minutes from now.  If you could choose a subject matter which you could

16     conclude within the next six minutes, then that would be appreciated.

17             Mr. Jordan, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.

18     Mr. Ivetic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

22        Q.   Mr. Jordan, at the beginning, first of all, good day.  I have

23     some questions that I would like to ask you to try and clarify portions

24     of your testimony and to get a better understanding of them.

25             As was case with Mr. Weber, since we both speak the English

Page 1782

 1     language, I would caution you to try and observe a pause between my

 2     question and your answer, and I shall try to do likewise.

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   I'd like to first discuss a topic that you've just mentioned from

 5     paragraph 29 of your statement.  You talked about mortar positions that

 6     you observed.  Am I correct that you never eye-witnessed these mortar

 7     positions while they were firing?

 8        A.   No, sir.  Not when I was observing them in passing them.  I did

 9     see them fire when I was down in the city but never when I was in

10     proximity to them.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, first I'd-like to go through some questions

12     with respect to your background.

13             The statement that is dated 2006 that was tendered into evidence

14     lists your current employment as director of the NGO, Global Operation

15     Fire Rescue Services.  Is that still the case?

16        A.   No, sir.

17        Q.   Can you tell us what your current employment is.

18        A.   I work in construction right now.  I do residential home

19     renovations.

20        Q.   Fair enough.  Can you tell us when is the last date that you were

21     affiliated as the director of the NGO, Global Operation Fire Rescue

22     Services, which I will now call GOFRS for the remainder of my

23     questioning?

24        A.   We shut down GOFRS in 2001, sir.

25        Q.   Up until 2001, during the existence of the NGO GOFRS, do you have

Page 1783

 1     any approximation as for your annual budget and where you obtained your

 2     financing from?

 3        A.   After 1995, GOFRS basically existed only on paper and with

 4     funding I myself put into it.  We put in our own money, myself and a few

 5     of our remaining personnel.  I travelled to several places to explore

 6     deployments between working in construction, and those deployments never

 7     worked out, and we decided to shut things down in 2001 with the events of

 8     9/11.

 9             So GOFRS as a unit never really deployed after Bosnia.  We did

10     try to keep it going.  We failed.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

13             Just for my understanding, so when we read on the cover page of

14     your 2006 statement: Current occupation director of GOFRS, that it was

15     already outdated.  Then --

16             THE WITNESS:  We --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And when in paragraph 2 I read:  "I am the founder

18     and director of," then it, I should understand that to be I was the

19     founder -- I am the founder.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I am.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And I was the director of --

22             THE WITNESS:  Right.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS:  Right.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

Page 1784

 1        Q.   And just one question before the break.  I believe we're up

 2     against that time.

 3             Sir, during the time period that GOFRS was in existence, did

 4     GOFRS do any consultancy with the work with the government organs of the

 5     United States or any state or local government of any state at any level?

 6        A.   We were asks to go to Haiti by the US army, which we did, and

 7     spent some time there looking at getting their fire department back on

 8     its feet.  But in spite of the army's invitation, the State Department

 9     decided to go another route.  We were a NGO.  It wound up being

10     contracted out.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I believe we are at the time reference

13     that you'd indicated you'd wish to take a break.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Could Mr. Jordan be escorted out.  We'd like to see you back in

16     25 minutes, Mr. Jordan.  You may follow the usher.

17             THE WITNESS:  Oh.  Pardon me.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes to

20     1.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

24             Mr. Ivetic, could you give us any indication about the time you'd

25     need in cross.

Page 1785

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I'd indicated to the Office of

 2     the Prosecutor that I anticipated one hour and 30 to 40 minutes for this

 3     witness in total.  I believe I'm still on that estimate, so I should be

 4     somewhere between 1 hour and 20 minutes to 1 hour and 30 minutes, and so

 5     I believe we used about 12 minutes during the last session.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's granted, Mr. Ivetic.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You may continue.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Jordan, before the break, we talked about GOFRS, the NGO.

12     Now I would like to ask you some questions about yourself personally, and

13     I'll ask you a similar question to the last question that we had.

14             Did you personally do any consultancy with any government organs

15     of the United States at a state or local government thereof at any level?

16        A.   As a paid consultant, no.  I worked as a NGO.  I have lectured at

17     the US Naval War College and at the Marine Corps war fighting laboratory

18     in Quantico, Virginia, and from time to time have been an instructor in

19     military subjects overseas, but that was not to do with GOFRS.

20        Q.   And just to be clear, I think your answer was about 90 per cent

21     clear.  Has none of this consultancy work ever had any anything to do

22     with fire-fighting or emergency services while fire-fighting?

23        A.   Well, yes.  The lecture series with the marine corps and the navy

24     was about conducting fire-fighting and rescue operations in hostile

25     environments.  Also, the marine corps was more focussed on

Page 1786

 1     counter-sniping, so I talked to them about that.

 2        Q.   With regard to the time-period that you spent in the

 3     United States Marine Corps, did you have occasion to see active combat as

 4     a marine?

 5        A.   No, sir.  Not as a marine.

 6        Q.   You qualify your answer.  Apart from the experience in Sarajevo,

 7     did you have occasion to see active combat in the course of your

 8     experiences?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.  I have.

10        Q.   Okay.  Could you tell us what other instances apart from the

11     situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 1990s wherein you saw active

12     combat?

13        A.   I spent some time in Beirut.  I spent some time in

14     Central America.  I lived in the Congo mostly working as a medic.  So,

15     yes, I've seen some combat.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And I apologise.  I'm not dissatisfied with your

17     answer, I just am waiting for the transcript to catch up with us.

18             What was the highest rank that you obtained within the marine

19     corps?

20        A.   That would be sergeant, E-5.

21        Q.   As an E-5 sergeant, how many men at arms did you have under your

22     command?

23        A.   At one time I was a platoon sergeant in a weapons platoon, which

24     gave me approximately 40 men.  My last job was as a chief scout sniper in

25     a -- what was called a STANO platoon, meaning Surveillance, Target,

Page 1787

 1     Acquisition and Night Operations.  That gave me about 25.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, until now, the Chamber is puzzled about

 3     relevance of these details, but make that clear as soon as you can,

 4     because you're supposed to present relevant evidence.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe that the background of

 6     the witness and his training is relevant, as is his knowledge of persons

 7     on the ground of that reputation, and we're getting to that section,

 8     Your Honours, so I would ask the Court's indulgence.  And if I do ask any

 9     question that Your Honours believe is improper under the Rules, I would

10     ask that I be advised of that and I will consider that at that point.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Come to your point as soon as possible.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, sir, where -- wherein you were posted as a marine, did you

14     have occasion to become engaged in any clandestine operations or

15     activities outside of the United States?  And for purposes of this

16     question, sir, if feel that you can't answer this question, I understand,

17     and you can tell me so.

18        A.   I'm not going to answer that.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, I'm going to have to repeat what

22     Judge Orie had asked just a few minutes ago, and I'm going to ask the

23     question very pointedly:  Is that purpose of that question intended to

24     say -- to -- to go to the credibility of the witness?

25             MR. IVETIC:  In part it does, Your Honour.  Depending on the

Page 1788

 1     answers.  I obviously don't know 100 per cent all the answers to the

 2     questions that I ask, but I have an idea based upon the information that

 3     has been provided for this witness.  It also goes to his training and to

 4     methods in -- which were employed on the ground and whether those methods

 5     that were employed were of a strictly military nature or of a strictly

 6     fire-fighting nature, and I believe it's is necessary to understand in

 7     particular the evidence of this witness as to incoming fire that came

 8     towards him and his colleagues to understand the training and the manner

 9     of operation that they had on the ground, because those are items that

10     are, I believe, relevant to that question.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, Mr. Ivetic, to the extent that I listened

12     here to the witness, he was in Sarajevo as a fire-fighter and he's

13     testified about things that he observed while he was fire-fighting fire.

14     He's not talking about his expertise as a fire-fighter.  He is telling us

15     what he saw happen on the ground.  So he comes across to me as a fact

16     witness, not an expert witness.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I agree that is he a fact witness, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, Mr. Ivetic, all the things you say you

19     would like to know from the witness, ask him about that, more directly.

20     Go more straighter to where --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They're not even [overlapping speakers].

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you want to --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But they're not even relevant to his testimony.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I beg to differ.  The statement of the

25     witness talks about the witness as a fire-fighter shooting upon persons.

Page 1789

 1     I don't know if Your Honours are familiar with that.  But I believe,

 2     therefore that it is very much relevant what his military training was,

 3     what his standard procedures and protocols were for operations.  Those

 4     are directly relevant to the testimony in his statement which has entered

 5     under Rule 92 ter and which I have to therefore address.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it make any difference whether he had once 20

 7     or 80 people under his command?  These kind of details.  If that's what

 8     you want to know, ask the witness about it in a more direct way so that

 9     we come to the point as quickly as possible.  Please proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   I don't believe I have a pending question, so I will move on the

12     next question, sir, and I will be as direct as possible in trying to

13     further the comments -- to comply with the comments of the Chamber.

14             Sir, am I correct that in the course of your work with the marine

15     corps you were also part of an intelligence battalion, the rifle

16     battalion intelligence?

17        A.   Yes, the scout sniper platoon is in the table of organisation

18     equipment in the S2, intelligence section.  Yes.

19        Q.   And I have to ask you this with regard to your deployment to

20     Sarajevo, the DVD that you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor,

21     among the items there is a speech by Vice-President Al Gore of the

22     United States praising you for taking up President Clinton's call to

23     intervene in Bosnia.  Did you go to Bosnia at the behest of the United

24     States government in any capacity?

25        A.   No, sir.  I did not.

Page 1790

 1        Q.   With regard to the time-period when you left the marines, am I

 2     correct, sir, and I think this is at paragraph 2 of your statement, that

 3     you were a marksmanship instructor in many different nations.  Can we

 4     clarify if this was as a marine or as a private citizen?

 5        A.   That was a private citizen, sir.

 6        Q.   Were you at that time what is considered a paid mercenary or

 7     independent contract -- private contractor?

 8        A.   I was an advisor and instructor.  I was not a paid soldier of a

 9     country other than the United States.

10        Q.   Okay.  I want to clarify one thing and I'm going to show what's

11     been marked as Prosecution 65 ter number 14104, and this is a one-page

12     article.  And in the middle of that article, there is a curious reference

13     about you.  First of all, am I correct that this article is from the

14     time-period that you were -- one of the time-periods that you went to

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina and to Yugoslavia?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   In the middle of this article, and I quote now.  It says:

18             "Both point Comenisoli [phoen] and Allen point to Jordan, a

19     ten-year marine veteran, as the driving force behind providing

20     fire-fighters with much needed supplies."

21             And the question I have for you, sir, is very simple:  How do you

22     account for the fact that this publication of the Department of Defence

23     lists you as a ten-year marine veteran when, in fact, your testimony is

24     that you only were a five-year marine veteran?

25        A.   I would have to put that in the same category as the one article

Page 1791

 1     that describes me as being from Harrison, New York, and I have never been

 2     to Harrison, New York.  The media often gets things, whether civilian or

 3     military, incorrect.  I don't know why they came up with ten, sir.

 4        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  And the media in this case, this

 5     is Stars and Stripes magazine.  This is the Department of Defence

 6     authorised daily newspaper; am I correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  It is my understanding that the article was written by what

 8     looks like senior airman, that would be an enlisted man.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to turn to your first trip to

10     Sarajevo or Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Am I correct that as part of your first

11     deployment in 19 --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber is on his feet.

13             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would just inquire as to whether or

14     not the Defence intends to tender the article.  We would not object to

15     it, but we would be then seeking to enter it ourselves for context.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, what I -- the evidence of the witness is

18     that what was published here, you've his attention only to being

19     described as a ten-year marine veteran, that he says that's factually

20     wrong.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And I explained that is what I was asking the

22     question about and he's clarified that.  I don't see a reason to

23     introduce it as part of my evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we leave it as it is.  Please proceed.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 1792

 1        Q.   Sir, with regard to your first deployment, I believe that was in

 2     November of 1992, am I correct that this was not co-ordinated by -- with

 3     the United Nations but, rather, was co-ordinated by you via the Bosnian

 4     Embassy?

 5        A.   That would be correct, sir.

 6        Q.   And would I be -- also be correct that during this first trip,

 7     this was before the NGO had been created and that you travelled alone in

 8     the capacity of a private citizen?

 9        A.   Yes, sir.

10        Q.   Am I correct that at the time of your first trip to Sarajevo in

11     November 1992, sir, you had only served as a volunteer fireman in the

12     state of Rhode Island for approximately six months?

13        A.   That would be correct, sir, in addition to some experience

14     fighting wild fires in the American west.

15        Q.   Prior to your deployment to Sarajevo, did you obtain any briefing

16     or training as to the parties on the ground and as to any assessment as

17     to how the war or conflict started in that region?

18        A.   I received minimal information from the Bosnian Embassy.  At the

19     time, I only knew what I had gleaned from magazine articles and the

20     graphic footage we saw of the firemen and what they were going through.

21     So I did not know nearly what I should have known before I went.

22        Q.   And, sir, both and you and have I used the term "Bosnian

23     Embassy."  Am I correct that when you use that term you imply the forces

24     that were allied with Mr. Izetbegovic?

25        A.   That would be correct, sir.

Page 1793

 1        Q.   At the time that you went to Sarajevo in November of 1992, did

 2     people in Sarajevo - that is to say, on both sides of the conflict line -

 3     know of your background previously serving as a US marine?

 4        A.   I know I spoke to the Bosnian Embassy about that, that I had

 5     served in the marines.  I found them to be more interested in the

 6     fire-fighting aspect, not my former military service, and found that to

 7     be also true of the firemen that I was with when I first got to Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   I'm going to now ask you the same question.  Did persons -- on a

 9     different aspect.  Did persons in Sarajevo both -- on both sides of the

10     conflict line become aware of your prior history as a paid private

11     contractor for several nations training armed forces?

12        A.   I would say yes, because the military situation in Sarajevo, in

13     and around Sarajevo, completely overshadowed the fire and rescue

14     operations we were trying to conduct, and one of the first things I

15     realised, which, I think, anyone, ex-marine or not, would realise, that

16     the fire departments needed on both sides, was protection, which the UN

17     was not, at the time, providing, so the firemen could do their jobs.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordan, could I invite you to directly answer

19     the question.

20             The question was whether, in Sarajevo, people on both sides of

21     the conflict line became aware of your prior history?  Did you tell them?

22     Did they show in any way that they were aware?

23             THE WITNESS:  My military background came out, sir, as a result

24     of all the military activity around us.  When you are fighting a fire in

25     residential structures where sometimes people hide weapons in walls, it

Page 1794

 1     became clear that I knew how to handle them and put them in a safe

 2     condition so we could continue fighting fires.

 3             Also --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you can gain a lot of military experience

 5     without anyone knowing that you had been contracted as a private person

 6     for several nations training armed forces.  That's -- the two are not the

 7     same.

 8             You are talking about military experience.  The question was

 9     about anyone being aware of your past, being engaged in contracting in

10     military training for other nations.

11             THE WITNESS:  I'm sure some people were aware of it.  Yes, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you know that?

13             THE WITNESS:  I had people ask me because I -- you run into some

14     of the same people in the course of international operations, so --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You told to some of them.

16             THE WITNESS:  If somebody asked me, Were you doing such-and-such,

17     I'd say, Yes.  I had no reason to lie.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, you just raised an interesting point while answering

22     Judge Orie's question.  You indicated that while fighting fires in

23     residential structures you often would come across weapons hidden in the

24     walls.  Am I correct that you are talking about residential structures

25     within the territory of the ABiH forces in Sarajevo?

Page 1795

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Prior to going to Sarajevo, had you attended any

 3     formal educational forces in fire safety or relating to the work of

 4     fire-fighting or obtained any degrees from any such institution?

 5        A.   I passed the basic fire-fighters course in Bristol, Rhode Island,

 6     enough to earn my badge.

 7        Q.   I appreciate that, sir.  If we can now move to some specific

 8     points I would like to address.  In paragraph 7 of your statement -- I

 9     apologise, sir.  Do you have a copy in front of you?

10        A.   Not at this time, sir.

11             MR. IVETIC:  If we could have the -- it's Exhibit P126.  If we

12     can have that pulled up in e-court, and I'm focussing on the second page

13     in the English.  Paragraph number 7.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would it be helpful if the witness would have

15     a hard copy as well so that --

16             MR. IVETIC:  It would, Your Honour, and I would defer to opposing

17     counsel.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that the Prosecution has a copy available.  Do

19     you want to inspect it, Mr. Ivetic, or do you --

20             MR. IVETIC:  I do not.  If Mr. Weber says it's clean --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it can be given to the witness right away.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Sir, if I can draw your attention to paragraph 7.  In your

Page 1796

 1     statement you state that:

 2             "The first month or so I worked on making sure that the fuel

 3     which the UN was donating to the local fire department was actually being

 4     given by the Bosnian government to the local fire department."

 5             My question for you, sir:  Can we take from this statement that

 6     you had knowledge of instances where persons in the Bosnian government

 7     were misappropriating humanitarian aid and using it for purposes other

 8     than which they were intended?

 9        A.   I know that fuel meant for the fire department was not getting to

10     the fire department until there was international oversight.  There was

11     none till we got there.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And when say again the Bosnian government, are we

13     again talking about the government that was led by Alija Izetbegovic?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   At paragraph 8 of your statement, this -- here you mention and

16     you state that quote/unquote:  "We decided to form the NGO."  If you

17     could just briefly, you don't have to give names, but by giving us an

18     idea of who the other person are that were affiliated with you when you

19     formed the NGO?

20        A.   That would be my partner at the time, Elizabeth Hoban, and four

21     buddies from work.  We decided we were going to address the issue.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to talk about your subsequent

23     engagements in Sarajevo.

24             We previously saw the article about -- from Stars and Stripes

25     that was about a military plane that brought some equipment in.  Am I

Page 1797

 1     correct, sir, that when you went back to Sarajevo, at one point you could

 2     not arrange a means of getting your gear into Sarajevo and you had to

 3     arrange an unofficial US military transport plane?

 4        A.   I'm not aware that there any unofficial military transport

 5     planes.  We basically secured the support of a senator back home,

 6     Senator Pell, who made a phone call and got space for us on military

 7     transport to get equipment from the States to Frankfurt.  Once in

 8     Frankfurt, we were able to get in line with the rest of the UN air-lift

 9     aircraft to get equipment into Sarajevo.  While those aircraft may have

10     been US, they were tasked to the UN.  So the only strictly US military

11     aircraft we ever got access to was from the states to Europe.  After

12     that, it was all UN, whose ever colours they happened to be.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic I would like to ask a follow-up question

14     to the witness.

15             You said your partner at the time, and then you gave her name.

16     Now, the family name of your partner at the time.

17             THE WITNESS:  Hoban, sir.  H-O-B-A-N.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then that makes my question superfluous.  It was

19     wrongly spelled.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Judge Orie.

22        Q.   Sir, I'd like to show you Prosecution 65 ter number 14094.  And

23     while we wait for that, I can tell you that this is another of the

24     articles that you provided to the Prosecution, and it is a Firehouse

25     magazine article dated sometime in 1994.  Do you recall this as one of

Page 1798

 1     the articles that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   And if I direct your attention to the first column of this

 4     article, and it's at the bottom of the first column and runs off to the

 5     top of the middle column, and the selection says quote, talking about

 6     you, I believe:

 7             "He adds that Sarajevo has its own city ambulances but because of

 8     local corruption, most are used as taxis by local politicians and don't

 9     pick up patients."

10             Sir, does this article accurately reflect a comment that you made

11     to Firehouse magazine in or about 1994.

12        A.   Yes, sir, it does.

13        Q.   And, again, is this section talking about local politicians,

14     would that be talking about local politicians belonging to the government

15     of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   One other question I have to ask about this article, and this

18     comes from the last or third column.  It's in the middle of that, and I

19     will -- I'll read it for you and hopefully the -- the English version

20     will reflect that.  There it is.

21             "Not only does the GOFRS team in Sarajevo provide fire and EMS

22     support for the UN and local civilians, they also are called upon to

23     serve as the EMS team when US politicians visit the area.  In one

24     instance, they were requested to provide temporary security for the US

25     Embassy in Sarajevo because the state department's diplomatic security

Page 1799

 1     unit couldn't make it into Sarajevo on time."

 2             And, sir, again, does this article accurately reflect information

 3     that you provided to the Firehouse magazine in 1994?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   Am I to understand from this section that you and your team

 6     served as armed guards for the US Embassy at some point in time in

 7     Sarajevo?

 8        A.   Yes, it does.

 9        Q.   How many of your men served with you as armed guards for the

10     US Embassy?

11        A.   The statement reflects, I think -- I think it was less than maybe

12     two or three incidents where the embassy, again like it says, could not

13     get people in due to flights being cancelled.  They asked us to just

14     stand by until security did.  The vast majority of my personnel did not

15     carry weapons.  Only a few who had either police or military experience

16     did.  This was partially a result of the UN's not wanting to provide

17     assistance to the embassy.  The common phrase among UNPROFOR was that if

18     the Americans need more security, they can send some US troops.  I

19     completely saw their point.

20             We also helped other embassies, but, of course, would not say no

21     to our own if they asked us for any assistance that we thought was

22     legitimate to provide.

23        Q.   And, sir, when you say "we" and "my people," are you talking

24     about fellow members of the GOFRS fire-fighting service that served as

25     armed guards for the US and other embassies on several other occasions?

Page 1800

 1        A.   Yes.  And only -- again, only the personnel who were trained to

 2     handle weapons and were willing to do so, did.  We did not require

 3     everybody to do so.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If I can then move on.  Who provided the

 5     weaponry used in this task of securing the US and other embassies on

 6     several occasions in Sarajevo?

 7        A.   We brought our own.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I see that the exhibit -- the document

 9     is still up on the screen.  I would inquire of the Prosecution if there's

10     an objection or if I can tender this as an exhibit into evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14094 becomes Exhibit D41, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D41 is admitted.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Sir, you indicated you brought your own weapons.  Can I ask you,

18     sir, how it was that you brought these weapons into Sarajevo?  And --

19     well, I'll leave it -- you can answer in way that is appropriate, sir.

20        A.   Well, they all passed through various customs in the US, Europe,

21     and then we get on the plane.  If we were flying in that day from

22     Frankfurt or when we drove in sometimes we'd bring in convoys of

23     equipment.  Everything was out and in the open.  Nothing was hidden.

24        Q.   And if I can direct your attention to, I believe, it's

25     paragraph 34 of your statement, and I think that details some of the

Page 1801

 1     weapons that you personally brought.

 2             Am I correct that you had a US M14 battle rifle and a Barrett

 3     sniper rifle, as well as a 50-calibre weapon?

 4        A.   The Barrett is a 50-calibre weapon, sir.

 5        Q.   That was going to be my next question, since I know it's known as

 6     the light 50.  Thank you.  What about the M14, is that a weapon that you

 7     also had on your person?

 8        A.   The M1A version, civilian non-automatic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the reference to paragraph 34 accurate,

10     Mr. Ivetic?

11             MR. IVETIC:  One, moment, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it doesn't give any details but you're now

13     eliciting the details from this witness.

14             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honours.  I was trying to

15     supplement the information that I know of about this witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Sir, if we could just briefly talk about the M1 -- M14 variant.

19     Am I correct that this is a -- albeit a semi-automatic, it's still a

20     battle rifle; it fires a 7.62-millimetre bullet?

21        A.   That would be correct, sir.

22        Q.   And during the time-period you were residing in Rhode Island; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Was possession of both of these armaments in Rhode Island

Page 1802

 1     authorised by local law at the time in question?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   Would you agree with me that both of these weapons are in

 4     particular -- strike that.

 5             Would you agree with me that at least the Barrett sniper rifle is

 6     considered a military grade weapon?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   And would you agree with me that the slug fired by this weapon is

 9     the 12.7 times 99 NATO bullet that is used in the Browning heavy

10     machine-gun?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   Okay.  What about the other members of your team that were armed

13     that were providing security for various embassies in Sarajevo?  Did they

14     also have what is called military grade armaments?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   And with respect to your -- load out that you used -- pardon me,

17     the ammunition, was that also military grade ammunition?

18        A.   Yes, sir.

19        Q.   If we could focus now on your everyday activities with the GOFRS

20     as a fire-fighting unit.  Am I correct that it was a well known fact to

21     everyone in the area on both sides of the conflict line that both

22     yourself and albeit not all but several members of your team were armed

23     and carried these military-grade weapons with you in the course of your

24     duties?

25        A.   Yes, sir.  That would be correct.

Page 1803

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarifying question there.

 2             If you say carried these military-grade weapons with you, would

 3     you mean that you carried them with your body or that you had them in

 4     your vehicles?  Because reading your statement, I got the impression that

 5     when you were having your weapons with you, that they were in the car but

 6     not necessarily in your hands.

 7             THE WITNESS:  That would be true, Your Honour.  Most of the time

 8     we kept them in the vehicles, the long guns.  The personnel who

 9     functioned as MLOs, military liaisons, they carried handguns which were,

10     of course, on them, but there was very little walking around with a rifle

11     on anybody's part.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   On how many occasions would you estimate that you yourself

16     actually had to draw one of your weapons and fire the same or threaten to

17     do so during the entire time you were in Sarajevo while you were on duty

18     as a fire-fighter?  And when I say "in Sarajevo," I intend to include

19     both sides of the conflict line?

20        A.   I don't think I ever threatened anybody with a rifle.  It either

21     came out and was used or did not come out at all.  Scores of occasions.

22        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to your colleagues in the GOFRS as

23     to on how many occasions those that were armed took out their weapons and

24     actually fired them at somebody in the course of providing fire-fighting

25     services in Sarajevo, again, on both sides of the conflict line?

Page 1804

 1        A.   It would be minimal from my personnel.  I handled most of that.

 2        Q.   Now, if we can look at -- I believe it's paragraph 23 of your

 3     statement.  We've talked about several times when you were struck by

 4     snipers.  Here in paragraph 23 is another incident that the Prosecution

 5     did not go into, but I would like to.  Here you talk about an incident

 6     where you were wounded and your vehicle was, quote/unquote "ventilated."

 7     Now I understand what you mean, sir, but for those that do not know

 8     military jargon, what -- what do you mean -- by that do you mean that the

 9     mortar shrapnel penetrated your vehicle?

10        A.   Yes.  We were responding to a house fire.  We had already

11     stretched hoses from the truck down to the house on fire, and a number of

12     mortar rounds then landed in close proximity to the trucks and filled the

13     trucks full of holes, ventilated them.

14        Q.   And am I correct, sir, you, sir, were wounded on this occasion,

15     and this is the only time you were actually physically wounded?

16        A.   I had gone back to try and shut the trucks off.  The mortar

17     rounds penetrated the tanks, and when the pump is running with no water

18     in it the pump can burn-out.  So I tried to get back to the truck to shut

19     the trucks off but more rounds landed, several in close proximity.  I got

20     my bell wrung and some minor shrapnel because it landed close to me but

21     fortunately a few feet above me.  So --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordan, you're describing the event in some

23     detail; whereas, the question was whether it was the only time you were

24     actually physically wounded.

25             I take it that [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 1805

 1             THE WITNESS:  It's the only time metal got to me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.  And may I invite you to focus

 3     very much on what is specifically asked.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  And thank you, Your Honour, for the assistance.

 8        Q.   And sir, on this occasion that we're talking about, in

 9     paragraph 23, would you agree that your conclusion was that you had

10     been -- that the side that had shot at you with the mortar was the side

11     controlled by Mr. Izetbegovic's forces?

12        A.   On that occasion, I thought that was the case, sir.

13        Q.   Based upon the placement of the craters from the mortar rounds,

14     as well as the high angle of the same, and any other factors, did you

15     come to the conclusion that you had been intentionally targeted by the

16     forces of Mr. Izetbegovic?

17        A.   I think somebody shot at us that day, and I think they came from

18     behind us.  Whether it was intentional or not, you know ...

19        Q.   Fair enough, sir.  Am I correct, sir, that apart from these three

20     incidents, that is to say, the two incidents you discussed in direct and

21     this incident you've now discussed with me, that there were many other

22     occasions when either you or your colleagues were shot at by someone from

23     either side?

24        A.   Yes.  We were shot at on a fairly regular basis.

25        Q.   And now I'd like to show you what's been marked as 1D00183.

Page 1806

 1             And, sir, while we wait for that, I could perhaps give you an

 2     introduction.  This is a document that I obtained about another

 3     individual in a similar line of work from Rhode Island, Mr. Curt Varone,

 4     who we see from here is the director -- was the director of fire service

 5     division of legal and liability risk management institute, a practicing

 6     attorney in Rhode Island and Maine, with 37 years in the fire service,

 7     retiring in 2008 as deputy assistant chief of the Providence Fire

 8     Department, and director of public fire protection at the National Fire

 9     Protection Association.  And if we move down, we see that he has two

10     degrees, one in biology, one in fire safety, and in 1997 he completed the

11     executive fire officer programme at the National Fire Academy, becoming

12     the first person ever to receive four outstanding applied research

13     awards.  I don't suppose, sir, that you -- that Mr. Varone is someone

14     that you would be familiar with through your line of work?

15        A.   No, that's a very senior fire-fighter there, and he would have

16     been way out of my league.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I appreciate your candor.  Now with respect to

18     these institutions named herein, especially the National Fire Academy and

19     the National Fire Protection Association, are these organisations ones

20     that you are familiar with?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

23             MR. WEBER:  Just objection, relevance.  What's the relevance of

24     all this?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

Page 1807

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Well --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We only are at the point where a person is

 3     identified.  I take it that there will be some follow up and not just to

 4     make the Court familiar with the existence of Mr. Curt Varone.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  There will be some follow-up, Your Honours.  I did

 6     this in this way so that both the witness and Your Honours could see the

 7     foundation for my questions, and I will be presenting a piece authored by

 8     Mr. Varone precisely on the topic of fire-fighters who are armed and what

 9     additional risks that brings.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll listen to what comes now.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Sir, if I can repeat my question for you.

13             The institutions mentioned herein, namely the National Fire

14     Academy and the National Fire Protection Association, are those

15     fire-fighting associations that you are aware of?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   Do you have any affiliations with either of these institutions?

18        A.   I am sure that during the 1992 to 1995 time-period, I probably

19     met the directors of both of them at various functions in the

20     United States, the Congressional Fire Services Institute which is also

21     associated with the folks you mention here.  I know who these

22     institutions are, right.

23        Q.   Fair enough.  And now, I will not leave you in suspense.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to show 1D00182, which is a document

25     authored by Varone from the internet, and I would direct the --

Page 1808

 1     Madam Registrar to go to page 2 in e-court, and I'd like to focus on the

 2     fifth paragraph from the top of this document, and I'd like to present to

 3     you, sir, what Mr. Varone has written and then ask for your comment on

 4     the same.  So please bear with me.  And the part that I'm asking about

 5     starts off:

 6             "Lastly, once some fire-fighters in the community are known to be

 7     armed, the bad guys out there will likely assume that all fire-fighters

 8     in the community are armed.  Admittedly, the argument can be made that

 9     that could work in our favour, but it may also serve to put unarmed

10     fire-fighters at risk of pre-emptive attack.  Most importantly,

11     fire-fighters and EMS personnel may no longer be viewed by some in the

12     community as the good guys but rather as armed agents of an oppressive

13     government."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber is on his feet.

15             MR. WEBER:  Again, I would object to relevance.  I don't see --

16     well, one, this appears to be a web page.  If Mr. Ivetic could assist me

17     as to how this was written by Mr. Patrone, that would be helpful.

18             But, two, the relevance of domestic fire-fighters and whether or

19     not an incident happens in Long [sic] Island and its relation to then the

20     significance under US law and that -- how that would then relate in

21     Sarajevo during war time, this article appears to have no relevance.

22             We would add that also offering the opinions of an individual who

23     is not testifying here is improper.  The -- it should be based on what

24     the witness knows and what his personal experiences are.

25             MR. IVETIC:  If I may respond with the objections in the order

Page 1809

 1     that they came.

 2             The next page of the document indicates that this is posted by

 3     Curt Varone, not Patrone, Varone, the individual we discussed.  This is

 4     his page.  And it can be checked.  That's the information that's there.

 5             I believe that this is relevant.  We are talking about

 6     fire-fighting.  We are talking about armed fire-fighters.  And I am not

 7     presenting this for truth of the matter asserted, I am asking -- going to

 8     be asking Mr. Jordan to comment upon this and see if we can directly tie

 9     some of these concerns to the situation that Mr. Jordan saw in Sarajevo

10     which is of direct relevance to us, and I believe it is in direct

11     relevance to one Scheduled Incident of the indictment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber grants the objection not

15     because the matter in itself could not be raised, but the way in which

16     you do it.  You introduce more or less expert opinion and then ask the

17     witness to comment on it.  Again, it's not a matter which could not be

18     raised with the witness but not in this way.

19             Mr. Jordan, have you considered when you decided to be armed, at

20     least some members of your teams, what effect this would have on the

21     population -- on the confidence of the population or armed forces would

22     have in your functioning as fire-fighters?

23             THE WITNESS:  With all due respect to Chief Varone, the

24     casualties on the Sarajevo fire department from gun-fire and shelling

25     exceeded 20 per cent of the department, one man in five, before we

Page 1810

 1     started addressing the issue of snipers.  They -- they lost no one after

 2     we started protecting them to gun-fire at fires.  That would be my answer

 3     to Mr. Varone.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you were not asked to answer to

 5     Mr. Varone.  You were asked to answer my question.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Which was whether you have considered that at the

 8     time the effect as I described it, and as suggested as a possible --

 9             THE WITNESS:  Carefully considered it, sir, and talked to folks

10     on both sides of the confrontation line before we did it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   And would you agree with me that when you say you considered the

15     risk that there was considerable risk from proceeding armed in the course

16     of performing fire-fighter duties?

17        A.   With casualties standing at 20 per cent the first year into the

18     war and with no end to the war in sight, I thought the risk of not

19     actively protecting firemen would increase the risk to the fire

20     department not existing.

21        Q.   Sir, at that time that you made this decision and accepted this

22     risk, am I correct that there's not a single fire department or

23     fire-fighter organisation which advocated that fire-fighters should be

24     arrangement with military-grade 50 calibre sniper rifles and battle

25     rifles?

Page 1811

 1        A.   My answer to that would that the BSA firemen were armed to the

 2     teeth.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Would you agree with me that your decision to proceed with

 4     the GOFRS personnel being armed was a result of your military background

 5     and military experiences, rather than your -- rather than what was taught

 6     to you in the basic fire-fighting course which you completed to train you

 7     as a fire-fighter?

 8        A.   Looking at the casualties the firemen were taking and the best

 9     way to prevent them, the answer to that did lie in my military

10     experience, but it was all to complete the fire-fighting job.  We never

11     got involved in anything that could be considered a force multiplier for

12     either of the warring sides.  We strictly protected firemen.  So did not

13     see what we were doing as even a combat operation.  More like a

14     constabulary-type thing.  Whereas firemen traditionally do not carry

15     arms, fire marshals in many countries do, and they address criminality

16     involved with arson.  Those men are allowed to arrest people who start

17     fires or intend to start fires.  Those firemen are armed.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, based upon your significant military experience

19     and background and your training, would you agree with me that the

20     standard rules of engagement used by many armed forces calls for an

21     otherwise civilian personnel to become a legitimate target of deadly

22     force if they are seen to be armed with a weapon and especially if they

23     present offensive or defensive deadly fire?

24        A.   In most militaries, the person only has to be armed to be

25     considered military.  The uniform is a secondary issue.

Page 1812

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And would you agree with me that GOFRS, or

 2     persons -- some of persons within GOFRS were not only armed but were

 3     presenting offensive deadly fire to persons that were armed?

 4        A.   I am not aware of anybody in GOFRS ever providing offensive fire.

 5     We only fired to defend unarmed firemen who were engaged by personnel who

 6     were armed and may or may not have been in uniform.  We also only engaged

 7     to drive people off.  We did not necessarily shoot to kill.  We shoot to

 8     drive people off, because that is all it took in the vast majority of

 9     cases.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If I can direct your attention to paragraph 24 of

11     your statement.  Here is where you state, and then I quote:

12             "I would classify most of the shooters as marksmen, not snipers."

13             Then later on you say:

14             "Most of the shooting was with medium quality weapons with

15     low-power scopes."

16             Would you agree with me that here we're talking about the snipers

17     that were shooting upon the GOFRS personnel in this paragraph?

18        A.   I'm saying that I considered most of the people who were referred

19     to as snipers as, in actuality, gunmen, not necessarily a trained sniper

20     who could hit somebody a thousand yards away.

21             The expression "sniper" in Sarajevo was used by just about anyone

22     to refer to when anyone was shot when that was really not the case.  Many

23     of the people who were shot walking around were shot by men who fired a

24     burst out of a window from a thousand yards away, and people would say

25     the wounded person was hit by a sniper when they were actually hit by,

Page 1813

 1     you know, some guy literally holding a gun over a wall and letting a

 2     magazine go.  They would say the person was shot by a sniper.  If there

 3     were really that many good snipers there, there would have been more

 4     dead.

 5        Q.   Would the fact that these persons that were incorrectly referred

 6     to as snipers, would the fact that they were using low-power scopes,

 7     medium quality weapons, and were not persons with accuracy to be snipers,

 8     would that mean that they would have lower accuracy than someone who

 9     would be trained as a sniper?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm a bit concerned and puzzled by "these persons."

14             Did I understand, Mr. Jordan, your explanation well that you

15     said, Not all of that shooting at long distance was the work of

16     snipers --

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you say that nothing of it was done by trained

19     snipers or --

20             THE WITNESS:  No.  There were snipers there but not in the

21     numbers everybody talks about.  If that was the case, I wouldn't be here.

22     But there was a lot of random shooting by what I call gunmen.  And in

23     Sarajevo, every time somebody was shot they would say he was shot by a

24     sniper but that just wasn't the case.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So do I understand your answer well that you

Page 1814

 1     say there have been snipers but not all of the fire which was attributed

 2     to snipers would have come from snipers because --

 3             THE WITNESS:  No, sir.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that how I have understand --

 5             THE WITNESS:  That's how I'm saying it.  Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.  By the way, I'm looking at the

 8     clock.  Mr. Ivetic, if we would take a break of 20 minutes, there would

 9     be 20 minutes left in today's session.  Would there be any way, first of

10     all, I'll ask Mr. Weber.

11             Mr. Weber, how much time do you think you would need for

12     re-examination.

13             MR. WEBER:  About five minutes right now.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  About five minutes.  Let me check with my

15     colleagues.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if you would be able to conclude after

18     the break in altogether 1 hour and 15 minutes rather than 1 hour and 20

19     minutes --

20             MR. IVETIC:  It's doable.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see, then we could finish at quarter past

22     2.00.  The Chamber may have a one or two questions.  If that would be

23     possible so that we try to conclude the evidence of this witness --

24             MR. IVETIC:  As I indicated, it's doable, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- today.  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 1815

 1             We'll take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 2.00.

 2             Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I encourage, apart from that, for everyone to

 5     be here in time so that by a late start my bad reputation will not be

 6     further damaged.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 1.37 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Mr. Jordan, prior to the break, we were talking about these

15     marksmen, as you assessed them, that were not proper snipers with --

16     with -- with proper accuracy.

17             Would you agree with me that your assessment included times when

18     the GOFRS personnel were subjected to incoming fire.  That is to say that

19     sometimes the incoming fire upon the GOFRS came from such, as you called

20     them, marksmen, rather than snipers?

21        A.   That would be correct.

22        Q.   And would you agree with me, sir, that there were times that

23     civilians were struck by either sniper or marksmen fire while in the

24     presence of members of the GOFRS, or near to members of the GOFRS,

25     whether armed or unarmed?

Page 1816

 1        A.   Yes.  Because we would station ourselves in areas where --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 3             Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just ask that we break this up because

 5     I believe that the witness, at least in his own mind, has distinguished

 6     someone -- somewhat between what he considered to be a marksmen and what

 7     he considered to be a trained sniper.  So if could we just break up, are

 8     we talking about what he considers to be the marksmen as opposed to

 9     trained snipers?  As I believe [Overlapping speakers].

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think that -- Mr. Ivetic please.

11             MR. IVETIC:

12        Q.   Sir, right now I'm only concerned about marksmen because that's

13     what you're talking about.  I believe that's how you're answering as

14     well but --

15        A.   Understood, sir.

16        Q.   When we are talking about marksmen, do you believe that there are

17     times that civilians were struck by marksmen while nearby GOFRS

18     personnel, irrespective of whether those GOFRS personnel were armed or

19     not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   As you sit here today, you cannot exclude 100 per cent the

22     possibility that the incident that we saw in the video-tape, the

23     unfortunate incident with the mother and her child, was the result of a

24     marksmen who missed one of the armed GOFRS men and struck those two

25     unfortunate victims, can you?

Page 1817

 1        A.   I can say with 100 per cent certainty that whoever shot the child

 2     could not see us at all because we would always station our vehicle under

 3     cover in front of the museum to where we were masked from any gun-fire

 4     and we would only break cover to assist casualties.  So nobody took a

 5     shot at the kid -- nobody took a shot at us and hit the kid.  Not a

 6     possibility.

 7        Q.   And sir, were the GOFRS personnel on scene armed on that day?

 8        A.   Trevor Gibson would have had a 9-millimetre handgun on his hip

 9     and there may have been long guns in the vehicle, which in the video

10     footage you will see none come out.  It was not a situation where

11     gun-fire by us would have been necessary.  There was a Ukrainian APC and

12     a French VAB there on site, which I believe shortly after did engage.  So

13     it was not a case where we would have to do it.  We only did it when we

14     have to, when there was no UNPROFOR to do the job.

15        Q.   Thank you.  One last question on this aspect before going into my

16     last section.  Have the occasions where GOFRS had fired upon, had -- they

17     had taken out their weapons and fired, had those occurred prior to this

18     incident?  Had any of those occurred prior to this incident; that is to

19     say, prior to this incident GOFRS had occasion to fire their weapons in,

20     as you say, a defensive manner?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we could go to paragraph 23 of your

23     statement, sir.  Therein you state that the Bosnian Muslims had mobile

24     mortars stored under cover and pulled out when they had to be used.  Am I

25     correct that such mortars could be placed anywhere in Sarajevo at short

Page 1818

 1     notice, even at civilian positions?

 2        A.   That would be correct.

 3        Q.   Am I correct these same mortars could be easily dismantled and

 4     hidden under cover again after being fired?

 5        A.   That would be correct.

 6        Q.   Now, as a -- based upon your military experience and training,

 7     and especially as a anti-tank specialist, is it standard procedure to try

 8     and triangulate and return fire upon a mortar position that has fired

 9     upon you?

10        A.   Counter-battery fire takes time, training, and talent.  I didn't

11     see a lot of that.

12        Q.   Would you now answer my question, sir:  Would it be standard

13     operating procedure for an opposing party to try to triangulate and

14     return fire upon a mortar position that had fired upon them?

15        A.   In an organised, professional military establishment, yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Turning to paragraph 35 of your statement, and just

17     briefly, here, sir, you are telling us precisely about an incident when

18     you eye-witness that the Bosnian Muslim forces used a portable motor to

19     fire at Serb forces from the hospital building.  Is this the same kind of

20     mobile mortar that we were talking about in the prior paragraph?

21        A.   Yes, it a...

22        Q.   Do you know what kind of calibre and/or range these mobile

23     mortars had?

24        A.   I believe the one I saw fired that night was the 82-millimetre

25     mortar.

Page 1819

 1        Q.   What can you tell us about the accuracy of such mortars?  Would

 2     you accept the possibility that these mortars, fired in the manner that

 3     you saw them being fired by the Bosnian Muslim forces, could miss their

 4     targets and their shells could land elsewhere in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   I described the fire as pointless and inaccurate in my statement,

 6     and I still hold to that now.  Taking a mortar out and slapping it down

 7     on the ground and just firing around is just plain dumb.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, Your Honours.  If you have a question,

10     go ahead.  I'm going to confer with my colleagues for just one second.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps I could ask a clarifying question

12     meanwhile.

13             Do you consider it possible that such inaccurate firing an

14     82-millimetre mortar would result in the mortar landing within the

15     territory of the force that fired it rather than at the other side of the

16     confrontation line?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  The term in military terms is short

18     round.  Short rounds occur more frequently than anybody would like.  They

19     occur when it is hastily set up.  It occurs when there's a -- damage to

20     the charges.  All the powder may not go off and it could literally fall

21     out the end of the tube.  Mortars you have to know what you're doing.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You -- in paragraph 35 you're talking about

23     portable mortar fired from the hospital in late 1994.  Which hospital?

24             THE WITNESS:  It was the -- the one in the compound.  The

25     Kosevo hospital.

Page 1820

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The Kosevo hospital.  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just briefly.

 4        Q.   Another area just to, I think, pull together all your

 5     experiences, sir, and a question that I skipped earlier.

 6        A.   [Indiscernible]

 7        Q.   Am I correct, sir, that in addition to your own training as an

 8     anti-tank specialist that you also in the other wars that you say --

 9     other combat situations that you saw prior to Bosnia, that you also had

10     experience watching either friendly forces or opposing forces utilising

11     such mobile mortars in combat in other situations?

12        A.   I've seen mortars used in combat.  The anti-tank platoon, as in

13     the heavy weapons platoon in the United States Military, the other

14     complementary platoon is the mortar platoon, and any senior NCO winds up

15     learning both.

16        Q.   Mr. Jordan, I have completed you in the time period that the

17     Judges have -- I quickly asked you questions within the time-period given

18     to me.  I thank you, sir, for coming here today and for your efforts to

19     try and clarify your testimony.  Thank you.

20        A.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  I put on the record that you

22     took even less time than was granted to you.

23             Mr. Weber, if you're going to do the same, but ...

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But before giving an opportunity, Judge Moloto would

Page 1821

 1     have one or more questions for the witness.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, I'm going to be very quick, Mr. Jordan.

 3             Mr. Jordan, at page 65, lines 11 and 14 of the transcript, you

 4     were asked if on your first trip to Sarajevo you organised that

 5     personally and privately through the Bosnian Embassy.

 6             I was going to ask you, Bosnian Embassy to which country.

 7     However, at page 66, lines 7 and 9, you agreed with counsel for the

 8     Defence as to what you mean by Bosnian Embassy.  I still don't understand

 9     what you mean by that.  And there you said -- you said -- the question

10     was:

11             "And, sir, both you -- both and you and have I used the term

12     Bosnian Embassy -- am I correct when you use that term you imply the

13     forces that were applied with Mr. Izetbegovic?"

14             THE WITNESS:  That would be correct, sir.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, I don't know what you mean by that.  The

16     normal understanding I have of the word "embassy" is an embassy is an

17     embassy of a country in another country.  Now Mr. Izetbegovic was a

18     president.  He couldn't be an ambassador.  So I'm not quite sure what you

19     mean here when you say forces -- forces that were applied with.  You

20     know, first of all, an embassy is not a force.

21             THE WITNESS:  Oh, okay.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You know, it's an office in another country

23     representing its country.  What do you mean by that?

24             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I actually don't have the line you're talking

25     about in front of me.

Page 1822

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, page 66 -- unfortunately, it's badly

 2     recorded.  Page 66, lines 7 to 9.  It says:

 3             "And sir, both and you and have I used," you know.

 4             I suppose the intention was to say:  Sir, both you and I have

 5     used the term "Bosnian Embassy," and am I correct when I say you use the

 6     term to imply the forces that were applied with Mr. Izetbegovic.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  When I mean "Bosnian embassy," I mean

 8     the BiH embassy; what was functioning as their embassy in the New York

 9     City at the time.  That was my first meeting with the [indiscernible].

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the question to my -- to the first question

11     would have solved the question.  Okay.  It's the embassy in the US.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Weber, if you perform as well as

15     Mr. Ivetic did, we will even be able to conclude the testimony of this

16     witness by the end of today's session.

17             Please proceed.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Weber:

19        Q.   Mr. Jordan, with respect to the members of GOFRS, were there

20     volunteers who came from countries other than the United States?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What countries?

23        A.   We had folks from Canada, England, Scotland, Lebanon, France --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you lower your voice.  No problem to consult

25     with Mr. Lukic, but do it on a low voice.

Page 1823

 1             Please proceed, Witness.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Canada, England, Scotland, Lebanon, France, Spain,

 3     and one from the Czech Republic.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   At page 82, you stated:

 6             "Casualties on the Sarajevo fire department from gun-fire

 7     exceeded 20 per cent of the fire department."

 8             Were these Bosnian government fire-fighters armed when they were

 9     injured?

10        A.   No, they were not armed.

11        Q.   And did this, if I understand your testimony correctly, did this

12     occur at a time prior to when you or any other members of GOFRS even

13     carried any arms?

14        A.   That would be correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I think that's what the witness told us

16     already, isn't it?

17             MR. WEBER:  I just wanted --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We only took arms once.  So therefore there was no

19     need to put that question again.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   In paragraph 23, you describe an occasion in July 1995 which you

23     were asked about where you suspect the mortar fire coming from the

24     Bosnian Muslim side.  Were there any other occasions besides this one

25     incident in July 1995 that you believe Bosnian Muslim forces fired upon

Page 1824

 1     you?

 2        A.   Only one occasion.  Some desultory small arms fire, but no heavy

 3     weapons fire.  The violence in and around Sarajevo was basically shoveled

 4     downhill and spooned uphill.

 5        Q.   What do you mean by that?

 6        A.   I mean, there are a lot less guns in the city than there were

 7     around the city so -- and the confrontation lines really weren't going to

 8     change, so ... it was just a question of where all the guns were and

 9     there were more around the town than in it.

10        Q.   And who were the ones around the town that were using or in your

11     analogy shovelling downhill?

12        A.   Well, that would be the BSA forces.

13        Q.   Going back to that same paragraph where you discuss the mobile

14     mortars, and counsel also brought up the incident in late 1994 in

15     paragraph 35 where you saw it at the Kosevo hospital.  Were there any

16     other occasions that you saw the mobile mortars besides that occasion at

17     the hospital?

18        A.   No, it was just that one occasion that I saw it.

19        Q.   How often did you go to this hospital, the Kosevo hospital?

20        A.   We -- in the course of moving all about town responding to

21     shootings and shellings and some ordinary medical evacuations we would be

22     just about any place in town on a weekly basis.

23             MR. WEBER:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 1825

 1             Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I briefly apologise.  I have been asked to convey a

 3     request from Mr. Mladic that he wished to address two specific questions

 4     to this witness himself personally.  I don't know if this -- if Your

 5     Honours are open to doing that.  I'm conveying the request on behalf of

 6     Mr. Mladic.  Thank you.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is not allowed to put questions himself

 9     to this witness, but if there are any questions he would convey to you,

10     then, of course, we will consider whether we grant you a couple of

11     minutes more.

12             MR. IVETIC:  One moment.  I might be able to assist if I can go

13     closer to Mr. Mladic to try to talk to him.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And switch your microphones off and lower the

15     voices.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please sit down, Mr. Mladic.

18             Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, Mr. Mladic again has asked me to

20     convey that he has approximately 30 words that he would like to read out

21     for Your Honours, and it has to do with the accuracy of so-called smart

22     technology weapons as opposed to the conventional weapons that were used

23     in Sarajevo.  I'm at your disposal, obviously, for --

24     [overlapping speakers].

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is not allowed to read out such a

Page 1826

 1     statement at this moment.  Of course, you know exactly if it's a relevant

 2     matter how counsel can address the Chamber on these matters, either

 3     through filings or through cross-examination of future witnesses or, if

 4     it ever comes to that stage, in the presentation of your own case.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I have advised him so.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, if there's a question that Mr. Mladic would

 7     like to put to the witness, he can put it through you, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  As I said before that we would give you a couple of

 9     minutes for that.

10             Then this ...

11             Mr. Jordan.

12             THE WITNESS:  Sir?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'd like to continue with the

14     proceedings.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordan, this then concludes your evidence.

17             May I take it, Mr. Ivetic, that you had no questions for

18     yourself.  You had no questions you had on your list apart from

19     [overlapping speakers] --

20             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honours.  I did not have any further

21     questions for the witness.  I'd already excused.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll wait for 30 seconds to see whether there

23     is any specific question you'd like to put on behalf of Mr. Mladic.

24             Mr. Jordan, if there are no questions, and we have to wait for 30

25     seconds to know that, I already would like to thank you very much for

Page 1827

 1     having coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions,

 2     perhaps minus one, that were put by the parties and by the Bench, and I

 3     already waiting for the outcome of this consultation.  I would already

 4     wish you a safe return home anyhow today.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, any further question?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing further.

 9             Then the witness is excused and may leave the courtroom.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn -- we adjourn for the day, and we'll

12     resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 29th of August, at 9.30 in the morning,

13     in this same courtroom, I.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

16                           August, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.