1 Wednesday, 29 August 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
12 MS. BIBLES: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, we are prepared to
13 call our first witness, Fejzija Hadzic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No protective measures?
15 MS. BIBLES: No protective measures, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, while we're waiting to bring the
18 witness into the courtroom, I can advise you that based on the Trial
19 Court's ruling on the adjudicated facts, the Prosecution does not intend
20 to lead evidence that has been covered extensively through adjudicated
21 fact 731 through 746.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Mladic consults with counsel, if he takes off
25 his earphones, then there's no need to speak as loudly as he does,
1 because that disturbs, to some extent, the order in this courtroom.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I hear you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hadzic, before you give evidence, the
6 Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed
7 out to you.
8 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: FEJZIJA HADZIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hadzic. Please be seated.
14 Mr. Hadzic, I do not know what you are putting on your table, but
15 if you want to consult any piece of paper, then please ask for permission
17 You'll now be examined by Ms. Bibles. Ms. Bibles is counsel for
18 the Prosecution.
19 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. And to answer the Court's
20 questions, I believe the witness was retrieving his eyeglasses.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's very good. Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I can't see it from here.
24 Examination by Ms. Bibles:
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Could you please tell us your name for the record.
3 A. I am Fejzija Hadzic, born on the 1st of January, 1947. My
4 father's name is Fejzo, my mother's name is Asaja, and I was born near
6 Q. And which village in Kalinovik did you live in before the war?
7 A. Mjehovina Kalinovik.
8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you have provided witness statements to the Bosnian
9 authorities and to ICTY regarding your experiences during the war?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, could I ask that page 1 of 65 ter
12 28354 be brought to our screens.
13 Q. As to the statements, have you had an opportunity to review the
14 statement you made to the Bosnian authorities in 1992?
15 A. Yes, I did have such an opportunity. And the statement does
16 reflect what you said, and the signature on the statement is mine.
17 Q. I'd like you to look at the screen and specifically looking at
18 the handwritten document. Do you recognise this document based on your
19 view of this page?
20 A. Yes, I do. I do recognise this document. I read it. I looked
21 through it, and I signed it my own hand.
22 Q. What is this document?
23 A. This is a statement that I gave in 1992 to the Bosnian
24 authorities, to the centre for investigating war crimes and genocide
25 against the Muslims in Zenica. I testified about what happened while I
1 was in camp --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the dates.
3 MS. BIBLES:
4 Q. Was this a statement that you gave on the 20th of October of
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could we now turn to the last page of the document. I believe
8 it's page 4 on the B/C/S version.
9 Could you look at this page and tell us whether you recognise
10 your signature on this page?
11 A. Yes, this is my signature on this page.
12 Q. Is the information contained in this statement accurate?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If we were to ask you about the matters contained in this
15 statement today, would your answers today be the same as they were in
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, could the first page of 65 ter 28353
19 please be brought to our screens.
20 Q. You also provided a statement to ICTY?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review the statement that you gave
23 to ICTY?
24 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity to review it, and I noticed that
25 there's a mistake. Instead of the 31st of January, 1991, it should say
1 31st of January, 1999.
2 Q. And is this the document that you're looking at, at the screen
3 right now?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if we could now go to page 6 in both versions of this
7 Do you recognise your signature on this -- on the last page of
8 this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, in fact, did you sign or initial every page of this
12 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
13 Q. Aside from the date of -- on the first page, is this statement
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
17 truthfulness and accuracy of both statements?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, at this point the Prosecution tenders
20 65 ter 28353 and 28354 for admission, pursuant to 92 ter.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
22 No objections.
23 Madam Registrar, 28353 ICTY witness statement,
24 31st of January, 1999.
25 THE REGISTRAR: 28353 becomes Exhibit P138, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P138 is admitted into evidence.
2 Then the next one.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28354 becomes Exhibit P139,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P139 is admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Your Honours, with your leave, I'll slowly review a brief summary
9 of Mr. Hadzic's written evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You've explained to Mr. Hadzic what the purpose of
11 it is?
12 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, as Mr. Hadzic has said, he is from
15 Kalinovik municipality which he explains in this statement is also the
16 home municipality of the accused, Ratko Mladic. Mr. Hadzic is a Muslim
17 and as the war started he was the director of the public utilities
18 company for Kalinovik.
19 Despite the assurances for safety that was given to the Muslim
20 community and Mr. Hadzic during the time that the ethnic cleansing began,
21 Mr. Hadzic and other Muslim men from the municipality were arrested on or
22 around the 25th of June, 1992. They were first held in the elementary
23 school in town, and then, on the 6th of July, they were moved to an
24 ammunition warehouse. They were held there through and until the first
25 part of August 1992.
1 During the first weeks of August 1992, groups of Muslim detainees
2 were taken out from the detention facility and many were not seen again.
3 On the 5th of August, 1992, Mr. Hadzic, along with 23 other
4 Muslim men, were taken from the facility. They were beaten.
5 Mr. Hadzic's hands were bound with wire and their valuables were taken
6 from them.
7 Mr. Hadzic, along with the others, were lined up and shot as a
8 group. The bodies who had been shot, including Mr. Hadzic, were moved to
9 a stable and lit on fire. Mr. Hadzic, although badly injured, managed to
10 survive and escape.
11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you describe that life became intolerable in
12 Kalinovik as a result of a campaign of Serb intimidation. You describe
13 that a group of Chetniks came to the area. Was -- were they part of this
14 intimidation campaign?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, it's always good to know exactly where
16 the summary ends.
17 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Because the disciplinary is not evidence, and then
19 you move to the examination of the witness.
20 So you have now started questioning the witness just to be clear
21 on the record.
22 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honours. I'm sorry. I will clarify for
23 the record I have now completed the summary.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. BIBLES:
1 Q. Mr. Hadzic, could you describe for us the group of Chetniks that
2 came to your area in May of 1992.
3 A. On that day, I was at work. At some point in the afternoon, a
4 large group of Chetniks arrived from Mjehovina led by Pero Elez. They
5 started yelling all about town and shooting and so on. Since we are only
6 about ten minutes away from Kalinovik, there is only a hill between us, I
7 went home so that we could leave the village. In the earlier evening,
8 Grujo Lalovic, the president of the municipal Executive Council and
9 president of the Crisis Staff and of the SDS, he addressed us, and he
10 guaranteed our personal safety and the safety of our property. He said
11 that nothing would happen to us, that they exercise their own influence,
12 that the Chetniks left Kalinovik and that this would not happen again.
13 And he insisted that they be given guarantees from Vucurevic from
14 Trebinje, because it became part of Trebinje through a unilateral
15 decision in 1991.
16 Now that I'm talking about all of these meetings, may I tell you
17 a few more things --
18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if we could stop for a second, I want to --
19 JUDGE ORIE: And could I also ask you to slow down your speed of
20 speech so that the interpreters are able to follow.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES:
23 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I want to go back and ask some very specific
25 You described that the group of Chetniks were led by Pero Elez?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did they come -- what date did they come to Kalinovik the
3 first time?
4 A. It was the 5th or 6th of May. I cannot tell you exactly. They
5 came in smaller groups even before that, but they did not behave the way
6 they did on that day, on that 5th or 6th of May.
7 Q. Mr. Hadzic, is this the same Pero Elez who you saw on the
8 5th of August?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This was the same group that came and took you away on the
11 5th of August?
12 A. That is what I assume, because they were headed by Pero Elez that
13 is why I assume that all of them were his men.
14 Q. Can you tell us during this time-period in -- between May and
15 June of 1992, were there particular Muslims for your community who would
16 meet with different people about this issue of safety?
17 A. Yes. There were meetings. And I wanted to tell you about that.
18 There was this meeting towards the end of April that was also organised
19 by Grujo Lalovic and the commander of the tactical group, Colonel
20 Ratko Bundalo who invited all the representatives of Muslim villages to a
21 meeting at the municipal hall and he presented to us the following:
22 He said that we should not be afraid because even before that --
23 Q. Mr. --
24 A. Even before that, we had addressed the municipal assembly asking
25 them to allow us to leave voluntarily. Again, they tried to reassure us
1 to provide security guarantees to us but at this meeting they said that
2 most probably after that meeting, we, all the Muslims, all the Bosniaks,
3 that is, young ones would have to report to the police station in order
4 to be recorded.
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, to go forward in time, could you tell us the names of
6 the Muslims in your community who would meet with the Serbs on behalf of
7 the Muslim community.
8 A. It was Tahir Panjeta and Sacko Keso. I cannot recall all the
9 names of the people from all the villages who attended the meeting at the
10 municipality that day.
11 Q. But they would have been the individuals who met with the Serb
12 leadership periodically, representing the Muslim community?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I want to turn your attention now to battery-level weapons which
15 were pointed at a Muslim village in May of 1992.
16 In your statement, you describe that members of the Muslim
17 community complained directly to Ratko Mladic about these weapons. Can
18 you tell us where Ratko Mladic was when that discussion took place?
19 A. Well, look. The next day after that meeting, between
20 Ratko Mladic and the representatives of Golubici, well, Ratko's relatives
21 from that village worked in my company, in the company that I worked in,
22 that is, and they told me that that day Ratko Mladic and Velibor Ostojic
23 arrived by helicopter and they called upon the Muslims of Golubici to
24 discuss the situation and to reach some kind of agreement, and the
25 Muslims complained about these batteries being pointed at Golubici and
1 that is what they minded.
2 The next day, this weaponry was removed and soon after that these
3 artillery weapons were returned to the very same positions and pointed at
4 the village of Golubici, and this village of Golubici was shelled, and
5 Bovice as well in August, and in August it was torched as well.
6 Q. Going back to the meeting that the villagers had with
7 General Mladic, are you familiar with the message that Ratko Mladic had
8 for the villagers on that day in May?
9 A. Well, this is the way it was. He said to them that
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina would be a Serb state and that the laws of this Serb
11 state had to be observed in it.
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I would like to turn your attention now to the
13 mosques of Kalinovik.
14 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, I note we have adjudicated fact
16 Q. Could you tell us whether you're aware of who destroyed the four
17 mosques in Kalinovik?
18 A. All four mosques in Kalinovik were used before the war except for
19 one of them, the one in Velisi [phoen]. From 1991 to 1995 all three
20 mosques in the territory of the municipality of Kalinovik were torched.
21 The minaret was blown up and the one in the village --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the village. The
23 name of the village --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and the one in the neighbouring
25 village was also destroyed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: One minute, Mr. Hadzic. The question and I would
2 like you to focus your answers on what is asked is: Who destroyed the
3 four mosques. Not about how they were destroyed, but who did it.
4 Whether you have any knowledge about that.
5 Can you answer that question?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have an answer. It was done
7 by the Serb army.
8 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I next want to turn to your time when you were
10 detained in the Kalinovik elementary school and then in the ammunition
12 Could you tell us the ethnicity of the guards who kept you in
13 those detention facilities?
14 A. At both places, all the guards were of Serb ethnicity. All of
16 Q. Did the guards wear uniforms?
17 A. Yes, olive-green-grey uniforms, military uniforms. And also
18 long-barrelled weapons.
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I want you to think in your mind to the first few
20 days of August of 1992. During that time-period while you were in the
21 warehouse, did you hear automatic gun-fire?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And could you describe for us whether you know which day in
24 August this was?
25 A. It was the 1st of August. It was a Saturday, when, in the
1 evening, the village of Jarise [phoen] and the Karaula hamlet were
2 torched and when all the Muslim people from this village were taken away
3 and detained at the Kalinovik elementary school.
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I now want you to think about the day of the
5 5th of August, 1992.
6 The men who came to take you away, can you tell us how many were
7 in that group?
8 A. This is a day that was very difficult and that I do not like to
9 remember. Pero Elez and Milenko Fukovic, nicknamed Njeko [phoen], and
10 also a man named Vukadin [phoen], who was our guard, they walked in, they
11 called out the names of 12 prisoners and told them to go out. There were
12 about three or four of them. They wore camouflage uniforms. After that,
13 they took these 12 men away. After a while they returned yet again.
14 Again, they took three men out. They called out their names and they
15 said to the rest of us that we should get ready to go to the KP Dom Foca
16 for an exchange.
17 We actually believed them. We packed some of the things that we
18 had with us and then they came back again and told us that we couldn't
19 take anything along, and they said that a group of young men would have
20 their hands tied so that they could not escape. Then they started tying
21 their hands. Then it came to be my turn. They used a wire to tie my
22 hands and they told us to go out.
23 As we were leaving the building, I was hit badly by a wooden
24 stick -- with a wooden stick and then we got into a TAM 110 vehicle, a
25 uniformed soldier was with us who said that we were going to Foca and
1 that we would be exchanged.
2 Q. Mr. -- Mr. --
3 A. Then --
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if I can stop you for just a moment.
5 Could you describe for us -- you've said it was a TAM 110
6 vehicle. Could you describe for us whether that was a civilian vehicle?
7 A. Military vehicle and military drivers. All the drivers who drove
8 the vehicles wore military uniforms. There was one just civilian vehicle
9 driven by a Muslim. He was the first one so that if the road had been
10 mined, he would be the one to be blown up.
11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you've said this is a difficult day to remember. I
12 would like to take you towards the end of that day and direct your
13 attention to a couple of questions.
14 When the shooting started against you and the group of men that
15 you were with, what types of weapons were used?
16 A. Automatic weapons, automatic rifles. There were bursts of
17 gun-fire fired at us.
18 Q. Who was doing the shooting?
19 A. There were about five or six uniformed soldiers to our left,
20 since we all stood one by one in a line, one after another, and they were
21 there, they shot us. I pretended to be dead but I was just wounded.
22 Before that, they took out four members of the Suljic family. They tied
23 our hands and ordered them to throw us into a barn. They threw me in
24 there as well. I tried to seek shelter so that I wouldn't be covered by
25 all the dead bodies, but then they killed those three men as well. And
1 then they wanted to set fire to all of us, and I saw the fourth Suljic
2 killed by a burst of gun-fire and then they poured gasoline all over and
3 set fire to it.
4 When I heard that there were vehicles there, two more truck-loads
5 of prisoners, that they continued, I managed to run out. Although I had
6 been wounded in the leg, I managed to run out and I fell into a brook. I
7 don't know how long I lay there, and I managed to cut the wire somehow
8 and I tried to save myself and I moved away. And I knew that in Huse
9 there were Muslim refugees. I walked all day and finally joined the
10 other refugees. That is where I was given first aid. And afterwards, I
11 ultimately met up with my family and continued my own life, traumatised
12 as I am to this very day after all these things that happened to me.
13 Let's me just explain this. After that, we met another man. I
14 assume he is Adem Hadzic. They killed him as well. So there were 24
15 bodies in that barn that were burned and no remains can be found, because
16 in 1999 exhumations were carried out and bones were found --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Can I stop you there. Of course, you are telling us
18 a lot about what we have read already in your statement. Ms. Bibles put
19 some additional questions to you. The last one was who was doing the
21 Now, you told us by far more. Could you please focus on what
22 Ms. Bibles asks you. And, Ms. Bibles, could you please -- if the witness
23 strays away from your question. Because much of what you told us, of
24 course, we have read that, and the summary has been read already to the
25 public, and we want to hear as much evidence as possible.
1 Ms. Bibles.
2 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. The men who were murdered on the 5th of August, are those men
4 named in the statement that you gave to the Bosnian authorities?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, that would be on pages 3 and 4 of
7 the English version of P139.
8 And Your Honours I have no further questions for this witness.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you sit down, Madam Bibles, can I just ask
10 a question. Was your question answered as to who was doing the shooting?
11 MS. BIBLES: Yes, I believe he testified --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: We were told that these were about five or six
13 uniformed soldiers. I thought when you said "who" you probably were
14 asking for names, if they were known.
15 MS. BIBLES: I can clarify that question, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
17 MS. BIBLES:
18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, did you know any of the men who were doing the
20 A. I didn't know any of the men who were doing the shooting. We
21 only knew Pero Elez who was with them.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. BIBLES: I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
25 Who is it that is going to cross-examine? Mr. Stojanovic, will
1 it be you?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic will now cross-examine you.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, you'll find him to your left, is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, any indication as far as the time is concerned?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have already consulted my
7 learned friend, and I announced that my cross-examination will last some
8 40 minutes or so.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'm Miodrag Stojanovic. I come from
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, just like you. My impression is that both you
14 and I speak very fast, therefore I am going to ask you to slow down a
15 little for the sake of the interpretation. Is that okay?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You will then do the same, Mr. Stojanovic, I take
18 it, because you said you're both quick speakers, so your both slowing
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, before I start putting my questions to you. On behalf of
22 Mr. Mladic's Defence team, it is my duty to express my sincere regret for
23 everything that you experienced, for your traumas that you have just told
24 us about and mentioned in your statements.
25 Allow me now to put some questions to you.
1 A. Go ahead.
2 Q. Will you tell the Trial Chamber if you ever served in the army,
3 and if you did where was that?
4 A. Yes. I spent 18 months in Slovenia in Postojna. I was a
5 communications guy in the anti-aircraft artillery.
6 Q. Please tell us when was that and who was the commander of that
8 A. It was in 1966 and 1967. The battery commander was
9 Simo [indiscernible], a captain. I can't tell you more than that after
10 such a long time. And after that, he was replaced by a Macedonian,
11 Lazo Dukovski [phoen], who was also a captain.
12 Q. Thank you. I asked you this because I realised that you had
13 training in artillery; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, in anti-aircraft artillery.
15 Q. When war broke out, you were in Kalinovik. You were the CEO of
16 the local public utility company; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At that time, were you politically engaged?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you have an occasion to meet Ratko Mladic when you were
21 younger, at school or as an adolescent?
22 A. I remember him vaguely as a child when he played football in
23 Pofalici. After that, after elementary school, he went for further
24 education. I stayed in Kalinovik. We saw each other from time to time
25 just in passing. I would say that I -- I know him just from passing.
1 Q. Do you agree that before the war you never heard anything bad
2 about Ratko Mladic?
3 A. Yes, I agree with that: I didn't.
4 Q. Thank you. In the summer of 1992, and that's when the tragic
5 events happened, as you told us, you personally did not have an occasion
6 to see Mr. Mladic; are you [as interpreted] right?
7 A. I didn't see him then.
8 Q. The information that you received about the conversations that
9 Mr. Mladic held with the villagers of Golubic is second-hand information.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the names of the
11 person from whom he heard information.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Just for the record, could you repeat the names of the two people
14 from whom you received the information, but slow down, please.
15 A. Marko Mladic and Cedo Coso who were employees at my company.
16 Q. Thank you. According to what the two of them told you, the
17 request of the villagers of Golubici was to remove the -- or, rather, to
18 change the direction of the artillery, which faced the village of
20 A. No. It wasn't to change the direction but to remove the battery
21 from that position.
22 Q. And that was done; right?
23 A. Yes. But only temporary, for a few days, for a couple of days.
24 Q. Let me ask you something that I learned while I was preparing for
25 this case and I couldn't find that in any of the statements used in this
1 courtroom. That's why I want to ask you whether it is correct that at
2 one point you were brought to the public security station in Kalinovik in
3 the year 1992 because they wanted to check a suspicion according to which
4 you were one of the organisers of the Bosniak population resistance?
5 A. Yes, that did happen. I went there. I spent a couple of hours
6 at the public security station where I was interviewed and then I was
7 released and I continued working. I have to say that I never
8 participated in the organisation of any resistance. If that had been the
9 case, I would not have stayed in Kalinovik.
10 Q. So it was established that the suspicions were -- were unfounded
11 and false?
12 A. Yes, and I continued working.
13 Q. So you continued working in your company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Until the 25th of June, 1992, and you understand why I mentioned
16 that date, you were not militarily engaged; right?
17 A. No, I was not.
18 Q. On that day, if I'm not mistaken, if -- and if I studied the
19 documentation well, you were given work obligation and then you were
20 arrested by the police officers from Kalinovik; am I right?
21 A. Yes. When we all reported to the Secretariat for
22 National Defence for work obligation we were surrounded by the reserve
23 and active-duty police officers. They loaded us onto cars and arrested
24 us, and after that a lot more people were brought from their homes so
25 that that evening there were about 60 of us in the elementary school in
1 the camp.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that according to your best recollection
3 the police officers who were present when you were arrested and when you
4 were brought to the elementary school and whom you remembered were Milan
5 Peric and Saso Doder?
6 A. Yes. They arrived in a TAM 110. Peric parked the car and Doder
7 orders us to get into the car. Gojko Lalovic, the chief of the civilian
8 protection imposed that. He insisted that a meeting should be held and
9 that we should not be arrested. However, this must have been
10 prearranged. We had to be called to the [indiscernible] and that was the
11 motive for our arrest.
12 Q. Thank you. Please. Let's slow down. Please.
13 The police officers and the cars that you mentioned, they took
14 you to the elementary school in Kalinovik; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And there you were taken over by some other police officers and
17 they were the ones who searched all of you who had been brought in?
18 A. There must have been some 10 or 15 reserve police officers who
19 took turns. They worked in shift as they guarded us in the elementary
21 Q. According to your statements and your testimony in other cases,
22 you remember that among those police officers, the employees of the
23 police station in Kalinovik, were Aleksandar Cerovina, Predo Terzic and
24 Dusko Mandic; right?
25 A. I remember that those were the men who searched us at the
1 elementary school.
2 Q. While you were in the elementary school -- I apologise.
3 A. When they loaded us on to the car and when they brought us to the
4 school, they were the ones who searched us at the entrance of the gym and
5 they took any sharp objects from us. Those three. The others guarded
6 us. That's why I'm saying that at least 10 or 15 reserve police officers
7 were engaged in the guard duty, but they worked in shifts.
8 Q. Thank you for the explanation. This is precisely what I wanted
9 to hear from you.
10 Those persons, those individuals who guarded you, were also
11 police officers; right?
12 A. Yes, they were reserve policemen. All that happened at the
13 elementary school. They were other persons in the depot.
14 Q. A few days later, the police officers whom you have mentioned
15 transferred you to the depot which had been transformed?
16 A. Let me put it that way. Yes, on that day, three military cars
17 arrived and stopped in front of the elementary school. There was some
18 uniformed people in the cars, and the reserve police officers escorted us
19 to the depot where we were taken over by active-duty officers in uniform.
20 Q. Thank you. Let's stop here and let's clarify one or two things.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, active-duty officers. Were they still police
22 officers or were they army officers?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active police officers who served
24 in Kalinovik.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the
3 Trial Chamber for the assistance. I will go along these lines.
4 Q. When you arrived at the depot, according to your best
5 recollection, somebody was there and introduced himself to you as the
6 officer serving at that facility --
7 THE INTERPRETER: And could the counsel please repeat the name of
8 the person.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the name, Mr. Stojanovic,
10 you just mentioned, the officer that introduced himself.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I will repeat slowly and then I will ask you about that man.
13 The person who was there waiting for you who was in charge of the
14 depot, according to him, was Djordje Slavaskraba [as interpreted]; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I should
17 spell the name because it seems that the name has not been recorded
18 properly. I agree, it's a bit unusual. With your leave --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. You don't need permission to do that.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A-s-k-r-a-b-a D-o-r-d-i-s-l-a-v.
22 I hope this was of some assistance to everybody. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you check on the transcript that it's right.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have checked. Yes, it's
25 correct. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, did you know the man from before?
4 A. I knew Djordje Askraba from before because for a while, he was a
5 police officer in Kalinovik and a few years before the war, he was
6 transferred to Sarajevo. He was retired then. I know his wife who hails
7 from the same village. There is a relationship between my father-in-law
8 and his father.
9 Q. Am I right in saying that he is Grujo's son?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that he is about your age?
12 A. Yes, more or less.
13 Q. Once again, I would kindly ask you to confirm that, to your best
14 recollection, he was also a police officer?
15 A. Yes. He was a retired policeman. And at that facility he
16 guarded us not wearing a police uniform but a military uniform.
17 Q. Thank you. And let's -- let me now direct your attention to the
18 time that you spent at that facility. Please bear with me, Your Honours.
19 To your best recollection, how many rooms were there where you
20 were accommodated at the depot?
21 A. We were in a large room. Before the war, it was a store room for
22 explosives of the Yugoslav People's Army. It was about 10 to 16 metres
23 long, and on three sides, there were wooden pallets on the concrete
24 floor. We did not have any beds or bedding. We had to sleep on those
25 wooden pallets on the floor.
1 Q. Would you agree with me that at one point in time it was possible
2 for you, it was made possible for you to visit your family and for
3 blankets to be provided to you to make it easier for you?
4 A. Yes, that was the second day, the following day when we could
5 meet our families, but it had been forbidden in the barracks.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, your question was translated as
7 whether it was made possible for the witness to visit his family. Is it
8 for the witness to visit his family or for the family to visit the
10 What exactly was your question?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I saw those
12 lines. They are lines 16 and 17.
13 Q. And my question was: Did they allow your families to visit you
14 in that facility?
15 A. Yes. Our families, all the families, visited us.
16 JUDGE ORIE: This has been clarified.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Having been in that gun powder depot for several days, do you
20 have the opportunity of meeting Mr. Askraba?
21 A. Yes. Every day -- in fact, we weren't there for over a few days.
22 We spent over 30 days in that facility. We met Djordje Askraba who
23 always told us that he was responsible for everything and that we should
24 contact him if we needed something. The guards in military uniforms
25 would contact him. It was possible he would provide us with some food.
1 If not, nothing happened. During those 30 days, nothing much was
2 delivered to the gun powder depot, nothing much apart from these
4 Q. The guards in the depot, did you know them?
5 A. Yes, I knew all of them, apart from two men from Sarajevo and two
6 from Foca. I knew everyone else because I had worked and co-operated
7 with them. I had socialised with them. But while I was in the camp,
8 they no longer knew me.
9 Q. At any point in time, were you in a position to get to know the
10 person you called Mr. Bundalo in the examination-in-chief?
11 A. I can't remember that I ever stated that I saw Mr. Bundalo in the
12 depot because we only saw the person who introduced himself as the
13 assistant commander for security, but I don't remember Ratko Bundalo ever
14 appearing there.
15 Q. Perhaps this is a good opportunity for me to ask you to tell the
16 Court whether you know what sort of the duties at the time Mr. Bundalo
18 A. When I was a free man, I know that he was the local commander
19 because he had come from Rijeka. Rade Pavlovic was replaced. He was the
20 commander of the military -- 27 -- 27 up until that point in time and
21 Ratko Bundalo, who was either a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel at the
22 time, replaced him.
23 Q. Would you agree that the person you have called Ratko Bundalo is
24 not from Kalinovik, he wasn't born there, and he didn't previously live
1 A. No, the first time I heard of him was when he returned to the
2 camp and there were problems with the water supply and that's when I
3 heard him introduce himself as the commander. That's when I came to know
5 Q. Do you know which specific military unit he was a member of?
6 A. Well, it was the Kalinovik group. I don't know what it's called.
7 I wouldn't go into those establishment details. I know that he was the
8 commander for places called Trnovo, Kalinovik and Foca. Because that's
9 why the local Bosnian authorities sentenced him to 21 years in prison, in
10 fact. It was on the basis of that position that he held.
11 Q. So that is, in fact, the question I want to put to you. It has
12 to do with that matter.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, perhaps this
14 would be a good time to have a break, because I will be moving onto
15 certain questions that are related to the witness's answers.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And how much time would you need after the break,
17 Mr. Stojanovic?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] As I said, Your Honours, I
19 believe that I will need the same amount of time that I have already used
20 up to complete my cross-examination of the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That would be close to one hour. I think you said
22 you need 40 minutes, which is an extension of 20 minutes. Apart from
23 that, approximately 60 or 70 per cent of your questions are just seeking
24 confirmation of what is already either in the statement of the witness or
25 what he testified during examination-in-chief.
1 So would you please try to focus on what really is needed in
2 cross-examination, and I'll consult with my colleagues how much time you
3 have for that.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber expects you to use not more than
6 20 minutes after the break. And please focus on matters in dispute and
7 matters of relevance and importance.
8 We -- I would first like to have the witness escorted out of the
10 We take a break of 20 minutes. Mr. Hadzic, could you follow the
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to
15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
17 [The accused not present]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber establishes that Mr. Mladic did not --
19 is not in the courtroom at this moment.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, we were informed that Mr. Mladic reported not to
21 feel well. Could you update the Chamber.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We have just
23 left the room in which we were with Mr. Mladic, and we tried to deal with
24 the issue, and Mr. Mladic was very upset. He was red in the face. He
25 was very excited. And my colleague, Mr. Ivetic, has remained with him,
1 but I entered the courtroom as the trial was scheduled to commence again.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if someone doesn't appear in court, a few
3 questions arise.
4 The first one is whether he waives his right to be present. It's
5 simply either you do or you do not.
6 Then the second issue, if he waives his right to be present, we
7 could finish the last 20 minutes of this witness and then reconsider the
8 matter, because we then have to take a break anyhow for the preparation
9 of the protective measures for the next witness. So that's the first
10 issue: Waiver, yes or no.
11 Second issue. If Mr. Mladic would not waive his right to be
12 present, then in order not to continue the proceedings, a medical
13 condition should be established which disenables him to be present in
14 court. This Chamber has had some experiences over the last few months
15 with Mr. Mladic reporting that he felt unable to be in court, which was
16 not always confirmed at a later stage by medical reports which said that
17 he really wasn't.
18 So we will be rather strict on that.
19 But the first question is - and I'd like you to raise that, and
20 if you need a few minutes for that, we'll take a short break - whether
21 Mr. Mladic would waive his right, to start with, for the next 20 minutes
22 to finish the cross-examination and perhaps re-examination of the
23 witness, Mr. Hadzic.
24 Could you try to find out?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave,
1 I'm informing you that when I left the room in which I was, together with
2 Mr. Mladic, he didn't waive that right. He made certain suggestions with
3 regard to the end of the cross-examination of this witness, and if I am
4 to tell you whether anything has changed in the meantime, I would have to
5 go back and see what sort of state Mr. Mladic is in.
6 All I have done is convey my impression of the situation to you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that he didn't waive his right is --
8 doesn't mean that he finally will decide not to waive his right.
9 You said he made certain suggestions with regard to the end of
10 the cross-examination of this witness. Of course, if they are within the
11 realm of client/counsel privilege, you shouldn't say anything about it.
12 If, however, they are of a more practical nature, the Chamber would like
13 to be informed about what these suggestions were.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. This is
15 confidential information and has to do with the client/counsel privilege.
16 It has to do with the further cross-examination of this witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that Mr. Mladic was able to give
18 instructions as to the last part of the cross-examination of this
20 We'll ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: To allow you to take instructions, as far as waiver
23 is concerned, Mr. Stojanovic, we'll take a break for three minutes.
24 --- Break taken at 11.02 a.m.
25 [The accused entered court]
1 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber establishes that Mr. Mladic is in the
4 Could the witness be brought in.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, once the witness is -- has entered the courtroom,
6 you have your 20 minutes to conclude your cross-examination.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hadzic, Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his
9 cross-examination. Listen carefully to his questions.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Sir, this is my cue. You remembered -- you also mentioned trials
13 before the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina when we started.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Will you agree with me that in several cases before the Court of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina you testified in relation to all of these things that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Will you confirm to the Court that you appeared as a witness in
20 relation to these events in the case of Ratko Bundalo?
21 A. And Nedjo Zeljaja and Dragan Savic from Trebinje. All of this
22 had to do with what happened in Kalinovik, Djordje Askraba and the
23 policemen, Peric, Doder and Terzic.
24 Q. Thank you, but let's do this one step at a time so that we deal
25 with it properly.
1 A. All right.
2 Q. You testified in the case against Nedjo Zeljaja who at that time
3 was commander of the police station in Kalinovik; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Final judgement was passed in relation to these events?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Ratko Bundalo, you also testified --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Slow down, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And also to make a pause between answer and question
11 and question and answer.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
13 Q. You also testified in the case against Ratko Bundalo and he was
14 also convicted and that decision was final?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also testified in the case against Dordislav Askraba and he
17 was also convicted -- I understand.
18 A. Yes, yes, I did testify in Askraba's case.
19 Q. Thank you. You testified in the case against Krsto Savic as
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As a high police official, he was convicted for all of these
23 things that had happened.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You also testified in the case against the policemen that you
1 mentioned today?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That is, Milan Peric, Spasoje Doder, Predrag Terzic and
4 Aleksandar Cerovina.
5 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I did testify.
6 Q. Do you know that these persons were acquitted?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. I am not going to put any other questions in relation
9 to that then.
10 Now, I'm going to move on to what happened on the 5th of August?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, just for my understanding of your
12 line of questioning, if you ask a witness whether he testified in other
13 cases and whether those persons were acquitted, what is it the Chamber is
14 supposed to conclude from that or to think about that? Do we have to
15 understand that they may have been acquitted on the basis of the
16 testimony of this witness, or that there may have been other evidence?
17 What are we supposed to do with the answers the witness just gave
18 to your questions? Or is it a suggestion that there's something wrong
19 with the witness's testimony because these people were acquitted?
20 Is that your suggestion?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. With
22 all due respect, that is exactly what our aim is.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it is not dealt with in a proper way.
24 Then you should provide us with testimony of the witness. The only thing
25 I want to say is that the way in which you approached this matter does
1 not give any ground whatsoever for the suggestion you make and is even,
2 to some extent, unfair to the witness.
3 Please be aware of that and continue.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we shall do
5 our best to call these witnesses and to bring them into this courtroom.
6 Q. And now I am going to ask you something else.
7 You mentioned the people who put you onto these vehicles, and the
8 explanation provided was that you were being taken to the KP Dom Foca;
9 namely, Elez, Pero and Milenko Vukovic, nicknamed Zeko?
10 A. Yes. However, if I may I'd like to go back to those previous
11 questions. I would not agree that they had all been acquitted. On the
12 basis of my testimony was Peric and Doder only, and the rest were found
13 guilty. Because it seemed here that they had all been acquitted on the
14 basis of what I testified about but they were sentenced to a variety of
15 different prison sentences amounting to 71 years in prison.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if Mr. Stojanovic wants to further address the
17 matter, we'll hear that and then preferably in an appropriate manner, and
18 otherwise he will proceed on other subjects.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. You said that these persons came from Mjehovina?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you tell the Court how far away Mjehovina is from Kalinovik
24 and your village?
25 A. I cannot be very specific but it must be about 15 or 16
1 kilometres between Kalinovik and Miljevina and then since there is a
2 kilometre from Kalinovik to my village, then it is roughly 16 kilometres
3 altogether; that is it my assessment, that is.
4 Q. Am I right if I say that Miljevina does not belong to the
5 municipality of Kalinovik?
6 A. Yes, Miljevina belongs to the municipality of Foca.
7 Q. Do you remember that at that point in time, there was a great
8 deal of fighting at the Rogoj pass and many members of the VRS lost their
9 lives there?
10 A. I heard stories to that effect once I got out of the camp.
11 Q. Do you know how many Serb soldiers were killed then?
12 A. No. But, look, this is what you're trying to link up. The loss
13 of life by a soldier on the front line and -- is one thing and killing a
14 civilian is another thing.
15 Q. What I would like to ask you is the following: The men who were
16 there just before the execution, did they mention what had happened in
18 A. No. Just one evening, Zdravko Visnjevac came and told us that,
19 that some people had killed -- had been killed at Rogoj and that all of
20 us would be killed. And that's what happened.
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber on the basis of the information
22 that you received subsequently when did these things happen at Rogoj?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Tell me, in addition to the names that you mentioned, did you
25 know who the people who participated in this execution were? Were they
1 soldiers? Were they civilians? Were they policemen?
2 A. We were guarded by soldiers and taken out by soldiers, and there
3 was a police vehicle escorting us.
4 Q. One of these persons introduced himself as a Chetnik from Niksic.
5 Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes. He said that he was from Niksic.
7 Q. Will we agree that Niksic is in Montenegro, that it's not in
9 A. Yes, yes. And he also said that they were mercenaries.
10 Q. Apart from that, what he said that is, could you conclude on the
11 basis of anything else that these persons came from Montenegro?
12 A. No. As for the dialect, the way they spoke and when they were
13 asking us to sing different songs, the dialect that they used when
14 speaking was not Montenegrin, it was our Bosnian dialect.
15 Q. You mentioned a name, Tomo Visnjevac. And you said that he spoke
16 about Rogoj.
17 A. It's not Tomo. It's Zdravko.
18 Q. Zdravko Visnjevac. Do you know a name by the name of
19 Todo Visnjevac?
20 A. I know him from Kalinovik. He was a driver at the Kalinovik
21 health centre. And it was Zdravko Visnjevac, nicknamed Sjena, who told
22 us in camp that we would be all be killed.
23 Q. Do you know whether he was a member of the military or the
25 A. When I was free, I saw him wearing a military uniform.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you start giving a good example,
2 then perhaps the witness will follow.
3 Can we take it again from -- I think you asked whether he was a
4 member of the military police. And then a part is missing.
5 Was there anything more specific in your question,
6 Mr. Stojanovic? Is that what you asked: "Do you know if he was a member
7 of the military police."
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It was "military or
9 police" but it is too fast for the court reporters as well to record all
10 of this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, due to your speed of speech parts
12 are missing. I do understand now from the interpreters that your
13 question was:
14 "Do you know if he was a member of the military or the police."
15 And the answer of the witness then was:
16 "When I was free, I saw him wearing a military uniform. "
17 If that reflects question and answer, then you now may proceed,
18 but slowly.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. And, sir, I would like to finish with the questions that I have
21 just received, going back to the part of your proofing that has to do
22 with the arrival of Mr. Mladic.
23 Were you told where it was that Mr. Mladic landed in a
25 A. Bozanovici. Above their houses and the cemetery there, there's a
1 big meadow.
2 Q. Do you know and were you told at whose initiative this meeting
3 took place with the locals from Golubici?
4 A. I was not told. I don't know.
5 Q. Do you know that Mr. Mladic took one of the locals there from
6 Golubici into the helicopter so that he could see the area?
7 A. Yes, that's what I was told as well.
8 Q. And that, on that occasion, he promised him that their request
9 for moving the artillery out would be honoured?
10 A. Yes, that's what they told us and that's the way it was for a few
12 Q. Tell us if you know who this person was who was in the helicopter
13 with Mr. Mladic then?
14 A. I don't know his name. I don't remember his name. I know he is
15 from Golubici, but I cannot say whether it is this or that person.
16 Q. Do you know Milan Mandic?
17 A. Milan Mandic? There are several Milan Mandics in Kalinovik, so I
18 cannot say which Milan this would be.
19 Q. I'm going to conclude by putting a question that has to do with
20 your attitude towards the Mladic family.
21 You said that in relation to all your trials and tribulations,
22 you said that you did not have an opportunity of seeing any of the
23 members of the Mladic family?
24 A. No, no. I mean, there is the Mladic family, I mean, there's also
25 Lalovics and other families that are related to them. But there was not
1 a single one with the last name of Mladic.
2 Q. You did not have an opportunity of hearing from anyone that any
3 of the members of the inner circle of the Mladic family appeared in
4 relation to the events that you are testifying about here?
5 A. I don't know about that, but I just know that he was a member of
6 that army, Dusko Mladic. I did not see him. But he did draw on
7 Mr. Ratko's merits and he sort of figured prominently.
8 Q. But you did not see this person at any point in time when all of
9 this happened?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. Sir, I thank you for your testimony. Also, Mr. Mladic told me to
12 say to you that he is prepared to shake hands with you to offer you his
13 hand at any point in time and to apologise.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, offers for restoring relationships
15 are not part and are not part and parcel of cross-examination of a
16 witness. So this is best dealt with, I would say, out of court, not here
17 in court.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I do
19 understand. Thank you.
20 Q. And thank you to the witness as well.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, any need to re-examine the witness.
24 MS. BIBLES: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And since the Chamber has no questions for you
1 either, Mr. Hadzic, this concludes your testimony.
2 I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
3 The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you
4 by the parties and by the Bench, and you are excused. I wish you a safe
5 trip home again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for the fair attitude
7 towards me as a witness. I thank everybody: The Trial Chamber, the
8 Defence, and the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ORIE: When I earlier said that we would need a break for
12 protective measures for the next witness, I might have been mistaken
13 because the order of the Prosecution witnesses has changed quite
14 recently, I do understand. It is my understanding that Witness RM010 is
15 the next one on your list.
16 Any need for protective measures? Because, until now, I don't
17 think that we received any request for protective measures. Or are there
18 any existing protective measures?
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that witness will be taken by
20 Ms. Silvia D'Ascoli which I take the opportunity to introduce to the
21 Chamber. I'll let her address you on the status of that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli, welcome into the court.
23 Protective measures?
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, pseudonym, voice and image distortion.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Are these protective measures deriving from other
2 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, from the Krajisnik case. That was the first
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll take a break, because, especially
5 voice distortion takes a while to prepare.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you tell us how much time
8 would be needed? We could take this as a second break. We might need
9 another one anyhow.
10 THE REGISTRAR: We would need at least 15 minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes.
12 Then I suggest that we resume at a quarter to 12.00 and that we
13 take another 20-minute break before we adjourn at 2.15.
14 We adjourn until 11.45.
15 --- Recess taken at 11.31 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.50 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, first of all, apologies that the
18 Chamber was, due to internal malcommunication, unfamiliar with the
19 protective measures, but it's clear. The Prosecution always has
20 presented in the appropriate way.
21 Are you ready to call your next witness?
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours. The Prosecution calls RM010.
23 JUDGE ORIE: RM010 could be escorted into the courtroom. But I
24 think we need to have the curtains down first because of face and voice
1 May I emphasise that the parties, whenever any question or answer
2 is at risk to reveal the identity of the witness, that they should ask
3 for private session in order to give proper effect to the protective
4 measures ordered in the previous case.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and, further, everyone is urged to switch off
7 his own microphones when the witness answers the questions.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.
10 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, in the meantime while the witness is brought
11 in, maybe I could indicate to the Chamber the adjudicated facts that the
12 Prosecution will be relying upon for this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness RM010. We'll wait first so
19 that the blinds can be up.
20 Meanwhile, I inform you that before giving evidence you are
21 required to make a solemn declaration, of which the text will be handed
22 out to you by the usher. If you wait for a second until the blinds are
23 up ...
24 Yes. May I invite you to make the solemn declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: RM010
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness RM010. Please be seated.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM010, your testimony is given under
7 protective measures. No one out of this courtroom will see your face, no
8 one will hear your own voice, and we'll not use your own name but will
9 call you Witness RM010.
10 If there would be any question which you think, if answered in
11 accordance with the truth, would reveal your identity, do not hesitate to
12 ask me to go into private session.
13 Is that clear?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is clear. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now first be examined by Ms. D'Ascoli.
16 Ms. D'Ascoli is counsel for the Prosecution.
17 You may proceed.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thanks, Your Honours.
19 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
20 Q. Sir, I will begin by showing you a document which contains some
21 information related to you.
22 Could I please have the pseudonym sheet which is
23 65 ter number 28355.
24 Sir, please look at the information on the screen but do not read
25 aloud any of the information you see.
1 Can you confirm that this is your name and date of birth?
2 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I tender this exhibit -- this 65 ter
4 number into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Under seal, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28355 becomes Exhibit P140, under seal,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P140 is admitted under seal.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 MS. D'ASCOLI:
11 Q. Sir, can you tell us --
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI:
15 Q. Sir, can you tell us which was the size and the ethnicity of your
17 A. The village had about 800 houses and about 75 to 80 per cent were
18 Muslims, and the rest were Serbs.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI:
24 Q. Sir, can you tell us how the relations were between the different
25 ethnicity in your village in the time-period before the conflict in
2 A. There were no differences among the two ethnic ethnicities. We
3 went to school together. We socialised together. We shared our lives.
4 We lived next to each other. There were never any problems.
5 Q. And can you tell us if this changed in 1992?
6 A. Yes. The first obvious changes could be seen in 1991. However,
7 during 1992, those differences intensified in late March and the
8 beginning of April. Things came to a head at the end of May.
9 Q. And can you describe how the situation in your village was in
10 March 1992?
11 A. In the month of March, tensions were not as pronounced. However,
12 check-points started being set up on the hills. They were manned by the
13 local Serbs. There were three or four such locations where the Serbs had
14 their observation posts from which they observed what was going on in our
16 My village is in a valley, so, from those observation posts, they
17 could observe our movements, where we went, and what we did.
18 Q. Sir, you said that check-points started being set up on the
19 hills. Do you remember the exact locations, the names of the location,
20 if you remember?
21 A. Yes. From my house, I could see one of those observation posts
22 at Gologlovo, and on the other side, across the valley from my house,
23 there was another observation point, at Ljunjovo [phoen]. There were a
24 couple more such observation posts that I could not see from my house.
25 Q. And you said that Serbs were manning these check-points. Can you
1 be more specific? Or can you describe who the Serbs were?
2 A. They were exclusively Serbs. In 1993, they were locals, together
3 with the reservists of the then-army. So those posts were manned by a
4 mixed composition of civilians and soldiers. Those soldiers would go to
5 the front line from time to time, and then, when they returned home, they
6 would be put in charge of manning those observation posts, together with
7 the local civilians.
8 Q. Let's move to May 1992. Can you tell us whether there were any
9 changes in the situation in your village?
10 A. At the beginning of May, and even before, in the direction of
11 Sanica on the bridge there was a check-point manned by the reserve forces
12 of the police and active-duty policemen. From that check-point, they
13 controlled the entry and exit from Sanica. At the end of May, after the
14 25th of May, the Muslims who were members of the reserve police were
15 returned from the police station in Sanica because they had not accepted
16 to sign the so-called loyalty oath to the then-police force. On that
17 day, on the 20th [as interpreted] May, a flag of the -- the
18 Republika Srpska was hoisted on the building of the police. They didn't
19 sign that document. They had to return their weapons and uniforms, and
20 they had to go home.
21 From that day on, only the reserve and active-duty policemen who
22 were of Serbian origin continued to man that check-point on the bridge at
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM010, you're speaking very quickly. Could
25 you please slow down so that your words will be translated and that we're
1 not missing a word from your testimony.
2 So try to slow down.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question. I have a question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will do my best.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may also ask a clarifying question, sir.
6 At page 46, line 22, you're translated as having said:
7 "They didn't sign that document."
8 Now that sentence just comes out of the blue after you have been
9 talking about the flag that was hoisted at the police station. Did you
10 talk about a document that was not signed?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. A relative of mine worked at
12 the police.
13 On the 25th of May, he was invited to come to the police station
14 in Sanica, and he was asked to sign a document, to pledge loyalty in
15 order to continue being a member of the police force. And since that
16 document bore the symbol depicting four Ss, and -- and -- and it was a
17 pledge to accept the situation as it was, i.e., that Muslims relinquished
18 all of their rights, he didn't want to sign that document which was a
19 loyalty pledge, and he was sent packing.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: I'll continue.
22 Q. Sir, were both Serbs and Muslims free to pass by -- to move
23 around the village and to pass by these check-points?
24 A. No. From that moment on, from the 25th of May, the check-points
25 at Sanica could be crossed only by women and children. Men were
1 forbidden to move between the villages. It was strictly forbidden for
2 the men to do that.
3 Q. And can you tell us whether any differences would apply
4 depending, based on the ethnicity?
5 A. Well, when I said that there were major differences between the
6 two ethnicities, let me give you an example.
7 Only a day after that, the workers who worked at the local Sanica
8 factory, about 300 of them, on the 26th of May, were sent home. A
9 certain number of villagers from my village were on a bus. When they
10 arrived at the Sanica check-point, every single Muslim was taken off the
11 buses, and they were said that they should proceed on foot. Only the
12 Serbs were allowed to proceed on a bus, and the Muslims were told that
13 they were not allowed to come back to work and not only to their
14 workplace, but also to Sanica as a village, that their place was no
15 longer in Sanica.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It is only now that the translation has finished.
17 So could I again urge you to slow down. I know it's difficult.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI:
19 Q. Sir, did you and the people you know feel safe in those days.
20 A. Of course, I could not feel safe. My movement was restricted. I
21 was under surveillance 24 hours a day from a neighbouring hill. I did
22 not even step out onto a road, which is 150 metres away from my house
23 because I didn't feel safe.
24 Q. Sir, to clarify, when you say that you were under surveillance
25 24 hours a day from a neighbouring hill, do you mean the hill where a
1 check-point was set up?
2 A. Yes, precisely. I was talking about those neighbouring hills
3 where those check-points were.
4 Q. Okay.
8 Q. Sir --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ma'am, could we move into private session for a
11 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI:
10 Q. Sir, I will now move to events of 10 July 1992.
11 Can you tell us what happened on the morning of the 10th of July?
12 And, please, I just want to remind you not to mention any name of your
13 family members as we are in public session.
14 A. On the 10th of July, in the morning, two neighbours came from a
15 different part of the village, and they informed us that all the men aged
16 between 18 and 65 were to go to the end of the village to a meadow there
17 and to wait further instructions.
18 As we were passing through the village, I noticed perhaps a dozen
19 soldiers who were lurking from behind the trees. When we arrived at that
20 meadow, what we found there, or who we found there was a company
21 commander, his deputy and the communications man.
22 When we all gathered in that area, in that part of the meadow,
23 from the neighbouring thickets and from behind the hedges some 30 more
24 soldiers stepped out.
25 Q. Sir, can you describe the uniforms that these soldiers were
2 A. Those were mostly olive-drab uniforms, and here and there there
3 was also a camouflage uniform. And I believe that all of them sported
4 some insignia or some bands tied around their right-hand shoulder. They
5 ordered us to line up in a column, in twos.
6 Q. And do you remember which insignia you saw? Or could you
7 describe them?
8 A. I said that those were mostly some epaulettes, some ribbons
9 around their shoulders. The person who was in charge had some insignia
10 on his chest and so did his deputy. And the others sported different
11 things on the right shoulder, a two-headed eagle, for example. Some had
12 four S's on their hats. There were all sorts of insignia and things like
13 that that I really can't remember as I sit here today.
14 Q. Did the soldier say anything or explain the reasons why you were
15 gathered there in the meadow?
16 A. Yes. When we were lined up in that meadow, the deputy commander
17 stepped out, and he told us that he -- that we would be interviewed, that
18 we would be taken in front of the elementary school in Biljani. And
19 whoever was not on a list would be returned home. Those who were found
20 on that list would be taken to the police station in Kljuc. And he also
21 told us on that occasion that those under 18 and those who were above 60
22 could go home straight away.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, I just want to ask a question.
24 Sir, did you know of what organisation these insignia that you
25 saw on the uniforms belonged?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, those belonged to the reserve
2 army of the then-Republika Srpska mostly.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can we move into private session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI:
21 Q. Sir, can you tell us if you were brought to any other place from
22 the meadow?
23 A. A column of us set off in the direction of the school, a column
24 in which we were lined up two by two. We headed towards the school. We
25 covered about 500 metres. When we arrived in front of the school --
1 well, along the way, in fact, we saw an increasing number of soldiers
2 from what was the reserve force at the time. And when we arrived in
3 front of the school itself, I saw that the military police with these
4 white belts were in front of the school. I could see quite clearly that
5 they were putting their belts on. They were getting dressed. They were
6 also putting their gloves on. And then just above them, under a tree,
7 the -- I could see the company commander who had approached the tree and
8 greeted four, five men there. And when these members of the police force
9 saw us, one of them shouted out, Look at these good soldiers. Another
10 one cursed us and said, Why are your hands behind your backs? Put your
11 hands on your head and bow your heads. We entered the school two by two
12 or three by three. And in the corridor they, first of all, searched us
13 and then made us lean against the walls, place our hands against the
14 walls or on the walls and they searched us again to see whether we had
15 any items on us. Then they took us into a classroom. There was a
16 policeman there who told us that we should sit down.
17 Q. Let me interrupt you for a second, sir. Was anything take from
18 you? You said that you were searched together with the other people with
20 A. They couldn't take anything from me at that point in time because
21 I was only wearing a track suit. But I saw in front of me and behind me
22 that the people had to empty all their pockets, put their belongings on
23 the floor, and whatever they would find, they would take.
24 On the whole, the items they found consisted of money, and they
25 would throw the personnel papers of various individuals onto the floor.
1 Q. And did you see if anything happened to these personal items and
2 money and papers that were gathered on the floor, if the Serbs did
3 anything with these items?
4 A. As I have said, they took the money they found. The personal
5 papers remained on the ground, and I didn't notice what was done to them,
6 or with them.
7 Q. Sir, can you give us an estimate of how many people were gathered
8 in the school, according to your recollection?
9 A. There were about 60 of us from my hamlet and then there were
10 people from other hamlets. I think that there were between 150 and 170
11 people, in total, in the school.
12 Q. And you said you were brought into a classroom. Can you give us
13 an estimate of the number of people that were with you in that classroom?
14 A. I think that there were about 80 people in that classroom.
15 Q. What happened once you were brought into this classroom?
16 A. For the first ten or 15 minutes, nothing happened. And ten
17 minutes later, a reserve policeman appeared with a colleague of his, and
18 they started compiling a list in our classroom. They went from man to
19 man, from person to person, and this took about 15 to 20 minutes. And
20 once they had completed their work, they left the room. And shortly
21 afterwards, a soldier entered the room and read out about ten names from
22 a list. He wanted to check to see whether these people were in the
23 classroom. Nine of the ten names read out were in the classroom, and
24 they identified themselves. That soldier then left. And five or ten
25 minutes later, some sort of soldier appeared from the corridor. First,
1 he read out one person's name, and they then took that person away --
2 Q. [Previous translation continued] ...
3 A. -- and this continued in such a manner every three or four
4 minutes, I can't be certain --
5 Q. I want to go back to some parts of your answer.
6 You said that a reserve policeman appeared and -- together with a
7 colleague and they started compiling a list. They made a list of what in
8 this classroom?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And this list, what was the content of this list; if you know?
11 A. Well, it was a list of all the people who were sitting in the
12 classroom. The names of all of us had to be written down in the list,
13 including the names of our parents, and our dates of birth also had to be
15 Q. Sir, I want to show you a document.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have 65 ter number 17366.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this comes up, I would like to ask you for
18 a clarification.
19 These two policemen compiling a list - reserve policemen you
20 called them - how do you know that they were reserve policemen?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that very well because they
22 were neighbours. One of them worked for the TV service company. Before
23 the events he repaired televisions in the village. The other person was
24 also a neighbour from a neighbouring hamlet who worked in a factory in
25 Sanica. So they weren't members of the regular police force.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did they wear uniforms?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were wearing dark blue
3 uniforms, pale blue uniforms. I'm not certain.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And later on there was a soldier in the
5 classroom, calling some of the people out of the classroom; is that
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct that throughout that
8 period of time, there was a soldier at the door, but a soldier appeared
9 from outside, and he had some pieces of paper in his hand and called out
10 the names of certain people.
11 Perhaps I haven't already mentioned this fact in relation to the
12 soldier --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You did. I just wanted to know was this soldier
14 in uniform and what kind of uniform.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I think he was wearing a
16 camouflage uniform.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which colour?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, green and grey and white.
19 Something like that. It was a camouflage uniform.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI:
22 Q. Sir, can you see the document on the screen? This is a list of
23 76 persons.
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. And, sir, please look at the document, and I will remind you not
1 to mention any names that could reveal your identity.
2 Do you recognise this document? Have you seen it before?
3 A. Yes. I think have already seen this document. I think that I
4 saw it in a previous case.
5 Q. This document is in Cyrillic. Do you understand the Cyrillic
6 script, sir?
7 A. I can read printed Cyrillic, but I find it a little more
8 difficult to read handwritten Cyrillic.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: If we can move into private sessions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think we still are in private session, or ... no,
11 we are not.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 1887-1888 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Ms. D'Ascoli.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I tender the 65 ter 17366 into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, I take it?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I --
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17366 becomes Exhibit P141,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. P141 is admitted, under
25 seal ...
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI:
4 Q. Sir, I want to show you another document, and this is
5 65 ter 17367.
6 Sir, this is a list of 125 names. Do you recognise this
8 JUDGE ORIE: This document not to be shown to the public.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I have already seen this
10 document. I think I saw it in the -- another case.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI:
12 Q. And did you have a chance of reviewing the names on this list?
13 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to have a look at the document.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: If we can go into private session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 1891 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI:
7 Q. Sir, do you know what happened to the people whose name are on
8 this list?
9 A. All those names, all these people were either killed that day or
10 on some other day, because in 1996, their bodies were exhumed at the
11 sites where they had been buried.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I tender the 65 ter 17367 into
13 evidence, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
15 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17367 becomes Exhibit P142,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P142 is admitted under seal.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: I think this might be a good time for the break,
21 if we want to take it at this stage.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had, on my mind, in five minutes from now,
23 but this is okay as well. Then we will resume at ten minutes past 1.00
24 and then continue until quarter past 2.00.
25 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom, once the
1 curtains are down.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, in view of your estimate of the time
4 you would need, may I take it that you'll be able to conclude your
5 examination-in-chief in the next session?
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes
8 past 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.52 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 And, at the same time, the curtains pulled down.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness RM010.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli will continue her examination-in-chief.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Sir, I want to go back to what happened in the classroom.
20 In one of your previous answers today - this is page 56 of
21 today's transcript - you mentioned that the first group of people who
22 were called out, it was a group of nine to ten people, and you already
23 described to the Chamber the soldier who came and -- to -- to call out
24 these people.
25 Do you remember the names of the people who were called out in
1 the first group?
2 A. Yes. I remember more than half of them now. I can give you
3 their names.
4 Q. Yes -- sorry. Yes, please. If you remember their names, just
5 their names ...
6 A. Omer Dervisevic, Smajo Mujazinovic, Ferahim Cehic, Elvir Cehic
7 and Jasmin Cehic, Ale Cahic, Smajo Avdic, Habir Avdic. I couldn't
8 remember any more, although I think there is someone else there.
9 Q. Did you hear from where you were in the classroom, did you hear
10 or did you see anything after outside -- happening outside of the school
11 after this man left the classroom? And could you also tell us the
12 position in which you were in the classroom?
13 A. I sat in the row by the window. At the moment when they were
14 calling out the names one by one from the school, when the first few
15 people were taken out, nothing could be heard except for some sporadic
16 gun-fire, but when it was the turn of the fourth or fifth one, there was
17 more intensive shooting above the school. And it was ever more frequent
18 as well. One of the soldiers who was at the entrance into the classroom
19 said, Don't you worry. It's the Green Berets that are attacking. We are
20 going to send our patrol out, and they're going to resolve that quickly.
21 You are safe.
22 Q. Were other groups of people called out after the first one
23 comprising these nine to ten people?
24 A. After about ten minutes -- actually, in the meantime, while our
25 names were being written down in the classrooms, I personally saw the
1 following through the window. Two buses got into the school-yard.
2 Sana Rops [phoen] buses. That was a local bus company and then they
3 parked there. After ten minutes, actually ten minutes after the last
4 roll-call, a policeman came and said that now five of us should be going
5 out into the corridor and that we would be taken to the bus from there.
6 And that's when it started.
7 Then people started leaving in groups of five and --
8 Q. Please continue. I just have a question to clarify a little --
9 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI:
12 Q. Okay. Before -- before we continue, can you just tell us whether
13 you could see -- whether these buses were full or empty?
14 A. The buses were empty when they arrived in front of the school in
16 Q. Sir, you were also called in a group at some point. Can you
17 describe for us what happened?
18 A. Yes. Before my turn came, one of the persons in the classroom,
19 Osman Avdic, saw through the window certain people being killed. And at
20 that moment, he shouted, They're going to kill all of us. Let's go to
21 the buses. There was a bit of panic in the classroom.
22 The man who stood by the entrance by the door issued the
23 following order: He said that all elderly people, that is to say, over
24 50, should withdraw to the back of the classroom and all the younger ones
25 should come close to the door.
1 Soon after that my turn came, and together with five neighbours I
2 left the classroom and went into the school corridor, and we set out
3 towards the entrance door.
4 At the door --
5 Q. I'll interrupt you for a second. On the basis of what you
6 observed and heard while you were in the classroom, what do you think was
7 happening to those people that were called out in -- in -- in the groups
8 preceding yours?
9 A. It was already in the classroom that we heard people being beaten
10 and crying out. Then there was shooting that was heard as well. I
11 personally saw one of the soldiers who were outside take five men to the
12 houses below the school and then he returned by himself.
13 Q. [Previous translation continued] ...
14 A. After that, I've already said.
15 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
16 Q. From --
17 Could you, again, speak more slowly and could you take a short
18 break after the witness has finished his answer.
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: I will, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI:
22 Q. Sir, you said you personally saw one of the soldier who were
23 outside take five men to the houses below the school. From where did you
24 observe this?
25 A. I observe this from the desk where I was in the classroom. As I
1 was sitting there, I saw the lower part of the school all the time, that
2 is to say, the asphalt road in front of the school and part of the yard.
3 There were quite a few policemen there, and I even saw some of the buses
4 from the school.
5 Q. Those -- those nine to ten people that you mentioned as the first
6 ones that were taken out of the classroom, have you ever seen them again
7 ever since?
8 A. No. On the contrary, I never saw them alive again.
9 Q. Can you please continue and tell us what happened to you and the
10 group of people you were together, you were with, once you left the
23 As I went downstairs only 3 or 4 metres after that, I saw a
24 familiar face, a Serb, a special police. Since I knew him, I looked him
25 straight in the eye, and he looked at me too, and he turned away from me
1 and I thought, All right, he recognised me now and now he is going to say
2 to these other ones downstairs, Don't beat him, he is my colleague.
3 When I came to him, he turned around, he punched me in the
4 stomach and kicked me in the stomach and then I understood that I had to
5 pass through this area by these ten soldiers as fast as I could. I was
6 beaten all the way to the bus, and when I got to the bus itself, one of
7 the policemen bent me over the knee and said, Do you want to go and sit
8 down? While he asked me that, about ten people or so beat me on the back
9 and on the head. I felt that. After a minute or even less, he let me
10 get into the bus and begging your pardon, he hit me in the behind. He
11 told me to sit down on the floor and go all the way to the end of the
13 Q. Okay. Yes, please remember to slow down in your answers.
14 Sir, just to clarify. You said that on your way out of the
15 classroom, you were beaten by a policeman -- well, first by a
16 special police, and, later, when boarding the bus by policemen.
17 Can you describe the uniforms that these people were wearing; if
18 you remember?
19 A. Special police? I know it was military police, because, for the
20 most part, they had camouflage uniforms and white belts; while the other
21 soldiers, for the most part, had olive-green-grey uniforms, or some of
22 these soldiers would have camouflage uniforms.
23 Q. Once you were on the bus, did you see who was driving the bus?
24 A. In the first moment, I did not see the driver because the driver
25 was not actually there. Once we set out to Kljuc, that is to say, once
1 we left the yard, when the driver got onto the bus, he first shouted, I
2 won't be able to make it to Kljuc. My tires are flat. Then I lifted my
3 head a bit. I recognised the driver. I know he was a Serb. He wore
4 civilian clothes. I cannot remember his name. While I was in school in
5 Kljuc, he's the same person who drove me on a bus to Kljuc.
6 Q. Can you say -- can you tell us what happened once the bus -- once
7 you were on the bus and the -- the driver realised that he could not move
9 A. Well, as we were getting onto the bus, I was among the first to
10 sit down on the floor. On the bus, there were already 45 or 50 seats
11 that had been filled. So by the time the bus was being boarded, only
12 about 20 more persons could sit on the floor. I was sitting near the
13 backdoor of the bus so I could clearly see the school, the entrance into
14 the school. And also the linden tree under which the commanders of these
15 units - probably - were standing, and I remember very well that --
16 Q. Let me interrupt you for a second.
17 So on the basis of this observation you just made on the number
18 of seats and the person that were sitting on the floor, can you tell
19 us -- can you give us an estimate of how many people were in that bus?
20 A. Well, I think I've already said 70 to 75 persons.
21 Q. In the bus; right?
22 A. In the bus, yes.
23 Q. Okay. Can you now tell us how you ended up getting off the bus?
24 A. Well, as I was saying, the bus had just left, and 10 or 15 metres
25 on - in the yard, that is - the driver stopped and a policeman, a
1 military policeman with a white belt boarded the bus and asked for four
2 strong, big men. He said that he needed them for something.
3 At that moment while he was saying that, I lifted my head a bit
4 to take a look, and he was taking four men out. I recognised two out of
5 the four. Then they got out --
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can we move into private session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We -- we move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 1901 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI:
9 Q. Let's continue with what you were telling the Court about what
10 happened when you got off the bus.
11 A. When getting off the bus, I think I was the second one in line,
12 and as I was getting to the other bus about 10 metres away, I wanted to
13 board the other bus, but a policeman at the door said, No, you're going
14 to the backdoor.
15 Since I was already on the first step, others passed by me, and
16 when I returned to follow them, I was the last one in line. When we
17 passed the last door of the bus, I didn't understand where it was that
18 they were taking us. However, only 5 or 10 metres after that, when they
19 took us behind a house, going towards the meadow behind the house, the
20 first ones stopped and shouted, My goodness, what is that?
21 At that moment I didn't see anything, but I felt --
22 Q. Before you continue, you said that "they were taking us."
23 Can you tell us who was taking you towards the -- toward this is
24 house? And if can you describe their clothing.
25 A. It was camouflage uniforms, policemen of the special police from
1 Kljuc, because they had white belts. There were two of them.
2 Q. Were these on the bus with you, or did they arrive when the bus
4 A. I think that they arrived when the bus stopped.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether you were held at gunpoint or anything --
6 the circumstances in which you were escorted out of the bus?
7 A. Well, all the time, they had guns held against us. I mean, we
8 were held at gunpoint all the time, and they would use their rifles to
9 show us which way we should go, and also they pushed us with these
11 Q. Can you please continue with -- with the -- with your account and
12 tell us what happened after you were pushed towards the house.
13 A. When they stopped, I felt a rifle barrel in the back, and I heard
14 this person shouting, cursing our Balija mothers and telling us to go
15 ahead. I felt that they were going a bit faster, the people in front of
16 me. When my turn came I saw four bodies lying in front of my feet, lying
17 in the grass.
18 When I saw that, I was a bit panic-stricken, and I looked up.
19 One of us ran to the right and started running away, and I, together with
20 my neighbour -- actually, he went right and we went left. And we didn't
21 manage to move away 5 or 6 metres when I heard the same shout again, Do
22 not run away. And again they cursed our Balija mothers.
23 We were 7 or 8 metres away from each other. I mean, all five of
24 us. So we were all within the range of 7 or 8 metres, and they
25 immediately started shooting. I was a bit in front of Besim. However,
1 as the shooting started, I saw Besim fall in front of me with two
2 enormous holes in his back. And he was soaked in blood. At that moment,
3 I didn't even know what was happening to me. Quite simply, my legs gave
4 way and I fell. I realised that he was loading his gun again and firing
5 another clip of 30 bullets.
6 Again, he loaded his rifle, fired, and there was a bit of a wait.
7 You could only hear these people dying, my neighbours. But Rufat, who
8 was to my right, still showed some signs of life.
9 In the meantime, a voice was heard from the road, Hurry up, you
10 guys. We're going to the Kljuc. One of these men who were down here
11 said, The one on the right in the multi-coloured T-shirt is still alive.
12 Kill him. And he fired another burst and they left.
13 I lay there without moving all the time.
14 Q. Sir, for how long did you remain there on the ground?
15 A. I may have been there for up to an hour. However, I didn't dare
16 leave that place immediately because I could hear shots coming from
17 nearby, and I could hear the voices of various soldiers who were not from
19 At one point in time, they came closer to that house because in
20 that house there was a pub or a cafe. They started entering the house,
21 looking for drinks, asking for drinks. A few of them were passing by the
22 house, and when they saw us lying there, they would call to the others
23 and they would say, Come here and see. There're a few more dead here.
24 Some would approach to look at us and the other would say, I've had
25 enough for one day. And then they would stay there, they would remain
1 there talking for half an hour or so.
2 Q. And you -- you're referring to these events and these things that
3 you heard while you were lying on the floor.
4 You said:
5 "They came closer, they started entering the house."
6 Can you tell us who you are referring to with "they"?
7 A. They were soldiers, those soldiers who had brought us in. The
8 fact is that 80 per cent of those who did that were our local neighbours.
9 They had brought us in. And I suppose that when the bus left with the
10 special police from Kljuc, they started dispersing. They started walking
11 back to their homes because I suppose that they had done their business
12 for the day.
13 Q. Sir, can you tell us how did you eventually escape from that
14 position when you were lying on the floor, pretending to be dead?
15 A. I've already told you that I can't tell you exactly how many
16 minutes I stayed there. I must have been there for over half an hour,
17 perhaps even a whole hour. And then when the soldiers left, and before
18 that, I could hear their voices. All of a sudden, I sensed that there
19 was nobody close to the house on the left and on the right. I started
20 crawling towards the forest.
21 Q. And is -- is the forest a place where you eventually escaped --
22 escaped from the place where you were lying?
23 A. Yes. I managed to turn around just for a brief moment and look
24 behind me. I saw those bodies that were not moving, and I could actually
25 see my own trace from the place where I had been before.
1 I panicked. A returned a little to lift the blades of grass a
2 little because I thought maybe if they returned, they would realise that
3 somebody had been there and all of a sudden that person is gone.
4 So at that moment I realised that I had to hurry up and try and
5 reach the nearby forest where I could hide behind a tree.
6 Q. Sir, can you give us an estimate of how many people were killed
7 on that day in your village?
15 Q. So would the number 100 people that you gave us, would that refer
16 to people killed overall on that day or in the school?
17 A. Nobody was killed in the school. They were killed around the
19 Q. Somewhere around the school.
20 A. Yes, okay. Okay. Around the school.
21 Q. So when you referred to 100 is an estimate of people killed in
22 the area of the school?
23 A. I said 150, not 100.
24 Q. Okay. Thanks to clarify that.
25 And in addition to these 150, you said that there were about
1 another 70 people that had been taken away on buses; right?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. People who stayed behind were all on the
3 buses. Later on, I heard stories to the effect that the villagers of
4 Pudin Han, which is a village some 7 to 8 kilometres away from Biljani,
5 saw two busloads of people with their hands on their heads being taken to
6 Kljuc and they saw them being brought to the Kljuc elementary school.
7 That's where they were put up on the first day after they had been
8 brought to Kljuc.
9 Q. Sir, do you know if they -- they ever found the bodies of the
10 people who were killed in your village on that day or around in the area?
11 A. Yes. In 1996, they were found in three different localities: In
12 two places in the red soil, 15 people at each of the places, and in
13 Laniste, the bottomless pit, about 200 people altogether.
14 Q. Were you present at the exhumations when they were -- when these
15 bodies were found?
16 A. Yes. I believe that that was towards the end of 1996.
17 Q. Can you tell us the names of the location that you -- or the
18 places the exhumations that you attended?
19 A. At Crvena Zemija, or red earth locality 2, and Laniste, the
20 bottomless pit. I was at both places. I did not attend the exhumations
21 that took place in the third location.
22 Q. Okay. So you attended two of the three exhumations: The one in
23 Laniste and the one in the red earth, I believe. Yes, that's
24 Crvena Zemija; right?
25 A. Yes, correct. I forgot to tell you something else. Some ten or
1 15 bodies were found above the school and above the houses around the
2 school because they had not been collected in 1992. The local population
3 that stayed behind in Biljani found the bodies and as they kept on
4 finding them, they buried them in the local cemetery.
5 When they were found in 1996, they were exhumed, and then they
6 were reburied and their remains are today where they are.
7 Q. Sir, now I would like to show you some clips.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I first have the 65 ter 22477A.
9 Can this be played, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, this is a video dated 11 October 1996. The video is taken
13 from a larger video showing exhumation at different mass graves. And the
14 minutes we just saw were just some excerpts from the overall video from a
15 minute 002725 [sic] to 002710. I want to ask you, sir -- 2625, yes, to
16 2710. Thank you.
17 Sir, I wanted to ask you if you recognised this location?
18 A. Yes. I believe that the video was taken at the red earth
19 location, or Crvena Zemlja.
20 Q. And you said this is one of the exhumations that you attended;
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Sir, does the video-clip fairly depict what you saw and is it
24 consistent with your recollection of what you saw there on the sight of
25 the exhumations?
1 A. Yes, everything is correct. And, yes, the name of the location
2 is Crvena Zemlja.
3 Q. And I take it the part we saw is when they were actually exhuming
4 the bodies; right?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I tender this video into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, we find on the Prosecution's exhibit
8 list which was presented to us as a description of 22477A, video showing
9 the exhumation of mass grave Laniste 1, undated.
10 Now, we heard the witness say that this was the red earth. Is
11 that an earlier -- I think he made a distinction between the two
12 locations. That's one.
13 Second, you give us a date, a date which, by the way, we see as a
14 date on the video. So we are a bit puzzled about what your position is
15 in this respect, apart from whether these kind of things are not by far
16 better presented through documentary or just video evidence. But the
17 witness seems not to confirm what you say this video is about. And
18 that's the reason why we are asking ourselves what the -- unless you say
19 Laniste is the same. But we didn't get the impression.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: No, Your Honours.
21 This video is an hour-and-a-half-long video and it shows both
22 mass graves. It shows that the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm looking at 22477A - that's how you
24 announced it - which is a clip which lasts for 45 seconds. So -- and you
25 asked this witness about this clip.
1 Apparently the witness wants to say something which is fine, as
2 far as I'm concerned.
3 Witness RM010, you apparently would like to say something.
4 Please do so.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Since I attended two
6 exhumations, I'm very familiar with the places. Laniste is a pit, is a
7 bottomless pit. And that exhumation was carried out at a depth of
8 20 metres. When exhumations are done in a pit, you have to pull out the
9 bodies from a very deep pit and the visibility is not good there.
10 I know that the clip that I saw was taken at Crvena Zemlja, the
11 red earth, and the difference -- or the distance between these two
12 localities is about 10 kilometres. So the red earth is one locality; and
13 Laniste, or the so-called bottomless pit, is the other locality.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, if I can clarify.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You started speaking before the answer of the
16 witness was translated.
17 Could you please repeat what you just said, Ms. D'Ascoli.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: I was asking if can I clarify and answer your
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: The description of the exhibit is the description
22 of 65 ter 22477, which refers to the totality of the video and which has
23 that description because the main part of the video depicted is in fact
24 the exhumation at Laniste.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI: Now --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, you say this is the description
3 of the whole of the video. Now I do understand that the whole of the
4 video is 22477. What I just read was not the description of the whole
5 video but what I find on -- I think it comes from the Prosecution, dated
6 the 29th of August, 2012; that is, today. I find a description for a
7 small portion, and that's the one I referred to - that is, 22477A -
8 reading: Video showing the exhumation of mass grave Laniste 1 (Laniste)
9 undated, 0026 minutes, 25 seconds, to 0027 minutes, 10 seconds.
10 So if you say this is the description of 22477, I find it as a
11 description of 22477A.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, the same description was carried out on
13 the -- on the clips taken from this video. But it should be amended
14 to -- to describe specifically that -- that portion of the video that we
15 just saw, which doesn't show Laniste one but shows the other -- the other
16 mass graves, the red earth.
17 JUDGE ORIE: At least the description is inaccurate.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You tender it into evidence and apparently under
20 another description.
21 Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing in mind
23 your remark and the fact that the factual description and the witness's
24 testimony will be modified, I don't see any need for any objections.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number of 22477A would be ...
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P143, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed, Ms. D'Ascoli.
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Q. Sir, I will show you another clip.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can 65 ter 22477E be displayed -- be played,
8 JUDGE ORIE: What is your present description of that video,
9 Ms. D'Ascoli? Also the one the witness just gave or ...
10 MS. D'ASCOLI: In this case, the description is correct. If not
11 for --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness is not aware of the
13 description, and perhaps it's better that he is not aware.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: If not, for the undated in brackets because the
15 date appears, we will see, on the video.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Could the video-clip be played.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: And this video is dated, as we saw, the
20 6th of November, 1996, and it is precisely minutes 1 hour, 11 minutes and
21 52 seconds to 1 hour, 12 minutes and 20 seconds of the main video marked
22 with 65 ter 22477.
23 Q. Sir, do you recognise the location that was just showed in the
25 A. Yes. This is Laniste or the so-called Bezdana, the bottomless
2 Q. And can you describe what we just saw in the video. At which
3 stage of the works of the exhumations this pit is?
4 A. Well, after having watched the clip, I believe that they were
5 halfway through the exhumations, because you can't see the pit itself.
6 You can't see the bodies being pulled out. But you can clearly see the
7 50 bodies that had been pulled out earlier on that day, or perhaps even
8 the day before. You can see those bodies neatly lined up next to each
10 Q. And you were present when these bodies were exhumed from Laniste
11 and when they were lined up on the street?
12 A. Yes. The exhumation itself went on for some ten, 15 days.
13 Because the Laniste locality, as I have already told you, is a very deep
14 pit. Perhaps 20 metres deep. And, at first, some people were killed
15 there and thrown into the pit and then some ten truck-loads of earth were
16 thrown onto them. And then some new people were killed there and thrown
17 over that layer of earth. And then the pit was totally filled in.
18 So when we were exhuming those bodies, we had to lift and extract
19 tonnes upon tonnes of the earth first in order to be able to reach all
20 those bodies. That's why the exhumation went on for, perhaps, even 15
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22477E into
23 evidence, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
25 Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: 22477E becomes Exhibit P144, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P144 is admitted into evidence.
3 Ms. D'Ascoli, I'm looking at the clock. We have five minutes
4 left and I need one or one and a half minutes to instruct the witness.
5 MS. D'ASCOLI: I will -- I will conclude shortly, Your Honours.
6 Q. Sir, were these bodies ever brought back to the village of -- to
7 your village?
15 Q. Sir, and this is my last question. Can I ask you what the
16 physical or psychological consequences, if any, did you -- do you still
17 suffer as a consequence of what you endured in July 1992?
18 A. To be honest, it's very difficult to say anything. I did not
19 sleep for months after the event. On a number of occasions, I prayed to
20 Allah, asking me why he had taken -- him not taken to me together with
21 the others to spare me from suffering.
22 After that, I spent sleepless nights, especially in autumn and
23 early spring. I frequently go to see doctors to help me, and I curse
24 everybody who throws even a small cracker behind me, because when I don't
25 know that there would be a bang, a loud bang, my knees turn to rubber.
1 My legs give in. I can't stand. My nerves are weak. I lose my temper.
2 I have become very short-tempered. But I live as best as I can. I don't
3 have a choice, do I?
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I don't have further questions.
5 However, I would like to raise a matter in private session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First, I would have one additional question
7 for the witness.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM010, you told us how you suffered, but do
10 you have any physical remaining problems?
11 A. No, I don't suffer any physical pain. I suffer mental,
12 psychological pain more than physical.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness RM010.
14 Ms. D'Ascoli, we have to finish really sharp today for reasons
15 that were given to me.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: I can --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has a question. Is the matter so
18 urgent that you would --
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: I can discuss it tomorrow.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has a question for you.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sir -- Mr. RM010, somewhere in your testimony at
24 page 76, lines 6 to 13, you were describing the shooting that took place
25 and telling us about you seeing Besim fall in front of you. And then you
1 mentioned that quite simply your legs gave way and you fell. Are you
2 able to tell us what made your legs to give way and caused you to fall?
3 A. First of all, I did not even tell you one-third to describe
4 everything that went on, on that day.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that.
6 A. Second of all, I never --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you. Just tell us what made your
8 legs give way and caused you to fall. Forget about the two-thirds that
9 you didn't tell us. Just answer that question.
10 A. I never liked blood. Every time I saw blood, I felt sick.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were not injured?
12 A. No, I was not.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn for the day, Witness RM010. I
15 first would like to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate
16 in any way with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony
17 given already today, or whether that's testimony still to be given
18 tomorrow, because we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in
19 this same courtroom.
20 Once the curtains are down, you may leave the courtroom, follow
21 the usher, but wait until the curtains are down.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Although the curtains are down, we are still in open
1 We'll adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday,
2 the 30th of August, at 9.30 a.m., in this same courtroom.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of
5 August, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.